Anna Leigh Waters: Mental Toughness, Financial Wisdom, and the Future of Pickleball | E145 - In Search Of Excellence

Episode Transcript
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Anna Leigh Waters (00:00):
Are you so much better than everybody else?

(00:01):
Many people have asked me if I'dplay pickleball in another life.
So that might be the answer thequestion. But I've been playing
for a while. I've been playingsince I was younger. Like I
said, a lot of the people I'mplaying against played college
tennis. Also. My mom was numberone in the world before I was so
it might be in my genes. Alittle bit might be a genetic
thing. Most people say whatmakes me really good at
Pickleball is my IQ. That wasalso what made me really good in

(00:22):
soccer, was my IQ. I was justvery smart. I was a good passer,
very good sister. My best thingwasn't my speed or how hard I
could shoot the ball. It wasalways just, you know, I was
very smart. And I think on thepickleball court, it's kind of
the same thing. Just my decisionmaking is my best thing.

Randall Kaplan (00:42):
You're listening to part two of my incredible
interview with Anna Lee waters,the number one pickleball player
in the world who became numberone in singles, doubles and
mixed doubles at 14 years old.
She's the go to pickleball. Ifyou haven't yet listened to part
one of my awesome interview,please check that one out first.
Now without further ado, here'spart two of my incredible
interview with Anna Lee. Are menplayers inherently better than

(01:04):
female players?

It depends who you ask, most male players
are better than female players,but there are a couple female
players who might be better thansome of the male players. But
it's this big. It was this bigthing this year because we had
the MLP draft, and there wasthis thing like, Should you
draft? Is it more important todraft a really good female, or
is it really important to drafta really good

male? Like, and you were number one pick in the
overall draft. That was twoyears

ago. Number one pick this year. Ben beat me.
Unfortunately, she's number onepick. Wait a

minute, so you need so it's not a permanent
team. You it is

now it wasn't then, when I was pick number
one, every year they did a draftand you were on the New Jersey,
I was on the New Jersey fives.
Then they redrafted this year Iwas the number two pick still on
the New Jersey fives, justbecause they wanted me, and they
got lucky with their draftposition. It's a lottery like
the NBA. It was this year forthe first time this year, it was

(02:00):
they. They were given a certainamount of dollars they could
spend on the entire draft. Okay,so let's just use a million
dollars as an example. If theyspent 900,000 on their first
pick, they only had 100,000 tospend on their next three or if
they spent $50,000 in theirfirst pick. You know, they had

(02:21):
$950,000 spending the next threepeople. So that was also kind of
a strategy. Is like, How much isit worth to spend up, up, up, to
get Ben or whoever, versus ifyou just get, like, four players
who around the same price typething? But the New Jersey fives
got the second pick, and theychose me, and then with the rest
of our money, we were able topick the other three players,

(02:43):
okay?

So to be perfectly clear what what you're
saying is, let's say the teamseach get a million dollars to
spend on players. They're payingyou, not

me. They're paying the league, they're
paying the league, they'repaying the league. All the money
that was spent was paid towardsthe

league, okay?
And then what do the teams payyou? So the

teams don't individually pay me. I have a
contract with the PPA tour,which pays me. And in my
contract with the tour, I haveto play these MLP events. I have
to play play X amount of MLP

events. Do you get paid more the number one
player than the number 10player? Yeah.

So the contracts. So back a year ago,
when MLP was trying to take overPPA, and they tried to get all
these players to come from PPAand go to MLP, all these
contracts started going upbefore then we had no contracts.
We'd just play the tournamentswe wanted to. But then when the
split happened, both sides werekind of freaking out and just
kind of throwing all this moneyat people and like, sign this

(03:40):
contract for three years, we'llpay X amount of money, etc, etc.
So they that's when all thecontracts kind of happened. And
in the contracts it would say,like, you had to play X amount
of days. Or in another person'scontract, it would say you had
to play this many PPA events,but then you had to play this

(04:01):
many team events. So all thecontracts are kind of different.
They're not really the samebecause of that. So it's just
this crazy thing where someplayers may have gotten more
money than somebody who's betterthan them because they signed at
the right time. Like it was justthis crazy thing, like some
players who aren't even in thetop 20 are getting more money
than somebody in the top 20,

which is nuts being paid from the PPA or

and MLP, because MLP still has some of
their contracts as well, but nowthe MLP is merged with the PPA,
so they are owned by the sameentity. Okay, so here's PPA, MLP
owned by the same people.
Interesting. Okay, this merger,though, did make it in the
future and now easier for peopleto understand, because they're
kind of two different things.

(04:48):
Now one's not trying to takeover the other one. So next
year, we're going to have aseason of MLP, and then we're
going to have PPA tour events.
So it's going to make a lot moresense next year than it. Has the
past couple years. Yeah,

my friend Herb Simon bought the Indiana Pacers
for $6 million I don't know, 40or 50 years ago, and the team
now is worth three and a halfbillion dollars. Good
investment, good investment.
Mark Cuban bought the DallasMavericks for $400 million I
think he just sold it for five,little over $5 billion
professional pickleball teams, Ithink they were going for

(05:22):
$100,000 or something like that.
When they, when they got going,we were

offered to buy one of the teams, I think,
for 200,000 and we were like, Idon't know, and now the teams
are selling for like, $11million or something like that.
We're

like, two years, two years later,

yeah, should have probably paid the 200,000
for that. But crazy gotta do yougotta make decisions based on
what you know at the moment. Andwe do think

these $11 million purchase prices are good
investment long term, given thegrowth and trajectory,

I think it just depends on how much are you
banking on pickleball, like, ifyou think Pickleball is gonna
explode and become like tennisor basketball, or Yeah, so I
guess you're going back if it'sgonna be as big as basketball
or, yeah, as big as basketballor football, it's a great
investment, because, like yousaid, these teams are now worth
billions of dollars versus 11million. But if you're like, I

