October 16, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, to dive deep into the connection between business strategy, marketing execution, and the evolving role of AI.
Sara shares her journey from intern to CEO over her 15 years at Duct Tape Marketing and offers powerful insights on why strategy must always come before tactics and technology. Together, we explore how small businesses can future-proof their marketing and teams in an ever-changing digital world.
The Foundation of Effective Marketing
- Why business strategy must drive marketing strategy
- The “Marketing Strategy Pyramid”: business, marketing, and team strategy layers
- How to align marketing goals with revenue, mission, and values
The Role of AI in Modern Marketing
- Why AI is a tool, not a replacement—and how to introduce it without fear
- Common mistakes businesses make when adopting AI without strategy
- Exercises to help teams identify tasks AI can support vs. areas to develop human strengths
Shaping the Future of Marketing Leadership
- The growing divide in the marketing industry: AI adopters vs. AI skeptics
- Why agencies and consultants must shift from execution to leadership and strategy
- How AI allows more focus on creativity, empathy, and critical thinking
Mapping the Customer Journey
- Introducing the Marketing Hourglass: know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, refer
- How businesses can identify gaps and opportunities along the customer journey
- Why great client experiences naturally lead to stronger referral business
Lessons Learned in Marketing
- Why “more” is not always better when it comes to channels and tactics
- The importance of focusing on what works and making it sustainable
- How simplifying your approach reduces burnout and creates consistent results
Key Takeaways for Marketers
- Start with strategy before adding tactics or tools.
- Use AI to support—not replace—human creativity and leadership.
- Focus on where your audience is and what’s sustainable for you.
- Great client experiences lead to natural referrals and long-term growth.
Connect with Sara Nay:
Links to Book: Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models: How Small Businesses Can Finally Take Control of Their Marketing, Lead with Strategy, and Scale with AI: https://unchainedmodel.com/
Amazon: https://a.co/d/6aLtopF
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saranay/
Whether you’re a small business owner overwhelmed by technology or a marketing consultant navigating the rise of AI, this episode will help you rethink your approach and focus on what truly matters.
👉 Ready to align your marketing with your business goals? Tune in and learn how to lead with strategy for long-term success.
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
Watch here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect scienceand that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Corbin,and today I am really excited to
be talking about strategy andtactics and technology with
Sarah Ney.
Sarah, thank you so much forjoining me.
I really appreciate you takingthe time out to spend some time
with me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you for having me and I really appreciate the
name of your show.
I've been in marketing forabout 15 years now and what
marketing is ever perfect Like?
There's a lot of figuring outand tweaking and learning and
evolving and testing.
That goes into it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
So I love the name of the show, thank you so much, so
talk to me about a little bit,about what you do in marketing
now.
And how did you get there?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So I work for a company called Duct Tape
Marketing.
I'm the CEO.
I've been with the companysince December 2010.
I started as an intern.
I've had pretty much every rolewithin the company I'm from
account manager to fractionalCMO, to COO, to sales, and now
I'm the CEO seat.
And so I've really grown andevolved with the company over
the last 15 years.
As a business, we really havetwo sides of Duct Tape Marketing
(01:27):
.
So we work directly with smallbusiness clients where we come
in, we create a marketingstrategy based on the business
strategy and then we stay in thefractional CMO seat where we
essentially oversee all of theirmarketing from a very strategic
perspective.
So that's one side of ourbusiness.
We've been doing that the wholelength of Duectate Marketing,
so about 30 years.
(01:47):
And then the other side of ourbusiness.
We've been doing for about 15years and we actually certify
marketing coaches, consultants,agencies, fractional CMOs in our
approach so they can come inand lead their client engagement
strategy and then serve as afractional CMO.
And you guys have a podcast too, right, we do.
Our founder, john Jantz, jokesthat he's been running it since
(02:08):
before.
Podcasting was cool, so I thinkit launched back in 2005.
So it's been around for quitesome time and I am a follower.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm a subscriber, I get the downloads, I listen to
it regularly, so I love it.
So I was really excited to haveyou on the show, partially
because of that.
I saw that and I was like I'm afan, okay, yay, which is always
good.
So awesome, thank you.
And that's so great to hear astory about how you moved up
through the years in the company, trying all the different hats,
(02:37):
because I think the more thatyou do, the more you learn and
then the more you can apply.
But the other piece that Ireally liked that you said is
that you build a marketing plan,a marketing strategy based on
the business strategy.
I have to like highlight thatfor anybody listening, because
I'll ask people so what are your, what are your goals?
And they're like my marketinggoals and I'm like, no, your
(02:57):
business goals, cause youshouldn't have separate ones.
Like there should be one thingthat you're working towards yeah
, you can have some KPIs thatfall under marketing, but if
it's not building the businessgoals, like what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And we have something we call our marketing strategy
pyramid.
But the bottom layer isbusiness strategy Because, as
you said, we need to know wherethe business is currently, what
their revenue is, what theirprofit is, what are their one
year, three year goals, what'stheir mission, vision, value,
(03:31):
what do they want to be knownfor like.
We need to know all of thatstuff because once we know that
stuff, we get to the middlelayer of the marketing strategy
period mid, which is themarketing strategy.
Because now we know yourrevenue is here and you're
trying to go here like and thenwe can create the marketing
strategy to help them actuallygo on that journey.
So that's where a lot ofmarketing agencies, consultants,
fract, fractional CMOs miss andcompanies as they just keep
marketing as this separate thing.
But it's like those are.
They should be so tied together.
(03:52):
The business strategy informsthe marketing strategy and then
the top of our marketingstrategy pyramid is the team
strategy.
So once you understand what thebusiness is trying to
accomplish with the marketingstrategy and plan is, then you
can analyze your marketing teamto then identify, you know, do
we have the right people in theright roles, based on what we're
actually trying to accomplish,versus just like having seats
(04:13):
filled in an org chart.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yes, it sounds so elementary and so simple, but it
gets lost in translation and Ithink people sometimes get
distracted with the shinyobjects and don't tie it back to
what they're trying to achieve,and that's just so hard.
So I totally get that.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, and it's getting worse.
