April 24, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Christina Lenkowski, podcast visibility expert and founder of Publicity by Christina, to dig into the real reasons your podcast pitches might be falling flat—and what to do instead.
If you’ve ever felt nervous about pitching yourself for podcast guest spots, or if you’re wondering whether podcast interviews are really worth it, this conversation is for you.
🔍 In This Episode, We Discuss:
Common Podcast Pitching Mistakes
- Why the “spray and pray” method won’t get you booked
- How generic, non-personalized pitches land in the delete pile
- Why not including specific topic ideas is a deal-breaker for most hosts
Mindset Blocks That Keep You from Showing Up
- Why being an introvert doesn’t disqualify you from being a great podcast guest
- What to do when you stumble, swear, or lose your place during an interview
- How to stop worrying about what people might think
Getting Visible Beyond Social Media
- Why social media doesn’t count as getting in front of new audiences
- The difference between building brand equity vs. gaining visibility
- How podcast guesting gets you in front of highly engaged, loyal audiences
The Power of Small Podcasts
- Why small shows with the right audience often outperform big-name podcasts
- How quality conversations with 10 ideal clients beat thousands of random views
- The unexpected value of local or niche podcasts
Tracking What Works
- How Christina uses a “Visibility KPI” to grow her business
- Setting visibility goals that align with your time and stage of business
- The marketing lesson Christina learned from finally tracking her own data
💡 Key Takeaways for Entrepreneurs and Marketers
- Podcast guesting is a visibility strategy, not a vanity metric.
- Authenticity beats perfection. Life happens—hosts get it.
- Follow-up matters. Respectful persistence gets results.
- Pitch with purpose. Bring tailored topics and make it easy for the host to say yes.
- Track your outreach. Visibility only works if you measure it.
✨ Whether you’re a coach, consultant, creative, or service provider, this episode will inspire you to:
- Get out of your head and start pitching
- Focus on real relationships, not follower counts
- Show up where your audience already is—in their earbuds.
Are you ready to grow your business by getting heard?
🎧 Tune in now and learn how to pitch podcasts like a pro and build visibility that actually moves the needle.
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
Watch here
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, kendra Korman,and today I am joined by
Christina Lenkowski, and I wasworking on practicing that one.
I'm super excited to have youhere and joining me.
We're going to be talking aboutpodcasting and podcast pitching
specifically, so I'm reallyexcited to hear what she has to
(00:49):
tell us.
So welcome, christina, and howdid you get into pitching
podcasts?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you, kendra.
I'm so excited to be here,particularly in front of my
fellow kind of marketing nerds,because that is the world that I
have been in for almost 20years at this point.
In the marketing and PR world.
I spent a lot of time atagencies, working in-house and
agencies for all kinds ofdifferent organizations, and
(01:15):
really what led me here is Idecided after I had my daughter
that I was going to start acourse.
I was going to have a course ontourism PR.
I was obviously going to make amillion dollars in my sleep,
like I drank all the Kool-Aid.
It was going to be easy peasy,like, let me do this, let me
just make this course reallyquick and then basically retire
(01:36):
Right, that was like my.
That was like my plan at thistime.
This was like 2017, 2018.
The way that they were teachingto promote like your course was
to essentially put a bunch ofmoney into ads, do a live
webinar and then sell via emailand obviously make a million
dollars in your sleep, like Isaid.
And so when I went to go launchmy course the first time, I did
(02:01):
exactly those steps.
Like I was like, okay, this iswhat they're saying, this is
what I'm going to do, and so Iwant to be clear on this.
I was teaching a course onpublicity and I did no publicity
.
Okay, so this is where.
Where I was at, I was like,okay, this is what I'm going to
do.
So, in a shock, to no oneexcept for me, this did not go
(02:23):
well and I only ended up sellingyou know a couple, a couple of
courses, whatever, during thatand I was like, okay, this is
not, this is not working.
I remember my husband was likewhat are we doing here?
And I was like I'll figure itout.
Like don't, don't worry aboutit.
And so what I did after that is, I tapped back into my
intuition and I was like you'reteaching a course on publicity,
(02:46):
you know how to do publicity.
You've been doing it at thatpoint for well over a decade, so
let's just start sending outsome pitches.
And at that point, podcasts werea thing, but they weren't the
thing that they are today.
Right, they weren't necessarilylike such a part of our
everyday lives and whateverybody was listening to, et
(03:06):
cetera, but I started to pitchmyself onto podcasts that were
full of my ideal audience andthe difference in my business
was just night and day.
People were really hearing meon a podcast, they were reaching
out to me, they were purchasingmy course, they were asking me
to come speak at something, etcetera.
And so when COVID hit, I hadalready kind of had an inkling
to change what I was doing a bit.
(03:28):
And that just kind of pushed mefull force, because it was so
easy to do podcasts from yourhome that I started teaching
people how to guest on or pitchthemselves on podcasts.
Guest on podcasts.
But by the end of that year Ihad so many people that were
like, yeah, could you just do it, that I started pitching people
on the podcast and grew it tothe agency that we have today.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
That is so cool.
Thank you so much for sharingyour journey too, because I
think it's yeah, you know it'swe're not making money in our
sleep, right?
I mean, it all takes work, itall takes effort.
Yes, it can to an extent.
You could maybe, you know, geta sale while you're asleep, but
you did work that led up to thatand there's a lot of work
(04:13):
involved, and I love that youcovered that, because I think,
you know, yeah, we all sometimeslike to drink the Kool-Aid and
it's not always what's real forus.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So thank you, and it's not our fault.
We're marketed.
We're marketed to, you know.
I mean, that's that is what itis, and you know, it's just kind
of figuring out what is goingto work for you, what isn't
going to work for you.
And for me, podcasts ended upbeing a really great way and
they continue to be a reallygreat way to get my name out
(04:43):
there and sell my service andfor people to you know, know who
I am, and what I do.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I love podcasting for that reason, because it really
creates a connection, right,they see you, they hear you,
they.
They feel like they get to knowyou more than anything else,
right, and I think that that'sthat's part of why it's so
powerful.
I love it when I hear from myguests and they're like hey,
(05:08):
kendra, by the way, someonecontacted me off of it, or I got
two phone calls after yourepisode went live, and I'm like,
yay, that means that I'mserving my audience too, right,
that means that those who arelistening and watching are
relating to what we're talkingabout, and I think that that's
so important.
So let's talk a little bitabout the mistakes that people
(05:31):
make when pitching themselves toget on a podcast, since that's
what you've built your businesson.
What are some of those mistakes?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I think that really the biggest thing, kendra, that
I like to bring up is there area lot of people that are
listening to us right now andthey are like I'm never doing
that.
Like they are very in theirhead about like yeah, yeah, yeah
, no, I see how podcasts couldbe really good for me to go on,
but I'm never going to do that.
Right, I'm not outgoing, I'mnot whatever.
(05:57):
This is not something that I'mever going to do, and I really
want you to shift that mindset.
First of all, most of ourclients are introverts.
So if you are an introvert andyou're hearing this, I want you
to just completely shift it,because really, all you're
having is a one-on-oneconversation, okay.
So I just want you to thinkabout that.
Like Kendra and I are justtalking, there's not a big
audience in front of us, there'snot a lot of other people there
(06:19):
, not anything like that.
We are just having a one-on-oneconversation.
But the other thing I want youto think about is what's the
worst thing that can happen?
Okay, and I want you to reallythink about that.
And for most people, the thingsthat are going to come to their
mind are, you know, somethingalong the lines of I mess up
what I'm saying.
