April 18, 2025 • 44 mins
As we approach Easter, join us to hear an apologetic argument for the validity of the Gospel accounts of Jesus’ death and resurrection. Our guest, Dr. Joe Bergeron, will use his medical expertise to examine the medical aspects of Jesus’ death and as well as the "hallucination hypothesis" which attempts to discount Jesus' resurrection. Learn the history, significance, and trustworthiness of the Gospels as reliable eyewitness testimony.
Become a Parshall Partner: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/inthemarket/partners
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
Hi friends, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and it is my sincere hope that you'll hear something
that will equip you, edify you, encourage you, enlighten you,
and then gently but consistently push you out into the
marketplace of ideas where you can let your light so
shine before men and go and tell them the good news.
Before you listen to this podcast, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Jesus Book,
(00:20):
written by pastor Jack Graham. I love it because he
really does recognize the fact that biblical literacy is declining,
and that a lot of people think that the Bible
is too complicated, that it's written for pastors or for scholars.
And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
And that book was written for every single one of us.
We just need a better way to know how to
study God's Word. And that's exactly what the Jesus Book
(00:42):
is all about. So when you give a gift of
any amount this month, I'm going to give you a
copy of the Jesus Book by doctor Jack Graham. Just
call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or give
online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Also consider
becoming a partial partner. Partial partners always get the monthly
truth tool, but in addition, they get a weekly newsletter
(01:03):
that includes some of my writing and an audio piece
only from my partial partners. So whether you want to
give one time or you want to support the program
every single month, just call eight 7758 or online at
In the Market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom
of the page. Thanks so much for letting me take
a moment of your time. And now please enjoy the broadcast.
(01:28):
Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for
choosing to spend the next hour with us. Today's program
is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But
thanks so much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:42):
What are you willing to give me if I deliver
him to you?
S3 (01:48):
And they counted out to him 30 pieces of silver.
So from that time he sought opportunity to betray him. Now,
on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread,
The disciples came to Jesus.
S4 (02:01):
Where do you want us to prepare for you to
eat the Passover?
S5 (02:05):
Go into the city to a certain man and say
to him, the teacher says, my time is at hand.
I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.
S3 (02:26):
So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and
they prepared the Passover. When evening had come, he sat
down with the 12. Now as they were eating, he said.
S5 (02:39):
Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.
S3 (02:46):
And they were exceedingly sorrowful. And each of them began
to say to him.
S6 (02:52):
Lord, is it I.
S7 (02:54):
Lord? Is it I?
S5 (02:57):
He who dipped his hand with me in the dish
will betray me. The Son of Man indeed goes just
as it is written of him. But woe to that
man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It
would have been good for that man if he had
not been born.
S3 (03:18):
Then Judas, who was betraying him, answered.
S2 (03:21):
Rabbi, is it I?
S5 (03:25):
You have said it.
S1 (03:34):
As we think what Jesus did for us. If it
doesn't take our breath away, then I think we fail
to understand the profundity of what he did for us.
God so loved. How do you put love and a
cross together? That's what we're going to talk about this hour.
So loved the world that he gave his only son,
that whoever believes in him will not perish but have
(03:56):
everlasting life. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
This hour we're going to spend looking at the crucifixion
of Jesus. And what a particularly interesting vantage point we
will look at this from. We're going to talk to
a medical doctor, because this medical doctor has written a
book that examines the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Doctor Joe Bergeron is with us. He is a physical
(04:17):
medicine and rehabilitation specialist in Indianapolis, Indiana. He's been practicing
for almost three decades. He authored a peer reviewed medical
journal article on Jesus's cause of death for the Journal
of Forensic and Legal Medicine. He also co-authored an article
with Doctor Gary Habermas. He's been on this program several
times for the Irish Theological Quarterly. They decided that they
(04:39):
would examine something known as the hallucination hypothesis. That, of course,
seeks to explain away the disciples belief that Jesus had
in fact risen bodily from the dead. So he then
went one step further to write this amazing book that
not only looks at the physicality of crucifixion, complete with
artists works and bones and graphics, but also the history
(05:00):
of what's. Going on the political history, the biblical history,
the eyewitness accounts, and puts it all together in a
book called The Crucifixion of Jesus, a medical doctor examines
the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron, I thank
you from the bottom of my heart, not just for
the gift of your book, for the gift of your
time as well. And it's very clear that while you
practice medicine, you have a passion for apologetics. Tell me
(05:22):
how that was birthed in your life.
S8 (05:25):
Well, good to be with you, Janet. I love your
show and I'm a listener. 35 years ago I was
in ministry, and I did some missionary work in those
days and retained the passion to share the gospel. And
as I transitioned into a medical life, I've done some
(05:45):
missionary work, but I became interested in telling the story
of Jesus from a medical perspective. It started in 2008
when I was asked to give a lecture for the
Christian Student group at Indiana University, and that launched me
onto an obsession of of study that has spanned the
decade and resulted in the two journal articles you mentioned,
(06:08):
as well as the book, each of which took several
years to write.
S1 (06:12):
You could embrace this academically. You could look at this medically.
But I believe that the way you've looked at this
tells me, especially if you've stayed with this topic, that
there's something that fuels your faith, your belief in what
Jesus did for us by studying this. Is that a
right presumption on my part?
S8 (06:30):
Oh, yes. Uh, and as I said in the prologue
of my book, you know, 60 to 80% of young
people who grew up in church abandon their faith when
they go to the university, usually in the first year.
And that's a that's an epidemic far worse than Covid 19.
(06:50):
But it's affecting our our young people in a pervasive way.
And so what I did, I knew that not many
people were going to read academic journal articles, so I
wanted to speak to a broader audience and specifically college
students and young college graduates. And I wanted to write
it in such a way that anybody that really didn't
know much of anything about Jesus could pick it up
(07:13):
and get a sense of the history and who the
political players were. What was the conspiracy? What were the
events that happened? What how he died and what it
means to us as Christians? Um, and I after I
wrote it, I kind of came to the conclusion, hey,
you know, I wrote this like, like a legal report. Um,
(07:34):
I wasn't thinking about it that way, but that's how
it came out. And I, you know, a certain amount
of my practice has been doing medical legal work where
I had to define, uh, mechanism of injury causation, impairment, prognosis,
those sorts of things. And so that's the way I
structured the book. When I first started studying the crucifixion,
(07:57):
I was perplexed because, you know, as I said, I
lectured for the medical student group and I collected everything
physicians had written. And I, I was astonished that there
wasn't a consensus among physician medical writers about how Jesus
actually died. Now Jesus cause of death was crucifixion. But
(08:18):
in medical language, when we talk about the physiological mechanism
of resulting in the end of life, we describe that
as the mechanism of death. And that's something that there
really wasn't a consensus about. And that just didn't sit
with me because, uh, in my work, I'm not allowed
that kind of luxury to equivocate. I had to define
(08:41):
what was happening. What? Uh, what? I can hear you
in the background music.
S1 (08:50):
Well. Go ahead.
S8 (08:53):
I had to define what was happening, and that that
I thought could be done with a reasonable degree of
medical certainty with careful study.
S1 (09:03):
Well, I know my friends by now know that this
is going to be a fascinating conversation. So let me
take a break and pick up the conversation right at
this point. Doctor Joe Bergeron is with us. He's written
the book The Crucifixion of Jesus. A medical doctor examines
the death and resurrection of Christ. More after this. Bible
(09:26):
literacy is declining even among Christians. It's time for us
to cultivate Bible reading habits that will transform our faith.
That's why I've chosen the Jesus Book as this month's
truth tool. Discover how to apply Scripture to our everyday
lives and to know its power. As for your copy
of the Jesus Book, when you give a gift of
any amount to in the market, call 877 58. That's
(09:46):
eight 7758 or go online to in the market with
Janet Parshall. partial owner.
S6 (09:54):
Is.
S3 (09:57):
Now the chief priests, the elders and all the council
sought false testimony against Jesus to put him to death,
but found none, even though many false witnesses came forward.
