May 1, 2025 • 44 mins
What can food tell us about history, identity, and resilience?
In this episode of In My Kitchen with Paula, I sit down with Hélène Jawhara Piñer — historian, professor, and author of Matzah and Flour — to explore the powerful stories behind Sephardic cuisine. With a PhD in medieval history and the history of food, Hélène shares how her research into Inquisition trials and Jewish food traditions unearthed a rich, global culinary heritage that continues to shape how we eat today.
We discuss her personal story, including growing up between French and Andalusian cultures, and how her work connects history, religion, and recipes in surprising and eye-opening ways.
You’ll hear reflections on:
📚 The real history of Sephardic Jews and how their food evolved post-1492
🥖 The cultural and spiritual meaning behind matzah and unleavened bread
🧾 Why Inquisition trials are an unlikely but powerful source of food history
Whether you’re a food lover, history buff, or curious traveler, this episode will leave you inspired to see meals — and menus — through a deeper, more meaningful lens.
HELPFUL LINKS
📘 Get Hélène’s cookbook Matzah and Flour
📕 Check out her first book: Sephardi: Cooking the History
📸 Follow Hélène on Instagram
🧳 Download my free Travel Planning Tool
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Just open up the Apple Podcasts app and go to “In My Kitchen with Paula”. Or, in this episode, click on the 3 dots in the right corner and click on “Go To Show”. At the bottom of the show page, you can rate and review.
SAY HELLO
In My Kitchen creates connections one dish at a time, by exploring culture through food. I do this through unique culinary workshops, speaking engagements, and of course, this podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula Mohammed (00:00):
Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed and welcome to In My
Kitchen with Paula.
This podcast is a gatheringplace for culinary adventures
who love to travel.
Every week, we'll come togetherwith chefs, cookbook authors,
talented home cooks, andeveryone in between to talk
about their story and theirunique dish using food as the
vehicle will take a ride intothe ins and outs of their
(00:21):
culture and country.
Come on, let's get this partystarted.
Welcome back to my Kitchen withPaula.
Thanks for joining me and, uh,listening in.
In this unique episode, I chatwith Hélène Jawhara Piñer, a
historian and food aficionadowith a PhD in medieval history
and history of food.
(00:42):
Hélène introduces us to thevibrant world of Sephardic
cuisine, sharing stories fromher new cookbook, Matzah and
Flour.
This was such an eye-openerconversation and I learned so
much, and I hope you do too.
Of course we also get a local'sinsight into the beautiful
Bordeaux region of France.
(01:04):
Welcome to the show, Hélène,I'm so excited to have you here.
Helene Jawhara Pina (01:09):
I am super happy to be here as well.
Paula Mohammed (01:12):
Hélène has a PhD in medieval history and history
of food.
She teaches in two differentFrench universities, the
University of Tours andBordeaux, Montaigne.
Excuse my pronounciation.
Hélène has also lectured atUniversity of Pennsylvania,
Yale, UCLA, Berkeley, Bar-Ilan,and is a Broom and Alan Fellow
(01:33):
from the American SephardiFederation.
Hélène is the author ofSephardi Cooking: the History.
Jews, Food, and Spain.
And most recently, Matzah andFlour.
Hélène, I am so curious to knowhow one develops this interest
in medieval history and historyof food, but I'm going to come
back to that.
(01:54):
First just to make sure we'reall coming from the same place,
can you briefly explain to ourlisteners, uh, who are the
Sephardic Jews and what isSephardic cuisine?
And am I pronouncing itcorrectly?
Helene Jawhara Pina (02:06):
Yes, the Sephardic Jews are the Jews of
Spain in the diaspora.
So all the Jews that, uh, since1492, uh, were expelled from
Spain and Portugal and had tosettle in all other countries
like Morocco, like Nigeria, likethe Balkans, Italy, but also
(02:29):
the countries on the other sideof the Atlantic.
All those people are SephardicJews.
Paula Mohammed (02:36):
Great.
And Sephardic cuisine, Iimagine is the dishes that came
from, uh, the time before theywere exiled.
Helene Jawhara Pina (02:47):
Yes.
Well, Sephardic cuisine, infact, people think that, uh,
Sephardic cuisine is, mainlyonly one kind of cuisine, but
it's not the case.
So there are so many differentkinds of Sephardic cuisines that
are related to the places wherethe Sephardic Jews settled.
So we have a Sephardic cuisinefrom Morocco.
We have a Sephardic cuisinefrom Italy.
(03:09):
We have a Sephardic cuisinefrom Mexico.
So it really depends of thedifferent locations.
Before 1492, we only use theterm of the cuisine of the Jews
of Spain, or the cuisine of theJews of Portugal, because the
word sephardi, is really relatedto everything that happened
(03:30):
after 1492.
Paula Mohammed (03:32):
Thank you for that.
Now I am dying to hear moreabout your story.
If you could share with us,first of all where you're
speaking to us from, and then alittle bit about yourself and
how you found yourself goingdown this path of medieval
history, the history of food,and the Sephardic culinary
world.
Helene Jawhara Pina (03:51):
Well, I'm talking from France.
Southwest France, uh, inBordeaux.
So I'm very close to Spain.
My family from my father's sideis from Andalusia.
So we live in the Gibraltar.
So it's, so far we have Moroccojust in front of our house
where we live.
And we're Sephardic.
(04:12):
And on my mother's side, theyare French.
My mother is French, and welive in Normandy.
So not so far from Paris.
On my mother's side, they areabsolutely not Spanish at all.
My interest in medieval historyand history of food is it's
something that I have alwaysbeen interesting in those two
(04:35):
topics.
I love history and I'm a foodlover.
On the both sides of my family,we love eating and they are on
my mother's side, there are alot of professionals like bakers
and caterers, and we loveeating.
We love those, you know, wheneverybody meets for big lunch or
(04:55):
big meals.
It is a very interesting andgreat time.
We, we love spending together.
I think I should add thereligious topic on the interest.
You were asking about medievalhistory and history of food and
my interest on religiouspractices in the, this is a good
trial, in fact, to understandmy interest in this.
Paula Mohammed (05:16):
It sounds like you grew up with food playing a
large role in your family, andwere there other cultures that
influenced the way you cook now?
Helene Jawhara Pina (05:27):
This is a good question.
Well, I told you on my mother'sside, they are super French.
So, so they grew up inNormandy.
There are a lot of dishes withheavy cream and butter, you
know, those kind of dishes, likesuper heavy dishes.
But I also discovered that,they were Ashkenazi from the
(05:51):
mother of my grandfather on mymother's side.
We did not know about thissince recently.
There is this very deep Frenchculinary tradition, but on my
father's side, this is totallythe opposite or it's totally a
different kind of food culture.
Like we're eating a lot ofpeppers and a lot of meatballs
(06:12):
and a lot of olive oil andgarlic and eggplants.
I grew up between those twodifferent field of food
practices and food contributionsand this made what I am today.
Paula Mohammed (06:26):
How do you express your love of cooking?
What does that look like foryou with your family now?
Helene Jawhara Pina (06:31):
What is quite funny is I don't cook
French dishes.
That's a bit weird, sayingthis, but I, I'm not super fan
of French food.
but this is not the case forpastries and bread.
I love Mediterranean dishes,like with a lot of vegetables
(06:52):
and a lot of olive oil andgarlic and eggplants and those
kind of dishes.
Even if I'm a good combinationbetween those two worlds, I am
more on the, you know, southside.
Paula Mohammed (07:05):
Do you do most of the cooking?
Helene Jawhara Pina (07:06):
Oh yes.
I cook all time.
It's super hard for me when Igo on, you know, I'm on vacation
or I go somewhere for holidaysand I'm not in my kitchen.
In fact, this is funny because,or I am in my kitchen cooking
and experiencing new recipes, orI am in my office working on
Inquisition trials.
(07:26):
So, you know, I just spend mytime from one place to another,
but this is what I used to doand I am so sad when after like
a couple of days, I was not ableto cook or to create new
recipes.
Paula Mohammed (07:41):
I can relate to that.
I just, I mentioned to youbefore we started recording that
we had just been in Paris andPortugal, and I hadn't been back
to Paris for a long time.
And my regret is that we werestaying in a hotel room and I
really wish we had a kitchenbecause I forgot how much I love
going through the marketsthere.
And, and I, I also realizethere's as many bad bistros in
(08:02):
Paris as there are good ones.
Helene Jawhara Pina (08:04):
I agree.
Paula Mohammed (08:05):
Thank you for letting us get to know you a
little bit more before we diveinto the rest.
I have to tell you, before Imet you, before I was connected
to who you are, my son and Iwere talking and I said to him,
"you know, I really wish that inschools when they taught
history, they also taught thehistory of food of that era and
that location and that period atthe same time, because there's
(08:28):
so much that we learn from thehistory of food" and then I
discovered you and yourcookbooks and you just prove my
point once again.
So if there's any teachers outthere, I think you should reach
out to Hélène and maybe work ona curriculum that can go through
the school systems.
Helene Jawhara Pina (08:45):
Oh yes.
I teach medieval history and Iteach history of food.
But I am also a Spanish teacherin high school.
