July 21, 2025 • 44 mins
There’s a good chance that you, like so many of us, have tried it all: read your Bible more, gone to church more, prayed more, and delved deeper into self-awareness. But you still struggle with discontent, anxiety, avoidance, and doubt. You still feel stuck. No matter where you find yourself emotionally, relationally, or spiritually, Jesus meets you there and helps you move toward a place of peace and rest. Pastors, coaches, and educators, Cyd and Geoff Holsclaw, will join us to draw on the science and spirituality of attachment theory, biblical wisdom, and the language of spiritual formation to show us why Christians tend to get stuck spiritually―and how to get unstuck and move forward.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
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(00:22):
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(00:43):
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(01:45):
the Market with Janet Parshall. For now, please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:52):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:56):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S6 (01:59):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:17):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you so much for choosing to spend the hour
with me. So Jesus makes the proclamation that he came,
that we might have life and have it abundantly. So
wherever you are right now, let me ask you a question.
If I had 30s with you in an elevator, how
would you describe your relationship with the Lord? Would you
say that you feel very deeply acquainted with God, intimately
(02:41):
acquainted with him? After all, the Bible says he knows
the number of hairs on your head. So there's got
to be some superb attachment there, right? Or would you
say that you feel distant, that you know of him,
but you don't know him, that you've tried it, and
no matter how many rituals you've gone through, you just
can't seem to get what Jeremiah called the fire in
your bones. That's what I'm going to talk about this hour.
(03:02):
How you truly can improve your relationship with God. Because
sometimes the reason there's a problem there is. Well, you've
had some problems here with the other folks on planet Earth,
after all. Let the record reflect. Your mailing address is
east of Eden. This is not as good as it gets,
by the way. But I don't know about you. I
want to know as much about God and be as
close to him as I can now. Because after all,
(03:23):
I will be spending eternity with him, and I don't
want it to be a surprise. Our teachers this hour
are going to be Doctor Jeff and Sid Holtzclaw. They
are co authors of Does God Really Like Me? And
co-directors of the Doctor of Ministry in Spiritual Formation and
Relationship Neuroscience. That's a mouthful. We'll tell you all about
it at Western Theological Seminary. They're the co-founders of the
(03:44):
center for embodied Faith and the co-host of the Attaching
to God podcast. They join us today with their brand
new book entitled landscapes of the Soul How the science
and spirituality of attachment can move you into confident faith,
courage and connection. Welcome, Sid and Jeff. It's a wonder
that we're all together finally able to pull this together.
(04:05):
I'm thrilled. Thank you for being here.
S7 (04:07):
Thank you. We're so glad to be here.
S8 (04:09):
We're delighted. Thank you.
S1 (04:10):
Oh thank you. Jeff, let me start with you. Because
for people listening all across the country right now, this
might be their very first exposure to embodied faith. So
tell me about that ministry.
S9 (04:20):
Yeah, it's a new ministry that we've been kind of
pursuing over the last, uh, probably about three years. And
it kind of came out of this, uh, sense that
for so many of us, our faith, our discipleship models,
they've kind of been, uh, created for disembodied minds. Uh,
not that we're against thinking and right doctrine and thoughts
(04:41):
and all of that stuff, which we are, but we
really feel like the needs to get into our bodies.
The word became flesh and dwelt among us. That is
super important. And so how God has made our bodies good,
and how he's made us to connect to one another
and to to the Lord is, is in and through
our bodies. And so we've been doing our work for
(05:01):
several years, just trying to kind of proclaim that message
and integrate our discipleship, our spiritual formation, our understanding of Scripture,
to really kind of understand the body's place in it all.
S1 (05:11):
You mean the physical body, right?
S9 (05:13):
Well, not just the physical body, although that certainly is
very important, but also kind of we could think of, of,
of our social bodies, our spiritual bodies. So we're kind
of our bodies are enmeshed in all of the bodies
and the people and the relationships in and around us,
and they affect us, right? If somebody just kind of
gives you a frown that affects your body, so their
(05:34):
body is communicating something to your body, your mind, your brain,
your soul, your spirit. Right. All these things are so connected. Uh,
so it's all of our relationships that we're kind of
thinking as part of this thing called our embodied faith.
S1 (05:45):
Mhm. Let me linger here if you don't mind, because again,
this is a first exposure including for me for this ministry.
So when you talk about body and I'm glad that
you just expanded it to really talk about body meaning
other things, but it does include your physical body. Do
you draw a distinction, or is it all inclusive to
talk about the body as well as the mind and
the soul?
S9 (06:07):
Well, we really think of them as integrated aspects of
everything in all of who we are, are part of
our bodies, our spirits, our mind, and our souls. And
so our bodies. God has made us such that our bodies,
our nervous systems, are really connected to what we think.
But then also it goes the other direction, what we
think is connected to our bodies and how we feel.
(06:28):
And so our emotions are connected to our thoughts, but
our thoughts are also connected to our emotions. And then
certainly the physical sensations and everything we experience in the
world are all fundamentally connected in each and every way.
So when the thing that was really interesting to me is,
especially in the Old Testament, when you're reading the Psalms,
like most of their emotion words, uh, really kind of
(06:48):
connect connects to body parts like your liver or your
throat and your heart. Right? So it's a very embodied
kind of reality and spirituality that we get, especially from
the Old Testament that gets brought forward. You know, when
we get to John 114 where the word became flesh
and dwelt among us. And so it's it's really that
whole integrated aspect of our existence that we find to
be essential to our work.
S1 (07:08):
Hmm. Wow. So, Sid, I know you never disagree with
your husband because none of us ever disagree with our husbands.
So what did he say that you would like to
add to?
S7 (07:19):
Well, I think what I would like to add is that,
you know, it's impossible to separate our experience or our
life or our relationships from the reality that we live
within a body. So, you know, when we talk about embodiment,
it's as simple as, you know, God chose to put
us in flesh. And so we are not disembodied minds
(07:40):
or disembodied souls. And so our lived experience is lived
through the context of a body, and our bodies are
affected by what kind of weather. We're short, whether we're tall,
whether we feel like we are beautiful and pleasing to
the eye, or whether we are, you know, not as
pleased with our own appearance. And so even just the
way that we perceive our world around us, the way
(08:02):
that we perceive ourselves, and even the way that we
perceive God interacting with us, all of those perceptions and
all of that experience comes from living in flesh and
blood and bone. And then the ways that we interact
with one another are also part of that embodiment. And
then if we think even beyond that, you know, I mean,
when Jesus told us to remember what he has done
(08:23):
for us, he gave us a meal, you know, the
Lord's Supper that involves our body, that involves tasting and
eating and chewing and drinking as a way of remembering
his flesh poured out, you know, his flesh and his blood,
and also the way that we are also become members
of one body, as we are Christ's body here on
(08:44):
this earth. And so bodies are really important, and we
want to make sure that bodies don't get left out
of our discipleship.
S1 (08:51):
Mm. We're going to take a break. We have the
privilege of spending the hour with Sid and Jeff Holsclaw. Again,
they join us today with their brand new book, landscapes
of the Soul How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment
can move you into confident faith, courage, and connection. So
in that subtitle, the word I'm going to pull out
and where we'll start our conversation after the break is
(09:12):
the word attachment. What does it mean? How does it
work in terms of our relationship with God? How does
it work in terms of our relationship with other people?
This is going to be an interesting conversation. I hope
you're going to stick around. I've got lots of links
on the information page all at, you guessed it, in
the market with Janet parshall.org. We'll take a break. We'll
be right back after this. In today's world, people are
(09:50):
more confused than ever about truth and meaning. That's why
I've chosen Why Jesus by Ray comfort is this month's
truth tool. Discover why Jesus is the only path to
everlasting life, and learn how to confidently share that hope
with others. As for your copy of Why Jesus, when
you give a gift of any amount in the market,
call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go
(10:10):
to in the market with Janet Parshall. Landscapes of the
soul how the science and spirituality of attachment can move
you into confident faith, courage and connection. The authors are
our guest this hour. Doctor Jeff and Sid Holsclaw. And
let me, if I can, Jeff, start with you because
I said I was going to pull out the word attachment. Now,
(10:30):
this is a word you and Sid, I'm sure, use
every day in the work that you've been called to do.
But for a whole lot of people, attachment is something
that's stapled together. When you go to the auto repair shop.
Most people don't understand what that means in terms of
human dynamics. So let's just start out with a common
definition of the word attachment. What does it mean in
terms of interpersonal relationships.
S9 (10:50):
Yeah. So attachment refers to the bond the effective bond
or the emotional bond that develops between a child and
their caretaker or caretakers and that, uh, you can have
what is called a secure attachment if that relationship is
one where the children feel safe and soothed and seen
when they're in distress. But also it's one where, uh,
(11:13):
there's a lot of joy, there's a joyful connection such that, uh,
the child then can kind of like grow and excitement
as well as have confidence to go out and explore
the world. And so it's really this the language sometimes is,
is that the parents can be the safe haven when
the child is in distress, but then it could be
the secure base to get launched out into the world,
to go and explore new things and discover things.
S1 (11:35):
Um, so taking that definition, Syd, what in the world
does attachment have to do with my relationship with God?
S7 (11:41):
Yes. Well, God has designed all of us to grow
up with a secure attachment, which would mean that we
all have a sense that God is always glad to
be with us. He delights in us, he takes great
joy in us, and then he gives us equal capacity
for both intimacy and independence. So that's like what Jeff
was talking about, where that safe haven is that intimacy,
(12:02):
the knowledge that I am accepted and loved and seen
and safe by my caregivers, and that extends to God.