You know, and I don't know whatwe're going to talk about
strategy before technology butit's getting worse right now
than it ever has before, in myviewpoint and because I see and
there's a lot of stats aboutthis as well it's not just my
perspective, but a lot of smallbusinesses are bringing in AI
because it's here and they knowthey should be, but they're
bringing in, like, let's say, achat GPT because that's one of
(04:52):
the most common tools, and noweveryone on their team is using
chat GPT differently to dodifferent things, without proper
training or guidelines orprocesses or systems around it,
and so the output is all overthe place and a lot of times,
those teams are creatinginconsistent copy that's not on
brand, because the properstrategy then going on the front
(05:12):
end, and so it's getting evenworse.
Right now, people are bringingin tools to solve their problems
.
Maybe it's a capacity issue,but they're not really taking a
step back and answering thequestion of, like, what are we
actually trying to accomplish?
Because you need to understandthat first to then say, okay, if
we're going to grow ourauthority in the space by
producing more content, andwe're going to do that by
(05:35):
producing video and then we'regoing to repurpose that content
into different forms of writtencontent.
Okay, now you have somethingthat you're trying to accomplish
and then you can say okay, nowlet's think about what humans do
we need, if we're talking teamstrategy and the top of the
pyramid, but also what AIsystems and tools can we layer
below them to accomplish thisspecific goal, versus just
(05:56):
saying we're going to bring inchat, gpt and just create more
content all the time.
That's where it gets reallymessy.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Oh my gosh.
I find people are just like.
They're like, hey, look at thisnew tool and we're going to
start using it.
I mean, you started with, hey,they're bringing it in to solve
problems.
I see some clients and peoplebringing in AI just to bring in
AI, and I'm like why Do you havea problem that you'd like to
(06:21):
solve?
Then let's see if AI can fixthat.
But I mean just jumping in,going well, we don't even know
what it can do, and I'm like wecan find that out later.
Let's figure out what theproblem is and then the best way
to solve it, which may or maynot be AI, right, and I feel
like we sometimes are puttingthe technology out there because
(06:41):
we feel like we have to.
And don't get me wrong, I am ahuge, huge, huge fan of AI, Huge
fan of AI Love.
It Saves me 30 to 40 hours aweek and keeps me on brand and
on point for myself and for allmy clients, which I do love.
But yeah, I mean, why are weusing it?
Why are you bringing it inrather than okay, is there a way
(07:02):
to make this process moreefficient so that we can achieve
these goals that we're settingout?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, yeah, exactly, and I think there's two ways to
think about the why are webringing it in?
And so a lot of what I'vetalked about so far is like the
why behind what you're trying toaccomplish.
But I've also worked with a lotof businesses where and my team
is the same way where, like youstart bringing in these AI
systems and people on the teamare like, wait, am I going to be
replaced?
Like what's happening here,like I don't know about AI, I'm
(07:31):
not that comfortable in it yet,and so you also have to address
getting.
Once you do start bringing inAI, you have to help all of your
team understand the why behindit as well, and if you can tell
the story of we're not bringingthis in to replace you, we're
bringing this in to elevate you,I think that's a really
necessary message.
So it's the why are we bringingit in as a company?
(07:52):
And then getting everyone onthe team behind the why as well.
One of my favorite exercises forthat is, you know, having
everyone on your team analyzeall of the skills or tasks that
they're doing on a regular basisand then answer the questions
of is this increasing in value,staying stable, or decreasing in
value because of AI and if it'sstaying stable or decreasing,
(08:15):
then look at what are the AIsystems or tools you can build
below them to help with some ofthat stuff so they can focus on
the things that are increasingin value.
And when you can walk your teamthrough an exercise like that,
then you're helping them reallyfuture-proof their career moving
forward.
You're helping them identifywhere they need to focus, where
they need to grow, and then, ifyou're a good leader, you're
(08:37):
providing them with resourcesand training and education and
mentorship to help evolve inthose areas.
Because I think there's just somuch unknown with AI.
Right when it is today, itmight be completely different
and will be completely differentin six months or a year from
now.
So we're all kind of playingthe guessing game.
But as a business leader, youhave to really think about that
(09:00):
and the why behind it foryourself and for your team, to
help everyone feel moreconfident and stable, moving
forward saying you know peopleare unsure, right, and I
actually didn't believe thatthat was still happening.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I thought people had, like, gotten a little bit past.
The AI is taking my job, so Idon't want to learn it thing,
but it's not.
I mean, I've had three or fourpeople in the last couple of
months at AI trainings or AIpresentations that I've done,
walk up to me afterward and saidthank you so much, I'm going to
go try it.
I've been putting it offbecause I was scared it was
(09:36):
going to take my job.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's common and you can see the people that are
really outspoken against AI.
I can a lot of cases see thatthey feel threatened by it, and
that's a big piece.
Like I talk to so manymarketing consultants, agencies,
fractional CMOs through ourprogram, through sales calls,
through masterminds I'm part of,like I just have a lot of
exposure to people in that spaceand there's a divide I actually
(09:59):
posted about this on LinkedInLike there's the divide going on
right now in the marketingspace.
Either people are all in on AIthis is the future, I'm going to
lead the change or they'rethreatened by it and they're not
touching it and they'reoutspoken about the dangers and
risks and evil of AI.
And so I talk a lot to themarketing agencies, consultants,
(10:19):
fractional CMOs in the space,and I'm like, if we don't evolve
, we will be replaced Like it is.
It's a fact.
It's coming Like I am veryconfident on that.
I am very confident on that, andso I talk a lot about, though
our opportunity is to shift andevolve, to offer things that AI
can't and then bring in AI forthe things that they are good at
.
So the same kind of thing withgoing through the exercise like,
(10:41):
as a marketing agency, youcould keep offering execution
for things like SEO, social aid,but tools are being developed
very quickly that are going tobe capable of handling those
things with, you know, a humanhopefully overseeing them still,
but that gives the opportunityfor small businesses to be able
to bring execution in-house.
(11:02):
But what they'll lack in a lotof cases is that leadership to
actually guide the marketinginitiatives overall and to
up-level humans that are usingthe AI systems.
And so if you're a marketingagency still offering execution,
or marketing consultant orfractional CMO, the time is now
to shift into leading strategy,leading teams, up-leveling
(11:27):
humans and then training peopleon how to use AI effectively,
moving forward, and I thinkthat's the way you're going to
continue to compete versusexecution, because it's going to
be a race to the bottom.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Well, I talk all the time when I do presentations on
AI.
I sat into a presentation wherethe guy had talked about he'd
been very big at a lot of techcompanies and he talked about
how AI is flipping the workpyramid.
Right.
We got 60% of our day right nowis spent on work about work.
