October 2, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Eric Smith, President & COO of Incremental Media, to explore the world of podcast advertising and how businesses can leverage it effectively.
Eric shares his journey from Vox Media to building Incremental Media’s podcast division from the ground up. We discuss:
The Evolution of Podcast Advertising
- How podcast ads connect to traditional marketing like package inserts
- Why host-read endorsements deliver stronger trust and engagement
- The rise of podcasts as a core channel for brands seeking diversification
Demystifying Podcast Attribution
- Why promo codes only tell part of the story
- How tools like Podscribe bring digital-style tracking to podcasts
- Understanding the real ROI of podcast campaigns
Finding the Right Fit for Brands
- Why “considered purchases” outperform impulse buys
- How niche podcasts often deliver stronger results than large shows
- The importance of testing across multiple categories—not just your own industry
Getting Started with Podcast Advertising
- Practical steps to launch a test campaign
- Budget flexibility and how to avoid overspending
- Why partnering with experts can help you identify the right shows
Key Takeaways for Marketers
- Storytelling and authenticity make podcast ads powerful
- Data and attribution tools are critical for measuring success
- Diversification matters—sometimes the best-performing shows aren’t what you expect
Connect with Eric Smith:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-smith-a0a07b54/
Website: https://www.incrementalmedia.com/
Whether you’re a small business owner curious about podcast advertising or a seasoned marketer looking to diversify your media mix, this episode offers valuable insights into harnessing the power of podcast audiences.
Are you ready to explore how podcast advertising could transform your business? Tune in to learn how to navigate this fast-growing and effective marketing channel.
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Corman,and today I am joined by Eric
Smith and we are going to betalking about podcasting, but a
little bit different than wenormally do.
Today, we're going to betalking about getting exposure,
leveraging audiences, throughpodcast advertising.
Welcome, eric.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
(00:48):
Thanks, kendra, excited to behere.
Talk to me about how did youget into podcast advertising?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, kind of by accident.
I mean, I've always been a bigpodcast listener, just from a
consumer standpoint.
So I've been at my currentcompany, incremental Media, for
the past five and a half years.
But before that I spent anotherfive years at a company called
Vox Media, which is a bigdigital publisher.
So they have brands like Vox,voxcom, eater, curbed, sb Nation
.
They merged with New YorkMagazine when I was there, so a
(01:15):
big digital publisher, and theyhad a really rapidly growing
podcast business.
So I sort of, you know, learnedthe foundation of the podcast
world when I was there on moreof the publisher side, and now
here at Increments Media we're amarketing partner who helps
brands diversify their media mixinto channels like podcast
advertising.
So now I'm more on kind of thebuying side as opposed to the
selling side.
So I've kind of seen both areasof my unique podcast world.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Very cool, very interesting.
So why do you guys recommendand represent brands and buy
space on podcast?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Like I said, I joined five and a half years ago now.
I moved into the president andCOO role in January and I came
basically to build out ourpodcast division.
The company had historicallybeen in more kind of traditional
offline channels.
So package inserts is what thecompany was most well known for,
so like when you get a packageand there's printed offers from
other brands inside.
(02:05):
We're actually the largestbuyer of inserts in the country,
so we're huge in that space.
But you know, we had sort ofdecided to kind of want to
evolve the company a little bitand podcasts have a lot of
surprising similarities to someof those more traditional
channels, so even in just theway that they do attribution so
meaning like using a promo codeis a very basic example to sort
of evaluate the individualpodcasts and then how we sort of
(02:27):
, you know, buy the advertisingis on like a podcast by podcast
basis, kind of like an insertprogram, answer program basis.
So there's a lot of uniquesimilarities.
So the founder and CEO of thecompany was just sort of
deciding to kind of diversifytheir offering and we had, you
know, built a relationship anddecided that it made sense for
me to sort of kind of build thepodcast division from the ground
up and you know, technicallyspeaking we have six channels we
(02:49):
specialize in, but podcasts isnow our second biggest and some
of the other channels have likea 15 year head start.
So podcasts have grown reallybig really fast, which is
exciting and, just, you know,challenging for me to kind of
figure out all the you know funand challenges that come along
with that.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Well, and I never thought of the similarity
between the inserts and podcastadvertising, but I can
definitely see it because it'svery niche, right, you're
targeting into a specificaudience that follows a certain
show or falls into a categorythat would be interested in that
show, right, whereas, likecertain things like subscription
(03:26):
boxes, like I get those insertsall the time with.
I like FabFitFun is my bigexample I always get a ton of
those little inserts in there.
I never thought of it that way,but I think that, yeah, there's
, it's a lot of efficiency thatyou can purchase because you're
targeting such a specificaudience and it's an audience
that's already a following.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
We do like to, as a company, kind of be a big fish
in a smaller pond, right?
So there's, you know, hundreds,if not thousands, of companies
that can help you with digitaladvertising, but there's only
really a handful that knowpodcasts or know inserts in the
way that we do.
So, you know, even just from abusiness standpoint, we felt
like it's a place where we couldget big quickly and really make
a name for ourselves.
So, yeah, it kind of fits intoour little incremental media
(04:08):
world as well.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
You know, I work with a lot of small to medium sized
businesses and we're alwaystrying to figure out okay, how
can we get effective andefficient marketing, and there's
only so much that social mediawill bring it right.
You got to go beyond that toget your name out there, and I
know that there was a bunch ofresearch that was done, a lot.
It feels like I should say along time ago I actually don't
(04:30):
even remember how long ago itwas anymore, but it wasn't
yesterday, so I'm going to gowith a long time ago.
