July 8, 2025 • 44 mins
We tend to have pockets of our lives dominated by the flesh and driven by cultural wisdom. For many, sexuality is one of those pockets. Christians are confused about God’s views on sex and intimacy. In today’s culture, we struggle to grasp the meaning or purpose of our sexuality. We don't know how to make sense of our temptation, shame, brokenness, longings, or desires. What is more, Christian churches and families are divided in the nuances of sexuality, neglecting Jesus’ most important call to be unified as His body. Dr. Juli Slattery will join us to bring her years of experience, biblical knowledge, and passion for the Lord in applying the call of Christians to surrender their views, questions, and pain to the God who changes everything.
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S1 (00:00):
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the Market with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:52):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:57):
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S6 (01:59):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:18):
Hi, friends.
S1 (02:19):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am
thrilled we are going to spend the hour together. Mom
and dad, I want to give you the heads up
because I care for you. This is an age appropriate
conversation because we are going to talk about sexuality. Wait.
Don't leave. Come back into the room. This is an
important topic because God is in this conversation. In fact,
it really is all about God. But I just want
(02:40):
you to know that this might spark some conversations that,
around your kitchen table, is not ready for your family
to have. So just know, because I love you. We're
going to talk about sexuality this hour, but just think
about that. I mean sexuality and God. Mm. For a
lot of people it's like, ooh, how can you put
those two in the same conversation? Well, I'll tell you what.
By the time we're done this hour, you're going to
(03:01):
understand that you really can't talk about the one without
talking about the other. And that's a good thing. That's
not a bad thing at all. In fact, Doctor Julie
Slattery is going to be with us all hour. I'm
going to take a minute to read her biography, because
I think it's germane to how I want to start
this conversation. So first and foremost, she's a clinical psychologist.
She's an author, she's a speaker. She's the president and
co-founder of Authentic Intimacy. She got her college degree at Wheaton.
(03:24):
Then she got an M.A. in psychology from Biola. Then
she got an M.S. and a doctorate in clinical psychology
from Florida Institute of Technology. But significantly, from 2008 to 2012,
she served at focus on the family. She was writing,
she was teaching. She co-hosts the focus on the family broadcast.
But in 2012, the Lord drew her to another place.
(03:46):
She left focus to start Authentic Intimacy, which is a
ministry devoted to reclaiming God's design for sexuality. And then
in 2020, Julie John launched Sexual Discipleship. That's a platform
that's designed to help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues and questions. Hello.
Do you think we need that at all these days?
But it's gospel centered truth. Julie is the author of
(04:08):
13 books and the host of the weekly podcast Java
with Julie. Just love that name. And we are going
to talk about her brand new book today called Surrendered
Sexuality How Knowing Christ Changes Everything, or rather, how Knowing
Jesus Changes Everything. I want to have the full title
correctly because it's right there in my information page, and
I don't want it to be if I give you
(04:29):
the wrong title, a stumbling block to your getting this book,
because it really is eye opening. It's profoundly important and
it changes everything about what we think about sexuality. So Julie,
the warmest of welcomes always, always, always love talking to you.
And I have to ask you what happened in your
Pilgrim's Progress, that in 2012, when you were serving in
(04:49):
Colorado Springs, as so many of those different slots that
I just talked about, but you really felt this tug
in your heart to start authentic intimacy. Tell me what
was going on in your life personally, to leave that
one ministry and start another one, specifically dealing with God's
design for sexuality?
S7 (05:07):
Yeah, it certainly had to be something big, Janet, because
I'm I'm no brave person. That's like, oh, I want
to tackle this topic. So first, thank you so much
for having me on. I always look forward to our
conversations and have so much respect for your work. Um, yeah.
That season I God just really took me through about
maybe 9 or 10 months of personally seeking him in
(05:29):
ways that I never had, just a real spiritual unrest
that caused me to withdraw from daily activities and really
spend time pursuing him. And it was through the course
of that that he burdened my heart for this topic
of sexuality. And, um, there's no personal connection to it.
It was just he literally burdened my heart, my heart,
(05:52):
like I physically had a pain in my chest for months. Um, just, um.
And he was bringing me families and women, you know,
that were struggling with different sexual issues and showing me
that we've really been silent on these topics, or at best,
maybe just addressing it from a 30,000 foot view, and
(06:13):
that his heart was really with people who are crying
out to him, you know, God, help me, help me
with this pain. Help me with my loneliness. Give me
wisdom for the things I'm walking through or a loved
one is walking through. So that's really what happened. And
it was just taking one step of obedience after the
other to get to the place where we are today.
S1 (06:35):
Wow, I'm so glad I asked that question for a
multiplicity of reasons, not the least of which is it's
a reminder that when the Lord really with clarity, tells
you where to go, and so presses into you that
the only place you find peace is in the center
of his will, regardless of where it is that takes you.
So I'm so glad that you shared that. But number two,
in the book you refer to yourself as an introvert.
And just now you said that you're not a courageous person. Um,
(06:58):
I don't know. You know, I've been doing radio since
Marconi put out his first, uh, radio. So. Okay, so
I there are decades where on Christian radio, you know,
more would have said the word sex or sexuality than
anything else under the sun that that was verboten, that
we didn't talk about it. And it goes to exactly
what you were just referring to, which is this idea
that rather than understand that God is all over this conversation,
(07:22):
as you write about with such eloquence in surrendered sexuality,
that we should have been talking about it, but we
didn't we? I'm going to use a cultural term, or
we've closeted this conversation and we've done it to our
own detriment. So here's a why question. Typical firstborn. Why
have we been so reticent to talk about this? And
where has our spiritual blindness been on this topic, where
(07:43):
we failed to see that God is central to the
conversation about sexuality?
S7 (07:48):
Yeah, boy, there's so many different ways of answering that
from the spiritual realm that we can't see that the
enemy is happy for the church to be silent on this,
so that the world can have the final say. And
there's the shame that many of us associate with sexuality,
whether that's things that we struggle with, things that we've experienced,
(08:09):
or just the nakedness that sexuality represents. Um, so that's
a very real thing. And then, you know, you can
look historically at the Victorian era era and just some
of the work that people like Nancy Pearcey have done,
helping us understand how we separated the physical from the
spiritual and got confused about all of that with dualism. Um,
(08:32):
so there's lots of different ways to explain it, but
I think all of us really have grown up with
a tradition now that the church doesn't talk about this historically,
we don't know how to. It wasn't addressed in Seminaries.
Pastors aren't equipped. Families aren't equipped. And so I think
everybody sort of feels like in these days where you
(08:53):
have to talk about it, we're trailblazing because we don't
have mentors and role models for how to do this
in a way that's integrated with a relationship with Jesus
and the truth that the gospel brings.
S1 (09:07):
What a superb answer. And so we get to spend
the hour with a trailblazer, somebody who said, no, now
we're going to talk about this and understand that God
is all over this issue. And you read that with
such clarity in her brand new book, Surrendered Sexuality How
Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. There it is, Jesus and the
word sexuality in the same title of the book. We're
(09:28):
just getting started. Doctor Julie Schlatter is our guest for
the entire hour. And I hope you're going to find
a cup of encouragement handed to you this hour, so
stick around. Got a lot to talk about back after this.
(09:56):
Street evangelist Ray comfort has spent decades pointing people to Jesus,
and I want you to do the same. That's why
I've chosen why Jesus is this month's truth tool. Ray
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(10:16):
7758 or go to. In the market with Janet Parshall.
We have the privilege of spending the hour with the doctor,
Julie Slattery. She is the co-founder and president of Authentic Intimacy.
In 2020, she also launched Sexual Discipleship. Com. She's a
prolific author, and her latest book is the core of
(10:36):
our conversation today. Surrendered Sexuality How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. Julie,
early on in the book you write this, you said
some people have asked me what I mean by sexuality. Sexuality. Typically,
we think of sexuality as the same thing as sex.
Sexuality is the aspect of our humanity that causes us
to desire intimate connections with others. And then you say
(10:57):
it means far more than the act of sex. I
think that's very important for us to start there, because
I think in the minds and hearts of our listeners,
they will juxtaposition sex and sexuality back and forth. If
we don't offer some clarity on why sexuality is oh
so much bigger than sex, talk to me about that.
S7 (11:16):
Yeah. You know, when we just think of sexuality as
a behavior, it limits our conversation. So, for example, you
think about teenagers today or even 11 or 12 year
olds who are being sexualized by our culture and they're
forming opinions on their sexuality. They're declaring things like gender
preference or sexual orientation, and they've never had any kind
(11:40):
of sexual contact. And so we have to understand that
our sexuality is an aspect of our humanity. It's not
just something that we do, it's a part of how
we are created by God. And so the conversation is
so much broader and so much deeper than just telling
people what they should be doing, behavior with their behavior,
(12:00):
but really understanding the aspect of their humanity.
S1 (12:04):
Mhm. Yeah. Exactly right. You say also that sexuality is
never a neutral issue in our relationship with God. Again,
for a whole lot of people they're grabbing the smelling
salts because some of these thoughts are so foreign to
what they thought so far. So how again, is God
right in the middle of this whole conversation of sexuality?
