July 1, 2025 • 44 mins
We live in a cultural moment where the definition of "woman" eludes the keenest of thinkers and brightest of scientists, where one’s biological sex and one’s gender are divorced, where the meaning of gender itself is a constantly moving target, and where girls and women, especially, struggle to know who they are. Where societal confusion has naturally ensued from this state of affairs, and Christians especially wonder how to think and respond to it, Katie McCoy will offer a clear and helpful guide to understanding why, as a culture, we’ve arrived in such a place of gender confusion and what Scripture and science have to say on the matter. Join us for a compassionate and timely conversation.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
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(00:22):
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(00:43):
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(01:45):
the Market with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:51):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S1 (01:56):
Extremely rare safety move by a mason.
S5 (01:59):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:17):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
How many times on this program designed to equip, edify,
encourage and gently but consistently push you out there into
the marketplace of ideas? How often have we discussed this
idea of gender identity? And who in the world would
have thought it would be the tip of the spear
against Orthodox Christianity? I didn't see that one coming. And
(02:38):
I've been hearing Babylon for years, so I am surprised.
But I'll tell you what. I also know if I'm
supposed to give a reason for the hope that resides
within me. If I'm called to contend for the faith,
I'd better know how to respond. When somebody comes to
me and says, I was assigned a gender at birth,
I have decided I was born in the wrong body.
And like a suit of clothes, you can change who
(03:00):
you are. Wow. That's really pretty interesting, because the transcendence
of that question speaks to a big issue. What does
it mean to be human? What does it mean to
be made in the image of God? And since we're
told I didn't tell you, Jesus did, I'm just quoting
his words. We're supposed to go out there into that mess,
that muck, that mire, where good is called evil. Evil
(03:21):
is called good boy. People are doing what's right in
their own eyes. You and I are supposed to go
out into that mess. And so when we get there,
I guarantee you they're going to be talking about this issue. Now,
how do we respond one of two ways you're equipped.
You've done your homework. You've studied to show yourselves approved
unto God, or you pull the covers over your head
and said, not my war. Nope, nope. I'm saved. I'm
just going to wait until he calls me home. Oh
(03:43):
how sad. We miss these wonderful opportunities to engage a
culture that's screaming out in pain. If we would just
hear behind the roar of the culture that cry, that
screaming out in pain. To know if God is real.
How I know him personally. And where in the world
do I find my significance? And we were fingerprinted to
find our significance in him. So don't sit this one out. This.
(04:03):
Thank you. Father. You could have put us in the 1700s.
Whether or not we were going to suit up and
break away from Mother England. We could have been called
to live in the 1800s when sin split this nation
stem to stern. Or we could live in the 21st
century where somebody says, I'm really a boy, but I
was born a girl. What would you choose? I know
it's a rhetorical question because you didn't have a choice,
but as long as we're here, let's learn what it
(04:25):
means to be a woman. And we're going to discuss
this hour the confusion over female identity and how Christians
can respond. Boy, I have a book in front of
me that I have read. I've dog eared, I have underlined,
I know I made every librarian just pass out, but
that's what a good book does. And it really is,
I think, a necessary tool in your Pilgrim's Progress right now.
Throw it in your backpack. You're going to need this
(04:46):
one because with brilliance, the author whom I will introduce
you to you in just a moment, really lays out
the cultural manifestations but takes us right to the theological
core of the issue. It's that intersection of what we
do on this program all the time of faith and culture,
doctrinal truths, applying the whole truth of the whole world
to the whole gospel. And, you know, once upon a time,
books like the one we're going to talk this hour never, ever,
(05:06):
ever would have been written. But then again, once upon
a time, we wouldn't be asking a sitting Supreme Court
Justice nominee, how do you define a woman? And she
wouldn't be able to do it. So welcome to the
days and age in which we have been called. Doctor
Katie McCoy is our guest. And I want to underscore
the doctrine because she got that doctorate in systematic theology,
no easy feat that she is, by the way, a
(05:28):
former seminary professor. She teaches and writes on the intersection
of theology, culture and women's issue and has co-authored a
book on the doctrine of humanity as part of the
theology for the People of God series put out by
BNA academic. Included among her research is discovering the pattern
of justice for women in Old Testament laws. When I
get five minutes to myself, I'm going to pursue that one,
by the way. But she joins us because she wrote
(05:50):
a wonderful book. It's got the X chromosome, but it's
covered with beautiful floral extensions, leaf extensions, really kind of
bespeaking the feminine aspect of that XX, which, by the way,
is the way God coded us. If you're a woman x,
y if you happen to be a man, to be
a woman. The confusion over female identity and how Christians
can respond oh Katie, have I been waiting for this one?
(06:11):
Thank you so much for being here. And I got
to start with the first question. Systematic theology. Not exactly
a light subject. It's hefty. Hefty, hefty. What made you
want to pursue that?
S6 (06:23):
Janet, it is so, so good to be with you.
I feel like I could just hang up now because
you've summed up the whole argument. You've really hit it.
The spiritual core of where we are today. Yeah, I
did a systematic theology at the encouragement of a lot
of professors, and it was kind of that that opportunity meets, um,
aptitude and really aptitude for me was just I enjoyed it.
(06:46):
I was kind of a nerd who liked her theology
classes and just had some wonderful professors pushing me in
that direction, and I didn't know what I was going
to do with it. I had no idea I would
be sitting here talking to Janet Parshall, talking about gender identity,
but I just walked through the door, uh, as it,
as it was right in front of me. And, uh,
it's kind of a good life lesson. You don't have
(07:08):
to have a five year plan. You just kind of
take the next step and let the Lord direct you
from there.
S1 (07:14):
Isn't that true? I always say, hang on to your
ticket stub because you don't know where you're going. I
just love that. You know, what I love about this
is that one tends to think particularly, and I really
smile with the word systematic theology because I'm married up
my husband the first year of our marriage said, honey,
this is what I want for Christmas. Schaffer Systematic Theology
didn't realize it was a boatload of books, and the
(07:34):
guy has gone through it more than once now. I
am the beneficiary of his gift of wisdom that he's got.
But it's the propensity, when you talk about systematic theology,
is to think you've got the speckled glasses on that
sit on the bridge of your nose and its dusty books,
and you sit in a dark library somewhere. And what
you are is the living proof that it's the application
of real word answers to real world questions. It's applied Christianity,
(07:59):
it's apologetics. It's being able to say Amen on Sunday
and not looking like a deer in the headlights on Monday.
Taking what he says and applying it to the world
around us. So I think God's called you for such
a time as this, to take bedrock, solid Christian orthodoxy
and then apply it to the absolute total confusion out
there that's roaring around our little tents and the churches,
by the way, not immune from this. So this is
(08:21):
not just a cultural it is a theological conversation as
well that you break down the book. Somebody who's gotten
a PhD obviously knows how to do research and categorize
and outline and do it all in a systematic form.
And that's what you've done. But just sister to sister
is a philosophical question. Did you see this coming?
S6 (08:38):
Yes and no. So I had been studying this, um,
when it was very much on the fringes, kind of
related to feminist history and women's studies, and at the time,
it was really kind of an outlier. There were a
few stories that were kind of attention grabbing, almost clickbait, like,
I can't believe this is happening. But gradually it became
(09:01):
more and more to the center, and all of a
sudden we're looking around going, what has happened to the world?
It has changed overnight.
S1 (09:08):
Yeah, it sure has. And center, I think, is such
an important word because this is not a sidebar story.
This isn't fringe. Every single day of the week, I
don't care what your favorite news source is. This topic
is in there somewhere. Now, brothers and sisters, we're not
going to sit this one out. We're going to get
off that diet of milk. We're going to move to meat.
We're going to get some spiritual heft, and we're going
(09:28):
to learn how to winsomely engage the culture. On the question,
what does it mean to be a woman back after this?
In today's world, people are more confused than ever about
(09:49):
truth and meaning. That's why I've chosen Why Jesus by
Ray comfort is this month's truth tool. Discover why Jesus
is the only path to everlasting life, and learn how
to confidently share that hope with others. As for your
copy of Why Jesus, when you give a gift of
any amount to in the market, call 877. 58 that's
877 Janet 58 or go to. In the market with
Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Katie McCoy. I'm going
(10:14):
to underscore that doctorate because she worked hard to get it,
by the way. And it happens to be in systematic theology.
And we are the better for her writing and her teaching.
She talks about how faith and theology and culture and
women's issue all intersect with each other, and then comes
out and teaches us where we can stand on bedrock,
solid Christian orthodoxy. So she was led to write the
book To Be a Woman, the confusion over female identity
(10:38):
and how Christians can respond. By the way, for the record, Katie,
as you can figure out already is very much involved
in women's studies and women's teachings, but the principles that
we are talking about apply straight across the board. So
this is not a gender specific conversation. Gentlemen, come back
into the room, please. This is for all of us.
This is understanding that transcendent question about what does it
mean to be human. You start out the book this way,
(10:58):
and I want to just touch on it briefly, because
maybe it's because being here in Washington, D.C., we're saturated
with stats and white papers. But when you start looking
at the uptick of people who are dealing now with
this issue, it's like 4,000%. It is the working definition
of what a cultural contagion is. Talk to me about that.