(06:09):
don't really want to, you know,gamble like, it's definitely a
gamble, because pickleball rightnow is going up, and I think
it's going to continue to go up,personally. But if you don't
think so, then it's not a goodinvestment. Like

all professional sports franchises, the value of
the teams go up proportionallywith the value of the TV
contracts. And we're still inthis infancy today, exactly
where it's we'll see whathappens. I think, I think the

next couple of years is probably going to
determine kind of what happenswith the sport. Like you said,
if these TV companies arewilling to pay for pickleball to
be on TV, then I think you'llsee it exponentially grow. But
if in the next couple years, thepeople are like, Oh, well,
people don't like watching it onTV, then it might not go up. It
might say the same might godown. Nobody really knows. But

(06:54):
personally, I feel like nowpeople like watching it on TV
more than they used to, becausea lot more people are playing
the sport. It's kind of likegolf. Like, when I watch golf, I
respect it because I've playedgolf. My dad played golf in
college. Like, I know how toughthat shot that guy just hit was,
you know, but if you have neverplayed golf in your life, you're
like, the easiest sport, like,it's so boring, boring to watch.

(07:15):
But people love watching golfbecause they know how hard it
is. So I think the same thing iskind of going to happen in
pickleball, whereas the morepeople play it and understand
how hard the shots are we'reactually hitting on TV, the more
they'll respect it and want towatch it on TV.

When you play a pro match, it's not like you're
playing in a stadium, Arthur ashstadium, nothing like that for
pickleball. They're basicallygrandstands that are brought in,
and it reminds me of a highschool gym. Okay, right? I mean,
so are there 500 to 2000 peoplewatching live, and do they all
sell out? And are peoplescalping tickets at this point

(07:48):
for the best matches? They

definitely all sell out, especially towards
the weekend, like Wednesday andThursday, isn't like a sold out
day, but Friday, Saturday andSunday is all sold out,
depending on the tournament.
Like the majors, some of themajors had like, 2000 seats,
2500 maybe at Nationals, the onewe just had, or worlds, I guess,
the one we just had a coupleweeks ago, that was like 2500
and it was completely sold out.

(08:11):
Some other tournaments, maybe itcan only see, like, if you're
going to a 500 pointstournament, maybe it can only
seat closer to 1000 maybe alittle less, but that's always
sold out, and there's peoplestanding. So I think we're
definitely outgrowing what wehave now, but we're not to the
point where, like you said, wewant, like, this huge Arthur
Ashe stadium, especially becausethe pickleball court is smaller

(08:34):
than a tennis court. So there'sa certain point where it might
look super small if you're onlike, Arthur Ashe. You know
what? I mean? Like, people needto be close to the court. And

just give people a size on a pickleball court, or
it's 20 feet by 44 feet. Yeah,it's a fourth of a tennis court.
But you need at least 10 to 12feet, when we were building our
court, behind what we call thebaseline, you know, behind the
baseline, because, if not, youjust don't have

it's kind of dangerous, to be honest, because
you're running from off thecourt into a fence or something,
because there's ATPs, which isaround the post, which you're
moving to the side, there's hugeserves. Now, you need room. If
somebody lobs you, you needroom. So I think, honestly, when
people are building courts,they're doing a better job now,
but when they were firststarting building courts, they
were making them super tight andnot giving people room. And that

(09:19):
also might have been creatingsome injuries because of that. I
mean,

I think people are limited by the amount of
space they have in their home aswell. Yeah, you know, and you
mentioned the room. So I am aweekend warrior, and I've
pounded myself into crustyfences. I have a huge scar here
on my arm, and I have one herebecause I went you're dedicated
running, like an idiot into intofences, yeah,

but it was just at your house, so you were
running?

No. I mean, we have very fortunate. We have
plenty of room at the house. Itwas Santa Monica pickleball
center. You know, I just raninto the fence. And then we
have, did you on the point? No,I lost both points. So it wasn't
where the running into thesecond one was in Coeur d'Alene
place called, oh yeah, Gazaranch. And it's a, it's

(10:09):
basically a square metal frontof, you know, the little
squares. And it's, it's, I don'tknow, four feet high, so, you
know, the ball won't go flyingonto them.

It's nice, but at the same time, it's kind
of dangerous, if it's not farenough away from

the I mean, it's far, plenty of room. You know,
I'm trying to make the greatshot, even though I'm not trying
to show that I could do it.
Yeah, let's talk about being thegoat. And I think for the goat,
Oh, wow.

People call me the baby goat. I think this
is the first time somebody'scalling me the goat.

So, and I want to start with Roger Federer. So
let's talk about his stats here.
So Roger Federer played in 1526singles matches, and won nearly
80% of them. But interestingly,he only won 50% of the points
within those matches. He wonabout 25% of tournaments. He
played in his best years, he wona little over half. You've won
85% of your events, and the gapbetween you and the second best

(11:01):
player is bigger than the gapbetween the number two player
the number 10 player, you'reonly five foot six, and the
thought and the tennis or thethought, you're only five foot
six, and the thought in thepickable world is taller places,
taller players do better. Whatare you doing differently? And
why can't people come now andkick your butt

well. Roger Federer, I looked up to very
much and I was a kid. He's myfavorite pro tennis player of
all time, so I love that usedhis stats as far as my height
goes. I think there's kind of inpickleball this thing where you
can be too tall, because youjust become this big target and
you can't get as low. So Ithink, honestly, in my opinion,
this isn't guys. I'm talkingabout women right now. I would

(11:44):
say the best women pickleballplayers right now are anywhere
from five four to 510 but thenthe women who kind of are above
that, maybe even 510 is tootall. But like, I think if
you're above 510 as a woman,it's kind of a disadvantage. And
maybe if you're below five four,also disadvantage. So somewhere

(12:04):
in that range, I would sayprobably the best height for a
pickleball player is like fiveeight. So I'm a couple inches
shorter than that, but it seemsto be working.

