December 31, 2023 • 27 mins
Have you ever felt a profound joy bubbling up from within, in moments of quiet surrender to something greater than yourself? That's the theme that Dr. Merrill Greene and I, Noah, explore in our latest episode. Merrill, with infectious enthusiasm, recounts his journey from a nominal Christian to a man with an insatiable thirst for Christ. Together, we explore a view of how surrender to God's leading can lead to life-changing joy.
This episode isn't just about joy—it's about the surprising ways that joy intertwines with sacrifice, and how this paradox is at the core of Christian faith. Drawing inspiration from biblical figures like Hannah, to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, we reflect on the profound happiness that comes from giving of oneself. Merrill and I ponder the power of intentionality in our worship and obedience, imagining a spiritual journey enriched by the choice to infuse sacrifice with joy and love. This conversation is full of insight into finding the extraordinary in our ordinary lives, and how embracing our God-given identity can lead us to the deepest wellsprings of joy.
But this isn't even where things got good! Tune in for part 2 next time on the In Rest Podcast.
Check out Merrill's work at weirdgod.com. Check out his latest book, The Weirdness of God, and follow his socials to stay up to date on his next book, Drunk in the Spirit.
https://www.weirdgod.com/
https://www.instagram.com/weirdgodministries/
Also, HAPPY NEW YEAR! I trust you had a great Christmas, and i am trusting God has even greater things around the corner for you. Thank you for being a listener of the In Rest Podcast. You helped 2023 be a special year for me--I appreciate it! God bless you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Noah (00:09):
Welcome to the In Rest podcast with Noah James Wiebe.
I'm your host, Noah, and todaywe are talking about joy.
We're talking about joy as, yes, a theme in scripture, yes, as
theology in our society, butalso joy as something that can
be received in our union withJesus.
I have here with me MerrillGreen.
(00:32):
Dr Merrill Greene.
I'm really thankful to have himto be an interviewee today.
Welcome, Merrill.
Thank you very much, glad to behere.
Merrill (00:40):
So glad to have you.
I didn't know that was yourmiddle name.
Noah (00:42):
James?
Yeah, I had no idea.
Do I look like a James MiddleName guy?
Merrill (00:46):
I don't know, I'd have to pray about it.
Okay, pray about that.
Noah (00:49):
I like that.
Yeah, tell me about you.
Tell us about your background,how you've started following
Jesus, how long you followedJesus, where you went to school,
all those things.
Merrill (01:00):
Okay, well, I grew up in the church.
My parents were nice Baptists.
They brought me to church every.
Sunday this is my born and whenI was a teenager I made a under
pressure profession of faith.
I would say, okay, that wasdefinitely not genuine, but I
still was always interested intheology and the Bible and I
went to church in youth groupand all that stuff.
(01:21):
I was very much interested inGod, but I didn't have a
meaningful relationship with him.
After high school I ended upgoing to a pretty conservative
Bible school.
While I was there, I was one ofthose places where you couldn't
ask a lot of questions.
It was.
It was.
I felt like I was being stifledto a certain point.
I was like there must be moreto God than all of this.
(01:44):
And after I ended up leavingthere, I ended up going to
Crandall University and throughsome of my friends, I got
connected with a pastor whoended up leading to meet the
Lord when I was 21 and beenfollowing Faithful Labor since.
Noah (01:58):
So wow, that's so cool.
Merrill (02:00):
Yeah.
Noah (02:01):
So you have the title doctor, that being heading of
your name.
Merrill (02:03):
Oh yeah.
Noah (02:04):
I just want that really cool.
Not necessarily because itmakes you better than other
people, although that is someways that people understand that
.
Tell me about the journey toget from getting your bachelor's
degree at Crandall Universityin Munchen, new Brunswick, to
having a PhD.
Merrill (02:21):
Yeah, well, the funny thing is is that I really don't
like academia and I had a verydifficult time thinking that
this was going to be the paththat I would take.
So when I was finishing myundergraduate degree, I thought
I was going to go into ministry.
The Lord has spoken to mesaying that I was going to work
with First Nations people andwork with the poor, with the
Salvation Army.
(02:41):
So I was like, yeah for sure,this is, this is what I'm doing.
And while I was praying, theLord just spoke to me and said I
want you to do a master'sdegree.
So I applied to the school thathe told me to apply to, and I
got accepted and I went and Ispent two years doing that and
then afterwards I was certain Iwas like the Lord is definitely
calling me to ministry.
And so these guys from my churchinvited me to a men's retreat
(03:07):
in Quebec in the middle of thewoods, and so I had applied
before that to have a jobworking as a youth pastor at a
Salvation Army church, and theinterview went really well and I
was planning on you know thatwas going to be where I was
going in the future and while Iwas in Quebec after the
interview.
They were trying to get incontact with me, but there was
no cell phone reception and so Icouldn't get the call.
(03:30):
And while I was there, theLord's like I want you to do a
PhD, wow.
And I was just like, oh, Ireally rather not.
So when I got back to Ontariothey finally got a hold of me
and they're like do you wantthis job?
Like we thought you'd be goodfor it, and I was like, no, I'm
going back to school.
So then I went through all ofthat and I just finally finished
(03:50):
my PhD in the spring of thisyear.
Noah (03:53):
Wow, that is exciting.
So good to have that burden offyour shoulder.
Oh yeah, yeah, okay, that'sreally cool.
Tell me about something thathas given you deep joy.
Merrill (04:11):
I think that the thing that's given me the greatest joy
after I got saved.
I mean before I used to havethis idea that God was very
distant and then, when I endedup becoming a Christian, when I
was 21, I was very involved in amore charismatic stream of
Christianity and I saw thespirit moving, and in such tiny
(04:35):
ways, in amazing, huge ways too.
But it was amazing to me, notalways the big spectacular
things, but the little thingsthat we care about.
That it just made me think likehe knows us so deeply and he
knows us so intimately, thethings that get on our nerves or
(04:56):
the things that get on our thatwould frustrate us or the
things that would give us panicor anxiety, and he's just in the
background a lot of the timejust working those things out.
