#30 - Itumeleng Moagi - Impact Masters Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Michael Kimathi (00:04):
yes, yes, yes, yes, thank you so much.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
It's a beautiful day.
It's a beautiful day and today,africa's talking podcast in
collaboration with impactmasters podcast, brought to you
by mk or michael Michael Kemaliif you want Amazing, amazing

(00:29):
guest, you have today.
You can hear her from afarlaughing.
She's amazing.
And today we keep talking aboutAfrica and African stories,
bringing you Impact Masters.
And today we're joined by theguest coming all the way from

(00:52):
the land of Mtsansi, southAfrica, if you want.
So, before even we talk to ourguests, today it's something
that is amazing, that ishappening across Africa, the 54
countries, and they keep growing.
I feel like we should justcombine all of them and we have
one continent that is unitedwith one purpose and doing
amazing stuff, especially intech.
I'm so selfish with this,especially in tech, because the

(01:16):
three things that that remainconstant across music,
entertainment and technology.
So today we have a TumilengMohagi or Tumi Mohagi, but she
prefers to be called TumiAriyako, oriyako, oriyako.

(01:38):
She will tell us why, and Ithink we were talking earlier
and she wanted you know, tounderstand how this goes.
But I think also this isimportant for women, who are
making moves, movers and shakersand she's really big.
To show you how big she is,she's a co-founder at Invoice
here and country head in SouthAfrica at Africa Stalking.

(01:59):
She's based in the city ofJohannesburg, south Africa, and
she's done amazing stuff,especially with developers.
She's so passionate about them,helping them, connecting them,
giving them free stuff to testtheir solutions, among as many
other things that actually shedoes day to day and I work

(02:22):
closely with her and I'm soexcited from day one when I knew
her, and I'm sure you guys aregoing to be excited.
So, without further ado,without so much shenanigans, I
want to welcome Tomi Mohagi.
Tomi, how are you?
I'm good.

Itumeleng Moagi Oriaku (02:38):
Oh my goodness, this is so exciting.

No, I mean it is yeah, welcome.
I'm glad that you found it Welldone to you guys.

Itumeleng Moagi (02:46):
Congratulations , thank you so much.

I mean, this podcast is awesome, oh yeah,
yeah Also congratulations.
And it's not just podcast, butalso there is a video rolling,
so you're going to see her.
You're going to see howbeautiful she is.
I'm trying not to get thecamera told her let's go and do
some coffee.
Can I not prepare?
You know, I'm looking homelyand all that.

(03:10):
I'm like the people you'll betalking to, they don't judge, so
you can tell us all this.
So, Tumi, how are you?

I'm very well.
I'm so excited At last you'redoing this, and I'm honored.

I am honored to be invited to do this me too.

I am so honored.
Accepted the invite.
I am sorry, guys, get what shetold me myself uh-huh, uh-huh,
uh-huh.

This is what she said.
Let me see what she said and Ilove this.
To me, I really love this.
I love this.
Let me see quickly yeah, yeah,this is really good.
Is that your mk?
Let's do these where you at?
I'm like that's amazing.
I love that energy and that'swhat actually changes things.

(03:55):
If you don't know, yeah, that'sthat actually changes the
dynamics of things.
So to me, uh, when we havethese conversations, we like to
know who you are, not just youknow the stuff that is in a
profile and stuff like you likepresenting to the corporate
world, like who are you?
Where were you born?
What is it like?
You know, where did you go toschool?
How was it?
You know, things that actuallysomeone, when they listen to you

(04:16):
, they're like you know, that'sme, maybe you know back in the
day and actually I can be this,I can be this and I can be able
to like reach out and say youknow what?
This is, what is happening.
Yeah, how can I figure that out?
And also figure it out, so tellus about you.

That's never like.
That's one question I don'tknow how to answer properly.

Just answer yeah.

I'm going to give it a try.
Yeah, I'm going to give it atry.
So I am known as Tumi Mo'achi,yeah, but my full name is
Itumeleng Mo'achi Oriyaku.
So, yes, I would say mybusiness profile and my

(05:03):
professional profile.
I'm known more as Tumi Mo'achi,and at home I am Tumi Oriyaku,
a mother, and at home I am TumiOryaku, a mother.
Tumi Oryaku is a mother of awife.
You know, I'm a giver.
I take care of my family.
I have two kids Wow that'sbeautiful.
So that is.

and just before we started recording, by the
way, guys, these two kids looklike Nelson Mandela.
If you have a chance to see whothey are, you'll either greet
me or just tell me you got yourdream, but they resemble.

I keep telling you you and many, many
other people, which is weird, Ithink my friends from West
Africa and East Africa are likeoh, he's a little Mandela.
I'm like where?
Yeah?

Yeah, they look like Nesma.
You know, this is somethingthat actually I think shines
that star that maybe they'regoing to do great stuff.
I really hope so.

I really want the best for my children.
Yeah.
So yeah, that's Tumi Oryakru.
That's my personal profile.
My professional profile I amItumeleng Mo'ahi.
Otumi.
Mo'ahi, I'm an entrepreneur.
I would like to believe thatI'm a problem solver.
I really believe in community,in handshakes, making things

(06:24):
work, collaboration, um.
So that is what I doprofessionally I join the dots.
You know I'm very big aboutpartnerships.

You know about cooperation, cooperation and
you're really good at things.

You're so good I really hope so yeah um
, there's no, there's no hopewith this.

You're good.
You're already doing amazingstuff already.
Okay, I can say that because Iwork closely with you and what
you have achieved so far, I canreally say you are good.
I really you are a definitionof people who are supposed to be
doing partnership, because youdo them happily and also you
make everyone feel taken care ofand even beyond that, you

(07:04):
follow up, which most peopleafter the partnership has
happened.
They don't follow up, but we'llget there.
So where were you born?
Where did you?

school.
I was born and bred in SouthAfrica, in Gauteng, soweto.

Did you say Soweto?
Yes, you know.
When I visited South Africa,they told me you better take me
to Soweto.
So I can see how it's a bigculture.
That's where the Amapiano camefrom right?

Yes, I think so.

And I think the older journal, what was the
name?
The one that those three, Ithink there are two ladies and a
guy.

Is this music?
You know, I really like it, noproblem.

I Is this music , you know I really Okay, no
problem, I don't have my factswhen it comes to music.
Most of the journals actuallythey've been like originated
from that and then being evolved.
Now they are big in the world,but that's because I love music,
yeah.
I feel the problem.

I always say I always struggle when
people ask me about Amapiana andI'm like I don't, you don't you
don't love music I.
I don't know why I'm not amusic person.

I don't know why never even listen to any
music.

Um, I, I do listen to music, but I, oh,
I'm a taylor swift kind of girl,oh you know, okay, so that is
africans.

we need to convert one of us, but I like
funny I like East African music.

The pop you like in band.
Ah, Sao Tisou Sao?

Speaker 4 (08:33):
Tisou.
Oh, my goodness, give me SaoTisou.
What's up, what's up, sao Tisou.

Anytime, anytime, the vibe, yes, yes.
That was like.
That's also how my husband wonmy heart.

In a that there was like, that's also how my
husband won my heart in a wayokay, we see you, we see you
okay.

But yeah , so, born and bred in Soweto,
that was after the wholeapartheid of okay, well, I was
born in during apartheid, but,like I would say, I don't think
I was, I don't think I'veexperienced it as much as you
know how my parents did, becauseI was young.
You know I was still small, soraised in Soweto.

(09:18):
I grew up with, I was raisedwith my mom and dad, of course
by my mom and dad, but I livedwith my grandma, oh right that
was when we were small so my momand dad lived at my grandma's
place okay it's like one ofthose community.
My grandma is a nurturer, so she, oh, she was a nurturer.

(09:40):
Her beautiful soul continued torest in me, so we lived there
until, I think, until I wasaround nine, ten I think so and
then um.
But I do have memories ofdaycare.
You know, my grandma wouldfetch me, or our neighbor which

(10:03):
would fetch me.
Um, my grandma would fetch me,or our neighbor would fetch me
um.
My mom would usually be at work.
And, funny, at that age my dadwas not around because he was a
construction worker and I guess,this is the the effects of
apartheid, oh yeah where hewould be working out of town.
Um, you know, to try to makeends meet and I would only see

(10:25):
him probably after two weeksyeah he would come home every
fortnight for a weekend andlikes yeah, so that that is my
my um kindergarten memory andthen primary school.
I went to um, uh, I thenstarted living with my parents
after they had bought a houseand I think also that memory

(10:48):
reminds me.
So that memory of primaryschool and stuff reminds me of
community and that's probablywhere it comes so naturally in
the work it reminds me ofcommunity, because even our
teachers at daycare knew ourneighbors.
So it's not like today, where itis quite strict and more
business.
Yes, it can only be, your momor dad or you know you need to

(11:11):
actually sign a paper to say whocan come fetch your child.
Yeah, then they knew ourcommunity members and there was
a big, a good relationship withthem yeah so, um that, that
memory really um attaches me tocommunity, it reminds me it, it
gives me that feeling of exactlywhat, how community molded me

(11:37):
right um and then um, moving to,to, to my parents house.
That taught me a lot aboutindependence, right, because my
mom I mean I have very humblebeginnings.
You know I'm not from a wealthyfamily and stuff, so I've seen
my mom and dad work hard and forpeanuts.
I've seen them sweat sweat,sweat for peanuts.

(12:01):
And that is why I'm saying I amgrateful that now we're at the
age, and that's this is why Ilove tech.
I'm grateful that we're at theage where collaboration is the
north star, yeah, of successyeah right, yeah because, um, I
saw how my parents did it bythemselves yeah, was it more

(12:22):
competition for them or?
No, no, it's just lack ofopportunities.
My mom at that time was a tillpacker.
Yeah.
My dad was a constructionworker.
Yeah Right, my dad would comehome fortnightly because he
worked out of town.
But that man worked so hard, hestudied so hard, did not get

(12:44):
recognition, but he continued towork and work.
It's not like he was abricklayer or anything like that
.
He's never been that.
He was always a safety andhealth officer, but because he
was black, he could not earnenough.
He got the job, but he did notearn enough.
And I've also also been in aposition where I work hard, work

(13:08):
so hard.
But, my white boss told me Iwant to promote you but I can't
Because you're black and becauseyou are young I was 19 years
old then Because you're young.
So yeah, there's, you know theeffects of our country's history
.

