March 27, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Dan Coughlin, an expert in digital marketing and accidental agency owner. We explore the evolving landscape of influencer marketing and how businesses can leverage it effectively.
Dan shares his journey from observing his wife's success as a micro-influencer to managing a thriving agency specializing in influencer partnerships. We discuss:
The Changing Face of Digital Marketing
- How consumers are becoming savvier to traditional advertising
- The growing importance of authenticity in marketing campaigns
- Why AI can't replace human creativity in content creation
Demystifying Influencer Marketing
- The different levels of influencers, from content creators to celebrities
- Why micro and mid-tier influencers often offer better ROI than mega-influencers
- The value of niche, engaged audiences over raw follower counts
Getting Started with Influencer Partnerships
- The "crawl, walk, run" approach for businesses new to influencer marketing
- How to calculate fair compensation for influencers (hint: it's not an exact science)
- The importance of authenticity and genuine product enthusiasm
Key Takeaways for Marketers
- Why storytelling is crucial in influencer partnerships
- The value of data-driven decision making in marketing campaigns
- How to approach marketing with a "poker player" mindset
Whether you're a small business owner curious about influencer marketing or a seasoned marketer looking to refine your strategy, this episode offers valuable insights into harnessing the power of authentic partnerships in the digital age.
Are you ready to explore how influencer marketing could transform your business? Tune in to learn how to navigate this exciting and ever-changing landscape.
Connect with Dan:
Website: gethypedmedia.com
LinkedIn:linkedin.com/in/daniellcoughlin/
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
Watch here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back to theImperfect Marketing Podcast.
(00:27):
I'm your host, kendra Korman,and today I am joined by Dan
Coughlin, who is an expert indigital marketing.
So thanks so much for joiningme today.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself and how you
got into digital marketing?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, kendra, thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
So my background is a littlecomplex.
I mean, whose background isn't?
But I'm what you call, like anaccidental agency owner actually
an accidental marketer as well.
I didn't set out my career pathto be marketing, but here we are
.
But long story short, back inlike 2017, my wife started an
Instagram page and she startedposting like healthy baking
(01:04):
recipes so think about likegluten-free brownies and coconut
sugar cookies and things likethat because that was her
passion and she grew herInstagram page from scratch from
to about 25,000 followers so agood size micro influencer in
just under a year.
So I got to experience whatit's like behind the scenes to
(01:25):
be a content creator, how hardit is to grow an audience.
To maintain it.
It's a full-time job.
So my wife started getting alittle burnt out with being an
influencer.
She started getting some branddeals and things like that.
It started turning into more ofa job than a passion and a
couple brands that she wasworking with asked her for help
(01:45):
with their creator partnerships.
And that's how Get Hyped.
Our agency was born.
We started as an influencermarketing specialist agency and
over the past seven years, we'veblown up to now using content
creators and influencers to helpbusinesses add reoccurring
revenue, how to use influencersto really monetize.
So that's our specialty, amongother digital marketing things.
(02:07):
But the way I got involved wasthat when my wife started to get
burnt out by running the agencyherself after a couple of years
of doing it, and so I steppedin as managing director.
She's still involved.
She still owns the company, butI manage the day to day.
So for five years I've beendoing influencer, paid media,
email marketing, like a lot ofdifferent digital marketing
(02:28):
channels that support usingcontent creators in a business's
holistic marketing strategy.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Very cool.
Okay, so I have to ask apersonal question and you can.
You don't have to answer if youdon't want to.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I love personal questions.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So how is it working with your wife?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Very challenging.
I'll say that you know you haveto have some kinds of lines of
separation between business andwhen business is over it's tough
to stop talking about businesshonestly.
That's kind of why we have theroles the way we are, so we do
different things within thecompany.
I'm managing the kind of day today and she's more of a silent
(03:04):
partner, owner behind the scenesthese days and that works out
really well for us because it'snot for the weak right.
You got to have a strongrelationship and you have to
have clear lines of separationthere.
That's my recommendation ifanyone's thinking about going
into business with their partner.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yes, my husband has been helping me out lately in my
business and so just happens tobe very top of mind.
So I'm like how's that going?
He doesn't always like workingfor me, so I get that.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
It strengthens the relationship and it challenges
the relationship.
I mean I have, I have two youngkids as well.
Or I say we should, we have twoyoung kids as well, and you
know we call the business ourthird child all the time, you
know.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So yeah, very cool.
Thank you for sharing that.
Ok, so let's get back on adigital marketing.
What are, what are things thatyou're seeing right now?
What?
What's trending?
What's happening?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, the thing that's at the top of my mind
from day to day is just that thedigital consumer is just
becoming more savvy toadvertising.
Right, and this falls under,you know, traditional digital
ads, where you talk about Google, facebook, whatever, and then
if you use content creators andyou amplify their content and
turn their content into ads aswell, it's just not as simple as
(04:18):
it used to be of, oh, let mejust find an influencer and have
them talk about my products, orlet me just throw some ads up
and I'll get three X ROI orgreater pretty easily, like.
It's becoming more challenging,right.
So what that means, as asmarketers, is is we have to be
more creative, and I think wehave to think of new ideas and
really go more.
This is kind of an overused wordthese days in digital marketing
(04:38):
, but authenticity, right, weneed to.
You just can't slap an adtogether and expect it to do
well when it seems like it's notcoming from the heart, right.