And I think of a reallyinteresting example when I was I
was supposed to be travelinghome for Christmas.
I told this story in a churchone time and they were like why
(05:17):
in the world?
But it's a funny story.
I was going to get a cab to goto the airport to fly home, and
the night before this washappening the Lord spoke to me
in the middle of the night, likea midnight, and was like I need
you to make banana bread.
And I'm just like why?
Why do I need to make bananabread?
(05:37):
He's like you just need to andyou need to bring it to your
friend Michael.
And I'm like Michael, it wasone of my friends from my PhD
program.
We weren't that close oranything at the time, but I was
just like, ok, lord, I goteverything out, I made the
banana bread, I went to bed, Igot up early, I went to class
and I gave him the banana breadand we got to talking.
He's like well, what are youdoing for the holidays?
I was like, oh, I'm going hometoday and la, la, la, la da.
(05:59):
And he's like, oh, well, I'lldrive you to the airport.
And I was like, ok, that'sgreat, I was just going to take
a cab.
So we got to the airport and Igo into the Tim Hortons and the
airport to buy a coffee and Itap my debit and it's declined.
I was like what is going on?
So I look at my bank accountand I don't know how this is
possible.
I had like negative $2,000 inmy account.
So and then I got to thinking Iwas like, man, I couldn't have
(06:24):
paid the $50 for the cab fare toget here and God could have
told me why I was making bananabread, but he's too good for
that.
He likes to spend the disbeliefto a certain extent and make us
think, like he likes to ask usto do things that are not
naturally logical.
And that gave me great joybecause I was like I'm a very
(06:48):
curious person and I like thatthere is an endless creativity
and an endless investigationinto what God's like.
Yeah, so I think that curiositythat God has given me gives me
joy.
Noah (07:03):
Ok, I love that.
That is so cool.
Yeah, I found that in differentdevotional readings I've done.
If anyone listens to the book,if you're a listener of this
podcast, I quote Oswald Chambersevery day of my life.
Anyway, Oswald Chambers, myalmost first highest.
He talked about how the longerthat you are a disciple of Jesus
and the more you grow inmaturity, the more that it will
(07:25):
be true that the only reason youcan provide for the seemingly
odd behavior that you act out isobedience.
And he also says in otherplaces joy is the fruit of
obedience.
I think it's also cool to liveout our wiring and the things
(07:46):
that God gives us.
In one sense, in our wiring, inour programming, in our
personality of who we are, deepwithin us, there's this way of
when we actually just live thatthat we're okay with being as he
made us to be, living the lifehe intended us to live, Even if
it doesn't necessarily look likesomeone else's life.
It kind of seems odd to achurch in New Brunswick in.
(08:10):
Canada, somewhere that DrMerrill Green or almost Dr
Merrill Green is making bananabread for his classmate Michael
for some odd reason.
But it's okay and good.
In fact, not just permissionbut approval that almost Dr
Merrill Green would do somethinglike that because that's what
(08:33):
God wanted him to do.
And if God calls you to dosomething, listener, that it's
okay, not just that you havepermission, but you have
approval from God to live thatout and to be that and to
receive joy in it.
Tell me about joy from ascriptural perspective, because
I know that when Oswald says joyis the fruit of obedience,
(08:54):
where he's getting that isprobably John 15.
But joy is throughout thescripture.
I mean it's talked about in theHebrew scriptures, in the Old
Testament and the New Testament,talked about in celebrations
and feasting and ritual holidaysand all kinds of different
environments and settings.
But tell me about joy as atheme in scripture.
Merrill (09:15):
Yeah, I often like think of joy in as a parallel to
adventure, in that a lot oftimes when you're on an
adventure, you're in the momentand you're excited about
everything that's happening,even the things you don't
understand or the things thatmight seem burdensome.
When you come back from a longtravel or something, you can
think of the awful things thathappened, but the highlights
(09:36):
always kind of peak up, and Ialways think of the disciples
when they're persecuted.
In the book of Acts it saysthey rejoice because they were
worthy to be persecuted in thename of the Lord.
The opposite of an adventureand the opposite of joy is
anxiety, and that comes from notliving in the moment.
And for an adventure you'resupposed to be living in the
(09:58):
moment.
Present, right, be present.
And I think that you can't beexperiencing joy if you're not
in the present, because you'reeither if you're worrying about
the past or worrying about thefuture.
How can you experience joy?
Because those are things thatGod says not to do Right, and so
, like the whole, I mean, if weread to the Sermon on the Mount
do not be anxious about what youeat or what you wear or all
(10:20):
these different things, right,you're.
How can you be joyful if you'reworrying about, oh, am I going
to look good during thispresentation?
How can you be joyful if you'reworrying like, oh, do I have
enough money to buy food thisweek?
Right, and it's so funnybecause when I work with the
(10:41):
poor and the homeless, they're,they're, they're so joyful all
the time because especially theChristians homeless because
they're always like, yeah, likeGod does provide, right, jesus
says not to worry about thesethings, because when you don't
worry about them, you get toactually experience what God's
doing.
Wow, right.
And then you are more likelylike that builds your faith.
Totally Right, joy and buildingyour faith are like they go hand
(11:03):
in hand?
Noah (11:03):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Do you find that one feeds theother?
Mm?
Hmm?
Merrill (11:09):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, like the thing is likewe go through hardships and you
know we always talk about how,like joy isn't happiness and
happy they're not the same thing, or whatever, Although I will
say that if you are joyful butyou're never happy, there's
probably something wrong.
You know a bunch of joyfulChristians, but they're all like
I don't know, that's always onething that worries me.
(11:31):
I try, I preach that to a lot ofchurches and people look at me
or even they're like we shouldbe happy.
I don't know.
I don't know about that, yeah.
Noah (11:38):
Because there's almost this sense of when you're
apathetic, nothing matters.