They found none. But at last, two false witnesses came forward.
S9 (10:15):
This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple
of God and to build it in three days.
S3 (10:25):
And the high priest arose and said to him.
S10 (10:28):
Do you answer nothing? What is it? These men testify
against you?
S3 (10:34):
But Jesus kept silent, and the high priest answered and
said to him.
S10 (10:39):
I put you under oath by the living God. Tell
us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.
S5 (10:47):
It is as you said. Nevertheless I say to you.
Hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at
the right hand of the power and coming on the
clouds of heaven.
S3 (11:03):
Then the high priest tore his clothes.
S10 (11:05):
He has spoken blasphemy. What further need do we have
of witnesses? Look, now you have heard his blasphemy. What
do you think?
S9 (11:16):
He is deserving of death.
S3 (11:18):
Then they spat in his face and beat him. And
others struck him with the palms of their hands.
S11 (11:25):
Prophesy to us, Christ. Who is the one who struck you?
S1 (11:29):
Thinking again what it says in the book of Isaiah
about those beatings, for example, being beaten beyond recognition, we're
going to talk more about that as we continue our
conversation with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who's a practicing physician. Been
in medicine for close to three decades, and he's written
a book called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A medical doctor
examines the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron, you
(11:50):
do this excellent job, as I noted earlier, of contextualizing this,
not just getting to the physiology of the cause of
death vis a vis crucifixion, but also you drop this
into a profoundly important history lesson. So let me pick
up on that clip that we just heard. You have
an entire section dedicated to what you refer to as
the politics of the day. And for a lot of people,
and I know we're speaking to people from Guam to
(12:12):
the Cayman Islands, some of whom know the story inside
out and upside down, others for whom they're not quite
sure why. As believers, this Easter week is so important
to us, and why Good Friday means so much to us.
Followed by, of course, Resurrection Sunday. But the politics of
the day is unique because here's Jesus with these the
(12:32):
split venues for trials. Talk to us a little bit
about the Jewish trials, the Roman trials, who who superseded whom,
and how did the two interface with one another?
S8 (12:42):
Yes, and I didn't realize this myself until I started
studying it in depth. You know, Jesus was arrested in
the Garden of Gethsemane, and through the night he walked.
About 2.2 miles, and he was first taken to the
house of Caiaphas. And. Anaphase, which would have been a multifamily, uh, mansion,
if you will. And he was placed on trial there.
(13:04):
Part of what you heard in the in the clip previously.
What is underappreciated is that Jesus was beaten severely there.
And the Jews had, um, free license for corporal punishment.
They had lost capital, uh, authority by the time of Jesus.
(13:25):
But they could beat a criminal. Uh, as long as
they were not a Roman, uh, with 40 lashes. And
so we have to presume that Jesus was beaten severely
there because he was guilty of blasphemy in their mind. Uh,
something that was, uh, punishable by death. So his beating
(13:48):
would have been particularly severe before he was ever taken
to Pilate. Then he's taken to Pilate. And Pilate, of course,
recognizes that motivation of jealousy and seeks to, you know,
absolve himself of the responsibility. But because it was a
(14:10):
capital offense that they brought Jesus for, namely political insurrection,
he had to examine Jesus. And, uh, you know, the
the story is that the crowd pushed the agenda to,
to bring Jesus to crucifixion. Now, when Jesus when when
Pilate washed his hands, that was a pointing to a
(14:33):
Hebrew law of unsolved murder, that in Jewish times, if
someone was killed and they found a corpse, they had
to get the elders of the city and go to
Who were in closest by. Go there and sacrifice a heifer.
And wash their hands and say a declaration to say
(14:56):
that the blood of this man is not on our hands.
And that's exactly what Pilate did. Because that was not
a Roman sort of tradition, but it was very understood
by the Jewish audience that Pilate was saying that he
was not guilty of killing the man. Rather, he was
indicting the crowd for crucifying Jesus. Then Jesus is turned
(15:23):
over to Roman soldiers who beat him severely. You know,
they they put a crown of thorns on his head. Um,
that may have been a reference to what was called
an obsidian crown. It was the most prized crown in
the Roman culture. That would be given to a military
commander after a heroic victory, when all seemed lost. They
(15:48):
would take shrubs from the area they had conquered, form
a crown, and place it on the victor's head. And
it was only by unanimous vote of the army. So
it was the most prized thing a Roman soldier could obtain.
And so, in my view, I think that's what they
were doing. They were mocking that obsidian crown. They put
(16:08):
a scepter in his hand, and then they struck him
with it a number of times. Now, Roman scourging was
different from the Jewish beating because they're scourging was unlimited.
They would beat the condemned prisoner with a whip called
a flagellum, which had leather strips with dumbbell pieces of
(16:31):
lead sewn into the end of it. There would be
more than one person, probably two, beating from both sides.
This would cause lacerations on the body from head to toe.
And Eusebius, the historian said that people watching this meeting
would be astonished. Seeing the lacerations down to the blood vessels,
(16:55):
even being able to see the internal organs.
S1 (16:59):
Oh my word. And again, as you just pointed out,
this is the second beating for Jesus in the story.
He's already taken one by the Jewish leadership. Let me
take a break and come right back. The book is
called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A medical doctor examines the
death and resurrection of Christ back after this.
S3 (17:33):
Now Jesus stood before the governor.
S6 (17:36):
Are you the King of the Jews?
S5 (17:40):
It is, as you say.
S3 (17:42):
And while he was being accused by the chief priests
and elders. He answered nothing.
S6 (17:47):
Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?
S3 (17:52):
But he answered him not one word, so that the
governor marveled greatly. Now at the feast the governor was
accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished.
And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. Therefore,
when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them.
S6 (18:14):
Whom do you want me to release to you, Barabbas,
or Jesus, who is called Christ?
S3 (18:21):
For he knew that they had handed him over because
of envy. While he was sitting on the judgment seat,
his wife sent to him.
S12 (18:30):
Have nothing to do with that just man. For I
have suffered many things today in a dream because of him.
S3 (18:42):
But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that
they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.
S6 (18:49):
Which of the two do you want me to release
to you?
S11 (18:53):
Barabbas.
S6 (18:55):
What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?
S13 (18:59):
Let him be crucified.
S6 (19:01):
Why? What evil has he done?
S3 (19:06):
But they cried out all the more.
S13 (19:11):
Let him be crucified.
S3 (19:12):
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all,
but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water
and washed his hands before the multitude.
S6 (19:21):
I am innocent of the blood of this just person.
You see to it.
S3 (19:29):
And all the people answered his blood.
S13 (19:31):
Be on us, be on us, and on our children.
S1 (19:37):
We're talking about the crucifixion of Jesus with the doctor,
Joe Bergeron, who is a practicing physician, but he's also
interested in the world of apologetics. And so he co-authored
an article with Doctor Gary Habermas for the Irish Theological Quarterly,
taking a look at what's known as the hallucination hypothesis.
If time allows, I want to get into that a
little bit. But he also authored a peer reviewed medical
(19:57):
journal article on Jesus's cause of death for the Journal
of Forensic and Legal Medicine. You can read much of
this in his new book, The Crucifixion of Jesus. A
medical doctor examines the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron,
let me go to the fact that you pointed out
how severe the bleeding the beating was under the Jewish authorities. Again,
they were they did not have the right of capital punishment,
(20:18):
meaning they could not take a life. They couldn't beat
a Roman citizen. So they had some restraints on what
they could do, so they could beat him severely. And
they did. And then you just talked about the Roman scourging,
which is this weapon of mutilation, exposing even internal organs.
It raises an interesting question from a medical vantage point,
which is after those two severe beatings, you wonder how
(20:41):
Jesus had the strength then to take his cross and
to walk to Calvary. We know he didn't do it
the whole way. This is where we have the character
who steps in Simeon and in Simon, and carries the
part of the cross. Before I get to that, just
from a medical vantage point. How do you think he
was able to even stand and walk even a short
distance with part of the cross?