That said, audio is more wellretained by, I think, the
listener than almost any othermedium and they have a tendency
to have better recall on the adsand podcasts and on Spotify and
(04:52):
things like that.
Have you guys been finding that, or how are you measuring
success?
Is it just the tracking?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Oh yeah, so it's a good question.
So well, first, we specializemainly in what we call the host
endorsed style, right?
So we're sending physicalproducts most of the time to
hosts and then having them talkabout that experience in the ad
reads.
So a good example is like wework with Naked Wines and they
send wine to hosts and thenhosts say you know, I had a
glass of whatever for my NakedWines box recently.
(05:20):
So if you have a physicalproduct, I think that's kind of
the best way to utilize the fullvalue of podcasts, not to say,
if you don't, you know you can'talso have success there.
But that's really what it's bestfor, I would say, is that kind
of like e-commerce.
Sometimes subscription brands doreally well too.
But from an attributionstandpoint not to get too
technical but basically wepartner with a company called
(05:40):
PodScribe that essentiallybrings the same elements of
digital advertising to podcasts.
So you know they can have apixel within the podcast that
fires and then a pixel on yoursite so they can say hey, you
know, I know person listens tothis podcast, came through and
converted and matches on IPaddress.
So it's very similar toconnected TV advertising, if
anyone's ever tried that before,but it's really the most kind
(06:00):
of sophisticated way to say okay, you know, maybe 100 people use
my promo code, but Podscribepicks up 300 people and it's
like, hey, not everyone's usingthe promo code for a million
different reasons.
They might have gotten hit withyour you know, facebook ad or
Instagram ad afterwards and gota better offer there or you know
, whatever it may be.
So yeah, long-winded way ofsaying like PodScribe is a
really, really helpful tool tosort of bring the elements of
(06:21):
digital advertising that peopleare used to into our more kind
of you know traditional audiooffline world.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I love that and I've always been a fan of host reads
or the host perspective, becausethey don't fast forward that
section right.
I mean when they start playingthe ad right, a pre-recorded ad
or something like that.
A lot of times people areskipping on their phones or
their device and you don't dothat when the host is speaking
and so that natural in read isso much better.
(06:52):
I mean, way back in the daywhen radio was popular, we did
that.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
We talk about it a lot in terms of, like, people
have like a relationship withtheir hosts.
Right, like I've, you know,listened to Bill Simmons for
probably a decade.
At this point, like I feel likeI know him.
You know, do I really I don'tknow, but I feel like I do.
So same type of thing with,probably, you and your listeners
, right, they feel like they'vegotten to know you and, you know
, sometimes people say theythink of podcast hosts as like a
friend.
(07:17):
So you're trying to sort ofcapture on to like, hey, you
trust me, I like wine, check outNaked Wines.
They make a really cool,interesting product.
So you're sort of trying to,you know, just like influencer
advertising or anything else.
But you got to sort of, youknow, if you're a marketer out
there listening, like try andfind the sort of niche that
makes sense for you.
You know, like I have a friendwho makes religious jewelry and
(07:37):
he's found like religiouspodcasts that you know hosts
that are sort of speaking aboutprayer or something personal to
them.
So, anyways, you got to kind ofsort of find your category or
niche that that makes the mostsense.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Well, and again, I mean, there's just so many
niches on in podcasting that youcan find the audience, and not
all of them are huge.
There's a lot of smaller sizedaudiences.
That's good, because that meansyou're not getting the extra
noise from other places, and Ithink that that's so important.
And, yeah, I mean that's why Ido podcasting is to help
(08:10):
accelerate the no like and trustfactor.
Right, they hear me, watch me,listen to me every week.
Right, consistently I'm here.
I would like to think thatwe're building a relationship.
Okay, for those of youlistening and watching, I know
you, I love you, we're good,we're friends, okay, so what
makes this so effective?
(08:30):
Is it just the niche?
Is it the product?
Because you guys are sendingthe product.
What's resonating with yourclients?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I mean I would argue, I guess, a couple of
different things.
One, it helps to go to anexpert, right?
I mean I think you nailed itLike there's now over 4 million
podcasts that exist.
I mean there's only, let's say,like five to 10,000 that are
like actually big enough toadvertise on, that have some
elements of scale to them.
So even just from the five to10,000, it's like, well, which
ones make the most sense for mybrand?
(09:00):
You know, that's why you cometo a company like us who says,
hey, here's the half a dozenthat really make the most sense
for you.
So that's a huge part of it, Iwould say.
But then leveraging, like, asmany tools as possible, like we
have certain competitiveintelligence tools where we can
say, okay, you know you're abrand that's in the food
subscription space, here's whatall the rest of your brands in
your space are doing.
And here's some shows thatthey're buying that you know you
(09:22):
probably can't get on because alot of times podcasts like to
be exclusive by categories.
I mean, if they work with youknow one wine subscription brand
, they won't also work with you.
But here's a bunch of othershows that you know look similar
to that show that might makesense for you.
So you know, if you don't havethe luxury of having those tools
, it is just more about kind oflooking into like Apple Podcasts
and saying, okay, you know, Ireally think the true crime
(09:43):
listener is my customer, likethat sort of female 30s to 50s
type of person feels like mycustomer.
So just kind of go through theApple podcast charts and look up
and it's surprisingly easy tosort of track down the context
of some shows and figure out ifthey're a good show for you.
So yeah, that's how I wouldanswer that.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So all this talk about wine?
I do love wine, but it remindsme of the Dilbert cartoon.
I don't know if you ever saw it, but I think it was.
Dilbert came in looking for anew job.