Okay, Kendra has just had todeal with me having technical
(06:41):
issues for the past multipleminutes.
Okay, this is fine, becausethis can all be edited.
Okay, 99% of the podcasts thatyou do are not going to be live,
and if it's not, I would say ifyou're doing your first podcast
, don't have it be a live one.
Okay, maybe pick another one.
You can do that one a littlebit later on.
Okay, but for the most part,most podcasts are not live.
(07:03):
All right, a host is not out toget you.
Ok, they are trying to put outthe absolute best content that
they possibly can, and so what Imean by that is I just had to
say to Kendra hey, do you mindasking me that that question
again, so that I can start fromthe top and the beginning and
give an answer?
This is perfectly fine to doduring an interview.
(07:23):
So if you're really, reallystressed about messing something
up, please know I accidentallyswear, I accidentally combine
words, I accidentally do thesethings all the time, and
sometimes we leave them inbecause that's me, that's real
life, that's what happens.
But also sometimes I might say,hey, do you mind editing that
out?
I just feel like I didn'tanswer that the best that I
could, if I could start again,et cetera.
(07:43):
Not, I just feel like I didn'tanswer that.
The best that I could, if Icould start again, et cetera,
not a problem, okay.
So I want you to get that, Iwant you to get that out of your
head.
Really, any kind of variationof I mess up what I'm saying,
okay.
Then there's also people thatare going to say something to
the effect of well, what ifpeople are listening to me and
then they think she doesn't knowwhat she's talking about, or he
(08:04):
doesn't know what he's talkingabout, right, like, what an
idiot, dead of death.
And I am here to tell you thatmost people are thinking about
themselves most of the time.
Okay, they are not thinkingabout you.
That doesn't mean they're notlistening to you.
I wanna be very clear on that.
But what it means is, whenthey're listening to you, they
are more so thinking how can Iapply this to me?
(08:27):
To me, okay.
So I think that that's a reallyimportant thing for you to
remember is, people are notagain, I don't listen to a
podcast and just go.
What a idiot, okay, like thatis.
I can honestly say I don't thinkI've ever thought that when
hearing someone on a podcast andKendra's shaking her head, she
agrees, right, we are reallythinking about how can I apply
this in my life, in my business,right, et cetera, going forward
(08:51):
.
So I think that's important, butultimately, what I want you to
think about is I truly, trulybelieve this the worst thing
that can happen, the worst thingis you do not put yourself out
there because your business willnot grow.
I talk to people time and timeagain just keep wondering why
their business isn't growing,why their business isn't growing
(09:12):
and yet they are not gettingvisible in front of new
audiences on a regular basis.
Okay, and podcasts are a greateasy way to be doing that.
So if you're kind of stuck inthat place where you're just
like I'm not seeing my businessgrow and yet you really take a
good hard look at yourself andare like I'm also never getting
in front of new audiencesbecause I'm going to be real to
(09:33):
you Social media doesn't count,okay, and I can talk about that,
I can get more in depth on that, but you need to really be
strongly then consideringguesting on other people's
podcasts is a really, reallygreat way to be getting out
there.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I mess up all the time All the time.
Nine times out of ten.
I leave it in Roll with it.
Yep, but I love the people arethinking about themselves.
Yeah, I don't I've disagreedwith people on podcasts that
I've listened to 100%.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yes, I've had some different reactions, but I've
never thought, oh my gosh,they're a total idiot Ever 100%,
100% I don't think ever, and Ithink that's an important piece
there is that that does not meanI've agreed 100% with every
person I hear in a podcast.
That's a really, really goodpoint.
But it also doesn't mean that Ithen think that that's not a
(10:25):
smart thought, right?
Or that they must not know whatthey're talking about, because
I disagree with one thing.
You know different from them,ok, so I love that you bring up
that point of like.
It doesn't mean that people aregoing to necessarily disagree
with you but they're not sittingthere thinking they obviously
don't know what they're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Right now and again we've been having technical
issues.
I actually think that that's agreat example.
I actually think that that's agreat example.
It happens.
I was guesting on a podcast.
My internet went out and she'slike hey, let's just reschedule
Called Comcast.
I had them come out.
They found out that it was afaulty wire that went bad in the
last three to five years I haveno idea when or where, like
(11:07):
stuff, life happens.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Life happens 100%.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yes, and that's okay.
Most hosts are going to.
Life happens right.
Life happens 100%.
Yes, and that's okay.
Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Most hosts are gonna be very understanding.
Most hosts are gonna be veryunderstanding of that and also
understand that life happens,right.
You know we've had clients thatare literally like writing us
from a hurricane and they'relike I'm trying, but I don't
think I'm gonna be able to geton today.
It's like, yeah, obviously youknow what I mean.
And like we reach out to ourhost and they're like, yeah, of
course we can reschedule, right,like it's it's okay.
You know, life does happen.
(11:39):
Things come up.
I was telling Kendra before wehopped on.
I've been dealing with a lot ofvertigo in the past month to
two months and I've had toreschedule a couple of podcast
appearances and that sucks.
I don't want to do that.
I don't like doing that.
But I also know I'm not goingto bring the best amount of
value or the best like versionof myself to that if I'm not
feeling great, right, I thinkthat the best you can do is the
(12:05):
best you can do, right, but it'sabsolutely getting out there
and I also want to mention that,no matter what, you are going
to sweat and stumble your waythrough your first couple of
podcast interviews Okay.
So like, just be prepared forthat.
You know, when we work with ourclients, we get them booked on
all these shows and they'llalways even if they've been on
podcasts before.
There's always like some nervesfor those first ones, but by
the time you've done a couple,you're going to feel a lot more
(12:27):
comfortable.
And by the time you've done 10,15, you know 20, you're going
to be an old pro at it.
It's just like anything.
It's a muscle.
Exercising it as much aspossible, you're going to get
stronger and better at it.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I agree, I don't know any podcaster that would
actually encourage you to listento their early episodes.
Don't listen to mine.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, well, now I'm going to.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
But it was stiff.
It wasn't a conversation, itwas a list of questions.
It was thank God for thepatience of my guests because,
yeah, it was not the best itcould have been, but if I didn't
do that I wouldn't be where I'mat now and I think it's a lot
more conversational and a lotbetter, and if you're listening,
(13:13):
hopefully you agree too, andthat's why you're listening.
So all right.
So you mentioned social mediaand getting in front of other
audiences and how social mediadoesn't count.
Talk to me a little bit moreabout that.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yes, and what I mean by that is I'm not anti-social
media.
Okay, like, I want to be very,very clear on that.
I have a social media presence,et cetera.
But one thing that I thinkpeople mistake a lot is thinking
that social media is going toget them in front of new
audiences regularly.
Ok, I will talk to people a lotand they'll be like, no, I just
(13:45):
need to post more.
And I'm like you don't, youactually don't need to do that,
Right?
And but in their mind it's beenso ground into them because
social media is such a part ofour life Like, well, if I just
post more, more people are goingto see it.
No, that's not necessarily howthat works.
And, kendra, I don't know ifyou have some insight into that
too, or hearing from otherpeople also when they say that,
but occasionally and I'm nothere to say that you'll never
(14:08):
get in front of new people onsocial media Again, don't get me
wrong, but that cannot be yourmain strategy for getting in
front of new people regularly.
It is a great way to build yourbrand, build your equity and
build your following that youalready have.
But when it comes to newaudiences, again, it's gonna
happen, but it's not.
It shouldn't be the main thing.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Well, and sometimes posting more will get you in
front of less people even Well,and sometimes posting more will
get you in front of less peopleeven inside your existing
network.