Which is why I really loveinfluencer marketing and the
whole creator economy, becausewhen, when, done right creators,
when they love a product or aservice, it is authentic, it is
(04:59):
coming from the heart, and thenthe audiences respond to that
accordingly.
So that's what I really loveabout the trend that we're going
down is, in the social mediaworld, which I live in,
especially when platforms likeTikTok, consumers are savvier
than ever.
They can smell an advertisementfrom a mile away and you'll get
called out on it if it's poor.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, well, and I think again, I think that that
talking about doing things new,doing them different, being
authentic I'm a big fan of AI,and I think that that's where AI
falls short, right, so that'swhat's going to keep us in our
jobs for a while longer is thatit can't come up with that new
(05:38):
and authentic thing, right,unless you give it to it.
It can help you speed up thecontent creation process, but
it's not going to create it foryou, and I think that that's
just just really interestingwith what's going on right now.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I couldn't agree more .
I tell everyone AI is a tool.
I'm kind of getting tiredmyself of the discussion of like
is AI good or bad?
Do you use AI or do you don'tuse AI?
It's like it's not a black andwhite thing.
Right, it's a tool that you canuse to do things easier and
more efficient and better.
Right.
(06:13):
But if you don't use the toolcorrectly, the output is going
to be poor.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Exactly, exactly.
So you're talking a lot aboutinfluencer marketing and how if
it's authentically done and welldone and embedded into brands.
So I was the Jeep advertisingmanager a long time ago and we
were, we had influencermarketing and we sponsored Tony
Hawk and Sean White and you knowa little bit different than
(06:39):
what it is today and I know youthink even back then Doritos was
doing like a build your ownSuper Bowl commercial or
something like that.
But there's a differencebetween that and what you're
talking about.
I mean, your wife had twentyfive000 followers and she was
determined to be an influencerin the space that she was in.
(06:59):
It's not all like million plusfollowers, right?
So talk to me a little bitabout what are people not
understanding correctly when itcomes to influencer marketing.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, great question.
Like any game, there's levelsto it, and you know Tony Hawk
and things like that, sean Whitethey're on the celebrity level.
Right, arguably they're noteven influencers on the social
media side, yet they are, butthey're the historic celebrities
they influence across all media.
Right, we're focusing is moreon the I would say the bottom of
(07:33):
that pyramid.
Right, we're focusing on moreon the I would say the bottom of
that pyramid.
Right, we're focusing on thelevel one.
The foundation is what we justcall basic content creators, and
they're they're making thingslike UGC or user generated
content.
And I'm saying that they'rethey're at the bottom of the
pyramid because they have theleast amount of followers.
Right, they don't have to haveany followers at all to do good
content and, um, there's a lotof them out there.
(07:56):
Right, there's millions of, Ithink.
I heard a stat the other daythat it was like the number one
aspiration of a kid coming outof college these days is to be a
content creator, right Over anyother profession YouTube star,
I think, is one that I heard nottoo long ago.
Right, youtube, tiktok andthey're even realizing that they
can make money doing it Rightand easily, doing the things
they love, which is hanging outon their phone trying out
(08:17):
products and things like that,even doing things like affiliate
marketing.
So that's the entry level for alot of businesses that we work
with, when they haven't usedcreators before and they come in
and they make some UGC andthings like that, and then when
they get a little establishedand more used to using UGC in
their digital channels, thenthey'll move up to nano and
micro influencers.
(08:38):
And the reason we start callingthem influencers is because
they've amassed a following,right, that's, the difference
between an influencer and just acontent creator is they have an
audience, and gathering anaudience and keeping an audience
is not easy, right?
Not everyone can do it, sothere's less of those folks the
higher you go up that pyramid.
So we deal primarily in thenano, micro and then the next
(08:58):
level up, called mid tiercontent creators, because those
tend to be the most affordablefor a lot of small and medium
sized businesses that are our,our clientele.
Mid tier taps out arounddepending on who you ask 300,000
or half a million followers orsubscribers, and that's really
where the sweet spot is.
Like, we work with a bunch ofbrands through partnerships with
(09:20):
larger agencies, and these arebrands that you have in your you
know the CPG brands that youhave in your kitchen right now,
in the cabinet, brands that yougo out and stop by and buy
coffee from every morning, right, I can't name drop on here, but
you get the idea and they'reworking with mid-tier
influencers.
They're even going down andworking with micro influencers
(09:41):
as well, because I think theindustry recognizes the value
between micro and mid-tier over,say, compared to those
celebrity influencers that havemillions of followers.
Right, and the difference isthat authenticity word that
we're going to go back we wenttalked about earlier right, is
that mid tier and microinfluencers.
(10:02):
They have still, like, a veryniche following.
It hasn't been watered down yetby their large size of millions
of followers and they keeptheir content more niche, more
specific, not as general.
So they tend to have higherengagement rates, better loyalty
with their following andthey're not as expensive as
those big folks either, right,some of the.
(10:22):
I mean you can get a hundredthousand dollars a post for some
of those bigger influencers,over a million followers.
Like, who has the budget forthat when you're a medium-sized
business, right.
So even the big businesses, oreven the Fortune 500 companies,
they're getting savvy abouttheir budgets as well, and
everyone's playing in the microto mid tier space is what we're
seeing.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Well, and with a more narrow and focused content, you
get a more narrow and focusedaudience that's there for the
content that they're producingand if that is your sweet spot
for a brand, that's actually abetter place to be, because it's
, you know, dollar per result orreturn on investment, or
whatever you want to call it.