S6 (11:16):
Yeah. All of a sudden in seemingly just a decade
or or two, it has all flipped in a way
that has even social scientists and professionals scratching their heads
trying to understand what has happened. So this idea of
gender dysphoria, which simply means that your biological sex and
your gender identity, or your sense of yourself as a
(11:37):
man or a woman, that they're out of alignment and
that's been around for thousands of years. We can actually
find in the ancients that this existed, but it was
incredibly rare, and it typically manifested among natal males. So
biological boys often between that two and four years old.
And overwhelmingly, once they grew into puberty, it it sort
(12:01):
of ironed itself out. Once puberty hit the the child
came to align with the gender that corresponded to his
biological sex. However, now it has all flipped not only genders,
but age groups. So now it is overwhelmingly teenage girls,
usually that middle school, high school, and then even college
aged young women. And they professed no previous experience of
(12:26):
gender dysphoria. So we have professionals trying to figure out
what has happened, and some are looking at it honestly
saying there are ingredients in the culture that are causing
this and creating it. And other people say they've been
there all along. We've just now evolved as a society
where people are now safe to come out of their
(12:46):
shell and be their authentic selves. And here we are
in Pride Month, and you have likely seen no shortage
of that phrase being your authentic self. And anything that
gets in the way of that is, well, we've got
to get rid of it. So we are confronting, um,
kind of the confluence of so many different ideas just
in this question.
S1 (13:07):
Well, first of all, thank you, father, for not allowing
me to be my authentic self. It just rail against
that phrase because if you understand the scriptures, I am
a great sinner in need of a great Savior, if
I can quote Newton. And so. But we'll get into
that in just a moment, because you talk about some
of the isms that really have opened the door to this,
by the way, the idea of they were there all along,
(13:28):
now they're just free to come out. That is a
ploy I've seen in Washington for decades where in order
to boost the numbers, in order to impact public policy
and funding, you have to look like it's a major problem, right?
Or a major issue that requires the government's full attention.
So you simply say, and there's no way to prove it.
I mean, it's not objective. It's not a metric you
can measure. They were there all along. So now they're
just free to come out, or you've got some kind
(13:50):
of societal pressure that makes you think you have to
do it. I mean, really, when a preschooler says you
can be a boy or you can be a girl
who's grooming, who's recruiting. So these are just, again, the
manifestations of all the stuff that's going on. What I love, though,
is that you do a kind of flyover on the
isms that we find in the marketplace of ideas that are,
in fact, contributing to how one gains secularly outside the
(14:12):
world of God's truth and His Word, how we gain
a self, a sense of ourself. And so you talk
about the impacts of postchristianity and postmodernity, and I'm glad
you draw a distinction between the two, because I think
for a while and maybe we could, but things have
changed rapidly. We kind of amalgamated postchristianity and postmodernity. Now
they're separate, distinct, and now we are post-truth. If you
(14:33):
take the Oxford Dictionary word of the year. So talk
to me about those two.
S6 (14:37):
Yeah. So postchristianity essentially means that we like some of
the benefits of Christianity, but we don't like any of
its claims. So we like ideas like kindness and generosity,
the equality of every person, no matter what their social status.
Those are things, by the way, that the West inherited
(14:57):
from the influence of Christianity. But once we start talking
about things like Jesus is Lord, we are sinners in
need of a Savior. There is a real heaven and hell,
and we can only be forgiven through Christ alone. Well,
people don't like that, and they especially don't like when
we start talking about what the Bible has to say
about how we live our lives in terms of sexual ethics.
(15:19):
Everybody likes Jesus till he starts making demands on their lives.
But then post-modernism is something that's happening in tandem with
our post-Christian culture. But post-modernism says that even if truth existed,
even if absolute truth was a thing, we are incapable
of accessing it because we are just finite human beings
(15:41):
influenced by our culture. So. So the best we can
do is acknowledge that our culture has created these stories,
these narratives, in order to keep order. But in light
of that, any religion, any authority group that says they
have the market on truth, well, not only would they
be lying, but they're just trying to control you. It's
(16:02):
all about power. And that leads into some other isms.
As you as you said, especially in our American culture
that has helped set the stage for this transgender moment.
S1 (16:14):
Yeah. Let me linger here for a minute, and then
we'll look at some of those other isms. First of all,
I take umbrage with those who think that Christians can't
walk and chew gum at the same time. And maybe again,
it's my years here as a war correspondent in Babylon.
But I think that we can draw a distinction between
people and policy. The people who struggle, it must be
absolutely hell. And I use that word theologically to look
(16:35):
in a mirror and not see how God has made
you not see the reflection of Imago Dei, that I
am fearfully and wonderfully made, to the point where the
colors of my eyes and my sex were designed before
time began by God himself. That must be absolutely awful.
But I can draw a distinction between wanting to offer
that that warm cup of encouragement, compassion, the ears that
(16:55):
need to hear the pain, and the arm around the
shoulder that needs to walk you through this journey, and
the public policy that advocates for this or the contentions
that continue to further it. So I want to ask
a question, Katie, if I can, and get the answer
when we get back, looking just at a transcendent, not
looking at the individual at its core, I see this
as a spirit of rebellion. It goes back to Genesis three.
(17:17):
Did God really say that he made man and woman?
How about you will be like God? You can determine
what your sex is. I'd love for you to take
a look at that question when we come back. Absolutely
fabulous book, in fact, the best on the topic. I'm
telling you in my classroom it would be required reading
to be a woman. The confusion over female identity and
(17:37):
how Christians can respond back after this. What an important
and timely conversation. Thank you Lord for raising up leaders
like Doctor Katie McCoy. She's written the book To Be
(17:57):
a Woman The confusion over female identity and How Christians
Can respond. So we were talking about the influence of
Postchristianity postmodernity, and I asked Katie just before the break
and again, understanding the pain and the compassion necessary to
minister to broken people. But when you just look at
this from a transcendent perspective, is there not, at its core,
(18:17):
a kind of spirit of rebellion for someone to make
the declaration I was assigned the wrong gender at birth
or sex at birth. We interchange those two all the
time is a declarative statement of rebellion because it's Nimrod
esque in its moment, where we basically raised a fist,
figuratively to God and said, you made a mistake. I'm
going to determine, am I right or wrong on that?
S6 (18:39):
That's exactly right. And as harsh as it sounds, we
all do that, right? Anyone who has lived, has, has
sinned against God and said, um, not only do I
want to be like God, but I can determine my
own boundaries and I want to self determine the limits
of my existence. And so at its core, and again,
we talk about like the cultural deception and the influences
(19:02):
and factors contributing to this. But someone who says I
was born in the wrong body is looking at how
God created them, not only defying their creator, but then
saying how God created me is holding me back from
my true self. That is everything that is said and
reasoned in the garden. You know, Satan plays this deception
(19:26):
a thousand different ways, but he is terribly uncreative. But
what we're seeing now is that we have technology, we
have philosophy, we have culture that has sort of evolved
in a different way, playing the same song, just in
a different verse. And so instead of recognizing that we
are in the image of God, people are now reconstructing
(19:50):
themselves to be in the image of their self-perception.
S1 (19:53):
Wow. Wow. And this requires a sophisticated Christian response. It
also gives rise to the third element, which is this declaration,
this ridiculous declaration that you're supposed to live your truth.
You and I could wax for the next hour about
how philosophically vacuous this is, Katie. If you have your
truth and my truth, which one transcends mine, cancels out yours,
yours cancels out mine. And we pretend that truth is
(20:15):
not objective and knowable and applies to all people in
all times, in all places. So live your life. Live
your truth. We that would be, it seemed to me,
the anticipated outcome of this kind of self aggrandizing thinking, right?
S6 (20:29):
That's that's exactly it. And it's those three word mantras,
you know, live your truth. You do. You follow your heart.
And we have all imbibed this cultural message that you
can be whatever you want to be. And anything external
like a religious authority, parental influence, society. If they go
(20:50):
against that self-perception, not only are they wrong, but they
are oppressive. You should get them out of your lives.
In fact, it even extends to your own physical body.
Your external self does not even have a right to
determine and overcome your self-perception. That is the degree to
(21:10):
which we have, as a society, been drinking down this idea.
The philosophical idea is called expressive individualism, not just individualism.
Like how if you are a Western person, you're an individualist,
If you are an American, you're a super individualist. But
expressive individualism says that your true self is found in
(21:32):
your feelings and the way to be a happy, whole,
fulfilled human being is to follow your emotions no matter
what they are and no matter where they take you.
S1 (21:42):
Yeah. Wow. So good. So, uh, let me address the.
By the way, when books are as good as yours,
I'm so frustrated because I'm just going to barely skate
over the top of this ice pond, and there's so
much under the surface. So I'm going to say to
my friends what I always say in a book that
really hits me between the eyes, this is not a
book report. If I piquing your curiosity, if I'm stirring
your intellectual desire to know more, I will have done
(22:04):
my job. But please know that everything we're talking about,
there's a whole lot more where that came from. I
just want to put that out there. So let me
linger on what you just said, which is the £800
gorilla in the room, and why I think Oxford was
right when they chose the word of the year is post-truth.