God models his relationship with us through what he designed
for the family, and so that intimacy is there. But
then there's also that independence where God gives us great
purpose and invites us to share his mission to bring
(12:23):
life to the fullest, to everyone in the whole world,
and invites us to participate in that which requires a
great amount of independence, so that intimacy and independence. We
don't mean independence in the sense of trying to be
completely apart from God, but at the independence in the
sense that if you think of like with a toddler,
a toddler, as they get braver and more mobile and
(12:43):
they begin exploring their world more, they go further and
further from mom and dad, knowing that they can always
come back to mom and dad, and they're always loved
as they go. And they're going sort of with the
identity of belonging to the family. And so in that
same way, we're all designed to have this kind of
attachment with God, where we never have to wonder how
God feels about us. We never have to wonder if
(13:05):
God is happy to be with us, or if he's
upset with us. We know that we're always accepted, we're safe,
we're soothed, we're seen, and we're also have this relationship
with God where he is close to us and near
to us, but he also gives us great work to
do and sends us out, just like Jesus sent his
disciples out two by two.
S1 (13:25):
Mm. So, Geoff, um, continuing in this vein of talking
about attachment, let me ask you, as the male in
this marriage, I don't know why it is not mom
so much, but very often it's dads. And I'd love
to know if someone's ever done a longitudinal study or
a doctoral dissertation on this topic. But why is it
particularly for believers, we tend to superimpose on our image
(13:49):
of God our relationship with our earthly father. Why is that?
S9 (13:54):
That that is a great question. So what? To answer
that I have to kind of step back and talk about, uh,
Sid was talking about secure what is called secure attachment.
And so but we also have to talk what's called
insecure attachment, which is where, you know, because of sin,
because of the fall, because of inattentive or maybe sometimes
(14:14):
abusive caretaking parenting that, that kind of those two capacities
of growing and intimacy to other people, but also toward God,
but and then also growing in independence, they become lopsided
or altogether corrupted or deformed in some fashion. And so
you get these kind of different things where we can
talk about the landscapes, uh, in a second. But when
you have these insecure attachments, then you kind of start
(14:37):
viewing the world through these sinful lenses, and it affects
how you feel about yourself and about others and about God.
And so if we've had, um, a father, um, and
you asked about the science. So for the attachment bond,
the mom is primarily that that safe haven where you
go to in distress, especially for the first about a
(15:00):
year or year and a half of life. But then
studies have shown that the dad really takes over, um,
and helps out significantly in that attachment bond, especially with
the growing excitement as well as the independence. This is
where sometimes the stereotype of of the dads having rough play, um,
or maybe doing things that are risky that the moms
don't want, right? That's super good for children because it
(15:21):
helps them expand their their boundaries, their emotional boundaries, their
social boundaries, as well as kind of their ability to
explore the world. Right. So that kind of going out
into the world, um, is really connected to your father.
And so I think that there is something about that,
that when that going out into the world with both
intimacy and independence starts getting corrupted, then we start, you know,
(15:41):
having these different wounds, you can call them attachment wounds,
you can call them kind of different people call them
all sorts of things. But then we start projecting that
on God, and we start assuming that God is a
certain way that isn't true about who God is. But
we start interacting with God in those ways because of
the wounds that we've had with our father. And I
think that the reason why, you know, and I love
(16:04):
praying to our Heavenly Father because we understand salvation as
really a welcoming back into a new family. So it's
really a jumpstarting of a new attachment relationship. And so
that's what the father is offering to us. That's why
Jesus came to gather other brothers and sisters into the
family of God. And the spirit has been poured out
as the love of the father into our hearts. And
so it's really that joining that new family, which is
(16:26):
why the fatherhood of God is so important.
S1 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah. And I also think to your point, it's
with specificity that in his word he does use the
word father, and he does refer to us as our children.
I don't think any of that is by happenstance. You know,
the Bible doesn't contain the Word of God. It is
the Word of God. And I think going to this
idea of this new family, it really is very much
what it is when we are absent from the body
(16:48):
and present with the Lord. It is a completely new
dynamic and a new family dynamic at that. But I
think there is with intentionality. God uses the word father
over and over and over again, based on the science
that man has slowly but surely discovered, which is this
whole idea of attachment. So when we come back, you
write in the book about different attachment strategies, and I
(17:10):
love the word pictures that you use, particularly because they're
all outdoors, they're all nature. And I love that, by
the way. And it goes right to the title of
the book, The Landscapes of the soul. So we're going
to continue our conversation with Doctor Jeff and Sid Holtzclaw. Holtzclaw.
And this is if you're interested in more, we've got
a link to the book on our information page. Easy
Peasy in the market with Janet A partial.org. Underneath the
(17:31):
synopsis of each hour for every day there's a red box.
Clicking on takes you to the information page. Once you
get there, you're going to see the longer bios for
both Jeff and Sid, and click on through to get
a copy of the book so you can read more.
We're going to be back after this. Jeff and Sid
(17:52):
Holtzclaw are with us. They're the authors of landscape of
the soul how the science and spirituality of attachment can
move you into confident faith, courage, and connection. So, Jeff,
you talk about four different attachment strategies, all of them
having to do with nature, which I think is very interesting.
What are the four? Give me some explanation if you would, please.
S9 (18:13):
Well, first of all, I just want to say why
we use the words attachment strategies. And that is because
they're not attachment styles. A lot of times we feel
like these are just part of our personality, but we
really wanted to cast a vision of hope, the hope
for change that we can be, you know, moving toward
a place of health. And so we're just adapting ourselves
to certain environments. And so we come up with these strategies.
(18:35):
So the different uh, there's three different. Following the science,
there's three different insecure attachment strategies. So one when you.
Kind of maximize the pursuit of intimacy with people in
your relationships. And you start. Uh, inadvertently minimizing your, uh,
capacity for independence. That is what we call the. Jungle.
(18:55):
The jungle, uh, landscape where we're focused on, uh, relationships,
where there's really highs and highs. There's kind of really
low lows where, um, it's kind of those people who
have that social and emotional radar where they know how
everybody's doing, uh, in a particular kind of room or
a situation or in the family. Uh, and, and that
(19:16):
environment is really supposed to kind of suggest, um, not
being able to see really far. And if you think of,
of these landscapes, this is why we kind of use
the language is that you adapt yourself to a landscape.
If you're living for your whole life in a jungle,
in an environment, then you adapt yourself to that particular environment.
(19:36):
And so the jungle is one. The desert is kind
of the polar opposite. So that is where instead of
pursuing intimacy and relationships, you're actually maximizing your independence. And
you're protecting yourself against relationships. You're protecting yourself against kind
of your own emotions in a sense. And so it's
an emotional desert and a kind of a disembodied. And
(19:59):
so if we go back to that idea of being embodied,
it's a lot more disembodied. These the desert is really
kind of the arid place of the mind. Um, and
then if you kind of are growing up in an
abusive or highly neglectful situation, then that is what is
called a disorganized attachment, or what we call the war zone,
where you're at war with others because they're kind of
(20:19):
at war with you. The person that's supposed to help
you is also the one that maybe is harming you
and that you're afraid of, Uh. And you're conflicted about
how to pursue intimacy or independence. Uh, and so then
you kind of take that external war zone of the
relationships around you, and you internalize that. Uh, and so
sometimes you just act in ways you don't even understand yourself.
(20:40):
So those would be the three insecure landscapes. And again,
each one of them, you're adapting. And we explained this
quite a bit in the book, but you kind of
adopt certain survival skills that you emphasize that are pretty
different than people in other landscapes. But the fourth landscape, uh,
is that of secure attachment, which we call the pasture.
And of course, we're thinking of Psalm 23, that the
(21:02):
Lord is our shepherd and leading us into the good pasture.
And that's the place where he is growing the proper
and appropriate integration of intimacy as well as independence, where
he's leading us into that place of of being known
and understood by God, but also given responsibility, um, and
an opportunity to kind of participate with God's kingdom.
S1 (21:22):
Mm. So if I can Now in the book, when
you take a look at these four different scenarios, let
me start with the jungle one, if I can, because
this is tied to anxiety. In fact, you say the
jungle god results in an anxious faith. Sid, let me
ask you. So what does God look like if you're
residing in the jungle in terms of your attachment? What
(21:42):
does God look like from a jungle perspective?
S7 (21:46):
Well, from the jungle. The jungle is sort of the
result of having sort of an unpredictable ability to connect
with your caregiver. And so what ends up the way
that God ends up looking from the jungle is that
you're never quite sure if God wants to connect with you.
Maybe God's too busy, maybe he is not that concerned,
(22:07):
or maybe he is really concerned about you, and you
really are feeling connected with God. But then you're afraid
of losing that connection by disappointing him, or by not
doing the things that you feel like you need to
do in order to maintain that connection. And so the
anxiety is around. Is God available to me today or
is he not available to me today? And is God close?
(22:28):
But he feels far away. I'm not sure I can
find God. Did I upset him? Did I do something wrong?