(11:02):
Return on ad spend is going tobe significantly higher, I would
think, because while they havesomeone has a million followers,
they're not all that.
I mean, that's like putting anad on the news, right Right,
right, don't know exactly whothose are going to be.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
No, I mean, everybody has tools that show audience
demographics, right.
We can see what the mix is andthe mix just gets more and more
general the bigger the creatoryou get.
Now it's not like there'sanything against large creators,
like they still work, right.
Even though we tend in theindustry to say that followers
is a vanity metric and youshouldn't focus on followers, it
(11:41):
still holds clout, right.
Like somebody has 10 millionsubscribers on YouTube, makes a
video, lots of people are goingto watch it.
It gets tremendous reach.
People love those creators, youknow.
But they also know that thosecreators are getting sponsored,
(12:01):
for the consumer is not stupid.
Like they know that they'regetting paid tens, hundreds of
thousands of dollars for thosesponsorships.
So there's brand awareness.
That works and things like thatat those larger levels.
But if you really want to drivelike very rapid, you know
interest and affinity and thingslike that, micro and mid tiers
is the better approach in myopinion.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
If someone, if a small to mid-sized business, is
looking to get started ininfluencer marketing, what do
you recommend?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Crawl, walk run.
This is a great questionbecause so many times I see like
I got $10,000.
What's the biggest influencer Ican work with?
And I'm like, pump the brakesright.
Like you've never worked withcreators before.
Don't blow all of your budgeton one person, because nobody
has a crystal ball and it'simpossibly.
Even if you do all the bestresearch and you look up the
(12:46):
creator's demographics and youthink they're a perfect brand
fit, what if that one or twoposts from that creator tanks
for whatever reason?
There's a lot of variables inthe whole influencer marketing
creator economy that areuncontrollable.
You know, like, what's going onin politics, what's going on
with trends, what time of yearis it right?
Like there's things that wecan't control.
So I always recommend crawl,walk run.
(13:09):
If you've never worked with anykind of content creators before
, start with some UGC right.
I see a lot of brands that are,you know, running paid media
campaigns and they haven't evenutilized UGC, even though UGC
has been around for years nowand it almost seems commonplace
to us.
Yeah, yeah, exactly RightDecades.
Arguably there's arguably, hasalways been UGC, even before
(13:30):
social media, right, it's justthis new term that came up, and
but still they're, you know,maybe they're using like high
production content or somethinglike that, and it's like get
some social proof into your ads,first by using some UGC and,
you know, get some nativecontent into the channels that
you're using and then, okay, seehow that improves your results.
(13:51):
And then, okay, now we're goingto walk, now we're going to work
with some nano and microinfluencers, and work with a lot
of them is what I alwaysrecommend.
Right, Get 10 at once to makeone post for you and then run
all that content in your ads, orsee how those posts perform
with audiences, becauseinfluencer marketing is all
about looking at the data, likeany channel.
Right, like you're going tohave 10 influencers post, you're
(14:14):
going to have a number oneinfluencer and you're going to
have a number 10 influencer.
As far as performance, and thatorganic performance of them
posting to the channels isprobably going to be different
than the paid performance of yourunning their content in the
ads.
So you have to look at bothseparately and then say, okay,
what worked, what didn't, whyDraw key insights out of it, and
then pivot your approach andwhy?
(14:36):
Draw key insights out of it?
And then pivot your approachand then you can slowly build
yourself up to working withbigger and bigger creators with
the confidence that when you'respending the money on those
bigger creators, you know what'sgoing to work.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, I love that experimenting right.
Start small and work your wayup, because then again you'll
know better what to ask for andwhat we're really truly looking
for when it comes to that, whichI think is there's a lot to say
for that level of experience.
Right that you get along theway.
So how much is the averageinfluencer getting paid?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Really good question.
I get this quite a bit, butit's been a little while since
anyone asked me.
It's the wild west out there.
I'll just say it's crazy.
There is no standard for howmuch to pay creators.
We have a calculator on ourwebsite, a free one that you can
use, but it's just a ballpark.
It's just an average.
There's just the challenges.
There's so many variables thatgo into what makes a quality
(15:29):
creator, and also the little bitof beauty is in the eye of the
beholder, right Like a creator'svalue to one brand is not the
same as a creator's value toanother brand.
So what I generally say, though, to help out folks, is about a
10 cent cost per view.
So I'm using views because I'mtalking about video content,
(15:50):
specifically because video isthe hot thing right now will
probably be the hot thing forthe foreseeable future.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
For like 10 years now , it's like the newest trend in
marketing video?
It's not now.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Right and short form, specifically Right.
A lot of folks that listen inare probably familiar with the
whole TikTok getting banned inthe US.
Not back and forth, right, Ican't keep track of it.
It's just crazy.
I've been hearing that questionsince Trump's first term about
is TikTok going to get banned?
And I'm like I don't know,hasn't been banned yet, we'll
see.
So in the meantime, we just keepusing it, we keep running
(16:24):
campaigns on it, but whetheryou're talking about Instagram
Reels or YouTube Shorts orTikTok videos, a 10 cent cost
per view.
So what you do is you look atthe creator's profile, you look
at their last 10 videos or soand you can average up what
their views are on their videosand use multiply by 10 cents.
(16:45):
So, for example, they got25,000 views per video on
average for the last 10 videos.
You could expect twenty fivehundred dollars per post as a
ballpark.
Now, does that mean you can'tfind a creator with those stats
that'll ask for five hundreddollars?
No, they're out there.
