June 9, 2025 • 44 mins
Dr. Nathaniel Blake will join us to prove that even beyond the question of right and wrong, Christian sexual ethics simply provide a better way to love and live. The sexual revolution offered happiness and great sex—but Americans are increasingly lonely and unhappy, and they even report having less, and less satisfying, sex. Rather than providing fulfilling pleasure, sexual liberation has created a relational wasteland in which men and women are alienated from each other. Christian sexual morals are not a capricious killjoy but are rooted in human nature and direct us toward our good and the good of others. Join us for a fascinating conversation based in biblical Truth.
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S1 (00:00):
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(00:22):
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(00:42):
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(01:03):
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S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a of the.
S4 (01:58):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (02:03):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S3 (02:21):
Hi friends.
S1 (02:21):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you
so much for choosing to spend the hour with me.
We're going to talk about sex. Okay. You can pick
yourself up off the floor, because that cacophony you just
heard that represents the marketplace of ideas. Oh, trust me,
one of the busiest booths out there in that marketplace
is the one that's selling sex. Yeah, to the lowest bidder, unfortunately.
(02:42):
And by the way, if you hang around long enough,
you're going to hear things like, if it feels good,
do it, let it all hang out. Choice, but no consequences.
And if you get pregnant a take this little pill,
it'll make all your problems go away. Which raises an interesting,
transcendent question, particularly for those of us who are followers
of Christ. Do you think that those kinds of choices
and those kinds of outcomes leave the person more satisfied,
(03:05):
more full of life, the abundant life that Christ has
promised us, more understanding who they are being made in
the image of God. Imago dei. Or did it leave
people brokenhearted and wanting more? And is there a Christian
ethic when it comes to sexual mores? And if there is,
what do we do to protect it, advance it? And
(03:25):
most importantly of all, apply it to ourselves? That's what
we're going to talk about this hour. And Doctor Nathaniel
Blake is going to be our teacher. He is a
fellow in the Life and Family Initiative at the Ethics
and Public Policy Center. Wonderful group, by the way. His
research interests include American political theory, Christian political thought, and
the intersection of natural law and philosophical hermeneutics. His published
(03:47):
scholarship has included works on Alasdair MacIntyre, Russell Kirk, and J.R.R. Tolkien.
But he joins us today with a brand new book
with a most intriguing and accurate title, sadly called victims
of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Nathaniel,
the Warmest of Welcomes. Thank you so much for being
with us. Thank you even more for a very timely
(04:07):
and important book. And it really kind of begs a
starting question, which at some level seems sort of pedantic
and almost sophomoric, but I think it's important. Out of
all the things that you could be writing about, why
would you go back and review the sexual revolution, particularly
at this point in the culture's history?
S5 (04:23):
Well, thank you very much for having me on. And
I think the reason to review it is because we're
at a bit of a cultural inflection point where we're
seeing people, even in the bastions of cultural liberalism. The
New York Times, The Atlantic, admit that something isn't right,
that there is a problem with our culture, with our
(04:44):
sexual culture. Now, they don't have a lot of answers.
They're kind of afraid of the answers. But I think
this gives Christians an opportunity to reach out to a
culture that is lonely, that is hurting, and where people
are in need of recognizing the truth about how men
and women are supposed to live in accordance with God's design,
in a union that both unites the two halves of
(05:09):
the human race and provides for the future of the
human race.
S1 (05:13):
Amen. Early on in the book, you say this is
a Christian book written to Christians first, but it's not
a work of theology, nor is it a Bible study.
It is certainly not a personal testimony. This book is
a social critique grounded in the Christian natural law tradition.
The argument, in its simplest form, is that Christian sexual
morality is not arbitrary, but directs us toward our good
(05:34):
and that of others departing from it harm self and society.
Christian sexual mores have always been imperfectly observed, but they
are now scorned and derided. The sexual revolution has won,
but its promises were empty. That's so insightful on your part, Nathaniel.
I thank you for that. So when you talk about
it being for those who don't know, and you're talking
to a national audience that goes from Guam to the
(05:55):
Cayman Islands and a bunch of spots in between. So
you say that this is a social critique that's grounded
in Christian natural law. So for people who don't understand that,
break that down. What do you mean when you say
Christian natural law?
S5 (06:08):
Well, we see it explained by Paul in the book
of Romans, but simply put, is that God has created
a moral order, and despite our sinfulness, we still see
pieces of that moral order. It's not completely effaced. This
is something that's affirmed by Catholics, by reformed theologians such
as Calvin and Luther. And it, simply put, is that, yes,
(06:31):
there is a moral truth, and we can know a
bit of it. Now we fall short of it even
on our best days. And we don't fully understand it necessarily,
because our reason is also imperfect and limited. But therefore
we can still look and say, yeah, there's a right
and wrong. There is genuine human flourishing and genuine human harms,
(06:52):
genuine human degradation. And we can to some extent see
how these this natural order God created comes to fruition,
either for good or ill in the world and in
our lives.
S1 (07:04):
Yeah, absolutely. Let me help our listeners gain your sense
of a timeline when you talk about the sexual revolution.
In truth, if you wanted to be accurate, you could
say it started when we walked out of the garden
and we've been rebelling and choosing our own way. There's
a way that seemeth right on demand, the Bible says,
but the end thereof is death. And so you could
say that there's been a kind of sexual revolt against
(07:26):
God since sin came into the world. But if you're
going to drop it into a cultural context from the
way in which you write, when you talk about the
sexual revolution, give me the timeline where you see that starting.
S5 (07:37):
I would say that, well, yeah, you point out it
goes back to human sinfulness. We've always wanted to indulge
ourselves and get away with it. But I think there
was a point where we thought we could, as a culture,
get away with it. We had more wealth. We had
the pill. So it seemed like pregnancy wasn't as much
of a concern. We had penicillin. STDs were no longer
(07:58):
as scary. So really, that period of time in the
mid 20th century, suddenly it seemed plausible that we didn't
need the old rules. We could get away with it.
We were rich enough, we were technologically advanced enough, and
if it felt good, maybe we should do it.
S1 (08:14):
Yeah, yeah. And you know, when you take that ideas,
those couple of points that you so perfectly pointed out about,
there was choice. But we could eradicate the consequences. We're
seeing it in its most nefarious form with the abortion
pill today, are we not?
S5 (08:27):
We are we? Despite the great victory in the Dobbs
decision overturning Roe versus Wade, we still have a problem.
Not only is abortion legal in many states, but the
Biden administration, before Biden left office, put in place policies
that effectively allow for the mail ordering of abortion pills
(08:49):
across state lines, and the FDA has not yet. They're
going to review questions on this, they've said, but they
have not yet rescinded that Biden policy. And so we
see the attack on human life, not simply in the
abortion clinic, but something that's being spread through the mail,
through the Federal Post Office.
S1 (09:09):
Exactly. Which, by the way, Nathaniel, makes your book all
the more prescient and timely. The book is called victims
of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Doctor
Nathaniel Blake is a fellow in the Life and Family
Initiative at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. We're just
getting started on what I think is one of the
most thought provoking books on Christian sexual mores I've read
(09:29):
in a long time. Stick around so much more coming
your way right after this. God uses so much in
the world around us to point to him. Our sense
of wonder is really about knowing him. That's why I've chosen.
(09:51):
Have you ever wondered, as this month's Truth tool? This
book is for all who have looked up at a
million stars in the night sky and just wondered, ask
for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you
give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go
to in the market with Janet Parshall. Jackson Nathaniel Blake
(10:14):
is with us. He is a fellow in the Life
and Family Initiative at the Ethics and Public Policy Center.
A brilliant group of people work there. By the way,
he's the author of the brand new book victims of
the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Let me
go to something else you say in the introduction. And
there's so much in the book, but there's also a
rich part to the introduction as well. You point out
what the Apostle Paul notes, and you harken to Kyle
(10:37):
Harper in First Things, where he notes that for the
Apostle Paul, sexual morality was part of the proclamation of
a half hidden story of God's restoration of the created cosmos. Indeed,
for the early Christians, sexual morality was woven inseparably into
their whole effort to live rightly in the world. Sex,
by its essence, is entangled in the most fundamental questions
(10:58):
about the nature of the self and its relation to God.
I thought that was just brilliant. Can you break that
down for our listeners? What is Harper saying here?
S5 (11:06):
Well, so there's a few things, but we could begin
with the fact that in the curse we see the
division of the unity of male and female, instead of
solidarity between husband and wife. There's enmity, there's dependence, there's
resentment of that dependence. There's pain, there's suffering and labor.
So the sexual relation that was meant to be in
(11:29):
a union in marriage is broken apart. And what Christianity
proclaims is that we are to start to see the
restoration of that in this life through the sanctification of
the believer, but it also points us to something even greater,
something where we see sex and marriage represented as the
(11:52):
eschatological fulfillment. The church is the bride of Christ, so
marriage is both foundational for civilization. It's a very building block,
but it also directs us towards our very highest good
in the world that is to come, which is our
union with Christ. And this is profound imagery, but it
does get at something which is that we are meant
(12:14):
for love, for a fruitful love. Most of us are
called to those vocations of marriage and family. And when
we neglect that self-giving instead to pursue our own selfish interests,
we cut ourselves off from what we were meant for.
