#55 IMPACT MASTER: FINDING YOUR TECH PATH | JAPHETH OBALA - Impact Masters Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Welcome once again at africa.
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Impact Masters we are lightingimpact, move us and shake us in

(01:21):
tech across Africa.
But as Impact Masters, weprovide tech solutions,
entertainment and with a keeneye to see what solutions do we
build at scale while empoweringother businesses that are
building tech solutions acrossafrica.
I'm your host, michael kemari.
Call me nk ntai, and today wehave an amazing guest, the man

(01:50):
himself, the epitome, the guywho knows how to find his way
out of tech.
I've known this chief for quitesome time now, about a few
years, since 2006.
Years or seven years, he hasgone ahead and built a portfolio

(02:13):
for himself, working for Andelabecause you are old enough to
remember Andela Moving toMicrosoft and proceeding to
build something at Netify.
But we'll cover all that,johnny.
So I consider him a mover and ashaker and you know, today we

(02:37):
share his story here, live anddirect.
His name is Japheth ObalaJapheth.
How are you?
I'm good, how are you?
Ah, good, good, I've beenlooking for you for a while now
to do this.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I guess the moving part is true for the
movers and shakers.
Yeah, shaking on, no, just themoving.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, you've been moving a lot and you are so
swift at it.
But the interesting thing isthat your story is quite
something.
But even before we get to thetech part because I knew from
the tech back in December whichyear were you then- how old do
you mean?
When we met or you had justdropped off university, yeah,

(03:20):
2016.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
2016,.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
yeah, so you were still in school or you were just
dropped out.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
When we met, I dropped out already.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, you can hear this.
He's the guy when Mark or Elonor Bill Gates said you know, I
dropped out of Harvard.
He's also a son, that kind ofstory.
But where did it all start?
Where did Jafet Obala start?
Where were you born?
Be as specific as possible.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Right.
Born and raised in Mombasa.
Which part Likoni?
Oh, you're from Likoni, I'mfrom Likoni, oh wow.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Looks like Likoni produces the best.
Yeah, even yesterday we had aconversation with someone from
Likoni, yeah, doing some amazinghardware stuff.
I know you know the guy, dennisOkon.
Yeah, I know Dennis.
Yeah, amazing stuff.
And before that, I think, yeah,a couple of guys also from
Likoni doing some amazing stuff.
Yeah, so you're born fromLikoni, yeah, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
So born and raised, essentially lived my whole life
in Likoni, and then I went toprimary school there.
Which one is this?
It's a school called theNolinda Academy.
Oh not the public one, right?
Fortunately, I went to aprivate school, okay, and then I
went to high school in AlidinaVistrum.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Ah, but I'm not a kaka.
Yeah, you know, when I converseI like painting a picture of,
like that journey, because, yousee, right now we might see
Jafet, who is a senior softwareengineer, but for guys who are
starting up, even for the guysin the industry, it's good to
know that the reason why thisperson thinks this way, the

(05:04):
reason why they see they moveswiftly, is because of this
journey.
And this is actually a borderfrom how our billionaires and
millionaires tell their story.
They just run around like wheredid you get your breakthrough?
When did you decide to become abusiness mongol?
Or when did you get to abreakthrough?
How, how, when, when, when didyou decide become a business

(05:25):
mongol or when did you do this?
So we, we have like a couple ofhours to do this, so don't rush
through.
I'm all right.
Yes, yes.
So primary school you go therefor nursery or you went for um
standard one, two plus eight uhso nursery went somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, nursery went to A school called Consolato
Primary school.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Still in.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Rizconi or yeah, yeah .
So when I say Rizconi, likevery specific part Called Mtongo
, which is closer to the KenyaNavy base, which will be
important Later in the series,it's well off actually.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
It's like Much better than the main Rizconi Right no?

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Not exactly, not exactly.
Yeah, yeah, so that's where Iwas for eight years.
I think I lived my best life inprimary school.
Okay, what was best about it?
Yeah, so I don't know, it'sjust that I was.
I remember being very happy inprimary school.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, it'sjust that I was.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
I remember being very happy in primary school.
Yeah, I knew this kid wascheeky, playful or just, you
know, reserved and just tryingto get the best grades out of it
.
Always number one, you know.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
A little bit of both actually.
I'm by nature very cheeky.
Actually, I have a lot of dadjokes, and I was also involved
in a bit of sports.
I had good relationships withteachers and friends, so I was
generally very happy in primaryschool.

(06:56):
Which sport?
Football.
In Kenya, there is only onesport really, if you ask me.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
I talk to people who play hockey and they try to
teach me what is hockey.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, I mean, there is football, and then there is
other things, yeah, so sport bydefault is football.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Ah, okay, guys from Rift Valley might disagree.
Like sport first is running andthen, anything else, but even
football.
Football you run right.
So you had a good relationshipwith your, your teachers oh,
yeah, very, very much.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
So, um, I was not really a teacher's first, but,
uh, like there is this oneteacher who was very close to uh
, it's called mr riga and, um,what happened is I used to go to
his house every time afterclasses to do maths.

(07:52):
Oh, really, without tuition,without paying anybody, but it
was tuition Without tuition fee?

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, without tuition fee.
Why, in particular you?

Speaker 2 (08:01):
I don't know.
I think what I remember isthere was folks in the Upper
class who were going To somefortuitous training, and then I
just joined them.
I said let me go and see what'shappening.
Then, after those guys leftwhen they left, I was in class 7
at that time so I started goingmyself and then I just kept

(08:24):
Going afterwards.
So you found yourself driven.
So I started going myself andthen I just kept going
afterwards.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
So he found you self-driven, yeah, and it was
impressive to him.
And he also had tea every timeI went there, so that helped so
there was a motivation to gothere for you, but did the
teacher know that actually, oneof the things that keeps you
coming back is the tea?

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, I was going there for the math, really, and
then the tea was anotheradvantage, hey, so we're still
very good friends.
I was actually at his placeearlier this year, mm-hmm, so
Just paying a visit, and yeah, Ivisited him a number of times,
spent the night at his place,met his wife and kids, so we

(09:06):
have a very good relationship.
So that means it means a lot toyou even after that.
Yes, yeah, in fact, most peoplein primary school thought he
was my father, because we werevery close.
What did your father think?
Well, I lost my father when Iwas 10 years old, so he had
passed on by that time.
So he did, yeah, but my motherwasn't complaining, so she was

(09:26):
happy with that ah, so it isvery interesting.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Uh, did you go there because you feel like you needed
some extra, you know, uh,tuition on math, or you just,
you know, just wanted to graspthe concepts beyond just the
class well, to be honest, Idon't remember exactly why I
started going, but maybe it'sjust the influence of the the
other folks who are going there.

(09:50):
Really.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
But as a consequence I became very good at math From
visiting.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, and that really impressed you.
You loved math for that.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yes, I did.
I'm still a math nerd up tothis point.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Oh right Is there any other subject of interest
beyond math?
Math for that, yes, I, I did.
Uh, I'm still a math nerd up tothis point.
All right, right.
Is there any other subject ofinterest beyond math?

Speaker 2 (10:09):
um, I'll say philosophy philosophy, yeah,
okay.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Okay, now I'm not surprised why you are.
You're a software engineer.
Yeah, because, uh, the math,rational and and philosophical
way of how people perceivethings, that's a good
combination.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, although I must add that I only picked up
philosophy like a year ago,accidentally.
Actually, I tell this story toeveryone who cares to ask.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Why in particular philosophy?

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah.
So I was going shopping with mywife when I was in London and
then I came across aphilosophical magazine on
aesthetics, and it's the firsttime I read something that I
felt like the author was tryingto convince me in the way of
thinking, because what thejournal is is a bunch of experts
, each one giving their owninterpretation of the subject

(11:05):
matter, and I found myselfsaying, yeah, I agree with that
author and disagree with thisother person.
So that was so mind-blowing,having the same thing covered by
different people.
Then that's where I became very, very fascinated with
philosophy.
Yeah, and I've just been likein a rabbit hole since then

(11:27):
Never come out, yeah, ah.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, philosophy is great.
Man Like yeah, First timeactually, I'm having a
philosophical conversation withsomeone geared towards
engineering and, yeah, some ofthe you know software
engineering courses like in KU.
You know they are so far.
You know software engineeringcourses like in KU.
You know they also offered.
You know the way you getcommunication and HIV aids.

(11:49):
You know those extra coursesthat are not directly related to
your course, but they offeredphilosophy course.
I thought I would get thatwhere I went to the investor but
unfortunately I've been an avidyou know reader and researcher
of philosophy because Iunderstand if you build
something, you build for someoneelse beside you.

(12:10):
So you have to understand howpeople perceive things, how
people make decisions, howpeople you know see things and
consume things.
But anyway, we'll get deeperinto that as we go.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
I can just say something what philosophy has
been for me has been like havinga pair of glasses, like I've
gotten to see things in a newperspective and sort of like
appreciate things more than Ithink.
Initially I was veryindifferent to situations or
things and now I have like adeeper understanding or a deeper

(12:45):
appreciation, yeah, of, uh, ofstuff.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah yeah, oh, interesting, and okay, I'll ask
this swally like kizushi later.
Yeah, now that you say that,but if I, if I remember that I
need to ask it, or if thecommission leads them.
So, after you finish, uh, uh,class eight, uh, how did you
perform, man?
Because going to the Highschool you mentioned earlier on

(13:10):
Is not an easy peasy thing.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yes, well, I didn't perform as good as expected I
would perform, but it was notthat bad.
So I did well, though Not asgood as I would have wanted.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
What did you want?
500?

Speaker 2 (13:26):
out of 500?
We just say we thank God forDelaware.
And then I was called toAledina Vistrom.
The only thing I knew aboutAledina at that time Was that
the former index one In ourprimary school we must have
performed really well, thoughyou're a bit, uh, you know,

(13:48):
humbling, uh and modest with theresults.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
But you guys, if here the next one went to aldina you
are, your guess is as good asmine, yeah, so so you also, like
, you associated that with, like, the success of the secondary
school.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Well, Alina is a good school.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
So I was happy to go there.
But I would say, compared to myexperience with secondary
school to primary school, I wasway heavier in primary school
than in secondary school.
Why is that?
I think In secondary school,with the onset of adolescence,
adolescence and Not havingGuidance, let me say yeah,

(14:34):
someone Not having a male figureAt that time Because my father
had passed away, like when I wasWay earlier.
So I was mostly Very confusedwhat do I do?
And not knowing any better, isit mixed school?
It's a boys' school.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
It must have been very difficult for you.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, and it's a day school as well, so I used to
cross the ferry every day forfour years.
Twice, every day for four years, yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Because now Aldina is in the Mombasa mainland and
you're coming from Brikoni.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, Okay, so that was quite interesting.
Fun fact actually I never gotan A in high school in maths.
The only A I got was in KCSE.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
So yeah, there's no tuition, there's no extra
tuition, there's no one asfriendly, no one to guide you.
Did they have a counsellingdepartment?

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, I was not a counselling case.
I was just like distracted, letme put it that way, like I was
not focusing on my studies.
I was just like a rudderlessship, let me put it that way.
So I think the messenger toldme okay, you're not going to get
an A in KCC, so I only got itto spite him.
Then, after the KCC, I went tohis office and told him yes, I

(15:48):
got an A, so I can be petty.
But yeah, that's what you didoriginally.
Yeah, that's what I did.
And what did he say?
He said, yeah.
He would say yeah, got an A.
There's nothing else he couldsay.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, yeah.
There's nothing else you couldsay yeah, yeah.
So math has always been.
You know the subject is soconfident that you can figure it
out even for yourself.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, like I've even done some self-studying after
campus.
Yeah, I've studied linearalgebra and calculus and
performed really well.
This is just self-study, thatisn't an assessment Just to get
a better appreciation of theconcepts, because you see,
mathematics is like a language.

