The Science Behind Autopsies: More Than Dead Bodies in Basements

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oh yeah, so the one thing that people don't
understand about forensicpathology is that it is where
medicine and the law meets.
So it's not just us, like youknow, creepy weirdos in a
basement like they show inmovies and we're in the dark
with, like one of those crappylamps from the 80s.
Like you know, no glovesdigging in a dead body that's

(00:20):
not what it's like.
Dead body, that's not what it'slike.
There's a very extensiveprocess.
There's a lot of science andstuff that goes into it and what
we're doing and why we dodifferent things, and so that's
often something people will sayto me, even other, like
physicians that I've shadowedand whatnot.
They're like oh, you have to goto medical school in order to
be a forensic pathologist.
And I'm like yes, you do infact need to know what you're

(00:43):
looking at when you open up abody.
Like there's.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
You can't just cut people open with a chainsaw.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
No, apparently not I mean, you can, you just might
get in trouble.
Yeah, you can, but that waslike I actually had this
conversation, because I recentlymade um like a video and then a
post on tiktok or whatever andan instagram where I talked
about different misconceptionsabout the field, and one of them
was that people thinking thatwe don't go to medical school or
that things are different andyou can just show up and do

(01:13):
whatever.
And I had someone you know youget trolls in the comments all
the time and this person claimedto be an anesthesiologist who's
married to a forensicpathologist and said that, like
most states don't actuallyrequire that you have any kind
of medical background andcoroners just do whatever they
want.
And I was like, no, so stateshave laws about these things.

(01:36):
Um, you have to be very careful, and that's not to say that
there isn't corruption.
I am sure that there'sdifferent areas where people
kind of just do what they want,but it's also due to, like, such
a severe shortage and lack ofresources that you kind of have
to do what you got to do, andwhether that be not taking cases

(01:57):
that we should be doing orpeople doing, you know, like
back basement, autopsies orsomething like things happen but
it's not legal.
And this person went off thehandle.
I was like I'm pretty sureyou're actually like 15 year old
boy in your parents' basementwho, you know, thinks that bones

(02:19):
is real life, but it's not.
And so they ended up blockingme because I was like yeah, I'm
not having this conversationwith you if you're just going to
freak out at me in my commentsection.
And so then they got upset andleft.
But there were a lot of peoplewhere I shared like a small
screenshot of it on my story andobviously you know TikTok
comment section leaves out a lotof context.

(02:39):
So I had some friends messageme and be like what are we
talking about?
And say, once I explained it tothem, they understood.
But even then, like there's alot of like back and forth
between even just differentforensic pathologists and it's
like this law varies by stateand how it works and what they
do.
But it's purposely written tobe vague because we're also

(03:01):
trying to accommodate for, like,pathologist assistants who can
also do autopsies.
They just may not be able to dothe final sign out, stuff like
that.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
I was going to ask about them because they don't
necessarily need, like you know,to go to med school or anything
, right, like the assistants,right.
So maybe people are thinking ofthem and they're like, oh so
they don't need a degree.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, and so that was what I had originally thought.
With this first person it wasnot the case.
But with my other friends thatI was talking to, that's what
they were stumped on.
So when I explained that Iwasn't really talking about that
, then they were on board.
But yeah, so they do.
I think it's like a two, two anda half year program, it's kind
of like a master's degree, andso they go, but then they can

(03:41):
either do forensics or they cando surge path, and in forensics
it's still a little like tabooto not be a forensic pathologist
but to be a path assistant.
But I think within like the next10 to 15 years they're going to
be more popular because there'ssuch a shortage that it's going
to be out of desperation thatwe need to bring more.
And I think they have such aunique skill set too that like

(04:04):
why would we not want to usethem more if we could?
Especially like they're greatfor natural cases and like
accidents and things like that,because at the end of the day
they can't do the official signout, so they can do everything
else, and then they basicallybring the report to a forensic
pathologist or a pathologist andthey're like here you go and
then they'll look it over andthen sign off, and I think this

(04:27):
kind of varies by state too.
But then even with likehomicide investigations, there's
like a specific way in whichthey can be involved, but I
don't think that they cantestify, so then they have to
have the forensic pathologist bemore involved in that way if it
gets called to court.
But don't quote me on that,because I'm sure it's going to
change soon.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
You're talking about forensic pathologists and them
discussing with each other.
I'm curious what are the hotbutton issues among forensic
pathologists that they argueabout all the time?
Like no, it shouldn't be thisway, it should be that way.
Or like what's the drama in theforensic pathologist?
I don't think many people havea grasp.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Oh yeah, no, because what this is going to be really
funny for me to talk about,because I'm always like on my
social medias trying to preachabout how like great forensic
pathology is.
But oh, there's drama.
There's always drama, no matterwhere you go, it's going to
happen.
But some of the biggest thingsare going to be medical examiner

(05:30):
versus coroner states and wehave some mixed states.
But then even then there's somepeople that are like coroner
system should be abolished andother people are like but no,
our coroner system is great kindof a thing, can you?

Speaker 3 (05:38):
tell us on like the difference between those.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
So medical examiners are going to typically be
forensic pathologists and insome states they're allowed to
also just be any physician,maybe even just a basic
pathologist, or they can bewhoever, and they're more akin
to like a death investigator.
And so we have I'll explain itthis way there's two different
things.
There's the death investigationside of the death care industry

(06:05):
and then there's like theautopsy side.
So these things are going to beseparate.
So medical examiners in a lotof states are also going to be
the same people who are doingtheir autopsies, because they're
also forensic pathologists, sothey're able to do the whole
kind of process.
And then with coroner states itdepends.

(06:25):
So, like where I worked, we hadjurisdiction in three different
states because we were like kindof a weird little corner and
we're more rural, so we haveless cases.
So we have where we're locatedin our state.
We cover the eastern half andthen I think like eight counties
in the state below us and then10 counties in the state that's
off to the side.
I'm probably in the Midwestarea, but I don't want to give

(06:48):
away exactly where I am just yet, but like where I am at, you
have to.
So there's the regular coronersand then there's also like the
forensic specialist, who's likehead coroner, essentially for
the whole state.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
So we don't have a foreign king, foreigner king
corner.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah the king, and so those ones have to be a
forensic pathologist, but theother corners can literally be
anyone.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
So I've met coroners who were like ex-cops, who and,
and in my state they're allappointed and they just have a
thing for dead bodies, andthat's what they signed up for.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah , apparently.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's not worrisome at all.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Oh yeah, that even brings in more to this drama
discussion that we'll get into,and that's why a lot of people
don't like the coroner system.
But yeah, so where I'm at, ourcoroners will be appointed.
But yeah, so where I'm at, ourcoroners will be appointed.

(08:02):
But in most other statesthey're elected.
Person doesn't know what goesinto an investigation or what's
going on, so how do you knowthat that person is going to do
a good job?
And so, yeah, I've met coronershere who are, yeah, like I said
, ex-cops.
Some are morticians.
And then there is a few thatare like 22 years old, just
graduated college and had like acriminal justice degree.

(08:25):
Yeah, and so they have.
They've never even seen anautopsy before, and so they
would come into view with me.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
This has got to be a Fox show.
Like the first day is like acorner and you're like figuring
it out.
You're like no, no, don't grabthat, don't grab that, like that
will explode.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Every time I do like, oh, this is your first autopsy.
I give them warnings fordifferent things because I'm
like okay, this is a bone.
Saw, we use it to cut bones.
So if you're gonna pass out, goand sit down now.
Or like, we draw vitreous fromthe eyes, so I'm going to take
this needle and I'm gonna put itin an eyeball.
If you're gonna pass out,please go sit down, kind of a

(09:02):
thing.
But yeah, and so that's thething with coroners in a lot of
places they're not physiciansand when it comes to death
investigation, let's say,someone passes away and it's
reported, it's going to be sentto like that coroner and they're
going to come out and they'regoing to look at the case and go
, yeah, this needs an autopsy orno, this doesn't need an
autopsy, we'll just sign it out.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
And so basically it's like so if, like, the head's
gone, they're like, yeah, we gotwhat happened, we don't really
need to look into this anyfurther, or something depends,
because there's also laws onwhich cases need an autopsy
versus which ones don't, and sookay.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
So what if it's?

Speaker 3 (09:38):
like suspected of, like foul play, like how do you
like decide you like, oh, thisperson might have, might have
been killed, I don't know.
Let's look into it Like whodecides?

Speaker 1 (09:46):
So that would be the coroner, okay, and so that's the
frustrating part that peopleare upset about is because you
know this 23 year old new gradwho hasn't seen an autopsy
before and doesn't really haveexperience.
How are they supposed to go anddecide whether something is
suspicious, whether it was anaccident, whether it's a natural
case, because they can sign outon things that are natural, so

(10:08):
like heart attack let's say yeah, yeah.
So let's say, like my grandpa,Joe, you know 75 years old, yeah
he is at home comfortably, haslike a laundry list of medical
problems.
Yeah, you do a wellness checkand he's not alive anymore.
And so you show up and you'relooking around there's nothing

(10:29):
suspicious, like no one broke in, things like that.
Then you're kind of morecomfortable to be like, yeah,
this is a natural death.
We can just write it out assuch.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
But what if they find somebody at like a table with a
box labeled poison and theyhave like a spoon and a bowl and
they're like just keeled?

Speaker 1 (10:45):
over.
That would be like I think thisis foul play.
Yes, coroner, call in someone.
Yep, and so that's when theywould decide that there needs to
be an autopsy.
And so then for us specifically, they would bring it to our
facility and we so like whenthey come in, the whole process
of an autopsy is we start withan external evaluation.