S7 (12:22):
Yeah, Janet, this is really my passion for the ministry
I do and why I wrote this book, because I've
seen over the last 15 years that sexuality for many,
many Christians is a barrier to their relationship with God.
And I would also say with unbelievers, for a lot
of people, the reason they can't trust God is a
(12:42):
sexual reason. It's because I can't believe a loving God
would limit our sexual activity. Or who could marry whom. Um.
Or I can't believe a loving God would let the
trauma happen to me. That happened when I was five. Um,
so when we really pull back what we're talking about
with sexuality, we're not just, again, talking about rules and behaviors.
(13:04):
We're talking about a deeply spiritual issue and people are
grappling with, um, how could a loving God say, I
have to stay in a marriage that is unsatisfying? And
so I really have found that Satan will use this
good gift of our sexuality to be a barrier to
us knowing intimacy with God. It could be shame of
I don't feel worthy to pursue God or experience his love.
(13:28):
It can be anger. It can be doubt. But when
we begin to surrender this area and actually use the
pain points as an invitation to pursue God more in depth,
We find that it becomes the ground of intimacy, not
just in our personal relationships, but in our relationship with God.
S1 (13:46):
Well, there's so much I want to unpack and what
you just said. So let me start first with this
idea that God is central to this conversation. What happens?
And you go into great depth in the book. So
let me just ask you this as sort of a
prelude to a deeper part of our conversation later on.
But for people to say, wait a minute, if I'm
going to practice surrendered sexuality, and that's not just the
(14:07):
title of the book, it is a volitional choice to
do that. There's a presupposition there, and that is that
I have to trust God. Well, I got a trust problem,
I was abused, I've got shame in my life. I've
been hurt by people. I don't have a problem. I
have a problem trusting people on a horizontal level. Now
you're asking me to trust God on a vertical level.
Trust is not my thing. I just rather pull in
(14:28):
and just try to put one foot in front of
the other, thereby giving evidence to the fact that they
have anything but the abundant life that we've been promised.
So what happens if trust has been violated in your life,
how can you begin to trust a God when mortals
have broken that trust?
S7 (14:43):
Yeah, boy, I think that's such a great question. And
there are a lot of Christians who don't articulate the
fact that they're even asking that question. And so, you know,
that's the point of these conversations, is there's all this
stuff underneath the surface that makes you feel like God
doesn't care about me, or I can't experience the fullness
of life that he promises. And it's nebulous because we
(15:06):
have never said it out loud. There's so many men
and women who have never said out loud. In my
heart of hearts, I don't know if I can trust
God because of this horrible thing that happened to me
or in my heart of hearts. I don't know if
I can trust God because I have a gay son
and I don't know that God loves him, or I
feel torn between choosing between God and somebody that I
(15:28):
care about. And so the purpose of sort of the
discipleship journey really begins with God is not afraid of
those questions? Let's get them out in the open. You know,
Christian leaders should not be afraid of those questions because
that curiosity actually opens up. Okay. Well, let's press into
what it looks like to take that pain, to take
(15:49):
that doubt, to take that tension and bring it before
the presence of God, bring it before the wisdom of
Scripture and the Holy Spirit, and see what he says
instead of just shutting down and compartmentalizing this part of
our life.
S1 (16:04):
Wow. You make this statement in the book and it's
so beautiful it stands alone. But I really want you
to talk to us a little more about it. You
say that surrender is not God's demand on your life,
but rather his invitation to you. Surrender isn't ultimately about
what we let go of, but about how much of
God we are ready to embrace. Boy, we use the
(16:24):
word courage earlier. This is this is an act of courage,
is it not? Particularly if there's brokenness in your life
in this area?
S7 (16:31):
Yeah, 100% it is. You know, the call of any
follower of Christ is to live an integrated life. You know,
Jesus said, the greatest commandment is that you love the
Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul,
with all your strength. You know, Paul said in Romans
chapter 12, you know, offer yourselves as living sacrifices. So
it's an integrated life of Jesus owns everything. Everything is
(16:55):
surrendered to him. But in reality, we live very compartmentalized lives.
And there are pieces of our, our humanity that we're like, okay,
I'm I'm okay with trusting God with this, but not
with this area. And for a lot of people, that
area is sexuality. But once it ends up happening is
when we have unsurrendered areas of our hearts, there's strongholds
(17:19):
and there's lies in that stronghold, and ultimately it's the
enemy's power that begins to rule us. And so it's
not freedom at all. It's really captivity.
S1 (17:28):
Mm. Wow. I've told you this was going to be
an hour of encouragement, and you're already starting to think
through in your own life. Some of the issues you're
dealing with when it comes to your sexuality. Good, because
there's so much more to discuss. Surrendered sexuality. How knowing
Jesus changes everything. Doctor Julie Slattery, our guest. More after this.
(17:54):
Surrendered sexuality. It's the brand new book by Doctor Julie Slattery.
The subtitle says it all How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything.
I love the way that you take a look at
so many aspects of surrendering the different ways in which
we must surrender if we're going to have this total,
integrated relationship with God when it comes to the area
of sexuality. I was so glad that near the top
(18:16):
of the list was the idea of identity. Julie, I've
thought about this so much, particularly with this tsunami of
ideology known as transgenderism. If you can get past the
drag queens and the library at its core, this is
an issue of identity and absolute, palpable brokenness. Because if
you think that changing the outside is going to give
you definition on the inside, that is an exercise in
(18:39):
futility and it's going to cause nothing but further pain,
particularly if you move on to the areas of having surgery.
And the hole in the heart still resides there. But
our identity is very, very, very much wound up into
our sexuality, which is why I think if Christians are
paying attention, whenever we talk about this topic on this program,
we always talk about the fact that at its core,
this is a spiritual issue. So talk to me about
(19:01):
our identity, because the Bible gives us a plethora of
verses that tells us that we are made new in Christ.
You know, I no longer live, yet Christ lives in me.
I mean, in him. I live and move and have
my being. The list goes on and on and on
and on. And yet, in the midst of all of
that is this issue of sexuality tied to our identity?
Talk to me about that.
S7 (19:21):
Yeah. Janet, you mentioned how identity plays into the transgender movement,
but I actually believe it plays into all areas of
sexuality like it impacts every single one of us. And
so when we think about the culture that we live in,
you know very well, and you've had so many guests
that talk about this. We live in a postmodern culture
(19:42):
that essentially says there's nothing in terms of absolute truths
that help me make sense of my world. And so
each one of us is kind of tasked with, I
have to come up with my own reality, my own
sense of purpose for life, my own sense of right
and wrong. And so we get statements that we say
to each other like, follow your heart or you do you,
(20:04):
you know, that's from a postmodern framework of I have
to create my own happiness and sense of self. And
so 100% absolutely, that plays into what we're seeing with
the LGBTQ movement and the rise of all that. But
I also think it's really playing into even our view
of why we get married. Like, I have to find
(20:25):
the person who completes me, who makes me happy. Another
way identity really plays into this is sort of the
legalism of shame and performance. And we see this a
lot in the church around sexuality that people identify themselves
based on if they're pure or impure, whether they struggle
or don't struggle. Instead of saying, no, you know, the
(20:47):
most important thing about me is that I am redeemed,
that I am in Christ, and I bear the righteousness
of Christ. And so I begin to orient my life
based on what Scripture says about my worth, my relationship
with Christ, the fact that I am forgiven and free,
and now I can live with integrity and pursue integrity
(21:09):
because of who I am, not make assumptions about who
I am based on how I'm living. And so I
really believe that whenever we talk about sexuality, this is
the foundational issue for Christians, whether it's around conversations of marriage, pornography, dating, LGBT. Um,
you know, dealing with the past. It all comes down
(21:31):
to the most important thing about me has to be
that I am redeemed in Christ. I'm a son or
daughter of the King.
S1 (21:39):
Amen. So much. Let me so many layers. Let me
just pull a couple of them out. You know, this
idea of definition, identity, as you rightfully said, is really
the vast expanse of sexuality. I am a wife is
an identifier, right? That's tied into the idea of marriage.
But let me go to some of the aspects of definition.
So if you were abused, you can identify yourself. And
(22:02):
there'd be some justification in this to say I'm a victim,
but is that where God wants you to stay? So
if we take the shame or the abuse or the
damage that was done to us, and we stop there
and allow that to be our moniker, then how a
we don't understand who God is because it was what's
done to us or what we need to do, rather
than what he has done for us. You know, it's
(22:24):
this 50 cent theological term, this imputed righteousness. What does
that really mean in its application in integrated Christianity? If
we don't understand what that means, it really in the end,
newsflash has nothing to do with us and everything to
do with him.
S7 (22:39):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, to have been
a victim, to be a wife, to be a husband,
to be same sex attracted, you know, all of these
things are descriptors of what we experience here in the world.