There's so much you can do.

Yes, she literally said it.
I want to promote you because Ican see your potential.
Yeah.
But our environment does notallow me to do that, so I'm
assuming my dad went through thesame thing.

And this is you at 19.

Now you can imagine, maybe during
apartheid and all these otherthings that are going on in
South Africa, went through thesame thing.
You know, and this is you at 19.
Now you can imagine me at 19and you know all these other
things that are going on insouth africa me at my first job.
Yes, oh, my god.
So, um, yeah, so I think thethe working hard thing yeah, I
got that from my parents because, I've seen how they struggled
for peanuts yes, yes and I.
We were so poor I didn't knowhow we're going to get out of

(14:03):
poverty.
It was, it was.
You know.
You know when you're in asituation and you have no
exposure.

You don't see tomorrow you don't see tomorrow.
You're like if I live today andI'm alive tomorrow.
I'm going to fight again.
I've been in that situation.
I'll tell my story.
I know how that feels like.
Yes, it's really hard, and nowyou have children.

Yes, really hard.
And now you have children, yes,who you don't know what's gonna
happen to them, in case theypass the exams and with them I
want my my children to know that, um, they need to fight
themselves out of any situation.
Yeah right, yeah, um.
Yes, right now things arecushioned.
It's nice you know, becausethey're young but even as young
as they are, they need to knowhow to fight themselves out of a
situation, because we're notgoing to be there forever they
need to know how to be creative.

(14:53):
One thing about poverty you willbe creative.

And innovative at the same time.

You will be innovative Because you don't
have any other choice.
You do not have any otherchoice.

And you have no one sometimes to fight for you
at the position of influence.

And I'm mentioning poverty because that
was my struggle.
Yeah.
Right, and I'm sure people haveother struggles, you know,
outside of poverty.

True, true.

But I'm just mentioning what I had to
deal with.
So yeah, that is where I justwant to explain the kind of
person I am, how I you knowplease, by all means community
was like.
You know what I?
I think, um, when I'm thinkingabout where my love for
community started, it'sdefinitely from getting the love
from the people around me andhaving the safe, that security,

(15:40):
knowing that I'm at daycare, mymom's at work, someone's gonna
come for me, yeah, someone'sgoing to come for me.
Someone's definitely going tocome for me.
Yeah, yeah.
And when I was in primary schoolto high school, I had to
witness hard work through myparents, you know so when my
parents couldn't.
Okay, so the high school I wentto it was one of those, you

(16:02):
know um, one of those ghettohigh schools where, um gosh,
wait a minute to me yeah.

So primary.
You were in kindergarten, soprimary school.
How was it?

Primary school.
It was also in one of those umit was better than what we got
from.

Soweto.
Yeah, it was a bit of anupgrade, so it was outside
Soweto it was outside of.

Soweto.
It was a bit of an upgrade, soit was outside Soweto.
It was outside of Soweto.
But it was also in a rough area.
But it was an upgrade from ahigh school.
So I needed to go to an Englishschool, so that's where my
parents took me.

What language did these people maybe went to,
you know, primary school inSoweto spoke?

In Soweto we spoke Setswana, so
they were teaching your homelanguage, depending on which
school you went to.

So even English actually was translated to
Setswana.

Yeah, so you get books in Setswana.
You math, you study it inSetswana.
Biology, whatever it is thatyou're studying, you do it in
Setswana.

It's so hard to understand Because I'm sure
even there are differentdialects.
Hard to understand?
Yeah, because I'm sure eventhere are different dialects.
Maybe there are differentaccents and sometimes
translation is not the right,the perfect one, perhaps.

Perhaps, but I was too young to even
really know that.
Yeah, because.
I think I did primary school inSoweto for a year.
Yeah.
And then I went to anotherschool and it was that was a
very good school a very goodschool, but they had some
administration issues.
So I only went there for sixmonths.

(17:29):
That was grade two, yeah, andthen in june I was then moved to
another school to grade threeso I did two grades in one year
wow that's amazing yeah, in thatyear it was the same year I had
to learn english.
I remember remember my first dayat the Bupilo.
That was the first Englishschool I went to.
I got into class and I wentthere during the year.

(17:51):
So I think I started aroundFebruary, March, something like
that.
So I got there and theteacher's like close the door.
You know what that means.
So I look.
She's like close the door.
I don't know what it means, soI pick up a piece of cloth and I
give it to her.
She's like close the door.
That was embarrassing for me.
That was so embarrassing for meand the kids are laughing at me

(18:15):
.

Because they think there's another.
Yes, like who's this they callthem in Nigeria, mumu Mumu, that
has now to speak English.

And I don't know why that memory stuck
with me, but it always did.

It always did.
I promised myself that yes.

I promised myself that you know
what, and probably that waswhere my need to learn started.
So I picked up English, and soresearch says that if you teach
a child in their mother tongue,it's easier for them to pick up
to learn.
English Other than the otherway around.

(18:57):
Yeah, and I believe so, becauseduring that period I picked up
with English, I learned, andwhen I went to the second school
in that same year, I actuallygot an A for an English
assignment in that class.
And to me that was a very proudmoment, because I had just

(19:19):
gotten there and I had to writea speech about my favorite
animal and I wrote about how Ilove tigers and I got an A and
my teacher was so impressed.

But to me you are also smart.
So that's why I say how peoplespeak doesn't define how smart
they are.
You cannot just hear someonespeak and you say you know what,
you know?
Yeah, because accents in.

English.
We have a way as and I don'tknow if this applies, I don't
think from my experience inother African countries nobody
really cares how you speak yourEnglish.
They care about the message.

But in South Africa we have, yes, we have
this class.
You know classism.

If you speak well, you fit in.
You fit in a lot of stuff youknow and if you don't speak so
well, we laugh at you Like didyou hear how he pronounced this
word?
And that's also what I grew upwith in primary school.
If we had foreign teachers,it's like oh, did you hear how
he pronounces this word?
And how he pronounces this?
What, yeah?
And how he pronounces this.

What yeah, so you focus so much on things that
really don't matter?

Yes, and I went to a school where the
accent is different.
It's very sharp.
So people, they don't talk likethis.
They used to talk really hard.
What?
What does that mean theirpronunciations was pronounced
like was deep?
So we call them colored schools,so those are a mixed race.

(20:47):
You know when, when, um, uh,people that are mixed race, so
perhaps black parents or, uh,you know, uh, white parents with
indian, yeah, just the themixed race.
Um, yeah, descendants, yes,yeah, so that's what, um, that's
the kind of school we went to.
Because of that, laughing atpeople that can't speak English.
I had to learn, I had to teachmyself how to learn how to speak

(21:11):
proper without pronouncing myT's like a T.
I don't talk like this.
I talk like this.
I did not go to a school wherethere's all whites and stuff, no
, but you had to learn.
You had to learn how to speak fand because I had insecurities

(21:31):
about my poverty, I did not wantto be outcast like do me.
You can't be poor and not speakwell and not study you cannot
be.
Yes, choose your struggles,yeah, you know, yeah, and I
remember in primary I never usedto study much.
You know, I never used to study.
I didn't like it.
I don't know how I used toembrace education, but I did not

(21:55):
like it.
It was only when I got to highschool that I had to remember, I
had to know.
And because you're young,you're in primary, things are
easy.
Yeah.
Right.

It's easy to pause.
Yeah.

But then it only hit me when I got to
tertiary that, no, I need tofocus.
Yeah, you know I need to fightfor myself.
Yeah.
And that also contributed fromlike a bit of bullying.

Yeah.
You know, so in primary schoolwere you bullied?
Yes, how?

We had, you know, some guys in our class
that he would just come andjust take my stuff.

Push me around, you don't matter here.

Yes, I would report him to the teachers
.

But nothing will happen.

Nothing happens.
I report him to my dad.
On days when my dad is able tocome to school.

He would come.
Yeah.

But I think bullying has something to
do with how people are alsoraised, because they don't care
they feel always powerful morethan you know this guy used to
take my pens all the time and Iwould tell him.
I'm gonna tell my dad yeah andhe's like your dad's gonna come
to school for a pen, you know.

I thought about it like that's so traumatizing
for a little girl.

He's kind of right, I'm sending my
dad to this school for a pen.
I need to find a way to fightfor myself.
Yeah.
And I found a way to build arelationship with my bully.
That was the only way it couldwork for me Okay, okay, that was
the only way, I think, I stillremember his name.

His name was Ashley.

As your partnerships comes in, Okay, no
worries, yeah, go ahead.
I think that was the only way Icould build a relationship with
him.
So, if he took my pen, I'd belike take it, I have another one
, you can have it, you know.
And now he started to come tome when he lost his pencil.
Like yo Mwahi, can I borrowyour pencil, Mwahi?

(23:46):
I'm going to take.
Take it you know like you'respeaking.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like take itactually.
Yeah, you can have it.
You know, yeah, um, and thatthat.
So it doesn't mean that hestopped.
I still feared him a little bit, but I didn't show him yeah
this time I was like I'm notgonna show him, I fear him.
I'm just gonna build thatrelationship so I'm not
vulnerable yeah, right, yeahhigh school, I still got bullied
okay I like my bully.
This time she was bigger than me.
I was so scrawny, I was tight,I was skinny.

(24:09):
So every time she would chaseme around a classroom I would go
under the tables and she can'tgo under the tables because
she's bigger than me, you know.
And.
But I also learned how to usehumor to cover up for myself, to
teach myself how to protectmyself.
So that's when the bullyingsubsided, I think the one thing

(24:35):
that taught me how to buildrelationships was that my
friends would laugh at me when Iwas getting bullied.
They couldn't help.

Yes, they couldn't help.

Yes.

They wouldn't speak.

I remember I once had a friend
that I thought she was my bestfriend.
Yeah.
And she would always laugh atme when I'm getting bullied.
Yeah.
And that's when I was like Ineed to monitor the friends I
make, the relationships I build,and I need to learn to detach
from whatever it is that iswrong.
I just have to.

(25:07):
You know it's okay.

Put a block and you know, move on.

I'm not going to be liked by anyone.

Yeah.