Did I not worship enough? Was I not reading my
Bible enough? Or was I not doing the right things
in the right order? And so that turns out to
sort of this anxiety that causes you to try to
sort of manage that relationship, um, of feeling like there
(22:48):
is a particular way that you want to try to
get things done, to be able to meet God, and
just that sort of emotional sense of being driven by
how I feel like God is present to me. When
I feel the connection, when I don't feel the connection,
then I think that he has left me or abandoned
me or is not available. And that's where that anxiety comes,
(23:11):
is sort of that hypervigilance around wanting to always be
connected and wanting to be feeling the the nearness of God.
S1 (23:21):
For each of these Sid is there are there has
science shown us? Let me put it that way. Causal
factors why you would find yourself in the jungle as
opposed to the desert.
S7 (23:32):
Certainly it all has to do with the way that
your early childhood was was happening. So with your early caregivers.
So especially between the ages of zero and four, um,
your nervous system is not fully formed when you're born.
And so your relationships are being formed and your perceptions
of the world. So if you think of it as
little kids, we're not even thinking of it this way. Consciously,
(23:54):
of course, but little kids are almost like, uh, scientists.
And they're running experiments and sort of seeing what happens
when I call out for help. Does someone respond to me? Um,
and so that running those experiments, the conclusions that we
make cause us to have these perceptions.
S3 (24:11):
Mm.
S1 (24:12):
Let me take a break. And when we come back,
I want to talk about some of the strategies. We
talked about that before. Jeff, what are some strategies if
you find yourself as as Sid and Jeff are describing that,
you think, yeah, that that pretty much describes me. Okay,
let's go back to something that Jeff said before. There
are strategies here. What are some of those strategies? We're
going to talk about that. Take a look, by the way,
at the other two kinds of attachment as well, the
(24:33):
desert and the war zone before we land in green pastures. That's,
after all, what this is all about. We're talking with
Jeff and Sid Holtzclaw back after this. If what you
hear on in the market with Janet Parshall encourages you,
enlightens you, engages you, and equips you, I want to
(24:56):
ask you to become a partial partner today. This program
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So please call today 877 Janet 58 or go online
to in the market with Janet Parshall. We are visiting
(25:19):
with Doctor Jeff and Sid Holsclaw. They are co authors
of Does God Really Like Me? Co-Directors of the Doctor
of Ministry and Spiritual Formation and Relationship Neuroscience at Western
Theological Seminary. They're also the co-founders of the center for
embodied Faith and co-host of the Attaching to God podcast,
a conversation that's very important to what we're talking about
(25:40):
regarding their new book. It's called landscapes of the Soul
How the Science and Spirituality of attachment can move you
into confident faith, courage, and connection. So, Jeff, you used
the word strategies before. When you write about this jungle faith.
And there are strategies. So this high performance on alert,
this anxiety driven kind of, uh, personality as a result
(26:02):
of how you were raised, what are some strategies. Because again,
I want my dynamic between my fellow human beings to
be good, but I hunger to have a solid, secure
attachment with God. So what are some strategies if I'm
viewing God from the jungle?
S9 (26:17):
Yeah. So as as children, we were saying that you
were running experiments. You're gathering data about how your particular
world works. And all that data then becomes this environment
so we can say it becomes the jungle that's kind
of living inside of us, and it creates certain strategies
or survival skills is what we call them. So. So
the four that we could say is, is one is
(26:38):
you develop a lot of competency in social, emotional, uh,
like reading people, understanding where people are. You can call
it empathy, but then you also have a high sense
that that relationships are more important than rules. You were
raised in a place maybe where there weren't a lot
of rules that were followed. Maybe they were stated, but
they weren't followed a lot of inconsistent kind of care
(27:00):
and love. And so you found out that relationships are
more important than rules. And because of that, when you become, um,
when you enter into into distress, you have the priority
of going to your people. Uh, and so you usually
don't feel like you are competent yourself to solve your
own problems, but you have to go to other people.
And because of that, a lot of your relationships you
(27:20):
take on more blame for a situation than is probably
due to yourself. And that all is because of those
different survival strategies and so that that can happen, um,
in our relationship with God, where we feel like, oh,
if I'm not feeling, uh, people in the jungle like
that idea of, uh, what I feel is real is
very kind of true for them. And so if they
(27:42):
feel like God's not near, then of course they're going
to blame themselves. They're going to amp up the activity.
They're going to try to, uh, woo God or something
like that. They'll go to their friends or other people
to see if they can kind of jumpstart a relationship
with God. Um, and because relationships are more important than rules,
maybe those kind of basic kind of obediences, uh, or
kind of verses in Scripture that just tell us what
(28:04):
to do or how to seek God. We won't follow
those rules, but we're kind of scrambling around with a
hypervigilant kind of understanding. Um, and so those are some
of the strategies that kind of, uh, end up happening
when you're in the jungle and they're very different than
the ones that you would find in the desert.
S1 (28:20):
So, Sid, let me turn to you then. How do
you improve your relationship with God if you're in the jungle?
S7 (28:26):
Well, you want to do so. You want to try
to shore up the tools that you're missing. So these, uh,
when we talk about the pasture, we talk about the
pasture is sort of an integration of the tools and
strategies that both the jungle and the desert are using.
The problem is, is that when you're in the jungle,
you're sort of treating everything with the same strategy. It's
sort of that proverbial statement that when you're holding a hammer,
(28:48):
everything is a nail. And so what we're doing is,
since the jungle has a prioritization of intimacy at the
expense of independence, one of the primary strategies to grow
and to move toward the pasture, if you're living in
a jungle, is to work at increasing your independence and
increase your sort of logical, linear tools because you have
(29:09):
an overreliance on your social and emotional sort of how
you feel. And so to counterbalance that or to strengthen
where you're weak, you want to be spending time working
at how do I read Scripture from more of a
theological standpoint? How do I actually work through the doctrines
that the church has held dear? How do I, uh,
(29:30):
work at being able to try to take some agency
on my own before I immediately go to other people
and depend on others? Um, how do I learn to
be obedient, to really look at what God has asked?
What he shows us is the way to flourishing life.
And what are some ways that I can take some
steps that actually trying to live according to the good
(29:51):
rules that God has given to us that lead toward flourishing.
And so that would be sort of trying to, to
to shift your way of relating to God from being
more driven by emotion and trying to use your mind
a little more. And that sounds really challenging and difficult
for someone who's living in the jungle. But that's exactly
(30:11):
the pathway that is needed to bring us closer to
the integration of intimacy and independence that we find in
the pasture.
S1 (30:18):
Now, we haven't looked at the desert or the war
zone yet, and time permitting will do just that. But
I would imagine the question I'm going to ask applies
to all three of those areas said, which is okay,
it's about my attachment to God. But how much of
this is important to say? And I understand the rigidity
here of subscribing to rules as opposed to a relationship.
But what how much of a role does the desert,
(30:41):
the war zone and the jungle play in our not
understanding who God is? Because the misperception, I grant you,
might be predicated on a lived experience, but the nature
of God doesn't change, and he tells us who he
is in his word. So how much of the rectification,
the repair, the correct attachment that gets us to the
pasture is predicated on our misunderstanding the character of God?
S7 (31:06):
Well, that's pretty much the core of it. So the
way that we need to repair our attachment is to
really be able to go back to, um, when I
work with people individually, when I'm doing coaching or spiritual direction, um,
I really try to help people. Just imagine if God
really is as good as Jesus is, and if God
(31:28):
really is. If Jesus really is the fullest representation of
who God is, then I need to look at everything
that I see in Scripture about God through the lens
of Jesus. And Jesus repairs all of the ruptures in
our lives. He is the one who is the one
who can meet people right where they are, in the
middle of their sin. You know, meeting the adulterous woman,
(31:50):
meeting the woman at the well, meeting, you know, Zacchaeus, um,
meeting everyone exactly where they are with compassion and with curiosity.
And it's Jesus models what it is to not only
meet people where they are, but then he's always challenging,
offering questions, inviting people to take the next step of
(32:11):
how do you step into obedience? And Jesus keeps saying,
I've come to reveal my father. Everything I do is
is what my father has given me to do. The
words I give to you are my father's words. I'm
here to do my father will, father's will I do
what I see my father doing? And so we learn
the goodness of the father through the person of Jesus Christ.
(32:31):
And because of the different perceptions that we might have
because of our insecure attachments, those things might be, um,
distorted or sort of twisted. Um, but we need to
get back to what does Jesus actually reveal to us
about the father? And can I start running new experiments? Uh,
we like to think of faith as it's like, almost
(32:53):
like running new experiments with Jesus so that we can
come to new conclusions about who God is based on
the person of Jesus.
S1 (33:02):
Um, you know, I'm so thankful you talked about taking
that next step when we encounter Jesus. Because I think
too often in the sloppy, I'm not even going to
use the word theology because I don't think it rises
to that level. But the sloppy teaching that's often out
there is that God always meets us where we're at.
I love that finish the sentence. He doesn't leave us
where we're at. And I think particularly when we're slogging
(33:24):
through the mess of attachment and listen again, I pointed
out our mailing address is east of Eden. Okay. All
of sin. There's brokenness. There's heartbreak. There's bad parenting. There's abuse. There's, um,
I'll love you if I'm never around. So I'm not
going to connect. I mean, all of the things that
happen in interpersonal dynamics, the rectifier for all of that
(33:45):
is Jesus. And he doesn't say, wow, I'm right where
you're at, and I'm going to leave you there. I mean,
I have a doctor that recognizes what my problem is.
That's great. I came to the doctor to get better,
not just stay where I'm at.
