July 10, 2025 • 50 mins
What if the immigrant story you’ve heard is only half the truth?
In this heartfelt episode, I sit down with Shiva Reddy—sommelier, food columnist for CBC Vancouver, and host of the acclaimed docuseries Not Your Butter Chicken. We talk about identity, heritage, and the power of food to connect us to our culture and the women who shaped it.
Shiva shares the deeply personal story behind the series, inspired by her mother’s dementia and her own journey to reclaim the flavors and traditions of her Indo-Fijian roots. From hustling samosas as a teen to becoming a celebrated wine expert, Shiva’s story is full of resilience, tenderness, and a lot of flavor.
You’ll hear about:
🍛 The role of sewa and community in South Asian culture
🧵 Why the stories of immigrant women often go untold
🍷 Her unique philosophy on wine
This conversation left me thinking about the women in my own family—the ones who passed down recipes, love, and history through food. I hope it does the same for you.
HELPFUL LINKS
- Watch Shiva's new docuseries, Not Your Butter Chicken, now on CBC Gem and Telus
- Try Shiva’s dal recipe at exploreinmykitchen.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula Mohammed (00:00):
Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed and welcome to In My
Kitchen with Paula.
This podcast is a gatheringplace for culinary adventurers
who love to travel.
Every week, we'll come togetherwith chefs, cookbook authors,
talented home cooks, andeveryone in between to talk
about their story and theirunique dish.
Using food as the vehicle,we'll take a ride into the ins
(00:21):
and outs of their culture andcountry.
Come on, let's get this partystarted.
In this episode of In MyKitchen with Paula.
I am so excited to share withyou a chat I had with Shiva
reddy.
Shiva is amongst many otherthings, the host of a four-part
docuseries called Not YourButter Chicken.
(00:43):
Shiva is a catalyst for me, uh,exploring my heritage on my
dad's side, Pakistani sidebecause of this four-part
docuseries and the way sheapproaches it.
Fascinating, insightful, butmore than anything really peels
back the layers of the immigrantstory to small towns in British
(01:03):
Columbia.
And this is Indian immigrants.
But she looks at also the storyof the women.
What the women bring to thetable and I think we often
overlook that.
I do this myself.
I always talk about it fromwhen my dad came over, he came
with nothing.
His father, his grandfather,but my dad came with his mother
(01:23):
and his grandmother.
And I often don't look at itfrom their perspective and what
that meant and what theysacrificed and what they brought
to the table.
Same with on my New Zealandside.
I often talk about Wharaepapa,the Maori chief who's in our
family lineage.
But you don't hear me talkingabout the woman, Elizabeth Reid,
whom he married and broughtover from England and what that
(01:45):
was like for her.
After this chat with Shiva,it's really got me thinking
about celebrating and honouringwomen, us, and what we bring to
the table.
From cooking family dinners toum, carrying on recipes that
were passed down to us, we'recarrying on the lineage, the
(02:06):
stories of our families, andwe're nurturing and sharing love
with those near and dearest tous.
Shiva and I talk about a lotmore, but this is what it
triggered in my brain and what'sfront of mind for me right now.
Have a listen, enjoy, and uh,definitely try Shiva's recipe.
Hi, Shiva.
(02:26):
Welcome to the show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Shiva Reddy (02:29):
Hi, thanks for having me!
Paula Mohammed (02:31):
I am gonna give just a quick, brief background
on who Shiva is.
Shiva is a sommelier and thefood columnist for CBC
Vancouver.
She is nominated for a LEOAward for her work as the host
for her new series, Not YourButter Chicken, which streams on
CBC Gem and I can't say enoughabout it.
And we're gonna get intochatting more about that because
(02:51):
I imagine it was, uh, veryrewarding, but also a super
intense experience.
But before we do, let's likeback it up a bit because I've
got this curiosity about you andI'm sure my listeners will too.
But tell us a little bit aboutgrowing up as Shiva Reddy.
Who you were, where you grewup, what life was like.
Shiva Reddy (03:09):
Yeah, so growing up I actually was born and raised
here in Vancouver, BC.
Um, and to an immigrant family.
My parents were both immigrantsfrom Fiji and they were much
older, so they were kind of likemy grandparents.
So for the first few years ofmy life, I grew up with lots of
cousins around me.
They were, well, I should say,they were actually my nieces and
(03:30):
nephews, but I called themcousins because of the age gap
between me and my siblings.
Um, and then, yeah, and then Ialso grew up playing hockey, and
around a lot of food.
My mom was quite sick when Iwas growing up after my dad had
passed, and so I ended upbecoming her caregiver.
And then during that time Iworked my way up the restaurant
world and kind of becameobsessed with wine.
Paula Mohammed (03:53):
I read a, uh, story somewhere in an article,
something about you hustlingsamosas at a young age.
What was that about?
Shiva Reddy (04:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, yeah.
So when my dad had passed, mymom unfortunately was a part of
a very bad car accident whereshe was hit from behind and it
just essentially destroyed herleg.
So she couldn't work anymore.
She was a registered nursebefore my dad had passed.
And then she needed to dosomething, so she opened up a
(04:23):
daycare at home.
She went back to school to dothat, and it was going very
well.
And then the accident happened,so she just couldn't work
anymore.
And I was very young at thattime, and so we just didn't have
money to get by really.
And my mom, incredible cook.
And so what she would do is shewould make rotis, she'd make
curry, but her samosas wereiconic.
(04:46):
And so I would go around and Iwould sell them.
And by selling them, I wouldjust tell people that I have
them.
And then word would spread.
And so basically all of myteachers would purchase them.
All of my friends' parentswould purchase them.
I'm pretty sure we, like, Iwent to the high school Lord
Byng, I'm pretty sure most kidsfor lunch ate her Samosas and
(05:09):
were raised on them.
Uh, and then my hockey teamwould buy samosas.
So I would also be there justhelping her roll out all the
samosas and make them, and thenI would be the one who's like
essentially hustling them andselling them to everybody.
Paula Mohammed (05:20):
Oh my gosh.
You know, totally going off ona tangent, but you went to Lord
Byng.
My dad immigrated from Pakistanwhen he was 18 and went to Lord
Byng, and I went to Prince ofWales just down the road from
Lord, I'm now.
I'm a lot older than Shiva.
You guys can't see thisbeautiful young woman in front
of me.
But, uh, so different,different times.
(05:40):
But when we moved here from NewZealand, my parents put us into
summer school because the mathwas different and we had to
learn some French.
And there was a young girl thatsat behind me and she came from
an Indian family and she wouldcome to school with these
lunches that just smelled sogood.
And finally I was so shy, but Iturned around and I said, "oh,
(06:02):
is that such and such curry?"And she was shocked, you know,
in the eighties it wasn't coolto be, have the last name
Mohammed, or be Indian orPakistani.
And so we connected and shewould start bringing extra
lunches with samosas and thedifferent curries and biryani
from her family.
And we would have lunchtogether over shared curry.
I would've been buying yoursamosas if I had had your number
(06:22):
back then.
Shiva Reddy (06:23):
Honestly, the funny thing is that there were the
samosas that I was hustling, butalso my mom knew that my
friends, she knew that that theywere eating bologna sandwiches,
Paula.
So she was just like, here,here's a little bit more for
your friend Stefana.
Please make sure, make sureJessica eats, eats something.
So she was always concerned, soshe'd always make so much more
(06:44):
for them so that they wouldn'teat a perfect sandwich as well.
But yeah, anyways.
Paula Mohammed (06:49):
That's so cute.
Were you raised with the Indianvalues and cultures in
western...?
What was that like for you?
Shiva Reddy (06:57):
Oh yeah, yeah.
It's really interestingbecause, because of the
generation gap with myself andmy mom.
She's old enough to be mygrandma.
She had me at 47 and so yeah.
And so I, I found that like,because she wasn't maybe in her
(07:17):
thirties when she had me, ortwenties when she had me, and
wasn't born here, she didn'tassimilate in the same way, like
she came to a Canada thatwasn't perfect, but there was
still that idea ofmulticulturalism.
So she was very, very proud ofwhere she came from.
Um, and so growing up, youknow, we would go to the temple
(07:38):
every single week, sometimesevery day.
We were doing traditionalclassical dancing for me.
I liked playing hockey, so thatwas her way of making sure that
I balanced it out and I was agood Indian girl.
But yeah it was very much so apart of our culture and there
was no, there was no shamearound it.
There would be like, for me,growing up playing hockey, being
(07:59):
like, "ugh, my hockey gearsmells like curry again.
Ugh." You know, there was that.
I'm like, "my hair smells likecurry.
Ugh." But then the curry wouldbe so good.
But my mom really wanted tomake sure that I spoke the
language, that I ate the food.
She didn't teach me how to cookthe food, but she wanted to
make sure that I was asingrained in my culture as
(08:20):
possible because she just sawhow important it was.
Especially with having seen theassimilation when she had first
come here, of people just noteven wanting to be a part of the
culture because they justwanted to fit in.
So I, yeah, I feel very luckyabout that.
Paula Mohammed (08:35):
I read that your, is it true your mom was in
the police force in Fiji.
So unbelievable.
Like, she sounds like such anamazing woman.
I, I really wanna know aboutyou Shiva, but I'm also
fascinated by your mother sinceI've been watching this series
and what I've read.
Yeah.
Shiva Reddy (08:50):
Honestly Paula, this is her show.
And it's funny because like shewill call me and she'll be
like, so how my show, where isit?
How is it doing?
Why didn't I get to go to thistalk?
Like if I tell her about ustalking today, she's going to be
upset that she wasn't here.
So, uh, it's very much so abouther.
But yes, she was actually thefirst female police officer in
(09:13):
Fiji.
Um, and then she also was oneof the first females to run the
prison services in Fiji as well.
And so just like a lot of, andlike a very interesting focus on
reconciliation at that timethat like wasn't really
happening in the prisonservices.
But yeah, she had to leave thatall behind despite the fact
(09:34):
that she worked so hard to getthere.
Because she was too old.
She was 36 and her parentswanted her to get married, so
that's why she came to Canadafor an arranged marriage with my
dad.
Paula Mohammed (09:45):
Gotcha.
So did she meet your dad, uh,for the first time in Canada
then?
Shiva Reddy (09:49):
Absolutely.
It was old school where she wasjust shown photos and he
happened to be the most handsomeone who looked the youngest as
well.
Turns out he was the oldest,but she didn't know that until
after they were married.
Paula Mohammed (10:02):
The hockey piece.
That's something I've beencurious about too.
How did you first fall in lovewith hockey?
And did your mom drive you allover?
I know now people gotta drivefor hours to get to their kid's
tournaments and whatnot.
Shiva Reddy (10:15):
Yes.
And you know, she did drivehours.
So I feel like being a kid ofimmigrants, uh, naturally, that
you want to be as Canadian aspossible.
And so hockey was the thing.
And so we grew up watching somuch hockey.
My brother played, and then I,I wanted to play too, and my mom
(10:35):
had no question around of like,"no, you're a girl, you can't
do that".
For her, it was like, "oh,you're interested?
Yes.
Let's, let's get you in there."Um, and then also I wanted to
be a goalie because, you know,it looked like fun.
Ah, uh, but you know what?
Even when we like really hadnothing, there was still
(10:56):
somehow, some way, this will forher to make sure that I was
able to get it.
And so, yeah.
So she would drive everywhereand because I was, I was pretty
good and at the time there werevery few female hockey programs.
What she did was she woulddrive me up to North Vancouver,
West Vancouver almost everyother day so that I could play
(11:19):
hockey up there for a goodprogram.
