Hour 1: Hollywood and History

This hour, we learn how to pray specifically for those God has called to serve in the entertainment industry. Come with your prayer list. Then we discuss how a discovery by a shepherd boy not only made world history but provided even more reasons to trust the historicity of the Scriptures. Join us for a great conversation.

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:00):
Hi friends, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and it is my sincere hope that you'll hear something
that will equip you, edify you, encourage you, enlighten you,
and then gently but consistently push you out into the
marketplace of ideas where you can let your light so
shine before men and go and tell them the good news.
Before you listen to this podcast, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Jesus Book,

(00:20):
written by pastor Jack Graham. I love it because he
really does recognize the fact that biblical literacy is declining,
and that a lot of people think that the Bible
is too complicated, that it's written for pastors or for scholars.
And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
And that book was written for every single one of us.
We just need a better way to know how to
study God's Word. And that's exactly what the Jesus Book

(00:42):
is all about. So when you give a gift of
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(01:04):
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every single month, just call 877 Janet 58 or online
at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the
bottom of the page. Thanks so much for letting me
take a moment of your time. And now please enjoy
the broadcast.

S2 (01:23):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

S3 (01:25):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

S4 (01:28):
Americans worshiping government over God.

S5 (01:30):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.

S6 (01:33):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

S5 (01:36):
Today is not. Hi, friends.

S1 (01:51):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall and a
very happy Tuesday to you. We are going to go
from Hollywood to history this hour and a lot of
stuff in between. But I want to start with some news.
And because I care for you, I really want to
give you an opportunity to get a copy of this
month's truthful The Jesus Book by Doctor Jack Graham. It's
today and tomorrow. Tomorrow at midnight. This goes back on

(02:12):
the shelf come May 1st. On Thursday we start with
a brand new truth tool. So if you do not
yet have your copy of The Jesus Book by Doctor
Jack Graham, I want to encourage you to get a copy.
It's one that every single believer can benefit from. Why?
Because it teaches us how to make the most out
of God's Word. Remember, that isn't just any old book,
by the way. And if you're like our house, we've
got books on every single shelf. And come to think

(02:33):
of it, we've got books in every single room in
our house. But there's one that stands out. And yes,
there's a copy in every single room in our house.
And that is the book that is the Word of God.
Note the distinction here. It doesn't contain the Word of God.
And a lot of believers think that, according to George
Barnes research on American worldview, but it has everything to
do with understanding. It is the Word of God. God breathed,

(02:57):
God inspired, Inerrant means without mistake. Transcendent applies to all
people in all times and all places. Immutable, which means
it is truth. The definitive definition of truth. Can you
just take a collective sigh and say, thank you Lord,
I do. I thank him every morning when I get
up for his word that I don't have to stumble
in the dark. In fact, God knew that we would
without His Word. That's why the psalmist tells us that

(03:19):
His Word is a lamp unto our feet and a
light unto our path. I have to tell you, in
the days in which the shadow of cultural decay cast
a longer and longer shadow over the United States, I
am so grateful I don't have to take out a
moral compass and try to find true North. I instead
just pick up the Word of God. So I want
to encourage you. I know, particularly if you were raised
in the church, you heard about getting in the word

(03:41):
every single day, and you kind of yawn because you
hear it over and over and over again. But I'll
tell you, the older you get, the more you realize
it's like, forget the GPS on your phone now. Good
luck trying to get to Aunt Susie's house. And you've
never been there before. Well, the Word of God is
even much more important than that. It is the ultimate
GPS for our lives. It tells us who we are,
where we are, where we need to go and how

(04:01):
to get there. Nothing's better than that. Nothing's more important
than that. So I really want to encourage you to
spend time in the word, which is why I thoughtfully
and carefully and prayerfully, for that matter, chose the Jesus
Book as this month's Truth Tool, because I want you
to be able to get the overall narrative of the Bible.
I want you to develop some meaningful devotional practices. Devotion
just means you're showing your continuous love for God by

(04:23):
spending time in the word every single day. Step. Size
set aside. Step. Some of the common misinterpretations or mistakes
that are made in the Bible made in Bible interpretation. Rather,
forgive me for stumbling over that and how to apply
scripture to every single aspect of our life. So the
book is yours for a gift of any amount because
we are listener supported. Radio. Just call 877 Janet 58.

(04:44):
That's 877 Janet 58. Say, I'd like a copy of
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Got to scroll to the bottom of the page. There's
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Can't miss it. It's clear as can be. Click it on.
Make your gift takes you less than two minutes and
we'll send a copy of the book off to you.

(05:05):
It's our way of saying thank you for supporting in
the market, and when you do that, it keeps this
program going one step at a time, one day at
a time. And I thank you so much for that. Again,
the Jesus Book today and tomorrow and then it's on
the history shelf doesn't come down again. Well, we talked
yesterday about this bombing that took place in a port,
a very important port in Iran, this nefarious linkage between

(05:26):
Communist China and Iran. I told you that kind of
stuff gets me excited because as you go through life
with the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in
the other, you begin to see the pieces moving through
revelation and Ezekiel and Daniel. It's really very neat if
you're paying attention. Well, the president of the United States
has weighed in. Actually, the U.S. has weighed in and
said that it will stop Iran from its nuclear development.

