July 3, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, host Kendra Corman welcomes podcast producer and marketing strategist Dennis "DM" Meador to explore how attorneys—and really any professional—can use high-quality, niche podcasting to build authority, attract ideal clients, and scale trust in an AI-powered content world.
Dennis shares his journey from a high-production lifestyle podcast to building the Legal Podcast Network, a turnkey system specifically for attorneys.
Through candid lessons, big investments, and creative pivots, he developed a scalable approach to podcasting that helps professionals connect with the right audience—not just the largest one.
We explore:
The Power of Niche Podcasting for Authority Building
- Why attorneys (and other experts) must think like media companies in today’s digital landscape
- How production value became Dennis’s unfair advantage—and what most people miss
- Why smaller, targeted podcast audiences often convert better than mass appeal
Systematizing Success with AI and Human Review
- The principle of “AI then eyes”: how Dennis blends AI tools with human oversight for efficiency and quality
- Real examples of using AI for planning, scripting, editing, and reporting—without losing authenticity
- How his team handles cultural context, editing standards, and quality control across global teams
Creating Thought Leadership Content That Attracts the Right Clients
- Helping clients identify their ideal client type (e.g., high-net-worth divorce vs. quickie divorces) and reverse-engineering content to match
- How question-based SEO and ChatGPT-fueled searches are reshaping legal marketing strategies
- Why specific, empathy-driven content (like “What happens to my lake house in a divorce?”) beats generic messaging every time
Marketing Lessons and AI Realism
- Dennis’s two biggest marketing lessons: (1) Learn what’s coming, and (2) Give things time
- The importance of sticking to your scope—and knowing when to walk away from clients who demand more than they pay for
- Why firms that understand where attention is going (video, podcasting, AI-driven platforms) will win long-term
Key Takeaways for Marketers and Creators
- Podcasting isn’t just a content tactic—it’s strategic authority positioning
- AI doesn’t replace marketers; it upgrades your department—if used intentionally
- Focus on consistent, relevant, problem-solving content. That’s what drives trust (and conversions)
Whether you’re a marketing pro, a podcast enthusiast, or an attorney wondering how to stand out, this episode gives you a front-row seat to the behind-the-scenes strategy of modern, high-impact podcasting.
🎧 Ready to rethink your marketing and make your expertise visible?
Tune in to learn how podcasting and AI can elevate your visibility—and your value.
💬 Connect with Dennis “DM” Meador and explore the Legal Podcast Network:
Website: https://legalpodcastnetwork.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/legalpodcastnetwork.lawyer
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello, and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Korman,and I am really excited to be
joined today by Dennis.
Dennis started a podcastingsystem specifically for
attorneys and I love podcastingas a marketing tool, so I'm
super happy to have you.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you very much.
Good to be here.
Already enjoyed our what dothey call that?
The green room discussion, so Ithink we'll have some fun
talking and digging into some ofthe stuff we've already said we
want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yes, because there is so much stuff.
So tell me and tell everybodywhat had you?
Start a podcasting system andnetwork.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, I did a podcast in 2019 in Austin and what I
saw and where I really feel likethere's a great or there's a
lot of opportunity in socialmedia and in really what is you
know, with YouTube and Spotifyand everything, where we're all
our own media company now and Ithink that we don't think like
(01:27):
business owners, don't think ofthemselves as media companies,
but if they're doing their ownmarketing and they're trying
their own thing, you know theyare a media company and a lawyer
, they are a media company and acoach or consultant or whatever
.
Most people don't realize that.
And so when I did my podcast in2019 in Austin, it was just a
(01:49):
podcast about.
I called it FML ATX food, musicand life, not F my life.
Right, we started off as ATX AF.
Oh, it was FML per DM, becauseI actually go by DM.
That's why I put it in thething by my initials, because
I'm a junior, just makes iteasier.
What I noticed is you know, Ibrought in like three cameras.
One of them was shooting in 4kin 2019.
(02:12):
I had two sound people, I had aI don't even know like a gopher
and I had a co host.
I'd like 10 people on thispodcast team that I paid.
They were like full timeworking blah blah couple editors
.
All of that and what I noticedis I was not, by any stretch of
the imagination, the only persontrying to cover music, cover
food, cover life in Austin.
(02:33):
There was a lot of lifestylepodcasts, but mine quickly rose
to the top for one reason, andthat was production value.
And so that was my takeawaymade some great friends out of
it, didn't monetize the podcast,really didn't have any
intention.
I did 60 episodes in threemonths.
They were all on location atplaces, and I ended up spending
(02:56):
about $150,000 just to make ahigh quality podcast that now
sits on YouTube and has anywherefrom 30 to 3,000 views on each
show.
So what do I take away fromthat right?
So in life we either havefailures or lessons, depending
on how we look at it.
My lesson was when you putsomething out with a higher
production value than the median, it immediately makes an impact
(03:19):
and others respond much betterto it.
So I knew that Well.
I've worked with attorneys for20 years.
I was in an SEO agency with myformer partner.
He bought me out, I came out onmy own, and one of the things
that I had suggested to him waslike hey, I think podcasting for
lawyers would be great.
We ended up doing an answeringservice instead, no big deal.
(03:40):
But when me and him broke off,that's when I launched this
network deal.
But when me and him broke off,that's when I launched this
network, because I know that ifwe can provide a simple turnkey,
something that doesn't take upa lot of their times and is cost
effective, a method in whichattorneys can utilize that to
not just market themselves butseparate themselves, because
(04:03):
this is authority positioning.
What we're doing is we'resaying listen, you are going to
be our divorce attorney for theDFW metro area.
You got Dallas County, you gotTarrant County, you're the only
divorce lawyer we're workingwith in this marketplace.
And so now they're not the onlydivorce lawyer, they're not the
only podcast, they're not theonly social media marketer.
(04:23):
We can't shut everything.
I had somebody ask me that howcan you not let anybody else
have a podcast?
I'm like listen, it's not apodcast, it's on our network.
With our production, we gotinto it.
Basically, where I saw theopportunity is if I can make it
simple, cost-effective and takevery little bit of their time.
Really that's a winning formulafor any marketing thing, but on
(04:46):
top of it, this thing works andour attorneys are just like
right now we're just like.
I'm like hey guys, every clientthat's been with us more than
six months, at the end of theirnext shoot, shoot a testimony
with them.
Because when I talk to everysingle one of those clients,
every single one gives me astory about a client.
Every single one gives me astory about how much they love
(05:06):
what we're doing, what it's donefor them, not just as a
attorney to get clients, butamong other attorneys, and they
love it.
So we're just now justgarnering all that and bringing
that in to be able to just nowgo back to attorneys and go guys
, it's simple, doesn't cost alot and it's super effective.
Now let's work together andthat's really what we're trying
(05:29):
to do.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I love, and one thing I want to point out about that
is I love how you'respecifically making time to go
get those testimonials, becauseit's something we forget to do
so often, right, and people arebusy, so if you just send them
an email, they're not all goingto respond, even if they love
your stuff, right.
