April 19, 2025 • 45 mins
This hour we open the phone lines so that you can ask any question you have on the topic of spiritual warfare. We will tackle questions like: Can demons read our minds? Is a crucifix needed for an exorcism? Does casting out a demon require a professional exorcist? Learn to separate biblical Truth from Hollywood’s made-up ‘theology’ on the very real subject of spiritual warfare.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friends, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and it is my sincere hope that you'll hear something
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and then gently but consistently push you out into the
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shine before men and go and tell them the good news.
Before you listen to this podcast, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Jesus Book,
(00:20):
written by pastor Jack Graham. I love it because he
really does recognize the fact that biblical literacy is declining,
and that a lot of people think that the Bible
is too complicated, that it's written for pastors or for scholars.
And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
And that book was written for every single one of us.
We just need a better way to know how to
study God's Word. And that's exactly what the Jesus Book
(00:42):
is all about. So when you give a gift of
any amount this month, I'm going to give you a
copy of The Jesus Book by doctor Jack Graham. Just
call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or give
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(01:04):
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give one time or you want to support the program
every single month, just call 877 Janet 58 or online
at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the
bottom of the page. Thanks so much for letting me
take a moment of your time. And now please enjoy
the broadcast. Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall and I
(01:30):
want to welcome you to the best of in the market.
Today's program is pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open.
But I do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of the
Best of In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S2 (01:48):
Put on the full armor of God. Put on the
full armor of God. So that you may be able
to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. Put
(02:12):
on the full armor of God.
S1 (02:15):
Well, that's a pretty good clue what we're going to
talk about this hour. Hello, friends. Welcome to In the
Market with Janet Parshall. Get your dialing fingers ready, because
Doctor Karl Pain is in the house, and the topic
on the table is spiritual warfare. You're going to need this. 87754836758775483675.
(02:36):
That's our number here on in the market with Janet Parshall.
Questions only. But any question you've got on the topic
of spiritual warfare. Are you paying attention. By the way,
if you listen to this program with any regularity, you
know that I keep talking with Doctor Karl Pain on
this topic because the phones keep ringing, because people have
an inherent interest in this. By the way, you can
(02:57):
discuss among yourselves whether that interest is a good or
a bad thing. I guess the good thing you could
extrapolate out of this is if there's evil in the world,
it necessary necessarily demands. There has to be good in
the world. And that's certainly a starting place for someone
who says, I don't believe in God. So if there's evil,
you realize the counterbalance has to be that there is
good out there. But the problem is twofold. Number one,
(03:20):
it creates a prurient interest. If I can use that
phrase in the occult, in darkness. And Scripture is real
clear on this. It's like a big red stop sign
have nothing to do with it. You don't have to
be a Dallas Theological Seminary grad to figure that one out.
It says stay away from it, have nothing to do
with it. And every time there was a dabbling in
the occult in scriptures, somebody paid a price. It never, ever,
(03:43):
ever turned out good. And yet here's the other part
of this discussion, and that is that there is a
battle going on in the heavenlies that you and I
cannot see. It is real. It is absolute. How do
I know it? Because every word in those 66 books
is inerrant, transcendent, immutable, God breathed. And that word tells
us there is a war we cannot see. And I
(04:05):
will tell you in full disclosure, as a sister in
the Lord, I'm real glad I can't see it. Sometimes
I think I just might pass out, but then I'm
reminded greater is he that is in me than he
that is in the world. So it is a reality.
And if, as the Bible also teaches us that our
battle is against the world, the flesh and the devil,
you want to know how the devil plays? Not that
he's going to win if you don't give him ground,
(04:27):
but I want to know exactly what the tools are
in his very limited toolbox, so that I know how
to counter man his attacks, assaults, and demonization that he does.
To use one of Carl's words. Well, the Bible also
gives us a hint. Don't you love the way the
Bible never leaves you in the dark? That's why it
is an illuminating book, a lamp unto my feet and
(04:49):
a light unto my path. And it tells us the
exact equipment we put on to engage in this warfare.
And he reminds us again, there is no parity between
God and Satan. Satan is a fallen creature. Pride led
a rebellion. He takes a third of the angels with
him and the rest is human history. So that's why
we continue this conversation, so that you cannot let the
(05:10):
world teach you theology so that you aren't filled with fear,
so that you aren't drawn with pure int interest to
that which we're to have nothing to do with. But
by the same token, you grow up, get up and
suit up in recognizing that this war is absolutely real.
So questions only (877) 548-3675. Let me just start by saying,
(05:31):
I think that Carol's written one of the best books
out there. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance.
And I know many of you have purchased this book,
and in all honesty, I hope many more of you
purchase it as well. It has been repeatedly, repeatedly reprinted,
and there's even an update on information that's been added
to it. And this is something that Doctor Carl Payne,
(05:53):
I'm sure when he started out studying the Word of God,
never thought that this was an area of ministry that
God would call him into. And you know, one of
the things, and if you've listened, can I get an
amen on this? If you've listened with any regularity. He
doesn't sensationalize any of this stuff. In fact, he's very
tepid sometimes when he describes the situations where he's had
encounters with demons. And trust me, this man has had
(06:13):
those kinds of encounters. But he's so relaxed, and I
think it's a confidence that he exudes because of the
power of Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy
Spirit in his life. So he's the perfect teacher for this.
He doesn't sensationalize. He doesn't tell you about worrying about
the boogeyman behind every rock. He just acknowledges the fact
that it's a reality and what we need to understand
(06:34):
based on the Word of God. Carl is a pastor,
a teacher, a speaker and author, and former NFL chaplain
for the Seattle Seahawks. He's on staff right now at
Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington, and his primary role
there is serving as the pastor of leadership development and
discipleship training. And we just love him to pieces and
we're so glad he comes. 87754836758775483675. Any question you have
(07:01):
on spiritual warfare? So Kyle, I was thinking about this.
There's so many things I want to ask you. And
then then I always bow in deference, appropriately to our
listeners who come and ask their questions. But I, too
have a bushel basket full of questions on a regular basis.
So let me just start out because of the work
that God has called you to in this particular area.
What is it about the rebellion in heaven that we
(07:23):
don't understand? I mean, just that whole idea of demons,
because I think there are people who think, well, if
the demons got thrown into the swine and the story
that we read in the gospel, does that mean those
demons were eliminated once and for all, or do they
keep coming back until ultimately, they're all annihilated in the
lake of fire? Clearly, if it was if if the
angels were made and a third of them are part
(07:44):
of this rebellion, I know that there are no new
demons that are being created. I just want to know
how we get rid of the ones that we've got.
So that's maybe a good place to start. What happens
to them? I mean, and I'll go back to the
gospel story when Jesus said, and they cry out, don't
put us in the swine. He puts them in. They
jump over the cliff. Were they annihilated? Are they gone
or do they just get back and play for the
(08:05):
same team again?
S3 (08:06):
Well, first, good afternoon, young lady. I thank you to
tell you that. There you go. Wouldn't be right or
fitting if we didn't touch bases there first. But good questions.
And if I miss any of that, please come back
at me, because it certainly won't be purposeful. Um, I
(08:27):
think that the, uh, final home of, uh, the demons
are going to be the final home of, uh, Satan
and the Antichrist and his false prophet and all those
who followed them. Uh, according to revelation 21. And I
think it's verse eight, I think I think revelation 2010
talks about it too. So I think that's going to
(08:49):
be the ultimate home, but I don't think that's where
they're going immediately, and I'll hear the music. So I'll
finish this up on the backside.
S1 (08:56):
Such a pro. This is why I loved working with you. Okay,
so there's more to the answer to that question. Doctor
Calpain is with us for the entire hour. Spiritual warfare
is our topic and the number you need. 87754836758775483675. Back
after this.
S4 (09:16):
The author. Of God.
S2 (09:21):
The armor of God.
S1 (09:31):
Ever feel intimidated by the Bible, unsure where to begin
or how it all fits together? Well, you're not alone.
That's why I've chosen The Jesus Book by Doctor Jack
Graham as this month's truth tool. Learn to unlock the
timeless wisdom of God's Word. As for your copy of
the Jesus Book, when you give a gift of any
amount in the market, call eight 7758. That's eight Janet, 58,
(09:52):
or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
Doctor Carl Payne is our guest. He's the author of
Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance. He's also on staff
at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington. And I had
asked the questions about using the gospel story of Jesus
(10:13):
driving the demons into the pigs. What happens? Are they annihilated?
Are they done? And Carl started to give the first
part of his answer. That said, ultimately, the final home
of the demons is where we read about it in
the book of revelation. But you said and there was
an important ellipse there, dot, dot, dot. Let's pick it
up from that point, but not immediately. So what happens?
S3 (10:33):
Yeah. Um, now, first I'm going to say if someone
chooses to disagree with me on this, don't lose a
friend over it. I can tell you what I believe.
You know, from my looking at Scripture, and I believe
it's accurate. I wouldn't share it. But if somebody said,
could there be things about final destinations and all that?
