May 13, 2025 • 64 mins
It's the Second Anniversary of Improv and Magic!
To celebrate, I sit down with my guest Josephine Lee, one of the world's leading female illusionists.
Known for her mesmerizing stage presence and groundbreaking illusions, Josephine has taken the magic world by storm, performing in theaters, on television, and at high-profile events across the globe. Josephine first gained international recognition as a stage assistant to Dutch magician Hans Klok, before stepping into the spotlight as a solo performer. Her appearances on Britain’s Got Talent, The Next Great Magician, and Penn & Teller: Fool Us showcased her innovative approach to magic, earning her widespread acclaim. In 2018, she was honored with the prestigious Mandrake d'Or, an award celebrating excellence in illusion artistry.
In this exclusive interview, Josephine shares insights into her journey from assistant to headliner, the challenges of breaking barriers in the magic industry, and the secrets behind her most astonishing illusions. She also discusses the evolution of magic in modern entertainment and what it takes to captivate audiences worldwide.
To learn more about Josephine Lee, visit her website at josephinelee.co.uk.
And be sure to visit my brand new website, ldmadera.com to learn more about yours truly! Don't forget to rate and review and share with your friends!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello friends. Hello.
Hello my friends. Welcome once again to Improv and
Magic. I'm your host and your friend LD
Madera, and I hope you're havinga great day today.
Hey, today's a really special day because it is May 13th,
(00:22):
2025, which means that today is the podcast 2nd anniversary.
So happy birthday to Improv and Magic and thanks to all of you
for supporting this show for these past two years.
And if your birthday is also on May 13th, well then happy
birthday to you as well. I can think of no better way to
(00:46):
celebrate our 2nd anniversary then with today's special guest.
My guest is the leading female illusionist of today with a huge
international presence and a true trailblazer in magic.
Today's guest is Josephine Lee. Josephine's fresh, modern spin
(01:07):
has revolutionized the world of magic ever since her appearance
on Britain's Got Talent, and after getting millions of views
overnight, she's catapulted herself to stages all over the
world and has become recognized as a leading figure in magic.
Her work has taken her to hundreds of prestigious theaters
and arenas worldwide, and her talent has earned her the
(01:30):
opportunity to perform for esteemed individuals like Prince
Albert of Monaco, Stella McCartney, Kate Moss, and
Jermaine Jackson. One of Josephine's proudest
achievements is being one of thefirst women to ever perform
magic in Saudi Arabia. She's one of the most talked
about women in magic and has been featured on various
(01:52):
television shows like Britain's Got Talent, Masters of Illusion,
The Next Great Magician, and Penn and Teller Fool Us, among
many others. She has also completed three
incredible seasons in the heart of London's West End and toured
50 cities across China in just four months.
(02:14):
It was such a wonderful experience for me to get to know
Josephine Lee. She was very kind to share
stories about her life and her creative process.
There's so many great takeaways from this conversation that
performers everywhere can definitely benefit from.
So now, on the 2nd anniversary episode of Improv and Magic, I'm
(02:35):
very happy to present my guest, Josephine Lee.
Well, my friends, this is such apleasure and an honor because I
(02:56):
have joining me today on improv and magic.
She is the leading female illusionist today.
She is the amazing Josephine Lee.
Hello, Josephine. So happy you're here today.
Hello, I'm super excited to be here as well.
It's a pleasure to meet you and I'm excited to to see what the
next hour or so brings. I understand you just had a big
(03:19):
trip to the Mediterranean, is that true?
Yes, we were. We've been working on a cruise
ship for the past almost two years now, on and off.
And we just finished the European season and then headed
over to the Caribbean for winter, which I'm not
complaining about at all becausethese cold winters in England
definitely, definitely are not the one.
(03:40):
How cold does it get over there in England?
I've never been but I heard it gets pretty cold over there.
It gets very, very cold. It's actually, it's slightly
milder than it used to be, whichis a little bit concerning, but
it gets very dark very early. I think it's by 4:00 we're we're
pretty much at pitch black, which is not not very exciting
and it's not very good for the soul, I don't think.
(04:02):
Yeah, it's funny. I'm in South Florida and for us
cold is 60. You poor thing, must be a
terrible, terrible way to live down there.
Oh yeah, so horrible. It's funny, I remember one of
the first times I visited my brother-in-law who lives in
Minnesota, and we went there in December and it was like 12
inches of snow. And I was like, this is awesome.
(04:24):
And he was like, yeah, you love it, 'cause you don't live here
all the time. I remember the first time I went
to America, I was about 19 and Florida was the first stop and I
stood outside the hotel and it rained and the rain was warm.
And I just couldn't believe because coming from England,
rain is just so miserable. And I couldn't believe I was
stood outside in hot rain and I was just like, this is amazing.
(04:48):
We need to live here. Yeah, I always like to joke
around that we do get snow in Florida, but because it's so
hot, it just melts on the way down.
I wish it did that here. Unfortunately, it doesn't know.
Well, we're going to begin, as we always begin, on improv and
magic. Where did you grow up and what
was growing up like for you, Josephine?
(05:09):
Growing up for me was very interesting because I come from
a family where my father is British, my mother is Hungarian
and we travelled a lot with my father's job whilst I was
growing up. So I was constantly in and out
of different schools around the world, making new friends from
all over the world when we couldhave a friend and then the next
(05:32):
week they'd be gone because their parents got moved to a
different country. So it was a very exciting life.
As I got a bit older, I think I struggled a bit with the
constant change. But as I've become older, I've
really started to realize that Iwas, I was quite blessed with
experiencing so many different ways of life from such a young
age. I've had the.
(05:53):
Opportunity to speak to other people who like you, were
constantly moving around a lot and always had to develop this
chameleon like personality wherethey always had to adapt.
Was that a difficult thing for you to do, to always have to
adapt everywhere you went? I think growing up as a child I
was quite shy, so I found it quite hard to integrate into new
(06:17):
friendship groups and I always had a lot of friends but I never
felt like I was really settled in a friendship group.
And even now, now that I'm in my30s, I've got friends from all
over the world. I don't necessarily have a big
friendship group that we're all included in.
I have friends in America, I have friends in in Europe that
(06:41):
that's spread all around the world, which is great when you
want to travel and you've got you've got somewhere to stay
everywhere. You've got a room in every
country. But I think moving forward and
kind of flash forward to now, I think it would be really nice to
have a a friendship group that you grew up with.
(07:02):
And I often see other people whohave that and I'm often quite
envious of that. But I'm very, very grateful for
the life that I've had, for sure.
When you were growing up, did you have any interest back then
of becoming a performer? Yes, absolutely.
That was from. I think I can even think back to
when I was about four or five years old and I used to put on
(07:23):
these shows for my grandparents.So that has always, always been
in my DNA. I've always wanted to perform.
And interestingly, as I mentioned, I was very shy as a
child, but as soon as you put meon stage, it was just like I, I
woke up. So yes, absolutely not magic
though. Never magic.
(07:43):
I was never actually introduced to magic.
So I, I was never aware that that was, that was an industry.
I always performed dancing and singing and acting.
So what were you hoping would bethe path for you as you look
forward for the rest of your life, as most kids do?
I wanted to be a ballerina that was set in stone from probably
(08:06):
about six or seven years old. And then I actually trained all
the way into my 20s as a ballerina.
And now I'm ever so grateful that I did find Magic because
I'm still now in my 30s and I'm still performing, which for a
ballerina is almost unheard of. I think I can maybe think of a
handful of people in the world who are still performing at my
(08:30):
age. So I'm incredibly grateful that
Magic has given me the opportunity to to continue to
perform, just in a different artform.
Yeah, it's interesting. There are certain things in
performing arts where it it's a short shelf life and I know with
with ballet it's very much the same thing.
Once you reach a certain age, ifyou haven't done it already,
(08:52):
that's it. Was that something that sort of
a worried you going into ballet?I think when you're younger, you
don't think about it because you've just got such a strong
passion for something that you're just, you're driven by
that passion and you don't really think of the
consequences. But I've often thought when I
have children, if I have a daughter and she wants to do
(09:12):
ballet, would would I maybe recommend that she goes into a
different career path? If there's any other passion out
there that she might have, I think I would probably propel
her more to that. It's, it's a beautiful industry
to be in and to be a part of, but there are very, very few who
(09:34):
actually really, really make it.And even when you make a ballet
company, you have about 30 or 40ensemble dancers, but there is
only one principal ballerina. So when you think of the the
chances of actually being that one principal, it's, it's quite
slim. It's kind of like that movie
Black Swan. Exactly, and I don't want to be
(09:56):
biting off my nails. Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, you touched upon something that always fascinates
me, and it fascinates me especially because I'm the exact
same way, the idea of being veryshy around people.
But as soon as you put me on stage, it's like the switch got
turned on, you know? Do you find that that's a common
(10:16):
thing for people, that they are more shy off stage than they are
on stage? It's interesting because I've
often, I've often wondered this myself.
I'm, I would actually say that Iwas more of an introvert than an
extrovert. And I am the first to, to pick
up a book and be in bed by 7:00 PM.
(10:38):
And in this industry, as you know, it's it's a very social
industry and most people come tolife in the evening.
Everyone goes out for a drink after the show, whereas I would
much rather be in bed with a book.
And it's, it's very interesting to see the different characters
(11:00):
that are drawn to this industry.And I think it is a real mix.
But a lot of creatives I do finddo like to spend time on their
own. And I've always found it so
fascinating that it's almost like you have a lot of people
have split personality, but not in a bad way, in a good way that
(11:22):
they almost become their alter ego at night when they come to,
you know, they arrive on stage, which I think is such a
fascinating thing. And I'd really like to study the
psychology around how how that works, you know, how how what's
happening in the brain for this person who's quite shy, so all
of a sudden become larger than life.
(11:43):
I think it's very interesting. Other than dance and ballet,
what were some of the things that you were influenced by as
you were growing up? I was very influenced by music.
I think when you when you go to ballet school, we have the
maestro and he's playing piano the whole way through your
class. So I was around live music from
(12:06):
a very, very young age, and evennow when I create acts, I often
visualize them to music before Ieven really know what they are.
I can almost kind of see something that's happening on
stage, but I feel it instead of actually breaking down the
concept of what that act is going to be.
Well, now we get to the big question.
(12:29):
How did magic come into your life?
Magic came into my life through an amazing man called Hans
Clock, who I'm sure you must be familiar with.
He's a Dutch magician. He is.
He holds the record for being the fastest magician in the
world, and he is one of the friendliest human beings on this
(12:51):
planet. He's got such a good song.
And I was a dancer in one of hisshows back many, many, many
years ago. And he had three main assistants
who had worked with them for 20 years plus they they were a
family and one of them was leaving and he needed a
replacement. And we'd gotten very, very well
(13:14):
during this tour that we'd done.So he asked if I'd be interested
in moving out to Amsterdam just for three months just to see if
I enjoyed the job. And after three months I, I just
didn't want to leave and I endedup staying 8 years.
I just became completely hooked on on the adrenaline and it was
such a, such a different world for me to experience.
(13:34):
It was almost coming into this world of variety and cabaret,
whereas I'd only ever really experienced ballets and
musicals. And it was such a kick.
It was, it was such a great industry to be involved with.
And also just those reactions that you'd, you'd get from
magic, those, those moments where you'd pop out of a box and
(13:58):
you'd hear the audience gasp. It was something so new to me.
And it became really like, almost like a drug.
Like I, I craved this feeling of, of this adrenaline on stage
and especially working with him because he was the fastest
magician in the world. It wasn't like I was just
standing there bringing on tables.
We were really doing quite Incredibles.
(14:19):
They were almost stunts really, and I just got hooked.
That was it. There was no way back, no way
back for me. Before you teamed up with Hans
Klok, what was your opinion about magic in general?