We flipped the idea that now the affective what we
feel supersedes the cognitive, what we know and what we
(22:24):
know doesn't supersede what we feel anymore. It's my feeling
dictates and contains the contents of my truth. The £800
gorilla is do we need to do a little chromosomal
test right now so you can feel all you want to?
You can decide all you want to, what you want,
but there is still the unbearable being of who you are.
X x x y. They've been in my town, marching
(22:47):
down the streets. Holding up signs that say follow the science.
Did they get lost?
S6 (22:53):
It's so ironic, isn't it? Because this is an ideology
that completely does away with empirical reality. Who you are
physically is considered completely immaterial to your true self, to
the point that even medicine. Now, it's like, what are
you going to do now when when some of these
(23:13):
ideas come up against medical practice? You know, a male
and a female have to have different doses of the
same medicine because their bodies are different. What happens when
we start talking about procedures and surgeries that that run, um,
run afoul, frankly, of this post-truth culture where you can't
(23:34):
get around the physical reality and how it affects you.
This is where the Christian worldview, if we can kind
of do the 40,000 foot view of it, though, this
is where the Christian worldview is so powerful for our
cultural moment because our God physically came, physically lived, physically died,
was physically raised, physically ascended, is physically in the unmitigated
(23:59):
presence of the father, is going to physically raise us
with resurrection bodies. The body matters to God and the
future of humanity is embodied.
S1 (24:11):
Wow. Such rich, good conversation. Boy, I hope you got
your thinking caps on and really just ask the Lord
to just make you hungry to know more because you
are going to go out there, right? John 17. My
prayer is not that you take them out of the world.
So when you go out there, because I don't know
how you tell people about the gospel unless you're out there,
trust me, they're going to want these kinds of questions
(24:31):
answered before you tell them about the one who formed
them and made them to be a woman. Doctor Katie
McCoy's brand new book already halfway through. Glad we got
more time right after this. What's the goal of in
(24:54):
the market? I'll tell you in the market equips men
and women to think critically and act biblically. Why do
we do this? So that we can be confident when
speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are you willing
to stand with me? Become a partial partner today, and
enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while making an
impact for the Kingdom? Call 877 Janet 58 or go
online to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Just joining us.
(25:19):
The warmest of welcomes. But let me tell you, as
a friend, you need to hear the first half of
this conversation. So go to in the market with Janet
Parshall on the left hand side. Bunch of words. Look
for these two. They sit right next to each other.
Past programs clicking on download this hour in its entirety.
You can do either the two hours we do every
day going back a year. But you do want to
get this conversation from the very beginning. We have gone
(25:43):
down the rabbit hole, Alice. We don't know what we
believe anymore about. What is the truth standing right before us,
you ask? I referenced before, will you ask a Supreme
Court nominee what is a woman? And she cannot give
an answer. We've got secretaries of Health and Human Services
who can't answer that question. We've changed words in our
government documents. Moms are not moms anymore. It's birthing persons.
(26:04):
I mean, really, I could spend the rest of this
hour just telling you how government documents have changed because
we can't answer or recognize, more to the point, the
truth standing before us. So Doctor Katie McCoy, who has
a PhD in Systematic Theology and is a former seminary professor,
loves to write and teach about all the things that
intersect theology, culture, and women's issues. And she's put together
(26:26):
a fabulous book called To Be a Woman The confusion
over Female identity and How Christians Can Respond. But even
before we get to the sound theology that's in the book,
this book could be read by anybody just to look
at where we are today and how we got there
in the first place. So I want to linger a
little bit more on some of these isms that sort
of pushed us to this place, because it's kind of
(26:47):
like the spinal column of the book. And so we've
talked about several things we could discuss if we wanted to,
how it's an attempt to try to disrupt society. I
think that's why we've become a fertile field for critical theory,
because it's a way of destroying, tearing down. That's what
would be what we've known before. Obviously, the idea about power,
this is very much a part of this power says
(27:07):
I'm going to go to target when you take those
clothes out and I'm going to threaten you with bombs,
or I'm going to threaten you with an economic boycott
if you don't put those products back in the shelf.
That's their idea of power. Mm. I think we heard
that somewhere in a garden with a tree. But I digress.
I want to talk about identity and intersectionality because, Katie,
you know this word, but a whole lot of folks
listening all across the country right now kind of hear
(27:28):
it in passing, in that panoply of confusing, post-truth words
like critical theory. And they don't know what intersectionality is.
What is the intersection, no pun intended, between identity and intersectionality?
S6 (27:42):
Yeah, this is one of those concepts that has had
it's become very ingrained in our social consciousness, whether or
not we even understand what it is. So intersectionality began, um,
as more of a legal theory of trying to understand
how different people's multiple minority statuses intersected and gave them
(28:03):
a different experience in American culture. And when I talk
about intersectionality, I always like to distinguish between the descriptive
and the Prescriptive aspects. So the descriptive is looking at
various aspects of a person's demographic makeup. So their ethnicity, um,
perhaps if they have a disability. And then of course
(28:26):
in this LGBTQ conversation they'll talk about sex and gender.
But what happens there is it goes a step further
to the prescriptive aspect, because we could recognize how two
different people with their backgrounds may have had two very
different experiences in American society. But intersectionality also has that
(28:46):
prescriptive aspect. And it says that the person who occupies
the greatest number of minority statuses has the greatest market
on truth. And if we really want to discover what
truth is, we can't know that objectively, as something outside
of us, we have to listen to people who have
(29:08):
a perspective that we don't And elevate them. And this
is where we also hear these ideas like decentering the
majority and bringing to the center or elevating a new perspective,
a different perspective. This goes into these ideas of social
(29:29):
deconstruction or cultural deconstruction, and it even starts extending as
we bleed into some other of these isms in that,
in that chapter to things like the economy, the family,
other things in society that, uh, are, are bedrocks or
just foundational aspects of our lives. And it views them
with suspicion because and only because they are the majority.
S1 (29:54):
Wow. There's an intersection here. Again, no pun intended, between
what we were talking about before, because what we hear,
particularly in the beautiful way in which you just described this,
is the transcendence of the experience that somehow the experience
dictates the truth. And when you do that, that's why
it's my truth, not your truth. Live your truth. ET cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. But that's the wonderful thing about truth.
(30:15):
It is objective. It's knowable. It is obtainable for all people.
So if your experience dictates, we're going to get into
trouble because that's not protective. And it can change from
people group to people group or generation to generation or
country to country. If you use that as your metric,
that somehow that's power or that's a way of redefining
(30:36):
the truth, you open a Pandora's box, do you not?
And not only that, but you trample underfoot the idea
that truth is objective and can be known by anyone.
S6 (30:45):
Oh, completely. And to to look at the effects of it.
Just look at generation Z. You know, generation Z is
really the first generation that has grown up truly in
this post-Christian culture. Um, they don't have, uh, even like,
like me, a millennial, kind of a prior framework of
when America was a very different culture and how it
(31:06):
related to some of those concepts of family and religion,
but Gen Z true post-Christian Americans. And there's two factors,
and I don't think that these are a coincidence. First
of all, widespread gender confusion and widespread anxiety and mental
health crises. These two things are linked. We are having
(31:27):
a generation trying to answer these foundational questions of who
they are, how they find fulfillment, what the whole point
of their existence is. And it is unmoored, untethered, disconnected
from anything beyond themselves. So they're answering these deeply transcendent
questions with nothing more than their feelings to guide them.
(31:50):
And and no wonder we have a mental health crisis.
One of our government officials was talking about the relationship
between social media and mental health among young people. And
I thought, you know, that's great, but it's incomplete because
until you're going to look at how social media has
Proliferated gender confusion among young people. You are only scratching
(32:11):
the surface, and I would even dare to say, willfully
ignoring the evidence.
S1 (32:17):
Yes. Let me underscore the wolfling again. Um, I'm not cynical,
but what one can be after many decades in Washington, D.C.,
but I've sat through all the hearings on the Hill
when they've talked about the damage that some of these
platforms do, particularly to adolescent and pre-adolescent kids. And then
you have to stop and say, okay, it isn't like
you are short on the information. It's whether or not
(32:37):
you have the political will. And then you start looking
at the Bible verse. It says, the love of money
is the root of all evil. And you look at
both sides of the aisle and then they're taking donations
from big tech companies. And oh, I'm wringing my hands
and oh, what? Don't we have a problem? I'm not
going to be the one to introduce or vote for
that legislation. It will impact my campaign fund. So that's
the seamy underbelly of Washington. But it really does go
to the idea that we know the facts are the
(33:00):
science question I asked earlier. These are indisputable, self-evident truths Truce.
Whether or not we have the will to do it
is a whole nother question. And then let me touch
on this. You could write a doctoral thesis on this,
which is the idea of what exactly constitutes human rights.
