May 14, 2025 • 44 mins
Narcissism is ugly, dangerous, and abusive, and it is not gender specific. We will open the phones as we talk with Laurel Slade-Waggoner about narcissism and start with the question: Can women have this personality disorder as well as men? How does a Christian respond to a narcissist? How can someone protect their mental, emotional, and spiritual health from a narcissist? Get your dialing fingers ready as the lines light up with questions on narcissism.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
it is my hope that you'll hear something that will
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(00:20):
book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
and all that he has done for us. It's a
magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
because trust me, every single one of us will find
(00:40):
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(01:22):
at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth
tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much. And now
please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:37):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a deal.
S1 (01:58):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you so much for spending the hour with us.
You need this. (877) 548-3675. Let me say it again. It
is our phone number here on in the market with
Janet Parshall. (877) 548-3675. Fair warning I'm going to tell you
in a second what the topic is, but let me
(02:18):
tell you before I tell you what the topic is,
the phone lines light up. We're going to talk about narcissism.
Oh you say why are you talking about it again.
Well because and I went back over my calendar. Laurel
and I have been talking about this subject for quite
a long period of time, and an absolute full disclosure
and complete transparency. I can't tell you how the lines
light up on this topic. And, you know, I hope
(02:39):
I'm not in the bottom half of my graduating class.
I tried to figure out that if you keep calling in,
the lines are stacked to the brim every time Laurel
Slade Wagoner comes and visit. Then we're tapping into something.
And I think that's something is pain. I think that
something is isolation. I think that something is you're desperately
looking for hope because you've gotten either some bad theology
(03:00):
or you've gotten some bad job esque kind of counseling
and what you're supposed to do while you're living with
a person who is abusing you. And by the way,
let the record reflect, because there's an awful lot of
conversation about abuse out there. There's a rather famous trial
going on right now in a big state here in
the United States, but it's in the news all the time.
The idea of sexual assault and sexual harassment, etc. the
list goes on and on and on. You do not
(03:23):
have to be physically punched to be abused. You can
be emotionally abused and sometimes that is harder to recover
from than the punch in the nose. So there is
pain here, and it's a kind of pain where a
lot of people can't say, but it can say, you
don't understand. He's one way with you and well, she's
another way with me. And you don't understand the Jekyll
(03:44):
and Hyde kind of aspect here. And it's getting tough,
by the way, for people to be believed when they
talk about having this kind of abuse in their life.
Not only that, we've got more and more people who
are becoming narcissists. Yes, I think we've got better diagnostic tools,
but oh my. You can't live in a world where
somebody sits in their bedroom and influences the rest of
the world as they whip their hair around their head
(04:05):
while they show me how to do makeup. And they
have a million followers. Do you think that doesn't feed
into the ego? Wow. There's no question that it does.
And then does it give license to the idea that
you are the center of the earth and it's my
way or the highway? So we're going to talk about
the causes of narcissism. That's where we're going to start
this hour. But I want to give you a chance.
It's just a starting point, because once we work through
(04:26):
this starting article, I'm going to share in a minute.
It's up to you. I want you to get your
question answered. If you need to use another name other
than your real name because you're afraid somebody's going to
recognize you, then do it. These hours are Oasis. It's
an oasis in the middle of a desert of isolation
and pain. And I want you to see it and
feel it and hear it that way. So I want
you to get your questions answered. This is not just selfishness,
(04:48):
you know. That's all of us, by the way. There's
not one righteous. No. Not one. All have sinned and
come short of the glory of God. This is a dangerous,
dangerous personality disorder and it can cause abuse not just
to the person on the receiving end. But there's a
generational impact. And it is. I've often said, and I'll
say it again, these people are felonious enough. They can't
(05:08):
get jailed and they're sick enough and they can't get institutionalized.
So they fall right in the middle with these, this
kind of sociopathy that's particularly problematic. So we're going to
roll up our sleeves and get into it all. But
you need this (877) 548-3675. So our teacher as always is
going to be Laurel Slade Wagner who we just love,
board certified professional Christian counselor, licensed mental health counselor, licensed
(05:31):
marriage and family therapist. Been working in the state of
Florida in the Tampa area in a private practice for
about 20 years. She's written a couple of books. Both
of them are on our website on the information page.
Don't let their crazy make you crazy. How to stay
sane and strong. When the narcissist in your life is
trying to control or abuse you, and then understanding, as
Laurel does, full well, that children are very often the
chess pieces in this wicked game. Her second book is
(05:53):
entitled Don't Let Their Crazy Make Your kids crazy. How
to shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation.
Soon she'll have another one that talks about the kind
of talk, the crazy talk that a narcissist puts out.
And I want to be at the front of the
line when that book is out. So Laurel and I
can talk about that. By the way, a great resource
is wherever you go to find podcasts. Help! I have
a narcissist in my life. It's a great free resource.
(06:15):
I also have a link to her website. So if
you wanted to privately and professionally go really deep with
Laurel on this topic, you have a way to do it.
She talks to people all over the United States. So
the website link is on our website as well. So
let me turn now to the very prestigious Cleveland Clinic.
This is an exquisite medical setup in Cleveland, Ohio. And
they're not unlike males, people who have all kinds of information.
(06:37):
So I was just interested in what their take was
on narcissism. And sure enough, they've got this very thorough
article entitled Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And one of the things
they talked about are the symptoms and the causes. I
thought it would be a great place for us to
start by talking about this, because we always get callers
who say, am I a narcissist? Well, the fact that
you're answering that question is a pretty good hint that
(06:58):
you're probably not. But how do you draw the distinction
in the minds where there is so much stigma around this,
as opposed to solid facts and information? How do you
begin to recognize the symptomatology of who is a narcissistic
personality disorder? So we're going to look at some of those.
But first I want to welcome you. Thank you so
much for being with us. Thank you for coming time
(07:18):
and time and time again. You know, when people start calling,
I'll stop asking you. But as long as they're calling,
we're going to continue to have these conversations. So let
me turn to Cleveland. They list eight pieces, eight different
pieces that are part of the symptomology of how I
could start to identify, um, a person who has a
narcissistic personality disorder. One of the ones that they begin
(07:40):
with is this grandiose sense of self-importance. Now they're immediately
people are going to translate that. And I understand why.
And I'd probably do the same thing through their lexicon
biblically and say, well, that's pride. Isn't that just pride?
But it's more than pride. Tell me where the distinction
is here.
S5 (07:55):
Hi, Janet. Thank you so much for having me back.
It's amazing. We've been talking for years and there's just
so much confusion about this. Even though culture is talking
about narcissism ad nauseam, we're just not talking about it
in the church. So I'm just so grateful for every
conversation that we have. But I think with the Cleveland Clinic, um,
(08:17):
the article was referring to was the diagnostic criteria for
narcissistic personality disorder. I think the way culture throws it
around it has diluted the potency of the word. It
is an actual psychiatric disorder in the DSM five, the
American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic manual. And so they're in order
(08:41):
to receive a diagnosis, you need to have five of
the nine criteria. So the first one is what you
mentioned has a grandiose sense of self-importance. So they they
see themselves as superior to everyone else, so they're oftentimes condescending.
They just have this air that that they can do
no wrong and everyone else does all the wrong. Um,
(09:03):
but we can talk about the the rest of them after.
S1 (09:06):
And that's just one that's just one of the criteria. Absolutely.
So let me take a break and come right back. (877) 548-3675.
You're going to drive this. Laurel and I will run
through these, um, markers if you will, quickly. And then
we're going to take your calls because you matter most
in this conversation. (877) 548-3675. Back after this. Life storms can
(09:35):
make us feel shipwrecked and lost. But there's wisdom in scriptures.
Most dramatic sea voyage in Mediterranean Sea Rules Robert Morgan
reveals powerful principles from Paul's shipwreck in the Book of Acts.
Ten biblical rules that will equip you to navigate life's
toughest waters with confidence and courage. As for your copy
of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, when you give a gift
of any amount to in the market. Call eight 7758.
(09:55):
That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with
Janet Parshall. Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. She's a
certified board certified Christian counselor in Florida, has a private practice.
Our focus is narcissism. A boatload of people already online.
Let me just ask you to quickly go through the
rest of the markers in this Cleveland article. And if
(10:16):
time allows or we have a slowdown in the calls,
we'll flesh some of these out. But we talked about
number one being a grandiose sense of self-importance. Now someone
who gets this diagnosis doesn't have to have all of these.
They just have to have some of these. What are
some of the other ones?