Yeah, how could you possibly bepresent to what God is up to
and partner with him in thatwork, right, which then bears
the fruit, like joy is still thebyproduct, yeah, and that sense
of happiness and that sense offulfillment that comes from
living that way.
If that's not present, thenwhat you wonder, and are maybe
(12:01):
even concerned of, is are weactually present to what God is
doing?
Are we partnering with Him?
Are we obedient to what he'ssaying?
Merrill (12:07):
Yeah, well, the thing is, God made us to work.
We're built to do work and tohave rest.
The people who are apatheticdon't have joy, because that's
not how God intended us to behumans.
People find joy from the fruitof their labors.
God provides us the bodies andenergy to do that, but he knows
it's good for us.
Adam and Eve were supposed totend the garden.
(12:28):
It wasn't going to be superburdensome, but they weren't
supposed to just lay around onclouds.
There's a time to rest andenjoy God in leisure, but
there's also a time toexperience what all of God has
made humans to be.
Noah (12:43):
Wow, that is so cool.
I think it's cool that work canbe something that gives us joy
just as much as rest could andcan and should.
The podcast is called the InRest Podcast because there's a
sense of bringing that rest intothe work that you're doing.
Like you said, it's not thatAdam and Eve were doing a super
burdensome slave job.
(13:04):
They were working in union withGod, doing the thing that they
were made to do, and then atnight they would rest, and that
rest and that sense of peace, inright relationship with God,
was brought into the work thatthey were doing.
It brought a sense of delightto the things they were doing,
even if some of it wasn'tglamorous or fabulous.
(13:25):
I mean they're taking.
I don't even know if they hadtools.
I don't know what they did totend to the garden.
But you know what I'm saying,yeah, so tell me about one
example from the Old Testamentthat would give us a little bit
of dimension for understandingjoy as a theme in Scripture.
Merrill (13:40):
Right, I often think of Hannah, you know, because she's
barren, she can't have childrenand she just is crying out to
the Lord.
You know, eli thinks that she'sdrunk, because she's so
overcome by this desire for, andthen pleading with God, and God
gives her a child and she iswilling to give the child away.
(14:06):
Right, because Samuel ends upstaying at the temple.
Noah (14:13):
Or the tabernacle, or whatever.
Merrill (14:16):
And joy.
When you have joy and you'reliving in the present, it's okay
to give up the things that youthought would bring you joy.
Right, she thought that justthe child would bring her joy,
but actually I think the joythat she experienced was that
God listens to his children and,like, fulfills promises.
(14:37):
Right, and after you have.
Right, people love gettinggifts, right, of course, and God
gives us good gifts, right, butthe gift isn't what matters,
right, it's the giver.
And I think Hannah understoodthat.
Right, she was given a gift,but then she was also given the
gift of an experience with God.
And so, you know, in the NewTestament, I mean Mary, when she
(15:00):
sings out through the HolySpirit about the birth of Jesus
and things like that, you know,a lot of it's taken from that
story of Hannah, right, andbeing given a gift like that.
And so I think that sacrificeand joy go hand in hand like all
the time.
Right, because Jesus is willingto sacrifice himself.
He doesn't want to when he's inthe garden, right, but not my
(15:22):
will, but yours be done.
You know he gives himself andit's a great joy.
And like that is unfathomableto the world, it doesn't make
sense but in.
God's economy it does.
Yeah, yeah, so the more yougive up, I think, the more
joyful you can be.
Noah (15:39):
It's almost like the giving on our part.
Like Jesus said, it's moreblessed or happy to give than to
receive Right.
There's more.
There's more joy that comesfrom the offering than from the
receiving, yeah, of somethingcircumstantially.
But then you talked about, likeHebrews, chapter 12, where it
(16:00):
says For the joy set before him.
Jesus endured the cross andthere are the cross, so there's
a sense of for the joy setbefore him, there's a sense of
looking ahead and there's a joythat comes in the hope of
something, and the but theoffering in it does bring with
it a level of joy, even if thecircumstances surrounding that
joy are relatively dark andunjoyful, if that's the word.
(16:24):
I thought it was alsointeresting when you brought up
at the book of Acts and how thedisciples rejoiced when they
were suffering because theythought, wow, god believed in
fit to suffer in his name.
That's crazy.
And so they're rejoicing thatGod thinks so much of them.
Right, there's a sense of Godloves us so much and he's
(16:45):
developed us and matured us tothe point where he knows that we
don't need to have everythingwork out in our favor for us to
praise his name.
That's awesome, and so there'sa deep joy that comes from that
maturity that they had.
But I thought it was alsointeresting where you're talking
about sacrifice, sacrifice andjoy.
There's a, there's a, there's aparallel and a correlation
(17:05):
between the two and maybe evenpossibly a causation, where you
have the giving or the offeringof something or the sacrificing
or the giving up of somethingresulting in joy.
Because in the past thesacrificial system in place for
the Old Testament, in the OldTestament, for worshiping God,
for having right relationshipwith him, was all about offering
(17:26):
.
There is literally continualofferings being done all the
time.
But there's there's a bright,there's a sense of joy and
fulfillment that came into thatbecause they were in right
relationship with God as aresult of obeying that.
But then later we're told, offeryour bodies as living
sacrifices, holy and pleasing toGod, for this is your true and
proper worship.
(17:47):
I don't know about you, butpractically speaking, I find so
much joy when I worship Jesus,when I get on my knees and I say
God, you are God and I am not,and I'm so happy to be here.
You know, because of what Jesushas done and on the basis of
all that, with Jesus as theworship leader, I am led into
the presence of God and there'sjoy in this presence, like
(18:09):
there's that sense ofsacrificing and offering and
sacrificing and offering, butnot in the sense of bowls and
goats and rams and sheep andwhatever.
But now, today, we're told togive an offering of praise or a
sacrifice of praise, but in bothexamples, whether it's in the
Psalms or it's in the NewTestament, when the disciples
(18:33):
are praising God in the midst oftheir suffering, like a
Philippians chapter two, forexample, one of these early
examples of a Christian hymnfrom the early church is written
in the context of Paul being inprison.