And I'm so glad you picked this up in the
book that somehow trans rights are human rights. Now, to
this day, the DSM, the diagnostic Bible, still identifies, um,
(33:23):
this this condition as a mental health issue. Now they're trying,
like the APA did back in the 70s, to dial
down the diagnosis and make it more to be just
a norm for the human condition. But if we start
saying that trans rights are human rights, then the right
of polyamory is right. The act of necrophilia is right.
The right of pedophilia is right. In other words, we
(33:45):
have to have a very grown up conversation of what
really constitutes human rights. And it seems to me we're
we're sitting at the table yelling at each other. We
haven't had a good conversation about that. Give me your thoughts.
S6 (33:58):
Yeah. So two things. One, uh, following the sexual revolution, uh,
sex became disconnected from any type of covenant relationship and
even responsibility. And so the only factor that determines whether
or not a sexual relationship or a sexual identity is
good or bad is consent. And so that's what we
(34:18):
see with polyamory, with, um, homosexual or same sex marriage.
And uh, what we've not seen yet, at least as openly,
is the advocacy for pedophilia or pederasty. Now, I say
yet because it is coming, it's happening. In fact, one
of the things that that is happening in this, uh,
(34:39):
if you want to call it a community, they don't
like the word pedophile, because that is that sounds very
clinical and that's very judgy. And so let's give it
a new term. Why don't we call it minor attracted persons.
And this is a push. In fact some of them
are wanting their own place in the gender flag now. Um,
but but it's all hinging on this idea that that
(35:02):
also should be a socially and politically recognized identity. Couple
that though Janet, with some other concerning things we're seeing,
for instance, in the United Nations, the UN, they came
out with some type of study saying that children, those
under 18, are capable of consenting to a sexual relationship. Now,
(35:24):
that had at least the promise when I first thought, well,
is this about child brides and trying to help, you know,
young girls in Nepal say that they have the ability
to consent. So therefore we should respect that ability to consent.
Oh no no no no. Right. This was all about
LGBT issues. This was all about gender identity. So here
we have the UN opening the door for a legally
(35:47):
recognized pedophilic or pederastic relationship. One more note that's that's
worth knowing for your listeners. When you mentioned the DSM
and how it's relating to concepts like gender dysphoria and
whether we call it a diagnosis. Here's where I think
they're always going to keep it, because if they can't
(36:07):
get a diagnosis, then they can't have a health insurance
company pay for the treatments and the surgeries. Again, it
all goes back to money.
S1 (36:17):
Yeah, exactly. And but it also does put them on
the horns of a dilemma because you want those funds. Wow.
That's utterly amazing. And you know, I reported on this
program about that UN report, which is ridiculous. Another £800
gorilla in the room. What happened to the best interests
of the child? A lot of these kids, by the way,
getting these surgeries. Can't vote, can't buy alcohol, can't serve
in the military, but can get mutilated. Think about that
(36:39):
back after this. I just love this book. Full disclosure
I got to tell you that I read an awful
lot of books in the work that God has called
me to do, and boy, the ones that make me
stop and just go back again and again are the
(36:59):
ones that I really want to promote on this broadcast,
so that you and I, well, we can be prepared
for what is God, what God has called us to
do today and a million years. I'm just a simple
Bible church kid, okay? I never thought in a million
years we, the followers of Jesus Christ and contending for
the faith, would have to explain what it means to
be a woman. And that question, by the way, yes,
it can be answered biologically, but far more profoundly it
(37:21):
can be answered and must be answered theologically. Are we
ready for this? Well, I don't know. That's why I
want this conversation to go now. And there I'm going
to repeat myself. There is a ton more in this
book that even the gift of one hour of doctor
McCoy's time. I can't begin to plumb the depth. So
you get the book, you read it, and you be
prepared because your granddaughter, your cousin, your niece, your neighbor,
(37:42):
somebody you know is going to come to you and say,
I'm born in the wrong body. And then how are
you going to be able to answer, understanding where they're
coming from and how we, through a grace narrative, give
that winsome, eloquent response of the gospel? Katy's book is
called To Be a Woman the confusion over female identity
and how Christians can respond. There's a ton more of
the cultural stuff, which I gobble up all the time,
(38:02):
because it's part of my transcultural missionary experience. I want
to know what they're thinking when I get out there
and how to respond. But Katie, I wish with all
my heart I could say hasn't touched the church. It's
exactly the opposite, because a whole lot of those books
that I'm reviewing, it's like, what Bible are you reading?
So this stuff is working its way into the church
house door now, where, I mean, I read an article
by a Christian just the other day, why shouldn't we
(38:24):
hang the gay flag? Uh, okay. Let you think about
that for a little while. So now we're beginning to say,
I mean, look, I give you the Church of England.
We're going to put a committee together so we can
discover what it means to be a woman in the
Scripture and maybe, perhaps consider changing the pronouns of Scripture.
This is called mission creep. So let's talk about going
on into the church and how we discover what it
(38:46):
means theologically to find our identity, whether it be male
or female. This big question of what it means to
be human can be found within the pages of Scripture.
Where do I start my search? And why did God,
in his sovereignty and his love toward us, want us
to have the sense of being in him inside and out?
S6 (39:07):
So we have to go all the way back to
the beginning. And and we want to preface every conversation
as we're talking about what it means to be a
male or a female, creating the image of God with
understanding that we can't possibly understand what it means to
be a man or a woman, apart from a reconciled
relationship with God in Christ. First, unless we have that,
(39:31):
nothing else is going to make sense about our identity,
and also nothing else is going to make sense about
our relationships. And relationships are a huge part of forming
our sense of who we are. That is also by
God's design. So all the way back in the beginning,
we see God created the world. We know that. But interestingly,
(39:52):
he creates this set of binaries. These twos. You've got
the sun and the moon. You've got night and day.
And then we get to humanity and we have a
male one and a female one. And what we see
in the first chapter of Genesis is there are two expressions,
if you like, of God's image a male and a female.
They together have this mandate to rule over all of
(40:15):
God's creation as his representatives, as his vice regents, as
some people have said. But the words for male and
female are the same words that you would use for
any other type of living being. There's a male type
and a female type. There's the one who inseminates and
there's the one who ingests states. Like we're just talking
(40:37):
simple biology. We move over to chapter two, though, and
even the name of God is relational, and the names
of humanity become far more relational as well. God is
not Elohim like he was in chapter one. He's Yahweh,
his personal name as he is in chapter two. But
we also have man and woman, and you see not
(41:00):
only the difference, but the interconnectedness. Now the man ish
in Hebrew is the woman Isha, or excuse me, the
man ish and the woman Isha. They are two separate
beings who are intimately related to each other. The woman
is like him of him, but not him. And what
(41:21):
we see throughout the creation narrative is this pattern not
only of interconnectedness, but that they individually image God as well.
But here's what our culture misses. It's not just that
we are individual image bearers of our Creator God, it's
that we were created also to image God in relationship.
(41:45):
And that's what Genesis one and two tell us as well.
And then the genius of the Holy Spirit. I mean,
you just you just figure how brilliant is God that
he prepared us even for this moment. Because the male
and female, uh, the Hebrew words for that in Genesis one,
(42:07):
there is a separate set of Hebrew words in Genesis two.
To be a male in Genesis one is to be
a man in Genesis two, to be a female in
Genesis one is to be a female, to be a
woman in Genesis two. So they correspond. In other words,
there's no category for a male who is a woman,
(42:29):
or for a female who is a man. God created
sex and gender to be in harmony. And really, this
is what it means not only to be a woman,
but to be a woman in God's image if we
are in right relationship with him. It is a holistic life.
It is a life of peace and harmony, not one
(42:51):
where we can divide or dissect some aspect of who
we are. Our redemption is total and that includes our bodies.
S1 (43:01):
Wow. Why do we need to know this? There are
a lot of people listening who are going. Not my problem.
So often for us in the church, unless we feel
the hot air coming from the mouth of the wolf,
we're not bothered. Why do we need to pay attention now?
S6 (43:15):
Oh, Janet, this is this is going to be the
issue in our culture. And and if we fail, if
we do not step up and have truth in clarity,
in love, we are going to miss not only a generation,
but I believe in 15 years we're going to have
a generation of detransitioners looking around saying, who is telling
(43:36):
me the truth when I didn't want to hear it? Oh,
it was the Christians. You mean they had an answer
not only for the issues going on in my soul
underneath the surface, but how I can relate to myself
physically and spiritually and emotionally. If we fail, we we
will have to stand before God and say we did
(43:57):
not proclaim the simple truths when they were offensive. We
did not proclaim the simple truths of Genesis one, two
and three when it was inconvenient. And we will miss
the opportunity to meet our culture with the gospel in
a way that it is desperate to find. I hope,
I pray, that we will rise up and simply speak
(44:20):
the truth and love to a generation that is searching
with no map, and they need the truth of Christ.
S1 (44:26):
Amen. Amen. Amen. Church rise. Doctor Katie McCoy's book To
Be a Woman. The confusion over female identity and how
Christians can respond. Absolutely outstanding. Katie. Thank you for a
memorable conversation. We'll see you next time, friends.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that encourages edifies, equips, enlightens,
and gently but consistently pushes you out there into the
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It's Ray Comfort's book. Why? Jesus? If you listen to
(00:22):
the broadcast with any regularity, you know we love Ray.