So taking that time is awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, we have this advantage, right.
We have them in front of thecamera.
How often?
At least every four months atleast.
You know some people, we haveit twice a month.
All I do is we call them up andwe just launch this new product
where we went from three to 30.
And you know, like we have, wewent from like just random
emails for people on the teamhey, this is done.
Check it to like now we have astructured Monday morning email
(06:13):
with all their actions,everything we've done,
everything they need, all ofthat.
So we're transitioning awayfrom like kind of like that
haphazard sort of approach andthen coming in and saying, ok,
here's everything laid out foryou.
I mean you basically demystifiedpodcasting and specifically for
that is a chat GPT word thatdid not exist until a year ago.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I've used that word for years.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Have you used it for more than five years?
Yes, I will allow you a pass.
You are the first person,Because we literally have a
database of words not allowed inour marketing.
Demystify delve.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Deep dive, dive, deep Crucial.
I got them too.
I got a whole list and it's sofunny because I write stuff
myself and I'll use those words,but my AI outputs don't help.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it's you know.
So anyway, sorry I was teasingyou.
You're good, go ahead.
You're good, I'm like no no, no, I've got this.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I had a big vocabulary to start with.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It wasn't just AI.
Problem is with vocabulary,because I've read profusely
since I was like four or fiveyears old and from like first
grade on that, I can read like a12th grade level.
They told me, you know thoseold tests you take every year,
and so I'm a pretty voraciousreader.
Plus, I grew up in church andwe use like the old King James
(07:41):
Bible, so I've got that likevocabulary accessible on top of
the fact of like like so much ofour English is built off of
that.
You know that book so.
But what I find is it's easierfor me to use big words when I'm
struggling, like I'm notrunning on all cylinders, I
can't talk simply, I can onlythink of the word that perfectly
encapsulates my thought.
I can't think of the broader,general thing that explains it
(08:04):
to them so they can actuallyunderstand me.
And so when I find myself usinga lot of big words, I kind of
like slow down because I'm likeokay, mentally my reservoir has
come down a little bit and Ineed to recharge a little bit,
get my brain back up to whereI'm doing things correctly.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yes, and AI is a good helper with that.
It's like okay, can you explainthis to someone who doesn't
know all my acronyms?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You've been using, leveraging AI speaking of AI,
right so your podcast network,you've been using it in your
company.
What's it done for you?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
It's 10x, literally our product.
So when we started a littleover a year ago, it was a show,
three pieces of content, andthey were all shorts or reels,
one before one, right around thesame time the show got released
and one after.
And what we saw in thebeginning was this is a great
(08:59):
supplementary product.
But what I've learned aboutmost small law firms is and
they'll buy one marketing system, try it for six months, not get
a ton of results and then moveon to the next marketing system
for four months.
So that's just something thatwe've seen throughout the years,
(09:20):
and so what we try to do is,internally knowing that, keep
that plugged in with everythingthat we're doing.
Like I said, we 10x'd.
We also are able to now, likeevery week and that's not quite
in AI yet, but a lot of piecesof AI put the reporting together
and every week we send them anemail with the five things they
(09:43):
need.
This is when your last podcastwas produced or when it was
released.
This is when the next one willbe released and where you can
see them.
Okay, this is when you need onewill be released and where you
can see them.
Okay, this is when you need toschedule your next podcast by no
later.
You can do one hour session ortwo hour session.
Okay, here's all of the contentthat's going out this week.
Here's all the content that wewant to go out next week.
(10:03):
But we just need you to look atit.
Make sure you don't hate it.
I don't remember what the lastthing was, but it's five things,
and so we list that for themand we're getting ready,
hopefully, to even be able toautomate all of that.
So every time we find all thesebig, huge things where I'm
talking to my team and we'relike, should we hire two or
three people?
And then I'm like, well, holdon, let's just see what we can
(10:26):
find out there.
And we go and I look and Ihonestly cannot count the amount
of AI things I've looked at inthe last year.
But we look, we find a need andnow all of a sudden, instead of
hiring three people at, youknow, let's say they're offshore
at 500 bucks a month, 1500bucks a month I find a software
for $220 a month or $39 a month.
(10:47):
You know, a lot of these AIthings are even cheaper because
you know they can be duplicated.
So with us being able to dothat, that's really helped us
with our clients.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So one of the things that I get from people all the
time and actually I just did apresentation on AI the day we're
recording but someone waspushing back and they feel that
AI is bland and that it's notthe right content, which is why
I love podcasts, because themajority of podcasts, because
(11:18):
now there's AI generatedpodcasts, but the majority of AI
podcasts are real people.
They're real content.
Even if they're AI characters,they're still.
It's still real content to alarge extent.
What are your thoughts about AIin podcasting and for this
thought leadership yourattorneys are doing?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
We use it for content plans, question plans, we use
it for ancillary.
We don't build with AI, wesupplement with AI, and what I
tell people is in our companyit's always AI, then eyes, so
it's an AI person.
Then they added it and they puttheir eyes on it.
Then they send it to one otherperson and we have people from
(11:57):
California to the Philippinesand everywhere in between so
they might send it from like.
We have a team in Pakistanfull-time I think we're at 15 or
17 now.
They'll finish it.
Then they always send it tosomebody in the United States
and then the people in theUnited States go through.
You know, I gave an example ofthis today.
I said listen.
I said you know, we've got toget, we've got to work on our
(12:18):
finish editing because we wantto insert B-roll.
And we've been doing B-roll inshort video, which is easy to
fix and easy to work with.
But I want to put it in ourlong video because of the two to
three minutes of attention thatyou get.
If you don't move the cameraview every two minutes, then
people get bored, you know.
So I'm like, listen, I want touse B-roll.
I said.
(12:38):
But the problem is, I said thisto my team director over there.
I said, when your people put inB-roll, it will fill in.
Something like, for example,how like a business office, but
in this business office it'll befilled with women with hijabs.
And I'm like now to your guysprobably they don't even see it,
(13:01):
but when you send that to anAmerican and say business and
they see a bunch of hijabs,they're just like who put, this
must have been put together inIndia.
So it's that kind of thing.
That's why we always send ourstuff to Americanize.
And then I mean, I'm not goingto deny, I've got a 23 year old
daughter.
She's got health issues.
She sits on her computer.
(13:21):
She makes a few hundred dollarsa week just watching videos,
pausing it, writing down theproblem, sending it back in a
spreadsheet.
My 19 year old daughter sheworks in a hospital, she's got a
good job, but she was sick fortwo weeks and she's like dad,
I'm a little behind.
Hey, I'll send that off to them.
So we've got people internally,we've got people externally.
We've got, you know, and wealways measure.
(13:42):
Like, the way we measure is ifthey do these hundred of these
hundred, how many attorneys setback something, and if attorneys
send back somethingconsistently, then you know
obviously we've got an issue.
But that's what we do with AIis maybe instead of saying AI,
it is AI than human eyes.
That's what I want to startsaying.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I did like when you said AI than eyes, because
that's so true, because that'swhat I tell people all the time.