S8 (21:02):
That's really hard to say, because he was beaten near
to death, and that the Roman philosopher Seneca said that
people would have many causes or excuses to die prior
to to mounting the cross. That was particularly true in
the case of Jesus. And again, the Roman soldiers were
particularly harsh with him because his charge was political insurrection
(21:27):
and the Romans had anti-Semitic tendencies anyway. But to say
that you're the king of that area, in defiance of Caesar,
would have heightened their ire and made the beating all
the more harsh the process of crucifixion would be that
the condemned criminal would be delivered to a crucifixion team.
The team would be led by the centurion and at
(21:50):
least four soldiers and the they would complete the scourging.
Then they would place the horizontal section of the cross,
called the Patibulum, on the back of the condemned, along
with a plaque called the Titulus Crucis, which named the
(22:11):
capital crimes for which they were being executed. With Jesus,
it said, the King of the Jews. Now the vertical
section of the cross was permanently placed in the ground.
Jesus was executed on what's called a Tau cross or
crux commissa, and the soldiers would march the condemned to
(22:32):
the naked, generally to the crucifixion site. Fasten the arms
to the patibulum the. The uh uh uh uh um, uh,
horizontal section and then fasten the hands with nails. Now,
if you take your ring finger and bend it back
as far as you can to touch the bottom of
the wrist crease, that if you drive a nail through
(22:55):
that spot, it will go through the wrist bones without
fracturing them, and place a stable fixation of the arm
against the wood. If you were to drive a nail
inside to the center of the palm, that would pull
out with about £100 of extraction force, and so it
would have been done through the wrist bones or, or
(23:16):
possibly just, uh, proximal or just above the wrist. And
that's there's a quirky medical mind that Doctor Pierre Barbet took, uh,
a dozen amputated hands and repeated that experiment. They all
came out the same. The nail went through the wrist
bones without fracturing them. Uh, it did macerate the nerves
(23:37):
that were passing through that area, which would be extraordinarily painful. Um, but, um,
but that's how the nails were placed. Uh, the condemned
would then be lifted by the soldiers and placed on
the vertical section of the cross with a mortise and
tenon coupling.
S1 (23:54):
Wow. Let me pick it up exactly at that point.
By the way, in the book, you have actually photos
of some of the x rays that Pierre Barbet did
with his experiments on hands and where a nail could
go without breaking any bones, which is, of course significant
because Scripture tells us no bones were broken. Absolutely fascinating book.
It's called The Crucifixion of Jesus back after this. Friends,
(24:27):
this is Janet Parshall, and I want to take a
moment to remind you that today's program is prerecorded so
our phone lines aren't open. But I sure do appreciate
your spending the hour with us. And thanks so much
and enjoy the rest of the program. Anyone can read
the news every day on in the market. We're committed
to telling the news as seen through the lens of Scripture.
(24:48):
As Christians, we must be informed about what's going on
in the world and respond appropriately. When you become a
partial partner, you ensure that we continue here on your station,
equipping the church to discuss current events, using the Bible
as our solid foundation. Why not become a partial partner today?
Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the
market with Janet Parshall.
S3 (25:12):
Now as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene,
Simon by name him they compelled to bear his cross.
And when they had come to a place called Golgotha,
that is to say, place of a skull, they gave
him sour wine, mingled with gall to drink. But when
(25:34):
he had tasted it he would not drink. Then they
crucified him and divided his garments, casting lots, that it
might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.
S14 (25:54):
They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing
they cast lots.
S3 (26:00):
Sitting down they kept watch over him there. And they
put up over his head the accusation written against him.
This is Jesus, the king of the Jews. Then two
robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and
another on the left. And those who passed by blasphemed him,
wagging their heads.
S10 (26:19):
You who destroy the.
S15 (26:21):
Temple and build it in three days, save yourself.
S16 (26:25):
If you are the Son of God, come down from
the cross.
S3 (26:29):
Likewise the chief priests, also mocking with the scribes and elders,
said he saved others.
S6 (26:37):
Himself he cannot save.
S9 (26:39):
If he is the King of Israel, let him now
come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
S10 (26:46):
He trusted in God. Let him deliver him now, if
he will have him. For he said, I am the
Son of God.
S3 (26:55):
Even the robbers who were crucified with him reviled him
with the same thing. Now, from the sixth hour until
the ninth hour, there was darkness over all the land.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a
(27:18):
loud voice.
S5 (27:20):
Hallo, lama sabachthani!
S3 (27:27):
That is my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Some of those who stood there when they heard that said.
S17 (27:35):
This man is calling for Elijah.
S3 (27:38):
Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled
it with sour wine, and put it on a reed
and offered it to him to drink.
S16 (27:46):
Let him alone. Let us see if Elijah will come
to save him.
S3 (27:51):
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice. And
yielded up his spirit.
S1 (28:03):
And that's what we are discussing, the crucifixion of Jesus.
We are talking with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who is offering
us a medical doctor's perspective on the death and resurrection
of Jesus. If you've missed the first half, I'm glad
to tell you that you can download the podcast so
you can hear everything that has been said up to
this point. Simply go to the website in the market
with Janet Parshall. Left hand side two words past programs.
(28:26):
Click on download the full hour and listen to this
program again and again, and share it with someone who's
a seeker, or a skeptic or a cynic, or doesn't
believe that this can be historically substantiated or does not
understand what Jesus did for us. That's what this is
all about. So, Doctor Bergeron, let me go to the
crucifixion itself. You pointed out that you thought that this
(28:48):
was more of a tau cross, which means more of
a T than the typical cross figure that we think about.
But you spend time talking about the feet. What happens
in a crucifixion, and you have some archaeological bones that
also discuss this as well?
S8 (29:03):
Yes, that's very interesting because, you know, the Romans used
crucifixion as their it was called the summa supplica, the
supreme punishment. And they used it for six centuries. Um, Josephus,
who was eyewitness of the war, the Roman war with
the Jews from A.D. 66 through 70, said that, um,
(29:28):
up to 500 people at a time were crucified. So
that's a lot of people. and during the Spartacus Rebellion
in 70 BC, the Romans crucified 6000 people on the
Appian Appian Road, the Roman highway 120km from Capua to Rome.
So they had an intense belief in capital punishment as
(29:50):
a deterrent. And it was used, you know, constantly over
that time, they would have crucified thousands, maybe hundreds of
thousands of people. But there are only two archaeological finds.
So and it's known that the reason for that is
that the victim would be left on the cross to
be eaten by scavenging animals. The victim could the the
(30:14):
friends and family could request the remains of the victim
for burial. And there have been two archaeological finds. One
was in Jerusalem, which was dated to the early part
of the first century, and the second one was found
in northern Italy and just reported in 2018. Both of
(30:36):
those finds show the nail going through the heel, the
calcaneus bone. And so, at least based on that archaeological evidence,
we believe it seems likely that that was how they
did it. And and if you think about it, it
would maybe be easier to drive a nail through the
heel than through the top of a foot when the
(30:59):
the victim is protesting. And incidentally, the the idea that
it was nailed, the feet were nailed to the front
of the cross. In our artistic imagination, there's no no
record to account for that. Um, and then what I
think is, is doubly fascinating is what's called the proto Evangelium,
which is in Genesis 315, where God speaks to Satan.
(31:23):
He speaks to the serpent, and he says, the offspring
of the woman is going to crush your head and
you're going to bruise his heel. So I think that
that was probably the way it was done. The find
in Jerusalem. The the heels were in a configuration that
the legs would have been parallel, rotated to the right,
(31:45):
and the nail driven through each of the calcaneus bones
with a a wood between the head of the nail
and the bone. The reason that we know that is
because one of the nails got bent and it couldn't,
couldn't be extracted from the bone and reused. Um, and
so what they had to do was amputate the foot
(32:06):
and then pry the nail off that way to get
it off the cross and to remove the body.