10% of our day is spent ondoing things that AI can't do,
(11:59):
which is, coming up with newideas, innovating, you know,
really thinking of new things,and he's like that pyramid is
going to flip flop, right, we'regoing to be spending 10% of our
day on work about work and 60%of our day on that critical
thinking and that ideation andthose ideas.
(12:19):
And that next step, which isjust so, so important and I
think it just gets overlooked sooften.
You know that we spend so muchtime on things that aren't
adding value in the processright, handling emails and
meetings, things like that thatwe don't always need to be a
part of, and you know but I dothink you know, again,
(12:41):
supervising that process,somebody, a human overlooking
that process, right, overseeingit, making sure it's staying on
task.
Someone was just asking me,like I keep telling ChatGPD to
not do this and it keeps doingit?
How do I get around it?
You know, it's just so, soimportant to have humans in the
process.
I even have a writing coach.
I talk about her all the timebecause, yes, ai can do a lot of
(13:06):
really great stuff on thatfirst draft, but having a human
that really understands theaudience and the target and
things like that can edit it totake it to a next level where it
actually works and converts.
And so I love how you'retalking about having people in
the process.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, and just to touch into that a little bit
more, you know, just to give anexample of what you're talking
about, where some of our work isshifting from the work work to
being more strategic andcreative and big picture
thinking.
So we've delivered somethingcalled Strategy First for
clients for as long as I canremember, and it's always been a
30 to 45 day engagement wherewe're creating marketing
(13:45):
strategy for our clients.
So we're doing a bunch ofresearch and then we're creating
a plan, and before AI, my teamwould do everything.
We would do everythingourselves, and so we're creating
a plan.
And before AI, my team would doeverything.
We would do everythingourselves, and so we would
create the slide deck.
We would do all of thecompetitive research, we'd
interview clients, we'd reviewall the reviews online and look
for things manually, and so wewould do all of the work work
(14:06):
behind creating the marketingstrategy, and it worked for us
for a long time.
But now, with the evolution ofAI, we can bring in tools to
help with the time consumingstuff, and so we're still
spending like the same amount oftime in a lot of cases on the
strategy for the clients, butwe're spending so much more of
our time on high level criticalthinking, creativity, problem
(14:27):
solving, like the things beingempathetic, like the things that
humans need to do, where we'reable to then bring in AI to,
let's say, pull a competitiveresearch report, a deep research
report, and we get this, youknow, 15, 16, 17 page report,
you know, within a few minuteswithin ChatGPT, and so we're
able to get the research done alot faster, to get us a higher
(14:48):
volume of information than thenput the strategy together.
So that's an example of howwe've shifted from more of like
the grunt work to more of thebigger picture, strategic
thinking in our offer.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Which I think is fantastic, because that's
exactly how AI should be used,right?
Because, again, you're stilldriving that strategy, and so
we're talking about strategybefore tactics and technology.
If someone's listening orwatching and is thinking about,
well, I just need to start usingAI, what would you say to them?
(15:19):
Stop, no.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Stop thinking that way.
No, I mean honestly I would sayI agree, I do think you need to
start using AI, but, likeanything like, if you don't take
the step back and create theactual strategy, you're going to
waste a lot of time, energy,money, push people towards
burnout, miss opportunities.
So there's a lot of negativesin going into that.
(15:42):
So traditionally, we've alwayssaid strategy before tactics,
because in marketing we'vealways seen small businesses,
businesses in general, not justsmall, but they dive into
tactics.
So it's like I just need thisFacebook, this meta campaign
going ultimately, and so they'lllaunch this campaign and the
messaging is all over the place.
They don't have target marketreally identified.
(16:03):
They're spending a lot of money.
People go to like their websitewith no like proper landing
page or email series or like, soit's just like they spend all
this money on advertising where,if they just took a step back
and said who are our idealclients?
What message resonates withthem, what customer journey are
we guiding them on, and thenwhat content do we need to
(16:24):
produce based on that, theircampaign is going to be so much
more successful in the long run.
And so the same thing ishappening now with technology is
people are just bringing inthese tools and then it's just
they're just spending time andenergy in a lot of cases.
Not as much money sometimes,but like a lot of.
It's just like time and energy.
And it's like again, if youwould just take a step back and
(16:44):
say what are our objectives,what are we trying to accomplish
, what are our biggestpriorities?
How does AI tie into that?
And then when you decide you'regoing to bring in, let's say, a
chat GPT, then you need totrain chat GPT on your business
strategy.
So then you need to give it allthe information you have.
So here's our ideal clients andhere's our messaging and here's
everything we offer.
(17:04):
And this is our why and this isour founder's story.
And the blah, blah, blah, likethe more information you can
give a tool like that, thenyou're ready to start thinking
about okay, how are we going toactually use this to create
output?
But then you also need to putprocesses and systems behind it.
So bringing in AI, isn't thislike simple thing that you can I
mean, you can start dabbling it, but I really encourage you.
(17:25):
It's like create the strategy,identify the tools based on that
.
Train the tools on yourstrategy.
Identify the tools based onthat.
Train the tools on yourstrategy.
Put systems and processes inplace.
Train your team, and that'swhere you'll be successful with
AI.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So a long, long time ago I was interviewing for a job
and it was one of those groupinterviews where they had a
bunch of different candidates inand then they gave us
activities to do and stuff likethat, I don't know.
And I did get the job.
And but a big part of why I gotthe job, I still think to this
day, is they wanted a strategy,a marketing strategy, and every
(18:03):
other group jumped right intotactics.
These are marketingprofessionals with, you know, 10
plus years of experience, andthey were jumping right into
tactics.
I'm like, no, what's thestrategy?
Right?
The strategy is above that.
It is not Facebook ads, it isnot, you know, posting on social
(18:24):
.
I mean, at the time it was waybefore TikTok.
You know it's not going viral.
It's what is the strategy thatwe're looking to, you know, to
put behind it, and then youmatch up the tactics to it.
And that's so important becauseit changes what you think might
work.
You can do a 180 if thestrategy is different.
(18:45):
Think might work.
You can do a 180 if thestrategy is different.
When I started as the marketingdirector at Kauffman Group, I
called all of the managingdirectors of all the offices
around the country.
And I was like, hey, so how canmarketing help you?
And I'll never forget this.
Actually it was more than one.
But one of them said to me well, kendra, here's the thing, I
(19:06):
have all the customers I need.