And we also rebel against the natural order that God
designed for us and for our own good.
S1 (12:38):
You know, let me linger here because I think this
is such a significant theological point, which is when you
think of the three institutions that God creates family, government,
the church in that order. The only one of the
three that's made in a place of perfection is the garden.
So it gives us a hint at how dear this
is to the heart of God. Second of all, and
you touched on this, Nathaniel, which is it really is
(12:58):
so many things. It isn't just companionship and procreation. It
is reflective of the profundity of Christ's love for us.
He's the bridegroom. The church is the bride. So this
has such significant and transcendent meaning other than just what we,
when we look at it here, say yes to the
dress or marry at first sight. Those are all trivializing
(13:19):
the profundity of what God created. I say that because
I often say to my friends, when we discuss so
many of these issues that really are heartbreaking at its
core is that in some respects, this is a kind
of spiritual warfare. It seems to me that Satan just
abhors the idea of a strong marriage between one man
and one woman, not only because of the stability it
offers the culture, but because it's so reflective of the
(13:40):
relationship that Christ has for us. Do you agree?
S5 (13:43):
I think so. I think that when we see the
attack on marriage and family, we see the disruption of
what was meant to be the most fundamental, the most
in many ways the most fulfilling in this life, human
institution and relationship. As you point out, marriage was created
before the fall. It was meant for us in this life,
(14:06):
in this world, for our fulfillment. And that is because
we are made for love. We are made for other
people and God, of course, ultimately in communion with him
to know and enjoy him forever. But not just in
this life, but in the world that is to come.
We are made for other people and in this life
marriage is an enormous part of that. For many of
(14:27):
us who are again, most Christians are called to the
vocation of marriage and to neglect, that is, to ignore
what is meant to be the most intimate That relationships
that humans can have in this life with each other.
S1 (14:41):
Mhm. Mhm. So insightful. Um, well if you're looking at
the statistics, if we just start looking at black ink
on white paper post-sexual revolution. Although I would argue that
we're not at the end by any stretch of the imagination.
We just have different iterations. But it's still continuing. As
you note in the introduction, the sexual revolution has won.
And we're seeing all kinds of anomalies that represent the
(15:03):
truth of that. But let me go back a little bit.
And that is if this revolution was good, any revolution
for that matter, it seems to me you'd be able
to have an objective metric to say the outcomes were
so beneficial to culture writ large. What do we know
about the sexual revolution? I do know from where I
sit that the uptick in people who are cohabitating is
through the roof, bigger than it was in the 60s.
(15:23):
Now people are talking about starter marriages where they'll try
it out for a while, dump that spouse, then move
to the one they really wanted to do, or the
idea of just saying, I'm not interested in marriage of
all because I'm self-actualizing. And so I'll just have a
string of relationships as long as I'm serially monogamous in
my my lack of being monogamous in a, in a
(15:46):
marriage between a man and a woman. So in other words,
I'm not seeing the fruit of their labor. Am I
missing something here?
S5 (15:53):
No. Well, I think it is. What we're seeing is
the self destructive nature of sin and selfishness. Americans are
lonelier than ever. We had the Surgeon general under a
Democratic administration, take to the pages of the New York
Times to proclaim that there's a loneliness epidemic. Now, unfortunately,
he did not note that the driving force there, more
(16:14):
than anything else, perhaps even more than the internet and
how that's isolated us, is that family has broken down.
But Americans are less likely to be in relationships. Even
with all the cohabitation that's going on. More Americans are
living alone than ever before. And that means, ironically enough,
for a movement that promised sexual pleasure and release and fulfillment.
(16:38):
Americans are statistically having less sex than ever before. They're
reporting being less satisfied with their sex lives than ever before.
And ironically, again, for those looking at this from a
worldly perspective, it is churchgoing Christians who actually report more
sex in married life and that they're happier with it.
(16:58):
And the reason for that is because when you are
following a committed life plan with another person, you have
a partner. And so, ironically, the sexual revolution can't even
deliver on its main promise.
S1 (17:11):
Yeah. Exactly right. The book is called victims of the
Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All, not just the
people who made bad choices, by the way. But really,
there is a cultural impact on all of us when
something like this happens. Doctor Nathaniel Blake is the author.
There's so much in the book we're going to continue
when we come back. By the way, if you're interested
in getting your copy, just hop on over to the
(17:32):
information page on our website at In the Market with
Janet Parshall, and there is a link to the book,
and also to learn more about the Ethics and Public
Policy Center. Have a link there as well. Back after this.
(17:53):
Doctor Nathaniel Blake is with us. He's written a very
important and timely new book called victims of the Revolution
How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Nathaniel is a fellow
in the Life and Family Initiative at the Ethics and
Public Policy Center, and his research interests include American political thought,
Christian political theory, rather Christian political thought, and the intersection
(18:14):
of natural law and philosophical hermeneutics. He's one bright man,
in case you haven't already figured that out. So let's
move to the subject of abortion, Nathaniel. We touched on
that a bit more, but you have a very compelling chapter, uh, talking.
In fact, it's entitled Abortion Hardens the heart. It doesn't
stop it. And this is part of the total cultural impact,
(18:34):
not just on the individual woman who's making the decision,
but there is a hardness that's created culturally. Flesh that
out for our friends.
S5 (18:42):
Well it's simple. Abortion is the violence inherent in the
sexual revolution. It is required to sustain a culture of hookups,
of cohabitation, of sex without commitment, that seeks to have
sex without consequence. But it thereby furthers the very things
that it professes to be a solution to. So lack
(19:06):
of male commitment leaves women feeling insecure, unsure if they
can keep the baby. Well, a culture of abortion makes
that worse. Um, and again, we worry about solidarity with
the poor and the vulnerable. Abortion is the ultimate act
of violence against those who are most vulnerable. We worry
(19:27):
about the status of women in our culture. Well, abortion
proclaims that women's fertility is their own worst enemy, that
they have to violently suppress it. We worry about men
and women failing to view each other as companions, as complementary,
but instead as rivals. We worry about incels and the
(19:49):
manosphere or, you know, feminists or whatever. Well, abortion makes
all that worse because it tells men and women that
instead of the fundamental solidarity between mother and father and
child that God created for us, we have this violent
clash of competing interests.
S1 (20:08):
So it's this is where this gets so complex, because
I think this is also reflective of your observation, correct observation.
I believe that this is the impact on the culture
at large. If we foster the idea that if a
woman has a child that she believes that she can
dispose of at her convenience for whatever reason, that what
(20:30):
we've done is not only have we harmed obviously the baby,
we've fostered a lie in the life of the woman.
She isn't even anticipatory of the kinds of impacts it's
going to have emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually on her life.
But do we not basically send a message across the
bow to the entire culture that says we're not made
in the image of God? Because who would throw away God?
So if you can dispose of a child, we're at
(20:52):
its core, whether we declare it or whether we're just
doing it subliminally, what we're basically saying is there is
no image of God in that child, and that going
back to the garden and rebellion, that the idea of, quote,
it's my body, my choice supersedes the idea that you're
carrying something, some one inside of you, that reflects the
very image of our creator that has an impact far
(21:13):
beyond just the mother, the father and the child. It
seems to me.
S5 (21:17):
Yes, it proclaims to the entire culture that some people
are disposable. And furthermore, the arguments used to promote abortion
to defend it, Emphasize this. It is the very vulnerability
of the embryo or the fetus that is used against it,
as an argument for why we can get rid of it,
instead of caring for those in need. We instead treat
(21:40):
them as expendable and elevate an ideal of human autonomy.
Now we know as Christians, for those who are Christians
that we are not autonomous. We are held together by
God's will, by his sustaining power throughout the universe. But
we nonetheless want that independence. This idea of I'm autonomous,
I can do what I want, I don't need anyone else.
(22:02):
But of course, the baby, whether in the womb or
out of the womb, needs somebody else. And in fact,
pregnancy makes women more vulnerable and dependent. But if we
have the normative ideal of the independent, autonomous person that
actually says that pregnancy makes women less human, doesn't it? If. Right.
(22:24):
If you have to be maximally independent to be fully human.
Then your need becomes an admission that you're not fully human.
S1 (22:35):
You know, I've had to learn in this particular arena
to redefine the word victory. And I don't know that
we'll ever get total legislative victory. I mean, we all
cheered up and down when Roe was dismantled and Dobbs
was put in its place, and then it was the
harsh wake up call the morning after the decision that,
uh oh, now we have 50 iterations of what we
had as one national standard. And then, as we touched
(22:56):
on earlier, this entire argument has been reformulated because of
the advent of the abortion pill, where you don't even
have to see a doctor, you can put it in
an envelope, mail it across state lines, and mama's own
bathroom can turn into its own abortion. Which is, I
can't think of a more gruesome anti-woman act in the
world than that, but I digress. So the point is,
if we're in a fallen state and we are, and
(23:19):
this rebellion, this idea that it's my body, my choice
is really the whisperings of the prince of this world.
