October 2, 2025 • 45 mins
Is it possible that reality can be perceived most clearly with the eyes of faith? Join us to hear a best-selling author and Emmy-winning journalist who used to be an atheist---until science changed his mind! Dr. Michael Guillen argues for an enlightened worldview consistent with both God and modern science, he shares the story of his journey to Christianity. Don’t miss this fascinating conversation.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
of In the Market with Janet Parshall, and it is
my most sincere hope that you are edified, equipped, enlightened,
encouraged and then it makes you just want to get
out there in the marketplace of ideas and influence and
occupy until he comes. But before you start listening, let
me just take a moment of your time to tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Steadfast
Love of the Lord by my friend and frequent guest,
(00:22):
Doctor Sam Storms. You know, he tells us that so
often we struggle with this idea of feeling like we're
loved by God, or that somehow we've done something that
separates us from the love of God. But we fail
to remember the Scripture that reminds us that while we
were yet sinners, not perfect, not all put together, not
everything's all been worked out while we were yet sinners.
That's when Christ died. For us. Love is an action word,
(00:44):
and that's what Doctor Sam Storms reminds us in his book,
The Steadfast Love of God. I don't know about you,
but with the headlines of the day, being reminded of
who God is is about the most precious news I
could hear on a regular basis. And I'd love for
you to have a copy written by a man who
understands the Bible and always delivers rich theology. So just
call 877 Janet 58. When you give a gift of
(01:05):
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go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Same thing.
Scroll down on the page. You'll see the cover of
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make Your Donation and we'll send it to you again.
(01:27):
Listener supported. And when you give a gift, it keeps
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(01:50):
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So 877 Janet 58 877 Janet 58 or online at
In the Market with Janet. When you're on the website,
scroll to the bottom. Click on the cover of the
book and it'll walk you through the rest. Thanks so much!
And now with all my heart, I hope you hear
(02:10):
something today that really changes your perspective and makes you
excited about being a follower of Jesus Christ. Enjoy the program!
S2 (02:18):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (02:20):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (02:22):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (02:25):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S6 (02:28):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:31):
Is not the way. Hi friends.
S1 (02:47):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am
thrilled we're going to spend the hour together because I
hope we will slay once and for all the mythology
that says you have a multiple choice test. It is
either faith or reason that science and religion are at
war with one another. That is one or the other,
but the two are mutually exclusive and cannot happily co-exist. Listen,
(03:09):
I'm coming to you from the shadow of the nation's capital.
We are a town of demonstrations, as you've probably picked
up a time or two, and I've seen them march
down the main street in Washington, D.C., carrying signs that
say I believe in science, which immediately makes me as
a follower of Jesus Christ, go. Does that mean I don't?
Is it an either or proposition? I think not. And
I think after this hour you're going to hear from
(03:31):
a man with all the credentials, all the initials possible
after his name, all of the cred, as they say.
And you're going to understand that he says believing is
in fact, seeing. Let me tell you who our guest is.
Doctor Michael Gillon is our guest. He's a graduate of
UCLA and Cornell, and he holds degrees in physics, math
and astronomy students. That means he did his homework on
(03:51):
a regular basis. He's a former science correspondent for ABC news.
He was also a physics instructor at Harvard for eight years,
host of the History Channel series Where Did It Come From?
And producer of the award winning family movie little Red wagon,
which you can watch right now on Amazon Prime if
you want. He hosts the weekly podcast Science Plus God
with doctor G, and that gets sponsored by K-Love and
(04:13):
Air1 radio networks. And as if he didn't have anything
else to do, he runs a film and television production company.
And he joins us because in his spare time, he's
written the book Believing Is Seeing. A physicist explains how
science shattered his atheism and revealed the necessity of faith. Michael.
What a joy to have you with us. Thank you.
(04:34):
You understand this? As someone who understands physics, I can't
give you back this hour of time. You're giving it
to us. And I so appreciate it. Thank you.
S7 (04:41):
Thank you.
S8 (04:42):
Hi, Janet. It is just my absolute joy to be
with you again. It's been way too long. And thank
you for inviting me on the show.
S1 (04:51):
I'm thrilled you're back again. Michael. Thank you so, so much.
Talk to me about your childhood growing up because it's
clear you have a love of science. Did that love
manifest itself early in your life?
S8 (05:03):
In the second grade. Wow. And, um, you know what?
That makes me seven years old. And what made it
particularly odd, Janet, is that, you know, I. I was
born in East Los Angeles on the wrong side of
the tracks, which meant that I had never met a
scientist in my life. You know, you could understand it
if I had run into a scientist, either in my
(05:25):
family or outside the family who somehow inspired me. But
that's not how it happened with me. It just, I,
I can't honestly, I can't remember a day when I
wasn't head over heels in love with science. And so
that obviously, uh, mystified me for a while looking back.
Of course, I now give credit where credit is due.
I do believe that God, uh, placed that love in
(05:48):
my heart because he knew, um, that we would reach
this point in our history when science became kind of the,
I don't know, the new savior of the world. You know,
kids are growing up today. I have a Gen Z son. Uh,
he's he just turned 22. Now, you think about it.
His generation, the Gen Z generation, they've they've grown up
(06:10):
thinking of science as the miracle worker. You know, this
generation hasn't read the Bible. They don't think about God.
All the polls indicate that, uh, so they've grown up,
you know, reading the headlines that science is giving sight
to the blind, uh, is helping the lame to walk,
is helping barren women to have children. So it's not
(06:32):
for this generation. Jesus is not the miracle worker. It's science.
And so I believe that many years ago, when I
was a, you know, seven year old kid growing up
in East LA, uh, God knew it. And I am
now in the eye of the storm. Janet, I, uh,
and I'm simultaneously excited, but I'm also appalled at what
(06:52):
I see going on right now. I'm excited because God
has given me the credentials and God has prepared me
for this moment. But I'm appalled at what has happened,
even to my own beloved science.
S1 (07:03):
I so resonate with that dual response. But let me
just encourage you as a sister in the Lord, it's
so clear that God has called you for such a
time as this, because C.S. Lewis talked about this. He
talked about the ascendancy, and he used the word scientism,
which exactly as you just said, that's where all truth
could be found would be in scientism. But let me
go back a little bit to those barrios where you
were growing up. You never met a scientist, but clearly
(07:25):
God was giving you the desires of your heart because
he had prepared a plan for you you didn't yet
know about. But where were you spiritually? What kind of
family did you grow up spiritually in?
S8 (07:35):
Well, that's what really makes my story particularly odd, because
my father and both my grandfathers were Spanish speaking Pentecostal ministers. And, uh,
you know, my my father was born in Texas. So
was my paternal grandfather, but my maternal grandfather was born
(07:57):
in Guadalajara, Mexico, and he married a woman from Cuba.
My my grandmother, we called her Titi. She, uh, she
fled from Cuba because of communism and met this Mexican
man and married him. And they had my mother. Uh,
she was the oldest of eight children. Can you imagine, Janet? Mm.
(08:19):
So I grew up in a household where we went
to church, you know, like seven days a week. You know, people,
you know, it wasn't just like, hey, let's go to
church on Sunday. It was like. It was like a
week long affair. And. And when we would go to church,
you know, the sermons went on and on and on.
(08:40):
I mean, you know, like, it wasn't unusual to have
a one or a two hour sermon. And of course, uh,
being Hispanic is I did the calculation. Janet. I have
to chuckle, but I can't help myself. I'm a scientist.
So one day I just did the calculation on on
5/8 Mexican, 2/8 Cuban and Spanish and one eighth Austrian.
Now go figure. I don't know where that snuck in,
(09:01):
but there you go. One eighth Austrian. But, you know, uh,
we were very big on discipline in my family. And
so we didn't sit still and listen to that sermon,
whether it was my dad preaching or some other person preaching,
you know, my mother would reach over and pinch us. And, uh,
so that was my that was my upbringing. It was
particularly odd. But now I'm perfectly positioned to have this
(09:23):
conversation with you.
S1 (09:25):
Isn't that the truth? Exactly. Wow. Well, when we come back,
I want to know what it was like to get
into UCLA. And I want to pick up the story there.
I love these kinds of stories, because it really just
belies the mythology that it's an either or option. It
is not by any stretch of the imagination. Listen, if
Scripture tells us that the heavens are declaring the glory
of God and he asks us, were we there when
(09:47):
he formed the ocean? And who controls the wind? I'm
pretty sure those are scientific questions, and God's letting us
know he's in charge. That believing is in reality. In
reality seeing. That's what Doctor Michael Gillen says. We're just
getting started with our conversation more after this. If you've
(10:15):
ever felt unworthy of God's love, we need to remember
that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
That's why I've chosen the steadfast love of the Lord
as this month's truth tool. Unworthiness doesn't disqualify you from
God's love. It magnifies it. As for your copy of
The Steadfast Love of the Lord, when you give a
gift of any amount in the market, call 877 Janet 58.
That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market
(10:38):
with Janet Parshall. Don't you love conversations like the one
we're having? You know, the Bible tells us that if
we seek him, we will find him. If we seek
him with all our heart, he will be found. And
then he tells us and tells us and tells us
again that he's there, pursuing us. Believing is seeing. A
physicist explains how science shattered his atheism and revealed the
(11:00):
necessity of faith. That's Doctor Michael Gillan's brand new book. Oh,
if you know anybody for whom this is a conflict
in their life, I want you to get it and
share it with them, because this journey will open their
eyes as well. So, Michael, when you go to UCLA,
you talk about your very unique background. At what point?
