April 21, 2025 • 44 mins
When a family member or friend is addicted to drugs or alcohol, the situation can feel hopeless and confusing. Dr. David Stoop will help those who love someone who is struggling to develop a plan of action by offering insight into brain chemistry and addiction, real-life ideas for encouraging healthy choices and guidance in how to help without enabling. Learn how to love someone well in the midst of this gripping disease.
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S1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
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(00:42):
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the broadcast. Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so
(01:30):
much for choosing to spend the next hour with us.
Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open.
But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy
the broadcast.
S2 (01:39):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:41):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:43):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:45):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S4 (01:49):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:08):
Hello, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you so much for spending the hour with us.
You know, I hope that this hour is going to
be a real encouragement to you. We have a problem
in this country. In case you hadn't noticed, we have
substance abuse problems, addiction we often refer to now the
opioid epidemic. That means categorically we do have a big
(02:29):
problem out there. Well, it's one thing for it to
be talked about in a embattled panel here in Washington, DC.
It's a whole nother thing to love somebody who's struggling
in this particular area. You've been listening on a regular basis,
and we have been looking forward to walking through all
of the books that Doctor Stephen Arterburn has authored as
part of his Arterburn wellness series. What Stephen does so
(02:52):
brilliantly is he picks a topic, and then he co-authors
with someone who's a particular expertise in an area. So
we've gone through all kinds of topics, and the one
we're going to pick up today is called Understanding and
loving a person with alcohol or drug addiction. And yep,
if you think for one minute this isn't a problem
inside the church, just like it's a problem outside the church.
(03:13):
Wake up Rip Van Winkle because you're sleeping. It is
a problem out there. So here's how we're going to
approach it differently. We're going to talk to a PhD
who's a psychologist, but he is also an ordained minister.
And I love that combination. He understands all the nuances
of human relationships and human behavior and the mind, all
the nuances of the mind. But he understands the Word
(03:33):
of God, and he understands the soul and that mind
body connection. And that's a powerful combination. Doctor David Stoop
is with us. He's a licensed clinical psychologist and family counselor,
an ordained minister with the master's and a doctorate in theology.
You often hear him because he co-hosts often on New
Life Live. He also founded and serves as the director
of the center for Family Therapy in Newport Beach, California.
(03:55):
He's on the executive board of the Ark. That's the
American Association of Christian Counselors. He also teaches at Fuller
Theological Seminary and co-authored the Life Recovery Bible. But he
co-authored with Stephen Arterburn, Understanding and Loving a Person with
Alcohol or Drug Addiction. When questions come and I know
they will. The number is 87754836758775483675. David, the warmest of welcomes.
(04:21):
I'm so glad to have you with us today.
S5 (04:23):
Oh, it's an honor to be with you, Janet. Always
looking forward to it.
S1 (04:27):
Oh. Thank you. Me too as well. Let me start
with some basics. So we make sure all of our
friends are on the same page. How do you know
whether you're just a, quote, casual user versus you've hit
the tripwire of what would clinically be called an addiction?
S5 (04:41):
Well, one of the the the simple definitions is that
if something gives you a high that then it's addictive.
And alcohol is a little different category because you have
to be able to ingest a lot of alcohol to
develop an addiction to it. But a drug like pot
or the opioids or any of those. It doesn't take
(05:03):
much to to start an addiction. And you think you're
okay until you try to stop, and then you can't
stop because you're starting to withdrawal. And the withdrawal is devastating.
And you realize all of a sudden you've got an addiction.
S1 (05:17):
You know, I praise God that over the last, I
would say, 30 years, there have been some giant leaps
forward about really understanding what you refer to as the
neurochemistry of the brain. And if I can let me
go to the drug aspect of this, because literally you
talk about Lego blocks and linkage and connectedness, there's connections
that are being built. Once you begin to start taking drugs,
(05:40):
can you talk to me about the neurochemistry of the brain?
S6 (05:42):
Well, you you.
S5 (05:44):
Have receptors that.
S6 (05:45):
Uh.
S5 (05:46):
Begin to crave the, the opioids or the, uh, it
could be even Adderall. I, I was surprised when I
had a recovery doctor say the Adderall is one of
the big, big issues that they have in treatment today.