I'm like AI doesn't replace you, definitely doesn't replace you
.
You still have to review whatit gives you.
You have to review that output.
Someone's like you're a.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Finnish editor Like.
That's just all there is to it.
You didn't buy a department,you put yourself at the head of
a department.
That's what you did.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Exactly, and I think that that really keeps it from
being watered down.
I mean, the content that you'recreating and that your podcast
network has are the realthoughts of these attorneys
right?
These are the key studies, thetips, the information for the
people that are experiencing,whatever it is the topic they
cover, right?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
We literally come in and we bring them on and they're
exclusive for their market.
I think I mentioned thatalready.
And then we don't just say, ok,you're a family lawyer, ok,
we're going to just talk aboutfamily.
We dig in and we say, ok, letme ask you a question.
If you could have one clienttype of client, what does that
client or three types, orwhatever it is what do those
(15:08):
clients look like?
And I always like to use thisexample for divorce.
I could say I'm a divorcelawyer, but am I a quickie
divorce lawyer for 500 bucks?
Because that's a wholedifferent way to market.
I've got to market to as manypeople as cheap as possible,
right?
Whereas on the other end of thespectrum, if you are in a major
metro area and you only workwith high, high net worth
(15:28):
individuals with custody and allkinds of assets and all kinds
of stuff like that, well, you'remaking $50,000, $2 million.
I read something the other dayfrom a divorce lawyer the most
he's ever made off one divorcecase $3 million, wow.
But he split up $4 billion.
(15:49):
Probably percentage-wise wasn'tgreat, but still he made $3
million off of one divorcebecause it was, you know, just
there was $4 billion to splitand however that ended up.
So there's all kinds ofspectrums of cases, and so what
we then do is we start writingcontent, for example, instead of
saying something like where isthe cheapest divorce lawyer in
(16:10):
Dallas or who is the cheapestdivorce lawyer in Dallas?
We don't want him to show upfor that.
We want him to show up for whathappens to my boat in a divorce
, what happens to my lake housein a divorce, or a second home
in a divorce.
Why Indicates assets?
Two this is a smarter shopper,he looking for he or she.
(16:31):
They're looking for somebody tohelp them, not just I need a
lawyer and I need to find onecheap.
They understand that there aregood lawyers and bad lawyers and
they're not all just the same,and so those people that do what
are called query based searchesthere's that advantage, plus
what all of the languagelearning models being built off
(16:52):
of Questions and answers, right.
So I already have my clientssaying I just had somebody find
me on ChatGPT, I just hadsomebody else find me on ChatGPT
, and they're like I don't evenknow how I got there.
And then I'm like look at yourinfrastructure of marketing and
what you're putting out there,and your website has answers and
(17:12):
you're in that marketplace thatyou're sitting in or that that
person is in.
So, when they're typing thesespecific questions and specific
issues and they need clarity andthey need their fears assuaged,
guess what everybody else issaying come to my website, I do
it all.
I can help you call me whileyou're saying I'm sorry, what
was the issue?
Oh, high asset divorce.
(17:32):
Well, typically, what happens?
Oh, with the boat?
Yeah, now, not specifically,but they feel like it's tailored
towards them.
So now they're going to theattorney with a desire.
They've gone past the no andlike and it's just confirming
trust.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That is what we are trying to do for our clients is?
It's not about, you know, threemillion views.
Hey, let's get them placed onsome podcasts.
It doesn't all have to be news,right?
And the PR firm's like, well,that's going to take us a while
to do the research, to seewhat's worth your time, and I'm
like, do our people listen to it?
Again, even if it's the 30people, if five of them donate
(18:31):
or join or whatever it is forthe nonprofit, that's all we
need.
Yeah exactly.
And I'd rather it be 30 peoplerather than 30,000 people,
because out of the 30,000, wemight get one because it's such
a wide group right.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Are you all digital in your career?
Pretty much Did you work inmarketing before digital.
I did for a few years from like96 to like 03-ish, and in 03, I
was like, only digital now.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I had a couple years that I worked at a newspaper and
it was all print.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Well, I did a print program with a newspaper a long
time ago.
Here's what I tell attorneyswith.
That Is, I'm like 15 years ago,if I would have ran a newspaper
ad for you for X amount ofdollars and you would have
gotten five people clients outof it, you would have been
thrilled.
You know how.
I know that Because I've donethis since people were thrilled
to get one or two clients.
(19:21):
Now, instead you're saying andit's like sometimes I have to
break down for attorneys justsort of simple things like okay,
john, I want you to think aboutthe benefit of a podcast that
reaches millions versus hundreds.
All right, so let's think aboutthis your podcast reaching
millions.
You're in a marketplace of250,000, let's say with you in
(19:45):
the surrounding two counties.
Let's say you're in a state.
Let's put you in Idaho.
So there's really only two.
What?
Idaho Falls, boise.
Is there one other city inIdaho that is a decent size, is
a decent metro?
Well, anyway, let's just sayyou're in Idaho, you're in Boise
, and now you're looking at thisand I don't know what the
(20:08):
population of Boise is, but Iwant to say it's a few hundred
thousand, it's not like upwards.
Let's just put it at half amillion.
You've got a half a millionpeople in your market Just by
the simple fact.
If you got 2 million views onone video, that means that 75%
of those people they wererelents.
(20:28):
Let's just look at that.
First of all, because thereisn't even that many people in
your market.
How many divorces go throughyour court system every year?
Usually, divorce attorneys havebeen around a while.
They'll give you a guesstimate.
Oh, in our market we usuallyhave about 300 or 400 go through
it, given kind of ebbs andflows.
Okay, so let me ask you it's ofmore value Over the next 10
(20:52):
weeks or over the next year?
Every month you put out apodcast and every podcast
reaches 30 of those 300.
That means in two weeks you'veanswered, you've no like, and
now it's just trust to thosepeople in your marketplace that
are looking for an attorney.
So I think they're justsometimes they get so caught up
(21:15):
in like this 12 year old boymakes $27 million a year opening
gifts and they're like well, Imean, I'm a grown man like, or a
grown woman, I just have togive my knowledge and I should
be able to get more than that.
And it's like that's not how itworks and I should be able to
get more than that and it's likethat's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
No, but I like how you're adjusting to the market
and to the market that theyserve and the niche that they
serve within that market,because not everybody is for
everybody right.
I mean, I tell that to myclients all the time and it took
me a couple of years being inbusiness to really figure that
out, and then I took on someclients that I shouldn't have
and neither of us were happy.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You could have the same kind of client every time
and still have to.
I had to fire 15 clients inJanuary just because that 15
clients out of my hundred at thetime were taking up 90 percent
of my team's bandwidth on justnothingness.
So I understand.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
It's not that podcasting wasn't right for them
right, it could be.
They just need an employee todo it, not a podcast network,
right?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, you know, I love lawyers.
They're logical, they'restraightforward, but they could
be a little tough to work withand not all creatives are as
used to dealing with the waythat these people will be.
For example, we had this guyand we were just like I mean, we
fought with him.