And then she'd drive me out toDelta, uh, for goalie school,
and then she would drive all theway to California for
tournaments.
She did not miss a game.
She was there for every singleone.
Paula Mohammed (11:32):
Amazing.
Absolutely amazing.
Shiva, I, I, I keep saying it,your Indian culture, but there's
so many different sects ofIndian culture and religions.
What do you identify with?
Shiva Reddy (11:44):
It's in progress, uh, quite frankly, but my family
is originally from South India,which would identify with
Hinduism.
So I speak Hindi.
My family had to go throughwhat was called girmit, where
indentured slavery essentiallyhappened.
Indentured workers were takenfrom India, and they didn't know
(12:06):
where they were gonna end up.
Her family ended up in Fiji.
And Fiji's just this incredibleplace where like, you have so
many different cultures comingtogether, and it's just,
everybody from Fiji is sofriendly.
From there, my parents thenmigrated here.
So we're Indo-Fijian, but like,yeah.
And for me it's so, it's sointeresting because I'm just, I
(12:27):
feel like I've been trying tofigure out where I fit in
because as a kid, a Canadiankid, born and raised here, you
know, I still get the question,where are you from?
And it's like, well, I actuallygrew up here.
I'm from here.
I'm Canadian.
You know, so that, that was thefirst thing of being like,
okay, why are you making me theother all of a sudden?
And then there was aconversation around "hey, but
(12:49):
we're Fijian, but I've neverbeen to Fiji, but my parents are
from Fiji.
Am I Fijian?" And then therewould be the conversation of in
my head as a kid, just beinglike, if I just streamline it
and just tell them that I amborn here and my family's
originally from India, I don'thave to have the whole
conversation.
And now as I get older.
And especially with doing NotYour Butter Chicken and
(13:10):
traveling across Canada andmeeting so many different South
Asians.
It's been very coolunderstanding that.
Right, India is so big.
Each place is like a differentlittle country in itself.
And we're all so different, butwe're all kind of the same.
And so I'm coming to realizevery much so my roots of the
(13:31):
Indo-Fijian here in Canada.
Paula Mohammed (13:34):
Amazing.
I have to tell you watchingyour series.
Actually sparked this, um,bizarre, uh, realization in me
where I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm 50%Pakistani.
And I said this to my mom lastnight and she goes, Paula, like,
yeah, I have, I mean, what,what are you talking about?
But if you, people who've likein my community through In My
(13:55):
Kitchen know that I am soenthralled by my New Zealand
side of our story, the Maoriside, where in actual fact I'm
1/32 Maori.
That's about it.
But it's a really interestingstory there.
And your series has actuallyput me on this journey of
wanting to find out more aboutmy heritage.
And a lot of our family now is,uh, in Yuba City, Sacramento,
(14:17):
and I wanna go down.
Unfortunately, my dad passedaway in 2010 and you know, he
went through the partition,lived in Pakistan till he was
18, and then came here, butnever really talked about it.
And I wish he embraced hisheritage like your mom did.
So anyway, thank you becauseI'm on this exploration about,
uh, learning more about Pakistanand our culture and who my dad
(14:40):
was at that time.
So it's, it's, uh, it'sinteresting and I'm a bit
annoyed at myself for not beinginterested.
But again, in the seventies andeighties as a young girl, you
didn't wanna be different.
When people ask me where areyou from?
It sounds like maybe it was thesame for you, but it made me a
bit upset.
I was well, I'm, I'm fromCanada, I'm Canadian.
No, but where really, like,where are you really from?
I was like, I'm Canadian.
(15:01):
Then I would throw them off andsay, well, New Zealand.
You know?
Shiva Reddy (15:05):
Absolutely.
But I, I so resonate with that.
I'm just like wanting to knowmore about your culture, but
just, you know, for the sake ofother people, you're trying to
simplify it and then you realizethat like you are the one who's
missing out on it.
So I'm excited for you in yourjourney.
Paula Mohammed (15:20):
Yeah.
No, it's, it's, uh, tasty.
That's for sure.
Fijian curries are hot.
Spicy.
Is that what your mom's currieswere like?
Shiva Reddy (15:29):
You know, it's so interesting I find because
there's that influence of SouthIndia as well as Fijian, it's,
if anything, just bright andvibrant.
With my mom's curries, eventhough she did not eat meat, she
was a vegetarian, she made themost incredible goat curry,
(15:49):
chicken curry.
But there was always balance.
It was always balance betweenthat spice as well.
They would be on the spicierside, but still she would make
it so that you were able toactually taste the flavors and
not just be overtaken by spice.
Paula Mohammed (16:03):
It sounds like food played a big role in your
upbringing through your mom.
Shiva Reddy (16:08):
Absolutely, yeah.
I feel like we had the iconicmother daughter clashing as, as
you grow especially with the,especially with the cultural
aspect of like, we had thecommonality that we are the same
culture, but also not.
She had her Indo-Fijianculture.
Me, Canadian, also Indian,Fijian.
(16:32):
But there was this likedisconnect there where we were
just, we're trying to figure itout and I feel like I, we just
weren't in the same space.
So there was always tensionthere, but, but Paula, she was
such an incredible cook thatwhen we would fight, I would
very quickly in my head, likemeasure out and negotiate with
myself to be like, "is thisreally worth it?
(16:52):
Because I'm not gonna be ableto eat the roti after this." I
may as well stick it out.
I'm gonna be mad, but I amgonna have to get over it
because I kind of, it's notworth it.
I kind of wanna have the dal, Iwanna have the roti.
Paula Mohammed (17:06):
Isn't that true?
How food, food can bring peopleback together from enemies to
just a nothing said, just here'sthe dish.
Shiva Reddy (17:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Paula Mohammed (17:16):
Tell me about Not Your Butter Chicken.
You've probably been asked thisa hundred times, but I gotta
ask you how you came up with thetitle and what was the catalyst
to create this docuseries?
Shiva Reddy (17:27):
Yeah.
So with the name Not YourButter Chicken, it was so
important because I feel likepeople, when they would meet me,
they'd be like, okay, where areyou from?
Hmm.
And then they'd go into theconversation of, oh my god, your
butter chicken must be so good.
And it's like, ugh, we don'tmake butter chicken.
(17:48):
We just go out and eat some,but we are more than butter
chicken.
And so it kind of fueled fromthat of being like, guys, come
on.
Also, butter chicken's made notfor us.
Uh, it's made by us, but notnecessarily for us.
And so yeah, it kind of sparkedthat exploration and almost
like this, uh, I don't know, amini fury of being like, guys,
(18:11):
open your eyes.
We're so much more than this.
Let's explore what we have tooffer.
Uh, so that was kind of theidea behind Not Your Butter
Chicken.
Paula Mohammed (18:20):
What did you hope to achieve through the
series and do you feel like atthe other end of it now you, you
got to the place you wanted toget to?
Shiva Reddy (18:28):
Oh gosh.
I feel like I had so manyquestions and I thought they'd
all be answered, but Paula, letme tell you, I just have even
more questions at the end of it.
Um, but the idea and the reasonwhy it all happened was because
my mom has dementia, which is avery big part of the story and
kind of why I was set onto it,because I found that I was
(18:50):
taking care of my mom, whichI've been doing since I was
young.
But there was this veryspecific turning point where,
you know, she became my kid andI kind of became the mom and our
roles reversed, um, at when Iwas quite young.
And I just found that she wasin the hospital so much and it
would literally break her soulreceiving hospital food because
(19:13):
she, you know, it, the foodshould be something that's
uplifting.
It should be nourishing, itshould make you, it should
literally make you feel alive.
But she would see the food andit would just be like a glob of
something and it would tastelike nothing.
And this is somebody who was anincredible cook.
She knew what she was doing andit would just make her cry.
(19:34):
And so I realized that the onlyway to a) keep her alive in
many ways, her spirit, her body,everything was to be able to
figure out how she made it.
Now, the thing is, is that whenI was growing up, she always
told me to be a good Indiangirl, which is always a thing of
like, you have to be a goodIndian girl.
(19:54):
You need to know how to cook,so come on, learn.
But Paula, I would find that Iwould always want to learn.
I've been very curious since Iwas a kid, and she would somehow
get me out of the kitchen, haveme sitting on the couch with
like a cup of chai and it'slike, how did this happen?
(20:15):
How did you deceive me?
I wanna learn.
Uh, and I realized that it wasa thing where she always wanted
me to come back.
It was her way of showing herlove and by cooking, by feeding
me, it was a way to make sureI'd always come home to her.
And now it was kind of thesame, like the food that she
made created a home for me andnow I had to do that for her.
(20:37):
And so that's how I started totry to learn how to cook for her
when she was so sick.
And then I realized that like,oh my God, she didn't write
anything down.
She did everything by likefeel, which is unfortunately how
I do it now too.
But I, through my wineknowledge as a sommelier, I
started having to like, like forthose who might not know a
(21:00):
sommelier, I basically tastewine and I try to figure out
where it's from.
I also try to find the rightwines for people.
But the idea, I find it's sogrounding, but you basically
have a taste and all of a suddenyou're traveling through all of
your memories, all of theflavors you've experienced,
everything, all of the smells,and you're trying to go through
(21:20):
and figure out what it is.
And so I feel like because ofthat background, I was able to
kind of do the same thing withflavors.
And then document obsessively.
Um, because her dementia, shewouldn't be quite sure of what
the recipes were.
They'd always be different.
So I'd have recordings, I'dwrite them down and, and I
almost wanna pull out my hairbecause it never made sense.
(21:41):
And then even with her tryingto cook as well, it wasn't the
same anymore.
So that's how it all started ofme trying to cook for her.
And through that, I realizedthat that was a tie to my
heritage.
My mom was my heritage and shewas forgetting what our heritage
was.
And that's kind of what seteverything to go.
Paula Mohammed (22:05):
And for our listeners who may not know, the
Not Your Butter Chicken seriesgoes through four different
small towns in BC and lookingand chatting with people from
India and, and kinda looking attheir lives through the lens of
food and wine.
And yeah, it's fascinating.
(22:25):
I hope there's a cookbook thatcomes out out of all this as
well.
I don't know, I'm just gonnathrow that out there.
But with your mom's recipes andthe recipe, like watching it,
it's just like, I, I didn't knowroti.
I mean, I grew up learning tomake roti from my grandmother,
Bibi, and uh, but I had no ideaabout the significance of roti
in the Pakistanian Indianculture.
(22:46):
That was so interesting how...
Shiva Reddy (22:48):
Absolutely.
Paula Mohammed (22:49):
In every culture, bread has such a huge
role in the significance of the,of the culture.
Shiva Reddy (22:57):
Yeah.
No, and, and in this one, inFort McMurray, we met this woman
who was a famous star.
Uh, she was an iconic model,actress, singer, everything.
And she literally, like my mom,left it all behind for a
marriage so that she can havekids.
And out of everywhere in theworld her husband picked, it was
(23:20):
Fort McMurray, right?
Ah.
which, like, it was so coolseeing what she had done.
She was so depressed.
What she was able to makesomething of it herself.
But what she taught me was thatsignificance of roti, of like,
when you're making a roti, it'salmost like there's a story of
you need to make the perfectroti.
(23:40):
It needs to be round, it needsto puff up perfectly, otherwise
your mother-in-law won't likeyou.
And so the idea was that youteach your daughter how to make
the perfect roti so that yourmother-in-law will like you.
And then you have that safetyof being in a family that will
take care of you.
Um, and it was almost like asafety thing that's then passed
(24:01):
down through the generations.