How are you so much better than everybody else?
I honestly don't

know. Many people have asked me if I play
pickleball in another life? Sothat might be the answer the
question, but I've been playingfor a while. I've been playing
since I was younger. Like Isaid, a lot of the people I'm
playing against played collegetennis. They didn't play
pickleball growing up, so a lotof their strokes and stuff are
very tennis like, whereas mineare tennis like, but they're
also pickleball likes. Thatmight be helping me also, my mom

(12:38):
was number one in the worldbefore I was so might be in my
genes. A little bit might be agenetic thing, but I don't know.
Most people say what makes mereally good at Pickleball is my
IQ. That was also what made mereally good in soccer was my IQ.
I was just very smart. I was agood passer, very good a sister.
My best thing wasn't my speed orhow hard I could shoot the ball.

(12:58):
It was always just, you know, Iwas very smart. And I think on
the pickleball court, it's kindof the same thing, just my
decision making is my best. Ismy best thing. So maybe it's
that my mom says, My mom isalways right. So my mom might be
right on this. My mom says,right,

we've had people on the show, many of the most
successful people in the worldon the show said, Never listen
to your parents, because onlyyou know, only you know the best
outcome for yourself. Well, mymom,

she's complimenting me in this, but
she's saying, or she says, thatmy mental toughness is what
makes me the best. Because therehave been many matches where
I've been down a game in sevenone and come back and won, or
I've been down 10 two and comeback and won the game like I
never give up, and I'm afighter, and I think that's what
she thinks is what makes me thebest. So maybe it's combination

(13:46):
of those two things

you're only Well, let's go back for a
second. You said in the showmaybe 30 minutes ago that you
have all these other players nowcoming up wanting to play and
getting in the sport, there arebetter athletes today. I mean,
some people who would criticizeyou and Ben, being the number
one players in the world. Youwere early. Was much easier to

(14:10):
be number one, but you're stillkicking everyone's ass today,
and at some point. I mean, arethe players getting better and
better as a competition in thelast five years, or two years,
even one year been

I think so. I think it's a combination of many
things I think you're seeing. Imean, there's still not even
just Ben and I, but there arestill players who are the best
when Ben and I were the best,and they're still the best now,
because those players are stillgetting better. But you also see
players who were great a coupleyears ago and they haven't
gotten any better. So you know,they're not at the top anymore.
So I think it's a combination ofthat. You've also got new

(14:44):
players who are coming in, whoare getting really good, and a
couple of them have made it moreon the men's side than the
women's side. I've seen thereare more guys, there are more
newer guys right now who aredoing well on the men's side
than there are the women'sthere's a couple women. But
also, I think the. Fact that thepaddles have gotten hotter, more

(15:05):
spinny have has given people theopportunity to get better at
things. So that's why, maybe onTV, it looks a lot better as
well, because we have betterequipment, so we're able to do
cooler things with ball etc,which also might be why players
are getting better. So I don'tknow. I don't know. I think it's
combination of a lot of things,but there's definitely more room
for newer players to get intothe sport. I'm personally

(15:27):
excited for when it's not likethe college tennis players
coming into the sport, when it'slike kids who have played their
whole life coming into thesport, I think that's when
you're gonna see some like,insane pickleball like, if
you've played pickleball fromseven years old to now you're
turning pro at 20 or whatever,they're going to be amazing.
Whereas, if you played collegetennis your life, and you've
played Pickleball for two years,but you're pro, you're not going

(15:48):
to be as good, you know. So Ithink it's going to be really
cool. Hopefully I'll get to playagainst some of those people,
because I am younger in thefuture, but that would be
awesome. Throughout

our careers, we all have moments that we're not
particularly proud of, andyou're extremely mature for your
age, and I think I'm sure it'sbecause you come from a very
mature, successful, educatedfamily, and you're also worldly,
right? Because you've beendealing with adults, and your
honestly

get more nervous talking to kids my age
than I do to adults,

but when you 16 years old, you had an incident
on the court where you lost andyou cheered the opponent who
beat you, and you threw yourracket and stormed off. Yes,
what did you learn from thatexperience? And how do you

not proud of that at all? So a little
backstory on that event. So thatwas my fourth tournament in a
row, so that, like, a month, Ihad been playing a tournament
every week. That month, it waslast tournament, and leading up
to the event, my trainers toldme not to play. My mom told me
not to play. They're like, it'stoo much. But I was going for
this record, which was seven,gonna be seven triple crowns in

(16:57):
a row, and it had never beenbroken, or, like, somebody had
set like, six or something, butseven would be like, to break
this record, and if I didn'tplay one event, it would reset.
So I was like, I felt like in myhead that I needed to play this
event. I had to play this event.
So I put a lot of pressure onmyself. I was reading all these
social media comments, andpeople were like, Oh, is she
gonna break this record, like,this weekend? So I was getting

(17:19):
this all in my head, all in myhead, and the girl I lost, who I
actually warmed up with thatmorning, which I never do. I
always warm up with my mom, butI warmed up with this girl, Tyra
this morning, who's actually afriend of mine. Now, looking
back on it, it's funny, becauseshe was new. She was like a new
up and comer. So going into thematch, I was feeling pressure.
Everybody was saying this girlwas really good. You know, was

(17:41):
she gonna be better than me? Iwas feeling a ton of pressure
going to the match. Also, like,sitting in the crowd, was this
guy on social media who had,like, hounded me on, like, said
bad things about me on socialmedia. So I was, like, paying
attention to that. I wasfreaking out in the court. The
court was kind of weird, like Iwas these are not excuses, by
the way. I'm just telling you.
This could have not happened,but it's all going through my

(18:03):
head when I'm playing the match.
So I'm literally, like, goingcrazy. Like, I'm going on the
silence talking to my mom duringthe match. I'm rambling, I'm
screaming. I'm like, I don'tknow what's going on. I don't
want to be here. Like, I wasbasically, like, telling her
that I want to lose like I was,which I never do. Like, I said,
I'm a fighter. I always fight onthe court, and this time, I was
just completely giving up, andthe girl I was playing was
playing extremely well, and weget to the third game, I won the