(05:47):
Have a listen. Here's CBN news.

S7 (05:49):
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says any deal must deny
Iran a path to a nuclear weapon.

S8 (05:56):
A bad deal is worse than no deal. We need
a good deal.

S7 (06:01):
At the Jazz International Policy Summit. Israeli Strategic Affairs Minister
Ron Dermer noted President Trump pulled out of the previous
nuclear deal with Iran signed by President Obama, called the JCPoA.

S9 (06:15):
And I have a lot of confidence that President Trump
would walk away from a bad deal today, just as
he walked away from a bad deal then. And I
think he's been very clear Iran is never going to
have a nuclear weapon.

S7 (06:27):
America's new ambassador to Israel told the conference Monday that
if Iran doesn't abandon its quest for nuclear weapons, President Trump, quote,
won't be dragged into a war. He'll lead it.

S10 (06:39):
I think the president has been as clear as any
political figure in history in saying that if they don't,
there will be no holding back. And those are his words.
Those are his policies.

S7 (06:53):
Ambassador Huckabee also spoke of the evil Hamas committed on
October 7th when it invaded Israel and brutalized, tortured, and
slaughtered pregnant women, babies, the elderly, and the disabled.

S10 (07:07):
Who does that? People who are evil, that's who. This
is a vertical battle between heaven and hell, between good
and evil that the United States of America and President
Trump stands for good and not evil. And that's why
he has made it very clear that Hamas has no

(07:28):
future in Gaza or anywhere else on this Earth.

S7 (07:32):
Some still argue permanent peace in the Middle East can
be achieved through the so-called two state solution carving a
Palestinian state out of Judea and Samaria, the biblical heartland
of Israel.

S8 (07:45):
The idea is folly, nothing more than folly. We just
tried a Palestinian state in Gaza. You saw what that
brought right.

S7 (07:52):
In Gaza, he insisted. Not only must Hamas go, but
the Palestinian Authority can't take over.

S8 (07:59):
Why replace one one regime that is sworn to our
destruction with another regime that is sworn to our destruction?

S7 (08:06):
As for handing Judea and Samaria to the Palestinian Authority,
Huckabee pointed out that God gave the Jews that land long,
long ago.

S10 (08:15):
Israel is a chosen place for a chosen people, for
a chosen purpose. And I say that not because I'm Jewish.
I say it because it's true. And I affirm that
which has been the truth for 3500 years. This is
his land.

S7 (08:35):
And he still guards it.

S10 (08:36):
Because the only explanation for the creation and the survival
and the victory of Israel is that God's hand is
upon this land, and it always will be.

S7 (08:49):
Chris Mitchell, CBN news, Jerusalem.

S1 (08:52):
By the way, if you do not see the hand
of God on the appointing of Mike Huckabee as the U.S.
ambassador to Israel, I can tell you that the governor
and his wife, Janet, moved. They didn't take a trip.
They moved, and he sent out on some pretty compelling
information talking about wanting to get there before Easter. So
they traveled along with their dogs and their dogs, had
no idea how long the flight was going to be.

(09:12):
His goal was to get there before Easter. His first job.
He put a prayer in the wall from the president
of the United States Easter morning. He worshipped at the tomb,
which is empty back after this. Bible literacy is declining
even among Christians. It's time for us to cultivate Bible
reading habits that will transform our faith. That's why I've
chosen the Jesus Book as this month's truth tool. Discover

(09:35):
how to apply Scripture to our everyday lives and to
know its power. As for your copy of the Jesus Book,
when you give a gift of any amount to in
the market, call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go
online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot. Org.
We always love it when Karen Cavell comes to visit.

(09:56):
This is a woman who's challenged our thinking and pushed
us lovingly outside our comfort zone. Okay, truth is, so
often we look at Hollywood as the modern day Sodom
and Gomorrah, right? Is that not true? Absolutely. And we
ask ourselves, can anything good come out of Hollywood? But
then you have to stop and say, okay, but I
need a heaven's perspective on this. So the Creator King
makes many of his children creative. Why? Because they're a

(10:19):
reflection of him. Imago dei. And so the Bible also
says that a good father doesn't frustrate his children. So
why then, would God create creative children only to say,
sit down, you can't use it. So maybe the goal
is not only to create, to bring honor and glory
to him, but to influence and occupy. When they rub
shoulders with other creators who do not necessarily yet have

(10:41):
a biblical worldview. When you think about it, it also
goes to the tenant that God says he's not willing
that any should perish. God doesn't draw a ring around
Hollywood and say, my spirit is everywhere but here. In fact,
he does the antithesis. He sends creative people right in
the midst of that town. Which is why my precious
friend Karen Cavell says, stop looking at it as Sodom
and Gomorrah, but instead look at it as Nineveh, and

