June 14, 2025 • 45 mins
Muslims love Jesus—but do they know who He really is? Abdu Murray will join us to explore the Islamic view of Jesus, known to Muslims as “Isa.” What does the Qur’an say about Him? Is He just a prophet, or something more? And how do Islamic beliefs about Jesus at the end of time—His return, His role in judgment—compare with what the Bible reveals? Abdu draws from his background as a former Muslim and Christian apologist to explain what Islam gets right about Jesus, what it leaves out, and why the differences aren’t minor—they’re eternal.
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S1 (00:00):
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(00:22):
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(00:42):
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(01:03):
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(02:08):
In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S2 (02:10):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (02:12):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (02:14):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:17):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S5 (02:20):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:38):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're
going to do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't
run screaming from the room. In other words, you often
hear me quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such
a great word picture. He refers to the Bible as
the straight stick of truth. And when you think about it,
it's brilliant, is it not because you use it as
(02:59):
a plumb line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas,
ideas that aren't in alignment with the Word of God?
I also think it's important to do this because it
helps us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing.
Don't use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell
me that it's fire in your bones and you can't
wait to share the good news with somebody else. And
(03:19):
so if you understand where someone else is coming from,
while their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture,
it helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace
filled narrative, to be able to talk to that person
about Jesus Christ. Right? So that's what we're going to
do this hour, and we're going to focus particularly in
on Islam. And our friend Abdul Murray is in the house,
just loves spending time with this man. Oh, he keeps
(03:39):
me on my toes. He makes my synapses snap the
entire hour. And I bet he does it for you too.
He's the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers
the credibility of the gospel message as a speaker and
a writer. He's authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand
Central question and his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion.
And he was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would
(04:03):
you have had the staying power to seek Jesus for
nine years? Well, this man was deeply curious and had
a hunger in his heart. So for nine years he
turned over all kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones,
theological ones, scientific ones, until he finally found himself at
the foot of the cross, accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom!
Old things pass away, all things become new. And now
this lawyer by training is an advocate for the King,
(04:26):
and he does a superb job just doing that. So
vis a vis embraced the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast.
And yeah, I'm you know, Paul says don't build on
another man's work. I'm not going to. But I'll tell
you what, I'll pick his brains, because what I listen
to on his podcast, I think, is so good that
if you're not following Embrace the Truth in their podcast,
this is a catalyst for you to get even more
interested and start listening to Abdul and his conversations on
(04:48):
a more regular basis. So he recently was talking about
Islam and what Muslims think about Jesus and Abdul. The
warmest of welcomes. You made a statement that I thought
was so interesting, and I bet it's going to challenge
anybody who's listening with both ears on the side of
their head right now. And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now,
I can't tell you. I know a whole lot of
Christians that would say Christians love Mohammed. So I don't
(05:11):
know that I can tip that back and forth and
say it's equal in either camp. But to say that
a muslim loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam,
a religion created hundreds of years after Christianity that there
would be an affinity at all for Jesus. When Mohammed
is the one true prophet to the followers of Islam.
So talk to me about the fact that they love Jesus.
(05:33):
I find that interesting and intriguing.
S6 (05:35):
Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to
be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh,
thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot
of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam
is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and
in some ways, that's actually true. There is this sense
in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor
(05:56):
to religions that are already established in the Middle East,
like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was,
was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh,
in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists.
It's a God is greater. In other words, God is
greater than the things you guys say about him because
you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's
(06:19):
a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade
of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that
sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and
a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah,
all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus,
they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love
(06:42):
him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran
has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's called
Surat Maryam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran.
Maryam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so
the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary
and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary,
(07:03):
from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as
a prophet of God who warned people to come back
to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact,
they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he
actually preached Islam. Um, to return to the dietary and
other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally and
(07:24):
to get away from any kind of paganism or other
kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had
gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered
him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus
performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least
of which is his virgin birth, but also that as
a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh,
(07:46):
sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's
honor that he was, in fact a gift of God,
not the result of some sort of tawdry thing she
had done. Um, and he, uh, heals the sick. He
even raises the dead, um, and does all these things.
So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one
of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's
(08:07):
a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of
Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So
for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they
love Jesus.
S1 (08:17):
Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So
you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles.
Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles?
S6 (08:27):
So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand
of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle
that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic
office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad
was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him
the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate,
(08:48):
and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and
content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man.
It had to be a miraculous revelation to him. In fact,
they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship of the Quran.
They'd say it's completely God that he was not inspired. Rather,
(09:09):
he heard words and he simply said what he heard.
So he is like this mouthpiece. But other than that,
according to strict Islam, there are no miracles. Now, there
are some folk areas of Islam where there are miracles,
but strictly speaking, there are none attributed to Muhammad other
than the Quran itself.
S1 (09:24):
Wow, I bet you just heard a boatload of things
you never heard before. That's why I love spending time
with Abdul. He's such a great teacher. We are going
to continue to talk about what our Muslim friends think
about Jesus. I think it's important for us to understand,
and I think it also equips us when we're loving
our Muslim neighbors. And we want to share the good
news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again,
I've got a link to embrace the truth so much.
(09:47):
Excellent resource material there and a podcast dealing specifically with this.
I've got a link in my info page as well.
Much more with Abdu Murray right after this. Have you
(10:08):
ever wondered why music moves us so deeply, or why
beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month
is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of
wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have you ever wondered?
Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary
biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever
wondered when you give a gift of any amount in
the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58
(10:30):
or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Is
with us for the entire hour. We always look forward
to our regular conversations with him. He is president of
Embrace the Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things
he does through his ministries. He's got a fabulous podcast.
So he had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam, Prophet, Messiah,
(10:52):
but not God. Question mark. And so we're doing a
side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the
first part of our conversation, and I bet you have
as well. So let me pick up where we left off.
So I find this interesting and and I wonder if
in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension
or it's just moving past it, because the singular role
of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does
(11:15):
miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad
has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up
being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think,
and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective,
I would think someone who could do miracles would already,
in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my
(11:36):
attention over someone who was not. Is that not a
tension in the Islamic world?