So it depends on the algorithm.
And you know social media isrented land Guesting on other
people's podcasts they own thatright.
They're putting it on theirsocials, which is going to get
(14:49):
you in front of other audience,right.
They're putting you on,potentially, their website.
If they're hosting it on theirwebsite, they've got some sort
of website.
It can be coming up in search.
They've got a loyal audience.
Even if it's like 5, 10, 15, 20people a week, that's another
handful of people that arelistening to like 15, 20, 30
(15:11):
quality minutes of conversationwith you.
Yep, where do you get that?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You hit the nail on the head and I think an
important thing that I talkabout a lot with people this is
something I personally have inmy business and I recommend is
having a visibility KPI, sohaving a certain thing you track
in your business which is howoften you are getting in front
of new audiences.
Okay, Now, this doesn't have tobe just podcasts, Like I wanna
(15:36):
be clear on that podcastguesting.
That can also mean attending anevent, right, and that could be
like for me.
I live in Boise, Idaho, likeI'm pretty much always going out
of town to attend an event,right, so that could be that.
But that could also be a localnetworking event, right, If
that's something that you haveavailable to you.
That could be even just having aone-on-one coffee date or a
small group coffee date withsome people that you're going to
(15:57):
be talking about your businesswith.
Right, that can be doing a blogpost on someone else's platform
, right, Doing, potentiallydoing like, let's say, a
LinkedIn Live again, wheresomeone else is kind of the host
and you are getting out there.
But what are those ways thatyou are regularly getting in
front of new audiences and notthe things that, to your point,
(16:19):
you own right, Not the thingsthat you are owning and the
audiences that you already have,but these new places that
you're showing up in front of.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So, yes, agreed, a hundred percent.
Like there's so many differentways to do this.
If this isn't the right fit foryou, there's other options and
you can still use these lessonsthat you're talking about in
these points.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
They apply to these other ones too, have a person my
, my KPI is one time a week onaverage.
On average, so, meaning thereare some weeks when I'm not, I'm
not getting in front of anybody, right.
But then there's some weekswhere I'm on two or three
different opportunities or I,you know, attend a big event and
I attend multiple things, right.
(17:03):
But this is something that Itracked the whole of 2024.
I was like, okay, I'm reallygoing to put my money where my
mouth is.
I'm going to track this.
I'm going to see what happensby me hitting this visibility
KPI.
Personally, I also set a goalof attending 12 out-of-town
events as well.
So, an average of one a month,understanding that some months
(17:24):
there's going to be more thanothers, right, et cetera.
But really, looking at whatthis does to my business, what
kind of shifts because of it andit was really fascinating.
And for you, one time a weekmight seem like a lot Like.
You might be like, oh, I don'tknow about that, although I
would make the argument if youwere at the beginning of your
business.
You have the time to actuallybe setting that type of a goal.
(17:44):
But let's say, I'm gonna giveyou the most is once every other
week.
Okay, that's the most I'm goingto give you to have on average
for that visibility KPI, and Iwant you to think about that.
At the end of a year, let's say, you will have had 26 different
opportunities, that you havegotten in front of new audiences
and again that could be amixture of different things and
(18:05):
I can pretty much guarantee ifyou've been getting in front of
the right audiences and talkingto the right people, your
business is going to lookdifferent than it did at the
beginning of that year.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yes, I and I love that I set a goal of guesting on
22 podcasts this year 24, 24, Ithink, or maybe 25.
I can't even I should write.
I should remember, because Ijust looked at it this morning
and I've done seven so far andwe're recording this in early
March.
So I am right on task or righton schedule.
(18:34):
You're getting there.
You're getting there.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
And that's actually the number we, when we have
annual clients that's the numberwe're getting them on is 24.
So, like that average of two amonth is great.
And then you know, we love themto, of course, be doing more
than that, but what they knowthat they've at least got that
taken care of for the year where, like hey, I'm already hitting
this once every other week, andnow there's other opportunities,
these ones that are on top ofit is just, you know, it's gravy
(18:58):
right, it's cherry on top foryou to be able to do even more
than that.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, and again I set a goal because I had not set a
goal before and I was just sortof randomly, when they came,
when the opportunities presentedthemselves, doing it.
Now it's a focused effort.
So every month I reach out topeople to see if they would like
to have me on their podcast.
So what other missteps arepeople making when pitching?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I think that a big misstep people are making when
pitching is, quite frankly wecall it in the industry taking a
spray and pray approach topitching and I guarantee Kendra
will have some insight as thisfrom a podcast host perspective
of just getting pitches that arein no way personalized to that
particular host or thatparticular show right.
(19:44):
I think people kind of get inthis mindset of like, well, if
it's a numbers game, right, likeI'm just gonna find a list of
podcast hosts and I'm just gonnasend the exact same email
podcast hosts and I'm just goingto send the exact same email
out to every single one of themand just kind of pray, like I
said that, like a couple comethrough, right, and that is not
at all the way that I recommenddoing your pitch work right.
(20:06):
We have a much higher successrate of getting our clients on
podcasts because we are takingthe time to really look at that
show, look at their audience.
And I'm not saying we'relistening to like a full episode
before we're pitching, but weare really taking, you know,
let's say, 10, 15 minutes to doa great deep dive on that show,
(20:27):
listen to a little bit of it,watch the summary of it, you
know, et cetera, so that when wedo go to pitch, that host is
very aware that like hey, we'vetaken some time here, right.
Like we are aware of what youraudience is looking for and why
we think this particular clientwould be a great fit for your
show.
And I think that that's such animportant thing for you know,
everyone to understand is youwanna be getting on quality
(20:50):
shows, right, so make sure thatyou're putting some effort into
that.
And then I'd love to hear fromyou on just kind of the
differences and pitches that youreceive.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Oh, sometimes I'm like, what are you even talking?
I don't even talk about that.
They're like, hi, we've gotsomebody you know that we'd like
to have on your podcast and hetalks about real estate.
And I'm like, okay, that that'sgreat, but I don't talk about
real estate.
That's not my audience.
I mean, yes, they're, they'revery well, maybe, and I'm aware
(21:23):
that there's a few realtors thatlisten to the show, but no,
like that's just not what Icover.
And it's like you didn't evenlook at the description of what
I do, let alone listen to anepisode, right.
And so I mean, if you show meyou listened to an episode, that
you took that effort, you moveup a lot higher in the list of
(21:45):
people that I'm willing to haveon the show, right, and that's
important.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
It is important.
And another thing that's reallyimportant that a lot of people
sleep on is follow-up too.
We are really really big infollow-up.
In our agency we're followingup always if we haven't heard
back for I mean, you know, notfor not till a couple of weeks
later.
But I just mean that that is ageneral part of our work.
That we're doing is thefollow-up as well, because
podcast hosts are human justlike all the rest of us, right?
(22:10):
They flag stuff, they mean toget back to something they don't
, right they're, somethinghappens and they need to go take
care of it.
So I always always say, like,make sure you're doing that
follow-up work too, because wehave booked many a podcast based
on the follow-up work that wedo.
So that's definitely a misstepthat we can see people do, but
just schedule that time intoyour calendar so that you can be
(22:33):
making it happen.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, and the follow-up is really important
because if I see that you'rereaching out and you're reaching
out more than once again movesyou higher up in the list, I
probably recognize the name.
Or if you forwarded theoriginal email, I'm like, oh of
it, but it's not my job.
It's not what pays the billsall the time.
