June 12, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Renee, a journalist-turned-storytelling strategist, to dive deep into the art and impact of storytelling for brands, solopreneurs, and content creators. Together, we explore how personal narratives not only humanize a business but can also be the most powerful marketing strategy available.
Renee shares her journey from Capitol Hill reporting to consulting business owners on how to shape and share stories that stick. We discuss:
Why Storytelling is a Marketing Superpower
Balancing Vulnerability and Credibility
Finding Stories in the Everyday
Turning Life Into Email Content
Key Takeaways for Marketers
- Storytelling is both a practice and a mindset—start noticing, not just narrating
- Personal connection beats polished perfection when it comes to content
- Sharing your point of view and experience builds the know, like, and trust factor faster than any trend
Whether you’re a reluctant sharer or a natural open book, Renee’s practical storytelling tips will help you build authentic connections with your audience—and grow your business in the process.
Connect with Renee Frojo:
WEBSITE: https://www.reneelynnfrojo.com/
INSTAGRAM - https://www.instagram.com/reneelynnfrojo/
LINKEDIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/renee-lynn-frojo/
X - https://x.com/frojofeed
Are you ready to start seeing stories everywhere? Tune in for a fresh, real, and encouraging take on how to use storytelling as your marketing strategy.
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
Watch here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect scienceand that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello, and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Korman,and today I am excited because
we're going to be talking aboutstorytelling and how your story
is your strategy, and I'm joinedtoday with Renee and I'm dying
to know more about how did youget into storytelling and why is
this important to you.
Thanks for having me Kendra.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I have always been a storyteller.
I started my career injournalism so I was telling
stories from the very start.
They weren't very interestingstories at least to me they were
interesting to somebody.
But my first job out of collegewas at FDA News.
I was reporting on drug devicesand pharmaceuticals and FDA
regulatory news Exciting stuff,really exciting stuff that I had
(01:09):
no idea what I was talkingabout.
But the part I loved about itwas really the reporting piece
getting to talk to people,getting to talk to experts,
getting insights and digging upnews where I could.
And I also got to be on CapitolHill.
So I got to see the innerworkings of how our government
operates.
And I became jaded very quicklybut also felt very
(01:30):
self-important as a 21-year-oldwith my little press badge.
So it wasn't all bad.
But I got into more interestingjournalism later in my career.
I ended up working for the SanFrancisco Business Times.
I freelanced for the SanFrancisco Chronicle San
Francisco Business Times.
I freelanced for the SanFrancisco Chronicle and I got to
tell stories about smallbusinesses and startups and
philanthropists because that wasone of my beats and nonprofits.
(01:53):
So I really I was tellingstories and then I got into
journalism when the wholelandscape was shifting because
of social media and I quicklyrealized that it wasn't just
media organizations anymore thatheld the power.
Anyone had the ability to thentell their own story, build
their own mini media empire ifthey wanted to, and build a
(02:16):
platform, whether it was anindividual or a brand, and the
most iconic and best brands weredoing that.
So that's when I decided toshift out of journalism and then
into essentially the world ofcontent, marketing and brand
building to help businesses andnow increasingly small business
owners and solopreneurs telltheir own stories.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I love that.
I love storytelling becausestorytelling connects you with
your audience, right, you wantthat know like and trust factor
and I feel like stories do that.
How do you see audiencesconnecting?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
with stories.
I think audiences pretty muchonly connect with stories.
You said it earlier when wewere talking.
You know, one of your bestperforming newsletters this year
was a personal story, right,about your mother helping your
mother and how that changedthings for you.
And I see that all the time,once clients I work with, or
(03:10):
once I really started shiftinginto really taking a
storytelling-led approach to mymarketing, how it just opened up
the world.
What I like to tell people isthat we're constantly making
quick judgments about someone'scredibility, right, and the
biggest thing that people areafraid about is that if they
open up, if we're talking aboutsolopreneurs and service-based
business owners, right, tellingtheir story it's a little bit
(03:30):
different with brands, butfollow similar rules.
The biggest concern or biggestfear, one of them, is that if I
tell personal stories and it'snot related to my business, it's
going to damage my credibility.
Right, but credibility isreally measured by two things,
which is warmth and competence.
So competence is where you'resharing your expertise, you're
(03:52):
sharing what you know, you knowyou're developing rapport based
on your ideas.
But competence without warmth,without relatability, you know,
without connection, falls flat.
Right, then you're just like anexpert experting all day and
it's hard to connect, it's hardto understand, it's hard to see
yourself right and what they'retalking about, and then too much
(04:13):
warmth without expertise, right, or without competency, then
also it's just like.
Then you're just, you know,building a friendship, probably
online, and doing more of theparasocial relationship thing
which can lead to business, butreally ideally it's a
combination of the two, andstorytelling stories are just
the most effective tool we haveat our disposal to do that, to
(04:36):
accomplish those things.
Yeah, it is the core of my ownmarketing strategy and what I
teach people to do, because,like anything, it's something
that you have to learn how to do, especially for different
mediums, depending on whereyou're showing up, and it's a
matter of practicing it, likelearning the tools and then
putting it into practice.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So I come across people all the time that do not
want to share the personal sideof their lives and I tell them
that's okay.
It doesn't have to be, you know, super deeply personal, right?