S1 (32:11):
So in this and by the way, you quote Seneca
as saying that there were all kinds of modalities of crucifixion,
sometimes upside down and various different ways, which I thought
was fascinating in and of itself. But now, especially from
your vantage point as a physician. So the cause of death,
first of all, Jesus cries out, talk to me about
(32:31):
dehydration on the cross. This. It seems to me, is
completely understandable. Not only is there a fulfillment of scripture
on this, but why would this have been something that
you would have witnessed in a crucifixion that you're talking
about being exposed to the elements? So dehydration, it seems
to me, would be a natural response to this.
S8 (32:49):
The most plausible explanation for Jesus death is traumatic hemorrhagic shock.
You'd asked me previously about why he couldn't walk to
the crucifixion site. That is because it looks like he
was starting to progress into shock at that time, and
the initial symptoms of shock would be being lightheaded, dizzy, palpitations,
feeling clammy, weak, those sorts of things. And that, uh,
(33:13):
precluded him from being able to walk to the crucifixion site.
But Jesus had extensive beating and blood loss. He would
have been deprived of, uh, fluids from the arrest onward.
And the thirst that occurs with shock and shock is
is a diminished blood flow to tissues and vital organs. Um,
(33:40):
and in Jesus case, the reason for that would be
blood loss. When that occurs, the brain itself is stimulated
by two mechanisms. There are pressure sensors and arteries called
baroreceptors that would stimulate the area of the brain that's
responsible for thirst. And there's a mechanism of the, uh,
in the kidneys that would do the same thing. The
(34:01):
angiotensin system would also stimulate the brain. So you have
two mechanisms that are directly stimulating the brain. That's different
than being thirsty like you and I get. This is
something that that the brain is being stimulated in a
significant way, to the point that people that are succumbing
to shock, they would have such a maddening type of
(34:22):
thirst that they would have hallucinations and of water and
those types of things. So when Jesus said, I thirst,
he was. It was probably a scream.
S1 (34:32):
Now the certainty of death. You write about this as well,
and you point out that the discipline within the Roman
legions was brutal, if not inhumane, and that if you
nodded off, if you were assigned to watch for crucifixion,
if you nodded off or fell asleep, you, as the soldier,
could have been beaten to death. So it was imperative
that the task be completed. Talk to me about this.
S8 (34:53):
Yes. When we have a hint from that in acts
chapter 15, where the Philippian jailer was going to fall
on his sword when he thought Paul and Silas had
had escaped, but for a crucifixion team to allow a
capital criminal to escape crucifixion would have meant their death.
And so they were not going to release a body,
and again, they would stay. The bodies would be left
(35:15):
on the cross. Now, you know, in the Passover, they
wanted the bodies to be taken down. And as I said,
the body could be requested. But there there is literary
evidence to suggest that a body would not be released
unless a fatal stab wound was given to the victim
(35:35):
and death verified for the authorities. Pilate himself was surprised
that Jesus had died so rapidly, but he did release
the body to Joseph of Arimathea.
S1 (35:48):
And that's exactly where I want to pick this up
when we come back. The book is called The Crucifixion
of Jesus. A medical doctor examines the death and resurrection
of Jesus. It's an absolutely fascinating read. It's a sober
read when you realize that, well, by his stripes we
are healed. And that puts that into a much deeper perspective.
Let's take a break back after this.
S3 (36:33):
Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the
week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a
great earthquake. For an angel of the Lord descended from heaven,
and came and rolled back the stone from the door
(36:55):
and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and
his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook
for fear of him, and became like dead men. But
the angel answered and said to the women.
S18 (37:10):
Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek
Jesus who was crucified. He is not here. For he
is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where
the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples
that he is risen from the dead, and indeed he
is going before you into Galilee. There you will see him. Behold,
(37:36):
I have told you.
S3 (37:40):
So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear
and great joy, and ran to bring his disciples word.
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus
met them.
S5 (37:51):
Rejoice!
S3 (37:52):
So they came and held him by the feet and
worshipped him.
S5 (37:57):
Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brethren to
go to Galilee, and there they will see me.
S3 (38:07):
Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard
came into the city and reported to the chief priests
all the things that had happened. When they had assembled
with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large
sum of money to the soldiers.
S9 (38:23):
Tell them his disciples came at night and stole him
away while we slept. And if this comes to the
governor's ears, we will appease him and make you secure.
S3 (38:33):
So they took the money and did as they were instructed.
And this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until
this day. Then the 11 disciples went away into Galilee,
to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When
(38:58):
they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. And
Jesus came and spoke to them.
S5 (39:06):
All authority has been given to me in heaven and
on earth. Go therefore, and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the father, and of
the son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to
observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo,
(39:31):
I am with you always, even to the end of
the age.
S3 (39:35):
Amen.
S1 (39:38):
That is the best news you will hear all day long.
We are talking with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who's a practicing physician,
and he has a great interest into the crucifixion of
Jesus Christ. Apologetics. Apologetics generally, but in particular this topic
of the crucifixion of Jesus. He's written a book to
that end, it is called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A
medical doctor examines the death and resurrection of Christ. And
(40:01):
for the record, there is oh so much more in
this book than I can possibly cover. So I hope
I'm piquing your curiosity so that you'll want to pursue
and get a copy yourself. So, Doctor Bergeron, let me
go back, because I do want to get into the
hallucination hypothesis right now. But if you look at the
cause of death, you say that it is predominantly understood
(40:22):
that it would not have been suffocation difficult, as you
point out, to have a conversation with thieves when you're suffocating,
but rather it would be trauma that would have been
the result of this cardiac and respiratory arrest due to
trauma shock. All of this as a result of the crucifixion.
That's significant because doesn't that begin to auger out if
(40:43):
you understand the certainty of death, the cause of death?
Doesn't that speak into the vacuous nature of some of
these theories, the swoon theory or the hallucination hypothesis? Talk
to me about this.
S8 (40:55):
Well, the swoon theory is simply not possible based on
the things we've already discussed in terms of Roman military authority.
And people have asked me, has anyone ever survived a crucifixion?
And the answer is there was one person. And Josephus,
who was a Jewish historian and defected and became a
(41:15):
Roman citizen. And as I said, he was an eyewitness
of the Roman War between 66 and 74 A.D. B,
he saw three of his friends being crucified, and he
quickly was able to get a stay of execution for
his friends. They were taken down. Two of them died anyway,
and one of them nursed back to health. And that's
(41:39):
the only. And I've studied everything I can find. That's
the only record of anyone ever surviving. And for the
reason that I said they were going to stay on
the cross until they died, they were verified dead by
the Roman team or the team themselves were going to die,
and then their bodies were left there to be eaten
by animals for intimidation. Um, so when when shock progresses
(42:01):
to a certain point, even in those people who were
taken off the cross, then it becomes unrecoverable and they're
going to die anyway. So, uh, and and Jesus told it,
I think Jesus told us his cause of death. He
he in Matthew chapter 26, he said he took the
(42:21):
cup and he said, this is my blood of the
new covenant that is poured out for the remission of sins.
And I, to me and to my medical mind, he
was making a medical statement, and he was telling us
that his cause of death was exsanguination or loss of blood.
Traumatic hemorrhagic shock. And he also told us why he
(42:41):
was doing it. He was inaugurating a new covenant that
God had foretold in Jeremiah 31, where he would forgive
his people, write the laws of God in their hearts,
forgive their sins, and remember them no more. So he
told us why he was doing it, and he told us,
in my view, how he was going to die. That's
by traumatic hemorrhagic shock. Um, but to to get to
(43:06):
the swoon theory, uh, you know, uh, or to hallucinations, rather.
I collected everything I could find on hallucination hypotheses. And
what I found was that it was a collection of
writings by theological, theological scholars or critical scholars. And they
(43:28):
would just write things and say that the disciples hallucinated,
and then they would stop and not provide any further
discussion beyond that. Um, and they may have been brilliant theologians,
but now they had ventured into a medical discussion which
they were not qualified to do, and expose them to
(43:48):
error in their opinions.
S1 (43:50):
Well, Doctor Bergeron, I could talk two more hours with
you on this. Let me use this instead as an
encouragement to my listeners, because you you have this beautiful
graph about explanations for Jesus's resurrections. And it leads to
one conclusion. Up from the grave he arose. Brilliant book.