(10:54):
I am not understanding. Of course that's always possible. I hope,
you know, hopefully I'm careful. But here's how I would
answer that. First of the immediate question, you know, out
of the out of the gadarene and the Matthew eight
and going into the pigs. I don't know if Jesus
told them, you know, again, arguing from silence is always
(11:16):
a tough one. So I don't know if he told them, uh,
you know, I'll give you your your petition this time
and you'll die with the pigs. If they weren't designated
to go, uh, to, you know, to the pit or
the abyss, which you see in Luke 831 and see
(11:37):
if I can tie this together when Jesus is approached
in Luke eight. And that's the same, you know, Luke eight,
Matthew eight, uh, dealing with the gadarenes they are not happy.
They're saying, you know, if you come to bother us soon,
you know. We don't want to go to this place. And,
you know, are we going to have to go there early?
And it's it's referred to as the abyss or the pit.
(11:59):
I think they're one and the same thing. What do
I know about it? Well, I know from, from 831
that it's going to be where demons are going to
be going, at least temporarily. And what do I mean
by that? I would say, Janet, that their final home
again is in the lake of Fire. Uh, but I
think that, uh, and that's again the revelation, uh, 2010
(12:21):
or the 21 verse eight, but I think that there's
a place that they're, uh, going to be going before
then and now this is if I'm guessing. But, you know,
in revelation chapter 20, verses one through three, and in
revelation chapter nine, verse two, both of them talk about
a the pit. They use the same language. And we're
(12:44):
told that Satan is going to be tossed there in
revelation 20 and held on a chain for a thousand
years during the Millennial Kingdom and then released for a
bit of time. Well, clearly that's not his final home.
His final home is going to be that lake of
fire that later in the chapter says that he and
the and the Antichrist and the false prophet and all
(13:05):
those that followed him, that's going to be their final home.
Just like our final home as believers is going to
be in a new heaven and a new earth with
the Lord Jesus, uh, ruling and reigning. So if someone says,
what's this other place? I'm saying, well, it seems to
be a place they don't want to go. It's a
lot of torment. Uh, they clearly were petitioning. Jesus. Don't
(13:27):
make us go there early. But it's not the final home.
So I believe that's why when people, you know, if
they'll say, uh, hell, Hades, pit, abyss or interchangeable, I'd say, no. No,
I think, uh, Hades and hell are a temporary holding pen.
I think that, uh, the, you know, the, uh. Um,
(13:49):
I'm going to get confusing, but here's what I'm here
in Luke chapter 16. See if I can pull this
all together. We're told a story that I don't believe
was just a parable. There was a man named Lazarus.
It doesn't say there might be. Or I'm going to
give you an allegory. And when he died, that whole story,
(14:10):
starting in about verse 20, what we're told is that
the rich man was in a place of torment. Lazarus
was in a good place, but they were conscious of
each other. They could see each other. So whatever that was,
I've just called that a holding pit. And I have said,
apparently it's a temporary place that, uh, uh, you know,
(14:32):
both and especially with the Old Testament saints work. That's
why I called it a holding place. One pleasant one naught.
But they were conscious of each other, and the rich
man is saying, then please send somebody back from the dead,
because I don't want my brothers to come to this
horrible place. Well, I see that where human beings are
stashed temporary. But I see the the holding pen, if
(14:55):
you would the temporary for the demonic, the supernatural being
this thing called the pit or or the abyss. And
we're told that it's the same place, I believe, where
Satan is going to be stashed for that thousand years
in revelation 21 through six and exits one through three
and the same place, same language used in revelation nine,
(15:17):
which is told it's horrible. It's a place of torment.
But it doesn't say that. It's it's, uh, it's humans
and demons. It says this is a place for the supernatural.
So I think you got a temporary holding pit for people. Uh,
in revelation in Luke six, they're still conscious of each other.
(15:38):
I think that the, uh. And I think that the abyss.
Excuse me. I think that the abyss and the pit
talked about was something particularly, uh, painful, even more so
than the other. And that seems to be where the
supernatural entities go. Is it the final resting place for
(15:58):
either one? And I'm suggesting no. The final resting place,
according to revelation 2010 and 21 eight is going to be,
you know, the lake of fire burning forever. And and
it says that there will be the combining of, of Satan,
the Antichrist, his false prophet, all that followed him. They're
(16:20):
going to end up in that final place, just like
we are going to end up not in a place
of Abraham's bosom or a place where, you know, we're
being held temporarily, but we're going to end up being
in a new heaven and a new earth. I don't
think those demons were, I don't know, did he put
them there, or did he just say, you're going to
(16:41):
get a free run and you'll bother people later? I
hope he put them where they were stashed. But if
he didn't, then yes, they were recycled until they finally
go to that pit area.
S1 (16:52):
Wow, what a fascinating answer, Carl. Thank you for. I'm
so glad I asked that question. Thank you. Now, when
we come back, you ask the question, is this point
going forward? 8775483675A bunch of questions online already. (877) 548-3675. Doctor
Carl Payne is our guest. Our topic is spiritual warfare
(17:12):
and we're taking your questions back after this. (877) 548-3675. Doctor
Carl Payne is our guest. And we're taking your questions
(17:35):
on spiritual warfare. Laura in Illinois, thank you for being
with us. We'll take your question, please.
S5 (17:41):
Okay. My question is, how do you know if you
have been cursed And can you be delivered from a curse?
S3 (17:49):
Um. Good question. And, uh, I would say that that
is the second part for sure. In other words, if
you're talking about if it's demonic, if it's real, you're
still talking about entities that are involved in that, that
are underneath the delegated authority of Christ. Ultimately, since Christ
(18:11):
is creator, it means anything, and everything is part of
the creation. So whether you're talking about human beings that
are being nasty or demonic, spirits that are being nasty,
if there's something that has really landed and it's really real,
you're still talking about things that are finite, not things eternal.
(18:31):
And we're told in Luke ten that we have been
delegated authority from the creator that is greater than any
of the authority that's been given to his creation. That's
why we're told we've been given authority to tread on.
It I mean, it's just step on, tread upon the serpents. Scorpions.
I've given you authority over the serpents. Scorpions over all
the power of the enemy. They shall in no wise
harm you. Nevertheless do not rejoice, because the spirits are
(18:54):
subject to you. Rejoice because your names are recorded in heaven.
So I have suggested our joy is in looking up,
not looking down. And it's the joy is in delegated authority,
we're told, is given to all whose names are recorded
in heaven. And as I've said before, no one's going
to be in heaven whose name wasn't recorded in heaven. Uh,
there'll be that's believers, you know, there. But, uh, I
(19:16):
have authority that says whatever the attacks are when they're
coming from losers, I do not have to see myself
as a loser and run, I'm told. Uh, we've talked
about it again. We've talked about James four. First Peter five.
I'm to resist, don't I? State it means I stand against.
I remain against you, I fight, I don't run. So
(19:37):
is it possible for those things, if they're real, that
have landed to to for them to be removed. Yes
it is. That's that's not an issue. The second part
of it, I again I see sometimes this is just
part of a game that people play and there is
no reality to it. And so I'm not saying that's
true for all, but I'm saying sometimes I think if
(19:58):
someone says, I think I've been cursed, how if how
would I understand that? I would say, you're going to
ultimately end up running into the same type of things.
When we talk about people that are demonized and I
won't say always, sometimes it's physical, but some but most
of the time it's a mental beating and the beating
is you're a loser, you're no good. God doesn't love you.
(20:20):
It's never going to change. Kill yourself. Everything you touch
turns to dirt. Everything someone else touches turns to gold.
If God really loved you, why would he allow you
to go through this, etc. so if someone says is
it really real? I would say, well, if I'm living
in a in a constant world of of the accusation
and beat down, whether that's come from me opening doors.
(20:43):
Whether that's come from ancestral issues, whether that's come from curses,
from someone that actually knows what they're doing, I can
be real, but none of it is. It can't be touched.
It can't be dealt with. You're on the side if
you're a believer. I don't know you. But if you're
a believer in Christ lives in you. You're on the
side that is identified as Victor. Everything else, ultimately is
(21:04):
going to be identified as victim. So I'm saying I
learn how to stand on what is mine. I learn
how to not play games with evil for certain. But
I also don't run from it. I don't have to.
S1 (21:16):
Mm. Laura. Thank you. Appreciate so much for being with us.
That opens Laura's line, by the way. Now. 8775483. 675.
Laura in Georgia, thank you for joining us. Your question please.
S6 (21:29):
Well, hello. It's also in Luke ten. And I heard
a sermon recently. The pastor said, I don't believe Jesus
actually saw Satan fall like lightning. So in Luke 1018. Yeah.
Did Jesus really see Satan fall like lightning?
S3 (21:49):
Well, here's where I would go. And I mean this
with all due respect to your pastor. But if Jesus
said he saw him fall from heaven like lightning. And
if Jesus always tells the truth because he was truth incarnated,
Titus one two says, it's impossible for God to lie.
