March 31, 2025 • 46 mins
Shame is often seen as a negative emotion, but what if it has a deeper purpose? Join Laura and Rachel on Impolite Society as they dive into the complexities of shame versus guilt, exploring how this powerful emotion shapes human behavior and social norms. They discuss the biological origins of shame, its role in societal bonding, and the balance between healthy and toxic shame. From caveman instincts to modern social dynamics, this episode challenges the idea that shaming is always bad- and why Bring Back Shame is a common cry heard around the internet.
Sources:
https://medium.com/@sindykirks/bring-back-shame-thats-what-i-am-saying-7ab8ba7aab4c
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10426012/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6143989/
https://health.howstuffworks.com/mental-health/human-nature/why-humans-evolved-feel-shame.htm
https://bigthink.com/the-present/shame-machine/
https://bigthink.com/the-present/why-shame-helps-humans-survive/
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1805016115
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180910173734.htm
https://fs.blog/positive-side-of-shame/
https://lithub.com/how-public-shaming-helps-society-maintain-its-norms-and-ethical-standards/
Got your own thoughts? Text them to Impolite Society!
Text Rachel and Laura or email us at rude@impolitesocietypodcast.com. Visit our website for info about the show and your hosts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (00:01):
Shame can be so crushing, it feels
like it's weighing down yourvery soul.
It's the sudden flush in yourcheeks, red faced and sweaty, a
knot that tightens in yourstomach.
whispered word feels like it'saimed at you, and every glance a
glare.
(00:21):
But beneath a bad rap, sweatypits, and a whole lot of social
stigma, shame can actually be apowerful tool.
Today, we're wading into themurky waters of shame.
We'll unravel the tangled linesbetween shame and guilt,
challenge the definitions we'vebeen handed, and explore how
this emotion has shaped ourspecies.
(00:44):
That's what you're in for todayon Impolite Society.
(01:24):
welcome.
This is Impolite Society.
I'm Laura.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (01:29):
And I'm Rachel.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (01:30):
Shame, shame, shame, Rachel.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (01:32):
Huh,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (01:33):
know your name.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (01:34):
to me?
See?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (01:36):
Yeah.
Because today I'm shamingeveryone.
I'm shaming you.
I'm shaming the listener.
dare you?
How dare you listen to such agross, inappropriate podcast
from two mothers?
Nonetheless, we have birthchildren and you're listening to
this filth from our mouth.
(01:56):
I mean, my mom won't even listento this podcast because we turn,
we curse so much.
And because you talk about weirdthings, sex dolls, anal
bleaching, child free women,save them.
And to you, I say, Shame.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (02:13):
Whoa, that's a, that's an aggressive
way to start the podcast.
I don't like this.
I feel weird.
I feel seen in a bad way.
I feel small, kind of aroused,but weird.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (02:26):
Well, good, because that's what it was
supposed to feel like.
I tried to make this convincingthis is supposed to make you
feel a little bit uncomfy.
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (02:38):
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (02:39):
to sit in that feeling, keep it in
mind as I go through thisresearch, because today I'm
going to tell you all aboutshame and how it might not be as
bad as you think.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (02:52):
What?
Something that's uncomfortablemight be good for you.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (02:56):
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (02:56):
I mean,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (02:57):
it.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (02:57):
in moderation, right?
Everything in moderation.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (03:00):
in moderation.
Okay, so on our episode todayabout the emotion of shame.
Let's start with something easy.
What is shame?
No.
I thought I would be able to doit easily in my research.
Of course I did.
But no, it's not easy at all.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (03:17):
It never is.
Nothing is, nothing is everquite so simple to pin down.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (03:22):
You think it will be right when you
start,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:24):
Well, of course it's a, I know it.
I know it off the top of myhead.
Let's do it.
And then it's like, no, it'sactually way harder.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:30):
Yep, yep, because humans are
complicated.
Society is complicated andemotions are complicated.
And shame involves every singleone of those things.
So, of course, its definition isgoing to be really, really
complicated.
And so, Marion Webster
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (03:50):
Oh, audible, groan,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:55):
Yes, I am sourcing a dictionary here.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:58):
Don't be, don't be too shamed, but a
little shame's good.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (04:02):
No, no, no, I'm not going to let you
shame me for it.
I'm not apologizing.
Because this shit was hard.
I had to find a place to start.
Okay?
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (04:13):
Mm-hmm
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (04:13):
so.
Merriam Webster says that shameis, quote, a painful emotion
caused by consciousness ofguilt, shortcoming, or
impropriety.
because this is actually thelast thing I looked up when I
did this research, a bunch ofwords in this definition jumped
(04:35):
out at me, painful,consciousness, guilt, and guilt.
That really stood out to mebecause.
The first tricky thing that Itried to define in this research
was the difference between shameand guilt.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (04:51):
Okay.
Let me take a guess before yougive me the answer here.
My take.
My stab in the dark is thatguilt is more about the
individual.
Like, I did something thataffected a person.
It's a person who I know, it's aperson I can name, and a face I
can imagine when I think aboutthe thing that I did.
(05:14):
As opposed to shame, which I canconcoct more of the anonymous,
nameless mob that would just bedisgusted by me and my habits.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (05:25):
That is pretty damn close, Rachel's.
Hardcore props.
That's really, really close anda lot of people use the words
interchangeably and actuallycertain cultures have a word for
one, but not the other.
So they are different, butthey're definitely tied
together.
But the most simple answer thatI could find, I, of course,
(05:49):
asked Google and Google AI,right?
And it's like little
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (05:53):
course.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (05:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what it's recommended
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (05:56):
You dumped a bottle of water on the
ground.
It's how it goes.
Yes.
Woo! Woo!
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (06:01):
kind of fell into the trap that many
of us have on shame versus guiltand have lumped these two into
two very distinctive camps asone useful and one not so
useful.
So guilt, according to GoogleAI, focuses on a specific action
(06:21):
or behavior.
Can motivate you to make amendsor apologize.
Two, feels like regret orremorse over something you did.
Flip side of that is shame.
Focuses on your overall selfworth or identity.
Can lead to feelings ofworthlessness and a sense of
being, quote, bad.
May cause withdrawal or hidingbehavior.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (06:44):
So guilt is what keeps you up at
night, right?
When you're tossing and turning,remembering something that you
did.
While shame is more about, like,what you feel when you look in
the mirror.
Right?
Did I, did I, am I understandingthat correctly?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (06:59):
So, the way that Google categorizes
it, and a lot of other peoplecategorize it as guilt, good,
shame, bad, but I think back towhat you originally said as the
definition, which is, I think, alittle bit closer to the truth.
The difference between shame andguilt, it makes shame sound
(07:21):
pretty bad, uh, but I don'tthink it's that clear.
And I'm allowed to not agreewith that definition because the
lines between the two aresquishy.
There is not one definition.
And in fact, it is so squishyThat Nietzsche has a whole
treatise in his book on thegenealogy of morals.
Like it's a treatise about shameand guilt and how it relates.
(07:44):
This research, it got trippierthan I would have expected.
You get too far into this stuffand it gets weird.
I, I almost got sucked into thiswormhole of philosophy, all
about consciousness, moralexistence, being the only
existence, all about selfidentity.
And even though I just gotfinished watching The Good
(08:07):
Place.
I was still like, not today,Satan.
I am staying focused and justwant to watch more of that
charming, charming man, TedDanson.
So I didn't go down the rabbithole on this one.
I wanted to, but I didn't.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (08:23):
Just like the finale of The Good
Place, you let all of thosePassing threads and things that
you wanted to chase go throughthe doorway into the abyss.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (08:34):
I did.
I let them go.
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (08:36):
Hashtag spoiler alert.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (08:40):
So what I'm going to do is I'm
going to boil shame versus guiltdown to one definition that we
can all understand and agreeupon.
But of course not because weactually agree upon it, because
But because we need some sort ofshared understanding to kind of
move forward within thisresearch.
A researcher I came across namedJennifer Jaquette, and it is
(09:01):
pronounced Jaquette because Iwas like, is this Jaquette?
Like, I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:05):
Is it quick?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:06):
No.
I thought I'm doing it wrong.
Nope.
She said it herself.
Jennifer Jaquette.
Uh, summarized it verysuccinctly, quote, shame is
about the threat of exposure.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:17):
Ooh.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:18):
is personal.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:21):
I don't want to be exposed.
Don't expose me.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:24):
So guilt is more about you, you
feel bad about something thatyou did, whereas shame is a very
socially motivated emotion.
It's all about an audience orthe possibility of an audience.
So she gave another really goodanalogy.
So imagine if someone were topublicize your internet search
(09:46):
history from last month orAmazon purchases from the last
10 years.
And that is actually a reallyfun exercise.
I recommend that everyone do ifyou
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:55):
For the last 10 years.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:57):
I mean like just like a long
period, and you're like, I don'tremember buying that.
Why did I need that?
It's interesting.
When you look at those things,you probably didn't experience
any guilt about your Googling oryour buying habits because you
really weren't hurting anybody.
But having the world see them,that is different, and that is
(10:19):
shame.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (10:21):
Okay, I'm tracking here.
While I don't know if my searchhistory, even this podcast, I
could just say any weird makeGoogle search I made is for the
podcast.
But even with all the things Isearched for here, I don't know
if I'd be all that shamed by mysearch history.
Apparently, I'm not.
It's pretty squeaky clean,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (10:42):
Squeak,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (10:42):
but what's not squeaky clean is my
personhood here because Anybodywho knows me closely knows that
I am NOT always a daily bather.
I'm sorry guys
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (10:54):
I'm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (10:55):
Yeah Yeah
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (10:55):
bather.
Not always, never.
I'm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (10:58):
Unless I'm exercising.
Yeah.
In the summer, it's more in thewinter.
No.
do I feel personal guilt aboutnot taking a shower every day?
Not at all, baby.
It is not.
Um, it feels great.
I got my hair is, is never oilyguys because it's used to not
(11:20):
getting washed.