I had no idea.
I just thought the roti'ssupposed to be round.
mine.
Mine are not round.
Mine look like country snails.
Paula Mohammed (24:10):
I've, I've resorted to buying them
actually, and then just heatingthem up.
I don't, I don't know, it mayexplain why I'm divorced.
Shiva Reddy (24:18):
Nope.
Honestly, no, no, no.
Not at all.
Absolutely not.
Nope.
Your roti's I'm sure aredelicious.
Paula Mohammed (24:24):
Watching the series, I couldn't help tying a
connection between each episodeand a value that that came out.
Each one spoke to me in adifferent way.
So episode one, a lot of, I'mgonna pronounce this wrong about
sewa?
Shiva Reddy (24:38):
Sewa.
Paula Mohammed (24:40):
And I wanna come back and ask you about that.
And then episode two reallyspoke to me about resilience.
Episode three was curiosity andhope, and then four courage
just came out.
I was curious if there was anintention of that happening, or
is that reflective of the Indiancultural values?
Or is this just Paula Mohammedhaving her own lens, uh, thrown
(25:03):
out there and, and...
Shiva Reddy (25:04):
I love it.
No, there's always a reason.
It was just like there's, therewas almost too many things and
so it was so hard to narrow itdown.
My producers were incredible.
Joanna and, uh, Priyanka Desai.
Um, they just did such a greatjob of trying to figure out what
were these common themes thatwe had with the idea of sewa.
(25:26):
It's such an ingrained part ofour culture.
Sewa is essentially givingback, taking care of each other,
no matter who the person is andso when we went to Kamloops, we
were able to meet someincredible people.
People who had immigrated fromIndia in the sixties, um, and
(25:47):
they settled there and they weretold that they would have so
much opportunity, only to arriveand realize there was nothing.
So they literally had to sowthe land.
Um, they were being paid a$1.60 at the most an hour and
being worked so hard in thesawmills.
And they were still able tocreate the first gurdwara, like
(26:10):
in their own home.
And then that built into alarger gurdwara, which is there
right now.
And they have this incrediblething called langar, where no
matter who you are, no matterwhere you come from, what you
look like, you have the abilityto have a seat at the table and
you will be fed.
And whatever you need, theywill make sure as a community
(26:33):
that they're taking care of youand that everybody's bringing
each other up.
Um, and that was just sobeautiful.
And it was a thing where Ididn't know the word sewa, which
is so silly growing up, butthat's what my mom did.
We would go to the temple.
We'd have food for everybodyand it didn't matter if we had
nothing, there was stillsomething we could give.
(26:54):
And that was so significant.
And so the sewa and then theresilience was interesting
because we always hear about howwhen you come to Canada, it's
usually a man's story of he camehere and he had $5 in his
pocket and he just made it.
But we never hear about thesilent sacrifices of women.
(27:14):
And that's kind of the story ofmy mom, the story of Shweta,
it's so common.
Well, we never get to hearabout it.
And kind of the story goes onand on and like the idea of what
will they say?
Um, which is the last episode,one of my favorites of, of my
mom especially.
But of the idea of why are wedoing it for them?
(27:34):
We have to do it for us.
We build this for us.
Yeah.
Paula Mohammed (27:40):
Can you just tell our listeners what is a
gurdwara?
What is a gurdwara, for whodon't know?
Shiva Reddy (27:46):
Absolutely.
So a gurdwara is a Sikh temple,essentially a place of worship.
Uh, and langar is essentiallyrun by, we call them the langar
ladies.
They would, they come in aroundlike 5:00 AM, 4:00 AM in the
morning, and they just cookmeals for the community.
They do it for free.
(28:06):
Everything is donated and theyjust, they just show up and they
do it, and then they serve itto their community as well.
And it's just so beautiful.
Paula Mohammed (28:14):
Wow.
How did you find, or how didyour producers know where they
wanted to go and, and how didthey find the people that you
ended up meeting andinterviewing with?
Shiva Reddy (28:25):
Uh, honestly, it was one of those things where
sometimes we didn't know whereit would go.
Uh, sometimes, you know,there'd be stories of like Fort
Mac for example, of me sharingmy own stories.
These were things that myproducers did not know, but we
kind of just had to roll withit.
They did a lot of research intothe history of the area, the
history of the people, um.
(28:47):
And went further and further.
So they, they really did theirwork that way.
For me, they would kind of justthrow me in there.
So I sometimes, I would knowthat we're going to Kamloops.
I had no idea who we're gonnameet sometimes.
Uh, yeah.
And like I could prep it withlike, okay, Kelowna farmers,
people don't know, but a lot of,most of the farmers, um, and
(29:12):
grape growers are actually SouthAsian.
But it's not sexy for peoplewho think oh, my white man has
this winery in Napa Valley andthis is what it looks like So I
was able to like, give someinformation that way, but Joanna
and Priyanka did the work.
Paula Mohammed (29:29):
So this was part of an exploration for you as
well, and to your heritage.
If what did, what stood out themost to you that you learned or
were surprised by that youdidn't know going in about your
culture and heritage?
Shiva Reddy (29:44):
I think a huge thing is that you're told to
just take it and to just dealwith it.
And the moment that you stepinto your power and actually
speak about it is the momentthat you realize that there are
so many other people goingthrough the same thing.
And so for me it's always been,I've always felt that isolation
(30:08):
because I didn't grow up aroundthat many South, South Asian
people at all, actually.
Just because where I went toschool, where I played hockey.
And so I always felt so alonein that journey.
And the moment that I startedspeaking up about it, which is
like a faux pas.
Like you do not talk about, youdo not talk about mental
health.
(30:29):
You do not talk about anyailment.
You don't talk about anythinghappening with your family.
You just stay quiet.
You suck it up and you givethis image that everything's
great.
And that's just not how itworks.
And so my mom would bemortified knowing that I share
so much, but it's also whatmakes me me.
And I just found that by doingthat, it helped bring so many
(30:52):
people together.
And being in Kelowna,especially hearing what I was
going through, was also what,um, a wine maker, Karnail
Singh's daughter was goingthrough.
The exact thing of just feelingdifferent, feeling ugly,
feeling ugh, not good enough,and realizing that there's so
many more people going throughthe exact same thing.
We have to talk about it.
Paula Mohammed (31:14):
It is interesting what you say about,
and it came up in the docuseriesa few times too, to be a good
Indian girl, like what youshould be like.
And a few people spoke aboutthat and I see it in other
cultures.
I see it in generational thing.
I feel it myself.
And it's, I feel like it'staken me to be 55 to let go of
that.
But there's something that Iread.
(31:35):
I'm gonna get this quote wrong,but along the lines of "don't
strive to be good or to do whatyou should, but just be better,
like better for you." So it'snot about being good or doing
everything the right way, butjust be a better person.
You know, just let's worktowards being that.
And that, I thought that was,that kind of lifts some of that
(31:57):
pressure off.
And also, watching you in theseries and even now, you're so
open, you're so comfortable inwho you are.
Watching your mom in thatseries, I almost felt like it
was a bit of a contradictionfrom the stereotypical
Indo-Fijian mom saying, "youknow, you have to be quieter.
(32:19):
You can't be outspoken."Because your mom seemed to
really celebrate and be so proudof you.
You said that you did feel thatyou were supposed to keep a lid
on it.
Can you just elaborate a littlebit more on that?
Because what I saw from yourmom, and maybe that came later,
I'll let you tell us.
Shiva Reddy (32:34):
Yeah, it was so interesting because with my mom,
she was such a groundbreakingperson.
You know, defied gender roles.
You know, she went into lawenforcement.
That's not what women did.
She always spoke up againstinjustices.
That's not what women weresupposed to do.
And, she just did all of thesethings.
(32:55):
But still, no matter howpowerful she was, she still had
to abide by the cultural rules.
And that made her quiet andjust bear with it.
Just for us to be able to getby.
And it was interesting seeingkind of like that contradiction,
(33:16):
that oxymoron of like, eventhough she was so powerful, she
still had to be muted.
And I feel like she was doingit, because she wanted to make
sure that I would be okay in theworld.
I understand why she was doingit, but for me, she like,
despite the fact that she'dalways tell me, "no, don't be
loud, be good.
(33:36):
You know, present this way.
No, you can't do that.
You are a girl.
No, you have to stay home" andI feel like her dementia has
quite frankly softened her alittle bit.
But I think she just wanted thebest for me, and she was proud
of me whenever I'd speak outagainst something wrong.
She would always be proud of mewhen I stood up for myself.
(33:59):
And she always wanted me to dothat, but she also was just so
scared that something wouldhappen to me.
Um, yeah, and I just, I feellike now, it's so interesting
because I had mentioned earlierwith food, that was how she
would share her love and showher love.
That was her love language.
I never heard her say like, shewouldn't, she wouldn't really
(34:20):
hug me.
She wasn't really affectionatein that way.
I feel like I was always introuble.
She never said, "I love you."And then all of a sudden with
her dementia, and I think, Ihonestly think it's because the
switch of caregiving, because Ibecame her mom, and that's how I
show my love.
And I've always been like that,that I started doing those
things.
(34:40):
And I think she kinda liked it.
And I think she's never hadthat before.
And so now she's so loving andshe's so kind, and, you know,
she's still is just like, "oh,Shiva, come on.
Like, your hair looksridiculous.
Uh, don't, don't be like that.
Or Oh, really?
Your legs don't show those.
That's too much." Like, youknow, she'll still police me,
(35:00):
but it's in the way that like,you know, you kind of get it
from aunties and moms, soyeah...
Paula Mohammed (35:05):
Yeah.
Uh, has your mom watched theseries, the docuseries?
Shiva Reddy (35:09):
She has...
Paula Mohammed (35:11):
What was her reaction?
Shiva Reddy (35:12):
Oh, my god Paula.
She, you know what, she calledme the other day and she was
furious with me and I was tryingto figure out what was going
on.
And she was just like, "howdare you, how dare you have a
premiere?
And this big show and not tellme." And it's like, okay, you
(35:32):
were there.
You were there.
You gotta see it all.
We're not having extra things,we're just talking about it.
But she's, she's, so, you couldjust see how excited she is
that her story is up there.
Just her seeing a picture ofher in the prison services.
Her seeing a picture of timesthat were good.
(35:55):
Times that were hard.
There's something about justbeing seen when you've had to
struggle so much and almostbecome invisible and feel
helpless.
There's something about itwhere it's like, wow, this is
really powerful in that you'reable to just, your story's out
there.
So she loves it.
She absolutely loves it.
Paula Mohammed (36:16):
What a gift that you've given her too.
I know this was something foryou to explore for your
heritage, but for your mom goingthrough dementia, who's losing
a grip on who she was, to haveit celebrated like that and for
her out there and, you know, Ijust, and for her to see how,
after all of the rebelling andwanting to find your own way for
(36:38):
her to see you take on thispassion to really know your
heritage and where she came fromand, and all of that.
I imagine it was a, anunexpected byproduct of, uh,
what a wonderful gift you'vegiven her too.
Shiva Reddy (36:52):
It was sweet.
I find like, and my producerswere really awesome, Paula.
Even if there were just momentswhere we would be having a
sweet moment, or it wasn't evena part of the show and wasn't
intended to be a part of theshow, they would just go ahead
and document it, because forthem, they've experienced
dementia with parents, they'veexperienced that in the world
where they, they just know howimportant it is to capture that
(37:15):
moment and what that loss feelslike and the grief of not having
it.
So they just, they went aboveand beyond just to make sure
that those moments stay with meand stay alive.