But whoever likes me, I will give, I
will give.
Yeah, yeah.
And perhaps that also speaksabout why it's so easy to work
so hard in a community, because,even though I'm not a developer
, yeah, I will attend ahackathon yeah with ease and
mentor the devs.
You know, uh, provideassistance where needed and if

(25:36):
there's technical assistanceneeded, then I would direct you
to the right person to say letme link you to this person, he's
gonna sort you out.
And now, with that kind of arelationship building skill,
people actually find comfortcomfort in with coming to you
and ask for help yeah becauseyou know how to sort their
problems out.
You might not be the personthat's gonna sort it out, but

(25:58):
you are the person that linksthem that connects them to what
they need, you know?
So, yeah, I think, maybe, maybethat's what made me the person
I am today.
You know all the littlestruggles that I had to go
through and understanding orfinding smart ways, if I may put

(26:19):
it that way, and finding smartways to leave or to get out of a
struggle, yeah, so you joinedthat.

This is high school.
And finding smart ways to leaveor to get out of a struggle,
yeah, yeah.
So you joined that this is highschool.
That's why you're in primaryschool, You're bullied.
High school, were you alsobullied?
Yeah, first few years, and thennow you go to tertiary
education.
Was it the same case oreveryone was focusing on like do
I make something out of myself?

So I think another reason why I was
bullied was because I was alwaysthe weirdo.
So you see, yeah, you see howpeople like music, people like
this, people like that I don'tknow.

I was always like, sort of like the outcast,
you know, laid back.
Yes, when everyone is sharing,you know what's cool, what's
happening?

yeah, I'm not, you know I'm not the
one in a group of like in agroup and in a deep conversation
no, I'm not in clicks yeah, Icould never do clicks yeah I'm
always probably the kid that'swalking alone
yeah, you know yeah but everyoneknows you and they like you,
but I'm just the one walking bymyself, um, didn't have a click.

(27:25):
So even in tertiary I wouldhave I had a group of friends,
but I was always the one thatwould laugh at the most.
You don't drink, you don'tparty, you don't you know you,
you just like school.
So in tertiary, um, um, I went,I went to a private tech
college.
So, and when I went there itwas I studied IT programming,

(27:51):
right, and I remember the firstyear you do A plus and N plus
and programming and, of course,marketing and all of those
business and stuff, and for yoursecond year you have to choose
between networking andprogramming.
So in my class and we only hadone tech class- yes, I don't

(28:12):
know why.

What do you mean?
One tech class?

There were just 20 of us in a tech
class.

And that's it.

Yes, the rest went to tourism business
and marketing.

I see yeah.

Yeah, so all 20 of us in one class, and
out of the 20, I was the onlyprogramming student.

Who chose I want to do programming.
I was the only one that choseprogramming, yeah.

Everyone else went to networking.
Yeah.
Everyone just preferred N+.
Yeah, and I cried.
Why.
Because our dean then was likewe.
I cried why?
Because our dean then?

was like we're going to have to move you to a
different branch where there'smore programming students.

And I was like but I want to stay here
, I want the because I was atthe I wouldn't say the coolest,
but the more.
What do you call it?
The upper class, the upperclass branch?

Oh, there are some affluent people.

Yes, yes .

People also are more friendly.

Yes, more friendly.
It was not as crowded as theother branch.

And, given your background, to adopting to
these people who see youdifferently.
You didn't want that experience.
Yes, yes.

I was so afraid of that exposure If I'm
going to go to another school,where there's masses, you know.
People are going to think I'm aweirdo and stuff like that.
I cried, I cried, I asked him.
He was like if we keep you,you're going to have to get 100%
in everything.
You know that's going to,because that's you know that's

(29:41):
going to, we're going to have touphold the grade.

And right now you have no one to reach out to.

Nobody.
Nobody in my class wants to doprogramming.
But do you think that?

decision was more selfish.
Like you know, you're investingall the resources to teach one
kid.
Why can't we combine these?
And you know.

I guess from the school side it was
going to be a waste of resources.

Yeah, yeah, that's how I feel, because at
the end of the day, it doesn'tmake sense.

You're investing so much into just one
person, where that person canuse the resources of another
branch.
So I had to get over it, triedit out and then the next year
for my second year I went to thebigger branch and, funny enough
, the people there were verywelcoming very accommodative,

(30:30):
very different cultures.
I think I made more friendsthere than I had at, the more.

Were there more girls in that side.

There were a little bit more girls
than there were in the firstbranch.

Oh, I see.

But I don't know why the girls that we
had in the second school didn'twant to work as hard.
The guys were more focused.
The girls didn't.
I think because of that time,because that was around 2007.
Oh yeah.

(31:07):
There was not enough exposureinto tech.
Yeah, true, true so some ofthem were trying it out.

And they couldn't understand why we
couldn't understand.

And I mean, I think, also the teaching
style, because we got there andI was still confused.
I was like I don't understandprogramming.
I don't understand it.

So there was also a problem with the teaching
.

I think so.

Yeah.

I feel like if, if, if, because the
exposure I got at the otherbranch was different.
Yeah.
That's what made me lovelanguages you know.
And then the, the, the secondbranch I got.

It was like here's your textbook, you guys
go learn and stuff you know umand you're like the same
experience you had, but now it'swith more people having the
same, because now you're goingto learn for yourself the same
way we would have exactly yes,exactly, I felt like I could
have just done that harry couldhave given me the chance at yeah
but um, I then just, you know,teamed up with people that know

(32:06):
what programming is and most itwas majority guys, I think the
girls that were.

There was only three of us that were
really passionate in in classabout programming yeah three
girls and the rest were like theguys that were working hard
yeah, um, I remember once wewere writing an exam and I think
it was Project Logic and Designwe used to call it PLAD and
this girl again, this girlsitting next to me and I'm

(32:34):
writing.
I'm writing Just as I'm aboutto get done, she grabs my paper
and gives me hers.
I'm so shocked.
What happened?
She just swapped our papers.
I'm like what just happened?

That means you have to start all over again.

Yeah, she's like shh, and this person
hardly attends class Hardly.
If she does come to class, it'sa Friday.

What does she do throughout?

the day, I don't know, she copies or
something she writes and thenshe brings it back.
Luckily she brought it back,but just as they were collecting
and I was like what?

Were you done when she grabbed?
Yes, I was done.

And I wasn't aware that she's looking
at me, because I'm just busywriting.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
And then, just as I'm done, the last.
Yes, she grabs it.

So I'm in shock and I'm panicking,
because had our lecturer seenthat?
He was going to think it's a,it was an arrangement, yeah
right, and I was going to failyeah I was probably just going
to be cancelled on that, on thatclass or that exam yeah so I'm
shocked and I'm panicking andI'm looking around.
I'm like what is why?
Why is this happening to me?
What, what is it about me?

that people see that you can take advantage of
why is it?

what is it about me that makes me look
like so easy to to?

easy target.
Yes, you know, and she gave itback.

I was just relieved, I, and I
immediately gave my paper away.
I didn't even you know afteryou write an exam after you,
you're done.
You want to double check youranswers?
I did not even do that.

So she put you in a disadvantage?
Yes, she put you in a risk.

I was like why.

And also she made you ask yourself a lot of
questions.

I guess at that point yeah.

What's happening.
Did you pass the exam though?
Yeah, I did.
I loved PLAD.

Project Logic and Design.
I've always liked it Nice, somaybe that's why I also like
Project Management and Styleyeah.
And then we had system analysisand design.
We used to call it SAD.
That is like you know, youwould understand system analysis
and design SAD.
That's like, oh, that is likeall the you know you're planning

(34:43):
all the SQL stuff and whatnotand relationships and stuff like
that.
So yeah, but I mean those werethe kind of subjects I enjoyed
when we got to tertiary and thatwas something that made me fall
in love with tech, because I'venever had exposure to these
things In high school.
When you go to computer class,it was just an Excel sheet that

(35:08):
was already opened for you andyou know that's where you would
learn to type.
So in tertiary.

That's when I got my first computer because of
the projects we got so that youcan explore other things that
exist in a computer that's how Igot into tech.

That's what made me excited.
You know, we were still burningdiscs, I mean music onto a disc
.

Yeah, they're called diskettes.
You guys use diskettes, right,or you just use the CDs.

Before we had, we had that.

What do you call?

it.
Yes, we had diskettes right,and then we had CDs afterwards.

And then DVDs and now flash discs, and now
we're moving to cloud.

Now it's cloud.

It's yes, and now we're moving to cloud.

So now it's our process.
I don't even have a flash drive.

Someone will listen to this 50 years to come.

What are they talking about?
Cloud, I know cloud.

We're talking about CD and the skates and you
know DVDs, cloud, maybe it willbe something different.
That's how tech moves forward,I think from the years you've
said is more than 10 years ago.

Yes, yes , yes, it is yeah, and it
actually does feel like it's old.

No, it's like 10, 12 years, 13 years, people
use diskettes.

Yes, which could not carry one MB
Floppy disks, that's what weused to call it Floppy disks.
Floppy disk, that's how old Iam, oh my goodness.

No, come on, guys, like 12 years ago, that's
what people used yeah.

So yeah, that's where my tertiary
journey started.

Wait a minute.
Three MB of space.

Imagine.

Three MB.

You would save your Word document in
there and then you have anotherfluffy disk for your Excel and
then your PowerPoint and youraccess file and your yeah, it
was Word, excel, powerpoint,access.
That's where, like you know allthe relationship things.

You can't save a photo in that.

No, you couldn't no photos no music.

Just it has to be a very short you know,
document that doesn't have toomany pictures yeah, yeah, and
now we have micro sds which areone terabyte seriously, yeah,
yeah yeah yeah yes, and the onethat we're using here to record
is like 128 gb.
Just a small piece of.
That's how piece of plasticyeah, yes it moves so fast that

(37:29):
sometime, if you're not catchingup, you'll just be, you know,
redundant yes yeah, so go on, goon.
Sorry, I had to mention that sothat people get the context of
what actually happens and I likethat.

Yeah, so people really understand, you
know, like the, the uh, and I'msure I mean this has been
brought up in some of thecourses and stuff that hey you
know, this is where we started,but the reality of it.

I think, Turing something whereby the
technology changes after every18 months.
Yes, yes, and it doesn't justchange or improve, you know, in
small margin it changesaltogether Everything that you
think you knew.
You need to relearn or maybeupgrade your knowledge about it.