And I have this opportunity totalk about Spanish culture, of
the culture of all the Spanishspeaking world and I always talk
about the relevance of food,uh, in the time of understanding
(09:08):
the Spanish world culture.
So yes, it's interesting.
You can just give work on adifferent angle and you can
learn so much about theterritory, the country, where
they were speaking and they arespeaking Spanish through food.
And this, in fact, it's, youknow, a plus to understand.
Paula Mohammed (09:29):
Matzah and Flour, your latest cookbook.
Before we dive further into it,can you just share with us,
what is matzah?
Because not everybody mayunderstand what that is.
Helene Jawhara Pina (09:41):
Good.
Yes, you're right.
Matzah is unleavened bread.
Bread that did not rise.
So you can make, uh, matzahfrom different kinds of flour.
Today when we think aboutmatzah, it's obviously wheat,
(10:03):
but it was absolutely not thecase.
And that's why I also by theway, wrote the book.
Uh, so matzah, it's just flourand water.
Basically, it's just this.
And it is obviously deeplyconnected to the Jewish people
and the celebration of Passover.
Paula Mohammed (10:22):
And can it be any type of flour?
Helene Jawhara Pina (10:24):
Oh yes.
In fact, nowadays we think thatit's only wheat flour, but it
can be made of absolutely allthe different flours that
exists.
And my cookbook, just tell thestory of all those different
kinds of matzah made withdifferent kinds of flour.
And they are matzah.
If they did not rise, it'smatzah.
(10:46):
And if they are made under 18minutes, they're considered as
matzah.
Paula Mohammed (10:53):
Interesting.
Under 18 minutes.
Why the 18 minutes?
Helene Jawhara Pina (10:57):
Because it's the time, uh, that in
Judaism, it is considered thatif you go beyond the 18 minutes,
so the combination betweenflour and water, when we start
to knead the dough.
So after 18 minutes, it startsto rise.
(11:17):
So as we do not want it torise, you have to make
everything from the very, verybeginning to the end, which
includes the baking time.
It has to be under 18 minutes.
Paula Mohammed (11:33):
That's actually very efficient and doable for
any meal as well.
I like that.
You mentioned you wrote thebook because matzah is not
flour.
So were you on a mission toeducate people on what matzah
is, or why did you write thecookbook?
Helene Jawhara Pina (11:47):
Writing another cookbook just after my
first one, Sephardic Cooking: The History. (11:50):
undefined
This was not something that Ihave been thinking about.
I was thinking about justwriting another one.
I wrote Sephardi, Sephardi waspublished in 2021 and this one
only came few years after.
But when I was finishingSephardic Cooking: The History,
I realized that I had leftoverrecipes or information, not
(12:14):
recipes, but mainly informationsthat were dealing with this
unleavened bread.
So I decided to just to gatherall the information I had and to
write Matzah and Flourcookbook.
And you are right, my goal wasalso to share with the people,
not maybe to instruct, but toshare with the people what I
(12:36):
have been learning about thedifferent kinds of matzah which
are related to the Sephardihistory.
Paula Mohammed (12:45):
And just so people know I have the cookbook
and it's a really interestingbook.
This is not a book that's justa collection of recipes that
were left over.
When I was reading it, I feltlike I was learning history,
religious studies and recipesthat I could use right away.
I was blown away with yourlevel of research, but I guess
(13:07):
that's what a PhD person is allabout.
I learned so much and the rulesaround Passover for example,
because we just had Passover andEaster, so I was very
interested in that.
I was actually felt a bitembarrassed how little I knew
after I was reading your book.
So anyone who's interested inhistory, religious studies, and
(13:28):
matzah and flour.
I highly recommend the book.
How long did it take you to dothe research for this book?
I understand that it was kindof carried over from your
previous one, but there's adepth to it that I haven't seen
before in other books like this.
Helene Jawhara Pina (13:43):
Matzah and Flour, and Sephardi, they are
both unconventional cookbooksbecause it's not like, you know,
you have the recipe, you havethe process, and that's all.
So they are made from myresearch as a PhD.
And it's hard to answer thequestion concerning how many
time it took me to write thiscookbook because the Sephardi
(14:06):
and Matzah and Flour are part ofmy research since I am a PhD
candidate.
I'm always working.
I'm always investigating.
It took me so much time.
I don't know, maybe four, threeyears maybe.
I am not inventing the dishes.
First, I have to find thesource to read it and, you know,
to cross my fingers and hope,hopefully I find something
(14:31):
interesting for me.
And then to translate it, sothe research is like 80% of my
work.
Paula Mohammed (14:37):
Were you a practicing chef as well before
you did your PhD?
Helene Jawhara Pina (14:42):
In fact, during my PhD, I started to work
also as a chef, but only forJewish families because they ask
me something, always specialkinds of cooking.
But also they ask me to like togive a talk and to presentation
of what are my research dealingwith.
(15:05):
And so I do not have arestaurant, but I used to cook
for people as well.
Paula Mohammed (15:10):
Reading Matzah and Flour, I came across the,
well, the first sectionobviously, and it's about the
old and holy bread.
Can you share a little bitabout the research where you
reference Dr.
Cynthia Schaefer Elliot ondomestic cooking in the time of
the Hebrew Bible?
I find it personallyfascinating to know how people
cook and their daily routine.
(15:32):
Just when I go to anothercountry, let alone back in
history.
Helene Jawhara Pina (15:37):
Yes, I agree.
It's not that easy to find goodreferences concerning food
practices and unfortunately thisis something that today, you
have so many food writers thatstart sharing information that
are not true.
(15:58):
This is a really big problem,very big issue that
unfortunately also happens a lotconcerning Jewish food.
I don't know why, but it'sreally, it's not good at all.
Anyway, so when I work and domy research, I always reach out
(16:19):
to people that are PhDs as welland for certain kinds of
informations.
It really depends of what youare looking for.
So you can learn so much frominteresting and fascinating
chefs.
You can learn so much thanks toobviously other scholars like
(16:39):
me from their research.
And you can learn so much aswell concerning your experience,
your own experience eating, butalso just talking with people.
I never met Cynthia, mycolleague in person.
Nevertheless, I read her bookand I was also in Tel Aviv, few
(17:01):
years ago in Asif where I wasable to see an exhibition on the
breads in Jerusalem.
And I was fascinated also bythis and it's an exhibition made
by scholars as well.
So that's why I decided toquote and to highlight Cynthia's
work.
Paula Mohammed (17:20):
What was domestic cooking like back then?
I imagine people weren'tcooking for the love of it?
Helene Jawhara Pina (17:26):
Well, easy food, you know?
At that time you did not havethat much, and that much
interest as well.
So all the products werealready known at that time.
But they were food that we arestill using today.
The most important thing isthat the cooking and the cuisine
was something very simple, notsomething complicated.
(17:47):
And the way the things werebaked was more interesting.
The process is more interestingthan dish itself.
Paula Mohammed (17:55):
And would that process be tied to religious
aspects or was it just theprocess of cooking?
Helene Jawhara Pina (18:02):
Well, it depends on the kind of source
you are talking about.
So obviously they are relatedto Judaism.
Obviously you're gonna find,you're gonna read and you're
gonna find information that arereally tied to Jewish laws or
the krout, or the dietary foodlaw.
So it really depends of whatkind of source you are reading.
Paula Mohammed (18:23):
I have found from when I started In My
Kitchen and then it evolved andnow doing the podcast, the role
of hospitality around the worldis highly prioritized and valued
especially compared to NorthAmerica and everybody that I
talk to almost we get into aconversation about hospitality.
(18:45):
With Leila, one of our hosts,she's from Rasht, Iran.
Even in times of adversity,there's still this, your door is
always open.
There's always, room at thetable for another guest.
Going back in history, in yourresearch, did you come across
this at all in terms of howpeople ate together, the role of
food in people's lives, wasthere celebrations, gatherings?
(19:08):
I'm curious if you came acrossanything like that in terms of
the role of hospitality.
Helene Jawhara Pina (19:15):
Obviously I found this kind of information,
but the result is totallydifferent because it really
depends of the place you aretalking about and it really
depends of the period you aretalking about.
And it also really depends ofwho were the rulers of this
territory at that time, so Icould share three different
(19:39):
point of view.
First thing is that beforethere were Sephardic Jews, the
Jews of Spain, there areevidence of the lives of the
Jews in Spain since the secondcentury.
So at that time there were alsosmall Christian communities,
and obviously there were noMuslim at that time because they
they only came in the eighthcentury.
(20:00):
When the three religions wereliving together and they were
living good together, it wasuntil the 10th century.
Until the 10th century, therewere no big problems.
But then the problems came inthe 11th century when a Berber
(20:21):
dynasty from Morocco started torule the country.
So the country, I mean, what isSpain nowadays?
Because they had a verydogmatic view of Islam.
And so that's when started theproblems.
But it was less problematicthan when the Christians started
to rule the country in the 15thcentury.
(20:43):
So this means that there iswhat we call acculturation when
you share your culture withother people.
This can happen when oneculture does not fear about the
new culture who is coming.
This happened when everybody'sliving together with almost no
(21:08):
problem.