(18:27):
second game, we get to the thirdgame, and I have a chance to win
this match, and I really justhave a total like mental
breakdown, like on the court.
And this has never reallyhappened to me before, but I
think it was just all thepressure I was feeling from all
these outside things that waskind of weighing on me. And this
girl was playing really well, soI was like, you know, I was
doubting myself, and then Iended up losing the match. And

(18:50):
in my head, I was very psychoticat the moment. I was like, so
happy. That's why I cheered. Iwasn't like, cheering that she
like, I wasn't cheering to her,like, congrats. You beat me. I
was, like, cheering to myself,like, yay. Finally, I lost,
which is so psychotic, likelooking back on it, and I tapped
her paddle. I tossed my paddleat my mom, looking back on it,

(19:11):
terrible decision as well, runoff the court to my dad, like,
go into the bathroom, stillfreaking out. Like, that day
was, like, one of the worst daysof my pickleball career. Like,
just everything that happened, Ifelt so bad. The next morning I
texted Tyra. I was like, youplayed amazing, great job. I'm
so sorry. Like, I was feeling somuch pressure that I just kind
of like exploded at the end. Andshe had, she had played

(19:32):
professional tennis, so she kindof understood, and she like,
text me this really nice textback, like, I get it, you're
under a lot of pressure. Like,thank you for texting me back,
whatever. And we're friends now,so it's okay. But looking back
on it, it was, it was not great,but I did, like you said,
learned a lot from it. Now, whenI lose, I don't sprint off the
court. I, you know, at leastwalk off sometimes, a lot of

(19:55):
times, I don't bring my bag ontothe court. I just bring, like,
my paddle in my water. Yeah, soif I do lose, I just kind of
like, take my water, my paddle,like, walk up the court. I
always shake my opponent's hand.
I don't do anything crazy.
Sometimes, even if I'm aboutthis one time I was getting
ready to lose, I was down seven,one in the third I was in my
mind, this was like, kind ofright after I had just lost a

(20:15):
tire. I was like, Emily, if youlose this match, I was like,
going through what I was goingto do. I met him. Like, you're
going to shake this person'shand, you're gonna say, Good
match. You're gonna walk to yourbag, you're gonna, like, slowly
walk off the court. I was goingthrough everything, and then
ended up winning the match,which is crazy. So I think now,
like, just kind of saying, like,it's okay to lose, like you're
gonna lose every now and then.
That's a big thing. My mom toldme, because, like, in my head.

(20:38):
Like, at that period, I hadn'tlost in months, like, a long
time, and I was just like, Ifelt like everybody on social
media was like, Pickleball isboring to watch Anna's winning
everything. It's so dumb, likesomebody needs to beat her. And
I was letting everybody get tome, and I was thinking about
stats, which is why I don'tthink about stats anymore,
because they do get in my head.

(20:59):
So I just think looking back onit, it reminded me there are
more things in life to pick aball number one. Number two,
you're gonna lose, and you can'tact like an idiot when you lose.
Number three is, be respectfulto your opponents, especially
when they beat you. Because notonly is it like a big moment in
their career, but it's also abig moment in yours, because I'm

(21:20):
not necessarily losing all thetime, so people don't really get
to see how I lose. So if everytime I lose, I act like an
idiot, people are going to sayI'm a terrible loser, et cetera.
But Gary V actually, I wasreading something about that he
posted the other day, and it waslike, you can't live your life
worrying about what other peoplethink about you. I saw that

(21:40):
post. You did see that post? AndI think that's something that,
you know, I've been in thelimelight. I'm so young, I'm
still learning. I think my momposted something like, I'm gonna
make mistakes, but I'm alsogonna learn from them. Like,
after I did that, which I did, Ilearned from it. So I think just
kind of focusing on myself andnot what other people are saying
about me on social media hasbeen a big thing. Like, now if I

(22:02):
ever lose a match, I deleteInstagram for a couple days, and
like, I don't want to seeanything. So I've kind of
learned a couple of things likeafter that, like, on what to do,
to not let it get so big in yourhead. But of course, I'm sure
I'm gonna make another mistake,and I'll hopefully learn from
that one. Something

I've learned in my own career, in that I teach
all my mentees and the people Icoach, is we learned so much
more from our failures than oursuccesses. How much has losing
contributed to your success?

100% I think sometimes too, in the past, I've
gotten complacent with, like,winning a lot of things, and
then, you know, being like, oh,like pickleball, and then I
lose. I'm like, Emily, what werethinking? Like, get back out
there, you know, start trainingharder. And a couple weeks ago,
I lost this women's doublesmatch. And it was, you know, in
my head about it. I got super inmy head about it. I was like,

(22:49):
calling my mental coach. I wastalking to my mom, like, I need
to work on this. I'm so bad atthis, like, Whatever, whatever.
And my mom was like, Anna Lee,you've lost three times in
women's doubles this year. Like,you need to, like, like, take
things, you know, like, don'tjust think about the last match
you played, like you need tothink about this whole year and
what you've done, and stopdoubting yourself and believe in
yourself. So I'm still learningthings to this day when I lose.

(23:10):
So I definitely think in thefuture, most of the things I
learn in life will be from mylosses.