(11:03):
I'll get it. A whole lot of us end up
being a Jonah going harrumph, and we sit there as
a peevish prophet on the side of the hill, getting
mad as can be that God would bring revival to Nineveh.
Shouldn't we be praying for that? And so there are
brothers and sisters in front of the camera, behind the camera,
writing scripts, doing sound, doing makeup, writing storyboards. The list
goes on and on and on. And all the while,

(11:24):
they're using the God given creativity with which they've been
gifted to influence and occupy for his name's sake. But
they need our prayers. And that's where the Hollywood Prayer
Network comes in. This is a global movement to pray
for the men and women whom God has called into
the entertainment industry. And in full disclosure, I will tell
you that Karen absolutely changed my worldview on this. Now,
instead of getting mad, I start praying. And I'm so

(11:46):
grateful that there are bi weekly Hollywood call sheets. These
are a call sheet in the industry is when you
have to be on the set that day for filming,
you show up. If you're not in that scene, you
don't have to show up. So it's calling to people
who need to show up. Don't you love that? That
was Karen's brilliant way of saying, you need to show
up and pray for these men and women. So these
bi monthly prayer sheets come out that are absolutely fabulous.

(12:06):
There's praise, there's concerns, there's challenges, there's heads up and
there's announcements of wonderful things that the Hpn is doing
all around Hollywood. Karen, again is the founding director. This
was her idea. The Lord birthed this ministry through her
of the Hollywood Prayer Network. She speaks and teaches around
the country on how people of faith can pray for
the people in the entertainment industry. And she has, as

(12:26):
they say, the chops. This is somebody who knows the industry.
She's co-founder and producer for JK. I'll let you figure
that out. JK productions, an independent TV and music production company.
She has extensive experience in producing TV specials, documentaries, children's programming.
She's a member of the Producers Guild of America. And
Not Just anybody can be that. By the way, a
founding member of premise and a board member of the

(12:49):
Biola University Entertainment Task Force, and she is a graduate
of USC. Guess what? With a degree in producing. So, Karen,
with all of that having been said, how in the
world could the Hollywood Prayer Network not talk about the
National Day of Prayer on the first Thursday in May?
And boy, the enthusiasm for what you're doing on the
National Day of Prayer pours off the page. You don't

(13:09):
sit this one out by any stretch of the imagination.
Tell me what you've got planned.

S11 (13:13):
Oh it's amazing. We have a big, beautiful space at
Hollywood Hollywood Presbyterian Church. We're expecting over 200 people, and
we are going to have personal prayer stations based on tacos.
So first we eat tacos. Everybody who comes gets to
have dinner. Then we break into prayer stations T for Thanksgiving,

(13:35):
A for adoration, C for confession, and O for others.
And we are walking through and praying and seeking God
with worship music going on. We have personal prayer time.
We have prayer leaders getting up on the stage and
leading sections of prayer for different people. It's a very

(13:56):
fun night and we are very excited to do it.

S1 (13:59):
Only a creative person like you would come up with
tacos and tie it into prayer. I think that's absolutely brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant. I just love it. And what's wonderful is
there are all kinds of people that show up, right?
People in the industry, people who just want to come
and pray for and through the Hollywood Prayer Network. But
it's very eclectic. But you have always been front and

(14:20):
center in your ministry on the National Day of Prayer.
It's such an. Well, it's such a perfect hand in
a glove co-mingling of the message message and the mission
of the day.

S11 (14:29):
Well, it's so easy. And honestly, I started this even
before the Hollywood Prayer Network. The Prayer Network is 24
years old. I've been doing these for 30 years because
I thought if we have an actual holiday in our
nation to pray, I better do something about that. So
every year I am excited to have a gathering. And
you're right, it is a it's the most eclectic group

(14:50):
we get all year. It's people from all around the city.
It's people that have heard of the National Day of Prayer,
and they just want to gather with people and pray.
We stay away from anything political, but we do pray
for our nation, for our city, and for the entertainment industry.
And so we cover all bases and it's just a
lot of fun.

S1 (15:11):
Wow. How wonderful. Karen, thank you for that. So talk
to me about a rally that was held recently called
stay in LA. I don't think a lot of people,
at first blush, are going to understand why that's so
crucial to the industry. Talk to me about this.

S11 (15:22):
Well, it was very organically, um, originated by people who
are losing their jobs in LA. Production has left Los Angeles.
It's too expensive. The unions are too strong. We don't
have tax credits and we don't have any tax rebates.
And so production is going to other states that are
tax free. And people living in LA owning homes can't

(15:45):
afford to live here. And so they owe hundreds of
people gathered and said, we've got to get our industry
and our state government to let us stay in LA,
keep production in LA. We have to make a living.
We can't sell our homes and lose all of our
friends and family because we can't get a job here.

(16:05):
We need the work to come back to our city
and our state. And so it was a very moving day.
And we we just want we want the leaders in
Hollywood and in our state government to do something about
keeping production in the state.