But it's it's an addiction. And you create brain neural
(06:06):
pathways in the brain. But there's also receptors in the
brain that begin to crave it. And that's why alcohol
is different. There's only a certain percentage of us that
have the receptors that crave the alcohol. And if you
don't have those receptors, you can't get addicted. But you
can take somebody outside into the parking lot and give
them a drug. And 99% of the time they're going
(06:28):
to be addicted to it. If it's if it gives
a high.
S1 (06:31):
Wow. You know, let me flip that around and make
it a positive, which is does that not underscore that
we are in fact fearfully and wonderfully made? And this
three and a half pound organ that sits between our
ears is magnificent. And I really think as time goes by,
we're learning more and more and more. And I do
not think we've plumbed the depths of what we've yet
to learn about the brain, but the fact that it's
(06:51):
that sensitive to these receptors should be a wake up call. Now,
so let me ask you a question because you write
about this in the book. We often hear here in Washington,
particularly when they're struggling with establishing drug policies. And we
certainly see states in this area. Well, let's just decriminalize marijuana.
Will the forte will be we'll try to market it
as medical marijuana. And then the baby step is and
(07:14):
it'll just be recreational use. We often hear it described
here in Washington as a gateway drug in your work,
in your practice and what you teach and what you understand.
Is marijuana safe, or would you say that's the beginning
of starting to build those linkages in your brain?
S5 (07:29):
It's starting to build the linkages in your brain. Marijuana
is it gives you a high. So therefore all the
arguments about whether it's addictive or not are fade into
the woodwork because it is addictive. And I see families
that are dealing with this in their kids, their grown kids,
and they're they're just not motivated. It done research in
(07:51):
terms of how what part of the brain it affects.
It affects the prefrontal cortex, especially the left side, which
has to do with motivation and decision making. And people
who get addicted to pot lose their motivation and don't
make good decisions anymore. And we just opened Pandora's box
(08:11):
with legalizing it because we have enough trouble and problems
with alcohol being legal. We tried to outlaw it and
it didn't work. But why add another problem to the
whole addictive element and decriminalize it? I don't understand the
thinking behind that.
S1 (08:31):
Neither do I. And you just got a hearty Amen
on the East Coast of the United States. From what
you just said, I couldn't agree more. I want to
come back, and then I want to ask you a
question about this, because we're seeing so many states. And
by the way, you talk about a myriad of topics,
and I'm just and I'm going to start by talking
about drug, because several times you've correctly said there's a
little bit different approach here when we talk about alcohol.
So let me just set alcoholism aside for a minute.
(08:52):
We'll get back to that and we'll start with the
drug addiction. I love these books. I'm so glad that
that Stephen Arterburn has created the Arterburn Wellness series. They
run a myriad of topics, different challenges that people deal
with bipolar. The list goes on. This one deals with
alcohol and drug addiction. And you know what? You're not alone.
There are all kinds of people who struggle with this,
so we want to offer biblical, practical wisdom, empathy, boundaries,
(09:16):
compassion back after this. Did you know that Jesus appears
in every book of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation?
That's why I've chosen the Jesus Book as this month's
truth tool. Learn to read, understand, and apply God's Word
(09:38):
for yourself and how to know Jesus as never before.
As for your copy of the Jesus Book, when you
give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. What an important conversation and
(09:58):
how blessed do you not agree with me, how blessed
we are to be able to look at this from
a Christian perspective, a biblical centric perspective, as I like
to say. And God raises up wonderful teachers like Doctor
David Stoup, who's a psychologist. He's a family counselor. He's
written over 30 books, but he's also an ordained minister
and adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary and serves as
(10:18):
co-host of New Life Live! So he worked with Stephen
Arterburn on one of the series in the Arterburn wellness
series called Understanding and Loving a Person with Alcohol or
Drug Addiction. And that's our topic on the table this hour,
and we will take your questions on that at (877)Â 548-3675. So, David,
if I may, let me just go back to marijuana
for a minute and say, you know, we are talking
(10:39):
to people all across the country and in several of
the states where people are listening right now, there have
been referenda that have introduced the decriminalization of marijuana. As
we said, the Gateway Inn is to say we'll use
it for medical use, but then recreational follows immediately on
the heels of that. But paradoxically, the federal government has
never done this. If this were so good, would we not,
(11:01):
with the FDA and Health and Human Services and NIH
and Johns Hopkins and all the prestigious things that we
have here on the East Coast? If this were such
a great idea, wouldn't they all be pushing for this?