I thank you for your passion on this topic. I
thank you for sharing it with the rest of us.
(44:12):
The crucified, the crucifixion of Jesus. Check it out at
In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Hi friends, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and it is my sincere hope that you'll hear something
that will equip you, edify you, encourage you, enlighten you,
and then gently but consistently push you out into the
marketplace of ideas where you can let your light so
shine before men and go and tell them the good news.
Before you listen to this podcast, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Jesus Book,
(00:20):
written by pastor Jack Graham. I love it because he
really does recognize the fact that biblical literacy is declining,
and that a lot of people think that the Bible
is too complicated, that it's written for pastors or for scholars.
And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
And that book was written for every single one of us.
We just need a better way to know how to
study God's Word. And that's exactly what the Jesus Book
(00:42):
is all about. So when you give a gift of
any amount this month, I'm going to give you a
copy of the Jesus Book by doctor Jack Graham. Just
call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or give
online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Also consider
becoming a partial partner. Partial partners always get the monthly
truth tool, but in addition, they get a weekly newsletter
(01:03):
that includes some of my writing and an audio piece
only from my partial partners. So whether you want to
give one time or you want to support the program
every single month, just call eight 7758 or online at
In the Market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom
of the page. Thanks so much for letting me take
a moment of your time. And now please enjoy the broadcast.
(01:28):
Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for
choosing to spend the next hour with us. Today's program
is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But
thanks so much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:42):
What are you willing to give me if I deliver
him to you?
S3 (01:48):
And they counted out to him 30 pieces of silver.
So from that time he sought opportunity to betray him. Now,
on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread,
The disciples came to Jesus.
S4 (02:01):
Where do you want us to prepare for you to
eat the Passover?
S5 (02:05):
Go into the city to a certain man and say
to him, the teacher says, my time is at hand.
I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.
S3 (02:26):
So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and
they prepared the Passover. When evening had come, he sat
down with the 12. Now as they were eating, he said.
S5 (02:39):
Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.
S3 (02:46):
And they were exceedingly sorrowful. And each of them began
to say to him.
S6 (02:52):
Lord, is it I.
S7 (02:54):
Lord? Is it I?
S5 (02:57):
He who dipped his hand with me in the dish
will betray me. The Son of Man indeed goes just
as it is written of him. But woe to that
man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It
would have been good for that man if he had
not been born.
S3 (03:18):
Then Judas, who was betraying him, answered.
S2 (03:21):
Rabbi, is it I?
S5 (03:25):
You have said it.
S1 (03:34):
As we think what Jesus did for us. If it
doesn't take our breath away, then I think we fail
to understand the profundity of what he did for us.
God so loved. How do you put love and a
cross together? That's what we're going to talk about this hour.
So loved the world that he gave his only son,
that whoever believes in him will not perish but have
(03:56):
everlasting life. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
This hour we're going to spend looking at the crucifixion
of Jesus. And what a particularly interesting vantage point we
will look at this from. We're going to talk to
a medical doctor, because this medical doctor has written a
book that examines the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Doctor Joe Bergeron is with us. He is a physical
(04:17):
medicine and rehabilitation specialist in Indianapolis, Indiana. He's been practicing
for almost three decades. He authored a peer reviewed medical
journal article on Jesus's cause of death for the Journal
of Forensic and Legal Medicine. He also co-authored an article
with Doctor Gary Habermas. He's been on this program several
times for the Irish Theological Quarterly. They decided that they
(04:39):
would examine something known as the hallucination hypothesis. That, of course,
seeks to explain away the disciples belief that Jesus had
in fact risen bodily from the dead. So he then
went one step further to write this amazing book that
not only looks at the physicality of crucifixion, complete with
artists works and bones and graphics, but also the history
(05:00):
of what's. Going on the political history, the biblical history,
the eyewitness accounts, and puts it all together in a
book called The Crucifixion of Jesus, a medical doctor examines
the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron, I thank
you from the bottom of my heart, not just for
the gift of your book, for the gift of your
time as well. And it's very clear that while you
practice medicine, you have a passion for apologetics. Tell me
(05:22):
how that was birthed in your life.
S8 (05:25):
Well, good to be with you, Janet. I love your
show and I'm a listener. 35 years ago I was
in ministry, and I did some missionary work in those
days and retained the passion to share the gospel. And
as I transitioned into a medical life, I've done some
(05:45):
missionary work, but I became interested in telling the story
of Jesus from a medical perspective. It started in 2008
when I was asked to give a lecture for the
Christian Student group at Indiana University, and that launched me
onto an obsession of of study that has spanned the
decade and resulted in the two journal articles you mentioned,
(06:08):
as well as the book, each of which took several
years to write.
S1 (06:12):
You could embrace this academically. You could look at this medically.
But I believe that the way you've looked at this
tells me, especially if you've stayed with this topic, that
there's something that fuels your faith, your belief in what
Jesus did for us by studying this. Is that a
right presumption on my part?
S8 (06:30):
Oh, yes. Uh, and as I said in the prologue
of my book, you know, 60 to 80% of young
people who grew up in church abandon their faith when
they go to the university, usually in the first year.
And that's a that's an epidemic far worse than Covid 19.
(06:50):
But it's affecting our our young people in a pervasive way.
And so what I did, I knew that not many
people were going to read academic journal articles, so I
wanted to speak to a broader audience and specifically college
students and young college graduates. And I wanted to write
it in such a way that anybody that really didn't
know much of anything about Jesus could pick it up
(07:13):
and get a sense of the history and who the
political players were. What was the conspiracy? What were the
events that happened? What how he died and what it
means to us as Christians? Um, and I after I
wrote it, I kind of came to the conclusion, hey,
you know, I wrote this like, like a legal report. Um,
(07:34):
I wasn't thinking about it that way, but that's how
it came out. And I, you know, a certain amount
of my practice has been doing medical legal work where
I had to define, uh, mechanism of injury causation, impairment, prognosis,
those sorts of things. And so that's the way I
structured the book. When I first started studying the crucifixion,
(07:57):
I was perplexed because, you know, as I said, I
lectured for the medical student group and I collected everything
physicians had written. And I, I was astonished that there
wasn't a consensus among physician medical writers about how Jesus
actually died. Now Jesus cause of death was crucifixion. But
(08:18):
in medical language, when we talk about the physiological mechanism
of resulting in the end of life, we describe that
as the mechanism of death. And that's something that there
really wasn't a consensus about. And that just didn't sit
with me because, uh, in my work, I'm not allowed
that kind of luxury to equivocate. I had to define
(08:41):
what was happening. What? Uh, what? I can hear you
in the background music.
S1 (08:50):
Well. Go ahead.
S8 (08:53):
I had to define what was happening, and that that
I thought could be done with a reasonable degree of
medical certainty with careful study.
S1 (09:03):
Well, I know my friends by now know that this
is going to be a fascinating conversation. So let me
take a break and pick up the conversation right at
this point. Doctor Joe Bergeron is with us. He's written
the book The Crucifixion of Jesus. A medical doctor examines
the death and resurrection of Christ. More after this. Bible
(09:26):
literacy is declining even among Christians. It's time for us
to cultivate Bible reading habits that will transform our faith.
That's why I've chosen the Jesus Book as this month's
truth tool. Discover how to apply Scripture to our everyday
lives and to know its power. As for your copy
of the Jesus Book, when you give a gift of
any amount to in the market, call 877 58. That's
(09:46):
eight 7758 or go online to in the market with
Janet Parshall. partial owner.
S6 (09:54):
Is.
S3 (09:57):
Now the chief priests, the elders and all the council
sought false testimony against Jesus to put him to death,
but found none, even though many false witnesses came forward.
They found none. But at last, two false witnesses came forward.
S9 (10:15):
This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple
of God and to build it in three days.
S3 (10:25):
And the high priest arose and said to him.
S10 (10:28):
Do you answer nothing? What is it? These men testify
against you?