And they're true. They're real. But what Christ calls us
to do is to understand every other descriptor under the
(23:02):
headship of who Jesus is, and that all of it
has to be viewed through that lens. And so it
doesn't make it necessarily untrue or that those things don't exist,
but they're framed from the perspective of, you know, if
you want to know what Jesus says about you, read
Ephesians one and two. Uh, you know Paul so eloquently
(23:24):
describes things that if we just sat in them that
we're forgiven, we're adopted. We are chosen as holy and
righteous and blameless. Our sins are forgiven, that we are
seated with Christ in God in the heavenly realms. You
know that we have the same power within us through
(23:45):
the Holy Spirit that God used when he raised Jesus
from the dead. And when we look at every other
description of how we understand ourselves in light of that
and those things again are still true. But like Paul said,
they they're nothing compared to knowing Christ and how Christ
is transforming me. And so the journey of maturity has
(24:06):
to be not just I want to get rid of
a struggle, but I really want to grow into believing
and living out what the Bible says about who I am.
S5 (24:17):
Oh.
S1 (24:18):
Oh, this hour is going far too quickly. There's so
much in this book. Are you beginning to radically rethink
this concept of sexuality? That God is in the center
of all of this? There's so much in Doctor Julie
Slattery's brand new book, Surrendered Sexuality, and the subtitle, How
Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. I want to go to the
core of that subtitle when we return, because that's really
(24:40):
the linchpin in all of this. Again, I've got a
link on my website not only to authentic intimacy, but
also to the book, so that you can click on through.
By the way, shout out for the home team, published
by Moody Publishers back after this. Our team of partial
partners is growing, and I love communicating behind the scenes
(25:02):
with this special group of friends who are devoted to
giving a monthly gift in the market. Our partial partners
receive private emails direct from me on issues we don't
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a partial partner? Call Janet, 58, or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. If you are just joining us,
(25:26):
pull up a chair. You're so welcome at the table
and I want to encourage you. We're having a fabulous
conversation with Doctor Julie Slattery. And you know what? I
love the technology of the 21st century. You didn't miss
a minute. Just go to where you find your favorite
podcast and download in the market with Janet Parshall. Put
in today's date and you'll get the entirety of this
precious conversation about surrendered sexuality. That's the title of Julie's
(25:49):
brand new book, How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. Just a
quick fly over again. Julie is a clinical psychologist and author,
a speaker, president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy. In 2020,
she launched Sexual Discipleship Comm, that's a platform designed to
help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues and questions with gospel
centered truth. She's the author of 13 books. Now it's
(26:11):
14 with today's book that we're talking about and the
host of the weekly podcast, Java with Julie. So I
underline and put exclamation points you put in italics in
the book, Julie. But I underlined it even more because
you said I never found freedom by looking in. That's
a stunning statement in and of itself as it stands alone,
but it's even more impactful for my perspective coming from
a clinical psychologist, because I have a dozen more. Let
(26:34):
me amend that number. I have a gazillion books written
by secular authors that I am asked to review all
the time, that deal with this idea that the solutions
can be found by looking in. Now, I'm a great
fan of doing personal introspection. I think we need to
do that in inventory. I want to keep a short
record of my sins, so I can't do that without
having to do some introspection. But you point out that
(26:55):
things began to change in your life when you changed
your focus to knowing God, not just knowing about him,
but truly knowing him. Now I find that fascinatingly powerful.
Your story is not unlike mine. Raised in a Christian home,
came to faith in Christ. Sundays, Wednesdays, church, camp, you
name it, there for the rest of our lives. I
get it, all of that. But there is such a
(27:17):
distinction between being immersed in a Christian culture and knowing
of God, rather than knowing him intimately and personally. How does.
Just as an example, let me ask this at the
35,000 foot, if we really knew God, just didn't know
about him, but really knew him, how would knowing God
impact issues like trust and intimacy and shame?
S7 (27:40):
Oh man, it would. It would completely change them. Um,
you can't trust somebody that you don't know. And I
think there are a lot of Christians who have salvation
in Christ that can't fully trust Jesus because they don't
know him. Um, they know him for salvation, but they
(28:01):
they don't know what it is to abide in him.
Like to experience his presence. I think we see a
great example of this in the book of Job. Um,
the calamities that job encountered led to all these real
questions about the goodness of God and Job standing before
God and his counselors were kind of debating all these questions,
(28:23):
but ultimately job kept saying, I want to talk to
the creator like I want to ask him. I don't
want your opinion. I need to know what he says.
And when the Lord spoke to job out of the whirlwind,
job just said, I take all my questions back. Like
I had no idea that you were so powerful. And
(28:45):
he said my ears had heard of you, but now
my eyes have seen you. And I was just like
you described. Raised in a Christian home, gave my life
to Christ as a child, grew in my faith, knew
the scriptures, was in ministry, but don't. I don't think
I really could say my ears had heard of you,
but now my eyes have seen you. Until about 15
(29:08):
years ago, and at the beginning of the show, you
asked me what led to me starting this ministry. And
it really was when the Lord called me to know him,
to know him personally. And it changed. It has changed
everything in my life. And, uh, and as I see
person after person after person struggle with these sexual issues.
(29:30):
My heart is to take that sexual issue in question
and actually let that be the thing that causes them
to actually seek God in such a way that they
know him, not just the Scripture and the and the rules,
but know the God that the scriptures point to. And
so Paul said that, you know, he said, I, I
(29:51):
consider everything I was as rubbish compared to the power
of knowing Christ. Um, and nobody can give you that
second hand. You have to go on that journey yourself.
And it truly does change everything.
S1 (30:06):
Yeah. So let me linger on this. And again, remember,
the core of our conversation is sexuality. But again, out
of that comes this idea of identity, and out of
that comes the idea. These are like Russian nesting dolls.
Out of that comes the reality that our identity is
found in him. Well, how can we have a right
identity if we don't know who he is? So here's
a question. Pragmatic and God is a very practical God.
(30:29):
So how does one go about knowing God? Does it
mean that you have to do every Bible study co-author
ever wrote, and then you'll know who he is? So
how does one know? You give three practical examples of
things that we can do. I'll tell you in my life, Julie,
I don't know if it happened in yours, but and
I you don't want to sign up for this class.
But you mentioned job earlier, the way in which I
got to know him more deeply and more intimately was
(30:51):
in the valleys, in the trials, in the refiner's fire.
You know, nobody signs up for that. But I'll tell
you what. Let me be the first at the front
of the line to say, I don't ever want to
be who I was before I went in the fire,
because I know so much more about him than what
I did before I went in the fire. But that's
one way to know. But again, nobody, nobody wants to
audit that class. So how do we really and truly
(31:13):
get to know him?
S7 (31:15):
Yeah. So what the trials usually do is they strip
away everything that's prompting, prompting us up. I'm the friendships,
you know, they're good, but they're really not going to
meet you in the hardest of times. Even the scriptures
can fall flat. And there's this uneasiness of I just
have to. I have to be face to face with him.
(31:37):
My surroundings are not enough. I need him. And we
can do that in trials, certainly. But we also can
do it apart from trials. And I think it begins,
you know, Jesus said, or the Lord said, you know,
you will find me when you seek me with your
whole heart. And I think it was A.W. Tozer I read,
who said, you have exactly as much of the Holy
(32:00):
Spirit as you really want. And, um, reading some of
those great writers that call us to deeper places have
been has been really formational and me knowing God like
reading the words of men and women who had this
palpable intimacy with God challenges me. And so that's one
(32:20):
way I think worship has been really powerful, not just prayer.
Prayer is powerful, but but sitting in the presence of God,
reflecting on who he is, being silent before him sometimes
fosters a deeper intimacy than when we go to him
with just lots of words. But ultimately, God is the
(32:41):
one who reveals himself to us. He's the one who
opens our hearts to him. And I really believe and
have seen that when we just cry out as feeble
as we can, God, I want that. Like I've been
in the church for decades and I. I don't feel
like I know you like that. Would you show me yourself?
I want to know you. He may not answer tomorrow,
(33:04):
but he seals that question and takes you on a journey.
And it's different for all of us, of truly knowing
the heart of God in such a way that it's transformative.
S1 (33:15):
Yeah. Oh boy, I could not agree more. So let
me talk about the idea that so often when you
talk about sexuality and Christianity in the same breath, the
first thing that pops up is rigidity and rules. Why
would I want to follow a God who gives me
a bunch of rules, and who really, at its core,
I see him as a cosmic killjoy. I mean, I've
got all the world telling me if it feels good,
(33:36):
do it. Let it all hang out. Let's have starter marriages,
let's have polyamory. Let's have just fill in the blank.
Whatever your tastes are sexually, let it go because that's
who you are, and that's how you should be made.
And enjoy yourself. And then you've got the church, and
the church goes, don't don't can't can't don't, don't. Well,
you know, I keep having to remind myself it wasn't
(33:58):
MTV that came up with the idea of sex. It
was God in a place of perfection. Let that sink in.
Why do we forget that it was God who was
the author of sexual communication, therefore also the author of
our sexuality? Talk to me about that.
