August 21, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, host Kendra Corman welcomes Paul Schmidt, a digital marketing strategist and CRM optimization expert from SmartBug Media. Paul brings a unique perspective to the conversation, having transitioned from a career in music to becoming a full-funnel marketer focused on solving complex customer challenges.
Together, they dive into how businesses—especially small to mid-sized ones—can better leverage CRMs and customer marketing to drive real business growth.
Common Pitfalls in CRM Implementation
- Why choosing a CRM based on competitors’ choices can backfire
- The importance of mapping out goals and processes before selecting a tool
- How poor data hygiene sabotages CRM success
- Why your CRM must reflect where your business is today, not 10 years ago
Rethinking the Role of CRM
- The value of a “single source of truth” for customer data
- How a CRM bridges marketing, sales, and customer success
- The cost of fragmented data: lost productivity and missed opportunities
- Why understanding the customer journey post-sale is just as important
Building a Culture Around Customer Marketing
- Why most companies underinvest in current customers and social proof
- How to shift from new-logo obsession to full-lifecycle marketing
- The challenges of measuring customer marketing—and why it’s still worth it
- Real-world strategies to surface and capture meaningful client stories
Creating a Case Study Pipeline
- Treating case studies like a sales process: stages, approvals, publishing
- How five-star reviews can feed your customer story engine
- Managing internal alignment with CSMs and account managers to gather testimonials
- What to do when clients say “no” to using their logo (hint: anonymize it!)
Key Takeaways for Marketers and Business Owners
- Always start with your goals, not the tech
- Use CRM to unify and elevate—not just automate
- Customer success stories are marketing gold, but require intention and process
- Everyone on your team—from sales to support—can contribute to your social proof engine
Bonus Wisdom: Discovering Your Marketing Superpower
Paul shares his biggest lesson learned in marketing: the importance of discovering and developing your "superpower"—whether that’s SEO, CRM implementation, or AI. He encourages professionals at every stage of their career to become known for something specific, then evolve it over time to stay relevant and valuable.
Whether you’re just starting with a CRM or ready to scale your customer marketing efforts, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you make smarter, more strategic decisions.
Are you ready to stop phoning in your CRM and start building a foundation for future growth? Tune in now and learn how!
Connect with Paul Schmidt:
Website: https://www.smartbugmedia.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drumming/
Youtube:
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
Watch here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect scienceand that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Korman,and I'm excited today to be
talking about CRM optimizationand customer marketing strategy
with our guest today, paulWelcome.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Kendra, thanks for having me Looking forward to
today's conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
All right.
So how'd you get into this?
The question I love to askpeople.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, that's a good question.
You know, I actually startedout as a musician and in the
music world and that's reallylike that was my entry into
marketing in general and how Icame to get into marketing.
You know, I really started outthinking.
You know, thinking I reallywant to be in the music world
and the music products world andthat's really where I started
my life and I've been a musicianpretty much my whole life and
(01:13):
really how I got to getting intomarketing is that the music
world is such a creative space.
When you are a musician, you'rein that space.
You get a lot of times playingwith, spending time and thinking
about creativity, but honing myskills as a musician, you're in
that space.
Like you get a lot of timesplaying with, spending time and
thinking about creativity, buthoning my skills as a musician,
you know there was so much timethat you really start to think
about some of the more likequantitative and sort of like as
left brain types of things.
(01:34):
And that's really where, inevolving from going in the music
products world, I just, likethere were, I started to get
into consulting from there.
And in getting into consulting,like you're faced with so many
just different types ofindustries and verticals and
things like that.
And you know, coming from themusic side of things, I realized
that it's not just likecreativity and music, which I
(01:55):
love.
It's not just like that where Ilike to spend all my time and I
love to like think aboutproblem solving and like
learning how different people'slike solve for their customer.
And I think that's really wherehow I evolved from going in the
music and art side of thingsand then going into the
consulting side of things, andin consulting you know, once
you're in that side, likethere's so many different that
(02:16):
can mean a lot of differentthings.
But I really evolved fromworking really at a small SEO
type of shop and evolved towhere and we'll get into this
later to doing full funnel typesof marketing and that's really
what I spend my time doing today.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Okay, that is so interesting.
So I told Paul before I said,by the way, I have my guests
introduce themselves now,because their story is way more
interesting than me readingtheir bio and that is way more
interesting than me reading anybio.
So that is so cool that thatyou made the connection from
something that you're superpassionate on and that it
(02:51):
connected you with somethingthat makes you money and that
you're hopefully passionateabout too.
So, very cool.
Thank you for sharing that.
I had just had a conversationwith a client earlier today and
they were talking about a CRM.
I need a CRM and I was like,okay, why we started getting
into those questions.
But CRMs are important and inmarketing.
(03:14):
So, since you do a lot of CRMoptimization, what are some of
the mistakes that you're seeingwhen people are implementing
CRMs?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
You know, I think that so oftenwhen companies are thinking
about implementing their CRM ora new CRM, is they really like
jump to, starting with thetechnology first and thinking,
oh, all of my competitors, theyuse this CRM, so I got to use
the exact same one.
And there's so many companiesthat fall into that and it's
really like I think the biggestmistake is like, instead of like
(03:48):
jumping and picking like out ofCRM right away, you need to
think about like your ownprocess, your strategy and your
goals.
You know there's many great CRMsystems out there, but it's
like before you just say, oh,I'm going to get this one, it's
like what are you trying tosolve for first?
Because once you can thinkabout what that goal is, then
from there there's you choosethe right tool set based on and
kind of work your way backwards,instead of picking a CRM and
then force fitting your businessstructure and strategy around
(04:09):
that.
