#47 Impact Master Irving Amukasa: From Kenyan Public Schools to Tech Entrepreneurship Excellence #africa #education #technology #entrepreneurship #inspiration

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Thank you so much.
It's me again, michael Kemadi,hosting Impact Masters podcast,
in collaboration with Africa'sTalking Retail Podcast, coming

(00:25):
to you live this beautifulevening, and today we have a
wonderful guest.
Before we start, hit subscribebutton and notification bell on
YouTube and on iTunes or ourApple podcast, you'll find us as

(00:47):
Africa stalking return podcasts, impact masters podcasts,
google podcast.
You'll find us as the samenames Amazon music.
Come on, start the podcasthosts.
Show some love.

(01:12):
We are showcasing impact mastersacross Africa, people who are
making a change using tech,movers and shakers in tech.
And today we have a wonderful,wonderful guest.
You're going to enjoy this onewe have Iving Amukasa.
Iving Amukasa is passionateabout our technology, especially

(01:42):
our mobile technology, andbetter the way we live, learn
and interact.
This guy is so brief as itcomes, but when you meet him
he's full of energy.
I knew him, I think, 10 yearsago.
He's been doing amazing stuff.
He's the builder of Sophie Bots, he's good in Android,

(02:05):
passionate about AI and bots,and he describes himself as a
developer, tech, entrepreneur.
How are you, mkasa?

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Shukran, thanks for having me.
Thanks for the introduction.
I was nice, but then I'm better.
I'm better now.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
So in this podcast, you believe that we cannot tell
an African man's story withoutgetting to know who he is.
The best way to know whosomeone is in Africa is just
actually talking with them andunderstanding who they are.
And for us here, we take it allthe way back.
Where did it all start?

(02:40):
Where did Amukasa start?
Oh, hey, twanze, twanze,shirotsama, twanze Nairobi.
Okay, where were you born?
Did it all start?
Where did Amukasa start?

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Oh, hey, but we'll start in Nairobi.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, where were you?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
born.
I was born in Nairobi AvenueNursing Home.
I grew up in Isili for most ofmy life, I grew up in Isili,
yeah, but then I've lived inIsili, I've lived in Mombasa, ah
nice, yeah.
And then, you know, after highschool, I used to spend a couple
of my holidays up country,because I was in Zanyanza, okay,

(03:10):
I was in Maseno Karim.
So yeah, I've lived acrossKenya.
Kenya from.
Isili Nairobi from Mombasa toKizingu, Hamjambo and around
Maseno and Ushago U.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
That is interesting because now that gives me a
different perspective of a mkasaand I want us to go step by
step.
So assuming I just want to livethat life that you lived with
you, right?
So you were born in Islay,which part in Islay?

Speaker 2 (03:40):
It's section three.
There's a place called Sun City.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Sun City.
Funny enough I still vote there.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
You're so attached to Isili.
I still vote for Isili, soIsili is section 3.
That is.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Stare right no it's Kamukunji Kamukunji.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
I still vote there.
Isili High School.
I still vote there.
It's still high school.
Bigger school is high school,but then I used to go to school
in Bahati.
We used to go to Mirimakilet.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
That is class 1 to class 8.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Class 1 to class 5.
So.
Mirimakilet and then we used togo to Kimathi.
Funny story about this.
Like you never expect like apublic school to have a swimming
pool in Nairobi, but then likeone of the weird, like one of
the before, like free educationit was good, but then like
services should have kept aNairobi primary, like one of the

(04:41):
three public schools thatactually had a swimming pool in
the compound, so it was reallynice for that class.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Class five so you went there for a swimming pool.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
No, that was the funniest thing, that was the
thing I remember Like a complabcame in later and that's what.
Like picked up my interest forcomputers, but then that was the
thing that like stuck into mymind because imagine like
leaving.
Then the time I'm in Mombasaand we had to like yeah, our
school didn't.
We had to go to the schoolacross to swim, like we had like
a week every day so you guys,you schooled in Bahati from

(05:14):
class 1, class 5 right yeah, sothen you guys moved to Mombasa.
I moved to Mombasa, lived with acouple of cousins of mine in
Mombasa.
There I was in a school calledPresbyterian.
So across Presbyterian there'sa Catholic school right across
Presbyterian that we go to.
So it's stuck in my mind howcan a public school have that

(05:36):
many resources while privateschools?
In Mombasa is the swimmingcapital of the world of Kenya,
but there you don't find suchamenities.
So it's a thing that struck inmy mind that if investment is
made in public institutions,kids can have the best services
ever.
You don't have to pay, even atprimary school level.

(05:56):
You don't have to pay at apremium so that your kid has the
best services.
It's still in my mind oh nice,that's, that's fantastic.
I wish my primary school had asingle man.
It could be the best for forour public schools they call
public schools in canada shouldhave something like the least I

(06:17):
have a computer lab at least.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Those two, yeah, the mostimportant food.
What are?

Speaker 2 (06:22):
our food uh food for people, our friends at food for
education.
That is food, food for people,a friend, that food for
education.
What is the idea?
What is the idea for?

Speaker 1 (06:29):
20 bobos.
Is it 20 bobos or 5 bobos?

Speaker 2 (06:31):
20 bobos, which is which is reasonable.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, we need to get that, yeah, yeah so any other
memory for your lower primaryschool?

Speaker 2 (06:39):
yeah, okay.
So again, I think it goes backto the no, is it no?
So Again, I think it goes backto the no, is it no?
So yeah, it goes to my mom andthat's all like it's to know me.
So I was taught as an early agelike there's nothing I can't do
, because there was a time whenI was in, yeah, that probably
there was a fad in my school.
I remember Dexter's Laboratory,like the cartoon.
So people made like in papers,scrap papers, and then it got

(07:08):
into a formula.
I had like three calls for newlayout, but then I was like I
can't draw even.
But then I made a mistake.
I went home with a copy of oneof those drawings and then I
told my mom, even now I can'tdraw.
But then my mom like I see,even now I can't do it, but then

(07:30):
you'll stay there, you'll keeptracing that item over and over
again until you can draw it.
So since then I learned like,oops, there's nothing you can't
you, you can't do as long as youpractice right yeah, as long as
you take at it like some thingsmay be harder for you.
Yes, because, like, people areskilled differently.
But then if you keep at it like, like there's nothing, you
cannot, there's no skill outthere, you can't, ultimately,
ultimately, master, ultimately,ultimately, and even master, get

(07:51):
to a point of competence Likeyeah if you keep at it, there's
no skill out there.
You can't get competent,competent in.
And you say this to believe thisby your mom.
My mom, yeah, early on, becauseI cast, I made a border sign
and later I pitched her home.
My mom was like, yeah, I'llcast you on TV.
Like, come on, keep drawing,keep trying over and over until

(08:12):
and then I go, I can draw Dexterfrom Dexter's Laboratory,
because the difficult part washis hair.
Because his hair and there arethree different ways.
But aside from that, his racewith FIS is like simple shapes,
like street life.
He loses like a triangle.
So yeah, since then I learnedthere's nothing I can't learn.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
And yeah, that comes handy later on, Sure sure, and
does your mom really do this by,you know, convincing you why
it's important, or she beats youto it?
You know there are people whoalso get beaten to learn these
skills.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah.
So you know me, being beatendown is for discipline, it's not
for skills.
Skills are for being able tosay you're not standing from
there until you master it andthen, until once I master it,
like it's like I do a little bitof hard work.
So if it was like, yeah, this abit down, it'll go for, for,
for for.
In case of yeah, in disciplineyeah.
Like we should do a littlesteak or music Cause I think I

(09:13):
stole.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
like like coming from .
That's very important.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
We'll go Like when you have a cupboard, when you
have a TV, like change, it'slike you're leaving it there.
You've thrown something, you'releaving it there.
And the relatives like used tocome and visit us in Shanghai,
Like how do you leave like moneyin there?
So this change.
So one day he made a mistake,like picked a one-bob from me.

(09:45):
Because it's open like we werelike it's open, like it's never
in me to pick something thatisn't mine.
Yeah, you just ask yeah, andthen since then I do allow, like
, even if I build my own house,it'll be like yeah, so the money
I use is in place, becauseeveryone you go buy something
you change, leave it, leave it,leave it.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Traditability.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, when I was in high school, like my cardboard,
I put it down Cardboard.
That place is gone becauseeveryone knows you know you are
gone.
So it's one of the weirdestthings.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
You also remember from your childhood, yeah, from
my childhood.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Everything is in the open, especially about cash, and
that everyone is responsible.
There is no money, yeah, thereis no money.
There is no man who pays.
Little money, little money.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
And how was that relocation from Eastleigh to
Mombasa for you?

Speaker 2 (10:32):
I was young and then I was, so one of my favorite
cousins called Brandon.
So at first it was excitingbecause, yeah, it's because I
went for the December.
And then they told me like yeah, you're hanging around here.
I adjusted really well and thenI had like a month in December
to get used to the heat and all.

(10:53):
So I think the difference wasprobably when I was in.
You see, I didn't play as much,I was like I was in the house
and then Mombasa, like once thehouse is cleaned, I was in the
house to Kenya Because of theweather that does not allow you
to be in the house.
and then yeah, and I think alsolike out of my home, like you're
very centered around the TV,but then, mombasa, they're like

(11:15):
trying to.
So, yeah, go read, go findsomething else to go.
So I played, like I played aton.
I've never played that much Athing that happened.
It kind of like I never knew Iwas smart Because you're class
four, you're under people whoare bright, but then, mombasa,

(11:37):
they start standing apart Likeyour classroom, you're going to
do entrance exams and you'redoing better than everyone.
And that was when I was like,okay, probably there's something
here I never knew I was smart.
Mombasa like sort of cemented,probably because the school is
in Nairobi from like a bunch ofbrilliant people.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
So you could say confidently that Nairobi is
excess of everything.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
I think it was the thing with that school, probably
the thing I think the thingwith, like how public schools,
so that means resources, what itattracted and what not, and
there wasn't a difference.
and then Mombasa, that's when,like the difference, like came
through and I think also likecause work and material keeps
changing from that class classfive, class five class.
And that's when I startedgetting started being

(12:27):
differentiated Like like youknow pressure, you know people
are like you know pressure fromclass one to class, so class
five.
It's weird, like where teachersare talking to you like, ah,
you need, like you know you'redoing what you need to do.
But I'm like I'm doing what?
I need to do, it's fine.
So that's probably where Ilearned, like, where I learned
like I was academically gifted,like, like some things came

(12:50):
easier to me and that's when Ilearned I learned about, aside
from that, like I never playedas much as I played in my cousin
brandon, like, even, like, even, for I even learned how to do
my own laundry because we usedto play every time time I used
to go to the master.
like, uniform has to be a whiteshirt, it has to be a white
shirt, like when my cousin likeplay like sweat, get that,

(13:12):
everything is, everything isdirty.
And then I was like, no, youhave to learn to do your own
laundry.
Now I think that's when Ilearned how to, how I think I
remember most is the two thingsAcademically, like knowing.
I was like different, and thensome things came easier to me
academically.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
And the second thing is yeah, I never played as much
as I played as I was in Mombasa,so you did your class five to
eight in Mombasa.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Presbyterian primary school.
Yeah, so two Presbyterian andMwingo so Presbyterian.
I did class six and then MwingoPresbyterian primary school
yeah, presbyterian.
Yeah, so two Presbyterian andMwingo so Presbyterian.
I took class six and thenMwingo like class seven, and
then Mwingo class eight.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Why did you keep moving, switching schools?

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Again, it's a bit complicated.
But then so my dad felt thePresbyterian I was like like
Atlanta was different.
Like they noticed I was in, ifI was in the best in that school
for that year, it was too, likeit wasn't a bigger challenge
yeah, a bigger challenge for me,and I needed to constantly push

(14:14):
myself so like.
So I remember taking theentrance exam for like Mwingo
and my pass.
Like I got like an 80 on theirmath, because it's really new,
like they had a focus on math.
I got like an 86 on their math,86% on their math people, and I
was like, yeah, this is good,this is good.
But then, like the teacher saysthat, oh, I did an entrance
exam.
You see, that's good Little didI know like 10 people in that

(14:41):
class.
Yeah, I'm even friends withthose guys that you know,
josephine and and josephine andkof.
So, yeah, like it was a wholedifferent level.
Yeah, I was.
I call it a drill school forkcp.
Yeah, so that's that's.
That was a different, it was abigger, it was a bigger, it was
a bigger challenge.
It was.
It was more drilling for examslike you can master the concept,

(15:03):
yes, but then, like, exams area test of how prepared you are
for for them.
So it was more drilling forexams, like you can master the
concept, yes, but then, like,exams are a test of how prepared
you are for them.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
So it was a whole difference, so you did your KCP
there.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, I did my KCP there.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
And how did you perform?

Speaker 2 (15:16):
I got a 420.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Out of 500?
Yeah, out of 500.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
It was those Misiwa, misiwa 600.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
I'm not that old 700, Because those 700.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
It was used to be 700 .
So I got up for 20.
Then, Weirdly enough, it's thesame exam I did.
I got like a mock and I waslike it's fine.
And then from there I got upfor 20.
Then I think, yeah, I made likeyou must have been on papers.
No, I took 100 Mombasa orsomething.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Not nationally.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Nationally.
I got up 440s and 80s.
Yeah, I think this was 2009,.
2009 to 8.
It was right after yeah, it wasright after 2008 to 2009 to 8.
I got a 420.