Can you find one that'll askfor ten thousand dollars?
Yeah, they're out there too.
So you need to know what you'regoing after as a brand or as a
(17:09):
marketer, because you're goingto get a wide range of responses
from creators.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
So you're going to need to think about what it's
going to be worth to you in theend, right, 100%?
You might have a higher endcreator that fits your brand a
little bit better than somebodyelse, and they may want to
charge more than the viewsyou're going to get, but then
being able to use that contenthas value, right?
So there's a lot of differentthings to factor in, and I like
that you take a lot of that intoconsideration.
(17:37):
So it is the Wild West, though,which is really interesting to
see.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Especially.
I'll add that the smaller thecreator generally, the tougher
you're going to have withgetting to the end result you
want managing that creator.
And it's just because smallercreators are less experienced
for the most part.
Now, of course, there's alwaysexceptions.
I always get the micro creatorthat comes back and says no, we
were great.
You know like you guys aregreat.
There are a lot of good microcreators out there, but in
general, I'm going to think youknow you're overgeneralizing
(18:10):
here.
The higher you go up thatpyramid of creator size, the
more experienced they are withbrand partnerships and the
easier they are to work with,the less you have to guide them
and train them.
So that is one negative toworking with smaller creators.
Like you see a million articlesand blog posts out there in
influencer marketing subject.
These days it's saying microinfluencers this is a new thing
Micro, micro, micro.
(18:31):
Right.
It's like, yeah, they're cheapand they get the job done, but
they're harder to work with andyou better make sure that you
know how to guide them properlyor else you're going to be
tearing your hair out workingwith a bunch of micro
influencers because they're justnot as savvy and experienced as
mid-tier and above.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Time is money too, right.
So there's value there as towhat you're paying and what
you're getting, to 100%, yeah.
So lots of things to thinkabout headed down the influencer
pathway.
If there was, say, one reasonsomebody should start
considering investigatinginfluencer partnerships, what
(19:07):
would you say?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
that is the number one reason is if someone needs
the ability to tell a storyabout their product or service.
We often work with a lot ofproducts where taking a picture
of it or putting a bunch of copyon a website just really
doesn't sell the emotion of howthat product or service is going
(19:28):
to benefit the audience.
And you know what?
I'll get on a call withfounders and I'll get on a call
with you know, doctors and allthese other folks that are so
passionate about their products.
And I'm like, great, like yousold me on it, but we have to
sell the audience now.
Like that, that speech you justgave me about how it this is so
(19:48):
transformational and whatever.
And like, yeah, you sold me,I'm in, let's go, but we have to
get that into your marketingright, we have to get that into
your content.
And I think that's what creatorsdo so well is they use the
products and when they, whenthey love them, it comes off as
a really good storytellingmessage.
And I put emphasis on the when,because I think that's another
(20:08):
really important part of workingwith creators is there's a lot
of folks out there that thinkthat, oh, I'm just to send
product to people and get themto post about it.
And it's like, no, you onlywant those creators that are
excited about their product.
Like if we, even when we have acontract with a creator and
that creator could have five, 10, $30,000 on the line for that
post, we're like do you love it?
All right, are you getting goodresults from it?
(20:31):
And if there's any sense of thatthat they don't absolutely love
the product, we're like, no,I'm going to keep it.
It's good, we're going tocancel the contract.
We'll go on to somebody elseand they're good with that.
Because creators sometimes feellike, oh, this brand really
wants me to do this and there'smoney on the line, like I got to
make it work and that's.
You absolutely don't want that.
Right, you lose all the.
Yeah, I'd say everyone has aused car salesman kind of sixth
(20:56):
sense and they can tell whenthey're being sold to and it's
not real.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I like that so there can be again working with an
agency that deals withinfluencers.
There's a lot of value there.
Right, getting that out on thatcontract if they don't love it,
it's huge, I mean, because thatcould do a lot of damage to
your brand if they feel thatthere's fake advertising and
promotion out there.
Right Again, going back to thatauthenticity piece, and I don't
(21:23):
know any brand that doesn'tneed storytelling.
So I think that pretty muchsays everybody needs influencer
marketing.
So when you're thinking aboutit, definitely check out the
links in the show notes and getconnected, check out the free
calculator and learn more aboutinfluencer marketing.
This has been an awesomeconversation about influencer
(21:44):
marketing.
Thank you so much for sharingall of your great insights and
tips about it along the way here.
Before I let you go, I do haveto ask you the question that I
ask everybody, and that is thisshow's called Imperfect
Marketing, because marketing isdefinitely not a perfect science
.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned along
the way, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Before I became an accidental marketer, I was an
electrical engineer, so totallydifferent and very analytical,
very math science focused, andthere was always a right or
wrong answer.
I think the toughest lesson thatI've had to learn coming into
marketing is that and one of mymentors in marketing taught me
this is marketing is kind oflike a hand of poker right,
(22:27):
where, even if you're the bestpoker player in the world,
you're at the poker world series, you go in with the best skills
and experience that youpossibly can, the best strategy
to every single hand, but youcan't expect to win every single
time and you have to be able topivot as you go.
So I've used my engineeringbackground and combined it with
(22:48):
marketing experience now to sayI'm very data driven.
Combine it with marketingexperience now to say, like, I'm
very data driven.
So that's why, you know, in ourdiscussion I talked about crawl
, walk, run and you know, startsmall, see what results you get
and build from there.
Because whether it's influenceror any other channel, even with
all of our experience, you'renot going to knock it out of the
park every single time.
