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June 14, 2025 159 mins

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Dive into the remarkable journey of Dr. Mthew Egessa, whose path from computer science to blue economy innovation demonstrates the transformative power of purpose-driven technology. Growing up in Western Kenya and navigating his way through the academic world, Mathew's story isn't just about personal achievement—it's a testament to how passion and persistence can create meaningful change in unexpected places.

This conversation explores how Mathew's formative experiences shaped his approach to innovation. From his days teaching in a resource-constrained village school to his time at the prestigious University of Nairobi School of Computing, each chapter of his life contributed to a unique perspective on technology's role in society. Particularly moving is his account of bringing drama and competitive opportunities to underserved students, witnessing firsthand how access and exposure can transform self-belief.

Mathew's work at the Technical University of Mombasa, where he now serves as chairperson of the Management Science Department and leads the Blue Economy Innovation Hub (BayHub), represents a fascinating intersection of academic research and practical innovation. His creation of Vua Solutions, a fintech platform helping small-scale fishers build financial resilience against seasonal income fluctuations, showcases the profound impact simple technologies can have on vulnerable communities.

What makes this episode particularly enlightening is Mathew's nuanced understanding of sustainable development. Rather than pursuing technological innovation or profit maximization alone, his work emphasizes environmental sustainability, financial inclusion, and community empowerment. As he explains the challenges and opportunities within Kenya's blue economy—from sustainable fishing practices to coastal tourism and environmental conservation—listeners gain valuable insights into how contextually appropriate solutions can address complex societal challenges.

Whether you're interested in technology, social entrepreneurship, or sustainable development, Mathew's thoughtful approach to bridging academic knowledge with real-world impact offers inspiration and practical wisdom. Listen now to discover how innovation with purpose can create ripples of positive change across communities.

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🎤 Guest: Dr. Mathew Egessa
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathewegessa/
Twitter: https://x.com/MathewEgessa


🎤 Host: Michael Kimathi
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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, it's another beautiful day.
Welcome once again.
This is africa's talkingpodcast, in collaboration with
Impact Masters Podcasts, comingto you live and direct from

(00:29):
Pwani.
Yes, I'm your host, michaelKimathi, if you want MK.
And today we have an amazingman Not only a man, but a doctor
by professional.
And one of the amazing thingabout course, is that every time
I'm here and meet interestingpeople, interesting places,

(00:54):
africa's talking provides youSSD airtime, sms, data bundle,
voice solution, api's fordevelopers.
Africa Stalking empowersbusiness across Africa.
You can find AfricaStalkingcomto access all these products.

(01:16):
And today, once again, we'recovering Africa Movers and
Shakers in Tech and, in anamazing turn of events, we met
this gentleman sometime back in2014, back at the University of

(01:37):
Nairobi.
His story is very fascinating.
Matthew Ogesa is a lecturer ofbusiness information systems

(01:57):
with a research interest insocial innovations in the blue
economy domain.
He's a chairperson ofmanagement science department at
the Technical University ofMombasa.
He also leads the Blue Economydomain.
He's the chairperson ofManagement Science Department at
the Technical University ofMombasa.
He also leads the Blue EconomyInnovation Hub, bay Hub.
Based at the School of Business, the Bay Hub is a platform for
multidisciplinary andparticipatory action research

(02:20):
anchored on the principles ofhuman-centered design and
quadri-elixir approach toco-create solutions to real
societal challenges as a resultof learnings during community
interaction.
While at BayHub, he co-foundedVua Solutions.
Vua Solutions is a fintechstartup that seeks to strengthen
the resilience of fishingcommunities and marine

(02:42):
biodiversity in relation toclimate change as an
income-smoothing solution forsmall-scale fishers of fishing
communities and marinebiodiversity in relation to
climate change Hazard and IncomeSmoothing Solution for small
scale fishers.
Ssfs Some new terminologies.
Here I'm encountering VueSolutions partners with
off-takers who work in SSFs andfacilitate tracking of payments,
savings, stipend disbursementand loans.

(03:04):
Use a bachelor's degree incomputer science, a master's
degree in businessadministration management
information system and a doctorof philosophy degree in business
information systems.
How are you, matthew Aguesa?

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Fine, thank you, fine , thank you.
It's good to be here.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
It's good to be here.
And he's an alumni of theUniversity of Nairobi and you
know, for those who have beenfollowing me and some of the
recordings, they might think I'mbiased from my alma mater, but
by coincidence I'll say I'llstart with the guys who I know
are movers and shakers.
If you know the University ofNairobi, it's a quite diverse

(03:46):
university and you know peoplejoining the University of
Nairobi from all over the world,not only in Kenya, but from all
over the world and most ofthose people are doing some
amazing, amazing projects,including the Karen Hospital.
Right, if you know the KarenHospital, some of the best
doctors around, among as manyother fields that in future

(04:08):
we'll host.
But how are you today?

Speaker 3 (04:10):
Fine, thank you, fine , thank you.
It's good to have you.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
It's a pleasure.
So that's just a profile thatI've just read there, which I
feel like this chief has givenus like 0.0001 of who he is.
But here at Impact Masters andAfrica's Talking Podcast, you'll
have to go all the way backbecause you believe a man's
story can all be told withouthimself telling it.

(04:38):
Please, where did it all start?

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Once again, thanks for having me here.
Yeah, yeah.
I am Matthew Egesa.
Born and bred in Bungoma, whichis in a former western province
, and then did my primary there.

(05:05):
Went to another town withinBungoma.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
What was the name of the town?
Kimilili?
Yes, I remember Kimilili fromKimilili.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
Sugar, sugar.
No, no, it's Kimilili FriendsSchool.
Kamisinga, oh friends, becauseit's within Kimilili.
Ah, okay so yeah, I was born inBungoma a couple of years back.
Yes, yes, in a family of is itseven?
Eight?
Because I have three brothersand three sisters.

(05:38):
So my mom was a nurse, so Istayed in medical quarters in
Bungoma.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Okay, so they were doctors or nurse.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
My mom was a nurse.
My dad stayed in medicalquarters in Bungomo, so they
were doctors or nurse.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
My mom was a nurse.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
My dad was a physiotherapist, but in most
you'll find any man working.
Whether you are a cleaner in ahospital or you're a telephone
operator, people will be callingyou doctor, but yeah.
Even a janitor is a doctor, solong as you normally work in the

(06:07):
hospital those days.
I don't know if it's still thepractice.
So I went to Bungoma DEB whereI did my primary from class one
to six and then my mom retired,so that is when I shifted.
I went to Kimilili it's calledKimilili RC Boys.

(06:32):
I did my class seven and eight.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
How was that experience going to public
school, studying there, and nowthat you're in the education
field, comparing even now youhave children and you see them
go to cbc curriculum being ascholar and you know you also
look at the both worlds.
What is that experience for youwhen you just compare the two?

(06:58):
And you know, because for me.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'll call it a very interesting experience and I
don't know, maybe the familiesnowadays, quite a number of
people those days, or quite anumber of people who are we're
calling them movers and shakersright now a good chunk of them
went to public schools thosedays.
Yes, yes, those days.

(07:27):
And it was an interestingexperience because, ideally, I
guess it's what has shaped mostof us into who we are.
Because, at times, maybe rightnow.
It should just also shift withthe thing, because I look at the
current caliber of students.
Maybe not even primary and highschool.
I look at my students and I tryto compare how it is we were as

(07:49):
students and I see a huge gapthe level of kujituma so to
speak.
I look at our days back at theuniversity and now there seems
to be some disconnect.
Disconnect or some slightchange, but public schools those
days.
It was an interestingexperience.

(08:12):
It brought quite a huge chunkof diversity so to speak and,
yeah, it shaped.
Yeah, I had, I could say, twoexperiences In primary.
I went to two public schools,but one was in Bungoma.
It was a bigger town at thattime, but the shift between

(08:35):
Bungoma and Kimilili, as I toldyou, I was in class 7 and 8.
I now went to stay with mybrother, who was a high school
teacher.
He's older than you, right?
Yeah, way older.
I'm the last one, you know, thelast one in our, in our family.
So my mom retired when I was inclass six.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Wow, so that so you're like your brother becomes
your parent.
Your parent, yes, so our.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
at that time there was a decision either I should
go to a boarding school.
At that time there was adecision Either I should go to a
boarding school.
But my brother was like no, lethim just come to.
I think he's giftedacademically, even if so, the
school compared to whateverMungoma DB and Kimilili RC.
At that time it seemed to belike you're going, it's kind of
a downgrade.
But my brother was reallyoptimistic and he's one of the

(09:24):
people who who really shaped whoit is I am.
So I went to now the Kimili RC,both of them public schools,
but this is in a smaller townand there was a disconnect.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you move now to a schoolwhere it's now you've become
like kind of king, quote,unquote, because in in a way

(09:50):
you're at that time you're a lotgifted, so to speak.
So it's in a school where itcould be a privilege for people
to put on, maybe shoes not maybethere is some small minority
who maybe don't come to school.
Now, I had a with shoes, so tospeak.

(10:10):
I had a deskmate in high schoolwho used to make fun of me.
You know he came from a schoolwhere it was punishable to now
come to school with shoes.
Oh, okay, fine, it was a joke,that really wasn't the case.
But now he used to make a jokethat you know you came from a
school where it was nowpunishable to come with because

(10:32):
you may make others feel out ofplace, so please don't come with
shoes.
But that really wasn't the case.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
But I think those things happen in some places,
just to get people into uniformand stuff.
And it's because some of theteachers or, you know, the
school manager feels like youknow, everyone should feel equal
and you know why should youcome with the?

Speaker 3 (10:58):
shoes.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
I remember about it, even me, you know.
I moved from town to a villageand I was so surprised that
people go barefooted.
I found it really interestingfor me, so I stopped wearing
shoes to school, uh.
But also I realized there's achallenge because you know the
stones and everything else umthe thorns, so you have to deal

(11:19):
with all these things, andalsoigas was a part of that
problem.
Yeah, so you've taken me back abit.
Yeah, so you finished theprimary school.
You performed really well.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, thank God it was.
I did quite.
It was the first year.
It was the first year that wehad the five subs 500, yeah,
yeah, so we were the first lotthat we had, the five sub-teams
500, yeah, yeah, so we were thefirst lot of the team that had
500 marks.
And the other bit, as I wassaying, within the other school,
you know, you come, I wasalmost in all co-curricular

(11:55):
activities except football.
Oh, wow.
At least for that new schoolbecause we were in gymnastics,
drama music festival and at thattime you were also quite
performing well in school.
So those days you were havingbadges.
Best students in a particularsubject.

(12:15):
Best students in a particularsubject.
So, at a point you're almostwearing all the seven badges at
a particular point.
So I really also didn't used tofeel really good about that,
because at times it's.
At times I don't like thespotlight, so it's, but maybe it

(12:38):
could work in the negativesense that it could make you
almost.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Single doubts, yeah or lacks in particular subjects
work in the negative sense thatit could make you almost a
single doubts.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah, or or or or lacks in particular subjects,
but I thank god I did prettywell.
Yeah, though at that time Ireally wanted to go to stare
boys, okay, but that time I got419 marks and somehow I couldn't
make the cut because that timethe students I think either the
last one from Bungoma that timewas selected with 420.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
So you missed by one mark.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
So to speak.
That is what I yeah, pickingvery few students.
But in hindsight, looking athow everything panned out, I
think things are just meant tohappen the way they did.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
So where did you go?

Speaker 3 (13:27):
I went to French school Kamsinga.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Now you're the last guest from France.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, you talk to the Nandas and whatever.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
It's not out, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
So it was a great school.
It was within the same vicinity.
I was walking now from home tohigh school.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Oh, okay, come to think about it, so you were
Nanda's neighbor, literally.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
Not necessarily so for Nanda he came from.
He's from Webue, close to Webue, so, which is a couple of
kilometers away, but where mybrother was.
My brother was teaching at MoiGirls, kamsinga.
Yeah.
And then there is FriendsSchool Kamsinga.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
They're neighboring yeah they're neighboring.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
One is a girls school another one is a boys school,
but during holidays so evenbefore I joined, while I was in
class 7 and 8, I used to gothere watch games.
So it was so familiar to you itwas very familiar to me by the
time I was getting there.
I kind of know all the a goodchunk of the teachers and then
my brother being a teacher, theplace he was staying him was my

(14:32):
girls come singer.
There were two friends couldcome singer teachers there and
then there was a gentleman fromchesamisi, so that experience
made me almost I was reallyyoung.
But I'm staying with kind ofbachelors who are from uni at
that time, maybe three, fouryears from uni all of them.
So it maybe matured slightlyearly because they're the people

(14:56):
I was hanging out with, so itmade me but it was a great
experience.
Even before I joined I was goingto Friends school, kamsinga,
the games and whatever, and Iguess that's why I wanted maybe
to go to Saray, which wasslightly farther away, but even
with the environment around,Kamsinga really molded us.

(15:18):
It was a good chunk of even thevery close friends I have from
now are people we were with inhigh school.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Very nice close friends I have from now.
Are people we were with in highschool very nice?
Yes, this begs me to ask, likewhy does the girls they become
singer?
Girls does not perform as goodas friends I, there could be a
number of factors.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
yeah, how I look at it, at times passing in the
kenyan sense needs someparticular culture.
And then also I'll call it theentry behavior, because you know
some people normally say whydoes Alliance pass?
So much compared to anotherschool.
But if the last person who waschosen to like, maybe Staray,

(16:01):
the last one from Mungoma, wasat 420.
And then Kamsinga picked alsosome cream de la cream of
western at that time, comparingto the other people who were
picked to go to this otherschool.
So the entry behaviour isslightly fine, it's one of the
things that determines a lot.
But other than that, there isalso the culture of the space,

(16:23):
the way maybe, like at your end,you go to Uchiromo.
But other than that, there isalso the culture of the space,
the way maybe, like at your end,you go to Uchiromo.
Just by being there, you'remeeting some creme de la creme
of particular places.
And the confidence and all thatbecause passing a time it's more
of just believing in yourselfand that outlook.
So that is something that Ithink could be a contributing

(16:48):
one of the contributing factors,because with time a good chunk
passed.
Even nowadays they pass, butwithin Kamsinga there was a
culture that made you reallybelieve in yourself.
Or nothing.
There was a cliche that likejust by being here you're kind
of assured of getting a B plusor a B On the lower side.

(17:12):
So if you get anything abovethat, at least you've tried,
that is your effort, and if youget anything lower than that,
you've also really struggled toget that.
It was an informal thing, likepeople you know know in the
believing yourself.
It's kind of like a factory.
Yeah, you'll give in some rawmaterial, a product will come

(17:33):
out of it, and that productshould, because the way you've
just been conditioned yeahyou're doing exams, the cuts,
almost every other day so in ina week Monday, wednesday, friday
you're doing exams.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
It's like exercise.
Yeah, it's a mental exercise.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
And you'll know the outlook to exams won't be like.
It's making you panic.
You'll even go for examswithout reading for them and
you'll actually because like Iwas in the drama club.
Yeah.
The chair drama club and thetraining that you're doing.
You're coming from Funky and ona Sunday and Monday in the

(18:09):
morning.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
No the.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Sunday at night you're having even a paper,
Because even some day whenyou're, let's say, opening on
opening day, the night when youget back to school you're having
a paper and like the way thecuts were, I'm told, in other
schools maybe the karts, it wasjust whatever it is, you'd
learnt that term or somethinglike that.
Yeah.
But in Kamsinga you start karts.
After the first term you go forhalf-term break and when you

(18:33):
come back you start karts.
Yes, opening karts Openingkarts.
There's even some weird gamesaround those opening karts, but
after that you'll do k cuts yourentire high school life till
form four, because every otherweek you're having cuts.
But the cut at form three, it'severything from form one.
Every other time it'severything from form one.