But those offerings of worshipand adoration and of sacrifice
and of giving up and of offeringresult in joy.
That is so cool.
Merrill (18:53):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
Thank you for laying that allout.
That's really, really awesome.
Noah (18:56):
Do you have any response to that at all?
Merrill (19:00):
Well, now something else just came to mind.
I remember visiting a pastorfriend of mine and she had a
painting in her house.
She painted it and I think itwas a quote from CS Lewis and it
says Today I will choose joy.
And that frustrated me when Ifirst read it because I was just
like you can't choose joy.
But then when I was reading 1Corinthians 13, and it said you
(19:21):
know, even if I give up my bodyto the flames, you know, if I
give up myself to be martyr, butI don't have love, then it's
nothing.
And I was like you have tochoose why you suffer and you
have to choose why you do acertain thing in order for there
to be the intended effect.
(19:43):
Right, if you do things and yousacrifice, but it's not for a
If you don't internally.
You know, people offeredsacrifices all the time in the,
in the Old Testament, and theprophets were like I don't want
your bulls, I don't want yourgoats, I don't want this, I want
your heart.
Right, because you can do allthe outward things.
(20:06):
You can do what seems good.
You know, sacrificing yourselffor someone else might seem like
the righteous thing to do, butthere might not be any love
behind it, right?
And the same thing is true ofjoy.
You know, people are alwayswondering like well, how come
I'm never happy, how come I'mnever experiencing this joy?
And it's just like, well, whatare your intentions?
What are you trying toexperience?
What are your?
(20:26):
You know, are you trying to dothis for you?
Are you trying to do it for God?
Are you trying to?
You know how?
How me focused is this Wow?
You know, I mean, and so Ithought about that for a long
time and I was that, that quote.
You know, today I choose joyand I was like that is so
necessary.
Yes, right, because some peopledon't want to be happy right,
(20:47):
that's true, that's the thinglike some.
If you think of like churchculture and stuff you know you
all have.
You have sometimes these peoplewho are like always, you know,
bickering and saying like, oh, Iwish the pastor did this
instead of that and all thisstuff, but they'll never leave.
Yeah they never want toactually improve things.
They just want things to be asmiserable for everybody else.
Yeah, or they want everyone tobend to their will Right, so
(21:08):
that they can be happy, right,and that's not where joy comes
from.
Joy doesn't come fromcontrolling other people, right?
Noah (21:15):
Yeah, having this sense that God is in control brings us
a sense of joy in my mind,because you know that that thing
whatever you're trusting Godwith, you were truly are
trusting him with it it's gonnaget taken care of.
It's funny when you said thatabout some people don't want to
be happy.
I think that sometimes we thinkwhy wouldn't you?
I was literally having aconversation about this
(21:36):
yesterday with my supervisor andshe was talking about how, why
would you not?
Why would you choose to live alife of scarcity rather than
abundance?
Why would you do that?
It seems to make no sense atall because it's not really
rational.
Live that way, right.
But I think that when we havepride in our life or a
Relentless self orientation thatsays that life is all about me
(21:57):
and I'm self-sufficient, right,the sense of self-sufficiency
that says I can control not onlymy life but the lives of my
neighbors as well.
That that is so irrational.
Hmm, when you look at it Forall it is, and when I look at
pride in my own life, I'm likewhy am I being so ridiculous?
But when we Shift out of thatmotive of self Orientation, the
(22:24):
motives that are associated withself orientation, I suppose
getting out of thatself-centered approach to
looking at life as a whole, thenwe get into that other scope of
love which, from its very corea gap, a Love in the scripture
as we hear it and see it andunderstand it, is always self
offering.
There's always a sense of love,is a gift.
(22:45):
That love isn't given becausesomeone deserved it.
We see it in 1st Corinthians 13.
Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not post, it does not,you know, all easily angered.
It is not self seeking.
I love the way the nlttranslates that, because it says
, instead of saying it, love isnot self seeking.
It says love does not insist onits own way.
(23:08):
Yeah, isn't that so crazy, butyou notice that when you have
some sort of self seeking beingpart of me, I will Insist that
things be my own way.
I did an episode I'm not sure,guys, if you remember a while
back I did an episode aboutsubmission by submitting to life
(23:30):
as it is, reality as it is,life as it is and God's way of
doing things as they are.
Rather, whether we like it orprefer it or not, that brings
peace to us because there's asense of focus and wholeness
that comes from just letting goand letting God take control.
But on the flip side, beingself-seeking refuses to let
(23:54):
something else take control.
It refuses to come under theinitiative of another thing or
another person.
And even if it seems on theoutside that they are doing that
, they're doing that withsomewhere within that they've
rationalized it in their mindthat they're doing it for their
own good purpose and that, ohwell, I always wanted them to do
that.
I'm not sure if you've ever hadto deal with a narcissist
(24:15):
before listener, but if you do,you'll notice that their
approach to life is absolutelynonsensically self-seeking.
And it looks like it's not, butit is.
But a person who is soself-oriented cannot experience
joy the way that God offers itin living.
(24:39):
The kind of love-oriented,giving-oriented, others-oriented
, God-oriented, God-centered,Christocentric, et cetera, kind
of life.
So yeah, you just really got megoing on that thought pattern,
because when I'm struggling withpride, choosing joy is
(25:02):
extremely difficult, if notimpossible, and God's like, hey,
be happy, aren't you content?
You have the things that you'vebeen praying for for such a
long time.
And I'm like, well, I can'tbecause I have the blah blah.
But there is definitelysomething to be said to when we
choose to receive love and livein love and live out the love of
(25:24):
God in our life, that that willresult in a life of joy, not as
the point but as the byproduct,but adversely, a life lived
with a self-centered, from aself-centered place, insisting
on its own way, beingcontrolling in a negative sense.
Although it looks really happyon the outside, the byproduct is
(25:51):
a life of emptiness andhopelessness and anxiety.
