Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
Hi friends, thanks so much for downloading this podcast and
I certainly hope what you hear will encourage, edify, equip,
enlighten and then will gently but consistently push you out
there into the marketplace of ideas. Wait. But before you
start to listen, may I take one minute and tell
you about this month's truth tool? It's written by Doctor
Ronnie Floyd and it's called The Supernatural Power of Prayer
and Fasting. You know, prayer and fasting are something that
(00:21):
we're invited to do. In fact, the Bible talks about
it a lot. And Jesus put fasting on the same
level as prayer. But most people don't understand it and
aren't quite sure how it works. Well, in this wonderful
book that Doctor Floyd has written, he wants us to
fix our eyes upon Jesus and fill our lives with
his strength. He reminds us that through prayer and fasting,
we can experience a profound transformation. He wants us to
(00:43):
learn how to listen to God's voice, to transform pride
into humility, to walk in obedience, to surrender our lives
to his will, and to experience his miracles. If you'd
like to give a financial gift of any kind to
support in the market with Janet Parshall, I want to
give you this book as my way of saying thank you.
Just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. And
(01:03):
ask for the supernatural power of prayer and fasting. Or
go online to in the market with Janet Parshall, or
scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover
of the book, click on Make Your Donation and I'll
be happy to send it off to you. So that's
877 Janet 58 or online at In the Market with
Janet Parshall. The book again is called The Supernatural Power
of Prayer and Fasting. Also, you might want to consider
(01:26):
becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every
single month at a level of their own choosing. You
always get the truth tool, and in addition to that,
you are given a newsletter once a week that contains
my writing and an audio piece that only my partial
partners hear. You prayerfully consider the level you want to
give at and join the club. There are more and
more people becoming partial partners, so either way. 877 Janet
(01:48):
58 877 Janet 58 or online at in the market
with Janet Parshall and again this month's truth tool the
supernatural power of prayer and fasting. Prayerfully consider it, won't you?
And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends, this is
Janet Parshall and I want to welcome you to the
(02:09):
best of in the market. Today's program is prerecorded so
our phone lines are not open. But I do hope
you'll enjoy today's edition of The Best of In the
Market with Janet Parshall.
S2 (02:18):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (02:20):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (02:22):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:25):
Extremely rare.
S1 (02:26):
Safety.
S3 (02:26):
Move by a mage.
S5 (02:27):
17 years. The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S6 (02:31):
A divorce tax is not necessary.
S3 (02:46):
Hi, friends.
S1 (02:46):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you
so much for spending the hour with me. And is
this going to be a great conversation? Doctor Sam Storms
is our guest. And when Doctor Storms is in the house,
you can be pretty sure you're going to get some deep,
rich theology. A man who really understands God's Word. And
speaking of the word understanding. Do you know he's done
(03:06):
a series of books about understanding? Let me point this
out to you. He's done understanding spiritual gifts, understanding spiritual warfare,
understanding prayer. And he's got a brand new one out
called Understanding Worship Biblical Foundations for delighting in and Feasting
on God. And I have to tell you, when I
(03:28):
talk about rich theology, oh my word, I will never
think of the concept of worship again in the same light. Now,
let me just put a couple of things out there
quickly before I give the formal introduction to Doctor Storms.
We are not even through his understanding prayer book. It
is so good. It is so deep. It is so
rich that we've just stepped into a couple of chapters
and there's oh, so much more to explain. He's written
(03:50):
a book on penal substitutionary atonement. We're not even through
that book because it's such a deep, rich, broad, important,
crucial topic. And then we have, of course, our wonderful
conversations with Doctor Storms on a regular basis, where we
open the phone lines emanating from the books he wrote
called Tough Topics and Tough Topics, to where we let
you ask any question you have about the Bible or Christianity.
(04:10):
Wildly popular lines lit for the entire hour, every line
for that matter. But sometimes we don't take calls just
so that you and I can sit at the feet
of a good teacher. And that certainly is a descriptor
of Doctor Sam Storms. So I am thrilled about his
understanding series. I don't know if there are more. I'm
probably going to ask him sometime during our conversation if
there are, but right now my cup is filled to overflowing.
(04:31):
His books are so good and you don't read them fast.
You take your time, you go back, you reread a
section again because this isn't a oh, I've got a
publishing deadline. Get it out the door as fast as
I can. I mean, these are deeply prayed over, deeply researched,
and put together in a way in which the reader
is edified, equipped, enlightened, and encouraged about the power that
can be found in God's Word on a wide variety
(04:53):
of topics, not the least of which is the one
we're going to talk about today, which is worship. And
I'm telling you, I got into this and I thought, oh,
I just want you all to know, as my friends,
I am not rushing through this book, and I'm not
rushing through this conversation, because in the first two chapters alone,
there is a half a semester's worth of theology just
breaking down the concept of worship. So roll up your sleeves,
(05:13):
put on your biblical thinking cap, because we're going to
talk about understanding worship this hour. Now to the formal introduction.