S7 (33:57):
Exactly right. And that's where we like to say Jesus
is the one who is healing all of the ruptures
caused by our human relationships. And so all of those
places where we have come up with these perceptions that
are distorted. Jesus is the writer or the shifter of
all of those places. So, yes, like you said, he
meets us where we are, but then he moves us
(34:18):
closer to the father. He wants to bring us into relationship,
into that security of the pasture where we truly lack nothing.
S1 (34:27):
Mhm. Amen. So, Jeff, we've just we've spent a little
time in the jungle. We've talked about the anxious faith.
Now I want to talk about the avoidant faith. That's
part of the desert experience. Talk to me about that.
S9 (34:38):
Yeah. So in the desert that um, that environment comes
from often a dismissive, uh, caregivers who maybe, um, will
take care of your physical needs. But, you know, whenever
you start a crying or whenever you're upset, they really
just kind of ignored you. They had you play by yourself.
They sent you away until with all those big emotions.
And so you internalize that that my big emotions are
(35:00):
not important. Uh, and you started becoming disconnected from other
people when you were in distress. You. And so you
learned several survival strategies or, uh, survival skills, as we
call them. So one is to prioritize kind of the logical,
linear way that the world works, cause and effect. I
just need to break the code and then I can
figure out how to live in this environment. I'm going
(35:20):
to ignore the emotions, my people's emotions, other people's emotions.
We're just going to pretend none of those exist. You know,
do I know how to get good grades? Do I
know how to succeed on the soccer field? Like I
just need to break the code and then I'm accepted. Um, but.
And so then that leads to the second skill, which
is that you prioritize rules over relationships. The rules that
are written, uh, become, you know, those are the most
(35:41):
sacred things. And even if you run over the relationships, um,
also because you've kind of felt abandoned in your relationships,
you start having the skill of, I can solve it
on my own. Uh, and so sometimes these people are
really helpful in a crisis, right? Because they're going to
swoop in and they're going to, like, figure out how
to solve a problem. And then the last thing is that, um,
(36:02):
because you prioritize rules, the last survival skill is often
that you assume that other people are the problem, that
you blame other people, which is just the exact opposite
as the jungle.
S1 (36:13):
Um, so we're going to linger a little bit more
in the desert. I do want to touch on the
war zone and finally get us to the pasture, because
that's what this is all about. The book is called
landscapes of the Soul How the Science and Spirituality of
attachment can move you into confident faith, courage, and connection.
Our guests are the author of the book Doctor Jeff
and Sid Holtzclaw back after this. Landscapes of the soul
(36:56):
how the science and spirituality of attachment can move you
into confident faith, courage and connection. I want to go
right back to the desert since we already left the jungle.
And you talked about. It's interesting, Jeff, because in the
desert the move is more toward independence. In the jungle,
the move is more toward intimacy. So independence is great,
but I feel sorry for the person who doesn't understand
(37:18):
the intimacy that we can have with the living God.
So what are how do we take the way we
look at life, the way we connect with other human beings?
How do we turn that around and move it so
that we can get that richer, deeper faith in God?
S9 (37:30):
Yeah. So it's the desert could be thought of that
person that is kind of stuck in their head and
they haven't, like, moved things into their heart where they
have like a sense of, well, I'm committed to these doctrines.
I'm committed to God's Word. But when they're in distress,
when there's a problem in their life, they just are
trying to solve it themselves. They don't go to God
in prayer, they don't call out to God. And so
really working on kind of becoming more embodied, uh, in
(37:54):
their physical being, but then also their social kind of body,
their relationships becoming better at checking in and understanding their
own emotions. But then also, maybe when it comes to
your scriptural study, moving out of just reading, you know,
I love Paul's letters, right? But they're doctrinal heavy. They're
very thinking. Right. So moving into the poetry, reading the
Psalms more and trying to grapple with those deep emotions,
those complex emotions that are being expressed, where people are
(38:15):
calling out to God with their disappointments and their hopes
and their desires, and so can they in a sense, really, uh,
understand that God delights in them. So not just as
a doctrine, but kind of as a feeling. So as
the prodigal son or as the older brother is coming
back to the father. Um, and the father had been
looking for the prodigal son, had been rejoicing, throws a party,
(38:38):
throws a ring, and, uh, gives them a robe. Uh,
and so that kind of delight, kind of feeling that in,
in our bodies, uh, in, in our emotions, that God
in Christ is just wants to be with us. And
so that is kind of the work that someone in
the desert needs to do to start moving toward the
integration of the of the pasture.
S1 (38:59):
In reference to time, let me move quickly to the
war zone, and I want to land in the pasture,
which is where you want us to go in the
book landscapes of the soul. So, Sid, talk to me
about the war zone. This one breaks my heart the
most because this is where there's real abuse, there's real hurt, there's, um,
there's trauma. And isn't it interesting how when there's trauma
with a capital T, not only when we talked earlier
(39:21):
with you, Jeff, about how we superimpose on God our
relationship with our earthly father, boy, trauma can just either
make or break somebody when it comes to their relationship
with God. Why is that?
S7 (39:31):
Yeah, it absolutely can. And the reason is, is because
if you grow up in an abusive environment, first of all,
I am so sorry. It's God never intended it to
be that way. And it's so painful. And the reason
that it's so difficult to navigate those kinds of spaces
as a child is because there isn't really a predictable,
consistent strategy that works. Um, and so, you know, if
(39:55):
we talk about like, jungle prioritizes intimacy and the desert
prioritizes independence in the war zone, you're sort of trying
to rapidly do both. And so in your early childhood,
you know, you're trying to move, you're trying to be
close to the people who are supposed to be taking
care of you. But then when you get too close,
sometimes it's scary or it's hurtful and you don't get
(40:16):
your needs met. And so it's terrifying to be close.
And you're also trying to be independent, maybe trying to
be active and exploring your world, but then you end
up getting in trouble or being punished for mistakes because
you're not met with compassion, because people, it's like people
expect you to be an adult and you're not yet.
And so those kinds of things just cause this internal
(40:38):
conflict and this sort of vacillation back and forth between
trying to live in the strategies of the jungle and
trying to live in the strategies of the desert and
rapidly switching back and forth and not always finding the
right strategies for the right moments. And but Jesus has
good news for people in the war zone, too, right? That,
like all of these strategies, are strategies and they can
(40:59):
all be changed. And so in the same way that
Jesus meets people in the jungle, in the desert, he
also meets people in the war zone.
S1 (41:06):
Yeah, exactly. Give a word of encouragement to people who
are there, who they're they're they want the intimacy. They
don't trust it. You use the word chaotic over and
over again in describing this. Part of this attachment in
the war zone and chaotic is the last thing you want.
Because Jesus said his own words, I came to give
you peace that passes all understanding, not as the world
gives so chaos and almost totally understandable, but much desired
(41:30):
peace are polar opposites. So how do you help get
someone to that place where the chaos dies down and
the intimacy is not only relished, but experienced?
S7 (41:40):
Yeah, well, I've actually come a little bit from the
war zone myself. So this, this is, you know, very
close to my heart. So the biggest piece peace is
to know that you make sense. You're not crazy. You're
not somehow broken beyond repair. It makes sense that you
find yourself in the place that you find yourself, and
you've done the best you can to survive and to
(42:02):
get where you are. And so just know that you
make sense. You make more sense than you think you do.
And then second to that, that you know, you can
have compassion for yourself because you make sense. And Jesus
has incredible compassion for you. And if you can allow
Jesus to give you the compassion and have that compassion
(42:24):
for yourself, then when you do find yourself sort of
in that place of chaos, just even for myself, you know,
taking a deep breath and hand over my heart and
just saying it makes sense that I find myself where
I am. But Jesus can find me right here, too.
And he can show me the way home. Right. Show
me the new way. And I'm in a new family.
(42:44):
And I'm not in the same family that I was before,
and I've done a lot of repair work with my family,
but those things are still there. And so doing that
work and just remembering that Jesus is the one who
leads the way, and he's never going to give up
on you. Never.
S1 (43:01):
Yes. Amen and amen. Jeff, take us to the pasture.
You call this the confident faith? I bet everybody within
the sound of our voice listening all across the country
wants just exactly that. But everybody was raised by imperfect parents.
So how do we ever get to the pasture?
S9 (43:15):
Yeah, well, the confident faith it comes from, it starts.
It starts with that. That faith that Jesus is the
good shepherd, that he's leading us into pastures and helping
us to lie down. And so we have to take
little steps of faith where we believe that we can
be close to God, be intimate with God and others,
and that he has given us roles of independence and
(43:36):
opportunities to kind of flourish. And so it really starts
with this little seed of faith that that that a
new way is possible for us, and then it moves
from there.
S1 (43:45):
Amen. What a note to end on. And there's so
much more we could talk about, which means there's so
much more in the book. Let me give you the
title again, friends. It's called landscapes of the Soul How
the Science and Spirituality of attachment can move you into
confident faith, courage, and connection. You know, whether you find
yourself in the jungle or the desert or a war zone,
(44:06):
you know what's wonderful? God knows all of that. And
he cares. And he will never leave you or forsake you.
And how precious that his consistency can create that confident faith.
Check it out. The books on my website again. Landscapes
of the soul. Thank you Jeff. Thank you so much
for being with us. And thank you for listening to
In the Market with Janet Parshall. We certainly appreciate it
(44:26):
always to be able to spend time with you. Have
a great rest of your day. We'll see you next time.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that encourages edifies, equips, enlightens,
and gently but consistently pushes you out there into the
marketplace of ideas. But before you start to listen and
before you go to the marketplace, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. And it is a
perfect fit for both the marketplace and getting out there.