My redefinition for victory can't be necessarily in a national movement,
although I'm thankful for that. Not even in legislative victories.
Grateful for those, well, those as well. But for me,
as a follower of Christ, I've had to redefine victory
(23:40):
as one heart at a time. How do you persevere?
S5 (23:45):
Well, I think that is a good way of looking
at it. And we have. Dobbs was a victory, and
we should be also grateful because there are toddlers alive today. Yes,
because Roe versus Wade was overturned. And there are states
that have sustained restrictions on abortion that have saved lives.
But we do need to persevere. And I think that
what we have to remember is that this is connected
(24:08):
to marriage. Marriage protects children because abortion is about overwhelming,
about a lack of committed relationships. That's what leads to abortion.
S1 (24:17):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. And your point is so well taken
with Dobbs. Now, at least we've got some states that
have said not in my state. And that's a blessing.
So we keep pressing on. We run with perseverance, as
it says in the book of Hebrews, this race that's
been set before us. Doctor Nathaniel Blake is with us.
His book is called victims of the Revolution How Sexual
Liberation Hurts Us All. Brilliant, insightful conversation dealing with really
(24:40):
the outcomes of bad choices. More with Nathaniel right after this.
The Bible says the Word of God illuminates our walk
(25:01):
through life. It's a lamp to our feet and a
light to our path. Without it, we stumble and fall
in the market with Janet Parshall is designed to help
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(25:22):
the market with Janet Parshall. If you are just joining us,
we're having a wonderful conversation with Doctor Nathaniel Blake. He
is a fellow in the Life and Family Initiative at
the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Again, his research interests
include American political theory, Christian political thought, and the intersection
of natural law and philosophical hermeneutics. He's written a brilliant
(25:44):
book called victims of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts
Us All, and it really is a challenge. First lesson
always for Christians to uphold a standard of a Christian
ethic when it comes to sexuality, and to do so unashamedly,
by the way, and to do so consistently. We all
know that we have all sinned and fallen short of
the glory of God. But as Nathaniel hinted at earlier
(26:05):
in our conversation, we uphold that standard even if we
fail to meet it each and every time. It is
nonetheless the standard for all of us. And when you
think about it, that standard was given to us by
a God who loves us. He's not a cosmic killjoy.
He didn't give us parameters because he was trying to
take away joy. In fact, this is the one who
told us he gave us an abundant life through Christ Jesus,
and He himself defined marriage. And oh yes, your Honor,
(26:26):
let the record reflect sex was designed and instituted by
God himself, not MTV or the Atlantic magazine. Let the
record reflect. And so it's imperative that you and I,
as followers of Christ, lead the conversation and lead by
example in this. And so I'm so thankful for the
book because it's so timely. So, Nathaniel, let me ask you.
And it's sort of a it's almost a rhetorical question
(26:47):
given where we're at. But if you go to the
sexual revolution and you see where it was leading and
all of the emptiness, the loneliness, the hard heartedness that
it was leaving behind, the ultimate form of rebellion is
really to raise our fist to God symbolically, if not
figuratively in some cases, and to basically say, not only
do I rebel against you in terms of my sexual mores,
(27:07):
but you made a mistake. I was put in the
wrong body. And so it seems to me that the
ideology and that's what it is not a diagnosis of
transgenderism is an absolute anticipated outcome in what started as
rebellion through a sexual revolution. You write about this in
the book. Tell me more.
S5 (27:23):
Well, if we reject the idea that our bodies have
a normative meaning for us in terms of they indicate
what our sexuality should be, so man, woman and so on,
that can then lead us to the idea that our
bodies have no meaning except whatever subjective desires we have
for them. And so if somebody wants to, for whatever reason,
(27:45):
try to change sex, they should be allowed to. Now
it's impossible, but it nonetheless comes from this idea that
we are self-creating, we're autonomous, we define ourselves. We are
whoever we want to be. As far too many children's
shows proclaim you can be whatever you want to be. Well,
no you can't. You are a creator. You are not
the creator. You are a creature. And if you rebel
(28:07):
against that, you will hurt yourself. You'll hurt those around you,
and you won't ever actually succeed because you're still not
God despite your best efforts. and this whole idea that
you can change sex or that you can somehow become
the opposite sex, it's impossible, but it does appeal to
people who are hurt, who want to reinvent themselves. And
(28:32):
what we should tell them is, no, you need to
be who you were made to be in God's image
as a whole person, rather than injuring yourself in an
impossible quest to recreate yourself according to your own desires.
S1 (28:47):
I'm so glad you go into depth with Chloe Cole's story.
I mean, she is such an example, and you rightfully
refer to her and other detransitioners as the other victims.
I mean, they're they're shouted down, if you will. They're
not allowed to tell their story. There's pushback. Um, it's
to me, it's like the ex-gay movement, people who once
(29:08):
had same sex attraction and now don't anymore. And so
those are the most nefarious stories that the activists and
the homosexual community can hear, because it goes to what
Paul said in Corinthians, that such were some of you.
So we don't want anybody to know that they can
change that when they listen to the siren songs of
the culture, that doesn't necessarily mean their ship has to
crash on the rocks. They can, in fact, pull up
anchor and find a safe harbor. And that's one of
(29:30):
the challenges you write about in the book, too, that
we have to remember these other victims. What about those
who become. And I'm going to turn the liberals on
their head on this. They become the handmaidens, if you will,
in this. They're the ones who are fostering this ideology
here in Washington, D.C.. Nathaniel, I know a lot of
groups and a lot of parades and a lot of
lobby organizations. I just can't quite figure out who are
(29:51):
the beneficiaries of the wind in the sails of this movement.
Why does the teachers union feel that they have to
stand between the parent and the child? Um, why is
it necessary to bring drag queens into a library? All
of these are tied back to the issues of human sexuality.
So why is there money to be made? I know
that getting the full, top and bottom surgery can bring
(30:12):
a doctor close to $200,000. So obviously it's affluent if
you just take that up as your practice. But where
where is the energy coming for this juggernaut?
S5 (30:22):
Well, I think there were a few factors. One, there
is money to be made. If you tell somebody that
they're transgender and they believe you and go through these
medical procedures, they are patient for life. They're going to
take cross-sex hormones for life, for instance. So there's there
is money to be made. But it's not just about
the money. It may not even be primarily about the money.
(30:43):
Rather it is one that this was sold as the
next thing. And a lot of people were very eager
to just keep going. Sure, nobody wanted to be the
person to say, actually, I think we've gone too far.
And it took a lot of effort to actually start
to push back. And we are seeing success against gender
(31:05):
ideology at this point. But a great many people who
knew better did not want to be the ones to
first say this is wrong, and then secondly, if we
start to say, well, this is too far, this is false,
this is harmful. It raises very uncomfortable questions about, well,
what do we believe about the human body and human
(31:26):
sexuality and human beings? Because a whole lot of people
who might kind of like the idea of just rolling
back to August 2015 or something just after same sex marriage,
but before the transgender movement really got going. They don't
have any basis for that other than their own preference.
They were comfortable there. They're uncomfortable now, but they don't
(31:48):
have a normative anthropology or a theological anthropology, which is
just a way of saying understanding who humans are by
understanding who God is and how he made us.
S1 (31:57):
Exactly. So it raises an and obviously not from a
theological vantage point. But I want to underscore your optimism
in that there are changes and I'm thrilled about that.
So you look at the Cass review coming out of
the UK, for example, longitudinal study, peer reviewed. Um, I
think it's one of the most seminal reports out there
in this particular topic. What we're seeing in Sweden and
(32:17):
France and the U.K. now, we've got a glimmer of
hope in the United States, where we've now got HHS
making declarations that you're born a man or a woman,
but then you've got the other side of that coin,
which is if Planned Parenthood can't get abortions in the door.
And thanks be to God, we're seeing so many of
those centers closed down. Now. What they're doing is they're
becoming the places where they can dispense these sex hormones.
(32:39):
So if you can't take a baby in the womb,
let's radically redefine a person by giving them hormones. So
obviously clearly giving indication they have branch offices in hell
because they're interested in making money. As long as they
continue to destroy the image of God, it would be
very easy to be discouraged. But you're not. You wouldn't
be working at ethics and public policy if you were discouraged. Um,
(33:00):
but when you think it can't get any crazier, I
keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. Or the pendulum,
if I can put it this way from an optimistic
perspective to rectify and start swinging the other way. Do
you sense it's starting to come back a little bit?
S5 (33:15):
I think so I think we're seeing that on gender
ideology and transgenderism, both with the change in administration. But
even before then, I think I don't want to get
too political. But Republicans have realized this is a winning issue,
and Democrats have realized it's a losing issue. And that
is going to help if we can sustain that. But
(33:36):
I also think that as dark as things have gotten
that actually allows Christians and those who still understand the
truth about human beings, about men and women, about marriage,
an opportunity to come in and say, well, here is
something better, here is a better way to live. Here's
a better way to understand what it is to be human.
