April 30, 2025 • 44 mins
Life is different from it was on your wedding day years ago. You are different, your spouse is different, and so is your marriage. In the middle and later decades of life, we all face situations we didn’t think about as young married couples, such as maintaining relationships with adult children, planning for retirement, navigating health struggles, preventing marital monotony, and investing time into the lives of our grandchildren. Our guest, Pastor Larry McCall, will encourage us to remember that these new challenges can be blessings and are all wonderful opportunities to grow in your care for one another as you reflect the love of Christ.
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S1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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(00:40):
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(01:22):
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please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:38):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S6 (01:44):
A divorce tax is not.
S1 (02:00):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Who doesn't want to talk about marriage I certainly do.
Tell me about your marriage. Are you newlywed? Are you
about to be married? Or are you in the midst
of what we call a seasoned marriage? Well, if you're
in that last category, this program is custom designed for you,
and there are a lot of us in that area.
So we're going to talk about it with Doctor Larry McCall,
(02:21):
who serves as the director of Walking Like Jesus Ministries.
He served as the lead pastor at Christ Covenant Church
of Winona Lake, Indiana, for over 30 years, followed by
more than ten years on the pastoral staff. He's a
grad of Grace College. Grace Theological Seminary has a doctorate
of ministry from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He's written numerous
articles for publications. He's the author of Walking Like Jesus Did,
(02:44):
Loving Your Wife as Christ Loves the Church, Grandparenting with grace,
and the one we're talking about today, a seasoned marriage.
And Larry, I have to tell you, here's where your
bio and mine intersect. Just like you. I married my
high school sweetheart, just like you. You're about to celebrate.
If you haven't just crossed that threshold your 50th year.
I've got a few more years beyond that point. Something
(03:06):
about marrying your high school sweetheart. My husband likes to say,
when God made us, he split us from the same atom.
And maybe it's because we were teenagers together. And now
we've got crow's feet and little gray at the temples.
And there's just something about growing old together. Like the
poet says, the best is yet to come. I love
your passion for this particular topic. I want to make
sure our friends listening all across the country are on
(03:27):
the same page. However, when you say a seasoned marriage,
we're not talking about oregano. Tell me what you mean
by a seasoned marriage.
S7 (03:34):
Yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, we're talking about people that, um.
It doesn't necessarily mean you've been married a whole lot
of years. It could be you were widowed or divorced
and remarried. But the point is that you are in
your seasoned years. So if you have probably crossed the
halfway point in life, you're in your seasoned years. And
if you're married, that's who we're talking about.
S1 (03:56):
So it isn't just the marriage aspect. I want to
make sure I understand this. It's your walk in life
individually that what you deal with at 40 is not
necessarily the same sort of challenges you face when you're 24.
Do I have that right?
S7 (04:08):
You have that right.
S1 (04:10):
And so as a result of that, the dynamic in
the marriage changes. Correct?
S7 (04:14):
Yes. And the issues that come up in marriage change.
S1 (04:17):
Yeah. Exactly right. So let me just from the 35,000
foot perspective. And by the way, your book is fabulous.
The foreword written by our mutual friend Bob Lepine. It's
just a wonderful, wonderful book, and I thank you for that.
S7 (04:28):
But thank you, Janet.
S1 (04:29):
If you're looking at at life in general, you know,
we've got these. You know, the Bible talks about the
different kinds of love. C.S. Lewis wrote the book The
Four Faces of Love. When we talk about the way
love changes, I'll bet the way you felt toward your
precious high school sweetheart, um, is always there. But it's
not the same as getting butterflies when she walked in
the room, necessarily, when you were in high school then,
(04:51):
where you are in the relationship now and some people
listening and going, well, no, I want it always like that.
Is it a bad thing that love changes over time?
S7 (04:59):
I don't think so, Janet. I think it deepens. It broadens.
In some ways it's more precious. And I'm not the
only older person. That said, I think I love my
spouse more now than I did the day I said
I do. It's a different kind of love. It's a
sweet love, though.
S1 (05:13):
Oh, and it's a friendship, is it not?
S7 (05:16):
It is. Yeah. I'm so glad I'm walking life with
my wife.
S1 (05:21):
Yeah. And I think when we abandoned the idea that
it isn't just this idea of companionship, but it really is.
I often refer to my husband as my best friend.
We'll be talking and I'll say, and I can share
this with you as my best friend, because he has
a multitude of things. But our spouse should be, particularly
when we're at this stage of life, shouldn't they be
our best friend as well?
S7 (05:40):
Yes, I think our best friend and I think about
it too. As a believer, she's my strongest accountability partner.
I'm doing life with her. She knows all about me.
S1 (05:50):
And there. So at that end, by the way, does
that not create a kind of intimacy in a relationship?
Because I don't know about you, Larry, but there's nobody
else in the world that knows me like my husband
or knows things about me like my husband.
S7 (06:02):
And the amazing thing is, Janet, they still love us.
S1 (06:05):
Yeah. Exactly right. That's a wonderful thought. Well, you talk
about three things in the beginning of the book that
are all beginning with the letter R reflecting, responding, and releasing.
Walk me through that.
S7 (06:20):
Yeah. Well, when you think about, um, the different stages
of life, especially once we've crossed the half point, um,
life changes. There's a lot of changes that come just
in the Lord's normal providence, and we have to respond
to those. And, um, and then we begin to release
things as you think about getting older. And I'll soon
(06:40):
be 71. In our culture, usually age is associated with
some kind of loss. We release certain things. We release
our youthful vigor. We release our youthful looks. We release
maybe our children into adult life. We release our old
jobs and retire from them. So there's all of that.
(07:01):
But all the while we are clinging on to Christ,
focusing on.
S1 (07:06):
Him. Yeah. Exactly right. So to that end, excuse me
for clearing my throat. To that end, you say declaratively
that marriage is for Christ. What do you mean by that?
S7 (07:17):
Yeah, well, I don't know. I think we were married
about 20 years, and I had been a pastor for
a lot of those 20 years. I don't think I
realized the primary purpose of marriage. That's humbling to admit. But, um,
I guess I, like a lot of young people, went
into marriage thinking marriage is for me. Um, this young
(07:37):
lady named Nadine, she sure makes me happy. I would
like to marry her and give her the opportunity of
making me happy for the rest of her life, And
I didn't say those words, Deanna. But, you know, I
think that was what was in my heart. It's about me.
It's about my happiness. But then realizing in Ephesians 532
when Paul's talking about marriage there in that context, he says,
(07:59):
But I'm speaking of Christ in the church. And God's
plan all along, from before the foundation of the world
was he wanted this living re-enactment of the greatest love
story ever, the love that Christ has for his bride,
the church and marriage is that living re-enactment. And so
for my wife and I to go through life, whether
it be married five years or 50 years, realizing we're
(08:22):
on mission, and it's a glorious mission that together we're
reflecting Christ's love for his bride. So it's for him.
And that ups the ante, as we say, you know,
we think, well, we really need to work on our
marriage because of the mission we're on.
S1 (08:36):
Yeah, Larry, you've touched on something so profound, something that's
so anti-secular, if I can put it that way. Something
that the world never talks about. They're too interested in
having a say yes to the dress and what the
colour of the bridesmaids dresses are, and whether or not
you're going to have a location honeymoon. But if it's
about Christ. Going back to that mystery you referred to
(08:57):
in Ephesians five, there's a profundity here. I know the
world doesn't get it, and sometimes the church ignores it.
So when we come back, can we dig a little
deeper to that? Because first principles are very important. If
we understood that first marriage is for Christ, from that
would flow a myriad of choices in the way in
which we interact with our spouse. That might be different
(09:17):
if we stopped and thought, this is the mystery, it
is for Christ first. Doctor Larry McCall is with us.
He's got a brand new book out called A Seasoned
Marriage Living the Gospel in the Middle Years and Beyond,
back after this. Bible literacy is declining even among Christians.
It's time for us to cultivate Bible reading habits that
(09:39):
will transform our faith. That's why I've chosen The Jesus
Book as this month's truth tool. Discover how to apply
Scripture to our everyday lives and to know its power.
As for your copy of the Jesus Book, when you
give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go online to
in the market with Janet parshall.org. We're talking with Doctor
(10:03):
Larry McCall, who's the director of Walking Like Jesus Ministries,
and about his brand new book. It's called A Seasoned
Marriage Living the Gospel in the Middle Years and beyond. Great.
I think important conversation. And you just touched on, I think,
a seminal thought that really needs to be fleshed out
a little bit because it's so profound. I love it.
In fact, I can hear the voice of the male
(10:24):
singer in The Messiah. Behold, I show you a mystery.
Write the words right out of Ephesians five that this
marriage union that God institutes, defines and implements in a
place of perfection. Larry. Three institutions family, government, church in
that order, but the only one made in a place
of perfection was the family. Gives us a big hint
about how dear, precious this is to the heart of God.
(10:46):
And so you say in the book, rightfully so, that
marriage is first for Christ. Now the world doesn't get that.
The church needs to get that. And then yet the
church at the same time goes, I fall so short
of who Christ is, how can I ever have a
marriage that is, quote, successful when I can't be like
Christ 24 over seven? Only my Savior can. So walk
(11:07):
us through that.
S7 (11:08):
Um, well, thanks for asking, Janet. Yeah, marriage is for Christ,
and I agree, not only the world doesn't get it,
but a lot of times as a church, we've ignored
this issue, this whole framework for marriage. And we are naturally, sinfully,
I should say, self-centered. And in our culture, marriages. Uh,
in that context, marriage is, for me, marriages for my happiness.