So that's what I think.
That's the big mistake first.
Second, I would say, is likedata hygiene.
Big challenge and that I see somany clients have, is they're
using a CRM system and they justwant to like lift, lift and
shift their all of their datainto the new system, and I think
when you're migrating andimplementing a CRM, it's your
(04:30):
opportunity to like think aboutthis.
You have the current, accurate,proper data structure for you
where your business is today,not where it was 10 years ago
when you implemented your lastCRM system.
So I think data hygiene is likeone area is like if you don't
take the time to fix it beforeyou move to your new system or
at least address it to somedegree like, you end up with a
(04:51):
bit of a same sort of headachesthat you had in your last system
.
When you think about wherewe're going from an AI
perspective, it's all about highquality data and if you're like
, ai can solve for a lot of likedata hygiene issues.
But if you have conflictingdata, you know if you have a lot
of data, poor practices fromfrom back in the day, like your
AI and the outputs that you'regetting from AI are going to be
(05:12):
reflected in what that whatyou're getting from that new
system.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, I mean, first off, on the data hygiene it is
so important and it is sooverlooked.
Even I know small businessowners that don't even have a
CRM system, just have an emailmarketing system, and their data
hygiene and their emailmarketing system isn't even good
, right.
I mean, it's just data gets outof control.
I was the Jeep advertisingmanager like a lifetime ago and
(05:38):
we had data problems.
I mean, it's like it doesn'tmatter like how big or how small
you are.
I think everybody has dataissues because you only clean it
up so often, because it is apain in the butt and nobody
wants to do it.
So I love that.
But let's go back to the firstpoint that you talked about and
that was starting with thetechnology, and you said you
should start with goals firstand your processes and your
(05:59):
business, your strategy.
What are some examples orquestions that somebody should
be asking themselves to get someof those answers?
Because I find a lot of peoplestart with the technology
because that's easier.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
It's a good point and there's a lot of great CRM
systems out there.
So it's easy to just say youknow, it's easy to just jump
onto the flashiest new AIpowered system out there.
But I think the questions thatI like to ask is when you think
about you as a business three tosix months from now, what does
success look like?
And I think if you ask thatquestion, it's like well,
ideally this team is managingthese kinds of deals and the new
(06:34):
inquiry comes in, and then thisis how they're going to manage
it, and then from there it'sgoing to go to customer success
or whatever it is.
And so I think you ask thosetypes of questions and you know
my favorite things to do is likeget your marketing team and
your sales team in the same roomand you map this out together.
And I think by doing that, gettogether in person, like
actually in real life.
Like spend the money, gettogether, map it out on a
(06:55):
whiteboard.
Everybody gets to like see, youknow what are the most
important parts of it and whereare the breakdowns happening
today.
That's a key to like doing theproper implementation is really
mapping out.
What does that flow need tolook like from initial inquiry
all the way to like whensomeone's a customer, and you
can even map out during thecustomer success process as well
.
But I think those are some oflike the first questions that I
(07:17):
always ask my clients.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
If you're not looking at what success looks like in
the future and how you want yourprocesses to go, no CRM is
going to fix that.
Right?
If you don't know the answer tothose questions that I don't
think you need a CRM yet, Right?
A lot of people I talk tothey're like oh, I need a CRM.
I'm like why?
What are you going to do withit?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And they don't always have an answer tool like
MailChimp or like a, just a,like an emailing tool or an SMS
(08:04):
tool and like they just havesort of information in stored in
a lot of different places.
And the important point of likehaving a CRM system is that if
you have a single source oftruth for all of your data, for
your customers, for all thetransactions that they have, for
the companies that those thosecustomers work for, for all the
tickets that support ticketsthat they may have as a customer
, if you have all thatinformation in one place, you
(08:27):
just have a much more completelook at the customer.
And if you don't have that, like, your people across your
organization are makingassumptions or they're spending
a lot of time, hours a day,piecing the full picture
together.
And that's why I think it's soimportant to have all that
information ingested by a singlesystem.
So you have that single view ofthe customer you have.
You know the date that theycame in, you know what channel
(08:48):
they came in from, you know allthe conversations that they had
with your sales team, whatproducts that they're using
today and you ideally know whatproducts that they're going to
need three months from now, nextyear.
And having all that informationin one place is like the
ultimate dream and that's whycustomers that take it seriously
.
They're the ones that can havethat complete view of the
customer at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, no, I think that that's really good.
So when people don't have this,they're not investing in their
customer specific marketingright and they're losing out on
money.
How is this affecting theirbottom line?
How are they losing out?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, I mean customers that under invest in
setting up their CRM or underinvest in customer marketing
specifically.
That's another area we spend alot of time in.
You know they're like so oftenthe culture of like how they're
investing in is they're justinvesting in like net new
customer acquisition and net newlogos, and that's really an
important part in most marketingteams.
(09:45):
That's where they do.
A majority of their investmentgoes into net new logo
acquisition.
But you know the organizationsthat that are under investing in
customer marketing like they'remissing out on so much
additional recurring or ongoingrevenue and social proof that
they could be building if theywere to invest in customer
marketing.
And one of the reasons why thatorganizations under way under
(10:06):
invest in customer marketing isbecause it's it's one it's
harder to measure, it's harderto attribute recurring revenue
back to that, that customermarket, those customer marketing
efforts to like there's acultural shift that you have to
make to start investing incustomer marketing and it's like
you know you have to thinkabout like hey, like your
existing clients, that they'repaying you today.