That's the thing about tech you cannot
use two years ago's knowledgetoday.
It does not work.
Even six months ago it does notwork.
So yeah, I think that issomething I've always liked
about technology.
I wanted an industry where Ineed to constantly learn.

(38:33):
I really need to constantly belearning something new and
always be because you have feltlike an outcast for so many
years in tech, you find yourpeople.
We are all weirdos in our ownright.
And it's fun and it's likebeing in the creative industry.

yeah, creatives are weirdos that have accepted
themselves and they likethemselves and they see things
and they see things differentlyand they embrace it.

Yeah, so that's also tech yeah I feel
like people in tech don't haveto explain themselves, you know
yeah unlike if I'm going to bein business, there's a structure
and a way to look and feel anddo themselves.
You know, yeah, unlike if I'mgoing to be in business, there's
a structure and a way to lookand feel and do things you know,
but in tech, it's you you areenough, and you come as you are,
as long as you have a drive forknowledge you know, um and um.

(39:22):
So yeah, there was.
There was tertiary and thenafter tertiary I really thought
I was going to get a job in IT.
I was excited, but alsoeconomic pressures you know
there's pressure, pressure,pressure to find a job, because
you can't just be at home andtry to find a job.
It doesn't work.
So I found a job at a mediamonitoring company and we did

(39:46):
media analysis.
So anything that's on the newsthe radio, tv, newspapers,
magazines.

Did you guys listen to the TVs the whole day?
Yes, Writing notes Even advertsWere you writing notes or
recording.

Okay, so there's different departments.
Okay.
There's print, there'sbroadcast Right Print.
There's newspapers andmagazines.
In those there is um, there'sdaily newspapers, there's weekly
magazines, monthly magazines,business animals all the
different types.
So there's different, differenttypes of customers, right, and

(40:22):
they want they will tell you I'mgetting mentioned in this
particular newspaper and, uh, soyou need to tell them on which
page they got mentioned and youneed to show them a clip of the
article and you need to measurethe worth of that article
financial worth.

So you have to write a whole report.

Itumeleng Moagi Ori (40:40):
Advertising value equivalent.
So if you were to place an adon that paper, on that same page
, on that same spot, it would beworth this amount.

Why was this important?

This is for PR, so public relation
offices on that same page onthat same spot.
It would be worth this amount.
Why was this important?
This is for PR, so publicrelation offices use it to know
the worth of their brand, right,if you want to know what is
Africa's Talkings worth?
And I tell you, you guys gotfeatured in five front page
newspaper.
I mean in five front pages of anewspaper, a daily newspaper

(41:14):
that is read by five millionpeople in the country.
And then so that matters, thatdetail matters to the PR
managers.
It's like quantifying whatvalue you'll get if you
advertise.
If you were to advertise, whatis the value of that particular?

You think that's still a thing, or is it
just it's still a thing.

Media monitoring companies still exist
.
It's just that things aredifferent now, because
everything is online.
Yeah.
You know, and now we're lookingat a click per second, we're
looking at different kind ofmetrics instead of print, even
though you still have printpapers.
Even though you still haveprint papers, but people don't
really read hard copies as muchas they would read an article
online.
And by the time you get a hardcopy, it's all new and you don't

(41:56):
frame hard copies anymore.
These newspapers I'm tellingyou about in 2008 and 2009, you
would cut it, they would frameit if it was good news.

We were in news .

The big telcos, you frame it.
Yes, it means something to themand the executive members.
They want that piece ofinformation before even they
wake up in the morning.
You know how we wake up and thefirst thing we want is Twitter
or this and that.
That was the first item theywant.

(42:27):
I want to know what the worldis saying about my business,
Because then I need to have aresponse before 8 am.

So you monitor it in every.

Every article we used to monitor.

So how many dailies did you read before
midday?

Oh gosh, in Joburg alone, I think we had
13, 7 to 13 days how many wereyou?

whoa, the company was big no, the guys who
just ran these dailies oh,there would be around 12 people
okay, so at least two each, orthree each one, yeah, so yes,
two each.

So, and remember, you're looking for
different things.
You have people that arereading for the banks people
that are reading for the telcospeople that are reading for
community banks people that arereading for the telcos people
that are reading for community.

Did you do this overnight?
Now that you said, you know theCEO when he wakes up?

They start at 4.30.
4.30 am you have to be in theoffice.

It's like how radio morning shows work.
You have to be there, maybe doyour research after a while
Don't need the storage room.

Yes, exactly Wow.
Don't these destroy it?
Yes, exactly Wow.
The print monitors.
They come to work around.
So the newspapers, if they dropthem off at 3 am, the print
monitors have to be there, andthis was the days of scanning
stuff.

Now the print papers are available.
The fax age there's a scanningmachine.

There was these huge, super expensive
scanning machines that wouldscan the newspapers into these
for OCR, so that it's faster forthe readers to punch in the
keywords and find our customers.
If you want to be fast.
So that by 8 am, we have allyour coverage.
And then you also have thebroadcast people that would be

(44:08):
listening to the 8 am news Fiveminutes, five minutes.
Five minutes after they mentionyou, we have to send you an SMS
.

You say just five minutes ago, they mentioned
you.

And they're saying this and this, so
you must respond now becausebroadcast is as live as online,
right?
If I call the radio station,I'm complaining this news to me.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
I never knew this exists.
I'm complaining this news to me.

I never knew this exists.

I'm complaining about the president
of Kenya, the presidentialspokesperson.

Or press.

Or press , so anyone has to.
I mean the presidentialspokesperson has to have a
response within five minutes.

Yeah, I know this actually happens with the
president.
Yeah, you know, because at theend of the day, that's how they
know what is going on where andeverything, but never new
companies.
Actually at least articulateabout how they mentioned, when
they're mentioned, where they'rementioned yes, and it matters
where you are mentioned too.

Yeah if you're mentioned in some station
that's full of propaganda.
They don't really care, they'llthey don't even have to respond
but, if the prominent ones, youknow the big stations, the ones
, that where business go,because that's where the
investors are right, then youwant good press right, then
that's where they would have tomake sure you're always on the

(45:19):
ball with these stations.
And then you had the analysts.
The analysts are the peoplethat go through the items that
we've been monitoring for acertain period of time.
Some companies wanted theirmonitoring.
I mean analysis every week,bi-weekly, every month and every

(45:40):
quarter.
The motoring industry they wantit every month.
They want to know if they'relaunching a new product, a new
model.
They will be on their watchEvery week.
They need to know who are themagazines that are reporting
about their cars, who are thereviewers of their cars, what

(46:00):
are they saying If they paidsomeone to review it.
They need to know that thosepeople got press coverage or
broadcast coverage and it needsto be analyzed, you know,
because they need to take thatback to their leaders to say
South Africa is saying thisabout this German car yes, so
this is even overseas kind ofconversation that is happening

(46:22):
in real time.
Yes, it influences, and let meask this to me.
Even international brands likefashion brands we used to do
precise monitoring yeah I can'tmention brands of course but,
you would be surprised at thekind of brands that we were, the
ones that you would pay highprices to just get a bag yeah,

(46:43):
what are people?
Talking about yes, we gotmentioned in in south africa on
this particular magazine and youneed to measure it.
You need to measure the article.

Tell them what it's worth and where was it?

placed yes, what that mention is worth
and they take it back to thehead office to say this is what
they're saying in South Africaabout us.
This is how much the store ismaking.

So we need to push these kind of products to
the SA market.

So do you understand where?

yeah, so this one of like top PR, uh, you know
organization in South Africayes that one was the, the
biggest and the best?
Do you think also that, alsoinformed, how you know, we have
most of the stores, most of thecompanies opening in south
africa or um.

This was just you know yes, I think, I
think media monitoring just umdid influence a lot of the, a
lot of growth in in a certain inparticular uh markets yeah yeah
, because, like you said, thatexposure yeah, they want to
monitor that exposure so that'swhat?
Yes, yes to know whether it isactually worth an investment or

(47:51):
not, you know one of the biggest.
I remember I used to doeveryday reporting and analysis
for one of the biggest millersin SA.

What kind of miller Beer?

And brewery it was a brewery, so
they would report every morningto London to say this is what's
happening down in SA and therewas so many, so much investment
flown down Coming from.

London.
Yes coming from.

London to SA, Because of that coverage,
you know, because of thatexposure it grew them yeah.
It grew them so much.

Yeah, yeah.
To me this is reallyinteresting because I'm learning
so many things at the same time, and I'm sure anyone who will
listen to this, will listen tothis, will learn this.
Yeah, and this tells me acouple of things.
Number one is that you cannottake things just for granted.
You need, you know, analysis,you need research.
You need to put people everysingle day worried about what is

(48:53):
happening on the ground, howyour decision are informed and
all these things.
But nevertheless it also gaveyou a lesson that you have done
all these computing stuff.
You know you have doneprogramming, but now you are
here analyzing data.
You know writing, doneprogramming, but now you are
here analyzing data.
You know writing reports,working under pressure, because

(49:14):
I don't think if you guys likeeven from for that, you have
pressure to deliver at 7 whenthese people wake up.
What did you learn out of allthis?

you need to be very precise and
intentional you need to beintentional and very precise
Customers, don't?
So when a customer complains,you need to understand.
You need to understand theircomplaint.
Yeah.
To you it might be.
Ah, come on, I missed anarticle.
It was just one article out of50 that I give.
But, to them that one articlemeans so much to them.

(49:48):
It influence, it has businessmeans so much to them.
Yeah, it has business influence.

Attention to detail.
Attention to detail, you haveto be very precise.
Yeah.

I also learned to work hard.
Yeah.
So when I was in that company,I used to work with people that
have been in the company formore than five years and they
haven't been promoted Becauseand they did not mind.

I don't know why.
Or they just accepted theirfate and said you know what?

I have a place to be because when I got
there yeah, so the first thing Igot there as an admin person-
okay and I told myself I'm notgoing to be admin forever, yeah.
I went to my supervisor and Itold them I'm going to work hard
to prove to you that I'mcapable.

You're more than an admin.

Yes, but I'm more than admin.
She told me that you are thereason I'm able to take leave.
I can now take leave.
No, that was not a promotion.
Okay, I see I was doing her job,but I did not.
Yeah, you are, so it was.
I was doing her job, but I didnot have the title and and even
the pay and even the pay.