(11:05):
And so I kind of describe it topeople like you're making a
burrito.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
You ask them about their ideas and what they want
to do in the afterlife and thatsort of thing.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, you sit there and you talk with them.
I did sometimes talk to thebodies occasionally.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
I mean, I feel like you have to Come on.
I would totally talk to a bodyif that was my job.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Usually, too, it would be, you know, if I'm doing
stuff because you get used todoing a job and so sometimes I'd
move around and I'd likeaccidentally hit them, or like
drop something.
Yeah, I'd be like oh my God,I'm so sorry, joe Like.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
I didn't mean to do that Things like that.
I think that's totally normal.
I talk to myself.
I'm definitely going to talk toyes exactly.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Sometimes I get made fun of, but I think it's normal.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
I'm just going to put that out.
There we talked to dogs andstuff.
Why not a dead body?
Neither of them understand whatwe're saying.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Exactly.
So yeah, no for an X-Turtle.
Basically I describe it topeople kind of like a burrito
situation.
So they come in a body bag.
We start with pictures.
You're going to take a pictureof them in the bag.
They have the little tag on thezipper.
If it's suspected of foul playthey'll put evidence tape around
the zipper too, because thattells us no one's been in the

(12:17):
bag to mess with stuff duringtransport.
So we'll take pictures of thatto show it's all intact.
And then we'll open it.
And then we take more pictures,just as the way they are, and
then, like that, when we starttaking notes too, of like what
the person's wearing, what youknow personal property is on
their body or in the bag, kindof a thing, and then you can
start taking off clothes andthen we do dirty pictures.
So pictures as they are thatway, and then you clean them up.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
And then you post them to your only dads yeah, and
that's how you get the corners,that's how there's like oh, I'm
totally in on this, I'm signingup for office.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, that's when they start planning, making
their profile, and they get tipsfrom other people that are
there to figure out how theyshould run.
But yeah, no.
So we go through the processand then, once that is kind of
done we've done the notes, thepictures we'll do an X-ray too.
So we have a full body x-raycalled the low docks, and so you
can pull out this long tableand you just roll them on there
and then you scooch it on andit'll do a full body x-ray, or

(13:11):
you can even adjust the settingso it'll do like just the head I
gotta know, with the x-rays,have you ever looked at one and
been like, oh shit, that's notsupposed to like?

Speaker 3 (13:18):
do you have any stories that are just like
that's not supposed to be inthere?
You know?

Speaker 1 (13:23):
so there's been.
There was one time, um, wherewe had a case, and this was
before we got our lodox.
So we used to have like thisreally old, freaking, crappy ass
x-ray with the tiny littlecassette trays, and so I would
have to do a full body x-rayusing these little cassettes.
So imagine me um, just forcontext, I'm like 5'4" okay, and

(13:45):
I'm a petite person.
I'm tiny and I'm rolling deadpeople who are upwards of like
400 pounds by myself to getx-rays.
So imagine this tiny girl likewhimpering and cramming x-ray
plates.
It's difficult, but there wasone because we had no idea what
had happened.
This person had been burned,and so they came in.

(14:08):
And we also worked with the FBIa lot, because where I'm at,
there's a lot of reservationsaround us, and so the way that
it worked is the FBI would beinvolved in certain cases that
way, and so they were telling usabout how they think they know
who it is, but they're not sure.
So we're looking for differentthings, and so I'm taking all
these x-rays and then I pull upthe one for the chest and I look

(14:29):
at it giant, freaking wad froma shotgun like the whole thing.
so yeah, and so it was close,because usually you know you get
like um, the bird shot andstuff when you're further away
and the shell like drops orwhatever.
No, the whole thing was there,and so we're like okay, so this

(14:49):
wasn't an accidental fire, thatjust happened to occur.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
This person was dead, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
And so they were living, yeah.
And so when I looked at that Iwas like that's not supposed to
be there.
And so then they all came overand looked at it, because at
first I had no idea what it was.
I was just like there's a bigblob with some little things
around it that should not bethere, but it is, and I don't
know what it is.
And so we looked and I thinkthe forensic pathologist was

(15:19):
like oh, holy shit, like well,we know that this wasn't an
accident anymore.
So then we had to look atdifferent things and, um, to
identify them, we would get likedental records and stuff, but
at that point in time we werekind of looking for a general
guess as to who it might be, tolimit it down to know who we
should request records from.
And so we actually looked for,um, the pants, to look at the

(15:42):
button on the jeans because it'smetal, so it survives the fire,
and so we can see like thisperson who is missing was last
known wearing these pants and wecan match the brand, and that
gives us at least a little bitof wiggle room.
So that way we're not askingfor dental records from like 70
different missing people fromeverywhere.

(16:02):
We can be like okay, so we knowit's this outfit that we saw
from the person's picture thatthey have these pants, so at
least we can narrow it down thatway and then, if it still
doesn't match up, that's whenyou would expand and like look
at more.
But uh, yeah, seeing, that wasdefinitely freaky.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Um, there was another time like swallow something
like they swallowed, likesomething in there to hide, to
like sneak it in somewhere andyou're like oh, you didn't make
bags of drugs.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah yeah, They'll do that.
So there was one time where wethought we saw it and we were
all like excited because we'relike oh my God, we figured it
out already Like you know what?
it is, yeah, we're like holyshit.
And then once we were lookingcloser and we got on the inside
it was just gas and we're likeoh, oh, damn, okay.

(16:48):
Um, because that was like thestory too, because usually when
they come in the people willtell us kind of situation
surrounding the death and likewhat was going on, what that
person was involved in, so wekind of know what to look for
generally we think they hit ussomething up their butt.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Can you check?

Speaker 1 (16:58):
it out.
There was one time I wasn'tthere for it, but my friend was
telling me how there was a casewhere it was this old person who
had a bright, blue, glitterybutt plug in.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
Oh yeah, that should show up on the x-ray.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
And so the forensic pathologist that was working
that day, he is like a dad Ieven call him dad because he's
just great.
Like every holiday Cause I'mfarther away from home.
I'm originally from Michigan,so I've moved quite a ways to
where I am now.
So I don't have family to go to, so they'll have me over for
like Christmas and Thanksgivingor whatever.
Even though we don't reallylike fully celebrate
Thanksgiving, we just like tohave each other's company,

(17:35):
especially when you're notworking that day.
So we're very close and soanything like that is a no go.
So he just like he noted it buthe pretended like it was not
there.
It was just like a no topicdiscussion.
And so my friend nicolette,she's like well, do you want me
to remove it?

Speaker 3 (17:54):
I'm assuming that's not what killed him.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Must have been, yeah, yeah and because she was like
do we put it with his personalproperty and give it back to his
family?
Like because families can be,obviously they're grieving, and
when you're grieving you do andsay weird things, and so
sometimes you might think maybewe should throw this away, but
then um, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
If a relative of mine died with a glittery butt plug,
I'd be like what a baller likethat guy.
Like they, they, they.
Yeah, they were having funright when they died there was.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
So the death investigators at our office.
They're usually like policeofficers who are, you know,
picking up extra hours andwhatnot Some of them really
great, and so I was close with afew of them because they really
want to implement change in thesystem, which is what I
appreciated about them, becauseI'm very critical of everything
they do and I let them know thaton a daily basis when cops come
in Like there was one timesomeone had fuck 12 written on

(18:48):
their knuckles and I held it upand I was like you see that,
because I do, I just want youguys to know that it's there and
they would like kind of laugh.
Some of them might get a littlemore stingy, but I also don't
care, because we don't work forpolice officers.
Um, we give them our opinionand then they suck it up if they
don't like it.
Basically, and but this one guybrandon is his name he went to a

(19:11):
scene and it was an oldergentleman.
Um walks in viagra bottleseverywhere, everywhere, and like
a bunch of them were empty, andhe was like oh my god, he gets
in sex toys all over the placeand I think this person was
probably like 75 or 80 and sohe's like good for you still

(19:34):
going after it you go and I waslike I would have been laughing
so hard because, like, heck yeah, do whatever you want, live
your life.
Oh my god, yeah, exactly.
But oh my gosh, there's alwayslike so many random little
things and I think people alsodon't realize, like how much we
end up knowing about you by theend because, like I get to go

(19:55):
through your belongings I don'tgo through your phone, but like,
if it's still on and they haveit on them, I can see like
messages and stuff pop up.
Or, like I go through yourwallet, I have to mark
everything that's in your walletand what you do and, like if
there's anything that's likemaking you like, oh that's
different, or like oh, one timewe found someone who had several
different ids with differentnames and we're like oh, so

(20:19):
sometimes we'll make up likemini stories about them, just to
like give them a little, likeyou know, context to what's
going on.
Things like that.
Or some people carry aroundinsane amounts of cash, like I
think the most cash I've countedout was like three thousand
dollars and I was like you justhave that in your pocket.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
I wish you know business.
I could see so much did theyalso have?
Drugs in their body?
No, they're probably not theones carrying the drugs in their
body.
They're probably the ones thatpay the other people to put
drugs in their body.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, so you know on jeans how you have like that
tiny little pocket that's likeusually I think from yeah, oh
yeah, we call it a drug pocket.
And so when we take off pants,we're always really careful
about it and you have to likepat the pockets to see if
there's anything in there.
And we always use the back ofour hand on the outside to
gently pat, because if there'ssomething sharp or whatever, you

(21:10):
don't want to like stabyourself or hurt yourself, so
you kind of like gently feel.
Then you take a peek inside tosee and make sure, and then you
can reach in and pull stuff out.
And drug pocket is one thatpeople often forget about
because it's so small and mostnormal people don't store stuff
in there.
There's always something.
And I found so many drugs inthat pocket and I remember one

(21:33):
time I had pulled something outand was like oh yeah, definitely
drugs.
It was just a little wad ofpaper.
So I started slowly unfoldingit and, yeah, as I unfolded it,
it was just like a line ofcocaine and I was like, there,
we go Close that back up becauseit was just loose a line of
cocaine.
And I was like, there, we goclose that back up because it
was just loose.
And so I was sitting there andI wasn't even wearing my face
mask yet, like I think I justhad it down around my chin, so I
was like put that bad boy backup is hiding things in shoes

(21:55):
common.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
I feel like that's got to be common, like people
like hide stuff in their shoe,or do you not find?
Do you not find I?