Doctor Sam Storms wonderful teacher, by the way, is the
founder of Enjoying God Ministries. And by the way, the
title of his ministry struck me like a bolt of
lightning when I was reading his book, Understanding Worship because
enjoying God and worship are inexorably connected together. Now I
(05:37):
know why Doctor Storms named his ministry that. We'll talk
more about that in a bit. He's also the executive
director of the Convergence Church Network. He previously served previously
served as senior pastor of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City,
and he's a former professor, taught for a few years
at Wheaton College. I was a teacher there of theology,
and people just loved his class. He travels the United
(05:58):
States and abroad speaking at churches and conference. And as
I noted before, he's the author of many, many, many books.
But he also blogs. Sam storms. Sam storms. And you're
going to want to remember that if you forget it,
it's on the information page under his more, uh, elusive
biography and right next to the click for you to
be able to get understanding worship. But I want you
(06:19):
to remember Sam Storms, because it is a treasure trove
of things that he's written and preached on. And often
when he answers a question, he will reference an extrapolated
piece that he's written or preached on that deals with
the question that's been asked. So don't forget that it
really is a marvelous, ready reference library for you. Now,
having said all of that, roll up your sleeves and
let's see if we can begin to understand. Worship and
(06:41):
begin is the operative word because, uh, truth. Sam, I
have to tell you, I was absolutely blown away because
I had not really thought about it. It was something.
And I'm going to speak in the personal pronoun, as
the reader does always when they read the book. It's
something I do. It's something I'm called to do. Um,
I'm not quite sure if there's too much emphasis for us,
for me as a believer on the external manifestations of that,
(07:04):
whether or not you raise your hands, whether or not
you stand up, whether or not you move. I mean,
all of those things that are really, after reading your book,
superfluous and so marginal, so not what this is all about.
But I think it's really imperative for us to really
just start about the word worship. I looked it up
and I, I think in the King James at least,
and I know that it can be translated in other
(07:26):
ways in other versions. But in the King James 188 times,
the word worship is there. So obviously it's important to
the heart of God. But you start out about how
this changed in your life, and I want to talk
about that in a minute. But let me just do
this is the first day of class, and we've signed
up for the Understanding Worship class with Doctor Sam Storms.
What is the biggest misunderstanding we have about worship as believers?
S7 (07:49):
Well, that's quite an introduction. Janet, thank you very much.
It's good to be with you again today. Thank you.
I'm delighted to talk about this subject because as we'll
probably come come back to this statement later. This is
what I was created for. This is what you were
created for. This is what everybody listening to us was
created for. We were created to worship God. Um, it
(08:09):
is the pinnacle of Christian existence. Uh, we don't worship
God in order to achieve something else. It is. We
do everything else in order to worship. It's prayer, Bible study, evangelism,
you name it. Uh, it's all designed to, uh, to
inflame our hearts in heart, in great affection for and
delight in who God is. So, um, now I just lost.
(08:34):
What was the question? Get me going, and I just
get off track.
S1 (08:39):
Or else I'm delivering a word salad in great confusion.
So forgive me for that, but I was saying, just
as an introductory, if I were to ask you, what
is the biggest misunderstanding we as followers have about worship.
What would it be?
S7 (08:52):
Oh my. There are so many. But I think probably
the the biggest misunderstanding is the idea that when we worship,
we're bringing something to God that he otherwise lacks, and
we're supplying him in a way that he that reveals
that he's needy and dependent upon us, rather than coming
to God for all the the glory and the blessings
(09:13):
and the satisfaction that he provides for us in Jesus.
Because I think the way God glorifies us most, uh,
if I can use the words of my friend John Piper,
is by bringing satisfaction in him to our hearts. And so,
I mean, I can remember growing I grew up Southern Baptist,
and I can remember being told many times, even when
I left the Southern Baptist Church, many later years, later
(09:34):
in life, I would be told, well, you're coming to
give God glory tonight. You're coming to give God glory
in this service. And I always wondered, I didn't know
that God was lacking glory. I didn't know that he
was running short on it. How am I going to
give him glory? And it started me thinking about the
way in which we really do glorify God and the
way we don't, which we can talk about in a moment.
S1 (09:55):
Absolutely. And you do talk about it in the book
with eloquence, by the way. It's called understanding worship biblical
foundations for delighting in and feasting on God. Hang on
to that idea of us giving God something. We'll talk
about that when we get back. True satisfaction doesn't come
(10:15):
from worldly pleasure, but from a close relationship with God.
So how do we draw near to him? That's why
I've chosen the supernatural power of prayer and fasting. Is
this month's truth tool. Learn how these spiritual practices will
deepen your walk with him. As for your copy of
The Supernatural Power of Prayer and Fasting, when you give
a gift of any amount in the market, call 877858.
That's 877858 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
(10:40):
Doctor Sam Storms is with us and he has another
book in his understanding series. This one is called Understanding
Worship Biblical Foundations for, delighting in, and Feasting on God.