So you have to look at what isthe data, or if you go wrong,
(23:09):
where do we go wrong, so you canmake corrections and go.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And if you went right , how can we do that again?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Exactly Right Think positive.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, gotta have the positivity.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, my husband is also an engineer, so he's
mechanical.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So he's a little bit of an accidental marketer
himself.
So thank you again so much forsharing all of this great
information, and we really doappreciate it.
Again, check out his agencydown in the show notes or the
description wherever you'relistening or watching, and be
sure to check out how you canget more involved with
influencer marketing.
Thanks so much for tuning in toanother episode of Imperfect
(23:50):
Marketing.
In the meantime, if you learnedsomething today, it would
really help us out if you wouldrate or subscribe.
Thanks and have a great day.
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back to theImperfect Marketing Podcast.
(00:27):
I'm your host, kendra Korman,and today I am joined by Dan
Coughlin, who is an expert indigital marketing.
So thanks so much for joiningme today.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself and how you
got into digital marketing?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, kendra, thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
So my background is a littlecomplex.
I mean, whose background isn't?
But I'm what you call, like anaccidental agency owner actually
an accidental marketer as well.
I didn't set out my career pathto be marketing, but here we are
.
But long story short, back inlike 2017, my wife started an
Instagram page and she startedposting like healthy baking
(01:04):
recipes so think about likegluten-free brownies and coconut
sugar cookies and things likethat because that was her
passion and she grew herInstagram page from scratch from
to about 25,000 followers so agood size micro influencer in
just under a year.
So I got to experience whatit's like behind the scenes to
(01:25):
be a content creator, how hardit is to grow an audience.
To maintain it.
It's a full-time job.
So my wife started getting alittle burnt out with being an
influencer.
She started getting some branddeals and things like that.
It started turning into more ofa job than a passion and a
couple brands that she wasworking with asked her for help
(01:45):
with their creator partnerships.
And that's how Get Hyped.
Our agency was born.
We started as an influencermarketing specialist agency and
over the past seven years, we'veblown up to now using content
creators and influencers to helpbusinesses add reoccurring
revenue, how to use influencersto really monetize.
So that's our specialty, amongother digital marketing things.
(02:07):
But the way I got involved wasthat when my wife started to get
burnt out by running the agencyherself after a couple of years
of doing it, and so I steppedin as managing director.
She's still involved.
She still owns the company, butI manage the day to day.
So for five years I've beendoing influencer, paid media,
email marketing, like a lot ofdifferent digital marketing
(02:28):
channels that support usingcontent creators in a business's
holistic marketing strategy.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Very cool.
Okay, so I have to ask apersonal question and you can.
You don't have to answer if youdon't want to.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I love personal questions.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So how is it working with your wife?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Very challenging.
I'll say that you know you haveto have some kinds of lines of
separation between business andwhen business is over it's tough
to stop talking about businesshonestly.
That's kind of why we have theroles the way we are, so we do
different things within thecompany.
I'm managing the kind of day today and she's more of a silent
(03:04):
partner, owner behind the scenesthese days and that works out
really well for us because it'snot for the weak right.
You got to have a strongrelationship and you have to
have clear lines of separationthere.
That's my recommendation ifanyone's thinking about going
into business with their partner.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yes, my husband has been helping me out lately in my
business and so just happens tobe very top of mind.
So I'm like how's that going?
He doesn't always like workingfor me, so I get that.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
It strengthens the relationship and it challenges
the relationship.
I mean I have, I have two youngkids as well.
Or I say we should, we have twoyoung kids as well, and you
know we call the business ourthird child all the time, you
know.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So yeah, very cool.
Thank you for sharing that.
Ok, so let's get back on adigital marketing.
What are, what are things thatyou're seeing right now?
What?
What's trending?
What's happening?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, the thing that's at the top of my mind
from day to day is just that thedigital consumer is just
becoming more savvy toadvertising.
Right, and this falls under,you know, traditional digital
ads, where you talk about Google, facebook, whatever, and then
if you use content creators andyou amplify their content and
turn their content into ads aswell, it's just not as simple as
(04:18):
it used to be of, oh, let mejust find an influencer and have
them talk about my products, orlet me just throw some ads up
and I'll get three X ROI orgreater pretty easily, like.
It's becoming more challenging,right.
So what that means, as asmarketers, is is we have to be
more creative, and I think wehave to think of new ideas and
really go more.
This is kind of an overused wordthese days in digital marketing
(04:38):
, but authenticity, right, weneed to.
You just can't slap an adtogether and expect it to do
well when it seems like it's notcoming from the heart, right.
Which is why I really loveinfluencer marketing and the
whole creator economy, becausewhen, when, done right creators,
when they love a product or aservice, it is authentic, it is
(04:59):
coming from the heart, and thenthe audiences respond to that
accordingly.
So that's what I really loveabout the trend that we're going
down is, in the social mediaworld, which I live in,
especially when platforms likeTikTok, consumers are savvier
than ever.
They can smell an advertisementfrom a mile away and you'll get
called out on it if it's poor.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, well, and I think again, I think that that
talking about doing things new,doing them different, being
authentic I'm a big fan of AI,and I think that that's where AI
falls short, right, so that'swhat's going to keep us in our
jobs for a while longer is thatit can't come up with that new
(05:38):
and authentic thing, right,unless you give it to it.
It can help you speed up thecontent creation process, but
it's not going to create it foryou, and I think that that's
just just really interestingwith what's going on right now.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I couldn't agree more .