He was trying to get free thisand free that and say that we
(22:41):
said this and we pulled thepresentation and we showed him
the transcript.
He was literally trying to getway more money out of us or way
more product out of us than heshould.
He was trying to take a20-minute podcast and make it an
hour and 15 minutes for thesame cost.
And I'm like dude, if you wantan hour and 15-minute podcast
weekly, that's going to be Xamount of dollars, not this over
(23:04):
here.
So, that being said, new guycomes in client success had a
lot of marketing like customerclient success background, but
not specifically with attorneys.
So I said I want you just tosit in with some of these
meetings with our clients.
And he's like okay, so we getin there and it's just like one
attorney starts coming at me oneway and I was just like, well,
(23:26):
listen, like I'm looking at thecontract right now.
This is what you agreed to,this is what you signed to, this
is what we're doing and we gotout of the meeting.
He's like dude, like I'm usedto the customers always right
and I'm like, honestly, if ourcustomers were always right, we
would probably have to pay eachof them a refund for their time
on top of every penny they'veever spent with us.
If they got their way accordingto what they think Maybe not
(23:49):
everybody, but enough of aportion that it would
significantly hurt us.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, you've got to hold to your scope, because once
you get out of that scope thenit's just, it's a downward
spiral.
So I've had to do that andremind people of the scope
several different times andanytime I go beyond scope and
what they've agreed to, italways comes to bite me in the
butt later, you know, becausethey're like well, you didn't
turn this around fast enough andI was like I did it for free,
(24:15):
you didn't actually pay for that, I was doing it, you know, and
it's like okay, then I think allmarketing agencies know, like,
whoever spends the least expectsthe most.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That's why we got rid of our bottom package, because,
like we literally were, justlike, let's just make one where
we just do the video.
No marketing, no ancillary,just boom, boom.
You got a video once a month.
Every client that we had likethat this isn't working.
What is that?
I was like, well, did youmarket it?
Well, no, I didn't market it.
And I'm, like we clearly saidin the thing, this includes no
(24:45):
marketing, must market your ownpodcast if you want to see
success.
Well, you know so.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, well, okay, so this has been just so
enlightening.
I love what you created withthe Legal Podcast Network.
I love how you are leveragingAI to really streamline and add
value for your team and yourclients.
I love that you pointed outthat you know AI needs reviews,
(25:12):
it needs eyes on it.
Right, you're not outsourcingyou, you just made yourself head
of a department, just like yousaid.
So that is amazing, and thankyou so much for sharing it with
us.
Now, before I let you go, I dohave to ask you the question
that I ask all of my guests, andthat is this show is called
Imperfect Marketing, becausemarketing is anything but a
(25:33):
perfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So I've been in marketing since I was 18, 19, I
guess.
So we're coming on Well.
I'm 47.
I'll be 48 this month, so giveor take 30 years, right?
I would say two things, twolessons I've learned in
marketing.
One always learn what's coming.
Two give things time.
(25:59):
I think if you are applyingthose two core principles, among
others know who your ICP is,blah, blah, blah blah.
But I think in just thousandfoot view, those two things
would settle 90% of the lawfirms that I work with
(26:19):
beforehand in the way theirmarketing was.
They're not giving it time andthey're not paying attention to
what's coming, because lawyersare not known for being cutting
edge with their marketing.
That being said, if they werewilling to pay attention, what
I've basically been tellingattorneys right now is I'm just
like listen, if I came to you in2003 and said let's build you a
(26:40):
highly SEO website, what wouldyou say?
And you'd be like listen, if Icame to you in 2003 and said,
let's build you a highly SEOwebsite, what would you say?
And you'd be like oh yeah,let's do it.
Like if you know what you knownow.
So, knowing that the model ofthe of the Internet is changing,
away from reading blogs andblah, blah blah to video.
80 percent of people prefervideo, knowing that it's turning
over to video, knowing that thetwo sources that Gen Z and
(27:01):
Alpha refer to more thananything else by a landslide is
number one TikTok, I'll give youthat one.
But the number two source formedia is podcasts.
For Gen Z and Gen A, whichmeans in 10 years we're not
going to go.
Do you remember when everybodyused to podcast?
In 10 years there's going to bethose sites that around 12 to
(27:33):
15, where they were ugly fromfour to six but yet they showed
up on the front page and theattorney was like I'm not
touching it because it's justdoing great.
Podcasters are going to havethat chance at that time if
they've been doing it andthey're not joining up.
So an attorney in a market nowhas the opportunity by creating
all of this content, becausewhen I put it on YouTube, it
scales in Google.
(27:54):
When I put it like, they havean opportunity to get ahead of
the curve so that in two, threeyears, when podcasting is, it
just is, it does you don't evenhave to say anything.
Podcasting is like right now itexists, it more works in the
margins, it more works amongFrench people.
It's the weird people for themost part, all of us weird
(28:17):
people we flock to this, topodcasting, and you know, and
YouTube when it first came out.
How weird was YouTube when itfirst started, exactly?
But look what it is now.
I mean, it's so much more and Ithink we're going to see the
same thing in podcasting.
The big difference is going tobe professional, business to
business is going to go up to ahigher, whether they bring
(28:38):
in-house people and have theirown like podcasting slash video
crew full time or they work withcompanies like ours that help
them with this.
But that is where we're going.
So pay attention to that, sothat when that seismic shift
happens because everyone's likepaying for Google SEO and yet no
(29:00):
one under 30 Googles they chatGPT.
Now my wife, she's 35, a littlebit.
My wife, she's a little youngerthan me, 35.
And like I'm just like I can't,I can't do this, I can't do it.
She'll be like, oh, I fixed it.
I'm like what she's like?
I took a picture of the TV withchat with and chat GPT and I
told it what it was doing and ittold me exactly what to do and
(29:22):
I was like, really she's likeyeah, like I was like here, I am
using chat GPT like Googleright, just thinking it's better
results.
And I read that old people usechat GPT like Google.
Young people use chat GPT morelike for learning and building
and like bots and AI, and theyunderstand that it's a universe,
(29:44):
not a program on the internet,and so I would really encourage
anybody.
Like, when I hire people rightnow, the first thing I do is I
put them through as much AIprograms as I can.
I've got like the course of one.
I'm like you know, 22, 25.
I've been hiring a few more ofthose lately because we're
animating with AI, our firstpodcast and so, like you know,
(30:08):
just look at a lot of this stuff, hiring these guys and the
first thing I do that they'relike I don't know what to do.
I'm like just go learn all theAI stuff and they are almost
better marketers if they justlearn starting AI than if they
start from way back.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
And I know you said 30 minutes and that probably
extended past it, so that's okay, that's all right, because I
think that there was a lot ofreally good information here and
a lot in your lesson learnedthat we can all learn from right
.
We all need to be giving ourmarketing time and we all need
to be looking to see where thefuture is going.