(10:27):
Like you need to think aboutlike how how can you provide
more value to them and how canyou share those stories and key
studies and things like that onyour own channels which, at the
end of the day, like that typeof social proof, is some of the
most impactful type of marketingyou can do.
But I think that's really wheremarketing organizations they
(10:51):
very much under invest on itbecause it's it's a short term
thinking type of thing.
It's like Google ads, like youstick twenty dollars in, you get
one hundred dollars out or youget whatever, you know, whatever
that ratio is, and I think it'sthat type of calculations a lot
harder when it comes tocustomer marketing and I think
it's.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That type of calculation is a lot harder when
it comes to customer marketing.
Okay, so you talked aboutcustomer marketing, about
reaching out to them, to havingthese conversations, retaining
them, and then the social proofstories.
So I love the social proof.
The key thing there is how doyou truly get that?
(11:21):
So I was just actually talkingto somebody last week and they
were saying that they weretrying to get stories out of
people.
They can't get anything out ofanybody and if they do, it's
just bland, middle run of theroad, watered down stuff.
Do you work with people on howto get that?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Again, it takes building a culture from this
stuff.
Do you work with people on howto get that?
Again, it takes building aculture from this and you almost
need to think of building acase study pipeline, like you do
like a deal pipeline or anopportunity pipeline At SmartBug
.
We think about building, likewe want to be launching, you
know, two, three case studies amonth of this type of social
proof, and what it takes is liketalking with the account
managers on an ongoing basis toget to some of those stories
(11:59):
from them Like what was thisthing you guys launched, what
was that campaign?
Like that, you guys launchedthis last quarter and then
thinking about, okay, theylaunched some new project like
this quarter and maybe nextquarter, once the fruit is
starting to bear from, we'restarting to get results from
this.
Then you start to share some ofthose stories and so we think
about it as like building apipeline of case studies,
(12:20):
because we know for the next fewquarters what those are going
to look like.
And I think if you thinkproactively about that, it's
easier to plan.
You're not looking at a blankwhite page.
What are we going to writeabout today?
What's our case study thismonth going to be about.
You're constantly thinkingabout and you're feeling that,
but I think the stories part,it's like you have to have the
marketing team has to have goodrelationships with the customer
or the account managers, thecustomer success managers I
(12:43):
think that's the important partand constantly be spending time
with them, like talking abouttheir customers and learning
about that, and it can't just belike a sort of like a one and
done thing, like they need to bespending time together, like,
put, a recurring monthly meetingor a quarterly meeting with
that CSM so that, like you canjust talk about their customers.
Where are they winning, likewhat are they doing?
(13:05):
Well, and I think that's thoseare some points where you can
start to get some interestingnuggets and it's not just like
the same case study kind ofregurgitated over and over.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I really like that, because if you don't do this
intentionally, it's not going tohappen, and I think people
really forget about that andthey think, oh, I can get that
later, or oh, here's what thisperson said and I'll ask them
for a quote later, and it's likeyou can't ask people, I don't
think, always to fill in theblanks.
(13:34):
You really need to do that forthem after you get that core
information, because people are,I'm going to say, inherently
lazy, but they are right, you'rejust not a priority to them.
So the best way to get what youneed is to get what you need in
a timely manner right, andhaving that pipeline, I think is
(13:55):
really important.
When you're creating thatpipeline, are you like?
Is it just recurring tasks?
Is it just part of expectationsof certain roles?
Is it something that pops up inthe CRM system as a task to
follow up with a client?
How does that work for you guys?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I'll give you a little pro tip on this.
So, in terms of like, buildinga case study pipeline, if you
can connect that with, like,your review building or review
generation campaign, they kindof can tie together.
And so how I think about it islike when a customer gets a win,
that's when you, like, you'vehelped them launch a very
successful campaign.
That's when you ask for thatfive star review.
(14:32):
And if you've gotten that fivestar review, they left it on
whatever channels that areimportant for your audience.
From there, ok, they're the,they're the sort of like your
prospects for case studies,because they've already shown
that, like, they've already toldthem the Internet that that
you're, that you know you dogood work for them.
From there, you can then takeit to the next step and say, hey
, like you know, you've left usa great review from this.
We'd love to feature you as acustomer story.
(14:54):
And then from there, thenthey're sort of like, they're
sort of a prospect in your casestudy pipeline, to then nurture
them to the point where they'relike, yeah, let's do it.
And then, like, ideally, likeat the end of the day, like the
customer will let you use theirlogo and say you know, let you
use their name on your, on yourcase study.
Like that's ideal to have, likethird party logos, that type of
social proof on there.
But you're going to hit thepoints where customers are like
(15:16):
can't use my logo, legal teamsays no, but you can still use
that story, an anonymizedversion of it.
Like you can still like, sharethat type of stuff and it still
does provide a level of value topeople that are maybe that may
consider using you in the future.
And so that's kind of how wethink about.
It is like we need to have,like we need to keep fuel in
this pipeline, regardless oflike what, what the end point is
(15:40):
going to be.
We got to get customer storiesout the door.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And I love that.
I love how starting withreviews, those are people that
are already open to it, right,and them sort of opting in to
maybe answering more questionsis really, really helpful, right
, so that's fantastic.
If somebody is looking to startor elevate because we'll say
that they've been phoning intheir customer marketing, right,
they've been totally phoning itin because their data hygiene
(16:06):
might be a mess or they have thethe wrong tool or it's set up
in an incorrect way.
What are, like, the first threethings that you would recommend
that they do?
Or what are the?
What's the first thing that youwould recommend that they do to
really look at that and getstarted with it?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
What we like literally did was build a
pipeline in our CRM for casestudies.
So, like that's, that's a good,like foundational area is to
like think about it likestructurally.