(11:31):
And I've had a few people push back on me
and say, well, you're being a little hard. And I say, well,
you know, having been a pastor for over 40 years,
if I have to, or my fellow pastors get involved
in a marriage that's breaking up and saying, why are
you pursuing divorce? The most common answer is, I'm just
not happy anymore. And it's all about me. It's all
(11:54):
about my happiness. And marriage does bring joy. I'm not
on any anti happiness campaign, but marriage is fundamentally a
living picture, a living reenactment of the greatest love story ever.
It's a picture of Christ and His love for his bride.
That was God's intention all along, and we see hints
of it, uh, all through the Old Testament, with Israel
(12:17):
being depicted as a bride and unfaithful bride, but a bride. Um,
Isaiah 62. There's these wonderful passages about how God sees
his people, but then New Testament, it's like he pulls
back the curtains and he says, look, this was my
plan all along. I wanted your marriage to be missional.
I wanted your marriage to depict the love that Christ
(12:38):
has for his bride. And if we see that, it
begins to shape everything, and even in that Ephesians five passage.
You know, husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved
the church and gave himself up for wives. Submit to
your husbands as to the Lord, and you can keep
on going through that whole section. Parent. Child. Relationships. Employee. Employer.
(13:01):
They're all Christ centered. They're all Christ centered. That as Christians,
we live in the power of the gospel. We live
in the presence of the gospel. We live out the
gospel in our relationships. And it's actually a glorious thing
to pursue.
S1 (13:16):
Yes. Amen to that. I was thinking also, it's sort
of like the gospel impact first in Jerusalem, then Judea,
then Samaria, then the innermost parts of the world. If
I start with the idea, if my husband and I
start with the idea that marriage is for Christ, it's
going to be, first of all, a witness to each other.
It has to be a witness to the children observing us.
It has to be a witness to the neighbors and
(13:38):
friends who observe our marriage. It has to be a
witness to a world that when Christ is the center
of your marriage, there isn't even a conversation about divorce
or breaking up, or I'm not happy anymore because it's
a me centric response. I mean, it's so I love
the idea that as believers so often we are by
design anti-cultural not to be obnoxious or obstructionist, but because
(13:58):
we really do live a different way. And I love
the idea that the scriptures call us to really have
this idea of loving our spouse the way we're supposed to.
Now what happens? And let me talk to your pastor's
heart on this, because that's the goal. And you always
want to say, here's the bar. This is what we're
trying to obtain to now you're going to miss the
bar sometimes because all have sinned and come short of
(14:19):
the glory of God, because we're still having this Pauline
war between flesh and spirit. So when I miss the mark,
and a lot of people listening might have had that
moment today, they go, well, that's it, I've blown it.
It's never going to happen again. Talk to me about this. Wash, rinse,
spin and dry cycle that we get because I think
it's important for us.
S7 (14:38):
Yes. Yeah. The gospel teaches us grace. Um, and when
we think about that, I mean, sometimes I think we
forget God's not only gives us this calling, but he
gives us everything we need to fulfill that calling. And
we often lose sight of that and fail. And yet,
the gospel is that he forgives us. And and to
find that with joy and gratitude that he's a forgiving God.
(15:00):
And it moves us to want to please him even more. Um,
but yeah, he's not an, um, a celestial ogre with
a club hanging over our heads. He's our loving Heavenly
Father who wants us. And I think about this, and
I think about how the Holy Spirit wants Christ to
be honored in our lives. Uh, second Corinthians 318 and
(15:20):
he wants Christ to be honored in our marriages. And
rather than feeling defeated, I've blown it. There's no hope.
We lean in and we say, Holy Spirit, come and
show me Christ. Holy spirit, come and have Christ reflected
more clearly, clearly in my life, in our marriage. And
it's as if I'm speaking for the Holy Spirit here.
(15:41):
That's kind of dangerous, isn't it? But it's as if
the Holy Spirit would say, thank you for asking. That's
exactly what I want in your marriage. There's great hope there.
There's great strength there that we lean into the help
of the spirit, applying the scriptures in our marriages so
that we can get up, dust ourselves off. Or if
you said wash, rinse, recycle, whatever that we lean into
(16:02):
that and our marriages continue to grow and Lord willing,
over time becomes sweeter, more clear reflections of Christ and
His love for his bride.
S1 (16:11):
So just one sentence or two, if you would, Larry,
because we talked about marriage as Christ. But then what
you don't say is marriage is me. The next step
that you write about in a seasoned marriage is marriage
is our spouse. Now that to me, that's a perfectly
logical next step. Um, for others I might not see
necessarily how that is a continuum. Explain that to us.
S7 (16:31):
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad to talk about that, Mary.
Just for Christ first. Secondly, Mary, just for my spouse.
And I think of what Paul said about sexual intimacy
in marriage in first Corinthians seven, where he said the
husband's body doesn't belong to himself, it belongs to his wife.
The wife's body doesn't belong to herself, belongs to her husband.
That there's a voluntary glad reciprocity there, a giving of oneself.
(16:56):
And that pattern, even in intimacy, is reflected in all
other dynamics of marriage that I am for you by
God's grace.
S5 (17:04):
Wow.
S1 (17:05):
What a wonderful conversation and what a great thing to
think about. Maybe you've had a busy day. Maybe you're
going home and you had a fight. You left this
morning and it was anything but a joyous place to
return to. Maybe God is stirring your heart a little bit.
So before you pull into the driveway, things are going
to be different tonight, I hope so. I want you
to be encouraged. Doctor Larry McCall is our guest director
of Walking Like Jesus Ministries and the author of A
(17:27):
Seasoned Marriage, the book we're talking about. More after this.
Doctor Larry McCall has a brand new book out. It's
called A Seasoned Marriage Living the Gospel in the Middle
Years and Beyond. Larry, of course, is the director of
Walking Like Jesus Ministries. Now, there's a lot in this book,
(17:50):
and even with the irreplaceable gift of one hour of
Larry's time, I can't cover it all. But that's okay.
I'm not doing a fireside chat or a book report.
I want you to stir your heart with this conversation.
I want you to start thinking more critically and biblically
on these topics as well. And then I want you
to get a copy of the book and do some
deep diving. The subtitle is Living the Gospel in the
Middle Years and Beyond, and that's where I want to
(18:12):
go next, Larry, because for most people who are in
those middle years of their marriage, in that season marriage,
their children are starting to grow up. They're starting to
leave the nest. They're starting to leave home. I have
said it before, I will say it again give me
potty training any day of the week. It is parenting
the adult children that keep me up at night. So
(18:33):
talk to me about trying to make that change. You
preceded this conversation about launching our kids with a conversation
about really having to recognize the change is coming, and
knowing something about ourselves and trusting God in the midst
of change because it is inevitable, but nobody likes it.
Even a baby cries when it gets changed, right? So
change is one of those things we struggle with. But kids,
I think, is a perfect, concrete example of this. So
(18:55):
it's one thing to say, well, they're under our roof,
they're under our wing, we're going to raise them, but
now they're going their own way, and they're going to
make decisions that we can't stop them from doing. Because
as our friend Doctor Gary Chapman says, you're an adult.
You'll make the right decision. And the prodigal dad stayed
put even though his son was dining with pigs. So
walk me through this idea of launching our kids into
(19:16):
adult life, because this can put stress on a marriage.
S7 (19:19):
Yes. In fact, Janet, it does put a lot of
stress on a lot of marriages, and, uh, we didn't
experience a whole lot of stress on our marriage. When
I left home, they all left in a good fashion.
But I still remember our different responses when our last
one got married. Uh, my wife said, oh, Larry, now
it's just us. And I said, oh no, Gladys, now
(19:42):
it's just us. And it's all in the inflection. Uh.
S1 (19:46):
Yes, sir.
S7 (19:49):
Yeah, we were looking at it a little bit differently,
but it is hard. I think launching kids is difficult
on a couple of levels. I think, uh, for one,
our individual identity as a Christian man, a Christian woman.
And I see this particularly with mothers, even more so
with men. It can happen in both, but I see
it more often with women who have found their identity
(20:09):
in being mom. And now the kids are all gone.
So that's one issue that has to be bathed in prayer, uh,
saturated in the gospel. How does she transition, finding her
identity in Christ and not just being raising the kid's mother.
But I think also there can be real stress on
the marriage relationship, and I think that's understandable on several levels.
(20:31):
One is especially if a couple has had multiple children
that are spread out a little bit, they might have
spent 25 or 30 years raising those kids. And now
the kids are gone, and they've spent so many years
focusing on those kids that it's quite possible, maybe even probable,
that they've neglected working on their marriage. And so now
(20:53):
the empty nest is, uh, it's like pulling off the
covers and like, who? Who is this? Who is this
person that I'm married to? And and it's almost like
the need to start fresh. Uh, where are we in
our marriage? So that's a real challenge to.
S1 (21:08):
Can I linger here, Larry? Can I? Because I love
your pastor's heart on this. So, so many questions. I
want to ask you about this, because I think it
really resonates with a lot of people listening to us
right now. So if you've had what some of my
friends have called a child centered marriage, and then they're gone.
And now it's like you look in the mirror and go,
and you are, you know, and you look at your
husband and say, I need a name tag. Hello, my
name is fill in the blank. And they realize, uh oh,
(21:31):
we were so child focused that we really didn't take
the time to develop each other's best interests into their lives,
to serve them the way Christ wants us to serve them.
Where do you start, then? Because I. We serve a
God who gives us fresh starts. And his tender mercies
are renewed every single morning. So if that's where someone
finds themselves today, they shouldn't flee with fear. And you
(21:53):
write a lot about how we avoid fear when change
in our lives. How does one then start to rediscover
this person? They said I do to and they said,
and we're going to live happily ever after.
S7 (22:05):
Yeah, I think it has to start, obviously in the heart. Um,
and in the book I refer to this as marital monotony.