And I'm using the word that you use to self
describe you get to the campus of UCLA. Not an
(11:22):
easy school to get into while you're there. You're studying
physics and math and astronomy. All high sciences take a
whole lot of brain power. Would you have categorized yourself
as an atheist prior to coming to campus or while
you were at campus?
S8 (11:38):
Well, that's a good question. Um, let me let me
answer it this way, Janet, because it's the most honest
way to answer it. Ah, during all those years of
being a kid growing up in a Spanish speaking Pentecostal home,
going to church seven days a week, I never really
owned the faith. I didn't really understand it as a child.
(12:01):
I didn't care to understand it. Uh, honestly, uh, we
had a tradition in the church we went to where
the kids would go down to the basement for a
little Sunday school lesson, and then we would all be
lined up and brought back up stairs to the main sanctuary.
And my main preoccupation at that point was to be
(12:22):
at the head of the line. Why? Because I wanted
to be to the first to get to the drum set. Uh,
we had a little kind of a, you know, musical
grouping up front, and I just really wanted to play
the drums. That's all I cared about. So, you know,
Jesus and the Bible, it went in one year. It
went in one year and out the other year. And
(12:42):
I think that is a lesson for a lot of
parents today that just because you take your kid to
church doesn't mean they're absorbing the faith. And in my case,
I think it may have actually had the opposite effect,
because by the time I went to UCLA and then
went on to Cornell, where I got my PhD in physics,
math and astronomy, I was, for all intents and purposes,
(13:06):
an atheist, I got by which I mean, God wasn't
on my radar. I didn't care about God. I didn't
care to know about God. He didn't influence my decisions.
The only thing that mattered to me, Janet, and I
can't overemphasize this enough, is science. I by the time
(13:29):
I got to Cornell for grad school. So I graduated
from UCLA with my BS in physics and math and
went to Ithaca, New York, uh, and began really my
years of being what I call a scientific monk. And
I mean that Literally because I slept on the average
(13:49):
of three hours a day, typically from three in the
morning till about six in the morning. Okay. And I
would have not even slept those three hours if I
could possibly stand it. And I begrudged those three hours.
I begrudged having to eat. I took very little time
to groom myself. I didn't know because my lab, which
(14:09):
I spent, you know, the other 20, 21 hours, when
the three hours I wasn't sleeping, I spent either in
my basement lab or in the classroom. And because it
was a basement lab, it had no windows. I didn't
know if it was day or night. I didn't particularly care.
I went there seven days a week. Sunday, for me,
wasn't anything special. It was just another day. So I
(14:30):
don't know. Yes, I was an atheist, I think from,
I don't know, from, from a very young age. And
it really wasn't until maybe my second year In grad
school that I began asking questions. And, you know, one
(14:52):
of my one of my favorite verses in the Bible
is the first one. Very simple. In the beginning, God
created the heavens and the earth. You see, if you
don't understand or believe that, just close the Bible because
you're not going to believe or understand anything else the
Bible has to say to you. And when I was
(15:15):
at Cornell, I didn't believe that I didn't particularly care
to understand it. I hadn't really read the Bible. I'd
heard about the Bible naturally growing up in the church.
But again, I didn't own it. It didn't. That wasn't
my faith. That was my parents faith. And I went
there out of obedience because I had no choice. What
kid has a choice? And, um, but in the second
(15:39):
year of my grad school, um, I began questioning how
this universe of ours had come to be, because by
then you have to understand. The second year of grad school,
I had learned that the universe appears to be wired
for life, and we can have that discussion if you wish.
Down the line. But when I say that, I mean
(16:01):
that literally. We discovered that the universe appears to be
wired for life. I shouldn't even say appears to be
is wired for life. Okay. And we can elaborate on that.
And number two, I learned that the universe is mostly
invisible about 95. We estimate today that about 95% of
(16:21):
the universe is invisible to us. It's in the form
of what we call dark energy, dark matter, black holes.
And by the way, the terms dark energy and dark
matter are just placeholders. We don't know what that is.
It's just our way of saying, hey, we can't see it. Okay,
so in second year of grad school, I started pondering that.
It's like, wow, okay, well, I've already discovered that the
(16:43):
universe is beautiful through and through, from the microscopic to
the astronomical levels. It's designed for life, and it's mostly invisible.
This is. Is this, like, really an accident? Could this
amazing universe really be an accident? And I started doubting it,
I started I. Is it possible for an atheist to
doubt atheism? Yes. I'm proof, I'm proof. How was it
(17:07):
doubting atheist? Right. Because, look, the science and the math
applied to try to describe the origins of the universe
are beautiful. The equations are magnificent. You look at Einstein's
field equations of general relativity. To this day, it's one
of my. It's the most beautiful thing on earth. It's
like a work of art. You don't need to understand
(17:29):
Einstein's field equation to appreciate it as a work of art.
And so that questioning is what started me on my
spiritual journey. And the rest is history.
S1 (17:40):
Wow. And it is that part of your history that
I want to examine. Absolutely. Fascinating. So there is Michael
with rigorous academic, uh, well, athleticism, if I can put
it that way, is absolutely throwing himself into advanced sciences, physics, mathematics, astronomy.
But all of a sudden the form, the order, the shape,
(18:01):
the perfection, not chaos. The Scripture says God is not
the author of confusion, but order is being found. Is
this what led him to be able to say that
believing is, in fact, seeing more with Doctor Michael Gillen
right after this? Bestselling author Doctor Michael Gillen is with us.
(18:26):
He tells his story of his spiritual journey in his
new book called Believing Is Seeing. A physicist explains how
science shattered his atheism and revealed the necessity of faith.
So I want to go right back to the. The
rest of it is history. I love this so with
the same sort of scrutiny and intense commitment to seeking answers.
As you were working on your 3D PhD in physics,
(18:48):
mathematics and astronomy, you didn't have to ask whether science
and religion were at conflict. Those questions started to raise
on their own volition. You started looking around. You talked
about Einstein's field equation. So, Michael, tell me more about
this journey. I mean, there are things we don't know,
which I think is absolutely fascinating. And that's why I
think Scripture calls some of this a mystery. But there
(19:08):
are things we can never know. As you said before,
black holes, black matter are simply placeholders. We don't know
what they are. But talk to me about your search
for finding the answer in the world of religion.
S8 (19:19):
So there I was, a second year grad student at Cornell. This,
you know, unkempt, Uber geeky scientific monk who's still head
over heels in love with science and nothing more. I mean,
literally nothing more. And I'm asking the question of myself
(19:42):
as an intellectual, as an atheist. How did this amazing,
mostly invisible universe of ours come to be? A universe
that's wired for life? And I started by realizing that, wow,
I've been living by the motto seeing is believing. Many
people do. It seems very logical. You know, I'm not
(20:02):
going to believe it unless I see it. And I
knew I had to ditch that right away. Why? Because
if the universe is 95% invisible, then if if I'm
living by if I'm insisting that the only thing I'm
going to believe in is what I can see, then
I've got to. Then I've got to ditch 95% of
the universe. I can't believe that it exists because I
(20:22):
can't see it. So I knew I was in trouble
right off the bat as an intellectual. And I remember
one of my professors was Carl Sagan, a very famous astronomer,
and he was just getting to be famous. He was
going on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And he
was doing the he was getting ready to host the
(20:43):
cosmos series on PBS, getting a lot of buzz. Well,
I was there in the eye of the storm, and
I took classes from Carl. One of them being in Exobiology,
which is the study of life outside the Earth. It
was a fascinating course, and you can imagine being taught
by Carl himself. And I remember that when he was
being interviewed by, like, Johnny Carson and others, very often
(21:06):
he would talk about the Vedas. And those were the
days before Google. And so I couldn't just Google Vedas
to find out what in the world is this man
talking about? He's an astronomer. What Vedas. I never learned
about the Vedas in astronomy class. And so finally, when
I realized that I had to look elsewhere beyond science
(21:29):
for answers to my questions, I went to Olin Library,
which is the grad student library at Cornell, and I
looked it up and sure enough, it's the sacred literature
of the Hindu religion. And so in typical fashion, because
I've never done anything halfway. Janet. Anybody who knows me
knows that I don't do anything halfway. I'm just very intense.
(21:51):
Even now. Uh, and so I just threw myself into Hinduism,
and I found it quite fascinating. And then I remember
getting a copy of the I Ching from a friend
of mine who. Who discovered that I was on this
kind of Herman Hesse like spiritual journey. You know, Herman
Hesse wrote novels. The reason I loved. And that's really
when I discovered Herman Hesse. He. His protagonists are always
(22:14):
these intellectuals, these tormented intellectuals that go off on these
spiritual journeys. And sometimes they end up well, and sometimes
they don't end up so well. But Goldmoon and Narcissus,
you know, beneath the wheel, all those, I mean Siddhartha. Um,
so I fancied myself as being on this journey. And, uh.
And so a fellow grad student sent me a copy
(22:36):
of the I Ching, and I got into that Chinese mysticism,
then Buddhism, then Islam, and then my thesis professor was Jewish.