(50:55):
I will tell you how I sneakedinto the system.
I wanted so she was a very niceboss and I could understand the
dynamics that they had and thatit was not in her control.
Yes, she was white, she wasAfrikaner.
Yeah.
But she did not have control.

(51:16):
She everywhere where she couldplace me to be seen, she would
do it.
Yeah.
But she had no control of howleadership made up their mind.
You know, she would mention mein, in, in meetings, she would
mention me in places that werespeaking about growth yeah but
she had no influence over youknow, uh, what management does

(51:41):
about that yeah, so the best wecan do is I'm just gonna do your
job when you're not here.
You know so I so we can provethat the work can get done.
I ended up being the supervisorof around 20 more or 40 people,
so I was a supervisor of twodepartments, and these are

(52:04):
people older than me.

There are people that are 60.

Itumeleng Moagi Or (52:08):
60-year-olds that have been in the industry
for like 5 years, and I've onlybeen there for a year, but I was
able to know more than they did, and this was because I had a
thirst for technology thecuriosity why this is happening
how can we do things faster?
How can we move more?

(52:28):
How can we be more swift in?
our processes how can we movemore?
How can we be more swift in ourprocesses?
How can we be more efficientwithout draining ourselves?
How do we create a culturewhere people are able to express
themselves?
And I would get feedback fromthe people.
I'm supervising that, wow,since we are under your
leadership things are more fun.

Speaker 5 (52:49):
The pain might be the same.
The frust pain might be thesame.

Yeah, you know the frustrations might
be the same, because we're stillmonitoring, you know yeah but
we there's job security like wefeel.
We feel like we belong.

You come to work and you're not thinking
anything negative about yourboss and stuff like that and
that to me that was rewardingyeah, that was very, even beyond
the pay, even beyond the yes.

Yeah, yeah, you know was very
rewarding, even beyond the pay,even beyond the title yeah, you
know, and because I couldn't getthe pay I wanted and grow the
way I wanted, I then startedbuilding relationships with my
customers, nice.

Right Nice.

Because I need recognition, I need to be
known in the industry.
Yeah, right.
That if you want something done, dumi can get it done for you.
So that is how I also got someexposure.
Unfortunately, that company gotliquidated because of bad
leadership.
What?
Yes, it got liquidated.

When you were working there.
Yes, one year down the line.

It was two years.
Two years down the line, yeah,two and a half years.
There's no more company, nomore company.

So what do you do at this point?
It was too much pressure.

Going through liquidation?
Is you know when you find outabout liquidation?
Yeah.
Or the way we found out.
Yeah.
It was sudden.

I hope it's not in the news that you peruse
every no, no, no.

It was before Twitter got smarter you
know smarter than us.
Yeah, we just once had acompany meeting and they're like
yo, there's no money, we'reliquidating the company.
Wow.

Just like that.
Yeah, and you're in denial.
Right, you're like no no, no,maybe these are pulling our leg
and they're also soundinghopeful.

Oh, we, we're speaking to this bank and
this bank.
Maybe they will invest, andwhatnot.

And then you know, this is done.

You know it's not going to happen.
And now you're looking atunions.
Now there's unions coming toyou guys telling you oh, we can
help you get a severance package, we can help you with this,
with that, and you invest somuch of your energy into these
conversations, hoping to getsomething out of it and you
don't To me.
That reminded me of poverty.

(54:51):
What it reminded me?
That everything can be takenaway.
Everything can be taken awayfrom you, yes, and when you are
the most vulnerable, that's whenyou get now leeches coming to
you and saying I can change you.
I can change you, do this force,force yes everyone like let's
go left, let's go right, let'sgo up.
I remember we once went topretoria and we were waiting the

(55:14):
whole day for I don't know whofrom the union was supposed to
come and do what or update usabout when our packages are
coming out or what they had saidto management.
But I waited.
We waited there a lot of us,all blacks and nobody came, or
if they came, probably theydidn't give anything substantial

(55:36):
and I was like I'm not doingthis again.
I wasted a day where I couldhave been job hunting yes.

I do not do this and how far is it from what
was this?
Is this Cape Town or no?

no, no, this is Pretoria.
Pretoria and Joburg like 60, 60, 60 kilometers.

So that's like one hour, one hour drive.

Yes, and you're using public transport,
so it becomes more than an hour.
So it's like a Matatu to Joburgcan take you 45 minutes.
A Matatu to Pretoria will takeyou an hour and 10 minutes.

All these places are close by.
Yes.

If you drive, you get to Joburg in 20
minutes.
If you're driving to Pretoria,you get there in an hour or in
like 40 minutes it depends onhow you're driving.
I see yeah.
So, but because you're using amatatu trust me, it's going to
go through.

You have no control of how things are
happening here.

Yeah, so it takes you like two hours to
go and attend an empty meeting,and you know.
So that struggle just taught me.

Nah, I'm not going back to poverty.

And then one of the ladies that we used
to work with was like hey, Ijust spoke to some of my
contacts and I'm just going toopen my own media monitoring
company.
You want to come work for me?
I was like yeah, sure, yeah,went to work for her, why not?
Unfortunately, not,unfortunately, didn't work out
because, also, work culture is athing and, um, energies did not

(56:56):
match you know our work,culture was, was clashing yeah
so I left yeah and when I left Iwas like I'll start my own.
So I I got a business partner.
We started our own.
Actually, he was the ones onethat was like, hey, let's do
this.
So we did it and it was good,it was profitable.

What was this business?

It was media analysis as well Media
monitoring and analysis.
It was good, profitable.
I liked it.
I think to date it was still myfavorite business.
Because, I was young, I coulddo anything to explore.
I was hungry and I was angrybecause I don't want to go back
to poverty.

(57:38):
I had to cash out on all myinsurance to feed money into
this business, right?
Um?
Okay, the business didn'tdidn't work out, but not because
of lack of customers.
I had very good, lucrativecustomers and I would share a
little bit of what I learnedfrom one of my customers there
but it didn't work out becauseof again, you know, you need to

(58:02):
be careful when you start abusiness.
You need to choose yourfounders or your co-founders
carefully, because that affectsthe business, that affects the
growth of the business.
The vision I had for thebusiness was different to what
my business partner had at thetime.
And I was more tech focused.
I really yearned for tech.

(58:23):
This was the time where Twitterwas now becoming popular, where
you could find news on Twitterbefore press and stuff like that
and I was like no, no man, weneed to move.
Yeah, social media monitoringis now becoming a big thing it's
no longer just broadcast inprint yeah but then you know,
the person didn't believe thesame.
You know, um, and then I waslike yo, I'm out because I'm not

(58:45):
growing yeah, it's my ownbusiness, yeah it is my own
business.
I love it.
Yeah, I love it because I getto make my own money.
I'm my own boss.

Yeah, I get to hire people and we work together
and we enjoy working togetheryeah, but changing lives yes but
, it's not working out.

I'm not growing right.
Yes, I've got control, but I'mnot growing I went to true.
I went to my competitor.
I told him look.
I'm leaving.
I'm leaving.

That sounds funny, but it's not so you go to
your competitor to finish yourown business.
Thank you, guys.

No not to finish it.
Are you that pissed or no?
No, no, so, no, no, no.
You wanted to make a point it.
I went to my competitor and Itold them we're struggling with
social media monitoring.
You guys are doing good at itand we're good partner.
But then when I go back tocommunicate this to my business
partner, he's like what you wantus to work together with our

(59:43):
competitors oh, I see and I'mlike you know, there's a thing
called co-op petition.
You sign, there's a contract,you sign where there's certain
boundaries that your competitorcannot cross.

It's more of a partnership than a competition.
Yes, it's a partnership.

They cannot approach your customers,
you cannot approach theirs.
We do not poach each other'scustomers.
You know we work together.
We grow each other Like nope,not doing any of that.
Yeah.
But then.
So that's when I felt like it'snot going to work and another
thing that pushed me out of this, that showed me I was not going
to work.
We had a big customer I cannotmention names, right, but one of

(01:00:22):
the I cannot mention names-it's okay, yeah.
We had a big customer, like oneof the top agencies in South
Africa was our customer.
Yeah.
And so we were starting tounderperform.
Because now they're getting somuch coverage and we are limited

(01:00:43):
with staff and I can only do somuch, yeah Right, and we need
to upgrade our technology, and,and, and, and.
So they call me, they call meinto a boardroom.
Yeah.
My client, gavele is his name.
He grilled me, told me do me.
I know you can do this, but Icannot stay with you guys to

(01:01:07):
keep messing up.
I cannot keep convincing the CEOthat we need to continue with
you guys to keep messing up.
Yeah, I cannot keep convincingthe ceo that we need to continue
with you guys, because to her,she doesn't understand yeah if
this youngsters, if theseyoungsters are incompetent, find
another company, go hire awhite agency that has, that's
more organized.
That hurts me yeah because,first of all, this is my

(01:01:30):
competency we're talking aboutand my business.
I don't want to be seen asclumsy.
Yeah.
And I know what the customer istalking about, because I was
seeing the loopholes.
They were growing and we werenot growing with them.

Michael Kimathi (01:01:43):
Yeah.

Itumeleng Moagi Oriaku (01:01:44):
We were not growing with our customers.

We delivered so well.

We were running out of resources because
technology keeps evolving.
Technology keeps evolving.
Yes, we're doing things.
Our infrastructure was nowoutdated.
Yeah.
Right, we needed to invest andit would not have made sense for
me to seek for investment, topull back Because, again, my

(01:02:08):
vision and my co-founder'svision was not the same yeah you
get it.
Yeah, so we would be investinginto a mess.
Yeah, right, and now?
Because there's money involved,everyone's gonna have their own
desires for what they want forthe business, and if there's no
alignment, that's a clash Iwanted to cry in that boardroom.
My voice was shaky as I wastalking.

(01:02:30):
Tears were almost coming out ofmy eyes, but I knew I needed
that tough love.
When I left, my customer walkedout with me and he was like you
do understand that tough love.
I was like I get it.
And I appreciate it, and thatwas also how I knew I had to
leave, because I'm nowtarnishing my brand.

You're not going to take it anymore.

Exactly, and I'm tarnishing my own brand
.
Yeah.
You know, yeah.

My own professional brand is now
getting tarnished and they'rebuilt for some time, though.
Yes.