S1 (16:21):
Let me linger here, because obviously, being in Washington, this
one piqued my interest greatly. So very often at the
end of a film, you'll see a Georgia Peach and
it'll say, It's the Georgia. I think it's film Commission
or something like that. And the reason they do it
is because, ta da! There's those tax breaks in the
state of Georgia. Now this is going to be interesting
from a legal perspective, because how can you give an
advantage to an industry where other industries would then pop up?

(16:44):
I'll ask the question, you're hearing the music. We'll talk
about this more on the other side. But some other
industry might say, well, why are you giving them due deference?
Why do they get a break if you're trying to
give them a tax incentive to stay there, is there
a way to do it that doesn't discriminate against other
businesses in California? That's the legal question. The philosophical question is,
does California government have a mind to do this? Because

(17:04):
you're right. They have a population bleed, and they also
have an exodus of creative people going to other states
for exactly these tax reasons. So I want to get
more of your take on this when we return. I
also want to talk about the number one show on
Amazon Prime, if you haven't seen it. Oh, are you
missing something back after this with Karen Cavell of the
Hollywood Prayer Network. We're visiting with Karen Cavell. I'm so grateful.

(17:29):
She comes and visits on a regular basis. So we
keep her ministry and these prayer requests right under our
nose on a regular basis. The whole purpose of these
conversations is, first of all, to introduce you to her
wonderful ministry, almost of a quarter of a century old.
I can't believe they've been doing that for that long.
God bless them. And should the Lord tarry, may they
have three more quarter centuries ahead of them. But in

(17:49):
the meantime, I also want you to understand that there
is an active role that we can play. Not only
do you know about this ministry, but this is a
global prayer movement. And instead of picking up a rock
and throwing it, you can pray for real revival, protection
and salvation to come to Hollywood. And that's why this
is so important. So what Karen understands also is the
particular economic challenges of being in the creative industry. It's, um,

(18:11):
it's feast and famine. There's no other way around it.
The consistency of benefits like health insurance are not there.
Karen and I have talked in the past about particularly
stunt people who are horribly underpaid, and you have an accident.
What happens to your medical bills then? It can bankrupt you,
for goodness sakes. So there's a lot of unions and
kind of protection things you have to put in place
for some of these people. So we were just talking
before the break, Karen, about this stay in LA rally,

(18:32):
which is really saying to the state of California, you're
going to have to do something here to keep it
attractive for us to stay here, not to sell our homes,
not to pack up, not to move to a state
like Georgia where we get some tax benefits and it's
ending up to be cheaper to make our film there
than it is in California. So based on that rally,
was there any feedback? How is the press reporting this?
Do you see any movement in the assembly on this?

S11 (18:54):
Well, we actually do. In fact, um, there was a
statement by Newsom that they are going to give more
tax incentives and tax rebates in their next they're going
to vote on it in their next election coming up.
And they said because they recognize that this is literally
we're losing the industry here. And the reason why this

(19:14):
is not competitive with other industries, who I see your
point about them wanting to say, well, why don't you
give us rebates? American entertainment is exported more than any
other countries. It is the capital of the global film, television, internet, um, uh, globally,
it has the highest video games, is the highest exporter

(19:37):
of of anything in entertainment. And it all all the
decisions are made in L.A., LA, so it is by
far the most lucrative of any business in not only
our city, but our state. And yet it's not being
taken care of. So that's what the, the, um, the
problem is and that people are, are really screaming about

(19:59):
to our government. We are living here and we actually
need to leave to work because of you not supporting
this the this huge industry. So that's that's the problem
with it. And the interesting thing is that they are
doing something about it. Now we've whether they'll follow through
or not I don't know. But they sure responded and said, okay, okay,

(20:21):
we're going to have more tax incentives in our next
in our next vote. So we'll see.

S1 (20:27):
Yes. And a lot of big donors, you know, I'm
not going to say it out loud, but I think
most of our listeners can guess where the majority of
them lean in terms of their politics. So, you know,
money doesn't talk, it shouts. But the reality is, if
you really want to keep this industry in your state,
and good governors always want productive industries to stay in
their state, they're going to have to really consider some
ways to be able to offer incentives to keep the

(20:48):
production companies there and not pack up and move to Georgia. Right, right.
So let me.

S11 (20:52):
Talk.

S1 (20:53):
Yes. And we'll thank you for keeping us apprised. And
we're going to watch that one very carefully. Okay. I
cannot stop talking about the House of David. I was
thrilled I had a chance to talk to John Irwin,
actually in Greece filming season two. So I'm not letting
the cat out of the bag. And when I asked John,
I said, John, you only went to the end of
the battle where he engages Goliath. There's like a gazillion
parts to David's story after that. He hasn't even fully

(21:15):
ascended to the throne yet. And what happens when he
has all these family dynamics? Oh, Absalom, Absalom! And so
he talked about wanting eventually to have a bookends where
you go from David, the shepherd boy who was the
runt of the litter, to what happens with Absalom and
all that happens in between. So just the material, the
raw material. And you've taught us the story is everything. Oh,

(21:35):
the arc of the story hasn't been reached yet on
this one.