S5 (10:29):
Yes, they have to have five of the nine. So
the second is they are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance,
beauty or ideal love. So they're constantly questing after the
next best thing, the the next best step in a relationship.
They're not happy unless they're completely enmeshed with Was someone else.
(10:52):
The third is they believe that they're special and that
they can only be understood by other special people. So
there that relates to that superiority and putting other people
down because they believe they need to be treated as
if they're special and that there's something just completely different
about them. Um, they require excessive admiration and affirmation. They
(11:15):
get all of their self-worth from the outside. They don't
have a core self-worth from the inside. So they have
to have narcissistic feeding systems where they're constantly being fed, um,
confirmation of their specialness. Um, they have a sense of entitlement.
So they, they think that they should get everything that
(11:36):
they expect and that they desire. And if they don't,
that's where you see a lot of narcissistic rage, a
lot of all that manipulative behavior like gaslighting and emotional blackmail,
things like that. So next is their interpersonally exploitative. So
they don't attach to people, they attach to ideas, they
(11:58):
attach to things. Um, but they use people. So they
they think they view people as objects to get what
they want. So they have no trouble hurting other people
to get what they believe they're entitled to. Um, they
lack empathy, which goes along with that interpersonally exploitative criteria.
(12:20):
So they, they just they don't feel remorse for, for
hurting other people. They can literally I've seen it in session.
It's so sad. They a narcissistic spouse can sit there
with their crying spouse who's begging them to connect, and
they're just stone cold. There's no emotion on their face.
(12:41):
They just if anything, they get annoyed by someone else's tears.
They're not moved with compassion at all. Um, they struggle
with a lot of envy. So they either believe that
people are envious of them, or they're insanely jealous of
people who have more success than they do, and they're
given area of their pursuit and they're so arrogant, haughty
(13:04):
behaviors or attitudes. And so they're just not open to
looking at things from a different perspective. So, um, Proverbs
18 two A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but
delights in airing his own opinions. That's that arrogant, haughty behavior.
And so I just love that God talked about all
of this, even though we call it narcissism. God called
(13:26):
it biblical foolishness or mockers who make a mockery of
his instruction or wicked. They're all interchanged in the Bible.
But there is nothing that isn't that that diagnostic manual
that God didn't talk about in the Bible?
S1 (13:42):
Yeah. Amen. And what a comfort that is to us.
All right, friends, now it's your turn. Any question you
have on this topic, you're wondering whether or not you
might be. You're wondering if you're married to someone who
might be, by the way, very often. And Laura will
tell you this, uh, there isn't even a recognition that
the spouse is a narcissist sometimes. 1015 we had a
caller once, Laurel, 34 years in marriage before they finally
(14:03):
decided to do something. So I tell you that, friends,
to be comforted, okay? Because this is a toughie. (877) 548-3675
is our number (877) 548-3675. And welcome, we're going to start
with you in Ohio. Thank you for being here. Your
question please. Are you talking. I am Ann go ahead.
(14:24):
Thank you.
S6 (14:25):
I'm sorry. Um, yes. My name is Ann and I
back in 2021, I did lead a narcissistic relationship. Uh,
it was a gentleman that I. I call him a gentleman,
but it was a man that I had married, um,
a couple of years after my husband had passed away.
(14:50):
He had actually been a mutual friend of ours who
came around after my husband was gone and gone and
started offering a bunch of help and so forth. And well, anyway,
to make a long story short, um, in the, uh,
I guess about three and a half year period, we
(15:10):
were together, uh, he had run through basically all of
my finances, and, uh, I ended up, um, leaving the state, uh,
and my home there, which I sold after I got
here to Ohio, uh, because I was fearful that it
was going to he had become abusive and, uh, first
(15:35):
emotionally and then physically. And then I actually became fearful,
you know, almost for my life. And I felt like
I had to just get out of there. So I
have been away from there now for, um, going just
about four years. Um, but my question really is I
(15:57):
still have a lot of issues. Um, I live by myself.
I have a great job. I connected with a local church. Um,
but still, I. I really don't trust anybody.
S1 (16:14):
And now, let me stop you there. And, Laurel, can
you give her a response, please?
S5 (16:19):
Uh, everything that you're. Well, first of all, praise. Praise
our Lord that you got away and that you were
able to recognize that it was abusive and unhealthy and
you did something about it. So I just want your
story to encourage any listener who's stuck that that there
is hope you can break free. Um, you can put
(16:42):
a stop to the abuse. So and praise God that
you you got out. Now what you're talking about. There
are so many residuals to being in a relationship with
someone who's narcissistic. We we. Because they project all of
these lies onto us, we absorb them, and then we
start to live out of them, and then we internalize
(17:03):
it and then generalize it to our other relationships. And
so what you're struggling with is very, very common. And
there's help for that. You can work with the trauma
recovery counselor that can help you identify your core beliefs. Yeah.
And really get some help and reclaim your preciousness because
you are precious.
S1 (17:21):
Thank you. Thank you. And I appreciate it. Let me
take a break back after this. (877) 548-3675. That's our number
here on in the market with Janet Parshall. Laurel Slade
Wagner is our guest. And we are yet again tackling
the subject of narcissism and giving you the opportunity to
(17:43):
ask any question you have on this very difficult, painful,
hurtful topic and it is all that and a whole
lot more. (877) 548-3675. Carol, you're in Florida. Thanks for stopping by.
Your question please.
S7 (17:59):
Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Mine's a little bit different. Um,
I actually am in my 60s. My brothers and sisters are.
I have a sister who I now pretty much figured
out is a narcissist. Um, more recently, she was going
through some difficult times. She does live in another state,
(18:19):
and I was coming alongside her trying to help her. Um,
my husband and I are also guardians for a special
needs adult. My niece. We took responsibility for raising her. Um,
she is adult, um, about 13 years ago, and she
also is a Christian. But more recently my sister came
(18:40):
to visit with us for a while, and, uh, it
was at that time that I started to realize that
I was in the throes of a narcissist. I won't
go into all the other detail, but there's some toxicity
in my family and generational issues. But I discovered that
my sister was secretly texting our niece with, uh, information,
(19:07):
trying to pit her against my. Excuse me? My husband
and me. Excuse me. There was also a lot of
putting down of me and, uh, also with other family members,
I learned that she was, uh, basically, uh, ganging them
up against us. I did seek wise counsel with a
(19:31):
Christian friend who said that I need to cut off
communication with them. And this is hard because, um, you know,
I love my family, and I love, you know, our
niece and our niece did the right thing and came
to us and let us know what was going on.
So we talked about it. We talked about, you know,
what is good and what is the truth and what
(19:52):
is the right thing to do. Um, but my sister
is just, um, putting me down, ripping in. And right
now I'd like to keep a relationship with my family. Um. God,
God pulled me away from them, uh, a long time
ago to come to Florida. So that's that's where I am.
(20:12):
And how to recover from all of this and move
forward with a family relationship.
S1 (20:18):
Laurel.
S5 (20:20):
Well, Carol. Oh my goodness, it's so hard when it
is an extended family member like that because they do.
They're so good at triangulating and pitting and and creating
all these different alliances. So I agree with your wise
counsel that that pulling back if if your family isn't
(20:42):
willing to To see who you really are. To hear
your heart and your love behind your words. Then you
do have to pull back. They're there, aligned with your sister.
The most loving thing you can do is pull back.
So we'll separate it out with your sister. This isn't punishment.
(21:02):
This is. This really gives her an opportunity to think
about her behaviors and to experience some consequences. So when
we use the redemptive tool of separation, I want people
to know that it's not it's not out of punishment.
It is actually out of love. So this is the
most loving thing you can do for your sister. So
(21:23):
if you're struggling with any kind of false guilt, I
just want you to know that pulling back gives her
the best opportunity to fall at the feet of her
Savior and do things differently with your family. Um, you
can take a step back and have no contact. Um,
maybe at holidays you can send a card, or you
(21:44):
can find some kind of safe way to reach out
and just to reveal your character to them and let
them know that, okay, this is who Carol actually is.
You're a loving person and you're not reactive, and you
can try things like that over time, and your character
will be revealed by you being consistent in that and non-reactive.
(22:05):
If they're not safe enough to do that, then I
do recommend going no contact. And like I said, it's
not it's not out of punishment for them either. But
God does not want you to be aligned against and
triangulated against. And that's just what narcissistic people do. They
do it to children a lot too. And and it
breaks my heart to hear that they're doing it to
(22:26):
someone who's special needs. They take advantage of people. It's
just awful.