(16:31):
It essentially describes things.
The calculus describes therights of change, stuff like
that.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
So just to get a better appreciation of what the
formulas really mean, yeah, soI've done that as well it's an
impressive way of putting it fora guy who just got an a and
went to his high school to tellhim you told me I'll fail in my
math, but here's an a, yeah,yeah, it's easy, it's really.
It should make it sound reallyeasy and it's good, and breaking

(17:00):
it down to parts that actuallymake sense to any person.
Yeah, um, so what was yoursecret, man?
Like, what was your secret withmath specifically?

Speaker 2 (17:11):
I have no secret really.
It's more of like a naturaldisposition, like, say, a
natural inclination towardssomething.
Like you just find some thingseasier or more attractive, sort
of like a pulling to somethingrather than having a secret
recipe to share really.
So, for anyone who is not goodat math, I'm sorry, I don't have
any advice.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Keep struggling, continue struggling.
Yeah, what do you struggle with?
Is it Swahili English In termsof Violet, or what did you used
to struggle with?

Speaker 2 (17:44):
It wasn't that interesting um, I think, well,
I've not.
I've not had a lot of struggles, but I think the thing that
I've strived the most to be goodat is, I'll say, communication.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, you're not like a guy who will always start a
conversation and follow through.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
For things that like.
Once I get interested insomething, I can be really
chatty about it.
But if I'm not interested,you'll probably find me very
boring.
I'll just sit without you thisis a monologue and maybe ask
questions to appear polite, notlike that Interesting.
So, learning to make the otherperson feel like they're being

(18:38):
listened to.
It's not like the communicationI am the one speaking.
It's more like the listeningpattern.
It's not like the communicationI am the one speaking.
It's more of like the listeningpattern, helping the other
person feel more listened to,because sometimes I tend to like
want when we talk.
Sometimes I'll leave theconversation feeling like I've

(18:58):
said things I should have said,or rather feeling like I should
have given the other person abig opportunity to speak.
So that's, that's been the partthat I struggled with yeah, so
you overanalyze aftercommunicating oh yeah, like I
really I have to go and thinkabout what I say.
I try, I try to be must be hard.

(19:19):
Yeah, I mean, I try to not saytoo much.
I try not to say not to not saytoo much.
I try not to say not to not saytoo much.
I'm going to try to do that inthis podcast, but it's unlikely.
It's different.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, like this is your story and the more people
actually understand because Ifeel, man, you've done a lot of
things that actually maybe younever thought were possible.
You just say, okay, let me doit, let me try it, let me try it
, and they happen.
And you can imagine how manyguys, not only in recording, but
across the world or even acrossAfrica, who are in that

(19:53):
position where you were maybe acouple of years ago.
Yeah, sure, so basically, thisis the story.
Right, you know the authenticstory that's why we don't
prepare so much in theseconversations.
The authentic story that's whywe don't prepare so much in
these conversations, yeah, yeah,so feel free, but I hear you,
because even me, sometimes, I'llanalyze after every
conversation, and it's so hard.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
Sometimes I feel like , ah, maybe I hurt someone by
giving some useless example,yeah, or maybe I thought maybe
guys need low level examples toreally, you know, process things
.
I was like maybe I could havegiven this crazy scientific use
case, yeah, but I also feel likeI should have I will left
another.
So there is no right way tolike package what you say.

(20:33):
And then I find I I can totally, totally relate with that of
analyzing.
After you know and I've seen acouple of guys who really go
through that I think it's notyour fault, it's the way it is.
And math makes it easierbecause math mostly are farts.
It's like if zero is zero, oneis one, so it's easier to relate

(20:59):
to farts.
So in high school you said youstruggled with adolescence
because there was no one to lookup to.
Did you date?
Did you know someone to youknow?
Express yourself and try to seethey will understand you from
the opposite gender yeah, um, somaybe, like, maybe I should
correct something.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's not like I was struggling with adolescents,
it's just that being anadolescent not having guidance,
uh, it's like what to direct myenergy?
Yeah, so it was very.
I was very distracted, liketrying different things, not
drugs, like now that you've saiddrugs, now I'm thinking about
it so like going to playstationover indulging in that.

(21:37):
So, regarding dating, I datedin my form 4, which is like the
worst time to get into arelationship, but yeah yeah and
uh.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Now that you said communication was hard, now I
see the other part of like howdo I even express myself?
How do I present my me as obala, and will they even understand
why I'm presenting myself thesedays?
So also, was it a challenge foryou.
You know, like get butterflies.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
I know I've never been there.
No, I was there.
Oh, you're the guy who justthis is it.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Oh, nice, Nice, Then then.
Then it's not like you can'tcommunicate because you choose
not.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Like I said, the communication part that I
struggle with is like making theother person, like listening to
the other person and notovershadowing the conversation.
I don't have the problem withexpressing myself.
The problem is actually Iover-express myself.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Oh, I see Languages English, swahili was.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
English and Swahili yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
No, I mean, did you perform well?

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, I did fairly good yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah okay, so you do your KCSE and you pass really
well.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, did you get an A?
No, I didn't get an A For thelast.
Yeah, there's somewhere there B, b, b plane.
No, I got a B+.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
B+, yeah, and then you get invited to the
university which?

Speaker 2 (23:08):
university did you apply to?
It was actually called toGarissa University.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
So you could be a guy who was already gone.
Is that time or I?

Speaker 2 (23:16):
remember telling you this story.
So yeah, when the GarissaUniversity attack happened, that
was my court.
I was supposed to be in thatcourt.
What yeah?

Speaker 1 (23:26):
So you're the chosen one.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Well, I wouldn't say that we have just been lucky.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, no, there's no luck in the world man, you're
where you are because you don'treally believe in God, because
God wants you to be there.
Yeah, oh, for those who don'tknow, there was a terrorist
attack in Garissa University.
You know we might be sayingthis, assuming everyone knows,
but there was some Garissaterrorist attack, garissa

(23:54):
University, where I think acouple of students, 142 students
lost their life and Japheth wassupposed to be in that court.
But what happened?
Like you chose not to go thereor choose another university,
how did it go?

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Well, once I got the calling letter and I showed it
to my mother, my mother saidyou're not going to Garissa.
Yeah, yeah because, you know,Garissa has always been unstable
in terms of the Al-Shabaab andstuff like that.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
So, so that's how I ended up being in.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
TUM.
So did you like go there andchange through job?

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Oh no, I did self-sponsored In TUM In TUM,
yeah.
So that's how you happened tobe in TUM.
That's how I happened to be inTUM.
Which course were you called todo in Garissa?
Business Management Jesus.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Christ and in TUM you applied for computer science.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Before I applied for computer science.
You know that waiting periodafter yeah, as a gap year.
I didn't really have a gap year.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
We used to have two gaps.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
During that period of time, when I left high school,
I wanted to do architecture, butthen I don't remember what
exactly happened.
But something happened.
Are you a good?

Speaker 1 (25:05):
artist in terms of drawing, or you used to think
you're good.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
You know also where do you draw, Because I did
technical drawing in high school.
Huh yeah, drawing and design.
We call it drawing and design.
So I did drawing and design forfour years, so I was fairly
okay.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
Wait a minute.
You know I've heard aboutAldina which subject I offered
them, because it's also privateright it's public, it's a
governance and they do designand drawing drawing and design.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah so drawing and design is not artistic
impression like drawing, it's atechnical drawing.
So like, for example, say, thismicrophone, the technical
drawings before it's produced.
So like, we'll do that, oh nice.
Which other subjects wereoffered there?
Like, for example, say, thismicrophone the technical
drawings before it's produced.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
So we'll do that.
Oh nice, which other?

Speaker 2 (25:49):
subjects were offered there.
Because I've never heard thatLiterature, swahili English,
just compulsory to do all thesciences, geography, religion.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
No French, no German.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
I know, I mean in German.
Ah no, I mean in Mombasa.
You want to do French?
English is already a problem.
French will be far-fetched.
Yeah, so I think that's as muchas I remember.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Were you examined on it through KCSE?
Yeah, ah, and you really passyeah, he did so that's why you
even consider now with the math,of course, technically drawing
that could be yeah, would be agood combination.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
So you applied for that at two more, no so when I
left high school I was going todo architecture like that's what
I said, selected.
Yeah, no, that's what I said Iwas going to do, like regardless
of whether it comes or not,because I found a means of doing
it.
But then when I was waiting Idon't remember I might have
watched a movie and I thought itwas really nice to be coding.

(26:56):
And then I searched theinternet.
Then I came across computerscience.
So that's what it said I wantedto do instead.
So by the time I'm going to TUM, I went there and asked to do
computer science.
But then they didn't havecomputer science.
They had mathematics andcomputer science.
So I said, okay, even better,that sounds interesting.

(27:18):
So I enrolled in that.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Was it an easy process.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
It was fairly easy, especially because of
self-sufficiency.
So you know I am bringing inmore money.
There wasn't a lot ofobjections, yeah yeah, because.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
So private university actually brought a big boost.
From self-sponsor until privateuniversities I earned a lot and
some of the colleges weretattered to be universities and
then they became a bit cheaperthere and all that and
self-sponsored is not as greatas it was but because also they

(27:53):
used that money to pay more.
You know, visiting lecturers incase maybe there are a couple
of specialized lecturersteaching some other university,
so it's very interesting.
So you joined first year.
Yeah, how was it?
Now you're meeting some fineguys, some guys from all over

(28:14):
the country, because, given thatin primary school you went to
Mombasa, high school, mombasa,and now here you're still in
Mombasa, yes, but now there areother guys from all over the
country Was it a new experiencefor you or it just you know?

Speaker 2 (28:29):
No, it wasn't.
Really.
It wasn't much of a big deal tome.
Yeah, Because even though I'velived in Mombasa, Mombasa is
cosmopolitan, so you haveeveryone from everywhere really,
so like having new people fromall over Kenya wasn't much
bigger of a deal.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
So we just got into class, yeah, started studying,
yeah, and I don't know if Tungteaches you everything you know
from high school in a few monthsFor chemistry and physics, yes,
yeah, and then now start seeingthings that actually you go
deeper into different sciences.
How was that?

(29:09):
Was it fascinating for you?
So?

Speaker 2 (29:14):
I wrote my first program in my first year.
I wrote my first C program inmy first year.
And I became so obsessed withprogramming that I don't
remember most of what happenedin campus.
I just remember Every timeyou're not in class you're
writing code.
Yeah, I used to write code onthe ferry Because I had an
Android phone and then Idownloaded a C compiler with the

(29:40):
Android phone.
So all my time in the ferrywe're still using the ferry.
The ferry takes about 30minutes using the ferry.
Yeah, the ferry takes about 30minutes going and coming.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
So he is so obsessed with the thing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
What was so?

Speaker 2 (29:52):
interesting about the code.
I don't know.
Like I said, it's just anatural inclination.
Yeah, I just was so fascinatedby it, I just couldn't stop
myself from doing it.
It was more of like apossession, more than an
obsession, I would say.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
You never encountered some bugs that discouraged you.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
The bugs were even more interesting.
Oh, really, like, yeah, like,why is this happening?
So like.
So you have something toresearch, yeah, yeah so I did
that my first year, then mysecond year I got my first
laptop.
So oh, the first year youdidn't have a laptop and I was
programming on the phone thereand then, of course, I was

(30:34):
showing off to everyone who waswho cared to listen, like even
the guys with the laptops werelike what this guy has.
He's so amazing I remembershowing off to a friend called
Mahmood my for loop, and thatway I was calculating 1 plus 1
with C.
So it was all very fascinating.
So in my second year I got myfirst laptop and then I decided

(30:58):
I want to do Android.
So that long holiday I spentthat long holiday learning Java
and Android.
Nice yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
And which year was this?
This is my second year.
No, no, like which year?