But when someone comes and thenew culture is coming and it's
very bad.
It's so too hard to livetogether, that's when you can
talk about non hospitality infood.
I have been able to find thisin sources that were dealing
with the food practices of theMuslims, who were scared about
(21:31):
the food practices of theChristians and of the Jews.
And I have been also able tofind this avoiding this
hospitality in Jewish sourcesthat you really don't want to
accept some bread from anon-Jewish person.
Things started to be very hardconcerning food hospitality in
(21:53):
Spain since the 11th, 12thcentury to, to the 18th century.
Paula Mohammed (22:01):
Wow.
Maybe just a brief historylesson, if you don't mind, on
the Inquisition trials.
Helene Jawhara Pina (22:07):
Well, the Inquisition is a judicial court
created by the Christian, by theCatholics monarchs in 1478.
Even if they were not rulingall of Spain at that time,
because they were only rulingthe totality of Spain in 1492.
But they decided to create thiscourt, this judicial court to
(22:33):
unify Spain under one thing,which was Catholicism.
Muslims and Jews were notallowed to practice their
religion for the Jews since1492.
Where they had to fled Spain orthey had to convert.
(22:56):
And the Muslims were allowed tostay in Spain since 1609.
The goal of the Court of theInquisition was to spy on all
the Jews called the ConversoJews or the Crypto Jews.
This mean that also themariscos, so all the people who
(23:16):
were pretending officially to bea good Christian, but in fact,
they were still practicing theirreligion and mainly they were
Jews.
Paula Mohammed (23:30):
When we go to Spain, will I see Sephardic
cuisine in Spain?
And what would that look like?
Helene Jawhara Pina (23:36):
Oh wow.
I wish I could tell youeverywhere.
But this would be a big lie.
Obviously if you go more to thesouth, you're gonna find more
evidences of our Jewish foodpractices, and show the dishes
that are still made.
I think that maybe Andalusiaobviously it's like the most
(24:00):
important place if you want tofind some Sephardic dishes and
the cities of Cordoba and thecity of Seville may be the two
most important ones.
But also the Gibraltar.
So it's a rock calledGibraltar, which is not a
Spanish territory, but it'sBritish territory.
(24:21):
But nevertheless, there isinteresting Jewish community
there.
Unfortunately, if you go toSpain and try to find some
Jewish dishes, you are gonnafind them but they won't be
simple as Jewish dishes.
For example, Passover andEaster just finished three days
(24:41):
ago.
You have, for example, in thesouth of Spain, a dish that is
commonly made for Easter, so bythe Christians, which is called
orejuelas.
It's a fried rolled pastry, andwe have evidence that orejuelas
were made by Sephardic Jews.
We have many different kinds ofsources that say that orejuelas
(25:05):
were made by the SephardicJews, and now it's like
Christian dish.
At that point that orejuelasare mainly made for Easter.
Then you have also for the sameperiod.
Yes, for Easter.
You have this, what we callMona de Pasqua, but it's like a
big loaf of bread like brioche.
(25:28):
And you have an egg just in themiddle with a cross just over.
And this is what Sephardic Jewsused to prepare for Purim
effect.
It's just exactly the samething.
You have so many things, if yougo to Cordoba, you have those
fried eggplants with honey over.
(25:48):
This is Sephardic as well, butpeople do not know about this.
Paula Mohammed (25:52):
The dishes are there but people wouldn't know
necessarily.
What about in Portugal?
I just came back from Portugaland now I'm thinking about what
I ate.
What would it look like there?
Helene Jawhara Pina (26:01):
Sometimes similar, but with Portugal we
have a bit different story,because the Jews of Spain when
the Inquisition started in this,the Inquisition started first
in Spain.
So when you started, all theJews just decided to cross the
border and to go to Portugal,and then few years after the
Inquisition started as well inPortugal, so they decided to be
(26:24):
back to Spain.
So there is this sharedculinary dishes, but I would
talk about this sausage calledalheira.
Which is a sausage, which is abit special because it is
sometimes smoked but dried one,and it is made with bread and
(26:44):
with chicken meat inside and nopork.
And this is something thatnowadays you can still find in
northern eastern Portugal.
It's one of the key evidence ofJewish culinary heritage of the
Sephardi because it has no porkinside.
Paula Mohammed (27:03):
We had the sausages made with the bread.
It was in the Alentejo region,so east of Evora.
So yeah, I lived in Portugalfor a little bit in 1998, but I
was on the coast.
I'd never had this sauce typeof sausage.
Very different.
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:21):
It's really from on the other side,
Paula Mohammed (27:24):
Ah...
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:24):
The Spanish border side.
Paula Mohammed (27:27):
That makes a lot of sense.
That's exactly where we were.
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:29):
Oh, yes, so totally you were in the right
place.
Paula Mohammed (27:32):
This is interesting because I hope more
people might listen to thispodcast episode and do their own
research on Sephardic cuisineand look for it in their
travels.
Because now you've got methinking also about Goa on the
coast of India, which was underPortuguese rule for a long time.
So I assume that we would seeinfluences of Sephardic cuisine
(27:54):
there too.
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:55):
Yes.
Well, this is something that Iused to repeat "when people
move, food move", and you knowwhat?
When you have been expelledfrom a place you have been
living all your entire life, youand the previous generations,
you ancestors, and you have toleave this, uh, country.
(28:17):
It's so hurtful.
It's so much pain.
So what you wanna do, and thisis the case for what happened
centuries before, but this isalso what is happening with some
refugees nowadays.
So when you are expelled orwhen you have to leave the place
where you have been living allyour entire life, the first
(28:40):
thing you want do when youarrive in the new territory is
to recreate what like I couldcall a safe food or what makes
you more comfortable, or whatmakes you feel good and better.
And food is this.
So when the Jews were expelledfrom Portugal and they just
(29:01):
settled in Goa or in every placeis what they wanted to do is to
recreate those dishes becausejust to feel better or like
home.
Paula Mohammed (29:12):
A taste of home.
It's one thing I really loveabout living in Canada.
I'm in Vancouver, so on theWest coast, but we have such a
rich, multicultural environmentwhere we are and the foods from
different cultures iscelebrated, and people more so
than ever are interested inlearning about the food and then
(29:34):
learning about culture throughfood.
I think food is such an amazingway to learn about other people
and literally break breadtogether without any pressure or
any politics or it's just aboutgood times.
And getting to know somebody onthat level.
I think what you're doing isamazing and just in the short
(29:57):
period reading your cookbooksand meeting you and doing this
interview, it's opened up awhole other world to me that's
definitely gonna be on my radar.
A different way of even when Itravel now I'm gonna think about
the history of the country thatI went to and seek out those
different influences in thefood.
Now I'm curious because I justsort of went off on my own
philosophy on food.
(30:17):
Do you have a philosophy onfood that has guided you through
what you do?
Helene Jawhara Pina (30:22):
I'm totally fascinated about inquisition
trials and learning from historyand everywhere I go, when I
have to go for conferences orjust visiting, I am always
fascinated by learning more.
And also the way that peopleuse certain kinds of ingredients
differently from the way I useto use them.
(30:43):
And this is actually happeningwith corn.
I just so intrigued about cornand the way that you can use
corn in different kinds ofdishes and it tastes differently
according to the way you usedthe corn.
And with the chilies as well.
So those ingredients, I amreally intrigued by.
(31:05):
And this is something I love todiscover when I go to a
country.
I do not bring, you know, like,I bring some clothes as this
would be like.
But I mainly bring food.
Because I didn't want to takethem back.
And I bring some seeds from,this is what I did with Mexico
when I was in Mexico.
So I brought some seeds, Ibrought some chilies and I
(31:28):
brought from things fromeverywhere and just, I'm so
nostalgic when I opened the bagand see.
Wow, that's crazy, it's likepart of myself is still there.
Paula Mohammed (31:37):
Have you ever baked or cooked with acorn
flour?
Do you use acorn flour?
Helene Jawhara Pina (31:43):
Acorn flour.
What is, what would they,
Paula Mohammed (31:45):
Acorn off the oak trees?
I learned about the acorn flourfrom a fellow named Alfredo in
Portugal, and he was a podcastguest and they're using acorns
more and more as a way to kindof live sustainably with the
environment.
So I did some research on it;it's supposed to be very good
(32:07):
for you as well.
There's lots of health benefitsto it.
And then there's a traditionalPortuguese acorn stew.
I was curious if it's somethingthat you've used or if you came
across in your research at all.
Helene Jawhara Pina (32:18):
I did not, but I am definitely going to
make some research.
Paula Mohammed (32:23):
You know, the Black Pigs in Portugal, it used
to only be used to feed the pigsand that's why they tasted so
good.
But now they're using it as asustainable way of cooking and
lots of health benefits.
Helene Jawhara Pina (32:36):
Okay.
I know what you mean.
Yeah, we have this practice inFrance to feed the pork.
Paula Mohammed (32:43):
Right.
Helene Jawhara Pina (32:45):
I did not know the word in English.
But I know what you mean and Iknow that some people used to
make some flour from this.
but I only know about this forfeeding animals.
