July 30, 2025 • 44 mins
Are you ready to strengthen your relationship and eliminate the guesswork? Dr. Chris Thurman will join us to offer practical, straightforward guidance for couples seeking to overcome common challenges and deepen their connection. He will draw on his years of counseling experience to provide us with ten essential principles that will help us create lasting, meaningful change in our marriage.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
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with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:52):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:57):
Extremely rare safety move by 17 years.
S6 (02:00):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:18):
Hi, friends.
S1 (02:19):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. So glad
we're going to spend the hour together. And we're going
to talk about, well, if I say it the way
they did in the movie The Princess Bride, it would
be marriage, right? I mean, just stop and think about it. I,
Craig and I have said this, we've been married, um, uh,
over half a century. Let me just put it that
way without going into specifics. Married my high school sweetheart. And,
(02:40):
you know, like every other person who prepares to step
into that sacred union, I think we're going to live
happily ever after. Because, like, the movie, isn't that how
it's supposed to end? Happily ever after? When you think
about it, you think, wait a minute. Okay, put two
sinners together under one roof. This is until death do
(03:00):
you part and then live happily ever after. In what
universe is that going to work? Well, obviously God, who's
not the author of confusion and he does not frustrate
his children, must have felt that that perfect union. And
that's what it was. Because, remember, marriage was made in
a place of perfection. Three institutions family, government, the church
(03:22):
in that order. But the only one of the three
that was made in a place of perfection was marriage.
That gives you a little sneak peek about how important
this institution is to the heart of God. But there
also must be some guidelines in his love letters to
us that tell us how we can do this in
such a way where we really do love each other.
And you know the verse as Christ loved the church, right? Sacrificially, unconditionally,
(03:44):
all of those things. So if I were to ask
you right now, on a scale of 1 to 10,
where is your marriage? You can use a lifeline. Call
a friend if you're sitting next to your spouse might
be curious to see if the two of you have
the same number on the Richter scale to see whether
or not you're in the same place. Well, what we're
going to do this hour is we're going to talk
about taking your marriage not just from surviving, but really thriving.
(04:07):
And our guest, Doctor Chris Thurman, believes that there are
some proven principles for doing just that. I'm glad we
have a chance to spend the hour with Chris. He's
a psychologist and author and a popular speaker. He has
a PhD in counseling psychology from UT from the University
of Texas. He's authored many, many, many books. He's conducted
hundreds of seminars for both churches and corporations around the country.
(04:28):
And out of all of his books, his bestselling thus
far is the book The Lies We Believe. And there
are over a quarter of a million copies out there
that have helped people overcome emotional problems, relationship difficulties, and
barriers to spiritual growth. His latest book is The one
We're talking about today, Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles
for Thriving Together. Chris. The Warmest of Welcomes. I've been
(04:50):
so looking forward to this marriage because I am, as
the song goes, Sadie. Sadie married lady. And I want
to learn everything I can about marriage. I'm never too
old for this, so thank you for being here.
S7 (05:00):
Well, Janet, thank you for having me on. I greatly
appreciate it.
S1 (05:04):
I'm so glad we're talking about this because it's true. I, we,
you know, we've got to say yes to the dress
or love at first sight, all of these horrible television
programs that really, in the final analysis, do nothing but
denigrate marriage, make a mockery of it, and belie the
fact that you have to roll up your sleeves and
work at this. And I love, love, love your example.
Craig and I use this with each other all the time.
(05:24):
We talk about playing 3D chess as a couple all
the time. I laughed out loud when I read that
in your intro. Talk to me about how marriage is
in fact a whole lot of work and it is
like 3D chess.
S7 (05:36):
Well, it's it's definitely a lot of work. I mean, um,
we all know that if we've been married for more than, uh,
a week. Uh, but, uh, uh, it's, you know, it's
not for the faint of heart, that's for sure. Is, uh,
you really have to have your work gloves on. Uh,
it's a great blessing to us from God that we
(06:00):
are married. And we are to steward that marriage as
well as we can. And, um, you know, I wrote
this book because I just wanted to give couples a
pretty clear picture of the roadblocks that they run into. Uh,
that can really damage the chance for the marriage to
(06:20):
be a healthy and loving and safe place to be in.
S1 (06:25):
And I'm so glad you did. And again, I don't
think any of us have ever could ever say we've
got our full of advice because we're learning all the time.
It changes the seasons of our marriage change. Circumstances change.
Sometimes children come into our lives. That changes the dynamic.
Then they leave our lives. That changes the dynamic. Then
we have elderly parents that changes our dynamic, and then
(06:45):
we ourselves, our elderly, and that changes our dynamic. So
it is, to quote Norman Schwarzkopf, a fluid environment, that's
for sure. But you've done this for years where you've
talked to people, and there are ways in which we
can approach marriage with, as you say in the subtitle
of your book, Very Proven Principles before I get to them,
because they're rich and I took all kinds of notes.
(07:06):
Tell me, in all your years as being a counseling,
what is the biggest misunderstanding that people have about marriage?
S7 (07:16):
Oh, boy, there are so many, uh, false ways of
thinking about marriage. I think one of them, in light
of our focus today, is the idea that marriage should
be easy. Hmm. I think a lot of people get
married thinking that it is going to be easy. It'll
be relatively bump free. We won't have to put our
(07:39):
work gloves on and work out our marital salvation over time. Uh,
so to me, that's one of the deadlier Layer misbeliefs
about marriages. It's just going to, you know, we're going
to walk on sunshine the rest of our life and
just be hap hap happy all the time. And, uh,
to me, marriage is more for the purpose of maturing you,
(08:02):
helping you to grow into a more mature, loving human being. So, um,
I would I would trot that one out there as
one of the bigger lies we believe about marriage.
S1 (08:13):
Well, can I linger? Because I think that's so insightful
on your part. And I'm going to start looking at
some of those proven principles on the other side of
the break. But I love what you just said about
it maturing us. I believe that maybe someone just needs
an explanation of why that is a reality. Tell us.
S7 (08:29):
Well, um, I think we can broaden that to a
lot of us have that perspective about life in general,
is that life ought to be easy and that we
shouldn't have to do much suffering. Uh, and I think
the school of hard knocks can really get people's attention
and dry their ears a little bit about, hey, on
(08:50):
this side of heaven, it is hard and difficult, and
I'm not trying to be an Eeyore about it, but
I think a lot of the younger couples, especially, are
prone to buy into the idea that, uh, you know,
marriage should be on autopilot and that we shouldn't really
have to work all that hard to have a good one.
S1 (09:12):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to diving into those principles
when we return. Doctor Chris Thurman is with us. I
have a link to his website, by the way, on
our information page. But out of all the books he's written,
we're talking about his most recent, and I think it's
a timely book for all of us. Real marriage made simple,
proven principles for thriving together. When we get back, we're
going to start looking at some of those principles. So
(09:33):
be encouraged wherever your marriage is today, I hope this
is getting you really deeply into thinking about how you
can improve that marriage from not just surviving, but thriving
back after this. In today's world, people are more confused
(09:55):
than ever about truth and meaning. That's why I've chosen
Why Jesus by Ray comfort is this month's truth tool.
Discover why Jesus is the only path to everlasting life,
and learn how to confidently share that hope with others.
As for your copy of Why Jesus, when you give
a gift of any amount in the market, call 877
Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Chris Thurman.
(10:20):
He's the author of Real Marriage Made Simple. The subtitle
explains what the book is all about proven principles for
thriving together. So you start the first principle as own
your own stuff. That seems pretty self-explanatory, but you dig
into what you call three different kinds of blaming marriages
the character disordered marriage, the neurotic marriage, and the neurotic.
(10:43):
So talk to me about what these are. By the way,
so much of this, when you get into it, is
just common sense. But sometimes we just need somebody to
turn on the flashlight and really illuminate the truth of
some of this stuff. So talk to me about the
blaming marriages.
S7 (10:57):
Well, uh, the what we call the more character disordered
marriage is where you're blaming your emotions and behavior on
your spouse. Uh, you're not taking enough responsibility. Uh, so that's, uh,
really destructive way to go about being married is to. Well,
(11:19):
it's all your fault. I'm unhappy. It's your fault that
I ripped the door off of a hinge. Um, so
the blame game is pretty deadly to marital harmony. Uh,
the more neurotic style, what we refer to as being
more neurotic is the tendency to take responsibility for your
spouse's feelings and behavior. Well, it Well, it is my
(11:42):
fault that they're unhappy and it's my responsibility to make
them happy, and therefore you're kind of enabling them to
blame you for their unhappiness. Most of us bounce back
and forth between the two. I mean, I know in
my marriage to Holly, uh, we're coming up on 45 years,
and there have been times that I've, you know, blamed
(12:04):
her for my unhappiness. And there are times that I
have felt responsible for her unhappiness. And the Lord has
really helped us to move away from those two neurotic
and character disordered styles and just really have a more
healthy approach to taking responsibility for our own emotions and
our own behavior in a marriage.