S5 (11:12):
Well, yeah, they recognize that it's not a great idea.
Even the medical marijuana is is a hoax because the
the cannabinoid part of the marijuana plant can be separated
out and it gets rid of the intoxicants, and it
has some great effect in terms of, of pain relief and,
and medicinal purposes. But it's, it's it's more expensive because
(11:36):
it has to be double processed. But there is that
element in the regular marijuana so that there is a
a healing process to it. But it's so minor compared
to what the cannabinoids or CBD would do if they
were to purchase that instead of the medical marijuana.
S1 (11:57):
Yes. Thank you for that. All right. So now I
want to talk about the new epidemic, the opioid epidemic
that for now, for the first time, we're seeing a
full court press with the federal government trying to do
something about this. But, David, this has been a stunning,
stunning story of American culture. You know, you think of
a heroin addict that would be shooting up in a
dark alley somewhere, and now you can get a prescription
(12:17):
drug that is the equivalent of heroin. And as a
result of that, we have created addicts. Now I'm in Washington,
so I don't want to do finger pointing. I'm looking
for solutions, but I don't know if it's doctors who
didn't know better, who didn't understand the neurochemistry that you're
talking about, or if it's big pharma who descend like
a plague of locusts on Capitol Hill as lobbyists that
(12:38):
have caused this. I don't know where the root is,
but when did it become fashionable to write a script
that we knew within 30 days somebody could become an addict?
S5 (12:47):
Well, it started with the Big Pharma because, uh, what
they Purdue Pharma is, is probably at the core of it.
And what they did was that they changed the estimate
of people with chronic pain from 25 million to 100 million.
And then they started to do some research with some
academic doctors who were sympathetic to what they were doing
(13:08):
because they got paid for it. And then they went
around and trained doctors in how to use the opioids to, uh,
to alleviate pain. And the early report was that it
would work for four hours and then, you know, it
would work for 12 hours. And so you'd prescribe it
every 12 hours, but it would only work for four hours.
(13:30):
And then people became desperate. And they've since modified that now.
And you can get as much as you want. My
wife had a knee replacement last fall, and when she
left the hospital, they gave her 100 oxycodone for pain.
A hundred of them. And when she she took him
for about a week, and then she forgot to take
(13:51):
him at night and forgot to take him in the
morning and started having withdrawals. And the physical therapist was
here at the house when she started the withdrawals and said,
you need something different. So she called the doctor and
they changed it to tramadol, which is a milder opioid,
and they gave her 60 of those. So I mean, they,
they overprescribe and then wonder why people get in trouble
(14:11):
with it. But the the education is increasing now to
where the pharmaceutical companies are not making the profits they
were making. And they're getting sued by states. And they
were just in Washington recently to to deal with Congress
on that. So they're trying now to start this in
other countries, the the chronic pain routine. And so other
(14:37):
countries are going to be in for the same kind
of problem that we're in for.
S1 (14:41):
Absolutely.
S5 (14:42):
China makes. China makes most of this stuff. And so
even fentanyl. Enough. Fentanyl is 100 times more potent than
morphine and 50 times more potent than heroin. And they
what they're doing now is they're starting to cut the
heroin with with fentanyl. And that's why there's so many deaths.
There's there's over 60,000 deaths in 2016 from opioid overdoses.
(15:06):
And my I had a grand nephew who died of
an overdose in, uh, in Ohio and in his county
the weekend he died from an overdose. 40 other people
died from an overdose. And they found that they had
cut the they had cut the heroin with fentanyl, which
stops you. It stops your breathing. And and you die
(15:28):
a peaceful death. But it's it's an unnecessary death. And
if it can be intervened in quicker enough, it can
be reversed. But most of the time it's not not caught,
but exactly. And there was an interesting book that was
out called Drug Drug Dealer MD that highlighted all of these.