Paula Mohammed (33:00):
See what you come up with.
Might be a new cookbook foryou.
Helene Jawhara Pina (33:03):
Yes.
I have so much ideas you cannotimagine.
Paula Mohammed (33:06):
One of my questions is, what is next for
you?
Helene Jawhara Pina (33:09):
Just before logging for this podcast, I was
working on a trial.
I discovered when I was at Pennlast year.
I spent five weeks at theUniversity of Pennsylvania
because I got a fellowship towork there in the archives on
Inquisition trials.
I did not know that what I wasabout to discover because they
asked me to come and to read andto be able to do some research
(33:31):
there.
So I was super lucky becauseafter one week, I was able to
find one trial a huge one, thatwas dealing with pork lard and
food in general.
And I am working on this one.
You know, it's a huge work andI want to publish it.
So it's gonna be focused on therelevance of pork and lard in
(33:57):
the food practices of a woman,especially one family and one
woman, and the role of women inkeeping the food identity of her
family and the way it's herlife.
In fact, since she is caught tocome and to be sentenced and to
(34:19):
listen to what is going tohappen to her in the court of
the Inquisition in Toledo, 16thcentury.
It's her story through, youknow, her food practices, her
housekeeping practices, hereverything.
It is just crazy.
So I want to publish this bookto offer transcription in
Spanish, in modern Spanish, andthe translation in English, and
(34:44):
also like a work on this.
Paula Mohammed (34:47):
That fascinates me, knowing and having insight
into those practices and herrole, and then the story behind
it makes it almost like a novel.
So when you do this research,in the Inquisition trials, are
you coming across recipes?
How would her notes have beenpreserved?
Where would she have left themthat you would come across them?
(35:10):
Does that make sense?
Helene Jawhara Pina (35:12):
Yes, it's interesting.
You never come with recipes inthe way there is a list of
ingredients with amounts andwith a name.
It's never like this, becauseit's not a cookbook.
And there was no Jewishcookbook.
It was, would've been worseever if the, for the Jews at
that time to just to write acookbook.
(35:32):
Because they were alreadyidentified as Jewish for their
food practices.
So just guess what would havehappened if they would've just
write a cookbook?
So when you work on inquisitiontrial, so it start judicial
text.
So you, you know, about thedishes because sometime you have
(35:54):
the name of the dish likeadefina, huevos camenados,
tortitas, or like unleavenedbread or the bread of the Jews
or some things like this.
And then sometime you have theprocess, but you never have the
amounts.
Obviously, you have theingredients that are used in the
recipe, but you do not have therecipe as you can find in a
(36:17):
cookbook with a process, list ofingredients.
It's not like this because itwas not the purpose of this.
You can learn a lot concerningthe food practices of the
people.
So in that case of the ConversoJews, the crypto Jews, but also
I was able to identify, to makea list of all the dishes that
(36:41):
the Christians were makingbecause obviously she denied
cooking, those lard cakes and apig and piglet.
When she's avoiding this so youcan understand that those were
the practices of the Christians.
So, it's so interesting.
(37:01):
It's like, you know, a puzzle.
It's just crazy.
It's like a novel and I wish itcould be just transformed into,
a movie because a series movie.
It's just crazy.
The story of this woman makesme totally crazy.
It's fascinating.
Paula Mohammed (37:17):
Well, I'm dying to find out, but I know I have
to wait for the book probablywhat happened to her.
I can see this as a movie.
I can,
Helene Jawhara Pina (37:26):
It is, it's totally.
It's really a movie.
Paula Mohammed (37:30):
That's awesome.
Now I have to take advantage ofthe fact that you are from
French Heritage as well, andthat you are in Bordeaux.
And ask you a little bit aboutBordeaux from a local's
perspective and what's it likethere, where do you live and
what's your day like today?
Helene Jawhara Pina (37:48):
Well, I live in Bordeaux since 11 years
right now.
I was living very close toParis before.
I was born there and then Idecided to move just to be
closer to my Spanish side.
So life in Bordeaux is reallygood.
So we have a good weather.
It's totally different fromwhere I was living.
(38:11):
I teach at the university hereI live, I teach medieval history
and I also teach in high schoolSpanish.
And there is a small Jewishcommunity here.
It's a good place.
We have the city of the wine,so we have so many tourists,
American tourists, and Canadiantourists coming even more, more
(38:32):
and more every year.
And it's a really good city.
I highly recommend people tocome here.
It's much more, it's betterthan Paris maybe right now.
Oh, for the weather at least.
And for the food, because wehave very special and good food
here.
In the south, in Bordeaux, wehave wine mainly.
We have what we call canele,it's a pastry.
(38:54):
And we have foie gras,obviously, foie gras we have
everywhere.
We also have good cheeses andgood bread and we do not have
like, those dishes likecassoulet or beef bourginon.
We have this, but it's not ourspecialty.
But cassoulet, it's very, youknow, a special dish, that is
(39:17):
made mainly Toulouse, it's notso far from, uh, from Bordeaux.
I would say that, definitelysay that, fois gras and wine are
maybe one of our best And youknow, there are a lot of things
from Spain as well, so harm orthings like this.
Okay.
Paula Mohammed (39:36):
And do you go over to Spain quite a bit?
Helene Jawhara Pina (39:38):
Yes.
It's only two hours from home.
So if you go to the first bigplace, like it's like San
Sebastian.
San Sebastian is two hours fromhome.
I used to go, but you know,Northern Spain is totally
different from where I live inSpain, in Andalusia we are like,
(40:00):
you know, the opposite.
I like Spanish people from thenorth of Spain, obviously, but
it's just, we are in the south.
In, we are like, whoa, superopen.
We like talking to everyone.
We like just, we speak, superloud.
Paula Mohammed (40:18):
Are you familiar with an area, uh, Biscarosse?
Helene Jawhara Pina (40:21):
Biscarrosse it's like one hour.
Paula Mohammed (40:23):
In 2013, I was there at Cottage du Lac with my
two little kids We were therefor three weeks and a little
cottage.
It was just amazing.
I love the area.
And we took the kids in thesand dunes.
The big sand dunes.
And then we did a road trip toSan Sebastian.
And, uh, that is, I mean, I, wewere just on the very central
(40:47):
area, of course, and eating allthe pinxos and trying the food,
but I can't wait to go backthere.
I really can't wait.
Helene Jawhara Pina (40:54):
It's a good place.
It's a good place.
Biscarrosse.
It is like, like one hour fromhome.
It's a good city.
It's sunny and you have, youknow, the sea and the lake and
it's really good.
And San Sebastian is really,it's close, like one hour from
Biscarosse, so, and it's totallydifferent.
It's really Spanish.
Really Northern Spanish.
Paula Mohammed (41:15):
Gotcha.
Helene Jawhara Pina (41:15):
You should come to where you should come.
You should come, you know, inAndalusia though you, you can
get even better what I mean.
Paula Mohammed (41:22):
Hélène, one thing that we normally do is
each guest talks about a recipe.
Is there one that you wouldlike to share?
Helene Jawhara Pina (41:28):
I like this one.
It's Pascua Do Pão Asmo.
It's from Brazil.
It's on page 95.
it's called Pascua Do Pão Asmo,bread from Bahia.
I really like this recipe.
It's a really easy one withvery simple ingredients that it
has only flour and water.
(41:49):
But you have this story andit's important to me to
highlight as well the existenceof Sephardic Jews in Brazil.
Paula Mohammed (41:58):
Hélène, it has been such a pleasure and so much
fun to chat with you.
Thank you for, the time andsharing your story and cookbook
with us.
Helene Jawhara Pina (42:06):
Thank you Paula.
It was so great.
I had a very good time with youfor this podcast.
Thank you for having me.
Paula Mohammed (42:12):
And for people who want to follow along and
maybe buy, your cookbooks aswell, what's the best way for
them to find you and follow you?
Helene Jawhara Pina (42:20):
They can follow me on Instagram, so it's
helenejawharapina, also my firstname and last name.
And this is the best way toreach out to me if they have any
questions.
And if they want to have likevideos and of, you know, me
cooking or telling the story ofthe Sephardic Jews.
And then for my books, they cango to their local bookstore,
(42:44):
they can find the books like,you know, it really depends on
where they are living, but theycan find it super easily and
they can order it if it's not instore or they can just buy it
on Amazon and other platforms.
It's super easy.
Paula Mohammed (42:59):
I will put all that information in the show
notes.
Thank so much Hélène.
Lovely meeting you.
Helene Jawhara Pina (43:04):
Yes, me too.
It was one of the best, I thinkthe best podcast I did.
It was so natural.
So that's great.
Paula Mohammed (43:11):
I hope we stay in touch and I can't wait to
read about your next project.
Helene Jawhara Pina (43:15):
My pleasure.
Thank Paula.
Bye.
Paula Mohammed (43:18):
What a lovely person.
Am I the only one right now whowants to go and get a PhD in
the history of food?
This conversation really openedmy eyes to the history of food,
introduced me to Sephardiccuisine and the diaspora, and it
will influence how I travel inthe future, I think.
I'm going to be much morecurious.
Well, I know I'm already muchmore curious about the
(43:38):
historical role of food in theplaces I visit.