Make sure you tune into parttwo of this interview with Dr
Merrill Green.
We get into some of our bestdiscussion in the second part of
this interview, so please don'tmiss it.
You're going to want to tune into this amazing conversation.
It also gets a lot more fun andwe have a lot of laughs in this
(26:14):
next part of the conversation,so make sure that you tune in to
part two of this podcastinterview with Dr Merrill Green
If you are an In Rest podcastsubscriber.
Thank you, hey.
Leave a rating on Spotify orwherever else you're listening
to this so that the word can getout to other people.
Share this with somebody whoyou think will benefit from it,
(26:36):
and feel free to send us a DM aswell.
@inrest.
insta on Instagram.
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That's awesome.
We'd love to hear from you andconnect with you.
This is on Spotify.
It is also on YouTube, but we'dlove to connect with you.
We'd love to hear how God ismoving in your lives and hear
how to pray for you.
Thank you for being a listener.
(26:57):
Thank you for joining us todayon the In Rest podcast.
Welcome to the In Rest podcast with Noah James Wiebe.
I'm your host, Noah, and todaywe are talking about joy.
We're talking about joy as, yes, a theme in scripture, yes, as
theology in our society, butalso joy as something that can
be received in our union withJesus.
I have here with me MerrillGreen.
(00:32):
Dr Merrill Greene.
I'm really thankful to have himto be an interviewee today.
Welcome, Merrill.
Thank you very much, glad to behere.
Merrill (00:40):
So glad to have you.
I didn't know that was yourmiddle name.
Noah (00:42):
James?
Yeah, I had no idea.
Do I look like a James MiddleName guy?
Merrill (00:46):
I don't know, I'd have to pray about it.
Okay, pray about that.
Noah (00:49):
I like that.
Yeah, tell me about you.
Tell us about your background,how you've started following
Jesus, how long you followedJesus, where you went to school,
all those things.
Merrill (01:00):
Okay, well, I grew up in the church.
My parents were nice Baptists.
They brought me to church every.
Sunday this is my born and whenI was a teenager I made a under
pressure profession of faith.
I would say, okay, that wasdefinitely not genuine, but I
still was always interested intheology and the Bible and I
went to church in youth groupand all that stuff.
(01:21):
I was very much interested inGod, but I didn't have a
meaningful relationship with him.
After high school I ended upgoing to a pretty conservative
Bible school.
While I was there, I was one ofthose places where you couldn't
ask a lot of questions.
It was.
It was.
I felt like I was being stifledto a certain point.
I was like there must be moreto God than all of this.
(01:44):
And after I ended up leavingthere, I ended up going to
Crandall University and throughsome of my friends, I got
connected with a pastor whoended up leading to meet the
Lord when I was 21 and beenfollowing Faithful Labor since.
Noah (01:58):
So wow, that's so cool.
Merrill (02:00):
Yeah.
Noah (02:01):
So you have the title doctor, that being heading of
your name.
Merrill (02:03):
Oh yeah.
Noah (02:04):
I just want that really cool.
Not necessarily because itmakes you better than other
people, although that is someways that people understand that
.
Tell me about the journey toget from getting your bachelor's
degree at Crandall Universityin Munchen, new Brunswick, to
having a PhD.
Merrill (02:21):
Yeah, well, the funny thing is is that I really don't
like academia and I had a verydifficult time thinking that
this was going to be the paththat I would take.
So when I was finishing myundergraduate degree, I thought
I was going to go into ministry.
The Lord has spoken to mesaying that I was going to work
with First Nations people andwork with the poor, with the
Salvation Army.
(02:41):
So I was like, yeah for sure,this is, this is what I'm doing.
And while I was praying, theLord just spoke to me and said I
want you to do a master'sdegree.
So I applied to the school thathe told me to apply to, and I
got accepted and I went and Ispent two years doing that and
then afterwards I was certain Iwas like the Lord is definitely
calling me to ministry.
And so these guys from my churchinvited me to a men's retreat
(03:07):
in Quebec in the middle of thewoods, and so I had applied
before that to have a jobworking as a youth pastor at a
Salvation Army church, and theinterview went really well and I
was planning on you know thatwas going to be where I was
going in the future and while Iwas in Quebec after the
interview.
They were trying to get incontact with me, but there was
no cell phone reception and so Icouldn't get the call.
(03:30):
And while I was there, theLord's like I want you to do a
PhD, wow.
And I was just like, oh, Ireally rather not.
So when I got back to Ontariothey finally got a hold of me
and they're like do you wantthis job?
Like we thought you'd be goodfor it, and I was like, no, I'm
going back to school.
So then I went through all ofthat and I just finally finished
(03:50):
my PhD in the spring of thisyear.
Noah (03:53):
Wow, that is exciting.
So good to have that burden offyour shoulder.
Oh yeah, yeah, okay, that'sreally cool.
Tell me about something thathas given you deep joy.
Merrill (04:11):
I think that the thing that's given me the greatest joy
after I got saved.
I mean before I used to havethis idea that God was very
distant and then, when I endedup becoming a Christian, when I
was 21, I was very involved in amore charismatic stream of
Christianity and I saw thespirit moving, and in such tiny
(04:35):
ways, in amazing, huge ways too.
But it was amazing to me, notalways the big spectacular
things, but the little thingsthat we care about.
That it just made me think likehe knows us so deeply and he
knows us so intimately, thethings that get on our nerves or
(04:56):
the things that get on our thatwould frustrate us or the
things that would give us panicor anxiety, and he's just in the
background a lot of the timejust working those things out.
And I think of a reallyinteresting example when I was I
was supposed to be travelinghome for Christmas.
I told this story in a churchone time and they were like why
(05:17):
in the world?
But it's a funny story.
I was going to get a cab to goto the airport to fly home, and
the night before this washappening the Lord spoke to me
in the middle of the night, likea midnight, and was like I need
you to make banana bread.
And I'm just like why?
Why do I need to make bananabread?