You're a role model to a lot of young women,
teenagers and adults, frankly,and you're a goddess in the
prickle ball world, for lack ofand you are the goat. Do you
feel the daily pressure oflosing? And how much? How do you
deal with that pressure? Andthen, as a second part of that,

(23:36):
what's your advice to all theother young women who look up to
and feel the pressure need towin. How do you best cope with
that? For

sure, I haven't 100% figured out, you
know, the best way to deal withthat. I still think I'm trying
to figure that out. Butsomething that always makes me
feel better is sometimes or thislast tournament I went and
played in MLP, and this girlcame up to me, I think she was
probably early 20s. She gave methis card, and she was like,
Here, read this. We took aphoto. She's like, read this
later tonight or whatever. And Iwas like, okay, so I took the

(24:06):
card, and then I was in my hotelroom, and I read the card, and
it was like, You're soinspirational to so many girls
and to myself, Keep being you.
You have so much more to do inthe pickleball world. Like it
was just this, like, amazingmessage. And it was so sweet,
and it made me feel so good,because on Instagram, I feel
like, even if somebody says 10nice things about you, but
somebody says one bad thing, youfocus on the one bad thing,

(24:26):
which is why I've tried to stayoff social media and stay off
like, I'll go on social mediafor like, my friends and stuff,
but if it's a pickleball post,like, I don't read the comments
stuff like that. So it's reallynice when somebody like, gives
you, like a letter, tells yousomething in person, and it's
not just behind, like somebodytyping something online. So it
really means a lot to me when Italk, get to, like, talk to my

(24:47):
fans, because I try to do thatwhen I go to tournaments, like
some, I know some pros don'tlike to, you know, they feel
bothered by, you know, peopleasking them for autographs or
talking to them. But I reallylike talking to my fans,
especially when my mom and Iused to play together. Their
mother and daughters used tocome up to us, like crying,
like, oh my gosh, you'veinspired our relationship so
much like we've grown so muchcloser together by playing
pickleball. So all those storiesI have to remind myself of on

(25:09):
the daily, because, like I said,you see one negative comment, or
somebody says one negative thingto you, and you just think about
that. So as far as like, dealingwith the losses goes, I think I
probably have a talk with my momat least once a week about it,
because I still haven't quitefigured out how to deal with it,
but I think I do a pretty goodjob with it. I also talk to my

(25:29):
mental coach, and sometimeswe'll talk for two hours, and
it'll make me feel better. Idon't know there's just little
things. I think one thing too isjust being around people who
love you, like I travel with myparents and after, yes, some of
my grandparents come half thetime. They're getting older, so
they don't come quite as muchanymore, but just kind of like
playing your match and thengetting to reset and just talk

(25:52):
with your family. Like, if Iwere to travel by myself after I
played a match, I'd probablyjust be thinking about
pickleball, like all night, butwhereas we'll go to dinner and
we'll have fun. And, you know,maybe we'll go sightsee before
the tournament or after thetournament, or something like
that, to kind of get my mind offof it. So I think it's just
having a good balance of, like,pickleball and life stuff. My
favorite is life stuff. So I'mlooking forward to this break
I'm about to have after thistournament, taking a couple days

(26:14):
off pickleball, but then I'llget the bug and, like, want to
play for six hours every dayagain. Let's talk about money.

Okay? And when pickleball first got going, you
win $500 for a tournament. Whenyou look at tennis, if you're
lucky, right, you get freepaddles and maybe some, some
very small tokens like that. Inmen's tennis and women's tennis,
if you win the US Open, you earn$3.6 million each is pickleball
going there. I think

eventually, like I said right now, with all
the contracts going on, a lot ofthe money is tied up in these
contracts, and it's likeguaranteed money. So the prize
pool at these tournaments isn'tas big as it would be if you
didn't have these contracts. Ithonestly might be, if it's not
$3.6 million if you want tomajor, but it'd probably be a
lot of money, and kind of wouldshock the world at like, how

(27:03):
much money pickleball playersare actually making, like,
overall. So I think once thesecontracts kind of run out,
that's when they'll startputting that money towards prize
money. And like, a major will bemillions of dollars if you win
down the road.

So Ben Johns is the highest paid men's
pickleball player in the world,2.5 million. Kelly Wolf, your
awesome manager, came outpublicly this year and said
you're gonna make over $3million which made you the
highest paid athlete in thesport. You have sponsors like
Carvana, yeah, that's crazy one,Selkirk and some of these other
title tech companies. Or, sorry,okay, all right, well, we'll
redo that. That, that whole one.
When you look at professionalgolf, you've got Scottie

(27:39):
Scheffler, who, this year alone,and just prize money, not
sponsors, made 66 point 4million and the top golfer in
the world, Nelly corda, makes$3.7 million a year. What do you
think the top pickleball playerswill be making 510 years from
now?

I really I can't answer that question, but
I can make a comment on how muchmore money Scotty is making than
how much money she's making,whereas in pickleball, it's much
more even like to what Ben'ssaying I'm making more money
than he is. So it's kind ofcool, and it's kind of always
been this way where men andwomen in pickleball get paid the
exact same. So I think in thefuture, it's honestly going to
be like that, because thewomen's match doubles matches

(28:19):
are sometimes watched more thanthe men's doubles matches are
just because we have more fasthands exchanges, so they
consider it more fun to watch,yeah, which is kind of cool,
especially because growing up asa female athlete, when I was
playing pickleball, I was like,Oh, everybody gets paid the
same. And then you look at allthese other sports and you're
like, that's not necessarily the

case. So let's talk about money for a minute.
And when I I started, I cofounded a public company, a
technology company, and at somepoint our valuations were $35
billion which at the time wasmore than the value of Chrysler
Ford and GM combined. As a kidfrom Detroit that made that made
new. Did you start the company?
I was a co founder, one of fourco founders. So I was very
wealthy on paper. And when Iwent to meet all these money

(29:02):
management firms, they allquartered me. And I remember
being with the president ofGoldman, Sachs, okay, who, and I
consider myself financiallysophisticated, but he gave me
this problem, and he said, ifyou have, if you have a 31 day
month, and you have a penny onyour first day, how much money
do you and it doubles every day.
How much money do you have atthe end of 31 days? And I just

(29:25):
at some point, you can no longerdo the math in my head. And it's
we talk about the value ofcompounding to creating great
wealth, saving and compounding.
And the answer to that questionis $10.7 million and I've won a
lot of dinners on that, on thatquestion, just doing some simple
math, if you make $3.6 millionthis year, and let's say 50%

(29:46):
goes to taxes and coaches andtravel and living, you're
probably saving a milliondollars, if you're being
conservative. And let's saytoday at I think you'll be 18
years old next month, yeah, butlet's say you put. Put a million
dollars in the bank today, andlet's say every year thereafter,
you put away $750,000 per year,which you should do with all

(30:07):
your sponsor money. Money isgoing to go up and up and up
after 13 years, when you'll be30 years old, you'll have $21
million and, and, and if youinvest in the market, S p5 100,
and just put it away. It's taxefficient. The S p5 100 when
you're 30 years old, you'll have$21 million when you're 20 in 23
years from now, when you're 40years old, you'll have 68 point

(30:32):
6,000,033 years from now, whenyou're 50 years old, you'll have
$190 million and let's just go alittle a little more than that,
put away a million dollars inthe $750,000 in 50 years. When
you're 50 years old, you'll have240 $5 million Wow. Are you
getting good financial advice atthis point? And are everyone

(30:55):
coming after you to say, Hey,Anna Lee, let me manage your
money for you.