Speaker 2 (31:12):
So I joined in 2013.
Could be 2014.
Yeah, because usually I jointhe end of 2013.
So semesters are September.
A year runs from September toApril, april.
Yeah, so it should be 2014,2015, 2015, uh, march, uh mean
the long holiday for aprilthereabouts.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because the reason why I'm
asking is because you saidandroid and the last time it was
, I think, two or three yearswhen I tried android before you
joined university and it wassuper buggy for my last year.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, like the emulator then was unusable, the
Android emulator was unusable atthat point.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah, and I checked it a few months ago.
It's really like what is thereis really amazing.
It is yeah, yeah, you can know,because this is what happened
nationally.
Maybe I should tell you whathappened.
So we went for this hackathon,which was 48 hours straight,
hosted by Garage48, which is nowNaibobi Garage and MPH48.
So MPH was an investmentvehicle for Garage48, which was

(32:14):
a hub.
And in this 48 hour I decidedokay, let me install Android so
that I can set up some Androidapp.
And we're working like a teamof five Every time.
I don't know.
I remember it was huge, likefive GB or something.
So when the internet dropped, Ihad to start from zero.
There was no way I could startfrom where it dropped.

(32:35):
So I tried that until 3am.
I said, okay, man, it's notworth it.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's not worth it.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
That's why I was like man I had to help, said, okay,
man, it's not worth it, it's notworth it.
That's why I was like man, Itwirl with this.
And then, when I checked it uma few, a few months ago, it was
really easy, like you could.
It's well packet and, unlessyou need plugins and extras, you
can actually download that asyou build.
Yeah, which makes itinteresting.
Yeah, so for you, I'm sure youdidn't get a Mac or a laptop

(33:05):
with 8GB RAM by then.
No, was that a challenge foryou and how did you handle that?

Speaker 2 (33:14):
The only problem I remember was the internet.
The internet was stillexpensive.
Yeah, very expensive, yeah veryexpensive.
So I don't remember stressingabout the performance of the
Android Studio on my device, butI remember the emulator being
unusable.
It was really slow.
I just remember always plugginga phone in to test your AI

(33:41):
instead of using the emulator.
So yeah, I remember saving halfmoney to afford the internet,
because it was like 60 gb for athousand shillings by airtail.
Wait, was it a thousand or fourthousand?
Could be four thousand.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Four thousand for six gb are the safari com
discontinued the unlimitedinternet by then um, I don't
remember, I was not usingSafaricom, yeah.
Now, then we're talking aboutthis.
Has Airtel always been good inMombasa as opposed to Safaricom?
Why Airtel specifically?

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Because my mother is Airtel.
Yeah, I remember Orange beingpretty good because Orange had
an unlimited uh package, butthen they introduced the fair
usage policy which carved atsome point.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
yeah, so that was a really stressful uh, made life
very hard for me because, uh, Iused to live on that internet
yeah, no, I mean, when I camehere for the workshops and
accolades, I used to have aarrangement on them and it
really saved the day becauseotherwise you don't depend on
the provided wireless becausethings might overrun and spend

(34:54):
time.
So for you just internet wasthe issue.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
I remember it being really expensive.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Were you able to save 4,000 for 6GB Consistently.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Well, thankfully, yeah, thankfully, yeah.
How are?

Speaker 1 (35:13):
you.
Where did you get this money tosave?

Speaker 2 (35:17):
I was doing contracting for side projects
for people who had projects atschool.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Oh, they're the guy to go to, yeah, even the four
years.
Now I realize this dude who Ijust joined in the first year,
or second, second year, and hecan do my projects, you know,
and then I can finalize on it ormaybe do the whole of it, and
then all I need is to present ohnice, how much did you charge
for one project?

Speaker 2 (35:44):
um, I don't remember exactly, but well, I think the
one that is very clear to me wasthere's this guy who wanted to,
was asked to build a calculatorof sorts, and then I did for
him for like 6 Gs or 8 Gs.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
It's a lot of money, a lot of money in school, man,
because even there you're notgetting that liquid cash coming
to you unless you have help.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, that's one thing.
I never really used the help incampus.
I tried signing up and then itwas too stressful, so I said
well, with this help form, thatwas a good decision because you
paid ex.
I tried signing up and then itwas too stressful, so I said
well with this help form.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
So, yeah, that was a good decision Because you paid
exorbitantly after you finished.
Yeah, yeah, so that's how youwere able to get the internet
and start building now mobilesolutions, yeah, specifically
with Android and Java.
Yeah, and I know Java sometimescan throw a lot of errors.
Yeah, careful, how do sometimescan throw a lot of errors if

(36:42):
you're not careful.
How do you manage to now say youknow what I've been building C,
now it's Java, now it's Android, and then combine the two,
because now C it gives youperspective of how things are
compiled.
Yeah, on the back end.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Actually, when I did C, I never understood how C
structs work, by the way, really, I understood most part of C
except structs and pointers.
At that time I couldn'tconceptualize how they work.
But I did Java because I wantedto do Android apps.

(37:20):
So that's like I just got aJava Java because I wanted to do
Android apps, okay.
So that's like I just got aJava book.
I didn't do video tutorials.
I got a book and said I'm goingto read it.
That is copy.
No, it was a soft copy, I said.
I said I'm going to do to readthis book cover to cover.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
It's the worst idea.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
It's very time-consuming.
It's a technical book also, sowhat?
And you know, the longer it is,the faster your motivation wins
as well.
Yeah, so I would recommend atutorial you get started, and
then a book for referencing.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
And it becomes gradual.
You build.
You're just referring to thistutorial to check if you're on
the right track.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, you're just referring to this tutorial to
check if you're on the righttrack.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, so that's how I do it now but do you think, if
you are a bit stable in yourcareer and you're doing
something, is it also good to goto a book and go deeper in it?
Yeah, it's not like you'rerequired to build a project with
it.
Is this you want to get deeperinsight on the language so, like
right now I'm building.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Is this what you want to get deeper insight on?
On the language yeah, so likeright now I'm building on my
like, for my own curiosity, I'mbuilding the TCP IP stock, which
is like how the internet Idon't understand what exactly
happens when data is sentthrough the internet.
So I'm building a TCP IP stockusing Golang and to do that I'm
going through the TCPIllustrator TCP IP stack using

(38:42):
Golang, and to do that I'm goingthrough the TCP Illustrator TCP
IP Illustrator book, which islike three volumes of work.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
So I still like and you were talking 400 and above
pages.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, it's Technical Because basically what they do
is they define the protocol Likethat is a book that does the
implementation as well the sameseries.
But now I read the protocol andthen I try to implement the
protocol and thencross-reference my
implementation with the one theyprovide in the book and see,
like what I got right and what Ididn't.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
And this is specifically for Golang.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
I'm doing it in Golang.
I've learned it in anotherlanguage.
Yeah, but I'm doing it in Golan.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
I've not done it in any other language, yeah, but
I'm doing it in Golan.
Interesting, it's veryfascinating man like you're
doing all these things.
And the last there was a timewe spoke, I think a couple of
years back in the building OS.
Oh, yeah, swahili.
Swahili version.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
So it was called the little OS.
I call it little OS, little OS.
I call it Lil OS, lil OS.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
No, by the way, you didn't have that name.
You just told me I'm buildingthis thing.
There are a couple of guysyou're building it with.
When version 1 is out, we'llsee how can we Get even guys.
It was open source right.
Or it's still there, butversion 1 never came out.
No, it never came out.
What happened, man?
How did life happen?

Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's because, when I was building it, I wanted to
understand how the system works.
And once I felt like, okay, Iunderstood how it works and well
, it's not going to be a seriousproduct, I decided my time is
better used somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Because I talked to a couple of community members who
are really and they'refascinated by it.
One of them is Ken Ather.
Actually, I roast him one ofthese fine days.
He's really really good.
He used to work at AfricaStocking Before when I joined
Africa Stocking.
Now he works with Moomoo Systemand some other company I'm not

(40:40):
sure, but Moomoo System is someother company I'm not sure, but
Moomoo System is one I'm sure.
And when I talked about this inthe community they were like
wow, this point has the rightdirection.
We would love to contribute.
That is really fascinated bysuch projects.
He's another guy who is a nerdman all the way.
So for you to learn something,you build something alongside it

(41:05):
.
It doesn't have to be complete,but just want to understand if
I'm building it, how does it run?
Does it cost you to buy extrahardware?

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Only a few Raspberry Pis.
Why Raspberry?
Well, they're a very cheap oneand I can get a lot of them.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
And I can test all these analogies with them.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, so, especially if I want to build a distributed
system, I have enough place totest all the algorithms.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, Because for us, by the way, we did for the
hardware we had to couple uplike three of us and then we'd
set up everything during the dayand then in the evening there's
only tests everywhere, so we'dshare a link somewhere and then
we'd test.
If things are, you canmanipulate that machine while

(41:55):
there.
So, yeah, that's a good conceptyou brought by in terms of
getting the Raspberry Pi.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So at what point did you decideto drop off university?

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, so what happened is one time I was in
class and I think the teacherwas taking us through Java.
By this time I've had like fourmonths of reading Java.
So as they say in Swahili, I'mgood, or in Mombasa they would
say I'm a killer, like I'vereally my Java's really good at
that time.
Yeah, so the teacher writes.
You know, in Kenya they writethe program by hand on the

(42:31):
whiteboard.
Yeah, and I told the teacher Ijust like sort of blurted it out
that okay, sir, that's notgoing to work because there was
a syntax error.
But then he ignored me.
You know, it's fine.
So when folks are running theprogram it doesn't run.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
It doesn't compile it doesn't compile, yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
So like at that point is when I knew I'm probably not
going to finish my studies thisis just you.
You are learning too slow thanyou can learn by yourself um,
well, it's like the feeling waslike a realization, more of like
uh, more like an unintentionaldecision, you know.

(43:19):
Like a realization, you sort ofyou don't really intend for the
decision, but sort of justrealize it at a deeper level,
like, okay, maybe this is notthe place.
So I didn't really act on thatrealization, like I didn't sort
of drop out immediately.
So when I was in my I think,second year as well or must have

(43:44):
been second year I saw AhmedMawi, yeah, and then I reached
out to Ahmed Mawi where did yousee him?
He came to tomb talk aboutSwahili box.
I think Swahili box, swahilibox, it was a concept.
Swahili box was a concept atthat time.
Yeah, so I emailed Ahmed,actually sent him a Skype

(44:05):
message when his ultimateproblem was email.
Then it was Skype.
Yeah, it's a funny storybecause Ahmed never replied to
my Skype message.
After this day.
Maybe I'd stalk using Skype.
But shout out to one and we'regood friends, him and Mari, yeah
, we're very good friends.
So he talks about Swahili Booksand I think, yeah, this is a

(44:28):
really good idea.
So I volunteered for SwahiliBooks for like close to two
years.
So after that, well, he ignoredmy Skype message.
Then he said okay, this iswhere we are so you went there
physically, I went there.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
That's how you met him and you're like I want to
volunteer.
I love the idea.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, I said okay, I'll be a volunteer yeah, how
can?
I help.
Yeah, and I was just.
I was just saying to be asuseful as I can.
Yeah, like anything andanything like, uh, I will do
yeah, and what is this?
Anything in any way you guysare here.
You painted the whole, wescrubbed the walls, the wall,
like.
That is why, like, whateverhappened to soil box is really
painful to me.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Uh, uh, personally, yeah I paint, I scrubbed, no,
let's.
Let's put it the way it is.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
The current soil reports the space that soil
report is in yes, the way it is,the current Soiliport.
The space that Soiliport is inyes, the building that is, it
was in Tatters.
Yeah, it was like it was anabandoned building in essence.
So when we went there, we hadto renovate it and to do that
like we actually scrapped thewalls by handsome Ahmed, myself,

(45:38):
ali, other folks Daniel Oteyanowas there as well uh, a lot of
folks, yeah.
So when we were kicked out ofthis place, it was very, very
painful, yeah feel likesomething is stolen from you
there's a sentimental value toit and really what happened?