(23:00):
The results of it do right, butnot podcasting itself right, so
it's not always 100% the numberone priority in my world.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, it's a priority , but it's not the priority, and
so I think that's important tokind of understand that
distinction there for hosts andwhy it's okay to follow up.
I'll definitely have peoplethat'll be like I don't know, am
I going to be bothering them?
And I'm like, well, no, I meannot if you're respectfully
following up, like a couple ofweeks later and, like you just
(23:31):
said, I like to re-forward theoriginal message so they can see
the topics you know andeverything like that, and then
just give a hey, just wanted tocheck in.
I think so-and-so would be agreat guest for your show.
Let me know if you have anyquestions.
Right, it's not something big,it's not something long, it's
not whatever, but it's reallyredirecting them to that thing
below there.
And speaking of topics areanother thing that I think a lot
(23:51):
of people misstep on, in thesense that if you go all the way
back to my journalism days atOregon State, like you know, 20
years ago or whatever, thebiggest thing that we're always
trying to do is make it as easyas possible to get to the yes
right.
So when you come with reallygreat topics for a host, I gotta
(24:12):
tell you 9.9 out of 10 timesthe host is gonna choose one or
two of those topics, right, youare making it easy for them to
say yes because they aren'thaving to do any additional work
.
And what I mean by that isfolks are like sometimes I've
seen this in pitches, and I'msure you have too where they're
like I truly think they thinkthey're making life easier by
(24:36):
saying like okay, here are thecouple things that I'm an expert
in marketing, branding, sales.
You tell me what you want totalk about and I'm happy to come
on and talk about that.
You guys, no, no, now that hosthas to think about what they're
going to talk about with you.
They have to be, you know,doing this, research, et cetera.
No, you come with topics, okay,and the host can obviously be
(24:58):
like I want to tweak this alittle bit, which is great.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Let me just correct you on one thing.
The host does not need to thinkabout what you're going to be
an expert in.
They have to hit the delete keyon the email that you sent them
.
Because that is exactly what Ido to those emails I'm like no
delete.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Guys, I was being nice and Kendra's giving it to
you, real, okay, that's what Ido.
I delete it, it's gone, it'sgone.
But I think that's a really bigthing.
A lot of people kind of sleepon the topic, so they don't
think they're super important.
You know, to kind of beincluding and I'm telling you
right now it is super important.
The last mistake that I kind ofwant to say to people is, like,
(25:37):
don't just think the bigpodcasts are the only things
that are worth your time.
Ok, and this is really, reallyimportant.
Just like Kendra said, shesometimes has guests on.
They.
Let her know afterwards.
Hey, guess what I heard from acouple of people after your
episode aired.
You know, et cetera, et cetera,that's it, that's what we want,
right, a lot of people I talkto will be like, well, I don't
(26:00):
know if podcast is really worthit, or I'm just going to go
pitch, you know, eddiePorterfield, jenna Kutcher, pat
Flynn, you know, whatever,whoever the expert, the big, big
expert, celebrity is in yourindustry, and I'm here to tell
you I think that's a great goal.
Like I am not here to tell youlike, don't be pitching those
shows.
No, I'm not going to say that.
But you have to have put in thework before you are going to be
(26:23):
on those shows, Right?
And what I mean by that is youthink your first episode is
going to be one that gets100,000 downloads, like no, you
know that is not and youwouldn't even want it to be
because, like I said, you'regoing to sweat and stumble your
way through.
Like I said, you're going tosweat and stumble your way
through, so what I really wantyou focused on is the right
audiences and not getting caughtup on the size of the show,
which, by the way, you don'teven know.
(26:44):
That is not public information.
So you're kind of making anbest guest estimate.
We have some backend tools weuse, but for most people you are
making just an estimate of,like, what you think or what
size you think the show is.
But really it shouldn't matterif 10 people are listening or
10,000.
If they are the right audience,it is well worth your time.
(27:06):
I would always rather betalking in front of 10 people
that are my ideal audience than10,000 people that don't give a
crap about what I have to say.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Oh my gosh.
So I was on a meeting earlierthis week with a client and
their PR agency said I don't doPR because I just don't have the
patience for pitching.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I can pitch.
Podcast pitching, I think, is alittle bit different.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
But the PR agency was like, well, we've got to do a
lot of research to see whichshows are worth your time.
And I'm sitting there biting mytongue and it's bleeding
because I'm like you put her onlocal news, you put her on these
different things.
I'm like if we know thatthere's 10 people and I was
(27:50):
literally like in my mind going,if there were 10 people that
are her ideal audience, that wecan guarantee were there, that's
huge.
Yeah, because, think about it,go to a networking event.
I love chambers, I love mychamber networking events.
I love, you know, my.
I'm a member of Enforum here inMichigan, which is a women's
(28:11):
networking group.
How many people do you havequality conversations with at
each of those events?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Two, three, right, that's it, and it's a lot more
work than showing up on apodcast.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, and I think that you know, so 10 isn't so
bad.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
No, if they're the right people, I will always
advocate that.
It is worth your time to bedoing that because, to your
point at the beginning, they'relistening to you talk for 30
minutes.
They feel like they know you,they trust you.
This is why this type of workparticularly does so well for
service providers, our clientsthat are in the finance law
(28:54):
therapy worlds.
They kill it on podcastsbecause that trust factor is
upped so dramatically thatpeople are like I got it.
You know I'm finally talking tosomeone who understands.
We don't really open up aboutour finances or our legal
questions or things like thatwith people that we don't trust,
right?
So when someone has heard youon a podcast for 30 minutes and
(29:15):
they like you and they feel likethey resonate with what you're
saying, you better believethey're ready to book a
discovery call with you and seeabout taking the next step.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I love it, love it.
So thank you so so much, firstoff, for joining me, because I
think that this is, this isamazing, and I really hope that
if you're if you're watching orlistening, that you're taking
this to heart and that you'rereally thinking about okay, who
(29:44):
is my ideal audience?
What are those podcasts?
Let me go look for some andpitch myself right.
So give it a try.
Give it what's the worst thatcan happen, right?
What's the worst that canhappen right?
I remember when I was inSandler sales training, ken
Sewell, who was my trainer,always used to say there's only
two things to be afraid of deathand dismemberment.
And getting a no from a podcasthost or silence is not either
(30:07):
of those.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, and, by the way , you will get those.
You're going to get no's,you're going to get silence.
So just know that that's alsogoing to happen and don't let
that be something that holds youback.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, so get pitching yourself for podcasts.
Have a topic that you can talkabout.
Lists are great.
You know again things that aregoing to move the needle, that
are of interest to your audience.
So again, thank you so much.
I think that this has beenfantastic.
I can't let you go, though,without asking the question that
I ask everybody on this show.
(30:38):
This show is called ImperfectMarketing, because marketing is
anything but a perfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
That I need to track my marketing, and I think that
this is like look y'all, I'm anEnneagram 7 outgrowing Like I
just want to have fun, I want tohit the vibe, I want to do what
I do Right, and it took memultiple years of not tracking.
If I'm being perfectly frank,even though I ran this business
and we tracked on behalf of ourclients, I didn't really track
(31:08):
my own marketing work right, andso that has been my biggest
lesson.
Like I said, this last year2024, the whole year I tracked
that visibility, kpi, the eventsthat I was going to, et cetera
and that has made such a hugedifference in how I move forward
and kind of where I put my timeand my energy, because I really
(31:29):
have been able to say thisworked for me, or this didn't
necessarily hit for me like itdid, or I made great contacts
there, or whatever.
So, as not fun as it may be,tracking is definitely the
biggest thing that I've learned.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Tracking is such a huge thing, and again, I do it
for my clients, but I've fallenoff the wagon several times for
myself.