That's why I gave up my audioonly podcast and went ahead and
(30:43):
set it up with video, right?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
So I think Because that's where it's at.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Right and that's where it's headed, and you've
got to keep going and keepmoving forward and adjusting and
testing, because it's not aperfect science, right, and it's
going to continue to change andwhere people go for their
information is also going tocontinue to change.
So thank you again so much forjoining me.
I really appreciate it.
We'll have links and every wayto get a hold of DM in the show
(31:11):
notes If you have any questionsand wanna connect with him, and,
of course, links to his legalpodcast network, which is very,
very intriguing.
So if you want to learn more,check that out.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
If you go on socials, we have four brands.
We have legal podcast networkfor business owners, so all of
our business attorneys and theadvice that they give.
So we have outlets for that.
We have lawyerlolz, so meansand having fun to connect with
lawyers.
We have four lawyers because wehave probably approaching about
(31:49):
10 shows where people thatserve the legal industry
consultants I'm talking to likea lady who's who dresses men and
women attorneys for power orsomething I don't know.
So she's going to have a show.
I have a lady who helps peoplewith video and so we're able to
just kind of give them all ofthat, not just be like, hey, let
(32:09):
us produce your video.
This is a whole like we'rebuilding a whole system where
attorneys can come in, they canbetter their practice through
learning and they can bettertheir practice through teaching.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I love it, love it.
So be sure to tune in anothertime here on Imperfect Marketing
.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello, and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Korman,and I am really excited to be
joined today by Dennis.
Dennis started a podcastingsystem specifically for
attorneys and I love podcastingas a marketing tool, so I'm
super happy to have you.
Thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you very much.
Good to be here.
Already enjoyed our what dothey call that?
The green room discussion, so Ithink we'll have some fun
talking and digging into some ofthe stuff we've already said we
want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yes, because there is so much stuff.
So tell me and tell everybodywhat had you?
Start a podcasting system andnetwork.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, I did a podcast in 2019 in Austin and what I
saw and where I really feel likethere's a great or there's a
lot of opportunity in socialmedia and in really what is you
know, with YouTube and Spotifyand everything, where we're all
our own media company now and Ithink that we don't think like
(01:27):
business owners, don't think ofthemselves as media companies,
but if they're doing their ownmarketing and they're trying
their own thing, you know theyare a media company and a lawyer
, they are a media company and acoach or consultant or whatever
.
Most people don't realize that.
And so when I did my podcast in2019 in Austin, it was just a
(01:49):
podcast about.
I called it FML ATX food, musicand life, not F my life.
Right, we started off as ATX AF.
Oh, it was FML per DM, becauseI actually go by DM.
That's why I put it in thething by my initials, because
I'm a junior, just makes iteasier.
What I noticed is you know, Ibrought in like three cameras.
One of them was shooting in 4kin 2019.
(02:12):
I had two sound people, I had aI don't even know like a gopher
and I had a co host.
I'd like 10 people on thispodcast team that I paid.
They were like full timeworking blah blah couple editors
.
All of that and what I noticedis I was not, by any stretch of
the imagination, the only persontrying to cover music, cover
food, cover life in Austin.
(02:33):
There was a lot of lifestylepodcasts, but mine quickly rose
to the top for one reason, andthat was production value.
And so that was my takeawaymade some great friends out of
it, didn't monetize the podcast,really didn't have any
intention.
I did 60 episodes in threemonths.
They were all on location atplaces, and I ended up spending
(02:56):
about $150,000 just to make ahigh quality podcast that now
sits on YouTube and has anywherefrom 30 to 3,000 views on each
show.
So what do I take away fromthat right?
So in life we either havefailures or lessons, depending
on how we look at it.
My lesson was when you putsomething out with a higher
production value than the median, it immediately makes an impact
(03:19):
and others respond much betterto it.
So I knew that Well.
I've worked with attorneys for20 years.
I was in an SEO agency with myformer partner.
He bought me out, I came out onmy own, and one of the things
that I had suggested to him waslike hey, I think podcasting for
lawyers would be great.
We ended up doing an answeringservice instead, no big deal.
(03:40):
But when me and him broke off,that's when I launched this
network deal.
But when me and him broke off,that's when I launched this
network, because I know that ifwe can provide a simple turnkey,
something that doesn't take upa lot of their times and is cost
effective, a method in whichattorneys can utilize that to
not just market themselves butseparate themselves, because
(04:03):
this is authority positioning.
What we're doing is we'resaying listen, you are going to
be our divorce attorney for theDFW metro area.
You got Dallas County, you gotTarrant County, you're the only
divorce lawyer we're workingwith in this marketplace.
And so now they're not the onlydivorce lawyer, they're not the
only podcast, they're not theonly social media marketer.
(04:23):
We can't shut everything.
I had somebody ask me that howcan you not let anybody else
have a podcast?
I'm like listen, it's not apodcast, it's on our network.
With our production, we gotinto it.
Basically, where I saw theopportunity is if I can make it
simple, cost-effective and takevery little bit of their time.
Really that's a winning formulafor any marketing thing, but on
(04:46):
top of it, this thing works andour attorneys are just like
right now we're just like.
I'm like hey guys, every clientthat's been with us more than
six months, at the end of theirnext shoot, shoot a testimony
with them.
Because when I talk to everysingle one of those clients,
every single one gives me astory about a client.
Every single one gives me astory about how much they love
(05:06):
what we're doing, what it's donefor them, not just as a
attorney to get clients, butamong other attorneys, and they
love it.
So we're just now justgarnering all that and bringing
that in to be able to just nowgo back to attorneys and go guys
, it's simple, doesn't cost alot and it's super effective.
Now let's work together andthat's really what we're trying
(05:29):
to do.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I love, and one thing I want to point out about that
is I love how you'respecifically making time to go
get those testimonials, becauseit's something we forget to do
so often, right, and people arebusy, so if you just send them
an email, they're not all goingto respond, even if they love
your stuff, right.
So taking that time is awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, we have this advantage, right.
We have them in front of thecamera.
How often?
At least every four months atleast.
You know some people, we haveit twice a month.
All I do is we call them up andwe just launch this new product
where we went from three to 30.
And you know, like we have, wewent from like just random
emails for people on the teamhey, this is done.
Check it to like now we have astructured Monday morning email
(06:13):
with all their actions,everything we've done,
everything they need, all ofthat.
So we're transitioning awayfrom like kind of like that
haphazard sort of approach andthen coming in and saying, ok,
here's everything laid out foryou.
I mean you basically demystifiedpodcasting and specifically for
that is a chat GPT word thatdid not exist until a year ago.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I've used that word for years.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Have you used it for more than five years?
Yes, I will allow you a pass.
You are the first person,Because we literally have a
database of words not allowed inour marketing.
Demystify delve.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Deep dive, dive, deep Crucial.
I got them too.
I got a whole list and it's sofunny because I write stuff
myself and I'll use those words,but my AI outputs don't help.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it's you know.
So anyway, sorry I was teasingyou.
You're good, go ahead.
You're good, I'm like no no, no, I've got this.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I had a big vocabulary to start with.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It wasn't just AI.