(18:54):
So it's ideally just you'remade to, you're conditioned to
to do exams, and so it doesn'tlike surprise you or something
new so?
I think that was one thing thatand then there was some bit
about discipline that guys hadto have.
So those are the things I thinkmaybe made a difference between

(19:15):
, as you say, maybe my girlscome single could be the culture
thing and maybe the entrybehavior.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah.
So, given your first day atFrance, kamsinga, did you meet
Haimba?

Speaker 3 (19:30):
So that time, as I told you, having been from
within, I understood Kamsinga, Ithink, way better than the few
people who were getting here, soI had.
I didn't meet him because hehad left like two years.
Oh, okay, two years prior,cause I think he left in 99.

(19:52):
Okay, but I was joining in 2002.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Okay, yeah, so, so okay.

Speaker 3 (19:58):
So I didn't meet him.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
but you found his legacy.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, the legacy He'd preconditioned the system in a
way that it was just to take.
But, as you mentioned, maybecoming closer from there, I knew
even which game to play,because we used to go play
hockey when I was even still inprimary.
I'd go play hockey with guys,because quite a number of guys

(20:22):
from Kimilili are really goodwith hockey, because in the
school I was in, there is aschool called Kimi Lili Boys.
They used to play hockey on ourpitch, the primary school pitch
.
So when I get to Kamsinga in asmuch as I was really good in
drama the first year I went toplay hockey- oh nice and I even
went to go to Nationals, and bythat when first year, fomo 1s

(20:51):
are still teaming and all that Iknew defending champions even
if you fail at Zonals, you'llstill have to go to Nationals to
defend your beat.
And the previous year they hadwon Nationals.
So I knew if you're among thefirst FOMO 1s, somehow you'll
make it to the national team.
I wasn't the very best hockeyplayer.
I knew there were really goodguys in FOMO 1, but that year

(21:15):
they couldn't go to nationals.
And I knew drama.
The previous year they hadn'twon the nationals.
So if I needed a nationalticket, this was it.
Ah nice.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
And that's how we went.
In form one, we went all theway to nationals, to nationals
for hockey, but after that weused to have in-house drama.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
I was really good, so I was the best actor in drama,
and now the teacher of dramasent me to drama and you had to
be there.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
So, that's how I switched now, from two till the
very end I was in drama and didyou guys go to nationals?

Speaker 3 (21:51):
yeah, so from, yeah, so from second year till fourth
year it was also national fromfrom one to four, any national
event, may it be okay, you aresupposed to so at least.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, four four, four , four, four months.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
So it just shifted now, so at least for For more.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
So it just shifted now.
Fully to Drama and drama isinteresting Because man I loved
drama and for me it was a bitselfish.
As a man, I wanted to see niceladies and you know, the only
place you can see nice ladies Iseither music festival or drama.
And yeah, I have my tales totell we didn't go out to

(22:28):
nationals but I have my taste ifyou're in high school, please,
and the drama festivals is oneof the things you can do by all
means or music festival.
Yes, If you're athletic I wasn'tthat athletic.
As you can see, I wasn't thatathletic Go for football, hockey

(22:51):
or basketball.
Basketball is not big.
When it comes to athletics inKenya, maybe running is big,
football is big, hockey is big.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
Rugby is big, it depends.
I also know quite a number ofguys from high school who are
doing quite up to nationals upto nationals, even some now
getting a scholarship to go playbasketball in the states or
even nowadays KPA that guy isplaying for even the basketball

(23:23):
league in Kenya and even a goodchunk went now to Strathmore.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Oh nice.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
Because Strathmore was picking a good of the talent
from the high school games andthings like that.
So for, like basketball rugby,they did quite a good
scholarship for them.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Maybe I spent so much time in the village secondary
school that we associatedbasketball with.
You know cool kids, it was evengetting a jersey, nice shoes.
It was really crazy.
Even nice speech Crazy, until Ijoined another school, but that
sounds interesting.
So you're in Form 1 here.
You know everyone, you feelfamiliar.

(23:59):
You are going to nationals.
You didn't really diverge fromthe economics, like you did not
really lose focus.
And this question actually Iasked several times, because
there are so many things youhave done, matthew, which are
very interesting.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
You asked that question and then it took me
back to some FOMOAN.
I don't know whether PierreNanda gave you the same, but
it's a funny thing.
From one term, one, as I toldyou, for us we started cuts from
after first half term break.
So you go for a couple of weeks, go for half term break.

(24:38):
But when you come back.
It is exam and, like for maths,it'll be your case CPE, but but
without, without, without answerwithout ABCD.
So it's you show your workingsand whatever, and then from
there you keep other than numberlines.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
And I know actually because I also joined high
school the same same time.
Actually, interestingly, or Ifinished my KCP, Maybe I
finished my KCP in 2002.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
You joined fromAN in 2002, right?
Yes, so.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
I cleared, so maybe I joined in 2002.
Now even I'm confused, but youjoined FOMOAN two weeks later,
or even one week.
You go for midterm, so it's notlike you're studying anything
much, it's just you've joinedyou've settled in.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
It was just number lines, formats or just some
definitions and things like that.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Then you come and do an exam, that is, you have to
write your answers, contemplatewhat those answers are.
So what if you flop?
Even if you flop it's whenyou're just starting.
You've already joined theKamusinga.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
So for us, I was position one that first time
form one.
But after that, till the veryend, I was still a child Because
there wasn't much.
So it was just like for monthsyou're for sure you know you're
going to do your classes.
Eight paper that you did, yes.

(26:04):
The other beats they're justeither some definitions here,
some things there, so evenreplicating it's, it is just
that.
But now, after that it gotcrazy.
And then for me some bit ofturning point.
So I was like either fromposition 1 I went to like 7 fine
, I still kept around top 10 top20.

(26:27):
But now when I, after form one,I joined drama but drama is
quite heavy for us, becausethere is a lot of now, the
cramming, the scripts andwhatever, and then trainings,
you do till late.
So, when guys go to sleep iswhen you go train till about
either midnight or 11.
So when guys go to sleep iswhen you go train till about
either midnight or 11.
And then in the morning you'llalso over lunch hour break.

(26:48):
You do some training before too.
So mostly at times in class thefatigue or whatever you could
yourself dosing or things likethat.
And then let's say you've gonefor a funky and you come back
you need to do the paper.
So I dropped quite a bit thefast, the balancing and all, and
then over Christmas holidaysI'd lost all my books of one.

(27:12):
So while traveling, my home isin Busia, so I was born and bred
in Bungoma, went to school inFriends School, kamsinga, but my
parents, our home, is in Busia,a place called Mundika.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
So schooling only in these, these other places
because where your parents usedto work.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yes, before mom retired.
So after retiring she went backhome.
So, over holidays I could staysome bit with my brother and
then go to Busia.
So that time you have all yourfiles, your notebooks and things
like that, because you have torevise and what.
But now, on my travel to Busia,in the swap between vehicles I

(27:52):
lost the box that was holdingall my Form 1 books, so by Form
2, I had to start now afresh ina way.
So you're coming to exams.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
That must be traumatizing.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
So I had two reasons why I failed.
But now to your dad to say whyI couldn't say it was drama,
that was that made me go back.
So I was like you remember thebooks.
I lost all the books I had to.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
I had to, but deep down, you know for sure deep
down?

Speaker 3 (28:19):
for sure not like I would say.
Drama was course, but at thattime I hadn't gotten the balance
.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
But after that, at least I got the hang of it.
It was natural.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
Which part do you like acting in this drama?
For me, I think there is a profand I think also Prof Nanda
talked about him Right now he'sDr Chetambe and I think also
Prof Nanda talked about himRight now he's Dr Chetambe.
He's a really great writer andhe used to write narratives.
He's really humorous and theway he composes his pieces.
But I think he knew I had somegift in portraying two sides of

(29:03):
emotions, so he could put meaway a script that has a really
either.
It has both dimensions, a veryhappy side and a very sad side
at the same time.
So like while acting, if it'sstage, you look at people with
emotions in the crying bit, youcould see some people shed tears
on the other side and you'relike those beats were quite

(29:26):
captivating for me at leastmostly on emotion side.
If you could walk with emotionwalk around emotions with people
you know.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
I used to be a playwright story for another day
.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
So I actually I get the picture.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
So even for solo verses so Because he gave me, I
did lots of solo verses and hissolo verses had those dimensions
but we were also big onnarratives, but now I was more
of the support.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
There were guys who were just dancing.
We had really great narrators.
We were just giving them backupon the dancing beat.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
Man, that sounds like really really fun yeah yeah,
and and why you never thought tomake sense.
Uh, maybe I want to doliterature and sweet really far.
And uh, you said, okay, I likezeros and ones more.
What, what actually like whenwe're joining friends.
I do made up your mind like youknow what I'm doing this, just

(30:26):
to like the way you do our B,like something you really want
to pursue at the end, somethingyou feel like you can do it
confidently.
But deep down, you know, maybeI'll do computer science at some
point, or engineering, orelectrical engineering or
something.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
So for me, having stayed in medical quarters, and
then my mom is a nurse orwhatever.
I was geared towards doingmedicine, so I knew.
I wanted to be a medical doctorand that is what I wanted.
But in hindsight, I think I hadsome other reasons why I wanted

(31:03):
to do medicine.
So it was like, you see, mostpeople would ask I want to help
people.
You know why I wanted to domeds.
So it was like, you see, likemost people would ask I want to
help people, you know I want todo that and you have that in you
, matthew.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Still, whatever you do, you have that, and that's
what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
In the fullness of things.
I'm still doing exactlywhatever, because maybe at a
later time in the podcast I'dcome to that.
But initially I wanted to domedicine.
I joined French school and eventill the time we were to
complete, we were like I'm to domedicine, but I enjoy acting.
I enjoy acting.
I enjoy dancing, so I'm in thearts space, the creative arts

(31:39):
and whatever, but even theliterature.
As you're saying, theliterature, maths, came
naturally to me, so for me.
I didn't struggle with maths andeven I really got good great
teachers of mathematics.
There is a Mr Soita in Frenchschool.
He was really good.
He would even sleep in class.
But you now feel guilty of nowsleeping in class in a maths

(32:02):
class.
And so it came naturally to me,so I would be geared towards a
different side.
But I also did computer studiesin school, in high school, so
it was my other bit that I alsoloved doing.
So there were great teachers.
There is a Dr Batoya now.

(32:22):
He also transitioned into, didhis PhD, but he was a great
computer studies teacher so.
I wanted to do medicine, butthese other things, the art and
whatever it's what I just Iloved.
It's funny, I loved the otherside of French school more than

(32:43):
the studies came naturally, butI enjoyed being on stage.
Yeah, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
And also I've seen this even in most national
schools that you know.
Each national school is achampion in different
extracurricular activities andthis is something actually that
I've come to understand, becausefor me, actually I chose.
You know, the only thing Iwould be interested in is drama,
just drama, because it's notsomething that is involving,

(33:12):
it's not extracurricular.
And also I saw the longevity.
Even if all goes haywire,there's nothing much I can.
If I'm a runner, maybe I wouldgo and win some marathon, but
anything else looked even today.
You can't be a footballer.
You're confidently thinkingyou'll play for I don't know
what you have like 2-3 guys whohave gone to Arabian League and

(33:35):
you know there's no potential.
But one thing that I've seen inthe national schools is that
there's something extra beyondeducation, and so for even if
you're in high school, primary,it's better to be all way
rounded.
It helps a lot.
So, since you used to go tothis drama, uh, did you meet

(33:56):
these fine, fine girls?
Fine, you know fine, fine babes?
Or for you, you just went there, acted, went back to school, or
for you, you just went thereacted went back to school.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, we met, we met.
It was a great socializingevent, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Nothing more.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Nothing more.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
No letters afterwards , no girlfriends.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Definitely letters were there.
I remember some time receivinga really hot slap from Mr
Chetabu, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
I thought it's fine babe.
No, no, no.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Because, like in drama friend school, I told you
I was an official by fourth form, I was the chairman, I was also
a secretary, like that for thedrama club.
So there was a school called StBridget's Kiminini, so it was
kind of a girl's school for thedrama, for us because before we

(35:00):
started the festivals, we usedto go there stage our plays
there.
So mostly it's maybe a Sundaythat we go, but now it's not the
festivals yet.
But now you've taken boys to StBridget, of course, so after
the play and whatever.
So let guys, just because theycould sit down, socialize a bit

(35:24):
and whatever.
But on that particular day, thetime for the socializing now
for people, for me, I wasfending for my team.
I'm the chairman.
But I'm like, I see the timethey're like you have to go back
to school because we're havingan exam, oh, okay.
Yeah, we have to go back toschool because we're having an

(35:46):
exam.
Oh, okay, yeah, we have to goback the same night Because it's
not in the evening.
It used to be an afternoon show, so we did the afternoon show
and after that now you stay inthe hall.
But now I was among the lastpeople to get to the bus because
other people could getvictimized, so I was like, if

(36:07):
another person gets last, I waslike I stayed slightly behind as
a leader, as a leader to takecare.
Like the captain, everyone getson board before you become the
last, so at that time I doubt ifbecause I didn't take really
personally or whatever.
So I received a really hot slapfrom the patron, got to the bus

(36:33):
Immediately.
I felt really bad.
We were going but now to dothat day.
I remember we had a maths paperand I knew I could we could ask
we could ask it.
Yeah, went back, but Went back.
But I think he apologisedBecause after the paper we were
now to do A post-mortem of thatday.
So in the meeting that we werehaving I was like, no, it was
just.
But everything now went well.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
It's not like I could not make it in time.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
As a leader.
Because, what would the pointbe?
These are boys and you've takenthem.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
That's what actually excites them.
That was kind of the point be.
These are boys and you've takenthem to a girl's.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
That's what actually excites them.
Yes, that was kind of the pointAfter the thing give them some
bit of time, in a way.
But I would also feel the otherside, because yeah, time and
discipline.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Maybe we were frustrating him.
So yeah, you could look at bothsides and it's the heat of the
moment.
Yeah, it was the heat of themoment.
Yeah, you could look at whatside at the heat of the moment.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
but he may not even really remember this, but for me
it was an experience a nice one.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
It's because me and I enjoyed going for these things,
thank you, yeah, because we areeven at the nationals.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, but I have a.
It's like, if at all, it's aperson who was like getting way
more fly ladies or whatevermusic festival could have more
than festivals, because in dramaall of you are competing on the
same thing, but in the musicfestivals there are way low,
more many categories ofdifferent different things.
But yeah, that makes thevariety.

(37:57):
You'll have lots more schoolsparticipating in this other than
drama, because in drama itcould be.
Yeah, quite a few, especiallyat the local level.
But in moving to nationals it'snormally a whole variety of the
country.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Status girls, alliance girls I don't know,
alliance girls were good at what?