I tell everyone AI is a tool.
I'm kind of getting tiredmyself of the discussion of like
is AI good or bad?
Do you use AI or do you don'tuse AI?
It's like it's not a black andwhite thing.
Right, it's a tool that you canuse to do things easier and
more efficient and better.
Right.
(06:13):
But if you don't use the toolcorrectly, the output is going
to be poor.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Exactly, exactly.
So you're talking a lot aboutinfluencer marketing and how if
it's authentically done and welldone and embedded into brands.
So I was the Jeep advertisingmanager a long time ago and we
were, we had influencermarketing and we sponsored Tony
Hawk and Sean White and you knowa little bit different than
(06:39):
what it is today and I know youthink even back then Doritos was
doing like a build your ownSuper Bowl commercial or
something like that.
But there's a differencebetween that and what you're
talking about.
I mean, your wife had twentyfive000 followers and she was
determined to be an influencerin the space that she was in.
(06:59):
It's not all like million plusfollowers, right?
So talk to me a little bitabout what are people not
understanding correctly when itcomes to influencer marketing.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, great question.
Like any game, there's levelsto it, and you know Tony Hawk
and things like that, sean Whitethey're on the celebrity level.
Right, arguably they're noteven influencers on the social
media side, yet they are, butthey're the historic celebrities
they influence across all media.
Right, we're focusing is moreon the I would say the bottom of
(07:33):
that pyramid.
Right, we're focusing on moreon the I would say the bottom of
that pyramid.
Right, we're focusing on thelevel one.
The foundation is what we justcall basic content creators, and
they're they're making thingslike UGC or user generated
content.
And I'm saying that they'rethey're at the bottom of the
pyramid because they have theleast amount of followers.
Right, they don't have to haveany followers at all to do good
content and, um, there's a lotof them out there.
(07:56):
Right, there's millions of, Ithink.
I heard a stat the other daythat it was like the number one
aspiration of a kid coming outof college these days is to be a
content creator, right Over anyother profession YouTube star,
I think, is one that I heard nottoo long ago.
Right, youtube, tiktok andthey're even realizing that they
can make money doing it Rightand easily, doing the things
they love, which is hanging outon their phone trying out
(08:17):
products and things like that,even doing things like affiliate
marketing.
So that's the entry level for alot of businesses that we work
with, when they haven't usedcreators before and they come in
and they make some UGC andthings like that, and then when
they get a little establishedand more used to using UGC in
their digital channels, thenthey'll move up to nano and
micro influencers.
(08:38):
And the reason we start callingthem influencers is because
they've amassed a following,right, that's, the difference
between an influencer and just acontent creator is they have an
audience, and gathering anaudience and keeping an audience
is not easy, right?
Not everyone can do it, sothere's less of those folks the
higher you go up that pyramid.
So we deal primarily in thenano, micro and then the next
(08:58):
level up, called mid tiercontent creators, because those
tend to be the most affordablefor a lot of small and medium
sized businesses that are our,our clientele.
Mid tier taps out arounddepending on who you ask 300,000
or half a million followers orsubscribers, and that's really
where the sweet spot is.
Like, we work with a bunch ofbrands through partnerships with
(09:20):
larger agencies, and these arebrands that you have in your you
know the CPG brands that youhave in your kitchen right now,
in the cabinet, brands that yougo out and stop by and buy
coffee from every morning, right, I can't name drop on here, but
you get the idea and they'reworking with mid-tier
influencers.
They're even going down andworking with micro influencers
(09:41):
as well, because I think theindustry recognizes the value
between micro and mid-tier over,say, compared to those
celebrity influencers that havemillions of followers.
Right, and the difference isthat authenticity word that
we're going to go back we wenttalked about earlier right, is
that mid tier and microinfluencers.
(10:02):
They have still, like, a veryniche following.
It hasn't been watered down yetby their large size of millions
of followers and they keeptheir content more niche, more
specific, not as general.
So they tend to have higherengagement rates, better loyalty
with their following andthey're not as expensive as
those big folks either, right,some of the.
(10:22):
I mean you can get a hundredthousand dollars a post for some
of those bigger influencers,over a million followers.
Like, who has the budget forthat when you're a medium-sized
business, right.
So even the big businesses, oreven the Fortune 500 companies,
they're getting savvy abouttheir budgets as well, and
everyone's playing in the microto mid tier space is what we're
seeing.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Well, and with a more narrow and focused content, you
get a more narrow and focusedaudience that's there for the
content that they're producingand if that is your sweet spot
for a brand, that's actually abetter place to be, because it's
, you know, dollar per result orreturn on investment, or
whatever you want to call it.
(11:02):
Return on ad spend is going tobe significantly higher, I would
think, because while they havesomeone has a million followers,
they're not all that.
I mean, that's like putting anad on the news, right Right,
right, don't know exactly whothose are going to be.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
No, I mean, everybody has tools that show audience
demographics, right.
We can see what the mix is andthe mix just gets more and more
general the bigger the creatoryou get.
Now it's not like there'sanything against large creators,
like they still work, right.
Even though we tend in theindustry to say that followers
is a vanity metric and youshouldn't focus on followers, it
(11:41):
still holds clout, right.
Like somebody has 10 millionsubscribers on YouTube, makes a
video, lots of people are goingto watch it.
It gets tremendous reach.
People love those creators, youknow.
But they also know that thosecreators are getting sponsored,
(12:01):
for the consumer is not stupid.