Paula Mohammed (37:24):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Have you been to Fiji or toIndia?
Shiva Reddy (37:29):
I haven't.
I would love to go.
I feel like that's like thenext series, like after, after
we, like, after we go acrossCanada, we get the funding.
That'd be great.
After we go across Canada andwe learn more about South Asian
heritage, I feel like thatshould be like season three.
Paula Mohammed (37:46):
Absolutely.
Oh yeah.
I, I'd be watching it for sure.
Okay, so let's jump ahead orback kind of ahead.
I'm also dying to know how youbecame a sommelier?
Shiva Reddy (37:57):
Yes.
Paula Mohammed (37:58):
Yeah.
Tell us about that.
Shiva Reddy (38:00):
Yeah.
And so when like there was thesamosa hustling.
I feel like I just always lovedfood so much and just also the
idea of sewa, like of alwayskind of taking care of others
through food, through like ourway of showing love.
Naturally, like the sewa, Ifound in hospitality.
(38:22):
And I like, I loved doing it.
I love doing it so much.
And then I got to be aroundfood and I got to learn.
But then, growing up in ahousehold with no alcohol, all
of a sudden I started learningabout wine and it was all of the
things that I love.
I love, I love consuming yummythings.
I love trying things.
(38:42):
And then you learn abouthistory.
You learn about pop culture.
You learn about people.
You learn about farming.
You get to learn everything.
And the idea of trying tofigure out what somebody likes
for wine when they don't know,uh, it's very thrilling.
It's very exciting when younail it.
And also like by being yourselfis the way to go.
(39:04):
And so I found that theexposure to wine was just so
exciting.
I had to get more, and so Ijust went down the rabbit hole.
I couldn't afford the likeuniversity schooling because I
was taking care of my mom at thetime.
But what I could do is I couldget scholarships.
So I got scholarships fromassociations like the Les Dames
D'Escoffier, and BC HospitalityFoundation and so they basically
(39:29):
helped pay for my schooling forwine.
And even then I just couldn'tget enough and I found that I
was, because I was so excited, Iwas working my way up the wine
world here in Vancouver inrestaurants, and it just was one
of those things I just keptdoing it because I love doing it
so much and it, it became this,um, as well.
Paula Mohammed (39:52):
Coming up in the wine world in Vancouver as a
young woman and as a woman fromIndo-Fijian Indian descent
heritage, did that have animpact on your experience or
not?
Shiva Reddy (40:05):
Absolutely.
I feel like it was verychallenging because I
simultaneously would be hiredbecause I would check every box
of diversity of like, you'reyoung, you're a woman, you're of
color.
Cool.
Okay.
So then that would always makeme question is that why I'm
here?
(40:25):
Like, is that what's happening?
And then realizing, yeah, thatis exactly why I'm here.
But then knowing that, hey, I'mactually good at my job too.
I'm doing a great job and Iknow that I'm good at this.
So that was huge.
But also moving up in the wineworld, it just feels like there
isn't a spot for me.
You know, I, I see the workthat I've done.
(40:47):
I see that because I had tostruggle and because I didn't
feel welcomed and I said, hey,whatever.
There's space now for theyounger generation, but when I
was coming up in the wine world,everybody was a white guy.
And I just noticed that like,oh, I'm not getting invited to
these tastings.
Oh, I'm not a part of this.
Why not?
What's going on?
And a lot of it was because Iwas being told all the time to
(41:09):
not rock the boat.
I was being told to be quietand just do my job.
And the moment that I would sayhey, that was actually
inappropriate, that's not okay",was the moment that I was told
that I was difficult, um, wasthe moment that I'd get worked
harder and given the worst jobs,but I'd still do it and get
(41:30):
through it.
But, I found that they justwanted me to be there and to
essentially shut up and lookpretty and, and just get it
done.
And I found that when I startedspeaking up, that's when I felt
my power that I could do this.
And then I started seeing thechanges happen.
Now I see that there's spacefor the younger generations.
(41:50):
But I always just felt reallyalone, like you know?
Paula Mohammed (41:53):
What a shame.
I find it hard to believe thatwe still deal with this in 2025,
but...
Shiva Reddy (41:58):
Yeah.
Paula Mohammed (41:59):
I can't imagine you having a lid put on you.
Shiva Reddy (42:01):
Yeah, no, it's not possible.
Don't, it's not gonna work.
Don't do it.
But yeah, I find it a veryinteresting conversation because
we, when we look at thehospitality industry, we kind of
all grew up seeing like theAnthony Bourdain story of ah,
yeah, it's hard.
This is a tough world." AndGordon Ramsey, where they're
(42:23):
kind of glamorizing the being anasshole thing.
And customers come in, theyalways ask like, have you seen
The Bear?
Is it like that?
Is it like that?
And it's like, do you want itto be like that?
Because that's not okay.
Do you want me to be treatedlike that?
Dude, that's not cool.
And so I feel like it's kind ofboth ways where it's like
within the industry thathappens, but then outside of the
(42:43):
industry, people kind of wantthat.
They don't want it.
They don't want it, but they dowant it.
So it's very challenging tokind of change that narrative
and change that system too.
Paula Mohammed (42:53):
Right.
Do you have a philosophy aroundwine?
Like one or two sentences?
Is there something that you goby?
Shiva Reddy (43:00):
Yes, I want my wine to be made by people who are
nice and kind.
And I want my wine to be tasty.
Because that way I know thatthey took care of their land.
They made the wine in arespectful way.
They were respectful to thepeople who were there to help
(43:22):
them.
And I think things taste betterwhen that's the case.
But also I just wanted to beyummy.
I just, that's all I want.
It's simple and just down toearth.
You know, wine shouldn't beinaccessible.
It shouldn't be scary.
It's just grape juice at theend, you know.
Paula Mohammed (43:38):
So true.
A curry, say a meat curry, alittle bit spicy: wine or beer
or neither?
Shiva Reddy (43:46):
You can do anything you want.
The world's your oyster.
I feel like oftentimes, likeespecially with curry and uh,
anything ethnic let's say whenit comes to food, people get
scared and they're like, oh no,you have to do something sweet.
And it's like, no challengeyourself.
Like you could do whatever youwant.
I think you're having a goatcurry.
(44:07):
Yum.
Traditionally you'd be like abig Syrah or a big Shiraz
because it's juicy, jammy andit's like, it doesn't have to
be.
You know what you can do?
You can have like a Cinsaultcoming from South Africa.
It would be tasty.
You can really challenge yourpalette and it's, I don't know,
I think sometimes we like getstuck on these pairings where
it's like textbook.
Like, oh yes, no, it has to belike this.
Paula Mohammed (44:31):
It's the should.
The should syndrome.
Shiva Reddy (44:33):
Yeah, the should syndrome kind of sucks because
like, what if you don't like it?
You know?
If you wanna drink chardonnaywith a steak, have adder because
it's up to you.
You're gonna have a great time.
So screw the rules that way.
Because they're not gonna benecessarily made for you all the
time.
Paula Mohammed (44:49):
Right.
So I often ask guests when theycome to the show to share a
recipe or a dish with us that wecan include in our In My
Kitchen community.
So it goes out to them.
I'm putting you on the spothere, but if you have a dish
that you could share the recipebehind the scenes later, what
would it be and why?
Shiva Reddy (45:09):
Yeah, I think for me it would be the one that I
was the most scared of making.
And that is my mom's dal.
There was something about itthat was just pure magic, Paula.
Like, it was just so flavorful,nutritious, and just like it
would always be a staple in thehouse.
And I've been, I tried for solong to figure out what goes in
(45:33):
it.
So it's still in progress, butI think I nailed it.
But essentially it would belike a Fijian style of dal,
which realized recently becauseI was like, what is missing from
here?
I've made this now 200 times.
I read a million recipes.
I keep asking my mom.
Turns out the Fijian stylewould have a mango pit, like
fresh mango pit.
So like, yeah, it's just likebright, vibrant.
(45:55):
You have lentils as your base.
What you would then do is you'dhave things like curry leaves,
bay leaves, onions, eggplant,tomato, garlic, you know,
everything yummy and deliciousis in there with turmeric as
well.
And then you just let thatsimmer.
And then after it's done, um,there's this thing called chonk,
(46:18):
uh, or chunk, depending on howyou say it.
But essentially, after you'redone cooking all of that, you'd
add in your tamarind.
You'd add in maybe somecilantro, and then from there
you would have ghee.
You'd cook the ghee with likecumin, some other spices,
onions, chili, and then you'dpour that on top and you'd mix
(46:42):
that in.
And that's where you get thisincredible flavor.
And I've learned thatmeasurements are hard, because
it is just like a feeling thing.
Like I feel like I could neveruse a pressure cooker, because
for me it's a feeling of like, Ilook at it, I'm smelling it,
and it's oh, that doesn't lookright.
And so it might say twotablespoons, but sometimes it
(47:07):
might actually be six.
And I didn't get it when my momwould say that of just eh, I
don't know.
It's one tablespoon.
And then I'd see her adding inmore later and it's oh, it's all
feeling.
So, yeah, so you just have tobe present with it, which is
wild.
Paula Mohammed (47:21):
I love that though.
I think that's, that's the wayto do it.
We'll include that recipe inour In My Kitchen community.
So if people are interested,the link for that will be in
there.
And I know I wanna keepfollowing along on your journey
and for listeners who want toalso follow you and watch, Not
Your Butter Chicken, what arethe best ways to do that and
(47:42):
I'll include this in the shownotes as well.
Shiva Reddy (47:44):
Absolutely.
To follow me, it would beInstagram for me.
I, I only can do the one.
I can only do one social media.
Everything else is toooverwhelming.
But yeah, my Instagram handlewill be, it's ready.
So itsreddy91.
Yes, nine one for the year ofmy birth.
Uh, ha ha.
And then also you could watchNot Your Butter Chicken.
(48:07):
It's now streaming on CBC Gem,uh, which is super exciting.
And then also you can find it,if you have Telus as well as
it's a Telus Original Series.
Paula Mohammed (48:18):
Got it.
And congratulations again onyour LEO nomination.
And there was a few for theseries that got nominated.
Shiva Reddy (48:24):
Yeah, we're very lucky.
Yeah, so the LEO Awards.
We're gonna find out in a fewweeks if we get it, we're, we
actually have a couplenominations on there, and then
we were able to be a part ofmany different, um, film
festival circuits as well, whichwas incredible.
Paula Mohammed (48:39):
It's a wonderful docuseries, so I can see why
it's getting the accolades.
Shiva, what is next for ShivaReddy?
Shiva Reddy (48:47):
I really never know.
I kind of just go with it andthen things just happen.
But honestly, I love food.
I love wine.
I love talking about it andlearning.
So my dream is to have morelike Not Your Butter Chicken.
I love the idea of having ashow where I get to just be
curious and explore, like my CBCjob is my dream job.
(49:09):
So if I can make that more ofjust being curious and, and
learning more about food, aboutpeople, sharing that, that's all
I wanna do.
Paula Mohammed (49:18):
Well, you're amazing at it, and I can
completely understand why youwanna do that.
It's a privilege, isn't it?
To get, get to know people andunderstand and, and I've, I feel
very lucky to have been able tosort of pull back that kitchen
door a bit and to Shiva Reddytoday.
It's been just lovely.
You're such a joy to connectwith.
I wish we were in personsharing dal.
Shiva Reddy (49:40):
Yeah.
Come on over to my kitchen,Paula.
Paula Mohammed (49:42):
Thank you so much for being on the show,
Shiva.