Problem is with vocabulary,because I've read profusely
since I was like four or fiveyears old and from like first
grade on that, I can read like a12th grade level.
They told me, you know thoseold tests you take every year,
and so I'm a pretty voraciousreader.
Plus, I grew up in church andwe use like the old King James
(07:41):
Bible, so I've got that likevocabulary accessible on top of
the fact of like like so much ofour English is built off of
that.
You know that book so.
But what I find is it's easierfor me to use big words when I'm
struggling, like I'm notrunning on all cylinders, I
can't talk simply, I can onlythink of the word that perfectly
encapsulates my thought.
I can't think of the broader,general thing that explains it
(08:04):
to them so they can actuallyunderstand me.
And so when I find myself usinga lot of big words, I kind of
like slow down because I'm likeokay, mentally my reservoir has
come down a little bit and Ineed to recharge a little bit,
get my brain back up to whereI'm doing things correctly.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yes, and AI is a good helper with that.
It's like okay, can you explainthis to someone who doesn't
know all my acronyms?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You've been using, leveraging AI speaking of AI,
right so your podcast network,you've been using it in your
company.
What's it done for you?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
It's 10x, literally our product.
So when we started a littleover a year ago, it was a show,
three pieces of content, andthey were all shorts or reels,
one before one, right around thesame time the show got released
and one after.
And what we saw in thebeginning was this is a great
(08:59):
supplementary product.
But what I've learned aboutmost small law firms is and
they'll buy one marketing system, try it for six months, not get
a ton of results and then moveon to the next marketing system
for four months.
So that's just something thatwe've seen throughout the years,
(09:20):
and so what we try to do is,internally knowing that, keep
that plugged in with everythingthat we're doing.
Like I said, we 10x'd.
We also are able to now, likeevery week and that's not quite
in AI yet, but a lot of piecesof AI put the reporting together
and every week we send them anemail with the five things they
(09:43):
need.
This is when your last podcastwas produced or when it was
released.
This is when the next one willbe released and where you can
see them.
Okay, this is when you need onewill be released and where you
can see them.
Okay, this is when you need toschedule your next podcast by no
later.
You can do one hour session ortwo hour session.
Okay, here's all of the contentthat's going out this week.
Here's all the content that wewant to go out next week.
(10:03):
But we just need you to look atit.
Make sure you don't hate it.
I don't remember what the lastthing was, but it's five things,
and so we list that for themand we're getting ready,
hopefully, to even be able toautomate all of that.
So every time we find all thesebig, huge things where I'm
talking to my team and we'relike, should we hire two or
three people?
And then I'm like, well, holdon, let's just see what we can
(10:26):
find out there.
And we go and I look and Ihonestly cannot count the amount
of AI things I've looked at inthe last year.
But we look, we find a need andnow all of a sudden, instead of
hiring three people at, youknow, let's say they're offshore
at 500 bucks a month, 1500bucks a month I find a software
for $220 a month or $39 a month.
(10:47):
You know, a lot of these AIthings are even cheaper because
you know they can be duplicated.
So with us being able to dothat, that's really helped us
with our clients.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So one of the things that I get from people all the
time and actually I just did apresentation on AI the day we're
recording but someone waspushing back and they feel that
AI is bland and that it's notthe right content, which is why
I love podcasts, because themajority of podcasts, because
(11:18):
now there's AI generatedpodcasts, but the majority of AI
podcasts are real people.
They're real content.
Even if they're AI characters,they're still.
It's still real content to alarge extent.
What are your thoughts about AIin podcasting and for this
thought leadership yourattorneys are doing?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
We use it for content plans, question plans, we use
it for ancillary.
We don't build with AI, wesupplement with AI, and what I
tell people is in our companyit's always AI, then eyes, so
it's an AI person.
Then they added it and they puttheir eyes on it.
Then they send it to one otherperson and we have people from
(11:57):
California to the Philippinesand everywhere in between so
they might send it from like.
We have a team in Pakistanfull-time I think we're at 15 or
17 now.
They'll finish it.
Then they always send it tosomebody in the United States
and then the people in theUnited States go through.
You know, I gave an example ofthis today.
I said listen.
I said you know, we've got toget, we've got to work on our
(12:18):
finish editing because we wantto insert B-roll.
And we've been doing B-roll inshort video, which is easy to
fix and easy to work with.
But I want to put it in ourlong video because of the two to
three minutes of attention thatyou get.
If you don't move the cameraview every two minutes, then
people get bored, you know.
So I'm like, listen, I want touse B-roll.
I said.
(12:38):
But the problem is, I said thisto my team director over there.
I said, when your people put inB-roll, it will fill in.
Something like, for example,how like a business office, but
in this business office it'll befilled with women with hijabs.
And I'm like now to your guysprobably they don't even see it,
(13:01):
but when you send that to anAmerican and say business and
they see a bunch of hijabs,they're just like who put, this
must have been put together inIndia.
So it's that kind of thing.
That's why we always send ourstuff to Americanize.
And then I mean, I'm not goingto deny, I've got a 23 year old
daughter.
She's got health issues.
She sits on her computer.
(13:21):
She makes a few hundred dollarsa week just watching videos,
pausing it, writing down theproblem, sending it back in a
spreadsheet.
My 19 year old daughter sheworks in a hospital, she's got a
good job, but she was sick fortwo weeks and she's like dad,
I'm a little behind.
Hey, I'll send that off to them.
So we've got people internally,we've got people externally.
We've got, you know, and wealways measure.
(13:42):
Like, the way we measure is ifthey do these hundred of these
hundred, how many attorneys setback something, and if attorneys
send back somethingconsistently, then you know
obviously we've got an issue.
But that's what we do with AIis maybe instead of saying AI,
it is AI than human eyes.
That's what I want to startsaying.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I did like when you said AI than eyes, because
that's so true, because that'swhat I tell people all the time.
I'm like AI doesn't replace you, definitely doesn't replace you
.
You still have to review whatit gives you.
You have to review that output.
Someone's like you're a.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Finnish editor Like.
That's just all there is to it.
You didn't buy a department,you put yourself at the head of
a department.
That's what you did.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Exactly, and I think that that really keeps it from
being watered down.
I mean, the content that you'recreating and that your podcast
network has are the realthoughts of these attorneys
right?
These are the key studies, thetips, the information for the
people that are experiencing,whatever it is the topic they
cover, right?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
We literally come in and we bring them on and they're
exclusive for their market.
I think I mentioned thatalready.
And then we don't just say, ok,you're a family lawyer, ok,
we're going to just talk aboutfamily.
We dig in and we say, ok, letme ask you a question.
If you could have one clienttype of client, what does that
client or three types, orwhatever it is what do those
(15:08):
clients look like?
And I always like to use thisexample for divorce.
I could say I'm a divorcelawyer, but am I a quickie
divorce lawyer for 500 bucks?
Because that's a wholedifferent way to market.
I've got to market to as manypeople as cheap as possible,
right?
Whereas on the other end of thespectrum, if you are in a major
metro area and you only workwith high, high net worth
(15:28):
individuals with custody and allkinds of assets and all kinds
of stuff like that, well, you'remaking $50,000, $2 million.