Speaker 1 (22:01):
found.
I think we've had a few thingslike in people's boots, but it's
usually just like they puttheir phone in there or whatever
.
I've never found anything crazy, but I do know based on like
other stories I've heard thatpeople do put stuff in their
shoes.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
I feel like if I was hiding something, I'd put it in
my shoe, I feel like that's thefirst place I'd go Right what
I'm learning from this podcastis that I need to carry more
interesting stuff on my person,in case I do.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yes, we love interesting stuff, but like if
we were cool where would we hidestuff that's my question when
would you put it?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
I don't even.
I'm trying to think of like Idon't even know.
Usually people aren't likesuper creative with hiding
things or like something commonthat you'll often hear.
Like if someone's arrested andthey find something like in
their pants, they'll be likethese aren't my pants, okay, so
you just put them on and they'relike yeah, I found them and I
just put them on today, okay,who doesn't put on the first

(22:53):
pair of pants they find out?
Yeah Right, and for a long timeI always thought that was
ridiculous.
And then I've also startedworking part-time at the
emergency department here intown to get some more experience
for, like, applying to medschool and whatnot.
And there are people who haveshowed up with no pants, and so
I'm like you would be the personwho would put on random pants.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Yeah, if I didn't have pants and I found pants, I
put on those pants.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Might as well.
Yeah, no, it's a very.
There's a lot of interestingthings.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Have you ever gotten a body and they were alive?
Have you ever gotten a body andthey were alive?
Have you ever gotten a body andthey were like, oh, they just
pop up.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
No, no, no, by the time they get to us, they're
done Like, and at least ifthey're not dead, then they're
dead after Because.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
I heard the story that like back in the day, like
the graves, they'd have thelittle bell that was like above
the grave, so that like ifsomeone's alive they would put a
string in there and pull thestring so you're alive.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
and I'm like I figure now we're better at telling if
people are actually dead or not,but like, yeah, I feel like
it's possible, I don't know.
Um, I think I've heard ofstories of this happening in,
like, other countries wheremaybe they don't have that same
kind of advancement intechnology yet.
Um, or access to thattechnology I should also mention
.
But like here in the US atleast we are pretty good about
it and at least by time thatthey get to us we're going to

(24:11):
know, because usually I thinkthey're like cold and stiff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so yeah, Iwould say for us, because we
were a smaller office, likepeople would be able to bring
cases to us faster.
So I think the soonest I'vedone an autopsy is like an hour
after death, where they're stillwarm and it's really really
weird to put my hands into likewarm soup of intestines.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Now that's.
It's just weird that you'reweird to like oh, a warm body,
oh this is gross.
I'm used to my cold dead bodies.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
So there was so funny story.
So where I'm at is up northvery, very cold and in the

(25:01):
winter sometimes our facilitydidn't have good heating and I
think it got down to about 62 inthe back and I was freezing and
I get cold very easily and thenI have radons.
So in my hands when I get toocold I can't move them anymore.
I was so cold that the body waswarmer than the outside
environment.
So I started to put my armsinto the body to warm up because
I was still working.
But I was like I can just worklike you're pulling a full on
Star Wars.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
After he like, cuts open the dead.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
That's what I'm thinking, and I was like let me
crawl in here real quick to warmup.
I was like, let me just crawlright inside.
I could probably curl up andfit in here.
But I was like I got to make itwork Because at the time when I
was first hired I was one oflike two or three other
technicians, so I was doing mostcases by myself only, and

(25:37):
usually a lot of places willhave a few different techs per
case, so that way you canalternate different things.
And then, as I worked there, wehired more and more people.
But, yeah, sometimes I was like, well, I can't take a break
right now.
So I got to warm up any waypossible, and other times, if I
had time for it, like I wouldget a bucket of hot water where
I could just stick my hands inthere with my gloves.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, normal stuff.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
But you know, sometimes you got to make things
work.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
I know I get it.
Does everyone who works in thisfield?
Do they all have a dark senseof humor?
I feel?
Like it's a requirement Ifyou're going to work with dead
bodies, you have to have a darksense of humor.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Oh yeah, and like I always tell people with having
dark humor, there's obviously atime and a place, but there's
also a limit to what we do.
So like I would say I can'tspeak for everyone because I
haven't worked with everyone,but most people I would say
we're not like making fun of thedecedent.
So anyone who's worried aboutthat, we're not.
Most of the time if someonecomes in I'll be like oh my God,

(26:32):
they have such pretty hair,they have really pretty eyes,
things like that, because I liketo be nice.
But then we also have very darkhumor where we will joke about
things and that is something alot of medical students are
surprised about when they cometo rotate with us.
Is that like we're in the back,it's bright and it's big and
clean, but then we're alsolaughing with each other and
they're like I just expected itto be so serious and I'm like,

(26:54):
well, it is a serious thing,it's I wasn't thinking you were
laughing at the people likespecifically, but more just like
laughing at death becauseyou're around it constantly, so
you have to be able to just kindof laugh.
Yes, and there's something Ithink.
I made a video about this awhile ago and I actually had a
few people get really angry withme, so that's why I wanted to
clarify that we're not laughingat the decedent right um,

(27:15):
because, yeah, people, it's hardto talk about these things
because there are a lot ofpeople who do get very sensitive
about it and it's one of thosethings like I get it because
it's not easy.
Nobody likes death.
It's not fun, it's not exciting, it's not the best moment in
everyone's day, like it's thatperson's worst day of their

(27:35):
whole life and probably for thatfamily at that time it is also
that worst moment.
And so when you're working inthat for so long, if you just
let yourself sit there in thatsadness, like you're not going
to make it.
Exactly you have to keep going,and so, honestly, I quoted
SpongeBob a lot when I was inthe morgue.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Um, and he's from SpongeBob.
What do we?

Speaker 1 (28:00):
just like all of them , to firmly grasp it when I was
trying to like teach newtechnicians.
And sometimes because where Iworked, we would hire undergrad
students where they would comein and so they wouldn't have
like any experience with it, butwe wanted them to learn because
they have an interest inforensic pathology.
So I would teach them, and alot of them.

(28:20):
Obviously, when you're firstworking on autopsies, you're
being very gentle because youstill have this idea of like I
don't want to hurt them, but I'mlike no, you gotta you firmly
grasp it and you pull, like wedo blunt dissection for some
things and so like when we makethe y incision we'll go down and
then you have to reflect so youcan open up that space, and
when you grab it, sometimes I'lllike, just yeah a little bit

(28:42):
and I'm like no, you gotta ripit like you pull and then you
cut like through the fashion toprotect us so in order to move,
them.
I feel like it's gonna take somedoing yes, you gotta really
muscle through it and likeremoving intestines too.
Uh, that is something we woulduse like manual dissection for,
unless it's a very sensitivearea, then I'd pull out like
scissors or something and gothrough it.
But a lot of the texts techs,they would be really afraid.

(29:04):
And one of my friends too thatI'm close with when I was first
teaching him, and I would tellhim, like, grasp it and pull.
He's like, ok, but do I pullout your strength?
Or my strength, like how hardam I pulling?
And I'm like, well, you don'twant to rip it and make a mess,

(29:25):
but you got to, you know, putsome it out of there and um, so
a lot of people have a hard timekind of working with that.
So the firmly grasp it thingwas always there.
Or if they like didn't quiteknow, because there's a lot of
colors, things blend insometimes you don't know where
the liver ends and where it, youknow, starts the boundaries of
it to cut around to get it out.
So I would always go no, thelid, the lid, the lid, patrick,
the lid moving around, yeah, umanother lid.
Patrick the lid.
Yeah, another one was one timethe forensic pathologist was

(29:48):
trying to do part of a case onsomeone, an individual, who was
smaller, and he couldn't get hishands in there and I was like
you're big, meaty claws.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
I'm curious.
So it's like OK, so like, let'ssay, like someone who's's like
a fighter, like who's like amixed martial artist, they'll
look at people like differently,like, oh, they'll size them up
to like you know, like would Ibe able to fight this person?
Or something.
Does working with dead peoplemake you look at alive people
different in any way?
That's?
Different just like you look.
A lot people are like oh, I betthis would be that thing or

(30:19):
like whatever, just somethinglike that oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
So one I say my special skills was I could
always find the carotid arteriesright away, so like right in
your neck and I can see them onpeople Like I can look at myself
and I know that they're righthere, and then it branches down
like that, and so whenever Imeet new people, I always that's
like my first thing I look attheir neck and I'm like that's
where your carotids are yeah.

(30:41):
Yeah, you, I can't see, but umno, it's.
Those are things that I justlike knew because I was so used
to it, and then also anotherthing.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
If somebody came up to me and said that was like the
first thing they said, I'm likewe're gonna be friends.
Well, you and I.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
We're gonna get along well if you're like your
carotids are right there.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
I'm like I don't know anything about you, but I want
to, so how?

Speaker 1 (31:02):
are you right?
So my uh, the one forensicpathologist that I was talking
about, he has some kids and whenthey were younger one of them
was probably like six or sevenyears old they knew what he did.
They always did, and I thinkthey were.
He said they were in thegrocery store one time and like
the news was on, like one of thelittle tvs because it was a
smaller, local one, and it wastalking about like someone who

(31:23):
had passed away and this kidvery loudly goes daddy, did you
cut that guy?
Well, pointing at the TV.
And he goes stop, like we don'tsay that in public.
They think I'm crazy now andI'm like well, to me, in this
field you gotta be a little bitcrazy.
So yeah, Right Like.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
So, yeah, right like you have to be.
You have to dark sense of humor, you have to be a little crazy.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
You gotta be a little weird.
I mean like otherwise, yeah,like you said, you just won't
make it.
I I feel like it's a yeah.
Something we will often say isyou gotta have like a toe over
the line into serial killer, soyou can understand them but if
you get your own foot there,then that's when things start,
that's a problem.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
That's when you start taking home like the liver not
telling anyone yeah, and that'swhen we're concerned, and that's
when you get fired I'll behonest in like movies and video
games, I'm like you know.
It's probably the autopsyperson.
I feel like you know what.
They're probably the killerright there too much access to
the bodies.
They know too much.
They're too well prepared forthis I always do will like joke

(32:24):
around with my friends and belike, if you want me to, I can
get rid of whoever's pissing youoff like I I know what to do
and they're like oh my god, noyou, I feel like you'd be pretty
good at getting away withmurder because you understand,
like, what people look for yeah,I like to tell myself that.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
And then, realistically, because I've had
a lot of very random people whenI tell them what I do, they'll
be like, oh so you could getaway with murder.
And I'm like, okay,realistically speaking, no,
probably not Okay.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
but for all the murderers out there who are
listening to this, all thepeople who want to kill someone
else, what would you tell themto avoid to get caught?