Because when you have people who are encouraging children to have,
(34:01):
you know, young girls have their breasts amputated, young boys
to go on estrogen and ultimately be chemically sterilized and
so on. All these horrible things, it really does reveal
evil for what it is, and it can then reveal
good for what it is, and the wisdom of God's
creation order that we were meant to live in.
S1 (34:22):
What an excellent observation. I particularly love what you offered
as a challenge to believers as well to be able
to say, look again, God has a better plan for
your life. There's a better way for what you're doing.
So that's our hope. And I think one of the
things that you're stated impliedly over and over again, Nathaniel,
is the idea that again, don't look to Washington. Your
redemption does not come by way of Washington. I'm thankful
(34:44):
for what we've got in terms of movement in the
right direction, declarations through governmental guidance in the agencies here
in DC saying, hey, sex is defined as your biological
sex at birth period, end of statement. Those are bright
little spots as we move forward on this. But the
bigger question is really, are we going to maintain practice,
(35:04):
implement support and believe in a transcendent Christian sexual ethic.
These kinds of questions challenge us to do just that,
don't they? But when we retreat, when we say, I
don't want to offend anybody, I don't want to use, um,
you know, to be accused of using a dead name
or the wrong pronouns. Well, is there a way to
speak truth and love through a grace narrative? Because in
(35:24):
so doing, we uphold that standard of a Christian sexual ethic,
do we not?
S5 (35:29):
Yes. And I think it's important to remember that we
can fail to love our neighbor by not speaking the truth. Yes.
Speaking too harshly or cruelly, even if true, can be unloving.
But not speaking the truth is also unloving. And additionally,
we definitely have something better because Christianity. Yes, it directs
(35:50):
us towards our ultimate good in knowing God and enjoying
him forever. But it also has a lot of insight
about what it means to live in this life, how
to live in this life. And that's where Christians speaking
to a culture wounded by the sexual revolution can shine.
I quote Andrew Walker, the Baptist theologian, saying one coming
(36:13):
in the coming days, one of the best witnesses to
Christian faith is going to be Christian living.
S1 (36:18):
Amen to that. Someone once said, and I can put
it far more simply, your life might be the only
Bible some people will ever read, but in a more
transcendent way. Remember, you are an ambassador for Christ. So
it isn't just our words, it's the way in which
we live out our lives as well. Doctor Nathaniel Blake
is with us. His brand new book is called victims
of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurt Us All in
(36:40):
the market, with Janet Parshall. Go to the red box
right under the summation of today's broadcast. It'll say program
details and audio. Clicking on takes you to the information page.
You've got a link to the Ethics and Public Policy Center,
as well as a link to Doctor Nathaniel Blake's brand
new book, Back After This. Victims of the Revolution how
(37:09):
sexual liberation hurts us all. Brand new book by Doctor
Nathaniel Blake who is at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Nathaniel,
in the book you ask a question, and I think
it's very germane when you talk about sexual choices, sexual
activity and sexual ethic. And the question was this does
desire define define us? Does it?
S5 (37:29):
Well, I don't think so. But our culture says so.
It says that you are what you desire and that
the key to authentic human living, to authentic, flourishing and
well-being is to indulge your desires, especially your sexual desires,
because those seem so powerful, so central to who we are.
(37:49):
In contrast, ancient pagan philosophers would have said no, you
instead should be defined. Sexual liberation means containing your desires,
controlling them through the use of reason. Christianity goes a
step further. It says, no, you are not defined by
your desires. You are defined by Christ, and you are
defined by your sanctification. You are defined by becoming more
(38:13):
Christ like. And therefore, instead of being defined by your desires,
often sinful, you are defined by the righteousness that is
imputed to us first as believers, and then that we
also gain through the process of sanctification. So instead of
saying be defined by desire. No, that's sinful in many cases.
(38:37):
Instead be defined by being Christ like. That is what
it means. That is who you should be. And that
will then direct which desires you should have, which you
should encourage, which you should repress. And ultimately that is
about love. Love for God and a genuine love for
other people that seeks they are good rather than merely
(38:57):
our own selfish indulgence or pleasure.
S1 (39:01):
You took me exactly where I wanted to go. And
that is. Let's linger here for a few minutes and
talk about the distinction between sex and love. You know,
when all else fails, go back and read the instructions again.
In a postmodern culture where we find ourselves today, it
seems to me we have this sloppy definition of what
love is. And sometimes we think it means the same
as sex. Break that down for me. Walk us through this.
S5 (39:23):
Okay, so our culture says sex can mean love if
you want it to. And frequently what that actually means
is sex is love. If you want to have sex
and you're trying to convince yourself or somebody else that
that is what is good. But love is about the
good of the other person. It's about wanting what is
(39:43):
best for them. And consequently that means, in many cases,
restraining oneself. If we want as a society social justice,
that means we have to pursue sexual righteousness. Because look
at how many things are hurt, damaged by bisexual selfishness.
If we want to pursue strong marriages, we need to
(40:05):
restrain ourselves at times to be unselfish, be loving. And
that's not at all the same thing as simply pursuing
maximal sexual pleasure. And as we touched on earlier, the
pursuit of sexual pleasure tends to be self-defeating anyway, because
by cutting itself off from genuine love, it also tends
(40:25):
to break down the relationships in which people are committed
to each other and therefore free in that Christian marriage
to love each other sexually. And instead, people find themselves
alone and pursuing hookups and pursuing short term relationships.
S1 (40:45):
Yeah, you touch on this in the book, too. And
it's interesting because I recently did a critique on a
book entitled Queer and Christian, and it's this torturous effort
to try to say that somehow what the Bible said
has no relevance for today, or we misunderstood its application
in the times, or we were talking about licentiousness. We're
not talking about a monogamous relationship. If it's, you know,
(41:08):
polyamory or if it's same sex, as long as it's monogamous,
that's the transcendent. And that's really what the Bible was
talking about. In fact, you write an alternative claim meant
to reconcile Christianity in the sexual revolution is that the
church has misunderstood Jesus and the apostles and their condemnations
of sexual immorality, and that did not mean what the
church has taken them to mean. In particular, this argument
has been deployed to claim that when the apostles condemned homosexuality,
(41:30):
they didn't mean homosexuality as such, but just exploitive homosexual relationships.
Just exactly what I was just saying. So, um, I
guess it's a quintessential posturing, is it not that situational
ethics any means whatsoever is justifiable as long as you
get to your desired end, as opposed to grasping hold
of the transcendent, immutable truth that applies to all people
(41:50):
in all times and all places. And that's the marvelous thing,
it seems to me, about the Christian sexual ethic. It
is all people that fall under the protection of God's
love on this. Talk to me more about that.
S5 (42:03):
Well, I think that you bring up a great point,
which is that the Christian sexual ethic, it has been
dismissed as scolding a killjoy. More recently, it's been denounced
as bigotry. But in fact, it is protective. It is nurturing.
It is preserving because it is designed to direct the
unruly sexual desires that humans have towards that which is
(42:28):
conducive to loving relationships, committed relationships, the good of children,
the good of culture, the good of society. So instead
of the anarchic passions that our culture tells us to
just run, run wild with deleterious effects despite our massive
technological prowess and wealth. Christianity says no. We are preserving something.
(42:50):
We're protecting something and it is good. And if we
look at that, it is good. It is the union
of a man and a woman coming together, vowing to
love each other for richer, for poorer, for in sickness
and in health, till death do us part. That is
an incredible, profound promise to make. That is a sort
(43:11):
of promise that you can build a life around, that
you can build the culture around that you can rely
on to build a family with.
S3 (43:21):
Oh.
S1 (43:22):
I love the way you end the book because you
really do challenge us. You point out some of the
things in Scripture that underscore how important this ethic is.
You know, when you drop it the way you did
about John's martyrdom, he points out the fact, right, that
the the Jewish leader is having a nefarious affair. And
so his protection of the Christian ethic of marriage and
sexuality ends up having John lose his head from his shoulders.
(43:44):
So some of these things are worth fighting for. But
as you pointed out earlier, and I love this, Nathaniel,
we can fight best by being exemplary in our own
marriages and in our own lives, make our marriages built
on a solid Christian ethic attractive to the rest of
the world. And then, without even the use of words,
it'll be a wonderful way to start healing up the brokenhearted.
(44:04):
Because the truth of the matter is, their revolution left
heartache in its wake and emptiness was its outcome. That's
why your book, Nathaniel, is so very important. Thank you
for the research you did on it. Thank you for
the deep theological insights that you offered into the book
as well. It's called victims of the Revolution How Sexual
Liberation Hurts Us All. Again, let me point out that
you can listen to this podcast, share it with a friend.