Jesus claimed to be God. He claimed to be the truth,
not a truth. That's a that's an absolute statement. I
(22:12):
would be inclined to say, I'm going to believe what
Jesus said and accept that as truth, rather than an
opinion of someone who would suggest that Jesus wasn't telling
the truth. So that one wouldn't be a real hard
call for me. But if he's your pastor, I'm sure
you respect him. And I'm not suggesting be rude, but
any time. I don't care if it's that. If someone
(22:33):
tells me all educated people believe that the world and
life evolved. Uh, you know that nothing is the ultimate
resource for everything. And if my pastor know it all
says that's absolutely true because I don't want to be
in trouble with my colleagues. And most people believe, uh,
you know, in Neo-darwinism I would say, brother, as long
(22:55):
as God tells me he created, uh, I'm going to
I'm going to roll with with God did what he
said he did. He will do what he said he
will do. And there's probably things all of us are
going to learn in the process along the way. But, uh,
people that think, you know, I can deconstruct, they call
it that's the fancy word, make the Bible say what
(23:16):
I want it to say. I'm saying you can do that,
but not if you're saying I want to study in context.
So if your pastor is taking on Jesus over what
is true and what isn't, I'm running with Jesus.
S1 (23:29):
Thank you, Kyle, for the answer. And Laura, thank you
so much for being a part of the conversation. (877) 548-3675.
Let me remind you again that Carol's book is called
spiritual warfare. Christians demonization and deliverance. And if this is
a subject that you want to dig deep into, this
is a book you should read. Just go to in
the Market with Janet Parshall or click on the red box.
(23:53):
It's just below the program description and it'll say Program
Details and audio. Click that on takes you to our
information page. There's a longer bio bio for Doctor Payne.
There's a link to his website. And on the right
hand side there's the link to his book. Click on
through and you can get your own copy. When we
come back, more of your questions at (877) 548-3675. Tired of
(24:28):
the endless, biased spin you hear on mainstream media and
in the market, we're using God's Word as our guide
as we examine today's events, and we want you to
be informed and bold about his truth. This is a
listener supported program, so if you value what you hear
and you want us to continue on your station, become
a partial partner with your monthly support, call eight 7758.
That's eight 7758 or go online to in the market
(24:50):
with Janet Parshall. Doctor Karl Pain is our guest pastor, teacher, speaker,
author on staff at the Antioch Bible Church of Redmond, Washington.
His primary role there is serving as the pastor of
Leadership Development and Discipleship Training. He's written a superb book
on the topic. It is entitled Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization
(25:13):
and Deliverance. Our number here and we're taking your questions
on spiritual warfare is (877) 548-3675. That's (877) 548-3675. Maggie, you are
in Florida. I thank you so for your patience and
your question, please.
S7 (25:30):
Yay! Um, I have a niece. A grand niece that's
nine year old daughter has, uh, above and beyond. I mean,
she's tried to set the house on fire. She is, uh,
tried to hurt her sister. She. Ever since she was born.
And my question is, and they don't go to church,
(25:52):
but I think both the parents, um, love Jesus. Uh,
my question is, can you be born with a demon?
And if there's anything you can give me to help
me with my grandniece.
S3 (26:08):
That's a tough that's a tough situation to be in. Uh,
the first the first question is ancestral sin. Generational sin.
Still alive and well today. Uh, the answer to that
is yes. I deal with it regularly. Uh, I see
it more often now than I used to. And I'll
(26:30):
give you my best, best guess on it. I think
it's because so many of the people that I deal
with now are either the children or the grandchildren of
my generation and my generation in the late 60s and
early 70s is the one that made up, you know,
the more. More sex you have, the better marriage partner
(26:51):
you'll be. Well, that was a brilliant statement. The more
drugs you take, you know, Timothy Leary, the smarter you
will be. He got that one right. Mhm. You know
that God is dead. You know, Zen was in, uh,
transcendental meditation, new age. ET cetera. I think that there
were people in my generation that expedited through a lot
(27:13):
of that, uh, what I see now with their children
and their grandchildren. So I don't know if that's right
or wrong. That's just my best guess on it. But
I know that when I first started working with this
back in the 80s, I would occasionally run into generational issues, uh,
where demons held the topos the place, space, or territory
through generational sin. I now see it regularly, so that'd
(27:36):
that would be the first. Second, if the parents are
are both Christians, they're going to have more ability to
do anything than you or, uh, a as an aunt
or a great aunt or whatever that was, simply because
demons recognize parents as the ones holding authority over small children.
(27:57):
They see them as entrusted to and under the charge of.
I've said I don't mean this cynically, but I think
demons hold a higher regard over a parent's authority, uh,
from God's perspective. And I think they agree with it. Uh,
then many, many human beings in our culture do. So
I have many times thought, uh, when there were trouble
(28:18):
with children, uh, young, sometimes nine. I've seen that go
both ways. If a if a child is old enough
to know what they're doing, then demons will say, uh,
they're the ones that are going to have to confess
this because they're the ones who opened the doors to it.
If they're much younger than that, I have seen parents
(28:40):
pray over children where things were just really odd and
just correlate stopped and I say, well, welcome to spiritual
warfare and welcome to generational sin. So I would say
it depends upon the not the, the physical age, the
chronological age, but the cognitive understanding, you know, where was
there a magic age? Not that I know of, uh,
(29:03):
parents have a tremendous influence over their children. Yes. Do
demons recognize that? Yes, they do, because God recognizes that
even if culture doesn't, what can you. My encouragement to
you would be praying that if she is, if that's
really going on, that those parents would become dialed in
enough that they would say, you know what? We want
to see our child get helped. I would pray offensively, Janet,
(29:26):
I have talked about that, that if there are demonic
entities that are bothering that nine year old Lord, would
you start tormenting the ones tormenting that nine year old,
would you undermine the ones trying to undermine? So I
would go after that with prayer and ask an omniscient
God to start making entities that are picking on kids
to pay for their job. But it sounds to me
(29:47):
like you didn't sound real strong on where the parents were.
At least that's how I kind of heard it. I
would be praying, God, dial them in. Have them get
a hold of a Bubeck book, or a Dickerson book,
or a Marcus Warner book, something that you know is
clear and easy to understand and find out, you know,
what can we do as parents to stick up for
(30:09):
our children instead of them just hanging out there?
S1 (30:11):
Yeah. Amen, Maggie. Thank you. So appreciate you being a
part of the conversation. Deborah, I welcome you from Illinois.
Your question for Doctor Carl Payne, please.
S8 (30:20):
Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Will we see people
in hell? And what made me think of it is
Isaiah 66 verse 24, talking about the new heaven and
the new earth, and then revelation 1411 where it says,
we're looking at people who have accepted the mark of
(30:42):
the beast. So are we going to see people in hell?
S3 (30:49):
Well, I'm not going to see anybody in hell because
I'm not going to be there. And if you're a Christian,
you're not going to be there either. But I will
still say kind of where we started earlier. Revelation 21
seven and eight really helps me understand. The final spot
for believers is a new heaven and a new earth.
Verse eight, the final spot for all unbelievers, and we've
(31:12):
already been told it will contain in chapter 20, verse ten, Satan,
his anti-Christ, his false prophet. They're going to be there.
It's a place of eternal lake of torment. We're also
told in 21 eight that all unbelievers, those that didn't
follow Christ, are going to be there with them. That's
going to be their final holding place. I believe there's
(31:32):
going to be a huge divide between believer and unbeliever.
So no, I don't think you're going to be seeing
people in hell. I suppose if you're not a believer
and you end up in hell, are you going to
be able to to see them? I've always been told
it's going to be a place of isolation, but that
is what I've heard. I don't know whether people will
be able to high five each other in hell and say,
(31:53):
how do we ever get here? Well, I was dumb
enough to ignore Jesus, I suppose, but I just don't
think there's going to be much there that allows for
fellowship or contentment or any kind of help. I think
it is going to be torment. Torment. Torment. Torment. So
I don't suspect we would be seeing people in hell
even if we're there. I think there's going to be isolation.
(32:15):
If you're a believer, I don't think you're going to
be anywhere near hell. You're going to be in a
new heaven and a new earth.
S1 (32:21):
Thanks, Deborah. Appreciate you being here. Donna, let me turn
to you next, if I can, please, in Alaska. Welcome.
And your question, please.
S9 (32:29):
Thank you for taking my call. Um, there's a young
adult in our congregation with congenital mental issues. I don't
know the diagnosis. This person has learned that a way
to get attention is to repeatedly say they hear voices.
So how do we separate mental handicap from possible demonic work?
S3 (32:53):
Great question. I get that one from counselors at conferences
all over the country. Uh, and I mean, usually counselors
that are willing to be there now because they're saying,
I've had I've had counselors, therapists, uh, clinical psychologists, etc.
tell me, you know what? We know how to deal
with physiological issues. We know how to deal with mental issues.
We're trained to do that. But there's a third issue
(33:14):
that's real, and we're just not trained to deal with it.
But it's real. And so to say that it can't
be confusing at times, I think it can be. I
think things can overlap between the natural, uh, between the physiological,
the mental and the supernatural. Not only can each one
of them be an entity in its own. But I
think there can be overlap. So you're asking like $1
(33:35):
million question? The best answer I have had that for me.