S3 (10:34):
But Jesus kept silent, and the high priest answered and
said to him.
S10 (10:39):
I put you under oath by the living God. Tell
us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.
S5 (10:47):
It is as you said. Nevertheless I say to you.
Hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at
the right hand of the power and coming on the
clouds of heaven.
S3 (11:03):
Then the high priest tore his clothes.
S10 (11:05):
He has spoken blasphemy. What further need do we have
of witnesses? Look, now you have heard his blasphemy. What
do you think?
S9 (11:16):
He is deserving of death.
S3 (11:18):
Then they spat in his face and beat him. And
others struck him with the palms of their hands.
S11 (11:25):
Prophesy to us, Christ. Who is the one who struck you?
S1 (11:29):
Thinking again what it says in the book of Isaiah
about those beatings, for example, being beaten beyond recognition, we're
going to talk more about that as we continue our
conversation with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who's a practicing physician. Been
in medicine for close to three decades, and he's written
a book called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A medical doctor
examines the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron, you
(11:50):
do this excellent job, as I noted earlier, of contextualizing this,
not just getting to the physiology of the cause of
death vis a vis crucifixion, but also you drop this
into a profoundly important history lesson. So let me pick
up on that clip that we just heard. You have
an entire section dedicated to what you refer to as
the politics of the day. And for a lot of people,
and I know we're speaking to people from Guam to
(12:12):
the Cayman Islands, some of whom know the story inside
out and upside down, others for whom they're not quite
sure why. As believers, this Easter week is so important
to us, and why Good Friday means so much to us.
Followed by, of course, Resurrection Sunday. But the politics of
the day is unique because here's Jesus with these the
(12:32):
split venues for trials. Talk to us a little bit
about the Jewish trials, the Roman trials, who who superseded whom,
and how did the two interface with one another?
S8 (12:42):
Yes, and I didn't realize this myself until I started
studying it in depth. You know, Jesus was arrested in
the Garden of Gethsemane, and through the night he walked.
About 2.2 miles, and he was first taken to the
house of Caiaphas. And. Anaphase, which would have been a multifamily, uh, mansion,
if you will. And he was placed on trial there.
(13:04):
Part of what you heard in the in the clip previously.
What is underappreciated is that Jesus was beaten severely there.
And the Jews had, um, free license for corporal punishment.
They had lost capital, uh, authority by the time of Jesus.
(13:25):
But they could beat a criminal. Uh, as long as
they were not a Roman, uh, with 40 lashes. And
so we have to presume that Jesus was beaten severely
there because he was guilty of blasphemy in their mind. Uh,
something that was, uh, punishable by death. So his beating
(13:48):
would have been particularly severe before he was ever taken
to Pilate. Then he's taken to Pilate. And Pilate, of course,
recognizes that motivation of jealousy and seeks to, you know,
absolve himself of the responsibility. But because it was a
(14:10):
capital offense that they brought Jesus for, namely political insurrection,
he had to examine Jesus. And, uh, you know, the
the story is that the crowd pushed the agenda to,
to bring Jesus to crucifixion. Now, when Jesus when when
Pilate washed his hands, that was a pointing to a
(14:33):
Hebrew law of unsolved murder, that in Jewish times, if
someone was killed and they found a corpse, they had
to get the elders of the city and go to
Who were in closest by. Go there and sacrifice a heifer.
And wash their hands and say a declaration to say
(14:56):
that the blood of this man is not on our hands.
And that's exactly what Pilate did. Because that was not
a Roman sort of tradition, but it was very understood
by the Jewish audience that Pilate was saying that he
was not guilty of killing the man. Rather, he was
indicting the crowd for crucifying Jesus. Then Jesus is turned
(15:23):
over to Roman soldiers who beat him severely. You know,
they they put a crown of thorns on his head. Um,
that may have been a reference to what was called
an obsidian crown. It was the most prized crown in
the Roman culture. That would be given to a military
commander after a heroic victory, when all seemed lost. They
(15:48):
would take shrubs from the area they had conquered, form
a crown, and place it on the victor's head. And
it was only by unanimous vote of the army. So
it was the most prized thing a Roman soldier could obtain.
And so, in my view, I think that's what they
were doing. They were mocking that obsidian crown. They put
(16:08):
a scepter in his hand, and then they struck him
with it a number of times. Now, Roman scourging was
different from the Jewish beating because they're scourging was unlimited.
They would beat the condemned prisoner with a whip called
a flagellum, which had leather strips with dumbbell pieces of
(16:31):
lead sewn into the end of it. There would be
more than one person, probably two, beating from both sides.
This would cause lacerations on the body from head to toe.
And Eusebius, the historian said that people watching this meeting
would be astonished. Seeing the lacerations down to the blood vessels,
(16:55):
even being able to see the internal organs.
S1 (16:59):
Oh my word. And again, as you just pointed out,
this is the second beating for Jesus in the story.
He's already taken one by the Jewish leadership. Let me
take a break and come right back. The book is
called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A medical doctor examines the
death and resurrection of Christ back after this.
S3 (17:33):
Now Jesus stood before the governor.
S6 (17:36):
Are you the King of the Jews?
S5 (17:40):
It is, as you say.
S3 (17:42):
And while he was being accused by the chief priests
and elders. He answered nothing.
S6 (17:47):
Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?
S3 (17:52):
But he answered him not one word, so that the
governor marveled greatly. Now at the feast the governor was
accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished.
And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. Therefore,
when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them.
S6 (18:14):
Whom do you want me to release to you, Barabbas,
or Jesus, who is called Christ?
S3 (18:21):
For he knew that they had handed him over because
of envy. While he was sitting on the judgment seat,
his wife sent to him.
S12 (18:30):
Have nothing to do with that just man. For I
have suffered many things today in a dream because of him.
S3 (18:42):
But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that
they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.
S6 (18:49):
Which of the two do you want me to release
to you?
S11 (18:53):
Barabbas.
S6 (18:55):
What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?
S13 (18:59):
Let him be crucified.
S6 (19:01):
Why? What evil has he done?
S3 (19:06):
But they cried out all the more.
S13 (19:11):
Let him be crucified.
S3 (19:12):
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all,
but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water
and washed his hands before the multitude.
S6 (19:21):
I am innocent of the blood of this just person.
You see to it.
S3 (19:29):
And all the people answered his blood.
S13 (19:31):
Be on us, be on us, and on our children.
S1 (19:37):
We're talking about the crucifixion of Jesus with the doctor,
Joe Bergeron, who is a practicing physician, but he's also
interested in the world of apologetics. And so he co-authored
an article with Doctor Gary Habermas for the Irish Theological Quarterly,
taking a look at what's known as the hallucination hypothesis.
If time allows, I want to get into that a
little bit. But he also authored a peer reviewed medical
(19:57):
journal article on Jesus's cause of death for the Journal
of Forensic and Legal Medicine. You can read much of
this in his new book, The Crucifixion of Jesus. A
medical doctor examines the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron,
let me go to the fact that you pointed out
how severe the bleeding the beating was under the Jewish authorities. Again,
they were they did not have the right of capital punishment,
(20:18):
meaning they could not take a life. They couldn't beat
a Roman citizen. So they had some restraints on what
they could do, so they could beat him severely. And
they did. And then you just talked about the Roman scourging,
which is this weapon of mutilation, exposing even internal organs.
It raises an interesting question from a medical vantage point,
which is after those two severe beatings, you wonder how
(20:41):
Jesus had the strength then to take his cross and
to walk to Calvary. We know he didn't do it
the whole way. This is where we have the character
who steps in Simeon and in Simon, and carries the
part of the cross. Before I get to that, just
from a medical vantage point. How do you think he
was able to even stand and walk even a short
distance with part of the cross?
S8 (21:02):
That's really hard to say, because he was beaten near
to death, and that the Roman philosopher Seneca said that
people would have many causes or excuses to die prior
to to mounting the cross. That was particularly true in
the case of Jesus. And again, the Roman soldiers were
particularly harsh with him because his charge was political insurrection
(21:27):
and the Romans had anti-Semitic tendencies anyway. But to say
that you're the king of that area, in defiance of Caesar,
would have heightened their ire and made the beating all
the more harsh the process of crucifixion would be that
the condemned criminal would be delivered to a crucifixion team.