S7 (34:14):
Yeah, boy, our sexuality has been so compartmentalized from God
that people really have a hard time accepting that. That
he's the one who formed us. You know, even when
you read Psalm 139, that beautiful Psalm of David saying,
you know, he formed me in my mother's womb. He
knows my innermost thoughts. Like all of this, we we say,
(34:38):
that's beautiful, but now apply it to even your sexuality.
And that that God formed David as a male, his
male genitalia and hormones. And when we apply it to
our sexuality, that God knows my fantasies and my lustful thoughts,
he knows the things that I'm ashamed of. We start
to get really uncomfortable. And so some of it is
(35:00):
pushing into that discomfort and say, why am I so
uncomfortable with that? Do I really believe that God created
my sexuality and he created it for a purpose? Um,
and again, that's a journey for most Christians are uncomfortable
when they first hear that. But if they press into
that and say, no, like, I really want to know.
I want to know the goodness of God. I want
(35:22):
to experience redemption and healing. I don't want to think
like the world does. He really does meet us in
those desires and in that question. And so I think
it is tearing down that kind of false compartmentalization that
a lot of us have between God and our sexuality.
S1 (35:41):
Yeah. And if we if we adhere to a strict
set of rules, rather than having a relationship with a
God that we know and has made himself known to us.
Isn't that a prescription for frustration? Because I'm always going
to fail. I'm never going to meet the standard, and
then I'm ashamed. And then I think, well, I'm beyond
the pale of Calvary, and I've missed his grace because
I am repetitive in my sin in this particular area.
(36:03):
I mean, it becomes cyclical, does it not? Now you're
hearing the music, and I know you're going to have
an answer that is worth hearing. So if you don't mind, Julie,
answer it on the other side. But it's this idea
that it really is, again, a concentric circles of impact.
It seems to me, with what happens when we think
this is all about adherence to a set of rules,
rather than the relationship we have with the living God, who,
(36:26):
as you just referred to before, knit us together fearfully, wonderfully,
including the entirety of our sexuality. The book is called
Surrendered Sexuality How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. Bet you won't
hear this conversation in the world. But boy, what a conversation.
It needs to be in the marketplace of ideas back
after this. Doctor Julie Slattery is with us a clinical psychologist, author, speaker,
(36:57):
president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy and the author of
the book. We've been discussing all our surrendered sexuality how
knowing Jesus changes everything. So I want to go back
to this idea of the rigidity of rules as opposed
to relationship. And no, I didn't stay up all night
trying to come up with that alliteration. It just kind
of works nicely. But I think for a whole lot
of Christians, it really is about making sure that you
(37:20):
adhere to a set of rules, and if you do,
then you quote pure and obedient. But you say in
the book, you can keep all the rules about biblical
sexuality and still have a heart that is far from
God's intentions in this area of your life. Talk to
me about that.
S7 (37:36):
Yeah, boy, this is something that I have learned over
the years. Um, there's so much as we've been discussing
underneath our sexuality. There's the shame we carry. There's the
wounds we have from our past. The hurts, the fears,
all of it. And when you only hear that honoring
God with your sexuality means don't look at porn. Don't
(37:58):
sleep with somebody outside of marriage. You can have all
those things still festering. You can doubt the goodness of God.
You can follow the rules just because you're supposed to
and you're afraid of hell, but you never experience what
it is to connect with God as your father, to
connect with who Jesus is as our healer, and to
(38:19):
connect with the fact that Jesus came to set us free.
And so there are a lot of Christians who would
talk about the rules, um, but really still kind of
have almost a hypocritical approach to, um, you know, as
long as you look good on the outside, then you're good,
even if your heart is hard towards the Lord, even
(38:40):
if you you have all this pain that's been not
surrendered to him. And so I think that's even really
key when we talk about discipleship, when we talk about evangelism,
it's not just about addressing people's behavior. You know, when
people even ask Jesus questions about the rules in the Gospels.
Many times he sidestepped the question about the rule, and
(39:01):
he went to the heart behind the question of what
are you really wrestling with? What are you really holding
on to? And what do you really want to know
about the character of God and what it is to
live a whole life? And so I think we are
neglecting the deeper spiritual issues when all of our conversations
and debates are about behavior and rules, and the rules
(39:25):
come out of the heart of God, they don't replace
the heart of God.
S1 (39:29):
That's so good. So going back to what you said
earlier about not just knowing about God, but knowing God,
doesn't it change our perspective in relationship to the rules?
So now all of a sudden, I look at the
rules because I know his heart and I see them
as parameters of protection, not as killjoys, not the rigidity of,
you know, you have to do this, or else I'm
going to get you like you're playing whack a mole
(39:51):
if you do something wrong. But in fact, it's this protection.
And now I want to I want to be obedient.
Not because I have to. In fact, I'm your typical firstborn.
And that's all you have to do is tell me
I have to do it. And it's like, how far
can I run the opposite direction? But if I loved
him because I know him now, I see the rules
were put there for protection. And I keep thanking him
over and over again for what I call those parameters
(40:12):
of protection, rather than the rigidity of rules.
S7 (40:16):
Yeah. So true. I don't know what your family was
like growing up, Janet, but my parents are probably listening
to this show right now, so I give them a
shout out. But they raised us. There were six of
us with a lot of rules, and we had manner charts.
We had job charts, we had high expectations of how
we behaved and treated each other. And if you were
(40:37):
a stranger coming into our house just looking at the rules,
you would be like, wow, this is an uptight family. Um,
but if you saw the reasons behind why my parents
did those things, the character formation, the things they were
teaching us, now I look back, my siblings and I
all look back with gratitude that they taught us to
(40:58):
work hard to treat each other with kindness. They taught
us how to live as civilized citizens in our world.
And when you're a kid, you don't see it. And
if you're a stranger to the house, you don't appreciate it.
But when you know the heart of your mother and
father and what they're developing in you, then you look
(41:20):
back with great appreciation. And when we see our world today,
our world is not a happier place because of the
sexual revolution. And we are not doing better. Like when
you look at the correlation between the LGBT movement and population,
when you look at the divorce rate, the singleness rate
in our society, all of it, it's correlated with loneliness
(41:42):
and depression and anxiety and suicidality and despair, because the
rules really frame the fact that we were created for intimacy.
We weren't created for sexual expression. And so it really
is a loving heart behind a God that would say,
I designed sexuality and sex for a purpose, and you
(42:03):
will flourish as human beings and as communities. When you
start with the fact that I created all this and
I know how it plays out in the best situations.
S1 (42:14):
Well, I love the way that you use your mom
and dad as an example. It really underscores this idea
of wanting to do this because you understand the heart,
but they're the operative word in that is the word knowing.
It's knowing not just about him, but knowing who he is.
So pragmatic question. And I know that people listening all
across the country are at various stages in their relationship
with the Lord. And by the way, you write that
(42:35):
this book is for Christians, and if you don't know yet,
the Lord is your personal Savior. This is like speaking
a foreign language to you, I get that. So let
me give you the invitation to know him personally. He
knows you. He created a void in your heart that
only he himself can fill. And when that happens, it's
like stepping out of a black and white movie into Technicolor.
So let me ask you to ask yourself the question
(42:57):
before you go to bed tonight. Who is this Jesus,
and how can I know him? But for those who
do know him, it really makes sense because it's how
you end the book you talk about. In the end,
it's our surrendering to love. How do we do that
if we don't believe that he truly, really loves us?
How can we know he loves us?
S7 (43:16):
Yeah, we got to ask him, Janet. You know, it's
not enough for us to sing a song about Jesus's love.
It's not enough for me to tell you that he
loves you. You have to hear it from him. And
my relationship with God just took such a drastic turn
when I became disconnected. Discontent with the level of my
(43:38):
relationship with God. I needed more, and I began asking
him every day for more and trusting that he wants
me to know him. He wants you to know him.
You know, there is a statement that Jesus makes in
the Gospels where he says, good fathers know what to
give their children. If you ask for a fish, would
(43:59):
he give you a snake? No. And he says, even so,
if you ask of the Holy Spirit, the father will
give it. And so all we need to do is
start by asking and seeking.
S5 (44:11):
Wow.
S1 (44:12):
What a note to end this conversation on. It's our
father's heart. Remember, the book of Hebrews says we've got
permission to boldly approach the throne of grace. So bring
him your shame, your hurt, your pain, your misunderstanding, your brokenness,
and then surrender completely to him. Because when you do that,
in the end you have surrendered completely to love. And
that will radically change your life. Check out the book
(44:34):
Surrendered Sexuality How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, because it certainly does. Julie,
thank you for a memorable and important conversation. Thank you friends.
We'll see you next time on In the Market with
Janet Parshall.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that encourages edifies, equips, enlightens,
and gently but consistently pushes you out there into the
marketplace of ideas. But before you start to listen and
before you go to the marketplace, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. And it is a
perfect fit for both the marketplace and getting out there.