Speaker 3 (38:20):
Even plays.
At some point they participatedreally well, I think they
participated.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
I never went to Nationals but there are a couple
of schools that went there andwhen you meet at Provincial, and
stuff you could always say ah,you know, state tour guys, it
was state tour guys.
Yeah, and they had some fly flycheeks and all that.
Yeah, man, patch was alsowell-known because of the rugby
and and all that.
Yeah man, yeah, anyways, andPatch, patch was also well-known
because of the rugby and stufflike that, Also drama.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
At some point they had some plays.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
We had some ex-Patch students at the school.
I was, I was in internationalschool, though.
So it was one of those schools,and at first, actually, I was
in mixed school and then went toboys, to boys school.
That's when I realized why it'sexciting to go to these events,
because you see, in a mixedschool you are seeing these
ladies everyday.
You are all boarders, so it'snothing big deal, but when you

(39:13):
go to boys school you stay therefor one time.
You're like man, what'shappening next?
are we going to the scout inNyeri?
There needs to be some focus,so it sounds fascinating.
So for you, favorite subjectwas always math, because it came
naturally.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
Yeah, math came naturally.
Yeah, Also computer studies.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Ah because it was basically.
It makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, it was in as much as I played maybe some bits
of computer games here andthere before joining, because
when I came to Friends School tostay with my brother he had
friends who was running?
a supermarket in Kimilili in theevenings.
It was one of his friends.
He had this old desktop at thattime we were doing quite a bit

(40:02):
of gaming.
It fascinated me, and now whenI joined French school, I knew I
wanted to go.
In French school there wereparticular classes that could
have the computing option.
So I was like, even if I wouldbe taken to another one, I would
try to force myself into aclass that takes computer
studies.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Which classes are these?

Speaker 3 (40:22):
We had now XYZ at that time, so it was W and Z
that could do computer studies.
Is that for?

Speaker 2 (40:29):
top students.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Not necessarily.
It's like a way of justbalancing the mega resources in
computing.
So within those two classes youcould choose to do computers,
not others, but even the peoplechoosing.
I really can't remember the cutof sort of criteria at that
point, but at least it wasfixated to two of the classes.

(40:54):
But for me, I was lucky to havegotten to class Z, but, as I was
saying, since I knew how, thesystem works even if I wouldn't
have gone to that class, I wouldhave tried figuring out a way
of going to the computing itlooks like computer studies for

(41:14):
you was crazy man Because Nandasaid he had to cry his way out.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
Man, If I'm not doing these computer studies, Maybe
for him.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
I think for him it was a different.
Yeah, either, we had differentdrives, but I'm glad he also did
For you.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
It's just, the world is better because Nanda did it
yeah sure, yeah, so you persuadethrough.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Fourth form yeah, till fourth form.
And you also ace it again.
Yes, at least for our school,as I tell you the teacher of
computer studies, there was away you know quite a number of
people there, those days maybethe schools are round and things
like that it's like, oh youknow, these guys were getting

(42:01):
either leakage or something likethat.
Just to demystify that, as Iwas saying, if at all, you're
having creme de la creme of aparticular thing and then you've
been conditioned to like,you've revised all the papers of
computing since they startedcoming, and those are the
questions that come in, thesecuts that you're doing almost,

(42:21):
because you see, as I was saying, in Form 3, you're doing
everything from form one, but inform four, every cut and you're
not given time to breathe.
Even at midnight they couldbring the paper you'd breathe,
but it's much struggle in a way.
So it's kind of conditioned.

(42:43):
But still at that time I wantedto do medicine.
In as much as I'm doing this Iknow I'll be good in Bio chem
and what I still wanted to go tothat is, by the time you're
sitting for KCSE.
By the way, there is a friendcalled Marvin Olayo.
He's an engineer At KQ rightnow.
So you know those auto booksthat you sign After High school.

(43:04):
So I was like right now so youknow those auto books that you
sign after high school soundslike let's meet at Chiromo doing
.
Mbchb.
We still joke till now.
He's a great engineer headingsome division in.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
KQ.
You're here doctor trainingmore engineers.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
So still at that point we wanted to do by the
time you were doing KCSE yeah.
I knew we were going toUchiromu.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Wait a minute, you get your A.
Yeah, I got my A.
What changes or job happens, sothat so job happens.
And you don't have options here.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
So at this point in time, so after high school I go
back home to Busia, but I waspained.
I went to teach after highschool, but maybe before the
teaching, maybe story I got theair.
But now, in terms of reading,she told us please read, read

(44:09):
any book, just read, readEnglish.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
And all that Keep reading Read.
After reading, read more.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Pick any newspaper, it'll open your mind and all
that, yes.
So what I was doing I rememberit was literature- yeah.
You know we were doing ourexams from the hall.
You know the way we wereworking.
It was like you do a particularpaper, you can almost tell how
you're faring on, even as you'redoing.
You can almost tell you knowyou're looking at the bed very

(44:42):
city where you're doing KCSE.
It's like, yeah, I'm almost,I'm getting there or something.
And then this literature comes,the day we used to do literature
.
It was chemistry paper one,chemistry paper two and
literature in the afternoon.
So in the morning you hit yourpaper one, paper two.
The confidence levels are good.

(45:03):
We're going to ask this whenthe afternoon comes, it used to
be a really packed day for evenguys in high school.
They could know that day.
Man, I'm looking at the paperbefore I start even answering
and I'm like yeah, Becauseyou've already done paper, the
two papers for English, it'sonly remaining literature.
Once it gets, you could tellhow it is overall you're doing.

(45:26):
But this time I knew it's atthis point that I knew.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
It's not going to be that easy and you know medicine
you can miss, actually with 0.5.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
It was such things.
I was looking at this.
You know the index.
I was in like 7.
Because it's at the stage ofthe hall, so it's quite big.
The afternoon's quite big, justat the front the afternoon yeah
, the afternoon is quite hot.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Were you arranged by column or rows?

Speaker 3 (45:58):
It's columns, though it's columns.
So index one, two, three, fourlike that, Till the very back
and then like that, so you'requite.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
I can only feel for the last guy because, man,
you're all the way back.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
But at least the back .
You're not closer to the roofin a way, because at the front
you're on the stage, so it's waycloser to the roof in a way.
I was looking at the roof.
You know I'm trying to.
How is this?
That is when you remember thelecturer telling you please read

(46:34):
and read and keep reading, soyou are not an avid reader
generally generally I could, butit's not like I gave it my
really all so I got a B plus inEnglish.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
So I got a B plus in English, that messed the whole.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
So I got a B plus in English and I was like I've
gotten an A.
It was an A of 81 points.
Yeah, I knew somehow you could,but for UON at that time it was
either UON or Moi that weregiven.
But for me I knew I was just togo.
I wanted to go to UON.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
I knew I was just to go.
I wanted to go to UN.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
So I counted my losses.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Even before the jab happens, you knew.
So you see.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
I had to go rework my choices Because that time there
were revisions.
But now I had to go You'regoing to the provincial head to
do the revision for that.
So I went and now looked at myoptions.
I knew this was my other Iwanted I was good in computing
and whatever.
In as much as there were only30 people that chiroma would

(47:41):
pick at least this one, I wouldask it.
So I went and revised my yeahto computer science as the first
choice.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Yeah, so the letter came.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
the offer letter came for computer science, Because
yeah, and a funny thing my dad,my late dad, now he couldn't you
know for him.
He also, I think, either thepride of parents and whatever he
knew, his, his son, got an Aand you're saying he can't go
take medicine he was like I'mgoing to take a hunger strike or

(48:14):
I don't know.
I'm going to, I'm going to walkto work, to Nairobi, to the
Ministry of Health, and theydemand why my son hasn't gotten
to med.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
But I was trying to explain to him ah, he's good,
yeah, and being the lastborn, ofcourse it's more love.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
I just wish maybe you'd be alive to see how much
you've done man, it's adifferent, but no love lost, so
to speak.
It was quite some experience.
But in hindsight, as I wassaying partly I wanted to do med
.
A good chunk was to helpelevate pain.

(48:55):
That is quite there.
But the other bit, at that timeit was kind of a sure bet for
job Because, unlike any othercourses?
After going for internship.
The government was blessing you, so medicine and pharmacy had
some sort of direct placementthen.

(49:16):
Most of this other engineering,you had to be the best at your
bit.
There was a way to slightly.
It wasn't a sure bet, so tospeak.
But med and pharmacy so for me,in hindsight, it was this was
the reason Not really saying thehelping.

(49:36):
The helping is an actual thing.
At least there's sustainability, At least you won't struggle so
much Because I'm a guy.
even till now I may not callmyself an entrepreneur, so to
speak.
I need some sort of safety at apersonal level for you to think
about now these other things,At least the basic minimum,

(49:57):
could be there to sustain beforeyou're thinking.
And like the guys who arepurely entrepreneurial, they
risk appetite or they're notrisk averse.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
And what would you attribute this safety-ness to?
Is it like your Upbringing?
Is it you know you're the lastborn?

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Fine for me, the last born Quite.
A number of people may notAssociate me maybe with last
born, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Until now, I never knew you were last born.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
Not many people maybe normally attribute that.
So for me, my whole life, thelast born thing, at least even
in our family I normally justhear stories of, I don't know
how other last born cells were.
And I guess it's quitedifferent.
I don't know whether it's theirbringing or it's just maybe
looking back.
I don't know whether it's justa personal trait in you that

(50:52):
either playing safe, gettingjust some safe thing before.
Yeah, you could be teachingguys entrepreneurship, but I
could be a good employee, Iguess or do this and this it
doesn't come naturally, maybethe way maths came naturally to
me.
For other people either,entrepreneurship comes really
naturally to them, but for me atleast it's something I work

(51:15):
towards.
So the safety bit at least, andI guess that is how maybe I'm a
lecturer or I went intoacademia or I.
Looking back, I could attributeit.
There could be either some bitof this and then now try to help
the world in a way yeah,interesting, I was almost
telling you.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
you calculated your way in life being a
mathematician.
You read all the proportionsthe probabilities.
You found out that, ah, man, Ineed like a 7% of, assured that
I can't miss.
The rent means of transport isthere and now I can now pursue.

(51:54):
These are 3%.
Can I try entrepreneurship?
But you know, looking at whatyou are doing and we'll get
there.
It's more than that.
So you come to the school ofcomputing, one and the only, and
actually it has been the only,it was the only for some time
until you know, with the morechartered universities, private
and otherwise, and by then Ithink it was the most of, okay,

(52:21):
the only one.
Actually there was one in Moi,maybe, I'm not sure, but it was
one of the outstanding.
I would say computer science,no, it used to take only 30.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
Yeah, 30 students, that's it.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
So you get there, you meet the who is who you know,
guys, for those who don't know,if you join this right now it
might not be true, but when youused to join these high demand
courses, you think you are smartand then you meet now the smart
ones.
When you used to join thesehigh demand courses, you think
you are smart and then you meetnow the smart ones.

(52:57):
You're like, okay, what hashappened?
And then there are people whoare not so smart in high school
they get to invest, even inprimary school.
They get to the high school andit's like now they get serious.
You're like, ah, because I knowthe high school I was in's.
Like now they get serious.
Yeah, you're like, ah, becauseI know the high school I was in,
that I joined in form three.
There was this guy and I usedto hear his stories.

(53:18):
He was, I think, second last inform one until, I think term
two, mm-hmm, term three he isnumber two.
Term one, form two he is numbertwo.
Tom 1 from 2 is number one.
Shock of the day you know from,and it was like 100 students
plus and guys thought that maybethis guy is lucky.

(53:40):
Guess what, no one beats thisguy until 4-4.
He's now a pharmacist and Ithink one of these fine day I'll
get him there and he'll give usa secret.
Because for me I actually neverstruggled for any subject and he
was a guy who would find in allthe things that you think are
wrong in high school.
So you come to Chiromo, you meetguys from Sarai, the guys who

(54:02):
actually don't go to Stanford orMIT or Princeton.
They go to the University ofNairobi.
Now you can tell how smartthese guys are.
And then Chiromo had this thingwhere the lecturers were from
Yale.
Rest in peace, professor OdongoKelo, you know.
We have people like Dr Ngangafrom the University of Helsinki,

(54:24):
and the list goes on.
There is Moema from OxfordUniversity still there,
professor Moema and the listactually is quite.
The caliber is amazing.
You get there.
There are smart lecturers andthere are smart kids who have
come to be Mark Zuckerberg andBill Gates.

(54:44):
You know, when you go to thecomputer science, I think at the
back of your mind, that's whenyou realize oh man, this is what
I want to be For you.
How was it like?

Speaker 3 (54:53):
because now, of course, for you the shocker was
just before you joined theuniversity, because for me,
maybe, if we could just slightlybefore, just before the
university, I think there is aperiod that also shaped a good
chunk of of of who I am in a wayyes the choice is now.

(55:14):
I took afterwards, yeah, atfrench school kamsinga.
It was a provincial school.
Then yeah, so provincialschools, are these quarters the
way national schools would picka majority, 75 percent from its
province and then the rest ofthe country would get oh
diversity.
Yes, yeah, provincial schoolwould pick also much from the
district where it was placed andthen a few from the others.

(55:38):
Yeah, so my home county isBusia County.
Yeah.
So at that time it was a Busiadistrict.
Yeah.
We have amazing people, verybrilliant people in all forms
whether it's in academics or inco-curricular.
So it used to really pain me AtFrench school, top 10, there
are quite a number of guys fromBusia In basketball, great guys

(56:02):
from Busia Hockey, but now yougo back home like the whole
Busia district, just Frenchschool, kamsinga or even just
Kibabi.
One school in Bungoma countyhas taken more people to the
university than the wholedistrict.
So that thing, it meantsomething.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
So there were very few high schools within Busia at
that time right now is there aschool that we high schools
within Busia At that time.
Right now is there a schoolthat we can attribute to Busia.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Quite a number.
Even that time.
There was one called Butula.
It was the one that was nowperforming.
There was a guy called Maseno.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Maybe you may have known him from.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
In SEI.
He was coming from Butula.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Yeah, I know Maseno.
Maseno, I think, was in thesame class with Nanda.
Yeah, he was in the same classwith Nanda.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
So in Busia there were fewer guys in high school.
And then, as I told you, for mepassing was more of a culture
thing, but something thathappened between, I think,
either 2003 and 2005 or 2006,2007,.
Quite a number of the primaryschools used to start a high
school within it, so they donateone class to be a high school

(57:14):
school.
So the transition rate fromprimary to high school in busia
was really low.
So I went to a school, just avillage school in my village,
called budokomi.
I was a senior master in thatschool straight from high school
.
Yeah, so the school, theprincipal is the primary
principal, the deputy is aperson who had done a degree,
not teaching a degree in biology.
Most of us are just straightfrom high school.

(57:36):
But to come to kind of giveback, so at that time they had
gone up to form three, so theyhad started.
But it has grown to form threeAt that time, so straight.
I did my KCSE in November, inJanuary.
I'm a teacher but you're asenior master in that school, so
you can imagine the school.
It doesn't have resources.
You're teaching almost allsubjects, even those that I

(57:59):
dropped in Form 2.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Theory, business studies.
I dropped in Form 2.
You're also going and learningand teaching.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
You're teaching them and all that and you know you're
teaching chemistry, you're justtelling.
Just know, there is a test tube.
It's drawn like this when thisleaves, it will turn blue, black
, and so.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Just the basics.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
So you can imagine and that is where now the
education system You'reexpecting that person To also
sit the same KCSE.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
With a person, exams everything.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Yeah, from Kamsinga, and you're expecting them To
pass at the same rate.
Definitely so, doing examsevery day?
Yeah, from Kamsinga, and you'reexpecting them to pass at the
same rate.
Definitely so we are judging afish on how to climb I don't
know a tree or something likethat.
But for me there were a goodchunk of energetic young men who
gave it now their all.
We taught these students and agood chunk of them.
You know there is a person whowent now to the university,

(58:53):
straight to the university.
Those days it was B+ for job,right now C+.
You know I see people gettingthe C+ and they're like.
I know a person who in thathumble beginning so less
resources, they could stillmanage the B+ and go to uni.
So it was my most fulfillingtime.
Even till now the two years thatI spent before joining uni

(59:16):
teaching.
Because you're teaching almostevery subject At eight.
You go back to the house ridingbikes, work back home At eight.
You're just so exhausted.
You're just after dinner.