He is bold, unashamed of the gospel. And yet in
such a winsome way, he delivers a truth narrative to
the man in the street, so to speak. He's written
the book Why Jesus? To Teach You How to Walk Through,
by examples and through real conversations he's had on how
to share the gospel in exactly the same way. Listen,
(00:43):
we're called to go and tell. It's not an opt in,
opt out clause. That's where we're supposed to go. And
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So I want you to have Why Jesus as this
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(01:03):
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(01:45):
the Market with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:50):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:51):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:54):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S1 (01:56):
Extremely rare safety move by a mason.
S5 (01:59):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:17):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
How many times on this program designed to equip, edify,
encourage and gently but consistently push you out there into
the marketplace of ideas? How often have we discussed this
idea of gender identity? And who in the world would
have thought it would be the tip of the spear
against Orthodox Christianity? I didn't see that one coming. And
(02:38):
I've been hearing Babylon for years, so I am surprised.
But I'll tell you what. I also know if I'm
supposed to give a reason for the hope that resides
within me. If I'm called to contend for the faith,
I'd better know how to respond. When somebody comes to
me and says, I was assigned a gender at birth,
I have decided I was born in the wrong body.
And like a suit of clothes, you can change who
(03:00):
you are. Wow. That's really pretty interesting, because the transcendence
of that question speaks to a big issue. What does
it mean to be human? What does it mean to
be made in the image of God? And since we're
told I didn't tell you, Jesus did, I'm just quoting
his words. We're supposed to go out there into that mess,
that muck, that mire, where good is called evil. Evil
(03:21):
is called good boy. People are doing what's right in
their own eyes. You and I are supposed to go
out into that mess. And so when we get there,
I guarantee you they're going to be talking about this issue. Now,
how do we respond one of two ways you're equipped.
You've done your homework. You've studied to show yourselves approved
unto God, or you pull the covers over your head
and said, not my war. Nope, nope. I'm saved. I'm
just going to wait until he calls me home. Oh
(03:43):
how sad. We miss these wonderful opportunities to engage a
culture that's screaming out in pain. If we would just
hear behind the roar of the culture that cry, that
screaming out in pain. To know if God is real.
How I know him personally. And where in the world
do I find my significance? And we were fingerprinted to
find our significance in him. So don't sit this one out. This.
(04:03):
Thank you. Father. You could have put us in the 1700s.
Whether or not we were going to suit up and
break away from Mother England. We could have been called
to live in the 1800s when sin split this nation
stem to stern. Or we could live in the 21st
century where somebody says, I'm really a boy, but I
was born a girl. What would you choose? I know
it's a rhetorical question because you didn't have a choice,
but as long as we're here, let's learn what it
(04:25):
means to be a woman. And we're going to discuss
this hour the confusion over female identity and how Christians
can respond. Boy, I have a book in front of
me that I have read. I've dog eared, I have underlined,
I know I made every librarian just pass out, but
that's what a good book does. And it really is,
I think, a necessary tool in your Pilgrim's Progress right now.
Throw it in your backpack. You're going to need this
(04:46):
one because with brilliance, the author whom I will introduce
you to you in just a moment, really lays out
the cultural manifestations but takes us right to the theological
core of the issue. It's that intersection of what we
do on this program all the time of faith and culture,
doctrinal truths, applying the whole truth of the whole world
to the whole gospel. And, you know, once upon a time,
books like the one we're going to talk this hour never, ever,
(05:06):
ever would have been written. But then again, once upon
a time, we wouldn't be asking a sitting Supreme Court
Justice nominee, how do you define a woman? And she
wouldn't be able to do it. So welcome to the
days and age in which we have been called. Doctor
Katie McCoy is our guest. And I want to underscore
the doctrine because she got that doctorate in systematic theology,
no easy feat that she is, by the way, a
(05:28):
former seminary professor. She teaches and writes on the intersection
of theology, culture and women's issue and has co-authored a
book on the doctrine of humanity as part of the
theology for the People of God series put out by
BNA academic. Included among her research is discovering the pattern
of justice for women in Old Testament laws. When I
get five minutes to myself, I'm going to pursue that one,
by the way. But she joins us because she wrote
(05:50):
a wonderful book. It's got the X chromosome, but it's
covered with beautiful floral extensions, leaf extensions, really kind of
bespeaking the feminine aspect of that XX, which, by the way,
is the way God coded us. If you're a woman x,
y if you happen to be a man, to be
a woman. The confusion over female identity and how Christians
can respond oh Katie, have I been waiting for this one?
(06:11):
Thank you so much for being here. And I got
to start with the first question. Systematic theology. Not exactly
a light subject. It's hefty. Hefty, hefty. What made you
want to pursue that?
S6 (06:23):
Janet, it is so, so good to be with you.
I feel like I could just hang up now because
you've summed up the whole argument. You've really hit it.
The spiritual core of where we are today. Yeah, I
did a systematic theology at the encouragement of a lot
of professors, and it was kind of that that opportunity meets, um,
aptitude and really aptitude for me was just I enjoyed it.
(06:46):
I was kind of a nerd who liked her theology
classes and just had some wonderful professors pushing me in
that direction, and I didn't know what I was going
to do with it. I had no idea I would
be sitting here talking to Janet Parshall, talking about gender identity,
but I just walked through the door, uh, as it,
as it was right in front of me. And, uh,
it's kind of a good life lesson. You don't have
(07:08):
to have a five year plan. You just kind of
take the next step and let the Lord direct you
from there.
S1 (07:14):
Isn't that true? I always say, hang on to your
ticket stub because you don't know where you're going. I
just love that. You know, what I love about this
is that one tends to think particularly, and I really
smile with the word systematic theology because I'm married up
my husband the first year of our marriage said, honey,
this is what I want for Christmas. Schaffer Systematic Theology
didn't realize it was a boatload of books, and the
(07:34):
guy has gone through it more than once now. I
am the beneficiary of his gift of wisdom that he's got.
But it's the propensity, when you talk about systematic theology,
is to think you've got the speckled glasses on that
sit on the bridge of your nose and its dusty books,
and you sit in a dark library somewhere. And what
you are is the living proof that it's the application
of real word answers to real world questions. It's applied Christianity,
(07:59):
it's apologetics. It's being able to say Amen on Sunday
and not looking like a deer in the headlights on Monday.
Taking what he says and applying it to the world
around us. So I think God's called you for such
a time as this, to take bedrock, solid Christian orthodoxy
and then apply it to the absolute total confusion out
there that's roaring around our little tents and the churches,
by the way, not immune from this. So this is
(08:21):
not just a cultural it is a theological conversation as
well that you break down the book. Somebody who's gotten
a PhD obviously knows how to do research and categorize
and outline and do it all in a systematic form.
And that's what you've done. But just sister to sister
is a philosophical question. Did you see this coming?
S6 (08:38):
Yes and no. So I had been studying this, um,
when it was very much on the fringes, kind of
related to feminist history and women's studies, and at the time,
it was really kind of an outlier. There were a
few stories that were kind of attention grabbing, almost clickbait, like,
I can't believe this is happening. But gradually it became
(09:01):
more and more to the center, and all of a
sudden we're looking around going, what has happened to the world?
It has changed overnight.
S1 (09:08):
Yeah, it sure has. And center, I think, is such
an important word because this is not a sidebar story.
This isn't fringe. Every single day of the week, I
don't care what your favorite news source is. This topic
is in there somewhere. Now, brothers and sisters, we're not
going to sit this one out. We're going to get
off that diet of milk. We're going to move to meat.
We're going to get some spiritual heft, and we're going
(09:28):
to learn how to winsomely engage the culture. On the question,
what does it mean to be a woman back after this?
In today's world, people are more confused than ever about
(09:49):
truth and meaning. That's why I've chosen Why Jesus by
Ray comfort is this month's truth tool. Discover why Jesus
is the only path to everlasting life, and learn how
to confidently share that hope with others. As for your
copy of Why Jesus, when you give a gift of
any amount to in the market, call 877. 58 that's
877 Janet 58 or go to. In the market with
Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Katie McCoy. I'm going
(10:14):
to underscore that doctorate because she worked hard to get it,
by the way. And it happens to be in systematic theology.
And we are the better for her writing and her teaching.
She talks about how faith and theology and culture and
women's issue all intersect with each other, and then comes
out and teaches us where we can stand on bedrock,
solid Christian orthodoxy. So she was led to write the
book To Be a Woman, the confusion over female identity
(10:38):
and how Christians can respond. By the way, for the record, Katie,
as you can figure out already is very much involved
in women's studies and women's teachings, but the principles that
we are talking about apply straight across the board. So
this is not a gender specific conversation. Gentlemen, come back
into the room, please. This is for all of us.
This is understanding that transcendent question about what does it
mean to be human. You start out the book this way,
(10:58):
and I want to just touch on it briefly, because
maybe it's because being here in Washington, D.C., we're saturated
with stats and white papers. But when you start looking
at the uptick of people who are dealing now with
this issue, it's like 4,000%. It is the working definition
of what a cultural contagion is. Talk to me about that.