I will be honest, I really had no I'd never been introduced to
magic at all. So when I did start working for
(14:41):
Hans, I was also quite withdrawnfrom the Magic community because
we, he has such a big team that we didn't really integrate so
much in the Magic world. He himself did, but the rest of
the team we didn't. We were just part of this
family, part of this product andwe just focused on on our act.
(15:05):
So it wasn't really until after I started working, I finished
working with hands and I startedlooking into Magic and
performing myself. I actually started realising
that there was a whole world outthere that I had no idea about.
And at first I felt incredibly intimidated by it because it was
(15:26):
so vast and all these people or these magicians had been
performing their entire lives from, you know, the age of 10
years old. And then I turned up and I'm
like, I might just see if I can give this a go because I like
it. And I felt quite intimidated
because I didn't really know howI would be received.
But I've actually been very lucky.
(15:47):
I've met some incredibly credible people in the industry,
people who have really helped me.
And without them, I I wouldn't be still performing as I am
today. So yeah.
When you started learning magic on your own, did you go the
traditional route that most people do, which is like
learning with the card tricks and close up magic?
(16:09):
Absolutely not. I'm still not now and I probably
should have started there, but somehow I haven't.
I'm I still laugh. My husband still laughs at me.
He often asks if I can do a cardtrick and then just laughs in my
face because he knows I probablywon't be able to do 1.
What a cruel thing to. Do I know?
I know. But he's allowed to because he's
(16:30):
my husband. I don't think any.
I'd think I'd be quite bruised if someone else did.
I when I first started doing magic, I felt that I was too,
too far behind to try and catch up on the Hodgins and, you know,
all these incredible card manipulators that I would just
(16:51):
be wasting my time. And I still feel like to that to
this day. And of course I can do a couple
of card tricks, but there's no point in me trying to, to try
and catch up with people who would practice thousands of
hours. So I decided from the very
beginning that I was going to try and focus on what my
strengths were and to build a persona around what I knew I was
(17:13):
good with. And that was of course the
illusions because I'd, I'd learnt that with Hans and I, I
really understood them. I understood how to, to use them
correctly, how you know how to put them to music to create an
act. So I started there and then the
past few years I've started putting full shows together.
(17:35):
So for a very long time I just had a magic act.
And then I realized that that was actually really holding me
back. If I had a full show, how much
more I could offer. So the past few years I've been
putting shows together and that's forced me to try and dive
deeper into the more of the art of magic.
And I've really, really enjoyed myself and, and often I kick
(17:59):
myself now because I think why did I wait so long?
There's so much out there and it's so exciting.
And I think a lot of that was probably slight intimidation.
You know, you, you see how incredible people are.
And I just felt how on earth am I going to catch up with with
all these hours? But I think I found my own, my
(18:22):
own path through magic now, and I and I, I'm following that.
Well, I think one of the great things about your performance is
that you definitely keep your show looking very, very modern.
Your illusion show, it doesn't feel like an old time illusion
show from like the 80s and or 90s even.
It definitely feels like a very modern show.
(18:44):
What do you do to keep your showlooking and feeling modern?
That's really interesting you said that.
I'm actually really pleased you said that because I really
focused hard on on trying to achieve that on.
I think it's trying to stay up to date with with what's
happening. And I'll be honest, a lot of
(19:04):
that has actually come in the past few years because I did
shows in London and I read a lotof the reviews, which I probably
shouldn't have done. And now I've learnt not to read
refuse because they can be quitesoul destroying sometimes.
But a lot of those reviews commented on the fact that, oh,
(19:27):
she should, she should be in Vegas.
This isn't a a very modern magiclook.
This is this is for a Vega show.And it was always she was very,
you know, she's not wearing much.
She's trying to show off her figure.
And I always felt that I, I really wanted to focus on trying
(19:49):
to change that. That was really important to me,
that I wasn't viewed as the girlwho just jumps out of boxes
wearing very little, trying to show off her physique.
And she's the blonde, the, the blonde dumb girl who jumps out
of the boxes. It was so essential to me that I
changed that idea of who I was. So the past few years I've
(20:12):
really focused on on. Updating what I think a magic
show looks like. And I think that for me, that's
so, you know, you've got this whole era now of Taylor Swift,
you've got Beyoncé out there, you've got these huge pop stars,
but there's no pop star of magic.
And I think that that is becausemagic hasn't really kept up to
(20:35):
date with with the world. We're still performing a lot of
old tricks and we've moved on. The world's moved on, society's
moved on. Our topics, our conversations.
We live in an entirely differentworld now, but no one's really
highlighting that in magic. So that's what I've been
focusing on the past year, actually, is writing a new show
(20:58):
at the moment about the topics of today's society.
Magic for now, like new magic. What does that look like?
So I'm pleased you said that. Thank you.
You're very welcome. You know, it's funny, throughout
magic history, you see these important figures who are the
ones that dare to say we need toupdate this, we need to make
(21:18):
this modern. And you can definitely trace
that all the way back to Robert Houdin.
Then you could say eventually itwas Houdini, then Doug heading,
then Copperfield, and then maybeeven Chris Angel and David
Blaine. And it's refreshing for me to
see Someone Like You who says, you know what, let's not do it
the old way anymore. Let's do something new.
(21:38):
Let's do something that reflectsthe world that we are in today.
Absolutely. And I think I might feel
slightly stronger about the ideaof this because I know that
there's very few women in magic and I know that the women that
are eyes are on us, people are are watching to see what we do.
(22:01):
And I feel that over the past few years, I've really had to
try and define what's what does a female magician look like?
Because there's not many out there.
And I'm sure it's the same with all magicians.
Everyone has different acts thatare definitely other female
magicians out there who are doing incredible things, but
they're not quite how I view my magic to be.
(22:26):
And defining this character has had to make me delve a lot
deeper into what this actually means for me and for a future of
other women who who would like to to have a career in magic.
And I've met a lot of younger, younger female magicians who are
(22:48):
in their teens who are interested, who have actually
approached me and said, what do I wear?
I'd like to do this trick, but Idon't know how.
Where do I fit it? How do I fit this into, you
know, I'd really like to wear a skirt or a dress, but I don't
quite know where to, to hide allthese things.
And these are all things that I had to try and answer for
(23:08):
myself. So I think that's why for me,
it's a very important goal of mine to try and define what this
modern female magician who wishing What does she look like?
What does she do? What does her show look like?
How has she changed from the assistant to now be the
magician? What does that mean for the
illusions? All these questions are things
(23:30):
that I've really had to try and figure out over the past few
years. Well, it really is wonderful to
see that we have been in this sort of renaissance, if you
will, of more women coming out and finally saying, you know
what, I want to be the magician.You get in the box.
And, you know, I remember there was a time like early on where
(23:51):
women back in like the 30s and 40s, they were referred to as
box jumpers, which just sounds so demeaning, really.
What do you think has caused this new renaissance of more
women coming out like yourself and taking the stage?
I think before I answer that, I actually like to, I think you
(24:13):
might be surprised with what I'mabout to say, but I you say it's
demeaning for that. We were called box jumpers, but
we lived in a time where people didn't really know any
different. And especially when I started
performing magic, I was so excited to be the assistant.
I thought, oh, how wonderful. I'm going to look like the
(24:34):
glamorous assistant, you know, Debbie McGee or, or, or the
others that came before us. And I never saw it as demeaning.
And I think I sometimes think it's, it's it's slightly harsh
to look back at the world of magic and think that these
magicians were undermining womenand making them fit in these
(24:58):
boxes and, and cut them in half because I think we knew no
different and the women enjoyed it.
I think what has happened is that as women, we have grown and
the world has changed around us.Women have way more rights now,
which is absolutely incredible. And we think, well, actually, I
(25:20):
also have, I have ideas. I have ideas for a show that I
would like maybe like to do or you know, I'd like to be define
this new character. And we are allowed to do that.
I often hear, you know, so oftenthat well, you know, there's not
many females in magic. No, there's not.
(25:41):
But if you want to do it, come out there and do it.
No one's stopping you. I mean, I've had so much support
from so many people and I think it's important that we stop
talking about this narrative of these poor women that used to
get cut in half and just focus on moving forward and and
bringing the younger generation into magic.
(26:04):
It is quite an accolade to be known as the leading female
illusionist of today. Does that ever get intimidating
for you to kind of have that title attached to you?
Yes, all. The time, all the time.
I, I think it I sometimes no, not sometimes.
I very often question myself very, very often.
(26:26):
And I think a lot of other artists do exactly the same.
And I've seen a lot of people come across as incredibly
confident, but behind closed doors had conversations where I
realise, OK, actually there's confidence is just a persona.
But we all have these doubts that, you know, are we good
enough? Are we doing the right thing?
What are the people going to think?
(26:47):
And this title that I've been given is definitely very
intimidating, but I I've actually instead of seeing it as
intimidating, I've used it to drive myself forward to almost
see it as you have no choice. If if you are going to be the
(27:09):
worst eating female illusionist,you better get on with it and
just figure it out and try and be that person.
So I think it's also been good to to motivate me.
People who listen to this podcast will know that I love
asking magicians, this particular question in
particular because it's also an improv question.
I like to ask the question abouthow much of you gets presented
(27:32):
on stage, because often times when we present ourselves on
stage, we present a character insome way, shape or form.
Some will say what I'm showing you is 100% me, some will say
well it's sort of 5050 and some will say it's not me at all.
For you, how much of Josephine do we see in your performance?
(27:53):
I think in the past year and a half, maybe 2 years, people are
starting to see the real, the real me.
So as I mentioned before, when Istarted doing Magic, after I did
Britain's Got Talent, I only hada number of acts and these acts
kept getting booked and they're all silent acts, they're all to
music. So I didn't really ever get the
(28:14):
chance to to really be me. It was always a performance.
Whereas the past few years I've actually started writing my own
material and being brave enough to to start putting myself into
into the show. And since I've been doing that,
I've actually found performing considerably easier.
(28:34):
And it's been really interestingto to have that realization of
that actually, you don't need topretend to be anyone.
You just need to be yourself, but a little bit bigger.
And the audience's reaction and the way you can connect with an
audience is it's actually quite overwhelming.
(28:54):
Once you when you get that connection and you think, Oh my
gosh, they actually, maybe they do like me.
Maybe it's not just the whole big music and big props.
And that's a really powerful feeling.
Very, very powerful. Other than the top leading
female illusionist, what would you say you want your audiences
to think of you? I would like them to feel like
(29:20):
I'm a good person. That is really, really important
to me. It's actually really
interesting. I'm slightly off topic, but a
very good friend of mine is is very much into the 16
personalities. I don't know if you've heard
about it, but basically there's sixteen types of personalities
in the world and you can do a personality test and anyone
(29:42):
who's listening, I think the website is 16 personalities.com.
You do this test, it takes about20 minutes.
You answer all these questions about yourself and then it tells
you the type of personality thatyou are.
And it gives you a bit of a description about how you about
you, how you handle situations, your interactions with other
people, you know, how you deal with things in life.
(30:06):
And I was incredibly shocked at how accurate my personality was.
And the number one thing on there was honesty and doing
right. And for me that really struck,
struck a chord because it is very important to me to to be a
good person. And I think it's and recently
(30:28):
started using my show to portraymessages to, to make people feel
good and to really leave the show thinking, you know, leaving
them with a topic that makes them go home and think, oh,
actually, maybe I can do this. Or maybe what if I view view
this situation in a different way?
I read a lot of self help books.I hate that they call them self
(30:50):
help. They should call them like
motivational books or self discovery books.
Not self help, but a lot of those books that I've read over
the years and have helped me, I now want to put into a show that
will help other people. You know, that certainly has
become a bigger trend within thelast 20 or 30 years in magic,
(31:10):
where it's no longer just here'sa trick that will fool you.