Speaker 4 (59:28):
You're like you're sitting on the Just switch off
and you're gone.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
You you're like you're sitting on the and you
just switch off and you're gone.
You're sleeping.
You didn't like feel yourself.
But I look at the people whonow came out of that time and
even now them I I was nowscripting for them drama because
the first year I couldn't dodrama.
I went to a different school,but they did you know music
festival is cheap?
yes, set piece poems.

(59:52):
But now they could go tillprovincial schools.
You could see the esteem, justthe self-esteem, because there
are now these big schools inthat they have buses and all
they realize, and then and then.
So you see, even in funkiesthere are particular schools,
who, who normally fear it's likemaybe in other schools, you're
coming from a village school andyou really don't believe in

(01:00:12):
yourself.
You know there is a Frenchschool, come single or no,
alliance or whatever.
You don't really believe inyourself.
But that year, when they beatnow these provincial schools
from Busia that have buses andwhatever, it was the first time
they hired a van to take them toa different school.
Wow, what it made them feel.
You know even the whole villageit's like guys are you know

(01:00:37):
they're moving from theirvillage to another county for
provincials.
It really gave them theirpsyche.
The second year I wrote a verseand a narrative, but now,
because I'm the one who reallyeven painted the backdrops- I I
did all that and the setting wasa school so we didn't really

(01:00:58):
need costume or whatever.
So their uniforms in drama wasalso part of the the thing.
So to make it cheap, they alsowent now to provincials and that
time the provincials were inFriends School, kamsinga, wow.
So you see it was like amotivation the way guys like
Friends School were going toAlliance for the cross, yeah,

(01:01:19):
but for this, what it just didto them moving from there to
Friends School Kamsinga, tryingto see that coming back After
that, just the psyche and thebelief in themselves way out of
this world it has really grownright now with support.
Even now the number of schoolsnow in Busia that started in
that way the transition rate nowincreased.

(01:01:42):
Yeah, I'm glad I think thefulfillment from that at some
point it now drew me towardsacademia in a way.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
So even by doing computing one way or another.
It would either come back toBecause you could see the impact
that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Yes, at least at a personal level, I felt fulfilled
.
I've never been fulfilled, likethose two years that I did at
Budokomi.
It had a huge impact, so I cameto your end chiromo be the
computer science, as you'resaying, you're meeting this
amazing amazing and very smartguys.

(01:02:24):
Yeah, class, you could.
You could tell guys, even, evenguys from the very villages and
whatever they're doing.
Amazing, the meeting, getting acomputer for the first time
there and he beats you handsdown.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Me.
I got it in second year.
My classmate can speak forthemselves.
Second year, kaka, secondsemester.
But you come to computing andthis is maybe something that
people don't really share a lot.
Even I think I forgot to askNanda.
Tell them this experience ofthe first semester.
You are taught what you knowyour entire, is it 12 years

(01:03:05):
Within a month, and thendiscreet mother is introduced to
you.
And it's tested you For you.
Who was Abung Still thereTeaching electrical engineering,
all the engineering.
They learn their discrete fromAbung.
We did our.
Africa Stocking Summit last yearat the University of Nairobi

(01:03:28):
and I checked around.
We had this conversation withsome engineering students and I
asked them who is teaching youthis script?
Abungu, prof Abungu.
Yes, and this guy teaches usingnotes.
Yes, and he tells you that thisis one discrete math book, that
is at.
Chiromo Library.

(01:03:49):
Last time I checked it's atChiromo Library.
It's one.
You just go and borrow it forone day, be kind enough to bring
back, but pay more attention topage this.
You go there, you'll find thebook, yes, but you'll not find
the page.
I don't know if that was yourexperience.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
At least they're quite a bit for me, for me
discrete, as I told you, mathswas quite, quite quite
straightforward for me, sodiscrete wasn't much of a
problem.
Calculus he was the same whotaught calculus and discrete.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Now we were taught by another guy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
This is also another fascinating guy, Fascinating
okay.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
I can't remember his name he fascinating guy.
I can't remember his name, hewas a doctor, brown looking guy
With suits and whatever.
But this guy was fascinatingman, he didn't carry a book.
You could do thedifferentiation You're like dude
, where is all this knowledgecoming from?
You know there's someone whocan learn from and you're like

(01:04:49):
man.
These are all different levelsof knowledge.
But go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
For me the discrete.
It's funny.
All of it is maths, but I thinkI'm the logical guy because for
me.
Maybe this other calculus wasn'tmuch of the logical, and it's
funny.
I normally used to wonder.
I could almost tell I would getthe A in discrete and not in

(01:05:17):
calculus.
I needed to work quite a bit onthe calculus, but the grades
were the other way around.
Whatever it is, I was like Iwanted to meet a bungu and ask
him since you're not taking theboth of them, did you switch the
two?
Or because for this great wasquite straightforward to me
compared to this.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
This is how it makes it look, but it's not the reason
.
I knew why it's not it's notstraightforward uh, I, I, I, I
did more like I went to youtubeand and checked out this mother
from MIT and Stanford videos.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
You know they put those videos.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
I'm like man.
This dude is making verycomplex things look simple.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
But they're not.
They're not simple Because thisdude will explain one theory,
because this is aboutunderstanding how computers work
and how they come up with thesethings faster.
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
And then I see you know how the MIT do the math.
And then they pull the boardlike three, four boards, one
theory and Dabunga is here withhis notes.
Nothing much.
This is what your cut will be,Because he could give you like
two questions accounting forlike 30%.
So Calculus was the one thatyou failed, you passed and the

(01:06:33):
other one you failed.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
I failed, Not failed because it was an A and a B.
So I could think not failing.
But I was just like the twogrades could be switched.
I felt this other one I workedquite hard at it to get that but
this other one, it was evenfrom the cards and whatever,
because I got I don't know a 28in discrete out of the 30 or

(01:06:58):
something.
So I was like and the exams, soyeah, but the interesting
people, the interesting people,in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in,
in, in, in, in, in, in in in ICInow it's a department.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I don't know why they suppose it's a real minor
school.
I feel like it could grow more.
Actually even they should.
But anyway, as the smart peoplelook at things, I was even to
have some podcast, maybe.
I should and try to you know,exchange knowledge and try to

(01:07:31):
expound on modernknowledge-based society, which
is actually one of the causes ofcomputing and the impact it has
on the kind of solution we wantto see, because you're living
in a digital world, sure, and Ifeel that school actually could
grow enormous, like everydepartment in every school
actually should have a computingelement in it.

(01:07:54):
And the school of computingactually should lead that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
By the way, it could be that, but I think the
strategy that your N had for meit is it was, you know, like
other universities at that timeit was the only
computing-related course.
It was the onlycomputing-related course, but

(01:08:22):
one computer science.
It's not like there is softwareengineering, I don't know.
You know, like KU or J-Quadthey could have electronics and
computer engineering.
I don't know softwareengineering.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Mixing math.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
Mixing quite a bit For your end.
At undergrad we only hadcomputer science.
That's it.
At year two you would get adiploma.
If you want to live, please, byall means yes.
So that was another good thingthat.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
I think Going deep.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
Yes, it was a thing that you see the people like
currently you find somebodystruggle and that year two,
maybe because of one reason oranother, you couldn't proceed.
You could get, you could atleast have a fallback of the
diploma or something.
But also, at year four, getyour degree.
But for me, at master's levelthey have quite a number of

(01:09:07):
programs.
They were even doing entryexams because now it had
attracted a lot more than theycould.
But now you'll find otheruniversities.
You're trying to either waterdown the computer science into
different versions and thingslike that to attract different
people.
So maybe it was a strategy foryour end or something like that,

(01:09:27):
but I hear you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
But actually I share in the sentiment because I I'm a
believer of going deeper andand you know, uh, and and
because there's so much, sure,but also I'm looking at the
modern world day education rightand and the impact of this
different education.
All I'm saying is that and Ithink we can have this
conversation with all theprofessors there- at some point

(01:09:52):
because there's more discussionthere Sure sure.
Is that computing as it is atthe University of Nairobi, it's
worth to be looked at.
Even these other universitiesactually can learn one or two
things.
Sure, not only that, but evenother departments.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Oh, within the university.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Yes, because you look at even the guys who come out
of that, even if they are fewgraduates and do like upper
class and stuff.
There's something I feel likeif other guys actually could and
the School of Computing couldoffer that as something that
they say, okay, this is what youare offering for, I don't know,

(01:10:36):
for pay or for something, butnow it could actually even
change the dynamics of how welook at things, or open an
industry, because even theprojects that actually people do
at a graduate level, master'slevel, top notch, so that's that
.
But of course, you know, withina school there are so many
handles, as I know I'm not supershort but we'll get there there

(01:11:04):
are so many handles and and ofcourse you don't just come up
with it however innovative theyare they have, yeah, they send
it the senators to sit down andsay you know, this is it, we
agree, let's go.
So you join first year, yourexperience is good and you meet
smart guys.
Do you really catch up in termsof performance and, you know,

(01:11:25):
keep track until the end, or howwas it for you?

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
At least in terms of performance.
I thank God.
I had an amazing time.
I had great friendships.
As you're saying, reallyamazing and smart people shout
out to all the guys class of2011 who?
Graduated 2011.

(01:11:49):
Great guys doing amazing stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Guys could, could do movers and shakers all over the
world even right now.
Yeah, all over the world so tospeak at least for me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
I thank God I really maybe didn't really drift quite
much.
And then, thanks to evenprojects that were there pushed
by the faculty yeah, prof, profogasha, nowadays prof, all raw,
they're quite a number.
There was no cure research lab,so quite an up beat of the

(01:12:25):
projects that were there, whowere fortunate enough to be part
of groups that at least Couldgive some side gigs.
So that one was even astructured side gig for the
project.
So there was a project by NokiaResearch.
Lab and a number of Now.
At second year we did one ofthe groups but a number of

(01:12:47):
second years, third years onthat building a particular pilot
or proof of concept.
So even from Nokia there werequite a number of projects that
now students are doing and itwas actually just payment from
it In school at that time.
It was quite something.
And also just the experience inworking in teams and building

(01:13:11):
building building solutions atthat particular time and then
quite a number went to, becauseat that time is when Facebook
was also the accounts, a goodchunk went to Stanford.
There was some bit of exchange.
At that time a number Googlewas taking some interns, at that
Google Africa.
At that time A number Googlewas taking some interns at that,
google Africa at that time.

(01:13:32):
So it was quite some goodexperience and you could see
what the value that maybe theschool was providing, or quite a
number of faculty had.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Those projects and things like that.
And I don't know, did you meet?
Now he's a.

Speaker 3 (01:13:49):
Dr Royu Royu, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
He taught you HCI.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
Mostly there was system analysis and design and
also, yeah, he was mostlyteaching.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
What was your experience?
Because I have very funnyexperiences.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
I would love to hear yours.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Royu is a monotone guy.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
He speaks in some decibels that don't increase or
reduce.
Rio is a monotone guy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
He speaks in some decibels that don't increase or
reduce.
So, man, I could not make it 10minutes into it it is it
sounded like lullaby.
It means I'm like feeling sodizzy so I had to.
How I hacked that course?
I had to go.
And I hacked that course is Ihad to go and do my own personal

(01:14:35):
reading and research and allthat.
But man, that guy could speak.
In a way I was remembering.
The reason why I remember himspecifically is because the
other day I was I don't know who.
I was talking to, oh, no, theevent we had at the Sote Hub.

(01:14:55):
Yeah, for some reason, whilepresenting, I remembered him,
and what I was trying to putacross is that, regardless of
the knowledge you get, pleasefind a way of getting more, if
really it's something for usBecause, you see, hci CDs are
very important, especially inthe modern day technology,

(01:15:17):
because if you build somethingand it's not usable, it's not
palatable, it's not somethingthat someone could really own
then, you have missed the point.
And here we have a lecturer whois super smart, but delivery.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
Man, I know you're a lecturer and you do get those
lecturers.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think for me, at a personallevel, I think this is what I
consider myself, I think I'm avery considerate person, either
quite slow to because this maynot be anger slow to, I'm quite
not be anger slow to.
I accommodate, I'm quitepatient, yeah.

(01:15:53):
And.
I think either the teaching,teaching experience at Budokomi
gave a bit of that to me, yeah,even when we were disagreeing
with people, I could be quiteeither accommodative or patient
to try hear you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
whatever Reasoning, yeah, and then I yeah reasoning
yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:07):
And then I guess I don't know if there was any
connection then.
But much later, whatever he didin his PhD and whatever it is I
did, there are particulartheories that now he even during
my PhD I went to him, he gaveme, he was kind enough to give
me his PhD.
We were working on the sametheory man.

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
I need to meet him once more and tell him it was
good.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
but I would wish it would be maybe this way or that
way.

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
I feel you so.
For you you didn't feel like itwas maybe, maybe my personality,
maybe, maybe I'm the one whoprocessed how he presented this
in a monotone maybe, andactually it's good because you,
maybe I'm the one who processedhow he presented this in a
monotone.
Maybe, actually it's good,because nowadays I'm going back
there to visit and alsointroduce some of the community

(01:17:01):
aspect as well as talk about theknowledge and stuff with the
student.
If I bump to him or any otherperson because I and it's the
way life is you'll meet peoplewho you find them certain way.
By that time you might not beable to tell them or give them
feedback.

Speaker 3 (01:17:23):
Feedback is good, it's good maybe there could be
another MK there at the moment.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Yeah, but I didn't do that bad but.

Speaker 3 (01:17:36):
I could do more.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
I see.
So yeah, I mean there are acouple of lecturers.
How did you find Okelo by theprofessor the late?

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
That was interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
Yeah, assembly language.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
Prof.
Was you know those people whoare?
You see you're calling smartpeople and he had for me either.
He was also very soft-spoken,but the delivery there are lots
of technical stuff that he'sdelivering.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
That needs more investigation and internalizing.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
A lot of thought processes.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
For him.
He really used books and slides.
Slides.
He could send them find time toread them.
But when he comes there hebreaks down assembly language
like it's a one, two, three,four kind of stuff.
Yeah, man, uon big up, sei man,it's a one, two, three, four
kind of stuff.
Yeah, I mean the UON big up SEIman.
It's crazy, it's really good.
Um, so what are someinteresting aspects towards your

(01:18:42):
the end of the, or even whatdid you build a second year for
second year project?

Speaker 3 (01:18:47):
so for second year, funny enough, we it was a collab
.
You know that time time it wasmeant to be a solo project, but
at that time we did two peopleone project.
So there is Eric Ngei.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Hello Ngei.

Speaker 3 (01:19:06):
He was my roommate in first year and then in second
year.
There there was a project wewere calling it.
Was it ivr?
Yes, it was an ivr.
So that time the technologywasn't really much there like it
is right now.
So, like the, the, the voiceabout the virtual reality, or
voice no, no it was a voiceyou're recording, like the press

(01:19:28):
one, two, so it's interactivevoice response, whatever you'll
call safari com, and press onefor this and then two for that.
At that time it wasn't becausethat was 2009, it wasn't that
much there.
So we build a solution for adoctor and it had now the IVR

(01:19:49):
component so the patients could,so I was working on the IVR
component so the patients could.
So I was working on the IVR sideand then he worked on the
doctor's system because, it had.
Dr Oro was a supervisor, a profnow.
So, there were those twocomponents and, by the way, that
time it was the most innovative.
At that time they used to callit Science Fest, or something we

(01:20:14):
used to have a Newcomps couldorganize all the projects, the
last year, the last year, thelast year, and then you
demonstrate, and then there usedto be a dinner after that.
So at second year we wereinvited.
We were invited to the fourthyear's dinner.
At that time it was Intercon, Ithink.
Yeah, songei, big Up.
So that was what it is we didat second year.