Speaker 1 (45:54):
what do you like guys live?

Speaker 2 (45:56):
or so.
By that time I'd already leftfor andela when the situation
happened, so like I don't have alot of context exactly, but I
know it is a very dicey issue,so that he can take over All
sorts.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
But yeah, very soon we're going to speak about this.
You'll hear the Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
You'll have to bring in Amir to speak about it.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
And then also bring the other side to speak about it
so that we get the context.
And and then also bring theother side to speak about it so
that we get the context andmaybe if people can drink tea,
which I know is next toimpossible.
But this Swahili box situation,Swahili pot situation, for me,

(46:42):
the reason I pay attention to itis because I believe it's an
ecosystem.
When there's so much going onthat it's not fair to the
participating party, it derailsa lot of things that actually
could grow that ecosystem.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, like every successful driver you know from
Mombasa has gone through Swahilibooks, you see.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Now imagine if it was really there was no that
chaotic takeover andmisunderstanding and confusion
and even hate, to say the least.
How much could this?

Speaker 2 (47:11):
it's been a huge destruction.
Actually much to the service ofthe tech community in Mombasa.
But to see guys like DanielOtieno, wayne, I think of the
GDG, the GDG folks.
They're doing a good job tryingto bring the community out.
Props to them.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
And I think I would love to see guys come back
together and try to build, Not amust.
You know whoever is willing andcome with the lessons that have
been learned, Because thisecosystem actually will be built
to a proper.
You know whoever is willing andcome with the lessons that have
been learned?
Yeah, Because this ecosystemactually will be built to a
proper, proper place, becausethere's so many people who are
interested in actually helpingbut now they can't because of

(47:51):
the, the, the bad blood.
I would say yeah, yeah, so thishappens.
And do you build software thereor just so what was that?

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Swahili books Ahmed gave me my first real job.
Well-paying job you mean Verydifficult, not really paying by
any means, just enough for me toafford my internet and
remaining with a few shillingsto get money.
But he subcontracted me to workon an app, on an Android app.

(48:27):
So that was my first realAndroid job.
This is not now like schoolprojects like this.
There's consequences.
There's consequences.
Now it doesn't work, did that?

Speaker 1 (48:38):
scare you.
No, I was actually very excited.
I was very excited, or?
Very excited and this is gonnabe used in the real world and I
was very impressed, fortunately.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, I remember one message he sent me telling me
I'm a rock star, so that reallyboosted my confidence and that's
a quite a validation for me.
Yeah, you know, yeah, I mean Irespected, I mean I respect Adam
, I looked up to him yeah.
I still look up to him.
Yeah, so then at Feli Buki Ialso met Ali, a very nice guy.
I also met Mtabe, tanzania.

(49:10):
Mtabe is yeah he's another guy.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
I've been trying to no.
No, he's another guy.
I've gone to Tanzania twiceyeah man, if you listen to this,
mtabe but Tanzania twice.
Yeah, man, if you listen tothis, but the second time
actually, he got into anaccident and, yeah, it was
unavoidable.
So I totally understand, butwe're going to get all these
guys into this because thischief used to travel from Arusha
.
Yeah, can't spend maybe a weekhere trying to help guys
understand Ruby?

Speaker 2 (49:34):
So you see how, like TechT, tech Twitter sees cars
now and they all want to be devs, as we saw, ntabi and all the
devs, but the dude is good.
You know, what Ntabi used to dois, after a session that Soylee
works now like probably noteating the whole day, ntabi
takes us to a restaurant andbuys for us food.
A good restaurant, a goodrestaurant.
You see, like this is the life.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Do you know why we buy food for okay, for any event
.
I'm involved in really goodfood and good experience, even
take guys out for a beer or twoafterwards.
It's the same thing.
Because, you see, sometimeswhen you're doing something like
programming, it's hard, it'snot an easy one, especially when
you're learning.
It's because I try to paintthis picture that if I actually

(50:17):
put in the work it's actuallyeven much better than that.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah.
So until then we were justdoing programming out of passion
, but we realized it would besuccessful, very successful,
through Mtabio, like he showedus the life, yeah, so it was a
big inspiration.
It was also the guy who taughtme how to use Vim.
Oh nice, do you still use Vim?
Yeah, I still use Vim.
Oh nice, do you still use Vim?

(50:42):
Yeah, I still use Vim.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Now I know two guys in Mombasa who use Vim.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Well, but I say it's not like you should use whatever
you find helpful To me.
I use it because it helps mestay in flow, because I get
distracted easily by all thewidgets in other editors, so I
use it because by all thewidgets in other editors.
So I use it because itdefinitely stays in flow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
You know, brian Mugueru.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Brian was my classmate in Congress.
Yeah, he also uses Vim.
I hope I'm the one who inspiredhim.
I'm killing him, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
And so you build this Android app.
You submit you're a Android app.
You submit You're a rock star.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Then what?
Yeah.
So then Andela came.
At that point Andela wasdaunting.
I applied to Andela and then Iwas with a friend called
Harrison Kamau.
You may know him, I knowHarrison.
He's a member of the community.
So Harrison and I metActuallyison and I know each

(51:45):
other very well.
Okay, yeah, we met at SwahiliBox.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, I remember him telling me he's
from Mombasa and he has nevereven come for the Ruby workshop
that I did some time back and Iwas like how come there's one
guy who can be in the room andyou not know?
So when he told me that, I waslike you must be in the room
because you rememberedeverything, uh, so you guys were

(52:08):
classmates, or so?

Speaker 2 (52:11):
No, we met at Sailor Books.
Okay, yes, so that's whenAndela came.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Uh, we prepared together Mm together, and then
the submissions and theinterviews.
Yes, and then we were oncecalled for the Andela interviews
, now in Nairobi.
Yeah, that was my first time inNairobi.
We've never been in Nairobi inlife, so when I left campus, I

(52:38):
was also preparing for the exams.
That is third year.
Second year, fourth year, Thirdyear second year.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
For the cuts, I think .

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
So I knew that it's not coming back.
It's not coming back.
I knew that I have to make itwork Like I have to.
It's not coming back.
Do your mom know about this?
Yeah, but we see also,salesforce is very expensive.
Ah, your mom know about this,yeah, but we see also, sas
fonside is very expensive.
Ah, so so it was a less expensefor her.

(53:07):
Yeah, so, and then I'd donesome work for armand, so armand
paid me, and then I was able toput fair together and uh, um,
let's go to nairobi.
Um, so, harrison and I, thatwas my first time in nairobi.
I remember it being so cold.
Yeah, like my nose was bleeding.

(53:29):
Oh, was that serious.
It was very cold at that time.
Wow, nairobi is warmer thesedays?

Speaker 1 (53:35):
no, maybe you have been used to it.
Yeah, and we also have gone tothe colder places.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yeah, nairobi is nothing yeah, so that was my
first time in Nairobi.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
But then Nadella used to get people hostels right.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
No, that was.
After you get in, you get ahostel.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Did they assign you or just look for a house?

Speaker 2 (53:52):
No.
After you get in, after youpass the interview.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
So you went for the interview.
I went for the interview, notthat you went and qualified,
okay, that was later that came,that came later.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
So I say that, um, a friend's friend, harrison's
friends, okay, uh, house, wecall you.
He's called george.
Uh, so george gave us his place.
Uh, we crashed there for twoweeks because and then the
interviews are not one day, so,and then at the interview,
that's where I met Nanda andNdiga.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
They were the one who were interviewing.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, nanda and Ndiga knew Ahmed, so the interview
was a bit easy.
If I knew, I'd passed throughAhmed then they know you were an
agent.
Yeah, they had worked withAhmed.
So thanks to that relationship,the interview like it was not a
hard interview To get now tothe is like the first first to

(54:45):
first interview and then afterthat comes the two-week uh
period.
Yeah, did they do lit code?
and stuff no no, no, we werejust asking questions like, uh,
basic questions.
Yeah, I remember you're givenlike a piece of paper and then
there was a program.
Then you asked to do what willthis program, what foot or what,
find a bug in this, somethingalong those lines there, and
then that happened.
Then we're called.

(55:06):
Both harrison and I were callednow for the two-week uh boot
camp.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Yes, it was called a boot camp for the two-week boot
camp is it, was it?
Was it that's kilimani jodo orsomething?

Speaker 2 (55:19):
dojo, dojo, yeah, I keep, I keep twister, exactly,
so those tweaks are veryfascinating.
Uh, because all through myproject worked all through,
except on demo day.
Oh really, yeah, my projectdemo goes on on your side, not
on my side.
Yeah, but thankfully theyusually ask you to demo before,

(55:42):
like the facilitators ask you todemo to them before you demo to
the whole, because you need todemo to the whole company during
demo day.
Yeah, so I demo to Nanda and itworked.
So Nanda had to say networking.
So when it didn't work, youknow, actually I couldn't log in
, so I couldn't demo anything.
So it, when it didn't work, youknow, actually I couldn't log
in, so I couldn't demo anything,so it looked like, it's not

(56:04):
your project.
Uh, well, no one saw thefeatures, so I just said, like
if this had worked, if the loginhad worked, then this is what
would have happened.
Okay, but it had.
But it had worked.
Uh, the previous day.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Uh, do you forget your email, your password?
What happened?

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Or the login module was broken.
I suspect it was a cachingissue, because after I passed my
interviews, after I got in, Inever bothered to investigate
again.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Oh really, and you never got to present this to the
whole company.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
No, no, I didn't demo it, but I demoed it to Nanda
the day before the big demo, soNanda had seen it working.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Oh, okay, so it was like this actually worked.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Yeah, like you know, and also like all through the
tweak period, you have to sortof give status updates about
where you are on the project.
So that was a very fun time.
It was very stressful as well,and so why was this stressful?
Because you had such a shortperiod of time to do a lot of

(57:04):
things, ah, okay okay.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yeah, I thought it was because you're scared.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
If I don't qualify, I'm going back to ah, no, like I
, I, I knew I was, there was nogoing back.
There's no going back.
Yeah, either getting or getting.
Only had two options.
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
So you qualify.
So there was just one extrainterview and then that was it,
the two week project Once youpass that.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
In my court only four guys Got in out of 15.
It was very competitive as well.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
And Harrison Was one of them.
Harrison was in the boot campas well.
Yeah, and Harrison was one ofthem.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Harrison was in the boot camp as well, but he didn't
make it.
Then he didn't join Andela.
So he joined Andela much later.
Yeah, much later, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
So when you joined, how did you get a project to
work on?
Did you get assigned acompany's project?
How did it all work?

Speaker 2 (58:00):
So, Andela, we call it the Andela Fellowship.
It was a fellowship, to behonest.
First, like I said, Andela wasvery life-changing.
I actually considered wearingan Andela t-shirt.
I said I need to get overmyself, so you still have Andela

(58:22):
t-shirts.
I do.
Now that you talked about it, Istill have the original Andela
t-shirt and also my bands, myD-level bands.
I'll talk about them.
So Andela was a fellowship.
It was a four-year program.
So the first six months you gettrained on a particular
technology stock, yeah, and thenyou sort of consult for

(58:44):
companies, um, across the world.
So I joined andela, I gotaccommodation to andela, uh, and
then I lived in.
I lived in we used to joke.
I used to live in kilimania forsix years yeah, when Kilimani
was Kilimani.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Nowadays Kilimani is coming, and something else.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
Unfortunately.
So I did my training in Reactand not JS, yeah, I don't know.
So I did that for six monthsand then I sort of graduated,
but that was now d0.
So after d0 you go to d1 sothey were measured by d.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
What did this stand for?