You don't have to be like, youknow, opening the closet doors
and letting all the skeletonsout or anything like that, right
(05:17):
?
I think that there's ways to dothat without posting pictures
of the kids or your husband orspouse or significant other, or
they don't have to be involvedin every piece of that.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Can you be personal withoutbeing without oversharing?
For those who are concernedthat it's oversharing yeah,
(05:39):
absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I.
That's the biggest thing I runinto as well.
People are worried aboutoversharing.
I have a couple of thoughts onthat.
I would encourage you to juststart small right and sharing
things that you notice thatrelate back to what you do, that
also keep your audience in mind.
It can start with sharingthings that you just notice
(06:01):
about what's going on in yourindustry and giving it your own
personal take right.
So it's like I noticed this.
This is how I see it.
This is what my experiencetells me.
Yeah, you can also sharepersonal work experiences,
things that you're hearingunderstanding with your clients
Right Every day.
(06:38):
So those are all the littlemicro stories that you could
tell that don't necessarily needto reveal, you know, make you
tick what kind of a personyou're like to work with and
just testing it and seeing howit feels, you'll see that it
unlocks an entirely new level ofengagement and relatability and
(06:59):
trust and connection and allthese things that just explode
your business.
So I was really exploring thisearlier this year, like what is
the line right?
What is the line between toovulnerable or too raw?
You know where it couldpotentially damage your
credibility and everyone alwaysshares the same advice.
It's like share from the scar,not from the wound.
(07:20):
Right, make sure there's somedistance and you have some
perspective so that you can wrapit up in a nice little takeaway
or insight that you've learnedand that is a gift to your
audience, right, your potentialclient or customer.
But then I was like is italways that way?
Does it always need to be thatway?
Because I've seen someincredibly courageous displays
(07:42):
of vulnerability that have blownmy mind, that have like gone
beyond even my comfort level ofwhat I'm willing to share.
And it was like the owner ofthis marketing agency who works
with, you know really big fundedstartups you know very
successful, and she did aYouTube video about how she got
diagnosed with borderlinepersonality disorder and how it
(08:05):
was impacting her work and howshe was making a push and an
open call to publicly talk aboutmental health and publicly talk
about mental health strugglesand how it comes into her
business.
And then there was anotherwoman whose parents both passed
away and so she was kind of likeopenly exploring grief and how
it was impacting her work onLinkedIn.
(08:28):
And then I started collectingthese examples of and I reached
out to all these people and Isaid you were not sharing
necessarily from this car there.
How's business?
How has this impacted your workand the people that you're
working with, and have you seena drop off in clients?
(08:51):
Business has never been better.
It's opened up relationshipsand conversations.
It's made me allow to connecton a human level with the people
who I wanted to work withanyway.
If someone was not comfortabletalking about mental health or
saw that as unprofessional, Idon't want to work with that
person anyway.
And I tell the story all thetime.
One of my clients you know Ialways ask like why, why did you
end up working with me?
(09:12):
You know, either in anonboarding or when we're doing a
review session and one of themsaid I just felt like I could
get a glass of wine with you.
I knew you knew your stuff, butout of everyone that I could
have worked with, I felt like Icould.
Just I knew that you would beeasy to talk to.
It's all about fit right.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I mean it comes down to finding people that fit with
you, because if they don't fitwith you and who you are and
your beliefs and how you operate, it's going to be painful for
both of you, like throughout theentire process.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
There's so many people competing out there with
your, you know, level ofknowledge, using similar tools,
using a similar approach, and sowhat differentiates us?
It's you, it's you, it's yourstory, it's your experiences,
it's how you think, it's how youask questions.
You know, and no one can knowthat or decipher that about you
(10:04):
or pick you over anybody elsewithout you opening up about
that stuff.
Like I love Jay Akunzo, who isa he's a keynote storytelling
coach and speaker, and he saysyou know, don't be the best, be
their favorite.
Storytelling allows you to betheir favorite.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It's funny because my poor husband and I say poor
husband because he's married tome and I'm like I'm an open book
right If you've ever takenStrengthsFinders, I have woo,
which is basically like I haveno filter right.
I just start conversations withrandom people about anything if
there's three seconds of silenceand they'll know my life story
by the time we get off theelevator or out of the checkout
line at the grocery store and heis locked up tight because he
(10:45):
believes that information ispower and he doesn't want to
give anybody power when there isinformation over him.
So, yeah, it's a veryinteresting dynamic and it's
very cool because it's allwritten in the StrengthsFinder
thing.
But, yeah, my poor husbandBecause, yeah, I definitely
share way too much about him.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Well, it's probably part of the reason why he was
attracted to you too, you wouldhope, right?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
We've been married 25 years almost the same.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Wow, congratulations.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I do feel bad for him every now and again.
But my question for you on thisis let's talk about moving from
stories into email, so you'reconnecting on a regular basis,
right?
It's not going to always besuper profound and deep, and
because I mean profound and deepand because I mean deep, things
(11:37):
don't happen daily all the time, right.
I mean, I would say it dependson your perspective and you
could probably find some uniquethings, but how are you finding
these things so that you cancreate them in email and then
translate them to your business.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It's a daily practice and I will say I think it is
easier to be a little bit moreopen and a little bit more
personable and a little bit morepersonal on email because
someone has given you theiremail, they've given you the key
right to go deeper with them.