So I started going to Shabbat services on Friday night.
And then TMI, a Transcendental Meditation international, caught my attention
because there was a guru at that time making the rounds,
and I found that very fascinating. So you can imagine
(22:58):
I was at that point, I guess you would call
me a seeker. I was just seeking, seeking answers to
my intellectual questions. I wouldn't call myself, you know, anything
but an atheist in search of answers that the science
wasn't able to provide me. And so one night at
three in the morning, I go back to my dorm room,
as always, and I open the door and I hear
(23:19):
the scraping sound underneath the door. I look down, there's
a white envelope with my name on it, and it's
a Valentine's Day card from a girl named Laurel. Well,
number one, I didn't even know it was Valentine's Day.
And technically it wasn't because already 3 a.m. the following day. But, um,
I thought Laurel, Laurel, Laurel and I sought her out
to thank her. And one thing led to another, and
(23:41):
I started spending a little less time in the lab
and a little more time with Laurel. She was a
sorority girl. You've seen the movie beauty and the beast, right, Janet? Well,
I was at that moment. I was living the movie.
And I'll leave it up to you to know who
was the beast and who was the beauty. Trust me,
I was not the beauty. And to this day, I just.
You talk about miracles. It's a miracle that this beautiful
(24:03):
sorority girl would come chasing after me. Good lord. But
it was a God thing, I think, because at one
point when I started sharing with her my angst and
my desire to get answers, she says, well, have you
ever read the Bible? You've done Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam.
How about Christianity? I said, nah, not really, for two reasons.
Number one, the Bible is very familiar to me. I
heard about it growing up and so I didn't think
(24:24):
there was anything there for me. Done that. Been there,
you know. And then second, people who read the Bible
hate science. And that's my number one love in life.
And then she said the words that changed my life forever.
She said, I haven't read the Bible either, but if
you read it, I'll read it with you. Wow I.
S5 (24:40):
Did. Wow.
S1 (24:43):
Wow. If God isn't purposeful. That is a wonderful story,
by the way. The word vida. If you look it
up in Sanskrit, it means God is my oath, my knowledge,
my wisdom. And that was the beginning of your spiritual journey.
I'm going to come back to you with that sorority
girl reading the Bible when we return. We're so glad
that we have this opportunity to spend the hour with
(25:03):
Doctor Michael Gillen. His book Believing is Seeing, physicist explains
how science shattered his atheism and revealed the necessity of
faith back after this. Going through life with the Bible
(25:24):
in one hand and the newspaper in the other is
essential for each of us on our walk with Christ.
And that's what we do on in the market. We
examine culture, interpret the headlines, and look at the news
from a biblical perspective. When you become a partial partner,
you're directly responsible for putting this program on the air,
reaching men and women across America with the practical application
of God's Word. Become a partner today by calling 877558
(25:45):
or go to in the market with Janet. What a
fascinating conversation. If you missed any of it, you can
go to the great technology we have in the 21st century.
Go to my website in the market with Janet Parshall
on the right hand side. Two words there, sitting right
next to each other. Past programs clicking on download this
hour in its entirety. In fact, you can do either hour.
(26:06):
We're on for two hours every day, going back a
full year. But if you have friends for whom they
think there is this false dichotomy, the war between religion
and science, that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. You've
got this brilliant man and doctor Michael Gillon, whose very
life story says it's anything but that believing is in truth, seeing.
And he wrote a book to that end called Believing
(26:28):
is Seeing. A physicist explains how science shattered his atheism
and revealed the necessity of faith. I want to jump
right back to this story. So you've gone this entire
route from atheism to Hinduism to Buddhism to Islam, to
Judaism to transcendental Meditation, and the sorority girl catches your eye.
I think she's probably making your heart beat a little faster.
And she says, read this book together. And you said,
(26:50):
you're on. So tell me how that started and what
was that like, and what answers did you start to find?
S8 (26:56):
Well, it was interesting because, um, we're both very kind
of intellectual. Laurel is just like, I am very curious, uh,
really hard core intellectual. So it ended up taking us
actually two years, two years to read the Bible from
cover to cover. And, uh, when we began, we started
asking so many questions, you know, like, wait a minute,
(27:18):
doesn't this verse contradict what we were reading last week?
And and finally I said, Laurel, we're never going to
get through this thing. Um, unless we write our questions
down in a spiral. We got the spiral bound notebook
and we put all our questions there. I said, we
can come back to them, but let's just keep moving.
And still, it took us two years. But here's the thing.
(27:40):
The Old Testament we found rather depressing. Um, and it
was very logical. You know, it was like, uh, God
gives us free choice. We mess up, he forgives us,
gives us a second chance, we blow it again, he
punishes us. And it that's just very logical. The Bible
in the Old Testament says an eye for an eye.
(28:02):
You know, you hit me, I hit you back. Um,
but then when we got to the New Testament, it
was really a horse of a different color for me. Uh,
I'm just telling you how I reacted to it. And
by the way, Laurel did, too. It's as if somebody
suddenly we'd been sitting in the dark and somebody suddenly
switched on the lights. Why? Because I was particularly taken
(28:23):
by the way Jesus spoke. This person. Jesus. Now, you
have to understand, in my kind of spiritual exploration, I'd
learned all about the Buddha and all the other gods,
Shiva and all the rest of it. This Jesus person
stood out to me as someone, uh, who spoke in
a language that resonated with the scientist in me. Now,
(28:46):
that may sound odd to your listeners, but that's just
the truth. The way Jesus spoke and speaks in the
New Testament reminded me immediately of what I was learning
in quantum mechanics. It's what I call trans logical. It's
trans logical speech. It's trans logical reasoning. It's not logical.
It's trans logical. We don't necessarily have time to get
(29:08):
into it here, but I talk about it in the
book believing is seeing. Now, I didn't fall to my
knees at that point. I didn't have a Damascus like conversion. Um,
I'm just too hard headed for that. But it was
enough to hook me. And as I explored Christianity more
deeply over the years, uh, and even more than a decade, uh,
(29:30):
I resisted, Uh, losing my atheism, I felt still very
comfortable in my atheism. But I was intrigued by this
Christianity stuff. And then finally, uh, right around the 1990s.
So you can imagine this has been a long journey
for me. Um, I decided, you know what? I'm really
(29:50):
being dishonest with myself, and I'm being unfair to the truth.
I've got to drop the other shoe, because by then,
what I had done and I explained this again in
the book so the reader can see what I saw.
Back then, I compared the secular worldview, the kind of
canonical atheist worldview to the Christian worldview, to the scientific worldview.
(30:11):
And I asked myself, and I created a matrix again,
I'm a scientist, and I just I looked at it
and I said, wow, atheism does not square with science
the way I had thought all these years. It does,
it doesn't. And yet Christianity, the Christian worldview does. And
that shocked me. And so because of that single revelation,
(30:33):
I felt I had to make that commitment and said, look,
I'm interested first and foremost in the truth. I'm not defending.
I'm not interested in defending any point of view or
any discipline or anything like that. I'm not even interested
in defending the truth, because, as Charles Spurgeon once said,
you know, truth does not need defending. It just needs
(30:54):
letting go, and it will defend itself. So I don't
feel like I'm even like defending the truth. I just
care about the truth. And so for that reason, I,
I really became a Christian. And then I kept it
to myself. And it wasn't until like around 19, I
think it's 1996. I tell the story in the book.
(31:17):
I was on Good Morning America at that time. I
was at ABC news doing Good Morning America, Nightline, 2020,
World News Tonight. I had an occasion to do a segment,
a science segment where I was part of a roundtable.
Table and at that round table. Um, and it was
a shock to me hearing these words coming out of
my mouth. I confessed my belief in God. And I thought, Janet,
(31:39):
at that moment, I thought I was going to lose
my job. I thought, this is the stupidest thing I've
ever done to confess my belief in God. Um, but
just the opposite happened. And my life from that moment on,
when when I just came clean with. With the truth.
When I came clean with the author of truth, namely God. Uh,
(32:02):
I have felt liberated. Uh, and, uh, my life has
taken off in ways that I could never have imagined
as that little boy in East LA dreaming merely about
becoming a scientist, I became a scientist. I ended up
teaching physics at Harvard for nine years. I mean, it
doesn't get better than that.
S1 (32:22):
That's right.
S8 (32:22):
You know, Harvard, I was teaching the best and the
brightest for nine years. But Because I. I became a
Christian because, uh, I surrendered my life. And I tell
that story because believing in God is one thing. But
surrendering your life is a whole nother thing. We we
we haven't even gotten there. But there was a moment
(32:44):
in my life when I was really down and out,
when I finally surrendered my life to God. Then because
of that surrender, my life has reached heights that I
could never have imagined as that little Mexican kid from
East LA.
S7 (32:58):
Wow.
S1 (32:59):
Just amazing. So it is as you surrender to him
and the you know. Then shall the eyes of the
blind be open as we sing in the Messiah and
read in the book of Isaiah, has you looked around,
and the more you got into this stuff, stuff that
most of us we can't spell half this stuff, let
alone understand what it means. And this is the world
in which you lived and moved. Did you now going
(33:20):
to the title of your book, believing is Seeing go.