Speaker 2 (59:29):
this distance for, like the, the sort of seniority,
okay, you start at d0 and thenthe highest level was d4.
So you progressed, uh, throughthe levels based on feedback
from the partner you're workingwith, and then you also had to
take an assessment before youwent to the next level.
So I joined as id zero, or westarted as id zero and then when

(59:52):
you graduate the training, youbecome okay.
So that was when you started apartner work does that mean,
also what you're paid improves?
Oh, yeah, of course, if anything, that's the only level, that's
the only measurement thatmatters.
So yeah, I started working witha company called Fast Access in

(01:00:12):
New York.
That was my first time going toStates.
Oh, I see, for all the projects, for all the companies that
we're working with, I think itwas in the contract that you do
a site visit.
Okay, I see, for all theprojects, for all the companies
that we're working with, I thinkit was in the contract that you
do a site visit at least oncein a year.
Okay, so I worked with FirstAccess for a year, mm-hmm.
And then I worked for what didyou do with?

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
First Access.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
So First, access was a credit scoring company that
provided credit scoring for Wasit?
Cooperatives, noatives, really,a lot of these things like
circles?
Yeah, yeah, in new york,they're circles.
No, no, this is, they'reserving for the african market.
But the company, okay, how doesthat work?
Yes, so I was there for a year.

(01:00:58):
We built the platform fromscratch, essentially the backend
, mobile web, the whole shebang.
How many engineers were you onthat project?
We started as three, and all ofthem from Mandela, all of us
from Mandela, yeah, and then twomore joined, yeah, and then I
left after a year.
Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
You left that project .

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
Yeah, I left that assignment sort of when I was
assigned another and how?

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
how do you live?
Do you complete your module andsay okay, I need another module
?
How did this?

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
so like after a year, uh, depending on like the
partner.
So sometimes the partner, youknow they run into financial
stress, uh, or sometimes youmight have a better fit project
based on your career aspirationas well.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Or sometimes, and there's a review process where
you say, okay, this wasexperience.
Yeah, this is the report.
Yeah, but also this is what I'minterested in.
So, based on that, is it themanager or the guys who are
getting the projects?
Yeah, they will assign a newproject to us.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
So that happened and then I off-boarded for success
and then I think I stayed.
I worked on Nandela internalproducts for some time.
I did Android again.
I got to do Android again onNandela internal products and
then after that I joined anotherpartner based in Canada.

(01:02:22):
It was called Finhaven.
They did crypto stuff.
I don't exactly remember whatthat was about and then.
So after that, microsofthappened or still through Andela
?

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
no, like a migration.
Yeah, Also before evenMicrosoft happened.
I hear there are a couple ofguys who are working for GitHub
and Microsoft projects throughOneDollar.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
No, I didn't hear about that Microsoft, but I know
GitHub, github yeah, butMicrosoft I didn't hear.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Yeah, yeah, because I understand that's how they
understood that the ecosystem isready for engineering office.
Yeah, yeah, and now that theywon't get up, maybe I don't know
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you guys you like, butbefore, when you migrated, there
was some issues, dandela, Idon't know.

(01:03:18):
They wanted to close or to cutit out.
Well, that's after I'd left ahI left in 2018, at least 2018
and that means there was a hugemigration.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
It was just you leaving me so at that time what
had happened is andela hadstarted hiring aggressively.
Okay, and you know, like atandela, just like for
brotherhood, like everyone kneweveryone and like those who
someone lives, then it more likeyou guys were so close, you
guys used to hang out yeah,quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
There's a part you just uh, we just didn't talk
about.
Yeah, uh, where I visited uhandela, right and I also.
We left part that way.
I came for a couple ofworkshops here just before we
joined Mandela.
How was that experience for you?
Let's start with the workshopshere in Mombasa through Swahili
Box and other partners.
How was that for you?

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Very useful Because you see what workshops do, is
they sort of give you anotherperspective about things.
Example if I've only been using, say, I don't know asana, yeah,
and I get to learn about jira,yeah, I get to see, I get to
sort of compare the two.
Yeah, in a normal day to day,unless something extraordinary

(01:04:32):
happens like changing roles orchanging jobs, I won't use jira,
right, yeah, so there was that.
And there was also the gettingthe insight from other folks,
because people are very smartpeople in Kenya.
So getting that insight so I'vealways appreciated that Not
getting not living in my headtoo much, like getting to hear

(01:04:52):
what other people are sayingyeah, yeah, and then, dandela,
come there and do what you said.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
I'm still doing it.
I went through this.
It's still impact.
So I do impact innovation.
Yeah, yeah, I rememberpresenting that keynote at
Africa's Talking Summit.
But you know, twit for devs.
It's the same keynote I didwith you guys and I remember
vividly.
Same keynote I did with youguys and I remember vividly.
Maybe I'll share the pictureswith the editor to show that it

(01:05:25):
was an interactive session whereguys used to like, even beyond
code, how do you really buildfor impact?
Yes, because that's whatmatters, especially in Africa
like building a solution thatcould scale number one, number
two, that could touch onindividuals who are using a
solution, and scale number one,number two that could touch on
individuals who are using asolution.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
And you guys happen to collaborate and I don't know
you remember that experienceyeah, I think the most vivid
part is I remember getting ashrug, oh, and then there wasn't
any male shirts remaining, so Ihad to get a a blouse.
I had to get a blouse for mygirlfriend.
Then now, if uh, so yeah oh,then the shoulder girlfriend.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Nice, but I'm not talking about that.
It looks like you forgot thisone, this one.
Even nanda was there.
There was another session I didseparately, besides the
atlassian one.
Yeah, I might have forgotten.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Did you do it on the cafeteria?

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
no, there was a table just aligned.
I think it's the cafeteria thenthere was a tv, so we used to
present it's a cafeteria.
And then there was a TV, so weused to present.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
That might have been the boot camp rooms.
The boot camp rooms those arethe rooms where we used to do
boot camps.
If there was a TV, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
But it was outside.
It was outside, outside, withthe pictures and everything.
If it's outside, it's acafeteria yeah, you tell me
which is it but it was just.
Yeah.
We had this chat and I said, oh, if we present this to these
guys, I think there's so muchthey will gain.
For me, it was because I alsowanted to start Impact Hub
Nairobi and all these inductionmeetings that we went to and I

(01:06:52):
was fascinated by them, by thefact that there are people who
don't dispute for money.
Good for money.
Yeah, they build socialbusinesses.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
It's not that they don't make money, but
specifically, they are moregeared to like yeah, I think the
only person, the only otherperson that I know is really who
really cares about impact,social impact.
Yeah, I'm with my, yeah, I'mwith my really cares about
social impact.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Yeah yeah, and it's important actually, if you
understand them, because for me,I used to know that I might.
I want to change the way thingsare, but I wasn't so clear.
How do you do it?
Until now, that process ofstarting impact, I'm never
worked, but the lessons I gotthere are game changer.
And then I prepared thesekeynotes and then presented to

(01:07:36):
you guys.
Uh, hannah, masila was there,or I think you were there, and a
couple of other guys.
Nanda was there.
When I look at the picture, yousee who was there.
I'll share the picture with youand maybe probably the editor
to share that.
So, and one thing also I notedabout Andela that you were

(01:07:58):
saying it was, you know, a guy.
It was well-needed.
You guys used to have pool.
You used to have us PS, maybetwo or I don't know, ps, what
you used to play.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I was.
When I visited you guys,because I went there, I was at
two events there and Iinteracted with guys.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
One of the things that I noted is that when do you
guys get time to work whenwe're not playing pool?
Because guys, there are guyswho play pool throughout.
They're like, okay, maybethey're waiting for the evening.
Yeah, most people used to workwith companies in the US, so
usually it's quite a bit of timedifference there, so during the
day folks will just be playingthe pool and then people start
working from five.
Yeah, uh, most will work frommidday.

(01:08:41):
That's why, like it's like alot of people around and it's
from five until two am yes, then.
Uh, sometimes some folks used tolive at andela, like there used
to be accommodation, oh okay,but some folks used to be, uh,
they, there was transport, likewe robbed you at home so there
was no pressure.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
And then Andela opened a campus along Thika Road
, but then had you left, or Iwas still there, but before yeah
.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Well, yeah, then we go to Thika Road.
Yeah, it was big news.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
man, like I wanted to visit that campus.
It was really good.
Did that campus exist inreality?
Because everything thathappened afterwards well I don't
really know.
As you know it was, at leastwas it because the one that
reached me I never got topresent is that these guys have
bought a couple of acres behindtrm.
Yeah, you want to build a wholecampus.

(01:09:33):
They did build.
Yeah, they did they built.
Okay, yeah, so, before you weresaying something, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
So I was going to say I was on the part where the
disintegration of theclosed-knit society, or penalty
rather.
So what happened is Zandelastarted hiring rather rapidly
and very huge numbers.
It was of growth.
You know the startup drug.
All startups get high on growth.
So courts became very large,from four people courts to 20

(01:10:04):
people courts, I think, fromcourts every now and then to
courts every week.
So that closeness was no longerthere.
You could see some random guysLike you didn't feel like there
was nothing special about Andelaanymore.
So what they say is that peopleis what is important.

(01:10:28):
So people had opportunities butwould stay because of what was
out there.
And also people didn't mindAndela taking a cut from their
salaries Because what we know isthis is necessary for the next
court, for the next court to beable to join Andela.
This needs to be done.
So guys were, they were gladlylet Andela say, like, take

(01:10:52):
whatever percentage they weretaking from the salary.
No one had qualms with it.
But at some point the visionchanged and the mission changed.
It became about growth andpeople started feeling
short-changed.
But you see, the missioninitially I don't remember the

(01:11:13):
words, but it made you feel likeYou're part of something bigger
.
And you're okay sacrificingsomething for the next group
yeah, bigger.
And then you're okaysacrificing something for the
next group, yeah, but when themission changed, um, it made you
feel, uh, disillusioned and howdid it change?

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
what did it change to ?

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
I don't.
I don't remember the wordings,like it's been a while was it
raising funds?

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
was it?

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
no, it became more business oriented than most
people oriented, yeahipolloneoriented, yeah, okay, that's the
feeling that I remember getting, yeah, so, so there was very
little reason to stay at Andela,yeah, although I must say like
Andela's changed the lives of alot of people.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
And even the ecosystem, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
The ecosystem is where it is.
To me, it's because of swahilibooks and andela.
Yeah, yeah, I'll say so.
Uh, so one day, after I've donemy work, uh, folks from
microsoft come to the office,say, oh yeah, we have a dinner
traditional they come to andelaoffice and they, they were guys
yeah, they wanted to like seewhat andela is doing.

(01:12:17):
They're sort of like scouting.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
So did everyone get called for a meeting.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
No see, they were just walking through and
inviting people for the dinner.
So I went to the dinner becauseI had nothing else to do Free
food and drinks.
Lately they know that it wasactually a scouting event.
It was not just a dinner, theywere scouting for devs.
Then there is this guy calledRanda Randa Bosman.

(01:12:47):
When I'm like a few glassesdown like I'm already feeling a
bit tipsy, he asked us like asort of a simple algorithm
question and then it turns outout of all those people because
I know there those are standingtable for networking events and
there was only my program wasworking, because he asked us to

(01:13:08):
write you have your laptop in anapkin, oh okay, so only mine
was working.
So that's how I got my firstinterview at Microsoft.

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
And the rest is history, as they say.
So were you like the initialengineers who joined the
Microsoft developer program?