Okay, what are the stages thatyou need to go through to get to
like to do case studies?
Because it's not just like it'sa sales process on its own to
like convince a customer to likespend 10, 15, 30 minutes with
(16:42):
you doing an interview, writingthe case study them, approving
it multiple levels of approvaland then publishing all that
kind of stuff.
So you need to think like theprocess a little bit.
Like what is that going to looklike for you and your customers
?
But from there, it's like whenyou start working with a new
client, obviously they hired youto make them successful or
solve a problem for them.
And I think like framing itearly on, even during those
(17:03):
first few meetings with likediscovery meetings with a client
when they come on board, islike talking with them, like
look, we want to make you, wewant to make you the most
successful client for us, um,and be able to share your story
one day.
Like that is, we have both, haveyou know, aligned interests in
making that happen you beingvery successful and us sharing
that with the world that youguys are very successful.
And so I think it's like it'ssetting it up, like thinking
(17:25):
about that process, mapping thatout and then like baking it in
very early and setting thoseexpectations with your CSM.
That it's like with your CSM andaccount managers it's not just
about like retention and likekeeping them around.
Like it's that's very that's.
I mean, that's the mostimportant thing is like to keep
paying their bill every month orhowever often you bring in
revenue.
But like that building thatsocial proof is like that should
(17:46):
be an expectation for your CSMsas well.
And you're, at the end of theday, it's like you're going to
see your CSMs who are verysuccessful, who retain their
clients, who generate five starreviews, who build case studies
for their clients, and those arethe ones are like you know
they're, they're going to berewarded the most handsomely and
and so that's kind of like howyou think about it is like
setting that building that intolike the CSMs, like job
(18:09):
description is that it's notjust about like kicking clients
off and like like get justserving them the products like
you need to like think about how, at the end of the day, like
they're going to be involved inlike a social proof building to
some degree.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I really like that because people want to see that
social proof.
You can't build your businesswithout it right.
So I mean, you're not going tobe able to scale your revenue or
your business or any of thatwithout that social proof piece,
and I think that that's reallyimportant and I think it's
regularly overlooked because itcan be a pain in the butt to try
(18:43):
and get insecure and you knowwhat I mean and build that
pipeline, especially when you'regetting started, if you don't
have a pipeline right, and so Ithink that that's really
important.
This has been awesome.
I love it.
I love CRM.
I love talking about CRMs.
I love talking about processesand data management probably
because I can't build a flowchart to save my life, but I
(19:03):
love it because it's somethingthat I need and can leverage
when I'm using data right tocreate campaigns and to reach
out and even, you know, insegment lists and, to you know,
for email and all of the goodthings that come from having
good quality data.
And that always starts with aCRM and, again, it starts with
(19:25):
your goals, not the technology,which I love, the tool, I should
say, which I love.
That you mentioned that BeforeI let you go, though I do have
to ask you the question I askall of my guests, and that is
the show is called ImperfectMarketing.
Marketing is anything but aperfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned along
the way?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You know, the biggest lesson that I've learned along
the way is like, especiallyearly in my career was sort of
finding what my marketingsuperpower was right away and I
didn't know like this was soimportant.
But as I kind of reflect in thelast like 15 years and doing
marketing, it's like you need tobe thinking about whatever
stage of your career you are islike what is your superpower
that people are going to go toto you for that, to go to to you
(20:05):
for that?
Early on in my career I startedin search marketing, doing SEO
and PPC and like really honingthose skills, understanding you
know the things that worked welland didn't for clients,
understanding how search searchengines worked, everything like
that.
And when I went to my next roleI moved over to HubSpot, the P.
You know I was like the SEO guy.
(20:25):
I was like the person that waslike people had a customer that
had an SEO issue.
They'd hit me up and they'dbring me onto their customer
calls and that was like figuringout what that superpower was
early like helped me then frameout how I could then maybe lead
trainings internally for that bethe SME when sales needed
somebody that could speak tothat sort of thing that has
evolved over time too.
(20:46):
It's like I'm not I'm not like15 years later or like still the
SEO guy, like I can stillanswer SEO and things like that,
but it's like I'm constantlythinking about like what thing
can I really like drill in deepand be that subject matter
experts?
When people like come to have atraining need or a sales need or
service need or anything likethat, it's like they know who
(21:06):
they can go to and trust.
And that has evolved over timestarted at search, then it
became, you know, paul's theHubSpot expert for this thing
and it's now it's continuing toevolve with all the AI stuff
that's happening and I'm tryingto really think about how can I
specialize in learning agenticAI, so when people have clients
that are interested in that area, like they have someone they
can go to.
(21:26):
So I think it's, you know,learning, learning along the way
and continuing to like hone inon what those, what your
superpower is at any one time.
I think is just ups your marketvalue and it's something that
you know.
I would encourage a marketer atany stage of their career to be
thinking about what theirsuperpower is.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Well, I think all business owners in general
should think about what theirsuperpower is.
I mean, what you're talkingabout there is what you're going
to represent and stand for, atleast for a period of time.
Again, like you said, it canevolve over time, which is
totally fine, and actually itprobably should, right?
I haven't seen a switchboardoperator in a really long time,
but it was a really importantservice back in the day.
(22:06):
So, again, when you're lookingat what your superpower is, I
think it's even more than justwhat your marketing superpower
is.
What's your business, what'syour specialty, no matter where
you are?
And if that's your businessBecause that's what you stand
for that's where people start tocall you, that's where you
start to getting the speakinggigs and being a guest on
podcasts and really building areputation for yourself in that
(22:31):
area and specialty, which Ithink that just can carry on so
much and go so big that that isa fantastic lesson learned.