It's Ray Comfort's book. Why? Jesus? If you listen to
(00:22):
the broadcast with any regularity, you know we love Ray.
He is bold, unashamed of the gospel. And yet in
such a winsome way, he delivers a truth narrative to
the man in the street, so to speak. He's written
the book Why Jesus? To Teach You How to Walk Through,
by examples and through real conversations he's had on how
to share the gospel in exactly the same way. Listen,
(00:43):
we're called to go and tell. It's not an opt in,
opt out clause. That's where we're supposed to go. And
in truth, how can we keep this good news to ourselves?
So I want you to have Why Jesus as this
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(01:03):
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(01:25):
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(01:45):
the Market with Janet Parshall. For now, please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:52):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:56):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S6 (01:59):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:17):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you so much for choosing to spend the hour
with me. So Jesus makes the proclamation that he came,
that we might have life and have it abundantly. So
wherever you are right now, let me ask you a question.
If I had 30s with you in an elevator, how
would you describe your relationship with the Lord? Would you
say that you feel very deeply acquainted with God, intimately
(02:41):
acquainted with him? After all, the Bible says he knows
the number of hairs on your head. So there's got
to be some superb attachment there, right? Or would you
say that you feel distant, that you know of him,
but you don't know him, that you've tried it, and
no matter how many rituals you've gone through, you just
can't seem to get what Jeremiah called the fire in
your bones. That's what I'm going to talk about this hour.
(03:02):
How you truly can improve your relationship with God. Because
sometimes the reason there's a problem there is. Well, you've
had some problems here with the other folks on planet Earth,
after all. Let the record reflect. Your mailing address is
east of Eden. This is not as good as it gets,
by the way. But I don't know about you. I
want to know as much about God and be as
close to him as I can now. Because after all,
(03:23):
I will be spending eternity with him, and I don't
want it to be a surprise. Our teachers this hour
are going to be Doctor Jeff and Sid Holtzclaw. They
are co authors of Does God Really Like Me? And
co-directors of the Doctor of Ministry in Spiritual Formation and
Relationship Neuroscience. That's a mouthful. We'll tell you all about
it at Western Theological Seminary. They're the co-founders of the
(03:44):
center for embodied Faith and the co-host of the Attaching
to God podcast. They join us today with their brand
new book entitled landscapes of the Soul How the science
and spirituality of attachment can move you into confident faith,
courage and connection. Welcome, Sid and Jeff. It's a wonder
that we're all together finally able to pull this together.
(04:05):
I'm thrilled. Thank you for being here.
S7 (04:07):
Thank you. We're so glad to be here.
S8 (04:09):
We're delighted. Thank you.
S1 (04:10):
Oh thank you. Jeff, let me start with you. Because
for people listening all across the country right now, this
might be their very first exposure to embodied faith. So
tell me about that ministry.
S9 (04:20):
Yeah, it's a new ministry that we've been kind of
pursuing over the last, uh, probably about three years. And
it kind of came out of this, uh, sense that
for so many of us, our faith, our discipleship models,
they've kind of been, uh, created for disembodied minds. Uh,
not that we're against thinking and right doctrine and thoughts
(04:41):
and all of that stuff, which we are, but we
really feel like the needs to get into our bodies.
The word became flesh and dwelt among us. That is
super important. And so how God has made our bodies good,
and how he's made us to connect to one another
and to to the Lord is, is in and through
our bodies. And so we've been doing our work for
(05:01):
several years, just trying to kind of proclaim that message
and integrate our discipleship, our spiritual formation, our understanding of Scripture,
to really kind of understand the body's place in it all.
S1 (05:11):
You mean the physical body, right?
S9 (05:13):
Well, not just the physical body, although that certainly is
very important, but also kind of we could think of, of,
of our social bodies, our spiritual bodies. So we're kind
of our bodies are enmeshed in all of the bodies
and the people and the relationships in and around us,
and they affect us, right? If somebody just kind of
gives you a frown that affects your body, so their
(05:34):
body is communicating something to your body, your mind, your brain,
your soul, your spirit. Right. All these things are so connected. Uh,
so it's all of our relationships that we're kind of
thinking as part of this thing called our embodied faith.
S1 (05:45):
Mhm. Let me linger here if you don't mind, because again,
this is a first exposure including for me for this ministry.
So when you talk about body and I'm glad that
you just expanded it to really talk about body meaning
other things, but it does include your physical body. Do
you draw a distinction, or is it all inclusive to
talk about the body as well as the mind and
the soul?
S9 (06:07):
Well, we really think of them as integrated aspects of
everything in all of who we are, are part of
our bodies, our spirits, our mind, and our souls. And
so our bodies. God has made us such that our bodies,
our nervous systems, are really connected to what we think.
But then also it goes the other direction, what we
think is connected to our bodies and how we feel.
(06:28):
And so our emotions are connected to our thoughts, but
our thoughts are also connected to our emotions. And then
certainly the physical sensations and everything we experience in the
world are all fundamentally connected in each and every way.
So when the thing that was really interesting to me is,
especially in the Old Testament, when you're reading the Psalms,
like most of their emotion words, uh, really kind of
(06:48):
connect connects to body parts like your liver or your
throat and your heart. Right? So it's a very embodied
kind of reality and spirituality that we get, especially from
the Old Testament that gets brought forward. You know, when
we get to John 114 where the word became flesh
and dwelt among us. And so it's it's really that
whole integrated aspect of our existence that we find to
be essential to our work.
S1 (07:08):
Hmm. Wow. So, Sid, I know you never disagree with
your husband because none of us ever disagree with our husbands.
So what did he say that you would like to
add to?
S7 (07:19):
Well, I think what I would like to add is that,
you know, it's impossible to separate our experience or our
life or our relationships from the reality that we live
within a body. So, you know, when we talk about embodiment,
it's as simple as, you know, God chose to put
us in flesh. And so we are not disembodied minds
(07:40):
or disembodied souls. And so our lived experience is lived
through the context of a body, and our bodies are
affected by what kind of weather. We're short, whether we're tall,
whether we feel like we are beautiful and pleasing to
the eye, or whether we are, you know, not as
pleased with our own appearance. And so even just the
way that we perceive our world around us, the way
(08:02):
that we perceive ourselves, and even the way that we
perceive God interacting with us, all of those perceptions and
all of that experience comes from living in flesh and
blood and bone. And then the ways that we interact
with one another are also part of that embodiment. And
then if we think even beyond that, you know, I mean,
when Jesus told us to remember what he has done
(08:23):
for us, he gave us a meal, you know, the
Lord's Supper that involves our body, that involves tasting and
eating and chewing and drinking as a way of remembering
his flesh poured out, you know, his flesh and his blood,
and also the way that we are also become members
of one body, as we are Christ's body here on
(08:44):
this earth. And so bodies are really important, and we
want to make sure that bodies don't get left out
of our discipleship.
S1 (08:51):
Mm. We're going to take a break. We have the
privilege of spending the hour with Sid and Jeff Holsclaw. Again,
they join us today with their brand new book, landscapes
of the Soul How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment
can move you into confident faith, courage, and connection. So
in that subtitle, the word I'm going to pull out
and where we'll start our conversation after the break is
(09:12):
the word attachment. What does it mean? How does it
work in terms of our relationship with God? How does
it work in terms of our relationship with other people?
This is going to be an interesting conversation. I hope
you're going to stick around. I've got lots of links
on the information page all at, you guessed it, in
the market with Janet parshall.org. We'll take a break. We'll
be right back after this. In today's world, people are
(09:50):
more confused than ever about truth and meaning. That's why
I've chosen Why Jesus by Ray comfort is this month's
truth tool. Discover why Jesus is the only path to
everlasting life, and learn how to confidently share that hope
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call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go
(10:10):
to in the market with Janet Parshall. Landscapes of the
soul how the science and spirituality of attachment can move
you into confident faith, courage and connection. The authors are
our guest this hour. Doctor Jeff and Sid Holsclaw. And
let me, if I can, Jeff, start with you because
I said I was going to pull out the word attachment. Now,
(10:30):
this is a word you and Sid, I'm sure, use
every day in the work that you've been called to do.
But for a whole lot of people, attachment is something
that's stapled together. When you go to the auto repair shop.
Most people don't understand what that means in terms of
human dynamics. So let's just start out with a common
definition of the word attachment. What does it mean in
terms of interpersonal relationships.
S9 (10:50):
Yeah. So attachment refers to the bond the effective bond
or the emotional bond that develops between a child and
their caretaker or caretakers and that, uh, you can have
what is called a secure attachment if that relationship is
one where the children feel safe and soothed and seen
when they're in distress. But also it's one where, uh,
(11:13):
there's a lot of joy, there's a joyful connection such that, uh,
the child then can kind of like grow and excitement
as well as have confidence to go out and explore
the world. And so it's really this the language sometimes is,
is that the parents can be the safe haven when
the child is in distress, but then it could be
the secure base to get launched out into the world,
to go and explore new things and discover things.
S1 (11:35):
Um, so taking that definition, Syd, what in the world
does attachment have to do with my relationship with God?