The background for this and and how the doctors were
(15:51):
complicit in it. And I've heard doctors on TV explaining
the need for pain medication. And that's why they're doing
some research now to try to have painkillers kill the
pain at the site of the pain, rather than kill
the pain in the brain because the opioids kill the
pain in the brain. So the brain doesn't process the pain.
(16:13):
But they're developing some new medications, and I don't know
how long it will take them to develop it, where
it will deal with the pain at the source of
the pain, and therefore won't be addictive because the brain
is isn't involved in the process.
S1 (16:29):
Exactly. In fact, on that note, David, what I find
interesting is the new research that says, you know, even
after the pain is no longer at the site where
the patient was experiencing pain, these transmitters have been built
up into the brain. So the brain actually thinks you're
still feeling the pain when you're not. So therefore, the
desire for the drug remains, even if the pain really
isn't there to still be treated at the same level.
I want to bring this close to home. I want
(16:50):
to now talk about addiction in the family when we return, David.
Because what do we do? You have a loved one
who's doing this. And boy, I'll tell you there. I
know there's people within the sound of our voices who
are saying, I'm isolated, I'm alone, I'm embarrassed. I don't
dare tell anybody at church, hey, I can pray if
somebody's got cancer and I want to come to church
and say, my son's addicted to fentanyl. So how do
we begin to minister to people who struggle in this area? (877)Â 548-3675.
(17:14):
Doctor David Stoup is with us for the whole hour,
and I thank him for that. More after this. This
(17:39):
is in the market with Janet Parshall, and what a
privilege it is to spend time always with Doctor David Stoop.
He's a psychologist and family counselor. He's written over 30 books,
by the way. He is also the co-editor of the
Life Recovery Bible. Fabulous, fabulous Bible, by the way. I
strongly recommend it to you. And he's an adjunct professor
at Fuller Theological Seminary, co-host of New Life Live! The
(18:01):
list goes on. And as part of the Arterburn Wellness
series books, he was asked by Steve Arterburn to write
the book Understanding and Loving a Person with Alcohol or
Drug Addiction. And this is a big problem. 87754836758775483675. David,
let me take some questions at this point. And then
I want to hone in on on really why these
(18:23):
books are written in the first place. And that's how
we minister to those who suffer in these areas. (877)Â 548-3675. Kristen,
you're in Washington State. Welcome. And your question, please.
S7 (18:33):
Hi. Um, I was listening and I heard him talking
about oxycodone, and I'll be having hernia surgery in a
few months, and I'm breastfeeding, and they told me that
oxycodone is what they'd be prescribing. So I was just
wondering if there's an alternative I should ask for any advice.
S5 (18:52):
Well, there's. I'm not a medical doctor, so I can't
give you really good medical advice on on medication. Oxycodone
is probably the most potent of the prescribed drugs. And
you could get tramadol, which is about half the strength
of that. It depends on how you handle pain. And
(19:14):
I'm not sure what what that effect has in breastfeeding
as well because it enters your system. And then it
probably would enter into the milk as well. So I'd
be very careful. I would ask them for some alternatives
and suggest even that if tramadol would be an acceptable
substitute for when you go home, let them give you
whatever they're going to give you in the hospital. But
(19:35):
then when you go home, downgrade it so it's not
so potent.
S1 (19:40):
And I thank you. Kristen, let me just follow up.
We talked about this a bit ago, David, but I
think it's worth repeating. And that is, you know, if
Big Pharma is the juggernaut that's pushing all of this
in your wife, that was a perfect example. She gets
100 oxycodone. Why? Especially now? I mean, you'd have to
be living on the planet Mars to not know that
we're struggling in this country with an opioid epidemic. Wouldn't
(20:01):
the response immediately be to pull back, to lessen, to
look for alternatives, rather than to come out of the
gate as they did with your wife, with a hundred
of pills that would have created an attic by the
time she'd taken all of them?