I loved Hélène's line "foodmoves when and where the people
move".
Something that was kind ofbizarre is I realized after the
fact, later in the day, when werecorded this, that April 24th,
the day that we did thisinterview, was also Holocaust
(43:59):
Remembrance Day.
Interesting how that lined up,but I think it's important that
we never forget and just want toacknowledge that date.
I'm glad that this podcastepisode happened on April 24th,
2025.
I would love to hear yourthoughts on this episode, and if
you enjoyed it, please rate andreview it on Apple Podcasts.
(44:20):
Feel free to email me atpaula@inmykitchen.ca and sign up
for my handy Travel plannertool.
You'll also receive weeklynewsletters from me that include
the recipes from my podcastguests.
Happy cooking, happy travels.
Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed and welcome to In My
Kitchen with Paula.
This podcast is a gatheringplace for culinary adventures
who love to travel.
Every week, we'll come togetherwith chefs, cookbook authors,
talented home cooks, andeveryone in between to talk
about their story and theirunique dish using food as the
vehicle will take a ride intothe ins and outs of their
(00:21):
culture and country.
Come on, let's get this partystarted.
Welcome back to my Kitchen withPaula.
Thanks for joining me and, uh,listening in.
In this unique episode, I chatwith Hélène Jawhara Piñer, a
historian and food aficionadowith a PhD in medieval history
and history of food.
(00:42):
Hélène introduces us to thevibrant world of Sephardic
cuisine, sharing stories fromher new cookbook, Matzah and
Flour.
This was such an eye-openerconversation and I learned so
much, and I hope you do too.
Of course we also get a local'sinsight into the beautiful
Bordeaux region of France.
(01:04):
Welcome to the show, Hélène,I'm so excited to have you here.
Helene Jawhara Pina (01:09):
I am super happy to be here as well.
Paula Mohammed (01:12):
Hélène has a PhD in medieval history and history
of food.
She teaches in two differentFrench universities, the
University of Tours andBordeaux, Montaigne.
Excuse my pronounciation.
Hélène has also lectured atUniversity of Pennsylvania,
Yale, UCLA, Berkeley, Bar-Ilan,and is a Broom and Alan Fellow
(01:33):
from the American SephardiFederation.
Hélène is the author ofSephardi Cooking: the History.
Jews, Food, and Spain.
And most recently, Matzah andFlour.
Hélène, I am so curious to knowhow one develops this interest
in medieval history and historyof food, but I'm going to come
back to that.
(01:54):
First just to make sure we'reall coming from the same place,
can you briefly explain to ourlisteners, uh, who are the
Sephardic Jews and what isSephardic cuisine?
And am I pronouncing itcorrectly?
Helene Jawhara Pina (02:06):
Yes, the Sephardic Jews are the Jews of
Spain in the diaspora.
So all the Jews that, uh, since1492, uh, were expelled from
Spain and Portugal and had tosettle in all other countries
like Morocco, like Nigeria, likethe Balkans, Italy, but also
(02:29):
the countries on the other sideof the Atlantic.
All those people are SephardicJews.
Paula Mohammed (02:36):
Great.
And Sephardic cuisine, Iimagine is the dishes that came
from, uh, the time before theywere exiled.
Helene Jawhara Pina (02:47):
Yes.
Well, Sephardic cuisine, infact, people think that, uh,
Sephardic cuisine is, mainlyonly one kind of cuisine, but
it's not the case.
So there are so many differentkinds of Sephardic cuisines that
are related to the places wherethe Sephardic Jews settled.
So we have a Sephardic cuisinefrom Morocco.
We have a Sephardic cuisinefrom Italy.
(03:09):
We have a Sephardic cuisinefrom Mexico.
So it really depends of thedifferent locations.
Before 1492, we only use theterm of the cuisine of the Jews
of Spain, or the cuisine of theJews of Portugal, because the
word sephardi, is really relatedto everything that happened
(03:30):
after 1492.
Paula Mohammed (03:32):
Thank you for that.
Now I am dying to hear moreabout your story.
If you could share with us,first of all where you're
speaking to us from, and then alittle bit about yourself and
how you found yourself goingdown this path of medieval
history, the history of food,and the Sephardic culinary
world.
Helene Jawhara Pina (03:51):
Well, I'm talking from France.
Southwest France, uh, inBordeaux.
So I'm very close to Spain.
My family from my father's sideis from Andalusia.
So we live in the Gibraltar.
So it's, so far we have Moroccojust in front of our house
where we live.
And we're Sephardic.
(04:12):
And on my mother's side, theyare French.
My mother is French, and welive in Normandy.
So not so far from Paris.
On my mother's side, they areabsolutely not Spanish at all.
My interest in medieval historyand history of food is it's
something that I have alwaysbeen interesting in those two
(04:35):
topics.
I love history and I'm a foodlover.
On the both sides of my family,we love eating and they are on
my mother's side, there are alot of professionals like bakers
and caterers, and we loveeating.
We love those, you know, wheneverybody meets for big lunch or
(04:55):
big meals.
It is a very interesting andgreat time.
We, we love spending together.
I think I should add thereligious topic on the interest.
You were asking about medievalhistory and history of food and
my interest on religiouspractices in the, this is a good
trial, in fact, to understandmy interest in this.
Paula Mohammed (05:16):
It sounds like you grew up with food playing a
large role in your family, andwere there other cultures that
influenced the way you cook now?
Helene Jawhara Pina (05:27):
This is a good question.
Well, I told you on my mother'sside, they are super French.
So, so they grew up inNormandy.
There are a lot of dishes withheavy cream and butter, you
know, those kind of dishes, likesuper heavy dishes.
But I also discovered that,they were Ashkenazi from the
(05:51):
mother of my grandfather on mymother's side.
We did not know about thissince recently.
There is this very deep Frenchculinary tradition, but on my
father's side, this is totallythe opposite or it's totally a
different kind of food culture.
Like we're eating a lot ofpeppers and a lot of meatballs
(06:12):
and a lot of olive oil andgarlic and eggplants.
I grew up between those twodifferent field of food
practices and food contributionsand this made what I am today.
Paula Mohammed (06:26):
How do you express your love of cooking?
What does that look like foryou with your family now?
Helene Jawhara Pina (06:31):
What is quite funny is I don't cook
French dishes.
That's a bit weird, sayingthis, but I, I'm not super fan
of French food.
but this is not the case forpastries and bread.
I love Mediterranean dishes,like with a lot of vegetables
(06:52):
and a lot of olive oil andgarlic and eggplants and those
kind of dishes.
Even if I'm a good combinationbetween those two worlds, I am
more on the, you know, southside.
Paula Mohammed (07:05):
Do you do most of the cooking?
Helene Jawhara Pina (07:06):
Oh yes.
I cook all time.
It's super hard for me when Igo on, you know, I'm on vacation
or I go somewhere for holidaysand I'm not in my kitchen.
In fact, this is funny because,or I am in my kitchen cooking
and experiencing new recipes, orI am in my office working on
Inquisition trials.
(07:26):
So, you know, I just spend mytime from one place to another,
but this is what I used to doand I am so sad when after like
a couple of days, I was not ableto cook or to create new
recipes.
Paula Mohammed (07:41):
I can relate to that.
I just, I mentioned to youbefore we started recording that
we had just been in Paris andPortugal, and I hadn't been back
to Paris for a long time.
And my regret is that we werestaying in a hotel room and I
really wish we had a kitchenbecause I forgot how much I love
going through the marketsthere.
And, and I, I also realizethere's as many bad bistros in
(08:02):
Paris as there are good ones.
Helene Jawhara Pina (08:04):
I agree.
Paula Mohammed (08:05):
Thank you for letting us get to know you a
little bit more before we diveinto the rest.
I have to tell you, before Imet you, before I was connected
to who you are, my son and Iwere talking and I said to him,
"you know, I really wish that inschools when they taught
history, they also taught thehistory of food of that era and
that location and that period atthe same time, because there's
(08:28):
so much that we learn from thehistory of food" and then I
discovered you and yourcookbooks and you just prove my
point once again.
So if there's any teachers outthere, I think you should reach
out to Hélène and maybe work ona curriculum that can go through
the school systems.
Helene Jawhara Pina (08:45):
Oh yes.
I teach medieval history and Iteach history of food.
But I am also a Spanish teacherin high school.
And I have this opportunity totalk about Spanish culture, of
the culture of all the Spanishspeaking world and I always talk
about the relevance of food,uh, in the time of understanding
(09:08):
the Spanish world culture.
So yes, it's interesting.
You can just give work on adifferent angle and you can
learn so much about theterritory, the country, where
they were speaking and they arespeaking Spanish through food.
And this, in fact, it's, youknow, a plus to understand.
Paula Mohammed (09:29):
Matzah and Flour, your latest cookbook.
Before we dive further into it,can you just share with us,
what is matzah?
Because not everybody mayunderstand what that is.
Helene Jawhara Pina (09:41):
Good.
Yes, you're right.
Matzah is unleavened bread.
Bread that did not rise.
So you can make, uh, matzahfrom different kinds of flour.