That makes sense now. Now that makes sense now that
you saw God as the center of the universe In
the beginning, God created did things that might have been
a little mysterious have clarity because you believe now that
God was the center of all things?
S8 (33:37):
Absolutely, yes. And and very briefly, because I know we're
probably running out of time in this segment. But I
will say very briefly, believing is seeing. Where does that
come from? Because, you see, when I was studying way
back when I was much younger, I was studying Euclidean geometry.
And it's it's a beautiful, uh, achievement of Aristotelian logic,
(33:58):
just simple what we call two valued logic. Um, but
you have to understand, Euclid had to assume more than
30 things. He had to assume 30 axioms. And so
I realized much, much later, when I was having this
conversion experience, I realized, wait a minute. Unless I believe
those axioms, I will never see for myself what Euclid discovered.
(34:22):
You see, you have to buy into the axioms. You
have to assume certain things. You have to believe in
those axioms. And when you believe, and only when you
believe those axioms are you given the opportunity to see
the fruits of those axioms. So if you translate that
now to my spiritual journey, what I realized was, unless
(34:43):
I believed in God, unless I at least, uh, thought
about the possibility that God existed, I would never see
for myself the fruits of that belief. Well, now I have,
because I completely believe in the existence of God for
all kinds of reasons that I spell out in this book.
It's a really thorough book. Um, and because of that belief,
(35:05):
because I buy into that belief, I'm able to see
things that I never did before, not even as that
committed scientific monk. It's really been an eye opener. And
it's beautiful because I now see the universe in its
full glory. Not not just as an intellectual, not just
(35:26):
for somebody with IQ, but with but as someone who
has also what I call esq spiritual quotient. And I
also explain that in the book and I think we're wired,
you and I and everybody listening right now, you have
to understand, was wired with the Spirit of God in
himself or herself, and it's that spirit that that gives
(35:46):
us a kind of intelligence that is above and beyond IQ.
So when I surrendered myself to God, I was basically
at that moment, for the first time in my life,
embracing both my IQ and my S.q. And when you
do that, it's like looking at a 3D movie with
both lenses on the green and the red. Okay. Suddenly
(36:09):
everything pops and everything is not. Everything is clear because
we're told not everything is clear. But so much of
the mystery, so many of the questions that I had
before then suddenly were answered. And it was very, very
exciting for me. It still is. Talking about it makes
me excited.
S5 (36:27):
And.
S8 (36:27):
I put that excitement in the book. I want to
share that that excitement of that discovery with the reader.
S1 (36:34):
I loved the section on the axioms because it was
a reminder to me that while we're often told that
it's objective, knowable truth, that would be the working definition
of science. You are involved in blind faith. You believe
in stuff you can't see. You just talk about Euclid.
So if you've got all of these axioms that you
have to buy into before you see the proof, well,
(36:56):
I guess there's a little bit of faith in the
world of science as well. As you point out, you
talk about IQ, you talk about skew. I'm going to
go back to that, and I want to talk about
the Titanic moments as well. And I want to talk
about the Oxford University word post-truth, what that means and
how that applies to the concept of believing, is seeing
a lot to talk about in this last segment. Don't
go away. We're talking with Doctor Michael Gillen. What an
(37:21):
absolutely fascinating conversation. And there is a ton of information
in the book, particularly if you struggle in this area,
then listen to this man who has a 3D PhD
in physics, mathematics and astronomy that it wasn't an either
or proposition by any stretch of the imagination. If you
have a friend who struggles in this area, Michael's book
would be a great conversation starter, particularly because so many
(37:43):
people know him as the former science correspondent for ABC news,
and also seeing him on the History Channel, where he
did a weekly program called Where Did It Come From?
So people in the scientific community know Michael's name. So
he's he comes with the credentials, the ethos, if you will.
But he's got the pathos as well in this book
that I want you to read. It's called Believing is Seeing.
A physicist explains how science shattered his atheism and revealed
(38:05):
the necessity of faith. So we're talking about worldviews. That's
really what this is all about. And you talk about
those titanic moments for our worldview in the book. Michael,
explain that to our friends.
S8 (38:16):
Well, first, it refers to the fact that in the 1990s,
I was invited to go down to the bottom of
the North Atlantic Ocean to report from the Titanic. Now
how could I say no? But in the book I
talk about it because I had a I have a
deathly fear of water. And so it was a challenge
for me. Again, we can't get into all the details,
but it's in the book. So I went down there.
(38:39):
I was doing a report for 2020 at that time,
and lo and behold, as we were exploring the wreck,
we got stuck in the propeller and I nearly lost
my life. And I tell that whole story. And afterwards,
you know, um, I thought of the, the phrase the
Titanic moment because down there, trapped in that sub, really
(39:04):
pretty much kissing my life goodbye, thinking about Laurel and
never seeing her again. And looking back at my life
and my career and my journey and wondering what it
was all about. I actually, um, experienced. And I want
to be very careful how I say this, because I
am a scientist, so I want to be very precise.
(39:26):
But just when it seemed like all hope was lost,
the environment within the sub changed perceptibly. I felt that
some presence had entered that sub and many, many years later, um,
I survived obviously, and many years later, um, I was
(39:48):
reading um through Psalm 139 and it says this where
can I go from your spirit or where can I
flee from your presence if I ascend into heaven, you
are there. If I make my bed in hell, behold,
you are there. If I take the wings of the
morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
(40:14):
even there your hand shall lead me, and your right
hand shall hold me. And I just. I gasped because
that phrase and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me. And I do
believe in retrospect that presence that I felt entering the
sub was God, and he gave me a peace that
(40:37):
I'll never forget. A Janet in the midst of, uh,
this deadly situation. And then I began reflecting on, you know,
each of us has titanic moments like that. I now
speak at college campuses, and I afterwards, a lot of
kids come up to me and they say, you know,
I've had a a titanic moment, Doctor Gillen, maybe, uh,
(41:01):
my friend, I remember this one basketball player telling me
that his best friend tried to commit suicide because she
was feeling so unloved. And, uh. And so I write
about this notion of titanic moments in the book, and,
and I ask the reader, what is your Titanic moment?
And I'm asking your listeners right now, Are you going
through a titanic moment right now, or did you just
(41:24):
go through one? Uh, sooner or later you will have
a titanic moment. Maybe your life won't be on the line,
but your world will be completely upended. And you will be.
You'll feel helpless about what you can do. The situation
will be completely out of your control. And so I
talk about that book. I talk about that in the
book and say this to the reader, look, you are
(41:45):
free to believe whatever you want, okay? And those beliefs
are the foundation of your worldview. Those are like the
axioms of Euclidean geometry. These are the assumptions you make
about the world, about God, about yourself, about others. These
are your beliefs, your core beliefs, and your whole worldview
(42:07):
is founded on that. Now you're free to believe whatever
you want, but when a titanic moment strikes, you're going
to discover very quickly whether those beliefs are founded on
the absolute truths of the universe, or they are merely
your own prejudices or your own feelings, and that will
(42:29):
make the difference. Janet, between whether your. World will sink
like a rock, or you will soar like an eagle.
And so what I when I wrote this book, believing
is seen. It's with the earnest prayer that people who
(42:50):
read it will understand the the enormous importance of their worldview.
You see, we all have a worldview. And there are
three things about a worldview that are important. Number one,
what is it founded on? Is it founded on misguided
faith or enlightened faith? Number two, its size is it's big.
Is it big enough for God and science, or is
(43:12):
it just big enough for science? Or maybe even just
big enough for God? And maybe you hate science or
you fear it or you're wary of it. And then, um,
the the other thing is what is at its center,
because whatever is at its center, whatever your whole life
revolves around, that's your God. And so in this book,
(43:33):
I'm hoping that people will examine the worldview carefully so
that when a titanic moment strikes, they will be be prepared, uh,
well prepared to not only survive it, but to learn
and become stronger because of it.
S5 (43:51):
Oh.
S1 (43:51):
Michael, I could talk to you for hours and hours
and hours. There's so much more in the book than
we have had a chance to discuss. But I have
30s left. Oxford University word of the year. Post-truth. Now,
truth is ultimately individualized. You were in pursuit of truth,
whether it's in science or whether it was the beginning
of your spiritual journey. Is truth knowable? Now, if I
(44:13):
were to ask you today, would you say a different
answer today than you would have done 30 years ago.
S8 (44:18):
Truth is eternal. So even though the Bible is thousands
of years old, and many people want to make it
sound like it's obsolete, it isn't. It's timeless. The truths
of the Bible. Truth itself is timeless.
S1 (44:33):
Michael. Fabulous conversation and friends. I cannot stress enough that
as rich as this conversation was, there's so, so, so
much more to be added to it through this book,
particularly if you are a seeker, particularly if you are
a skeptic or a cynic, or you would classify yourself
as an atheist, or maybe an atheist whose world is
beginning to unravel a little bit. Because maybe as you
(44:54):
look around, things are starting to look a little bit different,
and you're trying to see whether or not seeing is believing,
Michael's going to challenge you. To say that it's really
believing is seeing, and seeing is reacting. You're going to
want to read his book. It's really a powerful testimony
of a powerful journey that now is about a very
important life. Thanks, friends. We'll see you next time.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
of In the Market with Janet Parshall, and it is
my most sincere hope that you are edified, equipped, enlightened,
encouraged and then it makes you just want to get
out there in the marketplace of ideas and influence and
occupy until he comes. But before you start listening, let
me just take a moment of your time to tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Steadfast
Love of the Lord by my friend and frequent guest,
(00:22):
Doctor Sam Storms. You know, he tells us that so
often we struggle with this idea of feeling like we're
loved by God, or that somehow we've done something that
separates us from the love of God. But we fail
to remember the Scripture that reminds us that while we
were yet sinners, not perfect, not all put together, not
everything's all been worked out while we were yet sinners.