(44:26):
Just go to wherever you find your favorite podcast in
the market with Janet Parshall, or you can go to
the information page at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Nathaniel,
from the bottom of my heart, thank you for a
great and memorable hour. And friends, let me encourage you
to understand. When God says it, he says it because
he loves us and he means that. And we have
an opportunity to be his ambassadors in a hurting world.
And there's a lot of hurt around us. Thanks, friends.
(44:48):
We'll see you next time.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
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(01:24):
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(01:46):
becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool.
Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a of the.
S4 (01:58):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (02:03):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S3 (02:21):
Hi friends.
S1 (02:21):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you
so much for choosing to spend the hour with me.
We're going to talk about sex. Okay. You can pick
yourself up off the floor, because that cacophony you just
heard that represents the marketplace of ideas. Oh, trust me,
one of the busiest booths out there in that marketplace
is the one that's selling sex. Yeah, to the lowest bidder, unfortunately.
(02:42):
And by the way, if you hang around long enough,
you're going to hear things like, if it feels good,
do it, let it all hang out. Choice, but no consequences.
And if you get pregnant a take this little pill,
it'll make all your problems go away. Which raises an interesting,
transcendent question, particularly for those of us who are followers
of Christ. Do you think that those kinds of choices
and those kinds of outcomes leave the person more satisfied,
(03:05):
more full of life, the abundant life that Christ has
promised us, more understanding who they are being made in
the image of God. Imago dei. Or did it leave
people brokenhearted and wanting more? And is there a Christian
ethic when it comes to sexual mores? And if there is,
what do we do to protect it, advance it? And
(03:25):
most importantly of all, apply it to ourselves? That's what
we're going to talk about this hour. And Doctor Nathaniel
Blake is going to be our teacher. He is a
fellow in the Life and Family Initiative at the Ethics
and Public Policy Center. Wonderful group, by the way. His
research interests include American political theory, Christian political thought, and
the intersection of natural law and philosophical hermeneutics. His published
(03:47):
scholarship has included works on Alasdair MacIntyre, Russell Kirk, and J.R.R. Tolkien.
But he joins us today with a brand new book
with a most intriguing and accurate title, sadly called victims
of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Nathaniel,
the Warmest of Welcomes. Thank you so much for being
with us. Thank you even more for a very timely
(04:07):
and important book. And it really kind of begs a
starting question, which at some level seems sort of pedantic
and almost sophomoric, but I think it's important. Out of
all the things that you could be writing about, why
would you go back and review the sexual revolution, particularly
at this point in the culture's history?
S5 (04:23):
Well, thank you very much for having me on. And
I think the reason to review it is because we're
at a bit of a cultural inflection point where we're
seeing people, even in the bastions of cultural liberalism. The
New York Times, The Atlantic, admit that something isn't right,
that there is a problem with our culture, with our
(04:44):
sexual culture. Now, they don't have a lot of answers.
They're kind of afraid of the answers. But I think
this gives Christians an opportunity to reach out to a
culture that is lonely, that is hurting, and where people
are in need of recognizing the truth about how men
and women are supposed to live in accordance with God's design,
in a union that both unites the two halves of
(05:09):
the human race and provides for the future of the
human race.
S1 (05:13):
Amen. Early on in the book, you say this is
a Christian book written to Christians first, but it's not
a work of theology, nor is it a Bible study.
It is certainly not a personal testimony. This book is
a social critique grounded in the Christian natural law tradition.
The argument, in its simplest form, is that Christian sexual
morality is not arbitrary, but directs us toward our good
(05:34):
and that of others departing from it harm self and society.
Christian sexual mores have always been imperfectly observed, but they
are now scorned and derided. The sexual revolution has won,
but its promises were empty. That's so insightful on your part, Nathaniel.
I thank you for that. So when you talk about
it being for those who don't know, and you're talking
to a national audience that goes from Guam to the
(05:55):
Cayman Islands and a bunch of spots in between. So
you say that this is a social critique that's grounded
in Christian natural law. So for people who don't understand that,
break that down. What do you mean when you say
Christian natural law?
S5 (06:08):
Well, we see it explained by Paul in the book
of Romans, but simply put, is that God has created
a moral order, and despite our sinfulness, we still see
pieces of that moral order. It's not completely effaced. This
is something that's affirmed by Catholics, by reformed theologians such
as Calvin and Luther. And it, simply put, is that, yes,
(06:31):
there is a moral truth, and we can know a
bit of it. Now we fall short of it even
on our best days. And we don't fully understand it necessarily,
because our reason is also imperfect and limited. But therefore
we can still look and say, yeah, there's a right
and wrong. There is genuine human flourishing and genuine human harms,
(06:52):
genuine human degradation. And we can to some extent see
how these this natural order God created comes to fruition,
either for good or ill in the world and in
our lives.
S1 (07:04):
Yeah, absolutely. Let me help our listeners gain your sense
of a timeline when you talk about the sexual revolution.
In truth, if you wanted to be accurate, you could
say it started when we walked out of the garden
and we've been rebelling and choosing our own way. There's
a way that seemeth right on demand, the Bible says,
but the end thereof is death. And so you could
say that there's been a kind of sexual revolt against
(07:26):
God since sin came into the world. But if you're
going to drop it into a cultural context from the
way in which you write, when you talk about the
sexual revolution, give me the timeline where you see that starting.
S5 (07:37):
I would say that, well, yeah, you point out it
goes back to human sinfulness. We've always wanted to indulge
ourselves and get away with it. But I think there
was a point where we thought we could, as a culture,
get away with it. We had more wealth. We had
the pill. So it seemed like pregnancy wasn't as much
of a concern. We had penicillin. STDs were no longer
(07:58):
as scary. So really, that period of time in the
mid 20th century, suddenly it seemed plausible that we didn't
need the old rules. We could get away with it.
We were rich enough, we were technologically advanced enough, and
if it felt good, maybe we should do it.
S1 (08:14):
Yeah, yeah. And you know, when you take that ideas,
those couple of points that you so perfectly pointed out about,
there was choice. But we could eradicate the consequences. We're
seeing it in its most nefarious form with the abortion
pill today, are we not?
S5 (08:27):
We are we? Despite the great victory in the Dobbs
decision overturning Roe versus Wade, we still have a problem.
Not only is abortion legal in many states, but the
Biden administration, before Biden left office, put in place policies
that effectively allow for the mail ordering of abortion pills
(08:49):
across state lines, and the FDA has not yet. They're
going to review questions on this, they've said, but they
have not yet rescinded that Biden policy. And so we
see the attack on human life, not simply in the
abortion clinic, but something that's being spread through the mail,
through the Federal Post Office.
S1 (09:09):
Exactly. Which, by the way, Nathaniel, makes your book all
the more prescient and timely. The book is called victims
of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Doctor
Nathaniel Blake is a fellow in the Life and Family
Initiative at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. We're just
getting started on what I think is one of the
most thought provoking books on Christian sexual mores I've read
(09:29):
in a long time. Stick around so much more coming
your way right after this. God uses so much in
the world around us to point to him. Our sense
of wonder is really about knowing him. That's why I've chosen.
(09:51):
Have you ever wondered, as this month's Truth tool? This
book is for all who have looked up at a
million stars in the night sky and just wondered, ask
for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you
give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go
to in the market with Janet Parshall. Jackson Nathaniel Blake
(10:14):
is with us. He is a fellow in the Life
and Family Initiative at the Ethics and Public Policy Center.
A brilliant group of people work there. By the way,
he's the author of the brand new book victims of
the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Let me
go to something else you say in the introduction. And
there's so much in the book, but there's also a
rich part to the introduction as well. You point out
what the Apostle Paul notes, and you harken to Kyle
(10:37):
Harper in First Things, where he notes that for the
Apostle Paul, sexual morality was part of the proclamation of
a half hidden story of God's restoration of the created cosmos. Indeed,
for the early Christians, sexual morality was woven inseparably into
their whole effort to live rightly in the world. Sex,
by its essence, is entangled in the most fundamental questions
(10:58):
about the nature of the self and its relation to God.
I thought that was just brilliant. Can you break that
down for our listeners? What is Harper saying here?
S5 (11:06):
Well, so there's a few things, but we could begin
with the fact that in the curse we see the
division of the unity of male and female, instead of
solidarity between husband and wife. There's enmity, there's dependence, there's
resentment of that dependence. There's pain, there's suffering and labor.
So the sexual relation that was meant to be in
(11:29):
a union in marriage is broken apart. And what Christianity
proclaims is that we are to start to see the
restoration of that in this life through the sanctification of
the believer, but it also points us to something even greater,
something where we see sex and marriage represented as the
(11:52):
eschatological fulfillment. The church is the bride of Christ, so
marriage is both foundational for civilization. It's a very building block,
but it also directs us towards our very highest good
in the world that is to come, which is our
union with Christ. And this is profound imagery, but it
does get at something which is that we are meant
(12:14):
for love, for a fruitful love. Most of us are
called to those vocations of marriage and family. And when
we neglect that self-giving instead to pursue our own selfish interests,
we cut ourselves off from what we were meant for.