Today when we think aboutmatzah, it's obviously wheat,
(10:03):
but it was absolutely not thecase.
And that's why I also by theway, wrote the book.
Uh, so matzah, it's just flourand water.
Basically, it's just this.
And it is obviously deeplyconnected to the Jewish people
and the celebration of Passover.
Paula Mohammed (10:22):
And can it be any type of flour?
Helene Jawhara Pina (10:24):
Oh yes.
In fact, nowadays we think thatit's only wheat flour, but it
can be made of absolutely allthe different flours that
exists.
And my cookbook, just tell thestory of all those different
kinds of matzah made withdifferent kinds of flour.
And they are matzah.
If they did not rise, it'smatzah.
(10:46):
And if they are made under 18minutes, they're considered as
matzah.
Paula Mohammed (10:53):
Interesting.
Under 18 minutes.
Why the 18 minutes?
Helene Jawhara Pina (10:57):
Because it's the time, uh, that in
Judaism, it is considered thatif you go beyond the 18 minutes,
so the combination betweenflour and water, when we start
to knead the dough.
So after 18 minutes, it startsto rise.
(11:17):
So as we do not want it torise, you have to make
everything from the very, verybeginning to the end, which
includes the baking time.
It has to be under 18 minutes.
Paula Mohammed (11:33):
That's actually very efficient and doable for
any meal as well.
I like that.
You mentioned you wrote thebook because matzah is not
flour.
So were you on a mission toeducate people on what matzah
is, or why did you write thecookbook?
Helene Jawhara Pina (11:47):
Writing another cookbook just after my
first one, Sephardic Cooking: The History. (11:50):
undefined
This was not something that Ihave been thinking about.
I was thinking about justwriting another one.
I wrote Sephardi, Sephardi waspublished in 2021 and this one
only came few years after.
But when I was finishingSephardic Cooking: The History,
I realized that I had leftoverrecipes or information, not
(12:14):
recipes, but mainly informationsthat were dealing with this
unleavened bread.
So I decided to just to gatherall the information I had and to
write Matzah and Flourcookbook.
And you are right, my goal wasalso to share with the people,
not maybe to instruct, but toshare with the people what I
(12:36):
have been learning about thedifferent kinds of matzah which
are related to the Sephardihistory.
Paula Mohammed (12:45):
And just so people know I have the cookbook
and it's a really interestingbook.
This is not a book that's justa collection of recipes that
were left over.
When I was reading it, I feltlike I was learning history,
religious studies and recipesthat I could use right away.
I was blown away with yourlevel of research, but I guess
(13:07):
that's what a PhD person is allabout.
I learned so much and the rulesaround Passover for example,
because we just had Passover andEaster, so I was very
interested in that.
I was actually felt a bitembarrassed how little I knew
after I was reading your book.
So anyone who's interested inhistory, religious studies, and
(13:28):
matzah and flour.
I highly recommend the book.
How long did it take you to dothe research for this book?
I understand that it was kindof carried over from your
previous one, but there's adepth to it that I haven't seen
before in other books like this.
Helene Jawhara Pina (13:43):
Matzah and Flour, and Sephardi, they are
both unconventional cookbooksbecause it's not like, you know,
you have the recipe, you havethe process, and that's all.
So they are made from myresearch as a PhD.
And it's hard to answer thequestion concerning how many
time it took me to write thiscookbook because the Sephardi
(14:06):
and Matzah and Flour are part ofmy research since I am a PhD
candidate.
I'm always working.
I'm always investigating.
It took me so much time.
I don't know, maybe four, threeyears maybe.
I am not inventing the dishes.
First, I have to find thesource to read it and, you know,
to cross my fingers and hope,hopefully I find something
(14:31):
interesting for me.
And then to translate it, sothe research is like 80% of my
work.
Paula Mohammed (14:37):
Were you a practicing chef as well before
you did your PhD?
Helene Jawhara Pina (14:42):
In fact, during my PhD, I started to work
also as a chef, but only forJewish families because they ask
me something, always specialkinds of cooking.
But also they ask me to like togive a talk and to presentation
of what are my research dealingwith.
(15:05):
And so I do not have arestaurant, but I used to cook
for people as well.
Paula Mohammed (15:10):
Reading Matzah and Flour, I came across the,
well, the first sectionobviously, and it's about the
old and holy bread.
Can you share a little bitabout the research where you
reference Dr.
Cynthia Schaefer Elliot ondomestic cooking in the time of
the Hebrew Bible?
I find it personallyfascinating to know how people
cook and their daily routine.
(15:32):
Just when I go to anothercountry, let alone back in
history.
Helene Jawhara Pina (15:37):
Yes, I agree.
It's not that easy to find goodreferences concerning food
practices and unfortunately thisis something that today, you
have so many food writers thatstart sharing information that
are not true.
(15:58):
This is a really big problem,very big issue that
unfortunately also happens a lotconcerning Jewish food.
I don't know why, but it'sreally, it's not good at all.
Anyway, so when I work and domy research, I always reach out
(16:19):
to people that are PhDs as welland for certain kinds of
informations.
It really depends of what youare looking for.
So you can learn so much frominteresting and fascinating
chefs.
You can learn so much thanks toobviously other scholars like
(16:39):
me from their research.
And you can learn so much aswell concerning your experience,
your own experience eating, butalso just talking with people.
I never met Cynthia, mycolleague in person.
Nevertheless, I read her bookand I was also in Tel Aviv, few
(17:01):
years ago in Asif where I wasable to see an exhibition on the
breads in Jerusalem.
And I was fascinated also bythis and it's an exhibition made
by scholars as well.
So that's why I decided toquote and to highlight Cynthia's
work.
Paula Mohammed (17:20):
What was domestic cooking like back then?
I imagine people weren'tcooking for the love of it?
Helene Jawhara Pina (17:26):
Well, easy food, you know?
At that time you did not havethat much, and that much
interest as well.
So all the products werealready known at that time.
But they were food that we arestill using today.
The most important thing isthat the cooking and the cuisine
was something very simple, notsomething complicated.
(17:47):
And the way the things werebaked was more interesting.
The process is more interestingthan dish itself.
Paula Mohammed (17:55):
And would that process be tied to religious
aspects or was it just theprocess of cooking?
Helene Jawhara Pina (18:02):
Well, it depends on the kind of source
you are talking about.
So obviously they are relatedto Judaism.
Obviously you're gonna find,you're gonna read and you're
gonna find information that arereally tied to Jewish laws or
the krout, or the dietary foodlaw.
So it really depends of whatkind of source you are reading.
Paula Mohammed (18:23):
I have found from when I started In My
Kitchen and then it evolved andnow doing the podcast, the role
of hospitality around the worldis highly prioritized and valued
especially compared to NorthAmerica and everybody that I
talk to almost we get into aconversation about hospitality.
(18:45):
With Leila, one of our hosts,she's from Rasht, Iran.
Even in times of adversity,there's still this, your door is
always open.
There's always, room at thetable for another guest.
Going back in history, in yourresearch, did you come across
this at all in terms of howpeople ate together, the role of
food in people's lives, wasthere celebrations, gatherings?
(19:08):
I'm curious if you came acrossanything like that in terms of
the role of hospitality.
Helene Jawhara Pina (19:15):
Obviously I found this kind of information,
but the result is totallydifferent because it really
depends of the place you aretalking about and it really
depends of the period you aretalking about.
And it also really depends ofwho were the rulers of this
territory at that time, so Icould share three different
(19:39):
point of view.
First thing is that beforethere were Sephardic Jews, the
Jews of Spain, there areevidence of the lives of the
Jews in Spain since the secondcentury.
So at that time there were alsosmall Christian communities,
and obviously there were noMuslim at that time because they
they only came in the eighthcentury.
(20:00):
When the three religions wereliving together and they were
living good together, it wasuntil the 10th century.
Until the 10th century, therewere no big problems.
But then the problems came inthe 11th century when a Berber
(20:21):
dynasty from Morocco started torule the country.
So the country, I mean, what isSpain nowadays?
Because they had a verydogmatic view of Islam.
And so that's when started theproblems.
But it was less problematicthan when the Christians started
to rule the country in the 15thcentury.
(20:43):
So this means that there iswhat we call acculturation when
you share your culture withother people.
This can happen when oneculture does not fear about the
new culture who is coming.
This happened when everybody'sliving together with almost no
(21:08):
problem.
But when someone comes and thenew culture is coming and it's
very bad.
It's so too hard to livetogether, that's when you can
talk about non hospitality infood.
I have been able to find thisin sources that were dealing
with the food practices of theMuslims, who were scared about
(21:31):
the food practices of theChristians and of the Jews.
And I have been also able tofind this avoiding this
hospitality in Jewish sourcesthat you really don't want to
accept some bread from anon-Jewish person.
Things started to be very hardconcerning food hospitality in
(21:53):
Spain since the 11th, 12thcentury to, to the 18th century.
Paula Mohammed (22:01):
Wow.
Maybe just a brief historylesson, if you don't mind, on
the Inquisition trials.
Helene Jawhara Pina (22:07):
Well, the Inquisition is a judicial court
created by the Christian, by theCatholics monarchs in 1478.