And that subtitle is so tremendously important. I'm going to
tell you in full disclosure, your ideas and beliefs about
worship are going to radically change. It's a whole lot
(11:01):
more than whether the song is in four 4 or
6 eight time, and whether or not you raise your
hands when you're having a worship time with music. And
Sam gets into that in his book. It's it's so
much richer a theological subject than I would have first imagined.
And then, of course, that's the way Doctor storms. Right?
So when you left the Southern Baptist Association, you were told,
as so many of us have heard, Sam, the idea
(11:23):
that worship is to give him glory. And you asked
a question that is really thought provoking, which is you
didn't know that we had to give him anything. Was
God lacking in glory? You write in the book that
worship is all about glorifying God by finding or gaining
personal satisfaction in him. When you worship, you glorify God
through glad hearted Started getting of all he gives. That's
(11:46):
that's a whole different perspective. That's not me giving something
to him. It's more what he's giving to me.
S7 (11:52):
That's precisely true. And it's important that people understand, because
when they first hear that language, they're going to say, well,
wait a minute. You're saying that you use God as
a tool to get your joy? My answer is no, no, no.
God isn't the tool. God's the treasure. I come in
worship in order to see him more clearly, to enjoy
his power, his presence, his love, his grace in order
(12:15):
to rest in the security I have in him because
of what Jesus did. So we come to God, you know,
let me put it this way. Um, getting back to
what I said just before the break, uh, I was
often told, um, don't come to worship, um, because you
need something, uh, that's selfish, and you need to come
to give something. And I said, well, I began to
(12:38):
think about, well, wait a minute. What if what I
need is more of God? What if I need is
more of his, uh, the revelation of his greatness and
his love and his power and his beauty and his majesty. Uh,
that's what I come to worship for. Because I am
desperately needy. I have nothing to offer God that he
doesn't already have. And yet what I gain is him. It's.
(13:00):
It's the intimacy with him. The knowledge of who he is,
the gratitude for all that he's done. Uh, there was
one verse of scripture that, uh, I don't know how
many people have connected this with worship, but it had
a massive impact on me as I was thinking about this.
And it's in my chapter in the book, How to
worship God without insulting him. And I know people say
(13:21):
what you mean, we can worship God and insult him
in doing so. And the answer is yes, because Paul,
in his speech on the Areopagus on Mars Hill, said this.
He said, the God who made the world and everything
in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not
live in temples made by man, nor is he served
(13:42):
by human hands as though he needed anything, since he
himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
So if we come to the Lord and we understand
he made the world, he made everything in it. He's
the Lord of heaven and earth. He doesn't dwell in
temples made by man. He gives to all mankind life
and life and breath and everything. What is there that
(14:03):
we think we can give him? Uh, that statement by
Paul that we do not, um, he's not served by
human hands. We don't come to God because he's needy.
We come to God because we are needy. We need
more of him. And worship is designed primarily to stoke
the fires of our affection for the Lord. Uh, to
(14:24):
intensify our our gratitude, our joy, our delight in him.
And that is the way in which he's glorified. So
getting back to the original question, uh, we do not
come to we get in a sense, we do come
to give God glory. But the question is, how do
we do it? Yes, we don't do it by offering him,
you know, a cooked goose on a platter as if
(14:45):
God is hungry. We don't come to him with our
money because God is poor, and he won't be able
to get anything done in the world unless we, you know,
increase our offerings. No, we come to God because he
alone is the fullness of wealth and joy and pleasure
and power. And he honors and glorifies himself by meeting
our desperate need for him. Um, you know, my my
(15:08):
life verse, Janet is Psalm 1611. You have made known
to us the pathway of life. In your presence is
fullness of joy. In at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
That's why I come to God in worship. Because my
heart wants joy. I want to be happy. Everybody else
does too. And it's not sinful to want to be happy.
What's sinful is when we try to satisfy that hunger
(15:30):
in all the wrong places, that's idolatry. But in God's
presence is fullness of joy. At his right hand are
pleasures that never end. They never lose their capacity to
enthrall the human heart. And it's when we posture ourselves
before God in humility and say, Lord, I got nothing. Uh,
you are everything. And if I've got you, then I've
(15:52):
got everything too. So show me your greatness. Reveal to
me in your word. Let me. Let me hear from
Scripture the magnificent things you've done, the depths of your character.
You know, Psalm 145. All the reasons why David would
break out in praise. And in that way, God is
honored and glorified when he is seen as the giver
(16:12):
and not the getter. And I know that runs counter
to what most people think. But God wants to. He's
a giving God. Um. He loves. He loves to give.
He loves to bless. And if we ever get to
the mindset that we think that we can serve him
by supplying a lack in him. You know, Paul says,
as though he needed anything. He's self-sufficient. He's altogether glorious.
(16:35):
And for us to think that, well. Well, let's sing
four verses of that hymn instead of three, because we
need to give God more glory. Now I want to
sing all the verses of that hymn, because it stokes
in me an awareness of and an understanding of how
great and gracious he is. And I and I feel
his presence. I enjoy his forgiveness of my sins. Um,
(16:56):
I revel in his love. I rest in knowing, secure
that he's never going to forsake me or leave me.