S7 (11:41):
Yes. Well, God has designed all of us to grow
up with a secure attachment, which would mean that we
all have a sense that God is always glad to
be with us. He delights in us, he takes great
joy in us, and then he gives us equal capacity
for both intimacy and independence. So that's like what Jeff
was talking about, where that safe haven is that intimacy,
(12:02):
the knowledge that I am accepted and loved and seen
and safe by my caregivers, and that extends to God.
God models his relationship with us through what he designed
for the family, and so that intimacy is there. But
then there's also that independence where God gives us great
purpose and invites us to share his mission to bring
(12:23):
life to the fullest, to everyone in the whole world,
and invites us to participate in that which requires a
great amount of independence, so that intimacy and independence. We
don't mean independence in the sense of trying to be
completely apart from God, but at the independence in the
sense that if you think of like with a toddler,
a toddler, as they get braver and more mobile and
(12:43):
they begin exploring their world more, they go further and
further from mom and dad, knowing that they can always
come back to mom and dad, and they're always loved
as they go. And they're going sort of with the
identity of belonging to the family. And so in that
same way, we're all designed to have this kind of
attachment with God, where we never have to wonder how
God feels about us. We never have to wonder if
(13:05):
God is happy to be with us, or if he's
upset with us. We know that we're always accepted, we're safe,
we're soothed, we're seen, and we're also have this relationship
with God where he is close to us and near
to us, but he also gives us great work to
do and sends us out, just like Jesus sent his
disciples out two by two.
S1 (13:25):
Mm. So, Geoff, um, continuing in this vein of talking
about attachment, let me ask you, as the male in
this marriage, I don't know why it is not mom
so much, but very often it's dads. And I'd love
to know if someone's ever done a longitudinal study or
a doctoral dissertation on this topic. But why is it
particularly for believers, we tend to superimpose on our image
(13:49):
of God our relationship with our earthly father. Why is that?
S9 (13:54):
That that is a great question. So what? To answer
that I have to kind of step back and talk about, uh,
Sid was talking about secure what is called secure attachment.
And so but we also have to talk what's called
insecure attachment, which is where, you know, because of sin,
because of the fall, because of inattentive or maybe sometimes
(14:14):
abusive caretaking parenting that, that kind of those two capacities
of growing and intimacy to other people, but also toward God,
but and then also growing in independence, they become lopsided
or altogether corrupted or deformed in some fashion. And so
you get these kind of different things where we can
talk about the landscapes, uh, in a second. But when
you have these insecure attachments, then you kind of start
(14:37):
viewing the world through these sinful lenses, and it affects
how you feel about yourself and about others and about God.
And so if we've had, um, a father, um, and
you asked about the science. So for the attachment bond,
the mom is primarily that that safe haven where you
go to in distress, especially for the first about a
(15:00):
year or year and a half of life. But then
studies have shown that the dad really takes over, um,
and helps out significantly in that attachment bond, especially with
the growing excitement as well as the independence. This is
where sometimes the stereotype of of the dads having rough play, um,
or maybe doing things that are risky that the moms
don't want, right? That's super good for children because it
(15:21):
helps them expand their their boundaries, their emotional boundaries, their
social boundaries, as well as kind of their ability to
explore the world. Right. So that kind of going out
into the world, um, is really connected to your father.
And so I think that there is something about that,
that when that going out into the world with both
intimacy and independence starts getting corrupted, then we start, you know,
(15:41):
having these different wounds, you can call them attachment wounds,
you can call them kind of different people call them
all sorts of things. But then we start projecting that
on God, and we start assuming that God is a
certain way that isn't true about who God is. But
we start interacting with God in those ways because of
the wounds that we've had with our father. And I
think that the reason why, you know, and I love
(16:04):
praying to our Heavenly Father because we understand salvation as
really a welcoming back into a new family. So it's
really a jumpstarting of a new attachment relationship. And so
that's what the father is offering to us. That's why
Jesus came to gather other brothers and sisters into the
family of God. And the spirit has been poured out
as the love of the father into our hearts. And
so it's really that joining that new family, which is
(16:26):
why the fatherhood of God is so important.
S1 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah. And I also think to your point, it's
with specificity that in his word he does use the
word father, and he does refer to us as our children.
I don't think any of that is by happenstance. You know,
the Bible doesn't contain the Word of God. It is
the Word of God. And I think going to this
idea of this new family, it really is very much
what it is when we are absent from the body
(16:48):
and present with the Lord. It is a completely new
dynamic and a new family dynamic at that. But I
think there is with intentionality. God uses the word father
over and over and over again, based on the science
that man has slowly but surely discovered, which is this
whole idea of attachment. So when we come back, you
write in the book about different attachment strategies, and I
(17:10):
love the word pictures that you use, particularly because they're
all outdoors, they're all nature. And I love that, by
the way. And it goes right to the title of
the book, The Landscapes of the soul. So we're going
to continue our conversation with Doctor Jeff and Sid Holtzclaw. Holtzclaw.
And this is if you're interested in more, we've got
a link to the book on our information page. Easy
Peasy in the market with Janet A partial.org. Underneath the
(17:31):
synopsis of each hour for every day there's a red box.
Clicking on takes you to the information page. Once you
get there, you're going to see the longer bios for
both Jeff and Sid, and click on through to get
a copy of the book so you can read more.
We're going to be back after this. Jeff and Sid
(17:52):
Holtzclaw are with us. They're the authors of landscape of
the soul how the science and spirituality of attachment can
move you into confident faith, courage, and connection. So, Jeff,
you talk about four different attachment strategies, all of them
having to do with nature, which I think is very interesting.
What are the four? Give me some explanation if you would, please.
S9 (18:13):
Well, first of all, I just want to say why
we use the words attachment strategies. And that is because
they're not attachment styles. A lot of times we feel
like these are just part of our personality, but we
really wanted to cast a vision of hope, the hope
for change that we can be, you know, moving toward
a place of health. And so we're just adapting ourselves
to certain environments. And so we come up with these strategies.
(18:35):
So the different uh, there's three different. Following the science,
there's three different insecure attachment strategies. So one when you.
Kind of maximize the pursuit of intimacy with people in
your relationships. And you start. Uh, inadvertently minimizing your, uh,
capacity for independence. That is what we call the. Jungle.
(18:55):
The jungle, uh, landscape where we're focused on, uh, relationships,
where there's really highs and highs. There's kind of really
low lows where, um, it's kind of those people who
have that social and emotional radar where they know how
everybody's doing, uh, in a particular kind of room or
a situation or in the family. Uh, and, and that
(19:16):
environment is really supposed to kind of suggest, um, not
being able to see really far. And if you think of,
of these landscapes, this is why we kind of use
the language is that you adapt yourself to a landscape.
If you're living for your whole life in a jungle,
in an environment, then you adapt yourself to that particular environment.
(19:36):
And so the jungle is one. The desert is kind
of the polar opposite. So that is where instead of
pursuing intimacy and relationships, you're actually maximizing your independence. And
you're protecting yourself against relationships. You're protecting yourself against kind
of your own emotions in a sense. And so it's
an emotional desert and a kind of a disembodied. And
(19:59):
so if we go back to that idea of being embodied,
it's a lot more disembodied. These the desert is really
kind of the arid place of the mind. Um, and
then if you kind of are growing up in an
abusive or highly neglectful situation, then that is what is
called a disorganized attachment, or what we call the war zone,
where you're at war with others because they're kind of
(20:19):
at war with you. The person that's supposed to help
you is also the one that maybe is harming you
and that you're afraid of, Uh. And you're conflicted about
how to pursue intimacy or independence. Uh, and so then
you kind of take that external war zone of the
relationships around you, and you internalize that. Uh, and so
sometimes you just act in ways you don't even understand yourself.
(20:40):
So those would be the three insecure landscapes. And again,
each one of them, you're adapting. And we explained this
quite a bit in the book, but you kind of
adopt certain survival skills that you emphasize that are pretty
different than people in other landscapes. But the fourth landscape, uh,
is that of secure attachment, which we call the pasture.
And of course, we're thinking of Psalm 23, that the
(21:02):
Lord is our shepherd and leading us into the good pasture.
And that's the place where he is growing the proper
and appropriate integration of intimacy as well as independence, where
he's leading us into that place of of being known
and understood by God, but also given responsibility, um, and
an opportunity to kind of participate with God's kingdom.
S1 (21:22):
Mm. So if I can Now in the book, when
you take a look at these four different scenarios, let
me start with the jungle one, if I can, because
this is tied to anxiety. In fact, you say the
jungle god results in an anxious faith. Sid, let me
ask you. So what does God look like if you're
residing in the jungle in terms of your attachment? What
(21:42):
does God look like from a jungle perspective?
S7 (21:46):
Well, from the jungle. The jungle is sort of the
result of having sort of an unpredictable ability to connect
with your caregiver. And so what ends up the way
that God ends up looking from the jungle is that
you're never quite sure if God wants to connect with you.
Maybe God's too busy, maybe he is not that concerned,
(22:07):
or maybe he is really concerned about you, and you
really are feeling connected with God. But then you're afraid
of losing that connection by disappointing him, or by not
doing the things that you feel like you need to
do in order to maintain that connection. And so the
anxiety is around. Is God available to me today or
is he not available to me today? And is God close?
(22:28):
But he feels far away. I'm not sure I can
find God. Did I upset him? Did I do something wrong?