Even if they were not rulingall of Spain at that time,
because they were only rulingthe totality of Spain in 1492.
But they decided to create thiscourt, this judicial court to
(22:33):
unify Spain under one thing,which was Catholicism.
Muslims and Jews were notallowed to practice their
religion for the Jews since1492.
Where they had to fled Spain orthey had to convert.
(22:56):
And the Muslims were allowed tostay in Spain since 1609.
The goal of the Court of theInquisition was to spy on all
the Jews called the ConversoJews or the Crypto Jews.
This mean that also themariscos, so all the people who
(23:16):
were pretending officially to bea good Christian, but in fact,
they were still practicing theirreligion and mainly they were
Jews.
Paula Mohammed (23:30):
When we go to Spain, will I see Sephardic
cuisine in Spain?
And what would that look like?
Helene Jawhara Pina (23:36):
Oh wow.
I wish I could tell youeverywhere.
But this would be a big lie.
Obviously if you go more to thesouth, you're gonna find more
evidences of our Jewish foodpractices, and show the dishes
that are still made.
I think that maybe Andalusiaobviously it's like the most
(24:00):
important place if you want tofind some Sephardic dishes and
the cities of Cordoba and thecity of Seville may be the two
most important ones.
But also the Gibraltar.
So it's a rock calledGibraltar, which is not a
Spanish territory, but it'sBritish territory.
(24:21):
But nevertheless, there isinteresting Jewish community
there.
Unfortunately, if you go toSpain and try to find some
Jewish dishes, you are gonnafind them but they won't be
simple as Jewish dishes.
For example, Passover andEaster just finished three days
(24:41):
ago.
You have, for example, in thesouth of Spain, a dish that is
commonly made for Easter, so bythe Christians, which is called
orejuelas.
It's a fried rolled pastry, andwe have evidence that orejuelas
were made by Sephardic Jews.
We have many different kinds ofsources that say that orejuelas
(25:05):
were made by the SephardicJews, and now it's like
Christian dish.
At that point that orejuelasare mainly made for Easter.
Then you have also for the sameperiod.
Yes, for Easter.
You have this, what we callMona de Pasqua, but it's like a
big loaf of bread like brioche.
(25:28):
And you have an egg just in themiddle with a cross just over.
And this is what Sephardic Jewsused to prepare for Purim
effect.
It's just exactly the samething.
You have so many things, if yougo to Cordoba, you have those
fried eggplants with honey over.
(25:48):
This is Sephardic as well, butpeople do not know about this.
Paula Mohammed (25:52):
The dishes are there but people wouldn't know
necessarily.
What about in Portugal?
I just came back from Portugaland now I'm thinking about what
I ate.
What would it look like there?
Helene Jawhara Pina (26:01):
Sometimes similar, but with Portugal we
have a bit different story,because the Jews of Spain when
the Inquisition started in this,the Inquisition started first
in Spain.
So when you started, all theJews just decided to cross the
border and to go to Portugal,and then few years after the
Inquisition started as well inPortugal, so they decided to be
(26:24):
back to Spain.
So there is this sharedculinary dishes, but I would
talk about this sausage calledalheira.
Which is a sausage, which is abit special because it is
sometimes smoked but dried one,and it is made with bread and
(26:44):
with chicken meat inside and nopork.
And this is something thatnowadays you can still find in
northern eastern Portugal.
It's one of the key evidence ofJewish culinary heritage of the
Sephardi because it has no porkinside.
Paula Mohammed (27:03):
We had the sausages made with the bread.
It was in the Alentejo region,so east of Evora.
So yeah, I lived in Portugalfor a little bit in 1998, but I
was on the coast.
I'd never had this sauce typeof sausage.
Very different.
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:21):
It's really from on the other side,
Paula Mohammed (27:24):
Ah...
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:24):
The Spanish border side.
Paula Mohammed (27:27):
That makes a lot of sense.
That's exactly where we were.
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:29):
Oh, yes, so totally you were in the right
place.
Paula Mohammed (27:32):
This is interesting because I hope more
people might listen to thispodcast episode and do their own
research on Sephardic cuisineand look for it in their
travels.
Because now you've got methinking also about Goa on the
coast of India, which was underPortuguese rule for a long time.
So I assume that we would seeinfluences of Sephardic cuisine
(27:54):
there too.
Helene Jawhara Pina (27:55):
Yes.
Well, this is something that Iused to repeat "when people
move, food move", and you knowwhat?
When you have been expelledfrom a place you have been
living all your entire life, youand the previous generations,
you ancestors, and you have toleave this, uh, country.
(28:17):
It's so hurtful.
It's so much pain.
So what you wanna do, and thisis the case for what happened
centuries before, but this isalso what is happening with some
refugees nowadays.
So when you are expelled orwhen you have to leave the place
where you have been living allyour entire life, the first
(28:40):
thing you want do when youarrive in the new territory is
to recreate what like I couldcall a safe food or what makes
you more comfortable, or whatmakes you feel good and better.
And food is this.
So when the Jews were expelledfrom Portugal and they just
(29:01):
settled in Goa or in every placeis what they wanted to do is to
recreate those dishes becausejust to feel better or like
home.
Paula Mohammed (29:12):
A taste of home.
It's one thing I really loveabout living in Canada.
I'm in Vancouver, so on theWest coast, but we have such a
rich, multicultural environmentwhere we are and the foods from
different cultures iscelebrated, and people more so
than ever are interested inlearning about the food and then
(29:34):
learning about culture throughfood.
I think food is such an amazingway to learn about other people
and literally break breadtogether without any pressure or
any politics or it's just aboutgood times.
And getting to know somebody onthat level.
I think what you're doing isamazing and just in the short
(29:57):
period reading your cookbooksand meeting you and doing this
interview, it's opened up awhole other world to me that's
definitely gonna be on my radar.
A different way of even when Itravel now I'm gonna think about
the history of the country thatI went to and seek out those
different influences in thefood.
Now I'm curious because I justsort of went off on my own
philosophy on food.
(30:17):
Do you have a philosophy onfood that has guided you through
what you do?
Helene Jawhara Pina (30:22):
I'm totally fascinated about inquisition
trials and learning from historyand everywhere I go, when I
have to go for conferences orjust visiting, I am always
fascinated by learning more.
And also the way that peopleuse certain kinds of ingredients
differently from the way I useto use them.
(30:43):
And this is actually happeningwith corn.
I just so intrigued about cornand the way that you can use
corn in different kinds ofdishes and it tastes differently
according to the way you usedthe corn.
And with the chilies as well.
So those ingredients, I amreally intrigued by.
(31:05):
And this is something I love todiscover when I go to a
country.
I do not bring, you know, like,I bring some clothes as this
would be like.
But I mainly bring food.
Because I didn't want to takethem back.
And I bring some seeds from,this is what I did with Mexico
when I was in Mexico.
So I brought some seeds, Ibrought some chilies and I
(31:28):
brought from things fromeverywhere and just, I'm so
nostalgic when I opened the bagand see.
Wow, that's crazy, it's likepart of myself is still there.
Paula Mohammed (31:37):
Have you ever baked or cooked with acorn
flour?
Do you use acorn flour?
Helene Jawhara Pina (31:43):
Acorn flour.
What is, what would they,
Paula Mohammed (31:45):
Acorn off the oak trees?
I learned about the acorn flourfrom a fellow named Alfredo in
Portugal, and he was a podcastguest and they're using acorns
more and more as a way to kindof live sustainably with the
environment.
So I did some research on it;it's supposed to be very good
(32:07):
for you as well.
There's lots of health benefitsto it.
And then there's a traditionalPortuguese acorn stew.
I was curious if it's somethingthat you've used or if you came
across in your research at all.
Helene Jawhara Pina (32:18):
I did not, but I am definitely going to
make some research.
Paula Mohammed (32:23):
You know, the Black Pigs in Portugal, it used
to only be used to feed the pigsand that's why they tasted so
good.
But now they're using it as asustainable way of cooking and
lots of health benefits.
Helene Jawhara Pina (32:36):
Okay.
I know what you mean.
Yeah, we have this practice inFrance to feed the pork.
Paula Mohammed (32:43):
Right.
Helene Jawhara Pina (32:45):
I did not know the word in English.
But I know what you mean and Iknow that some people used to
make some flour from this.
but I only know about this forfeeding animals.
Paula Mohammed (33:00):
See what you come up with.
Might be a new cookbook foryou.
Helene Jawhara Pina (33:03):
Yes.
I have so much ideas you cannotimagine.
Paula Mohammed (33:06):
One of my questions is, what is next for
you?
Helene Jawhara Pina (33:09):
Just before logging for this podcast, I was
working on a trial.
I discovered when I was at Pennlast year.
I spent five weeks at theUniversity of Pennsylvania
because I got a fellowship towork there in the archives on
Inquisition trials.
I did not know that what I wasabout to discover because they
asked me to come and to read andto be able to do some research
(33:31):
there.
So I was super lucky becauseafter one week, I was able to
find one trial a huge one, thatwas dealing with pork lard and
food in general.
And I am working on this one.
You know, it's a huge work andI want to publish it.