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Honestly, the biggest thing is going to be area
dependent.
If you don't want to get caught, you got to make sure you're in
the right area, because they'reand I'm not going to say which
is better, because I don't wantpeople to know, but there is a
specific area you can go towhere it's going to be easier to
not get caught damn now I wantto get caught right I know there

(33:20):
was actually a forensicpathologist who wrote a book and
in it he kind of described likethe perfect murder and he got
in a lot of trouble for it.
No shit.
So, I'm always careful about mystuff.
I will often see people onlinewho are like this is what you
need to do if you want to committhe perfect murder.
And I'm like wrong, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah.
One of the like biggest thingsthat I've seen is they're like

(33:44):
if you inject potassium underthe tongue, you can OD them on
potassium.
And I was like and I waited tohear their explanation, and they
always get the explanationwrong because they'll be like
well, potassium, when you die,it decreases very rapidly and so
they won't know which is wrong.
Right after you die, potassiumwill shoot up and it gets really

(34:05):
high.
So if you're like we kind ofhave a general understanding of
where it should be, that it canbe in the normal high range, but
if you're injecting an insaneamount of potassium in there to
od someone, it's going toskyrocket and we're gonna be
like there's something wrongwith that.
That doesn't match up, and sothat's how we'll pay attention

(34:27):
to those things.
And then I always tell peopletoo, you have to think about
these things logically, likesure, you could get like a
diabetic syringe and needle andwhatever.
Where it's really tiny, youcan't really see the hole, but
who is going to sit there andopen their mouth and lift up
their tongue so you can injectthem.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
No one okay, fine, don't tell us the ways to get
away.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Tell us how, not to what not yeah, what are the ways
that people say to kill peoplethat you're like, oh no that
shouldn't be doing that that onealways makes me so mad, because
I'm like, okay, you're not, I'mnot gonna sit here and be like,
oh, you know what, sure, let mejust open my mouth wide while
you come at me with a needle,because then they're also saying
like well, the like inside themouth, that kind of tissue heals

(35:08):
really fast.
I'm like, yeah, it does healfast when you're alive yeah,
when you're dead it doesn't work.
The same way when you die, andso these things always kind of
make me laugh and I think I'vemade videos about it in the past
and so people would ask aboutit.
There was this one guy who's aforensic pathologist now but
like at the time he had justfinished up his fellowship and I
don't think he fully understoodthe context that I was talking

(35:29):
about.
So he's like, oh my gosh, likeyou guys can see, like the
needle marks from a diabetic,like needle and whatnot.
I'm like no, no, no, no.
I'm saying obviously I'm goingto fight back.
So there's probably going to bea bunch of scratches in my

(35:50):
mouth, a bunch of tears andholes like different things like
that that you're going tonotice because we look in the
mouth we go in.
we'll remove the neck block withthe tongue attached so we can
see all of that.
Yeah, and so that's why, like,I have to know where the
carotids are, because you don'twant to cut those, because they
need them for embalming whenthey go to a funeral home.
So yeah, so I'll like likedissect it away from there and
then you have to cut fromunderneath with a scalpel and
like kind of make a littlerainbow cut, and then I can
reach my hand up and grab thetongue and pull it down, and so,

(36:14):
like we get to see all thosethings.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
so I'm gonna tell so when there's like a like foul
play thing, you're looking ateverything, you're like we're
taking it all apart to figureout what's going on.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, we're going to look at everything.
Pretty much everything is goingto be suspicious.
And so, like when we get casesthat come from the hospital, you
know, let's say the persondidn't die right away at the
scene, and so the ambulancetakes them in and they're trying
to resuscitate this person.
They've intubated them, theyput in an NG tube, like all
these different things.
If that person passes away, wealways tell them not to remove

(36:45):
those, leave everything in thebody as is, because we don't
want to look at it and thenthink that something else has
happened.
And we also want to make surethat it was done correctly.
And this was something I wasactually teaching one of the
emergency department physicians,because he didn't know why we
had asked them to do that.
And so I was like, yeah, youknow, if you're intubating a

(37:07):
person, we want to make sure youdid it right, right and you
didn't put it down the esophagusinstead of the trachea, because
that would be really bad andthen they would die.
Or, like for IVs, we always askthat they leave them in and
we'll remove them, because ifthey take them out and they have
all these little holes nowwe're starting to think that
they might be a drug addict andnow we're looking at toxicology
closely and we want to make surethat we have everything as

(37:31):
accurate as possible and solittle things like that.
We're very, very like.
We look at everything to makesure, like I even.
We roll them over to look atthe back and, like I'm not
kidding you, they will spreadthe butt cheeks and look at your
butthole even like they doeverything yeah like they're
looking everywhere, and so wejust want to make sure that

(37:52):
we're not going to misssomething that's really
important, and there was onetime like sparkly butt plugs
is x-ray or that first dependingright, yeah, um no, it's just
like there's so many weirdlittle things that people don't
think about that.
We're like oh yeah, we need tomake sure that we've checked
this, because then too, like,let's say, it goes to court and

(38:14):
now you have to testify and thelawyer is going to be like well,
you didn't look at theirbutthole now did you?
and you're gonna be like well,another waste it got me there
yeah, because now they're gonnabe like well, it doesn't seem
like you're a very good forensicpathologist, huh so they're
looking for anything, just tolike hit you on something you
did wrong, so you did otherthings wrong, okay, yeah yeah,
because we did one case a whileago where there was so much

(38:37):
going on, so our office was alsoa teaching place and so we took
on more cases that were likenaturals, compared to other
offices from like hospitals andthings like that, where usually
they would have just signed itout because you know they're so
busy with like homicides thatthey don't have the time or the
resources to do every singlecase.
So we do more, which is reallygreat because we get to do see a
lot of different things.

(38:58):
But we were so busy this daydoing like seven or eight cases
and with our small typicalworkload compared to that,
usually we do like one or twocases a day.
We were everywhere.
So this one person you put themback in the cooler that I
turned around and realized I waslike, oh my gosh, we forgot to
remove the neck and so we had topull them back out and do that.
And we were panicking becausethe funeral home was there like

(39:19):
about to load them up and takethem away, and the forensic
pathologist was like, yeah, Idon't want to like have this be
something and turns out theychoked on like a sausage or
something and we didn't find itbecause we didn't remove the
neck block with the tongue.
And we're like, yeah, that's,that's a good point, like that
would be really bad.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, I'm sure you see, Okay, well, since we do
things here that are, like youknow, about health and mostly
alive people, which is like kindof our standard, like what do
you?
I'm curious, like what do yousee from like dead people that
you're like, hey, I see a lot ofpeople die this way.
Maybe don't like this.
I keep seeing people dead fromlike falling coconuts

(40:06):
no-transcript.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
But with forensic pathology especially, everyone
has like their thing.
So earlier I had mentioned,when we were talking, one of our
forensic pathologists.
He was very like healthconscious about what he ate, how
he eats it, like exercise thathe gets in all that kind of
stuff.
So that's his thing, cause Ithink one of the major things
that we always see is like somekind of heart cardiac condition.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Right, I figured heart disease has got to be like
way up there.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Oh yeah, pretty much everyone over the age of like 55
, 60 is going to have some kindof like atherosclerosis, like
their vessels are going to behardened, and so it's just so
common, and so people don'trealize that.
And then one of the otherthings too is that, like sure,
weight can factor in to acertain degree, but I have seen

(40:55):
a lot of people who are my sizewho look extremely healthy,
considered to you know, socialmedia standards, um, who have
like fully clogged arteries andtheir heart is like just a
little weak sack that flopsaround Like they're.
They have poor health.
And then I've seen people whomay be larger, who have really
great arteries and a reallygreat heart Like it.

(41:18):
A lot of people don'tunderstand that size doesn't
really matter as much as theythink it does.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
So we will use Wait, which thing are we talking about
now?
For what?

Speaker 1 (41:28):
For, like, general health, just in general, with
your heart system.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Oh, the heart system.
Okay, got it.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yes, yes, yes.
Because, yeah, a lot of peopleare like oh, you're overweight,
your arteries are probablyclogged and your heart's going
to fail, and it's like, dependson the situation, right, like
just.
And I think the biggest thingto the biggest takeaway is just
because you're skinny does notmean that you're fully healthy,
as people think, because thatwould be something where we

(41:57):
would sign out.
A case is like oh yeah, it wascardiac related and the family
would be like but I don'tunderstand, you know, they ran
every single day, they exerciseand they have this, and we're
like, yeah, but it ultimately,in the end, didn't matter.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
And it could have been butter in their coffee
every morning.
Well, there's that, it's alsojust genetic.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
Some people just have , like, high cholesterol, no
matter what they do.
I've talked to people like I'mtrying everything, I'm like you
can do everything and it won'tmatter, because your body's like
no, you suck, we're going to,we're going to take ourselves
out.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Exactly, and that's what people forget.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
Yeah, you need to take medication to lower your
cholesterol or whatever.
Like, get that shit checked.
It doesn't matter what you looklike on the outside.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Right, and that's why , like a lot of people think too
just because we're mostlyworking with decedents and dead
people that we never work withliving people, but we still have
to work with their families,and so one of the things that we
actually do this was anotherforensic pathologist who told me
this story.
But, like we, when we drawtoxicology, we're not just
looking for like drugs in thesystem, but we're checking, like

(42:57):
electrolytes and all theseother things, but also we're
testing for genetics.
Uh, we want to see if they havea condition that is genetic,
because if they have children,we can then go over to them and
be like hey, actually you havethis condition.
So one of the friends ofpathologists that I'm friends
with online, he was telling methat he um had someone who
passed away from a geneticcondition that they found out

(43:18):
then.
So he called the family and waslike just so you know, it's
genetic, you guys shouldprobably go and get checked
that's actually really nice tolike have that information yeah
and so they did and these kidsdid have it and because they
caught it so early, they wereable to take care of it and have
it managed, so they didn't haveto worry about dying from it
necessarily, because I thinkthis person that was passed away

(43:42):
didn't know that they had it.
So now the family knows andit's something they can keep an
eye on and work with.
So I always tell people, youknow, it's not just a dead
people job, you also have to seewhat's going on, um, with the
situation.
We had a case of hantavirus alittle while ago.
Uh, that we did, um, and wewere trying to figure out, like
how they got it, because we wentthrough a whole like

(44:02):
differential and because we'reconfused, and then we found out
that this person works on a farmand has, like this shed where
apparently he they recordedgetting bitten by a mouse or
whatever it was that was inthere, and so when we found out
for sure that it was hantavirus,you know, the forensic fellow
just went and talked to thefamily and was like, hey, just

(44:23):
so you know, don't go into thatshed, like unless you're all
protected, like make sure we gotto clear out the mice, because
that is what happened and that'show this person died.
So now the family can beproactive about taking care of
themselves.
So there's a lot of publichealth that goes like back in
the day someone died.
They're like, ah, whatever, justkeep doing your thing and then

(44:43):
like that family would die too,from the same thing like ah we
don't really know miasmas andstuff um.
One of my biggest pet peevesever is um when people sign out
the cause of death is cardiacarrest, because it's not a cause
of death, so cardiac arrest.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
It's the stopping of the heart.
Yeah, that's it, but like whichwe want to know.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
What made that happen ?
Right, Because every singletime someone dies, their heart's
going to stop.
Wait, really.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
It doesn't just kind of keep going.
Are you telling me you've?