That's when Christ died. For us. Love is an action word,
(00:44):
and that's what Doctor Sam Storms reminds us in his book,
The Steadfast Love of God. I don't know about you,
but with the headlines of the day, being reminded of
who God is is about the most precious news I
could hear on a regular basis. And I'd love for
you to have a copy written by a man who
understands the Bible and always delivers rich theology. So just
call 877 Janet 58. When you give a gift of
(01:05):
any amount, because we are listener supported radio, we're going
to send you a copy of The Steadfast Love of
the Lord. 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or
go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Same thing.
Scroll down on the page. You'll see the cover of
Sam's book, The Steadfast Love of the Lord, clicking on
make Your Donation and we'll send it to you again.
(01:27):
Listener supported. And when you give a gift, it keeps
us on the air. And what I want to do
in return is keep you growing forward in your walk
with Jesus Christ. By the way, we also have a
group of friends called Partial Partners. Those are people who
give every single month a they get the truth tool,
b they get a weekly newsletter that always contains some
of my writing and an audio piece that only my
partial partners get. I don't set the level you do
(01:50):
if you become a partial partner, but the idea here
is that you're giving on a monthly basis. So I
want you to know how much I appreciate that as well.
So 877 Janet 58 877 Janet 58 or online at
In the Market with Janet. When you're on the website,
scroll to the bottom. Click on the cover of the
book and it'll walk you through the rest. Thanks so much!
And now with all my heart, I hope you hear
(02:10):
something today that really changes your perspective and makes you
excited about being a follower of Jesus Christ. Enjoy the program!
S2 (02:18):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (02:20):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (02:22):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (02:25):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S6 (02:28):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:31):
Is not the way. Hi friends.
S1 (02:47):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am
thrilled we're going to spend the hour together because I
hope we will slay once and for all the mythology
that says you have a multiple choice test. It is
either faith or reason that science and religion are at
war with one another. That is one or the other,
but the two are mutually exclusive and cannot happily co-exist. Listen,
(03:09):
I'm coming to you from the shadow of the nation's capital.
We are a town of demonstrations, as you've probably picked
up a time or two, and I've seen them march
down the main street in Washington, D.C., carrying signs that
say I believe in science, which immediately makes me as
a follower of Jesus Christ, go. Does that mean I don't?
Is it an either or proposition? I think not. And
I think after this hour you're going to hear from
(03:31):
a man with all the credentials, all the initials possible
after his name, all of the cred, as they say.
And you're going to understand that he says believing is
in fact, seeing. Let me tell you who our guest is.
Doctor Michael Gillon is our guest. He's a graduate of
UCLA and Cornell, and he holds degrees in physics, math
and astronomy students. That means he did his homework on
(03:51):
a regular basis. He's a former science correspondent for ABC news.
He was also a physics instructor at Harvard for eight years,
host of the History Channel series Where Did It Come From?
And producer of the award winning family movie little Red wagon,
which you can watch right now on Amazon Prime if
you want. He hosts the weekly podcast Science Plus God
with doctor G, and that gets sponsored by K-Love and
(04:13):
Air1 radio networks. And as if he didn't have anything
else to do, he runs a film and television production company.
And he joins us because in his spare time, he's
written the book Believing Is Seeing. A physicist explains how
science shattered his atheism and revealed the necessity of faith. Michael.
What a joy to have you with us. Thank you.
(04:34):
You understand this? As someone who understands physics, I can't
give you back this hour of time. You're giving it
to us. And I so appreciate it. Thank you.
S7 (04:41):
Thank you.
S8 (04:42):
Hi, Janet. It is just my absolute joy to be
with you again. It's been way too long. And thank
you for inviting me on the show.
S1 (04:51):
I'm thrilled you're back again. Michael. Thank you so, so much.
Talk to me about your childhood growing up because it's
clear you have a love of science. Did that love
manifest itself early in your life?
S8 (05:03):
In the second grade. Wow. And, um, you know what?
That makes me seven years old. And what made it
particularly odd, Janet, is that, you know, I. I was
born in East Los Angeles on the wrong side of
the tracks, which meant that I had never met a
scientist in my life. You know, you could understand it
if I had run into a scientist, either in my
(05:25):
family or outside the family who somehow inspired me. But
that's not how it happened with me. It just, I,
I can't honestly, I can't remember a day when I
wasn't head over heels in love with science. And so
that obviously, uh, mystified me for a while looking back.
Of course, I now give credit where credit is due.
I do believe that God, uh, placed that love in
(05:48):
my heart because he knew, um, that we would reach
this point in our history when science became kind of the,
I don't know, the new savior of the world. You know,
kids are growing up today. I have a Gen Z son. Uh,
he's he just turned 22. Now, you think about it.
His generation, the Gen Z generation, they've they've grown up
(06:10):
thinking of science as the miracle worker. You know, this
generation hasn't read the Bible. They don't think about God.
All the polls indicate that, uh, so they've grown up,
you know, reading the headlines that science is giving sight
to the blind, uh, is helping the lame to walk,
is helping barren women to have children. So it's not
(06:32):
for this generation. Jesus is not the miracle worker. It's science.
And so I believe that many years ago, when I
was a, you know, seven year old kid growing up
in East LA, uh, God knew it. And I am
now in the eye of the storm. Janet, I, uh,
and I'm simultaneously excited, but I'm also appalled at what
(06:52):
I see going on right now. I'm excited because God
has given me the credentials and God has prepared me
for this moment. But I'm appalled at what has happened,
even to my own beloved science.
S1 (07:03):
I so resonate with that dual response. But let me
just encourage you as a sister in the Lord, it's
so clear that God has called you for such a
time as this, because C.S. Lewis talked about this. He
talked about the ascendancy, and he used the word scientism,
which exactly as you just said, that's where all truth
could be found would be in scientism. But let me
go back a little bit to those barrios where you
were growing up. You never met a scientist, but clearly
(07:25):
God was giving you the desires of your heart because
he had prepared a plan for you you didn't yet
know about. But where were you spiritually? What kind of
family did you grow up spiritually in?
S8 (07:35):
Well, that's what really makes my story particularly odd, because
my father and both my grandfathers were Spanish speaking Pentecostal ministers. And, uh,
you know, my my father was born in Texas. So
was my paternal grandfather, but my maternal grandfather was born
(07:57):
in Guadalajara, Mexico, and he married a woman from Cuba.
My my grandmother, we called her Titi. She, uh, she
fled from Cuba because of communism and met this Mexican
man and married him. And they had my mother. Uh,
she was the oldest of eight children. Can you imagine, Janet? Mm.
(08:19):
So I grew up in a household where we went
to church, you know, like seven days a week. You know, people,
you know, it wasn't just like, hey, let's go to
church on Sunday. It was like. It was like a
week long affair. And. And when we would go to church,
you know, the sermons went on and on and on.
(08:40):
I mean, you know, like, it wasn't unusual to have
a one or a two hour sermon. And of course, uh,
being Hispanic is I did the calculation. Janet. I have
to chuckle, but I can't help myself. I'm a scientist.
So one day I just did the calculation on on
5/8 Mexican, 2/8 Cuban and Spanish and one eighth Austrian.
Now go figure. I don't know where that snuck in,
(09:01):
but there you go. One eighth Austrian. But, you know, uh,
we were very big on discipline in my family. And
so we didn't sit still and listen to that sermon,
whether it was my dad preaching or some other person preaching,
you know, my mother would reach over and pinch us. And, uh,
so that was my that was my upbringing. It was
particularly odd. But now I'm perfectly positioned to have this
(09:23):
conversation with you.
S1 (09:25):
Isn't that the truth? Exactly. Wow. Well, when we come back,
I want to know what it was like to get
into UCLA. And I want to pick up the story there.
I love these kinds of stories, because it really just
belies the mythology that it's an either or option. It
is not by any stretch of the imagination. Listen, if
Scripture tells us that the heavens are declaring the glory
of God and he asks us, were we there when
(09:47):
he formed the ocean? And who controls the wind? I'm
pretty sure those are scientific questions, and God's letting us
know he's in charge. That believing is in reality. In
reality seeing. That's what Doctor Michael Gillen says. We're just
getting started with our conversation more after this. If you've
(10:15):
ever felt unworthy of God's love, we need to remember
that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
That's why I've chosen the steadfast love of the Lord
as this month's truth tool. Unworthiness doesn't disqualify you from
God's love. It magnifies it. As for your copy of
The Steadfast Love of the Lord, when you give a
gift of any amount in the market, call 877 Janet 58.