So it seems to me that we've kind of turned
worship upside down, and we've made it about what we
give God rather than what God gives us. And that's why,
you know the subtitle of the book about delighting in
him and feasting on him. That's how he's honored.
S1 (17:18):
And that's exactly why I said, friends, that this completely,
radically rewired my brain. I'm thinking about worship, and there's
a ton more. So we're going to continue. The book
is called Understanding Worship. By the way. The subtitle is
called Biblical Foundations for Delighting in and Feasting on God.
Exactly what Sam just said. But can I just tell you,
as someone who loves to read and loves to read
(17:39):
good theology from good sound Bible teachers, I don't think
there's a book that Sam's written that I wouldn't endorse,
but his understanding series is superb. It's like literally sitting
in a class, but it's not so academic. Every single
one of us can't just absolutely drink in everything he's teaching.
This book on worship is a perfect example of that.
More with Doctor Sam Storms on his newest book, Understanding Worship,
(17:59):
right after this. We are visiting with Doctor Sam Storms,
who's the founder of Enjoying God Ministries, in the executive
Director of the Convergent Church Network. He is a superb author.
Don't forget Sam Storms blogs constantly. That and a whole
(18:22):
lot more can be found at that website. But he's
also now got the newest edition in his understanding series.
This one deals with worship, understanding, worship, biblical foundations for,
delighting in, and feasting on God. And I'm going slow
on purpose, Sam. Because again, there's just so many layers here.
And when you're radically rewired now to think differently about
an important biblical subject, I don't want to rush this.
(18:44):
So you say Matthew 15 seven through nine is a
verse that is at one and the same time, the
most frightening statement in Scripture and the most encouraging. This
people honors me with their lips, but their heart is
far from me. In vain do they worship me, teaching
as doctrines the commandments of men. Why is it the
best and the worst at the same time?
S7 (19:06):
Oh, wow. Of course, Jesus starts out in the previous
verse by saying, you hypocrites!
S8 (19:10):
Yes.
S7 (19:10):
And and the idea that this people honors me with
their lips. So stop and think for a moment. How
many times have we gone into a, let's say, a
small group, a meeting in a home or in a
church service or in a conference with thousands of other Christians?
And we sing and we, you know, we we try
(19:31):
to stay on tune. We try to make everything articulate,
and we want to be sure that everything that we
sing is according to Scripture, which that's all good, that's
well and good, but we can do it, Jesus says sadly,
with a disconnected heart. In other words, we're just going
through the motions. We're just repeating the words excuse me.
(19:51):
And and there's no delight in God because of those words.
There's no joy in Christ because of what he's done
that we're singing about. So it scares me to think
that I could have all the best songs, you know,
on the top ten memorized, and I could I know
how to sing them. I can follow a tune. I
might even be able to lead worship. And yet my
(20:13):
heart be disconnected from God, my heart not be engaged
with him. Uh, that's terrifying. And that's why I always
have to check myself. Anytime I'm in worship. I mean,
I was I spent time driving today here in Oklahoma City,
and I had, uh, I was listening to the Brooklyn
Tabernacle Choir on the radio or on my in a podcast.
(20:34):
Absolutely glorious hymns. And I just, you know, I could
I have them all memorized from childhood. And then I
even stopped and said, is your heart engaged with that?
Or are you just saying words, or are you really?
You really mean what you say? Do you really delight
in God and thank him for all that he is
for you in Jesus? So that's why I think this
(20:56):
verse is so important. It tells us that worship is
not just having a good thoughts about God, although there
is no worship without them. Uh, but worship is also
the engagement of the heart, the affections, things like. I mean,
stop thinking about things like, uh, gratitude and yearning and
joy and gladness and gladness and delight and reverence and
(21:17):
admiration and love, fear, zeal, awestruck wonder, brokenness for sin,
all the all the affections of the heart, um, that
are necessary for our worship to be God honoring. And
by the way, one more thing I want to say, Janet,
because it kind of comes back to your first question.
What is the biggest mistake? I think one of the
biggest errors in the evangelical world, in our world, is
(21:39):
that people are afraid of the affections of the heart.
They're scared of of deep, heartfelt gratitude and joy, the
kind of joy that actually might lead you to tears,
or the kind of reverence that might lead you to
kneel in God's presence, or the gratitude that causes you
to just say thank you, thank you, thank you. The
admiration for God's majesty. Too many genuine born again believers
(22:04):
are scared of their affections because they're afraid of being
seen by others in public as really meaning what they're singing,
and really having an intense and sincere delight in God.
Because we've got this idea I want to project an image.
I want people to know that I'm solid theologically and
I'm not given to excessive emotion. And again, emotion is
(22:28):
probably not a real good word. I like the word affections,
but people are afraid of that. And I think God
is saying, look, I want your heart as well as
your mind and your lips. I want you to be
engaged with me in the depths of your soul. That
is what makes worship honoring to the Lord.