Funny enough, I let me ask my mom one
question, Mom, where's the withMarshall? What's Rockefeller?
Okay, so we live in a communityin Florida, and there a lot of
wealthy people live in thiscommunity. It's like their
second and third homes. So a lotof them have, like offered to
help me to invest my money. Weended up with Rockefeller, so

(31:24):
they're managing a lot of mymoney. My grandfather also was a
business owner. He in Allentown.
He owned cold storagebusinesses, and he just
distributed all of Godivachocolate for the entire
country. So he sold, he justsold his company, like five
years ago, and he's beeninvesting it. And one thing he
likes to do is real estate. Sohe'll like, buy a house, flip it

(31:47):
and sell it. So he and I'mturning 18, like you said, so
I'm wanting to move out of thehouse. So he suggested to me,
obviously, I do have money withRockefeller, but he suggested to
me to buy this house in Delrayand flip it and live in it for a
couple years and then sell it,and I'd make some money on it,

(32:07):
especially because South Floridareal estate is booming right
now. So currently I have a housethat is completely gutted in
Delray. My grandfather ishelping, doing all the
construction and renovating. Sohopefully by March, I'll be in
my first house. So that's veryexciting.

So I you know, when you make money and you're
financially sophisticated andyou've done well, I've had a lot
of people come to me forfinancial advice, and just as a
disclaimer, I'm not givingfinancial advice on this show,
okay, but nobody beats the S,p5, 100 over the long term, no
one after 30 years. I thinkWarren Buffett is the only

(32:47):
person. And if you had metWarren Buffett in 1965 in
Nebraska, you know you werelucky, but no one is going to do
that today. Your advantage topeople coming into money later
is that you're making money atsuch a young age, and the
compounding, really, when I talkabout the one penny a month
doubling, you have a chance tocreate enormous wealth. So I

(33:07):
would advise you, as a newfriend, S and p5 100, put it
away. No one's going to beat itover 30 years, nobody, and
you're not going to be chargedfees. And when we're done with
the show, I can show you aspreadsheet that someone
charging fees that you think is1% is a great deal. Over 30
years, you're going to be paying10s of millions of dollars of
fees that you don't really yeah,I'll take all the advice I can

(33:29):
get. I'm going to send you aspreadsheet that is going to
blow your mind, by the way.
Okay, do you have a personalfinancial goal? Kind

of when I first started playing
pickleball, I obviously knew Iobviously knew I wasn't going to
be number one in the worldthrough my entire career because
I was so young, and I was numberone, and I probably won't be
number one in 15 years from now.
I mean, I hope I am, but youknow, that's a very tough goal
to set for yourself, so I alwaysthought, like you said, I'm
making the money now, and I havefor the past couple I wasn't
making what I'm making now, butI was making a decent amount of

(33:58):
money the past couple years. Andlike you said, I save money, so
I've been saving it all. AndI've always kind of wanted to be
like a business woman in thefuture, like figure out,
especially since Pickleball isso new, what I can do in the
space that nobody's done before,or because I'm number one in the
world, could help build or aspecific company, like taking
equity, instead of taking moneyright away and trying to build
that company. So I have a couplethings in the work works next

(34:21):
year that I'm excited about, asfar as products go and things
like that. But hopefully in thefuture, like when I'm done with
pickleball, I can figure outsomething in the pickleball
space to, like, continue workingand staying in it, but maybe not
playing professionally. So

let's talk about what makes people successful.
And one of the things that'scontributed to my success is
something called extremepreparation. I'm writing a book
by the same title, and thatmeans, when someone's preparing
for a podcast, maybe one hours,one hour researching a guest.
I've done 14 for this show, andthat's my average. How much? How

(34:58):
has extreme preparationcontributed? To your success of
being the goat of pickleball. I

just think a lot of people say this, but when
you're practicing, like,practicing how you would play a
match is, I think, a really bigthing. Some people maybe
practice. Maybe they're puttingin six hours on the court, and
I'm only putting in two and ahalf, but the two and a half
hours I'm playing, I'm, like,working extremely hard, you
know, I'm not hitting any shotsthat I wouldn't hit in a match.
So I think preparing on thecourt is something that's really

(35:24):
helped me. But I also thinkpreparing mentally. I think one
of my biggest strengths on thecourt is strategy, and that's
one reason because my mom, mymom's like, the best strategist
in the game, and we have areally solid game plan before I
go out on the court. Whereas Ifeel like some players just go
out and they're like, All right,let's just play. But they didn't
know that person's backhandsucks, and if you hit the ball
three times their backhand,they're gonna eventually miss it

(35:46):
or do something stupid there. SoI think a big thing is not only
like training really hard andpracticing really hard, but also
being smart when you're on thecourt about where to hit certain
balls, and if something's notworking, changing that and not
continuing to do the same thingover again, but having those
like you said, preparation, likein your head before you step on
the match. So you have plan A,plan B, plan C, Plan D. If