So I think everybody can takesomething from that, starting
with their personal superpowerall the way up to, like, their
business or corporate.
How are you making a difference, right?
What are you?
What do you know?
What is it that you're reallygood at and what's that
(22:54):
difference that you can make?
Because I really do think thatthat's what's going to
differentiate you your, yourpersonal brand or your company's
brand overall, right, andthat's what we want to do is
stand out in the marketplace andbe remembered for something.
Stand out in the marketplaceand be remembered for something
ideally right.
So that is so awesome.
(23:16):
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
For those of you listening orwatching and you want to connect
with Paul and SmartBug Media,we have his information in the
show notes or the videodescription down below, so be
sure to check that out.
Definitely connect with him,because he's got a lot of value
to share.
As you've seen.
If you've learned anythingtoday and got some value out of
today's podcast, it would reallyhelp us out if you would rate
(23:38):
and subscribe wherever you'relistening or watching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman .
If you're a coach, consultantor marketer, you know marketing
is far from a perfect scienceand that's why this show is
called Imperfect Marketing.
Join me and my guests as weexplore how to grow your
business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned
along the way.
Hello and welcome back toanother episode of Imperfect
(00:27):
Marketing.
I'm your host, Kendra Korman,and I'm excited today to be
talking about CRM optimizationand customer marketing strategy
with our guest today, paulWelcome.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Kendra, thanks for having me Looking forward to
today's conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
All right.
So how'd you get into this?
The question I love to askpeople.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, that's a good question.
You know, I actually startedout as a musician and in the
music world and that's reallylike that was my entry into
marketing in general and how Icame to get into marketing.
You know, I really started outthinking.
You know, thinking I reallywant to be in the music world
and the music products world andthat's really where I started
my life and I've been a musicianpretty much my whole life and
(01:13):
really how I got to getting intomarketing is that the music
world is such a creative space.
When you are a musician, you'rein that space.
You get a lot of times playingwith, spending time and thinking
about creativity, but honing myskills as a musician, you're in
that space.
Like you get a lot of timesplaying with, spending time and
thinking about creativity, buthoning my skills as a musician,
you know there was so much timethat you really start to think
about some of the more likequantitative and sort of like as
left brain types of things.
(01:34):
And that's really where, inevolving from going in the music
products world, I just, likethere were, I started to get
into consulting from there.
And in getting into consulting,like you're faced with so many
just different types ofindustries and verticals and
things like that.
And you know, coming from themusic side of things, I realized
that it's not just likecreativity and music, which I
(01:55):
love.
It's not just like that where Ilike to spend all my time and I
love to like think aboutproblem solving and like
learning how different people'slike solve for their customer.
And I think that's really wherehow I evolved from going in the
music and art side of thingsand then going into the
consulting side of things, andin consulting you know, once
you're in that side, likethere's so many different that
(02:16):
can mean a lot of differentthings.
But I really evolved fromworking really at a small SEO
type of shop and evolved towhere and we'll get into this
later to doing full funnel typesof marketing and that's really
what I spend my time doing today.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Okay, that is so interesting.
So I told Paul before I said,by the way, I have my guests
introduce themselves now,because their story is way more
interesting than me readingtheir bio and that is way more
interesting than me reading anybio.
So that is so cool that thatyou made the connection from
something that you're superpassionate on and that it
(02:51):
connected you with somethingthat makes you money and that
you're hopefully passionateabout too.
So, very cool.
Thank you for sharing that.
I had just had a conversationwith a client earlier today and
they were talking about a CRM.
I need a CRM and I was like,okay, why we started getting
into those questions.
But CRMs are important and inmarketing.
(03:14):
So, since you do a lot of CRMoptimization, what are some of
the mistakes that you're seeingwhen people are implementing
CRMs?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
You know, I think that so oftenwhen companies are thinking
about implementing their CRM ora new CRM, is they really like
jump to, starting with thetechnology first and thinking,
oh, all of my competitors, theyuse this CRM, so I got to use
the exact same one.
And there's so many companiesthat fall into that and it's
really like I think the biggestmistake is like, instead of like
(03:48):
jumping and picking like out ofCRM right away, you need to
think about like your ownprocess, your strategy and your
goals.
You know there's many great CRMsystems out there, but it's
like before you just say, oh,I'm going to get this one, it's
like what are you trying tosolve for first?
Because once you can thinkabout what that goal is, then
from there there's you choosethe right tool set based on and
kind of work your way backwards,instead of picking a CRM and
then force fitting your businessstructure and strategy around
(04:09):
that.
So that's what I think.
That's the big mistake first.
Second, I would say, is likedata hygiene.
Big challenge and that I see somany clients have, is they're
using a CRM system and they justwant to like lift, lift and
shift their all of their datainto the new system, and I think
when you're migrating andimplementing a CRM, it's your
(04:30):
opportunity to like think aboutthis.
You have the current, accurate,proper data structure for you
where your business is today,not where it was 10 years ago
when you implemented your lastCRM system.
So I think data hygiene is likeone area is like if you don't
take the time to fix it beforeyou move to your new system or
at least address it to somedegree like, you end up with a
(04:51):
bit of a same sort of headachesthat you had in your last system
.
When you think about wherewe're going from an AI
perspective, it's all about highquality data and if you're like
, ai can solve for a lot of likedata hygiene issues.
But if you have conflictingdata, you know if you have a lot
of data, poor practices fromfrom back in the day, like your
AI and the outputs that you'regetting from AI are going to be
(05:12):
reflected in what that whatyou're getting from that new
system.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, I mean, first off, on the data hygiene it is
so important and it is sooverlooked.