Speaker 2 (45:16):
never cut into a body where the heart is.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
I know it's shocking, but I will tell you that people
get really mad about this whenI say it.
I posted a video about this ontiktok and tiktok had to
automatically put onanti-bullying protection in my
comment section because peoplewere so upset about it and I was
trying to explain like likeheart disease, can lead to the
cardiac arrest right but, likeit's not the yeah, the reason we

(45:42):
don't want it is because it'snot specific.
So, like someone could die froma gunshot wound, their heart's
still gonna stop.
They're gonna go into cardiacarrest.
They could have an illness orlike a genetic condition or they
could have been hit by a car,Decapitation and you write
cardiac arrest.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
you're like, well, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Right, and so there are a few things that kind of go
with that, like cardiopulmonaryarrest is kind of the same deal
your lungs are going to stopworking when you die.
There are like things that aremechanistic part of death where
every single person, theirbrain's going to stop
functioning, they're going toexperience anoxia, their heart's
going to stop working theirlungs are going to stop.
Sometimes, yes, but like thosethings are just part of dying.

(46:20):
So we already know that thathappened and so I hate it.
Because you'll see a lot oflike news articles where they're
like I think it was like withhulk hogan or something too just
past use.
They were like, well, they saidcause of death is cardiac
arrest and I was like the fuck,they did no, and so then later I
think they were like fullyreported on it and whatnot.
But you see it all the time andI usually what happens is like

(46:44):
our forensic pathologists haveto review the different death
certificates that come through,depending on, like you know,
jurisdiction and all that.
But if one comes through thatsays cardiac arrest, we will be
like denied, call the physicianwho signed this out and make
them change it.
And in bigger areas wherethere's so much going on, that
might not happen.

(47:04):
So sometimes families will havetheir deceased family members
death certificate signed outwith cardiac arrest as a cause
of death and that's not accurateand it really sucks that it
happens.
But it's usually those peopletoo.
A lot of them do like to learnbut then they get sad because
now they don't know what thecause is.
But then there are some peoplewho are very adamant.

(47:26):
Um, I was once called a cowardin a white coat because the
person was so mad at me.
It turns out they're an erphysician and they were so mad
at me because I said that and Iwas like, well, number one, um,
you can't do any of your jobwithout the help of pathology,
so but but I was like this issomething they don't really
teach other people in medicinehow to fill out death

(47:47):
certificates.
You kind of just learn it onthe job.
And so then they, you know theirelder physician has told them
like, oh, we don't know whathappened, just sign it out as
cardiac arrest when that's notaccurate and death certificates
kind of go by like you assignthem out based on your medical
opinion.

(48:08):
It doesn't have to be 100% true, because obviously you don't
know unless you get an autopsy,and we can't autopsy every case.
But people tend to get freakedout by that and so if they don't
know, they just put cardiacarrest and they leave it like
that.
Yeah.
And so that is my biggest petpeeve.
Whenever I teach medicalstudents I will always tell them
if you put that on a desertionkit, I'm going to come back and

(48:29):
haunt you Give me one second.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
My car's in the shop and they called to ask me
something.
I think I got to get somethingfixed or whatever.
So, yeah, you got to keep going.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
That's okay Because, like we just rolled right into
this, 50 minutes later you havebeen listening to Julia.
I'm trying to think.
I'm afraid to touch my computerin case anything else breaks,
oh yeah yeah, yeah, Was it myForensic Path?
I believe yes.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
So I'm on Instagram and TikTok is my Forensic Path.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
And I think people have figured out by this point,
you are a forensic pathologist.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
If you'd like to introduce yourself further.
Yeah, so I'm not a forensicpathologist quite yet, but I
worked as a forensic autopsytechnician for five years.
I also got my bachelor's degreein forensic science and biology
and then I got my master'sdegree in pathogenesis of human
disease.
So I'm working on applying tomedical school.
Given that, a certain bill waspassed, it makes it quite hard

(49:28):
for people who are low incomelike me and first gen like me to
afford medical school now, soI've had to kind of put it on a
little hiatus, but I'm going toget there one day.
But I spent a lot of my timeteaching medical students.
I trained all of our newtechnicians, things like that.
I've taught some forensicscience classes, so I have a lot
of passion for it and I want toget people more involved, help

(49:51):
them understand, so they don'tfall for the weird little myths
that are spread online about it.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
Or in TV shows.
Yeah, in TV shows especially ohmy gosh, there's definitely a
big rise of that true crimestuff and all the Dexter shows
like that.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Oh yeah, the crime TV shows.
I do enjoy some shows here andthere, and I will be one of
those typical people that callsout every inaccuracy when I'm
watching it, because that's justhow I am.
But yeah, there's a lot ofpeople who will see things and
automatically think that that'show it works, when in reality it
doesn't right, like they'recramming everything into an hour
long episode.
And some people are shockedwhen I tell them, like when

(50:30):
we're testing for DNA, it cantake up to a year to get a
result back on that it doesn'ttake, you know, 20 minutes like
it would in a TV show, and so ittakes a lot of time.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
But what tv?
What tv show has the scene that, like, pissed you off the most?

Speaker 1 (50:45):
that's a good one, I'm assuming it's from bones.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
It's gotta be from bones they're so actually funny
story.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
One of our forensic pathologists knew one of the
forensic anthropologists whoconsulted for an episode of
bones, um, and then watched thatepisode later and that forensic
pathologist or anthropologistwas so embarrassed by how they
portrayed it that she didn'teven want to be associated with
the show anymore.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Um, but I drama, right, they gotta play it, they
gotta create something crazyyeah.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
So like no forensic anthropologist is gonna be going
out into the field and carryinga gun like an officer, like
that just doesn't happen, right.
And so, um, oh gosh, which showmade me the most annoyed?
I think there's a lot of littlethings.
I would say I like the showdexter.
Obviously it's like from thepoint of view of someone who is

(51:33):
a killer, so it's different.
But the way that they showcaseforensics and the guy is like
super creepy and weird and likein a bunch of episodes he'd be
like, oh, this dead chick is sohot, look at her and I'm like,
yeah, no, absolutely not.
That definitely made me moreannoyed.
And like just in general, inforensics you specialize like in

(51:56):
one thing.
Even if you go into likeforensic chemistry, for example,
you're not doing all offorensic chemistry.
You're typically doing onething.
So you're doing like seizeddrugs, specifically like cocaine
, or you're doing just alcoholor like just these things.
So when you see shows like NCIS, where poor Abby is doing every
single thing in the show,that's not how that works.

(52:18):
Like the labs are filled withdifferent people trying to do
different things and they'revery careful about it.
We can't have characterdevelopment for 38 people, we
need one and it's funny becausea lot of people will actually
tell me that I'm abby from ncis,because typically, like when I
do my makeup, I have more of agoth kind of vibe going on, um,

(52:40):
and I'll be like well, actually,uh, my goal is to be like Ducky
, so I'm probably more likePalmer right now, but you got
the spirit.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Is there a higher percentage, of higher percentage
of goth people in this fieldthan any other field, do you
think, or is that like it's one?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
I think more goth people tend to actually go for,
like mortuary science.
That's where I see it, and thefunny thing is that a lot of the
people that I have met inforensic pathology in some kind
of way it's more like 60 to 70%of the people are actually very
like bright and pink and happyand love colors kind of a thing,

(53:20):
and then the rest of us aremore of the alternative people,
which is something that I didnot expect, but it's like we're
the stereotype for it, though,and so I'm like I fit in here.
How did you get?

Speaker 3 (53:30):
here what show do you think?
Does like the.
Do you have a show that doeslike the best job that you're
like?
Oh, they do.
I love their forensic pathologylike they do great.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Honestly, I don't know if I have a favorite.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
No they all kind of do the same shit.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
Yeah, and that's the biggest thing is like every show
kind of shows like if it's ahospital show especially, it's
always one pathologist who'sjust doing everything, and in
every single show they make themweird and creepy to some extent
.
Like my favorite show is Psych.
I love that show so much and Ilove yeah, to some extent, like
my favorite show is psych.
I love that show so much and Ilove yeah, and I love the guy

(54:06):
who plays like the forensicpathologist and that, but like
nothing he does is good and soobviously you don't want to be
like that.
It's not a good representation,but I love the show, it's great
, but yeah, no, there's a lot ofshows really don't showcase it.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Well.
Have you seen Death in Paradise?

Speaker 1 (54:24):
I haven't.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
no, I have, I think I have See, I was going to get
you to rate it, but if youhaven't, seen it.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Oh, I'll have to watch it and then I'll let you
know.
I think I have seen that.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
Isn't that like a British show or something?

Speaker 2 (54:37):
Or is that in the magazine?
Yeah, it's like a tropical.

Speaker 3 (54:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like that was a good the first
season.
The second season was stupid.
Don't watch that, but watch thefirst season Okay, first season
only Good.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
I remember, I'll be sure to do that.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Okay the show, because they actually changed
the lead on the show.
I don't like that.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
I get mad at that it's weird.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
The first it in quite well because you're used to
richard pool, but um, thatseason where they change,
actually that's season three,that they change over.
Um, season three and seasonfour are kind of an adjustment
period, but then it gets goodagain I don't like when they
change.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
When I get a new doctor, I get mad yes, yeah it's
.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
It's interesting because that show they they
changed the lead instead of thesupporting actors.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Right, okay.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Yeah, I didn't like that.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
That made me upset.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
Liam was angry at that.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
That was like one of the reasons why I stopped
watching the Witcher, becausethey changed the lead guy and I
was like I can't get used tothat.
Yeah, and I was like Liam, it'slike it's just too weird.
It's like my name's sake, liamHems, namesake, liam hemsworth
or whatever I was like nah nah,nah, nah, no, no, no, no, it's
not, it's not, that's not goodanymore.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
Um, but before we go I definitely want to get any
more like fun stories you gotjust like from like your time,
that like because I'm sureyou've seen a lot of things.
You're like whoa, that's weirdor whatever like that's.
Oh yeah, because those are fun.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Um, so actually, one crazy story I was telling the
other day is I've hadorganophosphate poisoning from
work, and for people who don'tknow what that is,
organophosphates are the samething that they used in World
War One to kill people.
It's a poison, it's aneurotoxin, and so it's actually
something that can be naturallyproduced.