Shiva Reddy (49:45):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Paula Mohammed (49:47):
If you've just finished listening to this
podcast episode, go over to CBCGem or on Telus and watch the
Not Your Butter Chickendocuseries with Shiva Reddy.
Really great production andwonderful people that Shiva
meets along the way.
I had so much fun doing thisepisode with Shiva.
Definitely try Shiva's recipe.
(50:10):
You can find it atexploreinmykitchen.com which is
our In My Kitchen community.
If you enjoyed this episode orlearned something new, please
like and review it on ApplePodcasts.
And until next time, happycooking and happy travels.
Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed and welcome to In My
Kitchen with Paula.
This podcast is a gatheringplace for culinary adventurers
who love to travel.
Every week, we'll come togetherwith chefs, cookbook authors,
talented home cooks, andeveryone in between to talk
about their story and theirunique dish.
Using food as the vehicle,we'll take a ride into the ins
(00:21):
and outs of their culture andcountry.
Come on, let's get this partystarted.
In this episode of In MyKitchen with Paula.
I am so excited to share withyou a chat I had with Shiva
reddy.
Shiva is amongst many otherthings, the host of a four-part
docuseries called Not YourButter Chicken.
(00:43):
Shiva is a catalyst for me, uh,exploring my heritage on my
dad's side, Pakistani sidebecause of this four-part
docuseries and the way sheapproaches it.
Fascinating, insightful, butmore than anything really peels
back the layers of the immigrantstory to small towns in British
(01:03):
Columbia.
And this is Indian immigrants.
But she looks at also the storyof the women.
What the women bring to thetable and I think we often
overlook that.
I do this myself.
I always talk about it fromwhen my dad came over, he came
with nothing.
His father, his grandfather,but my dad came with his mother
(01:23):
and his grandmother.
And I often don't look at itfrom their perspective and what
that meant and what theysacrificed and what they brought
to the table.
Same with on my New Zealandside.
I often talk about Wharaepapa,the Maori chief who's in our
family lineage.
But you don't hear me talkingabout the woman, Elizabeth Reid,
whom he married and broughtover from England and what that
(01:45):
was like for her.
After this chat with Shiva,it's really got me thinking
about celebrating and honouringwomen, us, and what we bring to
the table.
From cooking family dinners toum, carrying on recipes that
were passed down to us, we'recarrying on the lineage, the
(02:06):
stories of our families, andwe're nurturing and sharing love
with those near and dearest tous.
Shiva and I talk about a lotmore, but this is what it
triggered in my brain and what'sfront of mind for me right now.
Have a listen, enjoy, and uh,definitely try Shiva's recipe.
Hi, Shiva.
(02:26):
Welcome to the show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Shiva Reddy (02:29):
Hi, thanks for having me!
Paula Mohammed (02:31):
I am gonna give just a quick, brief background
on who Shiva is.
Shiva is a sommelier and thefood columnist for CBC
Vancouver.
She is nominated for a LEOAward for her work as the host
for her new series, Not YourButter Chicken, which streams on
CBC Gem and I can't say enoughabout it.
And we're gonna get intochatting more about that because
(02:51):
I imagine it was, uh, veryrewarding, but also a super
intense experience.
But before we do, let's likeback it up a bit because I've
got this curiosity about you andI'm sure my listeners will too.
But tell us a little bit aboutgrowing up as Shiva Reddy.
Who you were, where you grewup, what life was like.
Shiva Reddy (03:09):
Yeah, so growing up I actually was born and raised
here in Vancouver, BC.
Um, and to an immigrant family.
My parents were both immigrantsfrom Fiji and they were much
older, so they were kind of likemy grandparents.
So for the first few years ofmy life, I grew up with lots of
cousins around me.
They were, well, I should say,they were actually my nieces and
(03:30):
nephews, but I called themcousins because of the age gap
between me and my siblings.
Um, and then, yeah, and then Ialso grew up playing hockey, and
around a lot of food.
My mom was quite sick when Iwas growing up after my dad had
passed, and so I ended upbecoming her caregiver.
And then during that time Iworked my way up the restaurant
world and kind of becameobsessed with wine.
Paula Mohammed (03:53):
I read a, uh, story somewhere in an article,
something about you hustlingsamosas at a young age.
What was that about?
Shiva Reddy (04:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, yeah.
So when my dad had passed, mymom unfortunately was a part of
a very bad car accident whereshe was hit from behind and it
just essentially destroyed herleg.
So she couldn't work anymore.
She was a registered nursebefore my dad had passed.
And then she needed to dosomething, so she opened up a
(04:23):
daycare at home.
She went back to school to dothat, and it was going very
well.
And then the accident happened,so she just couldn't work
anymore.
And I was very young at thattime, and so we just didn't have
money to get by really.
And my mom, incredible cook.
And so what she would do is shewould make rotis, she'd make
curry, but her samosas wereiconic.
(04:46):
And so I would go around and Iwould sell them.
And by selling them, I wouldjust tell people that I have
them.
And then word would spread.
And so basically all of myteachers would purchase them.
All of my friends' parentswould purchase them.
I'm pretty sure we, like, Iwent to the high school Lord
Byng, I'm pretty sure most kidsfor lunch ate her Samosas and
(05:09):
were raised on them.
Uh, and then my hockey teamwould buy samosas.
So I would also be there justhelping her roll out all the
samosas and make them, and thenI would be the one who's like
essentially hustling them andselling them to everybody.
Paula Mohammed (05:20):
Oh my gosh.
You know, totally going off ona tangent, but you went to Lord
Byng.
My dad immigrated from Pakistanwhen he was 18 and went to Lord
Byng, and I went to Prince ofWales just down the road from
Lord, I'm now.
I'm a lot older than Shiva.
You guys can't see thisbeautiful young woman in front
of me.
But, uh, so different,different times.
(05:40):
But when we moved here from NewZealand, my parents put us into
summer school because the mathwas different and we had to
learn some French.
And there was a young girl thatsat behind me and she came from
an Indian family and she wouldcome to school with these
lunches that just smelled sogood.
And finally I was so shy, but Iturned around and I said, "oh,
(06:02):
is that such and such curry?"And she was shocked, you know,
in the eighties it wasn't coolto be, have the last name
Mohammed, or be Indian orPakistani.
And so we connected and shewould start bringing extra
lunches with samosas and thedifferent curries and biryani
from her family.
And we would have lunchtogether over shared curry.
I would've been buying yoursamosas if I had had your number
(06:22):
back then.
Shiva Reddy (06:23):
Honestly, the funny thing is that there were the
samosas that I was hustling, butalso my mom knew that my
friends, she knew that that theywere eating bologna sandwiches,
Paula.
So she was just like, here,here's a little bit more for
your friend Stefana.
Please make sure, make sureJessica eats, eats something.
So she was always concerned, soshe'd always make so much more
(06:44):
for them so that they wouldn'teat a perfect sandwich as well.
But yeah, anyways.
Paula Mohammed (06:49):
That's so cute.
Were you raised with the Indianvalues and cultures in
western...?
What was that like for you?
Shiva Reddy (06:57):
Oh yeah, yeah.
It's really interestingbecause, because of the
generation gap with myself andmy mom.
She's old enough to be mygrandma.
She had me at 47 and so yeah.
And so I, I found that like,because she wasn't maybe in her
(07:17):
thirties when she had me, ortwenties when she had me, and
wasn't born here, she didn'tassimilate in the same way, like
she came to a Canada thatwasn't perfect, but there was
still that idea ofmulticulturalism.
So she was very, very proud ofwhere she came from.
Um, and so growing up, youknow, we would go to the temple
(07:38):
every single week, sometimesevery day.
We were doing traditionalclassical dancing for me.
I liked playing hockey, so thatwas her way of making sure that
I balanced it out and I was agood Indian girl.
But yeah it was very much so apart of our culture and there
was no, there was no shamearound it.
There would be like, for me,growing up playing hockey, being
(07:59):
like, "ugh, my hockey gearsmells like curry again.
Ugh." You know, there was that.
I'm like, "my hair smells likecurry.
Ugh." But then the curry wouldbe so good.
But my mom really wanted tomake sure that I spoke the
language, that I ate the food.
She didn't teach me how to cookthe food, but she wanted to
make sure that I was asingrained in my culture as
(08:20):
possible because she just sawhow important it was.
Especially with having seen theassimilation when she had first
come here, of people just noteven wanting to be a part of the
culture because they justwanted to fit in.
So I, yeah, I feel very luckyabout that.
Paula Mohammed (08:35):
I read that your, is it true your mom was in
the police force in Fiji.
So unbelievable.
Like, she sounds like such anamazing woman.
I, I really wanna know aboutyou Shiva, but I'm also
fascinated by your mother sinceI've been watching this series
and what I've read.
Yeah.
Shiva Reddy (08:50):
Honestly Paula, this is her show.
And it's funny because like shewill call me and she'll be
like, so how my show, where isit?
How is it doing?
Why didn't I get to go to thistalk?
Like if I tell her about ustalking today, she's going to be
upset that she wasn't here.
So, uh, it's very much so abouther.
But yes, she was actually thefirst female police officer in
(09:13):
Fiji.
Um, and then she also was oneof the first females to run the
prison services in Fiji as well.
And so just like a lot of, andlike a very interesting focus on
reconciliation at that timethat like wasn't really
happening in the prisonservices.
But yeah, she had to leave thatall behind despite the fact
(09:34):
that she worked so hard to getthere.
Because she was too old.
She was 36 and her parentswanted her to get married, so
that's why she came to Canadafor an arranged marriage with my
dad.
Paula Mohammed (09:45):
Gotcha.
So did she meet your dad, uh,for the first time in Canada
then?
Shiva Reddy (09:49):
Absolutely.
It was old school where she wasjust shown photos and he
happened to be the most handsomeone who looked the youngest as
well.
Turns out he was the oldest,but she didn't know that until
after they were married.
Paula Mohammed (10:02):
The hockey piece.
That's something I've beencurious about too.
How did you first fall in lovewith hockey?
And did your mom drive you allover?
I know now people gotta drivefor hours to get to their kid's
tournaments and whatnot.
Shiva Reddy (10:15):
Yes.
And you know, she did drivehours.
So I feel like being a kid ofimmigrants, uh, naturally, that
you want to be as Canadian aspossible.
And so hockey was the thing.
And so we grew up watching somuch hockey.
My brother played, and then I,I wanted to play too, and my mom
(10:35):
had no question around of like,"no, you're a girl, you can't
do that".
For her, it was like, "oh,you're interested?
Yes.
Let's, let's get you in there."Um, and then also I wanted to
be a goalie because, you know,it looked like fun.
Ah, uh, but you know what?
Even when we like really hadnothing, there was still
(10:56):
somehow, some way, this will forher to make sure that I was
able to get it.
And so, yeah.
So she would drive everywhereand because I was, I was pretty
good and at the time there werevery few female hockey programs.
What she did was she woulddrive me up to North Vancouver,
West Vancouver almost everyother day so that I could play
(11:19):
hockey up there for a goodprogram.
And then she'd drive me out toDelta, uh, for goalie school,
and then she would drive all theway to California for
tournaments.
She did not miss a game.
She was there for every singleone.
Paula Mohammed (11:32):
Amazing.
Absolutely amazing.
Shiva, I, I, I keep saying it,your Indian culture, but there's
so many different sects ofIndian culture and religions.
What do you identify with?
Shiva Reddy (11:44):
It's in progress, uh, quite frankly, but my family
is originally from South India,which would identify with
Hinduism.
So I speak Hindi.