Speaker 3 (15:59):
If I'd got, if I'd done that, it was pretty good.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, I would have gotten like 400 plus before, but
then, yeah, it was a whole newlevel, like even like I keep
joking like my workload in highschool wasn't as much as it was.
Oh, those guys used to drillyou guys so you had to like go
through an entire English paperbut then not just answer
questions.
You have to basically replicatethe entire paper on your

(16:22):
textbook, like you're writingevery question and answering
what was the reason for?
That to basically replicate theentire paper on your textbook.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Like you're writing every question and answering.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
What was the reason for that?
They wanted to like thematerial to be that familiar
with you.
And there's a thing people have.
I don't know why they'resurprised they're realizing this
year, like Nair keeps reusingpast examples.
Even for math.
like for math, it was notorious.
Like for math was notorious.
Like Math paper.
I think like an entire classdid it within 30 minutes because
, like, you reconsider this,like you've gone through all
past papers before, like andyou've gone over, like, you've

(16:50):
written out every singlequestion and the choices and you
answer for every singlefrequent choice and you've gone
through it over and over again.
You're like, but then you stillwork it out, just to be sure,
within 30 minutes I think 70% ofour class was done with the
math paper and there used to bemultiple choice.
Yeah, multiple choice, and thenit's repeated and then they're

(17:11):
like how are you done in 30minutes?
It's like an hour.
Math paper is like an hour.
And how are you done an hourlong paper in like 30 minutes?
Like what are you going to do?
He's cheating.
I'm like no, like you recognize, like question 15 is from KCP
201.
It was actually question 52.
Question 50 is that it was likeyeah, it kept reinforcing that

(17:32):
knowledge.
Like, yeah, you can master thecontent, yes, but then exams are
a test of how well prepared youare for them, it's the thing I
carry on at your level Like.
Exams are a test of how you'reprepared, a thing.
They're not just how you'reprepared, they're not just of
you mastering the content.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, so Amukasa now that you have CBC I don't know
if you're familiar with it itkeeps confusing me, like is it
722?
Is it, you know, 423?
Whatever it is in terms of theyears that you take.
But one thing that strikes meis how they approach different
subjects More hands-on insteadof theory.

(18:13):
So I don't know what's yourtake on that man having scored
420.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Again.
Yeah, the system was in need ofreview.
Problem is, I think there's alot of 4-4-ish implementation of
CBC.
So those hands-on tests werelike a kid is supposed to make a
toy truck, you know, likeparents are taking that to
carpet like the local fundis.
So the problem is sometimeslike some parents are doing it
right and actively, being,actively taking a part in their

(18:42):
children's education.
The question is the parents whoare still trying to as long as
things are submitted.
So that's the thing that needsto be figured out.
They need to resolve that.
Junior high, junior and seniorprimary math.
They need to sort through that,yeah.
And third thing is resources.
So for kids outside of thissuburban setting, how?

Speaker 1 (19:04):
do they?

Speaker 2 (19:04):
get the materials for their hands.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Even here, you know when you have to buy things
throughout the term it's crazyman, especially for those who
are not medium earners.
And even medium earners isquite a toll, especially when
you have to buy exactly whatneeds to be bought or print, and
you know, printing one papersometimes can go up to like 30
shillings per paper or per pageIf it's colored 50 bob If it's

(19:29):
colored, yeah.
Yeah, so it's crazy.
So my take actually is like, interms of resources, I see a
problem.
Of course, I understand if it'sa bit confusing, because the
same people who are teaching 844are the same people who are
teaching 8 for 4, are the samepeople who are learning how to
teach CBC, so I cannot expectthem to be so perfect in it.
So if I think the educationministry or the Kenya Institute

(19:53):
of Education listen to this,maybe there needs to be a
relation around resourcemanagement as well as also
catering for those who are notin the urban areas where there
is so much access.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Urban areas yeah, where there's so much access
Access resources yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
So you get invited to which national schools?

Speaker 2 (20:12):
So there was okay, this is not drama.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Was it just one or?

Speaker 2 (20:15):
No, yeah, so it was one.
So I had three choices.
So Mangu Maseno, I forgot thelast.
I think Utumidjo was my thirdchoice, and then like Fila, like
Fila, like I don't even careabout the rest.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
So the most important one was Mangu and Maseno, mangu
, maseno.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, I think Utumisha was the third choice.
And then I was like, well, youhave to choose a provincial law
and a local law.
They even had like beef withlike is, but I was like I'm not
going there, like I know, alucanis national.
No, no, no national.
Like for the local, like Ithink divisional or like lower.
That is like Alucan Mombasa.
Mombasa yeah, because it waslike right across the road.

(20:50):
So I was like, yeah, fill in.
They filled it in because it'sone of those like you have to
fill it in, but then you're likeit's even filling in for the
and then I was chosen to go toMaseno.
So I got the calling letter toMaseno, but I don't know,
kenyans like being shady, sothere's some drama about oh, we

(21:13):
can talk to someone at Mango.
I was like no, I've been calledto Maseno, let me go to.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Oh, you were not called to Mango.
I was not called to Mangobecause in national you have to
be called to one only one, yeah,one, one, yeah, one choice.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
I never even followed up the rest of the invitation.
Maseno later came in and waslike, yeah, this is it.
So there was drama about likeoh yeah, we can talk to someone
at Mangu and I was like no, it's.
Maseno, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, let's do it, but did you like Mangu or
yourself?

Speaker 2 (21:42):
So again, I never knew I was smart until class
four.
You know the people who theirentire life dream about going to
a national, never mind.
It's a school, so, maseno, it'sfine.
It's the same caliber, nationallevel.
You go look up who the alumniare Jaramogi, the rest it's fine

(22:03):
Around the school I and like,yeah, the rest, yeah, it's fine
Like around, like the school Iwas in Mwingo, like there's an
entire hype around Alliance orStareya.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
No, in every primary school that's the case, man, for
me that never fazed me.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
I was like, yeah, it's Masano, let's go.
I think I was the second in thelast five years.
I was like the second studentto be invited to Maseno from
that school.
I was like it's fine and I had.
So I keep saying Maseno, I hadthe best best of times and I had
the worst of times.
I won't change it for the while, because the thing was most

(22:39):
people forget about, like thishigh school, it's not in the
name of the school, it's sort ofthe networks, the people in the
network.
The people I leave.
I left from high school.
I have a close network withthem.
It's a close-knit network ofguys.
Whenever I meet someone and Iknow someone who is in Maseno, I
reach out to them.
We even keep finding otherpeople who are in Maseno.

(23:01):
We could be years away from me.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
The funniest one is Frank Tambry.
You have said very, veryimportant thing about schools
sometime beyond education.
It's the people you meet, thenetworks that you form and if
you actually click in terms ofwhat interests you have and what
they have, which is very, veryimportant for the investors.
But we'll get there.
So you meet Tamre at this point.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
That's one of the guys.
No, so Tamre, so Tamre afterlike years after I graduated and
we fought together in tech.
So Tamre speaks like a thing onNile iHub and then when we
follow each other on Facebooklike it did, he graduate before
you.
Yeah, years ahead of years, Ithink two years before, even two
or three years before I evenjoined, like a year, yeah.
So it's a small tight-knitnetwork we call we do like and

(23:50):
like alliance people, shade,shade, who keep reminding people
who they went to alliance.
So, maseno, we used to callourselves MOBA.
It's like a code word forpeople who in the know to accept
.
So if somebody knows like ahUjamaa Likonga Moba.
So if somebody knows like ahUjamaa Likonga Maseno, you like
there's an instant connection?
Yeah, and I keep meeting peoplefrom Maseno even now Are they

(24:15):
cool people.
Yeah, the coolest people ever.
You know Ichanze, Ichanze from.
So a couple of people in themobile space from Maseno Roni.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Roni who.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Oh sorry, roland Oti.
Roland Oti, maybe I don't knowhis name.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Maybe I know them if I see them, but not their names.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
There are people in tech who are old boys.
There are people in the mobilespace who are Maseno Like if you
see us on Twitter talking youwill know it's us.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
These are Maseno boys , old boys talking.
I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Maseno, I think a couple years after like and you
oh, maseno.
The funniest bit I noticed wasI was at Kabeberi and then I
don't know why I've refused toeat.
So people who are at Masenowill gradually, years after me,
look older than me and they keepmaking me look like where.
Kwanimu I say, come and haveyou.
So yeah, like it's a small tinynetwork Also.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Sigu was there, right , I think, yeah, I think Sigu, I
think Sigu was there, sigu wasthere.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, so the most surprising one was Nani was.
The most surprising one wasnani was Frank Tam Like yo look
at us, let's go.
So it's the small that I need.
And then, yeah, it alwayshappens.
So there are some people whogot into that more by fraternity
and they organize school events.
And then there are us who, likewe know each other in

(25:39):
communities and now you needsomething you're paying them and
like oh yeah, do you have this?
yeah, you have that, uh, okay,so I should go back.
So, uh, so for.
So for context, so machine is anational school by name and it
has, like the oldest facilitiesever.
It was set up around 1906.
Oh, okay, and then aninvestment hasn't been on the
infrastructure per se.
The investment has been intoprograms in in masano, like it

(26:01):
has the best rugby program, oneof the best basketball programs,
but then I think in Form 1,like my classroom, what are
these programs?
Yeah, like so how the schoolactually funds activities
outside class and activelyencourage them.
So we spent four years beingcalled gentlemen and then we
kept being told, like, successoutside the classroom is a
marker for success in theclassroom.

(26:22):
So if it's games time andyou're studying new, go out
there and explore life.
Go out there and play and it'sthe thing at the back of a man.
So when you join in Masaya youcheck in at the dining hall and
then all across the dining hallthere are achievement plates
with all the ways and what theyachieved, like across there.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
You find Jaramogi or Gingo.
What they achieved.
You'll find Jaramogi, ogingo,dinka.
There, you'll find Frank Tamre.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Amukasa.
Buildad, buildad, namuamboKagiya.
No, no, he's in tech.
He's in tech Buildad, he waslike the hockey team.
And then it's not only academic, academic like a few.
But then the rest is one's innationals rugby, one's in

(27:10):
nationals basketball, andCongress won a medal at Nene.
And that was instant From dayone.
So from day one I was like, yeah, I have to get on one of those
blocks, and it was just not foracademic things, because
academic is sort of like a given, because you're all you, you're
the big with the most brilliantmind, high, brilliant 14 year
olds from all across.
Kind of all can you do asidefrom from, from, from, from

(27:33):
score getting good good gradesand for me, like I like for
first, first time for one, likeI knew, like it was the back of
my hand, I tried like football.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
That was like no, this isn't it, this is this,
this isn't it.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
I was even scared like nah, this isn't it.
This isn't it.
I was even scared Like this,isn't it.
So there was a skill gap and Iwas like, second jump, first
thing I did.
They just joined the rugby teamand they learned the game from
them.
So even that, even strongerthan just being a guy from
Maseno.
So, guys who played rugby in ofguys from you, guys are good
with rugby.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, we do the only competitors were Viga or
Kakamega, kakamega, kakamega.
Nationally they produce evennational players right.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, they do.
What's the secret?

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Is it the food?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Again investing in the program, actively encourage
it.
So there are kids like ourrugby team used to have, where
you only get them when you'regoing to represent the school
outside the school and wearingone of them was the greatest
badges of one another, like haveto get it.
It could have forest green.
So yeah, like that's likecreating that incentive programs

(28:37):
in the school to push morepeople to actively pursue the
sport.
So yeah.
So aside from that, it was astronger community.
I even learned like leadership.
So usually off-season thecaptains and the team run
practice sessions.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
What is off-season in Masena?

Speaker 2 (28:58):
So Sunodjo rugby is in term one and term two, so
term one used to be so when Istarted seventh.
Forgive my ignorance.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
We never played ignorance.
It's all good.
It's all good, it's all good.
The closest we get to rugby,the school I was in, there's a
guy who came from Patch and hetried to like you know.
You know, patch is really good.
Yeah, they're like oh we, weused to play rugby.

(29:25):
And then we were like show us,show us.
And then we contributed somemoney bought a ball but of
course I was in seminary so thatwas not one of the biggest
things to do there so yeah, forus investment in the school is
getting balls.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Like you think you need one ball, you do not need.
Like you need an entirestoreroom with balls.
You need an entire storero or aclassroom with weights.
You need a classroom with kids.
You need a dedicated rugbypitch.
You need a tackle bag.
You need tackle bags fortraining.
We had something used to call ascrum machine For training.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, it's a metal thing.
Oh, you guys are serious aboutthese things.
Yeah, I've seen those things onthe rugby, you know
professional rugby channel.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
So yeah, like scrum machines in school.
Every program has like a scrummachine and so that was the
investment.
And then, aside from that,you're building incentive
fractures for more people to tryout the sport.
I had the best.
I think I had more fun in therugby pitch and in the computer
lab than actual, actual studying, actually studying, studying

(30:21):
there, because that was my goal.
I was like, yeah, I've done X,y, z, like academics is not a
problem.
Yeah, I want to play rugby.
Yeah, yeah.
So you're saying something aboutoff-season, oh so, yeah, term
one was, yeah, term one you play.
So back then, term one, youused to play seventh.
Term two, 15th.
So there are two chances foryou to make the team and then,

(30:44):
in time, three, there are nolike actual, there's no like
rugby games happening.
So that's when it's, that'swhen you prepare for the next
season.
So during then, our rugby coachwould never show up for a
training, like he'd show up witha coffee cup and then see what
you're doing.
But aside from that, it's youfor new people, to learn new

(31:06):
skills and new people.
And then for you to hone, like,the basics of the, the game.
And during that time, this, uh,the, the, the, the coaches
never like actually coach,because I coach the teacher,
like he never showed up, and toactually run the training.
Captains, because it's someonein form four, someone in form
three, because they know theprogram, they're the ones who
take me through through drillsand yeah, yeah, it's a
reinforcement on how leadershipwas given, someone, one of you

(31:28):
guys willing to stand up andwilling to deliver.
I think that's what it is.
If I'm in a room and no onewants to start a conversation,
I'll stand up, I've seen you.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
I've seen you on both sides, where you start
conversation, where you startproblems, and we'll talk about
that in a few.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
So that's where I learned yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
So you do all these things but you never like
immerse yourself in like a gamelike football, rugby, music
festival, drama.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
I did rugby and science, because when you're
doing rugby, like you don't day,it's training Every day, like
every day, like from five tofive to six.
After classes After classes, sofar like it was games times.
Every day, all guys go to therugby pitch and then the best
part of it was Saturday wasgames.
Like it was game day.