So, that is another one of myhabit goals for this year, and I
have actually been debriefingeach all the stuff that I did or
(32:02):
didn't do, because you know,there's always things that you
had good intentions.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think that
that's so helpful for movingforward and for me, like even
the work that we've been doingto track a lot more.
We now have multiple casestudies on just me alone and,
hey, when I did this, this wasthe result we saw.
When I did this, this was theresult I saw, and those have
been really popular emails andreally popular posts for people
(32:27):
to kind of see like, oh, this issomething she's doing and
here's the exact numbers thatkind of came out of that work.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That's just so powerful, and people love case
studies, right.
They love to see real results,and if you can share yours,
you're not having to getpermission from clients and
everything else that goes alongwith it.
So there's just so much there.
Well, thank you again.
So much, christina, for joiningme today on Imperfect Marketing
.
I really appreciate it and Ihope that those listening and
(32:57):
watching that you got somethingout of it too, and if you did,
it would really help me out ifyou would rate or subscribe
wherever you're listening orwatching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, kendra Korman,and today I am joined by
Christina Lenkowski, and I wasworking on practicing that one.
I'm super excited to have youhere and joining me.
We're going to be talking aboutpodcasting and podcast pitching
specifically, so I'm reallyexcited to hear what she has to
(00:49):
tell us.
So welcome, christina, and howdid you get into pitching
podcasts?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you, kendra.
I'm so excited to be here,particularly in front of my
fellow kind of marketing nerds,because that is the world that I
have been in for almost 20years at this point.
In the marketing and PR world.
I spent a lot of time atagencies, working in-house and
agencies for all kinds ofdifferent organizations, and
(01:15):
really what led me here is Idecided after I had my daughter
that I was going to start acourse.
I was going to have a course ontourism PR.
I was obviously going to make amillion dollars in my sleep,
like I drank all the Kool-Aid.
It was going to be easy peasy,like, let me do this, let me
just make this course reallyquick and then basically retire
(01:36):
Right, that was like my.
That was like my plan at thistime.
This was like 2017, 2018.
The way that they were teachingto promote like your course was
to essentially put a bunch ofmoney into ads, do a live
webinar and then sell via emailand obviously make a million
dollars in your sleep, like Isaid.
And so when I went to go launchmy course the first time, I did
(02:01):
exactly those steps.
Like I was like, okay, this iswhat they're saying, this is
what I'm going to do, and so Iwant to be clear on this.
I was teaching a course onpublicity and I did no publicity
.
Okay, so this is where.
Where I was at, I was like,okay, this is what I'm going to
do.
So, in a shock, to no oneexcept for me, this did not go
(02:23):
well and I only ended up sellingyou know a couple, a couple of
courses, whatever, during thatand I was like, okay, this is
not, this is not working.
I remember my husband was likewhat are we doing here?
And I was like I'll figure itout.
Like don't, don't worry aboutit.
And so what I did after that is, I tapped back into my
intuition and I was like you'reteaching a course on publicity,
(02:46):
you know how to do publicity.
You've been doing it at thatpoint for well over a decade, so
let's just start sending outsome pitches.
And at that point, podcasts werea thing, but they weren't the
thing that they are today.
Right, they weren't necessarilylike such a part of our
everyday lives and whateverybody was listening to, et
(03:06):
cetera, but I started to pitchmyself onto podcasts that were
full of my ideal audience andthe difference in my business
was just night and day.
People were really hearing meon a podcast, they were reaching
out to me, they were purchasingmy course, they were asking me
to come speak at something, etcetera.
And so when COVID hit, I hadalready kind of had an inkling
to change what I was doing a bit.
(03:28):
And that just kind of pushed mefull force, because it was so
easy to do podcasts from yourhome that I started teaching
people how to guest on or pitchthemselves on podcasts.
Guest on podcasts.
But by the end of that year Ihad so many people that were
like, yeah, could you just do it, that I started pitching people
on the podcast and grew it tothe agency that we have today.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
That is so cool.
Thank you so much for sharingyour journey too, because I
think it's yeah, you know it'swe're not making money in our
sleep, right?
I mean, it all takes work, itall takes effort.
Yes, it can to an extent.
You could maybe, you know, geta sale while you're asleep, but
you did work that led up to thatand there's a lot of work
(04:13):
involved, and I love that youcovered that, because I think,
you know, yeah, we all sometimeslike to drink the Kool-Aid and
it's not always what's real forus.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So thank you, and it's not our fault.
We're marketed.
We're marketed to, you know.
I mean, that's that is what itis, and you know, it's just kind
of figuring out what is goingto work for you, what isn't
going to work for you.
And for me, podcasts ended upbeing a really great way and
they continue to be a reallygreat way to get my name out
(04:43):
there and sell my service andfor people to you know, know who
I am, and what I do.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I love podcasting for that reason, because it really
creates a connection, right,they see you, they hear you,
they.
They feel like they get to knowyou more than anything else,
right, and I think that that'sthat's part of why it's so
powerful.
I love it when I hear from myguests and they're like hey,
(05:08):
kendra, by the way, someonecontacted me off of it, or I got
two phone calls after yourepisode went live, and I'm like,
yay, that means that I'mserving my audience too, right,
that means that those who arelistening and watching are
relating to what we're talkingabout, and I think that that's
so important.
So let's talk a little bitabout the mistakes that people
(05:31):
make when pitching themselves toget on a podcast, since that's
what you've built your businesson.
What are some of those mistakes?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I think that really the biggest thing, kendra, that
I like to bring up is there area lot of people that are
listening to us right now andthey are like I'm never doing
that.
Like they are very in theirhead about like yeah, yeah, yeah
, no, I see how podcasts couldbe really good for me to go on,
but I'm never going to do that.
Right, I'm not outgoing, I'mnot whatever.
(05:57):
This is not something that I'mever going to do, and I really
want you to shift that mindset.
First of all, most of ourclients are introverts.
So if you are an introvert andyou're hearing this, I want you
to just completely shift it,because really, all you're
having is a one-on-oneconversation, okay.
So I just want you to thinkabout that.
Like Kendra and I are justtalking, there's not a big
audience in front of us, there'snot a lot of other people there
(06:19):
, not anything like that.
We are just having a one-on-oneconversation.
But the other thing I want youto think about is what's the
worst thing that can happen?
Okay, and I want you to reallythink about that.
And for most people, the thingsthat are going to come to their
mind are, you know, somethingalong the lines of I mess up
what I'm saying.
Okay, Kendra has just had todeal with me having technical
(06:41):
issues for the past multipleminutes.
Okay, this is fine, becausethis can all be edited.
Okay, 99% of the podcasts thatyou do are not going to be live,
and if it's not, I would say ifyou're doing your first podcast
, don't have it be a live one.
Okay, maybe pick another one.
You can do that one a littlebit later on.
Okay, but for the most part,most podcasts are not live.
(07:03):
All right, a host is not out toget you.
Ok, they are trying to put outthe absolute best content that
they possibly can, and so what Imean by that is I just had to
say to Kendra hey, do you mindasking me that that question
again, so that I can start fromthe top and the beginning and
give an answer?
This is perfectly fine to doduring an interview.
(07:23):
So if you're really, reallystressed about messing something
up, please know I accidentallyswear, I accidentally combine
words, I accidentally do thesethings all the time, and
sometimes we leave them inbecause that's me, that's real
life, that's what happens.
But also sometimes I might say,hey, do you mind editing that
out?
I just feel like I didn'tanswer that the best that I
could, if I could start again,et cetera.