So he went into HR and said I'mlooking for a new job and they
said well, what do you think youwant to do?
And so I think it wasengineering.
Well then you have to liketriple the folds of your brain
(10:24):
or something like that, and theygo through it and they get to
marketing and he goes oh yeah,that's fine, that's just liquor
and guessing.
So now we're talking about winewe're talking about finding the
right podcast.
I'm like there's a little bitof that.
That's why this is imperfectmarketing, so that's always good
.
So what kind of brands do youwork with If a company that's
(10:46):
listening or watching isinterested in getting started
with podcast advertising?
You know you're working withphysical goods to an extent.
Are you working withservice-based businesses too?
Or, like, who's the idealcustomer for your company or for
podcast advertising in youropinion?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, I mean I would say we have a little tagline on
our website that says, likewe're not search, we're not
social, we're not TV, we'reeverything else.
So, like once, brands have sortof used up what we call like
the typical model marketingchannels, excuse me.
So, like you know, you're kindof starting to see some
diminishing returns in meta.
Or you know search is gettingmore competitive or all the
things that you know are sort ofhappening generally in
(11:26):
marketing.
That's when you're sort of likeall right, we got to start.
You know some new channel.
That's typically where, likeit's ideal to kind of hit, you
know, test podcasts and see ifyou can scale that channel the
way you have other channels.
But from a type of businessstandpoint we're usually I don't
know if I want to give like anexact revenue range- but,
somebody who's kind of built,you know you have a solid
(11:47):
foundation of a business.
At that point I will say, youknow you mentioned before
service businesses.
Those can work.
Like we work with a businessthat's like connected with
dieticians, we work with blindscompanies, so like that are more
service based businesses.
So those can certainly work inpodcasts as well.
I will say, the thing that doestend to work best, no matter
where you're in e-commerce or amore service based business, is
(12:10):
something that's more of aconsidered purchase.
So, like you know, if you're a$15 wallet, like podcasts might
not be the best channel for you,if you know you have at least
like $100 average order value,but that's usually what tends to
work best.
So something that's a littlebit more of a considered
purchase, because usuallypodcasts are people who are, you
know, a little more affluent, alittle more educated than like
the average person, and they'reusually going to somewhere to
(12:33):
learn right.
So you're kind of catching themat like an interesting mental
moment when you can reach them.
So so the ideal brand would besomebody a little bit more of a
considered purchase and somebodythat you know again could be
e-com, could be lead generation,but just make sure it's not
that you know $10, $15 item.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Is the considered purchase because?
Is podcast advertising moreexpensive on average?
No, not necessarily In some ofthose other channels you were
talking about.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
No, not necessarily.
I was going to say the.
You know the CPM kind of varies.
It could be as low as like a$10 CPM and as high as like a
$30 CPM, depending on the show.
So you know I don't work day today in like meta advertising and
things like that, but brandshave told us that that's pretty
standard these days in thosechannels.
So it's not necessarily moreexpensive but you get a really,
you know, significant amount ofspace to advertise about your
brand.
(13:21):
So technically speaking, youget like a 60 second ad and that
more like host read style ofadvertising.
But you know most hosts thesedays go over 60 seconds.
So it could.
You know we had a nine minutead read the other day from hosts
.
So sometimes I'll go on and onabout a brand, but yeah, I mean
most of them are averaging likebetween 90 seconds and two and a
half minutes.
So you know, if you're a brandthat needs a little bit more
selling space to communicateyour value proposition podcasts
(13:43):
are really good at that versus,you know, social or other
channels where you're kind oflimited from an ad space
standpoint.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yes, we hosts, we love to talk, and if you win us
over with stuff, you know it's,we're gonna.
We're gonna share free stuff.
Because that's part of what wedo to add value to our audience,
hopefully on a regular basis.
So very cool, very interesting.
So if someone wanted to getstarted with podcast advertising
(14:10):
, how do you recommend that theyget started?
I mean, some people are goingto want to call you guys and
we'll have your contactinformation in the show notes
and description for people thatwant to work with you, because
you do have those advanced tools, right, you do have that
competitive intelligence.
So if you're looking for themore sophisticated buys,
definitely, definitely reach out.
If they're scared about budget,right, do they still reach out?
(14:33):
Do or do you recommend thatthey start on their own and then
reach out once they're, like,really successful?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, I mean I would say we're, you know, more
flexible than most companies inthe space from a budget
standpoint.
So yeah, I'm always happy tohave a conversation and see if
it makes sense.
But you know, if you just don'tthink it's appropriate to bring
in a company like us, then weusually recommend testing like
anywhere between like eight toten shows.
And you want to do it across atleast like two to three
categories.
Because you know you'd beshocked how many times like a
(15:03):
company comes to us and it's abeauty brand and they're like I
only want beauty podcast, that'slike all I want to do.
And then we'll be like, yeah,let's try like some true crime
shows Like you know, these, youknow half a dozen shows do
really well for other brands.
They should do well for you too.
And you know, hit your CPA goal, roas goal, whatever your
metric is.
And you'd be shocked how oftenlike the category you're in
isn't necessarily the bestcategory to advertise in in that
podcast channel.
So, yeah, you want to test.
(15:25):
You know it's crowded, oh, andthat for sure as well.
And even, like in the beautyexample they're maybe those
people are really knowledgeableon beauty and so that they know
their beauty products so theydon't need to be advertised
about it, you know.
So, anyways, you want like twoto three categories.
Like you know, a news, a coupleof news shows, a couple of true
crime shows, a couple of youknow, maybe pop culture shows
about, like Love Island or theBachelor or whatever it is.