(05:37):
He's like you just need to andyou need to bring it to your
friend Michael.
And I'm like Michael, it wasone of my friends from my PhD
program.
We weren't that close oranything at the time, but I was
just like, ok, lord, I goteverything out, I made the
banana bread, I went to bed, Igot up early, I went to class
and I gave him the banana breadand we got to talking.
He's like well, what are youdoing for the holidays?
I was like, oh, I'm going hometoday and la, la, la, la da.
(05:59):
And he's like, oh, well, I'lldrive you to the airport.
And I was like, ok, that'sgreat, I was just going to take
a cab.
So we got to the airport and Igo into the Tim Hortons and the
airport to buy a coffee and Itap my debit and it's declined.
I was like what is going on?
So I look at my bank accountand I don't know how this is
possible.
I had like negative $2,000 inmy account.
So and then I got to thinking Iwas like, man, I couldn't have
(06:24):
paid the $50 for the cab fare toget here and God could have
told me why I was making bananabread, but he's too good for
that.
He likes to spend the disbeliefto a certain extent and make us
think, like he likes to ask usto do things that are not
naturally logical.
And that gave me great joybecause I was like I'm a very
(06:48):
curious person and I like thatthere is an endless creativity
and an endless investigationinto what God's like.
Yeah, so I think that curiositythat God has given me gives me
joy.
Noah (07:03):
Ok, I love that.
That is so cool.
Yeah, I found that in differentdevotional readings I've done.
If anyone listens to the book,if you're a listener of this
podcast, I quote Oswald Chambersevery day of my life.
Anyway, Oswald Chambers, myalmost first highest.
He talked about how the longerthat you are a disciple of Jesus
and the more you grow inmaturity, the more that it will
(07:25):
be true that the only reason youcan provide for the seemingly
odd behavior that you act out isobedience.
And he also says in otherplaces joy is the fruit of
obedience.
I think it's also cool to liveout our wiring and the things
(07:46):
that God gives us.
In one sense, in our wiring, inour programming, in our
personality of who we are, deepwithin us, there's this way of
when we actually just live thatthat we're okay with being as he
made us to be, living the lifehe intended us to live, Even if
it doesn't necessarily look likesomeone else's life.
It kind of seems odd to achurch in New Brunswick in.
(08:10):
Canada, somewhere that DrMerrill Green or almost Dr
Merrill Green is making bananabread for his classmate Michael
for some odd reason.
But it's okay and good.
In fact, not just permissionbut approval that almost Dr
Merrill Green would do somethinglike that because that's what
(08:33):
God wanted him to do.
And if God calls you to dosomething, listener, that it's
okay, not just that you havepermission, but you have
approval from God to live thatout and to be that and to
receive joy in it.
Tell me about joy from ascriptural perspective, because
I know that when Oswald says joyis the fruit of obedience,
(08:54):
where he's getting that isprobably John 15.
But joy is throughout thescripture.
I mean it's talked about in theHebrew scriptures, in the Old
Testament and the New Testament,talked about in celebrations
and feasting and ritual holidaysand all kinds of different
environments and settings.
But tell me about joy as atheme in scripture.
Merrill (09:15):
Yeah, I often like think of joy in as a parallel to
adventure, in that a lot oftimes when you're on an
adventure, you're in the momentand you're excited about
everything that's happening,even the things you don't
understand or the things thatmight seem burdensome.
When you come back from a longtravel or something, you can
think of the awful things thathappened, but the highlights
(09:36):
always kind of peak up, and Ialways think of the disciples
when they're persecuted.
In the book of Acts it saysthey rejoice because they were
worthy to be persecuted in thename of the Lord.
The opposite of an adventureand the opposite of joy is
anxiety, and that comes from notliving in the moment.
And for an adventure you'resupposed to be living in the
(09:58):
moment.
Present, right, be present.
And I think that you can't beexperiencing joy if you're not
in the present, because you'reeither if you're worrying about
the past or worrying about thefuture.
How can you experience joy?
Because those are things thatGod says not to do Right, and so
, like the whole, I mean, if weread to the Sermon on the Mount
do not be anxious about what youeat or what you wear or all
(10:20):
these different things, right,you're.
How can you be joyful if you'reworrying about, oh, am I going
to look good during thispresentation?
How can you be joyful if you'reworrying like, oh, do I have
enough money to buy food thisweek?
Right, and it's so funnybecause when I work with the
(10:41):
poor and the homeless, they're,they're, they're so joyful all
the time because especially theChristians homeless because
they're always like, yeah, likeGod does provide, right, jesus
says not to worry about thesethings, because when you don't
worry about them, you get toactually experience what God's
doing.
Wow, right.
And then you are more likelylike that builds your faith.
Totally Right, joy and buildingyour faith are like they go hand
(11:03):
in hand?
Noah (11:03):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Do you find that one feeds theother?
Mm?
Hmm?
Merrill (11:09):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, like the thing is likewe go through hardships and you
know we always talk about how,like joy isn't happiness and
happy they're not the same thing, or whatever, Although I will
say that if you are joyful butyou're never happy, there's
probably something wrong.
You know a bunch of joyfulChristians, but they're all like
I don't know, that's always onething that worries me.
(11:31):
I try, I preach that to a lot ofchurches and people look at me
or even they're like we shouldbe happy.
I don't know.
I don't know about that, yeah.
Noah (11:38):
Because there's almost this sense of when you're
apathetic, nothing matters.
Yeah, how could you possibly bepresent to what God is up to
and partner with him in thatwork, right, which then bears
the fruit, like joy is still thebyproduct, yeah, and that sense
of happiness and that sense offulfillment that comes from
living that way.
If that's not present, thenwhat you wonder, and are maybe
(12:01):
even concerned of, is are weactually present to what God is
doing?
Are we partnering with Him?
Are we obedient to what he'ssaying?
Merrill (12:07):
Yeah, well, the thing is, God made us to work.
We're built to do work and tohave rest.
The people who are apatheticdon't have joy, because that's
not how God intended us to behumans.