It's now more of here's a trick that's going to make you
experience something or make youlearn something.
And I love the idea of a magician who can focus on not
just what the audience sees or hears, but what the audience
feels. Is that definitely true for you?
(31:31):
Absolutely. And I've really studied this
over the past few years because especially with all these AGTTV
shows and talent contests and things, I've really looked at
like, who is it? Who's striking A chord with the
audience and why? And it's always because they
make them feel something. And even when I watch a show as
(31:54):
well, I mean, I cry almost everyday.
My husband laughs at me. But if I haven't cried by the
end of the day, then something'sdefinitely wrong.
I'm quite, I feel a lot and I think when you watch these TV
shows, it's always because there's a story, either a
background story or someone sings a song and those words in
(32:14):
that song resonate with, with you for some reason.
And that's that, that makes you feel something and a lot of
magic and a lot of magicians. I It's interesting to see the
people that I enjoy watching arealways, not necessarily because
of the magic trick, but it's what they've taught me.
(32:35):
They've taught me something, or they've made me think something,
or they've made me question something.
But often it's got nothing to dowith the magic.
The magic is just a little addedbonus on the end, but it's
actually the story, and that's incredibly hard to achieve with
magic. I often think it's much easier
for singers because music reallyresonates with people and it
(32:58):
really hits hard on the soul. Whereas with magic, how do you
make someone feel the same feeling they do when they listen
to music? Well, of course we all remember
you from your performance on Britain's Got Talent.
Can you talk about what that experience is like?
How did that opportunity come about and what were some of your
fond memories of being on the show?
(33:22):
I don't know if I'd say they were fond, They were stressful.
I had. I was in a magic show in London
with the winner of BGTI, can't remember what year it was.
His name is Richard Jones, really, really lovely guy.
And he had won the show and theyput him into our show Impossible
in in West End. And the producers came to watch
(33:44):
him in the show. And during that show they, they
obviously saw me. And afterwards they called to
say we've seen you in Impossible.
We'd love to put you on Britain's Got Talent.
And I, the first thing I thoughtwas, Oh no, I don't have
anything good enough. You know, I've not been doing
this for very long. I just, all the self doubt just
(34:05):
came flooding in and then I realised that, you know, I
really had nothing to lose. Like I didn't really have an act
at the time, but if I could create one it might change my
life. If it goes wrong, it doesn't
work out. Then no one knew who I was
anyway, so I had a lot of help. I was working with a guy called
Jonathan Goodwin at the time. He helped me with creating the
(34:27):
ACT for Britain's Got Talent on the show.
The actual the first time that I'd ever got the illusion right
was during the live filming. So the whole lead up to it, it
had just not worked. Everything that could have gone
wrong went completely wrong. I didn't have much money at the
(34:48):
time so I couldn't really for expensive rehearsal space, and
this prop was huge and the setupfor that was absolutely insane.
So nothing was really on my sideat all.
But somehow the universe did well and they made it go right
that one time. And then after that all the work
came flooding in from, you know,shows that I didn't even know
(35:10):
existed. But my issue was, was that I
only had one act. So I'd gone on to this show.
I did 2 acts I think and I remember in the third, the the
final, I remember being stood onstage when they announced who's
going round to the final and I just kept thinking please don't
pick me, please don't pick me, please don't pick me because I
(35:30):
had no third act. I was like the show's the next
week and I don't have anything to do.
And so it did exactly what I wanted it to do.
It gave me exposure and it brought in all the work.
But then I didn't have this hugepressure of having to come up
with a final for the show. But because I only had a couple
(35:51):
of acts, people were sending these emails saying we'd love to
book you for your two hour show and God knows where.
And I couldn't take any of the work because how on earth was I
going to put together 2 hours ofmaterial in like 2 weeks?
So as amazing as it was for my ego, I just couldn't.
(36:12):
I wasn't equipped to do what people were asking.
So unfortunately, as amazing as the experience was, I didn't use
it to its full potential becauseI just wasn't prepared enough.
I had no idea that that was going to be this whole big
explosion of, you know, his workfor the next 5 years.
(36:33):
So it's a bit of a shame becauseI really wish that if I had done
it now, I would have been so much well, well equipped to
really ride that wave of, you know, that those TV shows do
give you. But it, it, it did me well.
I worked for for a long time. And it's incredible how those
shows run your career so long. I mean, it was nearly seven
(36:57):
years ago and people still e-mail me to say we've seen your
video on YouTube. Can we book your act?
And you just think, wow, you know, how, how after seven years
is it still getting millions of views?
So it's a very powerful, powerful entertainment factory.
I like to call it to be in, not to be involved in.
You know what's really funny to me?
(37:17):
I've had the opportunity to speak to a couple of other
people that were on Britain's Got Talent and they kind of have
the same response as you did. I got to talk to Colin Cloud and
I got to talk to a Chloe Crawford and they all said the
same thing. They were invited to come and
their first instinct was to turnit down because they were like,
well, I don't have enough acts for this yet.
(37:39):
They decided to just jump into it without having anything and
just taking that risk. Is that a good way to sort of
describe you? Are you the type of person that
will just jump into something not knowing whether or not this
is going to work? I think I my dad always taught
me just say yes and figure out afterwards, which I've I've kind
(38:01):
of lived by that rule. But unluckily I've never let
anyone down. I've always stuck to my word and
managed to produce, you know, good shows.
I, it's interesting because I'vebeen asked to do America's Got
Talent pretty much for seven years, which, you know, after I
did Britain's Got Talent, they, they e-mail every year.
(38:23):
And I've been very, very cautious because I now
understand how powerful that show can be if you execute it
correctly and if you're preparedand you've got everything in
place afterwards. So you've got the production
company, they're ready to take you on tour straight afterwards.
You know, you've got you've got a team of people to push you
(38:45):
forward. So I think sometimes naivety can
be a very good thing. But once you've experienced it,
it's hard to just throw yourselfback into it with that mindset
of, oh, let's see what happens. Of all of your performances on
Britain's Got Talent, I have to say the one that's my absolute
(39:06):
favorite is the one with the three orbs that appear in the in
the box. And the reason why I loved it is
because it's a very unique variation of an older trick,
which I'm sure most magicians will of course recognize.
What was the inspiration for that routine?
So as I mentioned, Jonathan Goodwin really helped drive that
(39:29):
act and really bring it to life.He, he initially came up with
the concept and I, I remember I first said to him, oh, that that
won't work, That wouldn't look good.
And he was like, yeah, it will, you should try it.
So I kind of took the idea and, and made it my own.
And at the time, Maleficent, themovie, the Disney movie was, was
(39:53):
quite a big hit. And I thought it was so
incredible having this like powerful force of a woman just.
With, you know, one hand swipe, just moving cities and creating,
you know, just she disrupted everything.
And I love that concept of of moving powerful things around
(40:14):
the room. And that's that was kind of the
inspiration for that act. Do you find it difficult to top
yourself? Oh my gosh, yes.
Do you know, it's so interestingbecause as I mentioned, Jonathan
helped me with that act at the beginning.
And then a lot of people say, oh, I've never really seen
anything like that before. And then you, you have this
(40:37):
expectation of yourself. Well, then everything I create
has to be something that no one's ever seen before.
And for a long time that really stunted my growth as a performer
because I every idea that I cameup with, I was like, well, it's
not good enough as the floating ball or it, you know, it's not
as different. It, it looks too similar to
something else. And I've really had to let go of
(41:00):
that because I realized that if you sit and wait for something
incredible to happen or an an amazing idea to just, you know,
pop out of your brain in the middle of the night, it's never
going to come. You have to just keep creating
and creating and creating. And then every now and again,
something amazing will pop up. And you think, oh, that could
(41:22):
work, but it is hard. It's very, very hard to to
create new material that that noone else has done before.
You know, there are a lot of performers, magicians,
improvisers, actors who are plagued by that feeling of it's
still not good enough, You know,people who are like, I guess you
(41:43):
could say over perfectionist about everything.
Is it difficult to sort of satisfy yourself or are you good
with being able to say, Yep, it's good.
There's nothing else that we need to do with this.
No, I really struggle and I think a lot of people should
talk about it and I think we should all be quite open about
how we feel about it because there's nothing worse than
(42:04):
having these, you know, thoughtsof I'm not good enough, you
know, I could have done better. It's not quite right.
And seeing other people and thinking why can't I just not
care like them? And I have spent so much time,
you know, really, really questioning myself.
(42:27):
And it's such an awful feeling. It's really, really it's, it's,
it's pretty horrendous. And I think people do need to
support each other when it comesto creating.
And I often think that I love the magic community, but because
I have been involved in other communities within the arts such
(42:50):
as dancing, musicals, I've, it'svery apparent to me that
magicians don't often collaborate.
We don't really come together and think, right, let's let's
create an amazing act because a lot of magicians are creating
their own act. And if someone else or you know,
(43:13):
everyone else is doing their act, then that doesn't make them
unique anymore. And because these, because we
don't collaborate as a communityso much, it can often, it can
often make you question yourselfwhether you're good enough, and
that can be quite challenging. Why do you think magicians are
(43:34):
not too keen on collaborating with each other as you
described? I think when you're creating or
producing a show such as a musical, we're immediately in a
team and it's always been like that.
Before I did magic and I was working in the theatre on day
one, you're put with a group of 20-30 people and they're just
(43:55):
your family from day one, you know?
OK, we're going, we're all goingon this journey together for the
next 6 months. We're creating something special
and the more we individually putinto this, the better the result
is going to be for everyone involved.
Magic doesn't work like that because magicians are an
individual. So I think I, I, it's, it's hard
(44:20):
because you have these TV shows where people colour out,
collaborate and they come out with incredible products.
And you often have, you also have, you know, theatre shows
and magician where they'll they'll get a consultant on,
they'll get a writer on, they'llget directors involved and they
work as a team. But magicians at home creating
their own acts for their own performances.
(44:43):
A lot of the time they want to have the, what's it called, the
recognition for their performance.
And they can't achieve that if they say, there's been 10 other
people who helped me make this. So it's, it's an interesting
world to be involved in. But I've always said from the
very beginning that as an art form, I think magic would be so
(45:08):
much further on if magicians collaborated with each other.
You know, for the last five years, and I've shared this on
the show here before, the thing that I now have been telling
myself, and I found that it helps so much and it really
takes the pressure off with everything that I do.
I tell myself, you know what, LD, it doesn't have to be
(45:30):
perfect. It just has to be me.
That's really nice. And someone, I'm sure you've had
a David Brittland. He's an incredible writer and he
works. He used to write for Derren
Brown. He works a lot with Luis de
Matos and I did a TV show years ago with Luis de Matos.
It was his TV show Impossible, Impossible, which is I think is
(45:51):
impossible in Portuguese. And it didn't quite go right.
It was live TV and I think my shoe fell off halfway through an
illusion and I got really upset.And David could see how upset I
was and he came up to me and he said you don't need to be the
best, you just need to be working.
And it really, really stuck withme.
(46:14):
And I often wish that I just tattooed on my forehead.
So every time I looked in the mirror, I remembered that
because it's, it's such a nice thing to think, you know, I
don't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be 100%.
It just has to be good. And sometimes good is good
enough. But unfortunately, as, as, as
(46:35):
artists, I think everyone is striving to create next level
work and a lot of people strive their entire career to achieve
something unique and special that you know is going to leave
a bit of a legacy for them. And it can be tough, I think, on
a lot of people for sure. You've had the opportunity to
(46:55):
perform in some touring shows, You toured with Champions of
Magic and Illusionist 2 Point O,and now I know that you're
touring with your own show. Do you enjoy the tour lifestyle
or do you prefer to just have one set location?
As I've got old, I'm making myself sound really old.
I'm really not that old. I think I'm just an old soul.