It's Ray Comfort's book. Why? Jesus? If you listen to
(00:22):
the broadcast with any regularity, you know we love Ray.
He is bold, unashamed of the gospel. And yet in
such a winsome way, he delivers a truth narrative to
the man in the street, so to speak. He's written
the book Why Jesus? To Teach You How to Walk Through,
by examples and through real conversations he's had on how
to share the gospel in exactly the same way. Listen,
(00:43):
we're called to go and tell. It's not an opt in,
opt out clause. That's where we're supposed to go. And
in truth, how can we keep this good news to ourselves?
So I want you to have Why Jesus as this
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(01:03):
going financially, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet
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(01:25):
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of Why Jesus? 877 Janet 58 or online at In
(01:45):
the Market with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:52):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:57):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S6 (01:59):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:18):
Hi, friends.
S1 (02:19):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am
thrilled we are going to spend the hour together. Mom
and dad, I want to give you the heads up
because I care for you. This is an age appropriate
conversation because we are going to talk about sexuality. Wait.
Don't leave. Come back into the room. This is an
important topic because God is in this conversation. In fact,
it really is all about God. But I just want
(02:40):
you to know that this might spark some conversations that,
around your kitchen table, is not ready for your family
to have. So just know, because I love you. We're
going to talk about sexuality this hour, but just think
about that. I mean sexuality and God. Mm. For a
lot of people it's like, ooh, how can you put
those two in the same conversation? Well, I'll tell you what.
By the time we're done this hour, you're going to
(03:01):
understand that you really can't talk about the one without
talking about the other. And that's a good thing. That's
not a bad thing at all. In fact, Doctor Julie
Slattery is going to be with us all hour. I'm
going to take a minute to read her biography, because
I think it's germane to how I want to start
this conversation. So first and foremost, she's a clinical psychologist.
She's an author, she's a speaker. She's the president and
co-founder of Authentic Intimacy. She got her college degree at Wheaton.
(03:24):
Then she got an M.A. in psychology from Biola. Then
she got an M.S. and a doctorate in clinical psychology
from Florida Institute of Technology. But significantly, from 2008 to 2012,
she served at focus on the family. She was writing,
she was teaching. She co-hosts the focus on the family broadcast.
But in 2012, the Lord drew her to another place.
(03:46):
She left focus to start Authentic Intimacy, which is a
ministry devoted to reclaiming God's design for sexuality. And then
in 2020, Julie John launched Sexual Discipleship. That's a platform
that's designed to help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues and questions. Hello.
Do you think we need that at all these days?
But it's gospel centered truth. Julie is the author of
(04:08):
13 books and the host of the weekly podcast Java
with Julie. Just love that name. And we are going
to talk about her brand new book today called Surrendered
Sexuality How Knowing Christ Changes Everything, or rather, how Knowing
Jesus Changes Everything. I want to have the full title
correctly because it's right there in my information page, and
I don't want it to be if I give you
(04:29):
the wrong title, a stumbling block to your getting this book,
because it really is eye opening. It's profoundly important and
it changes everything about what we think about sexuality. So Julie,
the warmest of welcomes always, always, always love talking to you.
And I have to ask you what happened in your
Pilgrim's Progress, that in 2012, when you were serving in
(04:49):
Colorado Springs, as so many of those different slots that
I just talked about, but you really felt this tug
in your heart to start authentic intimacy. Tell me what
was going on in your life personally, to leave that
one ministry and start another one, specifically dealing with God's
design for sexuality?
S7 (05:07):
Yeah, it certainly had to be something big, Janet, because
I'm I'm no brave person. That's like, oh, I want
to tackle this topic. So first, thank you so much
for having me on. I always look forward to our
conversations and have so much respect for your work. Um, yeah.
That season I God just really took me through about
maybe 9 or 10 months of personally seeking him in
(05:29):
ways that I never had, just a real spiritual unrest
that caused me to withdraw from daily activities and really
spend time pursuing him. And it was through the course
of that that he burdened my heart for this topic
of sexuality. And, um, there's no personal connection to it.
It was just he literally burdened my heart, my heart,
(05:52):
like I physically had a pain in my chest for months. Um, just, um.
And he was bringing me families and women, you know,
that were struggling with different sexual issues and showing me
that we've really been silent on these topics, or at best,
maybe just addressing it from a 30,000 foot view, and
(06:13):
that his heart was really with people who are crying
out to him, you know, God, help me, help me
with this pain. Help me with my loneliness. Give me
wisdom for the things I'm walking through or a loved
one is walking through. So that's really what happened. And
it was just taking one step of obedience after the
other to get to the place where we are today.
S1 (06:35):
Wow, I'm so glad I asked that question for a
multiplicity of reasons, not the least of which is it's
a reminder that when the Lord really with clarity, tells
you where to go, and so presses into you that
the only place you find peace is in the center
of his will, regardless of where it is that takes you.
So I'm so glad that you shared that. But number two,
in the book you refer to yourself as an introvert.
And just now you said that you're not a courageous person. Um,
(06:58):
I don't know. You know, I've been doing radio since
Marconi put out his first, uh, radio. So. Okay, so
I there are decades where on Christian radio, you know,
more would have said the word sex or sexuality than
anything else under the sun that that was verboten, that
we didn't talk about it. And it goes to exactly
what you were just referring to, which is this idea
that rather than understand that God is all over this conversation,
(07:22):
as you write about with such eloquence in surrendered sexuality,
that we should have been talking about it, but we
didn't we? I'm going to use a cultural term, or
we've closeted this conversation and we've done it to our
own detriment. So here's a why question. Typical firstborn. Why
have we been so reticent to talk about this? And
where has our spiritual blindness been on this topic, where
(07:43):
we failed to see that God is central to the
conversation about sexuality?
S7 (07:48):
Yeah, boy, there's so many different ways of answering that
from the spiritual realm that we can't see that the
enemy is happy for the church to be silent on this,
so that the world can have the final say. And
there's the shame that many of us associate with sexuality,
whether that's things that we struggle with, things that we've experienced,
(08:09):
or just the nakedness that sexuality represents. Um, so that's
a very real thing. And then, you know, you can
look historically at the Victorian era era and just some
of the work that people like Nancy Pearcey have done,
helping us understand how we separated the physical from the
spiritual and got confused about all of that with dualism. Um,
(08:32):
so there's lots of different ways to explain it, but
I think all of us really have grown up with
a tradition now that the church doesn't talk about this historically,
we don't know how to. It wasn't addressed in Seminaries.
Pastors aren't equipped. Families aren't equipped. And so I think
everybody sort of feels like in these days where you
(08:53):
have to talk about it, we're trailblazing because we don't
have mentors and role models for how to do this
in a way that's integrated with a relationship with Jesus
and the truth that the gospel brings.
S1 (09:07):
What a superb answer. And so we get to spend
the hour with a trailblazer, somebody who said, no, now
we're going to talk about this and understand that God
is all over this issue. And you read that with
such clarity in her brand new book, Surrendered Sexuality How
Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. There it is, Jesus and the
word sexuality in the same title of the book. We're
(09:28):
just getting started. Doctor Julie Schlatter is our guest for
the entire hour. And I hope you're going to find
a cup of encouragement handed to you this hour, so
stick around. Got a lot to talk about back after this.
(09:56):
Street evangelist Ray comfort has spent decades pointing people to Jesus,
and I want you to do the same. That's why
I've chosen why Jesus is this month's truth tool. Ray
shares proven methods for sharing your faith with love and
confidence to a lost and dying world. As for your
copy of Why Jesus, when you give a gift of
any amount in the market, call eight 7758, that's eight
(10:16):
7758 or go to. In the market with Janet Parshall.
We have the privilege of spending the hour with the doctor,
Julie Slattery. She is the co-founder and president of Authentic Intimacy.
In 2020, she also launched Sexual Discipleship. Com. She's a
prolific author, and her latest book is the core of
(10:36):
our conversation today. Surrendered Sexuality How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. Julie,
early on in the book you write this, you said
some people have asked me what I mean by sexuality. Sexuality. Typically,
we think of sexuality as the same thing as sex.
Sexuality is the aspect of our humanity that causes us
to desire intimate connections with others. And then you say
(10:57):
it means far more than the act of sex. I
think that's very important for us to start there, because
I think in the minds and hearts of our listeners,
they will juxtaposition sex and sexuality back and forth. If
we don't offer some clarity on why sexuality is oh
so much bigger than sex, talk to me about that.
S7 (11:16):
Yeah. You know, when we just think of sexuality as
a behavior, it limits our conversation. So, for example, you
think about teenagers today or even 11 or 12 year
olds who are being sexualized by our culture and they're
forming opinions on their sexuality. They're declaring things like gender
preference or sexual orientation, and they've never had any kind
(11:40):
of sexual contact. And so we have to understand that
our sexuality is an aspect of our humanity. It's not
just something that we do, it's a part of how
we are created by God. And so the conversation is
so much broader and so much deeper than just telling
people what they should be doing, behavior with their behavior,
(12:00):
but really understanding the aspect of their humanity.