There's a trick to that.
Would I be shamed if somebodyPublicly aired out the last time
I took a shower.
Yes,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (11:29):
You
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (11:30):
like I do not,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (11:31):
I would.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (11:32):
I do not want the world to know
despite the fact that I justtalked about it on my podcast.
But that's what I would thinkabout like, okay, like what I
want to employ.
You guys, we're all friendshere.
We're all friends here.
What I want my employer.
Who is nobody.
What I want You know, in thatcase, like that kind of level,
would I, would I want just likea general person who I want to
(11:55):
think highly of me to know whenthe last time I showered was?
No.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (12:01):
No, I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (12:01):
When was the last time you showered?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (12:05):
Last night, with a shower cap though,
I don't wash my hair.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (12:08):
Oh yeah, I don't, I don't wash my
hair.
I showered yesterday as wellbecause I was going to the
gynecologist.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (12:15):
That's a good motivation to clean it up
down there.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (12:18):
Yeah.
Well, I don't let them do exams,but that's,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (12:22):
bully for you.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (12:23):
I always just wait.
I always do it though.
Just in case.
Cause what if they're like, wewon't fill your prescription.
Yeah.
We won't fill your prescriptionif you don't let us look at you.
And so I'm like, well, shit, Iguess now I have to talk about
shame.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (12:39):
Put your feet in those stirrups and
let us take a look, bitch! So,well, I, I had another analogy
that was closer to home, but Imean, I don't think I can get
much closer to home than lookinginto your, your hoo ha and
stirrups.
But I'm still going to say itbecause I wrote it.
Um, I understand
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (12:57):
you're just trying to shame me.
It's okay.
That's why we have a podcast andembarrass each other.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (13:02):
I understand, through our
communications, you recentlydiscovered
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (13:07):
our communications.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (13:08):
journal of yours from high school,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (13:11):
I did.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (13:12):
you probably don't feel guilty about
what you wrote in there.
I mean, you probably didn't feelguilt then, and probably not
even now.
You were young.
You were dumb.
And the act of writing isn'tharmful to anybody.
Maybe.
Maybe.
I suspect that you probably havea healthy feeling of shame while
reading it, because you, as anow older, wiser, and separate
(13:37):
entity from your former self whowrote it, has discovered it.
are ashamed of your former selfwho has been discovered by you.
I thought that was just reallyinteresting and kind of trippy.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (13:52):
Yeah, I could see where, at first I
thought it was more of guiltbecause I wanted to apologize to
a lot of people.
But, in hindsight, thinkingabout it, it probably is shame
because to me, 16 year oldRachel and what she wrote down
was all it.
It was all just like, No ego, nofilter, no upper frontal cortex.
(14:14):
And when I think about that, I'mlike, maybe I did feel shame,
because what if I internalizedthat to mean, like, the
innermost central version ofRachel just sucks.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (14:25):
because everyone's innermost version of
their self fucking sucks.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (14:28):
Yeah, it was just like, wow, this,
what a self absorbed, like,annoying, oh god.
There's a line where it's like Idon't think that we just found
out today that this one girldoesn't like us me and my Other
annoying friend and I was like,what a whore cuz that's what we
used to call people back in theday and and hindsight I'm like,
(14:49):
no that girl is probably veryaccurate in her assessment of me
and my friend.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (14:53):
No, we suck.
We fucking suck.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (14:55):
I Wouldn't want I like reading it.
I'm like, thank God.
I don't have to experiencemyself as a teenager
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (15:01):
Yeah, and, and, and so it, it is
interesting of this differencebetween shame and guilt and
shame gets this really bad rapback to that Google explanation
and the explanation that manypeople, uh, put forth.
But my question is, should it?
And the answer is, Is, ofcourse, as often on this
(15:22):
podcast.
depends.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (15:24):
I'll just say before we get into it
shame is like my number onemotivator It has made me a
better person every day of mylife.
Let's go
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (15:30):
There we go.
Alright.
So, psychologists tend to groupshame into two categories.
Healthy shame or toxic shame.
And, uh, fuckin How we love thatword.
Toxic.
Everything is toxic.
Toxic people.
Toxic friends.
Toxic family.
kidding aside.
bad kind of shame, it really canbe bad, and as someone who deals
(15:52):
with a boatload of shame, forliterally no good reason, I can
personally attest to this.
It can be really harmful to yourwell being.
The toxic form of shame, itmanifests itself as an inherent
quality.
instead of saying to yourself, Idid a bad thing, Toxic Shame
says, I'm a bad person.
(16:14):
It's this negative view ofyourself that you will find
proof of everywhere.
Because all you can think is howbad and how wrong you are.
Like, I didn't get that jobbecause I suck.
I failed at this crosswordpuzzle because I'm an idiot.
It's that spiral.
It leads to anger, depression,isolation, addiction.
(16:34):
All kinds of bad shit.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (16:37):
Yeah, I would say that that makes a
lot of sense but from theindividual looking to the bigger
picture Would think that there'salso shame that comes from a
society that can end up feedingthose circles that cycles,
right?
like if If you go against thegrain at all, it's very
traditional that there must besomething wrong with you.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (16:59):
hmm.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (17:00):
That's the story we're told over and
over again.
Say, like, there's somethingphysically different about you
and you're taught that you haveto keep it a secret at all
costs, otherwise people will bedisgusted by you.
Like, I'd say, I'd say that'spretty toxic.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2 (17:11):
totally.
And that, that's when it getslike down deep and starts to
affect your sense of self.
That's when it gets dangerous.
the other side of that is thatthere is some healthy shame and
that, that's the kind that Ikind of want to talk about
today, which is social shame.
I know that sounds weird thatsocial shaming is healthy, but
(17:33):
I, I want you and everyone elseto kind of hear me out on this.
This is the feeling you get whenyou do something that is against
the social norms.
Shame is a social tool and itensures that everyone keeps to
expected behavior.
Social shame or the threat ofit, it really bonds a society or
(17:53):
a culture together and it'sactually focused on correction
in its proper form.
origin of this shame.
is biological, and I'll get tothat in a second.
And its purpose in your mind isto keep your group's social
rules front and center.
You can change, you can grow,you can adapt, and then you can
(18:16):
come back and be one of thegroup again.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (18:19):
Because how can we trust that you're not
a threat unless you are exactlylike me?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (18:25):
And this kind of social shame is
universal.
It occurs everywhere in theworld, across cultures and
continents.
Economies, we've tripped into afew cultural universals in the
course of this show, and here isanother one.
There is this feeling that ishardwired into humans.
As a software developer wouldsay, it's a feature, not a bug.
(18:50):
A lot of people try to describeit as like, Oh, this is
terrible.
Why do we have that as a human?
It's there for a reason.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (18:57):
Right, and like when you say the
biological piece of it, muchlike a lot of other biology
about us, it's
laura-b_2_02-07-2 (19:04):
menstruation,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (19:05):
Yeah.
It's brutal, it's utilitarian,it's unfeeling, like nature,
right?
And in the world we live in, itmight need some of those checks
and balances from those higherbrains that we develop after the
age of 16.
laura-b_2_02-07-202 (19:20):
absolutely,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (19:22):
Ha ha ha ha ha!
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (19:25):
So let's think about our cavemen
ancestors and how they lived.
We've talked about this before.
High stress, high mortality,scarce food, and
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (19:33):
The good old days.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (19:34):
the good old days of, you know, I
don't know, 500 BC.
actually, even before that, Iwould say.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (19:42):
Yeah, civilization.
Civilization has been around fora long time.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (19:48):
Yeah, I don't even know, uh,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (19:49):
Jesus wasn't a caveman.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (19:51):
People quickly realized we are better
together, and we relied on oneanother for assistance and
reproduction.
Because let's be honest here,um, these dumb fucking human
babies God, they need a lot ofhelp to take care of them.
Just one person on the, thedesert plains, not going to fare
well.
So we relied on each other tosurvive and being valued by the
(20:16):
group was a huge part of that.
Valued member of the tribe wouldlead to more help with baby Nug
Nug, right?
More food, better protection.
It's kind of like every doctorin apocalypse movies.
They're not sending them out onrisky missions.
They're sending the people theydon't like or the people that
(20:36):
they don't need.
equals safety, so anything thatweighs against you in the value
category is bad for you and yoursurvival.
So when the tribe membersconsidered their day to day
action, they had to think abouthow it affected their social
standing.
So say you were extra hungrythat day and you wanted to steal
(20:58):
the last, bit of the acorns inthe acorn repository.
the
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:04):
Yum, yeah, very important.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (21:07):
That action would have to be weighed.
much would I benefit fromstealing this food?
how full will those acorns
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:17):
How many calories can I swipe?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (21:19):
Yeah Versus the social cost of the
action.
How much will others devalue meif they find out and then to add
to that social calculation Howlikely is it are they gonna find
out that it was me?
And again back to brains justfucking amazing all this
abstract and the value judgmentsand social judgments being made
(21:42):
before you determine an action.
Amazing.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:45):
And I'm not even sure it's
conscious, right?
Like, I don't feel that Nug Nugwas sitting down thinking this
all through.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (21:52):
Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:52):
feel like all that experimentation
with what is and isn'tacceptable by the group that is
your survival is all figured outin childhood, right?
So, they probably tried to grabtoo many acorns when they were
two and they whacked them on thehand.
And told them, no, no, no, wedon't do that.
And they've done enough of thistrial and error by the time that
(22:12):
they're an adult, they don'thave to think about taking or
not taking the food.
They know how much food theyneed to take and they don't
question it, right?
It's just, that's how ingrainedthese societal norms are.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (22:25):
Yeah.
And, and the purpose of thatsocial shame is to keep us from
doing those things that willmake the people around us
devalue us or our wellbeing.
So it is this really usefultool.
It truly is a feature and not abug.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (22:39):
To me, when I was reading this, It
reminded me of our lonelinessepisode where we equated
loneliness to hunger,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (22:48):
Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (22:48):
right?