S11 (21:38):
Yes. Isn't that amazing? And yet it's still compelling. Yes.
In most stories, you need a big arc to really
fulfill the story. But within the within the story of David,
you have about ten arcs, you know?

S1 (21:50):
Yes.

S11 (21:51):
You peak and then you resolve, and then you peak
and then you resolve. And it's a fabulous story and
they do it really well. I'm quite impressed by what
they're doing with this series.

S1 (22:01):
I am too. So let me ask you, for someone
who's in the biz, what do you think it is?
I mean, there's a gazillion choices. It drives me crazy.
You know, you can spend most of your night just
deciding what you're going to watch when you're going through
the Library of Congress, of all the stuff that's there.
But for you to get number one on Prime Video
means there's something so compelling. It's not just believers, it's
also non-believers who are being drawn. What do you think?

(22:22):
Not just from a production value, although certainly that's part
of it because it isn't a gritty basement church film.
It is up there competing in the marketplace. But what's
the compelling factor, do you think that draws people to
watch this?

S11 (22:33):
Well, I think there are three things. Actually, the Christians
are going to watch it. The Jewish people are going
to go watch it. And people who love history, they
say a huge group of people watching this show love history.
This is a historical piece. And so you're drawing in
very large groups of people. And also what I've been
finding is that those of us who do like it
tell our friends who are overwhelmed by all the shows

(22:57):
they have to choose from. And when they hear one
that a friend tells them to watch, they'll go watch it.
So I tell a non-Christian friend, oh, you've got to
check out House of David. It's actually a true story
about a man in the Old Testament there. Oh, at
least it's something I know to watch instead of just
scanning through it and trying to figure out what to pick.
So the word of mouth makes a big difference on

(23:17):
this as well.

S1 (23:18):
Absolutely. And I remember talking to John, what I love
about those that are done, as well as the one
that John has done, is that it makes me watch
it with one hand and the Bible in the other. So,
for example, I had wrongly this perceived notion of Samuel.
I love the name so much. I named one of
our sons Samuel. But you think of him in his
life in the temple, right? But when he cuts off
the head of the Abimelech Abimalek King. I thought, ooh,

(23:41):
is that right? No, no, it wasn't right. He hacks
him to pieces. The Bible says so.

S11 (23:47):
Oh, I know it.

S1 (23:50):
I love the fact that it made me study even more.

S11 (23:55):
The Bible is so R-rated. Oh my goodness. It's just crazy, Janet.

S1 (24:00):
And filled with such excellent history. Karen, that went far
too fast. Thank you friends so much. Friends, sign up
for the Hollywood Prayer Network. I've got a link on
my information page. Become a part of this global prayer
movement and pray for revival and protection back after this.

(24:28):
How do you keep your finger on the pulse of
America while listening to the heartbeat of God's Word? On
in the market, we look for God's perspective on current events,
become a partial partner today, and keep this Christ centered
program on the air. As a benefit, you'll receive exclusive
resources every week prepared just for you. You'll get behind
the scenes Intel from my email to yours. Call 877 Janet, 58,

(24:48):
or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org.

S12 (24:57):
On Wednesday, archaeologists unearthed a 12th cave filled with ancient
storage jars and lids off the Judean cliffside, marking the
first successful excavation of a new cave associated with the
famed Dead Sea Scrolls. In 60 years, researchers had assumed
only 11 caves in the area contained scrolls. But the
new discovery strengthens a long standing belief that looters may
have stolen precious artifacts, evidenced by pickaxe heads found within

(25:20):
the new cave. A collection of nearly 1000 manuscripts written
in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic dating back to fourth century BC.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were first discovered in 1947, and now,
according to director general of the Israel Antiquities Authority, Israel Hazan,
the important discovery of another scroll cave attests to the
fact that a lot of work remains to be done

(25:40):
in the Judean Desert, and finds of huge importance are
still waiting to be discovered.

S1 (25:46):
Oh, I tell you what. Get on your Indiana Jones gear.
We're going to go digging. You know, for the longest
period of time, I bet I'm like a whole bunch
of you who thought, oh, archaeology. How boring. Just a
bunch of dusty rocks. But you know what? Even the
rocks cry out. And if you were at all interested
in the inerrancy of Scripture and the fact that archaeological
finds continue to affirm and affirm and affirm that which

(26:09):
God has set forth, get a little closer to your radio,
because this is one of the most exciting finds in
archaeology in the last several years. I am so excited
to welcome Doctor Craig Evans to the program. He's Director
of Strategic Studies and professor at Houston Baptist University, and
he joins us to talk about this amazing discovery in Qumran.

(26:29):
Doctor Evans, I am so thrilled that you are here.
I don't want to say what we found yet. I
want to do a little background work so that people
can understand what Once Upon a Time was deemed to
be one of the most important archaeological finds of the
20th century, and that is the discovery of these Dead
Sea Scrolls. When you and I go to Israel, we
love to point those caves out to people. We love

(26:50):
to talk about the shepherd boy and how they found
the scrolls. But give our friends, if you'd be so kind,
a kind of Cliff's Notes overview. Prior to this latest
discovery about the Dead Sea Scrolls, what the background was,
how they were found, and their significance.