S1 (12:04):
Mhm. Yeah. Exactly right. You say also that sexuality is
never a neutral issue in our relationship with God. Again,
for a whole lot of people they're grabbing the smelling
salts because some of these thoughts are so foreign to
what they thought so far. So how again, is God
right in the middle of this whole conversation of sexuality?
S7 (12:22):
Yeah, Janet, this is really my passion for the ministry
I do and why I wrote this book, because I've
seen over the last 15 years that sexuality for many,
many Christians is a barrier to their relationship with God.
And I would also say with unbelievers, for a lot
of people, the reason they can't trust God is a
(12:42):
sexual reason. It's because I can't believe a loving God
would limit our sexual activity. Or who could marry whom. Um.
Or I can't believe a loving God would let the
trauma happen to me. That happened when I was five. Um,
so when we really pull back what we're talking about
with sexuality, we're not just, again, talking about rules and behaviors.
(13:04):
We're talking about a deeply spiritual issue and people are
grappling with, um, how could a loving God say, I
have to stay in a marriage that is unsatisfying? And
so I really have found that Satan will use this
good gift of our sexuality to be a barrier to
us knowing intimacy with God. It could be shame of
I don't feel worthy to pursue God or experience his love.
(13:28):
It can be anger. It can be doubt. But when
we begin to surrender this area and actually use the
pain points as an invitation to pursue God more in depth,
We find that it becomes the ground of intimacy, not
just in our personal relationships, but in our relationship with God.
S1 (13:46):
Well, there's so much I want to unpack and what
you just said. So let me start first with this
idea that God is central to this conversation. What happens?
And you go into great depth in the book. So
let me just ask you this as sort of a
prelude to a deeper part of our conversation later on.
But for people to say, wait a minute, if I'm
going to practice surrendered sexuality, and that's not just the
(14:07):
title of the book, it is a volitional choice to
do that. There's a presupposition there, and that is that
I have to trust God. Well, I got a trust problem,
I was abused, I've got shame in my life. I've
been hurt by people. I don't have a problem. I
have a problem trusting people on a horizontal level. Now
you're asking me to trust God on a vertical level.
Trust is not my thing. I just rather pull in
(14:28):
and just try to put one foot in front of
the other, thereby giving evidence to the fact that they
have anything but the abundant life that we've been promised.
So what happens if trust has been violated in your life,
how can you begin to trust a God when mortals
have broken that trust?
S7 (14:43):
Yeah, boy, I think that's such a great question. And
there are a lot of Christians who don't articulate the
fact that they're even asking that question. And so, you know,
that's the point of these conversations, is there's all this
stuff underneath the surface that makes you feel like God
doesn't care about me, or I can't experience the fullness
of life that he promises. And it's nebulous because we
(15:06):
have never said it out loud. There's so many men
and women who have never said out loud. In my
heart of hearts, I don't know if I can trust
God because of this horrible thing that happened to me
or in my heart of hearts. I don't know if
I can trust God because I have a gay son
and I don't know that God loves him, or I
feel torn between choosing between God and somebody that I
(15:28):
care about. And so the purpose of sort of the
discipleship journey really begins with God is not afraid of
those questions? Let's get them out in the open. You know,
Christian leaders should not be afraid of those questions because
that curiosity actually opens up. Okay. Well, let's press into
what it looks like to take that pain, to take
(15:49):
that doubt, to take that tension and bring it before
the presence of God, bring it before the wisdom of
Scripture and the Holy Spirit, and see what he says
instead of just shutting down and compartmentalizing this part of
our life.
S1 (16:04):
Wow. You make this statement in the book and it's
so beautiful it stands alone. But I really want you
to talk to us a little more about it. You
say that surrender is not God's demand on your life,
but rather his invitation to you. Surrender isn't ultimately about
what we let go of, but about how much of
God we are ready to embrace. Boy, we use the
(16:24):
word courage earlier. This is this is an act of courage,
is it not? Particularly if there's brokenness in your life
in this area?
S7 (16:31):
Yeah, 100% it is. You know, the call of any
follower of Christ is to live an integrated life. You know,
Jesus said, the greatest commandment is that you love the
Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul,
with all your strength. You know, Paul said in Romans
chapter 12, you know, offer yourselves as living sacrifices. So
it's an integrated life of Jesus owns everything. Everything is
(16:55):
surrendered to him. But in reality, we live very compartmentalized lives.
And there are pieces of our, our humanity that we're like, okay,
I'm I'm okay with trusting God with this, but not
with this area. And for a lot of people, that
area is sexuality. But once it ends up happening is
when we have unsurrendered areas of our hearts, there's strongholds
(17:19):
and there's lies in that stronghold, and ultimately it's the
enemy's power that begins to rule us. And so it's
not freedom at all. It's really captivity.
S1 (17:28):
Mm. Wow. I've told you this was going to be
an hour of encouragement, and you're already starting to think
through in your own life. Some of the issues you're
dealing with when it comes to your sexuality. Good, because
there's so much more to discuss. Surrendered sexuality. How knowing
Jesus changes everything. Doctor Julie Slattery, our guest. More after this.
(17:54):
Surrendered sexuality. It's the brand new book by Doctor Julie Slattery.
The subtitle says it all How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything.
I love the way that you take a look at
so many aspects of surrendering the different ways in which
we must surrender if we're going to have this total,
integrated relationship with God when it comes to the area
of sexuality. I was so glad that near the top
(18:16):
of the list was the idea of identity. Julie, I've
thought about this so much, particularly with this tsunami of
ideology known as transgenderism. If you can get past the
drag queens and the library at its core, this is
an issue of identity and absolute, palpable brokenness. Because if
you think that changing the outside is going to give
you definition on the inside, that is an exercise in
(18:39):
futility and it's going to cause nothing but further pain,
particularly if you move on to the areas of having surgery.
And the hole in the heart still resides there. But
our identity is very, very, very much wound up into
our sexuality, which is why I think if Christians are
paying attention, whenever we talk about this topic on this program,
we always talk about the fact that at its core,
this is a spiritual issue. So talk to me about
(19:01):
our identity, because the Bible gives us a plethora of
verses that tells us that we are made new in Christ.
You know, I no longer live, yet Christ lives in me.
I mean, in him. I live and move and have
my being. The list goes on and on and on
and on. And yet, in the midst of all of
that is this issue of sexuality tied to our identity?
Talk to me about that.
S7 (19:21):
Yeah. Janet, you mentioned how identity plays into the transgender movement,
but I actually believe it plays into all areas of
sexuality like it impacts every single one of us. And
so when we think about the culture that we live in,
you know very well, and you've had so many guests
that talk about this. We live in a postmodern culture
(19:42):
that essentially says there's nothing in terms of absolute truths
that help me make sense of my world. And so
each one of us is kind of tasked with, I
have to come up with my own reality, my own
sense of purpose for life, my own sense of right
and wrong. And so we get statements that we say
to each other like, follow your heart or you do you,
(20:04):
you know, that's from a postmodern framework of I have
to create my own happiness and sense of self. And
so 100% absolutely, that plays into what we're seeing with
the LGBTQ movement and the rise of all that. But
I also think it's really playing into even our view
of why we get married. Like, I have to find
(20:25):
the person who completes me, who makes me happy. Another
way identity really plays into this is sort of the
legalism of shame and performance. And we see this a
lot in the church around sexuality that people identify themselves
based on if they're pure or impure, whether they struggle
or don't struggle. Instead of saying, no, you know, the
(20:47):
most important thing about me is that I am redeemed,
that I am in Christ, and I bear the righteousness
of Christ. And so I begin to orient my life
based on what Scripture says about my worth, my relationship
with Christ, the fact that I am forgiven and free,
and now I can live with integrity and pursue integrity
(21:09):
because of who I am, not make assumptions about who
I am based on how I'm living. And so I
really believe that whenever we talk about sexuality, this is
the foundational issue for Christians, whether it's around conversations of marriage, pornography, dating, LGBT. Um,
you know, dealing with the past. It all comes down
(21:31):
to the most important thing about me has to be
that I am redeemed in Christ. I'm a son or
daughter of the King.
S1 (21:39):
Amen. So much. Let me so many layers. Let me
just pull a couple of them out. You know, this
idea of definition, identity, as you rightfully said, is really
the vast expanse of sexuality. I am a wife is
an identifier, right? That's tied into the idea of marriage.
But let me go to some of the aspects of definition.
So if you were abused, you can identify yourself. And
(22:02):
there'd be some justification in this to say I'm a victim,
but is that where God wants you to stay? So
if we take the shame or the abuse or the
damage that was done to us, and we stop there
and allow that to be our moniker, then how a
we don't understand who God is because it was what's
done to us or what we need to do, rather
than what he has done for us. You know, it's
(22:24):
this 50 cent theological term, this imputed righteousness. What does
that really mean in its application in integrated Christianity? If
we don't understand what that means, it really in the end,
newsflash has nothing to do with us and everything to
do with him.