That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market
(10:38):
with Janet Parshall. Don't you love conversations like the one
we're having? You know, the Bible tells us that if
we seek him, we will find him. If we seek
him with all our heart, he will be found. And
then he tells us and tells us and tells us
again that he's there, pursuing us. Believing is seeing. A
physicist explains how science shattered his atheism and revealed the
(11:00):
necessity of faith. That's Doctor Michael Gillan's brand new book. Oh,
if you know anybody for whom this is a conflict
in their life, I want you to get it and
share it with them, because this journey will open their
eyes as well. So, Michael, when you go to UCLA,
you talk about your very unique background. At what point?
And I'm using the word that you use to self
describe you get to the campus of UCLA. Not an
(11:22):
easy school to get into while you're there. You're studying
physics and math and astronomy. All high sciences take a
whole lot of brain power. Would you have categorized yourself
as an atheist prior to coming to campus or while
you were at campus?
S8 (11:38):
Well, that's a good question. Um, let me let me
answer it this way, Janet, because it's the most honest
way to answer it. Ah, during all those years of
being a kid growing up in a Spanish speaking Pentecostal home,
going to church seven days a week, I never really
owned the faith. I didn't really understand it as a child.
(12:01):
I didn't care to understand it. Uh, honestly, uh, we
had a tradition in the church we went to where
the kids would go down to the basement for a
little Sunday school lesson, and then we would all be
lined up and brought back up stairs to the main sanctuary.
And my main preoccupation at that point was to be
(12:22):
at the head of the line. Why? Because I wanted
to be to the first to get to the drum set. Uh,
we had a little kind of a, you know, musical
grouping up front, and I just really wanted to play
the drums. That's all I cared about. So, you know,
Jesus and the Bible, it went in one year. It
went in one year and out the other year. And
(12:42):
I think that is a lesson for a lot of
parents today that just because you take your kid to
church doesn't mean they're absorbing the faith. And in my case,
I think it may have actually had the opposite effect,
because by the time I went to UCLA and then
went on to Cornell, where I got my PhD in physics,
math and astronomy, I was, for all intents and purposes,
(13:06):
an atheist, I got by which I mean, God wasn't
on my radar. I didn't care about God. I didn't
care to know about God. He didn't influence my decisions.
The only thing that mattered to me, Janet, and I
can't overemphasize this enough, is science. I by the time
(13:29):
I got to Cornell for grad school. So I graduated
from UCLA with my BS in physics and math and
went to Ithaca, New York, uh, and began really my
years of being what I call a scientific monk. And
I mean that Literally because I slept on the average
(13:49):
of three hours a day, typically from three in the
morning till about six in the morning. Okay. And I
would have not even slept those three hours if I
could possibly stand it. And I begrudged those three hours.
I begrudged having to eat. I took very little time
to groom myself. I didn't know because my lab, which
(14:09):
I spent, you know, the other 20, 21 hours, when
the three hours I wasn't sleeping, I spent either in
my basement lab or in the classroom. And because it
was a basement lab, it had no windows. I didn't
know if it was day or night. I didn't particularly care.
I went there seven days a week. Sunday, for me,
wasn't anything special. It was just another day. So I
(14:30):
don't know. Yes, I was an atheist, I think from,
I don't know, from, from a very young age. And
it really wasn't until maybe my second year In grad
school that I began asking questions. And, you know, one
(14:52):
of my one of my favorite verses in the Bible
is the first one. Very simple. In the beginning, God
created the heavens and the earth. You see, if you
don't understand or believe that, just close the Bible because
you're not going to believe or understand anything else the
Bible has to say to you. And when I was
(15:15):
at Cornell, I didn't believe that I didn't particularly care
to understand it. I hadn't really read the Bible. I'd
heard about the Bible naturally growing up in the church.
But again, I didn't own it. It didn't. That wasn't
my faith. That was my parents faith. And I went
there out of obedience because I had no choice. What
kid has a choice? And, um, but in the second
(15:39):
year of my grad school, um, I began questioning how
this universe of ours had come to be, because by
then you have to understand. The second year of grad school,
I had learned that the universe appears to be wired
for life, and we can have that discussion if you wish.
Down the line. But when I say that, I mean
(16:01):
that literally. We discovered that the universe appears to be
wired for life. I shouldn't even say appears to be
is wired for life. Okay. And we can elaborate on that.
And number two, I learned that the universe is mostly
invisible about 95. We estimate today that about 95% of
(16:21):
the universe is invisible to us. It's in the form
of what we call dark energy, dark matter, black holes.
And by the way, the terms dark energy and dark
matter are just placeholders. We don't know what that is.
It's just our way of saying, hey, we can't see it. Okay,
so in second year of grad school, I started pondering that.
It's like, wow, okay, well, I've already discovered that the
(16:43):
universe is beautiful through and through, from the microscopic to
the astronomical levels. It's designed for life, and it's mostly invisible.
This is. Is this, like, really an accident? Could this
amazing universe really be an accident? And I started doubting it,
I started I. Is it possible for an atheist to
doubt atheism? Yes. I'm proof, I'm proof. How was it
(17:07):
doubting atheist? Right. Because, look, the science and the math
applied to try to describe the origins of the universe
are beautiful. The equations are magnificent. You look at Einstein's
field equations of general relativity. To this day, it's one
of my. It's the most beautiful thing on earth. It's
like a work of art. You don't need to understand
(17:29):
Einstein's field equation to appreciate it as a work of art.
And so that questioning is what started me on my
spiritual journey. And the rest is history.
S1 (17:40):
Wow. And it is that part of your history that
I want to examine. Absolutely. Fascinating. So there is Michael
with rigorous academic, uh, well, athleticism, if I can put
it that way, is absolutely throwing himself into advanced sciences, physics, mathematics, astronomy.
But all of a sudden the form, the order, the shape,
(18:01):
the perfection, not chaos. The Scripture says God is not
the author of confusion, but order is being found. Is
this what led him to be able to say that
believing is, in fact, seeing more with Doctor Michael Gillen
right after this? Bestselling author Doctor Michael Gillen is with us.
(18:26):
He tells his story of his spiritual journey in his
new book called Believing Is Seeing. A physicist explains how
science shattered his atheism and revealed the necessity of faith.
So I want to go right back to the. The
rest of it is history. I love this so with
the same sort of scrutiny and intense commitment to seeking answers.
As you were working on your 3D PhD in physics,
(18:48):
mathematics and astronomy, you didn't have to ask whether science
and religion were at conflict. Those questions started to raise
on their own volition. You started looking around. You talked
about Einstein's field equation. So, Michael, tell me more about
this journey. I mean, there are things we don't know,
which I think is absolutely fascinating. And that's why I
think Scripture calls some of this a mystery. But there
(19:08):
are things we can never know. As you said before,
black holes, black matter are simply placeholders. We don't know
what they are. But talk to me about your search
for finding the answer in the world of religion.
S8 (19:19):
So there I was, a second year grad student at Cornell. This,
you know, unkempt, Uber geeky scientific monk who's still head
over heels in love with science and nothing more. I mean,
literally nothing more. And I'm asking the question of myself
(19:42):
as an intellectual, as an atheist. How did this amazing,
mostly invisible universe of ours come to be? A universe
that's wired for life? And I started by realizing that, wow,
I've been living by the motto seeing is believing. Many
people do. It seems very logical. You know, I'm not
(20:02):
going to believe it unless I see it. And I
knew I had to ditch that right away. Why? Because
if the universe is 95% invisible, then if if I'm
living by if I'm insisting that the only thing I'm
going to believe in is what I can see, then
I've got to. Then I've got to ditch 95% of
the universe. I can't believe that it exists because I
(20:22):
can't see it. So I knew I was in trouble
right off the bat as an intellectual. And I remember
one of my professors was Carl Sagan, a very famous astronomer,
and he was just getting to be famous. He was
going on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And he
was doing the he was getting ready to host the
(20:43):
cosmos series on PBS, getting a lot of buzz. Well,
I was there in the eye of the storm, and
I took classes from Carl. One of them being in Exobiology,
which is the study of life outside the Earth. It
was a fascinating course, and you can imagine being taught
by Carl himself. And I remember that when he was
being interviewed by, like, Johnny Carson and others, very often
(21:06):
he would talk about the Vedas. And those were the
days before Google. And so I couldn't just Google Vedas
to find out what in the world is this man
talking about? He's an astronomer. What Vedas. I never learned
about the Vedas in astronomy class. And so finally, when
I realized that I had to look elsewhere beyond science
(21:29):
for answers to my questions, I went to Olin Library,
which is the grad student library at Cornell, and I
looked it up and sure enough, it's the sacred literature
of the Hindu religion. And so in typical fashion, because
I've never done anything halfway. Janet. Anybody who knows me
knows that I don't do anything halfway. I'm just very intense.
(21:51):
Even now. Uh, and so I just threw myself into Hinduism,
and I found it quite fascinating. And then I remember
getting a copy of the I Ching from a friend
of mine who. Who discovered that I was on this
kind of Herman Hesse like spiritual journey. You know, Herman
Hesse wrote novels. The reason I loved. And that's really
when I discovered Herman Hesse. He. His protagonists are always
(22:14):
these intellectuals, these tormented intellectuals that go off on these
spiritual journeys. And sometimes they end up well, and sometimes
they don't end up so well. But Goldmoon and Narcissus,
you know, beneath the wheel, all those, I mean Siddhartha. Um,
so I fancied myself as being on this journey. And, uh.