(36:06):
things aren't working,

they talk about Michael Jordan being the best
professional player ever in theNBA, some people may say is
LeBron. But what really madeMichael Jordan great was his
mental attitude of winning. Hewas so competitive. You said you
have a mental coach? Yes, howmuch of your success has
contributed to mentalpreparation? And having that
coach

for sure? My mental coach is Jack Llewellyn.
He used to be the mental coachfor the Braves. He also did a
couple of NASCAR, famous NASCARdrivers. So he definitely knows
what he's doing. I think themain thing with him is not
focusing too much on like, oh, Ihave this mental problem or this
mental block, but just kind oftalking things through. Like we
could be on the phone for twohours and I'll tell him my

(36:49):
problem, and we'll go here, andthen we'll finally get back to
here. Like it's just this crazything where you don't really
think you're talking about yourproblems, but by the end of the
call, you're like, man, he justmade me feel so much better. You
know about whatever it is I wascalling him about. But I also
think something that a mentalcoach can kind of tell you to
do, but you have to do yourself.
And even before I had thismental coach, I think I was

(37:10):
pretty good at it. Was justbeing positive always, you know,
even if you're down, like Isaid, tend to thinking you can
come back and win, trustingyourself if you miss a shot.
Okay, it was the right idea.
Like, don't worry about it. AnnaLee, like, next point, like, you
know, never being super negativeon yourself, like smashing your
paddle, like in the middle of amatch, or, like yelling at

(37:34):
yourself, telling yourselfyou're stupid, you need a stupid
shot. Like, I try when I'm onthe court, I actually talk to
myself a lot, but it's alwayslike, positive. It's like, fight
or be you, or come on, anal. Yougot that like, you know what I
mean? I'm never like, anal. Yousuck. You should stop playing
pickleball on the court. So Ithink being positive is
something really big that youcan kind of prepare for before
the match starts. But once youget in the match, you kind of

(37:54):
have to keep reminding yourselfof that.

You get to do some cool things and one cool
thing, and it's been hugelypositive for you. As you met Ben
Johns at a tournament. You guyshave played mixed doubles
together. You're the best teamin the world. You just crush
everybody. Did Ben Johns reallybeat your mom and you 11 nothing

(38:17):
in ping pong when he was playingwith a phone, phone in the
spoon. I

don't think he played us together, but he
probably played us one v1 likewhen he played me one v1 that
happened with a phone I but Idon't feel too bad about it,
because he's beating people waybetter than me and ping pong
with the same thing. He playedping pong like he can hit with,
like, professional ping pongplayers. It's like crazy, like
he can be on a table. He's like,hitting these crazy ping pong
shots like me and ping pong, Ihave, like, a two handed

(38:44):
backhand. I just fooled around.
But he's like, I think he couldbe, like, a pro ping pong player
if he really tried to. He'sreally good. A lot

of people don't realize this. I mean, you watch
professional football, you watchprofessional basketball, and
there's a lot of trash talkingon the court. There's also trash
talking on the pickleball court,isn't there?

There is a lot more on the men's side. The
women don't really trash talk,but the men can get into it
sometimes.

What are they saying, man, you can't get me.
Yeah,

like, if the guy's like, maybe like, a little
shorter, he'll be, like, You'retoo small, or, like, too short
to get that. Or maybe it'll belike, no hands, or that's a
spot, or way out, or that's abag, which is like, when you hit
somebody, it's called a bodybag. So be like, That's a bag. I

(39:30):
don't know things like that,anything they get in their
heads. Your women mainly yellwhen they win a point. They just
scream really loud. That's kindof their trash talk. I guess

you're a very attractive 17 year old
millionaire, very mature. Areyou dating and how are you
meeting guys these days? Oryou're not doing it at all? Um,

I don't really have time for it at the
moment. Not, not to say that I'mnot looking for one. Like, if
there's the right guy who comesup, like, I'd be interested, but
I'm not, like, gonna go out ofmy. Way to like

comes up at a tournament, says, Hi, Emily, I'm
a fan. I don't know that mightbe

a little weird. That might be a little
weird if it's a fan, I tend tolike, think I tend to find
people who are very athletic,attractive, but that's not
always the best. Because my momlikes to tell me that
professional male athletes mightnot be the best marry I

agree with you, and you've heard all the
stories, and I have too, and Ihave friends that are
professional athletes, so yeah,or actors or musicians, okay,
so, yeah, fame. Fame brings alot of it's nice to be famous, I
guess, because you'resuccessful, but there is a huge
downside to fame as well.
Personally,

I always said the best thing was, like, in
life, like, if I could justrestart life and, like, snap my
fingers would be to be superwealthy, but nobody knew who I
was.

Do you know how many times I said that exact
words? I tell my team that, andit's just, when you're doing
something public and you'rewinning, everyone knows exactly
what you're making. They don'tknow on the sponsor side what
you're getting, but they do knowprize money as being a part of a
public company? No, it's true,and it's

scary sometimes too, because some
people don't like you. Somepeople really like you. So like,
I've had a stalker at one event.
I had this one guy like, hug meand like, squeeze me and like,
mess up. Like, my like, stir itup. Like, I've just had, like,
weird things happen to me, butat the same time, it's kind of
cool, because I feel like Imight have an impact on some
people's lives, like by what I'mdoing in pickleball, like maybe

(41:24):
giving somebody an outlet, orsomething like that. So that's
awesome. But at the same time, Ifeel like I feel much safer if
you know a lot of people didn'tknow who I was. But as far as
dating goes, I guess we'll we'llsee maybe you know somebody you
can set me up with,

I mean, my son, my son would kill me for saying
this, by the way, but, I mean,Charlie, he's a nice kid. He's
20 years old. He's verymotivated, and I like to think
he comes from a good family, andhe's humble buddy. He's gonna

(42:04):
crucify me for saying this.