S7 (22:39):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, to have been
a victim, to be a wife, to be a husband,
to be same sex attracted, you know, all of these
things are descriptors of what we experience here in the world.
And they're true. They're real. But what Christ calls us
to do is to understand every other descriptor under the
(23:02):
headship of who Jesus is, and that all of it
has to be viewed through that lens. And so it
doesn't make it necessarily untrue or that those things don't exist,
but they're framed from the perspective of, you know, if
you want to know what Jesus says about you, read
Ephesians one and two. Uh, you know Paul so eloquently
(23:24):
describes things that if we just sat in them that
we're forgiven, we're adopted. We are chosen as holy and
righteous and blameless. Our sins are forgiven, that we are
seated with Christ in God in the heavenly realms. You
know that we have the same power within us through
(23:45):
the Holy Spirit that God used when he raised Jesus
from the dead. And when we look at every other
description of how we understand ourselves in light of that
and those things again are still true. But like Paul said,
they they're nothing compared to knowing Christ and how Christ
is transforming me. And so the journey of maturity has
(24:06):
to be not just I want to get rid of
a struggle, but I really want to grow into believing
and living out what the Bible says about who I am.
S5 (24:17):
Oh.
S1 (24:18):
Oh, this hour is going far too quickly. There's so
much in this book. Are you beginning to radically rethink
this concept of sexuality? That God is in the center
of all of this? There's so much in Doctor Julie
Slattery's brand new book, Surrendered Sexuality, and the subtitle, How
Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. I want to go to the
core of that subtitle when we return, because that's really
(24:40):
the linchpin in all of this. Again, I've got a
link on my website not only to authentic intimacy, but
also to the book, so that you can click on through.
By the way, shout out for the home team, published
by Moody Publishers back after this. Our team of partial
partners is growing, and I love communicating behind the scenes
(25:02):
with this special group of friends who are devoted to
giving a monthly gift in the market. Our partial partners
receive private emails direct from me on issues we don't
address on radio, and I even send a weekly audio
message straight from my heart to yours. Ready to become
a partial partner? Call Janet, 58, or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. If you are just joining us,
(25:26):
pull up a chair. You're so welcome at the table
and I want to encourage you. We're having a fabulous
conversation with Doctor Julie Slattery. And you know what? I
love the technology of the 21st century. You didn't miss
a minute. Just go to where you find your favorite
podcast and download in the market with Janet Parshall. Put
in today's date and you'll get the entirety of this
precious conversation about surrendered sexuality. That's the title of Julie's
(25:49):
brand new book, How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. Just a
quick fly over again. Julie is a clinical psychologist and author,
a speaker, president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy. In 2020,
she launched Sexual Discipleship Comm, that's a platform designed to
help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues and questions with gospel
centered truth. She's the author of 13 books. Now it's
(26:11):
14 with today's book that we're talking about and the
host of the weekly podcast, Java with Julie. So I
underline and put exclamation points you put in italics in
the book, Julie. But I underlined it even more because
you said I never found freedom by looking in. That's
a stunning statement in and of itself as it stands alone,
but it's even more impactful for my perspective coming from
a clinical psychologist, because I have a dozen more. Let
(26:34):
me amend that number. I have a gazillion books written
by secular authors that I am asked to review all
the time, that deal with this idea that the solutions
can be found by looking in. Now, I'm a great
fan of doing personal introspection. I think we need to
do that in inventory. I want to keep a short
record of my sins, so I can't do that without
having to do some introspection. But you point out that
(26:55):
things began to change in your life when you changed
your focus to knowing God, not just knowing about him,
but truly knowing him. Now I find that fascinatingly powerful.
Your story is not unlike mine. Raised in a Christian home,
came to faith in Christ. Sundays, Wednesdays, church, camp, you
name it, there for the rest of our lives. I
get it, all of that. But there is such a
(27:17):
distinction between being immersed in a Christian culture and knowing
of God, rather than knowing him intimately and personally. How does.
Just as an example, let me ask this at the
35,000 foot, if we really knew God, just didn't know
about him, but really knew him, how would knowing God
impact issues like trust and intimacy and shame?
S7 (27:40):
Oh man, it would. It would completely change them. Um,
you can't trust somebody that you don't know. And I
think there are a lot of Christians who have salvation
in Christ that can't fully trust Jesus because they don't
know him. Um, they know him for salvation, but they
(28:01):
they don't know what it is to abide in him.
Like to experience his presence. I think we see a
great example of this in the book of Job. Um,
the calamities that job encountered led to all these real
questions about the goodness of God and Job standing before
God and his counselors were kind of debating all these questions,
(28:23):
but ultimately job kept saying, I want to talk to
the creator like I want to ask him. I don't
want your opinion. I need to know what he says.
And when the Lord spoke to job out of the whirlwind,
job just said, I take all my questions back. Like
I had no idea that you were so powerful. And
(28:45):
he said my ears had heard of you, but now
my eyes have seen you. And I was just like
you described. Raised in a Christian home, gave my life
to Christ as a child, grew in my faith, knew
the scriptures, was in ministry, but don't. I don't think
I really could say my ears had heard of you,
but now my eyes have seen you. Until about 15
(29:08):
years ago, and at the beginning of the show, you
asked me what led to me starting this ministry. And
it really was when the Lord called me to know him,
to know him personally. And it changed. It has changed
everything in my life. And, uh, and as I see
person after person after person struggle with these sexual issues.
(29:30):
My heart is to take that sexual issue in question
and actually let that be the thing that causes them
to actually seek God in such a way that they
know him, not just the Scripture and the and the rules,
but know the God that the scriptures point to. And
so Paul said that, you know, he said, I, I
(29:51):
consider everything I was as rubbish compared to the power
of knowing Christ. Um, and nobody can give you that
second hand. You have to go on that journey yourself.
And it truly does change everything.
S1 (30:06):
Yeah. So let me linger on this. And again, remember,
the core of our conversation is sexuality. But again, out
of that comes this idea of identity, and out of
that comes the idea. These are like Russian nesting dolls.
Out of that comes the reality that our identity is
found in him. Well, how can we have a right
identity if we don't know who he is? So here's
a question. Pragmatic and God is a very practical God.
(30:29):
So how does one go about knowing God? Does it
mean that you have to do every Bible study co-author
ever wrote, and then you'll know who he is? So
how does one know? You give three practical examples of
things that we can do. I'll tell you in my life, Julie,
I don't know if it happened in yours, but and
I you don't want to sign up for this class.
But you mentioned job earlier, the way in which I
got to know him more deeply and more intimately was
(30:51):
in the valleys, in the trials, in the refiner's fire.
You know, nobody signs up for that. But I'll tell
you what. Let me be the first at the front
of the line to say, I don't ever want to
be who I was before I went in the fire,
because I know so much more about him than what
I did before I went in the fire. But that's
one way to know. But again, nobody, nobody wants to
audit that class. So how do we really and truly
(31:13):
get to know him?
S7 (31:15):
Yeah. So what the trials usually do is they strip
away everything that's prompting, prompting us up. I'm the friendships,
you know, they're good, but they're really not going to
meet you in the hardest of times. Even the scriptures
can fall flat. And there's this uneasiness of I just
have to. I have to be face to face with him.
(31:37):
My surroundings are not enough. I need him. And we
can do that in trials, certainly. But we also can
do it apart from trials. And I think it begins,
you know, Jesus said, or the Lord said, you know,
you will find me when you seek me with your
whole heart. And I think it was A.W. Tozer I read,
who said, you have exactly as much of the Holy
(32:00):
Spirit as you really want. And, um, reading some of
those great writers that call us to deeper places have
been has been really formational and me knowing God like
reading the words of men and women who had this
palpable intimacy with God challenges me. And so that's one
(32:20):
way I think worship has been really powerful, not just prayer.
Prayer is powerful, but but sitting in the presence of God,
reflecting on who he is, being silent before him sometimes
fosters a deeper intimacy than when we go to him
with just lots of words. But ultimately, God is the
(32:41):
one who reveals himself to us. He's the one who
opens our hearts to him. And I really believe and
have seen that when we just cry out as feeble
as we can, God, I want that. Like I've been
in the church for decades and I. I don't feel
like I know you like that. Would you show me yourself?
I want to know you. He may not answer tomorrow,
(33:04):
but he seals that question and takes you on a journey.
And it's different for all of us, of truly knowing
the heart of God in such a way that it's transformative.
S1 (33:15):
Yeah. Oh boy, I could not agree more. So let
me talk about the idea that so often when you
talk about sexuality and Christianity in the same breath, the
first thing that pops up is rigidity and rules. Why
would I want to follow a God who gives me
a bunch of rules, and who really, at its core,
I see him as a cosmic killjoy. I mean, I've
got all the world telling me if it feels good,
(33:36):
do it. Let it all hang out. Let's have starter marriages,
let's have polyamory. Let's have just fill in the blank.
Whatever your tastes are sexually, let it go because that's
who you are, and that's how you should be made.