S6 (11:16):
Yeah. All of a sudden in seemingly just a decade
or or two, it has all flipped in a way
that has even social scientists and professionals scratching their heads
trying to understand what has happened. So this idea of
gender dysphoria, which simply means that your biological sex and
your gender identity, or your sense of yourself as a
(11:37):
man or a woman, that they're out of alignment and
that's been around for thousands of years. We can actually
find in the ancients that this existed, but it was
incredibly rare, and it typically manifested among natal males. So
biological boys often between that two and four years old.
And overwhelmingly, once they grew into puberty, it it sort
(12:01):
of ironed itself out. Once puberty hit the the child
came to align with the gender that corresponded to his
biological sex. However, now it has all flipped not only genders,
but age groups. So now it is overwhelmingly teenage girls,
usually that middle school, high school, and then even college
aged young women. And they professed no previous experience of
(12:26):
gender dysphoria. So we have professionals trying to figure out
what has happened, and some are looking at it honestly
saying there are ingredients in the culture that are causing
this and creating it. And other people say they've been
there all along. We've just now evolved as a society
where people are now safe to come out of their
(12:46):
shell and be their authentic selves. And here we are
in Pride Month, and you have likely seen no shortage
of that phrase being your authentic self. And anything that
gets in the way of that is, well, we've got
to get rid of it. So we are confronting, um,
kind of the confluence of so many different ideas just
in this question.
S1 (13:07):
Well, first of all, thank you, father, for not allowing
me to be my authentic self. It just rail against
that phrase because if you understand the scriptures, I am
a great sinner in need of a great Savior, if
I can quote Newton. And so. But we'll get into
that in just a moment, because you talk about some
of the isms that really have opened the door to this,
by the way, the idea of they were there all along,
(13:28):
now they're just free to come out. That is a
ploy I've seen in Washington for decades where in order
to boost the numbers, in order to impact public policy
and funding, you have to look like it's a major problem, right?
Or a major issue that requires the government's full attention.
So you simply say, and there's no way to prove it.
I mean, it's not objective. It's not a metric you
can measure. They were there all along. So now they're
just free to come out, or you've got some kind
(13:50):
of societal pressure that makes you think you have to
do it. I mean, really, when a preschooler says you
can be a boy or you can be a girl
who's grooming, who's recruiting. So these are just, again, the
manifestations of all the stuff that's going on. What I love, though,
is that you do a kind of flyover on the
isms that we find in the marketplace of ideas that are,
in fact, contributing to how one gains secularly outside the
(14:12):
world of God's truth and His Word, how we gain
a self, a sense of ourself. And so you talk
about the impacts of postchristianity and postmodernity, and I'm glad
you draw a distinction between the two, because I think
for a while and maybe we could, but things have
changed rapidly. We kind of amalgamated postchristianity and postmodernity. Now
they're separate, distinct, and now we are post-truth. If you
(14:33):
take the Oxford Dictionary word of the year. So talk
to me about those two.
S6 (14:37):
Yeah. So postchristianity essentially means that we like some of
the benefits of Christianity, but we don't like any of
its claims. So we like ideas like kindness and generosity,
the equality of every person, no matter what their social status.
Those are things, by the way, that the West inherited
(14:57):
from the influence of Christianity. But once we start talking
about things like Jesus is Lord, we are sinners in
need of a Savior. There is a real heaven and hell,
and we can only be forgiven through Christ alone. Well,
people don't like that, and they especially don't like when
we start talking about what the Bible has to say
about how we live our lives in terms of sexual ethics.
(15:19):
Everybody likes Jesus till he starts making demands on their lives.
But then post-modernism is something that's happening in tandem with
our post-Christian culture. But post-modernism says that even if truth existed,
even if absolute truth was a thing, we are incapable
of accessing it because we are just finite human beings
(15:41):
influenced by our culture. So. So the best we can
do is acknowledge that our culture has created these stories,
these narratives, in order to keep order. But in light
of that, any religion, any authority group that says they
have the market on truth, well, not only would they
be lying, but they're just trying to control you. It's
(16:02):
all about power. And that leads into some other isms.
As you as you said, especially in our American culture
that has helped set the stage for this transgender moment.
S1 (16:14):
Yeah. Let me linger here for a minute, and then
we'll look at some of those other isms. First of all,
I take umbrage with those who think that Christians can't
walk and chew gum at the same time. And maybe again,
it's my years here as a war correspondent in Babylon.
But I think that we can draw a distinction between
people and policy. The people who struggle, it must be
absolutely hell. And I use that word theologically to look
(16:35):
in a mirror and not see how God has made
you not see the reflection of Imago Dei, that I
am fearfully and wonderfully made, to the point where the
colors of my eyes and my sex were designed before
time began by God himself. That must be absolutely awful.
But I can draw a distinction between wanting to offer
that that warm cup of encouragement, compassion, the ears that
(16:55):
need to hear the pain, and the arm around the
shoulder that needs to walk you through this journey, and
the public policy that advocates for this or the contentions
that continue to further it. So I want to ask
a question, Katie, if I can, and get the answer
when we get back, looking just at a transcendent, not
looking at the individual at its core, I see this
as a spirit of rebellion. It goes back to Genesis three.
(17:17):
Did God really say that he made man and woman?
How about you will be like God? You can determine
what your sex is. I'd love for you to take
a look at that question when we come back. Absolutely
fabulous book, in fact, the best on the topic. I'm
telling you in my classroom it would be required reading
to be a woman. The confusion over female identity and
(17:37):
how Christians can respond back after this. What an important
and timely conversation. Thank you Lord for raising up leaders
like Doctor Katie McCoy. She's written the book To Be
(17:57):
a Woman The confusion over female identity and How Christians
Can respond. So we were talking about the influence of
Postchristianity postmodernity, and I asked Katie just before the break
and again, understanding the pain and the compassion necessary to
minister to broken people. But when you just look at
this from a transcendent perspective, is there not, at its core,
(18:17):
a kind of spirit of rebellion for someone to make
the declaration I was assigned the wrong gender at birth
or sex at birth. We interchange those two all the
time is a declarative statement of rebellion because it's Nimrod
esque in its moment, where we basically raised a fist,
figuratively to God and said, you made a mistake. I'm
going to determine, am I right or wrong on that?
S6 (18:39):
That's exactly right. And as harsh as it sounds, we
all do that, right? Anyone who has lived, has, has
sinned against God and said, um, not only do I
want to be like God, but I can determine my
own boundaries and I want to self determine the limits
of my existence. And so at its core, and again,
we talk about like the cultural deception and the influences
(19:02):
and factors contributing to this. But someone who says I
was born in the wrong body is looking at how
God created them, not only defying their creator, but then
saying how God created me is holding me back from
my true self. That is everything that is said and
reasoned in the garden. You know, Satan plays this deception
(19:26):
a thousand different ways, but he is terribly uncreative. But
what we're seeing now is that we have technology, we
have philosophy, we have culture that has sort of evolved
in a different way, playing the same song, just in
a different verse. And so instead of recognizing that we
are in the image of God, people are now reconstructing
(19:50):
themselves to be in the image of their self-perception.
S1 (19:53):
Wow. Wow. And this requires a sophisticated Christian response. It
also gives rise to the third element, which is this declaration,
this ridiculous declaration that you're supposed to live your truth.
You and I could wax for the next hour about
how philosophically vacuous this is, Katie. If you have your
truth and my truth, which one transcends mine, cancels out yours,
yours cancels out mine. And we pretend that truth is
(20:15):
not objective and knowable and applies to all people in
all times, in all places. So live your life. Live
your truth. We that would be, it seemed to me,
the anticipated outcome of this kind of self aggrandizing thinking, right?
S6 (20:29):
That's that's exactly it. And it's those three word mantras,
you know, live your truth. You do. You follow your heart.
And we have all imbibed this cultural message that you
can be whatever you want to be. And anything external
like a religious authority, parental influence, society. If they go
(20:50):
against that self-perception, not only are they wrong, but they
are oppressive. You should get them out of your lives.
In fact, it even extends to your own physical body.
Your external self does not even have a right to
determine and overcome your self-perception. That is the degree to
(21:10):
which we have, as a society, been drinking down this idea.
The philosophical idea is called expressive individualism, not just individualism.
Like how if you are a Western person, you're an individualist,
If you are an American, you're a super individualist. But
expressive individualism says that your true self is found in
(21:32):
your feelings and the way to be a happy, whole,
fulfilled human being is to follow your emotions no matter
what they are and no matter where they take you.
S1 (21:42):
Yeah. Wow. So good. So, uh, let me address the.
By the way, when books are as good as yours,
I'm so frustrated because I'm just going to barely skate
over the top of this ice pond, and there's so
much under the surface. So I'm going to say to
my friends what I always say in a book that
really hits me between the eyes, this is not a
book report. If I piquing your curiosity, if I'm stirring
your intellectual desire to know more, I will have done
(22:04):
my job. But please know that everything we're talking about,
there's a whole lot more where that came from. I
just want to put that out there. So let me
linger on what you just said, which is the £800
gorilla in the room, and why I think Oxford was
right when they chose the word of the year is post-truth.