S1 (12:24):
Mm. Wow. So when you look at all three of those,
it's a perfect example, is it not that this is
where Christ enters into the relationship? Because if you're going
to blame somebody else, there's where's Christ in that equation.
So how does somebody start taking ownership. This goes to
what you said earlier that I again, I thought was
so insightful. This is about the maturing process when you
(12:46):
own your own stuff. It's a nice way of saying
you take responsibility. I rip the hinge off the door
because I was mad because you didn't pick up my
dry cleaning. That's not your fault. You, you and what
you don't want to say is, well, I made you mad.
Therefore I'm responsible. Well, maybe there was some of that
in there, but the person who lashed out has to
take mature responsibility and own it. That's hard to do.
(13:08):
That is a character issue. And far more importantly, Chris,
it seems to me that's a biblical issue. So where
do we begin to exercise that kind of mental muscle
to do that?
S7 (13:17):
Well, I think awareness is half the battle. Janet. I think, um,
we have to be open to the Holy Spirit helping
us to become aware that that's what we're doing, and secondly,
not with a spirit of condemnation, but come under conviction
that it's inappropriate, immature, unhealthy and and that kind of thing.
(13:38):
So when I'm working with clients, I just try to
help them see it more clearly of, hey, this is
that part of you that wants to blame your emotions
and your behavior on your partner. And if they are
followers of Christ, I appeal to let me walk you
through how Christ lived his life. You will never hear
(14:00):
him blame his emotions and his actions on others, and
you will never hear him saying, I'm responsible for the
rich young ruler walking away sad. I'm responsible that the
Pharisees hate me. He didn't take responsibility for other people's
feelings and he never put his own on others. So
(14:20):
I try to appeal to the psychological health of Christ,
and that if we're going to follow in his footsteps,
this issue of owning your own stuff is one of
the bigger ticket items for us to be focused on. Mm.
S1 (14:36):
Very. I love what you said, and thank you for
pointing out what Jesus's reaction would have been so tremendously important.
I can see a vulnerability here, particularly on the the
other spouse. I don't want to say opposing. It sounds
like their boxing sparring, but I don't want to say that.
So on the other spouse's part, if you are the
kind of personality where you're performance oriented, where you think
your affirmation comes by, what you do, that you have
(14:58):
to do it and you have to do it better
than anybody else, and then you're going to get a
pat on the head that says that's good, or that
you feel that you have to appease and please everybody
out there, which is an exhausting way to live, by
the way. That dynamic would be dangerous in a marriage,
it seems to me, because if you're not a owning
your own stuff as the perpetuator, and then if you're
saying it is because of the way I'm hardwired, well,
(15:20):
that kind of lets the other person off the hook,
does it not? But it creates a wounding. It seems
to me, the person who thinks that they're responsible for
everybody and everything around them.
S7 (15:29):
Yeah, it really does. It's rather onerous to be put
on the hook for somebody else's again. Feelings and actions. And, um, it's,
you know, Scripture talks about bear one another's burdens, but
each person should carry their own load. And I think
that's a statement about this very issue. The bear one
(15:51):
another's burdens. Part is we're supposed to come alongside people
that are hurting and care, comfort, encourage. But each person
has to carry their own load, meaning they are responsible
for how they're dealing with their hurt, how they're dealing
with their anger. So the issue of boundaries is what
(16:13):
comes to mind here is we have to have healthier
boundaries in marriage. Otherwise, it's just not going to go
very well.
S1 (16:21):
You also said this again, it's a self-evident truth, but
it bears saying you said we're supposed to genuinely care
about what our spouse feels and how they act. Um,
and this will dovetail later into the conversation. You certainly
dovetail it later in the book on the subject of compassion,
but if you don't care, then you're never going to
own your own stuff, it seems to me.
S7 (16:42):
Yes, I frequently again turn my focus to the life
of Christ. And, um, the fact that we're not responsible
for other people's emotions is not a hall pass not
to care. I mean, the Lord didn't take responsibility for
the Pharisees hatred of him, but he cared about it.
(17:03):
He didn't take responsibility for the rich young ruler being
in bondage to wealth, but he cared about it. So
a heart of compassion is absolutely essential if we're going
to be operating the way the Lord did while he
was here. And we have to care. We have to
have compassion and empathy for people in their pain.
S1 (17:23):
That is Doctor Chris Thurman, talking psychologist, author, popular speaker
and author of the book. That's the basis of our conversation.
Real marriage made simple, proven principles for thriving together. Principles.
Number one, own your own stuff. There are nine more.
Can't guarantee I'll get to all of them. And that's okay,
because if I don't, you need to get the book
back after this. This is in the market with Janet
(17:56):
Parshall and Doctor Chris Thurman as our guest. He's a psychologist, author,
and popular speaker. He is a best selling author. He's
written multiple books, by the way. He speaks all over
the country. His latest book is entitled Real Marriage Made Simple,
and that's what we're talking about today. He's discussing proven
strategies for thriving together, and the first one we touched
on was owning your own stuff. The second one, Give
(18:18):
More Than You Take. And you talk about the different
kinds of marital takers out there. Talk to me about
what you mean about this, Chris.
S7 (18:26):
Well, we have different styles when it comes to the
issue of giving more than we take. Some people are
what I call matchers. They'll give as much as you do,
so they kind of fundamentally match what you offer them. Um,
some people are more, um, I'm going to, uh, take
(18:50):
more than, uh, than you give than I give to you. Uh,
these are the, uh, folks that I think are more
on the selfish side of, you know, I'm in it
for me, and I'm. I'm fundamentally not going to necessarily, uh,
look out for what your needs are. Uh, and then
(19:11):
some people are what I call the whiskers. Uh, these
are folks that it's like, okay, I'm going to pour
myself out as a drink offering to my spouse, and
I'm going to try not to worry about whether or
not I'm getting as much as I'm giving. And that's
a risky way to live because it might not come back. Uh,
(19:32):
unrequited love is painful. You know, when you're giving your
spouse all the attention and appreciation and comfort and encouragement
and all those emotional needs? It's pretty painful when you're
not getting a commensurate reaction from them. So, uh, you know,
those are the styles. And, you know, it's real clear
to me that, uh, if you look again at the
(19:54):
life of the Lord, it was he came to serve,
not to be served. And I think that's staggering, uh,
that he, you know, would be that way with us
when he's God. And, um, we're to follow in those
footsteps of being more of a giver than a taker.
S1 (20:09):
Absolutely. In fact, you write beautifully in the book. This
is Christian love in a nutshell, dying on a daily
basis to your selfishness, pouring yourself out like a drink
offering and going through each day seeking to serve and
not be served. I love that, and I would venture
most people within the sound of our voices. Chris would
say that's inarguable, that it's a is a Christ like position.
It certainly sounds like you're describing Christ when you talk
(20:31):
about that. We are to replicate him within the bounds
of our marriage. Here I can hear the world, though.
I can hear the world roaring back. But but Chris,
what about my felt needs? I'm always giving. He's always taking,
and there isn't any give and take of this marriage
at all. And I. I have needs that have to
be met. In fact, that's why I'm going to leave
this marriage, because you're not meeting my needs. So how
do we throw up a boundary protection and really put
(20:53):
this into practice? Because he's Christ, he's perfect. We're not.
We're sinners living happily ever after under one roof.
S7 (21:01):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. Uh, Janet, is, um,
when I talk with my couples about this issue of
give more than you take, I'm very, uh, clear about
not how to put it without sounding awful. Uh, how
to not, uh, let people mistreat you, how to not
(21:23):
be a doormat. So, um, there's a real fine line
there of healthily loving up on others and serving them,
but being careful not to let it become again a
hall pass for people mistreating you and thinking that that's
okay because it's not. So, uh, in in marriage counseling, uh,
(21:47):
that's a real issue of, okay, are we going to
have a relatively balanced give and take? Uh, are we
going to risk giving more sometimes than at others? And
yet at the same time, let's have, uh, assertive boundaries
about not being mistreated or taken advantage of.
S1 (22:07):
Exactly. You say that you want to challenge us, the reader,
in three important ways when it comes to this giving
and taking. And it's such wise counsel. And I love
the fact that it applies to marriage, but it really
is about maturing spiritually as well. The first thing you
say is that we have to examine ourselves to see
whether in our marriage, every day we're trying to serve
our spouse or wanting them to serve us. That's threshold.
(22:27):
Question number one. Number two. You talk about thinking through
whether you're putting the proper boundaries about giving and taking
that occur in a marriage, and that's a more difficult point. Third,
take an honest look at whether you allow your spouse
to give to you, or whether you get caught up
in some toxic sense of shame and kind of stiff
arm them away. Those last two are interesting because, again,
you know, we bring our own pain and brokenness into
(22:48):
a marriage. So let me go to the third one first.
If we push back and we don't want them to
serve us because of this, quote, toxic sense of shame.
First of all, my heart breaks for that person because
there's some brokenness there who doesn't want to be served
by their spouse. Likewise, who doesn't want to serve their spouse?