They've actually they'reactually indicating that they
want more Right no-transcript goa little bit deeper than you
(12:38):
could on other channels.
So I would take thatopportunity.
One, two how do you do it?
It's a practice of noticing.
I literally I do it every day.
I do Matthew Dick's homeworkfor life is the method that I
have adopted.
Matthew Dipp, he's a renownedspeaker.
He's won, like every singlemoth, grand slam, so he and he's
(13:02):
written several books too, onstorytelling and how to become a
better storyteller.
He developed this system, thispractice, called Homework for
Life, and it's every day.
You take five minutes.
It looks like journaling, itfeels like journaling, but it's
not like journaling, becausejournaling can be a chore for
some people, myself included.
(13:23):
It's just taking five minutesand saying, if I had to tell a
story about today, what would itbe?
What would the story be?
The five-minute story, and howdo you find that story?
You find that five-secondmoment of meaning, of
transformation, something thatmade you think differently, or
something that made you notice,or something that you saw for
the first time, or you know theworld is now this way, right.
(13:46):
And usually it's those liketeeny, tiny micro mindset shifts
that unlock something new, thathave meaning, that give you
meaning, that give your lifemeaning, that make a story.
So if you start looking forthose every day, if you force
(14:08):
yourself to do that every day,you will have an overabundance
of stories.
So like, for instance, theother day, one of my best
performing social media poststhat ended up becoming an email
that also performed really wellwas my daughter came to me in
tears.
She came to me in Like I'mshe's in fourth grade, you know,
(14:28):
she's like I don't.
I just I don't feel like I haveany friends right now and Eliana
always gets picked andChristine always gets picked and
I never get picked.
(14:48):
And I wrote a little storyabout this, about that feeling
that we've all felt right.
It's tapping into like auniversal human experience.
And then you know what I toldher to try to just to help her
think about it in a differentway in the moment, and then
sharing it with my audience.
And I got a huge responsebecause everyone at some point
(15:10):
in their life has felt unwanted,right?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Or it's felt like or wasn't picked for the dodgeball
team.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Whatever it was, or even like right now applying it
to business and work like weweren't picked.
You know, you had a clientinterview and they didn't pick
you.
They picked somebody else,right, and we're all online
trying to get picked all thetime.
So I related it back to that,but it started with that tiny
little moment that also, had Inot written it down or thought
about it or taken a moment toreflect on my day, that moment
(15:39):
could have just been a momentthat was forgotten, like so many
other moments in our day.
You know, we're all like life'smoving so fast.
It's already the end of theyear, it's already summer.
How is that?
It really helps slow down timeand help you make meaning out of
it all.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
One of the things that I tell people if you don't
have ideas for content, startwith questions.
What are the questions that youget asked on a regular basis?
And it's like I don't get askedquestions.
It's like, okay, yeah, you do,I know you do, and I did a big
presentation earlier this yearon AI at a big conference and I
(16:17):
think I got asked like 15, 20questions.
I couldn't tell you one of thembecause the adrenaline was
still flowing.
We forget and we forget if wedon't write it down for sure.
So I love that taking that fiveminutes.
Set a timer.
I use like my little time timerhere and all the time for my
(16:37):
Pomodoros and stuff like that.
Five minutes goes by prettyfast when you really start to
think about it.
I love picking that piece.
So let me ask this what kind ofquestions do you ask yourself
if you've had a mundane, regularday that you feel is mundane
and regular, right, nothing goodhappened or nothing special
(16:58):
happened or nothing's jumpingout at you?
What questions do you askyourself to try and find that
little piece?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
The biggest question is what did I feel today?
What made me feel something,whether it was boredom or
confusion, or anger or joy, orso that's the first one.
And then, okay, notice, why didI feel that way?
What made me feel that way?
(17:24):
What happened around that thatled to that feeling?
Is that a feeling you've hadbefore?
Oh, is this a feeling I haveoften because of this thing?
Right, and then you start tounpack it a little bit and start
to find those moments, because,really, the moments that I
think, the moments that movepeople, are the really small
ones.
(17:44):
They're like, the reallyseemingly insignificant ones,
but you make them significant bygoing deeper and giving them
meaning right and attaching themto something.
And this is just that is whatstorytelling is.
It's every day.
We all go through the day witha series of events that happened
to us.
I try to practice this in somany other ways too, like when
my partner asked me at the endof the day, how was your day?
(18:04):
Instead of giving him thatlaundry list of like events this
happened, this happened, thishappened Before I answer, I
think what's the mostinteresting thing that happened?
Why was that interesting to me?
Why would he find itinteresting and I try to start
there right and it just makesour conversation so much richer
too, maybe.
Why is the question?
What did I feel and what did Inotice?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So if you're out walking your dog or listening to
this podcast episode as you'redoing exercise or running on the
treadmill or don't have a pieceof paper to write that down,
you definitely want to takenotes.
I don't know if your mindwandered to what you're feeling
today or what, but I'll tell youright now that as soon as you
said what do you feel today andwhat drove you to feel that way
(18:46):
this morning, I totallyforgotten about it.
I woke up and I was mad at mysister because of some texts
that were going back and forthlast night, and I was still mad
this morning because of sometexts that were going back and
forth last night and I was stillmad this morning.
You know, but again, I havetold I had totally forgotten
that I woke up mad at my sister.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, I like I moved on and I was doing other things,
and I think that there's a lotto be said there, for something
that usually happens Is the samething that you've talked about
forever.