People find joy from the fruitof their labors.
God provides us the bodies andenergy to do that, but he knows
it's good for us.
Adam and Eve were supposed totend the garden.
(12:28):
It wasn't going to be superburdensome, but they weren't
supposed to just lay around onclouds.
There's a time to rest andenjoy God in leisure, but
there's also a time toexperience what all of God has
made humans to be.
Noah (12:43):
Wow, that is so cool.
I think it's cool that work canbe something that gives us joy
just as much as rest could andcan and should.
The podcast is called the InRest Podcast because there's a
sense of bringing that rest intothe work that you're doing.
Like you said, it's not thatAdam and Eve were doing a super
burdensome slave job.
(13:04):
They were working in union withGod, doing the thing that they
were made to do, and then atnight they would rest, and that
rest and that sense of peace, inright relationship with God,
was brought into the work thatthey were doing.
It brought a sense of delightto the things they were doing,
even if some of it wasn'tglamorous or fabulous.
(13:25):
I mean they're taking.
I don't even know if they hadtools.
I don't know what they did totend to the garden.
But you know what I'm saying,yeah, so tell me about one
example from the Old Testamentthat would give us a little bit
of dimension for understandingjoy as a theme in Scripture.
Merrill (13:40):
Right, I often think of Hannah, you know, because she's
barren, she can't have childrenand she just is crying out to
the Lord.
You know, eli thinks that she'sdrunk, because she's so
overcome by this desire for, andthen pleading with God, and God
gives her a child and she iswilling to give the child away.
(14:06):
Right, because Samuel ends upstaying at the temple.
Noah (14:13):
Or the tabernacle, or whatever.
Merrill (14:16):
And joy.
When you have joy and you'reliving in the present, it's okay
to give up the things that youthought would bring you joy.
Right, she thought that justthe child would bring her joy,
but actually I think the joythat she experienced was that
God listens to his children and,like, fulfills promises.
(14:37):
Right, and after you have.
Right, people love gettinggifts, right, of course, and God
gives us good gifts, right, butthe gift isn't what matters,
right, it's the giver.
And I think Hannah understoodthat.
Right, she was given a gift,but then she was also given the
gift of an experience with God.
And so, you know, in the NewTestament, I mean Mary, when she
(15:00):
sings out through the HolySpirit about the birth of Jesus
and things like that, you know,a lot of it's taken from that
story of Hannah, right, andbeing given a gift like that.
And so I think that sacrificeand joy go hand in hand like all
the time.
Right, because Jesus is willingto sacrifice himself.
He doesn't want to when he's inthe garden, right, but not my
(15:22):
will, but yours be done.
You know he gives himself andit's a great joy.
And like that is unfathomableto the world, it doesn't make
sense but in.
God's economy it does.
Yeah, yeah, so the more yougive up, I think, the more
joyful you can be.
Noah (15:39):
It's almost like the giving on our part.
Like Jesus said, it's moreblessed or happy to give than to
receive Right.
There's more.
There's more joy that comesfrom the offering than from the
receiving, yeah, of somethingcircumstantially.
But then you talked about, likeHebrews, chapter 12, where it
(16:00):
says For the joy set before him.
Jesus endured the cross andthere are the cross, so there's
a sense of for the joy setbefore him, there's a sense of
looking ahead and there's a joythat comes in the hope of
something, and the but theoffering in it does bring with
it a level of joy, even if thecircumstances surrounding that
joy are relatively dark andunjoyful, if that's the word.
(16:24):
I thought it was alsointeresting when you brought up
at the book of Acts and how thedisciples rejoiced when they
were suffering because theythought, wow, god believed in
fit to suffer in his name.
That's crazy.
And so they're rejoicing thatGod thinks so much of them.
Right, there's a sense of Godloves us so much and he's
(16:45):
developed us and matured us tothe point where he knows that we
don't need to have everythingwork out in our favor for us to
praise his name.
That's awesome, and so there'sa deep joy that comes from that
maturity that they had.
But I thought it was alsointeresting where you're talking
about sacrifice, sacrifice andjoy.
There's a, there's a, there's aparallel and a correlation
(17:05):
between the two and maybe evenpossibly a causation, where you
have the giving or the offeringof something or the sacrificing
or the giving up of somethingresulting in joy.
Because in the past thesacrificial system in place for
the Old Testament, in the OldTestament, for worshiping God,
for having right relationshipwith him, was all about offering
(17:26):
.
There is literally continualofferings being done all the
time.
But there's there's a bright,there's a sense of joy and
fulfillment that came into thatbecause they were in right
relationship with God as aresult of obeying that.
But then later we're told, offeryour bodies as living
sacrifices, holy and pleasing toGod, for this is your true and
proper worship.
(17:47):
I don't know about you, butpractically speaking, I find so
much joy when I worship Jesus,when I get on my knees and I say
God, you are God and I am not,and I'm so happy to be here.
You know, because of what Jesushas done and on the basis of
all that, with Jesus as theworship leader, I am led into
the presence of God and there'sjoy in this presence, like
(18:09):
there's that sense ofsacrificing and offering and
sacrificing and offering, butnot in the sense of bowls and
goats and rams and sheep andwhatever.
But now, today, we're told togive an offering of praise or a
sacrifice of praise, but in bothexamples, whether it's in the
Psalms or it's in the NewTestament, when the disciples
(18:33):
are praising God in the midst oftheir suffering, like a
Philippians chapter two, forexample, one of these early
examples of a Christian hymnfrom the early church is written
in the context of Paul being inprison.
But those offerings of worshipand adoration and of sacrifice
and of giving up and of offeringresult in joy.
That is so cool.
Merrill (18:53):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
Thank you for laying that allout.
That's really, really awesome.
Noah (18:56):
Do you have any response to that at all?
Merrill (19:00):
Well, now something else just came to mind.
I remember visiting a pastorfriend of mine and she had a
painting in her house.
She painted it and I think itwas a quote from CS Lewis and it
says Today I will choose joy.