If this is part of your background, if you have
a sense of shame, it came from somewhere. Where do
(23:10):
you go to find the eraser to eradicate that out
of your life, so that there is this serving that
we're called to do in our marriage?
S7 (23:18):
Well, again, you are talking about a very important Issue
and shame is a incredibly hard thing to overcome. But
that's what's going on when people struggle to let somebody
serve them up. You know, it's kind of a I'm
(23:39):
not worthy of being loved. That's one of the lies
of shame, is I'm just fundamentally such an awful, horrible
person that I'm not worthy of someone loving me. I
think it was W.C. fields who said I wouldn't be
a member of any club that would have me. And.
(24:01):
I just think that's hilarious.
S1 (24:02):
But I do too.
S5 (24:06):
In fact.
S7 (24:07):
W.C. fields.
S5 (24:08):
To say something.
S7 (24:08):
That funny.
S5 (24:09):
On that note, though, Chris.
S1 (24:10):
Can I just say how much I appreciate all of
the bits of humor that you put into a very
important and sometimes very serious topic, but your your levity
at just the right point and just the right tone
throughout the book is just one of the reasons why
the book is so good. I interrupted the point that
you were trying to finish on. Forgive me for that, please.
The book is called Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles
(24:31):
for Thriving Together. The guest and our author, Doctor Chris Thurman, psychologist, author,
and very popular speaker. We'll be back with more of
those proven principles right after this. There are dozens of
(24:56):
talk shows that address politics, culture and technology, but in
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(25:18):
market with Janet Partial. So we're talking about marriage. We
love it. We want to live happily ever after. It's
not easy. And anybody who's been married more than, as
Chris pointed out earlier, more than one week, you realize
that it's a lot of work. And boy, I really
appreciated what he said. I don't think I've ever heard
anyone say it as succinctly as he did, but it's
(25:39):
a truth. It's a transcendent truth that really, marriage matures us,
yet we bring all our baggage, all our brokenness, all
our proclivities into a marriage. But boy, you have to
live with another person. And guess what? If we're going
to do this the way Scripture tells us to do it.
And by the way, quick side note aren't you glad
God told us? I certainly am, because when Craig and
I get out of line, we just have to go
(25:59):
back to his word and say, wait a minute, wait
a minute. I'm not loving you as Christ loved the church.
I'm not loving you unconditionally and selflessly. And when you
put Jesus back into the equation, it has such a
radical way of changing the dynamic. But there are proven principles,
as Doctor Thurman writes about in his newest book, that
can really help your marriage. And that's what we're talking about.
His newest book is called Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven
(26:22):
Principles for Thriving Together. And we've talked about two of
the ten that that he writes about in his book.
One is Own Your Own Stuff, and the other is
give more than you take. This one is almost a
self-evident truth. But I'll tell you what. For most believers, Chris,
is the issue of humility. And I think it's because
for a lot of people, we don't know the difference
between sincere humility. It's the adjective. It's the descriptor before
(26:44):
the word humble. Is it sincere or is it phony,
manipulative humility. So let me start because I think this
is an important question. What is real humility? What does
it look like? How is it defined?
S7 (26:57):
Well, my understanding, Janet, is that in Scripture, humility is
nothing more or less than an accurate sense of self. Um,
so that's what I think genuine humility is. Um, when
I think, I think when people Can be accurate in
(27:18):
their own mind about their strengths and weaknesses. That's humility. Um,
I grew up in a legalistic enough church that humility
was taught as being down on yourself. Oh, what a
wretched worm am I? Yes, yes. I just I think
that is a distortion of Scripture. I do not think
(27:40):
that is what Scripture is alluding to. Um, and I just,
I feel like it's really important that we see that
genuine humility is your honest and accurate about the things
that are defective, the dark side stuff, and your honest
and accurate about the strengths and talents and abilities that
(28:03):
God has put in you and that you don't, you know,
kind of have false humility of, oh, I'm not really
good at anything because God doesn't make people who aren't
good at something. Uh, so to me, that's what humility is.
S1 (28:16):
Hmm. Well, so then you break it down in the
book of three different kinds of arrogance. And that really
is the antithesis of humility. Is it not thinking more
highly of yourself than you ought to quote Scripture on this?
And so it's like goldilocks's porridge. You can think too
highly of yourself. You can think too lowly of yourself.
Or there is the mixed arrogance. Can you tell me
(28:36):
a little bit about each of those?
S7 (28:39):
Yeah, I think that's a great verse to refer to. Um,
thinking too highly of yourself is arrogance. Um, you're getting
over your skis about how great you are. You know,
I grew up in singing How Great Thou Art. Uh,
but some people, it's more how great I art in
(28:59):
the slide. Okay, first of all, you're not great. Okay. But, uh,
the other flip side of that is kind of interesting, though, because, um,
there's a tendency to think how categorically awful you are.
And that's not any more true. Um, so, um, this
(29:23):
notion of not thinking more highly or lowly of yourself
is not something that we hear often enough. Um, you know,
we're just not prone to hear it taught that way. And, um, so, yeah,
we don't want to think more highly of ourselves in
marriage or outside of marriage than is accurate. But we
don't want to think more lowly of ourselves either.
S1 (29:46):
Exactly. So then how, if you look at what you
just said, how do you define mixed arrogance? What does
that mean?
S7 (29:53):
Well, it's just a combination of those two unhealthy forms
of pride. Uh, you're you're bouncing back and forth like
a pinball between bumpers. If you, on the one hand,
sometimes think you are God's gift to the planet, which
you are not. That was 2000 years ago. And, um,
(30:17):
you know, you can bounce over to. I'm just I
have no redeeming qualities. I'm just an awful, horrible, no
good nick. And that's untrue also. So you're you're just
not being truthful about who you really are in Christ
if you're going either direction.
S1 (30:35):
So here's the rub on this one. And we've talked
about the definition of humility. And you have a beautiful
quote in here from Thomas Merton about about humility, which
is important. Um, it's a condition of the heart. It
also has an exercise. And for a lot of people,
it's a big problem. You can't fake humility. What does
that look like, then, in a marriage?
S7 (30:57):
Well, uh, I wish you and I had about eight hours. Uh, that's, uh.
That's a multi-layered thing right there. Um, let me just, uh,
escape answering it by saying, I think one of the
wonderful things about marriage, if we can see it this way,
(31:20):
is that it's to be iron sharpening iron. And therefore,
if we can humble ourselves and go to our spouse
and ask for feedback on what they think are flaws
are and what they think our strengths are, I think
marriage is supposed to be again for growth and maturity. And,
(31:42):
you know, if we can turn to our spouse for
what we hope would be accurate input on both sides
of that coin, I think we're doing ourselves in the
marriage a favor. Uh, I want my wife, Holly, to
feel safe enough with me to come to me and say, hey,
what do you see about me that you don't think
(32:02):
I see about myself? And I want to do that
with her. I want us to be iron sharpening iron
in our day to day interactions and not shrink away
from it.
S1 (32:12):
Yeah. Wow. That's so good. Again, I want to remind
my friends that in the book, Real Marriage Made Simple,
Doctor Thurman has ten proven principles for thriving together. And again,
while he is a gifted counseling psychologist, I have to
tell you what I find so attractive about the work
that Doctor Thurman does is he's biblically based, as evidenced
by our conversation. So he understands I'm he can talk
(32:34):
young and Gestalt and Maslow until the cows come home
if he wants to. But we're talking about the final
answer here is the super glue of Jesus that holds
a marriage together and really provides us for the ability
to thrive as a couple as well. So what? What
do you mean? This is the next one, by the way.
So we've talked about owning your own stuff, giving more
than you take and humbling yourself. Then the next proven
(32:54):
principle is get your mind right now. This is not self-evident.
Break this down for us, please.
S7 (33:01):
Well, one of the themes of Scripture, as far as
I'm concerned, is be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
So another thing that I think we know is that
we all come into marriage with what I would call
a broken thinker. Uh, we are not playing the right
tapes in our head to some degree. Okay? So, uh,
(33:24):
when I wrote the Lives We Believe in the late 80s,
that's what that book was about. It's like, hey, let
me suggest 30 plus different faulty forms of thinking according
to what Scripture says is true. Uh, and then I
wrote a book a number of years ago called The
Lies Couples Believe, which is ten specific faulty forms of
(33:46):
thinking that couples fall into if they're not careful. So
everybody's got a broken thinker. Everybody needs the Holy Spirit's
help to be renewed in their minds. And that's a
lifelong process, because you never perfectly have the mind of
Christ in you. It's all the way to the grave
in terms of taking thoughts captive and learning to think
(34:09):
on what's true, lovely, pure and worthwhile. That's just, to me,
really hard work. The rest of our lives.
S1 (34:17):
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. And I was thinking how this
does tie so beautifully into your best selling book, The
Lies We Believe. One of the worst lines, and I've
said this on the air before, and I'm not taking
it back. I still stand by it. One of the
worst movie trivia lines ever spoken was Tom cruise when
he said, you complete me. That is a dangerous idea.