So it's gonna be focused on therelevance of pork and lard in
(33:57):
the food practices of a woman,especially one family and one
woman, and the role of women inkeeping the food identity of her
family and the way it's herlife.
In fact, since she is caught tocome and to be sentenced and to
(34:19):
listen to what is going tohappen to her in the court of
the Inquisition in Toledo, 16thcentury.
It's her story through, youknow, her food practices, her
housekeeping practices, hereverything.
It is just crazy.
So I want to publish this bookto offer transcription in
Spanish, in modern Spanish, andthe translation in English, and
(34:44):
also like a work on this.
Paula Mohammed (34:47):
That fascinates me, knowing and having insight
into those practices and herrole, and then the story behind
it makes it almost like a novel.
So when you do this research,in the Inquisition trials, are
you coming across recipes?
How would her notes have beenpreserved?
Where would she have left themthat you would come across them?
(35:10):
Does that make sense?
Helene Jawhara Pina (35:12):
Yes, it's interesting.
You never come with recipes inthe way there is a list of
ingredients with amounts andwith a name.
It's never like this, becauseit's not a cookbook.
And there was no Jewishcookbook.
It was, would've been worseever if the, for the Jews at
that time to just to write acookbook.
(35:32):
Because they were alreadyidentified as Jewish for their
food practices.
So just guess what would havehappened if they would've just
write a cookbook?
So when you work on inquisitiontrial, so it start judicial
text.
So you, you know, about thedishes because sometime you have
(35:54):
the name of the dish likeadefina, huevos camenados,
tortitas, or like unleavenedbread or the bread of the Jews
or some things like this.
And then sometime you have theprocess, but you never have the
amounts.
Obviously, you have theingredients that are used in the
recipe, but you do not have therecipe as you can find in a
(36:17):
cookbook with a process, list ofingredients.
It's not like this because itwas not the purpose of this.
You can learn a lot concerningthe food practices of the
people.
So in that case of the ConversoJews, the crypto Jews, but also
I was able to identify, to makea list of all the dishes that
(36:41):
the Christians were makingbecause obviously she denied
cooking, those lard cakes and apig and piglet.
When she's avoiding this so youcan understand that those were
the practices of the Christians.
So, it's so interesting.
(37:01):
It's like, you know, a puzzle.
It's just crazy.
It's like a novel and I wish itcould be just transformed into,
a movie because a series movie.
It's just crazy.
The story of this woman makesme totally crazy.
It's fascinating.
Paula Mohammed (37:17):
Well, I'm dying to find out, but I know I have
to wait for the book probablywhat happened to her.
I can see this as a movie.
I can,
Helene Jawhara Pina (37:26):
It is, it's totally.
It's really a movie.
Paula Mohammed (37:30):
That's awesome.
Now I have to take advantage ofthe fact that you are from
French Heritage as well, andthat you are in Bordeaux.
And ask you a little bit aboutBordeaux from a local's
perspective and what's it likethere, where do you live and
what's your day like today?
Helene Jawhara Pina (37:48):
Well, I live in Bordeaux since 11 years
right now.
I was living very close toParis before.
I was born there and then Idecided to move just to be
closer to my Spanish side.
So life in Bordeaux is reallygood.
So we have a good weather.
It's totally different fromwhere I was living.
(38:11):
I teach at the university hereI live, I teach medieval history
and I also teach in high schoolSpanish.
And there is a small Jewishcommunity here.
It's a good place.
We have the city of the wine,so we have so many tourists,
American tourists, and Canadiantourists coming even more, more
(38:32):
and more every year.
And it's a really good city.
I highly recommend people tocome here.
It's much more, it's betterthan Paris maybe right now.
Oh, for the weather at least.
And for the food, because wehave very special and good food
here.
In the south, in Bordeaux, wehave wine mainly.
We have what we call canele,it's a pastry.
(38:54):
And we have foie gras,obviously, foie gras we have
everywhere.
We also have good cheeses andgood bread and we do not have
like, those dishes likecassoulet or beef bourginon.
We have this, but it's not ourspecialty.
But cassoulet, it's very, youknow, a special dish, that is
(39:17):
made mainly Toulouse, it's notso far from, uh, from Bordeaux.
I would say that, definitelysay that, fois gras and wine are
maybe one of our best And youknow, there are a lot of things
from Spain as well, so harm orthings like this.
Okay.
Paula Mohammed (39:36):
And do you go over to Spain quite a bit?
Helene Jawhara Pina (39:38):
Yes.
It's only two hours from home.
So if you go to the first bigplace, like it's like San
Sebastian.
San Sebastian is two hours fromhome.
I used to go, but you know,Northern Spain is totally
different from where I live inSpain, in Andalusia we are like,
(40:00):
you know, the opposite.
I like Spanish people from thenorth of Spain, obviously, but
it's just, we are in the south.
In, we are like, whoa, superopen.
We like talking to everyone.
We like just, we speak, superloud.
Paula Mohammed (40:18):
Are you familiar with an area, uh, Biscarosse?
Helene Jawhara Pina (40:21):
Biscarrosse it's like one hour.
Paula Mohammed (40:23):
In 2013, I was there at Cottage du Lac with my
two little kids We were therefor three weeks and a little
cottage.
It was just amazing.
I love the area.
And we took the kids in thesand dunes.
The big sand dunes.
And then we did a road trip toSan Sebastian.
And, uh, that is, I mean, I, wewere just on the very central
(40:47):
area, of course, and eating allthe pinxos and trying the food,
but I can't wait to go backthere.
I really can't wait.
Helene Jawhara Pina (40:54):
It's a good place.
It's a good place.
Biscarrosse.
It is like, like one hour fromhome.
It's a good city.
It's sunny and you have, youknow, the sea and the lake and
it's really good.
And San Sebastian is really,it's close, like one hour from
Biscarosse, so, and it's totallydifferent.
It's really Spanish.
Really Northern Spanish.
Paula Mohammed (41:15):
Gotcha.
Helene Jawhara Pina (41:15):
You should come to where you should come.
You should come, you know, inAndalusia though you, you can
get even better what I mean.
Paula Mohammed (41:22):
Hélène, one thing that we normally do is
each guest talks about a recipe.
Is there one that you wouldlike to share?
Helene Jawhara Pina (41:28):
I like this one.
It's Pascua Do Pão Asmo.
It's from Brazil.
It's on page 95.
it's called Pascua Do Pão Asmo,bread from Bahia.
I really like this recipe.
It's a really easy one withvery simple ingredients that it
has only flour and water.
(41:49):
But you have this story andit's important to me to
highlight as well the existenceof Sephardic Jews in Brazil.
Paula Mohammed (41:58):
Hélène, it has been such a pleasure and so much
fun to chat with you.
Thank you for, the time andsharing your story and cookbook
with us.
Helene Jawhara Pina (42:06):
Thank you Paula.
It was so great.
I had a very good time with youfor this podcast.
Thank you for having me.
Paula Mohammed (42:12):
And for people who want to follow along and
maybe buy, your cookbooks aswell, what's the best way for
them to find you and follow you?
Helene Jawhara Pina (42:20):
They can follow me on Instagram, so it's
helenejawharapina, also my firstname and last name.
And this is the best way toreach out to me if they have any
questions.
And if they want to have likevideos and of, you know, me
cooking or telling the story ofthe Sephardic Jews.
And then for my books, they cango to their local bookstore,
(42:44):
they can find the books like,you know, it really depends on
where they are living, but theycan find it super easily and
they can order it if it's not instore or they can just buy it
on Amazon and other platforms.
It's super easy.
Paula Mohammed (42:59):
I will put all that information in the show
notes.
Thank so much Hélène.
Lovely meeting you.
Helene Jawhara Pina (43:04):
Yes, me too.
It was one of the best, I thinkthe best podcast I did.
It was so natural.
So that's great.
Paula Mohammed (43:11):
I hope we stay in touch and I can't wait to
read about your next project.
Helene Jawhara Pina (43:15):
My pleasure.
Thank Paula.
Bye.
Paula Mohammed (43:18):
What a lovely person.
Am I the only one right now whowants to go and get a PhD in
the history of food?
This conversation really openedmy eyes to the history of food,
introduced me to Sephardiccuisine and the diaspora, and it
will influence how I travel inthe future, I think.
I'm going to be much morecurious.
Well, I know I'm already muchmore curious about the
(43:38):
historical role of food in theplaces I visit.
I loved Hélène's line "foodmoves when and where the people
move".
Something that was kind ofbizarre is I realized after the
fact, later in the day, when werecorded this, that April 24th,
the day that we did thisinterview, was also Holocaust
(43:59):
Remembrance Day.
Interesting how that lined up,but I think it's important that
we never forget and just want toacknowledge that date.
I'm glad that this podcastepisode happened on April 24th,
2025.
I would love to hear yourthoughts on this episode, and if
you enjoyed it, please rate andreview it on Apple Podcasts.
(44:20):
Feel free to email me atpaula@inmykitchen.ca and sign up
for my handy Travel plannertool.
You'll also receive weeklynewsletters from me that include
the recipes from my podcastguests.
Happy cooking, happy travels.
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