I just want more business fromthem.
I was like you don't want anyother customers.
And they're business tobusiness, insurance wholesale.
And they're like no, I have allthe customers that I want in
the area.
Anyone's I don't work with.
I've been in this area for like60 years or something.
Anybody I don't work with Idon't want to work with.
(19:27):
And I was like, okay, and thenumber one budget item in
marketing was trade publications.
I'm like why are we advertisingin the trade magazines if we
want more business from existingcustomers?
So you know we changed todirect mail business from
(19:48):
existing customers.
So you know we changed todirect mail.
It's taking that step back andreally thinking about what are
you trying to do and then what'sthe best way to do it?
It's so important in that andyou know, again, I went from ads
and trade publications todirect mail.
But that works for technologytoo.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, absolutely, what are you trying to do?
Is the biggest first questionyou need to answer.
But then, absolutely, what areyou trying to do?
Is the biggest first questionyou need to answer.
But then, like, who do youserve and what message resonates
with them and what journey areyou trying to guide them on?
Like, it's all of those piecestogether that you have to get
clear on, because that's anotherarea that people miss is, like,
okay, who do you serve or whoare you targeting?
Like, if you skip over that,you don't know what channels to
(20:27):
focus on.
You don't know if you want tofocus on direct mail or Facebook
or whatever it might be,because you have no idea who
your ideal clients are.
Where do they hang out online?
How do they make buyingdecisions?
And so it's the all of thosepieces together.
What are you trying toaccomplish?
Who do you target, what's themessage, what's the journey?
Like, you have to have all ofthat mapped out before you can
even start to think abouttactics or technology.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
So you're mentioning the customer journey a little
bit there.
Why don't you talk a little bitabout that?
So, for those listening andwatching, what should they be
thinking about when they hearthe term journey?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, so we have our own version of the customer
journey.
We call it the marketinghourglass and essentially that's
mapping out how can people getto know like trust, try, buy,
repeat and refer.
And so you're really looking atthe whole journey that they
would have with you and, to yourpoint, with your client that
you were mentioning earlier,like they really wanted more
repeat clients.
(21:20):
It sounded like they wanted tosell more to those people and so
when you map out the wholecustomer journey or the
hourglass, it will help youunderstand where your gaps and
where your biggest opportunities.
Because when you can take careof someone throughout that whole
entire journey, the last stageis refer.
And the beauty in referral isif someone had an incredible
experience, they're just goingto like talk about your company
(21:43):
in conversations as it comes upat networking events.
When friends ask like they'rejust going to like talk about
your company in conversations asit comes up at networking
events.
When friends ask like they'rejust going to naturally talk
about the experience they hadwith your company and then they
then refer someone and then thatperson moves through no, like
trust, try by really quicklybecause there's already a level
of trust built in and so it'sreally taking care of your
(22:04):
clients throughout the entireexperience with you, and that's
really through marketing, salesand customer service clients are
based a ton on referralbusiness, right.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
But sometimes it ebbs and flows because they're not
always top of mind, and you knowthat's a key part to that
process is keeping yourself topof mind so that they're, when
(22:34):
they do hear somebody that needsmarketing support or HR
consulting or something alongthose lines, that you're the one
that they think of,automatically right, and that
there's nobody else in that spot.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Exactly so.
It's the great experiencethroughout, and then it's
staying top of mind, where a lotof people, when they're
thinking about referrals,they're like, oh, if we just ask
for them, it will happen.
And it's like you have to askfor them at the right time, but
you also have to provide themwith wins and good experiences
along the way, and so it'sreally the combination of those
(23:07):
two together asking at the righttime and providing a great
experience and really stayingtop of mind that's going to lead
to more referrals down the road.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yes, that's so great.
Thank you so much.
Okay, this has been a fantasticconversation, and I hope that
everybody listening and watchingis learning all about the fact
that you start with strategybefore you go and find the tools
that are going to solve all ofyour problems.
I think that's really important, because you don't know what
(23:36):
the problems are if you don'thave a strategy yet, and so save
yourself a lot of time, energyand headaches along the way by
starting a strategy, which Ithink is so important.
Before I let you go, sarah, Ido have to ask you the question
that I ask all of my guests, andthat is that this show is
(23:56):
called Imperfect Marketing,because marketing is anything
but a perfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
We say this to our clients all the time and we
actually went through thisourselves as well is what I see
a lot in the small businessspace is people just think they
need to be doing more like moremarketing, more channels, more
platforms, more ways to reachpeople, and so we always say,
like, simpler is better in a lotof cases, like really
understand, based on yourmetrics, what channels or
(24:21):
efforts are working and go allin on those, versus feeling like
you need to be on every socialplatform and on every paid
account all of the things,because it's really hard to
manage and all of a sudden,people get spread way too thin,
doing things okay, but nothingwell, and so we've also
experienced that over the years,where we just try to do too
much versus just narrowing in onthings that work for us, like
(24:44):
webinars or other things that wehave in place, and so I think
the lesson learned there is moreis not always better A lot of
times when it comes to marketing.
It's how can you get great atunderstanding your numbers and
go deeper on what's actuallyworking for you, versus trying
to do everything?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I love that and I mean I'm guilty of it too In my
business.
I went out on all the things.
Right Now, you can find me onLinkedIn and YouTube, and that's
you can find everything.
You can find me other places,but you're not getting
interaction.
I'm not really responding.
All my all in is on LinkedIn andYouTube, because I got to the
point where I got burnout and Iwent dark for three months and
(25:28):
like that didn't help anybody,right?
So I think that that's really asuper strong lesson that all of
us most of us have learned thehard way.
But you don't have to have thatguilt that goes with it, right?
Don't feel like you have to doall of the things.
I think when I realized that Ididn't have to do all the things
(25:48):
is I had a guest on the podcastand she was a marketing
consultant and she only hadLinkedIn Go to her website.
She just had a link to LinkedIn.
That's where her people wereand so that's where she hung out
.
That was the only platform shehad.
Now, did she protect and grabher brand name on Facebook and
(26:10):
Instagram?
Maybe, right, maybe she wasproactive on doing that the
things, because, oh my gosh, Iwent to this meeting and
so-and-so is having greatresponse from their reels and
it's like maybe their people arethere right, maybe yours aren't
(26:35):
.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Absolutely, it comes down to where are your people,
but also, you know, maintainingsomething that you can sustain
for the long term.