(34:38):
Tell me why that's so wrong.
S7 (34:41):
Well, um. Uh, it's got about 14 things wrong with it.
One of them is you're you're kind of putting your
self in their hands, and it doesn't belong there. You know,
it's not anybody's job to complete you. Plus, they can't,
(35:02):
you know, you have to work on becoming whole yourself. Now,
that's not to say that we shouldn't turn to a
spouse for their love and their help along the way
in terms of growing and maturing. But this notion of,
you know, it's even in the dating world of there's
(35:23):
one person out there that's the the one for me
and only one. And it's like, you know, that's a
pipe dream. And let's let's knock it off and get real. And,
you know, just look for who God might want out
of the pool of people that are available. Who might
God be more than happy for us to marry? And,
(35:45):
you know, we can work out things from there.
S1 (35:48):
Yeah. Wow. So I we could spend the rest of
the hour just talking about these lies that people hear
over and over and over again, the demand that my
spouse should be just like me, or my spouse should
accept me just the way I am, you know? For
the believer, thank you, Lord, for not accepting me just
the way I am. Thank you for conforming and transforming
(36:08):
me to the image of Christ. Thank you for reminding
me you're the potter, I'm the clay and that you
are applying pressure and molding and shaping me to be
the vessel you want me to be. So if that's
what Christ is doing to me, why would I think
it's like, here, Craig, this is it. Take it or
leave it. I mean, that just doesn't align itself with
the the context and the principles of Scripture as well.
So let me take a break. This hour is going
(36:30):
far too quickly. There are a lot of things that
are wonderful in this book. It's called real Marriage Made Simple,
Proven Principles for Thriving Together. I also have a link
to Doctor Thurman's website, all of that on the information
page in the market with Janet Parshall. Click the red box.
It'll take you there back after this. Conversation, isn't it?
(36:55):
I mean, marriage is so tremendously important to the heart
of God. If you want to know the character of God,
read His word. So there it is, at the very
beginning of those 66 books that don't contain the Word
of God, but they are the Word of God. He
establishes after creation what does he do? He establishes marriage
to find his one man, one woman, and he puts
that union together, that sacred union that is about, oh,
(37:18):
so much more than procreation and companionship. It is the
profundity of recognizing how much Christ loves us, how he
is the bridegroom. We as the believers are the bride.
I mean, the deep, rich theology and the idea of
marriage is really it cannot be ignored. But it also
means that it's going to be an institution that the
(37:38):
enemy is going to go after. So when we're self-centered,
when it's me first, when you're the problem, when I'm
not being kind to you and I'm not loving you
the way I'm supposed to love you, I'm not replicating
Christ in the way I interact with you. Marriage is
not only don't thrive, they barely survive. And that's why
the divorce rate goes through the roof. And I wish
I could tell you that the church was immune, but
it's not. Which is why conversations like this with Doctor
(38:01):
Chris Thurman are so tremendously important and timely. Doctor Thurman, again,
is a psychologist and author, popular speaker. He's the author
of many, many books. He's the best selling author of
the book The Lies We Believe. And today, the book
we're talking about is Real Marriage Made simple, proven principles
for thriving together. Now again, this is not a fireside chat.
Or is it a book report? So there's so much
(38:22):
in here. And I told you there are ten principles
we've touched on four, but there's a whole lot more.
I want to just go back to something we talked
about earlier, and that is this idea of compassion. It's,
you know, I'm in Washington, so we talk a lot
about self-evident truths, right? It's right there in our guiding documents.
And one would think that the idea of being compassionate
toward your spouse would be a self-evident truth. But, um,
(38:44):
I hear a multiplicity of pop songs going through my
head right now about not loving you anymore. And maybe
you have to tell us, Chris, is there a distinction
between compassion and love? Can you have one without the other?
And if you've lost that loving feeling, can you put
at least compassion back in your marriage again?
S7 (39:04):
Uh, you know, Janet, I could be wrong on this,
but I think love and compassion have to go hand
in hand. Mhm. Uh, I don't think, uh, God's agape
love for us is an incredibly compassionate love. Uh, you know,
it talks a lot about how the Lord looked across
the crowd and had compassion, uh, for them. So, um,
(39:28):
to me, they are inextricably tied together. Um, and so
when I see a couple that doesn't have compassion for
each other, I know that there is some degree of
a hardness of heart in play. And that's pretty deadly to, uh, any,
any marriage.
S1 (39:48):
So on that note, you're a psychologist, but, you know,
there's a little bit of that in what I do
as well, because I hear from so many people who
will talk about their marriages as being dull, dead, no affection,
no intimacy whatsoever. And we're sticking it out and sticking
it through because, oh, you know, we know that no
matter what, we're till death do us part. And it
(40:08):
would be a grievous sin if we decided to file
for divorce. So there are a lot of miserable people
in marriages in the church. And I know that this
is a little bit outside the realm of what this
particular book talks about, but I would be remiss not
to tap into the richness of your experience and your
mind on this. If you're in a place where there's
nothing but coldness in your marriage because you're not even
going to be interested in these proven principles if you
(40:30):
don't want to thrive because you're just gritting your teeth
and experiencing it until the Lord calls one of the
two of you home, how do you rekindle that again?
Because the love, as we get older, in truth, and
you and I know this is older married people, it's
a different kind of a love. It's a richer, better, broader,
more significant kind of love. When you had the butterflies,
when you started your relationship together. But if it's gone,
(40:51):
how do you get it back?
S7 (40:53):
Well, I make a distinction with my clients between three
kinds of love arrows, which is sexual longing for somebody, philia,
which is emotional fondness for somebody, and agape, which from
my perspective is an act of will aimed at fostering growth.
(41:16):
So what I try to do to rekindle people's love
for each other is, would you guys be willing to
consider working on agape with each other? Would you be
willing to keep working on fostering each other's growth, and
let that pull the philia and the eros along with it?
(41:39):
Does that make any sense?
S1 (41:40):
Oh, it makes perfect sense to people to whom you
have shared that counsel. Have you gotten positive results? In
other words, I guess I'm asking simply, does that work?
S7 (41:50):
Well, it does if we. I'm kind of sports oriented.
It does if we play ball. Yeah. You know, it's like, okay,
you know, if you're going to tell God, you're not
going to comply with his command to love one another,
which is agape. Uh, then, you know, you reap what
(42:10):
you sow, and you can't be expecting that the relationship's
going to be all that good. So, um, I kind
of put my clients on the hook for, you know,
you've got to roll up your sleeves and be part
of the solution, not part of the problem. Uh, kind
of thing. So.
S1 (42:26):
Yeah. Absolutely. You do something wonderful. And I always love
it when authors do this, because it tells me they have,
at their core, a teacher's heart. The back part of
the book is really a workbook. Tell me how this works.
S7 (42:39):
Well, I'm a real believer in be doers of the
word and not hearers only. Uh, to me it's really
important to gain knowledge and understanding. But if you don't
metaphorically put it out there on the playing field. It's
really not going to do you much good, right? So
I push people, hey, I want to, you know, I'm
real homework oriented in my office. I really believe in that.
(43:04):
And so I push people pretty hard. You know, I've
got a real teacher in me. I'm. I'm more teacher
than I am counselor. Psychotherapist. So I just get them
working pretty hard in that way.
S1 (43:16):
Why am I not surprised that it really, at your core,
you are a teacher that comes through so loud and
clear in the book. In the minute I have left. Chris,
talk to me about the power of the word perseverance
and how it applies to this conversation.
S7 (43:29):
Well, it's real easy to grow weary, right? Um, marriage
is so incredibly hard. So it's real easy to metaphorically
take your hand off the plow and just say, you know,
I'm just not going to continue to work this hard
on something. Uh, so I try to talk about the
importance of perseverance, what they call as grit in the
(43:51):
secular world, and that you have to have grit. You
got to have stick to itiveness. You got to make
a commitment to go all in. And anything less than
that is not going to be sufficient.
S1 (44:03):
What a joy it is to hear you use the
word sticktuitiveness. It made me think of my dad, who
used that phrase all the time when an important value
that is. Chris, let me get people to my information
page so they can read this book. And remember, I
did four of the ten and I flew over the
four that we did talk about. There is a wealth
of information, and I also wanted you to know there's
a workbook in the back. So there's really a chance
(44:24):
for the two of you around your kitchen table with
a cup of coffee to walk through this as a couple,
to be of one mind, one heart. Wanting to serve Jesus,
seeing him as the unseen guest at that breakfast table.
As you're honoring him through your marriage, go to In
the Market with Janet Parshall. Click on the red box.
It says Program Details and audio. It'll take you to
the website. There's the book. Click on through to get
(44:44):
your copy. Chris, thank you so much for great conversation.