S5 (20:12):
Well, she she only took a week's worth, so she
took about 20 of them. And then that was the
end of it. Uh, there there are some some small
towns in West Virginia. I was reading in the paper
just the other day from the the thing that's going
on in, in Congress with the pharmaceutical and drug distributing companies,
(20:35):
where there was there was almost 800 pills per, per
inhabitant of the, of the town prescribed annually, which nobody
needs that. It's an overprescription. And what happens is they
they often hit the streets then and become part of
the illegal drug system because people are willing to buy them. Uh,
(20:58):
and so, uh, it's just a complex problem, but you
would think that more doctors would be sensitive to it.
I think there's some legislation now that is limiting the
amounts that are being prescribed and being checked by the pharmacies. And, uh,
but you got to you got to get at the
(21:19):
root of the problem to really solve it.
S1 (21:21):
Yes, I absolutely agree. So, David, let me bring this
home because that's why these books are written in the
first place. If you have a loved one that you
suspect might have a problem, a bunch of questions. First
of all, what do we look for? Um, there's a
lot of sneakiness that goes on. There's a lot of
stuff that's done in the shadows. There's suddenly maybe things
are missing out of your dresser because you got to
(21:41):
buy some stuff off the street once the addiction is created.
There's a myriad of manifestations, so if you expect something
in that inner Geiger counter, as we like to call
it at our house says, something's not right here. What
do we look for? For the signs that there's a
possible addiction issue?
S5 (21:57):
Well, I would encourage you to not look at it
as this person has a problem, but to say that
the family has a problem because addiction is a family problem.
When we have a son who's a recovering addict, heroin addict,
he was he's been clean and sober now for almost
30 years, which is a miracle.
S1 (22:17):
In.
S5 (22:17):
Itself. But we tried to blame the changes in his
behavior on all kinds of things. We thought, you know,
we took him to different doctors. There wasn't much help
available back then. That was 45 years ago that he started,
and there weren't very many treatment programs and what treatment
programs they were, they were really kind of ridiculous, some
(22:38):
of them. Um, Uh, so we were kind of the
walking blind, but we we got into a program. Finally,
Steve sent us to a program that, uh, treated the
whole family. And my introduction was to to enter a
group as. And I'm a, I'm a psychologist, so I'm
entering a group as a participant, not as a leader,
(22:59):
which didn't feel that comfortable. But I.
S1 (23:01):
Said.
S5 (23:02):
I'm here because my son has a problem. And this
young fellow across from me, he just came off his seat.
He said, that's what my dad said when he first
came here. And he said, you're going to find out
you're here because you have a problem. And that was
the beginning of of the change in our focus. And
and if you can, the sooner you can change that
(23:22):
focus from this person has a problem. We got to
get to the root of it. And it can't be drugs.
It's got to be something else. Get educated as a family.
And one of the things we had to do, we
had to attend what's called speaker meetings. We went once
a week for six months, and it was the best
education I got that and better than anything I ever
got academically, because it was from people who had lived
(23:44):
through it and understood it and had beat it.
S8 (23:47):
Wow. Wow. Oh, wow.
S1 (23:50):
That's all I can say about that. How important and
how encouraging. And God bless your precious son. Doctor David
Stoop is with us. We are talking about how you
understand and love a person with alcohol or drug addiction. Oh,
there is so much to this topic. Let me take
a break. Come right back. Your questions on this at (877)Â 548-3675. Friends,
(24:27):
this is Janet Parshall, and I want to take a
moment to remind you that today's program is pre-recorded so
our phone lines aren't open. But I sure do appreciate
your spending the hour with us. And thanks so much
and enjoy the rest of the program. There's a sense
of anxiety in our country, and I know you feel
it too. As a partial partner, you can help reach
(24:48):
the world with the truth and peace found only in Christ.
And as a partial partner, you'll receive exclusive behind the
scenes information and benefits directly from me, keeping you up
to date on what's going on in our world. So
call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the
market with Janet parshall.org. We're visiting with Doctor David Stoop,
(25:10):
who's a licensed clinical psychologist and a family counselor. He's
also an ordained minister, and he has both a master's
and a doctorate in theology. He often co-hosts New Life Live.
We love that program, by the way. He also founded
and serves as the director of the center for Family
Therapy in Newport Beach, California, and serves on the executive
board of aacC, which is the American Association of Christian Counselors.
(25:33):
He is also the co-editor of the Life Recovery Bible.