The team would be led by the centurion and at
(21:50):
least four soldiers and the they would complete the scourging.
Then they would place the horizontal section of the cross,
called the Patibulum, on the back of the condemned, along
with a plaque called the Titulus Crucis, which named the
(22:11):
capital crimes for which they were being executed. With Jesus,
it said, the King of the Jews. Now the vertical
section of the cross was permanently placed in the ground.
Jesus was executed on what's called a Tau cross or
crux commissa, and the soldiers would march the condemned to
(22:32):
the naked, generally to the crucifixion site. Fasten the arms
to the patibulum the. The uh uh uh uh um, uh,
horizontal section and then fasten the hands with nails. Now,
if you take your ring finger and bend it back
as far as you can to touch the bottom of
the wrist crease, that if you drive a nail through
(22:55):
that spot, it will go through the wrist bones without
fracturing them, and place a stable fixation of the arm
against the wood. If you were to drive a nail
inside to the center of the palm, that would pull
out with about £100 of extraction force, and so it
would have been done through the wrist bones or, or
(23:16):
possibly just, uh, proximal or just above the wrist. And
that's there's a quirky medical mind that Doctor Pierre Barbet took, uh,
a dozen amputated hands and repeated that experiment. They all
came out the same. The nail went through the wrist
bones without fracturing them. Uh, it did macerate the nerves
(23:37):
that were passing through that area, which would be extraordinarily painful. Um, but, um,
but that's how the nails were placed. Uh, the condemned
would then be lifted by the soldiers and placed on
the vertical section of the cross with a mortise and
tenon coupling.
S1 (23:54):
Wow. Let me pick it up exactly at that point.
By the way, in the book, you have actually photos
of some of the x rays that Pierre Barbet did
with his experiments on hands and where a nail could
go without breaking any bones, which is, of course significant
because Scripture tells us no bones were broken. Absolutely fascinating book.
It's called The Crucifixion of Jesus back after this. Friends,
(24:27):
this is Janet Parshall, and I want to take a
moment to remind you that today's program is prerecorded so
our phone lines aren't open. But I sure do appreciate
your spending the hour with us. And thanks so much
and enjoy the rest of the program. Anyone can read
the news every day on in the market. We're committed
to telling the news as seen through the lens of Scripture.
(24:48):
As Christians, we must be informed about what's going on
in the world and respond appropriately. When you become a
partial partner, you ensure that we continue here on your station,
equipping the church to discuss current events, using the Bible
as our solid foundation. Why not become a partial partner today?
Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the
market with Janet Parshall.
S3 (25:12):
Now as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene,
Simon by name him they compelled to bear his cross.
And when they had come to a place called Golgotha,
that is to say, place of a skull, they gave
him sour wine, mingled with gall to drink. But when
(25:34):
he had tasted it he would not drink. Then they
crucified him and divided his garments, casting lots, that it
might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.
S14 (25:54):
They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing
they cast lots.
S3 (26:00):
Sitting down they kept watch over him there. And they
put up over his head the accusation written against him.
This is Jesus, the king of the Jews. Then two
robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and
another on the left. And those who passed by blasphemed him,
wagging their heads.
S10 (26:19):
You who destroy the.
S15 (26:21):
Temple and build it in three days, save yourself.
S16 (26:25):
If you are the Son of God, come down from
the cross.
S3 (26:29):
Likewise the chief priests, also mocking with the scribes and elders,
said he saved others.
S6 (26:37):
Himself he cannot save.
S9 (26:39):
If he is the King of Israel, let him now
come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
S10 (26:46):
He trusted in God. Let him deliver him now, if
he will have him. For he said, I am the
Son of God.
S3 (26:55):
Even the robbers who were crucified with him reviled him
with the same thing. Now, from the sixth hour until
the ninth hour, there was darkness over all the land.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a
(27:18):
loud voice.
S5 (27:20):
Hallo, lama sabachthani!
S3 (27:27):
That is my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Some of those who stood there when they heard that said.
S17 (27:35):
This man is calling for Elijah.
S3 (27:38):
Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled
it with sour wine, and put it on a reed
and offered it to him to drink.
S16 (27:46):
Let him alone. Let us see if Elijah will come
to save him.
S3 (27:51):
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice. And
yielded up his spirit.
S1 (28:03):
And that's what we are discussing, the crucifixion of Jesus.
We are talking with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who is offering
us a medical doctor's perspective on the death and resurrection
of Jesus. If you've missed the first half, I'm glad
to tell you that you can download the podcast so
you can hear everything that has been said up to
this point. Simply go to the website in the market
with Janet Parshall. Left hand side two words past programs.
(28:26):
Click on download the full hour and listen to this
program again and again, and share it with someone who's
a seeker, or a skeptic or a cynic, or doesn't
believe that this can be historically substantiated or does not
understand what Jesus did for us. That's what this is
all about. So, Doctor Bergeron, let me go to the
crucifixion itself. You pointed out that you thought that this
(28:48):
was more of a tau cross, which means more of
a T than the typical cross figure that we think about.
But you spend time talking about the feet. What happens
in a crucifixion, and you have some archaeological bones that
also discuss this as well?
S8 (29:03):
Yes, that's very interesting because, you know, the Romans used
crucifixion as their it was called the summa supplica, the
supreme punishment. And they used it for six centuries. Um, Josephus,
who was eyewitness of the war, the Roman war with
the Jews from A.D. 66 through 70, said that, um,
(29:28):
up to 500 people at a time were crucified. So
that's a lot of people. and during the Spartacus Rebellion
in 70 BC, the Romans crucified 6000 people on the
Appian Appian Road, the Roman highway 120km from Capua to Rome.
So they had an intense belief in capital punishment as
(29:50):
a deterrent. And it was used, you know, constantly over
that time, they would have crucified thousands, maybe hundreds of
thousands of people. But there are only two archaeological finds.
So and it's known that the reason for that is
that the victim would be left on the cross to
be eaten by scavenging animals. The victim could the the
(30:14):
friends and family could request the remains of the victim
for burial. And there have been two archaeological finds. One
was in Jerusalem, which was dated to the early part
of the first century, and the second one was found
in northern Italy and just reported in 2018. Both of
(30:36):
those finds show the nail going through the heel, the
calcaneus bone. And so, at least based on that archaeological evidence,
we believe it seems likely that that was how they
did it. And and if you think about it, it
would maybe be easier to drive a nail through the
heel than through the top of a foot when the
(30:59):
the victim is protesting. And incidentally, the the idea that
it was nailed, the feet were nailed to the front
of the cross. In our artistic imagination, there's no no
record to account for that. Um, and then what I
think is, is doubly fascinating is what's called the proto Evangelium,
which is in Genesis 315, where God speaks to Satan.
(31:23):
He speaks to the serpent, and he says, the offspring
of the woman is going to crush your head and
you're going to bruise his heel. So I think that
that was probably the way it was done. The find
in Jerusalem. The the heels were in a configuration that
the legs would have been parallel, rotated to the right,
(31:45):
and the nail driven through each of the calcaneus bones
with a a wood between the head of the nail
and the bone. The reason that we know that is
because one of the nails got bent and it couldn't,
couldn't be extracted from the bone and reused. Um, and
so what they had to do was amputate the foot
(32:06):
and then pry the nail off that way to get
it off the cross and to remove the body.
S1 (32:11):
So in this and by the way, you quote Seneca
as saying that there were all kinds of modalities of crucifixion,
sometimes upside down and various different ways, which I thought
was fascinating in and of itself. But now, especially from
your vantage point as a physician. So the cause of death,
first of all, Jesus cries out, talk to me about
(32:31):
dehydration on the cross. This. It seems to me, is
completely understandable. Not only is there a fulfillment of scripture
on this, but why would this have been something that
you would have witnessed in a crucifixion that you're talking
about being exposed to the elements? So dehydration, it seems
to me, would be a natural response to this.