(32:22):
All the games, yeah, no, no, itwas game day.
Like for rugby pitch.
Like it's 20 of you in a pitch,you divide it into two or three
teams, maybe go around playingseven, and then preps end at
lunchtime on Saturday.
So the entire day on Saturday,the entire half day on Saturday,
the entire half day on Sunday.
You're just going out there andplaying Because you're there to

(32:43):
play rugby.
We even had more fun onSaturdays than actually
presenting the school outsidevery nice.
Yeah, it was one of the fun, oneof the fun even now we meet
someone from Maseno, someone whodid rugby.
You spend like 30 minutessharing stories of how you used
to be, yeah, like what thingshappened on the pitch there on

(33:04):
that.
Saturday.
That was one of the funnesttimes.
That's where people like,that's where you prove yourself.
You've earned a spot on theteam.
Yeah, that was one of thefunnest times.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
And something else, amukasa about the rugby.
I know once you talk aboutrugby you cannot talk about
rugby without cheerleading.
Were there like a strongcheerleading team in Maseno.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
So again, that was whoever was loudest and stand up
, and you are loud guy.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
Oh, you're not the loudest.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
I'm the loudest but then say I mean I mean kids.
Then even if I'm on the bench,I mean kids.
That's why I don't have time to.
The thing I used to like mostwas sidecups before games.
So even before sidecups beforegames, I even remember them like
the back of my, the back of mymind you want to chant a few
maybe, maybe the shortest one sothis is and they are quite

(33:59):
intimidating.
It is intimidating, but then Iused to like simmer down and
with Ebwana, ebwana Toba OkombeMoja Zahidi, they used to like
you psyched up before before.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Saying what you said, but with more energy.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, Even like psych-ups were one of the things
I remember the most.
What else, what else?
Yeah that.
And yeah, in game a rugbylegend got to play with and like
this is the thing I kepttelling people.
So Billy Lamek, billy the kid,billy Odiyambo yeah, he was a
year ahead of me and I actuallyplayed played rugby with him the

(34:44):
first time like actually hadgameplay.
We had that Saturday.
Merigorao, nini, nini andsomeone on my team like gets
injured and then Billy like subsin for them and then the thing
Billy does is there's a thing inrugby, when you get tackled
like you form a rack like easy,like recycle the tackle,
recycling the ball himselfmoving forward, getting tackled
again, recycling.
I was like yo, like let us play, like yeah, that was the thing,

(35:07):
that, that the, the, uh, whatwas it?
One of the weird, uhinteresting thing I remember.
So, uh, most people think likerugby it's like a huge, very
physical, very physical game,but then the masano style of
rugby emphasized hands, like howwell you pass, so make the ball
, do all the work and findopportunities at the wings and
then fancy plays, fancy passes,fancy plays.

(35:29):
So I specialised in a couple ofthose.
Yeah, like that was my best.
That and the computer lab weremy best experiences.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
So if someone could not find you on the pitch, they
could find you in the computerlab.
So which position did you useto play on the?

Speaker 2 (35:45):
pitch.
I played a scrammuff, soscrammuff is so we had like.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
That is in the middle or side, or it's in the middle.
It's like a.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
It's like a point guard, like you're the ones who
passes between.
So there are two different,there are two types of teams.
You have the line guys who runthe ball and you have the guys
in the scrum, so the heavy guysin the scrum down, so the guys
who passes the ball from thescrum down to the line guys so
that the play can happen iscalled a scrum off.
Whenever a rack happens, theguy comes in and restarts plays.
So it's like an orchestra, soyou're the one who chooses which

(36:20):
.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
So you're the playmaker.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
You're close to the, you can be the playmaker, but
the other playmaker is the guyyou directly parallel.
So there's a guy you call a flyhalf.
The fly half is the fanciestposition In rugby.
They kick, they pass, they doall the fancy.
They call moves.
So it's a second.
Your choice is finding.
So your goal was for vision.
Your job was to look at thedefense line.

(36:45):
This is the rack as formed.
Look at the defense line, havevision and see where the gaps
are.
In sevens there's an additionaltask, Like when you're defending
.
There's someone like thisyou're line defending and then
there's someone else behind.
We call them a sweeper.
So in sevens, your scrum off isalso doubles up as a sweeper.
And then in 15s, your entirejob is to make sure the ball is

(37:07):
moving, the ball is getting.
As soon as the rack forms,you're making the pass.
It's called for quick hands,quick pass and smart moves.
Yeah, so South Africa just wonthe World Cup.
Yeah, For people out there Fafde Klaak, the position Faf de
Klaak plays.
I used to play that.
So the short guy, short, tinyguy who's always chasing bigger

(37:30):
people trying to make tackles.
So I was playing that position.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
So you still watch these rugby games?
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
I do, I do, I do Like the World Cup that just
finished up was crazy.
It was crazy, yeah, which iscrazy, crazy, crazy so this is
very interesting.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Maybe we should bring some of these you know sevens
players, or you know, becausefor us it's just checking who is
doing an amazing stuff inAfrica, because really do we
showcase like South Africa won,but how many people get to sit
down and tell what actually wenton before even the winning?

(38:05):
Because I know most of the workthat is done is behind?
the scenes yeah so if we get achance, maybe possibly we will
showcase some of those, yeah.
So yeah, just if you arelistening to us, please follow
us, subscribe, show some loveand that will help us.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
I think I can bully what's Oscar Uma?
Oscar Uma is a friend of mineand he's into tack, so I can
probably bully him.
So Oscar.
Uma, if you're seeing this, Imight bully him in the podcast
yeah, just let him know.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
We would be glad to host him just to talk about what
happens in rugby, and I'm sosad that now we don't do it much
nationally and internationally.
I don't know what's up, man,maybe you know more than I do
it's management.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
It's like we were supposed to be in Dubai, play as
, so we're out of the circuit,but then we could play like as
one of the expansion teams inDubai, like in the Dubai 7s, but
then we didn't do it.
So it was two things it wasmanagement and it was coaching.
So we had please don't come andbeat me we had a guy called
Bofa.
I've forgotten his name.

(39:13):
Bofa, I've forgotten it's hisfull name.
So we went with a very physicalbrand of rugby where it's only
kifuwa kifuwa nying, only kifuwakifuwa nyingi, kifuwa kifuwa
nyingi, boshing boshing, ratherthan running though the ball in.
That cost us the circuit andmanagement cost us being in the
circuit.
We were supposed to be in thisseventh circuit, but that failed

(39:34):
.
The glitter, the small glittersof hope, is that we were in the
World Cup, in the, in the, inthe sevens Olympics.
We qualified for that, beatingSouth Africa to qualify for that
.
So we had to go to qualifiersand we qualified for for that.
So the, the regional heart ofrugby, is coming back where we

(39:54):
are recycling the ball becauseit's sevens.
Like there are four fewerpeople on the pitch in Giza, in
Giza Kifua, so the pitch is veryhuge.
A few of you guys on the pitch.
If you move the ball fastenough, you can find
opportunities in wings, you cancreate opportunities in the
centers and that's where we'regoing back to that brand of
rugby.
This is a new blood.
Who's moving, apart from theBofa Routuan?

(40:16):
Like physicality in sevens wewere getting very physical.
Rather than making the ball dothe work for us, all you need to
do is like fixing problems atKFC, krfua it's KRU, kru or
KRFUA, like either of yeah andthen management.

(40:38):
Because I was there this year.
I was at KBVT 7.
I thought it was the last seventhings happening and then, out
of nowhere, they tell us oh,safaricom 7 is back.
People didn't show for safaricom7, but Kauberi was was parked,
was parked, so that's the thingwe need to to fix, and then also
we need to consider, likeimproving that 15s 15s game

(40:58):
we've been losing to Uganda invery few, so we need to.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
And it's cranes, cranes, yeah, cranes, yeah.
What do they call their rugbyteam?
I know the football is cranes,yeah, anyway, I think yeah, they
call so many of their productscranes.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
I think it's cranes so it was Victoria Cup.
We lost.
We lost by a single point tothem in Victoria Cup, yeah, but
then in the Elgon Cup, it washappening in Nairobi, things
happened.
So, yeah, we need to.
The fitness game can improvetoo, so there's opportunities

(41:33):
for and the talent is there.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Oh, very nice, Very nice.
So you get to Form 4.
Ah yeah, what was thoseexperiences in class that you
remember vividly?
Okay, so I think to Form 4.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Ah, yeah, what was those experiences in class that
you remember vividly?
Okay, so I think at Form 4,that's when I figured out like
I'm going into tech full time sowe used to have like late prep,
so our prep used to end at 11.
But then from 9 pm you couldleave.
People were doing computerscience like computer studies,
progress.
You could leave class and go tocomputer science, like computer
studies you could leave.
You could leave class and go tothe comp club and like that's

(42:09):
what I used to do.
And then Friday night we usedto pool all night all night in
the comp club.
so we got to a time like ourprojects were done, like fully,
entirely.
We were entirely done.
We were just having fun playingaround with computer labs.
You remember that from 4 youusually make a book, a scrapbook
, where people leave theirnumbers.
I made one with the same way.

(42:30):
We're using Microsoft Accessand then Visual Basic for
application.
It's coding on top of all theaccess and that's why I learned
how to do it, even though Idon't like relational databases
in actual, real life.
I learned basic for relationaldatabases there.
I built my first project.

(42:51):
By the time we were done Ibuilt one of those scrapbooks
and I was telling guys, oh yeah,for prep, when's this game set?
Could you any complab?
And you're like, yeah, it was afancy way to collect and that's
when I knew I'm going.
I'm going to spend the rest ofmy life with with computers so

(43:14):
how did you perform in KCSE?
so it was funny now, yeah.
So like I knew I was doing, Iwas going to do like we all knew
, like all return of us wasgoing to do well, yeah.
But then I think, like for that, like class three, because it's
like for three years, three anda half years, I was like
leaving for game time, likeyou're doing class work, but
then five games.

(43:34):
But so I was only leaving forthe computer lab.
I did well, I got an A.
I was expecting an A in thelist because I was in the middle
of the pack.
So yeah, again, you're 300 ofyou in a class, like from four,
like not in a single class, likeyour tests like all the streams

(43:55):
combined.
Five streams like 300 class ofyou.
I used to award like the top 80, like every year, and I was
usually at the tail end of thetop 80 guys.
I was in the middle of themiddle of the park.
I was expecting like an e-minus.
I got yeah, I got a in a um,but again like it was all about
the books.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
It's just about what you can do with it yeah what you
can do later.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
and then the thing my biggest takeaway was was what
was, what's this called, was Iwas going to do things with
computers and what else Plusacademic knowledge Can you put,
can you put onto the, can youput on the on the table?
But again, I think I'm alsojaded against the entire
education system because youusually think like, yes, you've

(44:37):
got an opportunity, you've gotan A like the world should be
but, it doesn't.
It doesn't you have to stillhustle on your own, you have to
get opportunities on your own,and that's what I learned.
Even for anyone out there whodidn't do as well as I did, it
doesn't matter as much as youthink.
Once you've achieved that, it'sa thing.
It's on to the next achievement,yeah, it's on to the next

(44:57):
achievement.
And for me, that's when I thinkI was sort of done with school,
done with school, I knew I wasworking with computers the rest
of my life.
So right after form four, evenbefore results came in, I was, I
was like I was going to workwith computers and at that time
the point, the first frontierwas Android, android, android

(45:18):
app.
So I did, caught in the fanfareof oh, you got this.
Or for, funny enough, I nevergot onto one of those plaques
because of rugby, because, likethe highest you got, we got a
silver medal for 15s when I wasin form 3 but never won any
national title after that.
So I wasn't in one of thoseplaques for rugby, but I got in

(45:40):
one of those plaques because of,like academic one of those
plaques because of academicperformance.
It got like 91.
Like 100 people in my class gotA's.
Like a third of my Asian classgot A's.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
That is including A-minors.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
No, no, it's just a plain A's, like hundreds of us,
like a third of us got A's.
And then what else?
There used to be a frictionbetween my parents because they
see I'm in the middle of my parkand they thought I wasn't
performing as well.
I was like no, our tests aren'tstandardized, the grading isn't
standardized, the grading isn'tnormalized like I'm doing.

(46:14):
And my dad would show up forthose academic links and they
tell them oh, your child isdoing your child is doing Me, no
, I'm doing fine.
They used to like book for me.
Holidays, those like holidaytuitions.
You go to holiday tuitions andyou notice like you are ahead of
everyone and you're like whyare you making me?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
I need to rest and maybe have some good time.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
But now that you've mentioned about holiday tuitions
, do you advocate for those?