S13 (27:05):
Happy to do that. Jenna. Good to be with you. Well,
the first cave was found in 1947, and it wasn't
until almost 1948 that scholars actually saw them. In fact,
my own professor under whom I studied for my PhD
was William Brownlee, and he was there with his friend
John Trevor in 1947 48. And they saw the scrolls

(27:26):
that were smuggled out of the first cave, and scholars
became very interested. Little did they know that there would
be ten more caves found from 1947 to 1956. And
that's what makes the discovery of the newest cave. Cave
12 so exciting because as you can, you can add
it up. There's been a 61 year gap between cave

(27:47):
11 and cave 12. That is very exciting. As you
already mentioned, right at the top, there have been almost
a thousand scrolls recovered from these 11 caves initially, and
some we don't have an exact count. Some of your
listeners might wonder why that is, and that's because there
are a lot of fragments. We're still sorting out thousands

(28:08):
of tiny fragments, trying to figure out just exactly how
many scrolls we have. To date. We have 38 of
the 39 books of the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament,
and then about 220 Bible scrolls in all that is
multiple copies of many books like Genesis and Deuteronomy and
Isaiah and the Psalms. But we also have several hundred

(28:29):
other very interesting texts, some of them futuristic, looking ahead
into the future, talking about the Messiah, things that would happen,
great big eschatological battles, things like that, a New Jerusalem,
for example, rule books, calendars, and many other things like that.
Scholars have been studying the scrolls ever since the discovery

(28:49):
in 1948, and it's been going on and on and on.
But there are still more materials coming to light. Now,
here's what's interesting about cave 12. We always suspected there
was a missing cave because we had scrolls turning up.
Nobody knew where they came from. We called them X scrolls,
which I know sounds very exciting and some people would

(29:10):
speak of an X cave. Well, I think we have
found the X cave and so that gets us up
to date. But I'll tell you, there's tons of stuff
to talk about the scrolls. They are so important for
understanding Jesus, the New Testament, the beginning of the church.

S1 (29:25):
Yes, absolutely. Oh, I tell you, this stuff gives me goosebumps.
It really does. Okay, a gazillion questions based on what
you just said. Okay. If we look at the X
that we're talking about now, now that we know that
there is a 12th cave now that these discoveries have
been made. Is there going to be some really aggressive
further exploration in those caves? Because with that gap since
1956 until just recently, there's gold in them there hills.

(29:48):
So I'm just thinking there's got to be some really
aggressive archaeological work going on now.

S13 (29:53):
Oh, I think so. I think this is it's burst
the dam. I know for a fact there are plans
now to investigate more caves, a little bit of back story.
You might remember a 1993 when when it looked like
the West Bank. And that would include the Dead Sea area,
the western shore of the Dead Sea, where Qumran is.
These caves we're talking about when it was looked like

(30:16):
Israel would lose control over them. There was something launched
called Operation Scroll. That was 1993. Ultimately, hundreds of volunteers
participated in this. It was a scouring of those hills,
those cliffs, these canyons, these rocky crevices and so on.

(30:36):
Looking for other caves? Well, of course, if you've ever
been there, and I know you have, if you just
wander around and look around, there's nowhere you can look
without seeing a hole in the ground.

S1 (30:46):
That's exactly right.

S13 (30:48):
Over 300 caves were identified as worth exploring. This is
cave number 53 that Randall Price of Liberty University and
archaeologist decided. You know what? I got to get a permit.
An archaeological excavation permit, and bring a team with me
and do some work. And that's what they did. They
started in late December, finished in January. And he called

(31:11):
me up and gave me the whole story. So I
know what's going on and what's been found. And of course,
we all had to sit on it secretly for about
two weeks. When the official story broke with the announcement
at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. And so this was cave
53 on this 300 plus list. He liked it. He
liked the way it looked. Well, his instincts were were

(31:33):
right on the money. And that's where they found six
broken scroll jars. They found a linen wrapper that used
to contain a scroll. They actually found a piece of
a scroll, a rolled up piece of leather. No writing
on it, but we can do DNA testing and match
it to one of the scrolls, I am sure, and
determine where these things came from. Plus, they actually found

(31:53):
some Neolithic tools in their excavations, so it's a very
exciting find, but I've been told. So I'm going to break, break,
break this news with your audience. There are a couple
of very promising, uh, other cave possibilities near Qumran, so
who knows? We may be talking about this in a

(32:15):
couple months about cave 13. So there are plans for
further excavations in some of these other caves. In fact,
I am told funding has been offered to cover as
many as ten cave exploration and excavations in the months
and years ahead.

S1 (32:33):
Oh my word, Doctor Evans. So exciting. All right, again,
just so many questions. And what was just discovered. And
by the way, I was thrilled to see that Randall
Price was a part of this. How exciting. But now,
finding the shards of pottery. Finding the tools. ET cetera.
The next big discovery is when we finally get it
in the laboratory, and we begin to break down exactly

(32:54):
what is or is not there. And can we tie
it back to what we know are existing parts of Scripture?
Are there any sneak peeks at this point as to
content and what might be there?