S6 (11:40):
Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the
reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran actually attributed
to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So,
as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically
say Muhammad performed some miracles. In fact, there are several
places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is um, uh,
where there is a um, I'm looking it up real quick.
(12:03):
There is a section, there's a couple of verses where
the Quran says, for example, in, um, the 13th chapter,
seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some
sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um,
in other words, if only there was something that we
could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only
a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come
(12:27):
back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various commentators
who made a point that there is no there is
no miracle story in the Quran except for these vague references,
for example, in the 17th chapter, uh, verse one, um,
there is this reference to what's called a mirage, which
is basically a night journey where, um, according to Muslim tradition, uh,
(12:51):
Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all
the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock
is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims.
And he was taken there in a single night by
a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the
only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17,
where it says, uh, glory to God who took his
servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant
(13:12):
for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to
the farthest mosque, whose precincts we blessed in order that
we might show him some of our signs or some
of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's
no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from
chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said
that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say
that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about
(13:33):
Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he looked,
took his finger in the sky, and he traced out
the moon and he split the moon with his finger. Now,
that is not considered necessarily a strong claim or evidence,
but because of the tension you just mentioned, a lot
of these, um, a lot of these miracles have to
be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most recent prophet before
(13:57):
him was Jesus, and he did a bunch of miracles.
He was born of a virgin, and in fact was
an even greater tension is that the Quran refers to
Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer to Muhammad that
way or anybody else, frankly, as that way. In fact,
Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort of implied way,
for forgiveness at the end of his life.
S1 (14:16):
The tension just keeps growing. So and again, thank you
for that superb explanation about that. Because if again hierarchical
just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus does miracles,
Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless. Jesus is.
And yet you decide, if I can put it this way,
to go to a lesser God. I find that interesting
(14:38):
to me. So what is the attractiveness if the things
that Jesus can do, um, are not identified or affirmed
in Qur'anic writing, why would one then subscribe to Muhammad
as opposed to Jesus?
S6 (14:52):
Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is
just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one
of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad had a
tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically, and he was
an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this
growing movement of Muhammad amongst, uh, the pagan Arabs of
the time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop
(15:12):
doing that. Um, he had a, a political affinity, uh,
or even a theological affinity to a degree with Christians
and Jews in the beginning of his prophetic career, as
it were. Um, by saying, Christians and Jews, we all
believe in the same God. And I affirm your prophets
and all these things. And so some were converting to Islam, uh,
by by choice, not necessarily by force. Uh, it was
(15:36):
when they began to resist him, because he was claiming
an office that was at least as good, if not
higher than Jesus, that he, the Quran, starts to turn
on them, and Muhammad starts to turn on them and
say that Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures.
It's actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So
you have this political charismatic thing, but then later on,
I think what happens is, is you have this sociological development,
(15:58):
and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't
have necessarily a historical according to Hoyle, this is how
this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it,
based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad
is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially,
specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is.
He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people in
(16:22):
light of the the Jews and the Romans of the
time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they had
prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes an
Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line, the
line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith. And
so this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to have this
affinity for him, there has to be a loyalty and
(16:45):
a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality, because
even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says we
make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction.
They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the
last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not
greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater.
Yet Muslims will take great offense if someone makes fun
(17:08):
of Muhammad but not Jesus, they're fine with Jesus being
made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because
there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on
ethnicity and sociology.
S1 (17:19):
Boy, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay,
this isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so
there's a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that has
to be played around this when we come back. Abdul,
I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet
there are a whole lot of people who could say, well,
I didn't even know if Muhammad was real. Tell me
(17:40):
a little bit about his biography that he is a historical,
historically substantiated person that was in history. Tell me something
about his background. Abdul Murray is with us. The purpose
of all of this is to get fire in your
bones so you can share Jesus with your Muslim friends
back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray, president of
(18:02):
Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way. Let
me run some titles past you again. Saving truth, Grand
central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book,
More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a
great podcast as well. All of that can be found
at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to
the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I
(18:24):
guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth.
So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly
what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I
was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity
of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence. And
all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdu,
about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the
(18:46):
parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed?
And if the answer is yes, what can you tell
us about him?
S6 (18:53):
Well, um. Well, the surprisingly little actually, that specifically mentions
Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd
expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh,
with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other people's, um,
various religious groups or, um, even political groups with whom
(19:13):
he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources,
not something I would think that's nothing like the the
riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself,
but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some
you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly
related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person
like mentioned, his name. But there's a lot of reference to,
you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind
(19:35):
of thing. So you do see some of that. Um,
largely what we have in terms of the understanding of
the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the
hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is
like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith.
Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss.
It also means something that happens like a an event.
(19:57):
And so the hadith are a collection, and there's like
six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions
about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um,
brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus
in such a person heard thus in such a person
say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said,
(20:18):
so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um,
and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said,
I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a
lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and
there are various versions that are spurious. There are things
that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled.
There's other things that likely did happen, but we have
(20:40):
this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have
is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real
sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150
years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they
didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral form,
and they weren't written down in any authoritative way. And
so there was compilations that had to be collected about
(21:02):
Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can,
with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person.
He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he
was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a
at least a political leader who had theological heft to
the things he was saying that gave him a religious
movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well.
(21:24):
So I think we can say that, um, so I
think we can say that with with relative relative certainty.
I don't think the same certainty exists with that claim
as does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially
Jesus and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad
was born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500
(21:44):
years after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um,
outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus,
who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years
before him. So that's just interesting all by itself.
S1 (21:58):
So much again. And I bet everybody is just as
being impacted as much as I am about information they
really didn't know before. So raises a couple of questions.
And I ask you this because this is not academic
for you. You were on a nine year journey and
there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity
of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before,
that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind
(22:19):
of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He
gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc.,
going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well,
there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of. Within
the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there
is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I
(22:41):
find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem,
because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to
affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling
block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically,
but does that make sense?
S6 (22:55):
No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually.
And I want to say that there are there are
some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius
or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the,
of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the
movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh,
like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh,
(23:17):
in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references
to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways,
but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though,
when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you
think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um,
and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more
(23:37):
information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the
same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's
this influential. We should see tons of information about him
from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do.
We have exactly. We have plenty. But we wouldn't see
the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about their
conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none.