S1 (22:32):
Thank you, Carol, very much for being a part of
the conversation. Hope you found some encouragement there. James. Let
me welcome you from Minnesota. Thanks for stopping by. Your
question for Laurel, please.
S8 (22:41):
Yes, I believe my wife's narcissistic, and, uh, she's argumentative,
and and she came from an abusive home and, uh,
where she was shamed, and I, I said, I'm not
going to talk to you until you get help. I
don't I don't know. And she won't go for help.
(23:02):
She won't admit that she needs it.
S5 (23:05):
That's a tough one, James. And so I do recommend
working with a Christian counselor that can help you develop
a plan of action. Um, I have this in the.
I have a little bit on it in the first
book under the chapter on assertiveness. In the third book,
I'm writing a whole chapter on how to invite, uh,
someone who's narcissistic into a plan of change. So you
(23:30):
in writing, I call it the Joshua 2415 plan, because
Joshua 2415 says, if serving the Lord is undesirable to you,
you are free to choose what God God's you serve,
whether it's the gods of your ancestors the gods, the
living land. But as for me and my household, I'm
going to serve the Lord. And so you invite her
into a plan of change. I hear the music so
we can talk about what to do next after.
S1 (23:53):
Thanks so much. I appreciate James for being a part
of this. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Our
topic is narcissism. Don't forget there's lots of resources on
our information page tied back to Laurel and to this topic,
as well as her podcast, help! I have a narcissist
in my life. You can find that wherever you find podcasts.
Back after this. Anyone can read the news every day
(24:34):
on in the market. We're committed to telling the news
as seen through the lens of Scripture. As Christians, we
must be informed about what's going on in the world
and respond appropriately. When you become a partial partner, you
ensure that we continue here on your station, equipping the
church to discuss current events, using the Bible as our
solid foundation. Why not become a partial partner today? Call
eight 7758 or go online to in the market with
(24:55):
Janet Parshall. Laura Wagner is with us Certified Christian Counselor,
private Practice in Florida. Written a couple of great books
on this topic. Has a podcast. Got a website if
you want to talk with her personally and professionally. And Laurel,
we've got a lot of people, but I know you
had a couple of more things you wanted to say
as an encouragement to James, as he's looking for what
(25:15):
he can do next.
S5 (25:17):
Yes. So I recommend this. Joshua 2415. It's really an invitation.
And you do it in writing because you said she's
very argumentative as people who struggle with narcissism are. So
you put it in writing. You invite her into this
plan of change. You let her know what you need
her to work on. You let her know what you're
going to work on, and then you give her the choice.
(25:40):
If she's willing to work on it, then you find
a counselor to work with. If she's not willing to
work on it and she starts all that manipulative behavior,
all that blame shifting and gaslighting and and just being
belligerent and argumentative, then that's where you work with a
counselor to help you kind of go through logistics of, okay,
(26:03):
if I have to employ the redemptive tool of separation,
what is that going to look like? Um, will it
mean an in-house separation? Will it mean an outhouse separation?
But it's not like I was telling the other caller
it's not out of punishment. It's out of. It's a
strategy that God outlines in Matthew 1815 through 17. So
(26:24):
he's very strategic, and he has this process and the
whole goal of we speak the truth in love. We
get the witnesses, we take it to the church. And
then if people won't listen, that's being biblically foolish. And
that's where we employ that redemptive tool of separation with
the hopes and prayer that they will recognize their need
to do things God's way.
S1 (26:46):
Excellent. Thank you so much for that, James. I hope
you're encouraged. 87754836758775483675. Lots of people online with your questions.
And let me go to Joanne who joins us from Illinois. Joanne, welcome.
And your question for Laurel, please.
S9 (27:02):
All right. Thank you. My question is I'm the mother
of the son who I believe is checks all the
boxes for narcissistic. His wife, however, thinks he has PTSD.
But I need help in how to approach him. He's
abandoned the family. He's in an affair. He's spending money,
(27:27):
and he's always angry.
S5 (27:31):
Oh, well, it sounds like he's already separated himself. So
first of all, there's lots of reasons. I don't want
you to struggle with any kind of false guilt. There's
lots of reasons that someone behaves narcissistically. And so I don't.
I don't want you to think that this is your doing.
So there is a big difference between narcissistic personality disorder
(27:54):
and post-traumatic stress disorder. So even if someone has post-traumatic
stress disorder, um, if they're having if they went through
some kind of abusive experience where, um, maybe they're having
nightmares and flashbacks and they have that hypervigilance and that
overreactivity and all those different things, they are still responsible
(28:17):
to get some treatment for that, and they are still
responsible to treat people in a respectful way. So I
see a lot of people get hung up and stay
stuck because they say, oh, no, well, he went through
something terrible or she, you know, she has PTSD. No,
we all have personal No responsibility. The Bible says we
(28:39):
are to carry our own load and and taking care
of ourself is part of that load to carry. And
so if someone has PTSD, they need to get the
help that they need so that they can be at
peace with themselves, be at peace with God, be at
peace with other people. So I don't I don't want
people excusing narcissistic behavior because there might be another diagnosis
(29:03):
out there. Um, so it sounds like you're you're already
separated from him. You can pray. You can pray. You
can from a distance. If you send him a note,
encourage him to get some help, that he is free
to choose what to do with that. Um, but you're
your most powerful line of defense is prayer and taking
(29:25):
it to the Lord because he doesn't sound safe to
really confront any other way that from a distance.
S1 (29:31):
Thank you, Joanne. Appreciate you being here. Lisa in Oregon. Welcome.
Your question now please.
S10 (29:36):
Yes. My son was married for 16 years to a
narcissist and recently divorced. In order to. Mainly, he wants
to protect his four boys and keep them safe. And, um,
she has really taken him through the wringer legally and
financially and all of those things. And we're starting to
(29:59):
see some behavior in the boys that's really concerning. She, uh,
he has full custody, but she has them 50 over
50 part of the time. And so what I'm wondering is, um,
it's kind of frustrating. Is, is there are there legal
things that can be done? Um, what can we do
(30:19):
to protect these boys? Um, she's not keeping to the plan,
all of those things, so.
S5 (30:25):
Yeah. And that that is a tough one. I'm so
glad that that he was able to get out of
that relationship. And it is. Jan and I have talked
about this so much about how children are caught in
the crossfire like that. So he does have some legal
recourse so he can hire, um, there's parent coordinators where
(30:48):
he can have her come in and have a meeting
with him and the parent coordinator and his boy's mom.
And then there's accountability. So he can he can express
his needs, try to get the some kind of parallel, um,
parenting plans in order. Um, so there's accountability for her
to be more structured and to abide by those rules.
(31:12):
If that doesn't work, there's also guardian ad litem that
he can hire on behalf of the kids. So, um,
that person can advocate on behalf of the kids. So
with the four boys, I don't know if a all
the different dynamics that go on between them or if
some of them want to go with her, some of
them don't want to go with her. But guardians are very,
very helpful. Um, so he's not stuck. He's not alone.
(31:35):
I say he can pay for an hour of legal counsel.
There's someone in his state. Just write down all of
the questions that he has and pay for a competent
attorney's time. Um, that understands personality disorders so he can
get all of his questions answered and get maybe some
(31:57):
local resources. So there is there is help out there. Um.
S1 (32:03):
And I thank you so for being a part of this.
(877) 548-3675 Lisa, you've been so patient in Ohio and I
greatly appreciate it. Your question please.
S11 (32:13):
Hi. Yes, thank you for taking my call. Um, my
question is about, um, having a narcissistic pastor. Um, I
have removed myself from the situation, but there are still
people that I love dearly in the church, and I
was just wondering, what? Is there anything that I can.
S1 (32:34):
Know. I'm sorry. Lisa, it sounds like you were on
a speakerphone. I think we got enough of the question
to be able to help you and Laurel. If I
can expand this greater. Not just a pastor, but a boss.
Someone in leadership who has this personality disorder. What does
one do.
S5 (32:48):
That that is happening more and more. So you try
to figure out any, any sources that you can go
to within that church. So if there's a narcissistic pastor,
is there a board of elders or is there a
leadership board? Um, you've got to get some other eyes
on it. Um, I do recommend making complaints. Sometimes churches
(33:13):
outsource HR departments and things like that. And so you
want to make sure that things go on record for
these different behaviors. I think that it's becoming a problem
with a lot of the megachurches and, um, a lot
of the attention, um, because narcissists, they're drawn to careers
(33:33):
where they get a lot of attention and they have
a lot of control. So a head pastor role provides
that for a lot of people, especially in the megachurches.