Usually with time it can be ferreted out. You know,
most of the time and and someone say how I say, well,
I will encourage people find a Christian therapist that actually
believes that not only are there physiological issues and mental issues,
but there are supernatural issues and have them work with them.
(33:59):
And if they work with them on an ongoing basis
and they get nowhere, then maybe there's something else. Have
them talk to a doctor. Find out. Are there physiological
issues that would explain what's going on? I certainly don't
believe that anytime someone is in trouble, you blame a demon.
I also have worked with people where the issues were
(34:19):
not physiological. They were not mental. Uh, and yet they were.
They were real. I've even again had professionals say they're real. What?
What is going on here? And I would suggest that
if that is the case, that maybe there's a third
area that needs to be, especially for Christians, we need
to be willing to explore and know enough about it
(34:40):
to do something other than just say, well, God helps
those who help themselves as a cliche or Christians don't
have to worry about this as a cliche, or I'm
afraid of this, I don't want to mess with it.
So let someone else let the missionaries deal with it.
So if somebody says I have checked out the other two,
particularly the situation you're talking about, um, I would say
(35:03):
oftentimes people are more willing to talk about it. Now,
here's second thing. I have found that typically when I'm
talking about someone that is just psychotic and I have
worked with people that are just psychotic, they are all
over the board in the issues they're bringing up. The
things they're saying are very inconsistent. Uh, oftentimes, I don't
(35:24):
know who I'm going to be seeing today that I
didn't see yesterday. And I don't mean that to be
funny when I'm dealing with a Christian who is demonized.
It will almost always be a focal point of either
you're not adequate as a Christian, so give up and die,
or Jesus is not adequate as a savior. So why
do you trust him? So just turn your back on him.
(35:44):
It'll be very focused on Jesus and His adequacy as
a Savior, or you as a believer in your inadequacy.
When it focuses that way, I'm more inclined to look
at the supernatural aspect of it.
S1 (35:57):
Thank you so much, Don. I appreciate your being a
part of this conversation. (877) 548-3675. That's our number. (877) 548-3675. Back
after this. We're visiting with Doctor Carl Payne. Aren't you
(36:25):
glad he comes and visits on a regular basis? I
know I am, and I'm going to tell you because
you can't see it, I can. Every single one of
our phone lines is lit and I'm thrilled. A it
tells me that you're theologically curious about this. B you
really do want to discern fact from fiction, and you're
not going to let the world teach you theology. And
C most important of all, I know that you love
Doctor Calpain and the wonderful way in which he teaches
(36:47):
us the word. (877) 548-3675. Bethany in Pennsylvania, thank you for
being here. And your question, please.
S10 (36:55):
Hi, Janet. Um, my question is how do you go about, um,
preventing and basically handling what you can see as very
obvious generational curses, potentially by demons in family members that
you are in contact with?
S3 (37:15):
Um, I think my the straightest answer that I could
give you would be one that I kind of hinted
at a little bit earlier. So much of it depends
upon two things. Are they a Christian or not? And secondly,
are they willfully involved with whatever is going on or not?
(37:35):
In other words, there's a difference between someone who is
a Christian and who says, I will be 100% honest
about whatever opened up doors, topos, that place, space, or
territory of control to a demon. And I will fight.
Don't they say I will stand against this? I want
it to stop. I believe that when someone is a Christian,
(37:55):
and when they are willing to be 100% honest about whatever,
open doors or allowed doors to be opened, and when
they will fight instead of run or make excuses, there's
not really a lot of difficulty whether when someone wants
to call it generational curses, curses, whether they want to
call it habitual sin, uh, number of number of different
(38:17):
things that can still end up the same place. If
that's where the person is coming from. They should not
have a difficult time getting rid of demons. If that
person is a Christian, but they're not honest, demons will
say you play it our way. If that person is
a Christian who will be honest, but they live terrorized
in fear and think they're a victim. Demons will still
(38:37):
not cooperate because they'll say, you think we have more
power to bother you than Christ does to protect you?
So you're willing to believe lies. If you're willing to
believe lies, why should we quit bothering you? So when
you say, as a person looking at family members, are
they Christians or are they not Christians? Are they Christians
who are wanting to make a break from, uh, demonization?
(38:59):
If that is, in fact, what's going on? I don't
of course, I don't know who you're talking about. Uh,
is it someone who is willfully involved, uh, with sin
that keeps doors open? Is it someone who is saying,
I want this to stop? There are. Those are really,
really important questions that have to be asked. I'll end
with this. It's why when people tell me they hunt down.
(39:21):
Or they might not say it quite that way, but,
you know, they're the demon busters looking for people and
they're willing to to, uh, you know, go after demons.
Not knowing is the person a Christian or not a
Christian is the person. Willfully following uh uh uh uh,
disobedient to Christ or not? I have not seen Christians
(39:42):
who are willing to be willfully disobedient. I've not seen
demons willing to leave them alone. They'll say they compartmentalize.
They say, Jesus can have this, but he can't have that.
They'll say anything he says they don't want him touching.
That's free for us to bother any way we want.
So it really depends more, not so much on the
person who says, I would like to help somebody. Uh,
(40:04):
it depends on where is that person that I suspect
is involved with demons. Are they wanting help?
S1 (40:11):
Well, good answer. Bethany. Thank you so much. Appreciate you
being with us. Kathleen. You've been so patient. And Illinois,
I want to get your question in. Please go ahead
for doctor Pain.
S11 (40:21):
Okay. I was at that point where I was willfully
Disobedient by defiling the Holy Spirit, by my actions to
keep a man that did not believe, because I was
afraid of leaving him. And I know that I'm a Christian,
and I did it anyway. And I'm wondering, did I?
(40:42):
I knew I was defiling the Holy Spirit. I mean,
am I saved or can I do that and still
be saved? I did this for three years, then I
married him and now I can't get that on my
out of my head, I don't know, am I really
forgiven because I knew? It says, you know, let us
not continue in sin that God, you know, God forbid.
(41:03):
I mean, and I did what was forbidden. I mean,
how can I be forgiven for that? And did I, like,
make God stay there?
S3 (41:12):
Oh, great question. Uh, great question. And I hear your heart. Uh,
I would give you two answers. I would say, first,
it's not possible for you to defile the Holy Spirit.
It's not possible for you to defile the Godhead, father,
Son or Holy Spirit. They're holy. They're perfect. They're pure.
Your actions are not going to change their nature, their character.
(41:34):
So first, whatever the language, however you're hearing that, that
you have defiled the Holy Spirit. That's nonsense. And if
I'm actually hearing that running through my head and and
beating me down, I would suspect that's not the Holy Spirit,
because he's not going to tell you you can defile
me when that's not possible. But it might be demonic
entities trying to tell you you're beyond help. You can't
(41:56):
be helped. You've defiled the Holy Spirit. You've defiled God.
Just tips off to me. All they're trying to do
is see if they can say, I can't keep you
out of heaven, but maybe I can keep you so
discouraged that at least I can keep you from helping
other people get there. So that would be first. The
second part of that first John chapter one, verses eight
through ten, clearly written to believers. If you know verse nine,
(42:19):
it gets quoted a lot. Uh, but it's, it's a
it's a wonderful verse for believers. If we confess our sin,
God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and
cleanse us from. And I don't know how much Bible
reading you do, but the next word is all and
all means all. I told somebody that was having a
discussion with me earlier this week because they were saying,
(42:41):
are there sins that if I've committed it, they're not forgivable?
And I'm saying as long as you're breathing and you're
willing to confess your sin, there isn't any sin that
God will not forgive. And the cool thing about first
John one nine is he not only says he'll forgive it,
he says he'll cleanse you. So it means if someone
is telling you that you're still dirty, you still have
dirt on your back, it'll never change. You've committed a
(43:02):
sin that's got you so far gone, God will never
accept you back. Uh. Hebrews 13 five I'll never leave you.
I'll never forsake you. Uh, John, chapter 637. All that
the father gives me, come to me. Those that come
to me, I will not cast out even one. I
won't lose one of them. Uh. Romans 835. Who can
separate us from God's love in Christ? Verse 39, after
(43:22):
he goes through first things physical, then things spiritual. There's
nothing in all of creation that can separate you from
God's love in Christ. So anything telling you you are
beyond salvation or forgiveness is a lie. It's from the
pit of hell. Or it's just really naive. So confess it.
Deal with it. Go forward, Paul says, putting the things
(43:43):
behind I'm going forward. He had people killed, which if
you're looking for something, you want to get behind you.
If he can handle that, you can handle this.
S1 (43:53):
Amen and amen. What a note to end on. Carl,
thank you so very much for your regular appearance here
on In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you for
the clarity of your biblical teaching on this subject. And
thank you so much for spending the time with us.
My thanks also to the people who called in. My
apologies if we didn't get to your call, but because
our dear friend Carl comes in a regular basis, write
(44:14):
your question down and the next time you know he's
going to be on, get in the front of the line.
Thanks so much, friends. We'll see you next time on
in the market with Janet Parshall.
S12 (44:22):
Retractable claws up to 1.5in long, capable of jumping 36ft.
A roar that can be heard five miles away. The
lion King of the beasts. Picture yourself surrounded by several.