(15:46):
So, anyways, you want to test afew different categories
because you know you'd be reallysurprised how often the
category you don't think isgoing to work well is the one
that actually performs the best.
So, yeah, that'd be myrecommendation.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Very cool.
So you got to diversify alittle bit.
I think this is fantastic.
So if a company is looking toget started and if you want that
competitive edge to reallyunderstand where you're going,
you definitely want to take alook at incremental media,
especially because you guys haveother tools at your disposal.
Right so we talked aboutinserts.
(16:17):
Right, but you guys also doshared mail, do some other
things too.
Right so we talked aboutinserts, right, but you guys
also do shared mail.
You do some other things too,right, yeah, mail newsletters.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
We have kind of I always describe it as like two
sides to our business.
So there's the more traditionalchannels, so that's like
package inserts.
Shared mail is a huge part ofour business.
So that's like money mailer,valpak clip if you ever got any
of those through home, so it's,you know, shared mail.
Right, it's sharing the cost ofsending mail to a home
typically does really well for,like, home services companies or
people who are more in the kindof lead generation space debt
(16:46):
companies actually does reallywell with and that there's, like
you know, traditional directmail that still does well.
I mean, you know, every sixmonths now the postal service
keeps increasing their expensiveis to reach people.
So you know who knows how longthat channel will stay strong
for.
But and then, yeah, what we callthe emerging channels is the
other part of our business.
So that podcast, that's emailnewsletters, that's YouTube
creators, that's another sort ofkind of sister channel to
(17:08):
podcasts.
So it's like a 10 minute videoand two minutes in the YouTube
creator kind of stops and does alittle ad read.
So rapidly growing space in ourlittle podcast world.
So so yeah, we've got a bunchof different channels and that's
a big benefit of us as well aslike we can just look at a
brand's business and say, hey,based on you know the audience,
you're targeting the goals youwant to hit, like you're the
best for podcasts or you're thebest for inserts.
(17:30):
So we've sort of really evolvedour business over the past few
years to kind of help almost anykind of brand.
Again, we are pretty selectivein terms of you know we don't do
great at driving to retail asan example.
So like if somebody is tryingto get you know products to sell
in Target, like that's probablynot us.
But if you're selling a productdirect to consumers and it's
got a little more of aconsidered purchase most of the
(17:51):
time, we have a channel thatmakes sense for breath.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
If you're thinking about an effective way to reach
your niche customer.
You don't want to start apodcast yourself because you
don't want to grow that audience.
You want to work withestablished audiences already.
Podcasts are great.
I mean, the hosts have beenspending years and hopefully
hundreds of episodes growingtheir audience and growing their
.
The trust factor with thataudience that it gives you a
(18:22):
little bit of that baked in knowlike and trust factor, right,
that resonates with the audienceand hopefully will end up in
the purchase of your product orservice.
So very cool.
So I think that there's a lot ofthings for people to think
about before they get intopodcast advertising.
So we want to start with yourstrategy what your goals are and
who your audience is.
That's what everything inmarketing starts with, right.
(18:45):
But if you think that thatmight be something that you want
to do, definitely check outIncremental Media.
Again, their information isdown below.
But if not and that's not apath that you want to go and you
just want to, like, see whatthere is out there again, go
check out the Apple podcastcharts, right.
Start seeing what podcasts aretrending on YouTube, because I
(19:05):
think YouTube actually, forpodcasts, is overtaking.
I think it was second last Ihad heard for podcasts platforms
, which is just crazy.
It blows my mind, but it makessense, right?
So there's a lot of differentoptions for you to go down.
Think about who you want toreach, how you want to reach
them, and then take your nextsteps from there.
(19:26):
Before I let you go, eric,though, I do need to ask you the
question that I ask all of myguests.
That is, that this show iscalled Imperfect Marketing.
Marketing is anything but aperfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned along
the way?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I always love that question, by the way, when I
listen to the podcast.
That's fun.
I would say no one really trulyhas all the answers.
So I think so often peopledon't want to go to subject
matter experts so they thinkthey've got it all figured out.
But like I promise you thatnobody does.
Even you know somebody wholives in Breeze podcast.
I'm constantly like, oh my God,that's a new podcast.
I didn't even know that existed.
So you know, just ask questions.
(20:01):
There's nothing, you know.
Don't don't be afraid to sortof wear your heart on your
sleeve, because I promise youthat even the subject matter
experts definitely don't haveall the answers.
So yeah, that's my answer.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I think that that's really good, because nobody has
all the answers.
Nobody has all the answers.
If I got a dollar for everytime somebody says oh, I got
screwed over by an agency, amarketing agency, I'd be rich
and I would be retired and Iwould be living on an island
somewhere.
But I'm not.
Because I don't get a dollarevery time someone says that
(20:32):
Because they're not askingenough questions, right?
Not every solution is the rightone for you, and, again, you
have to ask the right questionsto make sure it's the right fit.
I love organizations like yoursthat are like hey, we're a
little picky because we want tomake sure we're going to deliver
for you, right?
That doesn't help yourreputation either, and so I
(20:53):
think that there's a lot ofvalue there.
But, yes, none of us have allthe answers.
We like to.
We like to pretend we dosometimes, but marketing is
definitely not a perfect science, and so, therefore, things are
different.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Thankfully we've been around.
Actually, our 20th anniversaryis on Friday, so you know 20
years of data and history.
You got a lot of you know,knowledge on what works or what
doesn't work in your channel.
So, yeah, you know, at the endof the day we don't want to
waste our time or a brand'smoney on something we don't
think is going to work.