My family had to go throughwhat was called girmit, where
indentured slavery essentiallyhappened.
Indentured workers were takenfrom India, and they didn't know
(12:06):
where they were gonna end up.
Her family ended up in Fiji.
And Fiji's just this incredibleplace where like, you have so
many different cultures comingtogether, and it's just,
everybody from Fiji is sofriendly.
From there, my parents thenmigrated here.
So we're Indo-Fijian, but like,yeah.
And for me it's so, it's sointeresting because I'm just, I
(12:27):
feel like I've been trying tofigure out where I fit in
because as a kid, a Canadiankid, born and raised here, you
know, I still get the question,where are you from?
And it's like, well, I actuallygrew up here.
I'm from here.
I'm Canadian.
You know, so that, that was thefirst thing of being like,
okay, why are you making me theother all of a sudden?
And then there was aconversation around "hey, but
(12:49):
we're Fijian, but I've neverbeen to Fiji, but my parents are
from Fiji.
Am I Fijian?" And then therewould be the conversation of in
my head as a kid, just beinglike, if I just streamline it
and just tell them that I amborn here and my family's
originally from India, I don'thave to have the whole
conversation.
And now as I get older.
And especially with doing NotYour Butter Chicken and
(13:10):
traveling across Canada andmeeting so many different South
Asians.
It's been very coolunderstanding that.
Right, India is so big.
Each place is like a differentlittle country in itself.
And we're all so different, butwe're all kind of the same.
And so I'm coming to realizevery much so my roots of the
(13:31):
Indo-Fijian here in Canada.
Paula Mohammed (13:34):
Amazing.
I have to tell you watchingyour series.
Actually sparked this, um,bizarre, uh, realization in me
where I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm 50%Pakistani.
And I said this to my mom lastnight and she goes, Paula, like,
yeah, I have, I mean, what,what are you talking about?
But if you, people who've likein my community through In My
(13:55):
Kitchen know that I am soenthralled by my New Zealand
side of our story, the Maoriside, where in actual fact I'm
1/32 Maori.
That's about it.
But it's a really interestingstory there.
And your series has actuallyput me on this journey of
wanting to find out more aboutmy heritage.
And a lot of our family now is,uh, in Yuba City, Sacramento,
(14:17):
and I wanna go down.
Unfortunately, my dad passedaway in 2010 and you know, he
went through the partition,lived in Pakistan till he was
18, and then came here, butnever really talked about it.
And I wish he embraced hisheritage like your mom did.
So anyway, thank you becauseI'm on this exploration about,
uh, learning more about Pakistanand our culture and who my dad
(14:40):
was at that time.
So it's, it's, uh, it'sinteresting and I'm a bit
annoyed at myself for not beinginterested.
But again, in the seventies andeighties as a young girl, you
didn't wanna be different.
When people ask me where areyou from?
It sounds like maybe it was thesame for you, but it made me a
bit upset.
I was well, I'm, I'm fromCanada, I'm Canadian.
No, but where really, like,where are you really from?
I was like, I'm Canadian.
(15:01):
Then I would throw them off andsay, well, New Zealand.
You know?
Shiva Reddy (15:05):
Absolutely.
But I, I so resonate with that.
I'm just like wanting to knowmore about your culture, but
just, you know, for the sake ofother people, you're trying to
simplify it and then you realizethat like you are the one who's
missing out on it.
So I'm excited for you in yourjourney.
Paula Mohammed (15:20):
Yeah.
No, it's, it's, uh, tasty.
That's for sure.
Fijian curries are hot.
Spicy.
Is that what your mom's currieswere like?
Shiva Reddy (15:29):
You know, it's so interesting I find because
there's that influence of SouthIndia as well as Fijian, it's,
if anything, just bright andvibrant.
With my mom's curries, eventhough she did not eat meat, she
was a vegetarian, she made themost incredible goat curry,
(15:49):
chicken curry.
But there was always balance.
It was always balance betweenthat spice as well.
They would be on the spicierside, but still she would make
it so that you were able toactually taste the flavors and
not just be overtaken by spice.
Paula Mohammed (16:03):
It sounds like food played a big role in your
upbringing through your mom.
Shiva Reddy (16:08):
Absolutely, yeah.
I feel like we had the iconicmother daughter clashing as, as
you grow especially with the,especially with the cultural
aspect of like, we had thecommonality that we are the same
culture, but also not.
She had her Indo-Fijianculture.
Me, Canadian, also Indian,Fijian.
(16:32):
But there was this likedisconnect there where we were
just, we're trying to figure itout and I feel like I, we just
weren't in the same space.
So there was always tensionthere, but, but Paula, she was
such an incredible cook thatwhen we would fight, I would
very quickly in my head, likemeasure out and negotiate with
myself to be like, "is thisreally worth it?
(16:52):
Because I'm not gonna be ableto eat the roti after this." I
may as well stick it out.
I'm gonna be mad, but I amgonna have to get over it
because I kind of, it's notworth it.
I kind of wanna have the dal, Iwanna have the roti.
Paula Mohammed (17:06):
Isn't that true?
How food, food can bring peopleback together from enemies to
just a nothing said, just here'sthe dish.
Shiva Reddy (17:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Paula Mohammed (17:16):
Tell me about Not Your Butter Chicken.
You've probably been asked thisa hundred times, but I gotta
ask you how you came up with thetitle and what was the catalyst
to create this docuseries?
Shiva Reddy (17:27):
Yeah.
So with the name Not YourButter Chicken, it was so
important because I feel likepeople, when they would meet me,
they'd be like, okay, where areyou from?
Hmm.
And then they'd go into theconversation of, oh my god, your
butter chicken must be so good.
And it's like, ugh, we don'tmake butter chicken.
(17:48):
We just go out and eat some,but we are more than butter
chicken.
And so it kind of fueled fromthat of being like, guys, come
on.
Also, butter chicken's made notfor us.
Uh, it's made by us, but notnecessarily for us.
And so yeah, it kind of sparkedthat exploration and almost
like this, uh, I don't know, amini fury of being like, guys,
(18:11):
open your eyes.
We're so much more than this.
Let's explore what we have tooffer.
Uh, so that was kind of theidea behind Not Your Butter
Chicken.
Paula Mohammed (18:20):
What did you hope to achieve through the
series and do you feel like atthe other end of it now you, you
got to the place you wanted toget to?
Shiva Reddy (18:28):
Oh gosh.
I feel like I had so manyquestions and I thought they'd
all be answered, but Paula, letme tell you, I just have even
more questions at the end of it.
Um, but the idea and the reasonwhy it all happened was because
my mom has dementia, which is avery big part of the story and
kind of why I was set onto it,because I found that I was
(18:50):
taking care of my mom, whichI've been doing since I was
young.
But there was this veryspecific turning point where,
you know, she became my kid andI kind of became the mom and our
roles reversed, um, at when Iwas quite young.
And I just found that she wasin the hospital so much and it
would literally break her soulreceiving hospital food because
(19:13):
she, you know, it, the foodshould be something that's
uplifting.
It should be nourishing, itshould make you, it should
literally make you feel alive.
But she would see the food andit would just be like a glob of
something and it would tastelike nothing.
And this is somebody who was anincredible cook.
She knew what she was doing andit would just make her cry.
(19:34):
And so I realized that the onlyway to a) keep her alive in
many ways, her spirit, her body,everything was to be able to
figure out how she made it.
Now, the thing is, is that whenI was growing up, she always
told me to be a good Indiangirl, which is always a thing of
like, you have to be a goodIndian girl.
(19:54):
You need to know how to cook,so come on, learn.
But Paula, I would find that Iwould always want to learn.
I've been very curious since Iwas a kid, and she would somehow
get me out of the kitchen, haveme sitting on the couch with
like a cup of chai and it'slike, how did this happen?
(20:15):
How did you deceive me?
I wanna learn.
Uh, and I realized that it wasa thing where she always wanted
me to come back.
It was her way of showing herlove and by cooking, by feeding
me, it was a way to make sureI'd always come home to her.
And now it was kind of thesame, like the food that she
made created a home for me andnow I had to do that for her.
(20:37):
And so that's how I started totry to learn how to cook for her
when she was so sick.
And then I realized that like,oh my God, she didn't write
anything down.
She did everything by likefeel, which is unfortunately how
I do it now too.
But I, through my wineknowledge as a sommelier, I
started having to like, like forthose who might not know a
(21:00):
sommelier, I basically tastewine and I try to figure out
where it's from.
I also try to find the rightwines for people.
But the idea, I find it's sogrounding, but you basically
have a taste and all of a suddenyou're traveling through all of
your memories, all of theflavors you've experienced,
everything, all of the smells,and you're trying to go through
(21:20):
and figure out what it is.
And so I feel like because ofthat background, I was able to
kind of do the same thing withflavors.
And then document obsessively.
Um, because her dementia, shewouldn't be quite sure of what
the recipes were.
They'd always be different.
So I'd have recordings, I'dwrite them down and, and I
almost wanna pull out my hairbecause it never made sense.
(21:41):
And then even with her tryingto cook as well, it wasn't the
same anymore.
So that's how it all started ofme trying to cook for her.
And through that, I realizedthat that was a tie to my
heritage.
My mom was my heritage and shewas forgetting what our heritage
was.
And that's kind of what seteverything to go.
Paula Mohammed (22:05):
And for our listeners who may not know, the
Not Your Butter Chicken seriesgoes through four different
small towns in BC and lookingand chatting with people from
India and, and kinda looking attheir lives through the lens of
food and wine.
And yeah, it's fascinating.
(22:25):
I hope there's a cookbook thatcomes out out of all this as
well.
I don't know, I'm just gonnathrow that out there.
But with your mom's recipes andthe recipe, like watching it,
it's just like, I, I didn't knowroti.
I mean, I grew up learning tomake roti from my grandmother,
Bibi, and uh, but I had no ideaabout the significance of roti
in the Pakistanian Indianculture.
(22:46):
That was so interesting how...
Shiva Reddy (22:48):
Absolutely.
Paula Mohammed (22:49):
In every culture, bread has such a huge
role in the significance of the,of the culture.
Shiva Reddy (22:57):
Yeah.
No, and, and in this one, inFort McMurray, we met this woman
who was a famous star.
Uh, she was an iconic model,actress, singer, everything.
And she literally, like my mom,left it all behind for a
marriage so that she can havekids.
And out of everywhere in theworld her husband picked, it was
(23:20):
Fort McMurray, right?
Ah.
which, like, it was so coolseeing what she had done.
She was so depressed.
What she was able to makesomething of it herself.
But what she taught me was thatsignificance of roti, of like,
when you're making a roti, it'salmost like there's a story of
you need to make the perfectroti.
(23:40):
It needs to be round, it needsto puff up perfectly, otherwise
your mother-in-law won't likeyou.
And so the idea was that youteach your daughter how to make
the perfect roti so that yourmother-in-law will like you.
And then you have that safetyof being in a family that will
take care of you.
Um, and it was almost like asafety thing that's then passed
(24:01):
down through the generations.
I had no idea.
I just thought the roti'ssupposed to be round.
mine.
Mine are not round.
Mine look like country snails.
Paula Mohammed (24:10):
I've, I've resorted to buying them
actually, and then just heatingthem up.
I don't, I don't know, it mayexplain why I'm divorced.
Shiva Reddy (24:18):
Nope.
Honestly, no, no, no.
Not at all.
Absolutely not.
Nope.
Your roti's I'm sure aredelicious.
Paula Mohammed (24:24):
Watching the series, I couldn't help tying a
connection between each episodeand a value that that came out.