(07:43):
Not, I just feel like I didn'tanswer that.
The best that I could, if Icould start again, et cetera,
not a problem, okay.
So I want you to get that, Iwant you to get that out of your
head.
Really, any kind of variationof I mess up what I'm saying,
okay.
Then there's also people thatare going to say something to
the effect of well, what ifpeople are listening to me and
then they think she doesn't knowwhat she's talking about, or he
(08:04):
doesn't know what he's talkingabout, right, like, what an
idiot, dead of death.
And I am here to tell you thatmost people are thinking about
themselves most of the time.
Okay, they are not thinkingabout you.
That doesn't mean they're notlistening to you.
I wanna be very clear on that.
But what it means is, whenthey're listening to you, they
are more so thinking how can Iapply this to me?
(08:27):
To me, okay.
So I think that that's a reallyimportant thing for you to
remember is, people are notagain, I don't listen to a
podcast and just go.
What a idiot, okay, like thatis.
I can honestly say I don't thinkI've ever thought that when
hearing someone on a podcast andKendra's shaking her head, she
agrees, right, we are reallythinking about how can I apply
this in my life, in my business,right, et cetera, going forward
(08:51):
.
So I think that's important, butultimately, what I want you to
think about is I truly, trulybelieve this the worst thing
that can happen, the worst thingis you do not put yourself out
there because your business willnot grow.
I talk to people time and timeagain just keep wondering why
their business isn't growing,why their business isn't growing
(09:12):
and yet they are not gettingvisible in front of new
audiences on a regular basis.
Okay, and podcasts are a greateasy way to be doing that.
So if you're kind of stuck inthat place where you're just
like I'm not seeing my businessgrow and yet you really take a
good hard look at yourself andare like I'm also never getting
in front of new audiencesbecause I'm going to be real to
(09:33):
you Social media doesn't count,okay, and I can talk about that,
I can get more in depth on that, but you need to really be
strongly then consideringguesting on other people's
podcasts is a really, reallygreat way to be getting out
there.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I mess up all the time All the time.
Nine times out of ten.
I leave it in Roll with it.
Yep, but I love the people arethinking about themselves.
Yeah, I don't I've disagreedwith people on podcasts that
I've listened to 100%.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yes, I've had some different reactions, but I've
never thought, oh my gosh,they're a total idiot Ever 100%,
100% I don't think ever, and Ithink that's an important piece
there is that that does not meanI've agreed 100% with every
person I hear in a podcast.
That's a really, really goodpoint.
But it also doesn't mean that Ithen think that that's not a
(10:25):
smart thought, right?
Or that they must not know whatthey're talking about, because
I disagree with one thing.
You know different from them,ok, so I love that you bring up
that point of like.
It doesn't mean that people aregoing to necessarily disagree
with you but they're not sittingthere thinking they obviously
don't know what they're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Right now and again we've been having technical
issues.
I actually think that that's agreat example.
I actually think that that's agreat example.
It happens.
I was guesting on a podcast.
My internet went out and she'slike hey, let's just reschedule
Called Comcast.
I had them come out.
They found out that it was afaulty wire that went bad in the
last three to five years I haveno idea when or where, like
(11:07):
stuff, life happens.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Life happens 100%.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yes, and that's okay.
Most hosts are going to.
Life happens right.
Life happens 100%.
Yes, and that's okay.
Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Most hosts are gonna be very understanding.
Most hosts are gonna be veryunderstanding of that and also
understand that life happens,right.
You know we've had clients thatare literally like writing us
from a hurricane and they'relike I'm trying, but I don't
think I'm gonna be able to geton today.
It's like, yeah, obviously youknow what I mean.
And like we reach out to ourhost and they're like, yeah, of
course we can reschedule, right,like it's it's okay.
You know, life does happen.
(11:39):
Things come up.
I was telling Kendra before wehopped on.
I've been dealing with a lot ofvertigo in the past month to
two months and I've had toreschedule a couple of podcast
appearances and that sucks.
I don't want to do that.
I don't like doing that.
But I also know I'm not goingto bring the best amount of
value or the best like versionof myself to that if I'm not
feeling great, right, I thinkthat the best you can do is the
(12:05):
best you can do, right, but it'sabsolutely getting out there
and I also want to mention that,no matter what, you are going
to sweat and stumble your waythrough your first couple of
podcast interviews Okay.
So like, just be prepared forthat.
You know, when we work with ourclients, we get them booked on
all these shows and they'llalways even if they've been on
podcasts before.
There's always like some nervesfor those first ones, but by
the time you've done a couple,you're going to feel a lot more
(12:27):
comfortable.
And by the time you've done 10,15, you know 20, you're going
to be an old pro at it.
It's just like anything.
It's a muscle.
Exercising it as much aspossible, you're going to get
stronger and better at it.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I agree, I don't know any podcaster that would
actually encourage you to listento their early episodes.
Don't listen to mine.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, well, now I'm going to.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
But it was stiff.
It wasn't a conversation, itwas a list of questions.
It was thank God for thepatience of my guests because,
yeah, it was not the best itcould have been, but if I didn't
do that I wouldn't be where I'mat now and I think it's a lot
more conversational and a lotbetter, and if you're listening,
(13:13):
hopefully you agree too, andthat's why you're listening.
So all right.
So you mentioned social mediaand getting in front of other
audiences and how social mediadoesn't count.
Talk to me a little bit moreabout that.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yes, and what I mean by that is I'm not anti-social
media.
Okay, like, I want to be very,very clear on that.
I have a social media presence,et cetera.
But one thing that I thinkpeople mistake a lot is thinking
that social media is going toget them in front of new
audiences regularly.
Ok, I will talk to people a lotand they'll be like, no, I just
(13:45):
need to post more.
And I'm like you don't, youactually don't need to do that,
Right?
And but in their mind it's beenso ground into them because
social media is such a part ofour life Like, well, if I just
post more, more people are goingto see it.
No, that's not necessarily howthat works.
And, kendra, I don't know ifyou have some insight into that
too, or hearing from otherpeople also when they say that,
but occasionally and I'm nothere to say that you'll never
(14:08):
get in front of new people onsocial media Again, don't get me
wrong, but that cannot be yourmain strategy for getting in
front of new people regularly.
It is a great way to build yourbrand, build your equity and
build your following that youalready have.
But when it comes to newaudiences, again, it's gonna
happen, but it's not.
It shouldn't be the main thing.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Well, and sometimes posting more will get you in
front of less people even Well,and sometimes posting more will
get you in front of less peopleeven inside your existing
network.
So it depends on the algorithm.
And you know social media isrented land Guesting on other
people's podcasts they own thatright.
They're putting it on theirsocials, which is going to get
(14:49):
you in front of other audience,right.
They're putting you on,potentially, their website.
If they're hosting it on theirwebsite, they've got some sort
of website.
It can be coming up in search.
They've got a loyal audience.
Even if it's like 5, 10, 15, 20people a week, that's another
handful of people that arelistening to like 15, 20, 30
(15:11):
quality minutes of conversationwith you.
Yep, where do you get that?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You hit the nail on the head and I think an
important thing that I talkabout a lot with people this is
something I personally have inmy business and I recommend is
having a visibility KPI, sohaving a certain thing you track
in your business which is howoften you are getting in front
of new audiences.
Okay, Now, this doesn't have tobe just podcasts, Like I wanna
(15:36):
be clear on that podcastguesting.
That can also mean attending anevent, right, and that could be
like for me.
I live in Boise, Idaho, likeI'm pretty much always going out
of town to attend an event,right, so that could be that.