Because you mentioned burnoutthere, like, I've been close to
burnout over the years a fewtimes.
I think most people probablyhave in their career, and a lot
of it is trying from doing toomany things at once and trying
to, you know, sustain that.
And so I think there's tworeasons behind it Like, really
(26:57):
get good at hanging out withyour where your people are
online, as you said, but also dowhat feels right for you as
well, because it's important foryou to be able to enjoy work
and to sustain it and to be herefor a long time, because I see
a lot of people, marketersespecially get burnt out over
the years, because there's somany components when it comes to
(27:18):
marketing.
There's all the differentchannels and then all the
evolution of AI.
It's just this overwhelmingspace, and so don't feel like
you have to master all of it.
Get good at where yourstrengths lie.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I love that, such a strong and powerful message.
So get rid of your guilt andfocus.
Focus and be consistent, rightand sustainable.
That's so, so important.
Thank you again, sarah.
So much for your time.
I really appreciate it Forthose of you listening and
watching.
If you learned something todayand I'm pretty sure you did I
would love it if you would rateand subscribe wherever you're
(27:51):
listening or watching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect scienceand that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Corbin,and today I am really excited to
be talking about strategy andtactics and technology with
Sarah Ney.
Sarah, thank you so much forjoining me.
I really appreciate you takingthe time out to spend some time
with me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you for having me and I really appreciate the
name of your show.
I've been in marketing forabout 15 years now and what
marketing is ever perfect Like?
There's a lot of figuring outand tweaking and learning and
evolving and testing.
That goes into it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
So I love the name of the show, thank you so much, so
talk to me about a little bit,about what you do in marketing
now.
And how did you get there?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So I work for a company called Duct Tape
Marketing.
I'm the CEO.
I've been with the companysince December 2010.
I started as an intern.
I've had pretty much every rolewithin the company I'm from
account manager to fractionalCMO, to COO, to sales, and now
I'm the CEO seat.
And so I've really grown andevolved with the company over
the last 15 years.
As a business, we really havetwo sides of Duct Tape Marketing
(01:27):
.
So we work directly with smallbusiness clients where we come
in, we create a marketingstrategy based on the business
strategy and then we stay in thefractional CMO seat where we
essentially oversee all of theirmarketing from a very strategic
perspective.
So that's one side of ourbusiness.
We've been doing that the wholelength of Duectate Marketing,
so about 30 years.
(01:47):
And then the other side of ourbusiness.
We've been doing for about 15years and we actually certify
marketing coaches, consultants,agencies, fractional CMOs in our
approach so they can come inand lead their client engagement
strategy and then serve as afractional CMO.
And you guys have a podcast too, right, we do.
Our founder, john Jantz, jokesthat he's been running it since
(02:08):
before.
Podcasting was cool, so I thinkit launched back in 2005.
So it's been around for quitesome time and I am a follower.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm a subscriber, I get the downloads, I listen to
it regularly, so I love it.
So I was really excited to haveyou on the show, partially
because of that.
I saw that and I was like I'm afan, okay, yay, which is always
good.
So awesome, thank you.
And that's so great to hear astory about how you moved up
through the years in the company, trying all the different hats,
(02:37):
because I think the more thatyou do, the more you learn and
then the more you can apply.
But the other piece that Ireally liked that you said is
that you build a marketing plan,a marketing strategy based on
the business strategy.
I have to like highlight thatfor anybody listening, because
I'll ask people so what are your, what are your goals?
And they're like my marketinggoals and I'm like, no, your
(02:57):
business goals, cause youshouldn't have separate ones.
Like there should be one thingthat you're working towards yeah
, you can have some KPIs thatfall under marketing, but if
it's not building the businessgoals, like what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And we have something we call our marketing strategy
pyramid.
But the bottom layer isbusiness strategy Because, as
you said, we need to know wherethe business is currently, what
their revenue is, what theirprofit is, what are their one
year, three year goals, what'stheir mission, vision, value,
(03:31):
what do they want to be knownfor like.
We need to know all of thatstuff because once we know that
stuff, we get to the middlelayer of the marketing strategy
period mid, which is themarketing strategy.
Because now we know yourrevenue is here and you're
trying to go here like and thenwe can create the marketing
strategy to help them actuallygo on that journey.
So that's where a lot ofmarketing agencies, consultants,
fract, fractional CMOs miss andcompanies as they just keep
marketing as this separate thing.
But it's like those are.
They should be so tied together.
(03:52):
The business strategy informsthe marketing strategy and then
the top of our marketingstrategy pyramid is the team
strategy.
So once you understand what thebusiness is trying to
accomplish with the marketingstrategy and plan is, then you
can analyze your marketing teamto then identify, you know, do
we have the right people in theright roles, based on what we're
actually trying to accomplish,versus just like having seats
(04:13):
filled in an org chart.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yes, it sounds so elementary and so simple, but it
gets lost in translation and Ithink people sometimes get
distracted with the shinyobjects and don't tie it back to
what they're trying to achieve,and that's just so hard.
So I totally get that.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, and it's getting worse.
You know, and I don't know whatwe're going to talk about
strategy before technology butit's getting worse right now
than it ever has before, in myviewpoint and because I see and
there's a lot of stats aboutthis as well it's not just my
perspective, but a lot of smallbusinesses are bringing in AI
because it's here and they knowthey should be, but they're
bringing in, like, let's say, achat GPT because that's one of
(04:52):
the most common tools, and noweveryone on their team is using
chat GPT differently to dodifferent things, without proper
training or guidelines orprocesses or systems around it,
and so the output is all overthe place and a lot of times,
those teams are creatinginconsistent copy that's not on
brand, because the properstrategy then going on the front
(05:12):
end, and so it's getting evenworse.
Right now, people are bringingin tools to solve their problems
.
Maybe it's a capacity issue,but they're not really taking a
step back and answering thequestion of, like, what are we
actually trying to accomplish?
Because you need to understandthat first to then say, okay, if
we're going to grow ourauthority in the space by
producing more content, andwe're going to do that by
(05:35):
producing video and then we'regoing to repurpose that content
into different forms of writtencontent.
Okay, now you have somethingthat you're trying to accomplish
and then you can say okay, nowlet's think about what humans do
we need, if we're talking teamstrategy and the top of the
pyramid, but also what AIsystems and tools can we layer
below them to accomplish thisspecific goal, versus just
(05:56):
saying we're going to bring inchat, gpt and just create more
content all the time.