(01:20:34):
At fourth year Dr Nganga was mysupervisor I did an application
for fish farmers.
So I think this fishing thing,looking back, things started
Because, coming from Busia- fishis a staple food, and that time
they used to call it economicstimulus program.

(01:20:56):
So the government had pumpedquite a bit of money to fish
farmers within Busia.
So I was working with thefisheries officer in Busia.
So at that time I think verytechnology moves, that time
mobile, you had to code a mobi,dot mobi, and then there was a,
the actual web, and then nowGoogle Maps.

(01:21:18):
At that time, so it was alsoyou could either some
recommender algorithm for getsmaps where, if at all, you are
trader and and and and and afish farmer when the thing.
so that is what the applicationfor I did in Fothia.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
Interesting man.
Like you did some amazing, youknow, when you talked about IVR.
Now Africa's Talking Voice cameinto mind, man, Because you see
now much come to think about it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:52):
Yeah, now their technologies are actually doing
that, but at that time, becauseit was on linux, yeah, we built
quite a number of either someopen source stuff, that we're
trying to reconfigure to andthen record it.
So at that time, yeah, at thattime, record record, get some
people to do the voice recordsand then now, if at all they
press a particular beat, it goesto another end.

(01:22:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
Man, and did it cross your mind that you can pursue
these projects later on andbuild something of value out of
them?

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
It may or may not have the bit that I told you.
For me, maybe, entrepreneurshipdoesn't come as a first, it's
not.
Another person could look at itin many other different ways
and really push and persuade him.
Maybe that fee, because wecalled it to ganesha.
It was like at that time maybebefore this, the e-commerce and

(01:22:57):
linking either farmers andtraders or things like that.
Yeah, because that time it wasquite a bit.
Had we pursued it maybe as a asa startup then and had that uh,
push to to take it less, as Ithink you would have done.
So it may have occurred, butmaybe I didn't have it in me to
or either the ecosystem orpushing it in that, along that

(01:23:22):
direction, then yeah, and inboth your projects you passed
really well.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
You got the maximum you could because they account
for like four units because onewas like I don't even, it was
quite a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
The second year, one was two, this other one was
about either six or somethinglike that no I think, yeah, at
that time.
The curriculum, I guess it wasabout either six or so I think
so okay.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
Now I don't think they do, for they used to when
by the time I was doing that, itwas 4-4.

Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
For us second year it was like 2.
This other one was a lot more.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):
I'm a more practical guy.

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):
But a funny thing is I don't know whether for you
also the experience duringpresentation at the final.
The things just during thepresentation there is a
particular beat the, the, the,the beat that just you.
You've stayed overnight doing aparticular thing and you break
yeah, you just break the code ina way and that's where, yeah,

(01:24:20):
it was working.
Even even I.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
I demonstrated yesterday supervisor yeah and
then the supervisor doesn't wantto be on your side to look like
you know what.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
I don't know if you had any of such experience.

Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
I did, I did, but I found out.
You know, for me, packagingthings is not the biggest
challenge in my life.
Like you, could give meanything and I could package it
to be palatable, because I alsorealize people don't care about
the tech so much they peopledon't care about the tech.
So much the practicality of itthe care of the solution or the

(01:24:56):
impact.
So if you really package thatreally well and even if you
demonstrate the practicality ofit up to 70%, it's still good.

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
How I wish that message should go to very many
engineers.
I don't know if they get itbecause quite a number of the
engineers are fascinated withthe tech and maybe that's where
they're, either computer scienceor whatever it's like.
Oh man, I stayed hours of codeand all that.
You see, this is what.
But at least on the ground forthe layman, or whoever it's what

(01:25:26):
that enabled him to do yeah.
The features that they'll beinterested in may not be the one
that you spent months and yearsto.

Speaker 2 (01:25:36):
So that is a message you should take to more and more
, and this reminds me there'sanother course, I think it's
called.
Oop.
I remember taught by Pauline.
I think Pauline was yourclassmate or something she was
about either two or three yearsahead.
Yeah, she taught us some OOPand there's this project she

(01:25:58):
said we make, and then I used todo a lot of things outside
school and, because you know, Ididn't stay at the school, so I
went and got an open sourceproject.

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):
It was a chat Then chat was not big deal Even
message.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
Facebook message was broken, which was the initial
chat.
Whatsapp was not really upthere and, given it's an open
source, you have the open sourcecode.
So I tweaked it Because, at theend of the day, we needed a
project to present.
And when I presented it it wastoo good to be true to her, she
was like where did you get thisone?

Speaker 4 (01:26:34):
I said it's open source, not like I built it from
scratch because buildingmessage like you know, it's chat
message.

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
It's quite complex for three months or four months.
One person and I think shewasn't satisfied with that for
some reason, but ideally for me,me I was like, wow, maybe I'm
ahead of my time.
And then eventually actuallyopen source became big to an
extent that open data said everygovernment should adopt to open

(01:27:05):
source and open data.
Right, I know, of course, opendata is all the same as open
source, but of course, gettingsomething that actually works
and adopting it to serve thepurpose is something that people
know a lot and they want toreinvent the wheel every time
and I can assure you all thetech that you see, everything

(01:27:26):
that you see, including mobilephones.
They don't start with thosespecific guys.

Speaker 3 (01:27:31):
It's eventual growth and additions.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
I thought I should say that.
It's very, very important.
Sure, so you, you hiss it again, you get your your.
Yeah, oui, Get your second upor you get your first class.

Speaker 3 (01:27:50):
I got the second up.
Ah, that's amazing man Gettingsecond up.
Or get your first class.
It was a second up.

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
Yeah, that's amazing man getting second up at school
of community.
You can count the guys who getit.
There's something actually.
I wanted to talk about the seiguys.
So this time I was crossing uhtanzanian border for the first
time at holo holo.
I think it was tanga and Ithink I wasn't vaccinated for
the yellow is it called yellowfever, the yellow card that

(01:28:14):
you're given for 10 years and Ihad someone also, but they were
not qualified to be vaccinated.
And this guy who I go to, hesays you look young, where are
you from?
He tried to know me.
I'm just graduated from theuniversity of Nairobi doing
computer science.

(01:28:35):
Oh, you did computer sciencewhen?
Chiromo, yeah, chiromo, chiromo.
You know Dr Moturi?
Oh, no, no, christopher Moturi,yeah.
He's still there, yeah.
Ah man, we became very goodfriends.
Like man, I was from there, Iworked for the immigration and

(01:28:55):
whatever, and I'm posted herebecause of biometrics and all
that kind of stuff.
And it shows me.
And then there's this other guythat actually Christophe Moturi
introduced me to from Microsoft, so he was, I think, a
Kenyan-Indian, Kenyan of Indiandescent.
And he schooled at School ofComputing some time back and he

(01:29:17):
went to live in San Francisco orsomeplace.
I think Seattle or something sohe used to be a partner, a
Microsoft partner or something,so he used to work with
Microsoft and the guys who, whenyou know Windows OS is broken,
you see those patches.
You have to download this muchand then once you install.
It works.
So they do.

(01:29:37):
And funny thing, I rememberabout this guy that I wish I
meet him again and do a podcast.
Then I so he had written codes,so there's a way his body had
conformed to that so he didn'thave some hair, some part of his
hair, and then here he hadcarved.

(01:29:59):
But he was a really goodengineer, just to say the least.
And when I check out now thatat least I interact with so many
people, school of Computing hasreally represented very many
talented guys across the world.

(01:30:20):
And this brings me to after.
You are a computer science.
You decided to go and domasters or Masters came slightly
later.

Speaker 3 (01:30:32):
By the way, I wanted to do masters.
As I told you, since I was in,I wanted to go the academia
route.
We could get into the graduatetrainee program.
Yes, by that time I didn't geta first class.
It would either be because atthat time I think it's a
conversation I had also withChristopher Mturi, who was the

(01:30:57):
deputy director then yeah, butthat year the school didn't
offer a graduate assistant roleour year.
Yeah, because the following yearI think Nanda and those other
gentlemen wait, what's his name?
The two joined as graduateassistants because it was like
you join and then you could beseen in a chukka tour before

(01:31:18):
Selena there was one.
Selena was from a different toa university.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
But those not good.

Speaker 3 (01:31:24):
Not good a legal good .
I.

Speaker 2 (01:31:28):
Oh good, europe, yes, yes so he came, went for.

Speaker 3 (01:31:32):
So it was.
That was the path I would wantto take, but you see it was
either a first class or the, the, the uni offering that, but at
that year they hadn't offeredthat, so at that time I did a
gig on web applications in sync,in sync, media I in sync uh in
sync, media in sync solutionssolutions limited and then,

(01:31:56):
while at that we're building thein sync was building the
website for the judiciary.
I see how now you're the pathturned into judiciary now.
But you see, I was at in syncdoing web applications for them
and then, through ProfessorWaemwa, they wanted sort of

(01:32:19):
attachees or interns at thejudiciary.
So that is how there was HelenNyamwiru and there was some
Omolo who the three of us wentto the judiciary.
So there was an email, so youwere in the class of Omolo.

Speaker 2 (01:32:32):
I was in the class of Ny went to the judiciary so
there was an email.
So you're in the class of Omolo.

Speaker 3 (01:32:33):
I was in the class with Nyamu, omolo was with Nanda
, so Omolo was a class behind,and then I was with Helen.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
The reason why I asked you what you got at Yonini
is because I know Omolo gotfirst class Okay and he's with
the judiciary.
Also, eric Ngei got ngay gotgay got a fast first class right
yes uh, but him.

Speaker 3 (01:32:53):
I think he went either to ernest amaki, honest.
Yeah, yeah, it's an astonianeither he was at pwc or honest
before moving to this other yeah, kcb.

Speaker 2 (01:33:05):
Right now he's in kcb should be the last hx.
Yeah, yeah and and and to someextent I feel like government
gets all the best minds, butwhen it comes to seeing that
Because you see like at thepoint you know government or
even fine government oruniversities, there is a
particular structure and thethings are done.

Speaker 3 (01:33:26):
And changing that is where the that's why it's
normally quite rough, or you'llfigure a way of navigating that
space Because why I say maybequite a number of adults looking
back they connect At NSYNC.
We were doing just thejudiciary some bit of it.

(01:33:46):
But now there is this professor.
He's called Professor JoelNgugi.
He's now a high court, not ahigh court, he's a court of
appeal judge.
There is a new dispensation inthe judiciary.
Dr william is now the chiefjustice and then this professor
applies.

(01:34:06):
He was a professor inuniversity, I think, of
washington.
He moves supplies to be a judgein kenya.
So that is a story you knowlater yeah so he comes.
He's in machacos.
He wonders what is happeningwith the judiciary, the culture
and everything.
So he sends an email toprofessor from among the school.

(01:34:27):
You could give us a bunch ofguys who could help us yeah,
yeah, that is how yeah, that ishow dr.
Dr Nganga, who is in our class,shares the info, and I think so
.
I reply to the email and thenYM also forwards the same.
And then the professor asked meare you available to come to

(01:34:51):
Machakos on so-and-so?
You can just come and seeexactly.
Yeah.
So that's how I go to Machakos.
These other ones went to thejudiciary in.
Nairobi yeah.
So I sit down with him, and thatis another changing moment, the
talk with this guy fromWashington, this guy His

(01:35:12):
thinking is quite different,right?
Not only just thinking they'regood people who mean well for
this country.
I'm thinking there are goodpeople who mean well for this
country and, despite the way thestructures are or whatever, we
could really blame thegovernment or whatever.
But there are really goodpeople who mean well in
government and would want tomake the best out of it.

(01:35:33):
They're among the people or ateam that I.
This is my view of things.
I could be wrong but, it's ateam that Dr William Mutunga
used to transform the judiciaryBecause there were think tanks
coming up with, there was astrategic, so they used to call
it a judiciary transformationframework.

(01:35:54):
They built a framework to helpthe judiciary.
At that time, judiciary almosthad I don't know only a few ICT
officers in the whole countryand for him the way it was
working.
Why not just have a simpledatabase that could help
digitize these processes andwhatever?
So there were things about, Idon't know, lost files.

(01:36:15):
The processes within the spacewere not remuneration for them,
so there was lots of corruptionand things like that at that
point in time.
So it was like I'm here inMachakos.
This is how the judiciary works.
You can imagine a person comingfrom Ikuda.
I think he mentioned that name.
There's a place, one farthestcorner of, I think, kitwi County

(01:36:36):
.
They have to come to Machako'sjust to ask where is my file, at
what point, what is the status?
But there is only maybe onethat comes all the way to
Machako.
So if the status of the caseit's just to look at the file,
but now you come, the people atthe registry tracing just that

(01:36:59):
file or whatever.
So, just the inefficiencies ofthat, but they did lots of stuff
in even just transforming theremuneration of staff as the
judiciary and even the howshould I put it?
The mindset, because initiallyit was like judges were being

(01:37:19):
feared.
It's like on a, you're in ahallway, a judge is appearing
from the other side, peoplevanish.
Maybe there are people alongthe corridors, yeah, but you
could just find people vanishingalong.
So there were more.
So they had that culture of onlyjudges were going for these
workshops and things like thatbut, during that judiciary
transformation, it was everybody, from the security guards, the

(01:37:43):
cleaners, plus the judges youenter mingle.
So for me, the humanness oflooking at just people you're
working with, irrespective oftheir stature, so the judges or
the lower cadre, just treatingthem well and treating them as
human.
So that is another thing thatshaped quite a bit and the work

(01:38:04):
ethic that the guy had and he'sa really brilliant mind.
So within the you look at thejudgments that he's written
within the, so he's moved.
He was heading that judiciarytransformation unit within the
judiciary.
I'm glad he's now a court ofappeal judge.
I'm hoping in my lifetime atsome point he becomes the chief

(01:38:26):
justice of the judiciary ofKenya.
Who's?

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
professor.

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):
Joel Ngugi.

Speaker 2 (01:38:31):
I think I've heard his name a couple of times In
the corridors of justice.
That's how they speak In thecorridors of justice's how they
speak.

Speaker 3 (01:38:40):
The corridors of justice yeah, let me not be
slightly controversial, becausebecause he was, but this is,
this is.
This is a personal, my personalexperience, my personal
experience with him because hewas among the least, because at
some point some people hadqualified to be court of appeal
judges, but for a long time theyweren't taken to.

(01:39:01):
I think when this regime came,they're the ones who streamlined
the whole process.
The former president had notassented to it.
It brought a push and show ofall.
They didn't appoint a number ofpeople to be court of appeal
judges, but I'm glad they noware.
But, I'm sure they're doingamazing things for this country

(01:39:24):
Very nice.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
Yes, and you served there for over three years.

Speaker 3 (01:39:28):
Yes, because I joined at around 2015.
2012.
And then in 2015,.
That is now how I got back tothe judiciary, to SCI.
Yeah, Because, yeah, at thatpoint I'd done.