It's a feeling that we have, aphysiological feeling that we
have that causes us to seekaction, right?
You're hungry, you eat.
You're lonely, you seek outother people.
And I see this to be kind of thesame side of that hunger
analogy, right?
Where if loneliness is hunger,then maybe shame is kind of like
(23:10):
It's kind of guiding us alongand telling us what we want to
eat, what our body needs toavoid us being in that situation
where we're starving and notbeing able to meet that need,
right?
So we keep the shame, shame kindof guides us so that we're not
booted out of the group
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (23:27):
yeah, and I think of it a lot like
pain, because pain doesn't feelgood, but it definitely serves a
purpose.
It says, get your hand off thatgoddamn stove, you're burning.
burning the flesh off your hand.
It's self preservation.
So shame is the emotional painwe feel when damaging our
(23:47):
relationships or our socialstanding.
And if anyone listening thinksthat this is bullshit, shame is
created as a product of JudeoChristian values, the
patriarchy, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera, many studies
have confirmed that shame existsacross cultures, large scale and
small scale societies.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (24:08):
I would bet money right here,
right now, that there is somevariation or some version of
shame, even within chimps andother social apes.
Because that's just, that's howthese social dynamics work.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (24:22):
Yes, I would agree with that because
it, it depends based on yourculture.
Is it a more collectivist orindividualist culture?
So that will change the level ofshame that you feel for
different things.
And the triggering actions aredifferent across different
cultures.
But one thing that remainsconsistent across the groups is
(24:42):
that the level of shame a personfeels is directly correlated to
how he thinks.
are going to feel about theiractions.
And so I read multiple of thesestudies and it was a little bit
confusing at first.
I had to look at them a coupletimes.
The consensus that feelings ofshame are actually in lockstep
(25:05):
with the values of everyone heldaround you.
So you feel 7 out of 10 guiltBecause you know your peers will
think of your actions as 7 outof 10 bad.
Does that make sense?
Like,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (25:21):
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-202 (25:21):
correlated.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (25:22):
And even the same kind of event
might have different levels,right?
So stealing a couple acorns inthe summer is going to be very
different than stealing a coupleacorns in January.
laura-b_2_02-07-202 (25:33):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and the amount ofinternalization you do.
is directly correlated to thatabout how big of a difference it
is it's going to feel.
Um, it's the amount of shame youfeel, it's never significantly
more or less than what youbelieve your peers will feel
(25:53):
towards you.
And this pattern directlycorrelates It was found across
all the people they studied.
Tribes, small groups, towns,cities, countries.
It didn't matter.
that is the difference betweenshame and guilt.
Guilt can be variable on a lotof different things because it's
personal.
You are judging you, but withshame When you know your group
(26:15):
will despise you for somethingthat you did.
When you took those acorns inJanuary, when it was the deadest
of winter, and they did not haveany food, you will despise
yourself for it too, at theexact same level.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (26:30):
Because honestly, when no one's
watching, we're all prettyshameful.
I see you picking your nose inyour car in rush hour traffic.
Oh, actually, that's just me inthe review.
Like when I'm in my car.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (26:44):
nose.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (26:45):
Yeah, when I'm in my car, I'm like, I
might as well be on a desertisland.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (26:51):
And in that line of thinking, you
can also Also feel shame forsomething that isn't your fault.
if you did nothing wrong, if youare displaying a characteristic
that you know your group willthink negatively of, you're
going to feel shame for thattoo.
(27:12):
And that, my opinion, is wherewe get into that toxic shame.
Because there are some thingsthat are just out of your
control.
Some people are ugly.
Some people are sick.
These are things that areoutside of your sphere of
control.
And the feeling of shame forthese things is that double
edged sword.
This is the buggy side of thatfeature within human nature.
(27:33):
Brains.
Am I right?
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (27:38):
out of your control, but just think
that you have That you enjoythat go against the grain, but
don't hurt anyone, right?
Like, you might feel shame aboutloving to read fanfiction in the
Omegaverse.
But that isn't something that'sgoing to hurt somebody.
That's not something that, youknow, you need to feel bad about
because even if other peopledon't understand.
(28:01):
And again, it's something thatyou're seeking out and you're
choosing, right?
That's what I guess I was tryingto say there.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (28:06):
Yeah.
And it's not hurting anybody.
I don't think a lot of peoplewho are listening are going to
know what the Omegaverse is.
I didn't even know the term forit before I was talking to you
about it, but, uh, in otherwords, if you're into some weird
like You know,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (28:20):
I think maybe more people know the
Megaverse than we think.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (28:24):
Maybe.
We'll find out when your nextepisode of SHIP happens.
But, Um, I get what you'resaying though.
It's not, it doesn't hurtanybody, but you know the group
is going to view you negativelyabout it.
So you feel the correspondingamount of shame
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (28:39):
Yeah, so what is the tipping point
from like, I'm doing somethingthat's against the welfare of
the group to I'm just doingsomething that's against the
grain of the group.
And that's where that toxicitykind of comes in.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (28:50):
Yeah.
And the bugginess, right?
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (28:52):
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (28:52):
was a useful aspect when there was,
when life was a lot simpler.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (28:58):
In those good old days.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2 (29:00):
exactly.
So again, modern society hascomplicated things.
Another universal is actuallythat display of shame and guilt,
the way people slump theirshoulders, they blush, they kind
of cover their face.
That occurs everywhere.
Uh, the cause of shame varies byculture, of course, but the way
we act when faced with the, theshame, it is the same.
(29:22):
It's like laughter or a smile.
We just do it.
No one taught it.
It just happens.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (29:28):
So while my bathing frequency might
not be shameful around theworld, wherever I go, I can let
others know I feel shame aboutit without having to learn their
language,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (29:39):
Mm-hmm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (29:39):
is a universal language.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (29:43):
So there, there is good and bad in
shame, but that toxic shame thatI mentioned, feeling like you're
a terrible person who can neverchange for something that may or
may not be your fault orsomething that doesn't hurt
anybody.
don't just do that to ourselves.
Society can use shame in thatsame way.
(30:03):
Basically social shame onoverdrive.
And I can do a whole episode oninternet shaming because it's
really complicated, but it'salso kind of fucking scary.
I mean, I, I'm not saying not tocall people out who have done
wrong, but I am saying that inthe name and shame movement, I
(30:26):
want people to try to rememberwhat I think is the truer
purpose of shame.
And that is it's not to makesomebody bow out of society,
want to kill themselves, feellike they're a person unworthy
of redemption.
That's not helpful.
That's more like banishment, orlike, you know, a social version
of public execution.
(30:47):
The objective of shame, in myeyes, is to make people realize
their actions are not okay, butthey can change and they can
rejoin the group.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (30:56):
Right, because nobody ever really
changed based off a zingercomment that somebody wrote you
or whatever.
You know, telling you to go jumpoff a bridge
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (31:05):
huh.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (31:06):
direct message, you know?
And, to me, when it comes tothis kind of stuff, it's like,
is it even really that everybodyneeds to be shamed?
People get so in their heads, orpeople get so myopic with their
worldview.
Like, just because you thinkit's right doesn't mean it's
right to everybody.
So, like, a lot of the stuffthey're shaming people for,
Sorry, my head goes to like momcontent because that's like what
(31:29):
I get a lot of but I'm like isit really somebody's doing
Something wrong or they justdoing something different than
you do And so people are shamingeach other for every little
thing under the sun and it'slike they're just doing it
differently like like everybodycalm down
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (31:43):
Because everyone's attached to some sort
of value judgment.
Right?
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (31:47):
to literally everything
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (31:49):
It's awful.
And then, of course, there's theother side of the coin that's
also dangerous, which is tryingto banish shame altogether.
In this episode, there's a lotof sword edges, and coin flips,
and
rachel_2_02-07-202 (32:05):
Everything's connected
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (32:07):
It really is.
This was a really complicatedconcept that I didn't expect,
but I mean, I should havebecause people are complicated.
Mmmmmmmmm.
rachel_2_02-07-2025 (32:15):
opportunity for me to work on something that
I've been workshopping in myhead for a while, but did not
have quite the outlet for.
And that is, on a weird momadjacent spiral on TikTok, is
I've fallen down this messyhouse shaming, which has been, I
don't know if it's a trend foreverybody or if it's just me,
but apparently there's a lot of,I
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (32:35):
you.
Hehehe,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (32:36):
A lot of women who are posting
videos of their cleaning theirmessy houses and talking about
how they're coming out ofdepression and they're trying to
take the shame away from themessy houses and Getting it
clean and down in the town.
On the flip side you have peoplewith super clean houses Then
shaming the people who aretrying to clean the house That
(32:57):
they had gone messy.
And then they're saying there'sno excuse.
Right?
There's no excuse for your houseto ever get that bad.
What you're doing is wrong foryour family.
Wrong for your kids.
And we shouldn't be acceptingit.
We should be shaming people forit getting that bad.
It's not healthy.
That's what they say.
It's not healthy.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (33:16):
how bad it is.
If you're talking about ahoarder house, okay.
But, like, most of us don't fallin that
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (33:20):
Yeah.
Some of them are pretty gnarly.
I, I mean, honestly, theyprobably do it.
For the video, right?
They just let it get reallymessy so they can clean it up
for the video.
Um, but there's like food.
One lady had cat pee and thingslike that.
So, it's like, it is, it's nothealthy.
And it should not be somethingthat
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (33:41):
that's unhealthy.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (33:42):
yeah.
That's not something we're proudof.
But then I got my little wheelsturning because I'm a contrarian
pedantic asshole.
So then I'm like, well, why isit okay to say that their house
is unhealthy?
Researchers show that kids don'tsurvive, like don't thrive in
those environments.
Da da da da.
Why is it okay to be like,that's not healthy, but then not
tell somebody who is living in avery heavy body that that's not
(34:05):
healthy either, right?
Like, because you could, you cansay, Oh, your house is
disgusting.
You're disgusting.
You can't say that to somebodyabout their body.