(23:58):
He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You
have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there
to be at least something from his enemies that would
either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And
we have no, we have almost none of that.
S3 (24:12):
Wow.
S1 (24:13):
Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions.
I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean
break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us.
This is why we just love when he comes to visit.
He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he?
And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just
a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's
much more than that. If you want to become all
things to all people so that by all means, some
(24:35):
might be saved, I want to know because when I'm
sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend
or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam,
I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did
when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want
to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I
hope you are too back after this. What's the goal
(24:58):
of in the market? I'll tell you in the market
equips men and women to think critically and act biblically.
Why do we do this? So that we can be
confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are
you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner today,
and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while making
an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet 58 or
go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot.
(25:23):
Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry.
He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a
speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job.
He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand
Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a
White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He
(25:43):
contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and and
embrace the truth. He also has a podcast, which he
did recently on Jesus in Islam. Had to get that
off air. And now we go back to what he
was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting
you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder
of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that
(26:04):
precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then?
S6 (26:08):
Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I
want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, is
Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically
to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although
Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that
Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran
actually describes them as that way is that when they
(26:29):
eat of the fruit that they should not be eating,
they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's
reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're
human beings and his his not reward, but his gift
to them. Uh, instead of just casting them out of
the garden, was to give them a way back, to
come back into God's good graces, which was what's called
the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um,
(26:52):
which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh,
sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to
not only believe but also follow and that that is
consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah
to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist, uh,
(27:14):
Jesus himself and eventually Muhammad. So, technically speaking, a muslim
would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God
is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now,
having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that
the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed, but
came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption
(27:34):
that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad
is the founder of Islam in the sense that he
established a religion and was the most successful of the
prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um,
the Quran according to Muslims has never been changed and
the message has stayed the same. And he brought us
back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all
(27:56):
the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and
and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually
corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And
so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which
is why Muhammad and, you know, why is he so special? Well,
that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes,
of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very
(28:20):
first believer in Islam.
S1 (28:22):
Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this. When
we came back after the break. And let me ask
it now. Your knowledge just flows out of you on this. Abdul,
you can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran.
Is this because you studied this from a child growing up,
or did you study this, uh, to go deep into
it as you were on your nine year exploration that
(28:43):
took you to the cross?
S6 (28:44):
Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um,
I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um,
about Islam, and I actually took a lot of that
stuff and went further with it because I had sort
of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a
child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff.
It was when I was in college when I really
(29:05):
began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because
it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition
and there's a whole story behind that. But then I
began to look even more into it and alongside Christianity
and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems just to
get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um,
and so during that journey, I began to take this
deeper dive, deeper look into the foundations of the thing
(29:27):
that I had believed my whole life. I had a
foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was
developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And
is that after that nine year journey was complete and
I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to
look even further because what I wanted to do was
to make sure that one I had made the right decision.
And two, I wanted to make sure that if I,
(29:49):
if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity,
this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to do
it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the great
Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And when
you understand this stuff and you really dive into it,
you begin to be able to give a better clarity
because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I
(30:12):
have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I
preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in
my heart because of my own background. So I wanted
to learn more about them, and I think that's the
most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at
someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do
you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not.
You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys
(30:32):
who I like the detail and I like to do this.
And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey
is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on
this stuff, in formalized debates and these kind of conversations,
people bring up things you didn't necessarily know, and you
have to go and dive into it ahead of time
or in reaction to it. And so a lot of
what I know is because of that as well.
S1 (30:52):
Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong,
but my subjective observation on this is that there is,
within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I
don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in
my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk
about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know,
travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that
(31:14):
when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an
ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim,
and it has to be changed if you become a Christian,
and then that changes to a C and that doesn't
come without consequences. And so it is more than just
making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going
to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through
your official identification whose you are. But for Muslims, what
(31:37):
I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm
going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose
it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand
it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing,
and very often what I see was or what I
saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather,
and it just went down and there was no aha
moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven.
(31:59):
It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household.
That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be.
That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now,
is that an is that an obtuse observation, or is
there some truth in that?
S6 (32:13):
No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um,
there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um,
a born a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim,
and it is the world that changes you into a
Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or
a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate
sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um,
(32:39):
and then that tradition is fostered because the East and
the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture,
which has its benefits. You know, it's it's got it's
tremendous benefits. It's tremendous benefit is that you do that
which brings honor and you avoid that which brings shame, uh,
to your community and to your family and to the
country and then to the religion itself. Now, that's good
(33:01):
in one sense, because what you do is you think
of others before you think of yourself. It's not so
individualistic that you don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs,
your actions and these kind of things on others. The
shadow side. And everything's got a shadow side this side
of heaven, the shadow side is that you're willing to
believe false things, even things that you might know are false,
because believing otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes.
(33:25):
And so, yes, that is exactly. You're hitting the nail
right on the head. One of the reasons why it's
so difficult to break in to the Muslim heart and
the Muslim mind with the good news, and it is
great news, is that they see the bad news. And
the bad news is, if I accept this, I could
lose everything. I could lose my sense of community, my
sense of identity. I could lose family. I could even
(33:45):
possibly lose my life. And so oftentimes we say John
316 and it sounds so fantastic, but they're thinking all
the negative consequences. So yeah, that's you've hit it, you've
nailed it. And that's exactly what happens. It's not obtuse.
It's actually concrete. And by the way, that's not just
a middle eastern regional thing for all the Muslims that
are here in the United States and across the world,
(34:06):
whether it's in the Western world or in the Muslim world. Um,
that's a that's a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah.
I'll tell you a quick story, very short. I was
witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every
single thing I was saying is true in his own journey.
And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked
down at his shoes as if the answers to all
(34:27):
the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he
would not look up. And he said under his breath,
my father has never told me he's proud of me,
and that he loves me. And if I become a
if I become a Christian, he never will. And that
was his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part.
S1 (34:42):
Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my
eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if
anybody is as old as I am, let me give
you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying.
So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference,
and it was the middle of the conflict of the
Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw
it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't
(35:02):
have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was
talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that
symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I
don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance
of that. I remember the president kind of made some
offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that
after it happened, but it was really he was angry
at what was happening in that part of the world,
(35:24):
and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe
at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the
other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul.