Speaker 4 (01:39:47):
I started doing my master's while at the judiciary,
yeah, while at the judiciary,yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:39:52):
And I don't know whether let me call it politics,
some bit of politics within,because at that time there was
quite some.
The chief justice, it was allover the news and there was a
fight between the chief justice,and so there was quite a bit of
and who were found were eitherwe'll call it collateral damage,

(01:40:15):
stray bullets.
Friendly fire it collateraldamage, stray bullets.
Friendly fire or collateral?
Damage the guys who are closingall the loopholes it was a
really great moment for me, likemaybe looking at the way
startups work or whatever whenyou're getting founders.

(01:40:36):
In my view, even if you'regetting maybe an engineer or
something, it would be good toget somebody who's quite
immersed himself within thespace that domain space yeah and
for me, that is what judiciarywas.
New to me at that time.
But I learned quite a lot and Icould get pain points, pain
points for, for, for, and evenwhen I joined C4D much later,

(01:41:01):
there was a time during eitherthe second innovation week or
something like that, I nowmanaged to get into some justice
fellowship and it was from theideas and the learnings and the
pain points within judiciary.

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):
So where is this fellowship course from?

Speaker 3 (01:41:23):
It's called Hill Innovating Justice, so they
normally run yearly summit orevent.
Yeah, they have a summit, sothey run a cohort of
entrepreneurs within the justice, innovating within the justice
space so at some point there wassome bit of entrepreneurship
and they were calling it familyjustice or something yeah yeah,

(01:41:46):
so that is how much later,looking back, you're like, had I
not been in this space Iwouldn't have known.
Oh, this problem intricacies ofjustice within the justice
space.

Speaker 2 (01:42:00):
This problem intricacies of justice within
the justice space yeah, but uh,not quite a bit, and it was an
interesting time.
So you came back to c4d lab,computing for development lab.
You will find me there as uhand you come as lead.
Actually, when you were comingin, I was just actually leaving.

Speaker 3 (01:42:17):
So you see the, the stories, the, the, the.
The time I looked at the storywith Nanda and whatever I was
like, so I was coming to replaceNanda At that point.
Nanda is jacking and theyneeded somebody to either.
Either there was a project thatProfuema had, but it was trying

(01:42:39):
to fix this number of things,and that is how I also I'll find
.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):
Nanda to tell the other story, because in that
podcast he was a bit diplomaticand even me.
Actually I was on my way out.
Uh, maybe so many people didn'tknow I was serving there as a
volunteer.
I did a lot of things actually,uh, as you had, you know,

(01:43:04):
sharing with nanda.
Um, yeah, and that's the daythat's actually the year we were
we did our first, firstinnovation because that that
that is now how it is.

Speaker 3 (01:43:15):
We met and you really did an amazing job.
By the way, come to think aboutit and cause the back story a
bit of the back story.
I got it from the podcast, butthe meetings- the meetings and
you're our secretary doing.
I go through my emails and Istill take the we're part of the

(01:43:38):
team together.

Speaker 2 (01:43:40):
I mean, my email was shut off because I left, but of
course there are some of theemails that are my personal
email.

Speaker 3 (01:43:47):
For me, most of it were the personal emails.

Speaker 2 (01:43:51):
Yeah, and it was crazy, man, like if that was the
energy until today and everyonecould enjoy the results of what
we did.
But I'm happy that InnovationWeek has become a thing in all
the counties, so you see, for meyou know the way you could.

Speaker 3 (01:44:08):
Not many people may give you the accolades, not many
people, but you go home,sleeping, sleeping, nice.
You're getting fulfilledbecause there is something.
It may not be attributed to you, no one may not really care,
but for us who are down thatroute together, talking about

(01:44:30):
bringing Soul Singer, I rememberthat time bringing it was Paul,
I don't know if it was PaulHarris so quite a number of guys
and the amazing work that he'sdoing, because it's an almost
how should I put it?
maybe the term has just skippedmy mind but I'll get back to it

(01:44:56):
but looking at what, it remindsme of the judiciary.
So developing at that time, thestructures are not there, very
few people.
I'll get back to it.
But looking at what, oh, itreminds me of the judiciary so
developing at that time.
The structures are not there,very few people, because even
graduates with computer-relatedbits within the judiciary now
were quite few at that time.
I'm glad right now thattransformation document.
They employed a huge chunk.
They now focused on evenapplication developers.

(01:45:18):
So the need and you now seethere is electronic filing and
whatever right now and peopleare using it.

Speaker 2 (01:45:25):
Now the e-cities yes you like, lit some fire that now
at least you contributed in thewhole, and you know what
actually that tells me when Ithink about all this, because
everyone I talk to there'salways this analogy that things

(01:45:48):
can be done, things actuallycould get done and things
actually could be fixed.
I don't know, it's just like bydesign, but sometimes you can't
do too much up to a certainlevel.
You're like, you know you arelimited at this point.
I don't know it's just like bydesign, but sometimes you can't
do too much Up to a certainlevel.
You know you are limited atthis point.
And even using C4D scenario,when I look at it it's like the

(01:46:13):
most successful startups that wehave hosted was just that year
I was there, or two years.
I was there One year and sixseven months.
And even today they are part ofthe ecosystem.
We have talked to some of themand you can go and watch how
they shared and what they'redoing and how many people they
have been able to employ,because for me, I feel Africa as

(01:46:34):
a whole we're not Kenya we needmore entrepreneurs or we need
more businesses that actuallyare growing, thriving,
profitable, scaling, and that'swhy I was ready to go and help
figure out how do we do that.
And sometimes it's really hardbecause even and big up, by the

(01:46:54):
way to people like Dr Omwansa,professor Wayema brilliant mind,
no doubt, and even articulatingissues, getting things moving,
and these guys actually were abit upfront with what is
happening and they knew how tonavigate the structures.
But even for them, given wherethey are in life and all that, I

(01:47:18):
can understand why they cannotgo up to a certain level.
And you see, when you are, youare really self-driven and
focused, you really want thingsdone, things done, and you are
ready to go all the way right.
And I wish still.
I feel like there is a lot thatneeds to be done, no doubt, and
even you know, generation aftergeneration, we need to do more.

(01:47:42):
And the reason is very simplethe world is changing and the
way things are happening.
We're always 10 to 15 yearsbehind technology-wise,
regardless of what we thinkKenya is.
Imagine now other countrieslike Malawi, benin, togo, swazil
, switzerland, which is now aswatini you're like man.

(01:48:05):
If we feel that and we're hereand everyone is looking at kenya
like what?
Kenya is weird, then there'smore that needs to be done and
and, and maybe some of theseguys will need whatever you said
lighting that spark.
So I leave you there at C4D, ofcourse, and you are leading

(01:48:26):
events, you know, and how wasthat experience for you?

Speaker 3 (01:48:30):
or also, you were doing the masters, so it was
easier for you, because for me Ihad already, by the time I was
joining, I had already completedmy masters so by the time I was
joining, I'd already completedmy master's.
So by the time I was joining Iwas already done with my
master's.
But the way the uni structureis, you see, now I was employed
to be a programmer, senior ICTsenior programmer.

Speaker 2 (01:48:51):
within the Change, the look and feel.

Speaker 3 (01:48:54):
Within ICT.
So I was like on this otherside on quote unquote secondment
to C4D so.
I'm reporting to the school,because it was the school that
was doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:49:05):
School of Physical Science.

Speaker 3 (01:49:06):
No, the School of Computing.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
School of Computing.

Speaker 3 (01:49:09):
So Professor Odongo was the one who was signing, so
I'm employed the same way, likemaybe Nanda.
Nanda is a graduate assistant,but working this other side of
C4D, because C4D was anchoredwithin the school, so I was also
a senior programmer but, nowworking on this other side.
But now, as I told you, for meit was partly learning a lot,

(01:49:34):
but I wanted to get intoacademia, so it was maybe some
slightly easier route too.
yeah, but now within theacademic institutions you may
find there could be somedisconnect between academic
staff and an academic staff.
So you may find you're hereworking with other you're a
senior programmer, but there isthere is a maybe a graduate

(01:49:58):
assistant or tutorial fellow.
Either way your perks could bedifferent, you could be doing
way above whatever is on that.
But whatever it is you'regetting, isn't that?
It's not convincing.
So I was like at that time iswhen there was a Garissa
University attack.

(01:50:21):
So I was like I would apply toany university in Kenya except
just Garissa.
At that time I wanted totransition into, but at that
time I started now my PhD.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
Okay, yes, still at the university or somewhere else
.

Speaker 3 (01:50:35):
So at that time my thought process was the PhD was
quite an expensive venture in myview.
At that time you have to do itby research.
So I was like if at all I getfunding to do that, I'll do it
there.
Because it would be more than amil.
Oh, PhD costs that much.

(01:50:55):
It would be at SEI.

Speaker 2 (01:50:58):
So if at all somebody would pay that well, and good,
and I know guys spent 10 yearsdoing that PhD.

Speaker 3 (01:51:03):
Well and good.
But if not, since it's still byresearch, I could still do it.

Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
So when you do it by research means that the research
funds they owe.

Speaker 3 (01:51:14):
Not necessarily because by research for
coursework it's like you'll goto class and then maybe for some
semesters or something likethat, and then you come do the
actual research.
But by research alone youactually don't go to class.
So you'll be either defendingthe proposal you're reading,
you're working with yoursupervisors on a particular

(01:51:34):
topic.
So you see by that, whetheryou're doing it this or that
side, it'll still be the sameresearch so to speak, in a
different place maybe it'll beslightly less.
In another place it'll be more.
So that was my only bit.
So I enrolled in Jaramogi, butthey're really having great

(01:51:55):
faculty.
There is Professor Rodrigues.

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
Is there one who went to start computing there?
I guess?

Speaker 3 (01:52:02):
Yeah, so he went the other side.
That's the one guy.

Speaker 2 (01:52:05):
I didn't find there.
Actually, when I was joining, Isaw his office.
For me actually.
I visited the school and thenjoined.
So I saw Professor Rodrigues Ithink he was in sabbatical, he
was next to Christopher Moturi'soffice.

Speaker 3 (01:52:20):
Yes, At least you remember those offices.
It's interesting, so for me itwould be.
I'm actually working there but,for me because I was the one
coughing out my tuition.
I wouldn't cough the one minute.
But in a different place Icould do it.

(01:52:41):
So because I needed I knew Ineeded the PhD, I did it, got a
place with great faculty and I'mgrateful to God.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
How long did it take you to do the PhD?

Speaker 3 (01:52:54):
I registered in 2015.
Because now for this it'll be.
I registered in 2015,.
I graduated 2020.
Yeah.
But now it wasn't because I nowcame this other side.
There was some bit of gap, soit was like, if at all it was
full-time, I would have takenabout three years.

Speaker 2 (01:53:10):
Less time, yeah, less time, but but I know guys
actually take a long time.
It could depend.
There are some commitments hereor there.

Speaker 3 (01:53:17):
So there are lots commitments here or there, so
there are lots of dynamics bythere within the academy, and
then you are grown up, you havea family.
Yeah, so there are at somepoint like 2015.
After that it was like yeah,it's supposed, I'm planning for
a wedding the following year.

Speaker 2 (01:53:32):
So there are particular.
Almost the same time youplanned for a wedding, almost
the same time you planned foryes, yes, yes, I remember, I
remember it was, but C4D wasalso.

Speaker 3 (01:53:40):
I really learnt a lot and what an a hub or an
incubation hub could do within alearning institution.
So for me it was a, a greatmodel and that is the drive, or
the visioning that I came with.
This other side, yeah, becauseat least either for you, ananda,
you're big on the community andyou could, it comes easy for

(01:54:03):
you and you could patch up theseother things.
There are those.
There are definitely problemswithin the academic structure,
so to speak, navigating it andall, and it's the same
challenges.
Maybe I'm facing this otherside, but at least as long as
there is progress, for me thatis, even if it's just time

(01:54:25):
navigate.

Speaker 2 (01:54:26):
No, I mean one thing I learned from the university,
and I think I shared even whenwe had this chat with Nanda, is
that any project can be done atthe university.
It's just that there are those,I think, more gatekeepers or
guys who are a bit experiencedwith the structure and you'll
never see them a lot.
They know when they should showup and when they show up, the

(01:54:49):
show stops.

Speaker 3 (01:54:51):
And the only way we were able to navigate most of
these things is throughProfessor Oema and for Dr Mwansa
.

Speaker 2 (01:55:01):
Also used Professor Oema acumen in relation with
Professor.

Speaker 3 (01:55:05):
Mwansa.

Speaker 2 (01:55:07):
That's the only way we were able to navigate.
Come up with a strategy, invitethe DGs, get things moving.
Innovation Week and one thingI'm thankful about is when I
hear 47 counties of this countryare exploring that model and
when even Dr Mwansa, throughKenya, do the Innovation Week.

Speaker 3 (01:55:29):
I see guys all over Africa coming for that and I
feel okay, oh it's not lost,because for me and how I
normally look at it, in as muchas maybe the structures here
could not maybe work or not workper se, but either they are
taking they are slower than youwould want, or the impact may

(01:55:51):
not be as great, or it may notbe taking the approach that you
would wish.
I'm grateful he is now at ahigher pedestal, so to speak,
and they're now doing quite alot in just sparking that, and
he's the great guy in eitherconvening and navigating the

(01:56:12):
spaces because he could begifted in that and for me, the
period that he's served as theceo kenya, there's quite,
there's quite a lot of activityand progress and building that
ecosystem in a way.
So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm morehopeful I'm more hopeful in, in
the, in the ecosystem and yeahyeah, I think it's better days

(01:56:36):
to come for sure, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:56:39):
So you serve there at C4D Lab, but of course as the
lead programmer for theuniversity for a couple of years
and apply for your PhD.
But on the side, I think thereare like three startups that you
add and I don't know what theydo but you can tell us.
There's Muetu Solutions, whichhas been running since 2008, and

(01:57:01):
then there is formalia limited,which is started running 2016.
Well at the university what islike consulting for?

Speaker 3 (01:57:10):
software.
So for the mw2, mw2, mw2technologies, it was software.
So much of either the gigsyou'd get, on whether it's
development or application orbuilding, because at some point
I built some fee managementsystem for a school and things
like that.

(01:57:30):
So for that one it has beeneither the Mwetu solutions
because starting second year,because it was around 2008.
After first year year.
So most of the website, webapplication, software gigs it
was mostly as muay totechnologies yeah, and then, as
I was talking about the family,it was, there was no doubt

(01:57:53):
family justice yeah solutionyeah it was just an sms platform
and thanks to the Africa'sTalking, because in both of them
the Vua and even we're doingquite a bit on the Africa's
Talking and for me, even theinnovations it's mostly the very
simple things.
I mostly even don't go for maybemuch of the web apps and

(01:58:14):
whatever it's, just solutions toexactly whatever it is and in
our resources sms for me works.
You'll find most of mysolutions are mostly 2g's just
solutions yes, as a mess firstor things like that, to get
things done, because thechallenge at that time for the

(01:58:34):
judiciary having spent time theother side.
So come 2016, there is thisopen call for Hill Justice.
Yeah, it's a Dutch basedorganization, but they have an
incubation in Nairobi they'vebeen supporting quite a number
of startups within the Justicespace.
Yeah so, family Justice, our ownpersonal experiences.
My dad passed on in 26 2006.

(01:58:56):
Yeah.
But the process of getting it'scalled succession, the
succession process, has to gothrough the court.
Yeah.
So a person passes on, even ifyou have a will or something
like that, all the members inthe family you have to go to
court, stand before a judge andsay we've agreed to share this
in this manner.