You know .
And then I went to mycompetitor.
I told them look, it's notworking out for me.
I know I'm the co-founder, butI'm not growing there.
And I told them you know allthe reasons why I feel I'm not
growing.
Yeah, um, and they didunderstand that I'm not sharing
information.
It was not malicious, it wasreally just to I was sharing

(01:03:21):
what I am going through, sharingmy vulnerabilities to make to
show them that I am honest.
You know, I'm honest and I wantto come work with you guys.
There's so much I'm going tolearn through you guys because
you are at a level that I wantmy company to reach, but I am
leaving.
The only condition was that,okay, I cannot work for them and

(01:03:42):
run the company of course, so Ileft.
I left.

What was the name of the company?

It was Media Savvy.
Okay, yeah, it was Media.

Savvy Okay yeah , it was Media Savvy, yeah, yeah
.

And I started working for my
competitor Awesome.

It was awesome they were more accommodating,
more supportive.
Oh, it was Welcoming new ideas.

And that is where I also understood
partnerships.
Yeah.
And cooperation.
Yeah.
Understood that my competitor isnot my enemy.
My competitor is my partner andif I build a good relationship
with you, we are growingtogether and we've come to a
point where, even when we wereapplying for tenders, we speak
to our partners.
Okay, you apply for broadcastand this I'm going to apply for

(01:04:27):
online.
Yes, if I get it, if you get it, if you get it, you'll get
online from me.
If you don't, if you get the,if you get you know your
contract, you'll get this fromme.

Yeah, we both gain and you win yeah, we win
yeah seriously.

So that that's what I learned, and, um,
I didn't last.
I told them, though, when Ijoined them, that I'm only
joining you guys to learn so I'mgoing to last for a year.

I cannot make it more than a year.
Yeah, and they were okay withthat.
They understood okay theythought I was lying so that you
come love it and you know yeahthey thought it was oh no,
you're going to stay.

You're definitely going to stay longer,
but I longer.
But I only lasted for a yearand then I applied for a tech
program MEST in Ghana and I gotthrough.
And then I moved to Ghana,because then there was, and I
told them, I've got a thirst fortech.

I've got this curiosity for technology.
Which year was this?

This was 2007.
I've got a thirst fortechnology.

I'm in 2017.

And I'm going to move to Ghana.
I've got a thirst fortechnology.

I'm in 2017.
Oh, 2017.

Yeah, and I'm going to move to Ghana.
I've got a scholarship and I'mgoing to go there and study,
advance my knowledge abouttechnology and business.
Yeah.
And hopefully I come back andI'm able to start my own company
again.
Yeah.
Then I went to MEST after a year.
That's when we co-foundedInvoicia and so what we do at

(01:05:56):
Invoicia we provide access toworking capital.
So customers, let's say you'remy customer and you pay me after
30 days after I've delivered aservice and you have other
customers that you need to serve.
But because you've got thisbulk of money locked with me and
if you wait 30 days, you'regoing to lose you know, with

(01:06:16):
your next supply, yeah, we giveyou we advance you a loan
against your invoice so that youcan go on with other business
and then, when your customerpays, when your customer pays
you're able to pay.

You're able to pay back.

Yes, yeah right, so that that's
that's the interest involved.
Yes, yeah so, um it's it, weused to charge like five percent
interest right on on yourinvoice.
Yes so um, and, and that worksdid you?

did you have like upper bound, lower bound,
that you can't ask more thanthese?

When we started we didn't, and that
created a problem.
Yeah, of course you know once abusiness comes and they get
$10,000, and now because they'regrowing.
The one thing I love aboutInvoice here was that our
customers were growing so fast,but then that was a problem as

(01:07:10):
well yeah, because you don'thave like, yes, liquidity,
liquidity, yeah and what we do.
We outsourced funds from ourinvestors for us to be able to,
for, uh, to lend to to thosesmes and um.
So now a business would comefor two thousand dollars, three
and three and then five, andthen, because they keep growing,

(01:07:32):
10, 20, look, we can't give youmore.
You know we also are out ofresources.
And another thing credit is avery sensitive topic in Ghana.

It's not as well structured.
Oh, this is only happening inGhana.
Yeah, Invocia is based in Ghana.

And then we had to change the narrative
a bit, because now we needed tode-risk this wonderful solution.
Yeah.
As much as we're saving.
You know like we saved a lot ofbusinesses, especially through
COVID.
Yeah.
Through COVID, we helpedbusinesses predict what was
coming and we were able to findunique ways to give out loans.

(01:08:15):
We also tried giving out loansto your mom and pop shops,
because they had more demandduring COVID than the bigger
stores and unfortunately financecomes with education and the
smaller stores.
Sometimes they don't want togive the money back.

True, true, you know.
So they have all the excusesthat you can look for to pay
back.
Yes, yes, you know.

so that trial didn't go so well.
But with the bigger companieswe were able to get a chunk of
our cash back.
Okay, but then we knew that toget a chunk of our cash back.
But then we knew that this wasa risk.
The money I lose means that I'mlosing an investor, right,
because now the investorconfidence is also dropping and
now we're partnering with banks.

We give the technology to the bank, so you
don't deal with the customersdirectly.

We don't want to deal with the customers
directly anymore, so you don'tdeal with the customers directly
.
We don't want to deal with thecustomers directly anymore.
So how we work is now either wefind a financier that takes all
the risk and funnels theirmoney through Invoice so it
would be the financialinstitution that will be lending
using our platform, and then wejust do the monitoring and the

(01:09:28):
analysis for them, the loangeneration and stuff, the
overall process.

Yeah, and when did you figure out?
You know this is not working.
You know as much as goodwell-intended.
You make losses, the investorsare leaving.

Yeah, it was when we picked up that it's
too risky.
It's too risky.
And again it's too risky.
It's too risky, and again itcomes with growth.

And which year was this in the business 2020.

So that was like three years down the
line, so Invoice is stillrunning.

But you're pivoting how you are carrying
out business.

So now we're pivoting, and because it's
now more tech, I don't need tobe on the ground anymore in
ghana I don't need to be our.
Our clients are more b2b, andcovid exposed that we can
actually hold a meeting remotely, close a deal remotely.
If I have to fly down to gosign a contract, that's what I
did last year yeah went to flydown to sign a contract.

(01:10:27):
I'll do that, yeah, but thenotherwise everything is done
remotely.
Now we're engaging with banks,we're engaging with the
regulators and such, and nowthat's another challenge.
Some countries' regulators arestricter than others.

Some are not so structured.

It comes with entrepreneurship, oh gosh
the stress, the stress, so forme it felt like I needed to find
myself again as much as likeInvoicia worked.
It was.
Invoicia is my favorite problemto solve.

(01:11:05):
Anything that promises survivalfor businesses, right, we?
There are so many businessesthat we saved, especially
through covid and that means somuch to me yeah that means so
much to me because through uhduring covid, people lost their
partners lost their incomes, youknow um, and they had to start

(01:11:25):
shops.
They had to open up shops, theindustries, those industries
that you thought were lucrative,like our biggest customer
before COVID was the tourismindustry and that was from
whatever to zero.
To zero, absolute zero, and ourbiggest customer became mining.

There was a point where gold and oil, you
know, were and this is in Ghana,or in ghana, or in south africa
, in ghana, okay, in ghana.

This was all in ghana yeah and um.
So during that, during thecovid period, I was like okay
first of all we need to de-riskthe business, yeah, and if we're
going to go completely intosoftware, yeah.
It gives me more time on myhands.
Now most of the work goes tothe devs, the partnerships and
stuff I could do remotely.

(01:12:14):
But I also felt overwhelmedbecause imagine three years of
running a business right andhaven't really taken a break,
haven't really taken a breather.

The partnership is hard.
Yes, it is hard, it's hard work.
Sometimes people work withoutpay.
You're putting your best footforward.

Yes.

You make sure everyone else is paid Trust me.
And you don't get paid.

I was surviving.
Yeah.
And I will expose myself.
Yeah.
I was surviving on $500 a month.
Yeah, and I have a kid in.

South Africa.
Oh, oh, but this time you'vehad a child, yes, okay I have.

Yes, so when I went to ghana, I really
had my child okay right and hewas three when I left oh, I see
when I came back, he was sevenyeah so I have all that long.

Yes, who stayed with your boy?

my parents.
I had to because, you see, yeah, um, as much as I loved working
at my competitor right, I wasnot earning enough to build the
kind of future I wanted for myson.
Yeah.
And the only way for me to getthat is to really get into tech.
Yeah.
And I got that opportunitythrough MEST.

Yeah, so you had to make that hard decision
it was a very difficult one.
Yeah.

Even at MEST they asked me are you ready
to part with yourthree-year-old?
Yeah.
And I told them I don't have achoice.
Yeah.
If you know my history, youwould know I don't have a choice
.
Yeah.
You know, yeah.
And yeah, I'm ready to go.

You're going hard, you putting your best foot
forward, which actually, I'msure for ladies you know who
really get into the business,they need to understand.

It's not easy, it's not Neither is it
easy to work for someoneEmotionally.
So there's nothing easyEmotionally.

Yeah.

Mentally .

Yeah.
Physically.

Yeah, it is not easy, yeah.

Now, at what point?
Now do you just say you live,you're living in Ghana, ghana,
you know this can be doneremotely.
Now I'm going back to SouthAfrica.
What is that that you had inmind by the time you're going to
South Africa?

so I okay.
So with me.
I felt a bit um oppressed bythe by by the environment, right
um the fact that in Ghana wewere not getting the

(01:14:42):
opportunities we could havegotten if we were running in a
different market.
So you feel like South Africais more well placed for this,
even if we come to South Africatoday, even if we come to Kenya,
because I was also looking atpartnerships- in.

Kenya, we would grow faster than what we did in
Ghana 10 times, 20 times 5times 10 times more than what we
are doing.
So the market there was notthat receptive for this idea.

No, because credit is not respected.
Ah, you know.

I see.