And I bet my music's going to play. But let
me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful
deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you
overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone
that had to be the heaviest of all is who
(35:45):
am I going to be in this family if I
accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but
I won't be one of them. I, as a son,
do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to
my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's
choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in
my own family? Now the music's music is playing. So
(36:05):
let me get your reaction to that. And maybe this
is a blessing. Think about that. Because how often in
the United States when you decide to say yes, he's Lord,
I want him as Savior in my life? How often
do we think and it will happen? In some cases,
I grant you. But does it happen to the same
extent as it does, for example, in the Islamic and
quite honestly, in the Jewish world as well? They'll hold
(36:25):
funerals for Jews who come to faith in Jesus Christ
sometime because you're dead to me, because you came to Christ.
So this is something to think about when you're sharing
that good news that there's a price to be paid sometimes,
and we should always remember that back after this. Embrace
(36:51):
the truth. That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace
the truth. Embrace the truth. And it's one of those
deliciously rich sites with tons of information, links to books
and articles that I've written and podcasts that he does.
So check it out, please. I want you to know
and love this ministry. And germane to our conversation this
hour is I've got a direct link to a recent
(37:13):
podcast he did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot
dot dot, but not God. Question mark. And there's so
much more. By the way, it's actually a two part.
But I want you to start this, and then you're
going to be hungry enough to want to get the
second part. But I wanted to go on a very
personal level about the idea, and I thank you for
explaining this idea that there is this generational impact, this
(37:34):
deep bonds of familial connection, that you're born a muslim.
And so you, Abdou, this beautifully eloquent man for the
gospel and yet passionate about your family and a very
observant Muslim that concluded after about one minute, but nine
years of investigation and part of those deep night of
(37:55):
the soul moments had to be, God, what are you
going to do with me and my family? How did
you resolve that?
S6 (38:02):
Well, that's why it took nine years. I've often put
it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it.
And I want to sort of start the response by
this is that it took me nine years to, to
to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence
was hard to find. I found all the evidence I
needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't
find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um,
(38:24):
but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient
answers to give my life to Jesus within about two
years of that search. Um, but it took seven more
years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and
rethink it and mull it over a little bit more
to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes
all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was
(38:48):
it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was
an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going
to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um,
who was I going to be to my family and
my community? Who was I going to be? And so
how I put it is this. The answers were not
hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um,
and that's why the ministry's called that, by the way.
That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer
(39:10):
was hard to. The answers were not hard to find,
but they are hard to embrace. And so part of
our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is
to make good people wish it were true, and then
show them that it is. You show them the beauty
of it. And so it took me this long, because
I had to be so compelled that I was willing
to risk so much. For me, it just this has
(39:31):
to be true. If this is even remotely close to,
to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I
need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly
and the sort of, uh, corporeal consequences were too great. Um,
that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant
that in my mind, they were. So that's why it
took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something.
(39:53):
And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis, um,
says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself. What?
He calls himself the most reluctant convert.
S1 (40:02):
Yes.
S6 (40:03):
He says. He said. He said if you look for truth,
you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you
look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to
begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I
realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while.
But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity,
(40:23):
I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will
ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my
own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me.
And I knew that would be a despair. And when
I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that
all the things I was hoping was true in my
former worldview were actually true in the gospel message, um,
(40:46):
I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was
to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing
for him to say is, he said that the great
thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go.
His love for us does not. It is not wearied
by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is
quite relentless in its pursuit that its sorry, its determination
(41:06):
that we shall be cured of those sins at whatever
cost to us, at whatever cost to him. So I
realized something that other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know,
any other ism and schism you can think of, they
ask you to make a change, but at your expense
and your expense alone. The Christian message is that God
(41:29):
causes the change at his expense, and therefore, what cost
could I possibly pay that would that would, that would
even compare to the cost he paid for me? How
could I possibly say no to him? How could I
possibly look at that cross and say, not good enough?
I might get yelled at. I mean, how could I
(41:50):
possibly do that? And so that's that's a big part
of it, is that at some point I had to
be willing to give that up. And that's why Jesus
says so beautifully in several places and in various ways,
that you have to die to yourself. He who loses
his life for my sake will find it. Um, I
can tell you it's been 25 years, uh, since I
became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years since
(42:11):
I became a believer. And in that quarter century when
it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been the
most worth it.
S1 (42:20):
Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement
that you just made because there is this tension, because
not just your nuclear but your extended family as well.
Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or
for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can
you not supersedes the temporal?
S6 (42:40):
You know, I would be lying if I didn't say
that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan
saying something in my ear that says, just say this
and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um,
I remember distinctly in the middle of the throes of
some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by
the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh,
(43:02):
in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means
one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you
just say you are? And what you really mean is
you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave
it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no,
because that would be lying. And how could I forsake
truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I
(43:24):
couldn't do it?
S3 (43:26):
Wow. Wow.
S1 (43:27):
And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I
feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is
why I love our conversations that you can address the
the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that
take over and I hope what it's created. Number one
actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it
puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back
to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in
(43:49):
your bones. Are you willfully Volitionally asking the Lord for
opportunities to share the good news. And if not, why not?
How can you keep this good news to yourself? How
could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them?
X right. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping
that there's now more fire in your bones to go
out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed,
(44:10):
but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared.
You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit
before you talk to people. But then also, I hope
this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not
willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might
not be the sort of angst another person has to
go through before they say yes. For things like the
generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family.
(44:33):
There's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires.
And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations,
I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to
call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank
you friends. We'll see you next time on In the
market with Janet Parshall.
S7 (44:50):
Retractable claws up to 1.5in long, capable of jumping 36ft.
Aurora that can be heard five miles away. The lion
King of the beasts. Picture yourself surrounded by several. Like Daniel,
he determined to pray, though he knew he would pay.
(45:11):
Are we willing to face the lions of our culture?
Be a Daniel. A challenge for Moody Radio.
S8 (45:20):
How long have you been a part of the Moody
Radio family?
S9 (45:23):
Well, I've been listening to Moody since 1993. And, I mean,
I get up with booty, I go to bed with Moody,
and it just. It's been a blessing in my life
for all these years. The teaching and the worship. And
Moody is a station that is really rooted in the
Word of God. In the series about who is God.