S13 (33:05):
Well, there's no question in my mind when you find
scroll jars in a in a cave and a and
a piece of leather and a piece of papyrus that's
ancient paper. Uh, and of course, the leather obviously is
animal hide. Uh, it's mostly the Dead Sea Scrolls are
made from an extinct cow species. We've learned that from

(33:26):
DNA study. So there's no question scrolls were there. Which scrolls?
How many? We're not sure. Cave eight. By the way
of the original 11, it had been looted too, with
only a few small fragments left behind. Unfortunately, sometimes these
looters get into the cave. They find things and they
don't value what you and I value. They're just looking

(33:47):
for stuff they can sell. The jars are too big
and heavy. They just break them. They remove the contents.
They carry off the scrolls and sell them on the
black market. They and try to sell them to antiquities
dealers and people like that. So it's a real shame
they'll destroy what would be really tens of thousands, hundreds
of thousands of dollars of information in order to sell

(34:07):
a scroll for $1,000. And that's what happens. It really
is a sad thing. So right now we can confirm
cave 12 by doing analysis of the clay pottery, the
ceramic jars, and confirm that indeed they were made at
the kiln which is found in the ruins at Qumran.

(34:28):
I don't think there's any doubt of that.

S1 (34:30):
Wow.

S13 (34:30):
And as I already mentioned, I think we could do
a DNA test on the leather scroll and confirm identify
what other scroll and x scroll it actually belongs to.
So there's some steps like that that can be taken.
Now there are speculations already. There was a post just
today where someone is speculating that scrolls were found, but

(34:51):
they're being kept secret. I doubt that very much. I
know the people involved. I know personally several of the diggers.
I know Randall Price, and if I think if a
scrolls really had been found still in that cave, uh,
we would know that. So I doubt very much there's
some kind of conspiracy. That's the last thing we need

(35:13):
is another scrolls conspiracy. We don't need another Dan Brown
Da Vinci Code, do we? So. Yeah. So anyway, that's
that's a good thing in our program right now. Let's
let's set the record straight. No, there's no conspiracy going on.
We want to find things and we want to announce
what we find. We want to do it responsibly and

(35:33):
we don't want to start rumors. So yeah, there are
going to be some more caves looked at, and I'll
bet you dollars to donuts. We will be talking about
scroll finds in the next months or years ahead.

S1 (35:44):
Wow wow wow wow. I hope this piques your interest.
If you've not been interested in archaeology biblical archaeology up
to this point, by the way, there's a whole magazine
that just has that title. I hope that this conversation
piques your interest. 1948 this is when they found the
Dead Sea Scrolls. Remember? You've heard about that a lot.
It was deemed at the time to be the greatest

(36:05):
archaeological find of the 20th century. And now, just recently,
a 12th cave at Qumran and six new scroll jars.
I'm so glad I'm not done with my conversation with
Doctor Craig Evans back after this. This is pretty exciting news,

(36:30):
and I'm so glad that Doctor Craig Evans is here
to talk about it. Doctor Evans is the director of
strategic studies and distinguished professor of Christian origins at Houston
Baptist University. And we're talking about this very recent discovery
of the 12th cave at Qumran and the six new
scroll jars that have been found there. You've often heard
maybe in your Sunday school class, maybe your pastors even

(36:52):
talked about this, about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Well, there's
more exploration, but we haven't had anything from those caves
since 1956. So this is huge in every sense of
the word. This is huge. So, Doctor Evans, my mind
is racing in a million directions. First of all, I'm
talking to you from the nation's capital. We cannot wait
for the opening of the Museum of the Bible. So

(37:12):
it raises an interesting question, which is Israel, as we
both know, is absolutely absolute. It's about antiquities. So a
couple of questions come to mind. A do you think
we can get any of these in the Museum of
the Bible? And B, you talked about people going in
and looting, which has been the theory for years, by
the way, because Israel is so fastidious about the control
of antiquities. Don't you think if somebody tried to sell

(37:34):
anything that had been looted from the caves, that there
would be red alerts that would go off everywhere, and
those would be confiscated before they could really continue further?
In fact, who would want to own a scroll if
you can't put it on display so it doesn't make
sense to buy it off the black market, it seems
to me.