(47:19):
But the past few years I've I'veobviously I've got married and
life is actually, life actually hasn't changed that much because
we're we're still travelling andwe're always together, which is
really nice. And I think I'm so lucky that
I've married someone who has a company online so he can
actually come with me, which I never thought was would ever be
(47:41):
possible. But I've slowed down a lot, I
think in my mind and being on tour late nights, you know,
always in the bar. I think as I've got to my 30s,
as I mentioned, I do like a goodbook.
So I feel like I think the one thing I've never had is is a
routine. I've never had a routine.
(48:03):
And as I've got a bit older, I'mstarting to slowly crave that.
So I think one set location would be very, very nice.
But I'm not lucky enough yet to to have experienced that.
You know what? You're going to be the first
person that I asked this question.
How good is it to have your husband as a support for you?
(48:25):
I think the past 3-4 years sinceI've had him, he has really
considerably pushed me forward in in this industry.
He is also a creative so having his eye on things.
He's a graphic designer so he creates all the graphics for the
show, which has really, really helped with this modern look.
(48:47):
He he's helped so much and I think when I first started doing
Magic, I was really on my own and I had these huge props.
I remember I ordered 1 Illusion and I, I stupidly ordered it to
my house because I just assumed that we could put it in the
corner. Yeah, you're laughing.
It was, it was almost like a comedy sketch.
And I lived on a High Street at the time.
(49:09):
And then this illusion turned upand it was just this huge, like
massive, like 3 by 3 metre flight case.
And I was just like, who's this for?
And he was like Josephine Lee. And I was like, where am I going
to put it? And I remember being stood on a
bloody High Street in the middleof London with this huge flight
case, just thinking, Oh my God, how, where am I going to put it?
(49:31):
And I had to deal with all of this stuff by myself.
And it just came. There were so many times that I
just thought, I don't know if I can do this anymore.
And then when I met him, he justkind of took over all the
logistics. He got a warehouse.
He was like, right, we're doing this, doing that.
This is, you know, how this is going to work.
I'm going to book the tickets and, and everything just became
(49:54):
so much easier to the point thatI just felt like I could just
focus on the performing side of things and creating.
So I'm ever so envious of these illusionists who have these huge
teams. It must be so nice just to be
able to worry about what you're actually doing on stage and all
the logistics of everything else.
(50:16):
At any point in time, have either of you ever thought about
including him in the act? He actually is.
So there is. Yeah, he actually is.
He'll laugh. So his name is Mike and we call
him Magic Mike in the show. He travels with me on the cruise
ship. And when I got the job on the
cruise ship, we, we, I knew thatI, I wanted him to come with me.
(50:41):
And the only way that we were going to make that possible was
if he, he was implemented into the show.
And he's such a great sport. Like, he's got his own
successful business, but he still gets on stage and he lets
me tie him up. I'm calling Magic Mike.
So he's the right trooper. But yeah.
And since he's been involved in the show, it's so nice because I
(51:04):
don't know any of the other couple of friends of ours who
would ever get to experience that.
And I think when we're when we're in our 90s, we'll look
back and we'll laugh about how we used to call him Magic Mike
on stage. Well, you've had the opportunity
to perform in big theaters and great stages and cruise ships.
And then of course, the pandemichappened, which of course shut
(51:26):
the entire world down. How did you manage to sort of
get through that time where people could not come to a
theatre, could not even leave their house?
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people went online and a lot of people
were doing Zoom shows and I was lucky enough to.
My husband does have a business and he has an online business
(51:47):
and he creates multimedia shows for, for corporate events and
those kind of transferred over to virtual.
So I kind of jumped on board at the time with that and started
producing content and shows for him.
And that kind of kicked off and we were really lucky that we
had, we had a very decent incomeduring COVID.
(52:08):
So I kind of completely switchedoff from magic.
And after COVID, I actually questioned whether or not I
wanted to go back to performing because I'd had two years where
I wasn't feeling anxious or I wasn't feeling stressed about,
you know, the next gig. Like we'd found, we'd found and
(52:31):
built this business where I didn't actually have to keep
performing anymore. And it made me realise how not
stressed I was when I was performing, but how I think as a
performer, we don't have a stable life.
We're constantly searching for the next gig or we're travelling
(52:53):
here, travelling there, coming up with new material.
It's a very busy, busy, busy life and it can take its toll, I
think. So having these two years where
all of a sudden I wasn't living this fast-paced life.
I got to the end of the two years and I was like, actually,
maybe I'm OK without doing it. But then I had an e-mail from
the producers of a show in London called Wonderville, which
(53:16):
was going to be similar to The Illusionist, and it was going to
open up in West End. And of course I got that e-mail
and I just thought, Oh my God, I've got to do it.
And then started performing. We went back during, I think it
was 2021, the summer of 2021. And during that show, the very
first week I tore my ACL in my knee.
(53:39):
I jumped off the sub trunk, my knee just snapped in half.
And I think having the two yearsof not being on stage, not
really exercising so much, I think my body was a bit weaker
than than I had realised. And then I had to have another
year off, I had to have surgery and I had to have knee
reconstruction. And during that year I realised
(54:01):
how badly I wanted to to be on stage.
And I think when it gets taken away from you, you realize how
much it means to you. And after that, I went into
Champions and Magic. And since then I've just been
pushing forward with work and just kind of going at it full
force because I've actually realized how I don't really know
(54:23):
any different. This is this is who I am.
And without it, I don't really know who I am.
Did you have any mental or emotional difficulty getting
back into performing? Yes, I really struggled with
confidence. I actually went to see a
hypnotist. I, I was panicking about getting
back on stage, about talking on stage.
(54:45):
And a friend of mine had said that they had been to see a
hypnotist while they own a danceschool and they had a lot of
students who had confidence issues and they'd sent the
students to the hypnotist and that they recommended that I
went to see him. So I had two sessions with him
and he actually changed my life.It was unbelievable how how he
(55:07):
just changed my mindset and that's actually given me the
confidence to put myself forwardnow and drive my career in in a
different path that I thought I was going to previously.
I think before I always questioned whether I could do
it, whereas now he said something to me in that session.
(55:30):
It really resonated with me. He was like, if everybody else
can do it, why couldn't you? And that was it.
And it was just like a light bulb moment.
And I was like, yeah, why couldn't I just need to put the
work in? So absolutely, I think everyone
did. After COVID, I spoke to a lot of
performers who really, really struggled getting back on stage.
It was intimidating. We've been sat at home for two
(55:51):
years and then all of a sudden you were supposed to be
exceptional in front of 2000 people.
It wasn't natural to anyone anymore.
A lot of times David Copperfieldtalks about how he worries about
that one lady in the front row who isn't smiling, and I know a
lot of performers have that sameattitude.
If they see that one person thatdoesn't look like they're
(56:14):
enjoying themselves, that's enough to crush them.
Do you worry about whether or not everyone in the audience is
having a good time? Yes, I am the worst for it.
Only a couple of weeks ago we did a show and I had a standing
ovation, but there were four people on the front row who
didn't stand up. And.
(56:35):
And it was probably like a a cultural thing.
I know in a lot of different countries around the world,
standing ovations aren't actually a thing.
And, and we got back to the, the, the bedroom and I was so
upset. And he was like, how did you not
see everybody else? He was like, why is it that four
people out of all the other hundreds of people bother you?
(56:58):
And it's true. It's it's, it's something that I
think we need to try to learn todeal with because you put these
expectations on yourself. And I think the hardest thing to
overcome is actually trying to deal with the expectations that
we give ourselves, not from anyone else.
(57:18):
I mean, if I never went back on stage, I don't think anyone
would really bat an eyelid. But for me, it would be like
I've let myself down. So I can definitely resonate
with that. Yeah, it's kind of like, as the
expression goes, being so far into the forest you can't see
the trees. Yes, exactly, exactly.
Very good slave. In 2023 you had this incredible
(57:42):
venue and I loved it because again, going back to what we
said earlier, it was a very modern looking venue and it, it
wasn't a traditional magician stage.
Typically on a, on a magic stage, you know, there's black
curtains and there's your typical proscenium stage.
But this was a very wide open space and a big LED screen
(58:02):
around the back. And it wasn't completely in the
round, but it was halfway there,which most, I'm sure most
magicians would be very afraid of because there's very, very
little to hide. How is that experience
performing in such a wide open space like that?
I think the hardest thing is that you have to accept that you
can't perform everything. So you might have some great
(58:25):
acts, but you just have to think, OK, they don't exist
because they won't work. And that can really be quite
upsetting because, you know, you're constantly going, I've
worked so hard on these acts andI know that they would improve
the show so much more, but you just can't use them.
But the way we viewed it was we had something that was so great,
(58:47):
which was the LED screens and the, the vastness of them.
You know, they just, they almostcompletely surround an audience
so you can create an immersive experience.
So it was instead of looking at what we can't use, what can we
use, what have we got that, you know, most venues would
absolutely die for. So we really focused on creating
(59:11):
content material driven acts. You know, how can we use the,
the content to, to tell these stories, to interact.
We actually recently integrated an, an AI act into the show
where we have an, and I have an AI assistant called Iris and
(59:33):
she, she does a magic trick on the audience.
And it was so well received and it was really interesting
because I wasn't on stage. We'd created an entire magic act
that was done through voice and content.
And it was so well received thatwe actually questioned, you
know, what does AI mean for us as performers?
(59:55):
If, if a, if a silly computer can create this reaction from an
audience without any of us on stage, you know, should, should
we be worried? But again, that goes back to the
beginning where I said, you know, really starting to focus
on creating material that's, that's relatable to what we're,
(01:00:17):
you know, the, the, the era thatwe're currently living in.
We live in a different world now, so.
Maybe we will be having AI assistance soon.
Is there anything you haven't accomplished yet that you're
hoping to achieve later on? Yeah, quite a few things, but
I'm keeping those close to my heart.
(01:00:37):
I feel like it's very, very important for the big, big
things that, you know, are, are really deep in the heart.
I think they're quite important to keep, keep close.
That's a saying, work hard and let your success, or was it in
the work hard and let your success speak for itself or
(01:00:57):
something. And I think, you know, there's
also another saying that empty barrels make the loudest noise.
And I think some people are veryquick to say, oh, I'm going to
be doing this. And it can put this intense
pressure on people to achieve it.
So yes, there absolutely are. There's quite a few, quite a few
things that I'm I'm working on at the moment.
(01:01:21):
When they happen, I'll let you know.
I'll send you an e-mail. This is one of them.
I look forward to that. I look forward to that.
Josephine, Here's the final question.
What's the one piece of advice that has served you well that
you'd want everyone else to hear?
(01:01:41):
BU I think that's so important because it's the easiest thing
for you to do is to just be yourself plus a little extra.
And I think when you're yourself, you connect with an
audience. You, you can, you can get across
(01:02:05):
whatever message you're trying to be, you know, to, to get
across to people when you are yourself.
But an audience can feel when you're not you, when you're
trying to be someone else, they feel it.
So I think that's really important to to be you.
Plus a little extra glitter. I love that.
A little extra glitter, I'm going to apply that.
(01:02:26):
Yeah. Josephine, I had such a great
time talking to you today. Thank you so much for being here
on Improv and Magic and I wish you all the best in your future
my friend. Thank you so much, it's been an
absolute pleasure. Yes, there's nothing better than
being yourself. We want to see you, we want to
(01:02:49):
hear you, we want to know you. You all hear me say this all the
time now and it's the perfect time to re emphasize this.
You are who you are and you are special.
I'd like to give a very special thank you to Josephine Lee for
joining us today. It was a true pleasure and honor
(01:03:10):
to get to know you my friend, and you will want to get to know
her as well. And you can.
Do that by visiting her website,josephinely.co.uk and if you're
lucky enough to meet Josephine, tell her LD says hi.