S8 (45:42):
Serious about God? That's us. And we're seriously grateful for
listeners like you.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
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And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
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(01:26):
When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
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(01:46):
partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
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This is Janet Parshall, and I want to welcome you
to the best of. In the market, today's program is
prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But I
do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of The Best of
(02:08):
In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S2 (02:10):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (02:12):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (02:14):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:17):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S5 (02:20):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:38):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're
going to do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't
run screaming from the room. In other words, you often
hear me quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such
a great word picture. He refers to the Bible as
the straight stick of truth. And when you think about it,
it's brilliant, is it not because you use it as
(02:59):
a plumb line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas,
ideas that aren't in alignment with the Word of God?
I also think it's important to do this because it
helps us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing.
Don't use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell
me that it's fire in your bones and you can't
wait to share the good news with somebody else. And
(03:19):
so if you understand where someone else is coming from,
while their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture,
it helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace
filled narrative, to be able to talk to that person
about Jesus Christ. Right? So that's what we're going to
do this hour, and we're going to focus particularly in
on Islam. And our friend Abdul Murray is in the house,
just loves spending time with this man. Oh, he keeps
(03:39):
me on my toes. He makes my synapses snap the
entire hour. And I bet he does it for you too.
He's the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers
the credibility of the gospel message as a speaker and
a writer. He's authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand
Central question and his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion.
And he was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would
(04:03):
you have had the staying power to seek Jesus for
nine years? Well, this man was deeply curious and had
a hunger in his heart. So for nine years he
turned over all kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones,
theological ones, scientific ones, until he finally found himself at
the foot of the cross, accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom!
Old things pass away, all things become new. And now
this lawyer by training is an advocate for the King,
(04:26):
and he does a superb job just doing that. So
vis a vis embraced the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast.
And yeah, I'm you know, Paul says don't build on
another man's work. I'm not going to. But I'll tell
you what, I'll pick his brains, because what I listen
to on his podcast, I think, is so good that
if you're not following Embrace the Truth in their podcast,
this is a catalyst for you to get even more
interested and start listening to Abdul and his conversations on
(04:48):
a more regular basis. So he recently was talking about
Islam and what Muslims think about Jesus and Abdul. The
warmest of welcomes. You made a statement that I thought
was so interesting, and I bet it's going to challenge
anybody who's listening with both ears on the side of
their head right now. And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now,
I can't tell you. I know a whole lot of
Christians that would say Christians love Mohammed. So I don't
(05:11):
know that I can tip that back and forth and
say it's equal in either camp. But to say that
a muslim loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam,
a religion created hundreds of years after Christianity that there
would be an affinity at all for Jesus. When Mohammed
is the one true prophet to the followers of Islam.
So talk to me about the fact that they love Jesus.
(05:33):
I find that interesting and intriguing.
S6 (05:35):
Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to
be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh,
thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot
of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam
is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and
in some ways, that's actually true. There is this sense
in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor
(05:56):
to religions that are already established in the Middle East,
like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was,
was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh,
in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists.
It's a God is greater. In other words, God is
greater than the things you guys say about him because
you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's
(06:19):
a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade
of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that
sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and
a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah,
all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus,
they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love
(06:42):
him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran
has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's called
Surat Maryam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran.
Maryam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so
the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary
and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary,
(07:03):
from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as
a prophet of God who warned people to come back
to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact,
they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he
actually preached Islam. Um, to return to the dietary and
other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally and
(07:24):
to get away from any kind of paganism or other
kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had
gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered
him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus
performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least
of which is his virgin birth, but also that as
a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh,
(07:46):
sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's
honor that he was, in fact a gift of God,
not the result of some sort of tawdry thing she
had done. Um, and he, uh, heals the sick. He
even raises the dead, um, and does all these things.
So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one
of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's
(08:07):
a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of
Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So
for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they
love Jesus.
S1 (08:17):
Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So
you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles.
Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles?
S6 (08:27):
So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand
of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle
that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic
office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad
was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him
the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate,
(08:48):
and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and
content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man.
It had to be a miraculous revelation to him. In fact,
they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship of the Quran.
They'd say it's completely God that he was not inspired. Rather,
(09:09):
he heard words and he simply said what he heard.
So he is like this mouthpiece. But other than that,
according to strict Islam, there are no miracles. Now, there
are some folk areas of Islam where there are miracles,
but strictly speaking, there are none attributed to Muhammad other
than the Quran itself.
S1 (09:24):
Wow, I bet you just heard a boatload of things
you never heard before. That's why I love spending time
with Abdul. He's such a great teacher. We are going
to continue to talk about what our Muslim friends think
about Jesus. I think it's important for us to understand,
and I think it also equips us when we're loving
our Muslim neighbors. And we want to share the good
news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again,
I've got a link to embrace the truth so much.
(09:47):
Excellent resource material there and a podcast dealing specifically with this.
I've got a link in my info page as well.
Much more with Abdu Murray right after this. Have you
(10:08):
ever wondered why music moves us so deeply, or why
beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month
is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of
wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have you ever wondered?
Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary
biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever
wondered when you give a gift of any amount in
the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58
(10:30):
or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Is
with us for the entire hour. We always look forward
to our regular conversations with him. He is president of
Embrace the Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things
he does through his ministries. He's got a fabulous podcast.
So he had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam, Prophet, Messiah,
(10:52):
but not God. Question mark. And so we're doing a
side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the
first part of our conversation, and I bet you have
as well. So let me pick up where we left off.
So I find this interesting and and I wonder if
in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension
or it's just moving past it, because the singular role
of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does
(11:15):
miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad
has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up
being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think,
and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective,
I would think someone who could do miracles would already,
in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my
(11:36):
attention over someone who was not. Is that not a
tension in the Islamic world?
S6 (11:40):
Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the
reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran actually attributed
to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So,
as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically
say Muhammad performed some miracles. In fact, there are several
places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is um, uh,
where there is a um, I'm looking it up real quick.