Right.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (34:13):
because the
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:13):
so
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (34:14):
was creating that content shaming
unclean houses was a largewoman.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:19):
One of them was.
Well, okay, that's the otherthing is a trend is usually the
women who in the clean houseswho are shaming women with the
messy houses, that the women inthe clean houses are heavier and
the women with the clean houseare the messy houses are
skinnier.
So then I feel like they are solatched onto this because
there's some kind of powerreversal.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (34:36):
I can be the morally superior.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (34:39):
society assigns moral value to body
weight.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (34:42):
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:43):
if you see a, you know, a slender
person in the world, the societyis going to treat them better
than somebody who is heavier.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (34:49):
Mm-hmm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:50):
it was just fascinating.
I feel like I could write athesis on the psychology of it
because I, that's why they'reusing that position to be like,
I have a position of powersocially over you now.
So I'm going to like, wham,wham, wham.
Instead of being like, yeah,your house might be cluttered,
I'm But you, you know, like,you're not feeding your family
chicken nuggets every night.
(35:10):
It's just, anyway, sorry, that'slike,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (35:12):
No, I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (35:13):
just an interesting thread to pull
that I've been thinking aboutand I've been searching for a
way to talk about it and it justso happened, like, when to apply
shame, when to not apply shame,it just fits, it just fit in
well here, right?
When you're looking at, weshouldn't, we should exchange
people for their houses, butlike, where do we draw the line,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (35:31):
It's really complicated and I see it
in that healthy shame.
Can help us see that we need toobey the rules of society in
order to be a part of society.
It can be productive.
It can let us know that notevery whim we have is a good
one.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (35:49):
And it makes us extra conscious of
our behavior in public, too,when anybody can whip out a cell
phone,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (35:54):
Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (35:54):
you, and then the world see your
behavior.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (35:58):
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (35:58):
That's like a very effective outcome
of, uh, shame, a very effectivetool of shaming people to be
better.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (36:06):
yeah, but then I feel like there's
also been this weird reversal inthe sense of like, no, nobody
should shame anybody aboutanything.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (36:15):
Right.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (36:15):
so, you, you just need to.
You know, except everybody and,and all their different stages
of, know, disgusting house withroaches and, you know what I
mean?
Like, it, there was a time thatbeing vain was kind of shameful.
Like, if you had a picture ofjust yourself in a, on a canvas
(36:39):
on your wall that looked like asnack, There was a time that
would have been embarrassing.
I mean, I think it's stillembarrassing, but a lot of
people now seem to just have nosocial shame and be like, what,
I'm just embracing myself.
I think I'm beautiful and I wantto embrace myself.
And, like when they whip outtheir camera at the gym and they
get mad when people walk intotheir shot, they're all chanting
(37:00):
the mantra of, I'm going to bethe main character in my life
and have ignored any kind ofsocial shame.
And it's all about being selfishin the name of becoming self
actualized or self acceptance orwhatever terms that therapy
people are throwing aroundnowadays.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (37:18):
Yeah, it is definitely the phones, I
think, and social media that'shaving some effect on this,
right?
Because now, the shame isgetting put down because
victimhood is a currency.
So if you try to shame someone,they just throw a bunch of
things back at you that youcan't say, oh, well that's, you
know, that's not an excusebecause mental health has to
come first, all these otherthings have to come first.
(37:40):
So because everybody is saying,It's so wrapped up in their
victimhood that they don't feellike they have accountability
and when there's notaccountability, you can't have
shame, right?
And on the flip side,everybody's trying to shame
people 24 7, that's why we haveterms like Karen's and that kind
of stuff.
So now if somebody is trying toshame you, there's, it's just,
(38:01):
everybody's been shamed forevery little thing, every little
inconvenience,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (38:04):
becomes
rachel_2_02-07-202 (38:05):
meaningless, right?
It's just such a weird time.
It's just, Yeah, shame, like yousaid, it was meant to keep us
functioning as a group, so whenthat age old refined system
starts to break down, we reallyjust all become our own main
characters.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (38:22):
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (38:22):
that pendulum swing, right?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (38:24):
because the group has become so, uh,
dispersed.
There is no one group.
There's like a
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (38:30):
Well, right, because, yeah, the people
you might care about are here,they're everywhere.
They're not your neighbors, thepeople that you run into at the
grocery store.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (38:40):
hmm.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (38:40):
why would you care if they shame you
or what they think about you?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (38:45):
No, totally.
And, you know, I, I did likesome shitting on therapy talk
and I just want to clarify, Ilike therapists and I like
therapy.
I think that literally everyperson should do it to explore
your mind and explore youremotions.
But just the goal of life is notto banish shame and feel good
(39:07):
about yourself 24 seven.
It's unrealistic and in my eyes,it's totally unhealthy And as
much as America is anindividualist country, and I
love that, truly I do, we haveto live in a world that's
populated by others.
There are some social mores thatneed to be followed, some taboos
keep to yourself, people.
(39:29):
And I know we do a podcast abouttaboos, but also we're not going
to talk about bestiality andgive you a rah, rah, rah on this
podcast, because I think that'ssomething that you should be
ashamed of.
And not because I want it tofester inside of you and become
that toxic side of shame thattells you that you're bad or
wrong or that you can't bechanged.
(39:50):
But because if we areindividualists, you shouldn't be
seeking acceptance from everyoneall the fucking time.
And everyone who doesn't cheeryou on as a barrier to your
happiness.
If, if that is your goal, you'rejust going to end up upset.
Mind your business.
Don't fall into toxic shame.
(40:11):
Keep your shit to yourself.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:13):
And I just think it could wrap back
into that loneliness where ifyou are, Feeling shame that
that's either something that youcan work on and learn to let go
or resolve what the issue is.
Because I think when youoriginally wrote that line, you
weren't thinking aboutbestiality.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (40:32):
wasn't.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:32):
But the way it came together is you
made it sound like if you'reinto bestiality, don't let our
judgment stop you.
Don't look for our approval.
Be you.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (40:43):
that was not what I meant to say.
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:45):
I know.
I I As
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (40:47):
damn self.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:48):
As she started to connect the
thoughts, I was like, this isnot what she's intending.
This was that she meant thatdon't look for external
validation.
So if you are somebody who likesOmegaverse and everybody thinks
that's weird, like who cares?
It's what you like.
Yes.
That's what you were trying tosay.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (41:06):
yes
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (41:07):
The, yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (41:08):
shout it from the rooftops and expect
everyone to applaud
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (41:12):
But at the same time, growth comes
from discomfort.
So if you are feeling shameabout something like your desire
to fuck animals, that is anappropriate time to seek out
professional help to get youthrough whatever you are feeling
or dealing with that is leadingyou towards that proclivity.
Proclivity.
Is that the right word?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (41:33):
Yeah, proclivity
rachel_2_02-07-2025_ (41:34):
Proclivity because there are some urges and
desires that are not acceptablein society that are never going
to be acceptable in society.
And so just like,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (41:45):
Slow your roll Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (41:47):
mean, shame can be powerful in that
way, too.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (41:49):
hmm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (41:49):
it doesn't just make you hold the
door open for people and tryharder in your workout class.
It also can, like we talkedabout, keep people in line in a
way that's constructive forsociety.
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (42:03):
Yeah, and so let's embrace some
healthy shame I just just hideyour smutty books on the subway
keep your socks on in anairplane
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (42:13):
Yeah, nobody wants to see those
tootsies.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (42:17):
Take your phone off speaker when
you're in a public place useyour headphones Embrace the
shame.
It's not all bad
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (42:26):
And you know what would really be a
shame?
If you didn't share this podcastwith somebody in your life.
Like, please send this tosomeone and bond over how weird
we all are here, right?
Like this, we're all weird.
You saw it.
You heard it firsthand.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (42:45):
Got a little ranty there at the end.
Talk
rachel_2_02-07-2025_ (42:54):
listening, you like that as well.
And your friends are probablyjust as brainy as you are.
So be sure to share this podcastwith them.
And shame all your friends whodon't listen to podcasts because
they should be listening topodcasts starting with this one.
Okay.
Joking aside.
And if you're listening onYouTube, smash that thumbs up
and be sure to hit subscribe.
(43:15):
You can also hit the bell to benotified when new videos drop
every Monday now, cause we gotthose little chit chats coming.
So yeah, just wherever you'relistening, just It's more, it's
like I'm talking into, nevermind.
It was like we're talking,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (43:32):
the cavernous vagina of your
gynecology
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (43:35):
That's literally what I was thinking,
but I wasn't going to say,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (43:39):
what you
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (43:39):
I couldn't think of somebody
famous enough for that, Who'sthat lady who got reamed by a
thousand guys in a day?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (43:46):
have no idea.
I know what you're talkingabout, but God knows I don't
know her name.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (43:51):
Yeah, so, um, It's like we're talking
into her vagina.
And now I referenced it again,so we can't cut it out.
Yeah.
Let us know you're there,whether that's by leaving us a
rating or review.
We like ratings.
Let's just be real.
I want to hear your thoughts
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (44:07):
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (44:07):
in your words.
I'm, I'm in a review.
I like reviews.
I want to hear your words andthoughts and original ideas and
don't make AI write it.
But if you have to, that's alsofine with me.
I like ratings and I likereviews.
Send us a note on Spotify.
Let's you do that.
Leave us a comment on YouTubes.
We're on Facebook.
We're on other places.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (44:28):
Just, you know, the things.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (44:30):
And we have an email and you can
email us at rude at employeesociety podcast calm There's
also a link to text us your rudequestions thoughts or things
that you want to shame us aboutPlease don't tell us but if you
want to do sexual things withus, that's just not what we're
here.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (44:47):
can do it to Laura.
Rachel doesn't like it.
Laura
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (44:49):
I Don't like it.
I'm just I'm just a baby.
That's weird that you would wantto do that to a baby a child a
32 year old child
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (44:57):
years old.
You're not a baby.
Okay, okay.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (45:04):
feel inside, don't shame me.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (45:06):
mo Keep
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (45:10):
as an adult baby.