So just looking to see if you if there's any
kind of check and balance or any kind of help
that you can go to if churches don't have that,
they need it. And so maybe you can bring that
(33:55):
to someone's attention or just start getting some. I recommend
to people we are all one body of Christ. So
go visit another church just to do a Bible study.
Just get get loved on by some other people. See
how they do church over there. Um, there's also a
Celebrate Recovery program. Um, at a lot of churches, they
(34:17):
have a codependency group, and they have facilitators there that
really understand, um, the improper the imbalances of power within relationships.
So you could join a group like that. But the
goal is just to get out there and and get
some other eyes on it, or just have your voice
heard at another place so that you can get some
(34:38):
wisdom and know that this is not the way that
it is intended to be. Mm.
S1 (34:43):
Thank you so much for the question again. I hope
you found some encouragement in that. (877) 548-3675. Lisa, likewise in Ohio.
Your question please.
S12 (34:53):
Um, yes. I wondered if there's life after being married
to a narcissist for 20 years. Um, I, I actually
one night just called the the domestic violence shelter because
I knew things weren't right. And I, I met with
a counselor three weeks and then put in the work
(35:15):
and realized it wasn't about love, it was about control. But, um,
the one thing I, I. I can't seem to get
over that fear of getting involved with another. I mean,
if God wants to bring me another man. But it's
(35:36):
like I won't allow anybody just for the experience I
went through and how much trauma and what it put
me through. So, um, it's really damaging and there's a
lot of spiritual warfare in it.
S1 (35:49):
I know that, Laurel. You want to respond. So if
you don't mind, I'm going to put you back on hold. Lisa,
thank you for that. I'm going to ask Laurel to
respond again. Let me remind you, there are lots of resources,
a link directly to Laurel's website. So if you want
to talk privately and professionally, you can do that. All
this is on the information page. Two excellent books dealing
with narcissism and also a free podcast. Help! I have
(36:11):
a narcissist in my life. Lisa, we're going to give
you a little more insight when we return back after this. 87754836758775483675. Laura. Lisa.
(36:39):
This goes exactly to what we were saying earlier in
our conversation today. 20 years and now the abuse. So
the point we have to call a domestic hotline. So
what encouragement can you give Lisa.
S5 (36:50):
Well Lisa, your your first question was, um, is there
is there hope that you can have a different life,
a better life, and absolutely 100% I can say yes. Um, I'm,
I lived it, so I have credentials and I'm a
trained therapist, but I also grew up with narcissistic parents.
(37:12):
And I also because that's what was familiar to me,
I gravitated toward narcissism. I was actually attracted to narcissism.
And I married someone who was narcissistic. And we ended
up divorcing. And I have a very, very messy story.
But I'm talking to Janet Parshall Partial right now, and
I have a wonderful husband and I have great relationships
(37:34):
with my with my kids. And God redeemed all of it.
Everything that I've been through, he redeemed. And I'm thankful
for every single second because I get to talk to
people like you, um, and, and give them hope. So
I know it personally. I know it professionally. But I
recommend you get into some good trauma recovery counseling that
(37:55):
can help you really dig through all of the impacts,
all the lies that you believe about yourself that can, um,
it's okay that you don't trust people. Now, that is
absolutely a byproduct of going through what you went through.
And so it's this discovering you're rediscovering your preciousness and
knowing that you were not created to be treated as
(38:18):
you were. And and you do a lot of learning
of what healthy relationship is. You fix your picker so
you you gravitate toward healthy people. Um, sometimes we have
to relearn what to be attracted to. Like I said,
I was attracted to narcissism. So I had to learn
how to pick friends and, um, pick someone to date
(38:40):
and eventually marry out of my value system, not out
of my attraction system, because it was broken. Um. And
I had to realize why it was broken, what was
broken about it, and fix that. And so there's all
kinds of work to do, but it's so worth the work.
And you can have a fulfilling life whether you date
(39:02):
in the future or you don't date in the future,
God can give you such a fulfilling life with him
and with other sisters in Christ and and have a
lot of fun. I have lots of people that I
work with that don't ever remarry, and they're happy and content.
So I don't know what the Lord will bring, but
I do know that he can bring you all of
(39:23):
his good gifts and give you tremendous joy and healing.
S1 (39:27):
Thank you, thank you, thank you Lisa. Be encouraged. (877) 548-3675. Narcissism.
Our conversation. Topic. Our guest, Laurel Slade Wagner. And as
always happens the lines just keep lighting up. Because as
I said before, there's a lot of hurt and pain
out there. Um. (877) 548-3675. Deanna, welcome from Illinois. Glad you're here.
(39:47):
Your question please.
S13 (39:48):
Hi. I was just wondering if narcissism is connected to, um, pornography,
the addiction to pornography.
S5 (40:01):
Um, I believe that there are some overlaps. So not
everyone that struggles with pornography. Pornography is narcissistic. And not
everyone that's narcissistic struggles with pornography. However, because they people
who struggle with narcissistic personality disorder, they have a tremendous
aversion or fear of intimacy. So they don't attach to people.
(40:25):
And so they they have this very shallow, um, quest
of of getting. They just need this excessive amount of affirmation.
And so pornography is a perfect way for them to
be able to maintain control and to, to have exactly
what they want, when they want it, since it's so
available all over, all over the place. So there's a
(40:47):
high correlation, but it doesn't mean that there's causation, if
that makes any sense.
S1 (40:52):
Um, can I ask because a caller had asked earlier
and the caller had to drop, and I'll ask on
their behalf in case they're still listening? Is there a
corollary between narcissism and the use of alcohol?
S5 (41:03):
Yes. Once again, so so when people are in active addiction,
they behave narcissistically. So but when they get sober, they
no longer behave narcissistically because when they're in an active addiction, they're, uh,
protecting that addiction. And so the people with the personality disorder, they're,
(41:25):
they struggle with things like depression or anxiety because of
that sense of entitlement and thinking that they're special. So
this world is going to disappoint them. People are going
to disappoint them, because not everyone's going to treat them
like they're special. And and not everyone is going to
believe in their superiority. So they are prone to depression
and anxiety and things like that. And so in that
(41:48):
they don't have coping skills, they will turn to things
like alcohol, um, a lot of drugs like Xanax. Um,
they like a lot of stimulants, um, to keep them
going and going after those quests that, that they are pursuing.
You know, whether it's that brilliance, beauty, um, just money
(42:13):
with their very greed driven things like that. So they're
prone to a lot of different addictions, not just alcohol.
S1 (42:21):
Um, thank you for that. I think people are beginning
to understand the complexity of this. 87754836758775483675. Matt, welcome. Your
question please. Matt, are you there? I'm going to try
one more time. Matt, are you there? Okay. Marie in Florida.
(42:42):
Thank you so for joining us. Your question please.
S14 (42:46):
Yes. Do narcissists steal from their spouse or family?
S3 (42:50):
Hmm.
S5 (42:51):
Um, because of their lack of empathy and their sense
of entitlement. Yes, it's very common. Um, especially if you're
going through a divorce. They lie. They hide. Um, they
do anything to protect what they believe that they're entitled to. So, um,
deceit is definitely something that they are capable of.
S3 (43:11):
Wow.
S1 (43:12):
I want to, if you don't mind, Laurel, go back
to your resources so that people understand that you've got
a lot of things out there that can help people
who are struggling in this area. The first book and
all of this is on the information page, but the
first book is called Don't Let Their crazy make you crazy.
How to stay sane and strong. When the narcissist in
your life is trying to control or abuse you. The
second book again, understanding the role that children get played
(43:34):
in this, not that they play that gets played by
the narcissist. The book is called Don't Let Their crazy
Make Your Kids Crazy. How to shield your children from
their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. If you go to
in the market with Janet Parshall, click on the red
box that's just below the description of each hour of
radio for that day. You'll see a red box that
says Program Details and Audio. Click that on and it
(43:57):
will take you over to the information page. And when
you get there, you're going to see a longer bio
for Laurel, a link to her website. Again, we put
that there in case you want to go professional and
private with Laurel, not just talk on national radio and
on the right hand side, the two books. Don't forget.
Also wherever you can find a podcast. Help! I have
a narcissist in my life, Lord willing. And if he
should give us more time on this planet, Laurel and
(44:19):
I will take this subject up again. So write down
your questions and we'll talk again soon. Thank you Laurel.
Thank you friends.