(12:03):
There is a section, there's a couple of verses where
the Quran says, for example, in, um, the 13th chapter,
seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some
sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um,
in other words, if only there was something that we
could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only
a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come
(12:27):
back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various commentators
who made a point that there is no there is
no miracle story in the Quran except for these vague references,
for example, in the 17th chapter, uh, verse one, um,
there is this reference to what's called a mirage, which
is basically a night journey where, um, according to Muslim tradition, uh,
(12:51):
Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all
the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock
is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims.
And he was taken there in a single night by
a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the
only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17,
where it says, uh, glory to God who took his
servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant
(13:12):
for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to
the farthest mosque, whose precincts we blessed in order that
we might show him some of our signs or some
of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's
no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from
chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said
that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say
that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about
(13:33):
Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he looked,
took his finger in the sky, and he traced out
the moon and he split the moon with his finger. Now,
that is not considered necessarily a strong claim or evidence,
but because of the tension you just mentioned, a lot
of these, um, a lot of these miracles have to
be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most recent prophet before
(13:57):
him was Jesus, and he did a bunch of miracles.
He was born of a virgin, and in fact was
an even greater tension is that the Quran refers to
Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer to Muhammad that
way or anybody else, frankly, as that way. In fact,
Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort of implied way,
for forgiveness at the end of his life.
S1 (14:16):
The tension just keeps growing. So and again, thank you
for that superb explanation about that. Because if again hierarchical
just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus does miracles,
Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless. Jesus is.
And yet you decide, if I can put it this way,
to go to a lesser God. I find that interesting
(14:38):
to me. So what is the attractiveness if the things
that Jesus can do, um, are not identified or affirmed
in Qur'anic writing, why would one then subscribe to Muhammad
as opposed to Jesus?
S6 (14:52):
Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is
just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one
of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad had a
tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically, and he was
an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this
growing movement of Muhammad amongst, uh, the pagan Arabs of
the time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop
(15:12):
doing that. Um, he had a, a political affinity, uh,
or even a theological affinity to a degree with Christians
and Jews in the beginning of his prophetic career, as
it were. Um, by saying, Christians and Jews, we all
believe in the same God. And I affirm your prophets
and all these things. And so some were converting to Islam, uh,
by by choice, not necessarily by force. Uh, it was
(15:36):
when they began to resist him, because he was claiming
an office that was at least as good, if not
higher than Jesus, that he, the Quran, starts to turn
on them, and Muhammad starts to turn on them and
say that Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures.
It's actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So
you have this political charismatic thing, but then later on,
I think what happens is, is you have this sociological development,
(15:58):
and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't
have necessarily a historical according to Hoyle, this is how
this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it,
based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad
is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially,
specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is.
He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people in
(16:22):
light of the the Jews and the Romans of the
time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they had
prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes an
Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line, the
line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith. And
so this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to have this
affinity for him, there has to be a loyalty and
(16:45):
a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality, because
even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says we
make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction.
They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the
last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not
greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater.
Yet Muslims will take great offense if someone makes fun
(17:08):
of Muhammad but not Jesus, they're fine with Jesus being
made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because
there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on
ethnicity and sociology.
S1 (17:19):
Boy, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay,
this isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so
there's a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that has
to be played around this when we come back. Abdul,
I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet
there are a whole lot of people who could say, well,
I didn't even know if Muhammad was real. Tell me
(17:40):
a little bit about his biography that he is a historical,
historically substantiated person that was in history. Tell me something
about his background. Abdul Murray is with us. The purpose
of all of this is to get fire in your
bones so you can share Jesus with your Muslim friends
back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray, president of
(18:02):
Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way. Let
me run some titles past you again. Saving truth, Grand
central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book,
More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a
great podcast as well. All of that can be found
at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to
the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I
(18:24):
guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth.
So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly
what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I
was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity
of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence. And
all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdu,
about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the
(18:46):
parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed?
And if the answer is yes, what can you tell
us about him?
S6 (18:53):
Well, um. Well, the surprisingly little actually, that specifically mentions
Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd
expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh,
with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other people's, um,
various religious groups or, um, even political groups with whom
(19:13):
he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources,
not something I would think that's nothing like the the
riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself,
but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some
you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly
related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person
like mentioned, his name. But there's a lot of reference to,
you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind
(19:35):
of thing. So you do see some of that. Um,
largely what we have in terms of the understanding of
the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the
hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is
like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith.
Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss.
It also means something that happens like a an event.
(19:57):
And so the hadith are a collection, and there's like
six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions
about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um,
brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus
in such a person heard thus in such a person
say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said,
(20:18):
so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um,
and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said,
I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a
lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and
there are various versions that are spurious. There are things
that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled.
There's other things that likely did happen, but we have
(20:40):
this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have
is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real
sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150
years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they
didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral form,
and they weren't written down in any authoritative way. And
so there was compilations that had to be collected about
(21:02):
Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can,
with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person.
He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he
was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a
at least a political leader who had theological heft to
the things he was saying that gave him a religious
movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well.
(21:24):
So I think we can say that, um, so I
think we can say that with with relative relative certainty.
I don't think the same certainty exists with that claim
as does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially
Jesus and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad
was born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500
(21:44):
years after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um,
outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus,
who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years
before him. So that's just interesting all by itself.
S1 (21:58):
So much again. And I bet everybody is just as
being impacted as much as I am about information they
really didn't know before. So raises a couple of questions.
And I ask you this because this is not academic
for you. You were on a nine year journey and
there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity
of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before,
that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind
(22:19):
of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He
gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc.,
going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well,
there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of. Within
the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there
is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I
(22:41):
find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem,
because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to
affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling
block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically,
but does that make sense?
S6 (22:55):
No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually.
And I want to say that there are there are
some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius
or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the,
of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the
movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh,
like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh,
(23:17):
in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references
to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways,
but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though,
when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you
think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um,
and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more
(23:37):
information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the
same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's
this influential. We should see tons of information about him
from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do.
We have exactly. We have plenty. But we wouldn't see
the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about their
conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none.
(23:58):
He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You
have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there
to be at least something from his enemies that would
either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And
we have no, we have almost none of that.
S3 (24:12):
Wow.
S1 (24:13):
Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions.
I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean
break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us.