We flipped the idea that now the affective what we
feel supersedes the cognitive, what we know and what we
(22:24):
know doesn't supersede what we feel anymore. It's my feeling
dictates and contains the contents of my truth. The £800
gorilla is do we need to do a little chromosomal
test right now so you can feel all you want to?
You can decide all you want to, what you want,
but there is still the unbearable being of who you are.
X x x y. They've been in my town, marching
(22:47):
down the streets. Holding up signs that say follow the science.
Did they get lost?
S6 (22:53):
It's so ironic, isn't it? Because this is an ideology
that completely does away with empirical reality. Who you are
physically is considered completely immaterial to your true self, to
the point that even medicine. Now, it's like, what are
you going to do now when when some of these
(23:13):
ideas come up against medical practice? You know, a male
and a female have to have different doses of the
same medicine because their bodies are different. What happens when
we start talking about procedures and surgeries that that run, um,
run afoul, frankly, of this post-truth culture where you can't
(23:34):
get around the physical reality and how it affects you.
This is where the Christian worldview, if we can kind
of do the 40,000 foot view of it, though, this
is where the Christian worldview is so powerful for our
cultural moment because our God physically came, physically lived, physically died,
was physically raised, physically ascended, is physically in the unmitigated
(23:59):
presence of the father, is going to physically raise us
with resurrection bodies. The body matters to God and the
future of humanity is embodied.
S1 (24:11):
Wow. Such rich, good conversation. Boy, I hope you got
your thinking caps on and really just ask the Lord
to just make you hungry to know more because you
are going to go out there, right? John 17. My
prayer is not that you take them out of the world.
So when you go out there, because I don't know
how you tell people about the gospel unless you're out there,
trust me, they're going to want these kinds of questions
(24:31):
answered before you tell them about the one who formed
them and made them to be a woman. Doctor Katie
McCoy's brand new book already halfway through. Glad we got
more time right after this. What's the goal of in
(24:54):
the market? I'll tell you in the market equips men
and women to think critically and act biblically. Why do
we do this? So that we can be confident when
speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are you willing
to stand with me? Become a partial partner today, and
enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while making an
impact for the Kingdom? Call 877 Janet 58 or go
online to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Just joining us.
(25:19):
The warmest of welcomes. But let me tell you, as
a friend, you need to hear the first half of
this conversation. So go to in the market with Janet
Parshall on the left hand side. Bunch of words. Look
for these two. They sit right next to each other.
Past programs clicking on download this hour in its entirety.
You can do either the two hours we do every
day going back a year. But you do want to
get this conversation from the very beginning. We have gone
(25:43):
down the rabbit hole, Alice. We don't know what we
believe anymore about. What is the truth standing right before us,
you ask? I referenced before, will you ask a Supreme
Court nominee what is a woman? And she cannot give
an answer. We've got secretaries of Health and Human Services
who can't answer that question. We've changed words in our
government documents. Moms are not moms anymore. It's birthing persons.
(26:04):
I mean, really, I could spend the rest of this
hour just telling you how government documents have changed because
we can't answer or recognize, more to the point, the
truth standing before us. So Doctor Katie McCoy, who has
a PhD in Systematic Theology and is a former seminary professor,
loves to write and teach about all the things that
intersect theology, culture, and women's issues. And she's put together
(26:26):
a fabulous book called To Be a Woman The confusion
over Female identity and How Christians Can Respond. But even
before we get to the sound theology that's in the book,
this book could be read by anybody just to look
at where we are today and how we got there
in the first place. So I want to linger a
little bit more on some of these isms that sort
of pushed us to this place, because it's kind of
(26:47):
like the spinal column of the book. And so we've
talked about several things we could discuss if we wanted to,
how it's an attempt to try to disrupt society. I
think that's why we've become a fertile field for critical theory,
because it's a way of destroying, tearing down. That's what
would be what we've known before. Obviously, the idea about power,
this is very much a part of this power says
(27:07):
I'm going to go to target when you take those
clothes out and I'm going to threaten you with bombs,
or I'm going to threaten you with an economic boycott
if you don't put those products back in the shelf.
That's their idea of power. Mm. I think we heard
that somewhere in a garden with a tree. But I digress.
I want to talk about identity and intersectionality because, Katie,
you know this word, but a whole lot of folks
listening all across the country right now kind of hear
(27:28):
it in passing, in that panoply of confusing, post-truth words
like critical theory. And they don't know what intersectionality is.
What is the intersection, no pun intended, between identity and intersectionality?
S6 (27:42):
Yeah, this is one of those concepts that has had
it's become very ingrained in our social consciousness, whether or
not we even understand what it is. So intersectionality began, um,
as more of a legal theory of trying to understand
how different people's multiple minority statuses intersected and gave them
(28:03):
a different experience in American culture. And when I talk
about intersectionality, I always like to distinguish between the descriptive
and the Prescriptive aspects. So the descriptive is looking at
various aspects of a person's demographic makeup. So their ethnicity, um,
perhaps if they have a disability. And then of course
(28:26):
in this LGBTQ conversation they'll talk about sex and gender.
But what happens there is it goes a step further
to the prescriptive aspect, because we could recognize how two
different people with their backgrounds may have had two very
different experiences in American society. But intersectionality also has that
(28:46):
prescriptive aspect. And it says that the person who occupies
the greatest number of minority statuses has the greatest market
on truth. And if we really want to discover what
truth is, we can't know that objectively, as something outside
of us, we have to listen to people who have
(29:08):
a perspective that we don't And elevate them. And this
is where we also hear these ideas like decentering the
majority and bringing to the center or elevating a new perspective,
a different perspective. This goes into these ideas of social
(29:29):
deconstruction or cultural deconstruction, and it even starts extending as
we bleed into some other of these isms in that,
in that chapter to things like the economy, the family,
other things in society that, uh, are, are bedrocks or
just foundational aspects of our lives. And it views them
with suspicion because and only because they are the majority.
S1 (29:54):
Wow. There's an intersection here. Again, no pun intended, between
what we were talking about before, because what we hear,
particularly in the beautiful way in which you just described this,
is the transcendence of the experience that somehow the experience
dictates the truth. And when you do that, that's why
it's my truth, not your truth. Live your truth. ET cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. But that's the wonderful thing about truth.
(30:15):
It is objective. It's knowable. It is obtainable for all people.
So if your experience dictates, we're going to get into
trouble because that's not protective. And it can change from
people group to people group or generation to generation or
country to country. If you use that as your metric,
that somehow that's power or that's a way of redefining
(30:36):
the truth, you open a Pandora's box, do you not?
And not only that, but you trample underfoot the idea
that truth is objective and can be known by anyone.
S6 (30:45):
Oh, completely. And to to look at the effects of it.
Just look at generation Z. You know, generation Z is
really the first generation that has grown up truly in
this post-Christian culture. Um, they don't have, uh, even like,
like me, a millennial, kind of a prior framework of
when America was a very different culture and how it
(31:06):
related to some of those concepts of family and religion,
but Gen Z true post-Christian Americans. And there's two factors,
and I don't think that these are a coincidence. First
of all, widespread gender confusion and widespread anxiety and mental
health crises. These two things are linked. We are having
(31:27):
a generation trying to answer these foundational questions of who
they are, how they find fulfillment, what the whole point
of their existence is. And it is unmoored, untethered, disconnected
from anything beyond themselves. So they're answering these deeply transcendent
questions with nothing more than their feelings to guide them.
(31:50):
And and no wonder we have a mental health crisis.
One of our government officials was talking about the relationship
between social media and mental health among young people. And
I thought, you know, that's great, but it's incomplete because
until you're going to look at how social media has
Proliferated gender confusion among young people. You are only scratching
(32:11):
the surface, and I would even dare to say, willfully
ignoring the evidence.
S1 (32:17):
Yes. Let me underscore the wolfling again. Um, I'm not cynical,
but what one can be after many decades in Washington, D.C.,
but I've sat through all the hearings on the Hill
when they've talked about the damage that some of these
platforms do, particularly to adolescent and pre-adolescent kids. And then
you have to stop and say, okay, it isn't like
you are short on the information. It's whether or not
(32:37):
you have the political will. And then you start looking
at the Bible verse. It says, the love of money
is the root of all evil. And you look at
both sides of the aisle and then they're taking donations
from big tech companies. And oh, I'm wringing my hands
and oh, what? Don't we have a problem? I'm not
going to be the one to introduce or vote for
that legislation. It will impact my campaign fund. So that's
the seamy underbelly of Washington. But it really does go
to the idea that we know the facts are the
(33:00):
science question I asked earlier. These are indisputable, self-evident truths Truce.
Whether or not we have the will to do it
is a whole nother question. And then let me touch
on this. You could write a doctoral thesis on this,
which is the idea of what exactly constitutes human rights.