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
it is my hope that you'll hear something that will
challenge you, grow you up in him, and get you
out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening,
let me take a moment and tell you what this
month's truth tool is. It's the Mediterranean Sea Rules by
Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air
because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book,
he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the
(00:20):
book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
and all that he has done for us. It's a
magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
because trust me, every single one of us will find
(00:40):
ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage
through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea
Rules by calling 877 58, that's 877 Janet 58 or
go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Scroll
to the bottom of the page. There's the book. Click
it on, Make Your Gift and we'll send you a copy.
My way of saying thank you because we are listener
(01:01):
supported radio. Your gifts keep this broadcast on the air.
By the way, if you'd like to give regularly, you're
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(01:22):
at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth
tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much. And now
please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:37):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a deal.
S1 (01:58):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you so much for spending the hour with us.
You need this. (877) 548-3675. Let me say it again. It
is our phone number here on in the market with
Janet Parshall. (877) 548-3675. Fair warning I'm going to tell you
in a second what the topic is, but let me
(02:18):
tell you before I tell you what the topic is,
the phone lines light up. We're going to talk about narcissism.
Oh you say why are you talking about it again.
Well because and I went back over my calendar. Laurel
and I have been talking about this subject for quite
a long period of time, and an absolute full disclosure
and complete transparency. I can't tell you how the lines
light up on this topic. And, you know, I hope
(02:39):
I'm not in the bottom half of my graduating class.
I tried to figure out that if you keep calling in,
the lines are stacked to the brim every time Laurel
Slade Wagoner comes and visit. Then we're tapping into something.
And I think that's something is pain. I think that
something is isolation. I think that something is you're desperately
looking for hope because you've gotten either some bad theology
(03:00):
or you've gotten some bad job esque kind of counseling
and what you're supposed to do while you're living with
a person who is abusing you. And by the way,
let the record reflect, because there's an awful lot of
conversation about abuse out there. There's a rather famous trial
going on right now in a big state here in
the United States, but it's in the news all the time.
The idea of sexual assault and sexual harassment, etc. the
list goes on and on and on. You do not
(03:23):
have to be physically punched to be abused. You can
be emotionally abused and sometimes that is harder to recover
from than the punch in the nose. So there is
pain here, and it's a kind of pain where a
lot of people can't say, but it can say, you
don't understand. He's one way with you and well, she's
another way with me. And you don't understand the Jekyll
(03:44):
and Hyde kind of aspect here. And it's getting tough,
by the way, for people to be believed when they
talk about having this kind of abuse in their life.
Not only that, we've got more and more people who
are becoming narcissists. Yes, I think we've got better diagnostic tools,
but oh my. You can't live in a world where
somebody sits in their bedroom and influences the rest of
the world as they whip their hair around their head
(04:05):
while they show me how to do makeup. And they
have a million followers. Do you think that doesn't feed
into the ego? Wow. There's no question that it does.
And then does it give license to the idea that
you are the center of the earth and it's my
way or the highway? So we're going to talk about
the causes of narcissism. That's where we're going to start
this hour. But I want to give you a chance.
It's just a starting point, because once we work through
(04:26):
this starting article, I'm going to share in a minute.
It's up to you. I want you to get your
question answered. If you need to use another name other
than your real name because you're afraid somebody's going to
recognize you, then do it. These hours are Oasis. It's
an oasis in the middle of a desert of isolation
and pain. And I want you to see it and
feel it and hear it that way. So I want
you to get your questions answered. This is not just selfishness,
(04:48):
you know. That's all of us, by the way. There's
not one righteous. No. Not one. All have sinned and
come short of the glory of God. This is a dangerous,
dangerous personality disorder and it can cause abuse not just
to the person on the receiving end. But there's a
generational impact. And it is. I've often said, and I'll
say it again, these people are felonious enough. They can't
(05:08):
get jailed and they're sick enough and they can't get institutionalized.
So they fall right in the middle with these, this
kind of sociopathy that's particularly problematic. So we're going to
roll up our sleeves and get into it all. But
you need this (877) 548-3675. So our teacher as always is
going to be Laurel Slade Wagner who we just love,
board certified professional Christian counselor, licensed mental health counselor, licensed
(05:31):
marriage and family therapist. Been working in the state of
Florida in the Tampa area in a private practice for
about 20 years. She's written a couple of books. Both
of them are on our website on the information page.
Don't let their crazy make you crazy. How to stay
sane and strong. When the narcissist in your life is
trying to control or abuse you, and then understanding, as
Laurel does, full well, that children are very often the
chess pieces in this wicked game. Her second book is
(05:53):
entitled Don't Let Their Crazy Make Your kids crazy. How
to shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation.
Soon she'll have another one that talks about the kind
of talk, the crazy talk that a narcissist puts out.
And I want to be at the front of the
line when that book is out. So Laurel and I
can talk about that. By the way, a great resource
is wherever you go to find podcasts. Help! I have
a narcissist in my life. It's a great free resource.
(06:15):
I also have a link to her website. So if
you wanted to privately and professionally go really deep with
Laurel on this topic, you have a way to do it.
She talks to people all over the United States. So
the website link is on our website as well. So
let me turn now to the very prestigious Cleveland Clinic.
This is an exquisite medical setup in Cleveland, Ohio. And
they're not unlike males, people who have all kinds of information.
(06:37):
So I was just interested in what their take was
on narcissism. And sure enough, they've got this very thorough
article entitled Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And one of the things
they talked about are the symptoms and the causes. I
thought it would be a great place for us to
start by talking about this, because we always get callers
who say, am I a narcissist? Well, the fact that
you're answering that question is a pretty good hint that
(06:58):
you're probably not. But how do you draw the distinction
in the minds where there is so much stigma around this,
as opposed to solid facts and information? How do you
begin to recognize the symptomatology of who is a narcissistic
personality disorder? So we're going to look at some of those.
But first I want to welcome you. Thank you so
much for being with us. Thank you for coming time
(07:18):
and time and time again. You know, when people start calling,
I'll stop asking you. But as long as they're calling,
we're going to continue to have these conversations. So let
me turn to Cleveland. They list eight pieces, eight different
pieces that are part of the symptomology of how I
could start to identify, um, a person who has a
narcissistic personality disorder. One of the ones that they begin
(07:40):
with is this grandiose sense of self-importance. Now they're immediately
people are going to translate that. And I understand why.
And I'd probably do the same thing through their lexicon
biblically and say, well, that's pride. Isn't that just pride?
But it's more than pride. Tell me where the distinction
is here.
S5 (07:55):
Hi, Janet. Thank you so much for having me back.
It's amazing. We've been talking for years and there's just
so much confusion about this. Even though culture is talking
about narcissism ad nauseam, we're just not talking about it
in the church. So I'm just so grateful for every
conversation that we have. But I think with the Cleveland Clinic, um,
(08:17):
the article was referring to was the diagnostic criteria for
narcissistic personality disorder. I think the way culture throws it
around it has diluted the potency of the word. It
is an actual psychiatric disorder in the DSM five, the
American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic manual. And so they're in order
(08:41):
to receive a diagnosis, you need to have five of
the nine criteria. So the first one is what you
mentioned has a grandiose sense of self-importance. So they they
see themselves as superior to everyone else, so they're oftentimes condescending.
They just have this air that that they can do
no wrong and everyone else does all the wrong. Um,
(09:03):
but we can talk about the the rest of them after.
S1 (09:06):
And that's just one that's just one of the criteria. Absolutely.
So let me take a break and come right back. (877) 548-3675.
You're going to drive this. Laurel and I will run
through these, um, markers if you will, quickly. And then
we're going to take your calls because you matter most
in this conversation. (877) 548-3675. Back after this. Life storms can
(09:35):
make us feel shipwrecked and lost. But there's wisdom in scriptures.
Most dramatic sea voyage in Mediterranean Sea Rules Robert Morgan
reveals powerful principles from Paul's shipwreck in the Book of Acts.
Ten biblical rules that will equip you to navigate life's
toughest waters with confidence and courage. As for your copy
of The Mediterranean Sea Rules, when you give a gift
of any amount to in the market. Call eight 7758.
(09:55):
That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with
Janet Parshall. Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. She's a
certified board certified Christian counselor in Florida, has a private practice.
Our focus is narcissism. A boatload of people already online.
Let me just ask you to quickly go through the
rest of the markers in this Cleveland article. And if
(10:16):
time allows or we have a slowdown in the calls,
we'll flesh some of these out. But we talked about
number one being a grandiose sense of self-importance. Now someone
who gets this diagnosis doesn't have to have all of these.