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
I joined Microsoft ADC before ADC started, so that
makes me the first engineer atMicrosoft ADC Africa by accident
.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Oh, oh nice, that's amazing.
Uh oh, I didn't know that.
Uh well, you're very privilegedto have this conversation.
Thank you so much, man.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, no, and it shows.
Uh, no, seriously, uh, it'svery important because I I'm a
guy who knows that in a coupleof years, apple engineering will
be in Africa and I'm a guy whobelieves that maybe in a couple

(01:14:05):
of decades, africa will beshipping products, serious
products, out there.
Yeah, so that's how we are.
But also, even before theseguys came, I was the only guy
who was building communities,develop a community consistently
.
I'm still doing so, not becauseI could not do something else,

(01:14:28):
but it's because I see that ifan opportunity comes and you're
not ready, then it's a waste ofdata.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Well, there is a saying that I like, that is like
victory loves preparationAbsolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
Yeah, so that's great .
Well, there is a saying that Ilike.
That is like victory lovespreparation.
Absolutely, yeah, so, so, sothat's, that's great.
So you're doing a microsoft andstill you're in andela or you
just quit and oh yes, I Iresigned from andela that
evening or after you qualified?
How many interviews did you dowith microsoft?

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
uh, so I did, I remember it, it being four
rounds.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Yeah, in a span of.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Two days.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Two days.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
Yeah, because Microsoft is on Redmond so I had
to do them like at midnight.
Oh, okay, okay, if you'reseeing under the internet,
unfortunately, Under theinternet was good.
It was the best yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
So you used to stay in the office until late.
Yeah, doing these interviews.
Yeah so you used to stay in theoffice until late.
Yeah, doing these interviews?

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Yeah, but everyone else thinks you're working.
I know that was past my workinghours.

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
But you know, whoever leaves you there, these guys
are very serious.
Burning the midnight oil, butyou are exiting.
So how did the guys take thatnews?
They're like, ah man, this isit.
So that looks like you gavethem one month notice.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Yes.
So Joshua Moniki, the countrydirector, is a very good friend
of mine.
So after I negotiated, did theinitial negotiation with
Microsoft, I actually took himto give him the contract to
reform because he's a lawyer byprofession.
Well, if you review, it.
Yeah, yeah.
So he has more exposure.
As african, we say is the hoteldoes can see oil seated, young

(01:16:08):
people can't see standing on ahill.
Um, yeah, yeah.
So I gave him the contract toreview it and yeah, he said,
yeah, you should go so for himit not, it didn't look.
The money was good.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
It was very good actually.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
More than what you guys are offered right now.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Well, I don't know what guys are offered.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
For you.
You were hired in Seattleoffice, right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
I was reporting to Seattle.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
That means the contract must have been yeah, it
was good.
Yeah, it was good.
Yeah, it was good, yeah, andyeah.
Now I will start asking somecontroversial questions.
So I hope you're ready.
I will answer those which I canand I will be politically
correct, because this is veryimportant for the ecosystem to
grow.
So the word is you know, afteryou know, guys came in set up

(01:16:59):
some offices here.
There is, you know, word goingaround that guys get
shortchanged and they're hiredbased on the economic status or
value of that country as opposedto what their counterpart are
paid doing the same job, or evenfor them, even if they're doing
it much better, they still getunderpaid.
That is true, it happens.
Yeah, it's still happening it?

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
That was true, it happens yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
It's still happening.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Yeah, it's happening.
Yeah, for sure.
Like you need to, I negotiatequite aggressive, yeah.
So I think learning tonegotiate is really important,
because it's the onlyopportunity to have.
All your subsequent salariesdepend on your first salary.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
True, true.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
So negotiate as much as you can for your first salary
.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
Yeah, yeah.
So when you joined I'll askother questions as you go when
you joined Microsoft, what didyou get to work?
Which team did you join, giventhat Microsoft has a portfolio
of tools across the industry?

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
So when I joined Microsoft, I sort of stumbled
onto my second passion, and thatis building developer tools.
I've been building developertools since then, so that's for
the last six, seven years.

Speaker 1 (01:18:19):
I remember you telling me you built Python,
open source for yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
So that's why, when you see, the projects that I
work on are very not like webapps or stuff.
They're very tooling oriented.
So when I joined Microsoft, Ijoined a developer experience
team for the Microsoft Graph APIand the first thing, my first
responsibility, was sort ofmigrating what's called a Graph

(01:18:43):
Explorer from Angular to React.
That was my first sort of thingthat I did and by that time I'd
even like contributed to theReact developer tools.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
On the side or.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
Yeah, on the side, like while I was at Andela I did
React mostly at Andela.
Because I did react mostly atAndela, yeah, so I contributed
to the open source too byFacebook itself, and then so it
was, it was quite nice like,yeah, because I was able to sort
of sort of set the standard inthe team at that time.

(01:19:19):
Yeah, and I did that Then.
Now I moved to other projectsafter the migration from Angular
to React.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
So take me through this journey.
So at say, microsoft or anylegacy scaled solution and you
get to build something thatalready exists or migrates.
How do you undo, if somethingdoesn't work, the first version,
how is that process like?

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
So the trick is to build something that works first
and then improve on it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
So they have like testing tools that ensure that
by the time we're shipping these, it really works.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Oh, I see what you're asking for, like how do you
ensure that we're shippingcorrect software?
Yes.
Production Production right,yeah.
So at Microsoft there's a lotof dogfooding, where teams use
their product internally.
So then there is likedeployment.
So at Microsoft there's a lotof dogfooding, where teams use
the product internally.
So then there is likedeployment rings First to
internal users and to sort ofbeta users, for example a good

(01:20:30):
example is the Insider programfor VS Code or for Windows and
then now to the general public.
So there's a lot of checks andbalances.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
And the reason I'm asking is that I know Microsoft
for shipping broken things.
Which Microsoft that requirespatches afterwards?
Even today's Microsoft, howmany times do we, even before
you became a rock star, andstuff?
How many times do you requirepatches for things to work?
And even today there's some ofthe tools and I understand,

(01:21:06):
because they have a wide rangeof tools and keep it I agree,
like even for myself.

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
Uh, one thing I realized is that my
interpretation of ship first, orlike build something that works
and I tell you it has changedwas initially I thought it's
okay to have bugs, like as youship something, yeah, but that
is not, or rather, normally ourenterprise is not that way.
It's that okay.
You need to ship something thatworks at least stable enough no

(01:21:34):
, not stable enough.
something that works completelylike a small feature set, yeah,
right, yeah.
For example, say, perform aCRUD operation, you create, read
, update, delete operations.
You don't build the whole API,but then with bugs, with parts

(01:21:58):
missing, you build a singleendpoint, say one, two create,
and then make sure that it workscompletely, and then you ship
that.
And then you build the secondpiece and then you ship that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
So instead of building small incomplete parts,
yeah, you ship small completeparts.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
It does not make sense?

Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
No, it makes sense and actually there is a science
around that.
That's why I'm like all theseyears, microsoft and all the
talent they have.
But of course, I understand,you know, I never.
I mean even Google, Facebook,everyone ships shit record.
How come we don't see?
Okay, now we see that with theGoogle suit.
With the Google suit, you see,but with the Google itself, it's

(01:22:45):
really hard to capture what isbroken.
But now with the Google suit,there are a couple of things
that actually you can't reallydo and you feel like, okay,
there could be a better workthan that there.
So, but the future is you canship something that is really
perfectly working.

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
Yeah.
So the idea is to do honestwork, like for you as a software
engineer to put in the effortto try.
Bugs might slick, might leakthrough, but at least try.
Don't sort of like rush overthe work and then Bugs will be
obviously present in a softwarefield.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
Yeah, but also the point I'm looking at is that
even now there are more tools tohelp you see where things are
broken much faster as opposed tobefore, because before you
needed a good piece of two eyesthat could actually.

Speaker 2 (01:23:40):
Yeah, and also, like I'll say, discipline as well.
As a software engineer, youneed to be disciplined.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
So, chief, I'm also sure I'm still on that dev
migration.
You find this quite size ofcode, oh yeah, and you need to
migrate.

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
It was actually very interesting because that project
initially had been worked on bycontractors.
Oh okay, it was outsourced.
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:09):
Very messy.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
It was out of source.
Yeah, very messy Like it was,it felt like everything was
littered everywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:24:17):
Yeah, Spaghetti code.
Or these things are not working, really, yeah, spaghetti code.

Speaker 2 (01:24:23):
It made like you had to understand four modules
before you change one module.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
It was that must be crazy, so that's why they made a
decision to build it in-house.

Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
So actually that was the version 3 of the same
product actually.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
Internally or even by request.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
Of course, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
And still they felt like this is not it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
So the plan was to migrate it to Angular.
I don't know Well, it was onAngular 2, and I think I don't
remember which Angular versionwas out then.
Is it 7?
I don't know Like some reallynewer version of Angular.

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):
So, one, it was updated.
Two, the code was all over.
Three, I'm sure it was not asefficient as possible.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
Yes, and also now even upgrading it to the new
Angular version, because therewas a lot of syntax change
between the two Angular versions.
We might as well just do it inthe like what was familiar then
to most people.
React was picking up so itwould have been easier to hire
more people who know React, sowe decided to do a rewrite.

(01:25:32):
In React, a migration is mostlyessentially a rewrite,
essentially if you are changingprogramming frameworks or
languages.

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
You have to write everything.

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
You have to rewrite the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
And also, if it's not efficient, you have to factor
that in Were you alone or a teamof.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
So I was working with a guy called Charles.
Well, he was not the contractorresponsible for it before.
I think it was a source tosomewhere else, but then, when I
started working on it, Istarted working on it with a guy
called Charles.
Wait, no, I think I did most.

(01:26:13):
I did most of like, thefoundation work.
First, I worked on it for along time, yeah, and then
charles joined me later on as amicrosoft employee or he was a
contractor then, but now he's afull-time employee at microsoft
is he kenyan or yeah?
he's kenyan.
Okay, yeah.
So he joined me after the ADC.
Well, he became an NFT afterADC.
Okay, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
And that project went well, I'm sure, because even
that's not a project that youtold me you're working on.
How did you exit from thatproject to another in the
company?
Do you not need to maintain it?
Do you not need?

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
to.
I think folks were happy withthe work I did it was stable
enough they said, the reward forgood work is more work.

Speaker 1 (01:26:56):
So that's what happened yeah and that's true
most of the time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
Yes, so I moved on to the python sdk.
Customers were starting to askfor a python sdk.
Yeah, so I did that python sPython SDK for a long time, sort
of did all the groundwork andthe first few features.
So after that then I got askedto do now.
So I invited someone in thePython SDK who was coming

(01:27:25):
through ADC.
Yeah, now, ADC now had comeinto place, so our team had also
grown, now around 10 folks theteam.
So I worked on the Python SDKand then I moved to Microsoft
Graph CLI, the command lineinterface tool.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
That was also very fascinating.
That's one of the mostfascinating things I've worked
on.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
While at Microsoft.
While at Microsoft.
Yeah, why is it fascinating foryou?

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
Because of the extensibility model.
So you see, the problem withthe Microsoft Graph API is
thousands of runpoints.

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
Hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
Yeah, so if you were to ship a CLI?
First of all, you can't buildCLI commands.
You can't write a thousand CLIcommands.
Yeah, true.

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
Second, even if you can't write a thousand CLI
commands?

Speaker 2 (01:28:11):
Yeah, true.
Second, even if you were towrite a thousand CLI commands,
you can't ship a thousand CLIcommands because of the size.
Yeah, yeah.
So those are the technicalchallenges.

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
You have to figure it and there's a lot of math
involved.