This is why we just love when he comes to visit.
He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he?
And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just
a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's
much more than that. If you want to become all
things to all people so that by all means, some
(24:35):
might be saved, I want to know because when I'm
sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend
or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam,
I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did
when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want
to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I
hope you are too back after this. What's the goal
(24:58):
of in the market? I'll tell you in the market
equips men and women to think critically and act biblically.
Why do we do this? So that we can be
confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are
you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner today,
and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while making
an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet 58 or
go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot.
(25:23):
Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry.
He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a
speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job.
He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand
Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a
White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He
(25:43):
contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and and
embrace the truth. He also has a podcast, which he
did recently on Jesus in Islam. Had to get that
off air. And now we go back to what he
was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting
you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder
of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that
(26:04):
precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then?
S6 (26:08):
Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I
want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, is
Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically
to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although
Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that
Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran
actually describes them as that way is that when they
(26:29):
eat of the fruit that they should not be eating,
they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's
reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're
human beings and his his not reward, but his gift
to them. Uh, instead of just casting them out of
the garden, was to give them a way back, to
come back into God's good graces, which was what's called
the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um,
(26:52):
which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh,
sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to
not only believe but also follow and that that is
consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah
to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist, uh,
(27:14):
Jesus himself and eventually Muhammad. So, technically speaking, a muslim
would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God
is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now,
having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that
the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed, but
came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption
(27:34):
that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad
is the founder of Islam in the sense that he
established a religion and was the most successful of the
prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um,
the Quran according to Muslims has never been changed and
the message has stayed the same. And he brought us
back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all
(27:56):
the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and
and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually
corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And
so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which
is why Muhammad and, you know, why is he so special? Well,
that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes,
of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very
(28:20):
first believer in Islam.
S1 (28:22):
Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this. When
we came back after the break. And let me ask
it now. Your knowledge just flows out of you on this. Abdul,
you can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran.
Is this because you studied this from a child growing up,
or did you study this, uh, to go deep into
it as you were on your nine year exploration that
(28:43):
took you to the cross?
S6 (28:44):
Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um,
I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um,
about Islam, and I actually took a lot of that
stuff and went further with it because I had sort
of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a
child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff.
It was when I was in college when I really
(29:05):
began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because
it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition
and there's a whole story behind that. But then I
began to look even more into it and alongside Christianity
and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems just to
get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um,
and so during that journey, I began to take this
deeper dive, deeper look into the foundations of the thing
(29:27):
that I had believed my whole life. I had a
foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was
developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And
is that after that nine year journey was complete and
I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to
look even further because what I wanted to do was
to make sure that one I had made the right decision.
And two, I wanted to make sure that if I,
(29:49):
if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity,
this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to do
it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the great
Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And when
you understand this stuff and you really dive into it,
you begin to be able to give a better clarity
because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I
(30:12):
have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I
preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in
my heart because of my own background. So I wanted
to learn more about them, and I think that's the
most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at
someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do
you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not.
You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys
(30:32):
who I like the detail and I like to do this.
And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey
is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on
this stuff, in formalized debates and these kind of conversations,
people bring up things you didn't necessarily know, and you
have to go and dive into it ahead of time
or in reaction to it. And so a lot of
what I know is because of that as well.
S1 (30:52):
Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong,
but my subjective observation on this is that there is,
within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I
don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in
my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk
about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know,
travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that
(31:14):
when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an
ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim,
and it has to be changed if you become a Christian,
and then that changes to a C and that doesn't
come without consequences. And so it is more than just
making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going
to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through
your official identification whose you are. But for Muslims, what
(31:37):
I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm
going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose
it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand
it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing,
and very often what I see was or what I
saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather,
and it just went down and there was no aha
moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven.
(31:59):
It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household.
That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be.
That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now,
is that an is that an obtuse observation, or is
there some truth in that?
S6 (32:13):
No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um,
there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um,
a born a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim,
and it is the world that changes you into a
Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or
a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate
sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um,
(32:39):
and then that tradition is fostered because the East and
the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture,
which has its benefits. You know, it's it's got it's
tremendous benefits. It's tremendous benefit is that you do that
which brings honor and you avoid that which brings shame, uh,
to your community and to your family and to the
country and then to the religion itself. Now, that's good
(33:01):
in one sense, because what you do is you think
of others before you think of yourself. It's not so
individualistic that you don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs,
your actions and these kind of things on others. The
shadow side. And everything's got a shadow side this side
of heaven, the shadow side is that you're willing to
believe false things, even things that you might know are false,
because believing otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes.
(33:25):
And so, yes, that is exactly. You're hitting the nail
right on the head. One of the reasons why it's
so difficult to break in to the Muslim heart and
the Muslim mind with the good news, and it is
great news, is that they see the bad news. And
the bad news is, if I accept this, I could
lose everything. I could lose my sense of community, my
sense of identity. I could lose family. I could even
(33:45):
possibly lose my life. And so oftentimes we say John
316 and it sounds so fantastic, but they're thinking all
the negative consequences. So yeah, that's you've hit it, you've
nailed it. And that's exactly what happens. It's not obtuse.
It's actually concrete. And by the way, that's not just
a middle eastern regional thing for all the Muslims that
are here in the United States and across the world,
(34:06):
whether it's in the Western world or in the Muslim world. Um,
that's a that's a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah.
I'll tell you a quick story, very short. I was
witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every
single thing I was saying is true in his own journey.
And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked
down at his shoes as if the answers to all
(34:27):
the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he
would not look up. And he said under his breath,
my father has never told me he's proud of me,
and that he loves me. And if I become a
if I become a Christian, he never will. And that
was his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part.
S1 (34:42):
Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my
eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if
anybody is as old as I am, let me give
you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying.
So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference,
and it was the middle of the conflict of the
Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw
it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't
(35:02):
have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was
talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that
symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I
don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance
of that. I remember the president kind of made some
offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that
after it happened, but it was really he was angry
at what was happening in that part of the world,
(35:24):
and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe
at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the
other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul.