What can you learn from this?
You know, like it just for me,it just triggers so many more
questions, and I'm sure anyonelistening to it too is now
curious.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
If you want to know, send me an email and I'll let
you know, but it helps.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You take a minute, too, to maybe think about, like,
what is actually happeningthere.
Why are we in this cycle, youknow, and whatever questions you
want to ask yourself, likewhat's my part in it, or you
know, how can I move thisforward if you want to, or how
can we resolve this thing.
What actually is it?
What actually are we talkingabout?
Right, because when you're inconflict with someone, it's
(20:09):
usually about something else.
And is it really my problem?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
No, it's really my problem.
No, is it your?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
problem.
Right, yeah, right, do what itcould be.
So there's a post idea of likewhat do we really need to pay
attention to?
What are we giving our energyto and when can we just like?
Where do we need boundaries?
Like there you go.
The world is your contentoyster, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Oh my gosh, I love this so much and I'm definitely
going to start practicing itbecause I feel that there's so
much that you can get out of itand I think, well, I don't even
think I know that there are aton of stories that I'm missing
out on because I'm not thinkingthat way.
This year I did try to do morestorytelling in my out-of-office
(20:49):
auto replies, so I've toldstories about there was a water
main break at my office and itwas like single degree weather
with like negative wind chills,and we had to walk to one of the
other buildings if you wantedlike to use the bathroom.
And I also had.
My furnace broke that week too,and my husband had backup
supplies in the basement becausethey downed like things that
(21:12):
might break.
So that was a funny story.
And then the refrigerator brokeand so I've had like.
And then, of course, the sagaof going to Florida to while my
mom was recovering in thehospital.
There's so many things thathappened to us on a daily and
there's so many ways toincorporate that into what you
do.
People actually look on myemail signature to see when I'm
going to be out of the office,and then they send me an email
(21:34):
when I'm out just to see what Ihave to say that's amazing,
that's a real relationship toolyou've built there.
I started it this year, and thenmy assistant grabs them and I'm
going to make a book out ofthem later this year, so I can't
wait.
It's going to remind me aboutall the crazy stuff that
happened.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, it's funny that just happened too.
As you were lifting off some ofthese stories that you were
thinking about, it startedsparking ideas for me about
similar situations that I'vebeen in and what I could make of
those, and so there's justanother.
We've just entered anotherrealm of like, connectedness and
intimacy, you know, andstarting to relate to each other
(22:14):
on a new level that's beyondmarketing right, which is
limited.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
It is, and then, and there's just so much out there I
love the people that I feelhave the talent to see these
stories on a regular basis.
I love that you have that and Ilove that you shared how we can
get into better practice for it, because it is about being
observant, and I think we canlearn that skill if it doesn't
come to us naturally or asnaturally as it does to others.
(22:41):
So I really appreciate that andI am going to start I'm like
saying it right now I'm going tostart that homework for life
and doing five minutes andtelling the story of the day,
because I think that there'sjust so much to get out of that
that I wouldn't otherwise see orknow or pay attention to, and
(23:04):
that's just so powerful.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
So thank you, yeah, and not just for your work, for
your life.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing so much great
information with us and reallyactionable things that we can do
to increase more storytelling.
Of course, if you want moreinformation about Renee or how
to work with her, you'll findthat information in the show
notes.
But before I let you go, I doneed to ask you the question
(23:30):
that I ask all of my guests.
That is, this show is calledImperfect Marketing because
marketing is anything but aperfect science.
It's best with stories.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned
having to market myself andapproach my own marketing for my
business.
I didn't do it.
I was following the loud voices, the gurus, the trends, and I
(24:02):
was trying to position myself asan expert just experting and it
was completely falling flat.
I started my consultingbusiness all on referrals.
I had no need to do my ownmarketing.
And then when I finally camearound to it, I was like I'm
going to do LinkedIn, that'sgoing to be my marketing
platform.
I lost my first container orretainer client.
(24:24):
I was like, okay, so I need tostart doing this so that you
know, once this turnover startshappening, I have a pipeline.
Yeah, and I was just expert,expert and falling flat.
I did that for about two monthsand I was like I quit, this
sucks, I don't want to do socialmedia again, I'm going to find
another way.
And then I can't remember whatit was that gave me the kick in
(24:45):
the butt to start trying again.
But I was like I'm going to doit, but I'm going to do it the
way that I know how to do it.
Well, I'm just going to starttalking about my experience.
I'm going to start tellingstories.
I'm going to start talkingabout my experiences with my
clients.
My experience is building thisbusiness.
My experience is trying tomarket this business and I kid
you, not overnight it just liketook off and I started on
(25:07):
LinkedIn, gaining a thousand newfollowers a month, which then
started populating my newslettersubscription rate, which I
started a few months after that,and it was all through just
starting to tell more personalstories, opening up about
observations, sharing my pointof view, and that's why I
(25:28):
doubled down on it.
And then I was like this is theway.
Now I need to help othersfigure out how to take this
approach too, and I haven't doneany outbound marketing.
It's been all inbound.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Fantastic Because I think you know a lot of us
started our business.
I don't think I startedmarketing my business for six
years after I started it it wasall referral based right, and
I've been in business for 11years.