Like Daniel, he determined to prey, though he knew he
(44:42):
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our culture? Be a Daniel. A challenge for Moody Radio.
S13 (44:52):
How long have you been a part of the Moody
Radio family?
S14 (44:55):
Well, I've been listening to Moody since 1993. And, I mean,
I get up with Woody, I go to bed with Moody,
and it just. It's been a blessing in my life
for all these years. The teaching and the worship. And
Moody is a station that is really rooted in the
Word of God. In the series about who is God.
S13 (45:14):
Serious about God? That's us. And we're seriously grateful for
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(00:20):
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(00:42):
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(01:30):
want to welcome you to the best of in the market.
Today's program is pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open.
But I do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of the
Best of In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S2 (01:48):
Put on the full armor of God. Put on the
full armor of God. So that you may be able
to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. Put
(02:12):
on the full armor of God.
S1 (02:15):
Well, that's a pretty good clue what we're going to
talk about this hour. Hello, friends. Welcome to In the
Market with Janet Parshall. Get your dialing fingers ready, because
Doctor Karl Pain is in the house, and the topic
on the table is spiritual warfare. You're going to need this. 87754836758775483675.
(02:36):
That's our number here on in the market with Janet Parshall.
Questions only. But any question you've got on the topic
of spiritual warfare. Are you paying attention. By the way,
if you listen to this program with any regularity, you
know that I keep talking with Doctor Karl Pain on
this topic because the phones keep ringing, because people have
an inherent interest in this. By the way, you can
(02:57):
discuss among yourselves whether that interest is a good or
a bad thing. I guess the good thing you could
extrapolate out of this is if there's evil in the world,
it necessary necessarily demands. There has to be good in
the world. And that's certainly a starting place for someone
who says, I don't believe in God. So if there's evil,
you realize the counterbalance has to be that there is
good out there. But the problem is twofold. Number one,
(03:20):
it creates a prurient interest. If I can use that
phrase in the occult, in darkness. And Scripture is real
clear on this. It's like a big red stop sign
have nothing to do with it. You don't have to
be a Dallas Theological Seminary grad to figure that one out.
It says stay away from it, have nothing to do
with it. And every time there was a dabbling in
the occult in scriptures, somebody paid a price. It never, ever,
(03:43):
ever turned out good. And yet here's the other part
of this discussion, and that is that there is a
battle going on in the heavenlies that you and I
cannot see. It is real. It is absolute. How do
I know it? Because every word in those 66 books
is inerrant, transcendent, immutable, God breathed. And that word tells
us there is a war we cannot see. And I
(04:05):
will tell you in full disclosure, as a sister in
the Lord, I'm real glad I can't see it. Sometimes
I think I just might pass out, but then I'm
reminded greater is he that is in me than he
that is in the world. So it is a reality.
And if, as the Bible also teaches us that our
battle is against the world, the flesh and the devil,
you want to know how the devil plays? Not that
he's going to win if you don't give him ground,
(04:27):
but I want to know exactly what the tools are
in his very limited toolbox, so that I know how
to counter man his attacks, assaults, and demonization that he does.
To use one of Carl's words. Well, the Bible also
gives us a hint. Don't you love the way the
Bible never leaves you in the dark? That's why it
is an illuminating book, a lamp unto my feet and
(04:49):
a light unto my path. And it tells us the
exact equipment we put on to engage in this warfare.
And he reminds us again, there is no parity between
God and Satan. Satan is a fallen creature. Pride led
a rebellion. He takes a third of the angels with
him and the rest is human history. So that's why
we continue this conversation, so that you cannot let the
(05:10):
world teach you theology so that you aren't filled with fear,
so that you aren't drawn with pure int interest to
that which we're to have nothing to do with. But
by the same token, you grow up, get up and
suit up in recognizing that this war is absolutely real.
So questions only (877) 548-3675. Let me just start by saying,
(05:31):
I think that Carol's written one of the best books
out there. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance.
And I know many of you have purchased this book,
and in all honesty, I hope many more of you
purchase it as well. It has been repeatedly, repeatedly reprinted,
and there's even an update on information that's been added
to it. And this is something that Doctor Carl Payne,
(05:53):
I'm sure when he started out studying the Word of God,
never thought that this was an area of ministry that
God would call him into. And you know, one of
the things, and if you've listened, can I get an
amen on this? If you've listened with any regularity. He
doesn't sensationalize any of this stuff. In fact, he's very
tepid sometimes when he describes the situations where he's had
encounters with demons. And trust me, this man has had
(06:13):
those kinds of encounters. But he's so relaxed, and I
think it's a confidence that he exudes because of the
power of Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy
Spirit in his life. So he's the perfect teacher for this.
He doesn't sensationalize. He doesn't tell you about worrying about
the boogeyman behind every rock. He just acknowledges the fact
that it's a reality and what we need to understand
(06:34):
based on the Word of God. Carl is a pastor,
a teacher, a speaker and author, and former NFL chaplain
for the Seattle Seahawks. He's on staff right now at
Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington, and his primary role
there is serving as the pastor of leadership development and
discipleship training. And we just love him to pieces and
we're so glad he comes. 87754836758775483675. Any question you have
(07:01):
on spiritual warfare? So Kyle, I was thinking about this.
There's so many things I want to ask you. And
then then I always bow in deference, appropriately to our
listeners who come and ask their questions. But I, too
have a bushel basket full of questions on a regular basis.
So let me just start out because of the work
that God has called you to in this particular area.
What is it about the rebellion in heaven that we
(07:23):
don't understand? I mean, just that whole idea of demons,
because I think there are people who think, well, if
the demons got thrown into the swine and the story
that we read in the gospel, does that mean those
demons were eliminated once and for all, or do they
keep coming back until ultimately, they're all annihilated in the
lake of fire? Clearly, if it was if if the
angels were made and a third of them are part
(07:44):
of this rebellion, I know that there are no new
demons that are being created. I just want to know
how we get rid of the ones that we've got.
So that's maybe a good place to start. What happens
to them? I mean, and I'll go back to the
gospel story when Jesus said, and they cry out, don't
put us in the swine. He puts them in. They
jump over the cliff. Were they annihilated? Are they gone
or do they just get back and play for the
(08:05):
same team again?
S3 (08:06):
Well, first, good afternoon, young lady. I thank you to
tell you that. There you go. Wouldn't be right or
fitting if we didn't touch bases there first. But good questions.
And if I miss any of that, please come back
at me, because it certainly won't be purposeful. Um, I
(08:27):
think that the, uh, final home of, uh, the demons
are going to be the final home of, uh, Satan
and the Antichrist and his false prophet and all those
who followed them. Uh, according to revelation 21. And I
think it's verse eight, I think I think revelation 2010
talks about it too. So I think that's going to
(08:49):
be the ultimate home, but I don't think that's where
they're going immediately, and I'll hear the music. So I'll
finish this up on the backside.
S1 (08:56):
Such a pro. This is why I loved working with you. Okay,
so there's more to the answer to that question. Doctor
Calpain is with us for the entire hour. Spiritual warfare
is our topic and the number you need. 87754836758775483675. Back
after this.
S4 (09:16):
The author. Of God.
S2 (09:21):
The armor of God.
S1 (09:31):
Ever feel intimidated by the Bible, unsure where to begin
or how it all fits together? Well, you're not alone.
That's why I've chosen The Jesus Book by Doctor Jack
Graham as this month's truth tool. Learn to unlock the
timeless wisdom of God's Word. As for your copy of
the Jesus Book, when you give a gift of any
amount in the market, call eight 7758. That's eight Janet, 58,
(09:52):
or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
Doctor Carl Payne is our guest. He's the author of
Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance. He's also on staff
at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington. And I had
asked the questions about using the gospel story of Jesus
(10:13):
driving the demons into the pigs. What happens? Are they annihilated?
Are they done? And Carl started to give the first
part of his answer. That said, ultimately, the final home
of the demons is where we read about it in
the book of revelation. But you said and there was
an important ellipse there, dot, dot, dot. Let's pick it
up from that point, but not immediately. So what happens?
S3 (10:33):
Yeah. Um, now, first I'm going to say if someone
chooses to disagree with me on this, don't lose a
friend over it. I can tell you what I believe.
You know, from my looking at Scripture, and I believe
it's accurate. I wouldn't share it. But if somebody said,
could there be things about final destinations and all that?
(10:54):
I am not understanding. Of course that's always possible. I hope,
you know, hopefully I'm careful. But here's how I would
answer that. First of the immediate question, you know, out
of the out of the gadarene and the Matthew eight
and going into the pigs. I don't know if Jesus
told them, you know, again, arguing from silence is always
(11:16):
a tough one. So I don't know if he told them, uh,
you know, I'll give you your your petition this time
and you'll die with the pigs. If they weren't designated
to go, uh, to, you know, to the pit or
the abyss, which you see in Luke 831 and see
(11:37):
if I can tie this together when Jesus is approached
in Luke eight. And that's the same, you know, Luke eight,
Matthew eight, uh, dealing with the gadarenes they are not happy.