See you next time, friends.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that encourages edifies, equips, enlightens,
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It's Ray Comfort's book. Why? Jesus? If you listen to
(00:22):
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He is bold, unashamed of the gospel. And yet in
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by examples and through real conversations he's had on how
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(00:43):
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(01:45):
with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:52):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:57):
Extremely rare safety move by 17 years.
S6 (02:00):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:18):
Hi, friends.
S1 (02:19):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. So glad
we're going to spend the hour together. And we're going
to talk about, well, if I say it the way
they did in the movie The Princess Bride, it would
be marriage, right? I mean, just stop and think about it. I,
Craig and I have said this, we've been married, um, uh,
over half a century. Let me just put it that
way without going into specifics. Married my high school sweetheart. And,
(02:40):
you know, like every other person who prepares to step
into that sacred union, I think we're going to live
happily ever after. Because, like, the movie, isn't that how
it's supposed to end? Happily ever after? When you think
about it, you think, wait a minute. Okay, put two
sinners together under one roof. This is until death do
(03:00):
you part and then live happily ever after. In what
universe is that going to work? Well, obviously God, who's
not the author of confusion and he does not frustrate
his children, must have felt that that perfect union. And
that's what it was. Because, remember, marriage was made in
a place of perfection. Three institutions family, government, the church
(03:22):
in that order. But the only one of the three
that was made in a place of perfection was marriage.
That gives you a little sneak peek about how important
this institution is to the heart of God. But there
also must be some guidelines in his love letters to
us that tell us how we can do this in
such a way where we really do love each other.
And you know the verse as Christ loved the church, right? Sacrificially, unconditionally,
(03:44):
all of those things. So if I were to ask
you right now, on a scale of 1 to 10,
where is your marriage? You can use a lifeline. Call
a friend if you're sitting next to your spouse might
be curious to see if the two of you have
the same number on the Richter scale to see whether
or not you're in the same place. Well, what we're
going to do this hour is we're going to talk
about taking your marriage not just from surviving, but really thriving.
(04:07):
And our guest, Doctor Chris Thurman, believes that there are
some proven principles for doing just that. I'm glad we
have a chance to spend the hour with Chris. He's
a psychologist and author and a popular speaker. He has
a PhD in counseling psychology from UT from the University
of Texas. He's authored many, many, many books. He's conducted
hundreds of seminars for both churches and corporations around the country.
(04:28):
And out of all of his books, his bestselling thus
far is the book The Lies We Believe. And there
are over a quarter of a million copies out there
that have helped people overcome emotional problems, relationship difficulties, and
barriers to spiritual growth. His latest book is The one
We're talking about today, Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles
for Thriving Together. Chris. The Warmest of Welcomes. I've been
(04:50):
so looking forward to this marriage because I am, as
the song goes, Sadie. Sadie married lady. And I want
to learn everything I can about marriage. I'm never too
old for this, so thank you for being here.
S7 (05:00):
Well, Janet, thank you for having me on. I greatly
appreciate it.
S1 (05:04):
I'm so glad we're talking about this because it's true. I, we,
you know, we've got to say yes to the dress
or love at first sight, all of these horrible television
programs that really, in the final analysis, do nothing but
denigrate marriage, make a mockery of it, and belie the
fact that you have to roll up your sleeves and
work at this. And I love, love, love your example.
Craig and I use this with each other all the time.
(05:24):
We talk about playing 3D chess as a couple all
the time. I laughed out loud when I read that
in your intro. Talk to me about how marriage is
in fact a whole lot of work and it is
like 3D chess.
S7 (05:36):
Well, it's it's definitely a lot of work. I mean, um,
we all know that if we've been married for more than, uh,
a week. Uh, but, uh, uh, it's, you know, it's
not for the faint of heart, that's for sure. Is, uh,
you really have to have your work gloves on. Uh,
it's a great blessing to us from God that we
(06:00):
are married. And we are to steward that marriage as
well as we can. And, um, you know, I wrote
this book because I just wanted to give couples a
pretty clear picture of the roadblocks that they run into. Uh,
that can really damage the chance for the marriage to
(06:20):
be a healthy and loving and safe place to be in.
S1 (06:25):
And I'm so glad you did. And again, I don't
think any of us have ever could ever say we've
got our full of advice because we're learning all the time.
It changes the seasons of our marriage change. Circumstances change.
Sometimes children come into our lives. That changes the dynamic.
Then they leave our lives. That changes the dynamic. Then
we have elderly parents that changes our dynamic, and then
(06:45):
we ourselves, our elderly, and that changes our dynamic. So
it is, to quote Norman Schwarzkopf, a fluid environment, that's
for sure. But you've done this for years where you've
talked to people, and there are ways in which we
can approach marriage with, as you say in the subtitle
of your book, Very Proven Principles before I get to them,
because they're rich and I took all kinds of notes.
(07:06):
Tell me, in all your years as being a counseling,
what is the biggest misunderstanding that people have about marriage?
S7 (07:16):
Oh, boy, there are so many, uh, false ways of
thinking about marriage. I think one of them, in light
of our focus today, is the idea that marriage should
be easy. Hmm. I think a lot of people get
married thinking that it is going to be easy. It'll
be relatively bump free. We won't have to put our
(07:39):
work gloves on and work out our marital salvation over time. Uh,
so to me, that's one of the deadlier Layer misbeliefs
about marriages. It's just going to, you know, we're going
to walk on sunshine the rest of our life and
just be hap hap happy all the time. And, uh,
to me, marriage is more for the purpose of maturing you,
(08:02):
helping you to grow into a more mature, loving human being. So, um,
I would I would trot that one out there as
one of the bigger lies we believe about marriage.
S1 (08:13):
Well, can I linger? Because I think that's so insightful
on your part. And I'm going to start looking at
some of those proven principles on the other side of
the break. But I love what you just said about
it maturing us. I believe that maybe someone just needs
an explanation of why that is a reality. Tell us.
S7 (08:29):
Well, um, I think we can broaden that to a
lot of us have that perspective about life in general,
is that life ought to be easy and that we
shouldn't have to do much suffering. Uh, and I think
the school of hard knocks can really get people's attention
and dry their ears a little bit about, hey, on
(08:50):
this side of heaven, it is hard and difficult, and
I'm not trying to be an Eeyore about it, but
I think a lot of the younger couples, especially, are
prone to buy into the idea that, uh, you know,
marriage should be on autopilot and that we shouldn't really
have to work all that hard to have a good one.
S1 (09:12):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to diving into those principles
when we return. Doctor Chris Thurman is with us. I
have a link to his website, by the way, on
our information page. But out of all the books he's written,
we're talking about his most recent, and I think it's
a timely book for all of us. Real marriage made simple,
proven principles for thriving together. When we get back, we're
going to start looking at some of those principles. So
(09:33):
be encouraged wherever your marriage is today, I hope this
is getting you really deeply into thinking about how you
can improve that marriage from not just surviving, but thriving
back after this. In today's world, people are more confused
(09:55):
than ever about truth and meaning. That's why I've chosen
Why Jesus by Ray comfort is this month's truth tool.
Discover why Jesus is the only path to everlasting life,
and learn how to confidently share that hope with others.
As for your copy of Why Jesus, when you give
a gift of any amount in the market, call 877
Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Chris Thurman.
(10:20):
He's the author of Real Marriage Made Simple. The subtitle
explains what the book is all about proven principles for
thriving together. So you start the first principle as own
your own stuff. That seems pretty self-explanatory, but you dig
into what you call three different kinds of blaming marriages
the character disordered marriage, the neurotic marriage, and the neurotic.
(10:43):
So talk to me about what these are. By the way,
so much of this, when you get into it, is
just common sense. But sometimes we just need somebody to
turn on the flashlight and really illuminate the truth of
some of this stuff. So talk to me about the
blaming marriages.
S7 (10:57):
Well, uh, the what we call the more character disordered
marriage is where you're blaming your emotions and behavior on
your spouse. Uh, you're not taking enough responsibility. Uh, so that's, uh,
really destructive way to go about being married is to. Well,
(11:19):
it's all your fault. I'm unhappy. It's your fault that
I ripped the door off of a hinge. Um, so
the blame game is pretty deadly to marital harmony. Uh,
the more neurotic style, what we refer to as being
more neurotic is the tendency to take responsibility for your
spouse's feelings and behavior. Well, it Well, it is my
(11:42):
fault that they're unhappy and it's my responsibility to make
them happy, and therefore you're kind of enabling them to
blame you for their unhappiness. Most of us bounce back
and forth between the two. I mean, I know in
my marriage to Holly, uh, we're coming up on 45 years,
and there have been times that I've, you know, blamed
(12:04):
her for my unhappiness. And there are times that I
have felt responsible for her unhappiness. And the Lord has
really helped us to move away from those two neurotic
and character disordered styles and just really have a more
healthy approach to taking responsibility for our own emotions and
our own behavior in a marriage.
S1 (12:24):
Mm. Wow. So when you look at all three of those,
it's a perfect example, is it not that this is
where Christ enters into the relationship? Because if you're going
to blame somebody else, there's where's Christ in that equation.