I'm also very happy to announce my brand new website.
(01:03:31):
Check out my new website, ldmadera.com.
You can find out more about the improv that I do, the magic that
I do. Of course, the podcast is also
on there. And you can also learn how I can
be your next master of ceremonies.
Again, that's ldmadera.com. Feel free to check it out and
feel free to get in touch. Thank you all, my friends, for
(01:03:55):
joining me on this special episode of Improv and Magic, and
thank you for these past two years of fun.
Cheers everybody. God bless you all and I'll see
you next time here on Improv andMagic.
Hello friends. Hello.
Hello my friends. Welcome once again to Improv and
Magic. I'm your host and your friend LD
Madera, and I hope you're havinga great day today.
Hey, today's a really special day because it is May 13th,
(00:22):
2025, which means that today is the podcast 2nd anniversary.
So happy birthday to Improv and Magic and thanks to all of you
for supporting this show for these past two years.
And if your birthday is also on May 13th, well then happy
birthday to you as well. I can think of no better way to
(00:46):
celebrate our 2nd anniversary then with today's special guest.
My guest is the leading female illusionist of today with a huge
international presence and a true trailblazer in magic.
Today's guest is Josephine Lee. Josephine's fresh, modern spin
(01:07):
has revolutionized the world of magic ever since her appearance
on Britain's Got Talent, and after getting millions of views
overnight, she's catapulted herself to stages all over the
world and has become recognized as a leading figure in magic.
Her work has taken her to hundreds of prestigious theaters
and arenas worldwide, and her talent has earned her the
(01:30):
opportunity to perform for esteemed individuals like Prince
Albert of Monaco, Stella McCartney, Kate Moss, and
Jermaine Jackson. One of Josephine's proudest
achievements is being one of thefirst women to ever perform
magic in Saudi Arabia. She's one of the most talked
about women in magic and has been featured on various
(01:52):
television shows like Britain's Got Talent, Masters of Illusion,
The Next Great Magician, and Penn and Teller Fool Us, among
many others. She has also completed three
incredible seasons in the heart of London's West End and toured
50 cities across China in just four months.
(02:14):
It was such a wonderful experience for me to get to know
Josephine Lee. She was very kind to share
stories about her life and her creative process.
There's so many great takeaways from this conversation that
performers everywhere can definitely benefit from.
So now, on the 2nd anniversary episode of Improv and Magic, I'm
(02:35):
very happy to present my guest, Josephine Lee.
Well, my friends, this is such apleasure and an honor because I
(02:56):
have joining me today on improv and magic.
She is the leading female illusionist today.
She is the amazing Josephine Lee.
Hello, Josephine. So happy you're here today.
Hello, I'm super excited to be here as well.
It's a pleasure to meet you and I'm excited to to see what the
next hour or so brings. I understand you just had a big
(03:19):
trip to the Mediterranean, is that true?
Yes, we were. We've been working on a cruise
ship for the past almost two years now, on and off.
And we just finished the European season and then headed
over to the Caribbean for winter, which I'm not
complaining about at all becausethese cold winters in England
definitely, definitely are not the one.
(03:40):
How cold does it get over there in England?
I've never been but I heard it gets pretty cold over there.
It gets very, very cold. It's actually, it's slightly
milder than it used to be, whichis a little bit concerning, but
it gets very dark very early. I think it's by 4:00 we're we're
pretty much at pitch black, which is not not very exciting
and it's not very good for the soul, I don't think.
(04:02):
Yeah, it's funny. I'm in South Florida and for us
cold is 60. You poor thing, must be a
terrible, terrible way to live down there.
Oh yeah, so horrible. It's funny, I remember one of
the first times I visited my brother-in-law who lives in
Minnesota, and we went there in December and it was like 12
inches of snow. And I was like, this is awesome.
(04:24):
And he was like, yeah, you love it, 'cause you don't live here
all the time. I remember the first time I went
to America, I was about 19 and Florida was the first stop and I
stood outside the hotel and it rained and the rain was warm.
And I just couldn't believe because coming from England,
rain is just so miserable. And I couldn't believe I was
stood outside in hot rain and I was just like, this is amazing.
(04:48):
We need to live here. Yeah, I always like to joke
around that we do get snow in Florida, but because it's so
hot, it just melts on the way down.
I wish it did that here. Unfortunately, it doesn't know.
Well, we're going to begin, as we always begin, on improv and
magic. Where did you grow up and what
was growing up like for you, Josephine?
(05:09):
Growing up for me was very interesting because I come from
a family where my father is British, my mother is Hungarian
and we travelled a lot with my father's job whilst I was
growing up. So I was constantly in and out
of different schools around the world, making new friends from
all over the world when we couldhave a friend and then the next
(05:32):
week they'd be gone because their parents got moved to a
different country. So it was a very exciting life.
As I got a bit older, I think I struggled a bit with the
constant change. But as I've become older, I've
really started to realize that Iwas, I was quite blessed with
experiencing so many different ways of life from such a young
age. I've had the.
(05:53):
Opportunity to speak to other people who like you, were
constantly moving around a lot and always had to develop this
chameleon like personality wherethey always had to adapt.
Was that a difficult thing for you to do, to always have to
adapt everywhere you went? I think growing up as a child I
was quite shy, so I found it quite hard to integrate into new
(06:17):
friendship groups and I always had a lot of friends but I never
felt like I was really settled in a friendship group.
And even now, now that I'm in my30s, I've got friends from all
over the world. I don't necessarily have a big
friendship group that we're all included in.
I have friends in America, I have friends in in Europe that
(06:41):
that's spread all around the world, which is great when you
want to travel and you've got you've got somewhere to stay
everywhere. You've got a room in every
country. But I think moving forward and
kind of flash forward to now, I think it would be really nice to
have a a friendship group that you grew up with.
(07:02):
And I often see other people whohave that and I'm often quite
envious of that. But I'm very, very grateful for
the life that I've had, for sure.
When you were growing up, did you have any interest back then
of becoming a performer? Yes, absolutely.
That was from. I think I can even think back to
when I was about four or five years old and I used to put on
(07:23):
these shows for my grandparents.So that has always, always been
in my DNA. I've always wanted to perform.
And interestingly, as I mentioned, I was very shy as a
child, but as soon as you put meon stage, it was just like I, I
woke up. So yes, absolutely not magic
though. Never magic.
(07:43):
I was never actually introduced to magic.
So I, I was never aware that that was, that was an industry.
I always performed dancing and singing and acting.
So what were you hoping would bethe path for you as you look
forward for the rest of your life, as most kids do?
I wanted to be a ballerina that was set in stone from probably
(08:06):
about six or seven years old. And then I actually trained all
the way into my 20s as a ballerina.
And now I'm ever so grateful that I did find Magic because
I'm still now in my 30s and I'm still performing, which for a
ballerina is almost unheard of. I think I can maybe think of a
handful of people in the world who are still performing at my
(08:30):
age. So I'm incredibly grateful that
Magic has given me the opportunity to to continue to
perform, just in a different artform.
Yeah, it's interesting. There are certain things in
performing arts where it it's a short shelf life and I know with
with ballet it's very much the same thing.
Once you reach a certain age, ifyou haven't done it already,
(08:52):
that's it. Was that something that sort of
a worried you going into ballet?I think when you're younger, you
don't think about it because you've just got such a strong
passion for something that you're just, you're driven by
that passion and you don't really think of the
consequences. But I've often thought when I
have children, if I have a daughter and she wants to do
(09:12):
ballet, would would I maybe recommend that she goes into a
different career path? If there's any other passion out
there that she might have, I think I would probably propel
her more to that. It's, it's a beautiful industry
to be in and to be a part of, but there are very, very few who
(09:34):
actually really, really make it.And even when you make a ballet
company, you have about 30 or 40ensemble dancers, but there is
only one principal ballerina. So when you think of the the
chances of actually being that one principal, it's, it's quite
slim. It's kind of like that movie
Black Swan. Exactly, and I don't want to be
(09:56):
biting off my nails. Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, you touched upon something that always fascinates
me, and it fascinates me especially because I'm the exact
same way, the idea of being veryshy around people.
But as soon as you put me on stage, it's like the switch got
turned on, you know? Do you find that that's a common
(10:16):
thing for people, that they are more shy off stage than they are
on stage? It's interesting because I've
often, I've often wondered this myself.
I'm, I would actually say that Iwas more of an introvert than an
extrovert. And I am the first to, to pick
up a book and be in bed by 7:00 PM.
(10:38):
And in this industry, as you know, it's it's a very social
industry and most people come tolife in the evening.
Everyone goes out for a drink after the show, whereas I would
much rather be in bed with a book.
And it's, it's very interesting to see the different characters
(11:00):
that are drawn to this industry.And I think it is a real mix.
But a lot of creatives I do finddo like to spend time on their
own. And I've always found it so
fascinating that it's almost like you have a lot of people
have split personality, but not in a bad way, in a good way that
(11:22):
they almost become their alter ego at night when they come to,
you know, they arrive on stage, which I think is such a
fascinating thing. And I'd really like to study the
psychology around how how that works, you know, how how what's
happening in the brain for this person who's quite shy, so all
of a sudden become larger than life.
(11:43):
I think it's very interesting. Other than dance and ballet,
what were some of the things that you were influenced by as
you were growing up? I was very influenced by music.
I think when you when you go to ballet school, we have the
maestro and he's playing piano the whole way through your
class. So I was around live music from
(12:06):
a very, very young age, and evennow when I create acts, I often
visualize them to music before Ieven really know what they are.
I can almost kind of see something that's happening on
stage, but I feel it instead of actually breaking down the
concept of what that act is going to be.
Well, now we get to the big question.
(12:29):
How did magic come into your life?
Magic came into my life through an amazing man called Hans
Clock, who I'm sure you must be familiar with.
He's a Dutch magician. He is.
He holds the record for being the fastest magician in the
world, and he is one of the friendliest human beings on this
(12:51):
planet. He's got such a good song.
And I was a dancer in one of hisshows back many, many, many
years ago. And he had three main assistants
who had worked with them for 20 years plus they they were a
family and one of them was leaving and he needed a
replacement. And we'd gotten very, very well
(13:14):
during this tour that we'd done.So he asked if I'd be interested
in moving out to Amsterdam just for three months just to see if
I enjoyed the job. And after three months I, I just
didn't want to leave and I endedup staying 8 years.
I just became completely hooked on on the adrenaline and it was
such a, such a different world for me to experience.
(13:34):
It was almost coming into this world of variety and cabaret,
whereas I'd only ever really experienced ballets and
musicals. And it was such a kick.
It was, it was such a great industry to be involved with.
And also just those reactions that you'd, you'd get from
magic, those, those moments where you'd pop out of a box and
(13:58):
you'd hear the audience gasp. It was something so new to me.
And it became really like, almost like a drug.
Like I, I craved this feeling of, of this adrenaline on stage
and especially working with him because he was the fastest
magician in the world. It wasn't like I was just
standing there bringing on tables.
We were really doing quite Incredibles.
(14:19):
They were almost stunts really, and I just got hooked.
That was it. There was no way back, no way
back for me. Before you teamed up with Hans
Klok, what was your opinion about magic in general?
I will be honest, I really had no I'd never been introduced to
magic at all. So when I did start working for
(14:41):
Hans, I was also quite withdrawnfrom the Magic community because
we, he has such a big team that we didn't really integrate so
much in the Magic world. He himself did, but the rest of
the team we didn't. We were just part of this
family, part of this product andwe just focused on on our act.
(15:05):
So it wasn't really until after I started working, I finished
working with hands and I startedlooking into Magic and
performing myself. I actually started realising
that there was a whole world outthere that I had no idea about.