And I think some couples get there and the kids
are gone and they look at each other and they
don't feel close anymore. And they think, well, that's just
the way it's going to be. And so they try
to find a comfortable distance from one another where they're
(22:26):
not really divorced, but they're not really close relationally. The
relationship's not marked by love and friendship. Um, it's just
kind of a working relationship. Kind of, uh, coworkers more
than husband and wife. But I think whichever one and hopefully,
you know, it's not just the woman here, but the
man as well, have a desire to be close and
(22:46):
to talk to one another and say, you know, as
I look at our relationship, I realize we've drifted apart.
And a time of confession, um, you know, and an
expression of love to be close to you again. Is
that your desire as well? And I wonder what it
would take to do that. And lots of time talking
and listening. And, um, that's been one of my challenges
(23:07):
over the years, is being a good listener, listening to
my wife's heart. You know what's really going on with her?
And I think that, uh, even a confession of I've
been negligent as a husband, or I've been negligent as
a wife, would you forgive me? And the humility of
the heart. The good news is it says in the
Bible several places God opposes the proud. Grace to the humble.
(23:30):
So to humble ourselves and go before the Lord, asking
his forgiveness, asking our spouse's forgiveness, and then begin to
date again, begin to do things together. And it could
be simple things. My wife and I do more grocery
shopping together in this season than we have since we
were newlyweds.
S1 (23:47):
Oh, I can relate.
S7 (23:48):
Yeah, and that's good. It gives us something to do together.
We walk together. I mean, we look for things to
do together.
S1 (23:54):
Yeah. Intentionality there really does have to be that intentionality.
The book is wonderful. It is called A Seasoned Marriage,
and the subtitle is Living the Gospel in the Midlife Years,
Middle Years and Beyond. It is wonderful. It is biblical.
First lesson always, as you would expect from Doctor Larry McCall.
But it is also very, very practical. And at the end,
all kinds of questions that make you sift and weigh
(24:16):
and eventually own and apply what you've just read through
Larry's writing and through his wisdom back after this. We
(24:39):
live in complicated times and in the market. We're helping
you interpret complex cultural issues through the lens of Scripture.
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(25:00):
to in the market with Janet Parshall. We're having a
wonderful conversation with Doctor Larry McCall regarding his brand new
book called A Seasoned Marriage Living the gospel in the
middle years and beyond. As I said, and I'll repeat myself,
very biblical, but likewise very pragmatic. And he covers a
lot of the issues that marriages in those middle years
(25:21):
have to contend with. Larry, of course, is the director
of Walking Like Jesus Ministries. He's written several books, all
of which I can and will happily recommend. So let
me just tackle some of these issues like you do, Larry,
in the book, which I thought was tremendous. And you
go and I will point out to my friends that
you go much deeper on every one of these topics
in the book, but I want to do kind of
a flyover so that people will understand that. Again, it
(25:43):
is biblical, but it's also pragmatic. So talk to me
about what happens when you step into the age of
aging parents. You know, it's one of those I don't
want to talk about it. If I ignore it, the
issue will go away. But the potential is there that
there would be for elderly people for whom decisions have
to be made about their care and well-being. Where does
the couple start with something like that?
S7 (26:06):
Yeah, sometimes it happens rather suddenly. Um, couple in their 40s, 50s, 60s,
possibly even the early 70s, um, have elderly parents and
mom or dad maybe had a stroke. And this couple
is now thrust into how do we care for mom?
How do we care for dad? For others, it's more gradual.
They see their aging parents gradually declining, realizing that they
(26:28):
help that mom or dad or both of them need
is increasing, uh, more areas, uh, more complex issues. And
so I think to remember God's calling on our life.
I say in the book, did you ever notice that
that commandment honor your father and mother doesn't have an
age limit? Mhm. Um, that wasn't just a throw in
(26:49):
command for the kids of Israel. Uh, that's true in
all of life. And Gladion and I had the privilege
of helping to care for her mother before she passed. Uh,
or other parents. Excuse me. All died rather suddenly and
didn't require that. But it was a good lesson of
knowing how as a couple we could serve an aging parent,
(27:12):
while at the same time not neglecting our marriage. And
it was a challenge. But, uh. We look back with
fondness over those months and years, we helped care for
my dear mother in law. But, um, yeah, I think
there's obviously the focus on the parent themselves. We need
to treat them with honor, with respect, with love, and
(27:32):
and not with rudeness. Treating them like an aged child. Uh,
they're an adult. They're an image bearer of God, uh,
our parents. And to treat them that way. But as
a couple thinking, how can we do this together? How
can we be a ministry team in caring for mom,
caring for dad. And and I think I've seen situations
where the the, the lady, the mother, the excuse me, the, um,
(27:56):
the wife in a situation throws herself into that ministry.
And the husband just kind of, you know, stays home
and eats peanut butter sandwiches and watches sports on TV
or something, you know? Um, but to be engaged as
a couple and, um. Yeah. And to look for ways
we can each contribute to the care of that aging parent.
A way that would honor God and honor that parent.
S1 (28:17):
So perfectly stated. And when you were talking, I was
thinking over and over and over again, go back to
the first principle marriage is for Christ. So I loved
everything you said had a ministerial aspect to it. Um,
it almost goes without saying, but I want to state
the obvious here. As a husband and wife, is it
imperative that you spend time together discussing what each can contribute,
(28:40):
what you're willing to do, what your overall plan is?
You know God will give the direction, but as a
husband and wife, you want to make that plan and
then commit it to prayer so that you can commit
to the ministry of taking care of this aged parent
exactly as you've planned and prayed for.
S7 (28:56):
That's a wonderful way to say it. Janet and I
agree entirely with that. That, um, it's not just the
blood child caring for that parent, But we are a team.
We are one as husband and wife and we want
to carry for mom. We want to carry for dad,
whether it's our biological parent or our in-law parent, and
to pray over that together, talk about it. And if
you have siblings, adult siblings, it could also be involved
(29:19):
to be in person or zoom calls where you talk
about how are we going to care for mom, how
are we going to care for dad? But, um, I
think it's a challenge. And you know what, Janet? There
are couples out there right now that are not only
caring for an elderly parent, but they still have their
own kids in the house and the sandwich generation, where
they're caring for generations behind and generations ahead. And that's
(29:43):
a special challenge. And for the marriage, it will be
a strain on the marriage. But to not let it
be disastrously straining on marriage takes intentionality, takes leaning into
God's grace, open conversation, uh, sacrificial love for one another,
as well as for the generations before and after. Uh,
it can be a very busy season of life, but
(30:03):
God's grace is sufficient.
S1 (30:06):
Amen. You know our similar situation, Larry, to you? Um,
we had that experience as well. We took in our dad.
And I'm so very, very grateful because in the end,
these were some of the sweetest times I had with
him before he stepped into eternity. And if this is
done right, this has the potential. Yes, there are all
kinds of strains that are realities that could come into play.
(30:27):
But could you say, particularly in your circumstance, that it
also could be a very fruitful season in your marriage
as well?
S7 (30:34):
Yes, I think it can be. And I think, uh,
you know, in our case, it was my mother in law.
And I think as my wife saw me love her mother. Well,
and I think it warmed her heart to see that I,
I miss my mother in law. I mean, the jokes
about mothers in law, sons in law not getting along.
That wasn't our case. Uh, I loved my mother, I
(30:54):
miss her. I'm getting a little teary here. Just talking
about her. She just died a couple years ago, but, um.
But I think it's bonding to the couple. The married couple,
when they see my spouse, cares for my parents. I
love my parents. My husband, my wife cares for my parents,
and we're in this together. We are serving together, using
our different gifts, different abilities, different time availability. But we're
(31:16):
doing this together as a couple. And I saw the
same thing with my wife's siblings and their spouses, not
just for me, but I saw she had two siblings.
I saw all three couples become as couples and it
was bonding even for a family. Now, sadly, some some
families are more divided. Uh, it actually helped unite us.
S1 (31:37):
Yes, yes. Wow. And again, so much more in the
book on this, but in deference to time. So let
me flip the spectrum from the aging parent to becoming grandparents.
Now again, we've got the world teaching us theology on
this and creating all kinds of expectations. And so here
this can be a blessing or it can be a
burden if you're not going to Christ first on all
of this. So give me some sagely wisdom on what
(32:00):
our approach should be. You know, I love to hear
grandparents say, I have one job in life, and that's
to spoil my children. Craig and I have gotten to
the point where we say we have one job in
life when it comes to our grandchildren, and that's to
build character. And I think that that has to be,
you know, yes, I'd love to spoil them and I'm
glad I can also. I remember Chuck Swindoll saying, I
love him, but I love to see the tail lights
when they pull out of the driveway, you know? So
(32:23):
there there has to be this balanced approach. Again, I
don't want to be child centric with our own children.
And now repeat it all over again with the grandchildren.
Give us some wisdom on this change in a seasoned
marriage and how we should approach it.
S7 (32:35):
Yeah, thanks for asking. You know, a neat story. Just
before I get on the air here I was with
three of our grandkids, 17, 15 and ten. And a
week ago, the 15 year old was talking to me
here at her home. And she said, you know, Papa,
I am so thankful for grandparents that are involved in
my life, not just coming to my sports events and
(32:57):
my musical events. But you're pouring into me spiritually. And
I was just deeply moved with gratitude. And here's a
15 year old gal who's recognizing that this isn't normal.
She says her friends don't have that. And I think
you're right, Janet. I think in our culture, the Gladion
and I do a lot of speaking on Grandparenting. One
of my books is called Grandparenting with Grace. So I
(33:19):
probably do 8 to 10 conferences a year on Grandparenting,
and I often ask grandparents as an intro, um, you know,
what is the best parenting? And you can guess, most
people say spoil the grandkids and send them home. Exactly.
And I try to be polite, but it's not funny anymore.