And enjoy yourself. And then you've got the church, and
the church goes, don't don't can't can't don't, don't. Well,
you know, I keep having to remind myself it wasn't
(33:58):
MTV that came up with the idea of sex. It
was God in a place of perfection. Let that sink in.
Why do we forget that it was God who was
the author of sexual communication, therefore also the author of
our sexuality? Talk to me about that.
S7 (34:14):
Yeah, boy, our sexuality has been so compartmentalized from God
that people really have a hard time accepting that. That
he's the one who formed us. You know, even when
you read Psalm 139, that beautiful Psalm of David saying,
you know, he formed me in my mother's womb. He
knows my innermost thoughts. Like all of this, we we say,
(34:38):
that's beautiful, but now apply it to even your sexuality.
And that that God formed David as a male, his
male genitalia and hormones. And when we apply it to
our sexuality, that God knows my fantasies and my lustful thoughts,
he knows the things that I'm ashamed of. We start
to get really uncomfortable. And so some of it is
(35:00):
pushing into that discomfort and say, why am I so
uncomfortable with that? Do I really believe that God created
my sexuality and he created it for a purpose? Um,
and again, that's a journey for most Christians are uncomfortable
when they first hear that. But if they press into
that and say, no, like, I really want to know.
I want to know the goodness of God. I want
(35:22):
to experience redemption and healing. I don't want to think
like the world does. He really does meet us in
those desires and in that question. And so I think
it is tearing down that kind of false compartmentalization that
a lot of us have between God and our sexuality.
S1 (35:41):
Yeah. And if we if we adhere to a strict
set of rules, rather than having a relationship with a
God that we know and has made himself known to us.
Isn't that a prescription for frustration? Because I'm always going
to fail. I'm never going to meet the standard, and
then I'm ashamed. And then I think, well, I'm beyond
the pale of Calvary, and I've missed his grace because
I am repetitive in my sin in this particular area.
(36:03):
I mean, it becomes cyclical, does it not? Now you're
hearing the music, and I know you're going to have
an answer that is worth hearing. So if you don't mind, Julie,
answer it on the other side. But it's this idea
that it really is, again, a concentric circles of impact.
It seems to me, with what happens when we think
this is all about adherence to a set of rules,
rather than the relationship we have with the living God, who,
(36:26):
as you just referred to before, knit us together fearfully, wonderfully,
including the entirety of our sexuality. The book is called
Surrendered Sexuality How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. Bet you won't
hear this conversation in the world. But boy, what a conversation.
It needs to be in the marketplace of ideas back
after this. Doctor Julie Slattery is with us a clinical psychologist, author, speaker,
(36:57):
president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy and the author of
the book. We've been discussing all our surrendered sexuality how
knowing Jesus changes everything. So I want to go back
to this idea of the rigidity of rules as opposed
to relationship. And no, I didn't stay up all night
trying to come up with that alliteration. It just kind
of works nicely. But I think for a whole lot
of Christians, it really is about making sure that you
(37:20):
adhere to a set of rules, and if you do,
then you quote pure and obedient. But you say in
the book, you can keep all the rules about biblical
sexuality and still have a heart that is far from
God's intentions in this area of your life. Talk to
me about that.
S7 (37:36):
Yeah, boy, this is something that I have learned over
the years. Um, there's so much as we've been discussing
underneath our sexuality. There's the shame we carry. There's the
wounds we have from our past. The hurts, the fears,
all of it. And when you only hear that honoring
God with your sexuality means don't look at porn. Don't
(37:58):
sleep with somebody outside of marriage. You can have all
those things still festering. You can doubt the goodness of God.
You can follow the rules just because you're supposed to
and you're afraid of hell, but you never experience what
it is to connect with God as your father, to
connect with who Jesus is as our healer, and to
(38:19):
connect with the fact that Jesus came to set us free.
And so there are a lot of Christians who would
talk about the rules, um, but really still kind of
have almost a hypocritical approach to, um, you know, as
long as you look good on the outside, then you're good,
even if your heart is hard towards the Lord, even
(38:40):
if you you have all this pain that's been not
surrendered to him. And so I think that's even really
key when we talk about discipleship, when we talk about evangelism,
it's not just about addressing people's behavior. You know, when
people even ask Jesus questions about the rules in the Gospels.
Many times he sidestepped the question about the rule, and
(39:01):
he went to the heart behind the question of what
are you really wrestling with? What are you really holding
on to? And what do you really want to know
about the character of God and what it is to
live a whole life? And so I think we are
neglecting the deeper spiritual issues when all of our conversations
and debates are about behavior and rules, and the rules
(39:25):
come out of the heart of God, they don't replace
the heart of God.
S1 (39:29):
That's so good. So going back to what you said
earlier about not just knowing about God, but knowing God,
doesn't it change our perspective in relationship to the rules?
So now all of a sudden, I look at the
rules because I know his heart and I see them
as parameters of protection, not as killjoys, not the rigidity of,
you know, you have to do this, or else I'm
going to get you like you're playing whack a mole
(39:51):
if you do something wrong. But in fact, it's this protection.
And now I want to I want to be obedient.
Not because I have to. In fact, I'm your typical firstborn.
And that's all you have to do is tell me
I have to do it. And it's like, how far
can I run the opposite direction? But if I loved
him because I know him now, I see the rules
were put there for protection. And I keep thanking him
over and over again for what I call those parameters
(40:12):
of protection, rather than the rigidity of rules.
S7 (40:16):
Yeah. So true. I don't know what your family was
like growing up, Janet, but my parents are probably listening
to this show right now, so I give them a
shout out. But they raised us. There were six of
us with a lot of rules, and we had manner charts.
We had job charts, we had high expectations of how
we behaved and treated each other. And if you were
(40:37):
a stranger coming into our house just looking at the rules,
you would be like, wow, this is an uptight family. Um,
but if you saw the reasons behind why my parents
did those things, the character formation, the things they were
teaching us, now I look back, my siblings and I
all look back with gratitude that they taught us to
(40:58):
work hard to treat each other with kindness. They taught
us how to live as civilized citizens in our world.
And when you're a kid, you don't see it. And
if you're a stranger to the house, you don't appreciate it.
But when you know the heart of your mother and
father and what they're developing in you, then you look
(41:20):
back with great appreciation. And when we see our world today,
our world is not a happier place because of the
sexual revolution. And we are not doing better. Like when
you look at the correlation between the LGBT movement and population,
when you look at the divorce rate, the singleness rate
in our society, all of it, it's correlated with loneliness
(41:42):
and depression and anxiety and suicidality and despair, because the
rules really frame the fact that we were created for intimacy.
We weren't created for sexual expression. And so it really
is a loving heart behind a God that would say,
I designed sexuality and sex for a purpose, and you
(42:03):
will flourish as human beings and as communities. When you
start with the fact that I created all this and
I know how it plays out in the best situations.
S1 (42:14):
Well, I love the way that you use your mom
and dad as an example. It really underscores this idea
of wanting to do this because you understand the heart,
but they're the operative word in that is the word knowing.
It's knowing not just about him, but knowing who he is.
So pragmatic question. And I know that people listening all
across the country are at various stages in their relationship
with the Lord. And by the way, you write that
(42:35):
this book is for Christians, and if you don't know yet,
the Lord is your personal Savior. This is like speaking
a foreign language to you, I get that. So let
me give you the invitation to know him personally. He
knows you. He created a void in your heart that
only he himself can fill. And when that happens, it's
like stepping out of a black and white movie into Technicolor.
So let me ask you to ask yourself the question
(42:57):
before you go to bed tonight. Who is this Jesus,
and how can I know him? But for those who
do know him, it really makes sense because it's how
you end the book you talk about. In the end,
it's our surrendering to love. How do we do that
if we don't believe that he truly, really loves us?
How can we know he loves us?
S7 (43:16):
Yeah, we got to ask him, Janet. You know, it's
not enough for us to sing a song about Jesus's love.
It's not enough for me to tell you that he
loves you. You have to hear it from him. And
my relationship with God just took such a drastic turn
when I became disconnected. Discontent with the level of my
(43:38):
relationship with God. I needed more, and I began asking
him every day for more and trusting that he wants
me to know him. He wants you to know him.
You know, there is a statement that Jesus makes in
the Gospels where he says, good fathers know what to
give their children. If you ask for a fish, would
(43:59):
he give you a snake? No. And he says, even so,
if you ask of the Holy Spirit, the father will
give it. And so all we need to do is
start by asking and seeking.
S5 (44:11):
Wow.
S1 (44:12):
What a note to end this conversation on. It's our
father's heart. Remember, the book of Hebrews says we've got
permission to boldly approach the throne of grace. So bring
him your shame, your hurt, your pain, your misunderstanding, your brokenness,
and then surrender completely to him. Because when you do that,
in the end you have surrendered completely to love. And
that will radically change your life. Check out the book
(44:34):
Surrendered Sexuality How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, because it certainly does. Julie,
thank you for a memorable and important conversation. Thank you friends.
We'll see you next time on In the Market with
Janet Parshall.
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