That's funny.
But what Funny story, though,one of my MLP teammates, he's 26
and he tries to set me up withall of his friends every time we
go to a tournament and hisfriends come. He's like, an
elite this one, like, I'm like,will like, stop trying to set me
up with all your friends. It'slike, so funny. He's trying to
set me up on like, the weeklybasis. So

I think so 10 years from now, when you're
still gonna be considered thegoat of pickleball, what if you
could go back and tell yourselfsomething 10 years what would
you say to yourself 10 years inthe future, from today, probably
people are going back watchingthis. Probably

I would tell myself to just enjoy it. I feel
like, especially the last coupleyears, like, I haven't really,
like, enjoyed it that much, likeI've had fun and what I'm doing,
but it's like, I never really,like, sit back and like, think
about what I'm really doing. Andlike, Emily, this is really
cool. Like, all the thingsyou're getting to do and
everything. Like, I feel like,right now, I'm just like, I need
to get better. I need to work,which I also have to do that,
but probably in 10 years, I'mgonna be like Annalie. You

(43:05):
probably should have enjoyed ita little bit more, because right
now, just it feels like mylife's crazy and I'm always
doing stuff, and sometimes I'mlike, I just kind of want to be
home, but I feel like in 10years from now, I'll be like,
it'll be like, Anna Lee, whatyou did was awesome, and you
should enjoy it.

We're getting to the end of our show now. I
always conclude the end of theshow with a game I call fill in
the blank to excellence. Are youready to play? Yeah, let's play.
The number one goal in my lifeis to be the best. My number one
personal goal is to be kind. Thebiggest lesson I've learned in
my life is losing isn't the endof the world. My biggest regret

(43:39):
is going crazy after somematches. Probably my biggest
fear is not reaching mypotential. The craziest thing
that's happened in my career isa

college soccer coach asking me to come
play soccer at their university.

How much money was the professional soccer team
in Germany going to pay you,nothing,

nothing. I think we were actually gonna
have to pay to go through theprogram. Also, when I first
started playing pickleball, weweighed, like, how much money I
could be making if I was, like,the best soccer player ever,
like Alex Morgan. And then wemade, weighed what I was gonna
be making, like, the first yearof my pickleball career. We
were, like, people inprofessional women's soccer
making like, 30,000 on average,like to play the soccer team and
impeccable. I was going to bemaking that my first year. So we

(44:25):
were like, that's better option.

Jessica Burma was on my show. She's the CEO,
President of women's MajorLeague Soccer. We're a team just
sold by Willow Bay, leading theteam for just sold for two, $50
million Wow. Professionalwomen's team years ago would
have been a few million dollars.
So again, it's commensurate withTV revenues that are coming to

(44:49):
come into the sport and theexplosion of popularity and
women's female soccer.

Yeah, that's all. I love soccer. So I love
singing do well, especially onthe women's side. So it's.
Really cool to hear. The

funniest thing that's happened in my career is,

um, funniest thing that's happened in my
career. I played in anexhibition once, and I played
really bad. And I don't know Ithought it was pretty funny,
because I was like, missinglike, really easy shots, and the
people thought I was gonna begood, and I was like, terrible
that day. I don't know what wasgoing through my

mind. That was pretty funny. The best advice
I've ever received is just beyou. The best advice I could
give to any 17 year old is justbe you. 10 years from now, I'm
going to be doing

something in pickleball or having a family,
both one or the other. I don'tknow, I don't know that I could
play professional pickleball andlike, be a mother and, like,
have a family. So I thinkprobably the latter. I'll
probably be retired by then. Butthat's kind of it's. I'd only be
27 so I don't know that's. Ihaven't figured it out yet.

20 years from now, I'm going to be doing
something business related andpickable. If you could pick one
trait that's contributed to yoursuccess, it is my positivity.
The one thing I've dreamed aboutdoing for a long time, but
haven't, is playing

in the Olympics. Do you think Olympics
is

coming to pickleball? I do. I don't
pickleball probably

the next, like, eight years. I would say
like maybe Australia.

The single greatest, the single greatest
athlete of all time is, oh, this

is tough, because what I'm gonna pick
might not be the single greatestathlete of all time, but I love
Roger Federer, so I'm gonna haveto say him. Have you

met Roger? I have not. Do you want to meet
Roger? I do. So how are yougonna do that?

Well, my agent, Kelly wolf knows a lot of
people in tennis, so maybe oneday I've actually hit with
Martina Hingis, who is numberone in the world of women's
tennis, because she knew her,but she doesn't know anybody
close enough to Roger. So Idon't know. I need somebody who
knows Roger pretty well.

I actually don't think you do. I think you know,
I made my career cold callingpeople doing outrageous things.
And I bet if Kelly calls Rogersagent, and she obviously can get
the name and just say that youwanted to meet Roger. Roger is
definitely going to meet with Iwould

even fly to Switzerland. We went to
Switzerland last year for ourvacation. It was like the best
vacation ever. So I would goback to Switzerland to meet
Roger.

The one question you wish I had asked you but
didn't, is why I started

playing professional pickleball? Why did
you start playing professionalpickleball? Because I loved it.

How much is passion important to our
success?

Passion is very important to our success,
especially my success, becauseif I didn't love pickleball, I
definitely wouldn't continue.
Wouldn't have continued to doit. I played tennis for four
years and decided to stopbecause I didn't love it
anymore. So that probably wouldhave happened to pickleball, but
I still love pickleball, so Ikeep playing

it. This has been a great interview. I'm so
happy. Thank you so much. Been afan for a while. Gonna continue
to be a fan. Now that I knowyou, I hope I'm gonna be able to
get good tickets to my firstpickleball events, for sure,
only if you bring your son,though. Okay, I'll bring my son,
by the way. I'll say this. I'llsay this as well on camera.

(47:56):
Charlie is a very goodpickleball player for the amount
of times that he played, and heloves to taunt me on this and he
can pickle me, which is, whichmeans you lose 11 nothing.

I've done that in a pro tournament. You
actually super pickle someone,which is where you start
serving, and you continue outthe entire game serving like you
didn't even side out. Love

it. Love it. I appreciate you coming. I know
you're very busy. You're goingdown a tournament. Hope you
crush it, hope you continue tofollow your career. You.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Anna Leigh Waters: Mental Toughness, Financial Wisdom, and the Future of Pickleball | E145