So I don't think everybodythinks that way of like
companies in our space, but itis something we pride ourselves
(21:25):
on because you know, there'sonly so many hours in the day
and only so many brands we canwork with, so we want to work
with ones that you know we thinkmake the most sense.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
So I love that.
I love that I know a know ahandful of people or companies
that will turn down businessesbecause they can't get the
return that they would belooking for or would be ideal,
and if they can't do that, theydon't want to waste their time,
the client's time or money, youknow, not getting results, and
so I think that that says a lotabout your company and how you
(21:55):
guys work.
So definitely check it out.
Check out all of the ways tocontact incremental media and
Eric down in the show notes orYouTube description, wherever
you're listening or watching.
If you learned something todayand I hope that you did it would
really help me out if you wouldrate or subscribe wherever
you're listening or watching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect science,and that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Corman,and today I am joined by Eric
Smith and we are going to betalking about podcasting, but a
little bit different than wenormally do.
Today, we're going to betalking about getting exposure,
leveraging audiences, throughpodcast advertising.
Welcome, eric.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
(00:48):
Thanks, kendra, excited to behere.
Talk to me about how did youget into podcast advertising?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, kind of by accident.
I mean, I've always been a bigpodcast listener, just from a
consumer standpoint.
So I've been at my currentcompany, incremental Media, for
the past five and a half years.
But before that I spent anotherfive years at a company called
Vox Media, which is a bigdigital publisher.
So they have brands like Vox,voxcom, eater, curbed, sb Nation
.
They merged with New YorkMagazine when I was there, so a
(01:15):
big digital publisher, and theyhad a really rapidly growing
podcast business.
So I sort of, you know, learnedthe foundation of the podcast
world when I was there on moreof the publisher side, and now
here at Increments Media we're amarketing partner who helps
brands diversify their media mixinto channels like podcast
advertising.
So now I'm more on kind of thebuying side as opposed to the
selling side.
So I've kind of seen both areasof my unique podcast world.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Very cool, very interesting.
So why do you guys recommendand represent brands and buy
space on podcast?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Like I said, I joined five and a half years ago now.
I moved into the president andCOO role in January and I came
basically to build out ourpodcast division.
The company had historicallybeen in more kind of traditional
offline channels.
So package inserts is what thecompany was most well known for,
so like when you get a packageand there's printed offers from
other brands inside.
(02:05):
We're actually the largestbuyer of inserts in the country,
so we're huge in that space.
But you know, we had sort ofdecided to kind of want to
evolve the company a little bitand podcasts have a lot of
surprising similarities to someof those more traditional
channels, so even in just theway that they do attribution so
meaning like using a promo codeis a very basic example to sort
of evaluate the individualpodcasts and then how we sort of
(02:27):
, you know, buy the advertisingis on like a podcast by podcast
basis, kind of like an insertprogram, answer program basis.
So there's a lot of uniquesimilarities.
So the founder and CEO of thecompany was just sort of
deciding to kind of diversifytheir offering and we had, you
know, built a relationship anddecided that it made sense for
me to sort of kind of build thepodcast division from the ground
up and you know, technicallyspeaking we have six channels we
(02:49):
specialize in, but podcasts isnow our second biggest and some
of the other channels have likea 15 year head start.
So podcasts have grown reallybig really fast, which is
exciting and, just, you know,challenging for me to kind of
figure out all the you know funand challenges that come along
with that.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Well, and I never thought of the similarity
between the inserts and podcastadvertising, but I can
definitely see it because it'svery niche, right, you're
targeting into a specificaudience that follows a certain
show or falls into a categorythat would be interested in that
show, right, whereas, likecertain things like subscription
(03:26):
boxes, like I get those insertsall the time with.
I like FabFitFun is my bigexample I always get a ton of
those little inserts in there.
I never thought of it that way,but I think that, yeah, there's
, it's a lot of efficiency thatyou can purchase because you're
targeting such a specificaudience and it's an audience
that's already a following.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
We do like to, as a company, kind of be a big fish
in a smaller pond, right?
So there's, you know, hundreds,if not thousands, of companies
that can help you with digitaladvertising, but there's only
really a handful that knowpodcasts or know inserts in the
way that we do.
So, you know, even just from abusiness standpoint, we felt
like it's a place where we couldget big quickly and really make
a name for ourselves.
So, yeah, it kind of fits intoour little incremental media
(04:08):
world as well.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
You know, I work with a lot of small to medium sized
businesses and we're alwaystrying to figure out okay, how
can we get effective andefficient marketing, and there's
only so much that social mediawill bring it right.
You got to go beyond that toget your name out there, and I
know that there was a bunch ofresearch that was done, a lot.
It feels like I should say along time ago I actually don't
(04:30):
even remember how long ago itwas anymore, but it wasn't
yesterday, so I'm going to gowith a long time ago.
That said, audio is more wellretained by, I think, the
listener than almost any othermedium and they have a tendency
to have better recall on the adsand podcasts and on Spotify and
(04:52):
things like that.
Have you guys been finding that, or how are you measuring
success?
Is it just the tracking?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Oh yeah, so it's a good question.
So well, first, we specializemainly in what we call the host
endorsed style, right?
So we're sending physicalproducts most of the time to
hosts and then having them talkabout that experience in the ad
reads.
So a good example is like wework with Naked Wines and they
send wine to hosts and thenhosts say you know, I had a
glass of whatever for my NakedWines box recently.
(05:20):
So if you have a physicalproduct, I think that's kind of
the best way to utilize the fullvalue of podcasts, not to say,
if you don't, you know you can'talso have success there.