That's where it gets reallymessy.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Oh my gosh.
I find people are just like.
They're like, hey, look at thisnew tool and we're going to
start using it.
I mean, you started with, hey,they're bringing it in to solve
problems.
I see some clients and peoplebringing in AI just to bring in
AI, and I'm like why Do you havea problem that you'd like to
(06:21):
solve?
Then let's see if AI can fixthat.
But I mean just jumping in,going well, we don't even know
what it can do, and I'm like wecan find that out later.
Let's figure out what theproblem is and then the best way
to solve it, which may or maynot be AI, right, and I feel
like we sometimes are puttingthe technology out there because
(06:41):
we feel like we have to.
And don't get me wrong, I am ahuge, huge, huge fan of AI, Huge
fan of AI Love.
It Saves me 30 to 40 hours aweek and keeps me on brand and
on point for myself and for allmy clients, which I do love.
But yeah, I mean, why are weusing it?
Why are you bringing it inrather than okay, is there a way
(07:02):
to make this process moreefficient so that we can achieve
these goals that we're settingout?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, yeah, exactly, and I think there's two ways to
think about the why are webringing it in?
And so a lot of what I'vetalked about so far is like the
why behind what you're trying toaccomplish.
But I've also worked with a lotof businesses where and my team
is the same way where, like youstart bringing in these AI
systems and people on the teamare like, wait, am I going to be
replaced?
Like what's happening here,like I don't know about AI, I'm
(07:31):
not that comfortable in it yet,and so you also have to address
getting.
Once you do start bringing inAI, you have to help all of your
team understand the why behindit as well, and if you can tell
the story of we're not bringingthis in to replace you, we're
bringing this in to elevate you,I think that's a really
necessary message.
So it's the why are we bringingit in as a company?
(07:52):
And then getting everyone onthe team behind the why as well.
One of my favorite exercises forthat is, you know, having
everyone on your team analyzeall of the skills or tasks that
they're doing on a regular basisand then answer the questions
of is this increasing in value,staying stable, or decreasing in
value because of AI and if it'sstaying stable or decreasing,
(08:15):
then look at what are the AIsystems or tools you can build
below them to help with some ofthat stuff so they can focus on
the things that are increasingin value.
And when you can walk your teamthrough an exercise like that,
then you're helping them reallyfuture-proof their career moving
forward.
You're helping them identifywhere they need to focus, where
they need to grow, and then, ifyou're a good leader, you're
(08:37):
providing them with resourcesand training and education and
mentorship to help evolve inthose areas.
Because I think there's just somuch unknown with AI.
Right when it is today, itmight be completely different
and will be completely differentin six months or a year from
now.
So we're all kind of playingthe guessing game.
But as a business leader, youhave to really think about that
(09:00):
and the why behind it foryourself and for your team, to
help everyone feel moreconfident and stable, moving
forward saying you know peopleare unsure, right, and I
actually didn't believe thatthat was still happening.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I thought people had, like, gotten a little bit past.
The AI is taking my job, so Idon't want to learn it thing,
but it's not.
I mean, I've had three or fourpeople in the last couple of
months at AI trainings or AIpresentations that I've done,
walk up to me afterward and saidthank you so much, I'm going to
go try it.
I've been putting it offbecause I was scared it was
(09:36):
going to take my job.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's common and you can see the people that are
really outspoken against AI.
I can a lot of cases see thatthey feel threatened by it, and
that's a big piece.
Like I talk to so manymarketing consultants, agencies,
fractional CMOs through ourprogram, through sales calls,
through masterminds I'm part of,like I just have a lot of
exposure to people in that spaceand there's a divide I actually
(09:59):
posted about this on LinkedInLike there's the divide going on
right now in the marketingspace.
Either people are all in on AIthis is the future, I'm going to
lead the change or they'rethreatened by it and they're not
touching it and they'reoutspoken about the dangers and
risks and evil of AI.
And so I talk a lot to themarketing agencies, consultants,
(10:19):
fractional CMOs in the space,and I'm like, if we don't evolve
, we will be replaced Like it is.
It's a fact.
It's coming Like I am veryconfident on that.
I am very confident on that, andso I talk a lot about, though
our opportunity is to shift andevolve, to offer things that AI
can't and then bring in AI forthe things that they are good at
.
So the same kind of thing withgoing through the exercise like,
(10:41):
as a marketing agency, youcould keep offering execution
for things like SEO, social aid,but tools are being developed
very quickly that are going tobe capable of handling those
things with, you know, a humanhopefully overseeing them still,
but that gives the opportunityfor small businesses to be able
to bring execution in-house.
(11:02):
But what they'll lack in a lotof cases is that leadership to
actually guide the marketinginitiatives overall and to
up-level humans that are usingthe AI systems.
And so if you're a marketingagency still offering execution,
or marketing consultant orfractional CMO, the time is now
to shift into leading strategy,leading teams, up-leveling
(11:27):
humans and then training peopleon how to use AI effectively,
moving forward, and I thinkthat's the way you're going to
continue to compete versusexecution, because it's going to
be a race to the bottom.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Well, I talk all the time when I do presentations on
AI.
I sat into a presentation wherethe guy had talked about he'd
been very big at a lot of techcompanies and he talked about
how AI is flipping the workpyramid.
Right.
We got 60% of our day right nowis spent on work about work.
10% of our day is spent ondoing things that AI can't do,
(11:59):
which is, coming up with newideas, innovating, you know,
really thinking of new things,and he's like that pyramid is
going to flip flop, right, we'regoing to be spending 10% of our
day on work about work and 60%of our day on that critical
thinking and that ideation andthose ideas.
(12:19):
And that next step, which isjust so, so important and I
think it just gets overlooked sooften.
You know that we spend so muchtime on things that aren't
adding value in the processright, handling emails and
meetings, things like that thatwe don't always need to be a
part of, and you know but I dothink you know, again,
(12:41):
supervising that process,somebody, a human overlooking
that process, right, overseeingit, making sure it's staying on
task.
Someone was just asking me,like I keep telling ChatGPD to
not do this and it keeps doingit?
How do I get around it?
You know, it's just so, soimportant to have humans in the
process.
I even have a writing coach.
I talk about her all the timebecause, yes, ai can do a lot of
(13:06):
really great stuff on thatfirst draft, but having a human
that really understands theaudience and the target and
things like that can edit it totake it to a next level where it
actually works and converts.