Each one spoke to me in adifferent way.
So episode one, a lot of, I'mgonna pronounce this wrong about
sewa?
Shiva Reddy (24:38):
Sewa.
Paula Mohammed (24:40):
And I wanna come back and ask you about that.
And then episode two reallyspoke to me about resilience.
Episode three was curiosity andhope, and then four courage
just came out.
I was curious if there was anintention of that happening, or
is that reflective of the Indiancultural values?
Or is this just Paula Mohammedhaving her own lens, uh, thrown
(25:03):
out there and, and...
Shiva Reddy (25:04):
I love it.
No, there's always a reason.
It was just like there's, therewas almost too many things and
so it was so hard to narrow itdown.
My producers were incredible.
Joanna and, uh, Priyanka Desai.
Um, they just did such a greatjob of trying to figure out what
were these common themes thatwe had with the idea of sewa.
(25:26):
It's such an ingrained part ofour culture.
Sewa is essentially givingback, taking care of each other,
no matter who the person is andso when we went to Kamloops, we
were able to meet someincredible people.
People who had immigrated fromIndia in the sixties, um, and
(25:47):
they settled there and they weretold that they would have so
much opportunity, only to arriveand realize there was nothing.
So they literally had to sowthe land.
Um, they were being paid a$1.60 at the most an hour and
being worked so hard in thesawmills.
And they were still able tocreate the first gurdwara, like
(26:10):
in their own home.
And then that built into alarger gurdwara, which is there
right now.
And they have this incrediblething called langar, where no
matter who you are, no matterwhere you come from, what you
look like, you have the abilityto have a seat at the table and
you will be fed.
And whatever you need, theywill make sure as a community
(26:33):
that they're taking care of youand that everybody's bringing
each other up.
Um, and that was just sobeautiful.
And it was a thing where Ididn't know the word sewa, which
is so silly growing up, butthat's what my mom did.
We would go to the temple.
We'd have food for everybodyand it didn't matter if we had
nothing, there was stillsomething we could give.
(26:54):
And that was so significant.
And so the sewa and then theresilience was interesting
because we always hear about howwhen you come to Canada, it's
usually a man's story of he camehere and he had $5 in his
pocket and he just made it.
But we never hear about thesilent sacrifices of women.
(27:14):
And that's kind of the story ofmy mom, the story of Shweta,
it's so common.
Well, we never get to hearabout it.
And kind of the story goes onand on and like the idea of what
will they say?
Um, which is the last episode,one of my favorites of, of my
mom especially.
But of the idea of why are wedoing it for them?
(27:34):
We have to do it for us.
We build this for us.
Yeah.
Paula Mohammed (27:40):
Can you just tell our listeners what is a
gurdwara?
What is a gurdwara, for whodon't know?
Shiva Reddy (27:46):
Absolutely.
So a gurdwara is a Sikh temple,essentially a place of worship.
Uh, and langar is essentiallyrun by, we call them the langar
ladies.
They would, they come in aroundlike 5:00 AM, 4:00 AM in the
morning, and they just cookmeals for the community.
They do it for free.
(28:06):
Everything is donated and theyjust, they just show up and they
do it, and then they serve itto their community as well.
And it's just so beautiful.
Paula Mohammed (28:14):
Wow.
How did you find, or how didyour producers know where they
wanted to go and, and how didthey find the people that you
ended up meeting andinterviewing with?
Shiva Reddy (28:25):
Uh, honestly, it was one of those things where
sometimes we didn't know whereit would go.
Uh, sometimes, you know,there'd be stories of like Fort
Mac for example, of me sharingmy own stories.
These were things that myproducers did not know, but we
kind of just had to roll withit.
They did a lot of research intothe history of the area, the
history of the people, um.
(28:47):
And went further and further.
So they, they really did theirwork that way.
For me, they would kind of justthrow me in there.
So I sometimes, I would knowthat we're going to Kamloops.
I had no idea who we're gonnameet sometimes.
Uh, yeah.
And like I could prep it withlike, okay, Kelowna farmers,
people don't know, but a lot of,most of the farmers, um, and
(29:12):
grape growers are actually SouthAsian.
But it's not sexy for peoplewho think oh, my white man has
this winery in Napa Valley andthis is what it looks like So I
was able to like, give someinformation that way, but Joanna
and Priyanka did the work.
Paula Mohammed (29:29):
So this was part of an exploration for you as
well, and to your heritage.
If what did, what stood out themost to you that you learned or
were surprised by that youdidn't know going in about your
culture and heritage?
Shiva Reddy (29:44):
I think a huge thing is that you're told to
just take it and to just dealwith it.
And the moment that you stepinto your power and actually
speak about it is the momentthat you realize that there are
so many other people goingthrough the same thing.
And so for me it's always been,I've always felt that isolation
(30:08):
because I didn't grow up aroundthat many South, South Asian
people at all, actually.
Just because where I went toschool, where I played hockey.
And so I always felt so alonein that journey.
And the moment that I startedspeaking up about it, which is
like a faux pas.
Like you do not talk about, youdo not talk about mental
health.
(30:29):
You do not talk about anyailment.
You don't talk about anythinghappening with your family.
You just stay quiet.
You suck it up and you givethis image that everything's
great.
And that's just not how itworks.
And so my mom would bemortified knowing that I share
so much, but it's also whatmakes me me.
And I just found that by doingthat, it helped bring so many
(30:52):
people together.
And being in Kelowna,especially hearing what I was
going through, was also what,um, a wine maker, Karnail
Singh's daughter was goingthrough.
The exact thing of just feelingdifferent, feeling ugly,
feeling ugh, not good enough,and realizing that there's so
many more people going throughthe exact same thing.
We have to talk about it.
Paula Mohammed (31:14):
It is interesting what you say about,
and it came up in the docuseriesa few times too, to be a good
Indian girl, like what youshould be like.
And a few people spoke aboutthat and I see it in other
cultures.
I see it in generational thing.
I feel it myself.
And it's, I feel like it'staken me to be 55 to let go of
that.
But there's something that Iread.
(31:35):
I'm gonna get this quote wrong,but along the lines of "don't
strive to be good or to do whatyou should, but just be better,
like better for you." So it'snot about being good or doing
everything the right way, butjust be a better person.
You know, just let's worktowards being that.
And that, I thought that was,that kind of lifts some of that
(31:57):
pressure off.
And also, watching you in theseries and even now, you're so
open, you're so comfortable inwho you are.
Watching your mom in thatseries, I almost felt like it
was a bit of a contradictionfrom the stereotypical
Indo-Fijian mom saying, "youknow, you have to be quieter.
(32:19):
You can't be outspoken."Because your mom seemed to
really celebrate and be so proudof you.
You said that you did feel thatyou were supposed to keep a lid
on it.
Can you just elaborate a littlebit more on that?
Because what I saw from yourmom, and maybe that came later,
I'll let you tell us.
Shiva Reddy (32:34):
Yeah, it was so interesting because with my mom,
she was such a groundbreakingperson.
You know, defied gender roles.
You know, she went into lawenforcement.
That's not what women did.
She always spoke up againstinjustices.
That's not what women weresupposed to do.
And, she just did all of thesethings.
(32:55):
But still, no matter howpowerful she was, she still had
to abide by the cultural rules.
And that made her quiet andjust bear with it.
Just for us to be able to getby.
And it was interesting seeingkind of like that contradiction,
(33:16):
that oxymoron of like, eventhough she was so powerful, she
still had to be muted.
And I feel like she was doingit, because she wanted to make
sure that I would be okay in theworld.
I understand why she was doingit, but for me, she like,
despite the fact that she'dalways tell me, "no, don't be
loud, be good.
(33:36):
You know, present this way.
No, you can't do that.
You are a girl.
No, you have to stay home" andI feel like her dementia has
quite frankly softened her alittle bit.
But I think she just wanted thebest for me, and she was proud
of me whenever I'd speak outagainst something wrong.
She would always be proud of mewhen I stood up for myself.
(33:59):
And she always wanted me to dothat, but she also was just so
scared that something wouldhappen to me.
Um, yeah, and I just, I feellike now, it's so interesting
because I had mentioned earlierwith food, that was how she
would share her love and showher love.
That was her love language.
I never heard her say like, shewouldn't, she wouldn't really
(34:20):
hug me.
She wasn't really affectionatein that way.
I feel like I was always introuble.
She never said, "I love you."And then all of a sudden with
her dementia, and I think, Ihonestly think it's because the
switch of caregiving, because Ibecame her mom, and that's how I
show my love.
And I've always been like that,that I started doing those
things.
(34:40):
And I think she kinda liked it.
And I think she's never hadthat before.
And so now she's so loving andshe's so kind, and, you know,
she's still is just like, "oh,Shiva, come on.
Like, your hair looksridiculous.
Uh, don't, don't be like that.
Or Oh, really?
Your legs don't show those.
That's too much." Like, youknow, she'll still police me,
(35:00):
but it's in the way that like,you know, you kind of get it
from aunties and moms, soyeah...
Paula Mohammed (35:05):
Yeah.
Uh, has your mom watched theseries, the docuseries?
Shiva Reddy (35:09):
She has...
Paula Mohammed (35:11):
What was her reaction?
Shiva Reddy (35:12):
Oh, my god Paula.
She, you know what, she calledme the other day and she was
furious with me and I was tryingto figure out what was going
on.
And she was just like, "howdare you, how dare you have a
premiere?
And this big show and not tellme." And it's like, okay, you
(35:32):
were there.
You were there.
You gotta see it all.
We're not having extra things,we're just talking about it.
But she's, she's, so, you couldjust see how excited she is
that her story is up there.
Just her seeing a picture ofher in the prison services.
Her seeing a picture of timesthat were good.
(35:55):
Times that were hard.
There's something about justbeing seen when you've had to
struggle so much and almostbecome invisible and feel
helpless.
There's something about itwhere it's like, wow, this is
really powerful in that you'reable to just, your story's out
there.
So she loves it.
She absolutely loves it.
Paula Mohammed (36:16):
What a gift that you've given her too.
I know this was something foryou to explore for your
heritage, but for your mom goingthrough dementia, who's losing
a grip on who she was, to haveit celebrated like that and for
her out there and, you know, Ijust, and for her to see how,
after all of the rebelling andwanting to find your own way for
(36:38):
her to see you take on thispassion to really know your
heritage and where she came fromand, and all of that.
I imagine it was a, anunexpected byproduct of, uh,
what a wonderful gift you'vegiven her too.
Shiva Reddy (36:52):
It was sweet.
I find like, and my producerswere really awesome, Paula.
Even if there were just momentswhere we would be having a
sweet moment, or it wasn't evena part of the show and wasn't
intended to be a part of theshow, they would just go ahead
and document it, because forthem, they've experienced
dementia with parents, they'veexperienced that in the world
where they, they just know howimportant it is to capture that
(37:15):
moment and what that loss feelslike and the grief of not having
it.
So they just, they went aboveand beyond just to make sure
that those moments stay with meand stay alive.
Paula Mohammed (37:24):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Have you been to Fiji or toIndia?
Shiva Reddy (37:29):
I haven't.
I would love to go.
I feel like that's like thenext series, like after, after
we, like, after we go acrossCanada, we get the funding.
That'd be great.
After we go across Canada andwe learn more about South Asian
heritage, I feel like thatshould be like season three.
Paula Mohammed (37:46):
Absolutely.
Oh yeah.
I, I'd be watching it for sure.
Okay, so let's jump ahead orback kind of ahead.
I'm also dying to know how youbecame a sommelier?