Even I know small businessowners that don't even have a
CRM system, just have an emailmarketing system, and their data
hygiene and their emailmarketing system isn't even good
, right.
I mean, it's just data gets outof control.
I was the Jeep advertisingmanager like a lifetime ago and
(05:38):
we had data problems.
I mean, it's like it doesn'tmatter like how big or how small
you are.
I think everybody has dataissues because you only clean it
up so often, because it is apain in the butt and nobody
wants to do it.
So I love that.
But let's go back to the firstpoint that you talked about and
that was starting with thetechnology, and you said you
should start with goals firstand your processes and your
(05:59):
business, your strategy.
What are some examples orquestions that somebody should
be asking themselves to get someof those answers?
Because I find a lot of peoplestart with the technology
because that's easier.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
It's a good point and there's a lot of great CRM
systems out there.
So it's easy to just say youknow, it's easy to just jump
onto the flashiest new AIpowered system out there.
But I think the questions thatI like to ask is when you think
about you as a business three tosix months from now, what does
success look like?
And I think if you ask thatquestion, it's like well,
ideally this team is managingthese kinds of deals and the new
(06:34):
inquiry comes in, and then thisis how they're going to manage
it, and then from there it'sgoing to go to customer success
or whatever it is.
And so I think you ask thosetypes of questions and you know
my favorite things to do is likeget your marketing team and
your sales team in the same roomand you map this out together.
And I think by doing that, gettogether in person, like
actually in real life.
Like spend the money, gettogether, map it out on a
(06:55):
whiteboard.
Everybody gets to like see, youknow what are the most
important parts of it and whereare the breakdowns happening
today.
That's a key to like doing theproper implementation is really
mapping out.
What does that flow need tolook like from initial inquiry
all the way to like whensomeone's a customer, and you
can even map out during thecustomer success process as well
.
But I think those are some oflike the first questions that I
(07:17):
always ask my clients.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
If you're not looking at what success looks like in
the future and how you want yourprocesses to go, no CRM is
going to fix that.
Right?
If you don't know the answer tothose questions that I don't
think you need a CRM yet, Right?
A lot of people I talk tothey're like oh, I need a CRM.
I'm like why?
What are you going to do withit?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And they don't always have an answer tool like
MailChimp or like a, just a,like an emailing tool or an SMS
(08:04):
tool and like they just havesort of information in stored in
a lot of different places.
And the important point of likehaving a CRM system is that if
you have a single source oftruth for all of your data, for
your customers, for all thetransactions that they have, for
the companies that those thosecustomers work for, for all the
tickets that support ticketsthat they may have as a customer
, if you have all thatinformation in one place, you
(08:27):
just have a much more completelook at the customer.
And if you don't have that, like, your people across your
organization are makingassumptions or they're spending
a lot of time, hours a day,piecing the full picture
together.
And that's why I think it's soimportant to have all that
information ingested by a singlesystem.
So you have that single view ofthe customer you have.
You know the date that theycame in, you know what channel
(08:48):
they came in from, you know allthe conversations that they had
with your sales team, whatproducts that they're using
today and you ideally know whatproducts that they're going to
need three months from now, nextyear.
And having all that informationin one place is like the
ultimate dream and that's whycustomers that take it seriously
.
They're the ones that can havethat complete view of the
customer at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, no, I think that that's really good.
So when people don't have this,they're not investing in their
customer specific marketingright and they're losing out on
money.
How is this affecting theirbottom line?
How are they losing out?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, I mean customers that under invest in
setting up their CRM or underinvest in customer marketing
specifically.
That's another area we spend alot of time in.
You know they're like so oftenthe culture of like how they're
investing in is they're justinvesting in like net new
customer acquisition and net newlogos, and that's really an
important part in most marketingteams.
(09:45):
That's where they do.
A majority of their investmentgoes into net new logo
acquisition.
But you know the organizationsthat that are under investing in
customer marketing like they'remissing out on so much
additional recurring or ongoingrevenue and social proof that
they could be building if theywere to invest in customer
marketing.
And one of the reasons why thatorganizations under way under
(10:06):
invest in customer marketing isbecause it's it's one it's
harder to measure, it's harderto attribute recurring revenue
back to that, that customermarket, those customer marketing
efforts to like there's acultural shift that you have to
make to start investing incustomer marketing and it's like
you know you have to thinkabout like hey, like your
existing clients, that they'repaying you today.
(10:27):
Like you need to think aboutlike how how can you provide
more value to them and how canyou share those stories and key
studies and things like that onyour own channels which, at the
end of the day, like that typeof social proof, is some of the
most impactful type of marketingyou can do.
But I think that's really wheremarketing organizations they
(10:51):
very much under invest on itbecause it's it's a short term
thinking type of thing.
It's like Google ads, like youstick twenty dollars in, you get
one hundred dollars out or youget whatever, you know, whatever
that ratio is, and I think it'sthat type of calculations a lot
harder when it comes tocustomer marketing and I think
it's.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That type of calculation is a lot harder when
it comes to customer marketing.
Okay, so you talked aboutcustomer marketing, about
reaching out to them, to havingthese conversations, retaining
them, and then the social proofstories.
So I love the social proof.
The key thing there is how doyou truly get that?
(11:21):
So I was just actually talkingto somebody last week and they
were saying that they weretrying to get stories out of
people.
They can't get anything out ofanybody and if they do, it's
just bland, middle run of theroad, watered down stuff.
Do you work with people on howto get that?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Again, it takes building a culture from this
stuff.
Do you work with people on howto get that?