And at first I felt incredibly intimidated by it because it was
(15:26):
so vast and all these people or these magicians had been
performing their entire lives from, you know, the age of 10
years old. And then I turned up and I'm
like, I might just see if I can give this a go because I like
it. And I felt quite intimidated
because I didn't really know howI would be received.
But I've actually been very lucky.
(15:47):
I've met some incredibly credible people in the industry,
people who have really helped me.
And without them, I I wouldn't be still performing as I am
today. So yeah.
When you started learning magic on your own, did you go the
traditional route that most people do, which is like
learning with the card tricks and close up magic?
(16:09):
Absolutely not. I'm still not now and I probably
should have started there, but somehow I haven't.
I'm I still laugh. My husband still laughs at me.
He often asks if I can do a cardtrick and then just laughs in my
face because he knows I probablywon't be able to do 1.
What a cruel thing to. Do I know?
I know. But he's allowed to because he's
(16:30):
my husband. I don't think any.
I'd think I'd be quite bruised if someone else did.
I when I first started doing magic, I felt that I was too,
too far behind to try and catch up on the Hodgins and, you know,
all these incredible card manipulators that I would just
(16:51):
be wasting my time. And I still feel like to that to
this day. And of course I can do a couple
of card tricks, but there's no point in me trying to, to try
and catch up with people who would practice thousands of
hours. So I decided from the very
beginning that I was going to try and focus on what my
strengths were and to build a persona around what I knew I was
(17:13):
good with. And that was of course the
illusions because I'd, I'd learnt that with Hans and I, I
really understood them. I understood how to, to use them
correctly, how you know how to put them to music to create an
act. So I started there and then the
past few years I've started putting full shows together.
(17:35):
So for a very long time I just had a magic act.
And then I realized that that was actually really holding me
back. If I had a full show, how much
more I could offer. So the past few years I've been
putting shows together and that's forced me to try and dive
deeper into the more of the art of magic.
And I've really, really enjoyed myself and, and often I kick
(17:59):
myself now because I think why did I wait so long?
There's so much out there and it's so exciting.
And I think a lot of that was probably slight intimidation.
You know, you, you see how incredible people are.
And I just felt how on earth am I going to catch up with with
all these hours? But I think I found my own, my
(18:22):
own path through magic now, and I and I, I'm following that.
Well, I think one of the great things about your performance is
that you definitely keep your show looking very, very modern.
Your illusion show, it doesn't feel like an old time illusion
show from like the 80s and or 90s even.
It definitely feels like a very modern show.
(18:44):
What do you do to keep your showlooking and feeling modern?
That's really interesting you said that.
I'm actually really pleased you said that because I really
focused hard on on trying to achieve that on.
I think it's trying to stay up to date with with what's
happening. And I'll be honest, a lot of
(19:04):
that has actually come in the past few years because I did
shows in London and I read a lotof the reviews, which I probably
shouldn't have done. And now I've learnt not to read
refuse because they can be quitesoul destroying sometimes.
But a lot of those reviews commented on the fact that, oh,
(19:27):
she should, she should be in Vegas.
This isn't a a very modern magiclook.
This is this is for a Vega show.And it was always she was very,
you know, she's not wearing much.
She's trying to show off her figure.
And I always felt that I, I really wanted to focus on trying
(19:49):
to change that. That was really important to me,
that I wasn't viewed as the girlwho just jumps out of boxes
wearing very little, trying to show off her physique.
And she's the blonde, the, the blonde dumb girl who jumps out
of the boxes. It was so essential to me that I
changed that idea of who I was. So the past few years I've
(20:12):
really focused on on. Updating what I think a magic
show looks like. And I think that for me, that's
so, you know, you've got this whole era now of Taylor Swift,
you've got Beyoncé out there, you've got these huge pop stars,
but there's no pop star of magic.
And I think that that is becausemagic hasn't really kept up to
(20:35):
date with with the world. We're still performing a lot of
old tricks and we've moved on. The world's moved on, society's
moved on. Our topics, our conversations.
We live in an entirely differentworld now, but no one's really
highlighting that in magic. So that's what I've been
focusing on the past year, actually, is writing a new show
(20:58):
at the moment about the topics of today's society.
Magic for now, like new magic. What does that look like?
So I'm pleased you said that. Thank you.
You're very welcome. You know, it's funny, throughout
magic history, you see these important figures who are the
ones that dare to say we need toupdate this, we need to make
(21:18):
this modern. And you can definitely trace
that all the way back to Robert Houdin.
Then you could say eventually itwas Houdini, then Doug heading,
then Copperfield, and then maybeeven Chris Angel and David
Blaine. And it's refreshing for me to
see Someone Like You who says, you know what, let's not do it
the old way anymore. Let's do something new.
(21:38):
Let's do something that reflectsthe world that we are in today.
Absolutely. And I think I might feel
slightly stronger about the ideaof this because I know that
there's very few women in magic and I know that the women that
are eyes are on us, people are are watching to see what we do.
(22:01):
And I feel that over the past few years, I've really had to
try and define what's what does a female magician look like?
Because there's not many out there.
And I'm sure it's the same with all magicians.
Everyone has different acts thatare definitely other female
magicians out there who are doing incredible things, but
they're not quite how I view my magic to be.
(22:26):
And defining this character has had to make me delve a lot
deeper into what this actually means for me and for a future of
other women who who would like to to have a career in magic.
And I've met a lot of younger, younger female magicians who are
(22:48):
in their teens who are interested, who have actually
approached me and said, what do I wear?
I'd like to do this trick, but Idon't know how.
Where do I fit it? How do I fit this into, you
know, I'd really like to wear a skirt or a dress, but I don't
quite know where to, to hide allthese things.
And these are all things that I had to try and answer for
(23:08):
myself. So I think that's why for me,
it's a very important goal of mine to try and define what this
modern female magician who wishing What does she look like?
What does she do? What does her show look like?
How has she changed from the assistant to now be the
magician? What does that mean for the
illusions? All these questions are things
(23:30):
that I've really had to try and figure out over the past few
years. Well, it really is wonderful to
see that we have been in this sort of renaissance, if you
will, of more women coming out and finally saying, you know
what, I want to be the magician.You get in the box.
And, you know, I remember there was a time like early on where
(23:51):
women back in like the 30s and 40s, they were referred to as
box jumpers, which just sounds so demeaning, really.
What do you think has caused this new renaissance of more
women coming out like yourself and taking the stage?
I think before I answer that, I actually like to, I think you
(24:13):
might be surprised with what I'mabout to say, but I you say it's
demeaning for that. We were called box jumpers, but
we lived in a time where people didn't really know any
different. And especially when I started
performing magic, I was so excited to be the assistant.
I thought, oh, how wonderful. I'm going to look like the
(24:34):
glamorous assistant, you know, Debbie McGee or, or, or the
others that came before us. And I never saw it as demeaning.
And I think I sometimes think it's, it's it's slightly harsh
to look back at the world of magic and think that these
magicians were undermining womenand making them fit in these
(24:58):
boxes and, and cut them in half because I think we knew no
different and the women enjoyed it.
I think what has happened is that as women, we have grown and
the world has changed around us.Women have way more rights now,
which is absolutely incredible. And we think, well, actually, I
(25:20):
also have, I have ideas. I have ideas for a show that I
would like maybe like to do or you know, I'd like to be define
this new character. And we are allowed to do that.
I often hear, you know, so oftenthat well, you know, there's not
many females in magic. No, there's not.
(25:41):
But if you want to do it, come out there and do it.
No one's stopping you. I mean, I've had so much support
from so many people and I think it's important that we stop
talking about this narrative of these poor women that used to
get cut in half and just focus on moving forward and and
bringing the younger generation into magic.
(26:04):
It is quite an accolade to be known as the leading female
illusionist of today. Does that ever get intimidating
for you to kind of have that title attached to you?
Yes, all. The time, all the time.
I, I think it I sometimes no, not sometimes.
I very often question myself very, very often.
(26:26):
And I think a lot of other artists do exactly the same.
And I've seen a lot of people come across as incredibly
confident, but behind closed doors had conversations where I
realise, OK, actually there's confidence is just a persona.
But we all have these doubts that, you know, are we good
enough? Are we doing the right thing?
What are the people going to think?
(26:47):
And this title that I've been given is definitely very
intimidating, but I I've actually instead of seeing it as
intimidating, I've used it to drive myself forward to almost
see it as you have no choice. If if you are going to be the
(27:09):
worst eating female illusionist,you better get on with it and
just figure it out and try and be that person.
So I think it's also been good to to motivate me.
People who listen to this podcast will know that I love
asking magicians, this particular question in
particular because it's also an improv question.
I like to ask the question abouthow much of you gets presented
(27:32):
on stage, because often times when we present ourselves on
stage, we present a character insome way, shape or form.
Some will say what I'm showing you is 100% me, some will say
well it's sort of 5050 and some will say it's not me at all.
For you, how much of Josephine do we see in your performance?
(27:53):
I think in the past year and a half, maybe 2 years, people are
starting to see the real, the real me.
So as I mentioned before, when Istarted doing Magic, after I did
Britain's Got Talent, I only hada number of acts and these acts
kept getting booked and they're all silent acts, they're all to
music. So I didn't really ever get the
(28:14):
chance to to really be me. It was always a performance.
Whereas the past few years I've actually started writing my own
material and being brave enough to to start putting myself into
into the show. And since I've been doing that,
I've actually found performing considerably easier.
(28:34):
And it's been really interestingto to have that realization of
that actually, you don't need topretend to be anyone.
You just need to be yourself, but a little bit bigger.
And the audience's reaction and the way you can connect with an
audience is it's actually quite overwhelming.
(28:54):
Once you when you get that connection and you think, Oh my
gosh, they actually, maybe they do like me.
Maybe it's not just the whole big music and big props.
And that's a really powerful feeling.
Very, very powerful. Other than the top leading
female illusionist, what would you say you want your audiences
to think of you? I would like them to feel like
(29:20):
I'm a good person. That is really, really important
to me. It's actually really
interesting. I'm slightly off topic, but a
very good friend of mine is is very much into the 16
personalities. I don't know if you've heard
about it, but basically there's sixteen types of personalities
in the world and you can do a personality test and anyone
(29:42):
who's listening, I think the website is 16 personalities.com.
You do this test, it takes about20 minutes.
You answer all these questions about yourself and then it tells
you the type of personality thatyou are.
And it gives you a bit of a description about how you about
you, how you handle situations, your interactions with other
people, you know, how you deal with things in life.
(30:06):
And I was incredibly shocked at how accurate my personality was.
And the number one thing on there was honesty and doing
right. And for me that really struck,
struck a chord because it is very important to me to to be a
good person. And I think it's and recently
(30:28):
started using my show to portraymessages to, to make people feel
good and to really leave the show thinking, you know, leaving
them with a topic that makes them go home and think, oh,
actually, maybe I can do this. Or maybe what if I view view
this situation in a different way?
I read a lot of self help books.I hate that they call them self
(30:50):
help. They should call them like
motivational books or self discovery books.
Not self help, but a lot of those books that I've read over
the years and have helped me, I now want to put into a show that
will help other people. You know, that certainly has
become a bigger trend within thelast 20 or 30 years in magic,
(31:10):
where it's no longer just here'sa trick that will fool you.
It's now more of here's a trick that's going to make you
experience something or make youlearn something.
And I love the idea of a magician who can focus on not
just what the audience sees or hears, but what the audience
feels. Is that definitely true for you?
(31:31):
Absolutely. And I've really studied this
over the past few years because especially with all these AGTTV
shows and talent contests and things, I've really looked at
like, who is it? Who's striking A chord with the
audience and why? And it's always because they
make them feel something. And even when I watch a show as
(31:54):
well, I mean, I cry almost everyday.
My husband laughs at me. But if I haven't cried by the
end of the day, then something'sdefinitely wrong.