Shiva Reddy (37:57):
Yes.
Paula Mohammed (37:58):
Yeah.
Tell us about that.
Shiva Reddy (38:00):
Yeah.
And so when like there was thesamosa hustling.
I feel like I just always lovedfood so much and just also the
idea of sewa, like of alwayskind of taking care of others
through food, through like ourway of showing love.
Naturally, like the sewa, Ifound in hospitality.
(38:22):
And I like, I loved doing it.
I love doing it so much.
And then I got to be aroundfood and I got to learn.
But then, growing up in ahousehold with no alcohol, all
of a sudden I started learningabout wine and it was all of the
things that I love.
I love, I love consuming yummythings.
I love trying things.
(38:42):
And then you learn abouthistory.
You learn about pop culture.
You learn about people.
You learn about farming.
You get to learn everything.
And the idea of trying tofigure out what somebody likes
for wine when they don't know,uh, it's very thrilling.
It's very exciting when younail it.
And also like by being yourselfis the way to go.
(39:04):
And so I found that theexposure to wine was just so
exciting.
I had to get more, and so Ijust went down the rabbit hole.
I couldn't afford the likeuniversity schooling because I
was taking care of my mom at thetime.
But what I could do is I couldget scholarships.
So I got scholarships fromassociations like the Les Dames
D'Escoffier, and BC HospitalityFoundation and so they basically
(39:29):
helped pay for my schooling forwine.
And even then I just couldn'tget enough and I found that I
was, because I was so excited, Iwas working my way up the wine
world here in Vancouver inrestaurants, and it just was one
of those things I just keptdoing it because I love doing it
so much and it, it became this,um, as well.
Paula Mohammed (39:52):
Coming up in the wine world in Vancouver as a
young woman and as a woman fromIndo-Fijian Indian descent
heritage, did that have animpact on your experience or
not?
Shiva Reddy (40:05):
Absolutely.
I feel like it was verychallenging because I
simultaneously would be hiredbecause I would check every box
of diversity of like, you'reyoung, you're a woman, you're of
color.
Cool.
Okay.
So then that would always makeme question is that why I'm
here?
(40:25):
Like, is that what's happening?
And then realizing, yeah, thatis exactly why I'm here.
But then knowing that, hey, I'mactually good at my job too.
I'm doing a great job and Iknow that I'm good at this.
So that was huge.
But also moving up in the wineworld, it just feels like there
isn't a spot for me.
You know, I, I see the workthat I've done.
(40:47):
I see that because I had tostruggle and because I didn't
feel welcomed and I said, hey,whatever.
There's space now for theyounger generation, but when I
was coming up in the wine world,everybody was a white guy.
And I just noticed that like,oh, I'm not getting invited to
these tastings.
Oh, I'm not a part of this.
Why not?
What's going on?
And a lot of it was because Iwas being told all the time to
(41:09):
not rock the boat.
I was being told to be quietand just do my job.
And the moment that I would sayhey, that was actually
inappropriate, that's not okay",was the moment that I was told
that I was difficult, um, wasthe moment that I'd get worked
harder and given the worst jobs,but I'd still do it and get
(41:30):
through it.
But, I found that they justwanted me to be there and to
essentially shut up and lookpretty and, and just get it
done.
And I found that when I startedspeaking up, that's when I felt
my power that I could do this.
And then I started seeing thechanges happen.
Now I see that there's spacefor the younger generations.
(41:50):
But I always just felt reallyalone, like you know?
Paula Mohammed (41:53):
What a shame.
I find it hard to believe thatwe still deal with this in 2025,
but...
Shiva Reddy (41:58):
Yeah.
Paula Mohammed (41:59):
I can't imagine you having a lid put on you.
Shiva Reddy (42:01):
Yeah, no, it's not possible.
Don't, it's not gonna work.
Don't do it.
But yeah, I find it a veryinteresting conversation because
we, when we look at thehospitality industry, we kind of
all grew up seeing like theAnthony Bourdain story of ah,
yeah, it's hard.
This is a tough world." AndGordon Ramsey, where they're
(42:23):
kind of glamorizing the being anasshole thing.
And customers come in, theyalways ask like, have you seen
The Bear?
Is it like that?
Is it like that?
And it's like, do you want itto be like that?
Because that's not okay.
Do you want me to be treatedlike that?
Dude, that's not cool.
And so I feel like it's kind ofboth ways where it's like
within the industry thathappens, but then outside of the
(42:43):
industry, people kind of wantthat.
They don't want it.
They don't want it, but they dowant it.
So it's very challenging tokind of change that narrative
and change that system too.
Paula Mohammed (42:53):
Right.
Do you have a philosophy aroundwine?
Like one or two sentences?
Is there something that you goby?
Shiva Reddy (43:00):
Yes, I want my wine to be made by people who are
nice and kind.
And I want my wine to be tasty.
Because that way I know thatthey took care of their land.
They made the wine in arespectful way.
They were respectful to thepeople who were there to help
(43:22):
them.
And I think things taste betterwhen that's the case.
But also I just wanted to beyummy.
I just, that's all I want.
It's simple and just down toearth.
You know, wine shouldn't beinaccessible.
It shouldn't be scary.
It's just grape juice at theend, you know.
Paula Mohammed (43:38):
So true.
A curry, say a meat curry, alittle bit spicy: wine or beer
or neither?
Shiva Reddy (43:46):
You can do anything you want.
The world's your oyster.
I feel like oftentimes, likeespecially with curry and uh,
anything ethnic let's say whenit comes to food, people get
scared and they're like, oh no,you have to do something sweet.
And it's like, no challengeyourself.
Like you could do whatever youwant.
I think you're having a goatcurry.
(44:07):
Yum.
Traditionally you'd be like abig Syrah or a big Shiraz
because it's juicy, jammy andit's like, it doesn't have to
be.
You know what you can do?
You can have like a Cinsaultcoming from South Africa.
It would be tasty.
You can really challenge yourpalette and it's, I don't know,
I think sometimes we like getstuck on these pairings where
it's like textbook.
Like, oh yes, no, it has to belike this.
Paula Mohammed (44:31):
It's the should.
The should syndrome.
Shiva Reddy (44:33):
Yeah, the should syndrome kind of sucks because
like, what if you don't like it?
You know?
If you wanna drink chardonnaywith a steak, have adder because
it's up to you.
You're gonna have a great time.
So screw the rules that way.
Because they're not gonna benecessarily made for you all the
time.
Paula Mohammed (44:49):
Right.
So I often ask guests when theycome to the show to share a
recipe or a dish with us that wecan include in our In My
Kitchen community.
So it goes out to them.
I'm putting you on the spothere, but if you have a dish
that you could share the recipebehind the scenes later, what
would it be and why?
Shiva Reddy (45:09):
Yeah, I think for me it would be the one that I
was the most scared of making.
And that is my mom's dal.
There was something about itthat was just pure magic, Paula.
Like, it was just so flavorful,nutritious, and just like it
would always be a staple in thehouse.
And I've been, I tried for solong to figure out what goes in
(45:33):
it.
So it's still in progress, butI think I nailed it.
But essentially it would belike a Fijian style of dal,
which realized recently becauseI was like, what is missing from
here?
I've made this now 200 times.
I read a million recipes.
I keep asking my mom.
Turns out the Fijian stylewould have a mango pit, like
fresh mango pit.
So like, yeah, it's just likebright, vibrant.
(45:55):
You have lentils as your base.
What you would then do is you'dhave things like curry leaves,
bay leaves, onions, eggplant,tomato, garlic, you know,
everything yummy and deliciousis in there with turmeric as
well.
And then you just let thatsimmer.
And then after it's done, um,there's this thing called chonk,
(46:18):
uh, or chunk, depending on howyou say it.
But essentially, after you'redone cooking all of that, you'd
add in your tamarind.
You'd add in maybe somecilantro, and then from there
you would have ghee.
You'd cook the ghee with likecumin, some other spices,
onions, chili, and then you'dpour that on top and you'd mix
(46:42):
that in.
And that's where you get thisincredible flavor.
And I've learned thatmeasurements are hard, because
it is just like a feeling thing.
Like I feel like I could neveruse a pressure cooker, because
for me it's a feeling of like, Ilook at it, I'm smelling it,
and it's oh, that doesn't lookright.
And so it might say twotablespoons, but sometimes it
(47:07):
might actually be six.
And I didn't get it when my momwould say that of just eh, I
don't know.
It's one tablespoon.
And then I'd see her adding inmore later and it's oh, it's all
feeling.
So, yeah, so you just have tobe present with it, which is
wild.
Paula Mohammed (47:21):
I love that though.
I think that's, that's the wayto do it.
We'll include that recipe inour In My Kitchen community.
So if people are interested,the link for that will be in
there.
And I know I wanna keepfollowing along on your journey
and for listeners who want toalso follow you and watch, Not
Your Butter Chicken, what arethe best ways to do that and
(47:42):
I'll include this in the shownotes as well.
Shiva Reddy (47:44):
Absolutely.
To follow me, it would beInstagram for me.
I, I only can do the one.
I can only do one social media.
Everything else is toooverwhelming.
But yeah, my Instagram handlewill be, it's ready.
So itsreddy91.
Yes, nine one for the year ofmy birth.
Uh, ha ha.
And then also you could watchNot Your Butter Chicken.
(48:07):
It's now streaming on CBC Gem,uh, which is super exciting.
And then also you can find it,if you have Telus as well as
it's a Telus Original Series.
Paula Mohammed (48:18):
Got it.
And congratulations again onyour LEO nomination.
And there was a few for theseries that got nominated.
Shiva Reddy (48:24):
Yeah, we're very lucky.
Yeah, so the LEO Awards.
We're gonna find out in a fewweeks if we get it, we're, we
actually have a couplenominations on there, and then
we were able to be a part ofmany different, um, film
festival circuits as well, whichwas incredible.
Paula Mohammed (48:39):
It's a wonderful docuseries, so I can see why
it's getting the accolades.
Shiva, what is next for ShivaReddy?
Shiva Reddy (48:47):
I really never know.
I kind of just go with it andthen things just happen.
But honestly, I love food.
I love wine.
I love talking about it andlearning.
So my dream is to have morelike Not Your Butter Chicken.
I love the idea of having ashow where I get to just be
curious and explore, like my CBCjob is my dream job.
(49:09):
So if I can make that more ofjust being curious and, and
learning more about food, aboutpeople, sharing that, that's all
I wanna do.
Paula Mohammed (49:18):
Well, you're amazing at it, and I can
completely understand why youwanna do that.
It's a privilege, isn't it?
To get, get to know people andunderstand and, and I've, I feel
very lucky to have been able tosort of pull back that kitchen
door a bit and to Shiva Reddytoday.
It's been just lovely.
You're such a joy to connectwith.
I wish we were in personsharing dal.
Shiva Reddy (49:40):
Yeah.
Come on over to my kitchen,Paula.
Paula Mohammed (49:42):
Thank you so much for being on the show,
Shiva.
Shiva Reddy (49:45):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Paula Mohammed (49:47):
If you've just finished listening to this
podcast episode, go over to CBCGem or on Telus and watch the
Not Your Butter Chickendocuseries with Shiva Reddy.
Really great production andwonderful people that Shiva
meets along the way.
I had so much fun doing thisepisode with Shiva.
Definitely try Shiva's recipe.
(50:10):
You can find it atexploreinmykitchen.com which is
our In My Kitchen community.
If you enjoyed this episode orlearned something new, please
like and review it on ApplePodcasts.
And until next time, happycooking and happy travels.
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