Speaker 2 (46:40):
No, like just do you like let the school give the
child an assignment and thenlet's do it.
Funny enough, when I was inschool you'd have like three set
of exams like opening exams,opening exam, middle exam, and
then it needs to perform betterin the opening one than the rest
of the school.
Because when I was in schoolI'm only studying in the
classroom and perhaps outside ofthe time I'm doing other things

(47:00):
outside of the classroom.
In the classroom and perhapsoutside of the time I'm doing
other things outside of theclassroom.
But then when I'm home, see, Ihave to like finish up my, my
curriculum and then I try andread ahead.
So I used to spend holidayslike doing reading ahead a bit.
So past holidays, like firstexam, like opening exam, I used
to like do really, really all ofit.
Everyone else was rusted.

(47:21):
And then when I'm in school,like it normalizes for, for, for
us, even think like, likepeople ops, like I was, my index
was like 91 and like because Iwas like they did that exam at
the beginning of form one.
And then they used to like do,like weekly tests and reshuffle
according to that.
So the reshuffling I was in, Ithink I was like, all of these

(47:43):
stuff don't matter.
The one that matters is thefinal exam.
So I'll keep doing rugby, I'llkeep doing other things.
When it came to the exam,people were like how Amukasa,
why are you in?
How are you in?
Like that was the second classand I was constantly in the
bottom because like.
I knew in the, the final examactually the rest was just

(48:05):
filler.
My thoughts on education wasjailed, probably because I
didn't have to work as hard asmost people.
But then, yeah, it's just stepone.
The other things you need toachieve it's how you apply the
knowledge and how you get toindustry.
That actually determines whatyou do in life.
I've never been no one has likeI got an E, I got a foot in.

(48:28):
No one has ever asked for thatprofessionally, as I'm working
in industry, it's always whatcan you do, what problems can
you?
Solve.
And if you figure out theeducation if you're getting, if
you're trying, if you want yourchild to be like academically
excellent, let them know theirpath is to get into academia and
to contribute new.
It's not an edge to be aprofessor in a lecture.

(48:52):
It's not an edge for a betterpaying job because in this work
environment we're in, it's notconsistent.
You have brilliant people likeburning up the papers.
They're like I can't get thisover.
Like, yeah, the industrydoesn't care about your age, it
cares about what problems youcan solve.
Yeah, so that's an knowledgeI'll give people.

(49:14):
If you can do good, do well.
I don't mean check out fromschool, I'm telling you limited.
Are you going to be an industry, an academic, full-time,
contributing new knowledge, orare you trying to be a
professional to actually solveproblems in the industry?

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yes, yes.
So I have to ask you thisbecause even me it fascinated me
.
I was okay, I'll tell my storyone day and I keep telling my
guests that every guest I host,they always offer to be the host
and, by the way, to be honest,I have not gotten the right
hosts to ask me the rightquestions.
But I'm not saying you can't,it's just that you need to get

(49:54):
in that flow.
One thing that fascinated me inhigh school is the guy who used
to be number one, and Iinquired about him from my
school and one of the thingsthat was fascinating about him
is that first, that is from oneand from two, he used to be
number last, ah, and then hestepped up Then second time from

(50:14):
two.
Oh, my goodness, the guy getsto number two, number three gets
to number one and the rest ishistory.
No like no.
This guy used to get perfectscores.
And another thing that Inoticed about him he wasn't that
guy who is a book warmer.
He was in all the troubles thatyou can think about.
He was actually in those thingsthat you cannot imagine.

(50:36):
So I don't know about you guys.
Now that you're index 91, whatwas it like to be index one?

Speaker 2 (50:45):
So there are two things.
The people who are like, Ithink, probably brilliant people
do not phase me because I'vebeen in sort of environments
where everyone is brilliant, soso I've noticed two things.
Yeah, they are brilliant.
Yes, and then they worked atthe exam.
It was not about mastering.
The content is, again, becauseyou know, it changes from

(51:06):
multiple answers to writtenopen-ended answers.
They used to like answerquestions the way the examiner
no, the examiner expected themto answer.
So the best friend of mine iscalled Rafael Riguanzo I think
he's at Google, rafael.
So I looked at one of hisphysics papers.
He was a great dozer out of 70.

(51:27):
He got like a 60.
I'm there.
I was like I know the content,like all my answers, like for me
, I would go on long windingstories, but then he was like
exact point to deliver the, the,the Nini, so he was answering
the questions.
They learned how examiners.
They went to the grade andlearned how they expected
questions and answers, because Ithink the only thing I did Were
you taught how to answer thesequestions, how examiners expect?

(51:50):
For me?
No, I think I learned from fourwhen you were revising.
That's when you go like, whenit's like sunk, but then before
that, like you go through howthey answer questions and like
they are prepared for the exam,like answering how the examiner
expected the question to be.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
So are you saying back at home they used to have
these guys who prepared them.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
No, no, like it's going through, like it's
preparing for the exam, ratherthan just reading the content
it's going people in otherclasses asking for their papers.
So they figured out how theexaminers expected the questions
to be answered.
Like there's a beef I have withlike English like English
literature.
I've read the material.
I know I know like the answer,I know the content, I know the

(52:33):
themes, but that if you do notprovide three themes, that is
that as expected in whateverteacher's guide they've offered,
they won't give you the marks.
But I'm like it's literature,it's like how you understand and
you explain, because I'm likeexplaining theme xyz in my way
of explaining explanation, andit makes perfect sense.
Then who typos?
But you're not getting themarks because the teacher

(52:56):
expected this list from thisteacher's guide, this list of
themes and these explanations tothem.
So that's the thing.
One thing was broken with 824and instead our school like, so
again, our grades weren't likenormalized and whatnot.
So it was that split, splitdifference of marks and it was

(53:16):
like nah, like it doesn't makesense, yeah like.
So there's, I have this.
It's a lean startup thing whereanything more than what you
need to get initial feedback isthis.
So I was like anything morethan what you need to get
initial feedback is with.
So I was like those guys.
But then they spent theirentire existence or the four
years providing answers the wayexaminers expected them, but

(53:37):
then again like if you, whenthat sample size is increased to
the whole of Kenya, you know, Iam in the top percentile
because you know there's thatdifference.
So it's a thing I figured out.
I figured out how to go throughschool with the least effort on
academics and then the mosteffort on other extracurricular

(53:59):
stuff, because I knew there's alife outside the classroom.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Yeah, yeah.
So you got your A.
Which university did you getinvited to?
Jquart Jquart.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
But then I chose Actual science and then I Actual
Actual science, so At the backof the mind I was, so I had
already Like learned To writeJava.
I really learned Like that.
That year you have when peoplego to ICDL, gap year.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
Where I went and I locked myself home and, like I
told you, I wasn't spending therest of my life with computers.
So I learned how to like movingfrom VBA, because I know VBA is
just a thing for school.
Let me learn what actual peoplein the industry are.
So I learned Java and learnedAndroid.
So I was already an Androiddeveloper before I joined actual
science.
I was telling myself it's themath, because it's the

(54:46):
mathematics of risk, especiallyapplications in insurance.
I was telling myself, it givesme a grounding for the math
behind it.
Because I knew ultimately Iwanted to do AI things.
And again, I kept getting jadedwith the education system.
Because, for a fact, actualscience shouldn't exist as a
cause.
Because around the world,people do mathematical courses,

(55:09):
core math courses, pure mathcourses, and then take the exam,
study for the actual exam andif they pass it, pass it.
So someone with a mathematicsdegree, someone with a
statistics degree, can actuallystudy for the actual science
exam and pass it.
So those two things.
So yeah, it shows how it's socommercialized, especially
tertiary education.
It's so commercialized, likeespecially tertiary education.

(55:29):
It's so commercialized wherefaculties try constantly to keep
trying to add programs that arehot and then the market keeps
telling them like these peoplehave given us.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
They are so many of them.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
They're underprepared for the world because they're
putting putting what's hot onthe placard of the course but
then offering the same academicBecause the same units we took
were the same financialengineering guys, the same units
we took.
So there's a course known asfinancial engineering, financial

(56:08):
engineering what does that?
Do Like it's the same thing,Like it's the math.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
Do you mean the system or what no?

Speaker 2 (56:13):
it's learning about like financial instruments.
It's the same we're doing.
It starts with like a mathstatistics probability
statistics and what's this thingcalled and calculus concepts
and what's this thing calledCalculus concepts, and then,
aside from that, you're usingcalculus concepts and math
concepts and discrete mathconcepts to figure out things
around like something likepresent value, like if I'm

(56:36):
buying a bond at 100K that paysme 10K every month, what's the
present, what's the value todaybefore I get earning 10K?
Or what's the accumulated valueafter 10 years.
So there's math around that andthat's where that's most of the
core applications financialprojections, studying financial

(56:56):
reports and the like.
So we used to share a couple ofunits.
There's even a programming one,like they have a relational
database unit that I used toabsolutely crash without
studying and they had one forRSTATs, like the programming
language RSTATs.
But then again it's acombination of units without

(57:20):
telling you how it applies, howthe whole, how the sum of the
parts make the whole.
That's the thing that's broken.
And in the working that's thething that's broken.
And in the working there'ssomething in insurance called
making reserve.
Like if you're taking premiumsfor people, how do you budget
for reserves in case claims getmade so that people don't leave

(57:43):
school without knowing how to dothat?
But then they have theunderlying mathematics on how to
do it.
So that's the disconnect.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
But would you not say that even with any other course
, they give you the foundation.
Now, how you choose toimplement that or practice that,
it's just your effort, becauseeven in computer science you're
not taught how to code.
Most of the languagesFundamentally all the languages
use this theoretical approach todo XYZ.

(58:11):
And then if you join acommunity or a hackathon or a
bootcamp or you're building asystem, then you stand out to
see them in action.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Now that's the problem.
People go to guys are going tocampus.
They take it to their jobmarket.
People are using that like I'mgoing to learn the skills I it
to the job market Like peopleare using that Like I'm going to
that learn the skills I take tothe job, but you're not, like
you're not being taught how itactually applies in the real
world.
Like I remember, like there's aunit like a calculus 3 unit.
After you learn about it, theapplication segment is on how

(58:44):
it's used to calculate thesurface area of some geometric
shape.
I'm like yo the actualreal-life applications are not
telling you.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
This is not the application you're looking for
Until you're in the ocean andyou're lost.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Calculus is used in machine learning so that an AI
model can understand content,remember content.
Something called chain ruleactually applies in machine
learning.
You never learn that after youdo present value, after you do
expected value in statistics,like those coin flipping

(59:19):
examples you never learn, likehow gamblers actually use it to
be, how casinos use it to makesure they're profitable, because
that's where it applies, andthen people keep going to Asinos
use it to make sure they'reprofitable, because that's where
it applies.
And then people keep going tocampuses as an out of poverty,
as an outage to get into the jobmarket, but there it's not.
There it's to create moreacademic.

(59:40):
It's to create more people whowill contribute more knowledge
into what you know as knowledge.
People think getting a PhDmakes you a better fit for a job
, but then People think gettinga PhD makes you a better fit for
a job.
But no, getting a PhD is yousaying I've decided material
that is and then specialize onthis small area to move advance
the whatever we as humanunderstand as knowledge, moving

(01:00:03):
it a step forward.
It's not to look better on yourCV, it's not to look better on
your CV and that, not to lookbetter on your cv.
And that's the disconnect andwe need to fix that in how we
sell education and how campusesand because they even mistreat
people, like how you know, likebefore exams, like the lines of
like, usually queues aroundfinance, finance teams, like,
like things that are messy inschools, and people don't care

(01:00:25):
because they think they'rethey're giving, think they're
giving you an outlet of poverty,while it's not an asset.
They're there to create moreknowledge.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
And it's a business after all.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
I had a cousin and my sister graduating the other day
and I was asking just for fun,because I'm the only one who
doesn't have a degree in thefamily.
I asked, like, how much arethey paying?
Do they make you pay to rentthe graduation gown?
The graduation gown Becausethere's also that feeling of
vanity that, oh yeah, like thephotos, my family is there and
it's also like it's generational.

(01:01:00):
There's some families thatnever had like a.
It's a point of vanity metricswhere, oh, I have a college
called college, so we need togrow a.
Grow that because the jobmarket has absolutely,
absolutely changed and it needsus to change and evolve for that
.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Yeah, so I'm gonna say you have said something very
important here that, uh, youhere, you are done here, you've
got to take one, but you don'thave a degree.
What happened?

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
I don't know.
So funny story.
Uh, before, even Before.
Even there's a program byZafarecom called Upwiz.
So I entered my first Hackathor.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Which year was that that you participated?

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
2014.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Ah, so you are with this.
What is the name of this team?

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Guidrig.
No, tichawa was after before us, was after before us.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Oh, Tichai the guys who built Tichai.
What's the something system?
I can't remember.
They're now.
Kenobi the guy who runs Kenobi.
But we're the guide rig crew soit was my Tichai versus yours
was no no, so mine was calledAltipedia.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
So again, mindset from school.
We took past KCP papers andthen put them into a trivia game
app.
So, the same way, I learned toget opportunities to do past
content, put past content andpast papers in a way that's
interactive and fun.
So it's called LGPDLA At ourheight.
We got like 300 users At ourheight and then the funny thing

(01:02:24):
then was people didn'tunderstand the place, so like
like data charges were so highthen Android phones were just
getting cheaper.
People used to disable the PlayStore on their phone because
the cheapest data packet waslike 20-bub for 100 MB on Airtel
.
That was the cheapest datapacket.
People didn't want to updateapps on the Play Store and then

(01:02:47):
I remember like guerrillamarketing through that app, like
you'd have to get someone'sphone and disable the Play Store
and then remove the app formyou know when you say that Gen Z
will not understand.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
I don't know if you're Gen Z, but Gen Z will not
understand you, becausenowadays it's just what is the
Wi-Fi password?
Right Then it was about thebundles, and that ended moment
between life and death.
So should I go for a mess forlike two, three days, or should
I buy 20 MBs Somethinginteresting, by the way, that
you mentioned also, I think.