Like they know that they'regetting paid tens, hundreds of
thousands of dollars for thosesponsorships.
So there's brand awareness.
That works and things like thatat those larger levels.
But if you really want to drivelike very rapid, you know
interest and affinity and thingslike that, micro and mid tiers
is the better approach in myopinion.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
If someone, if a small to mid-sized business, is
looking to get started ininfluencer marketing, what do
you recommend?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Crawl, walk run.
This is a great questionbecause so many times I see like
I got $10,000.
What's the biggest influencer Ican work with?
And I'm like, pump the brakesright.
Like you've never worked withcreators before.
Don't blow all of your budgeton one person, because nobody
has a crystal ball and it'simpossibly.
Even if you do all the bestresearch and you look up the
(12:46):
creator's demographics and youthink they're a perfect brand
fit, what if that one or twoposts from that creator tanks
for whatever reason?
There's a lot of variables inthe whole influencer marketing
creator economy that areuncontrollable.
You know, like, what's going onin politics, what's going on
with trends, what time of yearis it right?
Like there's things that wecan't control.
So I always recommend crawl,walk run.
(13:09):
If you've never worked with anykind of content creators before
, start with some UGC right.
I see a lot of brands that are,you know, running paid media
campaigns and they haven't evenutilized UGC, even though UGC
has been around for years nowand it almost seems commonplace
to us.
Yeah, yeah, exactly RightDecades.
Arguably there's arguably, hasalways been UGC, even before
(13:30):
social media, right, it's justthis new term that came up, and
but still they're, you know,maybe they're using like high
production content or somethinglike that, and it's like get
some social proof into your ads,first by using some UGC and,
you know, get some nativecontent into the channels that
you're using and then, okay, seehow that improves your results.
(13:51):
And then, okay, now we're goingto walk, now we're going to work
with some nano and microinfluencers, and work with a lot
of them is what I alwaysrecommend.
Right, Get 10 at once to makeone post for you and then run
all that content in your ads, orsee how those posts perform
with audiences, becauseinfluencer marketing is all
about looking at the data, likeany channel.
Right, like you're going tohave 10 influencers post, you're
(14:14):
going to have a number oneinfluencer and you're going to
have a number 10 influencer.
As far as performance, and thatorganic performance of them
posting to the channels isprobably going to be different
than the paid performance of yourunning their content in the
ads.
So you have to look at bothseparately and then say, okay,
what worked, what didn't, whyDraw key insights out of it, and
then pivot your approach andwhy?
(14:36):
Draw key insights out of it?
And then pivot your approachand then you can slowly build
yourself up to working withbigger and bigger creators with
the confidence that when you'respending the money on those
bigger creators, you know what'sgoing to work.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, I love that experimenting right.
Start small and work your wayup, because then again you'll
know better what to ask for andwhat we're really truly looking
for when it comes to that, whichI think is there's a lot to say
for that level of experience.
Right that you get along theway.
So how much is the averageinfluencer getting paid?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Really good question.
I get this quite a bit, butit's been a little while since
anyone asked me.
It's the wild west out there.
I'll just say it's crazy.
There is no standard for howmuch to pay creators.
We have a calculator on ourwebsite, a free one that you can
use, but it's just a ballpark.
It's just an average.
There's just the challenges.
There's so many variables thatgo into what makes a quality
(15:29):
creator, and also the little bitof beauty is in the eye of the
beholder, right Like a creator'svalue to one brand is not the
same as a creator's value toanother brand.
So what I generally say, though, to help out folks, is about a
10 cent cost per view.
So I'm using views because I'mtalking about video content,
(15:50):
specifically because video isthe hot thing right now will
probably be the hot thing forthe foreseeable future.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
For like 10 years now , it's like the newest trend in
marketing video?
It's not now.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Right and short form, specifically Right.
A lot of folks that listen inare probably familiar with the
whole TikTok getting banned inthe US.
Not back and forth, right, Ican't keep track of it.
It's just crazy.
I've been hearing that questionsince Trump's first term about
is TikTok going to get banned?
And I'm like I don't know,hasn't been banned yet, we'll
see.
So in the meantime, we just keepusing it, we keep running
(16:24):
campaigns on it, but whetheryou're talking about Instagram
Reels or YouTube Shorts orTikTok videos, a 10 cent cost
per view.
So what you do is you look atthe creator's profile, you look
at their last 10 videos or soand you can average up what
their views are on their videosand use multiply by 10 cents.
(16:45):
So, for example, they got25,000 views per video on
average for the last 10 videos.
You could expect twenty fivehundred dollars per post as a
ballpark.
Now, does that mean you can'tfind a creator with those stats
that'll ask for five hundreddollars?
No, they're out there.
Can you find one that'll askfor ten thousand dollars?
Yeah, they're out there too.
So you need to know what you'regoing after as a brand or as a
(17:09):
marketer, because you're goingto get a wide range of responses
from creators.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
So you're going to need to think about what it's
going to be worth to you in theend, right, 100%?
You might have a higher endcreator that fits your brand a
little bit better than somebodyelse, and they may want to
charge more than the viewsyou're going to get, but then
being able to use that contenthas value, right?
So there's a lot of differentthings to factor in, and I like
that you take a lot of that intoconsideration.
(17:37):
So it is the Wild West, though,which is really interesting to
see.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Especially.
I'll add that the smaller thecreator generally, the tougher
you're going to have withgetting to the end result you
want managing that creator.
And it's just because smallercreators are less experienced
for the most part.