And we also rebel against the natural order that God
designed for us and for our own good.
S1 (12:38):
You know, let me linger here because I think this
is such a significant theological point, which is when you
think of the three institutions that God creates family, government,
the church in that order. The only one of the
three that's made in a place of perfection is the garden.
So it gives us a hint at how dear this
is to the heart of God. Second of all, and
you touched on this, Nathaniel, which is it really is
(12:58):
so many things. It isn't just companionship and procreation. It
is reflective of the profundity of Christ's love for us.
He's the bridegroom. The church is the bride. So this
has such significant and transcendent meaning other than just what we,
when we look at it here, say yes to the
dress or marry at first sight. Those are all trivializing
(13:19):
the profundity of what God created. I say that because
I often say to my friends, when we discuss so
many of these issues that really are heartbreaking at its
core is that in some respects, this is a kind
of spiritual warfare. It seems to me that Satan just
abhors the idea of a strong marriage between one man
and one woman, not only because of the stability it
offers the culture, but because it's so reflective of the
(13:40):
relationship that Christ has for us. Do you agree?
S5 (13:43):
I think so. I think that when we see the
attack on marriage and family, we see the disruption of
what was meant to be the most fundamental, the most
in many ways the most fulfilling in this life, human
institution and relationship. As you point out, marriage was created
before the fall. It was meant for us in this life,
(14:06):
in this world, for our fulfillment. And that is because
we are made for love. We are made for other
people and God, of course, ultimately in communion with him
to know and enjoy him forever. But not just in
this life, but in the world that is to come.
We are made for other people and in this life
marriage is an enormous part of that. For many of
(14:27):
us who are again, most Christians are called to the
vocation of marriage and to neglect, that is, to ignore
what is meant to be the most intimate That relationships
that humans can have in this life with each other.
S1 (14:41):
Mhm. Mhm. So insightful. Um, well if you're looking at
the statistics, if we just start looking at black ink
on white paper post-sexual revolution. Although I would argue that
we're not at the end by any stretch of the imagination.
We just have different iterations. But it's still continuing. As
you note in the introduction, the sexual revolution has won.
And we're seeing all kinds of anomalies that represent the
(15:03):
truth of that. But let me go back a little bit.
And that is if this revolution was good, any revolution
for that matter, it seems to me you'd be able
to have an objective metric to say the outcomes were
so beneficial to culture writ large. What do we know
about the sexual revolution? I do know from where I
sit that the uptick in people who are cohabitating is
through the roof, bigger than it was in the 60s.
(15:23):
Now people are talking about starter marriages where they'll try
it out for a while, dump that spouse, then move
to the one they really wanted to do, or the
idea of just saying, I'm not interested in marriage of
all because I'm self-actualizing. And so I'll just have a
string of relationships as long as I'm serially monogamous in
my my lack of being monogamous in a, in a
(15:46):
marriage between a man and a woman. So in other words,
I'm not seeing the fruit of their labor. Am I
missing something here?
S5 (15:53):
No. Well, I think it is. What we're seeing is
the self destructive nature of sin and selfishness. Americans are
lonelier than ever. We had the Surgeon general under a
Democratic administration, take to the pages of the New York
Times to proclaim that there's a loneliness epidemic. Now, unfortunately,
he did not note that the driving force there, more
(16:14):
than anything else, perhaps even more than the internet and
how that's isolated us, is that family has broken down.
But Americans are less likely to be in relationships. Even
with all the cohabitation that's going on. More Americans are
living alone than ever before. And that means, ironically enough,
for a movement that promised sexual pleasure and release and fulfillment.
(16:38):
Americans are statistically having less sex than ever before. They're
reporting being less satisfied with their sex lives than ever before.
And ironically, again, for those looking at this from a
worldly perspective, it is churchgoing Christians who actually report more
sex in married life and that they're happier with it.
(16:58):
And the reason for that is because when you are
following a committed life plan with another person, you have
a partner. And so, ironically, the sexual revolution can't even
deliver on its main promise.
S1 (17:11):
Yeah. Exactly right. The book is called victims of the
Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All, not just the
people who made bad choices, by the way. But really,
there is a cultural impact on all of us when
something like this happens. Doctor Nathaniel Blake is the author.
There's so much in the book we're going to continue
when we come back. By the way, if you're interested
in getting your copy, just hop on over to the
(17:32):
information page on our website at In the Market with
Janet Parshall, and there is a link to the book,
and also to learn more about the Ethics and Public
Policy Center. Have a link there as well. Back after this.
(17:53):
Doctor Nathaniel Blake is with us. He's written a very
important and timely new book called victims of the Revolution
How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Nathaniel is a fellow
in the Life and Family Initiative at the Ethics and
Public Policy Center, and his research interests include American political thought,
Christian political theory, rather Christian political thought, and the intersection
(18:14):
of natural law and philosophical hermeneutics. He's one bright man,
in case you haven't already figured that out. So let's
move to the subject of abortion, Nathaniel. We touched on
that a bit more, but you have a very compelling chapter, uh, talking.
In fact, it's entitled Abortion Hardens the heart. It doesn't
stop it. And this is part of the total cultural impact,
(18:34):
not just on the individual woman who's making the decision,
but there is a hardness that's created culturally. Flesh that
out for our friends.
S5 (18:42):
Well it's simple. Abortion is the violence inherent in the
sexual revolution. It is required to sustain a culture of hookups,
of cohabitation, of sex without commitment, that seeks to have
sex without consequence. But it thereby furthers the very things
that it professes to be a solution to. So lack
(19:06):
of male commitment leaves women feeling insecure, unsure if they
can keep the baby. Well, a culture of abortion makes
that worse. Um, and again, we worry about solidarity with
the poor and the vulnerable. Abortion is the ultimate act
of violence against those who are most vulnerable. We worry
(19:27):
about the status of women in our culture. Well, abortion
proclaims that women's fertility is their own worst enemy, that
they have to violently suppress it. We worry about men
and women failing to view each other as companions, as complementary,
but instead as rivals. We worry about incels and the
(19:49):
manosphere or, you know, feminists or whatever. Well, abortion makes
all that worse because it tells men and women that
instead of the fundamental solidarity between mother and father and
child that God created for us, we have this violent
clash of competing interests.
S1 (20:08):
So it's this is where this gets so complex, because
I think this is also reflective of your observation, correct observation.
I believe that this is the impact on the culture
at large. If we foster the idea that if a
woman has a child that she believes that she can
dispose of at her convenience for whatever reason, that what
(20:30):
we've done is not only have we harmed obviously the baby,
we've fostered a lie in the life of the woman.
She isn't even anticipatory of the kinds of impacts it's
going to have emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually on her life.
But do we not basically send a message across the
bow to the entire culture that says we're not made
in the image of God? Because who would throw away God?
So if you can dispose of a child, we're at
(20:52):
its core, whether we declare it or whether we're just
doing it subliminally, what we're basically saying is there is
no image of God in that child, and that going
back to the garden and rebellion, that the idea of, quote,
it's my body, my choice supersedes the idea that you're
carrying something, some one inside of you, that reflects the
very image of our creator that has an impact far
(21:13):
beyond just the mother, the father and the child. It
seems to me.
S5 (21:17):
Yes, it proclaims to the entire culture that some people
are disposable. And furthermore, the arguments used to promote abortion
to defend it, Emphasize this. It is the very vulnerability
of the embryo or the fetus that is used against it,
as an argument for why we can get rid of it,
instead of caring for those in need. We instead treat
(21:40):
them as expendable and elevate an ideal of human autonomy.
Now we know as Christians, for those who are Christians
that we are not autonomous. We are held together by
God's will, by his sustaining power throughout the universe. But
we nonetheless want that independence. This idea of I'm autonomous,
I can do what I want, I don't need anyone else.
(22:02):
But of course, the baby, whether in the womb or
out of the womb, needs somebody else. And in fact,
pregnancy makes women more vulnerable and dependent. But if we
have the normative ideal of the independent, autonomous person that
actually says that pregnancy makes women less human, doesn't it? If. Right.
(22:24):
If you have to be maximally independent to be fully human.
Then your need becomes an admission that you're not fully human.
S1 (22:35):
You know, I've had to learn in this particular arena
to redefine the word victory. And I don't know that
we'll ever get total legislative victory. I mean, we all
cheered up and down when Roe was dismantled and Dobbs
was put in its place, and then it was the
harsh wake up call the morning after the decision that,
uh oh, now we have 50 iterations of what we
had as one national standard. And then, as we touched
(22:56):
on earlier, this entire argument has been reformulated because of
the advent of the abortion pill, where you don't even
have to see a doctor, you can put it in
an envelope, mail it across state lines, and mama's own
bathroom can turn into its own abortion. Which is, I
can't think of a more gruesome anti-woman act in the
world than that, but I digress. So the point is,
if we're in a fallen state and we are, and
(23:19):
this rebellion, this idea that it's my body, my choice
is really the whisperings of the prince of this world.