So how does somebody start taking ownership. This goes to
what you said earlier that I again, I thought was
so insightful. This is about the maturing process when you
(12:46):
own your own stuff. It's a nice way of saying
you take responsibility. I rip the hinge off the door
because I was mad because you didn't pick up my
dry cleaning. That's not your fault. You, you and what
you don't want to say is, well, I made you mad.
Therefore I'm responsible. Well, maybe there was some of that
in there, but the person who lashed out has to
take mature responsibility and own it. That's hard to do.
(13:08):
That is a character issue. And far more importantly, Chris,
it seems to me that's a biblical issue. So where
do we begin to exercise that kind of mental muscle
to do that?
S7 (13:17):
Well, I think awareness is half the battle. Janet. I think, um,
we have to be open to the Holy Spirit helping
us to become aware that that's what we're doing, and secondly,
not with a spirit of condemnation, but come under conviction
that it's inappropriate, immature, unhealthy and and that kind of thing.
(13:38):
So when I'm working with clients, I just try to
help them see it more clearly of, hey, this is
that part of you that wants to blame your emotions
and your behavior on your partner. And if they are
followers of Christ, I appeal to let me walk you
through how Christ lived his life. You will never hear
(14:00):
him blame his emotions and his actions on others, and
you will never hear him saying, I'm responsible for the
rich young ruler walking away sad. I'm responsible that the
Pharisees hate me. He didn't take responsibility for other people's
feelings and he never put his own on others. So
(14:20):
I try to appeal to the psychological health of Christ,
and that if we're going to follow in his footsteps,
this issue of owning your own stuff is one of
the bigger ticket items for us to be focused on. Mm.
S1 (14:36):
Very. I love what you said, and thank you for
pointing out what Jesus's reaction would have been so tremendously important.
I can see a vulnerability here, particularly on the the
other spouse. I don't want to say opposing. It sounds
like their boxing sparring, but I don't want to say that.
So on the other spouse's part, if you are the
kind of personality where you're performance oriented, where you think
your affirmation comes by, what you do, that you have
(14:58):
to do it and you have to do it better
than anybody else, and then you're going to get a
pat on the head that says that's good, or that
you feel that you have to appease and please everybody
out there, which is an exhausting way to live, by
the way. That dynamic would be dangerous in a marriage,
it seems to me, because if you're not a owning
your own stuff as the perpetuator, and then if you're
saying it is because of the way I'm hardwired, well,
(15:20):
that kind of lets the other person off the hook,
does it not? But it creates a wounding. It seems
to me, the person who thinks that they're responsible for
everybody and everything around them.
S7 (15:29):
Yeah, it really does. It's rather onerous to be put
on the hook for somebody else's again. Feelings and actions. And, um, it's,
you know, Scripture talks about bear one another's burdens, but
each person should carry their own load. And I think
that's a statement about this very issue. The bear one
(15:51):
another's burdens. Part is we're supposed to come alongside people
that are hurting and care, comfort, encourage. But each person
has to carry their own load, meaning they are responsible
for how they're dealing with their hurt, how they're dealing
with their anger. So the issue of boundaries is what
(16:13):
comes to mind here is we have to have healthier
boundaries in marriage. Otherwise, it's just not going to go
very well.
S1 (16:21):
You also said this again, it's a self-evident truth, but
it bears saying you said we're supposed to genuinely care
about what our spouse feels and how they act. Um,
and this will dovetail later into the conversation. You certainly
dovetail it later in the book on the subject of compassion,
but if you don't care, then you're never going to
own your own stuff, it seems to me.
S7 (16:42):
Yes, I frequently again turn my focus to the life
of Christ. And, um, the fact that we're not responsible
for other people's emotions is not a hall pass not
to care. I mean, the Lord didn't take responsibility for
the Pharisees hatred of him, but he cared about it.
(17:03):
He didn't take responsibility for the rich young ruler being
in bondage to wealth, but he cared about it. So
a heart of compassion is absolutely essential if we're going
to be operating the way the Lord did while he
was here. And we have to care. We have to
have compassion and empathy for people in their pain.
S1 (17:23):
That is Doctor Chris Thurman, talking psychologist, author, popular speaker
and author of the book. That's the basis of our conversation.
Real marriage made simple, proven principles for thriving together. Principles.
Number one, own your own stuff. There are nine more.
Can't guarantee I'll get to all of them. And that's okay,
because if I don't, you need to get the book
back after this. This is in the market with Janet
(17:56):
Parshall and Doctor Chris Thurman as our guest. He's a psychologist, author,
and popular speaker. He is a best selling author. He's
written multiple books, by the way. He speaks all over
the country. His latest book is entitled Real Marriage Made Simple,
and that's what we're talking about today. He's discussing proven
strategies for thriving together, and the first one we touched
on was owning your own stuff. The second one, Give
(18:18):
More Than You Take. And you talk about the different
kinds of marital takers out there. Talk to me about
what you mean about this, Chris.
S7 (18:26):
Well, we have different styles when it comes to the
issue of giving more than we take. Some people are
what I call matchers. They'll give as much as you do,
so they kind of fundamentally match what you offer them. Um,
some people are more, um, I'm going to, uh, take
(18:50):
more than, uh, than you give than I give to you. Uh,
these are the, uh, folks that I think are more
on the selfish side of, you know, I'm in it
for me, and I'm. I'm fundamentally not going to necessarily, uh,
look out for what your needs are. Uh, and then
(19:11):
some people are what I call the whiskers. Uh, these
are folks that it's like, okay, I'm going to pour
myself out as a drink offering to my spouse, and
I'm going to try not to worry about whether or
not I'm getting as much as I'm giving. And that's
a risky way to live because it might not come back. Uh,
(19:32):
unrequited love is painful. You know, when you're giving your
spouse all the attention and appreciation and comfort and encouragement
and all those emotional needs? It's pretty painful when you're
not getting a commensurate reaction from them. So, uh, you know,
those are the styles. And, you know, it's real clear
to me that, uh, if you look again at the
(19:54):
life of the Lord, it was he came to serve,
not to be served. And I think that's staggering, uh,
that he, you know, would be that way with us
when he's God. And, um, we're to follow in those
footsteps of being more of a giver than a taker.
S1 (20:09):
Absolutely. In fact, you write beautifully in the book. This
is Christian love in a nutshell, dying on a daily
basis to your selfishness, pouring yourself out like a drink
offering and going through each day seeking to serve and
not be served. I love that, and I would venture
most people within the sound of our voices. Chris would
say that's inarguable, that it's a is a Christ like position.
It certainly sounds like you're describing Christ when you talk
(20:31):
about that. We are to replicate him within the bounds
of our marriage. Here I can hear the world, though.
I can hear the world roaring back. But but Chris,
what about my felt needs? I'm always giving. He's always taking,
and there isn't any give and take of this marriage
at all. And I. I have needs that have to
be met. In fact, that's why I'm going to leave
this marriage, because you're not meeting my needs. So how
do we throw up a boundary protection and really put
(20:53):
this into practice? Because he's Christ, he's perfect. We're not.
We're sinners living happily ever after under one roof.
S7 (21:01):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. Uh, Janet, is, um,
when I talk with my couples about this issue of
give more than you take, I'm very, uh, clear about
not how to put it without sounding awful. Uh, how
to not, uh, let people mistreat you, how to not
(21:23):
be a doormat. So, um, there's a real fine line
there of healthily loving up on others and serving them,
but being careful not to let it become again a
hall pass for people mistreating you and thinking that that's
okay because it's not. So, uh, in in marriage counseling, uh,
(21:47):
that's a real issue of, okay, are we going to
have a relatively balanced give and take? Uh, are we
going to risk giving more sometimes than at others? And
yet at the same time, let's have, uh, assertive boundaries
about not being mistreated or taken advantage of.
S1 (22:07):
Exactly. You say that you want to challenge us, the reader,
in three important ways when it comes to this giving
and taking. And it's such wise counsel. And I love
the fact that it applies to marriage, but it really
is about maturing spiritually as well. The first thing you
say is that we have to examine ourselves to see
whether in our marriage, every day we're trying to serve
our spouse or wanting them to serve us. That's threshold.
(22:27):
Question number one. Number two. You talk about thinking through
whether you're putting the proper boundaries about giving and taking
that occur in a marriage, and that's a more difficult point. Third,
take an honest look at whether you allow your spouse
to give to you, or whether you get caught up
in some toxic sense of shame and kind of stiff
arm them away. Those last two are interesting because, again,
you know, we bring our own pain and brokenness into
(22:48):
a marriage. So let me go to the third one first.
If we push back and we don't want them to
serve us because of this, quote, toxic sense of shame.
First of all, my heart breaks for that person because
there's some brokenness there who doesn't want to be served
by their spouse. Likewise, who doesn't want to serve their spouse?
If this is part of your background, if you have
a sense of shame, it came from somewhere. Where do
(23:10):
you go to find the eraser to eradicate that out
of your life, so that there is this serving that
we're called to do in our marriage?