And I'm so glad you picked this up in the
book that somehow trans rights are human rights. Now, to
this day, the DSM, the diagnostic Bible, still identifies, um,
(33:23):
this this condition as a mental health issue. Now they're trying,
like the APA did back in the 70s, to dial
down the diagnosis and make it more to be just
a norm for the human condition. But if we start
saying that trans rights are human rights, then the right
of polyamory is right. The act of necrophilia is right.
The right of pedophilia is right. In other words, we
(33:45):
have to have a very grown up conversation of what
really constitutes human rights. And it seems to me we're
we're sitting at the table yelling at each other. We
haven't had a good conversation about that. Give me your thoughts.
S6 (33:58):
Yeah. So two things. One, uh, following the sexual revolution, uh,
sex became disconnected from any type of covenant relationship and
even responsibility. And so the only factor that determines whether
or not a sexual relationship or a sexual identity is
good or bad is consent. And so that's what we
(34:18):
see with polyamory, with, um, homosexual or same sex marriage.
And uh, what we've not seen yet, at least as openly,
is the advocacy for pedophilia or pederasty. Now, I say
yet because it is coming, it's happening. In fact, one
of the things that that is happening in this, uh,
(34:39):
if you want to call it a community, they don't
like the word pedophile, because that is that sounds very
clinical and that's very judgy. And so let's give it
a new term. Why don't we call it minor attracted persons.
And this is a push. In fact some of them
are wanting their own place in the gender flag now. Um,
but but it's all hinging on this idea that that
(35:02):
also should be a socially and politically recognized identity. Couple
that though Janet, with some other concerning things we're seeing,
for instance, in the United Nations, the UN, they came
out with some type of study saying that children, those
under 18, are capable of consenting to a sexual relationship. Now,
(35:24):
that had at least the promise when I first thought, well,
is this about child brides and trying to help, you know,
young girls in Nepal say that they have the ability
to consent. So therefore we should respect that ability to consent.
Oh no no no no. Right. This was all about
LGBT issues. This was all about gender identity. So here
we have the UN opening the door for a legally
(35:47):
recognized pedophilic or pederastic relationship. One more note that's that's
worth knowing for your listeners. When you mentioned the DSM
and how it's relating to concepts like gender dysphoria and
whether we call it a diagnosis. Here's where I think
they're always going to keep it, because if they can't
(36:07):
get a diagnosis, then they can't have a health insurance
company pay for the treatments and the surgeries. Again, it
all goes back to money.
S1 (36:17):
Yeah, exactly. And but it also does put them on
the horns of a dilemma because you want those funds. Wow.
That's utterly amazing. And you know, I reported on this
program about that UN report, which is ridiculous. Another £800
gorilla in the room. What happened to the best interests
of the child? A lot of these kids, by the way,
getting these surgeries. Can't vote, can't buy alcohol, can't serve
in the military, but can get mutilated. Think about that
(36:39):
back after this. I just love this book. Full disclosure
I got to tell you that I read an awful
lot of books in the work that God has called
me to do, and boy, the ones that make me
stop and just go back again and again are the
(36:59):
ones that I really want to promote on this broadcast,
so that you and I, well, we can be prepared
for what is God, what God has called us to
do today and a million years. I'm just a simple
Bible church kid, okay? I never thought in a million
years we, the followers of Jesus Christ and contending for
the faith, would have to explain what it means to
be a woman. And that question, by the way, yes,
it can be answered biologically, but far more profoundly it
(37:21):
can be answered and must be answered theologically. Are we
ready for this? Well, I don't know. That's why I
want this conversation to go now. And there I'm going
to repeat myself. There is a ton more in this
book that even the gift of one hour of doctor
McCoy's time. I can't begin to plumb the depth. So
you get the book, you read it, and you be
prepared because your granddaughter, your cousin, your niece, your neighbor,
(37:42):
somebody you know is going to come to you and say,
I'm born in the wrong body. And then how are
you going to be able to answer, understanding where they're
coming from and how we, through a grace narrative, give
that winsome, eloquent response of the gospel? Katy's book is
called To Be a Woman the confusion over female identity
and how Christians can respond. There's a ton more of
the cultural stuff, which I gobble up all the time,
(38:02):
because it's part of my transcultural missionary experience. I want
to know what they're thinking when I get out there
and how to respond. But Katie, I wish with all
my heart I could say hasn't touched the church. It's
exactly the opposite, because a whole lot of those books
that I'm reviewing, it's like, what Bible are you reading?
So this stuff is working its way into the church
house door now, where, I mean, I read an article
by a Christian just the other day, why shouldn't we
(38:24):
hang the gay flag? Uh, okay. Let you think about
that for a little while. So now we're beginning to say,
I mean, look, I give you the Church of England.
We're going to put a committee together so we can
discover what it means to be a woman in the
Scripture and maybe, perhaps consider changing the pronouns of Scripture.
This is called mission creep. So let's talk about going
on into the church and how we discover what it
(38:46):
means theologically to find our identity, whether it be male
or female. This big question of what it means to
be human can be found within the pages of Scripture.
Where do I start my search? And why did God,
in his sovereignty and his love toward us, want us
to have the sense of being in him inside and out?
S6 (39:07):
So we have to go all the way back to
the beginning. And and we want to preface every conversation
as we're talking about what it means to be a
male or a female, creating the image of God with
understanding that we can't possibly understand what it means to
be a man or a woman, apart from a reconciled
relationship with God in Christ. First, unless we have that,
(39:31):
nothing else is going to make sense about our identity,
and also nothing else is going to make sense about
our relationships. And relationships are a huge part of forming
our sense of who we are. That is also by
God's design. So all the way back in the beginning,
we see God created the world. We know that. But interestingly,
(39:52):
he creates this set of binaries. These twos. You've got
the sun and the moon. You've got night and day.
And then we get to humanity and we have a
male one and a female one. And what we see
in the first chapter of Genesis is there are two expressions,
if you like, of God's image a male and a female.
They together have this mandate to rule over all of
(40:15):
God's creation as his representatives, as his vice regents, as
some people have said. But the words for male and
female are the same words that you would use for
any other type of living being. There's a male type
and a female type. There's the one who inseminates and
there's the one who ingests states. Like we're just talking
(40:37):
simple biology. We move over to chapter two, though, and
even the name of God is relational, and the names
of humanity become far more relational as well. God is
not Elohim like he was in chapter one. He's Yahweh,
his personal name as he is in chapter two. But
we also have man and woman, and you see not
(41:00):
only the difference, but the interconnectedness. Now the man ish
in Hebrew is the woman Isha, or excuse me, the
man ish and the woman Isha. They are two separate
beings who are intimately related to each other. The woman
is like him of him, but not him. And what
(41:21):
we see throughout the creation narrative is this pattern not
only of interconnectedness, but that they individually image God as well.
But here's what our culture misses. It's not just that
we are individual image bearers of our Creator God, it's
that we were created also to image God in relationship.
(41:45):
And that's what Genesis one and two tell us as well.
And then the genius of the Holy Spirit. I mean,
you just you just figure how brilliant is God that
he prepared us even for this moment. Because the male
and female, uh, the Hebrew words for that in Genesis one,
(42:07):
there is a separate set of Hebrew words in Genesis two.
To be a male in Genesis one is to be
a man in Genesis two, to be a female in
Genesis one is to be a female, to be a
woman in Genesis two. So they correspond. In other words,
there's no category for a male who is a woman,
(42:29):
or for a female who is a man. God created
sex and gender to be in harmony. And really, this
is what it means not only to be a woman,
but to be a woman in God's image if we
are in right relationship with him. It is a holistic life.
It is a life of peace and harmony, not one
(42:51):
where we can divide or dissect some aspect of who
we are. Our redemption is total and that includes our bodies.
S1 (43:01):
Wow. Why do we need to know this? There are
a lot of people listening who are going. Not my problem.
So often for us in the church, unless we feel
the hot air coming from the mouth of the wolf,
we're not bothered. Why do we need to pay attention now?
S6 (43:15):
Oh, Janet, this is this is going to be the
issue in our culture. And and if we fail, if
we do not step up and have truth in clarity,
in love, we are going to miss not only a generation,
but I believe in 15 years we're going to have
a generation of detransitioners looking around saying, who is telling
(43:36):
me the truth when I didn't want to hear it? Oh,
it was the Christians. You mean they had an answer
not only for the issues going on in my soul
underneath the surface, but how I can relate to myself
physically and spiritually and emotionally. If we fail, we we
will have to stand before God and say we did
(43:57):
not proclaim the simple truths when they were offensive. We
did not proclaim the simple truths of Genesis one, two
and three when it was inconvenient. And we will miss
the opportunity to meet our culture with the gospel in
a way that it is desperate to find. I hope,
I pray, that we will rise up and simply speak
(44:20):
the truth and love to a generation that is searching
with no map, and they need the truth of Christ.
S1 (44:26):
Amen. Amen. Amen. Church rise. Doctor Katie McCoy's book To
Be a Woman. The confusion over female identity and how
Christians can respond. Absolutely outstanding. Katie. Thank you for a
memorable conversation. We'll see you next time, friends.
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