S1 (22:44):
I so agree, and I love the way there's a
kind of boldness in your saying what you just did
because you know so many times, and it's a pejorative
when you think about it. We get referred to as
the frozen chosen. And I think it's because hearken back
to first Samuel. Man looks on the outward appearance, but
God looks on the heart. We don't want to be
seen in a way that we think messages something that's
(23:05):
not true or right or is artificial. And let me,
let me go to that last part in particular, because
if worship is about really and truly just drinking in
the presence and the awe of God much more than
my bringing something to him. Let me talk about the
affect of what if you just don't feel like it?
It's it's praise and worship time and the Sunday morning
service and you just don't feel like it. You give
(23:27):
me the directive in the book to sing anyway? Talk
to me about that.
S7 (23:31):
Yeah. I think the first thing to do is to
confess that you don't feel anything. You need to come
to God and honestly say, Lord, I've got to be honest,
I'm pretty spiritually dry right now. I don't see anything
in you that awakens my heart. I'm bored with theology. Lord, I'm.
I'm joyless. I'm. I'm loveless. We have to acknowledge that
(23:51):
not having joy is sinful because we're told to rejoice
in the Lord always. So not to do so is
it's a bad thing. So I think we start out
with confession. Then the second thing is, I think we
need to pray. Lord, open my eyes. Remember the prayer
of Paul in Ephesians 117 and 18? Enlighten the eyes
(24:12):
of my heart. Spirit of God, give me insight into
who you really are. And then after that, after when
we've confessed that our we don't have joy, we don't
have those affections. We've prayed that God would show us
his greatness to inflame those affections. And then finally just
go ahead and sing anyway. Sometimes you got to sing
(24:32):
your way into joy as well as from joy. And
I don't think that's hypocritical because, you know, you really
want to experience it. You're not trying to put on
a show before people. You really want to feel those
affections for God. And I think he honors that.
S1 (24:46):
That is such a good word. When we come back,
we're going to couple two words together that I don't
think I've ever heard put together until I read Doctor
Sam Storm's book, Understanding Worship. Here's the two words. Think
about it. Christian hedonist. Chew on that back after this.
The Bible says the Word of God illuminates our walk
(25:07):
through life. It's a lamp to our feet and a
light to our path. Without it, we stumble and fall
in the market with Janet Parshall is designed to help
you look at the headlines of the day through the
lens of Scripture. When you become a partial partner, you
help to make this broadcast possible, and as a partial partner,
you'll receive exclusive benefits. So why not become a partial
partner today. Call 877 Janet 58 or go to in
(25:28):
the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Sam Storms,
who is the founder of Enjoying God Ministries and executive
director of the Convergence Church Network. Previously served as senior
pastor of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City and is a
former professor as well. Travels the US and abroad, speaks
at conferences and at churches, and is a wonderful author.
(25:50):
He's written over 35 books and he has several in
his understanding series. Let me just give you those titles again,
Understanding spiritual gifts, understanding Spiritual warfare, understanding prayer, and his
latest understanding. Worship biblical foundations for delighting in and feasting
on God. And every one of those books in that
(26:11):
understanding series is superb. So we're going slowly through this
understanding worship. We haven't even gotten through understanding prayer. That's
how rich the teaching is of Doctor Sam Storm. So
I said two words just before the break, Which, and
this is why I said earlier that Sam, you're writing
to me falls in the same category as Lewis. Lewis
is like going to a five course dinner where you
(26:31):
don't want to rush it, and you want to just
relish each course. So I do not rush through your
writing because I want to make sure I understand it.
And by the way, I'm so glad you quote Lewis
and Jonathan Edwards as much as you do through the book,
which is fabulous, and John Piper for that matter. But
in understanding worship, you do something bold and you talk
about your journey into the joy of worship. And I'm
(26:52):
so glad you did, because it's one thing to teach.
That's the ethos. But the pathos comes through loud and clear,
and you're talking about your personal journey and how you
changed in this area. But you hit me right between
the eyes with the coupling of two words Christian hedonist.
To me, that's like jumbo shrimp. It's like night and day.
I don't think hedonist at all ever gets categorized as
a good thing. This is like the super exaltation of
(27:14):
self self-centered self gratification. Self-exaltation how in the world that
ever couples with Christ, or Christian or Christ follower I
can't understand until it lips here. I read the chapter.
Then I began to understand. But as I was reading it,
I thought, oh Nelly, we're going to go slow through
this one because you really break this down. And it is.
It's Lucien in that it's very thick and rich, and
(27:36):
I want you to be able to teach this in
such a way that we understand that it's not an oxymoron,
that there really is a perfect reason why these two
words are coupled, and why you can proudly say you
are a Christian hedonist. So break this down for us.
S7 (27:48):
Yeah, I love the way you put it. Uh, I
it's like talking about fried ice.
S1 (27:54):
Yes.
S7 (27:55):
It's the Oklahoma State Fair. They've got everything. They've got
fried Twinkies and fried pickles. But, uh, those aren't necessarily
contradiction in terms. But, you know, my good friend John
Piper coined that phrase. And when asked why he used
the word hedonist, he said, that's such an offensive word. Yes.