It's like I was like doingmarketing for other people and I
had no idea what to do formyself, and I think that that's
very common right.
(26:01):
We're just a little bit tooclose to our own businesses
sometimes to really realize thatwe know what to do, we know how
to do it and that's what weshould be doing.
So I love the fact that youfound that and you found a way
to connect with people.
That has just revolutionizedyour business Truly, and so
(26:21):
we'll have again ways to connectwith Renee in the show notes.
If you learned something todayand I know I did it would be
really helpful if you would rateand subscribe wherever you're
listening or watching, untilnext time.
Thanks so much for tuning in toanother episode of Imperfect
Marketing.
Have a great rest of your
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect scienceand that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello, and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Korman,and today I am excited because
we're going to be talking aboutstorytelling and how your story
is your strategy, and I'm joinedtoday with Renee and I'm dying
to know more about how did youget into storytelling and why is
this important to you.
Thanks for having me Kendra.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I have always been a storyteller.
I started my career injournalism so I was telling
stories from the very start.
They weren't very interestingstories at least to me they were
interesting to somebody.
But my first job out of collegewas at FDA News.
I was reporting on drug devicesand pharmaceuticals and FDA
regulatory news Exciting stuff,really exciting stuff that I had
(01:09):
no idea what I was talkingabout.
But the part I loved about itwas really the reporting piece
getting to talk to people,getting to talk to experts,
getting insights and digging upnews where I could.
And I also got to be on CapitolHill.
So I got to see the innerworkings of how our government
operates.
And I became jaded very quicklybut also felt very
(01:30):
self-important as a 21-year-oldwith my little press badge.
So it wasn't all bad.
But I got into more interestingjournalism later in my career.
I ended up working for the SanFrancisco Business Times.
I freelanced for the SanFrancisco Chronicle San
Francisco Business Times.
I freelanced for the SanFrancisco Chronicle and I got to
tell stories about smallbusinesses and startups and
philanthropists because that wasone of my beats and nonprofits.
(01:53):
So I really I was tellingstories and then I got into
journalism when the wholelandscape was shifting because
of social media and I quicklyrealized that it wasn't just
media organizations anymore thatheld the power.
Anyone had the ability to thentell their own story, build
their own mini media empire ifthey wanted to, and build a
(02:16):
platform, whether it was anindividual or a brand, and the
most iconic and best brands weredoing that.
So that's when I decided toshift out of journalism and then
into essentially the world ofcontent, marketing and brand
building to help businesses andnow increasingly small business
owners and solopreneurs telltheir own stories.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I love that.
I love storytelling becausestorytelling connects you with
your audience, right, you wantthat know like and trust factor
and I feel like stories do that.
How do you see audiencesconnecting?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
with stories.
I think audiences pretty muchonly connect with stories.
You said it earlier when wewere talking.
You know, one of your bestperforming newsletters this year
was a personal story, right,about your mother helping your
mother and how that changedthings for you.
And I see that all the time,once clients I work with, or
(03:10):
once I really started shiftinginto really taking a
storytelling-led approach to mymarketing, how it just opened up
the world.
What I like to tell people isthat we're constantly making
quick judgments about someone'scredibility, right, and the
biggest thing that people areafraid about is that if they
open up, if we're talking aboutsolopreneurs and service-based
business owners, right, tellingtheir story it's a little bit
(03:30):
different with brands, butfollow similar rules.
The biggest concern or biggestfear, one of them, is that if I
tell personal stories and it'snot related to my business, it's
going to damage my credibility.
Right, but credibility isreally measured by two things,
which is warmth and competence.
So competence is where you'resharing your expertise, you're
(03:52):
sharing what you know, you knowyou're developing rapport based
on your ideas.
But competence without warmth,without relatability, you know,
without connection, falls flat.
Right, then you're just like anexpert experting all day and
it's hard to connect, it's hardto understand, it's hard to see
yourself right and what they'retalking about, and then too much
(04:13):
warmth without expertise, right, or without competency, then
also it's just like.
Then you're just, you know,building a friendship, probably
online, and doing more of theparasocial relationship thing
which can lead to business, butreally ideally it's a
combination of the two, andstorytelling stories are just
the most effective tool we haveat our disposal to do that, to
(04:36):
accomplish those things.
Yeah, it is the core of my ownmarketing strategy and what I
teach people to do, because,like anything, it's something
that you have to learn how to do, especially for different
mediums, depending on whereyou're showing up, and it's a
matter of practicing it, likelearning the tools and then
putting it into practice.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So I come across people all the time that do not
want to share the personal sideof their lives and I tell them
that's okay.
It doesn't have to be, you know, super deeply personal, right?
You don't have to be like, youknow, opening the closet doors
and letting all the skeletonsout or anything like that, right
(05:17):
?
I think that there's ways to dothat without posting pictures
of the kids or your husband orspouse or significant other, or
they don't have to be involvedin every piece of that.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Can you be personal withoutbeing without oversharing?
For those who are concernedthat it's oversharing yeah,
(05:39):
absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I.
That's the biggest thing I runinto as well.
People are worried aboutoversharing.
I have a couple of thoughts onthat.
I would encourage you to juststart small right and sharing
things that you notice thatrelate back to what you do, that
also keep your audience in mind.
It can start with sharingthings that you just notice
(06:01):
about what's going on in yourindustry and giving it your own
personal take right.