But that's really what it's bestfor, I would say, is that kind
of like e-commerce.
Sometimes subscription brands doreally well too.
But from an attributionstandpoint not to get too
technical but basically wepartner with a company called
(05:40):
PodScribe that essentiallybrings the same elements of
digital advertising to podcasts.
So you know they can have apixel within the podcast that
fires and then a pixel on yoursite so they can say hey, you
know, I know person listens tothis podcast, came through and
converted and matches on IPaddress.
So it's very similar toconnected TV advertising, if
anyone's ever tried that before,but it's really the most kind
(06:00):
of sophisticated way to say okay, you know, maybe 100 people use
my promo code, but Podscribepicks up 300 people and it's
like, hey, not everyone's usingthe promo code for a million
different reasons.
They might have gotten hit withyour you know, facebook ad or
Instagram ad afterwards and gota better offer there or you know
, whatever it may be.
So yeah, long-winded way ofsaying like PodScribe is a
really, really helpful tool tosort of bring the elements of
(06:21):
digital advertising that peopleare used to into our more kind
of you know traditional audiooffline world.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I love that and I've always been a fan of host reads
or the host perspective, becausethey don't fast forward that
section right.
I mean when they start playingthe ad right, a pre-recorded ad
or something like that.
A lot of times people areskipping on their phones or
their device and you don't dothat when the host is speaking
and so that natural in read isso much better.
(06:52):
I mean, way back in the daywhen radio was popular, we did
that.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
We talk about it a lot in terms of, like, people
have like a relationship withtheir hosts.
Right, like I've, you know,listened to Bill Simmons for
probably a decade.
At this point, like I feel likeI know him.
You know, do I really I don'tknow, but I feel like I do.
So same type of thing with,probably, you and your listeners
, right, they feel like they'vegotten to know you and, you know
, sometimes people say theythink of podcast hosts as like a
friend.
(07:17):
So you're trying to sort ofcapture on to like, hey, you
trust me, I like wine, check outNaked Wines.
They make a really cool,interesting product.
So you're sort of trying to,you know, just like influencer
advertising or anything else.
But you got to sort of, youknow, if you're a marketer out
there listening, like try andfind the sort of niche that
makes sense for you.
You know, like I have a friendwho makes religious jewelry and
(07:37):
he's found like religiouspodcasts that you know hosts
that are sort of speaking aboutprayer or something personal to
them.
So, anyways, you got to kind ofsort of find your category or
niche that that makes the mostsense.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Well, and again, I mean, there's just so many
niches on in podcasting that youcan find the audience, and not
all of them are huge.
There's a lot of smaller sizedaudiences.
That's good, because that meansyou're not getting the extra
noise from other places, and Ithink that that's so important.
And, yeah, I mean that's why Ido podcasting is to help
(08:10):
accelerate the no like and trustfactor.
Right, they hear me, watch me,listen to me every week.
Right, consistently I'm here.
I would like to think thatwe're building a relationship.
Okay, for those of youlistening and watching, I know
you, I love you, we're good,we're friends, okay, so what
makes this so effective?
(08:30):
Is it just the niche?
Is it the product?
Because you guys are sendingthe product.
What's resonating with yourclients?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I mean I would argue, I guess, a couple of
different things.
One, it helps to go to anexpert, right?
I mean I think you nailed itLike there's now over 4 million
podcasts that exist.
I mean there's only, let's say,like five to 10,000 that are
like actually big enough toadvertise on, that have some
elements of scale to them.
So even just from the five to10,000, it's like, well, which
ones make the most sense for mybrand?
(09:00):
You know, that's why you cometo a company like us who says,
hey, here's the half a dozenthat really make the most sense
for you.
So that's a huge part of it, Iwould say.
But then leveraging, like, asmany tools as possible, like we
have certain competitiveintelligence tools where we can
say, okay, you know you're abrand that's in the food
subscription space, here's whatall the rest of your brands in
your space are doing.
And here's some shows thatthey're buying that you know you
(09:22):
probably can't get on because alot of times podcasts like to
be exclusive by categories.
I mean, if they work with youknow one wine subscription brand
, they won't also work with you.
But here's a bunch of othershows that you know look similar
to that show that might makesense for you.
So you know, if you don't havethe luxury of having those tools
, it is just more about kind oflooking into like Apple Podcasts
and saying, okay, you know, Ireally think the true crime
(09:43):
listener is my customer, likethat sort of female 30s to 50s
type of person feels like mycustomer.
So just kind of go through theApple podcast charts and look up
and it's surprisingly easy tosort of track down the context
of some shows and figure out ifthey're a good show for you.
So yeah, that's how I wouldanswer that.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So all this talk about wine?
I do love wine, but it remindsme of the Dilbert cartoon.
I don't know if you ever saw it, but I think it was.
Dilbert came in looking for anew job.
So he went into HR and said I'mlooking for a new job and they
said well, what do you think youwant to do?
And so I think it wasengineering.
Well then you have to liketriple the folds of your brain
(10:24):
or something like that, and theygo through it and they get to
marketing and he goes oh yeah,that's fine, that's just liquor
and guessing.
So now we're talking about winewe're talking about finding the
right podcast.
I'm like there's a little bitof that.
That's why this is imperfectmarketing, so that's always good
.
So what kind of brands do youwork with If a company that's
(10:46):
listening or watching isinterested in getting started
with podcast advertising?
You know you're working withphysical goods to an extent.
Are you working withservice-based businesses too?
Or, like, who's the idealcustomer for your company or for
podcast advertising in youropinion?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, I mean I would say we have a little tagline on
our website that says, likewe're not search, we're not
social, we're not TV, we'reeverything else.