(56:15):
They used to haveorganophosphates and things like
fertilizer, and most of it'sbeen phased out, so people don't
get that exposure anymore.
But we had a person.
So in the state that I'm in,they apparently still had it in
some fertilizer.
Um, so this person, uh,unfortunately had some mental
health complications and decidedto mix that fertilizer in with

(56:37):
some water or something and thenthey drank it, and so that we
had this person come in and Iwas doing the autopsy, and this
was during like spring break too, so I was working a whole bunch
because all the other studentswanted to go and, you know, have
fun and do stuff that's notwork related, and I was too poor
for that.
So, you know, whatever, um, yeah, and so I was the one who was

(57:00):
mostly doing the case and we hadthe forensic psychologist there
and then there were two othertechs.
One was just cleaning as wewent.
So that way when we were donewe could kind of just like mop
and then go, so he wasn't reallynear the decedent at all.
And then the other one, who'slike the full-time person, who
was there.
She was kind of just likehelping me hold things, because
once I opened them there were alot more liquidy inside than

(57:20):
what we usually do so it washard for me to hold.
Um, there it was really weird.
They just had a lot of likeascites, so like fluid build up
in the abdomen, and I don't knowthe exact mechanism behind that
.
I haven't read into it in awhile but because of that we
were opening them and it washarder for me to hold things,

(57:42):
because I can usually do like wecall it end block, so that's
where I would take out the neckand I leave everything connected
, so I just lift all of theorgans up and cut it from where
it attaches to the spine andhand it off, and that takes me
maybe 10 minutes, like at themost for normal people.
I can just grab it, cut it andgo.
But then for this person,because they were so liquidy, I

(58:05):
couldn't hold them.
So I would get little towels,because we have a bunch of them
to try to hold and then thattowel would get soaked.
So I couldn't and I'd have tokeep swapping them out.
So I was fully like over thisperson for probably 30 minutes,
breathing in everything, andthen the friend of the
pathologist took it, puteverything in water just in case
, cause he thought once hestarted to open stuff, that's

(58:27):
when things would be potentiallyreleased that might be
hazardous, but no, they were offgassing organophosphates.
So after work I was actuallygoing to a Slipknot concert.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
Um, that was about an hour away.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
Yep.
So I was driving there and Iwas like man, I have a crazy
migraine right now, but I havechronic migraine.
So I was like eh, it's normal.
And then, like my eyes werekind of watering and my nose was
running and I was like I gotseasonal allergies, it's, you
know, spring break.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
So I, yeah, I was like normal, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
And so I drive all the way out there and I go and
pick up my friend and usually Ilike to say I'm a really good
driver.
But I noticed like I was likerunning over curbs and like when
I would step on my brakes I'musually very like careful about
it, but I was like slamming onthem and my friend was like my
God, like are we going to dietoday?
And I was like I don't knowwhat's happening, like I feel
fine.

(59:19):
So we went to this concert andlike I was so excited Just
everyone there, I love them andso in between sets I would like
feel my migraine and I'm likeholy shit, like this is horrible
.
But then the next set wouldstart and I'd get excited and
forget about it.
So I'd keep listening.
And at the end of the night Itook my friend home and I drove
back, realized I forgot all ofmy stuff at his place, didn't

(59:40):
even remember it, like, didn'tremember driving home, nothing,
like it was gone, and I was likewhat happened?
So I go to bed and then I get upin the morning and go to work
again, and so the two forensicpathologists that I worked with
they're married.
So, um, his wife came in andlike busted into the office that
I was in and was like, did youhave any of these symptoms?
And I was like, yeah, but Ialways do.

(01:00:01):
So like what's the difference?
And she's like no, no, no, no.
Like you guys gotorganophosphate poisoning.
And so she's like if you havelike diarrhea and all this stuff
, like then you need to go tothe hospital and get treatment
for it, cause it's really bad,like that kills people.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Just from breathing in what he drank.
Yeah, that's crazy, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
And so I was sitting there because I had never heard
of it before.
So I started looking it up andyeah, it's a neurotoxin, and so
it basically inhibits, I believe, acetylcholine esterase and so
basically what allows you tomove your muscles, so people
would become paralyzed and then,when you can't move your
diaphragm, you can't breatheanymore.
And I was like, holy crap, ohmy God.

(01:00:40):
And so then, doctor, or the onedoctor who also was there, he
also had it pretty bad and hewas laughing.
He's like, yeah, last night Iwas salivating Like I was at a
golden corral and I was like, ohgreat.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
If that doesn't tell you the dose makes the poison, I
don't know what does Causeright, right, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
It was really crazy and I remember I didn't have
those specific symptoms, butmemory loss is one of them and
typically my short term memoryisn't the best.
I have ADHD, you know I gotproblems and so I just you know
things come and go, but like Ihad pretty significant gaps of
time or anything, no, thankfullyI was okay.

(01:01:21):
But I remember I told one ofthe ED physicians I work with
about it and he goes you didn'tget treatment and I was like,
well, I don't know.
I can't afford that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
Yeah, I was just about to say we're in America,
we can't afford health care.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
I was like, are you kidding me?
And he laughed and I was like,yeah, exactly, I'm just going to
tough it out.
Either.
You know, I make it and I'mfine.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
Or I end up where I work Like that's just how it
happens, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
I was like either way , it is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
I'm going into work one way or another.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Yeah, oh, my gosh there.
There was one time that we hadsuch a bad snowstorm Like my car
was buried.
So I remember texting them andwas like, sorry, I can't come
into work today.
My car is buried under snow soI can't get out.
And they're like, don't worry,we'll come get you.
And I was like what they showup in the coroner truck and this
is like almost a lifted pickuptruck so that way they can go

(01:02:11):
through bad weather.
They pull up in front of myapartment building and, you know
, it says on the side like ingiant block letters coroner,
like county coroner.
And so I had to run outsidethrough the snow and climb in
there while everyone's staringat me and I was like great,
thank you.
I was so excited for a day offif you got like poison from that
.

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
Has there?
Has there been like coroners oranyone like you know, autopsy,
like assistants or anyone that'sdied from like doing an autopsy
?
I'm assuming that's gonna bevery rare, I mean I yeah, so it
is.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
There's like certain things that we won't do for the
safety of the people who areperforming the autopsy, like one
of the biggest things is likeCJD Crutesville-Yakub, I think
you pronounce it that way Badcow disease or whatever.
Yeah, so we, like most offices,won't do that.
There are specific offices inthe country that will so like we
won't do that.

(01:03:02):
There are specific offices inthe country that will so like we
won't even touch the case.
I know one of them, I think, isin Western Michigan, and so
some will go there, butotherwise, like no office is
capable of doing those things.
So, yeah, we won't do it.
For a while.
When COVID first started Cause Ifirst started my job like right
before the pandemic happened,and so we weren't taking cases

(01:03:22):
that had COVID because we weretoo afraid of, like, the
transmission of it and how itwas working.
And, uh, cause, at the time,you know, we didn't know.
And then, once we started tolearn a little bit more, we were
able to take some more cases,but we had to wear like a full
PAPR unit and like all thisstuff to make sure.
And so we like slowly startedaccepting those cases, depending

(01:03:43):
on the situation.
And then, um, yeah, there aredifferent precautions that we'll
take just in case.
Um, usually transmission ratesare pretty low for those types
of things, but it's still likeIf you cut yourself or whatever
you got to go in, like you gettested for all these things.
I poked myself once and.
I was like under observationfor like nine months to make

(01:04:06):
sure I didn't get like HIV orany of the heps or anything like
that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Have you ever had someone with rabies?
I've always thought that's likethe worst way to die.
It's like one of the worst ways.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
So we thought we did for one case, but it ended up
being just outside of the windowfor rabies, um, and how it?
Um, oh gosh, I can't rememberoff the top of my tongue the
word for it, but how it likefunctions.
You know, it goes through aprocess.
So we were just outside of thattime frame where it would have
worked, because they were bittenby a dog or something like that
, okay, but they died, like Ithink it was like 90 to 100 days

(01:04:39):
later, which which is justoutside that window, I believe.
And so we're like, ok, well,it's not that.
So now we have to go back tothe drawing board to kind of see
what might be going on.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
I don't have rabies, but I just do like I don't work
around animals, but like that'sjust just like.
As soon as you're like, that'sit.
There's no like if you get thevaccine or whatever within the
time frame or know you can getthat, yeah like right away
because I keep seeing videos ontiktok now, like when I'm just
scrolling and they're like Ifound a bat in my closet.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Get that shit out of here yeah, and I was like, are
you kidding me?
Because now I'm like is thisjust a common thing that people
are getting bats in their houseall the time, and that scared
the crap out of me I don't like,and so now I'm always paranoid
because yeah, it's, it's notgood.
I'll say that from like casereports I've read.
I've never seen a death from it, but it's not great.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
Fucking hot, take Rabies bad.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Right, yeah, who would have guessed?
Don't like it yeah no, butthere's always different like
limitations to cases.
I think I mentioned earlier.
There's different laws about,like, what we can take and what
we don't need to take, and so Ithink in situations where it is
more dangerous, if they'recomfortable they would probably
just sign it out, like ifsomeone went to a hospital and

(01:05:48):
was diagnosed with rabies andthen they died, the coroner or
the medical examiner, whoeverlike oversees this case,
depending on where it is, they'dprobably look at it and be like
yep, you know, we'recomfortable just having you guys
sign that out.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
We don't need to autopsy it Like we're good so do
you think we should?
Get rid of the coroner thing.
Where are you at with that?
Should we, should people not berunning for office's coroner?

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Personally I think it needs an overhaul.
I there are some counties wherethey or some states where they
do have a law saying like thecoroner has to be a physician,
and at least if they havemedical experience I think that
helps because then they can lookat a situation and know whether
it needs an autopsy or not.
But other places, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
But if your last job was like Chuck E Cheese or
something, and then you go inwith dead bodies, I'm like I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
That's not my favorite thing in the whole
world.
I don't really want that persondeciding whether I need an
autopsy or not in case somethinghappens they get some kind of
training, but still, I don'tknow yeah, some places do have
you get like certified where youhave to do like death
investigation training, andother places don't.
So you kind of just show up andthen the like caveat to all of
that is that we would have tohave enough staffing to be able

(01:07:02):
to make up for that.
Like, if we're going to requirethat only physicians are
coroners and we need to haveenough physicians who would be
willing to do that.
And so that's the hard thingbecause, like a lot of medical
students, when they go to medschool, they either don't even
know that forensic pathologyexists.
They think all of pathology isjust looking at a microscope,
you know, in the basement of thehospital all day.

(01:07:23):
So they don't know it's a thing.
And a lot of people I've metwhere they've like become an
established professional intheir field.
They're like man, if I could goback, I would have gone into
forensic pathology and I'm likethat's why more people need to
know about it, because you knowit gives people options Before
we go like what do you wantpeople to know about?