So it's like I noticed this.
This is how I see it.
This is what my experiencetells me.
Yeah, you can also sharepersonal work experiences,
things that you're hearingunderstanding with your clients
Right Every day.
(06:38):
So those are all the littlemicro stories that you could
tell that don't necessarily needto reveal, you know, make you
tick what kind of a personyou're like to work with and
just testing it and seeing howit feels, you'll see that it
unlocks an entirely new level ofengagement and relatability and
(06:59):
trust and connection and allthese things that just explode
your business.
So I was really exploring thisearlier this year, like what is
the line right?
What is the line between toovulnerable or too raw?
You know where it couldpotentially damage your
credibility and everyone alwaysshares the same advice.
It's like share from the scar,not from the wound.
(07:20):
Right, make sure there's somedistance and you have some
perspective so that you can wrapit up in a nice little takeaway
or insight that you've learnedand that is a gift to your
audience, right, your potentialclient or customer.
But then I was like is italways that way?
Does it always need to be thatway?
Because I've seen someincredibly courageous displays
(07:42):
of vulnerability that have blownmy mind, that have like gone
beyond even my comfort level ofwhat I'm willing to share.
And it was like the owner ofthis marketing agency who works
with, you know really big fundedstartups you know very
successful, and she did aYouTube video about how she got
diagnosed with borderlinepersonality disorder and how it
(08:05):
was impacting her work and howshe was making a push and an
open call to publicly talk aboutmental health and publicly talk
about mental health strugglesand how it comes into her
business.
And then there was anotherwoman whose parents both passed
away and so she was kind of likeopenly exploring grief and how
it was impacting her work onLinkedIn.
(08:28):
And then I started collectingthese examples of and I reached
out to all these people and Isaid you were not sharing
necessarily from this car there.
How's business?
How has this impacted your workand the people that you're
working with, and have you seena drop off in clients?
(08:51):
Business has never been better.
It's opened up relationshipsand conversations.
It's made me allow to connecton a human level with the people
who I wanted to work withanyway.
If someone was not comfortabletalking about mental health or
saw that as unprofessional, Idon't want to work with that
person anyway.
And I tell the story all thetime.
One of my clients you know Ialways ask like why, why did you
end up working with me?
(09:12):
You know, either in anonboarding or when we're doing a
review session and one of themsaid I just felt like I could
get a glass of wine with you.
I knew you knew your stuff, butout of everyone that I could
have worked with, I felt like Icould.
Just I knew that you would beeasy to talk to.
It's all about fit right.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I mean it comes down to finding people that fit with
you, because if they don't fitwith you and who you are and
your beliefs and how you operate, it's going to be painful for
both of you, like throughout theentire process.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
There's so many people competing out there with
your, you know, level ofknowledge, using similar tools,
using a similar approach, and sowhat differentiates us?
It's you, it's you, it's yourstory, it's your experiences,
it's how you think, it's how youask questions.
You know, and no one can knowthat or decipher that about you
(10:04):
or pick you over anybody elsewithout you opening up about
that stuff.
Like I love Jay Akunzo, who isa he's a keynote storytelling
coach and speaker, and he saysyou know, don't be the best, be
their favorite.
Storytelling allows you to betheir favorite.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It's funny because my poor husband and I say poor
husband because he's married tome and I'm like I'm an open book
right If you've ever takenStrengthsFinders, I have woo,
which is basically like I haveno filter right.
I just start conversations withrandom people about anything if
there's three seconds of silenceand they'll know my life story
by the time we get off theelevator or out of the checkout
line at the grocery store and heis locked up tight because he
(10:45):
believes that information ispower and he doesn't want to
give anybody power when there isinformation over him.
So, yeah, it's a veryinteresting dynamic and it's
very cool because it's allwritten in the StrengthsFinder
thing.
But, yeah, my poor husbandBecause, yeah, I definitely
share way too much about him.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Well, it's probably part of the reason why he was
attracted to you too, you wouldhope, right?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
We've been married 25 years almost the same.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Wow, congratulations.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I do feel bad for him every now and again.
But my question for you on thisis let's talk about moving from
stories into email, so you'reconnecting on a regular basis,
right?
It's not going to always besuper profound and deep, and
because I mean profound and deepand because I mean deep, things
(11:37):
don't happen daily all the time, right.
I mean, I would say it dependson your perspective and you
could probably find some uniquethings, but how are you finding
these things so that you cancreate them in email and then
translate them to your business.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It's a daily practice and I will say I think it is
easier to be a little bit moreopen and a little bit more
personable and a little bit morepersonal on email because
someone has given you theiremail, they've given you the key
right to go deeper with them.
They've actually they'reactually indicating that they
want more Right no-transcript goa little bit deeper than you
(12:38):
could on other channels.
So I would take thatopportunity.
One, two how do you do it?
It's a practice of noticing.
I literally I do it every day.
I do Matthew Dick's homeworkfor life is the method that I
have adopted.
Matthew Dipp, he's a renownedspeaker.
He's won, like every singlemoth, grand slam, so he and he's
(13:02):
written several books too, onstorytelling and how to become a
better storyteller.
He developed this system, thispractice, called Homework for
Life, and it's every day.
You take five minutes.
It looks like journaling, itfeels like journaling, but it's
not like journaling, becausejournaling can be a chore for
some people, myself included.