Okay?
Stay rude everybody.
Just feel the right amount ofshame.
And if you feel too much, youshould feel bad about it.
Okay?
We'll see you next time.
Don't forget, stay curious andkeep marching to the beat of
your own drum.
(45:44):
Sorry.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (45:45):
drank too much before I even started.
Not good! Where's my fuckingcigarette?
Fucking hell.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (45:56):
Yep.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (45:56):
is not what a professional does.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (45:59):
Well, good thing we're not getting
paid.
Shame can be so crushing, it feels
like it's weighing down yourvery soul.
It's the sudden flush in yourcheeks, red faced and sweaty, a
knot that tightens in yourstomach.
whispered word feels like it'saimed at you, and every glance a
glare.
(00:21):
But beneath a bad rap, sweatypits, and a whole lot of social
stigma, shame can actually be apowerful tool.
Today, we're wading into themurky waters of shame.
We'll unravel the tangled linesbetween shame and guilt,
challenge the definitions we'vebeen handed, and explore how
this emotion has shaped ourspecies.
(00:44):
That's what you're in for todayon Impolite Society.
(01:24):
welcome.
This is Impolite Society.
I'm Laura.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (01:29):
And I'm Rachel.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (01:30):
Shame, shame, shame, Rachel.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (01:32):
Huh,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (01:33):
know your name.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (01:34):
to me?
See?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (01:36):
Yeah.
Because today I'm shamingeveryone.
I'm shaming you.
I'm shaming the listener.
dare you?
How dare you listen to such agross, inappropriate podcast
from two mothers?
Nonetheless, we have birthchildren and you're listening to
this filth from our mouth.
(01:56):
I mean, my mom won't even listento this podcast because we turn,
we curse so much.
And because you talk about weirdthings, sex dolls, anal
bleaching, child free women,save them.
And to you, I say, Shame.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (02:13):
Whoa, that's a, that's an aggressive
way to start the podcast.
I don't like this.
I feel weird.
I feel seen in a bad way.
I feel small, kind of aroused,but weird.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (02:26):
Well, good, because that's what it was
supposed to feel like.
I tried to make this convincingthis is supposed to make you
feel a little bit uncomfy.
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (02:38):
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (02:39):
to sit in that feeling, keep it in
mind as I go through thisresearch, because today I'm
going to tell you all aboutshame and how it might not be as
bad as you think.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (02:52):
What?
Something that's uncomfortablemight be good for you.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (02:56):
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (02:56):
I mean,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (02:57):
it.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (02:57):
in moderation, right?
Everything in moderation.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (03:00):
in moderation.
Okay, so on our episode todayabout the emotion of shame.
Let's start with something easy.
What is shame?
No.
I thought I would be able to doit easily in my research.
Of course I did.
But no, it's not easy at all.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (03:17):
It never is.
Nothing is, nothing is everquite so simple to pin down.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (03:22):
You think it will be right when you
start,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:24):
Well, of course it's a, I know it.
I know it off the top of myhead.
Let's do it.
And then it's like, no, it'sactually way harder.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:30):
Yep, yep, because humans are
complicated.
Society is complicated andemotions are complicated.
And shame involves every singleone of those things.
So, of course, its definition isgoing to be really, really
complicated.
And so, Marion Webster
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (03:50):
Oh, audible, groan,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:55):
Yes, I am sourcing a dictionary here.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (03:58):
Don't be, don't be too shamed, but a
little shame's good.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (04:02):
No, no, no, I'm not going to let you
shame me for it.
I'm not apologizing.
Because this shit was hard.
I had to find a place to start.
Okay?
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (04:13):
Mm-hmm
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (04:13):
so.
Merriam Webster says that shameis, quote, a painful emotion
caused by consciousness ofguilt, shortcoming, or
impropriety.
because this is actually thelast thing I looked up when I
did this research, a bunch ofwords in this definition jumped
(04:35):
out at me, painful,consciousness, guilt, and guilt.
That really stood out to mebecause.
The first tricky thing that Itried to define in this research
was the difference between shameand guilt.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (04:51):
Okay.
Let me take a guess before yougive me the answer here.
My take.
My stab in the dark is thatguilt is more about the
individual.
Like, I did something thataffected a person.
It's a person who I know, it's aperson I can name, and a face I
can imagine when I think aboutthe thing that I did.
(05:14):
As opposed to shame, which I canconcoct more of the anonymous,
nameless mob that would just bedisgusted by me and my habits.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (05:25):
That is pretty damn close, Rachel's.
Hardcore props.
That's really, really close anda lot of people use the words
interchangeably and actuallycertain cultures have a word for
one, but not the other.
So they are different, butthey're definitely tied
together.
But the most simple answer thatI could find, I, of course,
(05:49):
asked Google and Google AI,right?
And it's like little
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (05:53):
course.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (05:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what it's recommended
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (05:56):
You dumped a bottle of water on the
ground.
It's how it goes.
Yes.
Woo! Woo!
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (06:01):
kind of fell into the trap that many
of us have on shame versus guiltand have lumped these two into
two very distinctive camps asone useful and one not so
useful.
So guilt, according to GoogleAI, focuses on a specific action
(06:21):
or behavior.
Can motivate you to make amendsor apologize.
Two, feels like regret orremorse over something you did.
Flip side of that is shame.
Focuses on your overall selfworth or identity.
Can lead to feelings ofworthlessness and a sense of
being, quote, bad.
May cause withdrawal or hidingbehavior.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (06:44):
So guilt is what keeps you up at
night, right?
When you're tossing and turning,remembering something that you
did.
While shame is more about, like,what you feel when you look in
the mirror.
Right?
Did I, did I, am I understandingthat correctly?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (06:59):
So, the way that Google categorizes
it, and a lot of other peoplecategorize it as guilt, good,
shame, bad, but I think back towhat you originally said as the
definition, which is, I think, alittle bit closer to the truth.
The difference between shame andguilt, it makes shame sound
(07:21):
pretty bad, uh, but I don'tthink it's that clear.
And I'm allowed to not agreewith that definition because the
lines between the two aresquishy.
There is not one definition.
And in fact, it is so squishyThat Nietzsche has a whole
treatise in his book on thegenealogy of morals.
Like it's a treatise about shameand guilt and how it relates.
(07:44):
This research, it got trippierthan I would have expected.
You get too far into this stuffand it gets weird.
I, I almost got sucked into thiswormhole of philosophy, all
about consciousness, moralexistence, being the only
existence, all about selfidentity.
And even though I just gotfinished watching The Good
(08:07):
Place.
I was still like, not today,Satan.
I am staying focused and justwant to watch more of that
charming, charming man, TedDanson.
So I didn't go down the rabbithole on this one.
I wanted to, but I didn't.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (08:23):
Just like the finale of The Good
Place, you let all of thosePassing threads and things that
you wanted to chase go throughthe doorway into the abyss.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (08:34):
I did.
I let them go.
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (08:36):
Hashtag spoiler alert.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (08:40):
So what I'm going to do is I'm
going to boil shame versus guiltdown to one definition that we
can all understand and agreeupon.
But of course not because weactually agree upon it, because
But because we need some sort ofshared understanding to kind of
move forward within thisresearch.
A researcher I came across namedJennifer Jaquette, and it is
(09:01):
pronounced Jaquette because Iwas like, is this Jaquette?
Like, I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:05):
Is it quick?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:06):
No.
I thought I'm doing it wrong.
Nope.
She said it herself.
Jennifer Jaquette.
Uh, summarized it verysuccinctly, quote, shame is
about the threat of exposure.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:17):
Ooh.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:18):
is personal.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:21):
I don't want to be exposed.
Don't expose me.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:24):
So guilt is more about you, you
feel bad about something thatyou did, whereas shame is a very
socially motivated emotion.
It's all about an audience orthe possibility of an audience.
So she gave another really goodanalogy.
So imagine if someone were topublicize your internet search
(09:46):
history from last month orAmazon purchases from the last
10 years.
And that is actually a reallyfun exercise.
I recommend that everyone do ifyou
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (09:55):
For the last 10 years.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (09:57):
I mean like just like a long
period, and you're like, I don'tremember buying that.
Why did I need that?
It's interesting.
When you look at those things,you probably didn't experience
any guilt about your Googling oryour buying habits because you
really weren't hurting anybody.
But having the world see them,that is different, and that is
(10:19):
shame.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (10:21):
Okay, I'm tracking here.
While I don't know if my searchhistory, even this podcast, I
could just say any weird makeGoogle search I made is for the
podcast.
But even with all the things Isearched for here, I don't know
if I'd be all that shamed by mysearch history.
Apparently, I'm not.
It's pretty squeaky clean,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (10:42):
Squeak,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (10:42):
but what's not squeaky clean is my
personhood here because Anybodywho knows me closely knows that
I am NOT always a daily bather.
I'm sorry guys
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (10:54):
I'm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (10:55):
Yeah Yeah
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (10:55):
bather.
Not always, never.
I'm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (10:58):
Unless I'm exercising.
Yeah.
In the summer, it's more in thewinter.
No.
do I feel personal guilt aboutnot taking a shower every day?
Not at all, baby.
It is not.
Um, it feels great.
I got my hair is, is never oilyguys because it's used to not
(11:20):
getting washed.
There's a trick to that.
Would I be shamed if somebodyPublicly aired out the last time
I took a shower.
Yes,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (11:29):
You
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (11:30):
like I do not,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (11:31):
I would.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (11:32):
I do not want the world to know
despite the fact that I justtalked about it on my podcast.
But that's what I would thinkabout like, okay, like what I
want to employ.
You guys, we're all friendshere.
We're all friends here.
What I want my employer.
Who is nobody.
What I want You know, in thatcase, like that kind of level,
would I, would I want just likea general person who I want to
(11:55):
think highly of me to know whenthe last time I showered was?
No.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (12:01):
No, I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (12:01):
When was the last time you showered?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (12:05):
Last night, with a shower cap though,
I don't wash my hair.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (12:08):
Oh yeah, I don't, I don't wash my
hair.