(01:03:21):
When I was at the university, Iparticipated in a startup
weekend together with you know.
Roger Sandati was a really goodAndroid engineer.
I think he's still an Androidengineer Nice I participated in
a startup weekend together withRogers Andati.
He was a really good Androidengineer.
I think he's still an Androidengineer.
Nice Nanda.
Nanda yeah, banta, and we teamedand another lady was not a
student actually and we built anapplication called Masomo Moya,

(01:03:46):
nice.
So it was around harmonizingeducation.
Still, I feel that that ideacould be really something,
because we are looking at itlike why do you have
international schools and Idon't know KCSE, I don't know
what not international Bakukas?
Why don't you put it together?
And then when someone islearning, they can learn all

(01:04:09):
these, but make a choice.
So that was the concept.
We never pursued it beyondStartup Weekend.
That's the problem withprograms but.
I met some cool people and alsowe had some really good good
weekend, Because I don't know ifyou've ever participated in
Startup Weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
No, I've not.
It'll be Startup Week.
I know so.
It'll be Startup Week, like theones of them.
But no, so I think Apples wasmy first thing.
And then I was like so, andthen with Apples, there was like
a million bob in funding at theend of it, like so incubation.
And then and then versus itstarted at the same time.
So I was like, yeah, I deferredand I had the option to defer

(01:04:46):
at J-Corp, like J-Corp is, likeyou, deferred at which year,
first year like before I evenjoined like I deferred.
I deferred to do like yeah,rather than joining, you
deferred yeah, I deferred Ideferred for a year to do like
the Safaricom thing.
Yeah, like so looking at J-Corpand Africa to Lathbun, I got
into the space.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Come.
I didn't meet you because Ialso I had a, I don't know.
I think I participated as ajudge or something.
I can't remember how Iparticipated, but I was Around
Upwitz yeah.
There's a guy who used.
I think I should bring him here.
His name was Sam Njoma.
He won one of those Upwitz, samNjoma, he was really a ninja

(01:05:26):
what did he build?
I can't remember it's been awhile, but he used to build some
great, great apps maybe two orthree apps when they were
running by Safaricom, yeahbecause it was a partnership
between Safaricom and Ibis.

(01:05:47):
I'll show him after this so thatyou see if you know him.
But I believe that those aresome of the opportunities that
actually propel some of thesolutions and I've seen a lot of
guys actually come from thosehackathons and build some proper
, proper startups.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Like my magazine reel from Mabiri I was the one who
won you know magazine, mymagazine reel from Mabiri.
I was the one who won in themagazine reel.
But then, aside from that,guiderig, one of the like the
second runner's up and they'restill running even now Like
GuideRig, is still up.
I've even used their service toticket some of my beer things
on there.

(01:06:24):
So yeah, a couple of companiesstill exist.
So the teacher guy now runs hisown consultancy called Kinugi.
It's a cloud something.
Yeah, it's Alan Mukona.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
Yeah, Alan Mukona.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
So, yeah, people come from work and build actual
companies from the side.
So the funny thing is me andyou was entering Like it was my
first four-day meeting, like Iwas developing at home.
It was my first chance.
Like me, I was entering acomputer.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Out of the bedroom.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Yeah, bedroom, like I was entering it as a techie, so
let me see how I match upagainst other techies.
But then you get in and you'relearning all these business
ideas.
Now it stuck to me like beingan entrepreneur is a path in
being a techie.
Like you can build a company ofyour own yeah just from building
software and since then Ihaven't looked back.
Like some of the lessons Ilearned to then apply.

(01:07:12):
They keep seeing them in otherprograms.
I'm a main, but then I'm likeI've learned them in a very, at
a very early age, like I was 19.
Then, like I made my.
So there's something called abusiness model canvas that
clearly articulates what you'retrying to build.
I built my first financialprojection.
Then I learned how to likeproperly style my pitches.

(01:07:36):
From then, even like today,like I go like over pitching
sessions, do training pitchingsessions, and then I deliver my
first business like, okay, justchange these two things and
you're good to go.
Well, you know, like when youget into a program and they're
like they don't embarrassthemselves before guys, they're
finding them, they wanted tomake sure you get clean.
So I do that one of those likedemo pitches, like exercise
pitches, and they're like, okay,amkasa, you're good, let's go

(01:07:58):
to the.
Change one or two things, weare set for the next one.
So, yeah, like I got more mycore skills from that program.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
So JQuart is still waiting for you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
Yeah, it's, funny I joined JQuart.
You joined after one year, afterI joined JQuart, but then again
I've spent a year outside myexpectations in avian, in my
classroom.
Did you win, by the way, on theuptick?
No, I never won, I never won.
It was $10,000 and then aboutlike $3,000, separated by

(01:08:31):
categories, for other guys.
So we never.
We never actually got.
We got funding from that group,but then I learned the program,
I got into the ecosystem.
Then, even after I was likeapplying for other things, I got
to I WhatsApp groups for thefirst time and I became a part
of the of the ecosystem,ecosystem.

(01:08:53):
And then after that, afterthings don't happen, I'm like
struggle not getting past 300users.
I'm not getting otheropportunities like fun things
around edtech are not happening.
I go back to to Jcord, but thentwo things struck me like my
mindset was different thananyone else in my class,
probably because everyone elsewas fresh from high school.
And I've like seen the world.
I got actually hung out withthe late Bob Collymore like

(01:09:16):
right from Upways.
Like got hung out with him likethe showcase.
After, like the Upways thing,got hung around.
Upways start for wages.
Everyone else is being forcedto follow a dress code because
they're going to the opposite.
I've seen this another level tolife.
Rather than just get to school,get people.
I've had access to spaces whereI never have access.

(01:09:39):
I think Safaricom invited us to.
They usually run a program.
They usually help run aninnovation program for high
schoolers.
I forgot what it is.
They invited us to help judgeand what.
So I've seen Is it with theM-Pesa.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
No, not with M-Pesa Academy.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
It was just like the Innovation Hour of Safaricom.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
But how is that doing ?
Now that you've mentioned it,I've just thought it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
So, okay, I mentored in something called Innovate
Kenya, so it's a program forhigh schoolers, and they came up
build a product within a week.
So the problem with South is,rather than specializing in a
specific tech stack, these kidsare learning.
If you're like in high school,you're learning like Python,
you're learning Python, you'relearning like you're not.
Again, you're not told like.

(01:10:23):
This applies to this.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
This and this applies you, this applies to this, this
and this applies to that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
They're getting introduced and they're getting
introduced to everything.
They're doing everything, fromIoT to Python apps.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Let me tell you something about that, and I
think these are mistakes peopleare making.
So for us at Africa Stalking wedo monthly archivings every
last Thursday of the month andpeople build solutions.
So if you come there and seepeople actually build a solution
that actually can be an MVPwithin 12 hours, you assume it's

(01:10:55):
easy to do it.
You forget.
Maybe some of these guys aregraduates.
Some of these guys are maybe intheir fourth year.
Some of these guys haveparticipated in like 10, 15
hackathons.
And then you assume, if you goand teach some bunch of high
school kids all thesetechnologies, which people take
degrees of five to six years tolearn, they just happen to
become developers.

(01:11:16):
Okay, I'm not refuting that youcan teach yourself how to be a
developer, but being a developeris not easy.
All right, now leave that alone.
Being a computer scientist iseven harder.
Being an engineer is alsoharder.
So let's, let's, let's peoplenot assume that because you can
get some tutorials on youtube orsome pdf books about computer

(01:11:39):
science, now you become adeveloper.
No, no, no.
It takes a lot of dedication, alot of extra working hours,
practice, a lot of failures.
I don't know if there was adeveloper who built their system
once, even some CTOs.
They build and make you know,get bugs.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Yeah, bugs that are given.
No matter how skillful you arewith the tech stack, you will
even with the solution, ifyou've made it a hundred times
before you will always face bugs, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
So let's get out of the way, because I've seen that
notion and also I've seen a lotof institutions come up, you
know, teaching all these UlaBaloo and then they end up
churning out some incompetentguys over and over and over.
And I know parents spend a lotof money to pay for those kids.
So, please, I'm notdiscouraging people from
pursuing these, I'm just sayingjust be realistic.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
And let it be specialized, Like if you have a
program teaching, web, android,iot at the same, no like focus
on one?
Oh yes.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
And go deep.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
Yeah, go deep.
Like, focus on one thing sothat they're skilled.
I think I'd love if Mpesa, theteams, come and you're asking,
like they don't want to do workduring the week.
They're supposed to build anMVP.
They tell them they've alreadybuilt a product.
They ask to see if they're likewhat's going on, like it's your
project, like if you even atleast have the files on your
email.

(01:13:00):
Yeah, like, give them one day,give them one day taking this
idea building it on MVP.
So, even if them even if it'shigh school have the like the
science congress project, like,have them build a project and
then teach them the tech forwhatever solutions they want to
build.
Because, yeah, learning me, Ionly have learned Android, AI,

(01:13:21):
python when I was starting in2014.
I started with Android firstand mastered it first.
So if those programs peoplelearning starting earlier, they
should focus on one thing If youfind a program trying to teach
everyone something, someone,everything, it's a red flag.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
So you get to JQuad first year, you start
introduction to everything.
How do you feel about thatexperience?

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
The point of disconnect was like everyone
else was doing that, get goodgrades, get a job.
I was like I'm here for the AI,for math and because already in
tech I'm already, I'm justlooking for opportunities in
tech already.
While everyone else is tryingto focusing on the classwork, me
I'm looking for events outside,like even inside GQuad.

(01:14:10):
I'm getting invited to speak atthe Google IELTS standard
because I'm active in the techscene.
I'm always looking foropportunities outside the
classroom with people inindustry and interact, and I
knew I wasn't going in the longrun I wasn't going to end up in
the insurance piece, becausethere's that thing about
academic professional papers foractuaries and not.
So the thing, like there's afunny thing that happened.

(01:14:32):
Like there are people in myclass who are struggling for the
first of benches in a classroom.
Like that, never, that didn'thappen.
And then I was like againstanding up things.
Like like the entire classroomis empty, no one wants to
contribute, no one wants tosound stupid, like providing a
bad answer, like where is theguy?

(01:14:53):
Like offering an answer andanswering.
And people thought my class wassmarter than them and they kept
asking for my assignments, likeafter, like whatever assignment
was due, like they kept askingfor my in the group chat.
But then me I was done withassignments, like before
everyone else, so I can go backto building and run right now,
like whenever I got, like I wasdone.
And it was people in my classthought I was smarter than them,

(01:15:15):
but I was not smart me.
It was like I knew what Iwanted I was doing.
I was doing my classwork earlyand fast, you know, so I can go
and find opportunities outsidethe classroom where everyone
else was focusing on class.
So there's that difference.
Whenever an event is happeningat IHOP, they're like how are

(01:15:38):
you going all the way from Jujzato Gongro for an event?
Because they want to be part ofthe ecosystem.
They want to be active on thingsto happen.
And then after those, you knowthey have long breaks after the
summer break.
So yeah, the summer on thingsto happen, and then after those
you know they have like longbreaks after like a fall season,
so yeah, so the summer break.
I've been playing around withchatbots for a while.

(01:15:59):
There's a program by Nailab andUNFP Kenya asking for new
readers to build on sexualhealth, and we apply.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
This is year 20?
16.
16, okay.
That's when we met, I thinkthat's when I was hanging around
.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
I have two things.
Whenever I leave the house, Inever want to go back.
So whenever I'm out forsomething, it's usually.
I usually left for the demo dayfor the thing I was mentoring
at, and when it ends on Saturday, I'm like let's go to IHOP,
let's see what's happeningaround that IHOP.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
And then I find there's an Atlassian user group
event and I'm like yeah, useBitMarket, Let me join in.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
So I was like today probably I'm even less active
than I was then Because youwanted, like I knew, the hack to
getting things happening isletting people in an industry
know you exist and know yourskill set.
So, even before.
Even before, like, I knew evenSam Gishu.
So Gishu was running a program.
I even knew him before theycame to J-Code for the roadshow.

(01:16:56):
I knew the project was runningand we got funding, and I think
that Tell us about Sofibotplease.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
I know you've told this story several times, but I,
of course.

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
Sofibot is AI, artificial intelligence, to
answer your questions on sexualand reproductive health.
Yes, I just said sexual andreproductive health, Because
this side of the world it'sawkward and hard for people to
talk about sexual health.
So, when the call for action was, there's a lady called Sophie
whose life gets messed upbecause she didn't know enough
about sexual health.
We're calling all innovators tobuild solutions to help solve

(01:17:36):
for sexual health.
Even if it's information onconnecting youths to services
and here I'm playing around withbots and I'm like bots can be
used to provide informationsecurely.
The information is as per theuser wants, Like come ask a
question, get answers and youcan make it anonymous, make it
safe, and that's how Sophiebought us Even the name.
Sophie was named after aprogram.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Sophie is a lady's name.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Yeah, so one of the marketing material had a
character called Sophie.
One of the hours like asking usto apply for the program was
called.
So I applied.
I even like I know guys in theindustry.
I even like I know guys in theindustry.
I even know who's going to vetyour application.
I know a couple of guys.
So one of my aside fromSangujuru, josephine Mwangi from
Nailab, I knew her.