One of our biggest customers and that
we had loaned close to like$30,000,.
They delayed with with paymentand and what they said to us was
but why are you guys pressuringus?
I'll pay you.
I'm like you do know.
We have investors that arewaiting for their returns and
their principles yeah it's like,yeah, but I don't, I use the

(01:15:38):
money for something else, I'llpay you guys.
So that to me, yes.
So that was why it was soimportant to de-risk.
It's important to de-risk yourbusiness.
Lending is, trust me.
There's a reason why the banksand I'm saying this with caution
and all due respect there's areason why the banks are so

(01:15:58):
cautious yeah with lending yeahto be unbanked and stuff if they
don't have data about you.
It's hard to trace you.
Yeah, when you when, whenthings are tough oh yeah do you
understand, because people likethe the attitude that you come
to me when you ask for moneyit's different when it's time

(01:16:19):
for you to pay me.
Now I'm the one begging you,Masa, please beg Pay me.

Are you saying that Africans need to change the
way?
Maybe they trade it?
Yes, they should look at it asan investment Actually you can
take the money put it into gooduse and also pay it and grow,
because if you and I've seeneven banks, I know big uh like
fortune 500 companies that havebeen built with credit?
Yes, right, yes, so it's doablepeople build wealth on credit

(01:16:49):
do you think we need moreeducation?

on those lines.
We do so, yeah, okay maybe weshould do a session around that
so um but not right now, ofcourse yeah, my financial
advisor used to tell me that, um, mostly, or my then financial
advisor when I had one.
He used to say that mostlyblack people get dumb credit

(01:17:13):
what's that?
So you can buy food on credit.
You can buy a car on credit.
You can buy clothes on credit,so I can wear this li on credit.

You can buy clothes on credit Liabilities.

Yes, I can wear this for six months and
still be paying for it 20 randsevery month and by the time
you're done, it's worn out, it'sno longer.
By the time I'm done eating myfood.
I have debt I have to go pay,you know.

Yeah, so there's no much value in that
credit.
There's no value in that credit.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Yes, and that is how you start building
a negative relationship withthat credit.
And you also become being areckless.
I mean, you become a recklessspender Because you don't know
the value of credit.
Meanwhile and this used tohappen in SA, where credit rates

(01:18:01):
for blacks and whites aredifferent- Right.
So the whites would get aparticular rate or they would
get access to particular creditlike housing and stuff, and the
blacks wouldn't.
So we get all the dumb stufflike oh, you can buy a car on
credit, you can do this all theliability.
And when it comes to property,there's so much you have to do

(01:18:26):
to prove that you can affordthat you are able to pay back,
that you are trustworthy andit's not the same you know for
the race.
So those are the things that youknow.
The regulators them are tryingto fight, yeah.

But actually this even needs to be approached
in a way like also there isinjustice if you think about it,
but as much as that is therebecause you know right now.
Whatever you know, strategiesthat you put in, they need to be
smarter than what actually hasbeen set for you, because it's
all a setup if you think aboutit.
So maybe there needs to be moreopen education, like look, you

(01:19:06):
can start from here and that'sthe way you'll be able to say
you know what.
Look, this is injustice and youcan be able to address it.
Yes.
So you just decide this one istoo much.

So not that it's too much, but I'm not
growing in this market so for meI felt stagnant.
Like I was telling you I, myincome was five hundred dollars
yeah my child is growing yeah hewas now moving from
kindergarten to primary schoolyeah right, yeah, um, he needs
uniforms, he needs a propereducation and he's getting older

(01:19:42):
.
I cannot be stuck in a marketthat does not want to grow with
me yeah, right yeah, so the bestthing for me is to just go home
.
I'm gonna go home.
I'm gonna start afresh.
Right, I've built a rapport nowyeah well, I've built a
portfolio for myself and I'msure I can get something good
when I get home, Because now Ineeded to work in reverse the

(01:20:06):
same selfishness that I tookwhen I was leaving South Africa
to go to Ghana, when I left myfamily and my son, my parents
and my son with my parents to goto.
Ghana, I had to do the samething.
Now I'm leaving the investmentI thought I made and I was it
hurt.
It hurt because I left my son.
No, I left my son.

(01:20:27):
I told him I'm going to bring,I'm going to build a better
future for us.
So for me to make the decisionto leave my day-to-day running
off in Voisia and come back toSouth Africa, it felt like I had
failed and we need tocommunicate this as co-founders
and as entrepreneurs in Africathat we are afraid of failing

(01:20:52):
from our businesses becausepeople will think I'm a failure.
But now I had to do the reverseand be selfish and be, like
whatever dream I had here.
I tried yeah.
I tried to build it yeah and itdid not come out as well as I
thought it would yeah now I haveto go home and apologize to my
son for not bringing the futureI thought we would have.

(01:21:15):
Mommy is not coming back as theCEOo or the see what you know,
the, the, this, whatever seasuit of this successful company
that we wanted to raise funding.
And, you know, become big andtake over africa.
Yeah, I can't achieve that.
Yeah, to go home and I have toapologize to my son for not

(01:21:37):
doing yeah, I left you for fouryears and I did not make it what
Right?
Yeah.
But I was not giving up.
Yeah.
I knew that my apology has tocome with a backup plan.
Yes, yes.
And a friend of mine saw a postAfrica's Talking hiring for a
country manager in South Africaand he was like this description

(01:22:00):
is you?
This is so you and I appliedand went through a series of
interviews and, because of thetime difference, I'd be taking
my interviews at 4 am in Ghana.
What?

4 am, 5 am, but you said I'm not in South
Africa, but I'm planning to goback there.

Yes, I told them and I made it very
clear and transparent that.
I am a co-founder, but I'm notdoing day-to-day running of
Invoice here anymore, so myenergy will be now focused on,
you know, building this newleague of my career now.
You know I'm no longer aco-founder and the chief

(01:22:39):
operations officer.
I'm now longer a co-founder andthe chief operations officer.
I'm now coming as an employeeand you know we had to talk the
people that were hiring me atthe time.
We had to talk.
Are you ready for this?
Because now you're going to bean employee?
Yeah, and the one thing I likeabout the Africa's Talking
culture is, in a way, nobodytells you what to do.

(01:23:03):
True, true, right.
You are still allowed to be inyour own playground and do stuff
to some maximum capacity.
As long as resources areavailable, you are able to push
through push through and becauseof the culture at 80, it was
the break I needed, the mentalbreak I needed from the pressure

(01:23:26):
, the hustle, the tension ofbeing an entrepreneur, Because
being an entrepreneur isglamorous on the outside dark on
the inside.
There's so much that weighs onyou.
You know that $500 I used toearn it paid for my child's
school fees and his clothes andfeeding back home my feeding in

(01:23:50):
Ghana.

You have to hustle.

Rental in Ghana.
That's only $500.
Yeah, do you get it Like it'snot enough Some days?

you don't even have food over the weekend.

Some days we'd attend hackathons for
free meals.
What Nobody knows this.

And these are co-founders.

We are co-founders Do you understand.

Show some love to these guys.
And nobody knew this.

And maybe it was not even the same
situation with my co-founders,but I know that we had a
community where you know yourpeople like there's a free event
, there's food, is there food?
Yes, let's go, we're going toeat and stuff and we get free
t-shirts.

so I ended up wearing free t-shirts most of
the time, so you didn't need theclothes.

Yeah, I didn't need to buy to shop
because I'm in a techenvironment, right?

uh, we're all wearing so you're saying this
swag goes a long way, to likebuild the ecosystem, right guys
in the ecosystem, swag mattersswag matters.

Swag is important.
Swag is what made me look likegirl is not suffering you know
because I'm like I'm wearing aFor Loop t-shirt I'm wearing
this hackathons t-shirt, thisand this.
You know, and people recognizeyou also for that, like it's,
like the brand association.
People recognize you.
People see that, okay, you'redoing this, you're doing that,

(01:25:12):
you know, and they want to knowwhat you guys are doing.
You know what does this meanfor you to be at this event and
you, you know what does thismean for you to be at this event
.
And you're networking, yeah,you're building relationships.
So, anyway, got the job at 80and you know, um, yeah, I love

(01:25:33):
what I do.
I really love building.
Um, I mean, you, you are, youare cutthroat, you are the
killer at what you do.
You know, uh, um m, you reallyare good at community building.
Thank you so much, jimmy,you're so kind.
But this is what I want to ask.

You'll get there.
How good I am, that's a storyfor another day, but anyway.
So there's something that isfascinating that is happening in
South Africa.
Even after interacting with you, I'm really impressed.
There are a couple of blackdevelopers.
People are intentionally likewe want to build this.
There are people like StartupNation there are.
Mitchells of the day, people whoare intentionally building this

(01:26:09):
ecosystem from scratch.
What do you think or what doyou think can be done to make
sure that these are propelled tothe right levels whereby, if
Amazon is hiring, they competeequally?
If we are building startups, webuild scalable startups,
Because I feel like, as much asthere's all these tech giants

(01:26:30):
and everything that is happening, we need African solutions that
are solving African problemslike what you guys are trying to
do Amazon, Google, Facebook nowthey have to downsize, you know
yes because they've umoverhired yes, we are.

Who are getting fired first of course,
of course, it's obvious yeah,office was closed.

Sorry, guys, if you listen to this, maybe 2011,
2100 years.
Uh, once upon a time, twitteropened Ghana office, the first
one in Africa, and now that itwas acquired by our African from
.
South Africa Elon.
Musk.
He decided you know what I'mcutting and I don't blame him.
Maybe it's a strategy that Ineed to cut some workforce that

(01:27:15):
I don't feel like they'rebringing value to the company.
But unfortunately, our newGhana office we're calling it
Africa Twitter office was thefirst one that was supposed to
be closed completely by 1stDecember 2022.
So can you imagine An officethat was opened by the Ghanaian

(01:27:35):
president.
By this time, if you listen tothis and you are one Africa, you
used to have 54 countries withboundaries and different
presidents.

I want to put that in context, because
I feel like I want us to touchon that actually, especially
when it comes to you Exactly, soyou know the president opened
his office.

Yeah, it was so pride moment for Ghana and
Ghana ecosystem, but it'sgetting closed.
Yeah, yeah.
It's sad.

So yeah please, by all means.
The question here was about nowwhat is needed.
Yeah, you asked what is neededin the South African market and
I want to answer it more in acontext.

Yeah, yeah, for sure, because what works in
South Africa, I can assure youit will work in 54 countries.
If they replicate, it can workand there's one good thing that
happened that I'll shareafterwards, if you don't mention
it.