I mean, who wants spoiled kids? It doesn't do them
(33:42):
any favor. It doesn't do the parents any favor, and
it doesn't. Please, God. Um, what is our calling? Grandparents
are missional, just like Mary. Just missional, says Grandparenting. Psalm
78 says one generation shall tell another generation about the greatness,
the grace of God. And then you drop down to
verse seven. It says so that they would put their
hope in God. And we can't give our grandkids faith,
(34:04):
but we sure can talk to them about the glory,
glorious grace of God in a way that makes them
want to lean in and say, oh, tell me more, Papa.
Tell me more, grandma. And, um, yeah, our mission is
to be very intentional. Yes. To have fun with the grandkids. Sure. Um,
you know, to sit around and talk about their grades
(34:25):
and school and sports and music. Yes. But it's to
talk to them about Christ, to show them Christ. And, um,
you know, I want my grandkids to grow up remembering,
you know, that their grandparents, um, poured the gospel into
them with a sweet flavor.
S1 (34:44):
Yeah. I love that so much. Um, and I'm thinking
I like what Jim Dobson said. In the end, he
said values are much more caught than they are taught
to our grandchildren. Not look to us even if it's
not articulated and long to see authentic Christianity not being
lectured at, but to see how that relationship with the
living Savior affects how we speak, how we live, how
(35:06):
we act, our relationship with our spouse, our relationship with
our adult children, our even our relationship with them. In
other words, there's very fertile fields here. If we can
look at this correctly, it seems to me there is.
S7 (35:18):
Yeah, I think as grandparents, the Lord's given us several
tools in our toolbox to work with. One of them
is prayer, one of them is our words. But you're right, Janet.
One of them is, what are the grandkids seeing? Are
they seeing the transforming power, the transformational power of the
gospel in our lives that they see? The gospel isn't
(35:38):
just something we talk about on Sunday if we're together
for Sunday dinner after church, but Christ and his gospel
are part of the warp and woof of who we are,
how we live as people. And, uh. And I love
it when the grandkids want to ask questions. And they
they're pursuing these things because they, they not only hear
it from us, they're seeing it from us imperfectly. Yes,
(36:00):
but seeing it from us. So. Amen. We take great
delight in this role of grandparenting.
S1 (36:07):
And this goes back to your idea of leaning in.
They take great delight because they see it and they
want more. By the way, a word of encouragement to
anybody listening who is in an estranged relationship with their
grandkids now, for whatever reason, whatever the dynamic is, you're never,
ever far from your grandkids. Because I'm telling you, there's
nothing like the power of a grandparent. You can go
before the throne of grace and pray for those babies,
(36:28):
and you may never know until you're in his presence
what those prayers did. So keep praying back after this.
A seasoned marriage living the gospel in the middle years. Beyond.
It's the latest book by Doctor Larry McCall, director of
Walking Like Jesus Ministries. I've got a link, by the way,
(36:49):
on my information page, to the book and to the
ministry so you can learn more. And I hope you've
heard something that's encouraged you this hour. You know, Larry,
just by happenstance, I happened to catch a short little
interview that Jay Leno did with the man, and he
was sitting in his beautifully appointed garage with all of
his cars. The whole world knows that he's a car collector,
but he was talking about his marriage of 45 years
to his wife, who now was in the advanced stages
(37:11):
of Alzheimer's, and he talked about how he'll do shows
on the weekend. He'll leave on a Friday morning. He'll
be come back on a Saturday night after the show,
he said, Maybe I'm gone 38 hours the most, he said.
And I have a caregiver who takes care of her
while I'm gone. But then it's back again, and he said,
and I change her. I take her to the bathroom,
I dress her, I feed her, and he said, why
(37:32):
wouldn't I do that? I mean, I guess I made
this vow and that means I just don't walk out
the door. The door. It means I stick with it. Now,
between us, I know that he I don't know that
he's ever made a profession of faith, but I thought, oh,
that we all would take those vows as seriously. We
talk about, for better or worse, in sickness and in health.
The words trip off on our wedding day, but we
don't think that choice will ever come down the road.
(37:53):
You write about this. You talk about accepting, facing physical changes.
You know what is man? That thou art mindful of him.
We're just a blade of grass that withers away. You know,
all of these things come into play and you're thinking,
why do we get surprised? We're all told that this
is going to happen when it comes. We seem to
be off footing. You know what? This is not happening
to me. So again, so much more in the book
(38:14):
probably than we could get into here. But give me
some an overview, some of the things. Because should the
Lord bless you with threescore and ten or more, for
that matter, how do we prepare for the fact that
we wither away? Which means we're going to shed this
apartment building, as my mama used to call it. And
someday we get that glorious body. And even so, come,
Lord Jesus. Can't wait.
S7 (38:35):
Yes, well, I think it's good to think about that
because it does happen. And those who are in the
middle years might not be thinking about it much yet.
But is the birthday candles continue to increase. You will
think about it more and more. And you wonder when
you stand up. What that snap, crackle, pop was. It
wasn't your cereal. Um. You know. And why do we
(38:55):
groan when we stand? You know, I'm there. Um. But yeah,
to realize that, number one, bodies are good. And I
think one thing that is missing in our Christian thinking
sometimes is that bodies are good, but they're not to
be idolized. And so to have a biblical anthropology, a
biblical understanding of our bodies, um, God designed bodies is good.
(39:19):
He said that in Genesis, and as you just alluded to,
we will get new bodies one day. We're going to
spend eternity on the new heavens and new earth, physically
in bodies. You read about that, um, in First Corinthians 15.
So we will have bodies then. But, uh, in the meantime,
our bodies are in this fallen world having the effects
(39:40):
of the fall, having the effects of the curse. And
it's not only our bodies, but if our spouses also
live to be old, we will see our spouses bodies
decline as well and have attitudes that are, on one hand, honest.
I think about what Paul said in Romans eight when
he said, we groan waiting for the adoption of our bodies.
(40:03):
And so it's not wrong to groan if we're groaning
in hope. That's what he said. We groan in hope
like a woman about to give birth. Um, so it's
a hopeful groaning like Lord, not groaning and complaining, but
groaning in anticipation that one day we get new bodies. Um,
but on the other hand, to to not despair and to, uh,
(40:23):
I hear people thinking, oh, you know, I can't do
anything anymore. I can't do what I used to do. Uh, yeah,
we we do. Slow down. Yeah, we do feel pains.
But what can I do? What will God call me
to do in this season of life? And how can
I help my spouse with that? And, um, you know,
as we age, we lose some of our energy, we
lose some of our strength. We lose some of our
(40:43):
youthful looks. But even as married people, to still find
delight in one another, uh, complimenting one another, encouraging one another. Um, yeah.
And even in intimacy, even though it might be more
challenging in our older years to still realize that's a
gift from God as much as we're able, uh, you know,
there's there's a biblical understanding of the body that I
think we need to think about more. Teach on more
(41:05):
of those of us that are teachers of God's word. Uh,
that people not just give in to our culture's understanding
that usually it's that the body is to be idolized,
and there's a passion to deny the reality of the
advancing of years and the decline of our physical bodies.
S1 (41:21):
Yeah. You offer many scriptures in the book and what
the Bible has to say about old age. You know,
it's funny because you can read verses about the Lord
taking care of your wobbling knees. Uh, you can read
verses about, you know, getting gray hair. I mean, the
Bible doesn't ignore the fact that we are getting older.
Does it help to understand that, particularly for the believer,
if Christ in us is the hope of glory, and
(41:43):
he certainly is, if we know him as Lord and Savior? Um,
there's a there's there has to be an anticipation there.
An unknown, yes, but an anticipation that has to come
with joy. I think, particularly for people who've been married
a long period of time. The biggest issue is what
if I go before her or she goes before me?
That's that's incomprehensible. It's unthinkable. Lord, how do I prepare
(42:07):
for that? What do you say to couples about that?
S7 (42:09):
Um, well, thanks for asking. Yeah, except for those very
rare instances where maybe a couple is killed in a
car wreck or something. Um, one of us is going
to walk the other to the door of heaven, and
we don't necessarily know which one it'll be or when
it'll be, but it will happen. It almost surely will happen.
(42:30):
One of us will walk the other to the door
of heaven and to, um, Look forward to that day
with tears on her cheeks, but with hope in our
heart that as difficult as that can be, we we
prepare for that. Not that we live morbidly, but we
realize that, um, the clock is ticking. Uh, we have
(42:52):
fewer laps to run ahead of us than we have
behind us. And so does our spouse. And to, uh,
go into those older years hand in hand with our
hope in the Lord, knowing that, uh, one day he's
coming back and all the wrongs will be made. Right.
We get new bodies, and so we go forward, uh,
with groaning with hope hand in hand.
S1 (43:16):
I love that groaning with hope. Not two words you
usually couple together. But for the believer, again, this goes
back to something we said earlier, which is I love
the fact that we are so utterly countercultural, groaning with hope.
Who can do that? Unless Jesus is the center of
their life, their marriage, and their heart? Larry, I love
the book and I want to point out again, there's
so are so many pragmatics here. We didn't even touch
(43:37):
on your whole segment on retirement or friendship or dealing
with financial changes. That's what I love about the book,
is that in a typical pastor's heart's way, just then
that's who you are. You just ground this scripturally, but
that doesn't mean that you abandon the pragmatics that have
to be dealt with as well. So thank you on
so many levels for the book. I'm going to tell
my oh, it's a joy. The book again is called
(43:59):
A Seasoned Marriage Leaving the Gospel in the Middle Years
and Beyond. And this is where you are. I can't
recommend it enough. Just take great comfort and you can
hear this gentle man's heart out of the overflow of
the heart. The mouth speaks. And you've got an insight
into who Larry McCall is and the work that he's
done for so many years, particularly as director of Walking
Like Jesus Ministries. So it's all there in the information page.