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
There's a lot of software engineering involved.
So we had to find anextensibility model where the
CLI ships with, say, 100endpoints, yeah, and then users
could extend the CLI on demand,say, I want to get the user's
endpoint, for example, and thenthey will be able to sort of ask

(01:28:45):
the CLI to get those endpoints,to sort of extend itself with
those endpoints yeah.
So I found those endpoints.

Speaker 1 (01:28:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):
So I found that very interesting yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
Interesting.
So which stack have you builtit with?

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
That was in Python.
Actually, from that experience,if anyone tells me to build a
CLI in Python again, I'm tellinghim to get out of my face.
I've never built it thatdifficult.
Yeah, especially because youknow for that work you need to
ship the CLI with the Pythoninterpreter, because you know
the extensions were essentiallyPython modules and for the CLI

(01:29:22):
to load the modules you neededthe Python interpreter to load
the modules with.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
Yeah, another easy thing when you're shipping.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
Yeah, especially if you know thing when you're
shipping, yeah, especially ifyou know you have to ship for
Linux to create the Debianpackages.
Deb packages that was reallystressful.
Yeah, and also the Wix filesfor Windows installer the
Windows installer, like I wouldIntuition, that was my worst
Enemy.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
It was Very painful, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
Why does Windows never?

Speaker 1 (01:29:54):
Work for Devs.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
What do you mean?
Windows is the best.
They are Trying but you seeWith Windows.
You see, I'm telling it's theBest because Of Windows
Subsystem For Linux.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
Yeah, until Lately, but Even, but.
Even then it's still.
It's always something that willbreak, and then you'll spend
all your time there fixing it.
Well, maybe because I work atMicrosoft, I think Windows is
quite and you see for you, I'veseen the other side of this
right.
But when it comes to usersespecially I'm not talking about

(01:30:25):
general users General users areperfect.
You is perfect, you know, it'seasy to use.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
Let me ask you, let me put you on the spot what
problems specifically have youmet?

Speaker 1 (01:30:36):
Specifically, unless this changed, because it's been
over a decade.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
Your writing is of detailed information, my friend,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:44):
So I remember even trying to install Ruby, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
Ruby.
But that is not Windows' fault,that is Ruby's fault.

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:53):
That's not Windows' fault, because Ruby is like.
The developers made it thinkingabout Linux.
Yeah, so getting it to work onWindows was stressful.
Yeah, but that is Ruby's fault.

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
So you're saying there's a good, good job that is
being done on the Windows.

Speaker 2 (01:31:08):
Windows is quite impressive.
Actually, I enjoy the time Ispent on a Windows machine.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
I'll take your word for it.
Vs.

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
Code is actually quite good as well.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
But to see VS Code, you can use it anywhere.
It doesn't have to be Windows,but it's from Microsoft.
No, I'm not saying that let'sget the cat out of the bag.
I'm not saying all the toolsthat come from Microsoft are bad
.
I'm just saying your experienceas a dev on Windows machine.
It does not match the userexperience.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
I mean, 10 years ago that could have been correct,
but right now I think Thingshave changed.
Yeah, the times I've spent on aWindows machine, I've enjoyed
it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:50):
Yeah.
And yeah, and do you have to beon the latest version of
Windows for everything to befine?
No, even 2007 Windows machinewould serve me perfectly.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
Windows machine or the Windows OS.

Speaker 1 (01:32:06):
OS.

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
Yeah, it should work.

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
Yeah, but you know, You're making me to feel like I
should go and test and next timewe'll have this conversation.
Yeah, you should.

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
Definitely yeah.
Yeah, I think Microsoft rightnow have quite a good
understanding of developerexperience.
Okay, they have sort of Afteracquiring GitHub and also the
team, because Windows andMicrosoft, they have a whole
organization.
A whole organization that isequivalent to maybe 500 people's
startup.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:32:37):
Working on developer experience.
Yeah, so they have a reallygood understanding of developer
experience, wow.
So I think they have sort ofcracked the window.

Speaker 1 (01:32:47):
I'll go and test that Windows.
I don't have to be on thelatest OS.

Speaker 2 (01:32:54):
The software you use might need to be on the, because
software usually build for thelatest OS.
Even then, I'll test it justfor.
Or you want a Windows license?
Oh, you have some, I don't mind.
I think I might have a few frommy time at Microsoft, but I
don't remember where I kept them.

Speaker 1 (01:33:11):
Yeah, you can look for them and share.
Do you still use Windowsmachine?

Speaker 2 (01:33:16):
no, Right now, I mostly spend my time on a Mac.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
On a Mac, yeah that says a lot, anyway, out of
convenience.

Speaker 2 (01:33:25):
That says a lot.
It's because I'm on an iPhone,so I like to take my phone call
every now and then.

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):
Everything connects but nevertheless, you know, no
love lost, no love found.
It's just a matter of you know,just pure, independent of the
relation from my interactionwith Windows and DevWorks.
So you start now building theSDK, the Python SDK, and you say
it's the worst.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
The CLI which comes first.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
Python or.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
The Python SDK comes first and then the CLI comes
second, but it's still in Python.

Speaker 1 (01:34:03):
So what would you say ?
It could actually work well, ifit was built CLI is, I'll say,
good.

Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
And right now it's still on Python, I'll say go
straight away, it was good.

Speaker 1 (01:34:11):
Yeah, okay, and right now it's still on Python, right
, but it works.

Speaker 2 (01:34:16):
So what happened is after I left, I think before I
left, we ran into a verysignificant technical challenge,
and that was the CLI.
Naming were auto, because youcan't write a thousand CLI
commands.
You are also generating them,and the tool we used to
auto-generate was owned byanother team, so you have a lot

(01:34:38):
of influence over the directionof that tool.
So a strategic decision wasmade to build our own tool
called Kyoto, which actuallyGitHub users started using to
generate their own SDKs.
Now they used that to generatetheir NET SDK, I think Okay.

(01:34:59):
So because of that decision, wedecided to sort of abandon the
Python effort because it was abad user experience.
So the CLI exists now, but itis now in C Sharp, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
So the C Sharp is much better than even Python.

Speaker 2 (01:35:16):
Well, fun fact, I never wrote C Sharp at Microsoft
.
It would remind you a lot of C.
Well, not exactly, maybebecause I can't see clearly.
And so when that happened, wewere starting getting requests
for Go SDK, and because I'd beenplaying around with Go on my

(01:35:38):
own time, I moved to work on theGo SDK.
Yeah.
So now I initiated that effort,or became part of that effort
early on working on the Go SDK,yeah, so is that the last
product to work at Microsoft?
Yes, working on the GoSDK.

Speaker 1 (01:35:51):
So is that the last project you worked at Microsoft?
Yes, that is it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:57):
So not the last project actually.
So around that time is when Imoved to London While working
for the GoSDK.
While working on the GoSDK, Imoved to London.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
To be closer to the team.

Speaker 2 (01:36:10):
No, my wife got a job in London and then we relocated
as a family in London.

Speaker 1 (01:36:15):
Your wife also works for Microsoft, no Another
company.
So you tell your manager youknow the family is moving and
I'd love to be close to it, sothey find the office in London,
or how?
No, you have to apply.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
We don't just change teams.
It's like you have to apply.
It's easy, of course, whenyou're inside than when you're
outside, but you have to applyand go through the motions of an
interview.

Speaker 1 (01:36:41):
Okay, oh, you like yeah, you have to re-interview,
or or together.
Okay, yeah, so you join a wholenew team I join a whole new
team.

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
Uh, this team was in the Azure organization In Kenya.
I was in the Microsoft 365organization, okay, so I was in
that team for a few months maybetwo months and then I left
Microsoft, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
Oh nice, Only two months.

Speaker 2 (01:37:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
What went?

Speaker 2 (01:37:14):
It could be four months, but it's not a long-term
recession.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
What went well.
So, because that's veryimportant for guys who migrate
and stuff.
Well, there could be some fewlessons that we learned.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
So migration is one of the most difficult things
I've done.
Actually it was very stressfulmigrating, especially by that
time my daughter was sevenmonths old, so doing that with a
young child was.

Speaker 1 (01:37:42):
It was a lot of tension and it's a new country.
It's a new country.
New weather, exactly If youcould go to Nairobi and not
bleed.
Then this other place is crazy.
Yes, so those are some of thechallenges that actually
contributed to you to considerleaving Microsoft.

Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
Was there challenges?
Really, I just thought it wastime to leave.
Well, actually there was achallenge, but I can tell you
off mic Okay, but no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
This is very important for anyone who works
for a company that actually weneed to move around the world.
It's not as easy as it sounds.

Speaker 2 (01:38:18):
It's fun, like you know it looks good, it looks
good I mean white land I will goto seattle but also the.

Speaker 1 (01:38:25):
The change, especially when you have a
family, is not that easy.
Yeah, and I think somecompanies have started actually
recognizing that and they have afamily.
It's not that easy, yeah, and Ithink some companies have
started actually recognizingthat, and they have a support
system around that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
Yeah, so shortly after I didn't stay at Microsoft
for too long.
After I moved to London Spent ashort time and then I joined
Netlify.

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
Yeah, Netlify is based in the US.

Speaker 2 (01:38:47):
It's a US company that's remote yeah.
So there, you started building,uh but that's where I started
working on the build system.
Yeah, well, you see, like yousee, a general trend is that
I've just been working ondeveloper tool.
Like I said, I've been verypassionate about that since then
guys who are listening to us.

Speaker 1 (01:39:02):
These are the modest tech bros who you don't know
about by the until these uhpodcasts and I'll bring some of
them because, uh, I feel likeand these are just to say, oh,
these guys are making millionbucks and you know, not that
hula baloo, and even if they'remaking it's the effort, for sure
is that they have done someamazing work.

(01:39:24):
That actually a you know, uh,and I feel like you guys are so
modest.
I know a couple of you.
Like if you go through, youknow, through their LinkedIn
profile, if you don't know thempersonally, you might think
nothing's happening, but a lotof things.
But please share, oh, for sure,yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:39:38):
So about the Well?
This discussion comes up everso often on Twitter about a
developer earning this much,another earning this much.
It's good to make money, true,true, but what I think is more
important is to do good work.
Yes, I agree with you so likeif, if I was starting in my
career, I would advise someoneto focus more on their craft

(01:40:00):
than on their payslip.

Speaker 1 (01:40:01):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:40:03):
I'm not saying like, don't, like I just said before,
I negotiate aggressively, butyou've.

Speaker 1 (01:40:10):
personally, I find more satisfaction from the work
yes, the money just comes as apackage to keep your life
comfortable, but it's not like abig deal well, it's a big deal,
the work is a bigger deal.

Speaker 2 (01:40:22):
I'm not, I'm not underplaying the value of money
yeah, but definitely let's.

Speaker 1 (01:40:28):
Let's say the way it is.
So if I come to you and I'mlike there's this project you're
building, but know that youknow it's a startup and you see
the value, you could actuallyget involved in it based on that
especially if it's true.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Actually, right now I'm on a career break, so I
decided to take time off aftersome time, and what I'm doing
now is just dipping my toes inearly stage startups.
I'll give you a demo.

Speaker 1 (01:40:59):
You've answered my question, but indirectly, but I
hear you.

Speaker 2 (01:41:03):
Yeah, so that's what I'm saying.
From what I'm doing now.
I'm not getting paid, Becauseeven if the guy was to pay me,
he probably wouldn't know itwould be If you showed him your
last paycheck, the conversionwould end there.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
Now I'll ask another question, and I've seen this
even before Microsoft.
everything came into playWhereby someone works for Google
for five years and theneventually not that you know
they're fired or anything.
Or maybe their contract, youknow, expires and they need to
renew it, but they don't chooseto renew it and they go and

(01:41:42):
start doing music or doing someother things or be staff mostly.
What was?
Is this like they feel likethey are more satisfied doing
all these things?
Or is this the personal choiceto like take a break?
What, what, what is this reallyprocess?
Look like?