Again, it takes building aculture from this and you almost
need to think of building acase study pipeline, like you do
like a deal pipeline or anopportunity pipeline At SmartBug
.
We think about building, likewe want to be launching, you
know, two, three case studies amonth of this type of social
proof, and what it takes is liketalking with the account
managers on an ongoing basis toget to some of those stories
(11:59):
from them Like what was thisthing you guys launched, what
was that campaign?
Like that, you guys launchedthis last quarter and then
thinking about, okay, theylaunched some new project like
this quarter and maybe nextquarter, once the fruit is
starting to bear from, we'restarting to get results from
this.
Then you start to share some ofthose stories and so we think
about it as like building apipeline of case studies,
(12:20):
because we know for the next fewquarters what those are going
to look like.
And I think if you thinkproactively about that, it's
easier to plan.
You're not looking at a blankwhite page.
What are we going to writeabout today?
What's our case study thismonth going to be about.
You're constantly thinkingabout and you're feeling that,
but I think the stories part,it's like you have to have the
marketing team has to have goodrelationships with the customer
or the account managers, thecustomer success managers I
(12:43):
think that's the important partand constantly be spending time
with them, like talking abouttheir customers and learning
about that, and it can't just belike a sort of like a one and
done thing, like they need to bespending time together, like,
put, a recurring monthly meetingor a quarterly meeting with
that CSM so that, like you canjust talk about their customers.
Where are they winning, likewhat are they doing?
(13:05):
Well, and I think that's thoseare some points where you can
start to get some interestingnuggets and it's not just like
the same case study kind ofregurgitated over and over.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I really like that, because if you don't do this
intentionally, it's not going tohappen, and I think people
really forget about that andthey think, oh, I can get that
later, or oh, here's what thisperson said and I'll ask them
for a quote later, and it's likeyou can't ask people, I don't
think, always to fill in theblanks.
(13:34):
You really need to do that forthem after you get that core
information, because people are,I'm going to say, inherently
lazy, but they are right, you'rejust not a priority to them.
So the best way to get what youneed is to get what you need in
a timely manner right, andhaving that pipeline, I think is
(13:55):
really important.
When you're creating thatpipeline, are you like?
Is it just recurring tasks?
Is it just part of expectationsof certain roles?
Is it something that pops up inthe CRM system as a task to
follow up with a client?
How does that work for you guys?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I'll give you a little pro tip on this.
So, in terms of like, buildinga case study pipeline, if you
can connect that with, like,your review building or review
generation campaign, they kindof can tie together.
And so how I think about it islike when a customer gets a win,
that's when you, like, you'vehelped them launch a very
successful campaign.
That's when you ask for thatfive star review.
(14:32):
And if you've gotten that fivestar review, they left it on
whatever channels that areimportant for your audience.
From there, ok, they're the,they're the sort of like your
prospects for case studies,because they've already shown
that, like, they've already toldthem the Internet that that
you're, that you know you dogood work for them.
From there, you can then takeit to the next step and say, hey
, like you know, you've left usa great review from this.
We'd love to feature you as acustomer story.
(14:54):
And then from there, thenthey're sort of like, they're
sort of a prospect in your casestudy pipeline, to then nurture
them to the point where they'relike, yeah, let's do it.
And then, like, ideally, likeat the end of the day, like the
customer will let you use theirlogo and say you know, let you
use their name on your, on yourcase study.
Like that's ideal to have, likethird party logos, that type of
social proof on there.
But you're going to hit thepoints where customers are like
(15:16):
can't use my logo, legal teamsays no, but you can still use
that story, an anonymizedversion of it.
Like you can still like, sharethat type of stuff and it still
does provide a level of value topeople that are maybe that may
consider using you in the future.
And so that's kind of how wethink about.
It is like we need to have,like we need to keep fuel in
this pipeline, regardless oflike what, what the end point is
(15:40):
going to be.
We got to get customer storiesout the door.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And I love that.
I love how starting withreviews, those are people that
are already open to it, right,and them sort of opting in to
maybe answering more questionsis really, really helpful, right
, so that's fantastic.
If somebody is looking to startor elevate because we'll say
that they've been phoning intheir customer marketing, right,
they've been totally phoning itin because their data hygiene
(16:06):
might be a mess or they have thethe wrong tool or it's set up
in an incorrect way.
What are, like, the first threethings that you would recommend
that they do?
Or what are the?
What's the first thing that youwould recommend that they do to
really look at that and getstarted with it?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
What we like literally did was build a
pipeline in our CRM for casestudies.
So, like that's, that's a good,like foundational area is to
like think about it likestructurally.
Okay, what are the stages thatyou need to go through to get to
like to do case studies?
Because it's not just like it'sa sales process on its own to
like convince a customer to likespend 10, 15, 30 minutes with
(16:42):
you doing an interview, writingthe case study them, approving
it multiple levels of approvaland then publishing all that
kind of stuff.
So you need to think like theprocess a little bit.
Like what is that going to looklike for you and your customers
?
But from there, it's like whenyou start working with a new
client, obviously they hired youto make them successful or
solve a problem for them.
And I think like framing itearly on, even during those
(17:03):
first few meetings with likediscovery meetings with a client
when they come on board, islike talking with them, like
look, we want to make you, wewant to make you the most
successful client for us, um,and be able to share your story
one day.
Like that is, we have both, haveyou know, aligned interests in
making that happen you beingvery successful and us sharing
that with the world that youguys are very successful.
And so I think it's like it'ssetting it up, like thinking
(17:25):
about that process, mapping thatout and then like baking it in
very early and setting thoseexpectations with your CSM.