He said he said, I did it to shock people
into thinking about it, because hedonism itself all alone is evil.
(28:19):
That's the idea that you do everything solely for the
pleasure that it brings you, no matter how it might
affect others. Uh, Christian hedonism is the joy that you
seek in God and all that he is for you
in Jesus. John always talks about God's greatest glory is
in our satisfaction in him. It's not in our satisfaction,
not in our joys, uh, that we might have, you know,
(28:42):
from eating our favorite foods. It's joy in him. He
is our greatest delight. He is our deepest joy. And
I think until I came to understand that, I don't
think I really knew what worship was or how to worship.
You know, I say oftentimes I knew what it meant
to fear God and what it meant to obey God,
(29:02):
but to enjoy God always struck me as a little flippant,
almost a little. You know, that's not taking Christianity really seriously, Sam,
until I realized that God is most glorified in me
when I'm most satisfied in him. I you know, the
first one I ever heard describe it this way was
Jonathan Edwards back in the 18th century. You know, Edwards
is a thoroughgoing Christian hedonist. And then, of course, C.S. Lewis.
(29:26):
Massively so. And his discussion of this in his little
book called reflections on the Psalms is just incredible. It
will it will rock your world. So Christian Hedonism is
simply saying that our greatest joy and delight, what we
must seek for, and long for, and pray for, is
(29:48):
to see and to savor all that God is for
us in His Son. That's where our joy is to
be found in him, not in worldly goods, not in, uh,
praise from other people, not in wealth, but the delight
that we have in who God is. That's what Christian
hedonism is all about.
S1 (30:08):
Yeah. So let me break this down a little bit.
And by the way, I you're enamored by Edward's writing,
and I think that's fabulous. And I'm so glad that
if you look at theologians of the past that what
they wrote still has profound relevance for where we are today.
So thank you for bringing it into the 21st century.
But you write that his point essentially in what you
just talked about is that and I'm going to quote you,
(30:28):
is that passionate, heartfelt enjoyment of God and not merely
acknowledgement or intellectual apprehension or apprehension is the aim of
our existence now. I've stopped because I underlined enjoyment of God,
which goes to the core of why you called your
ministry enjoying God. As I said as I read this.
It was like, oh, that's why he named it that.
But but if you say enjoyment of God and I'm
(30:51):
purposely doing this because, like it or not, the way
in which we convey ideas is words. And words can
sometimes be helpful, and sometimes they're cryptic and they're insufficient.
When you say enjoyment of God, I know that there
are some within this vast audience are going, oh, come on,
Doctor Storms, isn't that a little cavalier? I enjoy God,
like I enjoyed that meal or I enjoyed that movie.
It doesn't seem profound. It doesn't seem intimate. It doesn't
(31:13):
seem awe inspiring. It's. That's nice. I enjoy being with God.
Break that down for us, because there is a profundity,
that word that in our casual application, belies what it
means to have an enjoyment of God.
S7 (31:26):
Right. And Edwards is the one who. There's a quote
that I have in the book that where he unpacks this.
And his point is this, he said, understanding the attributes
of God or the the characteristics of God is not
sufficient to to glorify him in the way that he
wants to be honored, because he says, the person who
(31:46):
understands and and can define the attributes and can recite
the text of Scripture, but his heart isn't moved, is
not nearly as pleasing to God as the one who,
because of his understanding, has a heart set on fire,
where he he just rejoices and sings and celebrates and
loves and shares this God with those who don't know him.
(32:08):
So Edwards point is, and this is Lewis as well
as well as Piper, who I think is the best. Uh,
you know, proponent of both those men in the present world. Um,
is that it is when the thoughts in our mind,
the accurate ideas of who God is, when we read
Scripture and we understand doctrine and we memorize texts, those
(32:28):
thoughts about God that are great and glorious must inflame
the affections of our heart. Because if they don't, can
God be really honored just by intellectual apprehension? Well, in
a sense, I suppose he can. But the true reflection
of his greatness is when that intellectual apprehension causes me
(32:52):
to to. And people don't have to do this, but
I do to weep and to say, wow, Lord, you
are so incredible. You know, you, you fill my heart
with everything that I need. I don't need the praise
of men. I don't need a lot of money. I've
got you. I've got the beauty of Christ to enthrall me.
You know I've got the power of Christ to reassure
(33:14):
me I've got the blood of Christ to save me.
And that awakens these affections in the heart, which then
we give expression to in all manner of ways. Certainly singing.
But singing isn't the only way we worship, you know,
serving in children's ministry and pouring out the love of
God into those little kids is the way that we
(33:34):
show our delight in him and our honoring of him.
I told people in our church many times, I said,
you all think that singing these songs is the only
way you can worship God. I said, look back in
that booth, that sound man who's helping us do this
with amplification. He's worshiping God. Those workers in the nursery
who are changing diapers and serving those kids, they're worshiping God.