And so a fellow grad student sent me a copy
(22:36):
of the I Ching, and I got into that Chinese mysticism,
then Buddhism, then Islam, and then my thesis professor was Jewish.
So I started going to Shabbat services on Friday night.
And then TMI, a Transcendental Meditation international, caught my attention
because there was a guru at that time making the rounds,
and I found that very fascinating. So you can imagine
(22:58):
I was at that point, I guess you would call
me a seeker. I was just seeking, seeking answers to
my intellectual questions. I wouldn't call myself, you know, anything
but an atheist in search of answers that the science
wasn't able to provide me. And so one night at
three in the morning, I go back to my dorm room,
as always, and I open the door and I hear
(23:19):
the scraping sound underneath the door. I look down, there's
a white envelope with my name on it, and it's
a Valentine's Day card from a girl named Laurel. Well,
number one, I didn't even know it was Valentine's Day.
And technically it wasn't because already 3 a.m. the following day. But, um,
I thought Laurel, Laurel, Laurel and I sought her out
to thank her. And one thing led to another, and
(23:41):
I started spending a little less time in the lab
and a little more time with Laurel. She was a
sorority girl. You've seen the movie beauty and the beast, right, Janet? Well,
I was at that moment. I was living the movie.
And I'll leave it up to you to know who
was the beast and who was the beauty. Trust me,
I was not the beauty. And to this day, I just.
You talk about miracles. It's a miracle that this beautiful
(24:03):
sorority girl would come chasing after me. Good lord. But
it was a God thing, I think, because at one
point when I started sharing with her my angst and
my desire to get answers, she says, well, have you
ever read the Bible? You've done Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam.
How about Christianity? I said, nah, not really, for two reasons.
Number one, the Bible is very familiar to me. I
heard about it growing up and so I didn't think
(24:24):
there was anything there for me. Done that. Been there,
you know. And then second, people who read the Bible
hate science. And that's my number one love in life.
And then she said the words that changed my life forever.
She said, I haven't read the Bible either, but if
you read it, I'll read it with you. Wow I.
S5 (24:40):
Did. Wow.
S1 (24:43):
Wow. If God isn't purposeful. That is a wonderful story,
by the way. The word vida. If you look it
up in Sanskrit, it means God is my oath, my knowledge,
my wisdom. And that was the beginning of your spiritual journey.
I'm going to come back to you with that sorority
girl reading the Bible when we return. We're so glad
that we have this opportunity to spend the hour with
(25:03):
Doctor Michael Gillen. His book Believing is Seeing, physicist explains
how science shattered his atheism and revealed the necessity of
faith back after this. Going through life with the Bible
(25:24):
in one hand and the newspaper in the other is
essential for each of us on our walk with Christ.
And that's what we do on in the market. We
examine culture, interpret the headlines, and look at the news
from a biblical perspective. When you become a partial partner,
you're directly responsible for putting this program on the air,
reaching men and women across America with the practical application
of God's Word. Become a partner today by calling 877558
(25:45):
or go to in the market with Janet. What a
fascinating conversation. If you missed any of it, you can
go to the great technology we have in the 21st century.
Go to my website in the market with Janet Parshall
on the right hand side. Two words there, sitting right
next to each other. Past programs clicking on download this
hour in its entirety. In fact, you can do either hour.
(26:06):
We're on for two hours every day, going back a
full year. But if you have friends for whom they
think there is this false dichotomy, the war between religion
and science, that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. You've
got this brilliant man and doctor Michael Gillon, whose very
life story says it's anything but that believing is in truth, seeing.
And he wrote a book to that end called Believing
(26:28):
is Seeing. A physicist explains how science shattered his atheism
and revealed the necessity of faith. I want to jump
right back to this story. So you've gone this entire
route from atheism to Hinduism to Buddhism to Islam, to
Judaism to transcendental Meditation, and the sorority girl catches your eye.
I think she's probably making your heart beat a little faster.
And she says, read this book together. And you said,
(26:50):
you're on. So tell me how that started and what
was that like, and what answers did you start to find?
S8 (26:56):
Well, it was interesting because, um, we're both very kind
of intellectual. Laurel is just like, I am very curious, uh,
really hard core intellectual. So it ended up taking us
actually two years, two years to read the Bible from
cover to cover. And, uh, when we began, we started
asking so many questions, you know, like, wait a minute,
(27:18):
doesn't this verse contradict what we were reading last week?
And and finally I said, Laurel, we're never going to
get through this thing. Um, unless we write our questions
down in a spiral. We got the spiral bound notebook
and we put all our questions there. I said, we
can come back to them, but let's just keep moving.
And still, it took us two years. But here's the thing.
(27:40):
The Old Testament we found rather depressing. Um, and it
was very logical. You know, it was like, uh, God
gives us free choice. We mess up, he forgives us,
gives us a second chance, we blow it again, he
punishes us. And it that's just very logical. The Bible
in the Old Testament says an eye for an eye.
(28:02):
You know, you hit me, I hit you back. Um,
but then when we got to the New Testament, it
was really a horse of a different color for me. Uh,
I'm just telling you how I reacted to it. And
by the way, Laurel did, too. It's as if somebody
suddenly we'd been sitting in the dark and somebody suddenly
switched on the lights. Why? Because I was particularly taken
(28:23):
by the way Jesus spoke. This person. Jesus. Now, you
have to understand, in my kind of spiritual exploration, I'd
learned all about the Buddha and all the other gods,
Shiva and all the rest of it. This Jesus person
stood out to me as someone, uh, who spoke in
a language that resonated with the scientist in me. Now,
(28:46):
that may sound odd to your listeners, but that's just
the truth. The way Jesus spoke and speaks in the
New Testament reminded me immediately of what I was learning
in quantum mechanics. It's what I call trans logical. It's
trans logical speech. It's trans logical reasoning. It's not logical.
It's trans logical. We don't necessarily have time to get
(29:08):
into it here, but I talk about it in the
book believing is seeing. Now, I didn't fall to my
knees at that point. I didn't have a Damascus like conversion. Um,
I'm just too hard headed for that. But it was
enough to hook me. And as I explored Christianity more
deeply over the years, uh, and even more than a decade, uh,
(29:30):
I resisted, Uh, losing my atheism, I felt still very
comfortable in my atheism. But I was intrigued by this
Christianity stuff. And then finally, uh, right around the 1990s.
So you can imagine this has been a long journey
for me. Um, I decided, you know what? I'm really
(29:50):
being dishonest with myself, and I'm being unfair to the truth.
I've got to drop the other shoe, because by then,
what I had done and I explained this again in
the book so the reader can see what I saw.
Back then, I compared the secular worldview, the kind of
canonical atheist worldview to the Christian worldview, to the scientific worldview.
(30:11):
And I asked myself, and I created a matrix again,
I'm a scientist, and I just I looked at it
and I said, wow, atheism does not square with science
the way I had thought all these years. It does,
it doesn't. And yet Christianity, the Christian worldview does. And
that shocked me. And so because of that single revelation,
(30:33):
I felt I had to make that commitment and said, look,
I'm interested first and foremost in the truth. I'm not defending.
I'm not interested in defending any point of view or
any discipline or anything like that. I'm not even interested
in defending the truth, because, as Charles Spurgeon once said,
you know, truth does not need defending. It just needs
(30:54):
letting go, and it will defend itself. So I don't
feel like I'm even like defending the truth. I just
care about the truth. And so for that reason, I,
I really became a Christian. And then I kept it
to myself. And it wasn't until like around 19, I
think it's 1996. I tell the story in the book.
(31:17):
I was on Good Morning America at that time. I
was at ABC news doing Good Morning America, Nightline, 2020,
World News Tonight. I had an occasion to do a segment,
a science segment where I was part of a roundtable.
Table and at that round table. Um, and it was
a shock to me hearing these words coming out of
my mouth. I confessed my belief in God. And I thought, Janet,
(31:39):
at that moment, I thought I was going to lose
my job. I thought, this is the stupidest thing I've
ever done to confess my belief in God. Um, but
just the opposite happened. And my life from that moment on,
when when I just came clean with. With the truth.
When I came clean with the author of truth, namely God. Uh,
(32:02):
I have felt liberated. Uh, and, uh, my life has
taken off in ways that I could never have imagined
as that little boy in East LA dreaming merely about
becoming a scientist, I became a scientist. I ended up
teaching physics at Harvard for nine years. I mean, it
doesn't get better than that.
S1 (32:22):
That's right.
S8 (32:22):
You know, Harvard, I was teaching the best and the
brightest for nine years. But Because I. I became a
Christian because, uh, I surrendered my life. And I tell
that story because believing in God is one thing. But
surrendering your life is a whole nother thing. We we
we haven't even gotten there. But there was a moment
(32:44):
in my life when I was really down and out,
when I finally surrendered my life to God. Then because
of that surrender, my life has reached heights that I
could never have imagined as that little Mexican kid from
East LA.
S7 (32:58):
Wow.
S1 (32:59):
Just amazing. So it is as you surrender to him
and the you know. Then shall the eyes of the
blind be open as we sing in the Messiah and
read in the book of Isaiah, has you looked around,
and the more you got into this stuff, stuff that
most of us we can't spell half this stuff, let
alone understand what it means. And this is the world
in which you lived and moved. Did you now going
(33:20):
to the title of your book, believing is Seeing go.