They're saying, you know, if you come to bother us soon,
you know. We don't want to go to this place. And,
you know, are we going to have to go there early?
And it's it's referred to as the abyss or the pit.
(11:59):
I think they're one and the same thing. What do
I know about it? Well, I know from, from 831
that it's going to be where demons are going to
be going, at least temporarily. And what do I mean
by that? I would say, Janet, that their final home
again is in the lake of Fire. Uh, but I
think that, uh, and that's again the revelation, uh, 2010
(12:21):
or the 21 verse eight, but I think that there's
a place that they're, uh, going to be going before
then and now this is if I'm guessing. But, you know,
in revelation chapter 20, verses one through three, and in
revelation chapter nine, verse two, both of them talk about
a the pit. They use the same language. And we're
(12:44):
told that Satan is going to be tossed there in
revelation 20 and held on a chain for a thousand
years during the Millennial Kingdom and then released for a
bit of time. Well, clearly that's not his final home.
His final home is going to be that lake of
fire that later in the chapter says that he and
the and the Antichrist and the false prophet and all
(13:05):
those that followed him, that's going to be their final home.
Just like our final home as believers is going to
be in a new heaven and a new earth with
the Lord Jesus, uh, ruling and reigning. So if someone says,
what's this other place? I'm saying, well, it seems to
be a place they don't want to go. It's a
lot of torment. Uh, they clearly were petitioning. Jesus. Don't
(13:27):
make us go there early. But it's not the final home.
So I believe that's why when people, you know, if
they'll say, uh, hell, Hades, pit, abyss or interchangeable, I'd say, no. No,
I think, uh, Hades and hell are a temporary holding pen.
I think that, uh, the, you know, the, uh. Um,
(13:49):
I'm going to get confusing, but here's what I'm here
in Luke chapter 16. See if I can pull this
all together. We're told a story that I don't believe
was just a parable. There was a man named Lazarus.
It doesn't say there might be. Or I'm going to
give you an allegory. And when he died, that whole story,
(14:10):
starting in about verse 20, what we're told is that
the rich man was in a place of torment. Lazarus
was in a good place, but they were conscious of
each other. They could see each other. So whatever that was,
I've just called that a holding pit. And I have said,
apparently it's a temporary place that, uh, uh, you know,
(14:32):
both and especially with the Old Testament saints work. That's
why I called it a holding place. One pleasant one naught.
But they were conscious of each other, and the rich
man is saying, then please send somebody back from the dead,
because I don't want my brothers to come to this
horrible place. Well, I see that where human beings are
stashed temporary. But I see the the holding pen, if
(14:55):
you would the temporary for the demonic, the supernatural being
this thing called the pit or or the abyss. And
we're told that it's the same place, I believe, where
Satan is going to be stashed for that thousand years
in revelation 21 through six and exits one through three
and the same place, same language used in revelation nine,
(15:17):
which is told it's horrible. It's a place of torment.
But it doesn't say that. It's it's, uh, it's humans
and demons. It says this is a place for the supernatural.
So I think you got a temporary holding pit for people. Uh,
in revelation in Luke six, they're still conscious of each other.
(15:38):
I think that the, uh. And I think that the abyss.
Excuse me. I think that the abyss and the pit
talked about was something particularly, uh, painful, even more so
than the other. And that seems to be where the
supernatural entities go. Is it the final resting place for
(15:58):
either one? And I'm suggesting no. The final resting place,
according to revelation 2010 and 21 eight is going to be,
you know, the lake of fire burning forever. And and
it says that there will be the combining of, of Satan,
the Antichrist, his false prophet, all that followed him. They're
(16:20):
going to end up in that final place, just like
we are going to end up not in a place
of Abraham's bosom or a place where, you know, we're
being held temporarily, but we're going to end up being
in a new heaven and a new earth. I don't
think those demons were, I don't know, did he put
them there, or did he just say, you're going to
(16:41):
get a free run and you'll bother people later? I
hope he put them where they were stashed. But if
he didn't, then yes, they were recycled until they finally
go to that pit area.
S1 (16:52):
Wow, what a fascinating answer, Carl. Thank you for. I'm
so glad I asked that question. Thank you. Now, when
we come back, you ask the question, is this point
going forward? 8775483675A bunch of questions online already. (877) 548-3675. Doctor
Carl Payne is our guest. Our topic is spiritual warfare
(17:12):
and we're taking your questions back after this. (877) 548-3675. Doctor
Carl Payne is our guest. And we're taking your questions
(17:35):
on spiritual warfare. Laura in Illinois, thank you for being
with us. We'll take your question, please.
S5 (17:41):
Okay. My question is, how do you know if you
have been cursed And can you be delivered from a curse?
S3 (17:49):
Um. Good question. And, uh, I would say that that
is the second part for sure. In other words, if
you're talking about if it's demonic, if it's real, you're
still talking about entities that are involved in that, that
are underneath the delegated authority of Christ. Ultimately, since Christ
(18:11):
is creator, it means anything, and everything is part of
the creation. So whether you're talking about human beings that
are being nasty or demonic, spirits that are being nasty,
if there's something that has really landed and it's really real,
you're still talking about things that are finite, not things eternal.
(18:31):
And we're told in Luke ten that we have been
delegated authority from the creator that is greater than any
of the authority that's been given to his creation. That's
why we're told we've been given authority to tread on.
It I mean, it's just step on, tread upon the serpents. Scorpions.
I've given you authority over the serpents. Scorpions over all
the power of the enemy. They shall in no wise
harm you. Nevertheless do not rejoice, because the spirits are
(18:54):
subject to you. Rejoice because your names are recorded in heaven.
So I have suggested our joy is in looking up,
not looking down. And it's the joy is in delegated authority,
we're told, is given to all whose names are recorded
in heaven. And as I've said before, no one's going
to be in heaven whose name wasn't recorded in heaven. Uh,
there'll be that's believers, you know, there. But, uh, I
(19:16):
have authority that says whatever the attacks are when they're
coming from losers, I do not have to see myself
as a loser and run, I'm told. Uh, we've talked
about it again. We've talked about James four. First Peter five.
I'm to resist, don't I? State it means I stand against.
I remain against you, I fight, I don't run. So
(19:37):
is it possible for those things, if they're real, that
have landed to to for them to be removed. Yes
it is. That's that's not an issue. The second part
of it, I again I see sometimes this is just
part of a game that people play and there is
no reality to it. And so I'm not saying that's
true for all, but I'm saying sometimes I think if
(19:58):
someone says, I think I've been cursed, how if how
would I understand that? I would say, you're going to
ultimately end up running into the same type of things.
When we talk about people that are demonized and I
won't say always, sometimes it's physical, but some but most
of the time it's a mental beating and the beating
is you're a loser, you're no good. God doesn't love you.
(20:20):
It's never going to change. Kill yourself. Everything you touch
turns to dirt. Everything someone else touches turns to gold.
If God really loved you, why would he allow you
to go through this, etc. so if someone says is
it really real? I would say, well, if I'm living
in a in a constant world of of the accusation
and beat down, whether that's come from me opening doors.
(20:43):
Whether that's come from ancestral issues, whether that's come from curses,
from someone that actually knows what they're doing, I can
be real, but none of it is. It can't be touched.
It can't be dealt with. You're on the side if
you're a believer. I don't know you. But if you're
a believer in Christ lives in you. You're on the
side that is identified as Victor. Everything else, ultimately is
(21:04):
going to be identified as victim. So I'm saying I
learn how to stand on what is mine. I learn
how to not play games with evil for certain. But
I also don't run from it. I don't have to.
S1 (21:16):
Mm. Laura. Thank you. Appreciate so much for being with us.
That opens Laura's line, by the way. Now. 8775483. 675.
Laura in Georgia, thank you for joining us. Your question please.
S6 (21:29):
Well, hello. It's also in Luke ten. And I heard
a sermon recently. The pastor said, I don't believe Jesus
actually saw Satan fall like lightning. So in Luke 1018. Yeah.
Did Jesus really see Satan fall like lightning?
S3 (21:49):
Well, here's where I would go. And I mean this
with all due respect to your pastor. But if Jesus
said he saw him fall from heaven like lightning. And
if Jesus always tells the truth because he was truth incarnated,
Titus one two says, it's impossible for God to lie.
Jesus claimed to be God. He claimed to be the truth,
not a truth. That's a that's an absolute statement. I
(22:12):
would be inclined to say, I'm going to believe what
Jesus said and accept that as truth, rather than an
opinion of someone who would suggest that Jesus wasn't telling
the truth. So that one wouldn't be a real hard
call for me. But if he's your pastor, I'm sure
you respect him. And I'm not suggesting be rude, but
any time. I don't care if it's that. If someone
(22:33):
tells me all educated people believe that the world and
life evolved. Uh, you know that nothing is the ultimate
resource for everything. And if my pastor know it all
says that's absolutely true because I don't want to be
in trouble with my colleagues. And most people believe, uh,
you know, in Neo-darwinism I would say, brother, as long
(22:55):
as God tells me he created, uh, I'm going to
I'm going to roll with with God did what he
said he did. He will do what he said he
will do. And there's probably things all of us are
going to learn in the process along the way. But, uh,
people that think, you know, I can deconstruct, they call
it that's the fancy word, make the Bible say what
(23:16):
I want it to say. I'm saying you can do that,
but not if you're saying I want to study in context.