(33:56):
When you go outside of this building and you share
the gospel with people who don't know Jesus, that's worshiping God. Now,
most of us do think of it as primarily, not exclusively,
but primarily our glad corporate celebration of God in singing.
And of course, that's my favorite as well. but let's
not limit it to that. I know people often say
worship is all of life, and there's a there's a
(34:19):
truth in that. But also I think there are. Um,
there's a hierarchy of what constitutes the highest expressions of
worship in Scripture. You know, and we find we find
so many expressions of it. Fasting. You know, I say
that fasting is feasting. You fast from food to in
order to feast on God, to to taste more of him,
to enjoy more of him, to focus single minded, without
(34:42):
any distraction of what am I going to have for
lunch today? Um, so all of these things are expressions
of worship, but it begins in the mind. If we
don't have right thoughts about God, our worship is going
to be idolatry. We have to understand who he is.
We have to see the truths as revealed in Scripture.
This is what Jesus meant when he said that those
(35:02):
who worship in spirit and truth are pleasing to God.
Truth has to be the foundation. But it doesn't stop there.
It goes on to, uh, the area of the spirit
where it's not just traditionalism or a liturgy, although those
things are wonderful if they're approached properly. But it's the
spirit within us, stirred by the Holy Spirit Himself to
(35:23):
take deep delight in what we know God to be.
Which then we to which we give expression in a
variety of ways maybe singing, maybe kneeling and maybe dancing,
maybe raising of hands, and maybe in weeping it may
in all manner of of expressions. So that's what I
have in mind when I talk about really Christian hedonism
as the foundation for biblical worship.
S1 (35:44):
Hence the subtitle Biblical Foundations for Delighting in and Feasting
on God. You said two things I want to extrapolate out.
One was even crying there, and I was thinking about
this in application as I was reading the book. There
are times when in just the singing part of worship,
and that's my second question, is that worship is so
much more than singing. But in the singing part of worship,
(36:04):
I can't even get through a verse because the words
are so profound. What what's coming out of my mouth
in singing that praise and worship song is the recognition
of what Christ did for me. Breaks the seal, sets
the captive free. My firm foundation, tender mercies. Great is
his faithfulness. All of those lines out of the hymns.
(36:25):
And sometimes I just can't finish singing the song because
I'm overwhelmed by what that means. That after reading your book,
I thought I never thought of it in those terms.
But that's actually that's worship. That's delighting myself in feasting
on him. And I'm going to ask you about worship
in this expansive word a little bit more when we
get back understanding, worship, biblical foundations for, delighting in, and
(36:46):
feasting on God. The latest book by Doctor Sam Storms
and it is yet again superb back after this. Doctor
Sam Storms is with us and he is a prolific author.
His latest is called Understanding Worship Biblical Foundations for delighting
(37:07):
in and feasting on God. Let me give you his
website again. Sam storms doesn't get easier than that. Sam storms.org.
He blogs all the time regularly there. So I want
you to go and just read what he writes. But
also it's a treasure trove of all kinds of great stuff.
Past sermons, articles he's written, past blogs. So check it out.
It's just chock full of information. But going back to
(37:28):
the subject at hand, Sam, you know that I'm just
working my way at an ants pace through this because
there's so much. In fact, let me tell my friends
the way you broke the book down because it was fabulous.
Part one is Worship and Why the World Exists. Part
two is scenes of worship in the Old Testament. Part
three is scenes of worship in the New Testament. And
the last part is how charismatics worship. That's fascinating. Get
(37:48):
into the house and all of those pragmatic aspects later
on in the book. But I want to sort of
tackle the esoteric part of this conversation first, because I
think you got to just build the framework. So you
said something that I hardly agree with, and that is
we get so linear in our thinking. Sometimes as believers,
we just put ourselves in our own self-constructed boxes, like
the idea that worship is and singularly relegated to the
(38:10):
idea of singing, as you said before. It's definitely a
part of it. It is like mine, the favorite part
of it. But it is not the singular definer of worship.
If it's about delighting ourselves in being in his presence,
I could be a senior citizen who has mobility problems
and be writing letters of encouragement to friends at my
kitchen table and be worshiping God, could I not?
S7 (38:31):
Yes, and I'm so glad you brought that up, because
I was going to bring this, this part of the
book up because I think it's my favorite part of
the book. It's entitled I Saw Johnny Dance.
S1 (38:42):
Yes.
S7 (38:43):
For people who don't know Johnny Erickson. Tada! You need
to know her. You need to read her books. She's
one of the most incredible Christians I've ever met. When
she was 17, she threw a diving accident and became
a quadriplegic. She's been paralyzed from the neck down. She's,
I think, 75 years old now. For all these years,
she's lived in a wheelchair. And I was at a conference,
(39:07):
I think it was back in about 2005 or 6
in Minneapolis. And Johnny was the main speaker. And after
she spoke, then the worship began. The, you know, the
band began to play. And I could see Johnny over
at the side. Not everybody could see her, but I
could see her over on the side, kind of behind
the curtain. And in that wheelchair, according to the rhythm
(39:29):
of the music, you could see the delight in her eyes,
and she would thrust forward and then backward to the
left and to the right, and then she would even
do a full 360 spin in a circle in that wheelchair.