And that frustrated me when Ifirst read it because I was just
like you can't choose joy.
But then when I was reading 1Corinthians 13, and it said you
(19:21):
know, even if I give up my bodyto the flames, you know, if I
give up myself to be martyr, butI don't have love, then it's
nothing.
And I was like you have tochoose why you suffer and you
have to choose why you do acertain thing in order for there
to be the intended effect.
(19:43):
Right, if you do things and yousacrifice, but it's not for a
If you don't internally.
You know, people offeredsacrifices all the time in the,
in the Old Testament, and theprophets were like I don't want
your bulls, I don't want yourgoats, I don't want this, I want
your heart.
Right, because you can do allthe outward things.
(20:06):
You can do what seems good.
You know, sacrificing yourselffor someone else might seem like
the righteous thing to do, butthere might not be any love
behind it, right?
And the same thing is true ofjoy.
You know, people are alwayswondering like well, how come
I'm never happy, how come I'mnever experiencing this joy?
And it's just like, well, whatare your intentions?
What are you trying toexperience?
What are your?
(20:26):
You know, are you trying to dothis for you?
Are you trying to do it for God?
Are you trying to?
You know how?
How me focused is this Wow?
You know, I mean, and so Ithought about that for a long
time and I was that, that quote.
You know, today I choose joyand I was like that is so
necessary.
Yes, right, because some peopledon't want to be happy right,
(20:47):
that's true, that's the thinglike some.
If you think of like churchculture and stuff you know you
all have.
You have sometimes these peoplewho are like always, you know,
bickering and saying like, oh, Iwish the pastor did this
instead of that and all thisstuff, but they'll never leave.
Yeah they never want toactually improve things.
They just want things to be asmiserable for everybody else.
Yeah, or they want everyone tobend to their will Right, so
(21:08):
that they can be happy, right,and that's not where joy comes
from.
Joy doesn't come fromcontrolling other people, right?
Noah (21:15):
Yeah, having this sense that God is in control brings us
a sense of joy in my mind,because you know that that thing
whatever you're trusting Godwith, you were truly are
trusting him with it it's gonnaget taken care of.
It's funny when you said thatabout some people don't want to
be happy.
I think that sometimes we thinkwhy wouldn't you?
I was literally having aconversation about this
(21:36):
yesterday with my supervisor andshe was talking about how, why
would you not?
Why would you choose to live alife of scarcity rather than
abundance?
Why would you do that?
It seems to make no sense atall because it's not really
rational.
Live that way, right.
But I think that when we havepride in our life or a
Relentless self orientation thatsays that life is all about me
(21:57):
and I'm self-sufficient, right,the sense of self-sufficiency
that says I can control not onlymy life but the lives of my
neighbors as well.
That that is so irrational.
Hmm, when you look at it Forall it is, and when I look at
pride in my own life, I'm likewhy am I being so ridiculous?
But when we Shift out of thatmotive of self Orientation, the
(22:24):
motives that are associated withself orientation, I suppose
getting out of thatself-centered approach to
looking at life as a whole, thenwe get into that other scope of
love which, from its very corea gap, a Love in the scripture
as we hear it and see it andunderstand it, is always self
offering.
There's always a sense of love,is a gift.
(22:45):
That love isn't given becausesomeone deserved it.
We see it in 1st Corinthians 13.
Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not post, it does not,you know, all easily angered.
It is not self seeking.
I love the way the nlttranslates that, because it says
, instead of saying it, love isnot self seeking.
It says love does not insist onits own way.
(23:08):
Yeah, isn't that so crazy, butyou notice that when you have
some sort of self seeking beingpart of me, I will Insist that
things be my own way.
I did an episode I'm not sure,guys, if you remember a while
back I did an episode aboutsubmission by submitting to life
(23:30):
as it is, reality as it is,life as it is and God's way of
doing things as they are.
Rather, whether we like it orprefer it or not, that brings
peace to us because there's asense of focus and wholeness
that comes from just letting goand letting God take control.
But on the flip side, beingself-seeking refuses to let
(23:54):
something else take control.
It refuses to come under theinitiative of another thing or
another person.
And even if it seems on theoutside that they are doing that
, they're doing that withsomewhere within that they've
rationalized it in their mindthat they're doing it for their
own good purpose and that, ohwell, I always wanted them to do
that.
I'm not sure if you've ever hadto deal with a narcissist
(24:15):
before listener, but if you do,you'll notice that their
approach to life is absolutelynonsensically self-seeking.
And it looks like it's not, butit is.
But a person who is soself-oriented cannot experience
joy the way that God offers itin living.
(24:39):
The kind of love-oriented,giving-oriented, others-oriented
, God-oriented, God-centered,Christocentric, et cetera, kind
of life.
So yeah, you just really got megoing on that thought pattern,
because when I'm struggling withpride, choosing joy is
(25:02):
extremely difficult, if notimpossible, and God's like, hey,
be happy, aren't you content?
You have the things that you'vebeen praying for for such a
long time.
And I'm like, well, I can'tbecause I have the blah blah.
But there is definitelysomething to be said to when we
choose to receive love and livein love and live out the love of
(25:24):
God in our life, that that willresult in a life of joy, not as
the point but as the byproduct,but adversely, a life lived
with a self-centered, from aself-centered place, insisting
on its own way, beingcontrolling in a negative sense.
Although it looks really happyon the outside, the byproduct is
(25:51):
a life of emptiness andhopelessness and anxiety.
Make sure you tune into parttwo of this interview with Dr
Merrill Green.
We get into some of our bestdiscussion in the second part of
this interview, so please don'tmiss it.
You're going to want to tune into this amazing conversation.
It also gets a lot more fun andwe have a lot of laughs in this
(26:14):
next part of the conversation,so make sure that you tune in to
part two of this podcastinterview with Dr Merrill Green
If you are an In Rest podcastsubscriber.
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(26:36):
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(26:57):
Thank you for joining us todayon the In Rest podcast.
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