(44:20):
Just check it out. In the market with Janet Parshall.
Click on the red box that says Program Details and Audio,
and it'll take you to the page to find all
the great information. Thank you Larry. Thank you friends. We'll
see you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.
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(00:20):
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(00:40):
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S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:38):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S6 (01:44):
A divorce tax is not.
S1 (02:00):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Who doesn't want to talk about marriage I certainly do.
Tell me about your marriage. Are you newlywed? Are you
about to be married? Or are you in the midst
of what we call a seasoned marriage? Well, if you're
in that last category, this program is custom designed for you,
and there are a lot of us in that area.
So we're going to talk about it with Doctor Larry McCall,
(02:21):
who serves as the director of Walking Like Jesus Ministries.
He served as the lead pastor at Christ Covenant Church
of Winona Lake, Indiana, for over 30 years, followed by
more than ten years on the pastoral staff. He's a
grad of Grace College. Grace Theological Seminary has a doctorate
of ministry from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He's written numerous
articles for publications. He's the author of Walking Like Jesus Did,
(02:44):
Loving Your Wife as Christ Loves the Church, Grandparenting with grace,
and the one we're talking about today, a seasoned marriage.
And Larry, I have to tell you, here's where your
bio and mine intersect. Just like you. I married my
high school sweetheart, just like you. You're about to celebrate.
If you haven't just crossed that threshold your 50th year.
I've got a few more years beyond that point. Something
(03:06):
about marrying your high school sweetheart. My husband likes to say,
when God made us, he split us from the same atom.
And maybe it's because we were teenagers together. And now
we've got crow's feet and little gray at the temples.
And there's just something about growing old together. Like the
poet says, the best is yet to come. I love
your passion for this particular topic. I want to make
sure our friends listening all across the country are on
(03:27):
the same page. However, when you say a seasoned marriage,
we're not talking about oregano. Tell me what you mean
by a seasoned marriage.
S7 (03:34):
Yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, we're talking about people that, um.
It doesn't necessarily mean you've been married a whole lot
of years. It could be you were widowed or divorced
and remarried. But the point is that you are in
your seasoned years. So if you have probably crossed the
halfway point in life, you're in your seasoned years. And
if you're married, that's who we're talking about.
S1 (03:56):
So it isn't just the marriage aspect. I want to
make sure I understand this. It's your walk in life
individually that what you deal with at 40 is not
necessarily the same sort of challenges you face when you're 24.
Do I have that right?
S7 (04:08):
You have that right.
S1 (04:10):
And so as a result of that, the dynamic in
the marriage changes. Correct?
S7 (04:14):
Yes. And the issues that come up in marriage change.
S1 (04:17):
Yeah. Exactly right. So let me just from the 35,000
foot perspective. And by the way, your book is fabulous.
The foreword written by our mutual friend Bob Lepine. It's
just a wonderful, wonderful book, and I thank you for that.
S7 (04:28):
But thank you, Janet.
S1 (04:29):
If you're looking at at life in general, you know,
we've got these. You know, the Bible talks about the
different kinds of love. C.S. Lewis wrote the book The
Four Faces of Love. When we talk about the way
love changes, I'll bet the way you felt toward your
precious high school sweetheart, um, is always there. But it's
not the same as getting butterflies when she walked in
the room, necessarily, when you were in high school then,
(04:51):
where you are in the relationship now and some people
listening and going, well, no, I want it always like that.
Is it a bad thing that love changes over time?
S7 (04:59):
I don't think so, Janet. I think it deepens. It broadens.
In some ways it's more precious. And I'm not the
only older person. That said, I think I love my
spouse more now than I did the day I said
I do. It's a different kind of love. It's a
sweet love, though.
S1 (05:13):
Oh, and it's a friendship, is it not?
S7 (05:16):
It is. Yeah. I'm so glad I'm walking life with
my wife.
S1 (05:21):
Yeah. And I think when we abandoned the idea that
it isn't just this idea of companionship, but it really is.
I often refer to my husband as my best friend.
We'll be talking and I'll say, and I can share
this with you as my best friend, because he has
a multitude of things. But our spouse should be, particularly
when we're at this stage of life, shouldn't they be
our best friend as well?
S7 (05:40):
Yes, I think our best friend and I think about
it too. As a believer, she's my strongest accountability partner.
I'm doing life with her. She knows all about me.
S1 (05:50):
And there. So at that end, by the way, does
that not create a kind of intimacy in a relationship?
Because I don't know about you, Larry, but there's nobody
else in the world that knows me like my husband
or knows things about me like my husband.
S7 (06:02):
And the amazing thing is, Janet, they still love us.
S1 (06:05):
Yeah. Exactly right. That's a wonderful thought. Well, you talk
about three things in the beginning of the book that
are all beginning with the letter R reflecting, responding, and releasing.
Walk me through that.
S7 (06:20):
Yeah. Well, when you think about, um, the different stages
of life, especially once we've crossed the half point, um,
life changes. There's a lot of changes that come just
in the Lord's normal providence, and we have to respond
to those. And, um, and then we begin to release
things as you think about getting older. And I'll soon
(06:40):
be 71. In our culture, usually age is associated with
some kind of loss. We release certain things. We release
our youthful vigor. We release our youthful looks. We release
maybe our children into adult life. We release our old
jobs and retire from them. So there's all of that.
(07:01):
But all the while we are clinging on to Christ,
focusing on.
S1 (07:06):
Him. Yeah. Exactly right. So to that end, excuse me
for clearing my throat. To that end, you say declaratively
that marriage is for Christ. What do you mean by that?
S7 (07:17):
Yeah, well, I don't know. I think we were married
about 20 years, and I had been a pastor for
a lot of those 20 years. I don't think I
realized the primary purpose of marriage. That's humbling to admit. But, um,
I guess I, like a lot of young people, went
into marriage thinking marriage is for me. Um, this young
(07:37):
lady named Nadine, she sure makes me happy. I would
like to marry her and give her the opportunity of
making me happy for the rest of her life, And
I didn't say those words, Deanna. But, you know, I
think that was what was in my heart. It's about me.
It's about my happiness. But then realizing in Ephesians 532
when Paul's talking about marriage there in that context, he says,
(07:59):
But I'm speaking of Christ in the church. And God's
plan all along, from before the foundation of the world
was he wanted this living re-enactment of the greatest love
story ever, the love that Christ has for his bride,
the church and marriage is that living re-enactment. And so
for my wife and I to go through life, whether
it be married five years or 50 years, realizing we're
(08:22):
on mission, and it's a glorious mission that together we're
reflecting Christ's love for his bride. So it's for him.
And that ups the ante, as we say, you know,
we think, well, we really need to work on our
marriage because of the mission we're on.
S1 (08:36):
Yeah, Larry, you've touched on something so profound, something that's
so anti-secular, if I can put it that way. Something
that the world never talks about. They're too interested in
having a say yes to the dress and what the
colour of the bridesmaids dresses are, and whether or not
you're going to have a location honeymoon. But if it's
about Christ. Going back to that mystery you referred to
(08:57):
in Ephesians five, there's a profundity here. I know the
world doesn't get it, and sometimes the church ignores it.
So when we come back, can we dig a little
deeper to that? Because first principles are very important. If
we understood that first marriage is for Christ, from that
would flow a myriad of choices in the way in
which we interact with our spouse. That might be different
(09:17):
if we stopped and thought, this is the mystery, it
is for Christ first. Doctor Larry McCall is with us.
He's got a brand new book out called A Seasoned
Marriage Living the Gospel in the Middle Years and Beyond,
back after this. Bible literacy is declining even among Christians.
It's time for us to cultivate Bible reading habits that
(09:39):
will transform our faith. That's why I've chosen The Jesus
Book as this month's truth tool. Discover how to apply
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As for your copy of the Jesus Book, when you
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in the market with Janet parshall.org. We're talking with Doctor
(10:03):
Larry McCall, who's the director of Walking Like Jesus Ministries,
and about his brand new book. It's called A Seasoned
Marriage Living the Gospel in the Middle Years and beyond. Great.
I think important conversation. And you just touched on, I think,
a seminal thought that really needs to be fleshed out
a little bit because it's so profound. I love it.
In fact, I can hear the voice of the male
(10:24):
singer in The Messiah. Behold, I show you a mystery.
Write the words right out of Ephesians five that this
marriage union that God institutes, defines and implements in a
place of perfection. Larry. Three institutions family, government, church in
that order, but the only one made in a place
of perfection was the family. Gives us a big hint
about how dear, precious this is to the heart of God.
(10:46):
And so you say in the book, rightfully so, that
marriage is first for Christ. Now the world doesn't get that.
The church needs to get that. And then yet the
church at the same time goes, I fall so short
of who Christ is, how can I ever have a
marriage that is, quote, successful when I can't be like
Christ 24 over seven? Only my Savior can. So walk
(11:07):
us through that.
S7 (11:08):
Um, well, thanks for asking, Janet. Yeah, marriage is for Christ,
and I agree, not only the world doesn't get it,
but a lot of times as a church, we've ignored
this issue, this whole framework for marriage. And we are naturally, sinfully,
I should say, self-centered. And in our culture, marriages. Uh,
in that context, marriage is, for me, marriages for my happiness.
(11:31):
And I've had a few people push back on me
and say, well, you're being a little hard. And I say, well,
you know, having been a pastor for over 40 years,
if I have to, or my fellow pastors get involved
in a marriage that's breaking up and saying, why are
you pursuing divorce? The most common answer is, I'm just
not happy anymore. And it's all about me. It's all
(11:54):
about my happiness. And marriage does bring joy. I'm not
on any anti happiness campaign, but marriage is fundamentally a
living picture, a living reenactment of the greatest love story ever.
It's a picture of Christ and His love for his bride.