And I thought to myself, that's worship. That's Johnny who
can't move anything really below the neck. She can flail
her arms. Uh, but but that's about it. She can
(39:52):
paint because she grips a paintbrush between her teeth, and
her artwork is exquisite. But I thought, now I wish
everybody out here would look and see this paralyzed Woman
worshiping the Lord in the only way that she can.
And then I thought to myself, and I look out
on the crowd, and I saw about 2000 vertical cadavers,
(40:12):
just stiff as a board, unmoved, who really hadn't caught
the glimpse of the greatness of a God who is
so glorious and so majestic that he could inspire a
quadriplegic to react that way. And that has that has
stirred me, I think, more in my understanding of worship
than anything I've ever seen. Um, so it it. Yeah.
(40:34):
And I don't even know what your question was again.
I got off track on that, but.
S1 (40:38):
It was about the expansive definition of worship being so
much more.
S7 (40:42):
Exactly. Um, we need to we need to understand that
the totality of our lives, um, is to proclaim the
excellencies of God in everything that we do. That's why
Paul says, whether you eat or drink, do all to
the glory of God. You know, in, uh, in first
Peter chapter two, he really gives us, uh, the, the
(41:02):
kind of the explanation for why we all exist. He said,
you have become. I'm going to try to get there
real fast here. There it is. First Peter two, um,
where Peter says you're a chosen race, a royal priesthood,
a holy nation, a people for his own possession. Why?
Why did God do that? That you may proclaim the
(41:25):
excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into
his marvelous light. Proclaiming the excellencies of God. And you
don't just do it with your mouth. You do it
like Johnny did in a wheelchair. And she definitely moved
around on that platform as an expression of her love
and gratitude to the Lord. We proclaim his excellencies by
(41:45):
our obedience, by our holiness of life, by our sharing
our faith, by our loving our families, by providing for
the poor and the homeless and the needy. All of
that is designed to make known the excellencies, the attributes,
the perfections of who God is. That's why I, I
ask in the book. Um. I know why you exist.
(42:06):
Do you?
S9 (42:07):
Yes, yes, yes.
S7 (42:08):
I know why you exist. You exist to proclaim the
excellencies of God. And it can be done in, you know,
going across the street and mowing your neighbor's grass because
they can't get out of bed because of some illness.
And it means writing out a check to a person
who can't make the mortgage payment because they've fallen on
hard times financially. You're doing this as a way of saying, look,
(42:31):
I'm doing this because I know all that Jesus did
for me, and how can I not extend his love
and grace to you in your moment of need? So yeah,
worship is a is a massive concept. And, uh, it
just it's so critical that we as Christians come alive
to this because I think a lot of Christians go
through their whole lives without really understanding what it means
(42:52):
to enjoy God. By the way, Janet, you've been plugging
my blog. Um, I posted an article on Monday on
my blog entitled Enjoying God. It was featured on the, uh,
the front page of the Gospel Coalition. So people say,
I don't think I know what you mean by enjoying God.
I don't think I know how to do that. Well,
just go to sandstorms.org and you'll see that lead article
(43:14):
there entitled Enjoying God. And I try to unpack it
for you.
S1 (43:18):
Yeah. And you do a beautiful job. A couple of
things in the time this hour has gone so fast,
I knew it would. And thank you, Lord, for directing
me not to try to do too much in this
conversation because there is so much in the book you
say this. We must never forget that the ultimate purpose
of theology isn't knowledge, it's worship. We learn to Lord. Now,
I found that to be profound, coming from a man
(43:38):
who's very intellectual when it comes to understanding the scriptures
and teaches with a depth of understanding of the scriptures
as well. But it isn't about head knowledge, it's about worship.
Talk to me in about 45 seconds. These this interconnection
between I have the head knowledge of God, but ultimately
this is about the heart knowledge of God.
S7 (43:58):
Exactly. Um, there is a purpose for our study, for
our reading good books, and for our reading scripture. It
increases our understanding of who God is. But if it
stops there, we will be lifeless, hypocritical, arrogant, pompous jerks
priding ourselves in knowing more about God than others do,
when in fact the whole purpose of understanding is to
(44:21):
light a fire in the depths of our soul of joy, love, gratitude,
and delight in who God is. So never read a book.
Never learn study theology without knowing what the reason ultimately
is for that exercise.
S1 (44:34):
What a note to end on exclamation point now! Thank
you so much, Doctor Storms for the book for the
gift of your time. And thank you for creating for
me a delicious challenge, which is the next time we
get together. I don't know if we'll do tough topics.
I don't know if we'll do penal substitutionary atonement. I
don't know if we'll do worship. I don't know if
we'll do prayer. Thank you for being such an excellent
writer and giving us so much to take in. Blessings
(44:56):
to you, friends. See you next time.