Now, of course, there's alwaysexceptions.
I always get the micro creatorthat comes back and says no, we
were great.
You know like you guys aregreat.
There are a lot of good microcreators out there, but in
general, I'm going to think youknow you're overgeneralizing
(18:10):
here.
The higher you go up thatpyramid of creator size, the
more experienced they are withbrand partnerships and the
easier they are to work with,the less you have to guide them
and train them.
So that is one negative toworking with smaller creators.
Like you see a million articlesand blog posts out there in
influencer marketing subject.
These days it's saying microinfluencers this is a new thing
Micro, micro, micro.
(18:31):
Right.
It's like, yeah, they're cheapand they get the job done, but
they're harder to work with andyou better make sure that you
know how to guide them properlyor else you're going to be
tearing your hair out workingwith a bunch of micro
influencers because they're justnot as savvy and experienced as
mid-tier and above.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Time is money too, right.
So there's value there as towhat you're paying and what
you're getting, to 100%, yeah.
So lots of things to thinkabout headed down the influencer
pathway.
If there was, say, one reasonsomebody should start
considering investigatinginfluencer partnerships, what
(19:07):
would you say?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
that is the number one reason is if someone needs
the ability to tell a storyabout their product or service.
We often work with a lot ofproducts where taking a picture
of it or putting a bunch of copyon a website just really
doesn't sell the emotion of howthat product or service is going
(19:28):
to benefit the audience.
And you know what?
I'll get on a call withfounders and I'll get on a call
with you know, doctors and allthese other folks that are so
passionate about their products.
And I'm like, great, like yousold me on it, but we have to
sell the audience now.
Like that, that speech you justgave me about how it this is so
(19:48):
transformational and whatever.
And like, yeah, you sold me,I'm in, let's go, but we have to
get that into your marketingright, we have to get that into
your content.
And I think that's what creatorsdo so well is they use the
products and when they, whenthey love them, it comes off as
a really good storytellingmessage.
And I put emphasis on the when,because I think that's another
(20:08):
really important part of workingwith creators is there's a lot
of folks out there that thinkthat, oh, I'm just to send
product to people and get themto post about it.
And it's like, no, you onlywant those creators that are
excited about their product.
Like if we, even when we have acontract with a creator and
that creator could have five, 10, $30,000 on the line for that
post, we're like do you love it?
All right, are you getting goodresults from it?
(20:31):
And if there's any sense of thatthat they don't absolutely love
the product, we're like, no,I'm going to keep it.
It's good, we're going tocancel the contract.
We'll go on to somebody elseand they're good with that.
Because creators sometimes feellike, oh, this brand really
wants me to do this and there'smoney on the line, like I got to
make it work and that's.
You absolutely don't want that.
Right, you lose all the.
Yeah, I'd say everyone has aused car salesman kind of sixth
(20:56):
sense and they can tell whenthey're being sold to and it's
not real.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I like that so there can be again working with an
agency that deals withinfluencers.
There's a lot of value there.
Right, getting that out on thatcontract if they don't love it,
it's huge, I mean, because thatcould do a lot of damage to
your brand if they feel thatthere's fake advertising and
promotion out there.
Right Again, going back to thatauthenticity piece, and I don't
(21:23):
know any brand that doesn'tneed storytelling.
So I think that pretty muchsays everybody needs influencer
marketing.
So when you're thinking aboutit, definitely check out the
links in the show notes and getconnected, check out the free
calculator and learn more aboutinfluencer marketing.
This has been an awesomeconversation about influencer
(21:44):
marketing.
Thank you so much for sharingall of your great insights and
tips about it along the way here.
Before I let you go, I do haveto ask you the question that I
ask everybody, and that is thisshow's called Imperfect
Marketing, because marketing isdefinitely not a perfect science
.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned along
the way, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Before I became an accidental marketer, I was an
electrical engineer, so totallydifferent and very analytical,
very math science focused, andthere was always a right or
wrong answer.
I think the toughest lesson thatI've had to learn coming into
marketing is that and one of mymentors in marketing taught me
this is marketing is kind oflike a hand of poker right,
(22:27):
where, even if you're the bestpoker player in the world,
you're at the poker world series, you go in with the best skills
and experience that youpossibly can, the best strategy
to every single hand, but youcan't expect to win every single
time and you have to be able topivot as you go.
So I've used my engineeringbackground and combined it with
(22:48):
marketing experience now to sayI'm very data driven.
Combine it with marketingexperience now to say, like, I'm
very data driven.
So that's why, you know, in ourdiscussion I talked about crawl
, walk, run and you know, startsmall, see what results you get
and build from there.
Because whether it's influenceror any other channel, even with
all of our experience, you'renot going to knock it out of the
park every single time.
So you have to look at what isthe data, or if you go wrong,
(23:09):
where do we go wrong, so you canmake corrections and go.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And if you went right , how can we do that again?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Exactly Right Think positive.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, gotta have the positivity.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, my husband is also an engineer, so he's
mechanical.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So he's a little bit of an accidental marketer
himself.
So thank you again so much forsharing all of this great
information, and we really doappreciate it.
Again, check out his agencydown in the show notes or the
description wherever you'relistening or watching, and be
sure to check out how you canget more involved with
influencer marketing.
Thanks so much for tuning in toanother episode of Imperfect
(23:50):
Marketing.
In the meantime, if you learnedsomething today, it would
really help us out if you wouldrate or subscribe.
Thanks and have a great day.
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