I showered yesterday as wellbecause I was going to the
gynecologist.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (12:15):
That's a good motivation to clean it up
down there.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (12:18):
Yeah.
Well, I don't let them do exams,but that's,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (12:22):
bully for you.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (12:23):
I always just wait.
I always do it though.
Just in case.
Cause what if they're like, wewon't fill your prescription.
Yeah.
We won't fill your prescriptionif you don't let us look at you.
And so I'm like, well, shit, Iguess now I have to talk about
shame.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (12:39):
Put your feet in those stirrups and
let us take a look, bitch! So,well, I, I had another analogy
that was closer to home, but Imean, I don't think I can get
much closer to home than lookinginto your, your hoo ha and
stirrups.
But I'm still going to say itbecause I wrote it.
Um, I understand
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (12:57):
you're just trying to shame me.
It's okay.
That's why we have a podcast andembarrass each other.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (13:02):
I understand, through our
communications, you recentlydiscovered
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (13:07):
our communications.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (13:08):
journal of yours from high school,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (13:11):
I did.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (13:12):
you probably don't feel guilty about
what you wrote in there.
I mean, you probably didn't feelguilt then, and probably not
even now.
You were young.
You were dumb.
And the act of writing isn'tharmful to anybody.
Maybe.
Maybe.
I suspect that you probably havea healthy feeling of shame while
reading it, because you, as anow older, wiser, and separate
(13:37):
entity from your former self whowrote it, has discovered it.
are ashamed of your former selfwho has been discovered by you.
I thought that was just reallyinteresting and kind of trippy.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (13:52):
Yeah, I could see where, at first I
thought it was more of guiltbecause I wanted to apologize to
a lot of people.
But, in hindsight, thinkingabout it, it probably is shame
because to me, 16 year oldRachel and what she wrote down
was all it.
It was all just like, No ego, nofilter, no upper frontal cortex.
(14:14):
And when I think about that, I'mlike, maybe I did feel shame,
because what if I internalizedthat to mean, like, the
innermost central version ofRachel just sucks.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (14:25):
because everyone's innermost version of
their self fucking sucks.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (14:28):
Yeah, it was just like, wow, this,
what a self absorbed, like,annoying, oh god.
There's a line where it's like Idon't think that we just found
out today that this one girldoesn't like us me and my Other
annoying friend and I was like,what a whore cuz that's what we
used to call people back in theday and and hindsight I'm like,
(14:49):
no that girl is probably veryaccurate in her assessment of me
and my friend.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (14:53):
No, we suck.
We fucking suck.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (14:55):
I Wouldn't want I like reading it.
I'm like, thank God.
I don't have to experiencemyself as a teenager
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (15:01):
Yeah, and, and, and so it, it is
interesting of this differencebetween shame and guilt and
shame gets this really bad rapback to that Google explanation
and the explanation that manypeople, uh, put forth.
But my question is, should it?
And the answer is, Is, ofcourse, as often on this
(15:22):
podcast.
depends.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (15:24):
I'll just say before we get into it
shame is like my number onemotivator It has made me a
better person every day of mylife.
Let's go
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (15:30):
There we go.
Alright.
So, psychologists tend to groupshame into two categories.
Healthy shame or toxic shame.
And, uh, fuckin How we love thatword.
Toxic.
Everything is toxic.
Toxic people.
Toxic friends.
Toxic family.
kidding aside.
bad kind of shame, it really canbe bad, and as someone who deals
(15:52):
with a boatload of shame, forliterally no good reason, I can
personally attest to this.
It can be really harmful to yourwell being.
The toxic form of shame, itmanifests itself as an inherent
quality.
instead of saying to yourself, Idid a bad thing, Toxic Shame
says, I'm a bad person.
(16:14):
It's this negative view ofyourself that you will find
proof of everywhere.
Because all you can think is howbad and how wrong you are.
Like, I didn't get that jobbecause I suck.
I failed at this crosswordpuzzle because I'm an idiot.
It's that spiral.
It leads to anger, depression,isolation, addiction.
(16:34):
All kinds of bad shit.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (16:37):
Yeah, I would say that that makes a
lot of sense but from theindividual looking to the bigger
picture Would think that there'salso shame that comes from a
society that can end up feedingthose circles that cycles,
right?
like if If you go against thegrain at all, it's very
traditional that there must besomething wrong with you.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (16:59):
hmm.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (17:00):
That's the story we're told over and
over again.
Say, like, there's somethingphysically different about you
and you're taught that you haveto keep it a secret at all
costs, otherwise people will bedisgusted by you.
Like, I'd say, I'd say that'spretty toxic.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2 (17:11):
totally.
And that, that's when it getslike down deep and starts to
affect your sense of self.
That's when it gets dangerous.
the other side of that is thatthere is some healthy shame and
that, that's the kind that Ikind of want to talk about
today, which is social shame.
I know that sounds weird thatsocial shaming is healthy, but
(17:33):
I, I want you and everyone elseto kind of hear me out on this.
This is the feeling you get whenyou do something that is against
the social norms.
Shame is a social tool and itensures that everyone keeps to
expected behavior.
Social shame or the threat ofit, it really bonds a society or
(17:53):
a culture together and it'sactually focused on correction
in its proper form.
origin of this shame.
is biological, and I'll get tothat in a second.
And its purpose in your mind isto keep your group's social
rules front and center.
You can change, you can grow,you can adapt, and then you can
(18:16):
come back and be one of thegroup again.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (18:19):
Because how can we trust that you're not
a threat unless you are exactlylike me?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (18:25):
And this kind of social shame is
universal.
It occurs everywhere in theworld, across cultures and
continents.
Economies, we've tripped into afew cultural universals in the
course of this show, and here isanother one.
There is this feeling that ishardwired into humans.
As a software developer wouldsay, it's a feature, not a bug.
(18:50):
A lot of people try to describeit as like, Oh, this is
terrible.
Why do we have that as a human?
It's there for a reason.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (18:57):
Right, and like when you say the
biological piece of it, muchlike a lot of other biology
about us, it's
laura-b_2_02-07-2 (19:04):
menstruation,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (19:05):
Yeah.
It's brutal, it's utilitarian,it's unfeeling, like nature,
right?
And in the world we live in, itmight need some of those checks
and balances from those higherbrains that we develop after the
age of 16.
laura-b_2_02-07-202 (19:20):
absolutely,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (19:22):
Ha ha ha ha ha!
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (19:25):
So let's think about our cavemen
ancestors and how they lived.
We've talked about this before.
High stress, high mortality,scarce food, and
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (19:33):
The good old days.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (19:34):
the good old days of, you know, I
don't know, 500 BC.
actually, even before that, Iwould say.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (19:42):
Yeah, civilization.
Civilization has been around fora long time.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (19:48):
Yeah, I don't even know, uh,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (19:49):
Jesus wasn't a caveman.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (19:51):
People quickly realized we are better
together, and we relied on oneanother for assistance and
reproduction.
Because let's be honest here,um, these dumb fucking human
babies God, they need a lot ofhelp to take care of them.
Just one person on the, thedesert plains, not going to fare
well.
So we relied on each other tosurvive and being valued by the
(20:16):
group was a huge part of that.
Valued member of the tribe wouldlead to more help with baby Nug
Nug, right?
More food, better protection.
It's kind of like every doctorin apocalypse movies.
They're not sending them out onrisky missions.
They're sending the people theydon't like or the people that
(20:36):
they don't need.
equals safety, so anything thatweighs against you in the value
category is bad for you and yoursurvival.
So when the tribe membersconsidered their day to day
action, they had to think abouthow it affected their social
standing.
So say you were extra hungrythat day and you wanted to steal
(20:58):
the last, bit of the acorns inthe acorn repository.
the
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:04):
Yum, yeah, very important.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (21:07):
That action would have to be weighed.
much would I benefit fromstealing this food?
how full will those acorns
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:17):
How many calories can I swipe?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (21:19):
Yeah Versus the social cost of the
action.
How much will others devalue meif they find out and then to add
to that social calculation Howlikely is it are they gonna find
out that it was me?
And again back to brains justfucking amazing all this
abstract and the value judgmentsand social judgments being made
(21:42):
before you determine an action.
Amazing.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:45):
And I'm not even sure it's
conscious, right?
Like, I don't feel that Nug Nugwas sitting down thinking this
all through.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (21:52):
Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (21:52):
feel like all that experimentation
with what is and isn'tacceptable by the group that is
your survival is all figured outin childhood, right?
So, they probably tried to grabtoo many acorns when they were
two and they whacked them on thehand.
And told them, no, no, no, wedon't do that.
And they've done enough of thistrial and error by the time that
(22:12):
they're an adult, they don'thave to think about taking or
not taking the food.
They know how much food theyneed to take and they don't
question it, right?
It's just, that's how ingrainedthese societal norms are.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (22:25):
Yeah.
And, and the purpose of thatsocial shame is to keep us from
doing those things that willmake the people around us
devalue us or our wellbeing.
So it is this really usefultool.
It truly is a feature and not abug.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (22:39):
To me, when I was reading this, It
reminded me of our lonelinessepisode where we equated
loneliness to hunger,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (22:48):
Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (22:48):
right?
It's a feeling that we have, aphysiological feeling that we
have that causes us to seekaction, right?
You're hungry, you eat.
You're lonely, you seek outother people.
And I see this to be kind of thesame side of that hunger
analogy, right?
Where if loneliness is hunger,then maybe shame is kind of like
(23:10):
It's kind of guiding us alongand telling us what we want to
eat, what our body needs toavoid us being in that situation
where we're starving and notbeing able to meet that need,
right?
So we keep the shame, shame kindof guides us so that we're not
booted out of the group
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (23:27):
yeah, and I think of it a lot like
pain, because pain doesn't feelgood, but it definitely serves a
purpose.
It says, get your hand off thatgoddamn stove, you're burning.
burning the flesh off your hand.