They just have to have some of these. What are
some of the other ones?
S5 (10:29):
Yes, they have to have five of the nine. So
the second is they are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance,
beauty or ideal love. So they're constantly questing after the
next best thing, the the next best step in a relationship.
They're not happy unless they're completely enmeshed with Was someone else.
(10:52):
The third is they believe that they're special and that
they can only be understood by other special people. So
there that relates to that superiority and putting other people
down because they believe they need to be treated as
if they're special and that there's something just completely different
about them. Um, they require excessive admiration and affirmation. They
(11:15):
get all of their self-worth from the outside. They don't
have a core self-worth from the inside. So they have
to have narcissistic feeding systems where they're constantly being fed, um,
confirmation of their specialness. Um, they have a sense of entitlement.
So they, they think that they should get everything that
(11:36):
they expect and that they desire. And if they don't,
that's where you see a lot of narcissistic rage, a
lot of all that manipulative behavior like gaslighting and emotional blackmail,
things like that. So next is their interpersonally exploitative. So
they don't attach to people, they attach to ideas, they
(11:58):
attach to things. Um, but they use people. So they
they think they view people as objects to get what
they want. So they have no trouble hurting other people
to get what they believe they're entitled to. Um, they
lack empathy, which goes along with that interpersonally exploitative criteria.
(12:20):
So they, they just they don't feel remorse for, for
hurting other people. They can literally I've seen it in session.
It's so sad. They a narcissistic spouse can sit there
with their crying spouse who's begging them to connect, and
they're just stone cold. There's no emotion on their face.
(12:41):
They just if anything, they get annoyed by someone else's tears.
They're not moved with compassion at all. Um, they struggle
with a lot of envy. So they either believe that
people are envious of them, or they're insanely jealous of
people who have more success than they do, and they're
given area of their pursuit and they're so arrogant, haughty
(13:04):
behaviors or attitudes. And so they're just not open to
looking at things from a different perspective. So, um, Proverbs
18 two A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but
delights in airing his own opinions. That's that arrogant, haughty behavior.
And so I just love that God talked about all
of this, even though we call it narcissism. God called
(13:26):
it biblical foolishness or mockers who make a mockery of
his instruction or wicked. They're all interchanged in the Bible.
But there is nothing that isn't that that diagnostic manual
that God didn't talk about in the Bible?
S1 (13:42):
Yeah. Amen. And what a comfort that is to us.
All right, friends, now it's your turn. Any question you
have on this topic, you're wondering whether or not you
might be. You're wondering if you're married to someone who
might be, by the way, very often. And Laura will
tell you this, uh, there isn't even a recognition that
the spouse is a narcissist sometimes. 1015 we had a
caller once, Laurel, 34 years in marriage before they finally
(14:03):
decided to do something. So I tell you that, friends,
to be comforted, okay? Because this is a toughie. (877) 548-3675
is our number (877) 548-3675. And welcome, we're going to start
with you in Ohio. Thank you for being here. Your
question please. Are you talking. I am Ann go ahead.
(14:24):
Thank you.
S6 (14:25):
I'm sorry. Um, yes. My name is Ann and I
back in 2021, I did lead a narcissistic relationship. Uh,
it was a gentleman that I. I call him a gentleman,
but it was a man that I had married, um,
a couple of years after my husband had passed away.
(14:50):
He had actually been a mutual friend of ours who
came around after my husband was gone and gone and
started offering a bunch of help and so forth. And well, anyway,
to make a long story short, um, in the, uh,
I guess about three and a half year period, we
(15:10):
were together, uh, he had run through basically all of
my finances, and, uh, I ended up, um, leaving the state, uh,
and my home there, which I sold after I got
here to Ohio, uh, because I was fearful that it
was going to he had become abusive and, uh, first
(15:35):
emotionally and then physically. And then I actually became fearful,
you know, almost for my life. And I felt like
I had to just get out of there. So I
have been away from there now for, um, going just
about four years. Um, but my question really is I
(15:57):
still have a lot of issues. Um, I live by myself.
I have a great job. I connected with a local church. Um,
but still, I. I really don't trust anybody.
S1 (16:14):
And now, let me stop you there. And, Laurel, can
you give her a response, please?
S5 (16:19):
Uh, everything that you're. Well, first of all, praise. Praise
our Lord that you got away and that you were
able to recognize that it was abusive and unhealthy and
you did something about it. So I just want your
story to encourage any listener who's stuck that that there
is hope you can break free. Um, you can put
(16:42):
a stop to the abuse. So and praise God that
you you got out. Now what you're talking about. There
are so many residuals to being in a relationship with
someone who's narcissistic. We we. Because they project all of
these lies onto us, we absorb them, and then we
start to live out of them, and then we internalize
(17:03):
it and then generalize it to our other relationships. And
so what you're struggling with is very, very common. And
there's help for that. You can work with the trauma
recovery counselor that can help you identify your core beliefs. Yeah.
And really get some help and reclaim your preciousness because
you are precious.
S1 (17:21):
Thank you. Thank you. And I appreciate it. Let me
take a break back after this. (877) 548-3675. That's our number
here on in the market with Janet Parshall. Laurel Slade
Wagner is our guest. And we are yet again tackling
the subject of narcissism and giving you the opportunity to
(17:43):
ask any question you have on this very difficult, painful,
hurtful topic and it is all that and a whole
lot more. (877) 548-3675. Carol, you're in Florida. Thanks for stopping by.
Your question please.
S7 (17:59):
Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Mine's a little bit different. Um,
I actually am in my 60s. My brothers and sisters are.
I have a sister who I now pretty much figured
out is a narcissist. Um, more recently, she was going
through some difficult times. She does live in another state,
(18:19):
and I was coming alongside her trying to help her. Um,
my husband and I are also guardians for a special
needs adult. My niece. We took responsibility for raising her. Um,
she is adult, um, about 13 years ago, and she
also is a Christian. But more recently my sister came
(18:40):
to visit with us for a while, and, uh, it
was at that time that I started to realize that
I was in the throes of a narcissist. I won't
go into all the other detail, but there's some toxicity
in my family and generational issues. But I discovered that
my sister was secretly texting our niece with, uh, information,
(19:07):
trying to pit her against my. Excuse me? My husband
and me. Excuse me. There was also a lot of
putting down of me and, uh, also with other family members,
I learned that she was, uh, basically, uh, ganging them
up against us. I did seek wise counsel with a
(19:31):
Christian friend who said that I need to cut off
communication with them. And this is hard because, um, you know,
I love my family, and I love, you know, our
niece and our niece did the right thing and came
to us and let us know what was going on.
So we talked about it. We talked about, you know,
what is good and what is the truth and what
(19:52):
is the right thing to do. Um, but my sister
is just, um, putting me down, ripping in. And right
now I'd like to keep a relationship with my family. Um. God,
God pulled me away from them, uh, a long time
ago to come to Florida. So that's that's where I am.
(20:12):
And how to recover from all of this and move
forward with a family relationship.
S1 (20:18):
Laurel.
S5 (20:20):
Well, Carol. Oh my goodness, it's so hard when it
is an extended family member like that because they do.
They're so good at triangulating and pitting and and creating
all these different alliances. So I agree with your wise
counsel that that pulling back if if your family isn't
(20:42):
willing to To see who you really are. To hear
your heart and your love behind your words. Then you
do have to pull back. They're there, aligned with your sister.
The most loving thing you can do is pull back.
So we'll separate it out with your sister. This isn't punishment.
(21:02):
This is. This really gives her an opportunity to think
about her behaviors and to experience some consequences. So when
we use the redemptive tool of separation, I want people
to know that it's not it's not out of punishment.
It is actually out of love. So this is the
most loving thing you can do for your sister. So
(21:23):
if you're struggling with any kind of false guilt, I
just want you to know that pulling back gives her
the best opportunity to fall at the feet of her
Savior and do things differently with your family. Um, you
can take a step back and have no contact. Um,
maybe at holidays you can send a card, or you
(21:44):
can find some kind of safe way to reach out
and just to reveal your character to them and let
them know that, okay, this is who Carol actually is.
You're a loving person and you're not reactive, and you
can try things like that over time, and your character
will be revealed by you being consistent in that and non-reactive.
(22:05):
If they're not safe enough to do that, then I
do recommend going no contact. And like I said, it's
not it's not out of punishment for them either. But
God does not want you to be aligned against and
triangulated against. And that's just what narcissistic people do. They
do it to children a lot too. And and it
breaks my heart to hear that they're doing it to
(22:26):
someone who's special needs. They take advantage of people. It's
just awful.