So, like once, brands have sortof used up what we call like
the typical model marketingchannels, excuse me.
So, like you know, you're kindof starting to see some
diminishing returns in meta.
Or you know search is gettingmore competitive or all the
things that you know are sort ofhappening generally in
(11:26):
marketing.
That's when you're sort of likeall right, we got to start.
You know some new channel.
That's typically where, likeit's ideal to kind of hit, you
know, test podcasts and see ifyou can scale that channel the
way you have other channels.
But from a type of businessstandpoint we're usually I don't
know if I want to give like anexact revenue range- but,
somebody who's kind of built,you know you have a solid
(11:47):
foundation of a business.
At that point I will say, youknow you mentioned before
service businesses.
Those can work.
Like we work with a businessthat's like connected with
dieticians, we work with blindscompanies, so like that are more
service based businesses.
So those can certainly work inpodcasts as well.
I will say, the thing that doestend to work best, no matter
where you're in e-commerce or amore service based business, is
(12:10):
something that's more of aconsidered purchase.
So, like you know, if you're a$15 wallet, like podcasts might
not be the best channel for you,if you know you have at least
like $100 average order value,but that's usually what tends to
work best.
So something that's a littlebit more of a considered
purchase, because usuallypodcasts are people who are, you
know, a little more affluent, alittle more educated than like
the average person, and they'reusually going to somewhere to
(12:33):
learn right.
So you're kind of catching themat like an interesting mental
moment when you can reach them.
So so the ideal brand would besomebody a little bit more of a
considered purchase and somebodythat you know again could be
e-com, could be lead generation,but just make sure it's not
that you know $10, $15 item.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Is the considered purchase because?
Is podcast advertising moreexpensive on average?
No, not necessarily In some ofthose other channels you were
talking about.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
No, not necessarily.
I was going to say the.
You know the CPM kind of varies.
It could be as low as like a$10 CPM and as high as like a
$30 CPM, depending on the show.
So you know I don't work day today in like meta advertising and
things like that, but brandshave told us that that's pretty
standard these days in thosechannels.
So it's not necessarily moreexpensive but you get a really,
you know, significant amount ofspace to advertise about your
brand.
(13:21):
So technically speaking, youget like a 60 second ad and that
more like host read style ofadvertising.
But you know most hosts thesedays go over 60 seconds.
So it could.
You know we had a nine minutead read the other day from hosts
.
So sometimes I'll go on and onabout a brand, but yeah, I mean
most of them are averaging likebetween 90 seconds and two and a
half minutes.
So you know, if you're a brandthat needs a little bit more
selling space to communicateyour value proposition podcasts
(13:43):
are really good at that versus,you know, social or other
channels where you're kind oflimited from an ad space
standpoint.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yes, we hosts, we love to talk, and if you win us
over with stuff, you know it's,we're gonna.
We're gonna share free stuff.
Because that's part of what wedo to add value to our audience,
hopefully on a regular basis.
So very cool, very interesting.
So if someone wanted to getstarted with podcast advertising
(14:10):
, how do you recommend that theyget started?
I mean, some people are goingto want to call you guys and
we'll have your contactinformation in the show notes
and description for people thatwant to work with you, because
you do have those advanced tools, right, you do have that
competitive intelligence.
So if you're looking for themore sophisticated buys,
definitely, definitely reach out.
If they're scared about budget,right, do they still reach out?
(14:33):
Do or do you recommend thatthey start on their own and then
reach out once they're, like,really successful?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, I mean I would say we're, you know, more
flexible than most companies inthe space from a budget
standpoint.
So yeah, I'm always happy tohave a conversation and see if
it makes sense.
But you know, if you just don'tthink it's appropriate to bring
in a company like us, then weusually recommend testing like
anywhere between like eight toten shows.
And you want to do it across atleast like two to three
categories.
Because you know you'd beshocked how many times like a
(15:03):
company comes to us and it's abeauty brand and they're like I
only want beauty podcast, that'slike all I want to do.
And then we'll be like, yeah,let's try like some true crime
shows Like you know, these, youknow half a dozen shows do
really well for other brands.
They should do well for you too.
And you know, hit your CPA goal, roas goal, whatever your
metric is.
And you'd be shocked how oftenlike the category you're in
isn't necessarily the bestcategory to advertise in in that
podcast channel.
So, yeah, you want to test.
(15:25):
You know it's crowded, oh, andthat for sure as well.
And even, like in the beautyexample they're maybe those
people are really knowledgeableon beauty and so that they know
their beauty products so theydon't need to be advertised
about it, you know.
So, anyways, you want like twoto three categories.
Like you know, a news, a coupleof news shows, a couple of true
crime shows, a couple of youknow, maybe pop culture shows
about, like Love Island or theBachelor or whatever it is.
(15:46):
So, anyways, you want to test afew different categories
because you know you'd be reallysurprised how often the
category you don't think isgoing to work well is the one
that actually performs the best.
So, yeah, that'd be myrecommendation.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Very cool.
So you got to diversify alittle bit.
I think this is fantastic.
So if a company is looking toget started and if you want that
competitive edge to reallyunderstand where you're going,
you definitely want to take alook at incremental media,
especially because you guys haveother tools at your disposal.
Right so we talked aboutinserts.
(16:17):
Right, but you guys also doshared mail, do some other
things too.
Right so we talked aboutinserts, right, but you guys
also do shared mail.
You do some other things too,right, yeah, mail newsletters.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
We have kind of I always describe it as like two
sides to our business.
So there's the more traditionalchannels, so that's like
package inserts.