So if your pastor is taking on Jesus over what
is true and what isn't, I'm running with Jesus.
S1 (23:29):
Thank you, Kyle, for the answer. And Laura, thank you
so much for being a part of the conversation. (877) 548-3675.
Let me remind you again that Carol's book is called
spiritual warfare. Christians demonization and deliverance. And if this is
a subject that you want to dig deep into, this
is a book you should read. Just go to in
the Market with Janet Parshall or click on the red box.
(23:53):
It's just below the program description and it'll say Program
Details and audio. Click that on takes you to our
information page. There's a longer bio bio for Doctor Payne.
There's a link to his website. And on the right
hand side there's the link to his book. Click on
through and you can get your own copy. When we
come back, more of your questions at (877) 548-3675. Tired of
(24:28):
the endless, biased spin you hear on mainstream media and
in the market, we're using God's Word as our guide
as we examine today's events, and we want you to
be informed and bold about his truth. This is a
listener supported program, so if you value what you hear
and you want us to continue on your station, become
a partial partner with your monthly support, call eight 7758.
That's eight 7758 or go online to in the market
(24:50):
with Janet Parshall. Doctor Karl Pain is our guest pastor, teacher, speaker,
author on staff at the Antioch Bible Church of Redmond, Washington.
His primary role there is serving as the pastor of
Leadership Development and Discipleship Training. He's written a superb book
on the topic. It is entitled Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization
(25:13):
and Deliverance. Our number here and we're taking your questions
on spiritual warfare is (877) 548-3675. That's (877) 548-3675. Maggie, you are
in Florida. I thank you so for your patience and
your question, please.
S7 (25:30):
Yay! Um, I have a niece. A grand niece that's
nine year old daughter has, uh, above and beyond. I mean,
she's tried to set the house on fire. She is, uh,
tried to hurt her sister. She. Ever since she was born.
And my question is, and they don't go to church,
(25:52):
but I think both the parents, um, love Jesus. Uh,
my question is, can you be born with a demon?
And if there's anything you can give me to help
me with my grandniece.
S3 (26:08):
That's a tough that's a tough situation to be in. Uh,
the first the first question is ancestral sin. Generational sin.
Still alive and well today. Uh, the answer to that
is yes. I deal with it regularly. Uh, I see
it more often now than I used to. And I'll
(26:30):
give you my best, best guess on it. I think
it's because so many of the people that I deal
with now are either the children or the grandchildren of
my generation and my generation in the late 60s and
early 70s is the one that made up, you know,
the more. More sex you have, the better marriage partner
(26:51):
you'll be. Well, that was a brilliant statement. The more
drugs you take, you know, Timothy Leary, the smarter you
will be. He got that one right. Mhm. You know
that God is dead. You know, Zen was in, uh,
transcendental meditation, new age. ET cetera. I think that there
were people in my generation that expedited through a lot
(27:13):
of that, uh, what I see now with their children
and their grandchildren. So I don't know if that's right
or wrong. That's just my best guess on it. But
I know that when I first started working with this
back in the 80s, I would occasionally run into generational issues, uh,
where demons held the topos the place, space, or territory
through generational sin. I now see it regularly, so that'd
(27:36):
that would be the first. Second, if the parents are
are both Christians, they're going to have more ability to
do anything than you or, uh, a as an aunt
or a great aunt or whatever that was, simply because
demons recognize parents as the ones holding authority over small children.
(27:57):
They see them as entrusted to and under the charge of.
I've said I don't mean this cynically, but I think
demons hold a higher regard over a parent's authority, uh,
from God's perspective. And I think they agree with it. Uh,
then many, many human beings in our culture do. So
I have many times thought, uh, when there were trouble
(28:18):
with children, uh, young, sometimes nine. I've seen that go
both ways. If a if a child is old enough
to know what they're doing, then demons will say, uh,
they're the ones that are going to have to confess
this because they're the ones who opened the doors to it.
If they're much younger than that, I have seen parents
(28:40):
pray over children where things were just really odd and
just correlate stopped and I say, well, welcome to spiritual
warfare and welcome to generational sin. So I would say
it depends upon the not the, the physical age, the
chronological age, but the cognitive understanding, you know, where was
there a magic age? Not that I know of, uh,
(29:03):
parents have a tremendous influence over their children. Yes. Do
demons recognize that? Yes, they do, because God recognizes that
even if culture doesn't, what can you. My encouragement to
you would be praying that if she is, if that's
really going on, that those parents would become dialed in
enough that they would say, you know what? We want
to see our child get helped. I would pray offensively, Janet,
(29:26):
I have talked about that, that if there are demonic
entities that are bothering that nine year old Lord, would
you start tormenting the ones tormenting that nine year old,
would you undermine the ones trying to undermine? So I
would go after that with prayer and ask an omniscient
God to start making entities that are picking on kids
to pay for their job. But it sounds to me
(29:47):
like you didn't sound real strong on where the parents were.
At least that's how I kind of heard it. I
would be praying, God, dial them in. Have them get
a hold of a Bubeck book, or a Dickerson book,
or a Marcus Warner book, something that you know is
clear and easy to understand and find out, you know,
what can we do as parents to stick up for
(30:09):
our children instead of them just hanging out there?
S1 (30:11):
Yeah. Amen, Maggie. Thank you. So appreciate you being a
part of the conversation. Deborah, I welcome you from Illinois.
Your question for Doctor Carl Payne, please.
S8 (30:20):
Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Will we see people
in hell? And what made me think of it is
Isaiah 66 verse 24, talking about the new heaven and
the new earth, and then revelation 1411 where it says,
we're looking at people who have accepted the mark of
(30:42):
the beast. So are we going to see people in hell?
S3 (30:49):
Well, I'm not going to see anybody in hell because
I'm not going to be there. And if you're a Christian,
you're not going to be there either. But I will
still say kind of where we started earlier. Revelation 21
seven and eight really helps me understand. The final spot
for believers is a new heaven and a new earth.
Verse eight, the final spot for all unbelievers, and we've
(31:12):
already been told it will contain in chapter 20, verse ten, Satan,
his anti-Christ, his false prophet. They're going to be there.
It's a place of eternal lake of torment. We're also
told in 21 eight that all unbelievers, those that didn't
follow Christ, are going to be there with them. That's
going to be their final holding place. I believe there's
(31:32):
going to be a huge divide between believer and unbeliever.
So no, I don't think you're going to be seeing
people in hell. I suppose if you're not a believer
and you end up in hell, are you going to
be able to to see them? I've always been told
it's going to be a place of isolation, but that
is what I've heard. I don't know whether people will
be able to high five each other in hell and say,
(31:53):
how do we ever get here? Well, I was dumb
enough to ignore Jesus, I suppose, but I just don't
think there's going to be much there that allows for
fellowship or contentment or any kind of help. I think
it is going to be torment. Torment. Torment. Torment. So
I don't suspect we would be seeing people in hell
even if we're there. I think there's going to be isolation.
(32:15):
If you're a believer, I don't think you're going to
be anywhere near hell. You're going to be in a
new heaven and a new earth.
S1 (32:21):
Thanks, Deborah. Appreciate you being here. Donna, let me turn
to you next, if I can, please, in Alaska. Welcome.
And your question, please.
S9 (32:29):
Thank you for taking my call. Um, there's a young
adult in our congregation with congenital mental issues. I don't
know the diagnosis. This person has learned that a way
to get attention is to repeatedly say they hear voices.
So how do we separate mental handicap from possible demonic work?
S3 (32:53):
Great question. I get that one from counselors at conferences
all over the country. Uh, and I mean, usually counselors
that are willing to be there now because they're saying,
I've had I've had counselors, therapists, uh, clinical psychologists, etc.
tell me, you know what? We know how to deal
with physiological issues. We know how to deal with mental issues.
We're trained to do that. But there's a third issue
(33:14):
that's real, and we're just not trained to deal with it.
But it's real. And so to say that it can't
be confusing at times, I think it can be. I
think things can overlap between the natural, uh, between the physiological,
the mental and the supernatural. Not only can each one
of them be an entity in its own. But I
think there can be overlap. So you're asking like $1
(33:35):
million question? The best answer I have had that for me.
Usually with time it can be ferreted out. You know,
most of the time and and someone say how I say, well,
I will encourage people find a Christian therapist that actually
believes that not only are there physiological issues and mental issues,
but there are supernatural issues and have them work with them.
(33:59):
And if they work with them on an ongoing basis
and they get nowhere, then maybe there's something else. Have
them talk to a doctor. Find out. Are there physiological
issues that would explain what's going on? I certainly don't
believe that anytime someone is in trouble, you blame a demon.
I also have worked with people where the issues were
(34:19):
not physiological. They were not mental. Uh, and yet they were.
They were real. I've even again had professionals say they're real. What?