That was God's intention all along, and we see hints
of it, uh, all through the Old Testament, with Israel
(12:17):
being depicted as a bride and unfaithful bride, but a bride. Um,
Isaiah 62. There's these wonderful passages about how God sees
his people, but then New Testament, it's like he pulls
back the curtains and he says, look, this was my
plan all along. I wanted your marriage to be missional.
I wanted your marriage to depict the love that Christ
(12:38):
has for his bride. And if we see that, it
begins to shape everything, and even in that Ephesians five passage.
You know, husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved
the church and gave himself up for wives. Submit to
your husbands as to the Lord, and you can keep
on going through that whole section. Parent. Child. Relationships. Employee. Employer.
(13:01):
They're all Christ centered. They're all Christ centered. That as Christians,
we live in the power of the gospel. We live
in the presence of the gospel. We live out the
gospel in our relationships. And it's actually a glorious thing
to pursue.
S1 (13:16):
Yes. Amen to that. I was thinking also, it's sort
of like the gospel impact first in Jerusalem, then Judea,
then Samaria, then the innermost parts of the world. If
I start with the idea, if my husband and I
start with the idea that marriage is for Christ, it's
going to be, first of all, a witness to each other.
It has to be a witness to the children observing us.
It has to be a witness to the neighbors and
(13:38):
friends who observe our marriage. It has to be a
witness to a world that when Christ is the center
of your marriage, there isn't even a conversation about divorce
or breaking up, or I'm not happy anymore because it's
a me centric response. I mean, it's so I love
the idea that as believers so often we are by
design anti-cultural not to be obnoxious or obstructionist, but because
(13:58):
we really do live a different way. And I love
the idea that the scriptures call us to really have
this idea of loving our spouse the way we're supposed to.
Now what happens? And let me talk to your pastor's
heart on this, because that's the goal. And you always
want to say, here's the bar. This is what we're
trying to obtain to now you're going to miss the
bar sometimes because all have sinned and come short of
(14:19):
the glory of God, because we're still having this Pauline
war between flesh and spirit. So when I miss the mark,
and a lot of people listening might have had that
moment today, they go, well, that's it, I've blown it.
It's never going to happen again. Talk to me about this. Wash, rinse,
spin and dry cycle that we get because I think
it's important for us.
S7 (14:38):
Yes. Yeah. The gospel teaches us grace. Um, and when
we think about that, I mean, sometimes I think we
forget God's not only gives us this calling, but he
gives us everything we need to fulfill that calling. And
we often lose sight of that and fail. And yet,
the gospel is that he forgives us. And and to
find that with joy and gratitude that he's a forgiving God.
(15:00):
And it moves us to want to please him even more. Um,
but yeah, he's not an, um, a celestial ogre with
a club hanging over our heads. He's our loving Heavenly
Father who wants us. And I think about this, and
I think about how the Holy Spirit wants Christ to
be honored in our lives. Uh, second Corinthians 318 and
(15:20):
he wants Christ to be honored in our marriages. And
rather than feeling defeated, I've blown it. There's no hope.
We lean in and we say, Holy Spirit, come and
show me Christ. Holy spirit, come and have Christ reflected
more clearly, clearly in my life, in our marriage. And
it's as if I'm speaking for the Holy Spirit here.
(15:41):
That's kind of dangerous, isn't it? But it's as if
the Holy Spirit would say, thank you for asking. That's
exactly what I want in your marriage. There's great hope there.
There's great strength there that we lean into the help
of the spirit, applying the scriptures in our marriages so
that we can get up, dust ourselves off. Or if
you said wash, rinse, recycle, whatever that we lean into
(16:02):
that and our marriages continue to grow and Lord willing,
over time becomes sweeter, more clear reflections of Christ and
His love for his bride.
S1 (16:11):
So just one sentence or two, if you would, Larry,
because we talked about marriage as Christ. But then what
you don't say is marriage is me. The next step
that you write about in a seasoned marriage is marriage
is our spouse. Now that to me, that's a perfectly
logical next step. Um, for others I might not see
necessarily how that is a continuum. Explain that to us.
S7 (16:31):
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad to talk about that, Mary.
Just for Christ first. Secondly, Mary, just for my spouse.
And I think of what Paul said about sexual intimacy
in marriage in first Corinthians seven, where he said the
husband's body doesn't belong to himself, it belongs to his wife.
The wife's body doesn't belong to herself, belongs to her husband.
That there's a voluntary glad reciprocity there, a giving of oneself.
(16:56):
And that pattern, even in intimacy, is reflected in all
other dynamics of marriage that I am for you by
God's grace.
S5 (17:04):
Wow.
S1 (17:05):
What a wonderful conversation and what a great thing to
think about. Maybe you've had a busy day. Maybe you're
going home and you had a fight. You left this
morning and it was anything but a joyous place to
return to. Maybe God is stirring your heart a little bit.
So before you pull into the driveway, things are going
to be different tonight, I hope so. I want you
to be encouraged. Doctor Larry McCall is our guest director
of Walking Like Jesus Ministries and the author of A
(17:27):
Seasoned Marriage, the book we're talking about. More after this.
Doctor Larry McCall has a brand new book out. It's
called A Seasoned Marriage Living the Gospel in the Middle
Years and Beyond. Larry, of course, is the director of
Walking Like Jesus Ministries. Now, there's a lot in this book,
(17:50):
and even with the irreplaceable gift of one hour of
Larry's time, I can't cover it all. But that's okay.
I'm not doing a fireside chat or a book report.
I want you to stir your heart with this conversation.
I want you to start thinking more critically and biblically
on these topics as well. And then I want you
to get a copy of the book and do some
deep diving. The subtitle is Living the Gospel in the
Middle Years and Beyond, and that's where I want to
(18:12):
go next, Larry, because for most people who are in
those middle years of their marriage, in that season marriage,
their children are starting to grow up. They're starting to
leave the nest. They're starting to leave home. I have
said it before, I will say it again give me
potty training any day of the week. It is parenting
the adult children that keep me up at night. So
(18:33):
talk to me about trying to make that change. You
preceded this conversation about launching our kids with a conversation
about really having to recognize the change is coming, and
knowing something about ourselves and trusting God in the midst
of change because it is inevitable, but nobody likes it.
Even a baby cries when it gets changed, right? So
change is one of those things we struggle with. But kids,
I think, is a perfect, concrete example of this. So
(18:55):
it's one thing to say, well, they're under our roof,
they're under our wing, we're going to raise them, but
now they're going their own way, and they're going to
make decisions that we can't stop them from doing. Because
as our friend Doctor Gary Chapman says, you're an adult.
You'll make the right decision. And the prodigal dad stayed
put even though his son was dining with pigs. So
walk me through this idea of launching our kids into
(19:16):
adult life, because this can put stress on a marriage.
S7 (19:19):
Yes. In fact, Janet, it does put a lot of
stress on a lot of marriages, and, uh, we didn't
experience a whole lot of stress on our marriage. When
I left home, they all left in a good fashion.
But I still remember our different responses when our last
one got married. Uh, my wife said, oh, Larry, now
it's just us. And I said, oh no, Gladys, now
(19:42):
it's just us. And it's all in the inflection. Uh.
S1 (19:46):
Yes, sir.
S7 (19:49):
Yeah, we were looking at it a little bit differently,
but it is hard. I think launching kids is difficult
on a couple of levels. I think, uh, for one,
our individual identity as a Christian man, a Christian woman.
And I see this particularly with mothers, even more so
with men. It can happen in both, but I see
it more often with women who have found their identity
(20:09):
in being mom. And now the kids are all gone.
So that's one issue that has to be bathed in prayer, uh,
saturated in the gospel. How does she transition, finding her
identity in Christ and not just being raising the kid's mother.
But I think also there can be real stress on
the marriage relationship, and I think that's understandable on several levels.
(20:31):
One is especially if a couple has had multiple children
that are spread out a little bit, they might have
spent 25 or 30 years raising those kids. And now
the kids are gone, and they've spent so many years
focusing on those kids that it's quite possible, maybe even probable,
that they've neglected working on their marriage. And so now
(20:53):
the empty nest is, uh, it's like pulling off the
covers and like, who? Who is this? Who is this
person that I'm married to? And and it's almost like
the need to start fresh. Uh, where are we in
our marriage? So that's a real challenge to.
S1 (21:08):
Can I linger here, Larry? Can I? Because I love
your pastor's heart on this. So, so many questions. I
want to ask you about this, because I think it
really resonates with a lot of people listening to us
right now. So if you've had what some of my
friends have called a child centered marriage, and then they're gone.
And now it's like you look in the mirror and go,
and you are, you know, and you look at your
husband and say, I need a name tag. Hello, my
name is fill in the blank. And they realize, uh oh,
(21:31):
we were so child focused that we really didn't take
the time to develop each other's best interests into their lives,
to serve them the way Christ wants us to serve them.
Where do you start, then? Because I. We serve a
God who gives us fresh starts. And his tender mercies
are renewed every single morning. So if that's where someone
finds themselves today, they shouldn't flee with fear. And you
(21:53):
write a lot about how we avoid fear when change
in our lives. How does one then start to rediscover
this person? They said I do to and they said,
and we're going to live happily ever after.
S7 (22:05):
Yeah, I think it has to start, obviously in the heart. Um,
and in the book I refer to this as marital monotony.
And I think some couples get there and the kids
are gone and they look at each other and they
don't feel close anymore. And they think, well, that's just
the way it's going to be. And so they try
to find a comfortable distance from one another where they're
(22:26):
not really divorced, but they're not really close relationally. The
relationship's not marked by love and friendship. Um, it's just
kind of a working relationship. Kind of, uh, coworkers more
than husband and wife. But I think whichever one and hopefully,
you know, it's not just the woman here, but the
man as well, have a desire to be close and
(22:46):
to talk to one another and say, you know, as
I look at our relationship, I realize we've drifted apart.