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
like forensic pathology, or is there things
that like they're like?
I wish people knew this.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Yes.
So I have a few little thingsthat are kind of intertwined.
One of them is it's not justdead people.
You can do so much withinforensic pathology because also
the way you get there is you doyour four years of med school,
you have to do a pathologyresidency, so the most common
one is going to be anatomic andclinical pathology.
You have to at least doanatomic, and so that's about

(01:08:07):
four years, and then you get todo a year-long fellowship in
forensic pathology.
So once you get there, you'realso board certified to do these
other things.
So I know a bunch of forensicpathologists who have done both
surgical pathology and they goand do forensic pathology or, if
they want to take a break, theywork at a hospital for a bit.
Pathologists do a lot ofdifferent things that people

(01:08:27):
don't realize, and so it's morethan just looking at a
microscope on seeing tissuesthat are there and doing
histology.
There's a lot that goes into it.
And because there is such ademand, a lot of people are
talking about the demand forprimary care physicians, which
is really important, but rightnow in the country I think
there's only about 500 forensicpathologists and in order to do

(01:08:50):
everything that we would want todo.
I think we need probably triplethat amount, if not more.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Yeah, because there's 50 states.
I'm not great at math, butthat's like 10 per state and
like that's especially big.
That's not that many.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Yeah, it's not great, and even some states might only
have one right, or maybe theyhave two and then others have
more, but like the distributionis hard and yeah, and so that's
one of the scary things is thatyou know we have to find ways to
entice people to come intoforensic pathology and really
when you do that you kind of endup being a jack of all trades.
I find it very similar to likeemergency medicine, where you

(01:09:26):
kind of have to know a littlebit about everything to be able
to do it right, because youcan't go into forensic pathology
and start doing an autopsy andbe like, well, I didn't
specialize in the kidneys, I'mnot a nephrologist, so I don't
know.
Like you can't just do that.
Or like sometimes we'll consultpeople, like we've consulted
radiologists to look at x-raysor we've consulted
neuropathologists, we'll takeout the brain and then you can

(01:09:46):
stick it in formalin and mail itout and they'll look at it for
a better analysis, like littlethings like that.
But you can't obviously do thatfor every case.
So you end up knowing so muchabout a lot of different things
and especially like surgeries.
If a person's had had a surgery, you got to know what it is and
how it was done.
Was it done correctly?
Um, and then, like emergencymedicine, like I talked earlier,
was it done correctly?

(01:10:07):
Things like that.
So that way you know how toapproach each case, and so you
learn a lot, and it's that'swhat makes it.
I think one of the mostexciting fields is because it
really keeps you on your toeshave you ever had a copy?

Speaker 3 (01:10:18):
like all right, I killed this person, but like
maybe I pay you a little bit ofmoney and maybe you say it was
like cardiac arrest.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
So there was one time I was doing a case and it was
an infant case and because I'mthe senior, was a senior tech, I
always had to do all of likethe children in the infant cases
, which kind of sucked.
But I did my job because I knewit was important.
And so we're doing this one.
And this officer was there whowas watching and he was
insistent that it was a homicide.
And we're like okay, well, likewe're gonna do our job, we're

(01:10:46):
gonna look and all that, andoffered him a chair and whatnot
to say, and he's like no, no, no.
And you could tell he was grumpyand he was like this, far away
from me, like just hovering andwatching me, and I was like my
God okay, and watching me.
And I was like my God okay,Because I was also trying to
teach a little bit to some ofthe other techs at the time,
Like they weren't doing anything, but I was trying to explain
what I was doing.
And so we get through the wholething and this guy's like so

(01:11:09):
it's a homicide, right.
And we're like no, like there'snothing here that shows that
this is a homicide.
And so the situationsurrounding this was like
homeless woman just had baby wassent home from hospital right
away without any kind of careplan and process, and at that
time you could only stay in theshelter for so long, and so they
went to stay somewhere elsewhere they ended up co-sleeping

(01:11:31):
and woman rolled over stuff likethat, and so very, very sad
obviously not great but mysuspicion and suspicion of other
people in the office, this wasa homeless person, first of all,
but also a woman of color, um,and so they, yeah, and so they
kept saying, like well, it's ahomicide, and we're like no,
like there's nothing here tosuggest that there was anything

(01:11:55):
of that nature just like anincredibly tragic case
yeah.
So then we finish the case.
This guy stomps out.
Uh, we get a phone call like 30minutes to an hour later.
This guy wouldn't complain tohis boss, saying that we're all
stupid and incompetent, we don'tknow what we're doing.
We didn't like even let him sitdown, so he had to stand the
whole time.
And we're like what, like this,yeah, oh yeah, and just like

(01:12:17):
this whole thing.
So he called, called our bosslike the head forensic
pathologist.
So then she called us and waslike what happened?
And so we went through the caseand she's like, oh yeah, they
can fuck off, like yeah, andthankfully, like I'll say, most
forensic pathologists havereally good integrity about this
.
I don't know everyone and thereare definitely instances of
corruption.
There's actually an award forforensic pathologists that they

(01:12:41):
give out every year who standsup for the right reason against
people who are trying to bribethem.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
That's actually really good.
I hope the medal's like agraveyard or something like a
tombstone, Right?
That would be so cool.
I've never seen it, but I knowthe one forensic pathologist I
worked with got it.
If it's not a tombstone, Iwould be very disappointed.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
It would be very, very cool.
I should look it up and see,because it was actually made.
Oh gosh, I can't remember thename of it, but in like right
outside New York City there wasthat prison and they had the
prison riot like way back when.
And that's when, like, theofficers went in and just like
shot everyone and then tried toblame it on the prisoners to
make them look bad, and theywere like, don't tell everyone

(01:13:22):
that we went in there and killedthem, cause I think they even
killed some of their own peoplewhen they went in and did this.
It starts with an a.
That's all I can remember.
But, yeah, the forensicpathologist who did all those
autopsies noticed that thebullets matched their guns not
anything that the prisoners had,and like they tortured some of
these prisoners like made themwalk over broken glass, like all

(01:13:47):
that stuff, um, and so theytried to pay off the forensic
pathologist to not say anything.
They even threatened him,threatened his family, like he
had to get protection set up,but he still stood up for what
he knew was right and spoke outabout it, and so that was uh,
who they made the medal or theaward for yeah, yeah, and so
that's something that's prettybig and that's why we always try
to emphasize that, like wedon't work for cops or for the

(01:14:07):
FBI.
We work alongside them but we'reindependent because we need to
be able to form our own opinion,and sometimes officers aren't
going to like it, but, if I'mbeing honest, sometimes officers
are stupid.
That's just kind of how it is.
And, um, I some of them haveasked me the most ridiculous
questions that I was like areyou okay?

(01:14:27):
Um, like, one of them insistedthat we would take.
So after a case when theforensic pathologist is cutting
up the organs and stuff, we takelittle sections that we'll put
into a stock jar.
And this is kind of reassurance, like, let's say, we're really
banking on toxicology to comeback saying this person
overdosed and they didn't.
Now we don't have the bodyanymore because it takes for us.

(01:14:50):
It was really fast.
It was about two months forthese results to come back.
So obviously they're not withus.
We have to send them on theirway.
So now we have to figure outwhat actually happens.
So now we have to figure outwhat actually happens.
So now they have these sectionsof tissue that they've saved in
this jar that they can take outand look at again to see what
else is going on.
So did the cop ask you if it wasa trophy.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
I'm trying to figure out what the cop like what could
they possibly like you?
So?

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
them.
I think it was also like thefire chief or whoever that was
there but they were like, ohyeah, so you guys put these in
water and you freeze it and youstore it in a fridge, Right, and
we're like no, no, this isformal.
And they're like no, I'm prettysure that's water.
And I was like you want todrink it and we'll test it.
Like no, it's not water.
Because then I was trying toexplain to him like when you

(01:15:33):
freeze tissues, it destroys thetissue, Right, Because the water
is expanding and it'sstretching all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
And they're like no, no, and I was like okay, yeah
standing outside in minus 40degrees is bad.
Oh yeah, yeah, we've done a lotof frozen cases.

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):
Um, when they freeze, obviously you can't cut into
them right away.
So we always say you have tothaw them, like a turkey where
you bring them out for a littlebit, you put them back in the
cooler for a bit, bring them outthat kind of a thing, because
once you start to melt, youdecomp right away.
Like you will see the turns sofast, and so we're trying to
preserve everything we can.
So I was like, yeah, if we wereto do something like that and

(01:16:12):
bring it out in two months, thattissue is gonna be goo, like
that would not help our purposeat all, so there's no reason to
do that.
But there's a lot of crazythings that happen and there's
definitely bits of corruption.
That's kind of earlier what Iwas almost getting into as well
as like when you have ex-copswho are coroners going to these

(01:16:33):
things.
I think there was a study done,I don't remember for sure,
where they actually saw thatlike a lot of cases, if cops
were involved would be signedout as like an accident, when it
should have been a homicide,and for us homicide is a medical
term, so it just means thatsomeone was involved in your
death doesn't necessarily saythat there's guilt or that there

(01:16:54):
wasn't reason, like it couldhave been self-defense,
something like that, whateverwasn't necessarily manslaughter
yeah, yeah, exactly, and sothat's when it gets into law
speak and that's past our youknow expertise.
But yeah, um, so then casesweren't being done appropriately
and so there's a lot of likeissues with people doing that
and you know, I'm sure there aregreat ex-cops out there who are

(01:17:17):
, you know, coroners that try todo things correctly but but
also it's like it's justinherently a conflict of
interest, and so there's thatbig issue.
That's that's there.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
So, yes, okay, so the cops aren't always invited to
your, to your parties that youthrow, basically.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
Yeah, yeah, um, no, we uh and it's funny cause, like
when we worked, every time wethink that something could be a
homicide we would always askthem to come, and most of the
time they would, but sometimesthey'd be like, ah, no, and
we're like no, what do you mean?
No, and so yeah, so the system,just generally the death
investigation system, reallyisn't great and.
I watched an interview the otherday by Dr Damao.