And so I love how you'retalking about having people in
the process.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, and just to touch into that a little bit
more, you know, just to give anexample of what you're talking
about, where some of our work isshifting from the work work to
being more strategic andcreative and big picture
thinking.
So we've delivered somethingcalled Strategy First for
clients for as long as I canremember, and it's always been a
30 to 45 day engagement wherewe're creating marketing
(13:45):
strategy for our clients.
So we're doing a bunch ofresearch and then we're creating
a plan, and before AI, my teamwould do everything.
We would do everythingourselves, and so we're creating
a plan.
And before AI, my team would doeverything.
We would do everythingourselves, and so we would
create the slide deck.
We would do all of thecompetitive research, we'd
interview clients, we'd reviewall the reviews online and look
for things manually, and so wewould do all of the work work
(14:06):
behind creating the marketingstrategy, and it worked for us
for a long time.
But now, with the evolution ofAI, we can bring in tools to
help with the time consumingstuff, and so we're still
spending like the same amount oftime in a lot of cases on the
strategy for the clients, butwe're spending so much more of
our time on high level criticalthinking, creativity, problem
(14:27):
solving, like the things beingempathetic, like the things that
humans need to do, where we'reable to then bring in AI to,
let's say, pull a competitiveresearch report, a deep research
report, and we get this, youknow, 15, 16, 17 page report,
you know, within a few minuteswithin ChatGPT, and so we're
able to get the research done alot faster, to get us a higher
(14:48):
volume of information than thenput the strategy together.
So that's an example of howwe've shifted from more of like
the grunt work to more of thebigger picture, strategic
thinking in our offer.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Which I think is fantastic, because that's
exactly how AI should be used,right?
Because, again, you're stilldriving that strategy, and so
we're talking about strategybefore tactics and technology.
If someone's listening orwatching and is thinking about,
well, I just need to start usingAI, what would you say to them?
(15:19):
Stop, no.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Stop thinking that way.
No, I mean honestly I would sayI agree, I do think you need to
start using AI, but, likeanything like, if you don't take
the step back and create theactual strategy, you're going to
waste a lot of time, energy,money, push people towards
burnout, miss opportunities.
So there's a lot of negativesin going into that.
(15:42):
So traditionally, we've alwayssaid strategy before tactics,
because in marketing we'vealways seen small businesses,
businesses in general, not justsmall, but they dive into
tactics.
So it's like I just need thisFacebook, this meta campaign
going ultimately, and so they'lllaunch this campaign and the
messaging is all over the place.
They don't have target marketreally identified.
(16:03):
They're spending a lot of money.
People go to like their websitewith no like proper landing
page or email series or like, soit's just like they spend all
this money on advertising where,if they just took a step back
and said who are our idealclients?
What message resonates withthem, what customer journey are
we guiding them on, and thenwhat content do we need to
(16:24):
produce based on that, theircampaign is going to be so much
more successful in the long run.
And so the same thing ishappening now with technology is
people are just bringing inthese tools and then it's just
they're just spending time andenergy in a lot of cases.
Not as much money sometimes,but like a lot of.
It's just like time and energy.
And it's like again, if youwould just take a step back and
(16:44):
say what are our objectives,what are we trying to accomplish
, what are our biggestpriorities?
How does AI tie into that?
And then when you decide you'regoing to bring in, let's say, a
chat GPT, then you need totrain chat GPT on your business
strategy.
So then you need to give it allthe information you have.
So here's our ideal clients andhere's our messaging and here's
everything we offer.
(17:04):
And this is our why and this isour founder's story.
And the blah, blah, blah, likethe more information you can
give a tool like that, thenyou're ready to start thinking
about okay, how are we going toactually use this to create
output?
But then you also need to putprocesses and systems behind it.
So bringing in AI, isn't thislike simple thing that you can I
mean, you can start dabbling it, but I really encourage you.
(17:25):
It's like create the strategy,identify the tools based on that
.
Train the tools on yourstrategy.
Identify the tools based onthat.
Train the tools on yourstrategy.
Put systems and processes inplace.
Train your team, and that'swhere you'll be successful with
AI.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So a long, long time ago I was interviewing for a job
and it was one of those groupinterviews where they had a
bunch of different candidates inand then they gave us
activities to do and stuff likethat, I don't know.
And I did get the job.
And but a big part of why I gotthe job, I still think to this
day, is they wanted a strategy,a marketing strategy, and every
(18:03):
other group jumped right intotactics.
These are marketingprofessionals with, you know, 10
plus years of experience, andthey were jumping right into
tactics.
I'm like, no, what's thestrategy?
Right?
The strategy is above that.
It is not Facebook ads, it isnot, you know, posting on social
(18:24):
.
I mean, at the time it was waybefore TikTok.
You know it's not going viral.
It's what is the strategy thatwe're looking to, you know, to
put behind it, and then youmatch up the tactics to it.
And that's so important becauseit changes what you think might
work.
You can do a 180 if thestrategy is different.
(18:45):
Think might work.
You can do a 180 if thestrategy is different.
When I started as the marketingdirector at Kauffman Group, I
called all of the managingdirectors of all the offices
around the country.
And I was like, hey, so how canmarketing help you?
And I'll never forget this.
Actually it was more than one.
But one of them said to me well, kendra, here's the thing, I
(19:06):
have all the customers I need.
I just want more business fromthem.
I was like you don't want anyother customers.
And they're business tobusiness, insurance wholesale.
And they're like no, I have allthe customers that I want in
the area.
Anyone's I don't work with.
I've been in this area for like60 years or something.
Anybody I don't work with Idon't want to work with.
(19:27):
And I was like, okay, and thenumber one budget item in
marketing was trade publications.
I'm like why are we advertisingin the trade magazines if we
want more business from existingcustomers?
So you know we changed todirect mail business from
(19:48):
existing customers.
So you know we changed todirect mail.
It's taking that step back andreally thinking about what are
you trying to do and then what'sthe best way to do it?
It's so important in that andyou know, again, I went from ads
and trade publications todirect mail.
But that works for technologytoo.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, absolutely, what are you trying to do?
Is the biggest first questionyou need to answer.
But then, absolutely, what areyou trying to do?
Is the biggest first questionyou need to answer.
But then, like, who do youserve and what message resonates
with them and what journey areyou trying to guide them on?
Like, it's all of those piecestogether that you have to get
clear on, because that's anotherarea that people miss is, like,
okay, who do you serve or whoare you targeting?