(01:18:20):
I used to hang around.
You just have like a Fridaylike hangouts, like drinks and
whatnot, pizza and stuff, pizza,yeah, pizza and soda.
So I used to like hang outaround there.
So I knew the space reallyreally, really well.
So when I was applying I wasn'tlike a stranger applying you
had the connections.
Yeah, and even new.
Even before I apply I have tohave like a fast, fast prototype

(01:18:41):
of a product built and yeah andapplied.
We got funding and I thinkafter I got funding, school
resumes I went to a total ofthree classes then because it
was commuting once you get intoa program, like usually like
training sessions afterwards.
So each time I had a choicebetween class or a training
session, I always went to thetraining session and then after

(01:19:04):
the first three months, I thinkthe thing that broke the camel's
back was there was an eventhappening at Safari Park so the
Kenya Health Federation wasrunning an event and they showed
up to an exam in a suit.
I think yeah, and then after Idid the exam I was like it was a
cut.
I was like, yeah, but I can'tkeep doing this.
Since then I dropped.
I never, I've, never, I'venever, I've never, I've never

(01:19:28):
looked back.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
So you never went back to.
Never, never went back younever defied, you just walked
out.
Yeah, dropped out.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
That's the true meaning of dropping out.
And then again, the systems areso bad.
Again, jq, your systems are sobad.
Every time I had exams I had togo and clear out to the DCFS
Because I defied a year earlier.
I ended up getting the recordsand I'm back in school.
I even called before I wentback to school after the
deferment, like which processshould I take to join back after

(01:19:56):
deferment?
They're like oh, just come upand register with everyone.
But then, once you do registerwith everyone, there are always
problems in the system.

Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
So yeah, like Because they're taking the exam, have
you paid the school fees?

Speaker 2 (01:20:11):
Yeah, there's always a mess.
And then again, I think it'sone of those privileges you do
well, you think the world opensup for you, but then it's a
whole new session.
So, people, if you see someonewho hasn't graduated, it's not
even academic performance.
The bureaucracies in suchinstitutions are so bad because,
first they, the bureaucraciesin such institutions, are so bad

(01:20:32):
because, first, they have tocater to a lot of people and
second, I think the guys runningthe program are not motivated
enough to smoothen theexperience for everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:20:40):
So campuses are Do you think in future you'll open
your own academy or campus?
With a better experience With abetter experience.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
I'll consider.
I think there are too manypeople doing that also, so I
have, like there's one program Itried to help like running,
offering, like tech and thelikes, I'll consider, like I'll
contribute.
If there are any tech focusedones where they need like a
mentor in person, I'm open,willing to come talk and offer
guidance.
We'll see, we'll see, we'll see.

(01:21:10):
Because, yeah, education is awhole, because I've seen how
hard it is to market and selland most people are selling
direct jobs after graduation,which isn't always a reality.
So you have to build out apipeline for how you actually
plan to deliver what you offer.

(01:21:30):
But then again, so the bestprogram I've learned it's look
at Innovate Kenya, look at GIM.
There's a program called GlobalMinimum and then a program
called Innovate Kenya.
That's the best program I'veseen in the country.
And this is done by who?
So the company is called GlobalMinimum, it's an NGO, it's
Global Minimum and the programis called Innovate Kenya, where

(01:21:50):
kids in high school proposeideas.
They have a $500 budget for aprototype and within a week you
sit down with them and trainthem.
Yeah.
So even until now, like previousalumni, previous mentees from
that program, keep reaching outto me and asking for help and
asking for tech help and forsome, you see like the questions
are getting more technical, sothey're becoming better techies

(01:22:12):
and they're craft and they'relike, so that's one of the best
programs I like around here,nice, nice.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
So if I want to use a selfie boat, where is that
persona?
Because of course, it's sexualeducation but, at what point do
I say, okay, maybe I need totalk to Sophie, but at what age
gap are you addressing?

Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
you know those things we've been asked that question.
We even ask do you offer ageappropriate questions, like if a
user is 15?
So no, the only safety toSophie, but she's limited to
your curiosity.
So if you want to ask aboutcondoms, ask.
If you want to ask about Xtopic, ask.
Our job is to understand yourquestion and answer them.
So far, our target is 13 to 20,13 to 25.

(01:22:59):
But then we're gettingquestions from older
demographics.
So we're getting questionsaround menopause.
We're getting questions onlibido after getting a pregnancy
.
So our age group is also.
We have an outlier age group,aside from guys who want to, who
are serious.
People who there are biggerproblems around sexual health

(01:23:20):
aside from teenage concernsaround sexual health and
preventing teenage pregnanciesand the like, and we need to
address those.
There are a lot of people whohave questions around fertility.
There are a lot of people whohave questions around the gender
, like if they're trying to geta child, how do they determine
what actually determines thegender of the child?
So those questions that keepcoming up, but so far it's

(01:23:41):
around 13 to 25 is the ageyou're targeting.

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
Yeah, so that's very important.
Something else, maybe this I'masking from out of my curiosity
With Sophie Boots did it evolvenow, after seven years?

Speaker 2 (01:23:59):
Yes, yes, yes.
So you should go to that.
So in 2016, we were prettyterrible at answering questions
because the technology wasrule-based, where you had to
predefine a question and expectan answer.
You might can come and say hiwith H-I, but someone else can
come and say hi with typed asH-A-E, so if you're not put that
onto the system, you shouldn'tbe able to understand and

(01:24:20):
provide an answer.
We used to have a defaultresponse, for that is it was.
Let me think about it.
Whenever something wasn'tdefining our rules, that was a
problem and it kept botheringour users.
It even stopped growth for awhile.
We got about 3,000 users, about6,000 questions and that's all,

(01:24:42):
and we were at a turning point.
Do we at a crossroads?
Do we simplify our solutionwhere it's press one for STIs,
press two for Nini forinformation on sexual health, or
do we figure out how to answerquestions?
The problem is called naturallanguage, bro.
And I was like the biggeropportunity to learn and grow

(01:25:07):
and apply and be profitable andbe valuable is by solving NLP.
So from then on I got intolearning what was state of the
art then in solving NLPs andI've grown with the ecosystem.
It hit me like it was still anunsolved problem and we evolved
the technology from likerule-based to something called

(01:25:28):
LSTM.
That's what Cool Transit wasusing then and to now we have a
language model.
We have transformers, whatAkina CharGPT are doing.
We deployed this version ofSophieBot that uses a
transformer, the same technologybehind CharGPT, so CharGPT, and
the CharGPT means globalpre-trained transformer.
So transformer is a type of aneural network that performs

(01:25:52):
really well with sequential data, like conversations, like text,
like my name is Iving oh hi,nice to meet you, iving.
My name is Ophibon.
So those type of data, thismodel performed really well and
we deployed our version lastJune June before charge GPT
dropped in November because theyhad released the paper GPT.

(01:26:12):
Was it last year?
Last year, okay, yeah, lastyear.
So this is most last year.
So we figured out the solutionlast time.
We figured it out like twoyears before, but then it wasn't
trained on our data set.
So we had like 30,000 plusconversations on that old,
underperforming model.
But we had about 3,000 morequestions where we used to train

(01:26:33):
new technology, like does thistechnology work for us?
No, let's try the next one.
So we had to move from 3,000cleaned questions to 30,000 so
we can train the new technologyand deploy it.
So that took us until June lastyear.
That's when the new technologywas deployed and once that
happened we were lucky enough.
The hype around bots startsagain.

(01:26:55):
Charging PT is released andpeople are interested in what
bots can do, and that's why wehad a new breath of air of life.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
And started doing things again, and it's good that
you have clarified that,because there was a time you
guys went silent and then, ofcourse, ah, we went silent, and
then, of course, chargy PTbecame global this January.

Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
And these guys have been releasing weekly updates.

Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
I don't know if you know this, but they have made
actually even those guys whodismissed bots and looked down
upon bots actually rethink.
Every other company now isinfusing the chat GPT enterprise
version into their modules andtools to make sense or to
complement what people can do.
So your usage has increasedimmensely.

(01:27:44):
Now that people understand nowthe technology, you have to live
with yes.

Speaker 2 (01:27:48):
So even the hype, like when you started in 2016,.
Those are bot hype becauseFacebook had just introduced
bots on Messenger, that bot hypedied and then ChanchiPT like
restarted that bot again.
So we were there like rightthere.
Like luck is opportunity whenopportunity meets preparedness.
So we were just right with thatfor another hype cycle and
we've been riding that sincethen.

(01:28:09):
So people are interested in usand people are excited about it,
funny enough.
So we talked to I talked toGraham in 2016 when we were
starting on like how do youdeploy Sophie Bot on SMS?
But then the bugger meant youwere like you're not good at
answering questions.
Yeah, so this will wait.
And then after June happenedthe next time, we got funding

(01:28:30):
this year.
So after June last year, we gota new round of funding June
this year.
And then there's a thing likethere's a point where when you
announce here you're gettingfunding, yes, but then there's a
delay between when actual fundsare going to your account.
So around August, when actualfunds hit our accounts, we went
live on SMS the next, exactlythe next week.

(01:28:51):
So we've been on on SMS thenext, exactly the next week.
So we've been live on SMS andpeople on Instagram this is 2G
technology, yeah so people onInstagram are more excited on
Sophie Boton SMS than SophieBoton WhatsApp yeah like on June
last year, we were only onWhatsApp.

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
Why is that?

Speaker 2 (01:29:04):
reason?
Probably it's it's way more.
It's way more cheaper and it'smore novel.
Like it's, it's an AIapplication on SMS.
It's the first time it'shappened, so a lot of people are
excited about that.
So we tell people.
We run back-to-back ads Oneasking people to go use Sofibot
on WhatsApp, the other oneasking people to go use Sofibot
on SMS and more hits are comingon through on SMS.

(01:29:26):
I think it's because we provideit for free to all three and
whatnot, because it's providedfor free and whatnot.
So that's our edge that we candeploy our AI model anywhere.
So once we got funding, weexpanded aside from our app and
Telegram.
We now support app, telegramand Facebook Messenger.
We now support WhatsApp and SMS, and that's what our last round

(01:29:49):
of funding is going towards.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Have you checked out USSD?

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
That goes on cost.
So, on using building on top ofAfrica's talking, you can make
that SMS number toll free.
Yeah, so people can text highto 236 23629 right now text high
and you can get an answer fromSophie.
So it's purely free.
If you're on a Zafaricom lineto talk, so there's a cost added

(01:30:16):
cost to it for this in order tomake that as accessible as
possible, because on all theplatforms there's a data cost.
So that's all rule-basedversion of Sophie.
But when you downloaded the app,the knowledge base came with
the rules, came on the app andit kept loading and whatnot.
So right now people have youhave to be online to use Feebot

(01:30:36):
on the app and all these otherplatforms that you're on.
So it's free.
And to use on SMS, you can evenuse it.
You don't even have like an SMSplan on.
So it's more accessible forguys.
The next step for us and whatour funding is handling right
now, is we want to support morelocal languages.
Because she answers questionswell.

(01:30:58):
The problem is it's in Englishand she works live on SMS.
Now can we support locallanguages, can you?

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
ask Swahili is widely spoken in Africa.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
So we're working with the CBO in Nyanza to support
Swahili, luya and Luwo.
So by January next year we'llsupport those three languages.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
Very nice, that sounds like a good progress.
So you're saying we.
Who is we?

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
Oh sorry, so I used to have a large team but then I
bought them out of the companybecause there's that change in
vision.
Like do we?
There's that differences invision?
Where do we still try andfigure out how to answer
questions, or do we go for alow-hanging fruit where it's a
menu-based option?
I was like, no, there's moreopportunity for growth if we

(01:31:40):
figure out the technology.
And I doubled down on that.
So at that point I bought outan agent from the company.
So it's me at this at thismoment, the most part.
So we're funded by a group byVilgro.
Vilgro are an acceleratorspecifically focused on health
companies.
So right now it's me, I bounceideas to the team at Vilgro and

(01:32:01):
then right now the addition tothe team is the.
So the working with the Colt andKenya so those are the three
guys we're working with and,aside from that, unfp has always
been A constant partner For us.
So, united Nation PopulationFund they are the ones who
funded us back in 2016.
Oh nice, so, yeah so even ouranswers From On, sophie, but are
not from our minds.
I don't like All the answersfrom.

(01:32:21):
They are from.
They have a peer mentorcurriculum when they used to
teach we used to teach aboutsexual health, so those are the
complement, what they teach yeah, we do so.
Right now it's me and thepartners with Velgro, tempea and
the United Nations PopulationFund nice yeah, so how many, how
many user base do you haveright now?
yeah, so we have 3,000 new usersfor the last, the last five

(01:32:45):
months.
So 3,000 users the last fivemonths they five months They've
asked about 5,000 questions.
About 1,500 of them are on SMS,so about a couple of hundreds
of users purely on SMS asking usquestions.
They're excited about those twoplatforms, sms and WhatsApp.

(01:33:05):
So it's interesting we keeprevving that.
We have, I think, an engine ofgrowth.
So literally we were quiet andthen I guess we started like
actively making noise again yeahour engine of growth is
restarting nice, nice.

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
So do you just address, you know, is it the
question, are they gender basedor just general questions?