He joins us today because Doctor Stephen Arterburn, excuse me,
Stephen Arterburn in a series of books called the Arterburn
Wellness series. Take a look. A very compassionate look at
various diagnoses that people struggle with and how we can
look at it both compassionately empathy, but also with practical
(25:53):
and biblical wisdom. So this book is called Understanding and
Loving a Person with Alcohol or Drug Addiction. David, I
got a lot of people online, but I want to
do a couple of things here real quick. So it's
a family issue. You got to change your thinking now,
the family individual who struggles with this area very often
there's a denial of a problem and there's a refusal
to get help. And it can create a very toxic
(26:15):
environment in the home. So you can sit down and
you can watch 60 minutes of intervention on a cable channel.
And just like that, 60 minutes later, all your problems
are done. It doesn't work like that in the real life.
So what do we do if you have a non-cooperative
person in your life who desperately needs help but refuses it?
S5 (26:31):
Well, I always tell people when they come to me,
you need to start going to speaker meetings and our
hospital that treats detox has a special meeting that's high quality.
There's other meetings that where people come and just talk.
You don't have to say anything. You just go in
and sit down and listen and get up and leave.
But take the whole family and take the take the
(26:52):
problem kid with you as well, because, uh, that's that's
where you get on the same page with what's going on,
and you begin to break through the denial process. Uh,
one of the things that when, when one of your
family members is, is addicted, it's like they've been taken
over by an alien, and you try to talk to
them and you're really talking to the addiction. You're not
(27:13):
talking to the person anymore. And so everything is designed
to protect the addiction and everything that they say, and
all their logic and everything. Their reasoning is designed to
protect the addiction. So you've got to get them in
front of some people who've been there, who've experienced it,
who have beat it, and who now can tell their
story in a way that is educational and inspiring and helpful.
S1 (27:35):
That's such a great word. Now, having said all of that,
can you say that the same counsel would apply if
the person that you love or live with is an alcoholic?
Are there any nuanced differences here?
S5 (27:46):
No difference. They would do the same thing. I've I've
worked with people who who are in that situation and
get them to go to the speaker meetings and then
to go to Al-Anon and to be upfront about it,
to say that they're going, don't hide it. You know,
say you're going and you're going to get help for
yourself and, and the other person, the alcoholic or the
addict will will resist it. But it's like it's the
(28:08):
beginning of the end, because they know that once you
get educated, their their days are numbered.
S1 (28:13):
Mhm. Thank you for that. All right. (877)Â 548-3675. An anonymous
in Ohio. Welcome. And your question please.
S9 (28:21):
Hi. I appreciate the comments you just made because my
daughter is an alcoholic. Um, she denied it or made
the comment, um, that she was a functioning alcoholic. She
is now in counseling after 24 years. I don't know
how to help because at this point she's very angry
and I get that. But the counselor has refused any, um.
S5 (28:47):
That's okay.
S9 (28:48):
The counselor. The counselor has refused any action by me. Meaning,
you know, participating in the counseling. So my question is,
when you I get Al-Anon, and unfortunately, I'm in a
small community, um, where there isn't one, um, when you're
calling speaker meetings. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
S5 (29:09):
Well, if you if you get a list of its
meetings from Alcoholics Anonymous from AA, they'll be there'll be
some meetings that say speaker meeting, which means you go
and you don't participate. You just go and listen and leave. Um,
but you've got to find a some kind of support,
either through your church or that has a Celebrate recovery
(29:29):
or life recovery groups or any kind of of support
for what you're dealing with. Uh, because there's there's a
double pain in in the misunderstanding. And not being able
to communicate. Adds to all the pain that you're experiencing.
And I understand that.
S1 (29:48):
Absolutely. Uh, anonymous. Lord bless you as you pursue help
for your family. And you gave real evidence to the
weariness of the soul. You can have physical weariness, but, boy,
you can have a soul weariness as well when you've
been battling this for so long. On that note, David,
you know I almost have to. I hate to ask
this question because to me it would be self-evident. You've
got all the initials in the world after your name,
(30:10):
and you're beautifully trained in both psychology but also in
theology as an ordained minister. And I know that there's
people in our ranks right now who are listening, who
are saying, well, you don't need any of that. You
just take this problem to the Lord and he will
heal you. Can you address that?