I'm quite, I feel a lot and I think when you watch these TV
shows, it's always because there's a story, either a
background story or someone sings a song and those words in
(32:14):
that song resonate with, with you for some reason.
And that's that, that makes you feel something and a lot of
magic and a lot of magicians. I It's interesting to see the
people that I enjoy watching arealways, not necessarily because
of the magic trick, but it's what they've taught me.
(32:35):
They've taught me something, or they've made me think something,
or they've made me question something.
But often it's got nothing to dowith the magic.
The magic is just a little addedbonus on the end, but it's
actually the story, and that's incredibly hard to achieve with
magic. I often think it's much easier
for singers because music reallyresonates with people and it
(32:58):
really hits hard on the soul. Whereas with magic, how do you
make someone feel the same feeling they do when they listen
to music? Well, of course we all remember
you from your performance on Britain's Got Talent.
Can you talk about what that experience is like?
How did that opportunity come about and what were some of your
fond memories of being on the show?
(33:22):
I don't know if I'd say they were fond, They were stressful.
I had. I was in a magic show in London
with the winner of BGTI, can't remember what year it was.
His name is Richard Jones, really, really lovely guy.
And he had won the show and theyput him into our show Impossible
in in West End. And the producers came to watch
(33:44):
him in the show. And during that show they, they
obviously saw me. And afterwards they called to
say we've seen you in Impossible.
We'd love to put you on Britain's Got Talent.
And I, the first thing I thoughtwas, Oh no, I don't have
anything good enough. You know, I've not been doing
this for very long. I just, all the self doubt just
(34:05):
came flooding in and then I realised that, you know, I
really had nothing to lose. Like I didn't really have an act
at the time, but if I could create one it might change my
life. If it goes wrong, it doesn't
work out. Then no one knew who I was
anyway, so I had a lot of help. I was working with a guy called
Jonathan Goodwin at the time. He helped me with creating the
(34:27):
ACT for Britain's Got Talent on the show.
The actual the first time that I'd ever got the illusion right
was during the live filming. So the whole lead up to it, it
had just not worked. Everything that could have gone
wrong went completely wrong. I didn't have much money at the
(34:48):
time so I couldn't really for expensive rehearsal space, and
this prop was huge and the setupfor that was absolutely insane.
So nothing was really on my sideat all.
But somehow the universe did well and they made it go right
that one time. And then after that all the work
came flooding in from, you know,shows that I didn't even know
(35:10):
existed. But my issue was, was that I
only had one act. So I'd gone on to this show.
I did 2 acts I think and I remember in the third, the the
final, I remember being stood onstage when they announced who's
going round to the final and I just kept thinking please don't
pick me, please don't pick me, please don't pick me because I
(35:30):
had no third act. I was like the show's the next
week and I don't have anything to do.
And so it did exactly what I wanted it to do.
It gave me exposure and it brought in all the work.
But then I didn't have this hugepressure of having to come up
with a final for the show. But because I only had a couple
(35:51):
of acts, people were sending these emails saying we'd love to
book you for your two hour show and God knows where.
And I couldn't take any of the work because how on earth was I
going to put together 2 hours ofmaterial in like 2 weeks?
So as amazing as it was for my ego, I just couldn't.
(36:12):
I wasn't equipped to do what people were asking.
So unfortunately, as amazing as the experience was, I didn't use
it to its full potential becauseI just wasn't prepared enough.
I had no idea that that was going to be this whole big
explosion of, you know, his workfor the next 5 years.
(36:33):
So it's a bit of a shame becauseI really wish that if I had done
it now, I would have been so much well, well equipped to
really ride that wave of, you know, that those TV shows do
give you. But it, it, it did me well.
I worked for for a long time. And it's incredible how those
shows run your career so long. I mean, it was nearly seven
(36:57):
years ago and people still e-mail me to say we've seen your
video on YouTube. Can we book your act?
And you just think, wow, you know, how, how after seven years
is it still getting millions of views?
So it's a very powerful, powerful entertainment factory.
I like to call it to be in, not to be involved in.
You know what's really funny to me?
(37:17):
I've had the opportunity to speak to a couple of other
people that were on Britain's Got Talent and they kind of have
the same response as you did. I got to talk to Colin Cloud and
I got to talk to a Chloe Crawford and they all said the
same thing. They were invited to come and
their first instinct was to turnit down because they were like,
well, I don't have enough acts for this yet.
(37:39):
They decided to just jump into it without having anything and
just taking that risk. Is that a good way to sort of
describe you? Are you the type of person that
will just jump into something not knowing whether or not this
is going to work? I think I my dad always taught
me just say yes and figure out afterwards, which I've I've kind
(38:01):
of lived by that rule. But unluckily I've never let
anyone down. I've always stuck to my word and
managed to produce, you know, good shows.
I, it's interesting because I'vebeen asked to do America's Got
Talent pretty much for seven years, which, you know, after I
did Britain's Got Talent, they, they e-mail every year.
(38:23):
And I've been very, very cautious because I now
understand how powerful that show can be if you execute it
correctly and if you're preparedand you've got everything in
place afterwards. So you've got the production
company, they're ready to take you on tour straight afterwards.
You know, you've got you've got a team of people to push you
(38:45):
forward. So I think sometimes naivety can
be a very good thing. But once you've experienced it,
it's hard to just throw yourselfback into it with that mindset
of, oh, let's see what happens. Of all of your performances on
Britain's Got Talent, I have to say the one that's my absolute
(39:06):
favorite is the one with the three orbs that appear in the in
the box. And the reason why I loved it is
because it's a very unique variation of an older trick,
which I'm sure most magicians will of course recognize.
What was the inspiration for that routine?
So as I mentioned, Jonathan Goodwin really helped drive that
(39:29):
act and really bring it to life.He, he initially came up with
the concept and I, I remember I first said to him, oh, that that
won't work, That wouldn't look good.
And he was like, yeah, it will, you should try it.
So I kind of took the idea and, and made it my own.
And at the time, Maleficent, themovie, the Disney movie was, was
(39:53):
quite a big hit. And I thought it was so
incredible having this like powerful force of a woman just.
With, you know, one hand swipe, just moving cities and creating,
you know, just she disrupted everything.
And I love that concept of of moving powerful things around
(40:14):
the room. And that's that was kind of the
inspiration for that act. Do you find it difficult to top
yourself? Oh my gosh, yes.
Do you know, it's so interestingbecause as I mentioned, Jonathan
helped me with that act at the beginning.
And then a lot of people say, oh, I've never really seen
anything like that before. And then you, you have this
(40:37):
expectation of yourself. Well, then everything I create
has to be something that no one's ever seen before.
And for a long time that really stunted my growth as a performer
because I every idea that I cameup with, I was like, well, it's
not good enough as the floating ball or it, you know, it's not
as different. It, it looks too similar to
something else. And I've really had to let go of
(41:00):
that because I realized that if you sit and wait for something
incredible to happen or an an amazing idea to just, you know,
pop out of your brain in the middle of the night, it's never
going to come. You have to just keep creating
and creating and creating. And then every now and again,
something amazing will pop up. And you think, oh, that could
(41:22):
work, but it is hard. It's very, very hard to to
create new material that that noone else has done before.
You know, there are a lot of performers, magicians,
improvisers, actors who are plagued by that feeling of it's
still not good enough, You know,people who are like, I guess you
(41:43):
could say over perfectionist about everything.
Is it difficult to sort of satisfy yourself or are you good
with being able to say, Yep, it's good.
There's nothing else that we need to do with this.
No, I really struggle and I think a lot of people should
talk about it and I think we should all be quite open about
how we feel about it because there's nothing worse than
(42:04):
having these, you know, thoughtsof I'm not good enough, you
know, I could have done better. It's not quite right.
And seeing other people and thinking why can't I just not
care like them? And I have spent so much time,
you know, really, really questioning myself.
(42:27):
And it's such an awful feeling. It's really, really it's, it's,
it's pretty horrendous. And I think people do need to
support each other when it comesto creating.
And I often think that I love the magic community, but because
I have been involved in other communities within the arts such
(42:50):
as dancing, musicals, I've, it'svery apparent to me that
magicians don't often collaborate.
We don't really come together and think, right, let's let's
create an amazing act because a lot of magicians are creating
their own act. And if someone else or you know,
(43:13):
everyone else is doing their act, then that doesn't make them
unique anymore. And because these, because we
don't collaborate as a communityso much, it can often, it can
often make you question yourselfwhether you're good enough, and
that can be quite challenging. Why do you think magicians are
(43:34):
not too keen on collaborating with each other as you
described? I think when you're creating or
producing a show such as a musical, we're immediately in a
team and it's always been like that.
Before I did magic and I was working in the theatre on day
one, you're put with a group of 20-30 people and they're just
(43:55):
your family from day one, you know?
OK, we're going, we're all goingon this journey together for the
next 6 months. We're creating something special
and the more we individually putinto this, the better the result
is going to be for everyone involved.
Magic doesn't work like that because magicians are an
individual. So I think I, I, it's, it's hard
(44:20):
because you have these TV shows where people colour out,
collaborate and they come out with incredible products.
And you often have, you also have, you know, theatre shows
and magician where they'll they'll get a consultant on,
they'll get a writer on, they'llget directors involved and they
work as a team. But magicians at home creating
their own acts for their own performances.
(44:43):
A lot of the time they want to have the, what's it called, the
recognition for their performance.
And they can't achieve that if they say, there's been 10 other
people who helped me make this. So it's, it's an interesting
world to be involved in. But I've always said from the
very beginning that as an art form, I think magic would be so
(45:08):
much further on if magicians collaborated with each other.
You know, for the last five years, and I've shared this on
the show here before, the thing that I now have been telling
myself, and I found that it helps so much and it really
takes the pressure off with everything that I do.
I tell myself, you know what, LD, it doesn't have to be
(45:30):
perfect. It just has to be me.
That's really nice. And someone, I'm sure you've had
a David Brittland. He's an incredible writer and he
works. He used to write for Derren
Brown. He works a lot with Luis de
Matos and I did a TV show years ago with Luis de Matos.
It was his TV show Impossible, Impossible, which is I think is
(45:51):
impossible in Portuguese. And it didn't quite go right.
It was live TV and I think my shoe fell off halfway through an
illusion and I got really upset.And David could see how upset I
was and he came up to me and he said you don't need to be the
best, you just need to be working.
And it really, really stuck withme.
(46:14):
And I often wish that I just tattooed on my forehead.
So every time I looked in the mirror, I remembered that
because it's, it's such a nice thing to think, you know, I
don't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be 100%.
It just has to be good. And sometimes good is good
enough. But unfortunately, as, as, as
(46:35):
artists, I think everyone is striving to create next level
work and a lot of people strive their entire career to achieve
something unique and special that you know is going to leave
a bit of a legacy for them. And it can be tough, I think, on
a lot of people for sure. You've had the opportunity to
(46:55):
perform in some touring shows, You toured with Champions of
Magic and Illusionist 2 Point O,and now I know that you're
touring with your own show. Do you enjoy the tour lifestyle
or do you prefer to just have one set location?
As I've got old, I'm making myself sound really old.
I'm really not that old. I think I'm just an old soul.
(47:19):
But the past few years I've I'veobviously I've got married and
life is actually, life actually hasn't changed that much because
we're we're still travelling andwe're always together, which is
really nice. And I think I'm so lucky that
I've married someone who has a company online so he can
actually come with me, which I never thought was would ever be
(47:41):
possible. But I've slowed down a lot, I
think in my mind and being on tour late nights, you know,
always in the bar. I think as I've got to my 30s,
as I mentioned, I do like a goodbook.
So I feel like I think the one thing I've never had is is a
routine. I've never had a routine.