Shared mail is a huge part ofour business.
So that's like money mailer,valpak clip if you ever got any
of those through home, so it's,you know, shared mail.
Right, it's sharing the cost ofsending mail to a home
typically does really well for,like, home services companies or
people who are more in the kindof lead generation space debt
(16:46):
companies actually does reallywell with and that there's, like
you know, traditional directmail that still does well.
I mean, you know, every sixmonths now the postal service
keeps increasing their expensiveis to reach people.
So you know who knows how longthat channel will stay strong
for.
But and then, yeah, what we callthe emerging channels is the
other part of our business.
So that podcast, that's emailnewsletters, that's YouTube
creators, that's another sort ofkind of sister channel to
(17:08):
podcasts.
So it's like a 10 minute videoand two minutes in the YouTube
creator kind of stops and does alittle ad read.
So rapidly growing space in ourlittle podcast world.
So so yeah, we've got a bunchof different channels and that's
a big benefit of us as well aslike we can just look at a
brand's business and say, hey,based on you know the audience,
you're targeting the goals youwant to hit, like you're the
best for podcasts or you're thebest for inserts.
(17:30):
So we've sort of really evolvedour business over the past few
years to kind of help almost anykind of brand.
Again, we are pretty selectivein terms of you know we don't do
great at driving to retail asan example.
So like if somebody is tryingto get you know products to sell
in Target, like that's probablynot us.
But if you're selling a productdirect to consumers and it's
got a little more of aconsidered purchase most of the
(17:51):
time, we have a channel thatmakes sense for breath.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
If you're thinking about an effective way to reach
your niche customer.
You don't want to start apodcast yourself because you
don't want to grow that audience.
You want to work withestablished audiences already.
Podcasts are great.
I mean, the hosts have beenspending years and hopefully
hundreds of episodes growingtheir audience and growing their
.
The trust factor with thataudience that it gives you a
(18:22):
little bit of that baked in knowlike and trust factor, right,
that resonates with the audienceand hopefully will end up in
the purchase of your product orservice.
So very cool.
So I think that there's a lot ofthings for people to think
about before they get intopodcast advertising.
So we want to start with yourstrategy what your goals are and
who your audience is.
That's what everything inmarketing starts with, right.
(18:45):
But if you think that thatmight be something that you want
to do, definitely check outIncremental Media.
Again, their information isdown below.
But if not and that's not apath that you want to go and you
just want to, like, see whatthere is out there again, go
check out the Apple podcastcharts, right.
Start seeing what podcasts aretrending on YouTube, because I
(19:05):
think YouTube actually, forpodcasts, is overtaking.
I think it was second last Ihad heard for podcasts platforms
, which is just crazy.
It blows my mind, but it makessense, right?
So there's a lot of differentoptions for you to go down.
Think about who you want toreach, how you want to reach
them, and then take your nextsteps from there.
(19:26):
Before I let you go, eric,though, I do need to ask you the
question that I ask all of myguests.
That is, that this show iscalled Imperfect Marketing.
Marketing is anything but aperfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned along
the way?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I always love that question, by the way, when I
listen to the podcast.
That's fun.
I would say no one really trulyhas all the answers.
So I think so often peopledon't want to go to subject
matter experts so they thinkthey've got it all figured out.
But like I promise you thatnobody does.
Even you know somebody wholives in Breeze podcast.
I'm constantly like, oh my God,that's a new podcast.
I didn't even know that existed.
So you know, just ask questions.
(20:01):
There's nothing, you know.
Don't don't be afraid to sortof wear your heart on your
sleeve, because I promise youthat even the subject matter
experts definitely don't haveall the answers.
So yeah, that's my answer.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I think that that's really good, because nobody has
all the answers.
Nobody has all the answers.
If I got a dollar for everytime somebody says oh, I got
screwed over by an agency, amarketing agency, I'd be rich
and I would be retired and Iwould be living on an island
somewhere.
But I'm not.
Because I don't get a dollarevery time someone says that
(20:32):
Because they're not askingenough questions, right?
Not every solution is the rightone for you, and, again, you
have to ask the right questionsto make sure it's the right fit.
I love organizations like yoursthat are like hey, we're a
little picky because we want tomake sure we're going to deliver
for you, right?
That doesn't help yourreputation either, and so I
(20:53):
think that there's a lot ofvalue there.
But, yes, none of us have allthe answers.
We like to.
We like to pretend we dosometimes, but marketing is
definitely not a perfect science, and so, therefore, things are
different.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Thankfully we've been around.
Actually, our 20th anniversaryis on Friday, so you know 20
years of data and history.
You got a lot of you know,knowledge on what works or what
doesn't work in your channel.
So, yeah, you know, at the endof the day we don't want to
waste our time or a brand'smoney on something we don't
think is going to work.
So I don't think everybodythinks that way of like
companies in our space, but itis something we pride ourselves
(21:25):
on because you know, there'sonly so many hours in the day
and only so many brands we canwork with, so we want to work
with ones that you know we thinkmake the most sense.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
So I love that.
I love that I know a know ahandful of people or companies
that will turn down businessesbecause they can't get the
return that they would belooking for or would be ideal,
and if they can't do that, theydon't want to waste their time,
the client's time or money, youknow, not getting results, and
so I think that that says a lotabout your company and how you
(21:55):
guys work.
So definitely check it out.
Check out all of the ways tocontact incremental media and
Eric down in the show notes orYouTube description, wherever
you're listening or watching.
If you learned something todayand I hope that you did it would
really help me out if you wouldrate or subscribe wherever
you're listening or watching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
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