S8 (32:49):
The most plausible explanation for Jesus death is traumatic hemorrhagic shock.
You'd asked me previously about why he couldn't walk to
the crucifixion site. That is because it looks like he
was starting to progress into shock at that time, and
the initial symptoms of shock would be being lightheaded, dizzy, palpitations,
feeling clammy, weak, those sorts of things. And that, uh,
(33:13):
precluded him from being able to walk to the crucifixion site.
But Jesus had extensive beating and blood loss. He would
have been deprived of, uh, fluids from the arrest onward.
And the thirst that occurs with shock and shock is
is a diminished blood flow to tissues and vital organs. Um,
(33:40):
and in Jesus case, the reason for that would be
blood loss. When that occurs, the brain itself is stimulated
by two mechanisms. There are pressure sensors and arteries called
baroreceptors that would stimulate the area of the brain that's
responsible for thirst. And there's a mechanism of the, uh,
in the kidneys that would do the same thing. The
(34:01):
angiotensin system would also stimulate the brain. So you have
two mechanisms that are directly stimulating the brain. That's different
than being thirsty like you and I get. This is
something that that the brain is being stimulated in a
significant way, to the point that people that are succumbing
to shock, they would have such a maddening type of
(34:22):
thirst that they would have hallucinations and of water and
those types of things. So when Jesus said, I thirst,
he was. It was probably a scream.
S1 (34:32):
Now the certainty of death. You write about this as well,
and you point out that the discipline within the Roman
legions was brutal, if not inhumane, and that if you
nodded off, if you were assigned to watch for crucifixion,
if you nodded off or fell asleep, you, as the soldier,
could have been beaten to death. So it was imperative
that the task be completed. Talk to me about this.
S8 (34:53):
Yes. When we have a hint from that in acts
chapter 15, where the Philippian jailer was going to fall
on his sword when he thought Paul and Silas had
had escaped, but for a crucifixion team to allow a
capital criminal to escape crucifixion would have meant their death.
And so they were not going to release a body,
and again, they would stay. The bodies would be left
(35:15):
on the cross. Now, you know, in the Passover, they
wanted the bodies to be taken down. And as I said,
the body could be requested. But there there is literary
evidence to suggest that a body would not be released
unless a fatal stab wound was given to the victim
(35:35):
and death verified for the authorities. Pilate himself was surprised
that Jesus had died so rapidly, but he did release
the body to Joseph of Arimathea.
S1 (35:48):
And that's exactly where I want to pick this up
when we come back. The book is called The Crucifixion
of Jesus. A medical doctor examines the death and resurrection
of Jesus. It's an absolutely fascinating read. It's a sober
read when you realize that, well, by his stripes we
are healed. And that puts that into a much deeper perspective.
Let's take a break back after this.
S3 (36:33):
Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the
week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a
great earthquake. For an angel of the Lord descended from heaven,
and came and rolled back the stone from the door
(36:55):
and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and
his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook
for fear of him, and became like dead men. But
the angel answered and said to the women.
S18 (37:10):
Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek
Jesus who was crucified. He is not here. For he
is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where
the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples
that he is risen from the dead, and indeed he
is going before you into Galilee. There you will see him. Behold,
(37:36):
I have told you.
S3 (37:40):
So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear
and great joy, and ran to bring his disciples word.
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus
met them.
S5 (37:51):
Rejoice!
S3 (37:52):
So they came and held him by the feet and
worshipped him.
S5 (37:57):
Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brethren to
go to Galilee, and there they will see me.
S3 (38:07):
Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard
came into the city and reported to the chief priests
all the things that had happened. When they had assembled
with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large
sum of money to the soldiers.
S9 (38:23):
Tell them his disciples came at night and stole him
away while we slept. And if this comes to the
governor's ears, we will appease him and make you secure.
S3 (38:33):
So they took the money and did as they were instructed.
And this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until
this day. Then the 11 disciples went away into Galilee,
to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When
(38:58):
they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. And
Jesus came and spoke to them.
S5 (39:06):
All authority has been given to me in heaven and
on earth. Go therefore, and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the father, and of
the son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to
observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo,
(39:31):
I am with you always, even to the end of
the age.
S3 (39:35):
Amen.
S1 (39:38):
That is the best news you will hear all day long.
We are talking with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who's a practicing physician,
and he has a great interest into the crucifixion of
Jesus Christ. Apologetics. Apologetics generally, but in particular this topic
of the crucifixion of Jesus. He's written a book to
that end, it is called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A
medical doctor examines the death and resurrection of Christ. And
(40:01):
for the record, there is oh so much more in
this book than I can possibly cover. So I hope
I'm piquing your curiosity so that you'll want to pursue
and get a copy yourself. So, Doctor Bergeron, let me
go back, because I do want to get into the
hallucination hypothesis right now. But if you look at the
cause of death, you say that it is predominantly understood
(40:22):
that it would not have been suffocation difficult, as you
point out, to have a conversation with thieves when you're suffocating,
but rather it would be trauma that would have been
the result of this cardiac and respiratory arrest due to
trauma shock. All of this as a result of the crucifixion.
That's significant because doesn't that begin to auger out if
(40:43):
you understand the certainty of death, the cause of death?
Doesn't that speak into the vacuous nature of some of
these theories, the swoon theory or the hallucination hypothesis? Talk
to me about this.
S8 (40:55):
Well, the swoon theory is simply not possible based on
the things we've already discussed in terms of Roman military authority.
And people have asked me, has anyone ever survived a crucifixion?
And the answer is there was one person. And Josephus,
who was a Jewish historian and defected and became a
(41:15):
Roman citizen. And as I said, he was an eyewitness
of the Roman War between 66 and 74 A.D. B,
he saw three of his friends being crucified, and he
quickly was able to get a stay of execution for
his friends. They were taken down. Two of them died anyway,
and one of them nursed back to health. And that's
(41:39):
the only. And I've studied everything I can find. That's
the only record of anyone ever surviving. And for the
reason that I said they were going to stay on
the cross until they died, they were verified dead by
the Roman team or the team themselves were going to die,
and then their bodies were left there to be eaten
by animals for intimidation. Um, so when when shock progresses
(42:01):
to a certain point, even in those people who were
taken off the cross, then it becomes unrecoverable and they're
going to die anyway. So, uh, and and Jesus told it,
I think Jesus told us his cause of death. He
he in Matthew chapter 26, he said he took the
(42:21):
cup and he said, this is my blood of the
new covenant that is poured out for the remission of sins.
And I, to me and to my medical mind, he
was making a medical statement, and he was telling us
that his cause of death was exsanguination or loss of blood.
Traumatic hemorrhagic shock. And he also told us why he
(42:41):
was doing it. He was inaugurating a new covenant that
God had foretold in Jeremiah 31, where he would forgive
his people, write the laws of God in their hearts,
forgive their sins, and remember them no more. So he
told us why he was doing it, and he told us,
in my view, how he was going to die. That's
by traumatic hemorrhagic shock. Um, but to to get to
(43:06):
the swoon theory, uh, you know, uh, or to hallucinations, rather.
I collected everything I could find on hallucination hypotheses. And
what I found was that it was a collection of
writings by theological, theological scholars or critical scholars. And they
(43:28):
would just write things and say that the disciples hallucinated,
and then they would stop and not provide any further
discussion beyond that. Um, and they may have been brilliant theologians,
but now they had ventured into a medical discussion which
they were not qualified to do, and expose them to
(43:48):
error in their opinions.
S1 (43:50):
Well, Doctor Bergeron, I could talk two more hours with
you on this. Let me use this instead as an
encouragement to my listeners, because you you have this beautiful
graph about explanations for Jesus's resurrections. And it leads to
one conclusion. Up from the grave he arose. Brilliant book.
I thank you for your passion on this topic. I
thank you for sharing it with the rest of us.
(44:12):
The crucified, the crucifixion of Jesus. Check it out at
In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.