(01:17:58):
So he's like pretty big inpathology and so he wrote like
some of the big textbooks thatwe all learn from and whatnot.
And so he was talking.
He's like the deathinvestigative system death
investigation system is horrible, it sucks, it's really bad.
And the interviewer was like,well, this person says otherwise
and he's like well, thatperson's wrong, but there's a

(01:18:18):
lot that goes into it andultimately it comes down to just
resources, because peopleforget about us, right, like we
don't get a lot of money becauseyou're not thinking about the
fact that you might be dead yeahit's over and that's just the
end of it.
And so then you know it's hardto hire new people to come in
and it's hard to get peoplecertified or get them to have

(01:18:38):
higher qualifications becausethey want better pay and things
like that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
To quote what was it the mummy?
Death is only the beginning.
That's like your job, yeahexactly.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
That's the biggest thing.
There was a quote that I reallyliked from this book I read.
It was from a forensicanthropologist.
He kind of talked about hislife.
He's the one who started thebody farms.
They have a few around theUnited States where they do
research on this stuff.
So that's how we get a lot ofour information.
But he was saying you know, atthe end of the day I can't bring

(01:19:09):
back your loved one, I can'tmake everything better, but what
I can do is give you the truthand that is like the biggest
honor a scientist can give atthe end of the day is the truth.
So you can start to understand,you can grieve and go through
your process and you can heal.
And that's as much as we can do.
And that is still a pretty bigjob.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
And, in some cases, save further lives with the
genetic testing and all thatkind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
Exactly.
Sometimes there's more thatgoes into it and we can do more.

Speaker 3 (01:19:34):
What I'm getting from this is make sure you get your
cholesterol checked and watchout for heart disease and your
coroner or whoever examines youwill get to know you very well,
so understand that with what youkeep on your body.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
Yeah, also, if you can shave your head, because
going through hair is so hard,totally If you can just be naked
, that would also be great Savesa lot of time.

Speaker 3 (01:19:57):
Some people are going to be very excited about this
information.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's ourfavorite thing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:02):
We'd open up a body bag and we're like everyone
they're naked, this is great,and so we don't have to worry
about inventorying, and so we'reall excited.
Or like someone who is baldwill come in and we're like, yes
, because then on one hand, itmakes it a little bit more
difficult for the funeral home,because they have to hide the
incision that we make.
So we can go in to get the brainbut for us it's great because

(01:20:23):
we try to like we'll separatethe hair and like I'll tie it up
so that way I'm not cutting allyour hair off.
But it's, some people have suchthick hair and I'm like I'm so
sorry as I go through, or likeone of the things that we had to
be careful about working withreservations is the indigenous
people around us have thatspiritual connection with their
hair too.
So whenever I would cut some ofit off by accident, I tried

(01:20:46):
really, really hard not to.
But if I did, I would gather itand then I put it back with the
body so it stays with them.
So there are little things likethat.
So I always tell people if youcan shave your head, take off
your clothes.

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):
Shave your head and be naked.
Those are the two maintakeaways from this.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
That would be great, any bald guys out there that are
worried about losing their hair.
Don't worry, there is aforensic pathologist excited to
see you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:09):
We say thank you.
Yeah, exactly.
Every time I see people likethat, I'm like, yeah, that would
be a great one.

Speaker 3 (01:21:15):
Well, make sure, before you go, you introduce
yourself, because we never didthat.
You probably should tell people.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
Oh, don't worry, we did that while you were checking
your car.
Oh, awesome, perfect Okay great, everything's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
By the way, there was a big metal piece that was
stuck under my car.

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
I thought something was dragging on the floor or the
ground or whatever, but therewas just a big metal shard just
under my car.
I don't know was a thing thatcould happen, but in the winter
it gets so cold here that theyare like, oh, car warm, and so

(01:21:53):
then they build their nestaround, like my air filter and
stuff, and so my car will startto smell funky and I'll have to
go get it and then you getcaught to virus or whatever that
is.
Yeah, yeah, they'll come in andbite me and like I've done
everything to try to keep thesefreaking mice out and they just
don't care.
I think they one will leave andjust tells all their friends

(01:22:14):
and then they come back withmore and whenever I get my oil
change, they'll look at it andbe like, yeah, see you.
And I'm like I know, I know, Ihave mice again.
Just replace it, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):
Clean it out.

Speaker 3 (01:22:23):
Whatever you got to do, and they're like, okay, what
a thing to drive up to themechanic and be like listen, I
know there's mice in there, Ijust need the oil changed.

Speaker 1 (01:22:30):
And the guys are always like, well, do you park
outside getting in?

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
but somehow they do it and they're like huh, okay,
and they're like well, you livein the country.
No, as a person that lives inthe country in a cold area,
that's, your problem is you'reparking in the garage.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
Leave the garage for the mice park outside maybe put
some mouse just like make sureyou tell your friends before
they get in there one time I wasso angry about it I was in like
the poison section of Walmartlooking at everything and then I
was like, yeah, great idea,julia, put poison in your air
filter in your car.
So you breathe it in when youdrive everywhere.

(01:23:09):
And so I walked away and I waslike I can't.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):
That death certificate is going to be real
weird.

Speaker 1 (01:23:14):
Right, they'll just find me like on the ditch of
some road, just slumped in mycar, and they're going to be
like, oh, she's probably likehigh on drugs no, I poisoned
myself on accident who wouldhave thunk?
But no, it's always aninteresting day here.
I am excited to get back intoit, hopefully once I go to

(01:23:37):
medical school.
I was on a wait list forsomewhere and I was super
excited about it, but with Ithink I mentioned earlier, with
the bill being passed, it's notreally something I can afford to
do right now Because theylimited how much you can take
out in federal loans forstudents, and so I'm gonna try
to work for a little while.
I actually just had aninterview the other day for a

(01:23:58):
full time philanthropistposition through the hospital
and I was like I think myexperience in forensic pathology
and understanding public healthgives me great qualifications
for setting up community healthguidelines Like or not
guidelines, but like events andhelping people, because I know
why y'all die and let me tellyou a lot of the times we can

(01:24:19):
avoid this together, and so Ithink that would be great Jack
of all trades.
Yeah, exactly, I do a little bitof everything.
So hopefully maybe next year orthe year after I'll be able to
reapply and maybe have somemoney saved up, maybe have some
family members willing to, youknow, sign their life away on
some private loans, go fromthere.

(01:24:41):
Maybe I can get somescholarships or something too.
But we'll see.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
We'll start a GoFundMe.
Yes, I mean all our health careis funded by GoFundMe.

Speaker 3 (01:24:49):
now why not oh?

Speaker 1 (01:24:50):
yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:51):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):
Please, I promise I'll be a good doctor.
I promise I'll be really goodabout it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
I got cancer and I'd like to not go bankrupt from it.
I'll be really good about it.
I got cancer and I'd like tonot go bankrupt from it.
Can anybody else help America?

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Oh my gosh, that's always likethe saddest thing ever.

Speaker 3 (01:25:07):
It's the fucking saddest shit.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Yeah, cause it's like that is, no one should have to
worry about that, like I for awhile.
So, like I mentioned earlier, Iget chronic migraines and I had
one that just wouldn't go awayand I had it for like four or
five days and I even texted myfriend.
She's a physician's associateand she works in neuro.
So I was like, hey, should I goto the doctor?
Like am I okay, because I'm notgoing to spend money on it

(01:25:30):
right now if I don't need to.
And I was like, is this ERworthy, or can I just wait to go
see my neuro?
And she's like, oh, no, youshould be fine, like try some of
these things.
And I'm like, sweet, thank you,because I uh, I'm already not
really eating as much, trying tosave money.
So like, if I have to shell outa thousand dollars not even a
thousand way more just to go tothe er, that's not gonna do too

(01:25:52):
great god, that's so crazy it's,it's fucking wild every time
you guys tell me about that it'syeah.

Speaker 3 (01:25:59):
So many people go bankrupt because you, you know,
my kid got this disease or youknow, whatever it is like, all
sorts it's yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:07):
We had in the emergency department a bit ago.
There was this patient who camein who wanted to be seen.
But then they were really upsetbecause they're like I want to
be seen by my family medicinephysician because my insurance
won't cover anything else andwe're like, well, even if they
do come to the ED, it's stillgoing to count as an emergency
department visits.
You still get the bill.
And like you could just tellhow distraught they were trying

(01:26:29):
to decide if they even wantedcare in the first place and like
I think we did have to,unfortunately, call the police
because they were starting tolike threaten people.
They were so upset but I waslike at the end of the day, like
, I get it like should you bethreatening health care staff?

Speaker 3 (01:26:49):
no, but yeah, like that's hard, you might be dying
right now and you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
You have to decide like how much am I dying and how
much money is dying worth likethat's a situation that no one
really should be in and that'ssomething that we would see in
forensics too, like when wewe're doing autopsies.
It would be very preventableconditions that if they could
afford treatment, but they can't, and so then that's something
we would have to get context for, and we would see that and be

(01:27:11):
like, well, yeah, like what arethey supposed to do?
They're in this system that'sscrewed up, that doesn't benefit
them, unfortunately, and liketheir options are limited and
some people in medicine don'tget that, and so they'll be like
well, if you need it, then youneed it, and it's like that's
not how that works, though.
Like a while ago, I had to get abunch of like dental work done

(01:27:32):
because I had one cavity thatgot really, really bad, um, and
so I was like oh yeah, I have togo and get this, but I just
can't afford it right now.
My friend was like but you need, yeah, I have to go in and get
this, but I just can't afford itright now.
My friend was like but you needit.
Like that stuff can spread andit can.
Like you can get cardiac stuff,you can die from it, and I was
like cool, but I don't have $500to shell out to get this fixed
right now, like I can't just,you know, do a little payment

(01:27:55):
plan.
They don't really do that, andso it took them a bit to
understand, and that's what'stough is like that 500 bill will
turn into a 5,000, $10,000 billbecause you waited, because you
had to wait, because you didn'thave right.
It's expensive to be poor, yes,yeah, and it's so frustrating
because I lost my dentalinsurance, I think when I was
like 17 or something, and so Ijust never had it since then and

(01:28:33):
my dad had a good plan for usbecause he was a vet and whatnot
.
But like once I was off it Iwas like, okay, so even like the
tiniest cavity in the wholeworld that you need to get
filled, just to the dentist afew years ago.
So it was like what, seven oreight years later that I finally
decided to go and, thankfully,like I could spread it out.
But it was like, holy crap,there's a lot of money and I
can't afford all of that.
And then I had to get my wisdomteeth removed and then I had an
infection because of that thatkilled off one of my other teeth

(01:28:56):
and I had to get a root canal.
And I was like, are you kiddingme?
Like it doesn't end, it justkeeps building up.
And now you know I probablyhave like $15,000 worth of debt
just in my mouth.
So my teeth are yellow butthey're expensive.
So at least the comfort I haveis if I die and they have to
identify me.
I got a great mouth for them toidentify me with, so there's no

(01:29:19):
worries about me being lostforever.

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
It is a silver lining nonetheless.

Speaker 1 (01:29:23):
Yeah, yeah.
It works out in the end Kind of, as long as I don't, you know,
die horribly somewhere where noone knows who I am, oh shit.

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