And a time of confession, um, you know, and an
expression of love to be close to you again. Is
that your desire as well? And I wonder what it
would take to do that. And lots of time talking
and listening. And, um, that's been one of my challenges
(23:07):
over the years, is being a good listener, listening to
my wife's heart. You know what's really going on with her?
And I think that, uh, even a confession of I've
been negligent as a husband, or I've been negligent as
a wife, would you forgive me? And the humility of
the heart. The good news is it says in the
Bible several places God opposes the proud. Grace to the humble.
(23:30):
So to humble ourselves and go before the Lord, asking
his forgiveness, asking our spouse's forgiveness, and then begin to
date again, begin to do things together. And it could
be simple things. My wife and I do more grocery
shopping together in this season than we have since we
were newlyweds.
S1 (23:47):
Oh, I can relate.
S7 (23:48):
Yeah, and that's good. It gives us something to do together.
We walk together. I mean, we look for things to
do together.
S1 (23:54):
Yeah. Intentionality there really does have to be that intentionality.
The book is wonderful. It is called A Seasoned Marriage,
and the subtitle is Living the Gospel in the Midlife Years,
Middle Years and Beyond. It is wonderful. It is biblical.
First lesson always, as you would expect from Doctor Larry McCall.
But it is also very, very practical. And at the end,
all kinds of questions that make you sift and weigh
(24:16):
and eventually own and apply what you've just read through
Larry's writing and through his wisdom back after this. We
(24:39):
live in complicated times and in the market. We're helping
you interpret complex cultural issues through the lens of Scripture.
Our team of partial partners is growing, and to say
thank you, they receive exclusive information from me. In fact,
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(25:00):
to in the market with Janet Parshall. We're having a
wonderful conversation with Doctor Larry McCall regarding his brand new
book called A Seasoned Marriage Living the gospel in the
middle years and beyond. As I said, and I'll repeat myself,
very biblical, but likewise very pragmatic. And he covers a
lot of the issues that marriages in those middle years
(25:21):
have to contend with. Larry, of course, is the director
of Walking Like Jesus Ministries. He's written several books, all
of which I can and will happily recommend. So let
me just tackle some of these issues like you do, Larry,
in the book, which I thought was tremendous. And you
go and I will point out to my friends that
you go much deeper on every one of these topics
in the book, but I want to do kind of
a flyover so that people will understand that. Again, it
(25:43):
is biblical, but it's also pragmatic. So talk to me
about what happens when you step into the age of
aging parents. You know, it's one of those I don't
want to talk about it. If I ignore it, the
issue will go away. But the potential is there that
there would be for elderly people for whom decisions have
to be made about their care and well-being. Where does
the couple start with something like that?
S7 (26:06):
Yeah, sometimes it happens rather suddenly. Um, couple in their 40s, 50s, 60s,
possibly even the early 70s, um, have elderly parents and
mom or dad maybe had a stroke. And this couple
is now thrust into how do we care for mom?
How do we care for dad? For others, it's more gradual.
They see their aging parents gradually declining, realizing that they
(26:28):
help that mom or dad or both of them need
is increasing, uh, more areas, uh, more complex issues. And
so I think to remember God's calling on our life.
I say in the book, did you ever notice that
that commandment honor your father and mother doesn't have an
age limit? Mhm. Um, that wasn't just a throw in
(26:49):
command for the kids of Israel. Uh, that's true in
all of life. And Gladion and I had the privilege
of helping to care for her mother before she passed. Uh,
or other parents. Excuse me. All died rather suddenly and
didn't require that. But it was a good lesson of
knowing how as a couple we could serve an aging parent,
(27:12):
while at the same time not neglecting our marriage. And
it was a challenge. But, uh. We look back with
fondness over those months and years, we helped care for
my dear mother in law. But, um, yeah, I think
there's obviously the focus on the parent themselves. We need
to treat them with honor, with respect, with love, and
(27:32):
and not with rudeness. Treating them like an aged child. Uh,
they're an adult. They're an image bearer of God, uh,
our parents. And to treat them that way. But as
a couple thinking, how can we do this together? How
can we be a ministry team in caring for mom,
caring for dad. And and I think I've seen situations
where the the, the lady, the mother, the excuse me, the, um,
(27:56):
the wife in a situation throws herself into that ministry.
And the husband just kind of, you know, stays home
and eats peanut butter sandwiches and watches sports on TV
or something, you know? Um, but to be engaged as
a couple and, um. Yeah. And to look for ways
we can each contribute to the care of that aging parent.
A way that would honor God and honor that parent.
S1 (28:17):
So perfectly stated. And when you were talking, I was
thinking over and over and over again, go back to
the first principle marriage is for Christ. So I loved
everything you said had a ministerial aspect to it. Um,
it almost goes without saying, but I want to state
the obvious here. As a husband and wife, is it
imperative that you spend time together discussing what each can contribute,
(28:40):
what you're willing to do, what your overall plan is?
You know God will give the direction, but as a
husband and wife, you want to make that plan and
then commit it to prayer so that you can commit
to the ministry of taking care of this aged parent
exactly as you've planned and prayed for.
S7 (28:56):
That's a wonderful way to say it. Janet and I
agree entirely with that. That, um, it's not just the
blood child caring for that parent, But we are a team.
We are one as husband and wife and we want
to carry for mom. We want to carry for dad,
whether it's our biological parent or our in-law parent, and
to pray over that together, talk about it. And if
you have siblings, adult siblings, it could also be involved
(29:19):
to be in person or zoom calls where you talk
about how are we going to care for mom, how
are we going to care for dad? But, um, I
think it's a challenge. And you know what, Janet? There
are couples out there right now that are not only
caring for an elderly parent, but they still have their
own kids in the house and the sandwich generation, where
they're caring for generations behind and generations ahead. And that's
(29:43):
a special challenge. And for the marriage, it will be
a strain on the marriage. But to not let it
be disastrously straining on marriage takes intentionality, takes leaning into
God's grace, open conversation, uh, sacrificial love for one another,
as well as for the generations before and after. Uh,
it can be a very busy season of life, but
(30:03):
God's grace is sufficient.
S1 (30:06):
Amen. You know our similar situation, Larry, to you? Um,
we had that experience as well. We took in our dad.
And I'm so very, very grateful because in the end,
these were some of the sweetest times I had with
him before he stepped into eternity. And if this is
done right, this has the potential. Yes, there are all
kinds of strains that are realities that could come into play.
(30:27):
But could you say, particularly in your circumstance, that it
also could be a very fruitful season in your marriage
as well?
S7 (30:34):
Yes, I think it can be. And I think, uh,
you know, in our case, it was my mother in law.
And I think as my wife saw me love her mother. Well,
and I think it warmed her heart to see that I,
I miss my mother in law. I mean, the jokes
about mothers in law, sons in law not getting along.
That wasn't our case. Uh, I loved my mother, I
(30:54):
miss her. I'm getting a little teary here. Just talking
about her. She just died a couple years ago, but, um.
But I think it's bonding to the couple. The married couple,
when they see my spouse, cares for my parents. I
love my parents. My husband, my wife cares for my parents,
and we're in this together. We are serving together, using
our different gifts, different abilities, different time availability. But we're
(31:16):
doing this together as a couple. And I saw the
same thing with my wife's siblings and their spouses, not
just for me, but I saw she had two siblings.
I saw all three couples become as couples and it
was bonding even for a family. Now, sadly, some some
families are more divided. Uh, it actually helped unite us.
S1 (31:37):
Yes, yes. Wow. And again, so much more in the
book on this, but in deference to time. So let
me flip the spectrum from the aging parent to becoming grandparents.
Now again, we've got the world teaching us theology on
this and creating all kinds of expectations. And so here
this can be a blessing or it can be a
burden if you're not going to Christ first on all
of this. So give me some sagely wisdom on what
(32:00):
our approach should be. You know, I love to hear
grandparents say, I have one job in life, and that's
to spoil my children. Craig and I have gotten to
the point where we say we have one job in
life when it comes to our grandchildren, and that's to
build character. And I think that that has to be,
you know, yes, I'd love to spoil them and I'm
glad I can also. I remember Chuck Swindoll saying, I
love him, but I love to see the tail lights
when they pull out of the driveway, you know? So
(32:23):
there there has to be this balanced approach. Again, I
don't want to be child centric with our own children.
And now repeat it all over again with the grandchildren.
Give us some wisdom on this change in a seasoned
marriage and how we should approach it.
S7 (32:35):
Yeah, thanks for asking. You know, a neat story. Just
before I get on the air here I was with
three of our grandkids, 17, 15 and ten. And a
week ago, the 15 year old was talking to me
here at her home. And she said, you know, Papa,
I am so thankful for grandparents that are involved in
my life, not just coming to my sports events and
(32:57):
my musical events. But you're pouring into me spiritually. And
I was just deeply moved with gratitude. And here's a
15 year old gal who's recognizing that this isn't normal.
She says her friends don't have that. And I think
you're right, Janet. I think in our culture, the Gladion
and I do a lot of speaking on Grandparenting. One
of my books is called Grandparenting with Grace. So I
(33:19):
probably do 8 to 10 conferences a year on Grandparenting,
and I often ask grandparents as an intro, um, you know,
what is the best parenting? And you can guess, most
people say spoil the grandkids and send them home. Exactly.
And I try to be polite, but it's not funny anymore.