I read something the other dayfrom a divorce lawyer the most
he's ever made off one divorcecase $3 million, wow.
But he split up $4 billion.
(15:49):
Probably percentage-wise wasn'tgreat, but still he made $3
million off of one divorcebecause it was, you know, just
there was $4 billion to splitand however that ended up.
So there's all kinds ofspectrums of cases, and so what
we then do is we start writingcontent, for example, instead of
saying something like where isthe cheapest divorce lawyer in
(16:10):
Dallas or who is the cheapestdivorce lawyer in Dallas?
We don't want him to show upfor that.
We want him to show up for whathappens to my boat in a divorce
, what happens to my lake housein a divorce, or a second home
in a divorce.
Why Indicates assets?
Two this is a smarter shopper,he looking for he or she.
(16:31):
They're looking for somebody tohelp them, not just I need a
lawyer and I need to find onecheap.
They understand that there aregood lawyers and bad lawyers and
they're not all just the same,and so those people that do what
are called query based searchesthere's that advantage, plus
what all of the languagelearning models being built off
(16:52):
of Questions and answers, right.
So I already have my clientssaying I just had somebody find
me on ChatGPT, I just hadsomebody else find me on ChatGPT
, and they're like I don't evenknow how I got there.
And then I'm like look at yourinfrastructure of marketing and
what you're putting out there,and your website has answers and
(17:12):
you're in that marketplace thatyou're sitting in or that that
person is in.
So, when they're typing thesespecific questions and specific
issues and they need clarity andthey need their fears assuaged,
guess what everybody else issaying come to my website, I do
it all.
I can help you call me whileyou're saying I'm sorry, what
was the issue?
Oh, high asset divorce.
(17:32):
Well, typically, what happens?
Oh, with the boat?
Yeah, now, not specifically,but they feel like it's tailored
towards them.
So now they're going to theattorney with a desire.
They've gone past the no andlike and it's just confirming
trust.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That is what we are trying to do for our clients is?
It's not about, you know, threemillion views.
Hey, let's get them placed onsome podcasts.
It doesn't all have to be news,right?
And the PR firm's like, well,that's going to take us a while
to do the research, to seewhat's worth your time, and I'm
like, do our people listen to it?
Again, even if it's the 30people, if five of them donate
(18:31):
or join or whatever it is forthe nonprofit, that's all we
need.
Yeah exactly.
And I'd rather it be 30 peoplerather than 30,000 people,
because out of the 30,000, wemight get one because it's such
a wide group right.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Are you all digital in your career?
Pretty much Did you work inmarketing before digital.
I did for a few years from like96 to like 03-ish, and in 03, I
was like, only digital now.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I had a couple years that I worked at a newspaper and
it was all print.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Well, I did a print program with a newspaper a long
time ago.
Here's what I tell attorneyswith.
That Is, I'm like 15 years ago,if I would have ran a newspaper
ad for you for X amount ofdollars and you would have
gotten five people clients outof it, you would have been
thrilled.
You know how.
I know that Because I've donethis since people were thrilled
to get one or two clients.
(19:21):
Now, instead you're saying andit's like sometimes I have to
break down for attorneys justsort of simple things like okay,
john, I want you to think aboutthe benefit of a podcast that
reaches millions versus hundreds.
All right, so let's think aboutthis your podcast reaching
millions.
You're in a marketplace of250,000, let's say with you in
(19:45):
the surrounding two counties.
Let's say you're in a state.
Let's put you in Idaho.
So there's really only two.
What?
Idaho Falls, boise.
Is there one other city inIdaho that is a decent size, is
a decent metro?
Well, anyway, let's just sayyou're in Idaho, you're in Boise
, and now you're looking at thisand I don't know what the
(20:08):
population of Boise is, but Iwant to say it's a few hundred
thousand, it's not like upwards.
Let's just put it at half amillion.
You've got a half a millionpeople in your market Just by
the simple fact.
If you got 2 million views onone video, that means that 75%
of those people they wererelents.
(20:28):
Let's just look at that.
First of all, because thereisn't even that many people in
your market.
How many divorces go throughyour court system every year?
Usually, divorce attorneys havebeen around a while.
They'll give you a guesstimate.
Oh, in our market we usuallyhave about 300 or 400 go through
it, given kind of ebbs andflows.
Okay, so let me ask you it's ofmore value Over the next 10
(20:52):
weeks or over the next year?
Every month you put out apodcast and every podcast
reaches 30 of those 300.
That means in two weeks you'veanswered, you've no like, and
now it's just trust to thosepeople in your marketplace that
are looking for an attorney.
So I think they're justsometimes they get so caught up
(21:15):
in like this 12 year old boymakes $27 million a year opening
gifts and they're like well, Imean, I'm a grown man like, or a
grown woman, I just have togive my knowledge and I should
be able to get more than that.
And it's like that's not how itworks and I should be able to
get more than that and it's likethat's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
No, but I like how you're adjusting to the market
and to the market that theyserve and the niche that they
serve within that market,because not everybody is for
everybody right.
I mean, I tell that to myclients all the time and it took
me a couple of years being inbusiness to really figure that
out, and then I took on someclients that I shouldn't have
and neither of us were happy.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You could have the same kind of client every time
and still have to.
I had to fire 15 clients inJanuary just because that 15
clients out of my hundred at thetime were taking up 90 percent
of my team's bandwidth on justnothingness.
So I understand.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
It's not that podcasting wasn't right for them
right, it could be.
They just need an employee todo it, not a podcast network,
right?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, you know, I love lawyers.
They're logical, they'restraightforward, but they could
be a little tough to work withand not all creatives are as
used to dealing with the waythat these people will be.
For example, we had this guyand we were just like I mean, we
fought with him.
He was trying to get free thisand free that and say that we
(22:41):
said this and we pulled thepresentation and we showed him
the transcript.
He was literally trying to getway more money out of us or way
more product out of us than heshould.
He was trying to take a20-minute podcast and make it an
hour and 15 minutes for thesame cost.
And I'm like dude, if you wantan hour and 15-minute podcast
weekly, that's going to be Xamount of dollars, not this over
(23:04):
here.
So, that being said, new guycomes in client success had a
lot of marketing like customerclient success background, but
not specifically with attorneys.
So I said I want you just tosit in with some of these
meetings with our clients.
And he's like okay, so we getin there and it's just like one
attorney starts coming at me oneway and I was just like, well,
(23:26):
listen, like I'm looking at thecontract right now.
This is what you agreed to,this is what you signed to, this
is what we're doing and we gotout of the meeting.
He's like dude, like I'm usedto the customers always right
and I'm like, honestly, if ourcustomers were always right, we
would probably have to pay eachof them a refund for their time
on top of every penny they'veever spent with us.
If they got their way accordingto what they think Maybe not
(23:49):
everybody, but enough of aportion that it would
significantly hurt us.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, you've got to hold to your scope, because once
you get out of that scope thenit's just, it's a downward
spiral.