(48:03):
And as I've got a bit older, I'mstarting to slowly crave that.
So I think one set location would be very, very nice.
But I'm not lucky enough yet to to have experienced that.
You know what? You're going to be the first
person that I asked this question.
How good is it to have your husband as a support for you?
(48:25):
I think the past 3-4 years sinceI've had him, he has really
considerably pushed me forward in in this industry.
He is also a creative so having his eye on things.
He's a graphic designer so he creates all the graphics for the
show, which has really, really helped with this modern look.
(48:47):
He he's helped so much and I think when I first started doing
Magic, I was really on my own and I had these huge props.
I remember I ordered 1 Illusion and I, I stupidly ordered it to
my house because I just assumed that we could put it in the
corner. Yeah, you're laughing.
It was, it was almost like a comedy sketch.
And I lived on a High Street at the time.
(49:09):
And then this illusion turned upand it was just this huge, like
massive, like 3 by 3 metre flight case.
And I was just like, who's this for?
And he was like Josephine Lee. And I was like, where am I going
to put it? And I remember being stood on a
bloody High Street in the middleof London with this huge flight
case, just thinking, Oh my God, how, where am I going to put it?
(49:31):
And I had to deal with all of this stuff by myself.
And it just came. There were so many times that I
just thought, I don't know if I can do this anymore.
And then when I met him, he justkind of took over all the
logistics. He got a warehouse.
He was like, right, we're doing this, doing that.
This is, you know, how this is going to work.
I'm going to book the tickets and, and everything just became
(49:54):
so much easier to the point thatI just felt like I could just
focus on the performing side of things and creating.
So I'm ever so envious of these illusionists who have these huge
teams. It must be so nice just to be
able to worry about what you're actually doing on stage and all
the logistics of everything else.
(50:16):
At any point in time, have either of you ever thought about
including him in the act? He actually is.
So there is. Yeah, he actually is.
He'll laugh. So his name is Mike and we call
him Magic Mike in the show. He travels with me on the cruise
ship. And when I got the job on the
cruise ship, we, we, I knew thatI, I wanted him to come with me.
(50:41):
And the only way that we were going to make that possible was
if he, he was implemented into the show.
And he's such a great sport. Like, he's got his own
successful business, but he still gets on stage and he lets
me tie him up. I'm calling Magic Mike.
So he's the right trooper. But yeah.
And since he's been involved in the show, it's so nice because I
(51:04):
don't know any of the other couple of friends of ours who
would ever get to experience that.
And I think when we're when we're in our 90s, we'll look
back and we'll laugh about how we used to call him Magic Mike
on stage. Well, you've had the opportunity
to perform in big theaters and great stages and cruise ships.
And then of course, the pandemichappened, which of course shut
(51:26):
the entire world down. How did you manage to sort of
get through that time where people could not come to a
theatre, could not even leave their house?
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people went online and a lot of people
were doing Zoom shows and I was lucky enough to.
My husband does have a business and he has an online business
(51:47):
and he creates multimedia shows for, for corporate events and
those kind of transferred over to virtual.
So I kind of jumped on board at the time with that and started
producing content and shows for him.
And that kind of kicked off and we were really lucky that we
had, we had a very decent incomeduring COVID.
(52:08):
So I kind of completely switchedoff from magic.
And after COVID, I actually questioned whether or not I
wanted to go back to performing because I'd had two years where
I wasn't feeling anxious or I wasn't feeling stressed about,
you know, the next gig. Like we'd found, we'd found and
(52:31):
built this business where I didn't actually have to keep
performing anymore. And it made me realise how not
stressed I was when I was performing, but how I think as a
performer, we don't have a stable life.
We're constantly searching for the next gig or we're travelling
(52:53):
here, travelling there, coming up with new material.
It's a very busy, busy, busy life and it can take its toll, I
think. So having these two years where
all of a sudden I wasn't living this fast-paced life.
I got to the end of the two years and I was like, actually,
maybe I'm OK without doing it. But then I had an e-mail from
the producers of a show in London called Wonderville, which
(53:16):
was going to be similar to The Illusionist, and it was going to
open up in West End. And of course I got that e-mail
and I just thought, Oh my God, I've got to do it.
And then started performing. We went back during, I think it
was 2021, the summer of 2021. And during that show, the very
first week I tore my ACL in my knee.
(53:39):
I jumped off the sub trunk, my knee just snapped in half.
And I think having the two yearsof not being on stage, not
really exercising so much, I think my body was a bit weaker
than than I had realised. And then I had to have another
year off, I had to have surgery and I had to have knee
reconstruction. And during that year I realised
(54:01):
how badly I wanted to to be on stage.
And I think when it gets taken away from you, you realize how
much it means to you. And after that, I went into
Champions and Magic. And since then I've just been
pushing forward with work and just kind of going at it full
force because I've actually realized how I don't really know
(54:23):
any different. This is this is who I am.
And without it, I don't really know who I am.
Did you have any mental or emotional difficulty getting
back into performing? Yes, I really struggled with
confidence. I actually went to see a
hypnotist. I, I was panicking about getting
back on stage, about talking on stage.
(54:45):
And a friend of mine had said that they had been to see a
hypnotist while they own a danceschool and they had a lot of
students who had confidence issues and they'd sent the
students to the hypnotist and that they recommended that I
went to see him. So I had two sessions with him
and he actually changed my life.It was unbelievable how how he
(55:07):
just changed my mindset and that's actually given me the
confidence to put myself forwardnow and drive my career in in a
different path that I thought I was going to previously.
I think before I always questioned whether I could do
it, whereas now he said something to me in that session.
(55:30):
It really resonated with me. He was like, if everybody else
can do it, why couldn't you? And that was it.
And it was just like a light bulb moment.
And I was like, yeah, why couldn't I just need to put the
work in? So absolutely, I think everyone
did. After COVID, I spoke to a lot of
performers who really, really struggled getting back on stage.
It was intimidating. We've been sat at home for two
(55:51):
years and then all of a sudden you were supposed to be
exceptional in front of 2000 people.
It wasn't natural to anyone anymore.
A lot of times David Copperfieldtalks about how he worries about
that one lady in the front row who isn't smiling, and I know a
lot of performers have that sameattitude.
If they see that one person thatdoesn't look like they're
(56:14):
enjoying themselves, that's enough to crush them.
Do you worry about whether or not everyone in the audience is
having a good time? Yes, I am the worst for it.
Only a couple of weeks ago we did a show and I had a standing
ovation, but there were four people on the front row who
didn't stand up. And.
(56:35):
And it was probably like a a cultural thing.
I know in a lot of different countries around the world,
standing ovations aren't actually a thing.
And, and we got back to the, the, the bedroom and I was so
upset. And he was like, how did you not
see everybody else? He was like, why is it that four
people out of all the other hundreds of people bother you?
(56:58):
And it's true. It's it's, it's something that I
think we need to try to learn todeal with because you put these
expectations on yourself. And I think the hardest thing to
overcome is actually trying to deal with the expectations that
we give ourselves, not from anyone else.
(57:18):
I mean, if I never went back on stage, I don't think anyone
would really bat an eyelid. But for me, it would be like
I've let myself down. So I can definitely resonate
with that. Yeah, it's kind of like, as the
expression goes, being so far into the forest you can't see
the trees. Yes, exactly, exactly.
Very good slave. In 2023 you had this incredible
(57:42):
venue and I loved it because again, going back to what we
said earlier, it was a very modern looking venue and it, it
wasn't a traditional magician stage.
Typically on a, on a magic stage, you know, there's black
curtains and there's your typical proscenium stage.
But this was a very wide open space and a big LED screen
(58:02):
around the back. And it wasn't completely in the
round, but it was halfway there,which most, I'm sure most
magicians would be very afraid of because there's very, very
little to hide. How is that experience
performing in such a wide open space like that?
I think the hardest thing is that you have to accept that you
can't perform everything. So you might have some great
(58:25):
acts, but you just have to think, OK, they don't exist
because they won't work. And that can really be quite
upsetting because, you know, you're constantly going, I've
worked so hard on these acts andI know that they would improve
the show so much more, but you just can't use them.
But the way we viewed it was we had something that was so great,
(58:47):
which was the LED screens and the, the vastness of them.
You know, they just, they almostcompletely surround an audience
so you can create an immersive experience.
So it was instead of looking at what we can't use, what can we
use, what have we got that, you know, most venues would
absolutely die for. So we really focused on creating
(59:11):
content material driven acts. You know, how can we use the,
the content to, to tell these stories, to interact.
We actually recently integrated an, an AI act into the show
where we have an, and I have an AI assistant called Iris and
(59:33):
she, she does a magic trick on the audience.
And it was so well received and it was really interesting
because I wasn't on stage. We'd created an entire magic act
that was done through voice and content.
And it was so well received thatwe actually questioned, you
know, what does AI mean for us as performers?
(59:55):
If, if a, if a silly computer can create this reaction from an
audience without any of us on stage, you know, should, should
we be worried? But again, that goes back to the
beginning where I said, you know, really starting to focus
on creating material that's, that's relatable to what we're,
(01:00:17):
you know, the, the, the era thatwe're currently living in.
We live in a different world now, so.
Maybe we will be having AI assistance soon.
Is there anything you haven't accomplished yet that you're
hoping to achieve later on? Yeah, quite a few things, but
I'm keeping those close to my heart.
(01:00:37):
I feel like it's very, very important for the big, big
things that, you know, are, are really deep in the heart.
I think they're quite important to keep, keep close.
That's a saying, work hard and let your success, or was it in
the work hard and let your success speak for itself or
(01:00:57):
something. And I think, you know, there's
also another saying that empty barrels make the loudest noise.
And I think some people are veryquick to say, oh, I'm going to
be doing this. And it can put this intense
pressure on people to achieve it.
So yes, there absolutely are. There's quite a few, quite a few
things that I'm I'm working on at the moment.
(01:01:21):
When they happen, I'll let you know.
I'll send you an e-mail. This is one of them.
I look forward to that. I look forward to that.
Josephine, Here's the final question.
What's the one piece of advice that has served you well that
you'd want everyone else to hear?
(01:01:41):
BU I think that's so important because it's the easiest thing
for you to do is to just be yourself plus a little extra.
And I think when you're yourself, you connect with an
audience. You, you can, you can get across
(01:02:05):
whatever message you're trying to be, you know, to, to get
across to people when you are yourself.
But an audience can feel when you're not you, when you're
trying to be someone else, they feel it.
So I think that's really important to to be you.
Plus a little extra glitter. I love that.
A little extra glitter, I'm going to apply that.
(01:02:26):
Yeah. Josephine, I had such a great
time talking to you today. Thank you so much for being here
on Improv and Magic and I wish you all the best in your future
my friend. Thank you so much, it's been an
absolute pleasure. Yes, there's nothing better than
being yourself. We want to see you, we want to
(01:02:49):
hear you, we want to know you. You all hear me say this all the
time now and it's the perfect time to re emphasize this.
You are who you are and you are special.
I'd like to give a very special thank you to Josephine Lee for
joining us today. It was a true pleasure and honor
(01:03:10):
to get to know you my friend, and you will want to get to know
her as well. And you can.
Do that by visiting her website,josephinely.co.uk and if you're
lucky enough to meet Josephine, tell her LD says hi.
I'm also very happy to announce my brand new website.
(01:03:31):
Check out my new website, ldmadera.com.
You can find out more about the improv that I do, the magic that
I do. Of course, the podcast is also
on there. And you can also learn how I can
be your next master of ceremonies.
Again, that's ldmadera.com. Feel free to check it out and
feel free to get in touch. Thank you all, my friends, for
(01:03:55):
joining me on this special episode of Improv and Magic, and
thank you for these past two years of fun.
Cheers everybody. God bless you all and I'll see
you next time here on Improv andMagic.
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