S7 (23:18):
Well, again, you are talking about a very important Issue
and shame is a incredibly hard thing to overcome. But
that's what's going on when people struggle to let somebody
serve them up. You know, it's kind of a I'm
(23:39):
not worthy of being loved. That's one of the lies
of shame, is I'm just fundamentally such an awful, horrible
person that I'm not worthy of someone loving me. I
think it was W.C. fields who said I wouldn't be
a member of any club that would have me. And.
(24:01):
I just think that's hilarious.
S1 (24:02):
But I do too.
S5 (24:06):
In fact.
S7 (24:07):
W.C. fields.
S5 (24:08):
To say something.
S7 (24:08):
That funny.
S5 (24:09):
On that note, though, Chris.
S1 (24:10):
Can I just say how much I appreciate all of
the bits of humor that you put into a very
important and sometimes very serious topic, but your your levity
at just the right point and just the right tone
throughout the book is just one of the reasons why
the book is so good. I interrupted the point that
you were trying to finish on. Forgive me for that, please.
The book is called Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles
(24:31):
for Thriving Together. The guest and our author, Doctor Chris Thurman, psychologist, author,
and very popular speaker. We'll be back with more of
those proven principles right after this. There are dozens of
(24:56):
talk shows that address politics, culture and technology, but in
the market is committed to bringing biblical truths to every
facet of life. When you financially support in the market
as a partial partner, you're helping people to better understand
how their faith intersects with their daily lives. Become a
partial partner today and receive exclusive benefits prepared just for you.
Call 877 Janet, 58 or go online to in the
(25:18):
market with Janet Partial. So we're talking about marriage. We
love it. We want to live happily ever after. It's
not easy. And anybody who's been married more than, as
Chris pointed out earlier, more than one week, you realize
that it's a lot of work. And boy, I really
appreciated what he said. I don't think I've ever heard
anyone say it as succinctly as he did, but it's
(25:39):
a truth. It's a transcendent truth that really, marriage matures us,
yet we bring all our baggage, all our brokenness, all
our proclivities into a marriage. But boy, you have to
live with another person. And guess what? If we're going
to do this the way Scripture tells us to do it.
And by the way, quick side note aren't you glad
God told us? I certainly am, because when Craig and
I get out of line, we just have to go
(25:59):
back to his word and say, wait a minute, wait
a minute. I'm not loving you as Christ loved the church.
I'm not loving you unconditionally and selflessly. And when you
put Jesus back into the equation, it has such a
radical way of changing the dynamic. But there are proven principles,
as Doctor Thurman writes about in his newest book, that
can really help your marriage. And that's what we're talking about.
His newest book is called Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven
(26:22):
Principles for Thriving Together. And we've talked about two of
the ten that that he writes about in his book.
One is Own Your Own Stuff, and the other is
give more than you take. This one is almost a
self-evident truth. But I'll tell you what. For most believers, Chris,
is the issue of humility. And I think it's because
for a lot of people, we don't know the difference
between sincere humility. It's the adjective. It's the descriptor before
(26:44):
the word humble. Is it sincere or is it phony,
manipulative humility. So let me start because I think this
is an important question. What is real humility? What does
it look like? How is it defined?
S7 (26:57):
Well, my understanding, Janet, is that in Scripture, humility is
nothing more or less than an accurate sense of self. Um,
so that's what I think genuine humility is. Um, when
I think, I think when people Can be accurate in
(27:18):
their own mind about their strengths and weaknesses. That's humility. Um,
I grew up in a legalistic enough church that humility
was taught as being down on yourself. Oh, what a
wretched worm am I? Yes, yes. I just I think
that is a distortion of Scripture. I do not think
(27:40):
that is what Scripture is alluding to. Um, and I just,
I feel like it's really important that we see that
genuine humility is your honest and accurate about the things
that are defective, the dark side stuff, and your honest
and accurate about the strengths and talents and abilities that
(28:03):
God has put in you and that you don't, you know,
kind of have false humility of, oh, I'm not really
good at anything because God doesn't make people who aren't
good at something. Uh, so to me, that's what humility is.
S1 (28:16):
Hmm. Well, so then you break it down in the
book of three different kinds of arrogance. And that really
is the antithesis of humility. Is it not thinking more
highly of yourself than you ought to quote Scripture on this?
And so it's like goldilocks's porridge. You can think too
highly of yourself. You can think too lowly of yourself.
Or there is the mixed arrogance. Can you tell me
(28:36):
a little bit about each of those?
S7 (28:39):
Yeah, I think that's a great verse to refer to. Um,
thinking too highly of yourself is arrogance. Um, you're getting
over your skis about how great you are. You know,
I grew up in singing How Great Thou Art. Uh,
but some people, it's more how great I art in
(28:59):
the slide. Okay, first of all, you're not great. Okay. But, uh,
the other flip side of that is kind of interesting, though, because, um,
there's a tendency to think how categorically awful you are.
And that's not any more true. Um, so, um, this
(29:23):
notion of not thinking more highly or lowly of yourself
is not something that we hear often enough. Um, you know,
we're just not prone to hear it taught that way. And, um, so, yeah,
we don't want to think more highly of ourselves in
marriage or outside of marriage than is accurate. But we
don't want to think more lowly of ourselves either.
S1 (29:46):
Exactly. So then how, if you look at what you
just said, how do you define mixed arrogance? What does
that mean?
S7 (29:53):
Well, it's just a combination of those two unhealthy forms
of pride. Uh, you're you're bouncing back and forth like
a pinball between bumpers. If you, on the one hand,
sometimes think you are God's gift to the planet, which
you are not. That was 2000 years ago. And, um,
(30:17):
you know, you can bounce over to. I'm just I
have no redeeming qualities. I'm just an awful, horrible, no
good nick. And that's untrue also. So you're you're just
not being truthful about who you really are in Christ
if you're going either direction.
S1 (30:35):
So here's the rub on this one. And we've talked
about the definition of humility. And you have a beautiful
quote in here from Thomas Merton about about humility, which
is important. Um, it's a condition of the heart. It
also has an exercise. And for a lot of people,
it's a big problem. You can't fake humility. What does
that look like, then, in a marriage?
S7 (30:57):
Well, uh, I wish you and I had about eight hours. Uh, that's, uh.
That's a multi-layered thing right there. Um, let me just, uh,
escape answering it by saying, I think one of the
wonderful things about marriage, if we can see it this way,
(31:20):
is that it's to be iron sharpening iron. And therefore,
if we can humble ourselves and go to our spouse
and ask for feedback on what they think are flaws
are and what they think our strengths are, I think
marriage is supposed to be again for growth and maturity. And,
(31:42):
you know, if we can turn to our spouse for
what we hope would be accurate input on both sides
of that coin, I think we're doing ourselves in the
marriage a favor. Uh, I want my wife, Holly, to
feel safe enough with me to come to me and say, hey,
what do you see about me that you don't think
(32:02):
I see about myself? And I want to do that
with her. I want us to be iron sharpening iron
in our day to day interactions and not shrink away
from it.
S1 (32:12):
Yeah. Wow. That's so good. Again, I want to remind
my friends that in the book, Real Marriage Made Simple,
Doctor Thurman has ten proven principles for thriving together. And again,
while he is a gifted counseling psychologist, I have to
tell you what I find so attractive about the work
that Doctor Thurman does is he's biblically based, as evidenced
by our conversation. So he understands I'm he can talk
(32:34):
young and Gestalt and Maslow until the cows come home
if he wants to. But we're talking about the final
answer here is the super glue of Jesus that holds
a marriage together and really provides us for the ability
to thrive as a couple as well. So what? What
do you mean? This is the next one, by the way.
So we've talked about owning your own stuff, giving more
than you take and humbling yourself. Then the next proven
(32:54):
principle is get your mind right now. This is not self-evident.
Break this down for us, please.
S7 (33:01):
Well, one of the themes of Scripture, as far as
I'm concerned, is be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
So another thing that I think we know is that
we all come into marriage with what I would call
a broken thinker. Uh, we are not playing the right
tapes in our head to some degree. Okay? So, uh,
(33:24):
when I wrote the Lives We Believe in the late 80s,
that's what that book was about. It's like, hey, let
me suggest 30 plus different faulty forms of thinking according
to what Scripture says is true. Uh, and then I
wrote a book a number of years ago called The
Lies Couples Believe, which is ten specific faulty forms of
(33:46):
thinking that couples fall into if they're not careful. So
everybody's got a broken thinker. Everybody needs the Holy Spirit's
help to be renewed in their minds. And that's a
lifelong process, because you never perfectly have the mind of
Christ in you. It's all the way to the grave
in terms of taking thoughts captive and learning to think
(34:09):
on what's true, lovely, pure and worthwhile. That's just, to me,
really hard work. The rest of our lives.