So I've had to do that andremind people of the scope
several different times andanytime I go beyond scope and
what they've agreed to, italways comes to bite me in the
butt later, you know, becausethey're like well, you didn't
turn this around fast enough andI was like I did it for free,
(24:15):
you didn't actually pay for that, I was doing it, you know, and
it's like okay, then I think allmarketing agencies know, like,
whoever spends the least expectsthe most.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That's why we got rid of our bottom package, because,
like we literally were, justlike, let's just make one where
we just do the video.
No marketing, no ancillary,just boom, boom.
You got a video once a month.
Every client that we had likethat this isn't working.
What is that?
I was like, well, did youmarket it?
Well, no, I didn't market it.
And I'm, like we clearly saidin the thing, this includes no
(24:45):
marketing, must market your ownpodcast if you want to see
success.
Well, you know so.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, well, okay, so this has been just so
enlightening.
I love what you created withthe Legal Podcast Network.
I love how you are leveragingAI to really streamline and add
value for your team and yourclients.
I love that you pointed outthat you know AI needs reviews,
(25:12):
it needs eyes on it.
Right, you're not outsourcingyou, you just made yourself head
of a department, just like yousaid.
So that is amazing, and thankyou so much for sharing it with
us.
Now, before I let you go, I dohave to ask you the question
that I ask all of my guests, andthat is this show is called
Imperfect Marketing, becausemarketing is anything but a
(25:33):
perfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So I've been in marketing since I was 18, 19, I
guess.
So we're coming on Well.
I'm 47.
I'll be 48 this month, so giveor take 30 years, right?
I would say two things, twolessons I've learned in
marketing.
One always learn what's coming.
Two give things time.
(25:59):
I think if you are applyingthose two core principles, among
others know who your ICP is,blah, blah, blah blah.
But I think in just thousandfoot view, those two things
would settle 90% of the lawfirms that I work with
(26:19):
beforehand in the way theirmarketing was.
They're not giving it time andthey're not paying attention to
what's coming, because lawyersare not known for being cutting
edge with their marketing.
That being said, if they werewilling to pay attention, what
I've basically been tellingattorneys right now is I'm just
like listen, if I came to you in2003 and said let's build you a
(26:40):
highly SEO website, what wouldyou say?
And you'd be like listen, if Icame to you in 2003 and said,
let's build you a highly SEOwebsite, what would you say?
And you'd be like oh yeah,let's do it.
Like if you know what you knownow.
So, knowing that the model ofthe of the Internet is changing,
away from reading blogs andblah, blah blah to video.
80 percent of people prefervideo, knowing that it's turning
over to video, knowing that thetwo sources that Gen Z and
(27:01):
Alpha refer to more thananything else by a landslide is
number one TikTok, I'll give youthat one.
But the number two source formedia is podcasts.
For Gen Z and Gen A, whichmeans in 10 years we're not
going to go.
Do you remember when everybodyused to podcast?
In 10 years there's going to bethose sites that around 12 to
(27:33):
15, where they were ugly fromfour to six but yet they showed
up on the front page and theattorney was like I'm not
touching it because it's justdoing great.
Podcasters are going to havethat chance at that time if
they've been doing it andthey're not joining up.
So an attorney in a market nowhas the opportunity by creating
all of this content, becausewhen I put it on YouTube, it
scales in Google.
(27:54):
When I put it like, they havean opportunity to get ahead of
the curve so that in two, threeyears, when podcasting is, it
just is, it does you don't evenhave to say anything.
Podcasting is like right now itexists, it more works in the
margins, it more works amongFrench people.
It's the weird people for themost part, all of us weird
(28:17):
people we flock to this, topodcasting, and you know, and
YouTube when it first came out.
How weird was YouTube when itfirst started, exactly?
But look what it is now.
I mean, it's so much more and Ithink we're going to see the
same thing in podcasting.
The big difference is going tobe professional, business to
business is going to go up to ahigher, whether they bring
(28:38):
in-house people and have theirown like podcasting slash video
crew full time or they work withcompanies like ours that help
them with this.
But that is where we're going.
So pay attention to that, sothat when that seismic shift
happens because everyone's likepaying for Google SEO and yet no
(29:00):
one under 30 Googles they chatGPT.
Now my wife, she's 35, a littlebit.
My wife, she's a little youngerthan me, 35.
And like I'm just like I can't,I can't do this, I can't do it.
She'll be like, oh, I fixed it.
I'm like what she's like?
I took a picture of the TV withchat with and chat GPT and I
told it what it was doing and ittold me exactly what to do and
(29:22):
I was like, really she's likeyeah, like I was like here, I am
using chat GPT like Googleright, just thinking it's better
results.
And I read that old people usechat GPT like Google.
Young people use chat GPT morelike for learning and building
and like bots and AI, and theyunderstand that it's a universe,
(29:44):
not a program on the internet,and so I would really encourage
anybody.
Like, when I hire people rightnow, the first thing I do is I
put them through as much AIprograms as I can.
I've got like the course of one.
I'm like you know, 22, 25.
I've been hiring a few more ofthose lately because we're
animating with AI, our firstpodcast and so, like you know,
(30:08):
just look at a lot of this stuff, hiring these guys and the
first thing I do that they'relike I don't know what to do.
I'm like just go learn all theAI stuff and they are almost
better marketers if they justlearn starting AI than if they
start from way back.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
And I know you said 30 minutes and that probably
extended past it, so that's okay, that's all right, because I
think that there was a lot ofreally good information here and
a lot in your lesson learnedthat we can all learn from right
.
We all need to be giving ourmarketing time and we all need
to be looking to see where thefuture is going.
That's why I gave up my audioonly podcast and went ahead and
(30:43):
set it up with video, right?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
So I think Because that's where it's at.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Right and that's where it's headed, and you've
got to keep going and keepmoving forward and adjusting and
testing, because it's not aperfect science, right, and it's
going to continue to change andwhere people go for their
information is also going tocontinue to change.
So thank you again so much forjoining me.
I really appreciate it.
We'll have links and every wayto get a hold of DM in the show
(31:11):
notes If you have any questionsand wanna connect with him, and,
of course, links to his legalpodcast network, which is very,
very intriguing.
So if you want to learn more,check that out.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
If you go on socials, we have four brands.
We have legal podcast networkfor business owners, so all of
our business attorneys and theadvice that they give.
So we have outlets for that.
We have lawyerlolz, so meansand having fun to connect with
lawyers.
We have four lawyers because wehave probably approaching about
(31:49):
10 shows where people thatserve the legal industry
consultants I'm talking to likea lady who's who dresses men and
women attorneys for power orsomething I don't know.
So she's going to have a show.
I have a lady who helps peoplewith video and so we're able to
just kind of give them all ofthat, not just be like, hey, let
(32:09):
us produce your video.
This is a whole like we'rebuilding a whole system where
attorneys can come in, they canbetter their practice through
learning and they can bettertheir practice through teaching.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I love it, love it.
So be sure to tune in anothertime here on Imperfect Marketing
.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
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