(13:23):
It's just taking five minutesand saying, if I had to tell a
story about today, what would itbe?
What would the story be?
The five-minute story, and howdo you find that story?
You find that five-secondmoment of meaning, of
transformation, something thatmade you think differently, or
something that made you notice,or something that you saw for
the first time, or you know theworld is now this way, right.
(13:46):
And usually it's those liketeeny, tiny micro mindset shifts
that unlock something new, thathave meaning, that give you
meaning, that give your lifemeaning, that make a story.
So if you start looking forthose every day, if you force
(14:08):
yourself to do that every day,you will have an overabundance
of stories.
So like, for instance, theother day, one of my best
performing social media poststhat ended up becoming an email
that also performed really wellwas my daughter came to me in
tears.
She came to me in Like I'mshe's in fourth grade, you know,
(14:28):
she's like I don't.
I just I don't feel like I haveany friends right now and Eliana
always gets picked andChristine always gets picked and
I never get picked.
(14:48):
And I wrote a little storyabout this, about that feeling
that we've all felt right.
It's tapping into like auniversal human experience.
And then you know what I toldher to try to just to help her
think about it in a differentway in the moment, and then
sharing it with my audience.
And I got a huge responsebecause everyone at some point
(15:10):
in their life has felt unwanted,right?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Or it's felt like or wasn't picked for the dodgeball
team.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Whatever it was, or even like right now applying it
to business and work like weweren't picked.
You know, you had a clientinterview and they didn't pick
you.
They picked somebody else,right, and we're all online
trying to get picked all thetime.
So I related it back to that,but it started with that tiny
little moment that also, had Inot written it down or thought
about it or taken a moment toreflect on my day, that moment
(15:39):
could have just been a momentthat was forgotten, like so many
other moments in our day.
You know, we're all like life'smoving so fast.
It's already the end of theyear, it's already summer.
How is that?
It really helps slow down timeand help you make meaning out of
it all.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
One of the things that I tell people if you don't
have ideas for content, startwith questions.
What are the questions that youget asked on a regular basis?
And it's like I don't get askedquestions.
It's like, okay, yeah, you do,I know you do, and I did a big
presentation earlier this yearon AI at a big conference and I
(16:17):
think I got asked like 15, 20questions.
I couldn't tell you one of thembecause the adrenaline was
still flowing.
We forget and we forget if wedon't write it down for sure.
So I love that taking that fiveminutes.
Set a timer.
I use like my little time timerhere and all the time for my
(16:37):
Pomodoros and stuff like that.
Five minutes goes by prettyfast when you really start to
think about it.
I love picking that piece.
So let me ask this what kind ofquestions do you ask yourself
if you've had a mundane, regularday that you feel is mundane
and regular, right, nothing goodhappened or nothing special
(16:58):
happened or nothing's jumpingout at you?
What questions do you askyourself to try and find that
little piece?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
The biggest question is what did I feel today?
What made me feel something,whether it was boredom or
confusion, or anger or joy, orso that's the first one.
And then, okay, notice, why didI feel that way?
What made me feel that way?
(17:24):
What happened around that thatled to that feeling?
Is that a feeling you've hadbefore?
Oh, is this a feeling I haveoften because of this thing?
Right, and then you start tounpack it a little bit and start
to find those moments, because,really, the moments that I
think, the moments that movepeople, are the really small
ones.
(17:44):
They're like, the reallyseemingly insignificant ones,
but you make them significant bygoing deeper and giving them
meaning right and attaching themto something.
And this is just that is whatstorytelling is.
It's every day.
We all go through the day witha series of events that happened
to us.
I try to practice this in somany other ways too, like when
my partner asked me at the endof the day, how was your day?
(18:04):
Instead of giving him thatlaundry list of like events this
happened, this happened, thishappened Before I answer, I
think what's the mostinteresting thing that happened?
Why was that interesting to me?
Why would he find itinteresting and I try to start
there right and it just makesour conversation so much richer
too, maybe.
Why is the question?
What did I feel and what did Inotice?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So if you're out walking your dog or listening to
this podcast episode as you'redoing exercise or running on the
treadmill or don't have a pieceof paper to write that down,
you definitely want to takenotes.
I don't know if your mindwandered to what you're feeling
today or what, but I'll tell youright now that as soon as you
said what do you feel today andwhat drove you to feel that way
(18:46):
this morning, I totallyforgotten about it.
I woke up and I was mad at mysister because of some texts
that were going back and forthlast night, and I was still mad
this morning because of sometexts that were going back and
forth last night and I was stillmad this morning.
You know, but again, I havetold I had totally forgotten
that I woke up mad at my sister.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, I like I moved on and I was doing other things,
and I think that there's a lotto be said there, for something
that usually happens Is the samething that you've talked about
forever.
What can you learn from this?
You know, like it just for me,it just triggers so many more
questions, and I'm sure anyonelistening to it too is now
curious.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
If you want to know, send me an email and I'll let
you know, but it helps.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You take a minute, too, to maybe think about, like,
what is actually happeningthere.
Why are we in this cycle, youknow, and whatever questions you
want to ask yourself, likewhat's my part in it, or you
know, how can I move thisforward if you want to, or how
can we resolve this thing.
What actually is it?
What actually are we talkingabout?