It's self preservation.
So shame is the emotional painwe feel when damaging our
(23:47):
relationships or our socialstanding.
And if anyone listening thinksthat this is bullshit, shame is
created as a product of JudeoChristian values, the
patriarchy, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera, many studies
have confirmed that shame existsacross cultures, large scale and
small scale societies.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (24:08):
I would bet money right here,
right now, that there is somevariation or some version of
shame, even within chimps andother social apes.
Because that's just, that's howthese social dynamics work.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (24:22):
Yes, I would agree with that because
it, it depends based on yourculture.
Is it a more collectivist orindividualist culture?
So that will change the level ofshame that you feel for
different things.
And the triggering actions aredifferent across different
cultures.
But one thing that remainsconsistent across the groups is
(24:42):
that the level of shame a personfeels is directly correlated to
how he thinks.
are going to feel about theiractions.
And so I read multiple of thesestudies and it was a little bit
confusing at first.
I had to look at them a coupletimes.
The consensus that feelings ofshame are actually in lockstep
(25:05):
with the values of everyone heldaround you.
So you feel 7 out of 10 guiltBecause you know your peers will
think of your actions as 7 outof 10 bad.
Does that make sense?
Like,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (25:21):
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-202 (25:21):
correlated.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (25:22):
And even the same kind of event
might have different levels,right?
So stealing a couple acorns inthe summer is going to be very
different than stealing a coupleacorns in January.
laura-b_2_02-07-202 (25:33):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and the amount ofinternalization you do.
is directly correlated to thatabout how big of a difference it
is it's going to feel.
Um, it's the amount of shame youfeel, it's never significantly
more or less than what youbelieve your peers will feel
(25:53):
towards you.
And this pattern directlycorrelates It was found across
all the people they studied.
Tribes, small groups, towns,cities, countries.
It didn't matter.
that is the difference betweenshame and guilt.
Guilt can be variable on a lotof different things because it's
personal.
You are judging you, but withshame When you know your group
(26:15):
will despise you for somethingthat you did.
When you took those acorns inJanuary, when it was the deadest
of winter, and they did not haveany food, you will despise
yourself for it too, at theexact same level.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (26:30):
Because honestly, when no one's
watching, we're all prettyshameful.
I see you picking your nose inyour car in rush hour traffic.
Oh, actually, that's just me inthe review.
Like when I'm in my car.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (26:44):
nose.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (26:45):
Yeah, when I'm in my car, I'm like, I
might as well be on a desertisland.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (26:51):
And in that line of thinking, you
can also Also feel shame forsomething that isn't your fault.
if you did nothing wrong, if youare displaying a characteristic
that you know your group willthink negatively of, you're
going to feel shame for thattoo.
(27:12):
And that, my opinion, is wherewe get into that toxic shame.
Because there are some thingsthat are just out of your
control.
Some people are ugly.
Some people are sick.
These are things that areoutside of your sphere of
control.
And the feeling of shame forthese things is that double
edged sword.
This is the buggy side of thatfeature within human nature.
(27:33):
Brains.
Am I right?
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (27:38):
out of your control, but just think
that you have That you enjoythat go against the grain, but
don't hurt anyone, right?
Like, you might feel shame aboutloving to read fanfiction in the
Omegaverse.
But that isn't something that'sgoing to hurt somebody.
That's not something that, youknow, you need to feel bad about
because even if other peopledon't understand.
(28:01):
And again, it's something thatyou're seeking out and you're
choosing, right?
That's what I guess I was tryingto say there.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (28:06):
Yeah.
And it's not hurting anybody.
I don't think a lot of peoplewho are listening are going to
know what the Omegaverse is.
I didn't even know the term forit before I was talking to you
about it, but, uh, in otherwords, if you're into some weird
like You know,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (28:20):
I think maybe more people know the
Megaverse than we think.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (28:24):
Maybe.
We'll find out when your nextepisode of SHIP happens.
But, Um, I get what you'resaying though.
It's not, it doesn't hurtanybody, but you know the group
is going to view you negativelyabout it.
So you feel the correspondingamount of shame
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (28:39):
Yeah, so what is the tipping point
from like, I'm doing somethingthat's against the welfare of
the group to I'm just doingsomething that's against the
grain of the group.
And that's where that toxicitykind of comes in.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (28:50):
Yeah.
And the bugginess, right?
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (28:52):
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (28:52):
was a useful aspect when there was,
when life was a lot simpler.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (28:58):
In those good old days.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2 (29:00):
exactly.
So again, modern society hascomplicated things.
Another universal is actuallythat display of shame and guilt,
the way people slump theirshoulders, they blush, they kind
of cover their face.
That occurs everywhere.
Uh, the cause of shame varies byculture, of course, but the way
we act when faced with the, theshame, it is the same.
(29:22):
It's like laughter or a smile.
We just do it.
No one taught it.
It just happens.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (29:28):
So while my bathing frequency might
not be shameful around theworld, wherever I go, I can let
others know I feel shame aboutit without having to learn their
language,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (29:39):
Mm-hmm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (29:39):
is a universal language.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (29:43):
So there, there is good and bad in
shame, but that toxic shame thatI mentioned, feeling like you're
a terrible person who can neverchange for something that may or
may not be your fault orsomething that doesn't hurt
anybody.
don't just do that to ourselves.
Society can use shame in thatsame way.
(30:03):
Basically social shame onoverdrive.
And I can do a whole episode oninternet shaming because it's
really complicated, but it'salso kind of fucking scary.
I mean, I, I'm not saying not tocall people out who have done
wrong, but I am saying that inthe name and shame movement, I
(30:26):
want people to try to rememberwhat I think is the truer
purpose of shame.
And that is it's not to makesomebody bow out of society,
want to kill themselves, feellike they're a person unworthy
of redemption.
That's not helpful.
That's more like banishment, orlike, you know, a social version
of public execution.
(30:47):
The objective of shame, in myeyes, is to make people realize
their actions are not okay, butthey can change and they can
rejoin the group.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (30:56):
Right, because nobody ever really
changed based off a zingercomment that somebody wrote you
or whatever.
You know, telling you to go jumpoff a bridge
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (31:05):
huh.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (31:06):
direct message, you know?
And, to me, when it comes tothis kind of stuff, it's like,
is it even really that everybodyneeds to be shamed?
People get so in their heads, orpeople get so myopic with their
worldview.
Like, just because you thinkit's right doesn't mean it's
right to everybody.
So, like, a lot of the stuffthey're shaming people for,
Sorry, my head goes to like momcontent because that's like what
(31:29):
I get a lot of but I'm like isit really somebody's doing
Something wrong or they justdoing something different than
you do And so people are shamingeach other for every little
thing under the sun and it'slike they're just doing it
differently like like everybodycalm down
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (31:43):
Because everyone's attached to some sort
of value judgment.
Right?
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (31:47):
to literally everything
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (31:49):
It's awful.
And then, of course, there's theother side of the coin that's
also dangerous, which is tryingto banish shame altogether.
In this episode, there's a lotof sword edges, and coin flips,
and
rachel_2_02-07-202 (32:05):
Everything's connected
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (32:07):
It really is.
This was a really complicatedconcept that I didn't expect,
but I mean, I should havebecause people are complicated.
Mmmmmmmmm.
rachel_2_02-07-2025 (32:15):
opportunity for me to work on something that
I've been workshopping in myhead for a while, but did not
have quite the outlet for.
And that is, on a weird momadjacent spiral on TikTok, is
I've fallen down this messyhouse shaming, which has been, I
don't know if it's a trend foreverybody or if it's just me,
but apparently there's a lot of,I
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (32:35):
you.
Hehehe,
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (32:36):
A lot of women who are posting
videos of their cleaning theirmessy houses and talking about
how they're coming out ofdepression and they're trying to
take the shame away from themessy houses and Getting it
clean and down in the town.
On the flip side you have peoplewith super clean houses Then
shaming the people who aretrying to clean the house That
(32:57):
they had gone messy.
And then they're saying there'sno excuse.
Right?
There's no excuse for your houseto ever get that bad.
What you're doing is wrong foryour family.
Wrong for your kids.
And we shouldn't be acceptingit.
We should be shaming people forit getting that bad.
It's not healthy.
That's what they say.
It's not healthy.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (33:16):
how bad it is.
If you're talking about ahoarder house, okay.
But, like, most of us don't fallin that
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (33:20):
Yeah.
Some of them are pretty gnarly.
I, I mean, honestly, theyprobably do it.
For the video, right?
They just let it get reallymessy so they can clean it up
for the video.
Um, but there's like food.
One lady had cat pee and thingslike that.
So, it's like, it is, it's nothealthy.
And it should not be somethingthat
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (33:41):
that's unhealthy.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (33:42):
yeah.
That's not something we're proudof.
But then I got my little wheelsturning because I'm a contrarian
pedantic asshole.
So then I'm like, well, why isit okay to say that their house
is unhealthy?
Researchers show that kids don'tsurvive, like don't thrive in
those environments.
Da da da da.
Why is it okay to be like,that's not healthy, but then not
tell somebody who is living in avery heavy body that that's not
(34:05):
healthy either, right?
Like, because you could, you cansay, Oh, your house is
disgusting.
You're disgusting.
You can't say that to somebodyabout their body.
Right.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (34:13):
because the
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:13):
so
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (34:14):
was creating that content shaming
unclean houses was a largewoman.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:19):
One of them was.
Well, okay, that's the otherthing is a trend is usually the
women who in the clean houseswho are shaming women with the
messy houses, that the women inthe clean houses are heavier and
the women with the clean houseare the messy houses are
skinnier.
So then I feel like they are solatched onto this because
there's some kind of powerreversal.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (34:36):
I can be the morally superior.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213 (34:39):
society assigns moral value to body
weight.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (34:42):
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:43):
if you see a, you know, a slender
person in the world, the societyis going to treat them better
than somebody who is heavier.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213 (34:49):
Mm-hmm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (34:50):
it was just fascinating.