Did I not worship enough? Was I not reading my
Bible enough? Or was I not doing the right things
in the right order? And so that turns out to
sort of this anxiety that causes you to try to
sort of manage that relationship, um, of feeling like there
(22:48):
is a particular way that you want to try to
get things done, to be able to meet God, and
just that sort of emotional sense of being driven by
how I feel like God is present to me. When
I feel the connection, when I don't feel the connection,
then I think that he has left me or abandoned
me or is not available. And that's where that anxiety comes,
(23:11):
is sort of that hypervigilance around wanting to always be
connected and wanting to be feeling the the nearness of God.
S1 (23:21):
For each of these Sid is there are there has
science shown us? Let me put it that way. Causal
factors why you would find yourself in the jungle as
opposed to the desert.
S7 (23:32):
Certainly it all has to do with the way that
your early childhood was was happening. So with your early caregivers.
So especially between the ages of zero and four, um,
your nervous system is not fully formed when you're born.
And so your relationships are being formed and your perceptions
of the world. So if you think of it as
little kids, we're not even thinking of it this way. Consciously,
(23:54):
of course, but little kids are almost like, uh, scientists.
And they're running experiments and sort of seeing what happens
when I call out for help. Does someone respond to me? Um,
and so that running those experiments, the conclusions that we
make cause us to have these perceptions.
S3 (24:11):
Mm.
S1 (24:12):
Let me take a break. And when we come back,
I want to talk about some of the strategies. We
talked about that before. Jeff, what are some strategies if
you find yourself as as Sid and Jeff are describing that,
you think, yeah, that that pretty much describes me. Okay,
let's go back to something that Jeff said before. There
are strategies here. What are some of those strategies? We're
going to talk about that. Take a look, by the way,
at the other two kinds of attachment as well, the
(24:33):
desert and the war zone before we land in green pastures. That's,
after all, what this is all about. We're talking with
Jeff and Sid Holtzclaw back after this. If what you
hear on in the market with Janet Parshall encourages you,
enlightens you, engages you, and equips you, I want to
(24:56):
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So please call today 877 Janet 58 or go online
to in the market with Janet Parshall. We are visiting
(25:19):
with Doctor Jeff and Sid Holsclaw. They are co authors
of Does God Really Like Me? Co-Directors of the Doctor
of Ministry and Spiritual Formation and Relationship Neuroscience at Western
Theological Seminary. They're also the co-founders of the center for
embodied Faith and co-host of the Attaching to God podcast,
a conversation that's very important to what we're talking about
(25:40):
regarding their new book. It's called landscapes of the Soul
How the Science and Spirituality of attachment can move you
into confident faith, courage, and connection. So, Jeff, you used
the word strategies before. When you write about this jungle faith.
And there are strategies. So this high performance on alert,
this anxiety driven kind of, uh, personality as a result
(26:02):
of how you were raised, what are some strategies. Because again,
I want my dynamic between my fellow human beings to
be good, but I hunger to have a solid, secure
attachment with God. So what are some strategies if I'm
viewing God from the jungle?
S9 (26:17):
Yeah. So as as children, we were saying that you
were running experiments. You're gathering data about how your particular
world works. And all that data then becomes this environment
so we can say it becomes the jungle that's kind
of living inside of us, and it creates certain strategies
or survival skills is what we call them. So. So
the four that we could say is, is one is
(26:38):
you develop a lot of competency in social, emotional, uh,
like reading people, understanding where people are. You can call
it empathy, but then you also have a high sense
that that relationships are more important than rules. You were
raised in a place maybe where there weren't a lot
of rules that were followed. Maybe they were stated, but
they weren't followed a lot of inconsistent kind of care
(27:00):
and love. And so you found out that relationships are
more important than rules. And because of that, when you become, um,
when you enter into into distress, you have the priority
of going to your people. Uh, and so you usually
don't feel like you are competent yourself to solve your
own problems, but you have to go to other people.
And because of that, a lot of your relationships you
(27:20):
take on more blame for a situation than is probably
due to yourself. And that all is because of those
different survival strategies and so that that can happen, um,
in our relationship with God, where we feel like, oh,
if I'm not feeling, uh, people in the jungle like
that idea of, uh, what I feel is real is
very kind of true for them. And so if they
(27:42):
feel like God's not near, then of course they're going
to blame themselves. They're going to amp up the activity.
They're going to try to, uh, woo God or something
like that. They'll go to their friends or other people
to see if they can kind of jumpstart a relationship
with God. Um, and because relationships are more important than rules,
maybe those kind of basic kind of obediences, uh, or
kind of verses in Scripture that just tell us what
(28:04):
to do or how to seek God. We won't follow
those rules, but we're kind of scrambling around with a
hypervigilant kind of understanding. Um, and so those are some
of the strategies that kind of, uh, end up happening
when you're in the jungle and they're very different than
the ones that you would find in the desert.
S1 (28:20):
So, Sid, let me turn to you then. How do
you improve your relationship with God if you're in the jungle?
S7 (28:26):
Well, you want to do so. You want to try
to shore up the tools that you're missing. So these, uh,
when we talk about the pasture, we talk about the
pasture is sort of an integration of the tools and
strategies that both the jungle and the desert are using.
The problem is, is that when you're in the jungle,
you're sort of treating everything with the same strategy. It's
sort of that proverbial statement that when you're holding a hammer,
(28:48):
everything is a nail. And so what we're doing is,
since the jungle has a prioritization of intimacy at the
expense of independence, one of the primary strategies to grow
and to move toward the pasture, if you're living in
a jungle, is to work at increasing your independence and
increase your sort of logical, linear tools because you have
(29:09):
an overreliance on your social and emotional sort of how
you feel. And so to counterbalance that or to strengthen
where you're weak, you want to be spending time working
at how do I read Scripture from more of a
theological standpoint? How do I actually work through the doctrines
that the church has held dear? How do I, uh,
(29:30):
work at being able to try to take some agency
on my own before I immediately go to other people
and depend on others? Um, how do I learn to
be obedient, to really look at what God has asked?
What he shows us is the way to flourishing life.
And what are some ways that I can take some
steps that actually trying to live according to the good
(29:51):
rules that God has given to us that lead toward flourishing.
And so that would be sort of trying to, to
to shift your way of relating to God from being
more driven by emotion and trying to use your mind
a little more. And that sounds really challenging and difficult
for someone who's living in the jungle. But that's exactly
(30:11):
the pathway that is needed to bring us closer to
the integration of intimacy and independence that we find in
the pasture.
S1 (30:18):
Now, we haven't looked at the desert or the war
zone yet, and time permitting will do just that. But
I would imagine the question I'm going to ask applies
to all three of those areas said, which is okay,
it's about my attachment to God. But how much of
this is important to say? And I understand the rigidity
here of subscribing to rules as opposed to a relationship.
But what how much of a role does the desert,
(30:41):
the war zone and the jungle play in our not
understanding who God is? Because the misperception, I grant you,
might be predicated on a lived experience, but the nature
of God doesn't change, and he tells us who he
is in his word. So how much of the rectification,
the repair, the correct attachment that gets us to the
pasture is predicated on our misunderstanding the character of God?
S7 (31:06):
Well, that's pretty much the core of it. So the
way that we need to repair our attachment is to
really be able to go back to, um, when I
work with people individually, when I'm doing coaching or spiritual direction, um,
I really try to help people. Just imagine if God
really is as good as Jesus is, and if God
(31:28):
really is. If Jesus really is the fullest representation of
who God is, then I need to look at everything
that I see in Scripture about God through the lens
of Jesus. And Jesus repairs all of the ruptures in
our lives. He is the one who is the one
who can meet people right where they are, in the
middle of their sin. You know, meeting the adulterous woman,
(31:50):
meeting the woman at the well, meeting, you know, Zacchaeus, um,
meeting everyone exactly where they are with compassion and with curiosity.
And it's Jesus models what it is to not only
meet people where they are, but then he's always challenging,
offering questions, inviting people to take the next step of
(32:11):
how do you step into obedience? And Jesus keeps saying,
I've come to reveal my father. Everything I do is
is what my father has given me to do. The
words I give to you are my father's words. I'm
here to do my father will, father's will I do
what I see my father doing? And so we learn
the goodness of the father through the person of Jesus Christ.
(32:31):
And because of the different perceptions that we might have
because of our insecure attachments, those things might be, um,
distorted or sort of twisted. Um, but we need to
get back to what does Jesus actually reveal to us
about the father? And can I start running new experiments? Uh,
we like to think of faith as it's like, almost
(32:53):
like running new experiments with Jesus so that we can
come to new conclusions about who God is based on
the person of Jesus.
S1 (33:02):
Um, you know, I'm so thankful you talked about taking
that next step when we encounter Jesus. Because I think
too often in the sloppy, I'm not even going to
use the word theology because I don't think it rises
to that level. But the sloppy teaching that's often out
there is that God always meets us where we're at.
I love that finish the sentence. He doesn't leave us
where we're at. And I think particularly when we're slogging
(33:24):
through the mess of attachment and listen again, I pointed
out our mailing address is east of Eden. Okay. All
of sin. There's brokenness. There's heartbreak. There's bad parenting. There's abuse. There's, um,
I'll love you if I'm never around. So I'm not
going to connect. I mean, all of the things that
happen in interpersonal dynamics, the rectifier for all of that
(33:45):
is Jesus. And he doesn't say, wow, I'm right where
you're at, and I'm going to leave you there. I mean,
I have a doctor that recognizes what my problem is.
That's great. I came to the doctor to get better,
not just stay where I'm at.