(01:59:16):
Ah, yes, so it's a simpleprocess, but not many people
this manner.
Yes, so it's a simple process,but not many people know that.
Yeah, so that time lots ofbrokers or even today, I think
lots of brokers are in thesystem.
Ah, will, it's a very difficultthing, we will do it for you,
but now I'm here in, maybe I'mhere in Mombasa, yeah, but it
has to be in the high courtwhere that property is mostly so

(01:59:38):
like for me.
I come from Busia.
My dad passes on any propertyor something.
We'll need to file thatsuccession case and go to Busia
in person.
Had I been having maybe arelation in the States or
something those days, they hadto come in person, maybe right
now with Zoom and whatever.
But all of you have to be inbefore a judge in the same room.

(02:00:01):
And he's asking each of you.
So those days when the judgelet's say there is the notice of
court not sitting.
So I've spent time, taken leave, traveled all the way to Busia,
Traveled all the way to Busiaand you find the judge is not
there so you see the time,resources and all that so that

(02:00:25):
was purely what Fama Leah wasdoing.
It was to help keep track ofjust court cases in just SMS.
In case a judge is not sitting,an SMS is sent to all the
people tagged on that casethey'll get, and then you see
for the status of the case.
It's a very short thing.

(02:00:47):
It's like this case came formention.
Maybe today, the next hearingdate, is this, only that knowing
such things or but, you have toappear so that is on the
appearing, is that?
But another thing maybe ifyou're interested in a
particular case but you don'tknow what happened, maybe your
lawyer has gone to court, butyou yourself you're interested

(02:01:07):
in that case, but you have toget it from the lawyer.
So it was like you can get thatinformation.
At least you could text, send ashort code, sms and then get
the status of that case just viaSMS.
That was purely what Famaliawas trying to do we ran the

(02:01:27):
pilot in Kiambu.
But for the business model, forme it was more like the spark.
It is the government that ismeant to be doing this thing for
its citizens.
I see I'm actually doing it.
So we were partnering, so by medeveloped a case management
system that at that time wasworking within the Kiambu law

(02:01:48):
courts.
It's managing the internalcourt processes but litigants
can still access the thing.
So that was how it was working.
But now you see, from abusiness model, kind of thing we
wouldn't we are doing when thegovernment wants now to do that
thing, it's their mandate.

(02:02:08):
So for me it was more of likethe spark for it.

Speaker 2 (02:02:11):
Yes, it can be done so right now.

Speaker 3 (02:02:13):
I'm happy the government actually is doing the
electronic thing.
So for me, for Famalia, that ishow we got the HEAL.
Innovation Fellowship you winthe fellowship.
Yes, so we went to theNetherlands did the, so they
supported the initial bit ofthat.

Speaker 2 (02:02:32):
Very nice and then you, of course, you defend your
PhD for the defense.

Speaker 3 (02:02:39):
That came much later because now I switched.
So, as I was telling you asmuch as I was this other side, I
wanted to get into academia.
So the 2016, I applied for atutorial fellow's job in
Technical University of Mombasa.
Thank God, I get it still doingthis hill thing?

Speaker 2 (02:02:56):
yes, so I came, thank God, I get it.
Oh okay, still doing this hillthing?

Speaker 3 (02:02:59):
yes, oh nice so I came the initial bit, because
now the hill ran from thataround 2016 to 2017 okay so I
was doing it from.
So I came at least I wasteaching a number of days, so I
was doing it in Machakos andKiambu.
So some days of the week I cometo Machakos Kiambu.
So some days of the week I cometo Machako's Kiambu.
But much of it is just thecourt people who are actually

(02:03:22):
working on the beat.

Speaker 2 (02:03:26):
Interesting, because that's when I didn't hear much
about you.
Even online it was not thatmuch, but you know.
So it ends up becoming wherenow you become, starting your
journey as a teacher.

Speaker 3 (02:03:43):
Or a lecturer, but I normally introduce myself at
times just as a teacher.
I don't know, it could be aterminology thing.
It could be a terminology thing.

Speaker 2 (02:03:58):
But it's the same.
You know, I try to tell peoplewho are lecturers that the
biggest career that you can have, that is even blessed, is being
a teacher.
It's a noble profession, andeven everyone at some point they
are teachers.
And even this went all the wayto Jesus Christ, experiencing

(02:04:21):
this world.
So, as a lecturer, that's whereyour journey started, as a
tutorial fellow, and you've donegood for yourself, man.
I look at you and I'm like howdid you get to do all this?
How has that experience been?
Do you miss some fascinatingkids that actually even don't
know they're really smart?

(02:04:42):
And you look at them, you'relike what, man, if you know what
you can do with what, how smartyou are sure, sure, sure, sure,
there is, there is, there is.

Speaker 3 (02:04:55):
There are a lot of fascinating things yeah but, as
I was saying, I think I could bewrong.
Looking back, you see, you'renostalgic or we are nostalgic
about SEI and the way things ranthere.
And then you come, or maybe I'mworking, maybe even at the C4D,
and then I come to theTechnical University of Mombasa.

(02:05:17):
All these public universitieshave different dynamics.
They're big universities, likeyou could be in Chiromo, but
even you don't know theprincipal.
There are all these schools,but there are places where you
could walk to the wholeuniversity could be closer
together.
So there are both advantages anddisadvantages.

(02:05:38):
Had I been, maybe in SEI I maynot be the chair of department
so to speak, but like I'm theprofessor okay, Lord, go home,
SEI wherever it is.

Speaker 4 (02:05:50):
I am right now, so I'm a chair of department, so
it's a different dynamic, so tospeak.

Speaker 3 (02:05:57):
Yeah, but an interesting thing, quite a
number of like.
My co-founder in the VuaSolutions is my former student.
Oh.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:06:07):
Interesting.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:06:08):
So this side I came.
I teach BBIT, bachelor ofBusiness and IT.
Information TechnologyTechnology yeah.
Though within our universityit's best at the school of
business.
Yeah, so I'm a resident sort ofcomputing lecturer within the
school of business yeah but itgoes also the blend.
I did an mba and also the phdsin business information system,

(02:06:32):
so there is that mix, but thereis something having created a
culture.
You see the way I was talkingabout.
Maybe I'm single or somethingyeah the people who join after a
particular time yeah the peoplewho join in after a particular
time.
They, they if they find aparticular culture already.

(02:06:52):
You get to first year and thenyou look at the projects that
people in fourth year have done.
You're like, wow, I can.
It motivates you to do more.
It motivates you to do more, itsparks some curiosity in you to
see.
But if you're the trailblazersor they aren't charting the path

(02:07:13):
, you may be timid at first.
To you're not, not.
There is that imposter syndromein a way.
Or you're not sure aboutyourself, you're not sure of
your capabilities or somethinglike that.
But if at all you find acommunity, yeah ah.

Speaker 2 (02:07:30):
MK was here.

Speaker 3 (02:07:31):
MK was here.
Oh, these guys.
Ah, ngei is here.
Oh, I don't know there is Derek.
Oh, I don't know there is Derek.
Oh, I don't know there is.
They're doing amazing things.
So you're like, by the timeyou're joining, you know these
are the capabilities and I couldeven surpass.
Yes, but now when you're thefirst one trying to chat, only
outliers would be the ones, so agood majority.

(02:07:52):
So that is the culture we aretrying to we are yeah we are
trying to.
We are trying to build, and nowwith support for, like, when
you're having events andencouraging more of these
students to join that bit of thecommunity.
It's in the community that youlearn quite a bit of these
things or even maybe theprogramming in class.
It's not.

(02:08:12):
You're just taught the veryfundamentals of stuff, but now
much of these other things youlearn it either from the
community or from your peers,Because it's hey how did you do
this?
The peer learning is a lot moreimpactful and practical.

Speaker 2 (02:08:31):
It's different from how you don't learn it to pass,
you just learn it because you'recurious To know the skill and
all that.
So it's a different mode.
Learn it to pass.
You just learn it becauseyou're curious.
Yeah, to know the skill and allthat yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:08:39):
So it's a different mode, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (02:08:43):
So how does this Bay Hub, which is Blue Economy
Innovations Hub, start?
Because last time now wetouched base and I don't know
even how I knew you were inTumai.
I'm not sure I don't know.
Did I?
I can't remember well?
I'm not sure I don't know, didI?

Speaker 3 (02:08:59):
I can't remember well , but you are in Mombasa, or
even I don't know how we meet.
I can't remember well.

Speaker 2 (02:09:03):
But you're telling me , there is this business
innovation hub, which is Bay Hub, economy innovation that you
are running at the TechnicalUniversity of Mombasa.
Me, I'm thinking, maybe you arerunning that Kumbay on the
other side you're also alecturer not only a lecturer,
but now, when I meet you, maybea few months or it's a few

(02:09:24):
months afterwards you are likehead of department yes, but I've
been here for quite a whilesince 2016, september so after
C4D.

Speaker 3 (02:09:35):
I just came to teach but from C4D.
I've seen what C4D can do in ahigher learning institution.
Yes, and then for me it's thatcommunity, a conducive space for
co-creation of solutions.
We have C4D.

(02:09:57):
There is the IB's iLab.
You'll find either ChandariaInnovation Center within.
Ku.
They could, they have, I think,D-Hub or something like that.
You go to universities abroad,the MIT's.
There is the D-School.
More than one innovation hubiLab In SA all these vids it is

(02:10:18):
there is the D school More thanone innovation hub.
Yes, in SA, all these VITS, uct, all of them have hubs, labs,
whatever it is you may call them, but it's a platform for
co-creating solutions in thespace.
So I come to TUM and I'm like Ishould, from the C4D experience

(02:10:40):
.
We should just set up a placewhere you could create this
stuff, shock on me.
I think it's the same thing asthe other side.
So the politics within, whetheruniversities or whatever, at
times it's sad, but at timesthere are particular places.
As you're saying, you're havingthese great ideas, but if it's
not pushed by either a doctor,or a professor it doesn't make

(02:11:03):
sense.
It's so it could be the samesame idea, but by whoever.
So part of even the, thedoctorate or whatever.
So I was doing it, but I wouldhave started even it way earlier
.
But because you're not a doc,or something, because now it's
until 2020, when I was, I was adoctor.

(02:11:25):
It was easier to try.
But even at that point thereare lots of internal politics.
Just getting a room, it'sdifferent or whatever.
So at that point even startedit like a virtual, because
ideally it's not a space, yeah.
It's bringing what I was callingthe quadrihealics, it's just

(02:11:47):
not academia.
So bring together academia,bring together private sector,
the actual users and evengovernment in the space, civil
society, to co-create solutions.
The solution could have, couldbe more impactful.
So that is the thesis that weare having.
So what would make the hubdifferent from C4D, from?

Speaker 2 (02:12:10):
what is the?
Difference for us.

Speaker 3 (02:12:14):
So at that point the university, technical university
of Mombasa, on one end ittouches the sea on one end.
So blue economy was a perfectfit for us.
Yeah, so we we didn't call itmaybe a lab or an incubation
center, very specifically,because an incubation I don't

(02:12:39):
have the resources to at thatpoint to incubate or to, but I
was just.
I needed a platform where weare co-creating this.
And then I'm coming from acomputing background, so blue
economy seemed it's a different.
But I look back, I'm more inthe fisheries.
I had some love for fish andeven the project that I did in

(02:12:59):
undergrad was on a fish farmingor something like that.
So out of it.
There is a great.
So there are lots of greatresearchers in tomb there's a
doctor called dr cosmos munga.
He's in the fisheries andmarine.
He's a really specialist inthat but packaging that within
the fisheries and marineecosystem.
He's revered so I was likeanything so peak strategic uh

(02:13:25):
leads in these other thematicareas within the blue economy
yeah so in fisheries there is alead in maritime transport in
the coastal tourism.
Wow in environment.
And then we, we can weco-create, yes so along those
conversations, is where supportnow?
because at the initial stagesupport either startups that are

(02:13:46):
in this specific space yeah so,like the kuzafriza, you'll be
having maybe the podcast withdeno, yeah, so there are quite a
number of startups within theblue economy.
So there is a guy calledMorganics.
They're doing seaweed andcreating fertilizer out of it.
So that was the drive.

(02:14:08):
And, being within an academicinstitution, there are quite a
number of hubs that are there,so, like the Sote or the Swahili
Box.

Speaker 2 (02:14:16):
Close the Gap.

Speaker 3 (02:14:18):
What was paining me is most of them.
It's our students who go tothose apps.
But it's only the outliers, theguys who will push themselves to
go there.
What if we're having somethingwithin where now more people
it's a space within that a lotmore people could the way I was
telling you, a spark, you'll seesomething after 40 years that

(02:14:40):
it could ignite something withinyou.
That has been the goal.
It's not been an easy journey,even maybe internally for some
quarters or something like that,getting space or something like
that we could partner with.
We ran some Solid Westhackathon, but now in

(02:15:01):
partnership with Close the Gapat that time or now with Sote in
the Blue Economy investmentsummits and things like that.
So lots of collaborations andpartnership with other ecosystem
players to just take it ahead.
So, like the Vua solution, it'sa startup, so I was creating.
It's a startup, so I wascreating it as a platform where
now other people you could pluginto this platform and figure

(02:15:25):
out how it could be of benefitto you and impactful to the
society.

Speaker 2 (02:15:31):
Yeah, yes, and the interesting part, matthew, is
that Vua economy is a sleepinggiant.
When you think about it for aminute, I think we heard off the
camera and off the recordingconversation on how big this
could be and none of us actuallycould wrap around why people
are not exploring all theseopportunities, and maybe guys

(02:15:54):
can tell us under the comments.
For me it was just a break andmortar kind of business.
If I think about Dar es Salaamor Tanzania, people want to go
to the island and I'm sure evenhere in Kenya we have some
islands.
I know people who travel toLamu just to wind down and have
a good time, and I know alsoplaces like Miami where they do

(02:16:15):
cruise ship business, rightsentertainment, or even in a
smaller scale they do cruiseship business where it's
entertainment, or even in asmaller scale they do ocean
parties, some nice, I don't knowboats where you go just have
some packages, and these areactually just to stimulate the
economy, because in that thereare people who are serving the
drinks, there are DJs there,there are people who may be

(02:16:37):
serving some you know ghostcuisine.
In that economy you can find alot of things happening.
All Mombasa is known for isduring December or Easter
holiday, people come here, go tothe beach and that's it.
Maybe I'm just ignorant.
And when it comes to exploringthe ocean and the fishery and

(02:16:59):
all these days, so much, whatfor you?
Is it something that actuallygets you starting Vua at this
point, whereby now you areadding value, addition, export?
And one example is how peoplefish tuna and package it, and
even we are looking at how doyou package it and add value.

(02:17:21):
If you sell tuna here, you'llsell at X.
If you sell it far away fromhere, just add some few value
and preserve it, you add 10 X.
If you take it to Nairobi,maybe 100 or 200 X.
Why is it so difficult tonavigate these waters?
I know Kusa Freezer is doing anamazing job in.

(02:17:42):
How do you preserve?
How do you bring it to the dryland?
How do you preserve it afteryou don't sell everything in the
evening?
How do you do your fishing?
And then maybe for the week youdon't have to go to the ocean
every single day.
How do you serve it fresh?
So there are it's white andblack.
There's a lot of opportunitiesthat could be explored.

(02:18:03):
What is the biggest challengein this marine economy?