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
it's general, yeah it's across the genders funny
enough.
It's like we general questionsacross the gender.
It's across the genders Funnyenough.
We have more men asking usquestions About female questions
, Both, Both, so you can't know.
It's a man exactly asking,Exactly asking, but then from
the context of the question youcan get.
So I don't know if I should saythis.
A lot of men are worried aboutthe dimensions of their

(01:33:51):
equipment and so people tellthem don't worry, the other
equipment expand and control.
So we have loads of thosequestions.
In context.
We have questions about howwomen respond to sexual stimuli,
Like how do I know?
So yeah, they're ready or not?
Yeah, so a lot of answers onthat.
We have a couple of questionson consent and the like.

Speaker 1 (01:34:15):
That's complicated, man.
I've had those discussionsdifferent.
Yeah, because even right now,with the equality discussions
and where women are treatedequally, it becomes confusing
Like how do I know you'reconsenting to this?
Because also, as we grow up andhow people have been used to,

(01:34:36):
even in our culture, is thatsometimes no might mean yes, yes
might mean no, but of coursenowadays it's like no means no,
yes means yes.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
You know, I thought this was a myth.
Like there are people whowanted to be like, who want that
insistence, like all that itmeans.
I'm like no, like you be clearand honest with your party.
Like do not play games when itcomes to consent, because there
are some, it's an exception tothe rule, but then if your
partner wants you to like,they'll let you know and that

(01:35:08):
culture needs to change.
There are some.
Yeah, me thought it was amazing.
Like now you're making that upto like force consent on human.

Speaker 1 (01:35:16):
But yeah, the people who are shaking, people who are
shaking.

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):
If you mean it more, like, no, like, it's a new day.
If you're interested, like, beopen Because, yeah, mixed
signals.

Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
That's a hard discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:35:30):
But then we have a couple of questions.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
You know, in Nairobi it's easier, but if you go
outside Nairobi it becomes morecomplicated because of exposure,
the culture.
You know how people are broughtup and this begs me to ask you
have you faced culturalresistance in this?

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
because also sexual discussions are not so open in
African culture so the only theresistance we have is a couple
of answers, and we make them so.
We want to Support more thanjust Heterosexual relations and
we have answers that cater pastHeterosexual relations.
So the only point of fiction isIs that, like somebody ask, ask

(01:36:10):
what coitus is?
We have all the different wayspeople have coitus, not just
phallus or vulva.
I'm not doing too because I'mtrying to obscure.
I'm trying to obscure, I don'ttry to be how open you are.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
So not all coitus, please pause, because what
you've just said actuallyexplains the cultural upbringing
, because sexual conversation isnot always openly, because it's
considered either vulgar ortaboo or, you know, because you

(01:36:47):
don't want to sound out of youknow context because, of age and
who is listening and whatnot.
Yeah, and also there is whatpeople believe in, and sometimes
changing that is really, reallyhard.
It's the hardest thing actuallyin the world to do.
Forget about math, changingwhat people believe in amukasa,

(01:37:08):
that's true.
Even God is trying, or maybeyou know.
Remember the Babylon story.
The War of Babylon, when peopletried to build something.

Speaker 2 (01:37:19):
A tower to go to the heavens and they're like yeah
we're putting you in differentlanguage.

Speaker 1 (01:37:24):
God had to do something about it, because now
people believed actually theycould go there, but ideally.
That's how hard it is.
But of course I'm sure Iunderstand what you're saying,
that people are thinking in acertain way and now it doesn't
sound actually similar to whatpeople believe, To what they're
expecting yeah, because we havecomprehensive answers to cater

(01:37:46):
to more people who are not justheterosexual.

Speaker 2 (01:37:48):
So we cater to more than that.
Even ask us what coitus is andwe answer all the different ways
.
Many different types of couplesactually have coitus and some
people have offense, even likeon Twitter.
Take offense.
Yeah, even post a screenshotwith the answers to.
And I'm like, yeah, that's acomprehensive answer.
That's what we aim for to makeeveryone feel comfortable and

(01:38:10):
provide answers to everyone, nomatter how you want to express
your sexuality.
So that's the only point ofconflict.
And when someone comes and asksus a question innocently or
tries and tests, like on a wage,and then they're like, oh, you
people are supporting queerpeople, like, yeah, that's why,
because they exist and we haveto provide answers for them,
they also have our sexual healthneeds are, regardless of what

(01:38:30):
your cultural beliefs are orwhether or not you believe they
should have access to sexualhealth information.
So, yeah, that's the point ofconflict we have with people.

Speaker 1 (01:38:42):
So Sofibot is meant to serve the whole world, or
just Africa?

Speaker 2 (01:38:46):
It's Africa, yeah, it's Africa and Kenya in general
.
And then it's us putting thatcontent on Zohib.
But it's to acknowledge theyexist and they have sexual
health needs and they needsupport for sexual and they're
at more risk than like, not evenlike than heterosexual.
They're even at more risk of alack from a lack of sexual

(01:39:10):
health information.
It's recognizing they exist andthey need information.
But aside from that, we've beenasked questions in 150 or 100
and up.
We've been asked questions fromall over the world.

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
So Bona, ivan, you have talked about everything and
anything and you have gotten towhere you build a selfie board.
Is sexual.
Uh, you know a solution?
Yeah, right, uh, you, you areyou actively?
You know someone?

(01:39:41):
Have you ever gotten into arelationship?
Because that's, that's part andparcel of life.
Right, yeah, it, it is yes, Isaw you, and the reason why I'm
asking this is because I saw youtweet some nice tweet, but I
was like, okay, I'll ask when Iget a chance.
Oh yeah, swelling.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Oh.
So context is, what happened inNovember is a lot of tech
heroes were like, oh no, it wasa commercial on Twitter like, oh
, watch it.
So I told people it's better tobe in love.
Better to.
It's better to be in love andit's better to be in love and
have losses than than to havestayed at home watching
embarrassing things.
Yeah, so, yeah, nothingrelieving about this moment.

(01:40:20):
So again, it's what probablycomes with my territory, so like
, so he both comes fast.
So, yeah, I have been in flings.
Yes, I am active and, in a way,safely active.
I'm safely active.
I've been in flings.
Yes, I am active and safelyactive.
I'm safely active.
I've been in flings, yes, butthen I think it comes with the
territory.
Like one day I'm all over theplace moving around.

(01:40:44):
The next three weeks I'mlocking myself home to get
something done.
So I can't always be there toform a relationship.
But I'm also a difficult personto deal with.
You come late to a date and I'mlike no, that doesn't sit right
with me, so that's a thing.
So I'm not dating at the moment,but, yeah, I've had a couple of

(01:41:05):
flings.
Safely, I've had a couple offlings.
It's important to be safe outthere.
Pulling out does not work as weanswer, as Sophie Bolt says, so
it's very important to be safeout there for many reasons.

Speaker 1 (01:41:22):
So of course, that's fine.
What is your take on age andsexual activities?

Speaker 2 (01:41:35):
Okay, yeah, Okay.
So whether we like it or not,like teenagers, we'll experiment
.
So what you have to do is givethem the right information to
make sure they are safe then, sothat their entire lives isn't
messed up because they wanted toexpress themselves sexually.
So that's point one.
Point two is we need to modifychild molestation laws.

(01:42:00):
So if it's two people under 18who consensually have sex, the
law treats that as molestation.
It's child abuse, it'smolestation.
And who pays?

Speaker 1 (01:42:12):
child abuse, it's molestation.

Speaker 2 (01:42:13):
And who pays the price?
It goes to the gentleman, theteen boy, which is unfair, which
doesn't make sense.
So we need to add, like anaddendum, so Romeo and Juliet
laws where it recognizes thatit's two people providing
consent who are under the age.
And then also we need toprovide them services, provide
them information so that theycan delay the it's called the
sexual debut as much as possible.

(01:42:34):
But if they choose toexperiment, actually they do it,
they do it safely.
So all this opposition tocharges where they don't provide
condoms to kids, they don'tteach children what condoms are
or how to use them, that ismisguided, because we think this
is a problem that comes withour generation.
But then the generation beforeus, they had us while they were

(01:42:57):
still that gap from primaryschool to high school, that's
when most of us were born, yeah,and our parents are so they're
the firstborns.
Firstborns.
Yeah, our parents are obsessedabout not recreating that
without giving us the righttools and information.
I think I was given the talkaround sexual health when after
high school and I was like yo,this is a bit too late.
Like you already know how comeI wasn't active with that, but

(01:43:20):
then, yeah, like this is a bittoo late.
I had an aunt like I'm 28 now.
I had an aunt call me the otherday.
It was one of those.
You know it's graduation season, so it was one of those.
You know it's graduationseasons so.
And then, whenever it happens,they usually call you to ask you
what are you doing?
What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:43:35):
is it like rubbing it on your?

Speaker 2 (01:43:36):
face.
No, no, they ask you what areyou doing?
What are you doing?
I told them I'm in a good placenow.
Even now it's even better.
We're getting funded, thingsare happening, and then so, and
then there's this person coming.
Like you know, when you getmoney, you know they're also
girls.
I'm like you know, I'm 28.
Like, I know how to navigate.
Like I know, pesa niya kombunisiya kupeleka girlfriend, siya
kupeleka girlfriend.

Speaker 1 (01:44:00):
Not marriage.
We call it what Dawari, dawari,it's all dawari.

Speaker 2 (01:44:03):
Like yoni pesa, yoni pesa, Yoni, conversation, like
it's a bit too too late for, toolate for that.
So I know too far and no onecares about my company more than
, yeah, more than me.
So we have those.
I think most parents are doingthat late.
Uh, and it should.
People shouldn't say like aschool shouldn't do that, like

(01:44:23):
it's a theme for because parentsare not handling that
conversation, you, you too, foryou, even you too, it's awkward
and hard for you to have theseconversations.

Speaker 1 (01:44:32):
Do you think it's now that you're in sexual education
?
Do you think it's right toteach people queer education in
school?

Speaker 2 (01:44:41):
So, whether we like it or not, queer people will
exist.
We need to make sure they aresafe.
So the point one is to notvilify or cast safe.
So the point one is to notvilify or stigmatize them.
So that's the thing.
That's like going to anall-abay school.
The biggest, the mostembarrassing thing that could

(01:45:04):
ever happen to you is if it wasrumored you're into.
So point one is stigma.
Point two is if things arestigmatised, people will wait
when they're in a position ofpower to get into queer
religious.
So there are a lot of likecases and it still happens now,
like prefects hooking and it'sthree, three, three whole weeks.

(01:45:28):
You're in a.
You're in a boys school ofwhich, like some, some people
are queer.
So if you need to provide, say,spaces where people can openly
and honestly express themselvessexually so that it limits abuse
, people know this is actuallyabuse, actually abuse, and you
provide like outlets for peopleto express that, you can't abuse

(01:45:52):
second ways where people don'twait where they're in positions
of power to express themselvessexually, like as in queer
people, or to other people whoare in bigger, bigger positions
of power to exploit younger,younger, younger people because
they're not openly enough toexpress themselves sexually, but
then that give that.
I'm not conflating being queerwith being a predator, because

(01:46:15):
those are two different things,because it comes from the
recognition that queer peopleexist and they need service.
The last point is being queerit comes with its own risk
sexual health risk.
Queer people need to be awareof the risk and how to protect

(01:46:36):
themselves while they're doingqueer relations.
If they get infected, how dothey get help?
How do they get services sothat the disease doesn't keep
spreading, infection doesn'tkeep spreading?
Third thing is to dispel thenotion that there are diseases
for queer people and there arediseases for everyone.

(01:46:57):
No diseases are they spread.
As long as they can spreadthrough sexual intercourse, they
can spread across the ecosystem.
So that's one of the some ofthe few things we need to dispel
and it will solve a lot ofthings down the line, because
every few weeks in boy schoolthere's always a scandal or
there's somebody in a positionof power is and it's not

(01:47:21):
conflating like.
Being queer doesn't make you,but some people, because they
wait when they're in a positionof power to express and letting
them know early on, like you,being as you are, it's perfectly
fine, it's perfectly fine.
We do not let any like causeit's a rule in high school.
Like you're not getting laid inhigh school, no one is getting

(01:47:43):
laid, so don't do anything atall at this level.
So that's the dynamics we needto fix and in the extreme of
cases, you know it's down tothat.
It's down to lynching, likelynching queer people.
It's not a solution to who theyare, because it's if you like.
Do you like coffee or tea?

(01:48:04):
If you like coffee, no matterhow much someone, if you like
coffee, you like coffee.

Speaker 1 (01:48:08):
A mokasa is not as simple as you're putting it,
because here, here we aretalking about and we have had
this conversation with a coupleof guys before there are two
things I told you.
You cannot really.

Speaker 3 (01:48:19):
It's really hard as much as you want this to change
it's hard.

Speaker 1 (01:48:25):
One is belief, another one is religion, another
one is who someone is.
That one is what you're talkingabout, and you're ignoring
these two, which are veryingrained since you're born, how
you're taught, the environmentyou're in.
But it's a good way you'relooking at it that education
actually could mean a lot ofthings for someone and could

(01:48:48):
actually avoid all these things.
Maybe, the debate is at whatstage?
Because, also, even you can betaught this too early and it
confuses you altogether Because,like in US I hear now, toddlers
or people in class one or gradeone are taught such things, so
you're confusing that child.
Also, there have been claimspeople are being infused with

(01:49:09):
hormones without their consent.
All these are discussions I'veseen, actually online and also
on big stage, so they're notjust rumours, it's something
that is actually happening.
In Netherlands, I've seen suchcases and I think now in Africa.
Maybe we can approach this in amore better way with these
lessons right and given in thatspace, maybe something that we

(01:49:33):
need to have.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
So if you look at queer people, they have tons,
endless examples of how queerpeople have existed in culture.
I think the problem is thewhite man made us unlearn a lot
of things that are very, veryAfrican and we now conflate what
is what is religion to what isafrican, because that religion

(01:49:58):
isn't african at its core.
So we need to investigate ourroots.
And thirdly, is so some peopleare, especially in some spaces,
they're trying to manufacturelike outrage, because in the
expression like, like, like,like, I think you're talking
about trans children.
Across the US, people wanttrans children to express
themselves, but then no parentunder their mind will let a

(01:50:19):
child undergo specificprocedures before they are a
specific age.
So they tried it with queerpeople.
Queer people covers transpeople.
So okay, yeah, I think queerpeople covers trans people.
So okay, yeah, they tried tolike like people who, uh, uh, uh
, I like using queers like ageneral term.