S1 (34:17):
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. And I was thinking how this
does tie so beautifully into your best selling book, The
Lies We Believe. One of the worst lines, and I've
said this on the air before, and I'm not taking
it back. I still stand by it. One of the
worst movie trivia lines ever spoken was Tom cruise when
he said, you complete me. That is a dangerous idea.
(34:38):
Tell me why that's so wrong.
S7 (34:41):
Well, um. Uh, it's got about 14 things wrong with it.
One of them is you're you're kind of putting your
self in their hands, and it doesn't belong there. You know,
it's not anybody's job to complete you. Plus, they can't,
(35:02):
you know, you have to work on becoming whole yourself. Now,
that's not to say that we shouldn't turn to a
spouse for their love and their help along the way
in terms of growing and maturing. But this notion of,
you know, it's even in the dating world of there's
(35:23):
one person out there that's the the one for me
and only one. And it's like, you know, that's a
pipe dream. And let's let's knock it off and get real. And,
you know, just look for who God might want out
of the pool of people that are available. Who might
God be more than happy for us to marry? And,
(35:45):
you know, we can work out things from there.
S1 (35:48):
Yeah. Wow. So I we could spend the rest of
the hour just talking about these lies that people hear
over and over and over again, the demand that my
spouse should be just like me, or my spouse should
accept me just the way I am, you know? For
the believer, thank you, Lord, for not accepting me just
the way I am. Thank you for conforming and transforming
(36:08):
me to the image of Christ. Thank you for reminding
me you're the potter, I'm the clay and that you
are applying pressure and molding and shaping me to be
the vessel you want me to be. So if that's
what Christ is doing to me, why would I think
it's like, here, Craig, this is it. Take it or
leave it. I mean, that just doesn't align itself with
the the context and the principles of Scripture as well.
So let me take a break. This hour is going
(36:30):
far too quickly. There are a lot of things that
are wonderful in this book. It's called real Marriage Made Simple,
Proven Principles for Thriving Together. I also have a link
to Doctor Thurman's website, all of that on the information
page in the market with Janet Parshall. Click the red box.
It'll take you there back after this. Conversation, isn't it?
(36:55):
I mean, marriage is so tremendously important to the heart
of God. If you want to know the character of God,
read His word. So there it is, at the very
beginning of those 66 books that don't contain the Word
of God, but they are the Word of God. He
establishes after creation what does he do? He establishes marriage
to find his one man, one woman, and he puts
that union together, that sacred union that is about, oh,
(37:18):
so much more than procreation and companionship. It is the
profundity of recognizing how much Christ loves us, how he
is the bridegroom. We as the believers are the bride.
I mean, the deep, rich theology and the idea of
marriage is really it cannot be ignored. But it also
means that it's going to be an institution that the
(37:38):
enemy is going to go after. So when we're self-centered,
when it's me first, when you're the problem, when I'm
not being kind to you and I'm not loving you
the way I'm supposed to love you, I'm not replicating
Christ in the way I interact with you. Marriage is
not only don't thrive, they barely survive. And that's why
the divorce rate goes through the roof. And I wish
I could tell you that the church was immune, but
it's not. Which is why conversations like this with Doctor
(38:01):
Chris Thurman are so tremendously important and timely. Doctor Thurman, again,
is a psychologist and author, popular speaker. He's the author
of many, many books. He's the best selling author of
the book The Lies We Believe. And today, the book
we're talking about is Real Marriage Made simple, proven principles
for thriving together. Now again, this is not a fireside chat.
Or is it a book report? So there's so much
(38:22):
in here. And I told you there are ten principles
we've touched on four, but there's a whole lot more.
I want to just go back to something we talked
about earlier, and that is this idea of compassion. It's,
you know, I'm in Washington, so we talk a lot
about self-evident truths, right? It's right there in our guiding documents.
And one would think that the idea of being compassionate
toward your spouse would be a self-evident truth. But, um,
(38:44):
I hear a multiplicity of pop songs going through my
head right now about not loving you anymore. And maybe
you have to tell us, Chris, is there a distinction
between compassion and love? Can you have one without the other?
And if you've lost that loving feeling, can you put
at least compassion back in your marriage again?
S7 (39:04):
Uh, you know, Janet, I could be wrong on this,
but I think love and compassion have to go hand
in hand. Mhm. Uh, I don't think, uh, God's agape
love for us is an incredibly compassionate love. Uh, you know,
it talks a lot about how the Lord looked across
the crowd and had compassion, uh, for them. So, um,
(39:28):
to me, they are inextricably tied together. Um, and so
when I see a couple that doesn't have compassion for
each other, I know that there is some degree of
a hardness of heart in play. And that's pretty deadly to, uh, any,
any marriage.
S1 (39:48):
So on that note, you're a psychologist, but, you know,
there's a little bit of that in what I do
as well, because I hear from so many people who
will talk about their marriages as being dull, dead, no affection,
no intimacy whatsoever. And we're sticking it out and sticking
it through because, oh, you know, we know that no
matter what, we're till death do us part. And it
(40:08):
would be a grievous sin if we decided to file
for divorce. So there are a lot of miserable people
in marriages in the church. And I know that this
is a little bit outside the realm of what this
particular book talks about, but I would be remiss not
to tap into the richness of your experience and your
mind on this. If you're in a place where there's
nothing but coldness in your marriage because you're not even
going to be interested in these proven principles if you
(40:30):
don't want to thrive because you're just gritting your teeth
and experiencing it until the Lord calls one of the
two of you home, how do you rekindle that again?
Because the love, as we get older, in truth, and
you and I know this is older married people, it's
a different kind of a love. It's a richer, better, broader,
more significant kind of love. When you had the butterflies,
when you started your relationship together. But if it's gone,
(40:51):
how do you get it back?
S7 (40:53):
Well, I make a distinction with my clients between three
kinds of love arrows, which is sexual longing for somebody, philia,
which is emotional fondness for somebody, and agape, which from
my perspective is an act of will aimed at fostering growth.
(41:16):
So what I try to do to rekindle people's love
for each other is, would you guys be willing to
consider working on agape with each other? Would you be
willing to keep working on fostering each other's growth, and
let that pull the philia and the eros along with it?
(41:39):
Does that make any sense?
S1 (41:40):
Oh, it makes perfect sense to people to whom you
have shared that counsel. Have you gotten positive results? In
other words, I guess I'm asking simply, does that work?
S7 (41:50):
Well, it does if we. I'm kind of sports oriented.
It does if we play ball. Yeah. You know, it's like, okay,
you know, if you're going to tell God, you're not
going to comply with his command to love one another,
which is agape. Uh, then, you know, you reap what
(42:10):
you sow, and you can't be expecting that the relationship's
going to be all that good. So, um, I kind
of put my clients on the hook for, you know,
you've got to roll up your sleeves and be part
of the solution, not part of the problem. Uh, kind
of thing. So.
S1 (42:26):
Yeah. Absolutely. You do something wonderful. And I always love
it when authors do this, because it tells me they have,
at their core, a teacher's heart. The back part of
the book is really a workbook. Tell me how this works.
S7 (42:39):
Well, I'm a real believer in be doers of the
word and not hearers only. Uh, to me it's really
important to gain knowledge and understanding. But if you don't
metaphorically put it out there on the playing field. It's
really not going to do you much good, right? So
I push people, hey, I want to, you know, I'm
real homework oriented in my office. I really believe in that.
(43:04):
And so I push people pretty hard. You know, I've
got a real teacher in me. I'm. I'm more teacher
than I am counselor. Psychotherapist. So I just get them
working pretty hard in that way.
S1 (43:16):
Why am I not surprised that it really, at your core,
you are a teacher that comes through so loud and
clear in the book. In the minute I have left. Chris,
talk to me about the power of the word perseverance
and how it applies to this conversation.
S7 (43:29):
Well, it's real easy to grow weary, right? Um, marriage
is so incredibly hard. So it's real easy to metaphorically
take your hand off the plow and just say, you know,
I'm just not going to continue to work this hard
on something. Uh, so I try to talk about the
importance of perseverance, what they call as grit in the
(43:51):
secular world, and that you have to have grit. You
got to have stick to itiveness. You got to make
a commitment to go all in. And anything less than
that is not going to be sufficient.
S1 (44:03):
What a joy it is to hear you use the
word sticktuitiveness. It made me think of my dad, who
used that phrase all the time when an important value
that is. Chris, let me get people to my information
page so they can read this book. And remember, I
did four of the ten and I flew over the
four that we did talk about. There is a wealth
of information, and I also wanted you to know there's
a workbook in the back. So there's really a chance
(44:24):
for the two of you around your kitchen table with
a cup of coffee to walk through this as a couple,
to be of one mind, one heart. Wanting to serve Jesus,
seeing him as the unseen guest at that breakfast table.
As you're honoring him through your marriage, go to In
the Market with Janet Parshall. Click on the red box.
It says Program Details and audio. It'll take you to
the website. There's the book. Click on through to get
(44:44):
your copy. Chris, thank you so much for great conversation.
See you next time, friends.
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