Speaker 3 (02:18:11):
As you rightfully started, blue economy.
For me it has been there.
It's a buzzword for now andthere is quite some bit of focus
towards it, but since the daysof our great grandfathers, just

(02:18:32):
taking advantage sustainably ofany water resources would be
termed blue economy.
So, whether the fishing, themaritime transport, the shipping
, the port that is here and allthe tread and all that is
handled by the maritime shipping, and then there is the coastal
marine conservation, themangroves, carbon how is the

(02:18:53):
carbon created?
Because the blue carbon wouldbe.
It is removing lots and lots ofCO2 compared to even
terrestrial, terrestrial forestsand things like that.
So the opportunities are immense, so to speak, and there's been
a lot of focus.

(02:19:13):
So government like there arequite a number of projects and
programs that have been running,whether by development partners
, government itself.
There is a world bank projectcalled cancer that is meant to
stimulate that.
Yeah, so lots of partners,whether it's venture builders
yeah like even for vuor.
Yeah, it was part of afellowship by bfa global.

(02:19:34):
Oh, shout out to them.
So they picked 30 fellows fromall across Africa and you are to
partner amongst yourselves andcome up with new ventures within
the blue economy space, butdoing that so they have a
climate smart aspect to it.

(02:19:58):
So, whether it will be asolution within the tourism
environment or fisheries- but, Iwas more inclined to fishermen
and fisheries, but other thanwhatever it is, our project
maybe is working on.
There is lots of opportunitiesand we just can't do enough of

(02:20:19):
it.
Looking at it, maybe as asystems approach to it, there's
a startup that we are partneringwith.
It's called Kumbatia Seafood.
They get tuna from an islandcalled Kiwayu, but right now
they've expanded to almost allthe islands in Lamu.

(02:20:43):
So, whether Amu, Kiwayu, kiunga, faza, pate, they're getting
fish from there and they'regiving a premium to the
fishermen.
But for them they've moved anotch Because the quality, even
if you want to take it either tonow Nairobi or for exports

(02:21:04):
right now they're getting intothe export market the quality
has to be top notch, so it'ssushi grade for that.
So they have to empower theinfrastructure, they have to
empower their fishers with ice.
They go with ice while fishingon their expeditions.
They'll have to train them.
So there are lots of trainingon how they got the fish, how

(02:21:26):
they bleed and all that.
And then now moving that,because now they transport even
just using buses, but now theice and all that to me, how it's
packaged to the other side.
So that could be one aspect.
And then the mindset, especiallyof, because we could be looking
at at this point, I'm lookingat some disconnect, so to speak

(02:21:48):
yeah there is a way a vc looksat, uh, at the startups, yeah,
and then there is a way so like,maybe for vuor we could be more
from an impact perspective,because we're only working with
around 40 fishers, so much ofthe impact on them because
they're serving our platform.

(02:22:08):
We're partnering with Kumbatia,as Kumbatia pays these fishers
automatically a particularpercentage either 10, 20 is
served for them Because fishingis a seasonal thing.
So about six or less months ofbumper harvest and some other
ones nothing.

(02:22:30):
And there are lots more ofchamas.
And all that for women, but nowmen, not necessarily.
So for us it was more gearedtowards them, but not those
fishers who fish sustainably.
So, like for tuna fishing, it'sonly you're catching one at a
time, but now the fishing reelsare quite expensive.
We'd get one for 80k or more.

(02:22:52):
So like even in our pilot partof whatever it is we did, it's
give credit to this, but out oftheir savings.
So they serve.
So the discipline to serve isnot there and shout out to Chura
and Chooms.
I told some the time I saw thatthere are lots of these either
loan apps and more of a loaningthan the saving culture.

Speaker 2 (02:23:18):
So Chooms is more of saving than just loans.

Speaker 3 (02:23:21):
They don't even do loans.
I doubt, I doubt if they'redoing loans so it's more of
saving and either gettingreturns from your savings, so
it'll be better returns than thebank Because it's more of a
money market.
So they're partnering with amoney market fund where at least
you're getting some interestout of your savings, yeah, so

(02:23:41):
for encouraging just thatculture, not just yes it's a
game changer, so it was almostthe same bit about these guys
you could serve, but now thediscipline to serve is where
either the fishers are nothaving.
So that is the point that we'recoming with as well, because so
far there is a lot of impactthat it has created on this,

(02:24:05):
because you'll find in a daythey could spend more than 5K on
fuel.
But if they just don't havethat fuel it's a problem.
But the guy has saved over 20K,so it'll be nice to give him
part of the money, but he'lljust repay it, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (02:24:21):
You mentioned that it's six months of harvesting.
Let me call it that way forfishers and six months of
seasonal, you can't do much.
Is this castigated by thetooling?
Is it castigated by the weather?

Speaker 3 (02:24:36):
It's mostly weather, because the sea is rough, is it?
Castigated by the weather.
What is the challenge?
It's mostly weather.
It's mostly weather Because thesea is rough.
So in Swahili they say there iskusi and kaskazi.
Or the scientific ones they callthem, I don't know some monsoon
winds, so I don't knowsouthwest or north monsoon winds
.
So like right now betweeneither November and around, so
let's say, September, but thepeak could come from either

(02:24:58):
November, December into aroundMarch.
April would be.
The seas are calmer so theycould go deeper into the sea,
but after that the seas becomerough, so much of the fishing
they'll just do either footfishing or in the near shore
waters, so there could be moreon the other side that they

(02:25:21):
could get.
So it'll be different speciesthat they get.
But even if they get, the seasare rough and there are quite a
number of even seasonal fishers.
During those low months theydon't even go for fishing.
But you see, you still haveneeds that you'll need the

(02:25:41):
financial life keep moving.
So whether you're taking kidsto school or healthcare needs or
things like that, yeah, it'sstill so, so.

Speaker 2 (02:25:50):
So if I had a startup and and I could provide maybe
the tooling, which means maybebetter boats, but, you know,
even educate them on um.
Okay, I cannot talk about overfishing here because at the end
of the day, when I look at it,it's still small fishing, under
fishing, rather yeah, it is itcould actually change the

(02:26:10):
dynamics because that means youcould go a bit further into the
sea where you know it is allowedand you could still do fishing.
Maybe cut that into instead ofsix months it becomes nine
months, maybe three months of nofishing, according to
experience and how.
Maybe you understand, becauseyou have more info and
understanding of the landscapemore than I do.

(02:26:32):
Do you think that would reallyfly?

Speaker 3 (02:26:37):
Maybe partly because the other thing, a mindset, or
let's say, the fishery, is thisside.
Yeah, you'll find the fisheriesin inland maybe, like Victoria,
is quite more advanced, orthey're looking at it more from
the business, from the businesssense and all that.

(02:27:00):
I don't know.
Maybe the hunch that I'll have.
There are also quite a numberof Wanitoa Pemba, either from TZ
or whatever.
I don't know if it's the skillof fishing, that they have a
better skill so they could comehere and even they fish from
this.
They come fishing our waters,quite a number of, even the, the

(02:27:23):
people owning boats they couldemploy, um, to come do fishing
for them.
But now they remember they'llreceive the cash, just keep it.
But within that fishing seasonthe guy could go home with, even
over in terms of in the regionof millions.
Yes, so I don't know whetherit's a mindset thing, a training

(02:27:46):
thing, a skills thing for someof them.
So it's.
There are lots of dynamics toit, so there are those who are
actually doing it as a businessaggressively and in a particular
way.
But you know today, but there islots of potential, and then

(02:28:10):
you'll find the industrialfishing will definitely be way
more, more, more, more.
How should I put it?
It would bring in definitelymore progress.

Speaker 2 (02:28:23):
So of course, definitely, it sounds like even
there is some mindset educationshift that needs to happen.
But of course, for Wapemba andZanzibar you know they are in
Ireland and I think for thegeneration and generation that
could be the only source ofliving that they have been used
to.
So it's generational, which Icall apprenticeship.

(02:28:46):
I'm not a believer of mentorship, as I keep saying and the
reason is that when you learnsomething by seeing how it's
done, you internalize it moreand you can actually innovate
around it.
So, Matthew, what is the nextthing?
I don't want to ask you aboutthe ring on the finger.
But uh, how is family?

(02:29:08):
How is the family?

Speaker 3 (02:29:09):
we, thank we, thank we, thank god, thank god we're
doing great.
That's true.
You told me off the mic sometime back, but uh, you told me
off the mic some time back, butlet's leave it for now, I'm
curious.

Speaker 2 (02:29:21):
How you're waiting and how you promise.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:29:30):
I think I get it.
It's life, it's life.

Speaker 2 (02:29:33):
It's life.

Speaker 3 (02:29:36):
I'm really grateful.
Yeah, yeah.
Mar wife has been a greatsupport sister.
The same frequency of stupidity, that's how I call it.
The same frequency of crazy, orthe same frequency of madness
because you have done amazing,amazing stuff we met after, but

(02:30:00):
Medicine or business.

Speaker 2 (02:30:01):
No, no, I was doing microbiology, chiromo still yeah
, yeah, microbiology, there'ssemiconductor Microbiome, oh
nice.

Speaker 3 (02:30:10):
Biotechnology, though we started dating way after
campus.
But yeah, it has been a greatsupport system.

Speaker 2 (02:30:17):
Guys, you're here, you go to the university.

Speaker 3 (02:30:21):
So you get a couple of degrees and look around.

Speaker 2 (02:30:23):
you know it might come in handy Even.
I don't know, if yeah, a coupleof guys I can mention here but
let me not mention we're notmentioning, but you know, I know
some of them who have gottentheir wives there.
Including the doctor himself, DrMwansa.
But yeah, it's a good thing andthat's how life is supposed to

(02:30:46):
be.
And I think, shout out to allthe women who stand by their men
.
And I know, you know,relationship, marriage is not
really easy per se and to somemaybe it's easy, but of course
it has its own challenges.
You have self-doubt and youhave a partner who actually
tells you man, you know you'llget this PhD, even if it's after

(02:31:06):
five years.
When you get it it will changeand actually it can contribute
more.
You don't get frustration whenyou want to start a hub and that
alone actually can actuallygive you some strength.
If you have children, there'ssomeone actually who gives them
motherly love and support.
And even for the ladies on theother side, having a husband is

(02:31:29):
a good thing, because lifesometimes can be a bit chaotic
to some extent.
So shout out men and I thoughtI should say that for all the
married men Sometimes you knowyou don't celebrate married men,
it's always about, you know.
Mother's Day, Girl Child Day,Women International.

Speaker 3 (02:31:48):
Women's Day.

Speaker 2 (02:31:50):
Yeah.
So everyone who is stuck withthe relationship shout out to
you and keep at it.
Family is a very importantthing.
So what's next for uh, hub, bay, hub.
What's next for voa?
Uh, and what's next for tomb?
Technical university of mombasa.

Speaker 3 (02:32:10):
Now that you're the hod, uh, for me it's taking
taking a step at a time.
Definitely, the things wouldlove to happen, maybe a lot
faster, but within government,so to speak, it's a change

(02:32:33):
within.
I call myself an entrepreneur.
The guys would want to be anentrepreneur within the
government institutions within.
The systems, because quite anumber of people are like why
wouldn't this be?
You know the challenges withuni or whatever, so you could
just start it at the side andyou do a lot more at the side.

(02:32:55):
But for me it is what it is.
It can impact if it's within ifit's within the uni.
So I'm looking to moresolutions, especially for, and
collaborations within within,within the bay hub.
Yes, to create a lot more impactto changing lives in the

(02:33:16):
society, especially within thiscoastal space where we are.
So that could be for Bay Huband even, by extension,
Technical University of Mombasa,impacting more lives For Vua.
We're looking into partnershipsand changing lives of just
those small scale fishers.

(02:33:37):
Yeah, there is a bit aboutlooking at.
You know, there is a way it maynot be making the return on
investment.
If you're looking at it from thebusiness case and scaling and
all that.
Why not concentrate on now thedeep sea fishing, which could be
a lot more maybe profitable,though it's quite more.

(02:33:58):
You need more to to invest in,and but for me, I'm normally
drawn to more of the impact oflike the social economics and
inclusion yeah, financialinclusion for those who are.
So that is for me.
It's more.
I'm more driven at a personallevel to to search I don't know,

(02:34:18):
maybe it's through either myupbringing or but we have
different ways of looking atthings but at least providing
more inclusion to for me thesmall-scale blue economy players
.
So, like Favua, will be gettinginto other players within the
blue economy space but, focusingon the small scale ones.

Speaker 2 (02:34:41):
Yeah, yes.

Speaker 3 (02:34:42):
Ah, interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:34:44):
So, dr Ari, yes, please talk to our viewers.
If you want, you can requestthem to subscribe and give them
the parting shot.
Wow, you can look at that.

Speaker 3 (02:35:11):
Please subscribe to the called impact masters.
Yeah, masters podcast, podcast,masters media media.

Speaker 2 (02:35:16):
Please subscribe to to to called Impact Masters.
Impact Masters Podcast, impactMasters Media.

Speaker 3 (02:35:19):
Please subscribe to their podcasts.
My parting shot try be thechange that you want.
All of us could give quite abit, but let hope be the last
that you could lose.
You could lose every otherthing, but don't lose hope Just

(02:35:43):
be the change that you can be oryou want to be.
I think I could leave it atthat Subscribe to their podcast
and they're doing lots ofamazing stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:35:55):
Thank you so much.
An amazing, amazing, amazingstuff.
Thank you so much.
Yes, an amazing, amazing,amazing stuff.
So I've made it our culturalhabits to conclude with african
proverb, or proverb from africateeth, or a proverb from Africa

(02:36:19):
Teeth do not see poverty.
And this proverb talks a lotabout what is happening in
Africa in different levels,especially the high levels that
people keep eating Even wherethey are not supposed to be

(02:36:43):
eating.
So, even when circumstances aredire, people still manage to
find something to smile about.
That's the other side of thepeople, who's whatever is eaten
should do more to them.
And the reason why this proverbI find it really interesting
for this conversation is that Ibelieve Africa should not be

(02:37:07):
where it is, but I also believeit's a collective, intentional,
consistent action that will getus to where we are.
And, by the way, I sound likethe guy who is saying we are,
and, by the way, I might soundlike we are not.
You know the guy who is sayingwe are so badly off, but the
truth is me and you might notconsider ourselves badly off,

(02:37:27):
but the majority don't know evenwhat they will hit this evening
.
So with that, I find that,whatever you are, if you ever
listen to this.
You have a responsibility.
That one of those things thatyou do every day.
Or even if you are a doctor,you are a professor, you are a

(02:37:50):
lecturer, you are a farmer, youare contributing in that small
deed that you do and throughthat collective action, we'll
get there where we're supposedto be.
If you're a leader, stop eatingtoo much.
Start seeing the poverty,because the enemy is always the
poverty.
Without further ado, this wasMichael Kemadi, if you want MK,

(02:38:13):
and it was Africa's TalkingPodcast in collaboration with
Impact Masters Podcasts.
You can find Africa'salkingAPIs communication APIs on
africastalkingcom, and AfricaStalking empowers business to
grow and developers to buildthrough the APIs.
Sms solutions when you talkabout OTP that you receive when

(02:38:37):
you do transaction that isAfrica Stalking solution.
Voice APIs that you can createcustomer care or contact center,
like our friend here who triedin 2010, 2009, to do IVR.
Africa Stalking then wasn't athing, but you can see the

(02:39:03):
potential that we have.
So we provide 2G solutionsacross 54 countries in Africa
and we're registered in over 20markets in Africa.
Check out africastalkingcomstalkingcom.
If you like podcasts, justcheck us out on Spotify, iheart,

(02:39:25):
amazon Music, google Podcasts,apple Podcasts or any other
podcast that is your favoriteacross the world.
Until next time, have a blessedday, evening, morning, wherever
you are.
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