(01:50:39):
They tried like the laws of theworld on one front.
So they're targeting like transpeople and then they're
manufacturing this entireoutrage around like people who
want people who are trans areagain like are, are, are, are,
again like are, are arepedophiles, like.
It's the same conflationthey're trying to.
They're used on.
So there's, there'smanufactured outrage, but then
there's also concerns forparents, like your parents want
their children to expressthemselves as they are, but then

(01:51:00):
they won't let them do the lifealtering procedures until
they're at a specific are at aspecific age, and that's what.
Like, there's a consensus onthat.
Even parents of trans they want, like, they let them wear
dresses and whatnot, but then,like, when it comes to like,
blocking, blocking, blocking,nini, it's and it's.
It's a thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:51:20):
It's quite interesting.
It's quite interesting, and Idon't think we can exhaust it in
this discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:51:26):
The point is I wanted to make is is, like we need to
have like open conversation,open and honest conversations,
not not jaded, like I shouldn'tcome to the table with
preconceived notions on on.
So we should even have likesomeone who's who's trans on the
table to have a conversationwith them and and their
experience and how and how theyfeel and when they knew that
you're by they.
Like I do not want to expressthis because, yeah, so we need

(01:51:47):
to have, rather than coming totables with preconceived ideas
of what's the experience oftrans people, and that will move
it forward.
Yeah, that will move forward,because it's perfectly
comfortable for a comedian todress, to make a joke, but then

(01:52:08):
for performances.
It's now becoming so.
Yeah, it wasn't an issue untilthe last few years.
People are this, their biggerhorses are bigger than us trying
to drive the conversation andwe'll see it soon enough.

Speaker 1 (01:52:24):
I do think the reason that it has become a big issue
until few years is because alsothe queer community, as you call
it, feels like they're notrecognized, or they should be
recognized more than everyoneelse.
They should have betterexperiences than everyone else.
What do you think that actuallymade it pop up?

Speaker 2 (01:52:44):
so in the conversations that's been
happening, it's like so peoplehave been sharing statistics
that more people have beenidentifying statistics that more
people have been identifying asqueer more recently, but that's
a consequence of stigma.
If you reduce stigma, morepeople will openly express that.
It's like left-handednessBefore that people were being If

(01:53:04):
you start using your left hand,people can't stop using your
left the actual social sticks tostop you from expressing who
you are.
And the more social stigmas theactual social uh sticks and you
need to to stop you fromexpressing who you are.
And the more like socialstigmas, the more social norms
and attitudes change, the morepeople express themselves.
So what's happening?
It's?
It's like people are coming onthis tradition, like people
exist and we and exist in ourlives and they shouldn't hide

(01:53:28):
themselves for who they arebecause they've been hiding for
years and years and runningunderground communities.
So that's what's changing andpeople chief are that.
But then you know again, I'mstill braving this.
So you notice the people somepeople talking about like queer
people expressing themselves.
Don't want to see someone wholook like you and me in an
advertisement or like this onewho is getting upset about a

(01:53:51):
sweater company that has a blackwoman and a white woman, so the
other underlying cultural normsthat they don't.
For me.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
I brought this up, which is very important when you
think about it, and we can talkabout different things actually
when it comes to this, and oneof them would be queer right.
But there are so many other.

Speaker 2 (01:54:11):
There's anti-semitic, there's black, versus white
yeah there is a privilege versusless privileged there's
somebody who put a board like anentire board for a, for a
restaurant chain.
It's all women.
I'm like.
What's the problem like?

Speaker 1 (01:54:25):
yeah, so the the problem that most people have,
and I think even at least forafricans, uh, at least for
africans, one of the things thatactually people have, and I
think even at least for Africans, at least for Africans, one of
the things that actually peoplehave always had a problem with
me included is that we aremaking one issue to be so big
and then we ignore everythingelse right.
Like right now people are sayingoh you know, people should not

(01:54:45):
be Jewish versus everyone else.
It should be like everyoneshould have their rights.
Because everyone is human right.

Speaker 2 (01:54:52):
Before you categorize you know this Jewish, this Arab
, this black, this white?

Speaker 1 (01:54:58):
The foundation is human right.
I totally get that.
And do we now ignore all theproblems and now focus on these?
One problem and assume thatother problems never existed.
Yeah, totally get that.
And I'll give you an examplewith Africans.
Right, Africans are no problemwith you, know your sexuality,
as long as your sexuality doesnot interfere with mine, which

(01:55:18):
is Obund right.
We believe you.
Amukasa is Amukasa because I amMike right.
And Amukasa doesn't have todisappear or be discriminated or
be put aside for me to exist.
But now it's the same thing thatyou're talking about, the
religion, that what we callreligion today is not African.

(01:55:41):
But even religion in Africa hadits own concepts that are
actually aligned with the Obund.
And since you're in theeducation sector, I think those
are some of the concepts thatactually could change even the
dynamics of sexuality.
It could actually advise better, it could actually present a
different concept about all thissexuality and whatnot.

(01:56:08):
So that's the concept thatactually I feel like we could
address, because, you see, Ilook at Africa as a place where
most of the things have not beenexplored, if you think about it
, and most of the things thatyou have explored, even in the
60 or 70 years that Africa hashad its independence, as they
call it, our history, has beenerased.

(01:56:29):
That's one of the reasons why Ido this podcast, because, if
you look at it, I don't know howmany times you've done
interviews across the world, andI know you've done a couple of
them Maybe three minutes is whatgets to be heard, or zero
minutes.
After hours of conversationsright, but for me, I'm saying,

(01:56:51):
any conversation we have hereremains as history, remains as
what we believe in.
We also learn from each other.
I'm looking at it from thatperspective that actually,
sophie Boat could advise thewhole world how to educate
people about this withoutleaning on this is it or this is
it?
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:57:11):
Yeah, that's fair because, yeah.
So the problem, the problem Ihate about talking to people
outside the continent about thisproblem is there's an over
insistence on playing up the weshare we share, like what's the
sadistic core of teenagepregnancy in.
Kenya, but rather than justsaying it's awkward and hard to
talk about.
In Kenya, like in thiscontinent, like I can say about
that, people absolutely get it.
Outside Africa there's there'san insistence on playing up the,

(01:57:34):
the oh.
You only started like writing.
You started writing code at 19.

Speaker 3 (01:57:37):
Oh, there's a, there's a need to play up the
wishy-wishy.

Speaker 2 (01:57:46):
It's like other than like oh this is a problem too.

Speaker 1 (01:57:51):
That's very important because it reminds me of
something.
The reason I do what I do isbecause I realized maybe you
don't know why I do what I do.
Maybe I should tell you Irealized that Africa is the most
smartest guys.
But, as you say, the educationfor us is presented as a way out
of poverty.
I know the enemy is the poverty,no doubt about that.

(01:58:13):
But should we be poor?
You know, in the whole world,africa is the most richest by
all definitions.
Right?
We all know, you and I who havegone to school, that most of
the other continents existbecause of our resources.
Right, I'm not saying they'repoor.
I'm just saying if we put allthe Ulabalu aside and state the

(01:58:35):
facts, no, like how isSwitzerland the chocolate
capital of?
The world.
They don't have a single cocoatree.

Speaker 2 (01:58:43):
They don't have a single cocoa tree.
How are they the chocolatecapital of the world?

Speaker 1 (01:58:47):
If we have those conversations, we can say and
I'm not saying there's any, Idon't have anything against
anyone.
I'm just saying poverty is theenemy in Africa.
But should we be poor?
That's the question.
I'm trying to address, becauseif we remove the poverty then
we're able to address so manyother underlying things.
Even sexuality education shouldbe not an issue, because now we

(01:59:07):
have the resources, because mostof the molestation, most of the
choices are made out of thatdesperate situation where you
don't like, maybe a girl needs apad to have sex and then they
get HIV, which now their life ismessed up right, or pregnancy,
or you know STIs.

(01:59:27):
you know all these things.
So, as we think about all thesescenarios that actually prop
all these other problems thatyou need to solve, I realize
that we are the most smartestand the best way to go about
this is that how can we actuallyuse that, like you are doing,
and define the?
you know the process of spendingyour 16 years in college,

(01:59:50):
primary, wherever, and say, well, I know how to build this, let
me go and build it and then seehow the world receives it and I
will make a decision based onthat, which is so fascinating
when you think about it.
I don't know if you have everheard about this and that's how
I like looking at it, and thatdoesn't make you better or bad
than someone who has created it.
Maybe they have a reason.
Maybe if someone becomes alecturer, all in good, because

(02:00:13):
they contribute something.
But if you put all theseaspects together, then we find
the true power and the truemeaning of being an African.
And this also brings us towhereby.
Why do black Americans don'tlike coming back to Africa?
Now, when you get to that also,maybe it's lack of education,

(02:00:35):
because the way africa ispainted out there maybe it's not
the right way.
Maybe the education they gavethere is the wrong one.
And now when you see how allthese, now you see solutions
that actually you can build ontop of softboard and grow to be
some.
Some, you know, go to resourceyeah, absolutely, that makes
sense.

Speaker 2 (02:00:52):
Absolutely, that absolutely makes sense.
So the introduction to Africais the same as the white man,
like it's either a lion kingliving here you have a pet lion,
or you don't have food Likethere's an entire meme, or you
don't have food, like there's anentire meme you don't have food

(02:01:14):
or what it's crazy.
Africa is prone to inequalities,the same as where they live,
and they need to reform andlearn and learn and learn that.
And, yeah, we can be an outletfor that.
The good thing I like and itgoes across like the diaspora,
an outlet for that.
The good thing I like and thenit goes across the diaspora and

(02:01:34):
people like that is we retainedour sense of community.
Yes, yes, yes, which is sopowerful, very powerful.
It does make sense.
You get into a and don't say hito guys.
It's weird man it makes sense.
You don't know who lives nextdoor to you.
Even though you don't want totalk about it.
Like I think it's very foreignto people outside.

(02:01:56):
Like when they come to thisside of town, they're like oh,
there's a WhatsApp group forthis, you live in.

Speaker 1 (02:02:01):
And it's just normal.

Speaker 2 (02:02:02):
It's normal.
So, yeah, I think yeah, that'sthe thing we can start from,
like community ingrained in allof us, and yeah, that can be a
point of of of convergence andcan build on top of that.

Speaker 1 (02:02:13):
Absolutely.
So, Mukasa, that that was avery good conversation that you
have had and thank you forhonoring our our invite.
I know we have postponed thisfor a year but now it has
happened.
This is amazing.
I don't know what message youhave for our listeners.
You know, maybe I don't knowwhat message you have for our

(02:02:33):
listeners.
Maybe encourage them tosubscribe?

Speaker 2 (02:02:34):
Yeah, check out.

Speaker 1 (02:02:34):
Maybe check out our socials and our channels for
support and maybe parting shots.

Speaker 2 (02:02:42):
So I was even worried .
I was worried, like you and me,to start the program.
I was like history turns outbadly, but then now it's good.
I was like.
But then we went through thejourney and we covered it.
Yeah, check out.
So it's good to you, I was like.
But then we went through thejourney and we covered it.
Yeah, check out.
Hi to today on 23629, go outthere and have open more like.
Aside from check out how openand honest conversations the

(02:03:05):
last plug is I've been a fan ofAfrica's Talking way before.
So if and they like from beforethe value position was clear.
Fun of Africa stocking waybefore.
From before the value positionwas clear Rather than dealing
with telcos directly and howfast you need to build a
solution with them, it's fasterto build with solutions like
Africa stocking.
I never left the house to buildan SMS solution.
It was back and forth on emailfor a week and solution was done

(02:03:28):
and I remember that we wantthat for every other solution
that's built outside there.
So yeah, aside from that, goout there and try new things and
drive open and honestconversations on sexual health.

Speaker 1 (02:03:41):
Nice.
Thank you so much.
So I made it a habit toconclude the proverb African
proverb, so I have one for youand for our listeners, which
says there is no part of themeat that is not tasty.
To see it and to look away isthe important thing.

(02:04:05):
I'll repeat there is no part ofthe meat that is not tasty.
To see it and to look away isthe important thing.
I'll leave that to yourtranslation Until next time.
This is Michael Kemadi or, ifyou want, MK, representing

(02:04:25):
Impact Masters Podcasts incollaboration with Africa's
Talking Retort Podcasts comingto you live from Nairobi, Kenya,
and our guests Amukasa Iving,the CEO and founder of Sofibot.
Check out Sofibot Sofibot.

Speaker 2 (02:04:45):
It's Sofibot on all platforms.
At me, Sofibot on all platforms.
Text HI to 23629.

Speaker 1 (02:04:53):
Ah, very nice, and get sexually educated, as they
say it.
Until next time.
Thank you so much.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

Crime Junkie