Oh, I love good news.
Okay, so, and yes, I was sayingthat.
You know, the big three that wementioned are now downsizing,
right, and what we need aresolutions, like you said, for
Africa.
Yeah.

(01:28:46):
Solutions that address Africa'sproblems.
Yeah, and these are supposed tobe built by us, the Africans.
The Africans yes, because welook, if I'm going to build a
solution about credit, it isbecause I have built a business
that suffered with money.
Yeah, and I know how.

(01:29:07):
I know the frustration of mycustomer.
Yeah.
And you work best when youunderstand the problem.
Yeah For AT to come about.
They understand the problem ofthe developer.

In 2G.

In 2G yes.

Because when AT was building there was no 3G,
there was no prospectus ofgetting these networks In 2G.
To understand.

So we understand our own problems and
only we can solve it the bestway that is required, using the
resources that are needed, rightso what the ecosystem requires,
we need to empower the devs.
Yeah.
We need to make sure resourcesare available for the devs?
Yeah, and this is done tocommunities Right.

(01:29:51):
Yeah.
We don't have us as communitymanagers.
We don't have the answers.
Yeah.
Do you understand?
Yeah, I get it.
We do not have everything in agift pack, yeah right, but if we
build a community, then we'rebuilding a network yes, if you
need this resource, speak tothis person.
If you need this finance, here'sa link to whatever investor or

(01:30:14):
an ngo or whatever that's youknow, helping you raise a grant
or something.
Because developers are part ofa startup's ecosystem.
They're the people that build asolution right, and for a
solution to come to market, itneeds marketers, it needs

(01:30:35):
business developers.
So that means you need atechnical head, you need a
business thinker, you needsomeone.
You need a technical head, youneed a business thinker, you
need someone that's good withmarketing.
You need different resourcesfor you to be able to get your
technology out there.
I cannot just bring a developerand say give me a kick-ass
solution and then, if we don'troll it out properly in the

(01:30:59):
market, it's dead.

If it doesn't scale, it's dying, it's dead.
Yeah, you know yeah.

Exactly so.
It's an ecosystem.
That is what developers need.
That is what we need, yeah, andthat is why it might not work
for your Amazons and stuff,because they have everything.
They have money, yeah, theyhave talent.
Yeah they have money, they havetalent, but they don't have the
African blood.
Do you know what I mean?

they do not have the African thirst and also
they don't understand what ourproblems are.

Yes, so, and if you're gonna, so, yes,
it's obviously awesome to behired by you know the get hired.

I have my own you know reserved opinion about
that, for whatever reason, yeah.
So any opportunity that youtake, I'm not saying don't work
for anyone.
No, please, by all means if youqualify, do so.
Yes, there's no one who justlands in isolation.
It's a global economy anyway.
So even if you know they shipyou whatever they will ship you
to work, please by all meansjust know those kids are needed

(01:32:03):
at the end of the day and if youfeel, by the way, like settling
there, please don't feel guilty.

Do not by all means.
There should be no guilt.

Everyone has to win and make your own personal
decision.
But what you're saying is,africa will still exist.
There's 1 billion people.
They're underserved indifferent levels and that's a
market that is ready for you.

Exactly, and that is why, when we host
hackathons, that is why, whenwe're looking at partners, we're
looking at your Amazons.
They have the money, they havethe resources, we have the
talent.
Yes, do you get it?
Yes?
We know the problems and that iswhy that partnership is
required.
We know the problems and thatis why that partnership is
required For sure.
Do you understand?

(01:32:41):
So what Africa, what SouthAfrica needs is to build an
ecosystem, because no man is asilo, no man is an island, and
it should not be that way, andthat is why I like tech.
We are a community.
Developers are such a community.

They always work together and they're always
looking at ways in which theyhelp each other grow and the
entry level.
Actually, I would say it'saffordable.

It is.

You need a laptop and a working computer.
Look, I mean a working internetwhen things are tough.

If things are really tough.
People even code on their phone.
Absolutely.
They will tell you.
I learnt how to code.
I used my phone.
You know, Look like we needresources where we take away
such stuff, where we give, we'reable to give people phones.
I mean um laptops yeah to beable to, to learn how to code,

(01:33:30):
to expose them to businessincubators, so that, beyond just
typing, yeah we actually have aproject that you're working on
and that can go to market andthat is why you and again, I'm
not trying to sell at here butthat is that is why we're
building this community right,because we we want to have a

(01:33:51):
full circle where, when adeveloper comes in, they're like
guys, I don't know how to code,but I have interest.
Come to our hackathons.
When you find a laptop, ifwe're not at the stage where
we're able to provide it for you, then you make means, you get a
laptop, you learn, you build aproduct.

(01:34:14):
We give you resources.
You know we now have a startup,a startup pack, so we give you
resources, affordable and nextto nothing.
And you're able to reach amarket yes, You're able to test
and reach a market and if you'reready to scale, you're ready to
be serving the rest of Africa.
For sure, you know and now asto what Africa needs borderless,

(01:34:37):
it doesn't make sense right, itmight not make sense to many,
but we need borderless.
It doesn't make sense.
It might not make sense to many.
But we need borderless.

It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't it doesn't matter how
you look at it.

From up there down here, from the waters.
It doesn't make sense and thisis good news that I think we're
heading to the right place, butwe're taking some time.
I think when this African Unionthe right place, but you're
taking some time.
I think you know when this, youknow, africa Union meets, I
feel like one of the things thatthey can do, maybe even if they
want to spend a week there, todeliberate and come with one

(01:35:09):
solution that remove water.
Yeah.
We don't care.
If you know, maybe the poornations come the rich nations,
it's workforce, you know, at theend of the day, of course
someone will lose a little bituntil someone gets to where they
are, but over time we'll thriveall together at once.
And what South Africa did?

(01:35:30):
Because for a Kenyan to go toSouth Africa you needed to take
I don't know the visa used totake two weeks.
Sometimes you're denied and allthat.
And these two presidents sat andsaid you know what?
Most of the you know planesflying to Kenya, they're most
South Africans, because forKenya, actually any person from,
I think, 54 countries if I'mnot wrong.

(01:35:52):
Maybe you can check that laterthey can just come in and get,
worst case scenario, get visa onarrival.
Which actually makes it morecloser than any other country.
I don't see why a country inAfrica or another African
citizen, whichever country theycome from, a visa.

For what reason, I don't know.
I also don't see it.

It's not like the biggest revenue generator it
doesn't even make sense.

I'm not sure if is it because our
countries are not ready formigration, but it's natural,
yeah migration is a naturalthing, absolutely so.
Are we still holding on to tovisas because we're not ready
for migration?
I'm really not sure, but yeah,yeah it's time for us to open up
.
We've also just rolled out thethe africa free trade agreement.

(01:36:37):
You know that requires, knowthat requires openness.

Absolutely.
That requires openness.

You know the technology.
If we're going to look intoadvancing technology for Africa,
things like visas are notrequired.

And now they're looking at e-visas.
I don't know if it's you Ishare this with, but I think
this with.
But I think in 50, 70 years, ifyou're still requiring people
to get a visa to come to yourcountry, it doesn't matter if
it's Africa or otherwise.
No, it's something someonewould be asking is it really
worth it?
Exactly, I'd rather go to adifferent country, yeah, but

(01:37:16):
Africans, please Africanpresident, you have this on your
court and also Africans,because now, like in South
Africa, you don't need a visa togo in.
I don't know.
Five countries or so, and nowEthiopia, actually for the
longest Kenyans don't require avisa to go there, but there are
some countries you arrive andthey make the process as complex

(01:37:37):
as someone who required a visa.
So I'm like you guys chooseyour struggles.
Do you want people to get visaor not?
If you choose not to get visa,treat them like these country
citizens, because at the end ofthe day, mostly and I'll speak
to myself, most people who cometo your country they're bringing
opportunity Number one if I'min your country, I'll spend
money, and that alone means I'mbringing resources.

Exactly.

If you treat me well, I'll even spend more
money.
So let's think about it, andmaybe I know there are more
complex things than meet thehigh, but I'm sure there's
nothing that cannot be dealtwith.
It has been done before.
There are countries that haveboundaries or still have
boundaries, but they have a wayof recognizing that these people
come from the same continentand it works for them.

(01:38:21):
Why are we so adamant aboutboundaries?

I'm just exactly, that's what.
I'm asking Are we not ready formigration?
Why are we not?
Because migration is natural.
It's something that's beenhappening for generations.

Yeah, and anyone who is doubting this, let
me give them a perspective Guys, internet does not have
boundaries.
Yeah, and anyone who isdoubting this, let me give them
a perspective.
Guys, internet does not haveboundaries.

Exactly.

And that's what has changed the world.

Yes.

If you want to change the world, be like
internet.
Exactly To me, what's yourparting shot?

I would say this is interesting Build
communities.
Yeah, you know, yeah, buildrelationships around.
This is interesting.
Build communities, you know.
Build relationships around whatyou want to achieve, because no
man is an island, for sure, youknow, and let's not pressure
ourselves with unnecessarycompetition.
We're not going to get far ifwe continue to compete.

(01:39:15):
Yeah, yeah.

Mrs Oriyaku, can I call you that?

yes.

Mrs.
Oriyaku.
Thank you so much for gracingour show, and this is just a
start.
You know we are coming to SouthAfrica.

Of course I'm excited.

And there's more we need to do, because I
feel like we should be tellingour own stories.
We should be authentic, weshould be raw, we should be like
you know, if someone listenedto us, they'd say those are
Africans.
I can relate to those guys.
It's not something that is, youknow, being shaped, look like
you know.
We're trying to be likeso-and-so, sound like so-and-so
and even also clear some of ourchildhood trauma, you know we

(01:39:53):
had to sound a certain way, wehave our own right now.
Right now, swahili is the widelyspoken language in Africa,
right?
Yes, so there are several otherthings that actually us, at
this particular point, canactually contribute to this and
more, without further ado.
Yeah, it's been awesome.

(01:40:15):
And again, this is ImpactMasters Podcasts, brought to you
by Impact Masters Media andAfrica's Talking Podcasts, and
our awesome guest has been TomiMuhagi or, if you want, mrs

(01:40:36):
Oryaku.
One lady in your lifetime youneed to meet for sure, and we
keep telling our African storieseach and every day.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Until next time, see you.

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#30 - Itumeleng Moagi

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