My redefinition for victory can't be necessarily in a national movement,
although I'm thankful for that. Not even in legislative victories.
Grateful for those, well, those as well. But for me,
as a follower of Christ, I've had to redefine victory
(23:40):
as one heart at a time. How do you persevere?
S5 (23:45):
Well, I think that is a good way of looking
at it. And we have. Dobbs was a victory, and
we should be also grateful because there are toddlers alive today. Yes,
because Roe versus Wade was overturned. And there are states
that have sustained restrictions on abortion that have saved lives.
But we do need to persevere. And I think that
what we have to remember is that this is connected
(24:08):
to marriage. Marriage protects children because abortion is about overwhelming,
about a lack of committed relationships. That's what leads to abortion.
S1 (24:17):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. And your point is so well taken
with Dobbs. Now, at least we've got some states that
have said not in my state. And that's a blessing.
So we keep pressing on. We run with perseverance, as
it says in the book of Hebrews, this race that's
been set before us. Doctor Nathaniel Blake is with us.
His book is called victims of the Revolution How Sexual
Liberation Hurts Us All. Brilliant, insightful conversation dealing with really
(24:40):
the outcomes of bad choices. More with Nathaniel right after this.
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(25:01):
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the market with Janet Parshall. If you are just joining us,
we're having a wonderful conversation with Doctor Nathaniel Blake. He
is a fellow in the Life and Family Initiative at
the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Again, his research interests
include American political theory, Christian political thought, and the intersection
of natural law and philosophical hermeneutics. He's written a brilliant
(25:44):
book called victims of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurts
Us All, and it really is a challenge. First lesson
always for Christians to uphold a standard of a Christian
ethic when it comes to sexuality, and to do so unashamedly,
by the way, and to do so consistently. We all
know that we have all sinned and fallen short of
the glory of God. But as Nathaniel hinted at earlier
(26:05):
in our conversation, we uphold that standard even if we
fail to meet it each and every time. It is
nonetheless the standard for all of us. And when you
think about it, that standard was given to us by
a God who loves us. He's not a cosmic killjoy.
He didn't give us parameters because he was trying to
take away joy. In fact, this is the one who
told us he gave us an abundant life through Christ Jesus,
and He himself defined marriage. And oh yes, your Honor,
(26:26):
let the record reflect sex was designed and instituted by
God himself, not MTV or the Atlantic magazine. Let the
record reflect. And so it's imperative that you and I,
as followers of Christ, lead the conversation and lead by
example in this. And so I'm so thankful for the
book because it's so timely. So, Nathaniel, let me ask you.
And it's sort of a it's almost a rhetorical question
(26:47):
given where we're at. But if you go to the
sexual revolution and you see where it was leading and
all of the emptiness, the loneliness, the hard heartedness that
it was leaving behind, the ultimate form of rebellion is
really to raise our fist to God symbolically, if not
figuratively in some cases, and to basically say, not only
do I rebel against you in terms of my sexual mores,
(27:07):
but you made a mistake. I was put in the
wrong body. And so it seems to me that the
ideology and that's what it is not a diagnosis of
transgenderism is an absolute anticipated outcome in what started as
rebellion through a sexual revolution. You write about this in
the book. Tell me more.
S5 (27:23):
Well, if we reject the idea that our bodies have
a normative meaning for us in terms of they indicate
what our sexuality should be, so man, woman and so on,
that can then lead us to the idea that our
bodies have no meaning except whatever subjective desires we have
for them. And so if somebody wants to, for whatever reason,
(27:45):
try to change sex, they should be allowed to. Now
it's impossible, but it nonetheless comes from this idea that
we are self-creating, we're autonomous, we define ourselves. We are
whoever we want to be. As far too many children's
shows proclaim you can be whatever you want to be. Well,
no you can't. You are a creator. You are not
the creator. You are a creature. And if you rebel
(28:07):
against that, you will hurt yourself. You'll hurt those around you,
and you won't ever actually succeed because you're still not
God despite your best efforts. and this whole idea that
you can change sex or that you can somehow become
the opposite sex, it's impossible, but it does appeal to
people who are hurt, who want to reinvent themselves. And
(28:32):
what we should tell them is, no, you need to
be who you were made to be in God's image
as a whole person, rather than injuring yourself in an
impossible quest to recreate yourself according to your own desires.
S1 (28:47):
I'm so glad you go into depth with Chloe Cole's story.
I mean, she is such an example, and you rightfully
refer to her and other detransitioners as the other victims.
I mean, they're they're shouted down, if you will. They're
not allowed to tell their story. There's pushback. Um, it's
to me, it's like the ex-gay movement, people who once
(29:08):
had same sex attraction and now don't anymore. And so
those are the most nefarious stories that the activists and
the homosexual community can hear, because it goes to what
Paul said in Corinthians, that such were some of you.
So we don't want anybody to know that they can
change that when they listen to the siren songs of
the culture, that doesn't necessarily mean their ship has to
crash on the rocks. They can, in fact, pull up
anchor and find a safe harbor. And that's one of
(29:30):
the challenges you write about in the book, too, that
we have to remember these other victims. What about those
who become. And I'm going to turn the liberals on
their head on this. They become the handmaidens, if you will,
in this. They're the ones who are fostering this ideology
here in Washington, D.C.. Nathaniel, I know a lot of
groups and a lot of parades and a lot of
lobby organizations. I just can't quite figure out who are
(29:51):
the beneficiaries of the wind in the sails of this movement.
Why does the teachers union feel that they have to
stand between the parent and the child? Um, why is
it necessary to bring drag queens into a library? All
of these are tied back to the issues of human sexuality.
So why is there money to be made? I know
that getting the full, top and bottom surgery can bring
(30:12):
a doctor close to $200,000. So obviously it's affluent if
you just take that up as your practice. But where
where is the energy coming for this juggernaut?
S5 (30:22):
Well, I think there were a few factors. One, there
is money to be made. If you tell somebody that
they're transgender and they believe you and go through these
medical procedures, they are patient for life. They're going to
take cross-sex hormones for life, for instance. So there's there
is money to be made. But it's not just about
the money. It may not even be primarily about the money.
(30:43):
Rather it is one that this was sold as the
next thing. And a lot of people were very eager
to just keep going. Sure, nobody wanted to be the
person to say, actually, I think we've gone too far.
And it took a lot of effort to actually start
to push back. And we are seeing success against gender
(31:05):
ideology at this point. But a great many people who
knew better did not want to be the ones to
first say this is wrong, and then secondly, if we
start to say, well, this is too far, this is false,
this is harmful. It raises very uncomfortable questions about, well,
what do we believe about the human body and human
(31:26):
sexuality and human beings? Because a whole lot of people
who might kind of like the idea of just rolling
back to August 2015 or something just after same sex marriage,
but before the transgender movement really got going. They don't
have any basis for that other than their own preference.
They were comfortable there. They're uncomfortable now, but they don't
(31:48):
have a normative anthropology or a theological anthropology, which is
just a way of saying understanding who humans are by
understanding who God is and how he made us.
S1 (31:57):
Exactly. So it raises an and obviously not from a
theological vantage point. But I want to underscore your optimism
in that there are changes and I'm thrilled about that.
So you look at the Cass review coming out of
the UK, for example, longitudinal study, peer reviewed. Um, I
think it's one of the most seminal reports out there
in this particular topic. What we're seeing in Sweden and
(32:17):
France and the U.K. now, we've got a glimmer of
hope in the United States, where we've now got HHS
making declarations that you're born a man or a woman,
but then you've got the other side of that coin,
which is if Planned Parenthood can't get abortions in the door.
And thanks be to God, we're seeing so many of
those centers closed down. Now. What they're doing is they're
becoming the places where they can dispense these sex hormones.
(32:39):
So if you can't take a baby in the womb,
let's radically redefine a person by giving them hormones. So
obviously clearly giving indication they have branch offices in hell
because they're interested in making money. As long as they
continue to destroy the image of God, it would be
very easy to be discouraged. But you're not. You wouldn't
be working at ethics and public policy if you were discouraged. Um,
(33:00):
but when you think it can't get any crazier, I
keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. Or the pendulum,
if I can put it this way from an optimistic
perspective to rectify and start swinging the other way. Do
you sense it's starting to come back a little bit?
S5 (33:15):
I think so I think we're seeing that on gender
ideology and transgenderism, both with the change in administration. But
even before then, I think I don't want to get
too political. But Republicans have realized this is a winning issue,
and Democrats have realized it's a losing issue. And that
is going to help if we can sustain that. But
(33:36):
I also think that as dark as things have gotten
that actually allows Christians and those who still understand the
truth about human beings, about men and women, about marriage,
an opportunity to come in and say, well, here is
something better, here is a better way to live. Here's
a better way to understand what it is to be human.