That makes sense now. Now that makes sense now that
you saw God as the center of the universe In
the beginning, God created did things that might have been
a little mysterious have clarity because you believe now that
God was the center of all things?
S8 (33:37):
Absolutely, yes. And and very briefly, because I know we're
probably running out of time in this segment. But I
will say very briefly, believing is seeing. Where does that
come from? Because, you see, when I was studying way
back when I was much younger, I was studying Euclidean geometry.
And it's it's a beautiful, uh, achievement of Aristotelian logic,
(33:58):
just simple what we call two valued logic. Um, but
you have to understand, Euclid had to assume more than
30 things. He had to assume 30 axioms. And so
I realized much, much later, when I was having this
conversion experience, I realized, wait a minute. Unless I believe
those axioms, I will never see for myself what Euclid discovered.
(34:22):
You see, you have to buy into the axioms. You
have to assume certain things. You have to believe in
those axioms. And when you believe, and only when you
believe those axioms are you given the opportunity to see
the fruits of those axioms. So if you translate that
now to my spiritual journey, what I realized was, unless
(34:43):
I believed in God, unless I at least, uh, thought
about the possibility that God existed, I would never see
for myself the fruits of that belief. Well, now I have,
because I completely believe in the existence of God for
all kinds of reasons that I spell out in this book.
It's a really thorough book. Um, and because of that belief,
(35:05):
because I buy into that belief, I'm able to see
things that I never did before, not even as that
committed scientific monk. It's really been an eye opener. And
it's beautiful because I now see the universe in its
full glory. Not not just as an intellectual, not just
(35:26):
for somebody with IQ, but with but as someone who
has also what I call esq spiritual quotient. And I
also explain that in the book and I think we're wired,
you and I and everybody listening right now, you have
to understand, was wired with the Spirit of God in
himself or herself, and it's that spirit that that gives
(35:46):
us a kind of intelligence that is above and beyond IQ.
So when I surrendered myself to God, I was basically
at that moment, for the first time in my life,
embracing both my IQ and my S.q. And when you
do that, it's like looking at a 3D movie with
both lenses on the green and the red. Okay. Suddenly
(36:09):
everything pops and everything is not. Everything is clear because
we're told not everything is clear. But so much of
the mystery, so many of the questions that I had
before then suddenly were answered. And it was very, very
exciting for me. It still is. Talking about it makes
me excited.
S5 (36:27):
And.
S8 (36:27):
I put that excitement in the book. I want to
share that that excitement of that discovery with the reader.
S1 (36:34):
I loved the section on the axioms because it was
a reminder to me that while we're often told that
it's objective, knowable truth, that would be the working definition
of science. You are involved in blind faith. You believe
in stuff you can't see. You just talk about Euclid.
So if you've got all of these axioms that you
have to buy into before you see the proof, well,
(36:56):
I guess there's a little bit of faith in the
world of science as well. As you point out, you
talk about IQ, you talk about skew. I'm going to
go back to that, and I want to talk about
the Titanic moments as well. And I want to talk
about the Oxford University word post-truth, what that means and
how that applies to the concept of believing, is seeing
a lot to talk about in this last segment. Don't
go away. We're talking with Doctor Michael Gillen. What an
(37:21):
absolutely fascinating conversation. And there is a ton of information
in the book, particularly if you struggle in this area,
then listen to this man who has a 3D PhD
in physics, mathematics and astronomy that it wasn't an either
or proposition by any stretch of the imagination. If you
have a friend who struggles in this area, Michael's book
would be a great conversation starter, particularly because so many
(37:43):
people know him as the former science correspondent for ABC news,
and also seeing him on the History Channel, where he
did a weekly program called Where Did It Come From?
So people in the scientific community know Michael's name. So
he's he comes with the credentials, the ethos, if you will.
But he's got the pathos as well in this book
that I want you to read. It's called Believing is Seeing.
A physicist explains how science shattered his atheism and revealed
(38:05):
the necessity of faith. So we're talking about worldviews. That's
really what this is all about. And you talk about
those titanic moments for our worldview in the book. Michael,
explain that to our friends.
S8 (38:16):
Well, first, it refers to the fact that in the 1990s,
I was invited to go down to the bottom of
the North Atlantic Ocean to report from the Titanic. Now
how could I say no? But in the book I
talk about it because I had a I have a
deathly fear of water. And so it was a challenge
for me. Again, we can't get into all the details,
but it's in the book. So I went down there.
(38:39):
I was doing a report for 2020 at that time,
and lo and behold, as we were exploring the wreck,
we got stuck in the propeller and I nearly lost
my life. And I tell that whole story. And afterwards,
you know, um, I thought of the, the phrase the
Titanic moment because down there, trapped in that sub, really
(39:04):
pretty much kissing my life goodbye, thinking about Laurel and
never seeing her again. And looking back at my life
and my career and my journey and wondering what it
was all about. I actually, um, experienced. And I want
to be very careful how I say this, because I
am a scientist, so I want to be very precise.
(39:26):
But just when it seemed like all hope was lost,
the environment within the sub changed perceptibly. I felt that
some presence had entered that sub and many, many years later, um,
I survived obviously, and many years later, um, I was
(39:48):
reading um through Psalm 139 and it says this where
can I go from your spirit or where can I
flee from your presence if I ascend into heaven, you
are there. If I make my bed in hell, behold,
you are there. If I take the wings of the
morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
(40:14):
even there your hand shall lead me, and your right
hand shall hold me. And I just. I gasped because
that phrase and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me. And I do
believe in retrospect that presence that I felt entering the
sub was God, and he gave me a peace that
(40:37):
I'll never forget. A Janet in the midst of, uh,
this deadly situation. And then I began reflecting on, you know,
each of us has titanic moments like that. I now
speak at college campuses, and I afterwards, a lot of
kids come up to me and they say, you know,
I've had a a titanic moment, Doctor Gillen, maybe, uh,
(41:01):
my friend, I remember this one basketball player telling me
that his best friend tried to commit suicide because she
was feeling so unloved. And, uh. And so I write
about this notion of titanic moments in the book, and,
and I ask the reader, what is your Titanic moment?
And I'm asking your listeners right now, Are you going
through a titanic moment right now, or did you just
(41:24):
go through one? Uh, sooner or later you will have
a titanic moment. Maybe your life won't be on the line,
but your world will be completely upended. And you will be.
You'll feel helpless about what you can do. The situation
will be completely out of your control. And so I
talk about that book. I talk about that in the
book and say this to the reader, look, you are
(41:45):
free to believe whatever you want, okay? And those beliefs
are the foundation of your worldview. Those are like the
axioms of Euclidean geometry. These are the assumptions you make
about the world, about God, about yourself, about others. These
are your beliefs, your core beliefs, and your whole worldview
(42:07):
is founded on that. Now you're free to believe whatever
you want, but when a titanic moment strikes, you're going
to discover very quickly whether those beliefs are founded on
the absolute truths of the universe, or they are merely
your own prejudices or your own feelings, and that will
(42:29):
make the difference. Janet, between whether your. World will sink
like a rock, or you will soar like an eagle.
And so what I when I wrote this book, believing
is seen. It's with the earnest prayer that people who
(42:50):
read it will understand the the enormous importance of their worldview.
You see, we all have a worldview. And there are
three things about a worldview that are important. Number one,
what is it founded on? Is it founded on misguided
faith or enlightened faith? Number two, its size is it's big.
Is it big enough for God and science, or is
(43:12):
it just big enough for science? Or maybe even just
big enough for God? And maybe you hate science or
you fear it or you're wary of it. And then, um,
the the other thing is what is at its center,
because whatever is at its center, whatever your whole life
revolves around, that's your God. And so in this book,
(43:33):
I'm hoping that people will examine the worldview carefully so
that when a titanic moment strikes, they will be be prepared, uh,
well prepared to not only survive it, but to learn
and become stronger because of it.
S5 (43:51):
Oh.
S1 (43:51):
Michael, I could talk to you for hours and hours
and hours. There's so much more in the book than
we have had a chance to discuss. But I have
30s left. Oxford University word of the year. Post-truth. Now,
truth is ultimately individualized. You were in pursuit of truth,
whether it's in science or whether it was the beginning
of your spiritual journey. Is truth knowable? Now, if I
(44:13):
were to ask you today, would you say a different
answer today than you would have done 30 years ago.
S8 (44:18):
Truth is eternal. So even though the Bible is thousands
of years old, and many people want to make it
sound like it's obsolete, it isn't. It's timeless. The truths
of the Bible. Truth itself is timeless.
S1 (44:33):
Michael. Fabulous conversation and friends. I cannot stress enough that
as rich as this conversation was, there's so, so, so
much more to be added to it through this book,
particularly if you are a seeker, particularly if you are
a skeptic or a cynic, or you would classify yourself
as an atheist, or maybe an atheist whose world is
beginning to unravel a little bit. Because maybe as you
(44:54):
look around, things are starting to look a little bit different,
and you're trying to see whether or not seeing is believing,
Michael's going to challenge you. To say that it's really
believing is seeing, and seeing is reacting. You're going to
want to read his book. It's really a powerful testimony
of a powerful journey that now is about a very
important life. Thanks, friends. We'll see you next time.
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