Like, if you skip over that,you don't know what channels to
(20:27):
focus on.
You don't know if you want tofocus on direct mail or Facebook
or whatever it might be,because you have no idea who
your ideal clients are.
Where do they hang out online?
How do they make buyingdecisions?
And so it's the all of thosepieces together.
What are you trying toaccomplish?
Who do you target, what's themessage, what's the journey?
Like, you have to have all ofthat mapped out before you can
even start to think abouttactics or technology.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
So you're mentioning the customer journey a little
bit there.
Why don't you talk a little bitabout that?
So, for those listening andwatching, what should they be
thinking about when they hearthe term journey?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, so we have our own version of the customer
journey.
We call it the marketinghourglass and essentially that's
mapping out how can people getto know like trust, try, buy,
repeat and refer.
And so you're really looking atthe whole journey that they
would have with you and, to yourpoint, with your client that
you were mentioning earlier,like they really wanted more
repeat clients.
(21:20):
It sounded like they wanted tosell more to those people and so
when you map out the wholecustomer journey or the
hourglass, it will help youunderstand where your gaps and
where your biggest opportunities.
Because when you can take careof someone throughout that whole
entire journey, the last stageis refer.
And the beauty in referral isif someone had an incredible
experience, they're just goingto like talk about your company
(21:43):
in conversations as it comes upat networking events.
When friends ask like they'rejust going to like talk about
your company in conversations asit comes up at networking
events.
When friends ask like they'rejust going to naturally talk
about the experience they hadwith your company and then they
then refer someone and then thatperson moves through no, like
trust, try by really quicklybecause there's already a level
of trust built in and so it'sreally taking care of your
(22:04):
clients throughout the entireexperience with you, and that's
really through marketing, salesand customer service clients are
based a ton on referralbusiness, right.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
But sometimes it ebbs and flows because they're not
always top of mind, and you knowthat's a key part to that
process is keeping yourself topof mind so that they're, when
(22:34):
they do hear somebody that needsmarketing support or HR
consulting or something alongthose lines, that you're the one
that they think of,automatically right, and that
there's nobody else in that spot.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Exactly so.
It's the great experiencethroughout, and then it's
staying top of mind, where a lotof people, when they're
thinking about referrals,they're like, oh, if we just ask
for them, it will happen.
And it's like you have to askfor them at the right time, but
you also have to provide themwith wins and good experiences
along the way, and so it'sreally the combination of those
(23:07):
two together asking at the righttime and providing a great
experience and really stayingtop of mind that's going to lead
to more referrals down the road.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yes, that's so great.
Thank you so much.
Okay, this has been a fantasticconversation, and I hope that
everybody listening and watchingis learning all about the fact
that you start with strategybefore you go and find the tools
that are going to solve all ofyour problems.
I think that's really important, because you don't know what
(23:36):
the problems are if you don'thave a strategy yet, and so save
yourself a lot of time, energyand headaches along the way by
starting a strategy, which Ithink is so important.
Before I let you go, sarah, Ido have to ask you the question
that I ask all of my guests, andthat is that this show is
(23:56):
called Imperfect Marketing,because marketing is anything
but a perfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
We say this to our clients all the time and we
actually went through thisourselves as well is what I see
a lot in the small businessspace is people just think they
need to be doing more like moremarketing, more channels, more
platforms, more ways to reachpeople, and so we always say,
like, simpler is better in a lotof cases, like really
understand, based on yourmetrics, what channels or
(24:21):
efforts are working and go allin on those, versus feeling like
you need to be on every socialplatform and on every paid
account all of the things,because it's really hard to
manage and all of a sudden,people get spread way too thin,
doing things okay, but nothingwell, and so we've also
experienced that over the years,where we just try to do too
much versus just narrowing in onthings that work for us, like
(24:44):
webinars or other things that wehave in place, and so I think
the lesson learned there is moreis not always better A lot of
times when it comes to marketing.
It's how can you get great atunderstanding your numbers and
go deeper on what's actuallyworking for you, versus trying
to do everything?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I love that and I mean I'm guilty of it too In my
business.
I went out on all the things.
Right Now, you can find me onLinkedIn and YouTube, and that's
you can find everything.
You can find me other places,but you're not getting
interaction.
I'm not really responding.
All my all in is on LinkedIn andYouTube, because I got to the
point where I got burnout and Iwent dark for three months and
(25:28):
like that didn't help anybody,right?
So I think that that's really asuper strong lesson that all of
us most of us have learned thehard way.
But you don't have to have thatguilt that goes with it, right?
Don't feel like you have to doall of the things.
I think when I realized that Ididn't have to do all the things
(25:48):
is I had a guest on the podcastand she was a marketing
consultant and she only hadLinkedIn Go to her website.
She just had a link to LinkedIn.
That's where her people wereand so that's where she hung out
.
That was the only platform shehad.
Now, did she protect and grabher brand name on Facebook and
(26:10):
Instagram?
Maybe, right, maybe she wasproactive on doing that the
things, because, oh my gosh, Iwent to this meeting and
so-and-so is having greatresponse from their reels and
it's like maybe their people arethere right, maybe yours aren't
(26:35):
.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Absolutely, it comes down to where are your people,
but also, you know, maintainingsomething that you can sustain
for the long term.
Because you mentioned burnoutthere, like, I've been close to
burnout over the years a fewtimes.
I think most people probablyhave in their career, and a lot
of it is trying from doing toomany things at once and trying
to, you know, sustain that.
And so I think there's tworeasons behind it Like, really
(26:57):
get good at hanging out withyour where your people are
online, as you said, but also dowhat feels right for you as
well, because it's important foryou to be able to enjoy work
and to sustain it and to be herefor a long time, because I see
a lot of people, marketersespecially get burnt out over
the years, because there's somany components when it comes to
(27:18):
marketing.
There's all the differentchannels and then all the
evolution of AI.
It's just this overwhelmingspace, and so don't feel like
you have to master all of it.
Get good at where yourstrengths lie.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I love that, such a strong and powerful message.
So get rid of your guilt andfocus.
Focus and be consistent, rightand sustainable.
That's so, so important.
Thank you again, sarah.
So much for your time.
I really appreciate it Forthose of you listening and
watching.
If you learned something todayand I'm pretty sure you did I
would love it if you would rateand subscribe wherever you're
(27:51):
listening or watching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
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