And I bet my music's going to play. But let
me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful
deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you
overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone
that had to be the heaviest of all is who
(35:45):
am I going to be in this family if I
accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but
I won't be one of them. I, as a son,
do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to
my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's
choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in
my own family? Now the music's music is playing. So
(36:05):
let me get your reaction to that. And maybe this
is a blessing. Think about that. Because how often in
the United States when you decide to say yes, he's Lord,
I want him as Savior in my life? How often
do we think and it will happen? In some cases,
I grant you. But does it happen to the same
extent as it does, for example, in the Islamic and
quite honestly, in the Jewish world as well? They'll hold
(36:25):
funerals for Jews who come to faith in Jesus Christ
sometime because you're dead to me, because you came to Christ.
So this is something to think about when you're sharing
that good news that there's a price to be paid sometimes,
and we should always remember that back after this. Embrace
(36:51):
the truth. That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace
the truth. Embrace the truth. And it's one of those
deliciously rich sites with tons of information, links to books
and articles that I've written and podcasts that he does.
So check it out, please. I want you to know
and love this ministry. And germane to our conversation this
hour is I've got a direct link to a recent
(37:13):
podcast he did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot
dot dot, but not God. Question mark. And there's so
much more. By the way, it's actually a two part.
But I want you to start this, and then you're
going to be hungry enough to want to get the
second part. But I wanted to go on a very
personal level about the idea, and I thank you for
explaining this idea that there is this generational impact, this
(37:34):
deep bonds of familial connection, that you're born a muslim.
And so you, Abdou, this beautifully eloquent man for the
gospel and yet passionate about your family and a very
observant Muslim that concluded after about one minute, but nine
years of investigation and part of those deep night of
(37:55):
the soul moments had to be, God, what are you
going to do with me and my family? How did
you resolve that?
S6 (38:02):
Well, that's why it took nine years. I've often put
it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it.
And I want to sort of start the response by
this is that it took me nine years to, to
to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence
was hard to find. I found all the evidence I
needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't
find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um,
(38:24):
but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient
answers to give my life to Jesus within about two
years of that search. Um, but it took seven more
years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and
rethink it and mull it over a little bit more
to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes
all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was
(38:48):
it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was
an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going
to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um,
who was I going to be to my family and
my community? Who was I going to be? And so
how I put it is this. The answers were not
hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um,
and that's why the ministry's called that, by the way.
That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer
(39:10):
was hard to. The answers were not hard to find,
but they are hard to embrace. And so part of
our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is
to make good people wish it were true, and then
show them that it is. You show them the beauty
of it. And so it took me this long, because
I had to be so compelled that I was willing
to risk so much. For me, it just this has
(39:31):
to be true. If this is even remotely close to,
to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I
need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly
and the sort of, uh, corporeal consequences were too great. Um,
that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant
that in my mind, they were. So that's why it
took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something.
(39:53):
And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis, um,
says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself. What?
He calls himself the most reluctant convert.
S1 (40:02):
Yes.
S6 (40:03):
He says. He said. He said if you look for truth,
you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you
look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to
begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I
realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while.
But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity,
(40:23):
I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will
ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my
own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me.
And I knew that would be a despair. And when
I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that
all the things I was hoping was true in my
former worldview were actually true in the gospel message, um,
(40:46):
I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was
to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing
for him to say is, he said that the great
thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go.
His love for us does not. It is not wearied
by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is
quite relentless in its pursuit that its sorry, its determination
(41:06):
that we shall be cured of those sins at whatever
cost to us, at whatever cost to him. So I
realized something that other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know,
any other ism and schism you can think of, they
ask you to make a change, but at your expense
and your expense alone. The Christian message is that God
(41:29):
causes the change at his expense, and therefore, what cost
could I possibly pay that would that would, that would
even compare to the cost he paid for me? How
could I possibly say no to him? How could I
possibly look at that cross and say, not good enough?
I might get yelled at. I mean, how could I
(41:50):
possibly do that? And so that's that's a big part
of it, is that at some point I had to
be willing to give that up. And that's why Jesus
says so beautifully in several places and in various ways,
that you have to die to yourself. He who loses
his life for my sake will find it. Um, I
can tell you it's been 25 years, uh, since I
became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years since
(42:11):
I became a believer. And in that quarter century when
it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been the
most worth it.
S1 (42:20):
Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement
that you just made because there is this tension, because
not just your nuclear but your extended family as well.
Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or
for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can
you not supersedes the temporal?
S6 (42:40):
You know, I would be lying if I didn't say
that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan
saying something in my ear that says, just say this
and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um,
I remember distinctly in the middle of the throes of
some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by
the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh,
(43:02):
in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means
one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you
just say you are? And what you really mean is
you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave
it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no,
because that would be lying. And how could I forsake
truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I
(43:24):
couldn't do it?
S3 (43:26):
Wow. Wow.
S1 (43:27):
And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I
feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is
why I love our conversations that you can address the
the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that
take over and I hope what it's created. Number one
actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it
puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back
to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in
(43:49):
your bones. Are you willfully Volitionally asking the Lord for
opportunities to share the good news. And if not, why not?
How can you keep this good news to yourself? How
could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them?
X right. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping
that there's now more fire in your bones to go
out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed,
(44:10):
but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared.
You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit
before you talk to people. But then also, I hope
this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not
willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might
not be the sort of angst another person has to
go through before they say yes. For things like the
generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family.
(44:33):
There's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires.
And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations,
I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to
call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank
you friends. We'll see you next time on In the
market with Janet Parshall.
S7 (44:50):
Retractable claws up to 1.5in long, capable of jumping 36ft.
Aurora that can be heard five miles away. The lion
King of the beasts. Picture yourself surrounded by several. Like Daniel,
he determined to pray, though he knew he would pay.
(45:11):
Are we willing to face the lions of our culture?
Be a Daniel. A challenge for Moody Radio.
S8 (45:20):
How long have you been a part of the Moody
Radio family?
S9 (45:23):
Well, I've been listening to Moody since 1993. And, I mean,
I get up with booty, I go to bed with Moody,
and it just. It's been a blessing in my life
for all these years. The teaching and the worship. And
Moody is a station that is really rooted in the
Word of God. In the series about who is God.
S8 (45:42):
Serious about God? That's us. And we're seriously grateful for
listeners like you.
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