I mean, who wants spoiled kids? It doesn't do them
(33:42):
any favor. It doesn't do the parents any favor, and
it doesn't. Please, God. Um, what is our calling? Grandparents
are missional, just like Mary. Just missional, says Grandparenting. Psalm
78 says one generation shall tell another generation about the greatness,
the grace of God. And then you drop down to
verse seven. It says so that they would put their
hope in God. And we can't give our grandkids faith,
(34:04):
but we sure can talk to them about the glory,
glorious grace of God in a way that makes them
want to lean in and say, oh, tell me more, Papa.
Tell me more, grandma. And, um, yeah, our mission is
to be very intentional. Yes. To have fun with the grandkids. Sure. Um,
you know, to sit around and talk about their grades
(34:25):
and school and sports and music. Yes. But it's to
talk to them about Christ, to show them Christ. And, um,
you know, I want my grandkids to grow up remembering,
you know, that their grandparents, um, poured the gospel into
them with a sweet flavor.
S1 (34:44):
Yeah. I love that so much. Um, and I'm thinking
I like what Jim Dobson said. In the end, he
said values are much more caught than they are taught
to our grandchildren. Not look to us even if it's
not articulated and long to see authentic Christianity not being
lectured at, but to see how that relationship with the
living Savior affects how we speak, how we live, how
(35:06):
we act, our relationship with our spouse, our relationship with
our adult children, our even our relationship with them. In
other words, there's very fertile fields here. If we can
look at this correctly, it seems to me there is.
S7 (35:18):
Yeah, I think as grandparents, the Lord's given us several
tools in our toolbox to work with. One of them
is prayer, one of them is our words. But you're right, Janet.
One of them is, what are the grandkids seeing? Are
they seeing the transforming power, the transformational power of the
gospel in our lives that they see? The gospel isn't
(35:38):
just something we talk about on Sunday if we're together
for Sunday dinner after church, but Christ and his gospel
are part of the warp and woof of who we are,
how we live as people. And, uh. And I love
it when the grandkids want to ask questions. And they
they're pursuing these things because they, they not only hear
it from us, they're seeing it from us imperfectly. Yes,
(36:00):
but seeing it from us. So. Amen. We take great
delight in this role of grandparenting.
S1 (36:07):
And this goes back to your idea of leaning in.
They take great delight because they see it and they
want more. By the way, a word of encouragement to
anybody listening who is in an estranged relationship with their
grandkids now, for whatever reason, whatever the dynamic is, you're never,
ever far from your grandkids. Because I'm telling you, there's
nothing like the power of a grandparent. You can go
before the throne of grace and pray for those babies,
(36:28):
and you may never know until you're in his presence
what those prayers did. So keep praying back after this.
A seasoned marriage living the gospel in the middle years. Beyond.
It's the latest book by Doctor Larry McCall, director of
Walking Like Jesus Ministries. I've got a link, by the way,
(36:49):
on my information page, to the book and to the
ministry so you can learn more. And I hope you've
heard something that's encouraged you this hour. You know, Larry,
just by happenstance, I happened to catch a short little
interview that Jay Leno did with the man, and he
was sitting in his beautifully appointed garage with all of
his cars. The whole world knows that he's a car collector,
but he was talking about his marriage of 45 years
to his wife, who now was in the advanced stages
(37:11):
of Alzheimer's, and he talked about how he'll do shows
on the weekend. He'll leave on a Friday morning. He'll
be come back on a Saturday night after the show,
he said, Maybe I'm gone 38 hours the most, he said.
And I have a caregiver who takes care of her
while I'm gone. But then it's back again, and he said,
and I change her. I take her to the bathroom,
I dress her, I feed her, and he said, why
(37:32):
wouldn't I do that? I mean, I guess I made
this vow and that means I just don't walk out
the door. The door. It means I stick with it. Now,
between us, I know that he I don't know that
he's ever made a profession of faith, but I thought, oh,
that we all would take those vows as seriously. We
talk about, for better or worse, in sickness and in health.
The words trip off on our wedding day, but we
don't think that choice will ever come down the road.
(37:53):
You write about this. You talk about accepting, facing physical changes.
You know what is man? That thou art mindful of him.
We're just a blade of grass that withers away. You know,
all of these things come into play and you're thinking,
why do we get surprised? We're all told that this
is going to happen when it comes. We seem to
be off footing. You know what? This is not happening
to me. So again, so much more in the book
(38:14):
probably than we could get into here. But give me
some an overview, some of the things. Because should the
Lord bless you with threescore and ten or more, for
that matter, how do we prepare for the fact that
we wither away? Which means we're going to shed this
apartment building, as my mama used to call it. And
someday we get that glorious body. And even so, come,
Lord Jesus. Can't wait.
S7 (38:35):
Yes, well, I think it's good to think about that
because it does happen. And those who are in the
middle years might not be thinking about it much yet.
But is the birthday candles continue to increase. You will
think about it more and more. And you wonder when
you stand up. What that snap, crackle, pop was. It
wasn't your cereal. Um. You know. And why do we
(38:55):
groan when we stand? You know, I'm there. Um. But yeah,
to realize that, number one, bodies are good. And I
think one thing that is missing in our Christian thinking
sometimes is that bodies are good, but they're not to
be idolized. And so to have a biblical anthropology, a
biblical understanding of our bodies, um, God designed bodies is good.
(39:19):
He said that in Genesis, and as you just alluded to,
we will get new bodies one day. We're going to
spend eternity on the new heavens and new earth, physically
in bodies. You read about that, um, in First Corinthians 15.
So we will have bodies then. But, uh, in the meantime,
our bodies are in this fallen world having the effects
(39:40):
of the fall, having the effects of the curse. And
it's not only our bodies, but if our spouses also
live to be old, we will see our spouses bodies
decline as well and have attitudes that are, on one hand, honest.
I think about what Paul said in Romans eight when
he said, we groan waiting for the adoption of our bodies.
(40:03):
And so it's not wrong to groan if we're groaning
in hope. That's what he said. We groan in hope
like a woman about to give birth. Um, so it's
a hopeful groaning like Lord, not groaning and complaining, but
groaning in anticipation that one day we get new bodies. Um,
but on the other hand, to to not despair and to, uh,
(40:23):
I hear people thinking, oh, you know, I can't do
anything anymore. I can't do what I used to do. Uh, yeah,
we we do. Slow down. Yeah, we do feel pains.
But what can I do? What will God call me
to do in this season of life? And how can
I help my spouse with that? And, um, you know,
as we age, we lose some of our energy, we
lose some of our strength. We lose some of our
(40:43):
youthful looks. But even as married people, to still find
delight in one another, uh, complimenting one another, encouraging one another. Um, yeah.
And even in intimacy, even though it might be more
challenging in our older years to still realize that's a
gift from God as much as we're able, uh, you know,
there's there's a biblical understanding of the body that I
think we need to think about more. Teach on more
(41:05):
of those of us that are teachers of God's word. Uh,
that people not just give in to our culture's understanding
that usually it's that the body is to be idolized,
and there's a passion to deny the reality of the
advancing of years and the decline of our physical bodies.
S1 (41:21):
Yeah. You offer many scriptures in the book and what
the Bible has to say about old age. You know,
it's funny because you can read verses about the Lord
taking care of your wobbling knees. Uh, you can read
verses about, you know, getting gray hair. I mean, the
Bible doesn't ignore the fact that we are getting older.
Does it help to understand that, particularly for the believer,
if Christ in us is the hope of glory, and
(41:43):
he certainly is, if we know him as Lord and Savior? Um,
there's a there's there has to be an anticipation there.
An unknown, yes, but an anticipation that has to come
with joy. I think, particularly for people who've been married
a long period of time. The biggest issue is what
if I go before her or she goes before me?
That's that's incomprehensible. It's unthinkable. Lord, how do I prepare
(42:07):
for that? What do you say to couples about that?
S7 (42:09):
Um, well, thanks for asking. Yeah, except for those very
rare instances where maybe a couple is killed in a
car wreck or something. Um, one of us is going
to walk the other to the door of heaven, and
we don't necessarily know which one it'll be or when
it'll be, but it will happen. It almost surely will happen.
(42:30):
One of us will walk the other to the door
of heaven and to, um, Look forward to that day
with tears on her cheeks, but with hope in our
heart that as difficult as that can be, we we
prepare for that. Not that we live morbidly, but we
realize that, um, the clock is ticking. Uh, we have
(42:52):
fewer laps to run ahead of us than we have
behind us. And so does our spouse. And to, uh,
go into those older years hand in hand with our
hope in the Lord, knowing that, uh, one day he's
coming back and all the wrongs will be made. Right.
We get new bodies, and so we go forward, uh,
with groaning with hope hand in hand.
S1 (43:16):
I love that groaning with hope. Not two words you
usually couple together. But for the believer, again, this goes
back to something we said earlier, which is I love
the fact that we are so utterly countercultural, groaning with hope.
Who can do that? Unless Jesus is the center of
their life, their marriage, and their heart? Larry, I love
the book and I want to point out again, there's
so are so many pragmatics here. We didn't even touch
(43:37):
on your whole segment on retirement or friendship or dealing
with financial changes. That's what I love about the book,
is that in a typical pastor's heart's way, just then
that's who you are. You just ground this scripturally, but
that doesn't mean that you abandon the pragmatics that have
to be dealt with as well. So thank you on
so many levels for the book. I'm going to tell
my oh, it's a joy. The book again is called
(43:59):
A Seasoned Marriage Leaving the Gospel in the Middle Years
and Beyond. And this is where you are. I can't
recommend it enough. Just take great comfort and you can
hear this gentle man's heart out of the overflow of
the heart. The mouth speaks. And you've got an insight
into who Larry McCall is and the work that he's
done for so many years, particularly as director of Walking
Like Jesus Ministries. So it's all there in the information page.
(44:20):
Just check it out. In the market with Janet Parshall.
Click on the red box that says Program Details and Audio,
and it'll take you to the page to find all
the great information. Thank you Larry. Thank you friends. We'll
see you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.
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