That it's like with your CSM andaccount managers it's not just
about like retention and likekeeping them around.
Like it's that's very that's.
I mean, that's the mostimportant thing is like to keep
paying their bill every month orhowever often you bring in
revenue.
But like that building thatsocial proof is like that should
(17:46):
be an expectation for your CSMsas well.
And you're, at the end of theday, it's like you're going to
see your CSMs who are verysuccessful, who retain their
clients, who generate five starreviews, who build case studies
for their clients, and those arethe ones are like you know
they're, they're going to berewarded the most handsomely and
and so that's kind of like howyou think about it is like
setting that building that intolike the CSMs, like job
(18:09):
description is that it's notjust about like kicking clients
off and like like get justserving them the products like
you need to like think about how, at the end of the day, like
they're going to be involved inlike a social proof building to
some degree.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I really like that because people want to see that
social proof.
You can't build your businesswithout it right.
So I mean, you're not going tobe able to scale your revenue or
your business or any of thatwithout that social proof piece,
and I think that that's reallyimportant and I think it's
regularly overlooked because itcan be a pain in the butt to try
(18:43):
and get insecure and you knowwhat I mean and build that
pipeline, especially when you'regetting started, if you don't
have a pipeline right, and so Ithink that that's really
important.
This has been awesome.
I love it.
I love CRM.
I love talking about CRMs.
I love talking about processesand data management probably
because I can't build a flowchart to save my life, but I
(19:03):
love it because it's somethingthat I need and can leverage
when I'm using data right tocreate campaigns and to reach
out and even, you know, insegment lists and, to you know,
for email and all of the goodthings that come from having
good quality data.
And that always starts with aCRM and, again, it starts with
(19:25):
your goals, not the technology,which I love, the tool, I should
say, which I love.
That you mentioned that BeforeI let you go, though I do have
to ask you the question I askall of my guests, and that is
the show is called ImperfectMarketing.
Marketing is anything but aperfect science.
What has been your biggestmarketing lesson learned along
the way?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You know, the biggest lesson that I've learned along
the way is like, especiallyearly in my career was sort of
finding what my marketingsuperpower was right away and I
didn't know like this was soimportant.
But as I kind of reflect in thelast like 15 years and doing
marketing, it's like you need tobe thinking about whatever
stage of your career you are islike what is your superpower
that people are going to go toto you for that, to go to to you
(20:05):
for that?
Early on in my career I startedin search marketing, doing SEO
and PPC and like really honingthose skills, understanding you
know the things that worked welland didn't for clients,
understanding how search searchengines worked, everything like
that.
And when I went to my next roleI moved over to HubSpot, the P.
You know I was like the SEO guy.
(20:25):
I was like the person that waslike people had a customer that
had an SEO issue.
They'd hit me up and they'dbring me onto their customer
calls and that was like figuringout what that superpower was
early like helped me then frameout how I could then maybe lead
trainings internally for that bethe SME when sales needed
somebody that could speak tothat sort of thing that has
evolved over time too.
(20:46):
It's like I'm not I'm not like15 years later or like still the
SEO guy, like I can stillanswer SEO and things like that,
but it's like I'm constantlythinking about like what thing
can I really like drill in deepand be that subject matter
experts?
When people like come to have atraining need or a sales need or
service need or anything likethat, it's like they know who
(21:06):
they can go to and trust.
And that has evolved over timestarted at search, then it
became, you know, paul's theHubSpot expert for this thing
and it's now it's continuing toevolve with all the AI stuff
that's happening and I'm tryingto really think about how can I
specialize in learning agenticAI, so when people have clients
that are interested in that area, like they have someone they
can go to.
(21:26):
So I think it's, you know,learning, learning along the way
and continuing to like hone inon what those, what your
superpower is at any one time.
I think is just ups your marketvalue and it's something that
you know.
I would encourage a marketer atany stage of their career to be
thinking about what theirsuperpower is.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Well, I think all business owners in general
should think about what theirsuperpower is.
I mean, what you're talkingabout there is what you're going
to represent and stand for, atleast for a period of time.
Again, like you said, it canevolve over time, which is
totally fine, and actually itprobably should, right?
I haven't seen a switchboardoperator in a really long time,
but it was a really importantservice back in the day.
(22:06):
So, again, when you're lookingat what your superpower is, I
think it's even more than justwhat your marketing superpower
is.
What's your business, what'syour specialty, no matter where
you are?
And if that's your businessBecause that's what you stand
for that's where people start tocall you, that's where you
start to getting the speakinggigs and being a guest on
podcasts and really building areputation for yourself in that
(22:31):
area and specialty, which Ithink that just can carry on so
much and go so big that that isa fantastic lesson learned.
So I think everybody can takesomething from that, starting
with their personal superpowerall the way up to, like, their
business or corporate.
How are you making a difference, right?
What are you?
What do you know?
What is it that you're reallygood at and what's that
(22:54):
difference that you can make?
Because I really do think thatthat's what's going to
differentiate you your, yourpersonal brand or your company's
brand overall, right, andthat's what we want to do is
stand out in the marketplace andbe remembered for something.
Stand out in the marketplaceand be remembered for something
ideally right.
So that is so awesome.
(23:16):
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
For those of you listening orwatching and you want to connect
with Paul and SmartBug Media,we have his information in the
show notes or the videodescription down below, so be
sure to check that out.
Definitely connect with him,because he's got a lot of value
to share.
As you've seen.
If you've learned anythingtoday and got some value out of
today's podcast, it would reallyhelp us out if you would rate
(23:38):
and subscribe wherever you'relistening or watching.
Until next time, have a greatrest of your day.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.