But that could also be a localnetworking event, right, If
that's something that you haveavailable to you.
That could be even just having aone-on-one coffee date or a
small group coffee date withsome people that you're going to
(15:57):
be talking about your businesswith.
Right, that can be doing a blogpost on someone else's platform
, right, Doing, potentiallydoing like, let's say, a
LinkedIn Live again, wheresomeone else is kind of the host
and you are getting out there.
But what are those ways thatyou are regularly getting in
front of new audiences and notthe things that, to your point,
(16:19):
you own right, Not the thingsthat you are owning and the
audiences that you already have,but these new places that
you're showing up in front of.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So, yes, agreed, a hundred percent.
Like there's so many differentways to do this.
If this isn't the right fit foryou, there's other options and
you can still use these lessonsthat you're talking about in
these points.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
They apply to these other ones too, have a person my
, my KPI is one time a week onaverage.
On average, so, meaning thereare some weeks when I'm not, I'm
not getting in front of anybody, right.
But then there's some weekswhere I'm on two or three
different opportunities or I,you know, attend a big event and
I attend multiple things, right.
(17:03):
But this is something that Itracked the whole of 2024.
I was like, okay, I'm reallygoing to put my money where my
mouth is.
I'm going to track this.
I'm going to see what happensby me hitting this visibility
KPI.
Personally, I also set a goalof attending 12 out-of-town
events as well.
So, an average of one a month,understanding that some months
(17:24):
there's going to be more thanothers, right, et cetera.
But really, looking at whatthis does to my business, what
kind of shifts because of it andit was really fascinating.
And for you, one time a weekmight seem like a lot Like.
You might be like, oh, I don'tknow about that, although I
would make the argument if youwere at the beginning of your
business.
You have the time to actuallybe setting that type of a goal.
(17:44):
But let's say, I'm gonna giveyou the most is once every other
week.
Okay, that's the most I'm goingto give you to have on average
for that visibility KPI, and Iwant you to think about that.
At the end of a year, let's say, you will have had 26 different
opportunities, that you havegotten in front of new audiences
and again that could be amixture of different things and
(18:05):
I can pretty much guarantee ifyou've been getting in front of
the right audiences and talkingto the right people, your
business is going to lookdifferent than it did at the
beginning of that year.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yes, I and I love that I set a goal of guesting on
22 podcasts this year 24, 24, Ithink, or maybe 25.
I can't even I should write.
I should remember, because Ijust looked at it this morning
and I've done seven so far andwe're recording this in early
March.
So I am right on task or righton schedule.
(18:34):
You're getting there.
You're getting there.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
And that's actually the number we, when we have
annual clients that's the numberwe're getting them on is 24.
So, like that average of two amonth is great.
And then you know, we love themto, of course, be doing more
than that, but what they knowthat they've at least got that
taken care of for the year where, like hey, I'm already hitting
this once every other week, andnow there's other opportunities,
these ones that are on top ofit is just, you know, it's gravy
(18:58):
right, it's cherry on top foryou to be able to do even more
than that.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, and again I set a goal because I had not set a
goal before and I was just sortof randomly, when they came,
when the opportunities presentedthemselves, doing it.
Now it's a focused effort.
So every month I reach out topeople to see if they would like
to have me on their podcast.
So what other missteps arepeople making when pitching?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I think that a big misstep people are making when
pitching is, quite frankly wecall it in the industry taking a
spray and pray approach topitching and I guarantee Kendra
will have some insight as thisfrom a podcast host perspective
of just getting pitches that arein no way personalized to that
particular host or thatparticular show right.
(19:44):
I think people kind of get inthis mindset of like, well, if
it's a numbers game, right, likeI'm just gonna find a list of
podcast hosts and I'm just gonnasend the exact same email
podcast hosts and I'm just goingto send the exact same email
out to every single one of themand just kind of pray, like I
said that, like a couple comethrough, right, and that is not
at all the way that I recommenddoing your pitch work right.
(20:06):
We have a much higher successrate of getting our clients on
podcasts because we are takingthe time to really look at that
show, look at their audience.
And I'm not saying we'relistening to like a full episode
before we're pitching, but weare really taking, you know,
let's say, 10, 15 minutes to doa great deep dive on that show,
(20:27):
listen to a little bit of it,watch the summary of it, you
know, et cetera, so that when wedo go to pitch, that host is
very aware that like hey, we'vetaken some time here, right.
Like we are aware of what youraudience is looking for and why
we think this particular clientwould be a great fit for your
show.
And I think that that's such animportant thing for you know,
everyone to understand is youwanna be getting on quality
(20:50):
shows, right, so make sure thatyou're putting some effort into
that.
And then I'd love to hear fromyou on just kind of the
differences and pitches that youreceive.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Oh, sometimes I'm like, what are you even talking?
I don't even talk about that.
They're like, hi, we've gotsomebody you know that we'd like
to have on your podcast and hetalks about real estate.
And I'm like, okay, that that'sgreat, but I don't talk about
real estate.
That's not my audience.
I mean, yes, they're, they'revery well, maybe, and I'm aware
(21:23):
that there's a few realtors thatlisten to the show, but no,
like that's just not what Icover.
And it's like you didn't evenlook at the description of what
I do, let alone listen to anepisode, right.
And so I mean, if you show meyou listened to an episode, that
you took that effort, you moveup a lot higher in the list of
(21:45):
people that I'm willing to haveon the show, right, and that's
important.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
It is important.
And another thing that's reallyimportant that a lot of people
sleep on is follow-up too.
We are really really big infollow-up.
In our agency we're followingup always if we haven't heard
back for I mean, you know, notfor not till a couple of weeks
later.
But I just mean that that is ageneral part of our work.
That we're doing is thefollow-up as well, because
podcast hosts are human justlike all the rest of us, right?
(22:10):
They flag stuff, they mean toget back to something they don't
, right they're, somethinghappens and they need to go take
care of it.
So I always always say, like,make sure you're doing that
follow-up work too, because wehave booked many a podcast based
on the follow-up work that wedo.
So that's definitely a misstepthat we can see people do, but
just schedule that time intoyour calendar so that you can be
(22:33):
making it happen.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, and the follow-up is really important
because if I see that you'rereaching out and you're reaching
out more than once again movesyou higher up in the list, I
probably recognize the name.
Or if you forwarded theoriginal email, I'm like, oh of
it, but it's not my job.
It's not what pays the billsall the time.
(23:00):
The results of it do right, butnot podcasting itself right, so
it's not always 100% the numberone priority in my world.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, it's a priority , but it's not the priority, and
so I think that's important tokind of understand that
distinction there for hosts andwhy it's okay to follow up.
I'll definitely have peoplethat'll be like I don't know, am
I going to be bothering them?
And I'm like, well, no, I meannot if you're respectfully
following up, like a couple ofweeks later and, like you just
(23:31):
said, I like to re-forward theoriginal message so they can see
the topics you know andeverything like that, and then
just give a hey, just wanted tocheck in.
I think so-and-so would be agreat guest for your show.
Let me know if you have anyquestions.
Right, it's not something big,it's not something long, it's
not whatever, but it's reallyredirecting them to that thing
below there.
And speaking of topics areanother thing that I think a lot
(23:51):
of people misstep on, in thesense that if you go all the way
back to my journalism days atOregon State, like you know, 20
years ago or whatever, thebiggest thing that we're always
trying to do is make it as easyas possible to get to the yes
right.
So when you come with reallygreat topics for a host, I gotta
(24:12):
tell you 9.9 out of 10 timesthe host is gonna choose one or
two of those topics, right, youare making it easy for them to
say yes because they aren'thaving to do any additional work
.