Right, because when you're inconflict with someone, it's
(20:09):
usually about something else.
And is it really my problem?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
No, it's really my problem.
No, is it your?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
problem.
Right, yeah, right, do what itcould be.
So there's a post idea of likewhat do we really need to pay
attention to?
What are we giving our energyto and when can we just like?
Where do we need boundaries?
Like there you go.
The world is your contentoyster, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Oh my gosh, I love this so much and I'm definitely
going to start practicing itbecause I feel that there's so
much that you can get out of itand I think, well, I don't even
think I know that there are aton of stories that I'm missing
out on because I'm not thinkingthat way.
This year I did try to do morestorytelling in my out-of-office
(20:49):
auto replies, so I've toldstories about there was a water
main break at my office and itwas like single degree weather
with like negative wind chills,and we had to walk to one of the
other buildings if you wantedlike to use the bathroom.
And I also had.
My furnace broke that week too,and my husband had backup
supplies in the basement becausethey downed like things that
(21:12):
might break.
So that was a funny story.
And then the refrigerator brokeand so I've had like.
And then, of course, the sagaof going to Florida to while my
mom was recovering in thehospital.
There's so many things thathappened to us on a daily and
there's so many ways toincorporate that into what you
do.
People actually look on myemail signature to see when I'm
going to be out of the office,and then they send me an email
(21:34):
when I'm out just to see what Ihave to say that's amazing,
that's a real relationship toolyou've built there.
I started it this year, and thenmy assistant grabs them and I'm
going to make a book out ofthem later this year, so I can't
wait.
It's going to remind me aboutall the crazy stuff that
happened.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, it's funny that just happened too.
As you were lifting off some ofthese stories that you were
thinking about, it startedsparking ideas for me about
similar situations that I'vebeen in and what I could make of
those, and so there's justanother.
We've just entered anotherrealm of like, connectedness and
intimacy, you know, andstarting to relate to each other
(22:14):
on a new level that's beyondmarketing right, which is
limited.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
It is, and then, and there's just so much out there I
love the people that I feelhave the talent to see these
stories on a regular basis.
I love that you have that and Ilove that you shared how we can
get into better practice for it, because it is about being
observant, and I think we canlearn that skill if it doesn't
come to us naturally or asnaturally as it does to others.
(22:41):
So I really appreciate that andI am going to start I'm like
saying it right now I'm going tostart that homework for life
and doing five minutes andtelling the story of the day,
because I think that there'sjust so much to get out of that
that I wouldn't otherwise see orknow or pay attention to, and
(23:04):
that's just so powerful.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
So thank you, yeah, and not just for your work, for
your life.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing so much great
information with us and reallyactionable things that we can do
to increase more storytelling.
Of course, if you want moreinformation about Renee or how
to work with her, you'll findthat information in the show
notes.
But before I let you go, I doneed to ask you the question
(23:30):
that I ask all of my guests.
That is, this show is calledImperfect Marketing because
marketing is anything but aperfect science.
It's best with stories.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned
having to market myself andapproach my own marketing for my
business.
I didn't do it.
I was following the loud voices, the gurus, the trends, and I
(24:02):
was trying to position myself asan expert just experting and it
was completely falling flat.
I started my consultingbusiness all on referrals.
I had no need to do my ownmarketing.
And then when I finally camearound to it, I was like I'm
going to do LinkedIn, that'sgoing to be my marketing
platform.
I lost my first container orretainer client.
(24:24):
I was like, okay, so I need tostart doing this so that you
know, once this turnover startshappening, I have a pipeline.
Yeah, and I was just expert,expert and falling flat.
I did that for about two monthsand I was like I quit, this
sucks, I don't want to do socialmedia again, I'm going to find
another way.
And then I can't remember whatit was that gave me the kick in
(24:45):
the butt to start trying again.
But I was like I'm going to doit, but I'm going to do it the
way that I know how to do it.
Well, I'm just going to starttalking about my experience.
I'm going to start tellingstories.
I'm going to start talkingabout my experiences with my
clients.
My experience is building thisbusiness.
My experience is trying tomarket this business and I kid
you, not overnight it just liketook off and I started on
(25:07):
LinkedIn, gaining a thousand newfollowers a month, which then
started populating my newslettersubscription rate, which I
started a few months after that,and it was all through just
starting to tell more personalstories, opening up about
observations, sharing my pointof view, and that's why I
(25:28):
doubled down on it.
And then I was like this is theway.
Now I need to help othersfigure out how to take this
approach too, and I haven't doneany outbound marketing.
It's been all inbound.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Fantastic Because I think you know a lot of us
started our business.
I don't think I startedmarketing my business for six
years after I started it it wasall referral based right, and
I've been in business for 11years.
It's like I was like doingmarketing for other people and I
had no idea what to do formyself, and I think that that's
very common right.
(26:01):
We're just a little bit tooclose to our own businesses
sometimes to really realize thatwe know what to do, we know how
to do it and that's what weshould be doing.
So I love the fact that youfound that and you found a way
to connect with people.
That has just revolutionizedyour business Truly, and so
(26:21):
we'll have again ways to connectwith Renee in the show notes.
If you learned something todayand I know I did it would be
really helpful if you would rateand subscribe wherever you're
listening or watching, untilnext time.
Thanks so much for tuning in toanother episode of Imperfect
Marketing.
Have a great rest of your
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