S1 (22:32):
Thank you, Carol, very much for being a part of
the conversation. Hope you found some encouragement there. James. Let
me welcome you from Minnesota. Thanks for stopping by. Your
question for Laurel, please.
S8 (22:41):
Yes, I believe my wife's narcissistic, and, uh, she's argumentative,
and and she came from an abusive home and, uh,
where she was shamed, and I, I said, I'm not
going to talk to you until you get help. I
don't I don't know. And she won't go for help.
(23:02):
She won't admit that she needs it.
S5 (23:05):
That's a tough one, James. And so I do recommend
working with a Christian counselor that can help you develop
a plan of action. Um, I have this in the.
I have a little bit on it in the first
book under the chapter on assertiveness. In the third book,
I'm writing a whole chapter on how to invite, uh,
someone who's narcissistic into a plan of change. So you
(23:30):
in writing, I call it the Joshua 2415 plan, because
Joshua 2415 says, if serving the Lord is undesirable to you,
you are free to choose what God God's you serve,
whether it's the gods of your ancestors the gods, the
living land. But as for me and my household, I'm
going to serve the Lord. And so you invite her
into a plan of change. I hear the music so
we can talk about what to do next after.
S1 (23:53):
Thanks so much. I appreciate James for being a part
of this. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Our
topic is narcissism. Don't forget there's lots of resources on
our information page tied back to Laurel and to this topic,
as well as her podcast, help! I have a narcissist
in my life. You can find that wherever you find podcasts.
Back after this. Anyone can read the news every day
(24:34):
on in the market. We're committed to telling the news
as seen through the lens of Scripture. As Christians, we
must be informed about what's going on in the world
and respond appropriately. When you become a partial partner, you
ensure that we continue here on your station, equipping the
church to discuss current events, using the Bible as our
solid foundation. Why not become a partial partner today? Call
eight 7758 or go online to in the market with
(24:55):
Janet Parshall. Laura Wagner is with us Certified Christian Counselor,
private Practice in Florida. Written a couple of great books
on this topic. Has a podcast. Got a website if
you want to talk with her personally and professionally. And Laurel,
we've got a lot of people, but I know you
had a couple of more things you wanted to say
as an encouragement to James, as he's looking for what
(25:15):
he can do next.
S5 (25:17):
Yes. So I recommend this. Joshua 2415. It's really an invitation.
And you do it in writing because you said she's
very argumentative as people who struggle with narcissism are. So
you put it in writing. You invite her into this
plan of change. You let her know what you need
her to work on. You let her know what you're
going to work on, and then you give her the choice.
(25:40):
If she's willing to work on it, then you find
a counselor to work with. If she's not willing to
work on it and she starts all that manipulative behavior,
all that blame shifting and gaslighting and and just being
belligerent and argumentative, then that's where you work with a
counselor to help you kind of go through logistics of, okay,
(26:03):
if I have to employ the redemptive tool of separation,
what is that going to look like? Um, will it
mean an in-house separation? Will it mean an outhouse separation?
But it's not like I was telling the other caller
it's not out of punishment. It's out of. It's a
strategy that God outlines in Matthew 1815 through 17. So
(26:24):
he's very strategic, and he has this process and the
whole goal of we speak the truth in love. We
get the witnesses, we take it to the church. And
then if people won't listen, that's being biblically foolish. And
that's where we employ that redemptive tool of separation with
the hopes and prayer that they will recognize their need
to do things God's way.
S1 (26:46):
Excellent. Thank you so much for that, James. I hope
you're encouraged. 87754836758775483675. Lots of people online with your questions.
And let me go to Joanne who joins us from Illinois. Joanne, welcome.
And your question for Laurel, please.
S9 (27:02):
All right. Thank you. My question is I'm the mother
of the son who I believe is checks all the
boxes for narcissistic. His wife, however, thinks he has PTSD.
But I need help in how to approach him. He's
abandoned the family. He's in an affair. He's spending money,
(27:27):
and he's always angry.
S5 (27:31):
Oh, well, it sounds like he's already separated himself. So
first of all, there's lots of reasons. I don't want
you to struggle with any kind of false guilt. There's
lots of reasons that someone behaves narcissistically. And so I don't.
I don't want you to think that this is your doing.
So there is a big difference between narcissistic personality disorder
(27:54):
and post-traumatic stress disorder. So even if someone has post-traumatic
stress disorder, um, if they're having if they went through
some kind of abusive experience where, um, maybe they're having
nightmares and flashbacks and they have that hypervigilance and that
overreactivity and all those different things, they are still responsible
(28:17):
to get some treatment for that, and they are still
responsible to treat people in a respectful way. So I
see a lot of people get hung up and stay
stuck because they say, oh, no, well, he went through
something terrible or she, you know, she has PTSD. No,
we all have personal No responsibility. The Bible says we
(28:39):
are to carry our own load and and taking care
of ourself is part of that load to carry. And
so if someone has PTSD, they need to get the
help that they need so that they can be at
peace with themselves, be at peace with God, be at
peace with other people. So I don't I don't want
people excusing narcissistic behavior because there might be another diagnosis
(29:03):
out there. Um, so it sounds like you're you're already
separated from him. You can pray. You can pray. You
can from a distance. If you send him a note,
encourage him to get some help, that he is free
to choose what to do with that. Um, but you're
your most powerful line of defense is prayer and taking
(29:25):
it to the Lord because he doesn't sound safe to
really confront any other way that from a distance.
S1 (29:31):
Thank you, Joanne. Appreciate you being here. Lisa in Oregon. Welcome.
Your question now please.
S10 (29:36):
Yes. My son was married for 16 years to a
narcissist and recently divorced. In order to. Mainly, he wants
to protect his four boys and keep them safe. And, um,
she has really taken him through the wringer legally and
financially and all of those things. And we're starting to
(29:59):
see some behavior in the boys that's really concerning. She, uh,
he has full custody, but she has them 50 over
50 part of the time. And so what I'm wondering is, um,
it's kind of frustrating. Is, is there are there legal
things that can be done? Um, what can we do
(30:19):
to protect these boys? Um, she's not keeping to the plan,
all of those things, so.
S5 (30:25):
Yeah. And that that is a tough one. I'm so
glad that that he was able to get out of
that relationship. And it is. Jan and I have talked
about this so much about how children are caught in
the crossfire like that. So he does have some legal
recourse so he can hire, um, there's parent coordinators where
(30:48):
he can have her come in and have a meeting
with him and the parent coordinator and his boy's mom.
And then there's accountability. So he can he can express
his needs, try to get the some kind of parallel, um,
parenting plans in order. Um, so there's accountability for her
to be more structured and to abide by those rules.
(31:12):
If that doesn't work, there's also guardian ad litem that
he can hire on behalf of the kids. So, um,
that person can advocate on behalf of the kids. So
with the four boys, I don't know if a all
the different dynamics that go on between them or if
some of them want to go with her, some of
them don't want to go with her. But guardians are very,
very helpful. Um, so he's not stuck. He's not alone.
(31:35):
I say he can pay for an hour of legal counsel.
There's someone in his state. Just write down all of
the questions that he has and pay for a competent
attorney's time. Um, that understands personality disorders so he can
get all of his questions answered and get maybe some
(31:57):
local resources. So there is there is help out there. Um.
S1 (32:03):
And I thank you so for being a part of this.
(877) 548-3675 Lisa, you've been so patient in Ohio and I
greatly appreciate it. Your question please.
S11 (32:13):
Hi. Yes, thank you for taking my call. Um, my
question is about, um, having a narcissistic pastor. Um, I
have removed myself from the situation, but there are still
people that I love dearly in the church, and I
was just wondering, what? Is there anything that I can.
S1 (32:34):
Know. I'm sorry. Lisa, it sounds like you were on
a speakerphone. I think we got enough of the question
to be able to help you and Laurel. If I
can expand this greater. Not just a pastor, but a boss.
Someone in leadership who has this personality disorder. What does
one do.
S5 (32:48):
That that is happening more and more. So you try
to figure out any, any sources that you can go
to within that church. So if there's a narcissistic pastor,
is there a board of elders or is there a
leadership board? Um, you've got to get some other eyes
on it. Um, I do recommend making complaints. Sometimes churches
(33:13):
outsource HR departments and things like that. And so you
want to make sure that things go on record for
these different behaviors. I think that it's becoming a problem
with a lot of the megachurches and, um, a lot
of the attention, um, because narcissists, they're drawn to careers
(33:33):
where they get a lot of attention and they have
a lot of control. So a head pastor role provides
that for a lot of people, especially in the megachurches.