And what I mean by that isfolks are like sometimes I've
seen this in pitches, and I'msure you have too where they're
like I truly think they thinkthey're making life easier by
(24:36):
saying like okay, here are thecouple things that I'm an expert
in marketing, branding, sales.
You tell me what you want totalk about and I'm happy to come
on and talk about that.
You guys, no, no, now that hosthas to think about what they're
going to talk about with you.
They have to be, you know,doing this, research, et cetera.
No, you come with topics, okay,and the host can obviously be
(24:58):
like I want to tweak this alittle bit, which is great.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Let me just correct you on one thing.
The host does not need to thinkabout what you're going to be
an expert in.
They have to hit the delete keyon the email that you sent them
.
Because that is exactly what Ido to those emails I'm like no
delete.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Guys, I was being nice and Kendra's giving it to
you, real, okay, that's what Ido.
I delete it, it's gone, it'sgone.
But I think that's a really bigthing.
A lot of people kind of sleepon the topic, so they don't
think they're super important.
You know, to kind of beincluding and I'm telling you
right now it is super important.
The last mistake that I kind ofwant to say to people is, like,
(25:37):
don't just think the bigpodcasts are the only things
that are worth your time.
Ok, and this is really, reallyimportant.
Just like Kendra said, shesometimes has guests on.
They.
Let her know afterwards.
Hey, guess what I heard from acouple of people after your
episode aired.
You know, et cetera, et cetera,that's it, that's what we want,
right, a lot of people I talkto will be like, well, I don't
(26:00):
know if podcast is really worthit, or I'm just going to go
pitch, you know, eddiePorterfield, jenna Kutcher, pat
Flynn, you know, whatever,whoever the expert, the big, big
expert, celebrity is in yourindustry, and I'm here to tell
you I think that's a great goal.
Like I am not here to tell youlike, don't be pitching those
shows.
No, I'm not going to say that.
But you have to have put in thework before you are going to be
(26:23):
on those shows, Right?
And what I mean by that is youthink your first episode is
going to be one that gets100,000 downloads, like no, you
know that is not and youwouldn't even want it to be
because, like I said, you'regoing to sweat and stumble your
way through.
Like I said, you're going tosweat and stumble your way
through, so what I really wantyou focused on is the right
audiences and not getting caughtup on the size of the show,
which, by the way, you don'teven know.
(26:44):
That is not public information.
So you're kind of making anbest guest estimate.
We have some backend tools weuse, but for most people you are
making just an estimate of,like, what you think or what
size you think the show is.
But really it shouldn't matterif 10 people are listening or
10,000.
If they are the right audience,it is well worth your time.
(27:06):
I would always rather betalking in front of 10 people
that are my ideal audience than10,000 people that don't give a
crap about what I have to say.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Oh my gosh.
So I was on a meeting earlierthis week with a client and
their PR agency said I don't doPR because I just don't have the
patience for pitching.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I can pitch.
Podcast pitching, I think, is alittle bit different.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
But the PR agency was like, well, we've got to do a
lot of research to see whichshows are worth your time.
And I'm sitting there biting mytongue and it's bleeding
because I'm like you put her onlocal news, you put her on these
different things.
I'm like if we know thatthere's 10 people and I was
(27:50):
literally like in my mind going,if there were 10 people that
are her ideal audience, that wecan guarantee were there, that's
huge.
Yeah, because, think about it,go to a networking event.
I love chambers, I love mychamber networking events.
I love, you know, my.
I'm a member of Enforum here inMichigan, which is a women's
(28:11):
networking group.
How many people do you havequality conversations with at
each of those events?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Two, three, right, that's it, and it's a lot more
work than showing up on apodcast.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, and I think that you know, so 10 isn't so
bad.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
No, if they're the right people, I will always
advocate that.
It is worth your time to bedoing that because, to your
point at the beginning, they'relistening to you talk for 30
minutes.
They feel like they know you,they trust you.
This is why this type of workparticularly does so well for
service providers, our clientsthat are in the finance law
(28:54):
therapy worlds.
They kill it on podcastsbecause that trust factor is
upped so dramatically thatpeople are like I got it.
You know I'm finally talking tosomeone who understands.
We don't really open up aboutour finances or our legal
questions or things like thatwith people that we don't trust,
right?
So when someone has heard youon a podcast for 30 minutes and
(29:15):
they like you and they feel likethey resonate with what you're
saying, you better believethey're ready to book a
discovery call with you and seeabout taking the next step.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I love it, love it.
So thank you so so much, firstoff, for joining me, because I
think that this is, this isamazing, and I really hope that
if you're if you're watching orlistening, that you're taking
this to heart and that you'rereally thinking about okay, who
(29:44):
is my ideal audience?
What are those podcasts?
Let me go look for some andpitch myself right.
So give it a try.
Give it what's the worst thatcan happen, right?
What's the worst that canhappen right?
I remember when I was inSandler sales training, ken
Sewell, who was my trainer,always used to say there's only
two things to be afraid of deathand dismemberment.
And getting a no from a podcasthost or silence is not either
(30:07):
of those.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, and, by the way , you will get those.
You're going to get no's,you're going to get silence.
So just know that that's alsogoing to happen and don't let
that be something that holds youback.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, so get pitching yourself for podcasts.
Have a topic that you can talkabout.
Lists are great.
You know again things that aregoing to move the needle, that
are of interest to your audience.
So again, thank you so much.
I think that this has beenfantastic.
I can't let you go, though,without asking the question that
I ask everybody on this show.
(30:38):
This show is called ImperfectMarketing, because marketing is
anything but a perfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
That I need to track my marketing, and I think that
this is like look y'all, I'm anEnneagram 7 outgrowing Like I
just want to have fun, I want tohit the vibe, I want to do what
I do Right, and it took memultiple years of not tracking.
If I'm being perfectly frank,even though I ran this business
and we tracked on behalf of ourclients, I didn't really track
(31:08):
my own marketing work right, andso that has been my biggest
lesson.
Like I said, this last year2024, the whole year I tracked
that visibility, kpi, the eventsthat I was going to, et cetera
and that has made such a hugedifference in how I move forward
and kind of where I put my timeand my energy, because I really
(31:29):
have been able to say thisworked for me, or this didn't
necessarily hit for me like itdid, or I made great contacts
there, or whatever.
So, as not fun as it may be,tracking is definitely the
biggest thing that I've learned.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Tracking is such a huge thing, and again, I do it
for my clients, but I've fallenoff the wagon several times for
myself.
So, that is another one of myhabit goals for this year, and I
have actually been debriefingeach all the stuff that I did or
(32:02):
didn't do, because you know,there's always things that you
had good intentions.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think that
that's so helpful for movingforward and for me, like even
the work that we've been doingto track a lot more.
We now have multiple casestudies on just me alone and,
hey, when I did this, this wasthe result we saw.
When I did this, this was theresult I saw, and those have
been really popular emails andreally popular posts for people
(32:27):
to kind of see like, oh, this issomething she's doing and
here's the exact numbers thatkind of came out of that work.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That's just so powerful, and people love case
studies, right.
They love to see real results,and if you can share yours,
you're not having to getpermission from clients and
everything else that goes alongwith it.
So there's just so much there.
Well, thank you again.
So much, christina, for joiningme today on Imperfect Marketing
.
I really appreciate it and Ihope that those listening and
(32:57):
watching that you got somethingout of it too, and if you did,
it would really help me out ifyou would rate or subscribe
wherever you're listening orwatching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.