What is going on here? And I would suggest that
if that is the case, that maybe there's a third
area that needs to be, especially for Christians, we need
to be willing to explore and know enough about it
(34:40):
to do something other than just say, well, God helps
those who help themselves as a cliche or Christians don't
have to worry about this as a cliche, or I'm
afraid of this, I don't want to mess with it.
So let someone else let the missionaries deal with it.
So if somebody says I have checked out the other two,
particularly the situation you're talking about, um, I would say
(35:03):
oftentimes people are more willing to talk about it. Now,
here's second thing. I have found that typically when I'm
talking about someone that is just psychotic and I have
worked with people that are just psychotic, they are all
over the board in the issues they're bringing up. The
things they're saying are very inconsistent. Uh, oftentimes, I don't
(35:24):
know who I'm going to be seeing today that I
didn't see yesterday. And I don't mean that to be
funny when I'm dealing with a Christian who is demonized.
It will almost always be a focal point of either
you're not adequate as a Christian, so give up and die,
or Jesus is not adequate as a savior. So why
do you trust him? So just turn your back on him.
(35:44):
It'll be very focused on Jesus and His adequacy as
a Savior, or you as a believer in your inadequacy.
When it focuses that way, I'm more inclined to look
at the supernatural aspect of it.
S1 (35:57):
Thank you so much, Don. I appreciate your being a
part of this conversation. (877) 548-3675. That's our number. (877) 548-3675. Back
after this. We're visiting with Doctor Carl Payne. Aren't you
(36:25):
glad he comes and visits on a regular basis? I
know I am, and I'm going to tell you because
you can't see it, I can. Every single one of
our phone lines is lit and I'm thrilled. A it
tells me that you're theologically curious about this. B you
really do want to discern fact from fiction, and you're
not going to let the world teach you theology. And
C most important of all, I know that you love
Doctor Calpain and the wonderful way in which he teaches
(36:47):
us the word. (877) 548-3675. Bethany in Pennsylvania, thank you for
being here. And your question, please.
S10 (36:55):
Hi, Janet. Um, my question is how do you go about, um,
preventing and basically handling what you can see as very
obvious generational curses, potentially by demons in family members that
you are in contact with?
S3 (37:15):
Um, I think my the straightest answer that I could
give you would be one that I kind of hinted
at a little bit earlier. So much of it depends
upon two things. Are they a Christian or not? And secondly,
are they willfully involved with whatever is going on or not?
(37:35):
In other words, there's a difference between someone who is
a Christian and who says, I will be 100% honest
about whatever opened up doors, topos, that place, space, or
territory of control to a demon. And I will fight.
Don't they say I will stand against this? I want
it to stop. I believe that when someone is a Christian,
(37:55):
and when they are willing to be 100% honest about whatever,
open doors or allowed doors to be opened, and when
they will fight instead of run or make excuses, there's
not really a lot of difficulty whether when someone wants
to call it generational curses, curses, whether they want to
call it habitual sin, uh, number of number of different
(38:17):
things that can still end up the same place. If
that's where the person is coming from. They should not
have a difficult time getting rid of demons. If that
person is a Christian, but they're not honest, demons will
say you play it our way. If that person is
a Christian who will be honest, but they live terrorized
in fear and think they're a victim. Demons will still
(38:37):
not cooperate because they'll say, you think we have more
power to bother you than Christ does to protect you?
So you're willing to believe lies. If you're willing to
believe lies, why should we quit bothering you? So when
you say, as a person looking at family members, are
they Christians or are they not Christians? Are they Christians
who are wanting to make a break from, uh, demonization?
(38:59):
If that is, in fact, what's going on? I don't
of course, I don't know who you're talking about. Uh,
is it someone who is willfully involved, uh, with sin
that keeps doors open? Is it someone who is saying,
I want this to stop? There are. Those are really,
really important questions that have to be asked. I'll end
with this. It's why when people tell me they hunt down.
(39:21):
Or they might not say it quite that way, but,
you know, they're the demon busters looking for people and
they're willing to to, uh, you know, go after demons.
Not knowing is the person a Christian or not a
Christian is the person. Willfully following uh uh uh uh,
disobedient to Christ or not? I have not seen Christians
(39:42):
who are willing to be willfully disobedient. I've not seen
demons willing to leave them alone. They'll say they compartmentalize.
They say, Jesus can have this, but he can't have that.
They'll say anything he says they don't want him touching.
That's free for us to bother any way we want.
So it really depends more, not so much on the
person who says, I would like to help somebody. Uh,
(40:04):
it depends on where is that person that I suspect
is involved with demons. Are they wanting help?
S1 (40:11):
Well, good answer. Bethany. Thank you so much. Appreciate you
being with us. Kathleen. You've been so patient. And Illinois,
I want to get your question in. Please go ahead
for doctor Pain.
S11 (40:21):
Okay. I was at that point where I was willfully
Disobedient by defiling the Holy Spirit, by my actions to
keep a man that did not believe, because I was
afraid of leaving him. And I know that I'm a Christian,
and I did it anyway. And I'm wondering, did I?
(40:42):
I knew I was defiling the Holy Spirit. I mean,
am I saved or can I do that and still
be saved? I did this for three years, then I
married him and now I can't get that on my
out of my head, I don't know, am I really
forgiven because I knew? It says, you know, let us
not continue in sin that God, you know, God forbid.
(41:03):
I mean, and I did what was forbidden. I mean,
how can I be forgiven for that? And did I, like,
make God stay there?
S3 (41:12):
Oh, great question. Uh, great question. And I hear your heart. Uh,
I would give you two answers. I would say, first,
it's not possible for you to defile the Holy Spirit.
It's not possible for you to defile the Godhead, father,
Son or Holy Spirit. They're holy. They're perfect. They're pure.
Your actions are not going to change their nature, their character.
(41:34):
So first, whatever the language, however you're hearing that, that
you have defiled the Holy Spirit. That's nonsense. And if
I'm actually hearing that running through my head and and
beating me down, I would suspect that's not the Holy Spirit,
because he's not going to tell you you can defile
me when that's not possible. But it might be demonic
entities trying to tell you you're beyond help. You can't
(41:56):
be helped. You've defiled the Holy Spirit. You've defiled God.
Just tips off to me. All they're trying to do
is see if they can say, I can't keep you
out of heaven, but maybe I can keep you so
discouraged that at least I can keep you from helping
other people get there. So that would be first. The
second part of that first John chapter one, verses eight
through ten, clearly written to believers. If you know verse nine,
(42:19):
it gets quoted a lot. Uh, but it's, it's a
it's a wonderful verse for believers. If we confess our sin,
God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and
cleanse us from. And I don't know how much Bible
reading you do, but the next word is all and
all means all. I told somebody that was having a
discussion with me earlier this week because they were saying,
(42:41):
are there sins that if I've committed it, they're not forgivable?
And I'm saying as long as you're breathing and you're
willing to confess your sin, there isn't any sin that
God will not forgive. And the cool thing about first
John one nine is he not only says he'll forgive it,
he says he'll cleanse you. So it means if someone
is telling you that you're still dirty, you still have
dirt on your back, it'll never change. You've committed a
(43:02):
sin that's got you so far gone, God will never
accept you back. Uh. Hebrews 13 five I'll never leave you.
I'll never forsake you. Uh, John, chapter 637. All that
the father gives me, come to me. Those that come
to me, I will not cast out even one. I
won't lose one of them. Uh. Romans 835. Who can
separate us from God's love in Christ? Verse 39, after
(43:22):
he goes through first things physical, then things spiritual. There's
nothing in all of creation that can separate you from
God's love in Christ. So anything telling you you are
beyond salvation or forgiveness is a lie. It's from the
pit of hell. Or it's just really naive. So confess it.
Deal with it. Go forward, Paul says, putting the things
(43:43):
behind I'm going forward. He had people killed, which if
you're looking for something, you want to get behind you.
If he can handle that, you can handle this.
S1 (43:53):
Amen and amen. What a note to end on. Carl,
thank you so very much for your regular appearance here
on In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you for
the clarity of your biblical teaching on this subject. And
thank you so much for spending the time with us.
My thanks also to the people who called in. My
apologies if we didn't get to your call, but because
our dear friend Carl comes in a regular basis, write
(44:14):
your question down and the next time you know he's
going to be on, get in the front of the line.
Thanks so much, friends. We'll see you next time on
in the market with Janet Parshall.
S12 (44:22):
Retractable claws up to 1.5in long, capable of jumping 36ft.
A roar that can be heard five miles away. The
lion King of the beasts. Picture yourself surrounded by several.
Like Daniel, he determined to prey, though he knew he
(44:42):
would pay. Are we willing to face the lions of
our culture? Be a Daniel. A challenge for Moody Radio.
S13 (44:52):
How long have you been a part of the Moody
Radio family?
S14 (44:55):
Well, I've been listening to Moody since 1993. And, I mean,
I get up with Woody, I go to bed with Moody,
and it just. It's been a blessing in my life
for all these years. The teaching and the worship. And
Moody is a station that is really rooted in the
Word of God. In the series about who is God.
S13 (45:14):
Serious about God? That's us. And we're seriously grateful for
listeners like you.
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