So just looking to see if you if there's any
kind of check and balance or any kind of help
that you can go to if churches don't have that,
they need it. And so maybe you can bring that
(33:55):
to someone's attention or just start getting some. I recommend
to people we are all one body of Christ. So
go visit another church just to do a Bible study.
Just get get loved on by some other people. See
how they do church over there. Um, there's also a
Celebrate Recovery program. Um, at a lot of churches, they
(34:17):
have a codependency group, and they have facilitators there that
really understand, um, the improper the imbalances of power within relationships.
So you could join a group like that. But the
goal is just to get out there and and get
some other eyes on it, or just have your voice
heard at another place so that you can get some
(34:38):
wisdom and know that this is not the way that
it is intended to be. Mm.
S1 (34:43):
Thank you so much for the question again. I hope
you found some encouragement in that. (877) 548-3675. Lisa, likewise in Ohio.
Your question please.
S12 (34:53):
Um, yes. I wondered if there's life after being married
to a narcissist for 20 years. Um, I, I actually
one night just called the the domestic violence shelter because
I knew things weren't right. And I, I met with
a counselor three weeks and then put in the work
(35:15):
and realized it wasn't about love, it was about control. But, um,
the one thing I, I. I can't seem to get
over that fear of getting involved with another. I mean,
if God wants to bring me another man. But it's
(35:36):
like I won't allow anybody just for the experience I
went through and how much trauma and what it put
me through. So, um, it's really damaging and there's a
lot of spiritual warfare in it.
S1 (35:49):
I know that, Laurel. You want to respond. So if
you don't mind, I'm going to put you back on hold. Lisa,
thank you for that. I'm going to ask Laurel to
respond again. Let me remind you, there are lots of resources,
a link directly to Laurel's website. So if you want
to talk privately and professionally, you can do that. All
this is on the information page. Two excellent books dealing
with narcissism and also a free podcast. Help! I have
(36:11):
a narcissist in my life. Lisa, we're going to give
you a little more insight when we return back after this. 87754836758775483675. Laura. Lisa.
(36:39):
This goes exactly to what we were saying earlier in
our conversation today. 20 years and now the abuse. So
the point we have to call a domestic hotline. So
what encouragement can you give Lisa.
S5 (36:50):
Well Lisa, your your first question was, um, is there
is there hope that you can have a different life,
a better life, and absolutely 100% I can say yes. Um, I'm,
I lived it, so I have credentials and I'm a
trained therapist, but I also grew up with narcissistic parents.
(37:12):
And I also because that's what was familiar to me,
I gravitated toward narcissism. I was actually attracted to narcissism.
And I married someone who was narcissistic. And we ended
up divorcing. And I have a very, very messy story.
But I'm talking to Janet Parshall Partial right now, and
I have a wonderful husband and I have great relationships
(37:34):
with my with my kids. And God redeemed all of it.
Everything that I've been through, he redeemed. And I'm thankful
for every single second because I get to talk to
people like you, um, and, and give them hope. So
I know it personally. I know it professionally. But I
recommend you get into some good trauma recovery counseling that
(37:55):
can help you really dig through all of the impacts,
all the lies that you believe about yourself that can, um,
it's okay that you don't trust people. Now, that is
absolutely a byproduct of going through what you went through.
And so it's this discovering you're rediscovering your preciousness and
knowing that you were not created to be treated as
(38:18):
you were. And and you do a lot of learning
of what healthy relationship is. You fix your picker so
you you gravitate toward healthy people. Um, sometimes we have
to relearn what to be attracted to. Like I said,
I was attracted to narcissism. So I had to learn
how to pick friends and, um, pick someone to date
(38:40):
and eventually marry out of my value system, not out
of my attraction system, because it was broken. Um. And
I had to realize why it was broken, what was
broken about it, and fix that. And so there's all
kinds of work to do, but it's so worth the work.
And you can have a fulfilling life whether you date
(39:02):
in the future or you don't date in the future,
God can give you such a fulfilling life with him
and with other sisters in Christ and and have a
lot of fun. I have lots of people that I
work with that don't ever remarry, and they're happy and content.
So I don't know what the Lord will bring, but
I do know that he can bring you all of
(39:23):
his good gifts and give you tremendous joy and healing.
S1 (39:27):
Thank you, thank you, thank you Lisa. Be encouraged. (877) 548-3675. Narcissism.
Our conversation. Topic. Our guest, Laurel Slade Wagner. And as
always happens the lines just keep lighting up. Because as
I said before, there's a lot of hurt and pain
out there. Um. (877) 548-3675. Deanna, welcome from Illinois. Glad you're here.
(39:47):
Your question please.
S13 (39:48):
Hi. I was just wondering if narcissism is connected to, um, pornography,
the addiction to pornography.
S5 (40:01):
Um, I believe that there are some overlaps. So not
everyone that struggles with pornography. Pornography is narcissistic. And not
everyone that's narcissistic struggles with pornography. However, because they people
who struggle with narcissistic personality disorder, they have a tremendous
aversion or fear of intimacy. So they don't attach to people.
(40:25):
And so they they have this very shallow, um, quest
of of getting. They just need this excessive amount of affirmation.
And so pornography is a perfect way for them to
be able to maintain control and to, to have exactly
what they want, when they want it, since it's so
available all over, all over the place. So there's a
(40:47):
high correlation, but it doesn't mean that there's causation, if
that makes any sense.
S1 (40:52):
Um, can I ask because a caller had asked earlier
and the caller had to drop, and I'll ask on
their behalf in case they're still listening? Is there a
corollary between narcissism and the use of alcohol?
S5 (41:03):
Yes. Once again, so so when people are in active addiction,
they behave narcissistically. So but when they get sober, they
no longer behave narcissistically because when they're in an active addiction, they're, uh,
protecting that addiction. And so the people with the personality disorder, they're,
(41:25):
they struggle with things like depression or anxiety because of
that sense of entitlement and thinking that they're special. So
this world is going to disappoint them. People are going
to disappoint them, because not everyone's going to treat them
like they're special. And and not everyone is going to
believe in their superiority. So they are prone to depression
and anxiety and things like that. And so in that
(41:48):
they don't have coping skills, they will turn to things
like alcohol, um, a lot of drugs like Xanax. Um,
they like a lot of stimulants, um, to keep them
going and going after those quests that, that they are pursuing.
You know, whether it's that brilliance, beauty, um, just money
(42:13):
with their very greed driven things like that. So they're
prone to a lot of different addictions, not just alcohol.
S1 (42:21):
Um, thank you for that. I think people are beginning
to understand the complexity of this. 87754836758775483675. Matt, welcome. Your
question please. Matt, are you there? I'm going to try
one more time. Matt, are you there? Okay. Marie in Florida.
(42:42):
Thank you so for joining us. Your question please.
S14 (42:46):
Yes. Do narcissists steal from their spouse or family?
S3 (42:50):
Hmm.
S5 (42:51):
Um, because of their lack of empathy and their sense
of entitlement. Yes, it's very common. Um, especially if you're
going through a divorce. They lie. They hide. Um, they
do anything to protect what they believe that they're entitled to. So, um,
deceit is definitely something that they are capable of.
S3 (43:11):
Wow.
S1 (43:12):
I want to, if you don't mind, Laurel, go back
to your resources so that people understand that you've got
a lot of things out there that can help people
who are struggling in this area. The first book and
all of this is on the information page, but the
first book is called Don't Let Their crazy make you crazy.
How to stay sane and strong. When the narcissist in
your life is trying to control or abuse you. The
second book again, understanding the role that children get played
(43:34):
in this, not that they play that gets played by
the narcissist. The book is called Don't Let Their crazy
Make Your Kids Crazy. How to shield your children from
their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. If you go to
in the market with Janet Parshall, click on the red
box that's just below the description of each hour of
radio for that day. You'll see a red box that
says Program Details and Audio. Click that on and it
(43:57):
will take you over to the information page. And when
you get there, you're going to see a longer bio
for Laurel, a link to her website. Again, we put
that there in case you want to go professional and
private with Laurel, not just talk on national radio and
on the right hand side, the two books. Don't forget.
Also wherever you can find a podcast. Help! I have
a narcissist in my life, Lord willing. And if he
should give us more time on this planet, Laurel and
(44:19):
I will take this subject up again. So write down
your questions and we'll talk again soon. Thank you Laurel.
Thank you friends.
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Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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