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
well, the part that the people most people don't, uh
give a lot of attention to isthe serving bit.
Before you take like a careerbreak, you need to have served
for it.
Oh, okay, because there is nosource of income, you're only
from like a savings.
Yeah, yeah, and you have tohave served for it.

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):
Oh okay, because there is no source of income.

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
Yeah, you're only eating from liquor savings.

Speaker 1 (01:42:12):
Yeah, yeah, and you have to have a plan around like
what was what's that gonna looklike if you're gonna come back.
But I know a guy from uganda.
Uh, maybe I should look for himwhen I'm there.
Um, it's called elijah kitakaand he used to work for Google
back in the day and he just justputs Google.

(01:42:33):
And there's another guy whoused to do Ruby.
I think he's a American, Ican't remember his name.
He came to the community andsaid you know what?
This is my last month at Google, uh, but I feel like I should
not work for big tech anymore.
I'm more interested in startup.
I'm more interested in my otherprojects that are not even tech
.
Does big tech really take ahuge toll on you?

(01:42:55):
How is that?

Speaker 2 (01:42:57):
Well, I've worked for Microsoft for 30 years.

Speaker 1 (01:42:59):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:43:03):
So it depends on the person.
It's an individual part, it's acase-by-case scenario, but you
can have a very fulfilling lifeat Microsoft, at Google, at
Facebook.
So you know, it depends on whatmakes you tick.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
That makes a lot of sense, but I, okay, I'll look
for this fox when I, yeah, whenI get time.
I think Elijah has some radioor something, if I remember.
Yeah, very interesting fella,very interesting fella.
Yeah, so you go to London formonths, does it?
And now you start working inNetlify.
Am I saying it right, netlify?

(01:43:38):
So what exactly is this?
Building services?

Speaker 2 (01:43:44):
So what Netlify does is it pioneered the idea of
Jamstack?
Jamstack is JavaScript, apisand Markdown.
Essentially, before that, folkswould love to build a WordPress
.
They love to bring up aWordPress instance and then
maintain the WordPress backend,all that stuff right.

(01:44:05):
The other thing is WordPress isquite slow.
Or at least when Jamstack wassort of gaining steam, wordpress
was quite slow.
Or at least when Jamstaff wassort of gaining steam, wordpress
was quite slow.
Yeah, so Netlify pointed thiswhole idea of all you need is
just Markdown and a set of APIsfor you to cover a website on
the internet.
So what happens is when someonepushes their code to GitHub,

(01:44:29):
netlify pulls that the code,builds, builds it and deploys it
.
So that is the build service.
Now, that is the team where Iwas working.
That's what we're doing, that'sinteresting.

Speaker 1 (01:44:40):
Oh very much.
It was like a new challenge.
It was fun right.

Speaker 2 (01:44:44):
Yes, also, the only downside was it was really easy
to break people's workflowBecause if you introduce a bug
in the build it's like thebackbone of the whole Netlify
offering.
So if you introduce a bug therethe impact gets amplified
really quickly.
Or sometimes you could break,say, all Ruby builds Because

(01:45:08):
there is a million other builds.
You sort of don't notice thatruby builds are broken.
So until someone treats orsomething, so has it ever
happened?
Oh yeah for sure A couple oftimes.

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):
So was it like an insider joke?
Guys, you have broken everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:45:25):
Like a rite of passage.

Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
Oh, so it was with you directly, or?

Speaker 2 (01:45:31):
Oh yeah, like a broken production.
Not the most fun of moments,but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45:37):
Because you're like guys.
Maybe you think I don't knowwhat I'm doing.
There's that self-doubt.

Speaker 2 (01:45:42):
Oh yeah, we all have that Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:45:47):
so how long do you work on that?
How are you still working on it?

Speaker 2 (01:45:49):
No, I was in Nellify for a year.
I came back in Kenya last yearin September.
Okay, so I left Nellify when Icame back to Kenya.
I left for personal reasons,but also never really liked the
UK, so I decided to come backhome.
And I decided, okay, since I'mcoming back home, let me just

(01:46:11):
take some time off.
Okay okay.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
So what is not good in London?
You normally say Maisha.

Speaker 2 (01:46:18):
London, qua grande London is a nice place, by the
way.
It's a nice place, it was justnot for me.

Speaker 1 (01:46:29):
You know, there's this joke that I used to share
in high school when you want tosleep extra hours, when you're
supposed to be sleeping, and wewould surround our beds with
curtains so that no one knowsthere's someone there and tuck
it.
So when you look at it, it'svery neat, but there's someone
sleeping there and you don'tmove around.
So when you get caught by maybea prefect captain like Manze I
was like Baisha Landon, maybe Iprefer Captain Like Manze, I was
like Maisha Landar.

(01:46:50):
And then the parish.
You know, this is the MaishaLandar.

Speaker 2 (01:46:57):
Yeah Well, Landar is a good place.

Speaker 1 (01:46:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:02):
Is it too expensive to live?
You know it can be tooexpensive if you don't have a
good job.

Speaker 1 (01:47:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:07):
Well, thankfully, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:47:15):
I was okay, yeah, I was okay, yeah, yeah.
So, uh, and is it a good place?
To raise up a family, a youngfamily?
No, it's not yeah why that?
There's okay, please paint thepicture for me.
I've never been okay.

Speaker 2 (01:47:24):
I've just passed through idro, nothing much so,
um, actually it might be a goodplace yeah, depends with a yeah,
it depends with your with anumber of things.
If your family there, it can beeasier, but if it's just you,
say, and your wife, or you andyour husband, it can be

(01:47:46):
difficult because, uh, childcare is expensive.
Even if you're earning a lot ofmoney, childcare is expensive
but it can really put a strainon your day-to-day life.
And the other obvious thing is,of course, your value system.
If you're more conservative,then probably not the best place

(01:48:07):
.
If you're more liberal, itcould be an okay place.
Yeah, I would say.

Speaker 1 (01:48:15):
And there is every man for himself and God for us
all.
If you believe in God.
Okay, so if you, that's evenmore interesting.
If you don't believe in God,then that's why people go to
therapy, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:31):
You see, the strings are happy.
You know why that's even moreinteresting.
If you don't believe in God,then that's why people go to
therapy.
The strings are happy.
You know why therapy is notvery common in Africa?
It's because we go to church.
We go there and sing and clapand laugh.
When we come back home, we havereleased all the tension, so
there is no build-up.
This is my theory.
Don't quote me on this.
If you feel stressed, it wouldprobably be a good idea to see a

(01:48:53):
therapist.
This is your personal opinion.
It's why I've not gone totherapy.
I go and sing, yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:49:02):
I tend to agree with you, but I also have another
view about churches.
Nowadays they look likepersonal businesses, most of
them, and Catholics as well,also Catholic Okay, this aside,
it looks like a Pope's business,but spirituality is very

(01:49:22):
important.
Let me say that If you reallyand I normally define with my
guests three things that reallyare important Body, mind and
soul and soul here can be yourspirit If all those are stable
enough, however, you keep themstable.
It's very very importantbecause life might push one.

Speaker 2 (01:49:42):
So getting into philosophy actually made me
appreciate the soul more thanbefore I got into philosophy,
because I would hear the wordsoul and it wouldn't mean
anything, it would just be agood word.

Speaker 1 (01:49:57):
I can understand you, and what I'm trying to say is
that people should do more workin ensuring that they keep those
three in balance and understandthem clearly.

Speaker 2 (01:50:06):
Yeah, I think everyone should at least read
Apology by Plato.
It's about Socrates defendinghimself when he was about to get
judged for being an artist.
Essentially, yeah, so everyoneshould read.

(01:50:28):
It's a recommendation, astrongly recommended.

Speaker 1 (01:50:30):
Yeah, and Plato works quite impressively, and a
couple of others.
The guy I talked about, Ken.
He's a fan of some of thosephilosophers and it's really
good.
I even keep tabs on what he'sreading and follow through.
Yeah, so London doesn't workfor you Well.

Speaker 2 (01:50:52):
London works out, work for you.
Well, london works out quitewell actually, but I decided I
didn't like it.
So when things aligned, Idecided to come back home.

Speaker 1 (01:51:02):
Yeah, and you're back home and welcome back.
You're like, how many monthsold?
Three, four, six months, yeah,maybe six, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:51:11):
You're enjoying, you know the weather is great.
I mean, is it a better place tobe than?

Speaker 1 (01:51:16):
Mombasa yeah, you have your family close to you
and even friends.
Everything is familiar, yeah.
So what next for Jafet?

Speaker 2 (01:51:29):
That's a good question.
So right now, uh, I might goback to employment.
Okay, if things don't work out,okay, uh, but for the
foreseeable future, I just seemyself, uh, in startups, mm
Early stage preferably.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah Well you're building end toend.

(01:51:56):
Yes, uh, currently.
So when I was uh coming back,when I said to come back, uh,
joshua monique, who is a formercountry director of andela, uh
calls me and tells me hey, jeff,I have this startup idea.
Well, I have this startup.
I was part of the ideainitially, but before I went to
london, yeah, and then thatrelocation made things difficult
for me to be able to contributeto the startup.
So when I decided to come back,he called me.

(01:52:18):
He didn't know you were comingback.
No, he didn't know I was comingback.
Just random Random.
He asked me to come and helpwith the effort.
So, that's what I'm doing rightnow, and maybe a few other
things as well.
Does he still?

Speaker 1 (01:52:33):
work with Andel or he left no, he left Andel,
interesting man.
And then you know me from dayzero.
I'm now in support ofentrepreneurship and building
new solutions, new opportunities, because if you look at Africa
at large, we need those toincrease the employment, to
increase the opportunities andcreate wealth, because right now

(01:52:55):
there's a lot of scarcitywhereby if someone offers you
maybe you know just an otherwisedeal, you just take it.
But otherwise, if there weremore deals, there could be more
negotiation and you could makeit, and then more people could
have more resources to build.
You know more solutions.
So please follow the rule.

(01:53:18):
But of course, I understand,when you have a family, things
can get a bit difficult and youreally need to get something.
Don't feel like you know, it'sup to you, man.
At the end of the day, it'swhat you make with what you have
.
So, jafet, when we started thisboth the mic, you know you gave
us some interesting proverbs.

(01:53:40):
I love them.
We have made it a habit toalways conclude using you know
African proverbs and since yousound like you're familiar with
the Soili one, anyone that comesoff.

Speaker 2 (01:53:55):
Oh yeah, oh yeah okay .

Speaker 1 (01:53:59):
But after that we can encourage guys to subscribe,
like, subscribe and share.
This is a YouTube channel, sure.

Speaker 2 (01:54:10):
The one we talked about when we started this
podcast was uh Kufa Kwa Kiba,kufa Kwa Kiba.
Rain In your Vivo yeah, ittranslates to dying of thirst in
the ocean is laziness, uh,which is sort of like uh, an
ironical, uh, sort of like a, adodge more than a advice, really
.
Yeah so, but essentially itmeans that when you're in a

(01:54:36):
place where there is a lot ofresources and then you fail to
do well, then it is out ofpleasantness, okay yeah, you
have another one off the chartsum, not a proverb, but I will
say a philosophy.
One will be socrates.

(01:54:56):
Uh, know thyself.
It's very useful to know you'rebecause that all matters of
toys hidden down because notonly does it matter, it gives
you, it helps you decide what isgood for you, because if you

(01:55:17):
don't know yourself, you don'tknow what is good for you.
Yes, you don't have enoughinformation to decide what's
good for you.

Speaker 1 (01:55:24):
Okay, okay, okay.
Thank you so much, Jaffer.

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