Because when you have people who are encouraging children to have,
(34:01):
you know, young girls have their breasts amputated, young boys
to go on estrogen and ultimately be chemically sterilized and
so on. All these horrible things, it really does reveal
evil for what it is, and it can then reveal
good for what it is, and the wisdom of God's
creation order that we were meant to live in.
S1 (34:22):
What an excellent observation. I particularly love what you offered
as a challenge to believers as well to be able
to say, look again, God has a better plan for
your life. There's a better way for what you're doing.
So that's our hope. And I think one of the
things that you're stated impliedly over and over again, Nathaniel,
is the idea that again, don't look to Washington. Your
redemption does not come by way of Washington. I'm thankful
(34:44):
for what we've got in terms of movement in the
right direction, declarations through governmental guidance in the agencies here
in DC saying, hey, sex is defined as your biological
sex at birth period, end of statement. Those are bright
little spots as we move forward on this. But the
bigger question is really, are we going to maintain practice,
(35:04):
implement support and believe in a transcendent Christian sexual ethic.
These kinds of questions challenge us to do just that,
don't they? But when we retreat, when we say, I
don't want to offend anybody, I don't want to use, um,
you know, to be accused of using a dead name
or the wrong pronouns. Well, is there a way to
speak truth and love through a grace narrative? Because in
(35:24):
so doing, we uphold that standard of a Christian sexual ethic,
do we not?
S5 (35:29):
Yes. And I think it's important to remember that we
can fail to love our neighbor by not speaking the truth. Yes.
Speaking too harshly or cruelly, even if true, can be unloving.
But not speaking the truth is also unloving. And additionally,
we definitely have something better because Christianity. Yes, it directs
(35:50):
us towards our ultimate good in knowing God and enjoying
him forever. But it also has a lot of insight
about what it means to live in this life, how
to live in this life. And that's where Christians speaking
to a culture wounded by the sexual revolution can shine.
I quote Andrew Walker, the Baptist theologian, saying one coming
(36:13):
in the coming days, one of the best witnesses to
Christian faith is going to be Christian living.
S1 (36:18):
Amen to that. Someone once said, and I can put
it far more simply, your life might be the only
Bible some people will ever read, but in a more
transcendent way. Remember, you are an ambassador for Christ. So
it isn't just our words, it's the way in which
we live out our lives as well. Doctor Nathaniel Blake
is with us. His brand new book is called victims
of the Revolution How Sexual Liberation Hurt Us All in
(36:40):
the market, with Janet Parshall. Go to the red box
right under the summation of today's broadcast. It'll say program
details and audio. Clicking on takes you to the information page.
You've got a link to the Ethics and Public Policy Center,
as well as a link to Doctor Nathaniel Blake's brand
new book, Back After This. Victims of the Revolution how
(37:09):
sexual liberation hurts us all. Brand new book by Doctor
Nathaniel Blake who is at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Nathaniel,
in the book you ask a question, and I think
it's very germane when you talk about sexual choices, sexual
activity and sexual ethic. And the question was this does
desire define define us? Does it?
S5 (37:29):
Well, I don't think so. But our culture says so.
It says that you are what you desire and that
the key to authentic human living, to authentic, flourishing and
well-being is to indulge your desires, especially your sexual desires,
because those seem so powerful, so central to who we are.
(37:49):
In contrast, ancient pagan philosophers would have said no, you
instead should be defined. Sexual liberation means containing your desires,
controlling them through the use of reason. Christianity goes a
step further. It says, no, you are not defined by
your desires. You are defined by Christ, and you are
defined by your sanctification. You are defined by becoming more
(38:13):
Christ like. And therefore, instead of being defined by your desires,
often sinful, you are defined by the righteousness that is
imputed to us first as believers, and then that we
also gain through the process of sanctification. So instead of
saying be defined by desire. No, that's sinful in many cases.
(38:37):
Instead be defined by being Christ like. That is what
it means. That is who you should be. And that
will then direct which desires you should have, which you
should encourage, which you should repress. And ultimately that is
about love. Love for God and a genuine love for
other people that seeks they are good rather than merely
(38:57):
our own selfish indulgence or pleasure.
S1 (39:01):
You took me exactly where I wanted to go. And
that is. Let's linger here for a few minutes and
talk about the distinction between sex and love. You know,
when all else fails, go back and read the instructions again.
In a postmodern culture where we find ourselves today, it
seems to me we have this sloppy definition of what
love is. And sometimes we think it means the same
as sex. Break that down for me. Walk us through this.
S5 (39:23):
Okay, so our culture says sex can mean love if
you want it to. And frequently what that actually means
is sex is love. If you want to have sex
and you're trying to convince yourself or somebody else that
that is what is good. But love is about the
good of the other person. It's about wanting what is
(39:43):
best for them. And consequently that means, in many cases,
restraining oneself. If we want as a society social justice,
that means we have to pursue sexual righteousness. Because look
at how many things are hurt, damaged by bisexual selfishness.
If we want to pursue strong marriages, we need to
(40:05):
restrain ourselves at times to be unselfish, be loving. And
that's not at all the same thing as simply pursuing
maximal sexual pleasure. And as we touched on earlier, the
pursuit of sexual pleasure tends to be self-defeating anyway, because
by cutting itself off from genuine love, it also tends
(40:25):
to break down the relationships in which people are committed
to each other and therefore free in that Christian marriage
to love each other sexually. And instead, people find themselves
alone and pursuing hookups and pursuing short term relationships.
S1 (40:45):
Yeah, you touch on this in the book, too. And
it's interesting because I recently did a critique on a
book entitled Queer and Christian, and it's this torturous effort
to try to say that somehow what the Bible said
has no relevance for today, or we misunderstood its application
in the times, or we were talking about licentiousness. We're
not talking about a monogamous relationship. If it's, you know,
(41:08):
polyamory or if it's same sex, as long as it's monogamous,
that's the transcendent. And that's really what the Bible was
talking about. In fact, you write an alternative claim meant
to reconcile Christianity in the sexual revolution is that the
church has misunderstood Jesus and the apostles and their condemnations
of sexual immorality, and that did not mean what the
church has taken them to mean. In particular, this argument
has been deployed to claim that when the apostles condemned homosexuality,
(41:30):
they didn't mean homosexuality as such, but just exploitive homosexual relationships.
Just exactly what I was just saying. So, um, I
guess it's a quintessential posturing, is it not that situational
ethics any means whatsoever is justifiable as long as you
get to your desired end, as opposed to grasping hold
of the transcendent, immutable truth that applies to all people
(41:50):
in all times and all places. And that's the marvelous thing,
it seems to me, about the Christian sexual ethic. It
is all people that fall under the protection of God's
love on this. Talk to me more about that.
S5 (42:03):
Well, I think that you bring up a great point,
which is that the Christian sexual ethic, it has been
dismissed as scolding a killjoy. More recently, it's been denounced
as bigotry. But in fact, it is protective. It is nurturing.
It is preserving because it is designed to direct the
unruly sexual desires that humans have towards that which is
(42:28):
conducive to loving relationships, committed relationships, the good of children,
the good of culture, the good of society. So instead
of the anarchic passions that our culture tells us to
just run, run wild with deleterious effects despite our massive
technological prowess and wealth. Christianity says no. We are preserving something.
(42:50):
We're protecting something and it is good. And if we
look at that, it is good. It is the union
of a man and a woman coming together, vowing to
love each other for richer, for poorer, for in sickness
and in health, till death do us part. That is
an incredible, profound promise to make. That is a sort
(43:11):
of promise that you can build a life around, that
you can build the culture around that you can rely
on to build a family with.
S3 (43:21):
Oh.
S1 (43:22):
I love the way you end the book because you
really do challenge us. You point out some of the
things in Scripture that underscore how important this ethic is.
You know, when you drop it the way you did
about John's martyrdom, he points out the fact, right, that
the the Jewish leader is having a nefarious affair. And
so his protection of the Christian ethic of marriage and
sexuality ends up having John lose his head from his shoulders.
(43:44):
So some of these things are worth fighting for. But
as you pointed out earlier, and I love this, Nathaniel,
we can fight best by being exemplary in our own
marriages and in our own lives, make our marriages built
on a solid Christian ethic attractive to the rest of
the world. And then, without even the use of words,
it'll be a wonderful way to start healing up the brokenhearted.
(44:04):
Because the truth of the matter is, their revolution left
heartache in its wake and emptiness was its outcome. That's
why your book, Nathaniel, is so very important. Thank you
for the research you did on it. Thank you for
the deep theological insights that you offered into the book
as well. It's called victims of the Revolution How Sexual
Liberation Hurts Us All. Again, let me point out that
you can listen to this podcast, share it with a friend.
(44:26):
Just go to wherever you find your favorite podcast in
the market with Janet Parshall, or you can go to
the information page at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Nathaniel,
from the bottom of my heart, thank you for a
great and memorable hour. And friends, let me encourage you
to understand. When God says it, he says it because
he loves us and he means that. And we have
an opportunity to be his ambassadors in a hurting world.
And there's a lot of hurt around us. Thanks, friends.
(44:48):
We'll see you next time.
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