S7 (33:57):
Exactly right. And that's where we like to say Jesus
is the one who is healing all of the ruptures
caused by our human relationships. And so all of those
places where we have come up with these perceptions that
are distorted. Jesus is the writer or the shifter of
all of those places. So, yes, like you said, he
meets us where we are, but then he moves us
(34:18):
closer to the father. He wants to bring us into relationship,
into that security of the pasture where we truly lack nothing.
S1 (34:27):
Mhm. Amen. So, Jeff, we've just we've spent a little
time in the jungle. We've talked about the anxious faith.
Now I want to talk about the avoidant faith. That's
part of the desert experience. Talk to me about that.
S9 (34:38):
Yeah. So in the desert that um, that environment comes
from often a dismissive, uh, caregivers who maybe, um, will
take care of your physical needs. But, you know, whenever
you start a crying or whenever you're upset, they really
just kind of ignored you. They had you play by yourself.
They sent you away until with all those big emotions.
And so you internalize that that my big emotions are
(35:00):
not important. Uh, and you started becoming disconnected from other
people when you were in distress. You. And so you
learned several survival strategies or, uh, survival skills, as we
call them. So one is to prioritize kind of the logical,
linear way that the world works, cause and effect. I
just need to break the code and then I can
figure out how to live in this environment. I'm going
(35:20):
to ignore the emotions, my people's emotions, other people's emotions.
We're just going to pretend none of those exist. You know,
do I know how to get good grades? Do I
know how to succeed on the soccer field? Like I
just need to break the code and then I'm accepted. Um, but.
And so then that leads to the second skill, which
is that you prioritize rules over relationships. The rules that
are written, uh, become, you know, those are the most
(35:41):
sacred things. And even if you run over the relationships, um,
also because you've kind of felt abandoned in your relationships,
you start having the skill of, I can solve it
on my own. Uh, and so sometimes these people are
really helpful in a crisis, right? Because they're going to
swoop in and they're going to, like, figure out how
to solve a problem. And then the last thing is that, um,
(36:02):
because you prioritize rules, the last survival skill is often
that you assume that other people are the problem, that
you blame other people, which is just the exact opposite
as the jungle.
S1 (36:13):
Um, so we're going to linger a little bit more
in the desert. I do want to touch on the
war zone and finally get us to the pasture, because
that's what this is all about. The book is called
landscapes of the Soul How the Science and Spirituality of
attachment can move you into confident faith, courage, and connection.
Our guests are the author of the book Doctor Jeff
and Sid Holtzclaw back after this. Landscapes of the soul
(36:56):
how the science and spirituality of attachment can move you
into confident faith, courage and connection. I want to go
right back to the desert since we already left the jungle.
And you talked about. It's interesting, Jeff, because in the
desert the move is more toward independence. In the jungle,
the move is more toward intimacy. So independence is great,
but I feel sorry for the person who doesn't understand
(37:18):
the intimacy that we can have with the living God.
So what are how do we take the way we
look at life, the way we connect with other human beings?
How do we turn that around and move it so
that we can get that richer, deeper faith in God?
S9 (37:30):
Yeah. So it's the desert could be thought of that
person that is kind of stuck in their head and
they haven't, like, moved things into their heart where they
have like a sense of, well, I'm committed to these doctrines.
I'm committed to God's Word. But when they're in distress,
when there's a problem in their life, they just are
trying to solve it themselves. They don't go to God
in prayer, they don't call out to God. And so
really working on kind of becoming more embodied, uh, in
(37:54):
their physical being, but then also their social kind of body,
their relationships becoming better at checking in and understanding their
own emotions. But then also, maybe when it comes to
your scriptural study, moving out of just reading, you know,
I love Paul's letters, right? But they're doctrinal heavy. They're
very thinking. Right. So moving into the poetry, reading the
Psalms more and trying to grapple with those deep emotions,
those complex emotions that are being expressed, where people are
(38:15):
calling out to God with their disappointments and their hopes
and their desires, and so can they in a sense, really, uh,
understand that God delights in them. So not just as
a doctrine, but kind of as a feeling. So as
the prodigal son or as the older brother is coming
back to the father. Um, and the father had been
looking for the prodigal son, had been rejoicing, throws a party,
(38:38):
throws a ring, and, uh, gives them a robe. Uh,
and so that kind of delight, kind of feeling that in,
in our bodies, uh, in, in our emotions, that God
in Christ is just wants to be with us. And
so that is kind of the work that someone in
the desert needs to do to start moving toward the
integration of the of the pasture.
S1 (38:59):
In reference to time, let me move quickly to the
war zone, and I want to land in the pasture,
which is where you want us to go in the
book landscapes of the soul. So, Sid, talk to me
about the war zone. This one breaks my heart the
most because this is where there's real abuse, there's real hurt, there's, um,
there's trauma. And isn't it interesting how when there's trauma
with a capital T, not only when we talked earlier
(39:21):
with you, Jeff, about how we superimpose on God our
relationship with our earthly father, boy, trauma can just either
make or break somebody when it comes to their relationship
with God. Why is that?
S7 (39:31):
Yeah, it absolutely can. And the reason is, is because
if you grow up in an abusive environment, first of all,
I am so sorry. It's God never intended it to
be that way. And it's so painful. And the reason
that it's so difficult to navigate those kinds of spaces
as a child is because there isn't really a predictable,
consistent strategy that works. Um, and so, you know, if
(39:55):
we talk about like, jungle prioritizes intimacy and the desert
prioritizes independence in the war zone, you're sort of trying
to rapidly do both. And so in your early childhood,
you know, you're trying to move, you're trying to be
close to the people who are supposed to be taking
care of you. But then when you get too close,
sometimes it's scary or it's hurtful and you don't get
(40:16):
your needs met. And so it's terrifying to be close.
And you're also trying to be independent, maybe trying to
be active and exploring your world, but then you end
up getting in trouble or being punished for mistakes because
you're not met with compassion, because people, it's like people
expect you to be an adult and you're not yet.
And so those kinds of things just cause this internal
(40:38):
conflict and this sort of vacillation back and forth between
trying to live in the strategies of the jungle and
trying to live in the strategies of the desert and
rapidly switching back and forth and not always finding the
right strategies for the right moments. And but Jesus has
good news for people in the war zone, too, right? That,
like all of these strategies, are strategies and they can
(40:59):
all be changed. And so in the same way that
Jesus meets people in the jungle, in the desert, he
also meets people in the war zone.
S1 (41:06):
Yeah, exactly. Give a word of encouragement to people who
are there, who they're they're they want the intimacy. They
don't trust it. You use the word chaotic over and
over again in describing this. Part of this attachment in
the war zone and chaotic is the last thing you want.
Because Jesus said his own words, I came to give
you peace that passes all understanding, not as the world
gives so chaos and almost totally understandable, but much desired
(41:30):
peace are polar opposites. So how do you help get
someone to that place where the chaos dies down and
the intimacy is not only relished, but experienced?
S7 (41:40):
Yeah, well, I've actually come a little bit from the
war zone myself. So this, this is, you know, very
close to my heart. So the biggest piece peace is
to know that you make sense. You're not crazy. You're
not somehow broken beyond repair. It makes sense that you
find yourself in the place that you find yourself, and
you've done the best you can to survive and to
(42:02):
get where you are. And so just know that you
make sense. You make more sense than you think you do.
And then second to that, that you know, you can
have compassion for yourself because you make sense. And Jesus
has incredible compassion for you. And if you can allow
Jesus to give you the compassion and have that compassion
(42:24):
for yourself, then when you do find yourself sort of
in that place of chaos, just even for myself, you know,
taking a deep breath and hand over my heart and
just saying it makes sense that I find myself where
I am. But Jesus can find me right here, too.
And he can show me the way home. Right. Show
me the new way. And I'm in a new family.
(42:44):
And I'm not in the same family that I was before,
and I've done a lot of repair work with my family,
but those things are still there. And so doing that
work and just remembering that Jesus is the one who
leads the way, and he's never going to give up
on you. Never.
S1 (43:01):
Yes. Amen and amen. Jeff, take us to the pasture.
You call this the confident faith? I bet everybody within
the sound of our voice listening all across the country
wants just exactly that. But everybody was raised by imperfect parents.
So how do we ever get to the pasture?
S9 (43:15):
Yeah, well, the confident faith it comes from, it starts.
It starts with that. That faith that Jesus is the
good shepherd, that he's leading us into pastures and helping
us to lie down. And so we have to take
little steps of faith where we believe that we can
be close to God, be intimate with God and others,
and that he has given us roles of independence and
(43:36):
opportunities to kind of flourish. And so it really starts
with this little seed of faith that that that a
new way is possible for us, and then it moves
from there.
S1 (43:45):
Amen. What a note to end on. And there's so
much more we could talk about, which means there's so
much more in the book. Let me give you the
title again, friends. It's called landscapes of the Soul How
the Science and Spirituality of attachment can move you into
confident faith, courage, and connection. You know, whether you find
yourself in the jungle or the desert or a war zone,
(44:06):
you know what's wonderful? God knows all of that. And
he cares. And he will never leave you or forsake you.
And how precious that his consistency can create that confident faith.
Check it out. The books on my website again. Landscapes
of the soul. Thank you Jeff. Thank you so much
for being with us. And thank you for listening to
In the Market with Janet Parshall. We certainly appreciate it
(44:26):
always to be able to spend time with you. Have
a great rest of your day. We'll see you next time.
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