S13 (37:50):
Well, you're right, and people have been arrested in the
last 15, 20 years trying to sell scrolls that were looted.
It is complicated, though, Janet. You know why? The antiquities
laws that are strict that you're referring to are only
about 40 years old. It was in the late 70s
that they were passed. And of course, the first cave

(38:10):
was discovered in 1948, the 11th cave in 1956. I mean,
I know people who have seen scrolls and scroll fragments
in private hands. I knew Kando, the famous collector in Bethlehem,
who was among the very. In fact, I think he
was the very first person to start selling scrolls. He's
the very guy following the Six Day War in 1967 who,

(38:34):
at gunpoint, surrendered the Temple Scroll from cave 11. I mean,
that's quite a story. I mean, you got everything in
the scrolls, you got violence. You know, you got I
don't know if you have murder, but we're working on it.
There's been a lot of stuff that's happened. And so
you can make movies out of this. So what I'm
saying is it's nebulous. So what do you do if

(38:56):
your grandfather is a Bedouin who has in his saddlebags
a scroll that he got in, you know, there was
no such thing as looting in terms of being illegal
in the 1950s and 1960s. And so if he's got
in his saddlebags a scroll that's not illegal. And now

(39:18):
the law is if you have that kind of stuff,
they want you to turn it in and you are
compensated modestly. Well, some of this stuff has been spirited
out of Israel. It's in private collections in different locations,
different cities in Europe. Kando's family actually claims to have
some scrolls in a safe deposit box in Switzerland. So
there you are. So a lot of funny things are

(39:40):
going on. And by the way, it's not just Israel.
I mean Egypt and other countries too. And with all
the violence and ISIS now and the destruction of antiquities,
stuff is floating around. I've seen stuff smuggled out of
the Middle East, so.

S1 (39:54):
It is.

S13 (39:54):
A crazy time right now.

S1 (39:57):
So, like you said, I hope somebody turns this into
a movie because I think it would make Indiana Jones
look pale by comparison. But if you look at who
owns this, which I think is always fascinating. Once upon
a time, if you look at Qumran, people would say, well,
it really belonged to Jordan. Well, Jordan is 85% Palestinian, 15%
the Hashemite minority. So who would have possession? And then

(40:20):
you and I look at the UN passing this resolution
that basically says you don't have any claim to the
Temple Mount. The Jews were never in Jerusalem. And yet
you have scrolls that go back to what it says
in the Torah of the Tanakh. Then you start getting
into who owns the land. So it's a whole lot
more than just a scroll in many respects. These become
deeds to the land, do they not?

S13 (40:40):
Yeah, I completely agree with you. I mean, it's a
major thing. Jeremiah Johnson and I posted an opinion piece
on the Fox News opinion page where we actually make
that connection. We point out, and we're talking about the
cave 12 discovery. And by the way, it was the
most read post on the Fox page of any time.

(41:02):
We blew out of the water. Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, everybody.
And I think that tells us something. What we're talking about,
people find fascinating. And of course, what we point out
is the scrolls are written in what language in Hebrew predominantly,
and also Aramaic, and just a few in Greek. Well,

(41:22):
Hebrew and Aramaic. Those are the languages of the Jewish people.
And what is the date? You mentioned that at the
top of the program, some of the oldest ones go
all the way back to the fourth century. Most of
them are first and second century B.C. this is hundreds
and hundreds of years before Muhammad came along. This is
these are Jewish scrolls found on the West Bank. So

(41:43):
who exactly does own that land and stuff looted from
the temple? Temple Mount? In recent years, when the foundations
of the Al-Aqsa mosque had to be reinforced, truckloads of
debris that archaeologists were not permitted to observe dumped, then
sifted through. And what do we find? We find the

(42:05):
temple tablet that dates to about 800 BC, referring to
the repairs of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, written in Paleo-Hebrew.
So the archaeological evidence for the existence of the Jewish
Temple is overwhelming. Yet I myself just last year, standing
in the Temple Mount in front of the dome of

(42:27):
the Rock, had a person very rudely say that we
should stop lying and stop talking about a Jewish temple.
There never was one there. Well, Janet, how in the
world can anybody talk about peace? How can anybody come
to terms about who gets to live here in peace
and security and so forth? And I'm talking about everybody involved,

(42:48):
the Palestinians as well as the Israelis. When you can't
tell the truth, any kind of lasting peace has to
be based on the truth, what really has happened in
the past. And that doesn't mean the Palestinians have no rights.
That's not what I'm saying. But you can't lie about Israel.
You can't say something preposterous like there never was an

(43:11):
Israelite nation, there never was a Jewish temple. That's baloney.
And there's overwhelming archaeological evidence for it. And of course,
the Dead Sea Scrolls. Talk about the temple. That's one
of the themes in the scrolls. They're looking forward to
a new temple replacing the old one. So the schools
are huge, and I think that's the interesting takeaway. We're

(43:31):
talking about scrolls that are 2000 plus years old and
they are speaking to today's situation. They are as relevant
today as they ever were.

S1 (43:45):
God tells us and tells us and tells us again.
So you can't say, ain't been told. By the way,
when you go to Israel. And boy, I hope you
will go. In fact, I hope you'll go with me
this year. To get your questions answered. One of the
places you want to visit is the shrine of the book.
These are. This is an exhibit of some of the

(44:07):
scrolls that was found at Qumran. I'll tell you what.
Triple goosebumps stuff. Thank you. Thank you, Doctor Evans. So
appreciate your being with us. Check it out. Go to
our website to learn more. We'll see you next time.
Friends on In the Market with Janet Parshall.