I feel like I could write athesis on the psychology of it
because I, that's why they'reusing that position to be like,
I have a position of powersocially over you now.
So I'm going to like, wham,wham, wham.
Instead of being like, yeah,your house might be cluttered,
I'm But you, you know, like,you're not feeding your family
chicken nuggets every night.
(35:10):
It's just, anyway, sorry, that'slike,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (35:12):
No, I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (35:13):
just an interesting thread to pull
that I've been thinking aboutand I've been searching for a
way to talk about it and it justso happened, like, when to apply
shame, when to not apply shame,it just fits, it just fit in
well here, right?
When you're looking at, weshouldn't, we should exchange
people for their houses, butlike, where do we draw the line,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (35:31):
It's really complicated and I see it
in that healthy shame.
Can help us see that we need toobey the rules of society in
order to be a part of society.
It can be productive.
It can let us know that notevery whim we have is a good
one.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (35:49):
And it makes us extra conscious of
our behavior in public, too,when anybody can whip out a cell
phone,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (35:54):
Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (35:54):
you, and then the world see your
behavior.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (35:58):
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (35:58):
That's like a very effective outcome
of, uh, shame, a very effectivetool of shaming people to be
better.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (36:06):
yeah, but then I feel like there's
also been this weird reversal inthe sense of like, no, nobody
should shame anybody aboutanything.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (36:15):
Right.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (36:15):
so, you, you just need to.
You know, except everybody and,and all their different stages
of, know, disgusting house withroaches and, you know what I
mean?
Like, it, there was a time thatbeing vain was kind of shameful.
Like, if you had a picture ofjust yourself in a, on a canvas
(36:39):
on your wall that looked like asnack, There was a time that
would have been embarrassing.
I mean, I think it's stillembarrassing, but a lot of
people now seem to just have nosocial shame and be like, what,
I'm just embracing myself.
I think I'm beautiful and I wantto embrace myself.
And, like when they whip outtheir camera at the gym and they
get mad when people walk intotheir shot, they're all chanting
(37:00):
the mantra of, I'm going to bethe main character in my life
and have ignored any kind ofsocial shame.
And it's all about being selfishin the name of becoming self
actualized or self acceptance orwhatever terms that therapy
people are throwing aroundnowadays.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (37:18):
Yeah, it is definitely the phones, I
think, and social media that'shaving some effect on this,
right?
Because now, the shame isgetting put down because
victimhood is a currency.
So if you try to shame someone,they just throw a bunch of
things back at you that youcan't say, oh, well that's, you
know, that's not an excusebecause mental health has to
come first, all these otherthings have to come first.
(37:40):
So because everybody is saying,It's so wrapped up in their
victimhood that they don't feellike they have accountability
and when there's notaccountability, you can't have
shame, right?
And on the flip side,everybody's trying to shame
people 24 7, that's why we haveterms like Karen's and that kind
of stuff.
So now if somebody is trying toshame you, there's, it's just,
(38:01):
everybody's been shamed forevery little thing, every little
inconvenience,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (38:04):
becomes
rachel_2_02-07-202 (38:05):
meaningless, right?
It's just such a weird time.
It's just, Yeah, shame, like yousaid, it was meant to keep us
functioning as a group, so whenthat age old refined system
starts to break down, we reallyjust all become our own main
characters.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (38:22):
Yeah.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (38:22):
that pendulum swing, right?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (38:24):
because the group has become so, uh,
dispersed.
There is no one group.
There's like a
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (38:30):
Well, right, because, yeah, the people
you might care about are here,they're everywhere.
They're not your neighbors, thepeople that you run into at the
grocery store.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (38:40):
hmm.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (38:40):
why would you care if they shame you
or what they think about you?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (38:45):
No, totally.
And, you know, I, I did likesome shitting on therapy talk
and I just want to clarify, Ilike therapists and I like
therapy.
I think that literally everyperson should do it to explore
your mind and explore youremotions.
But just the goal of life is notto banish shame and feel good
(39:07):
about yourself 24 seven.
It's unrealistic and in my eyes,it's totally unhealthy And as
much as America is anindividualist country, and I
love that, truly I do, we haveto live in a world that's
populated by others.
There are some social mores thatneed to be followed, some taboos
keep to yourself, people.
(39:29):
And I know we do a podcast abouttaboos, but also we're not going
to talk about bestiality andgive you a rah, rah, rah on this
podcast, because I think that'ssomething that you should be
ashamed of.
And not because I want it tofester inside of you and become
that toxic side of shame thattells you that you're bad or
wrong or that you can't bechanged.
(39:50):
But because if we areindividualists, you shouldn't be
seeking acceptance from everyoneall the fucking time.
And everyone who doesn't cheeryou on as a barrier to your
happiness.
If, if that is your goal, you'rejust going to end up upset.
Mind your business.
Don't fall into toxic shame.
(40:11):
Keep your shit to yourself.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:13):
And I just think it could wrap back
into that loneliness where ifyou are, Feeling shame that
that's either something that youcan work on and learn to let go
or resolve what the issue is.
Because I think when youoriginally wrote that line, you
weren't thinking aboutbestiality.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21 (40:32):
wasn't.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:32):
But the way it came together is you
made it sound like if you'reinto bestiality, don't let our
judgment stop you.
Don't look for our approval.
Be you.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (40:43):
that was not what I meant to say.
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:45):
I know.
I I As
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (40:47):
damn self.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (40:48):
As she started to connect the
thoughts, I was like, this isnot what she's intending.
This was that she meant thatdon't look for external
validation.
So if you are somebody who likesOmegaverse and everybody thinks
that's weird, like who cares?
It's what you like.
Yes.
That's what you were trying tosay.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (41:06):
yes
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (41:07):
The, yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (41:08):
shout it from the rooftops and expect
everyone to applaud
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (41:12):
But at the same time, growth comes
from discomfort.
So if you are feeling shameabout something like your desire
to fuck animals, that is anappropriate time to seek out
professional help to get youthrough whatever you are feeling
or dealing with that is leadingyou towards that proclivity.
Proclivity.
Is that the right word?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (41:33):
Yeah, proclivity
rachel_2_02-07-2025_ (41:34):
Proclivity because there are some urges and
desires that are not acceptablein society that are never going
to be acceptable in society.
And so just like,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (41:45):
Slow your roll Mm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (41:47):
mean, shame can be powerful in that
way, too.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (41:49):
hmm
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (41:49):
it doesn't just make you hold the
door open for people and tryharder in your workout class.
It also can, like we talkedabout, keep people in line in a
way that's constructive forsociety.
Yeah.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (42:03):
Yeah, and so let's embrace some
healthy shame I just just hideyour smutty books on the subway
keep your socks on in anairplane
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (42:13):
Yeah, nobody wants to see those
tootsies.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (42:17):
Take your phone off speaker when
you're in a public place useyour headphones Embrace the
shame.
It's not all bad
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (42:26):
And you know what would really be a
shame?
If you didn't share this podcastwith somebody in your life.
Like, please send this tosomeone and bond over how weird
we all are here, right?
Like this, we're all weird.
You saw it.
You heard it firsthand.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (42:45):
Got a little ranty there at the end.
Talk
rachel_2_02-07-2025_ (42:54):
listening, you like that as well.
And your friends are probablyjust as brainy as you are.
So be sure to share this podcastwith them.
And shame all your friends whodon't listen to podcasts because
they should be listening topodcasts starting with this one.
Okay.
Joking aside.
And if you're listening onYouTube, smash that thumbs up
and be sure to hit subscribe.
(43:15):
You can also hit the bell to benotified when new videos drop
every Monday now, cause we gotthose little chit chats coming.
So yeah, just wherever you'relistening, just It's more, it's
like I'm talking into, nevermind.
It was like we're talking,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (43:32):
the cavernous vagina of your
gynecology
rachel_2_02-07-2025_2132 (43:35):
That's literally what I was thinking,
but I wasn't going to say,
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (43:39):
what you
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (43:39):
I couldn't think of somebody
famous enough for that, Who'sthat lady who got reamed by a
thousand guys in a day?
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_21325 (43:46):
have no idea.
I know what you're talkingabout, but God knows I don't
know her name.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (43:51):
Yeah, so, um, It's like we're talking
into her vagina.
And now I referenced it again,so we can't cut it out.
Yeah.
Let us know you're there,whether that's by leaving us a
rating or review.
We like ratings.
Let's just be real.
I want to hear your thoughts
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (44:07):
I
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (44:07):
in your words.
I'm, I'm in a review.
I like reviews.
I want to hear your words andthoughts and original ideas and
don't make AI write it.
But if you have to, that's alsofine with me.
I like ratings and I likereviews.
Send us a note on Spotify.
Let's you do that.
Leave us a comment on YouTubes.
We're on Facebook.
We're on other places.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (44:28):
Just, you know, the things.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (44:30):
And we have an email and you can
email us at rude at employeesociety podcast calm There's
also a link to text us your rudequestions thoughts or things
that you want to shame us aboutPlease don't tell us but if you
want to do sexual things withus, that's just not what we're
here.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (44:47):
can do it to Laura.
Rachel doesn't like it.
Laura
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (44:49):
I Don't like it.
I'm just I'm just a baby.
That's weird that you would wantto do that to a baby a child a
32 year old child
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (44:57):
years old.
You're not a baby.
Okay, okay.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (45:04):
feel inside, don't shame me.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (45:06):
mo Keep
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (45:10):
as an adult baby.
Okay?
Stay rude everybody.
Just feel the right amount ofshame.
And if you feel too much, youshould feel bad about it.
Okay?
We'll see you next time.
Don't forget, stay curious andkeep marching to the beat of
your own drum.
(45:44):
Sorry.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_2132 (45:45):
drank too much before I even started.
Not good! Where's my fuckingcigarette?
Fucking hell.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257 (45:56):
Yep.
laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256 (45:56):
is not what a professional does.
rachel_2_02-07-2025_21325 (45:59):
Well, good thing we're not getting
paid.
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