S5 (30:23):
Well, sometimes he does. And and yet he doesn't. He
doesn't rebuild character. When, when one of our kids got
into drugs, he got into drugs at age 13. And
he got started in the recovery at age 28 when
he stopped using drugs. He was 28 years old, but
he was a 13 year old emotionally and mentally and socially.
(30:44):
He had a lot of things to learn, and he
still has things to learn that he missed because he
missed all that during his growing up years. So whenever
the addiction begins, emotional growth and social growth and even
intellectual growth stops. And what happens after you? If God
delivers me and heals me, I would still want to
(31:05):
get into a recovery process because that's how I build rebuild.
The character that I lost when when I was addicted.
S1 (31:13):
Exactly. In fact, if I can linger on this for
a minute, is there a failure? David? And and I
say this with a passion for the church. I love
the church, but I think that sometimes we get stuck
in the quagmire of I don't know if they're cultural
misconceptions or or what they are, but, you know, if
you have a disease, if you've got a pancreas that
doesn't work. You take the insulin. That's great. I think
(31:34):
we need to understand that alcoholism and drug addiction are diseases.
They have rewired the brain that there is a physiological
manifestation of this. And if we don't recognize the physiology
behind this and we just try to say, well, it's
a sin issue and you just need to confess that
that may be part of it, but to deny it.
(31:54):
But we're not saying that with somebody who needs insulin
for their diabetes. So we're not making the transference here.
Talk to me about that.
S5 (32:02):
Well, if you want to know what alcoholism is, you
can look, look in Proverbs 23, the last six verses
or seven verses of the chapter, it describes what a
person does and what they go through and how helpless
they are. Now God can come into that and heal it.
And he does sometimes. He doesn't always do it. In fact,
it's probably rare that he does. There's there's all kinds
(32:26):
of things that the addict or alcoholic have done that
are sinful, just like all of us, but even more
so with the alcoholic addict. So you deal with the
sin issue, but then you also got to deal with
the character building issue. And when God heals me of
my addiction, he doesn't doesn't automatically inject into me character
development because that's something you learn over time. You have
(32:48):
to learn it over time. And I always think of
Saul in the Old Testament. He's he's healed of his
his timidness and his fearfulness in chapter 11 of First Samuel.
But he and it's an instant healing, and he never
nurtured it. He never developed the character. And so by
the time he gets to chapter 15, in first Samuel,
(33:10):
he's negated it all. And God removes the blessing and
removes the healing from him because he never he never
internalized the reality of what he had to learn as
a result of the healing.
S1 (33:22):
Thank you for that. David (877)Â 548-3675. Robert in Texas. Your
question please.
S10 (33:29):
Um, yes. Janet, thanks for my call. Um, so I
actually work in pain management, and so the people that
we see are many of them have had multiple surgeries,
multiple injuries are in chronic pain. And the issue we're
dealing with obviously now with the opioid crisis and all,
(33:51):
is that the medication levels are being dropped by insurance companies,
the CDC, all these things. And now you've got people
who were functioning, but now who are suffering, many of
whom are basically bedridden, um, and can't function now and
had jobs before. What do we do with these people?
(34:12):
I mean, I understand that we've got such a huge,
you know, overdose issue, but yet three quarters of those
overdoses are because of illicit drugs and not over-the-counter drugs.
I mean, what are we what are we going to
do with those people? Are we going to say so? sorry.
Too bad. You're just going to have to suffer. What?
What are we going to do?
S5 (34:34):
That's kind of what the government's saying is. You got to.
You got to suffer. There's other alternatives, and you're aware
of that if you work with pain. There's biofeedback and
other things that can be done and tested. And some
doctors will say that the opioids aren't that great at painkilling.
They're just great at numbing your your whole reality base.
(34:55):
But it is a problem. And if they were functioning
well on it, somehow the doctor has to fight for
them and get them to be able to maintain the
level that they were at and not let it increase.
There's no simple answer to it. You're right.
S8 (35:10):
Yeah.
S1 (35:11):
You know, it's interesting. My mother was a hospice nurse,
and it was interesting because there was this robust conversation
about pain management and end stages of life. And one
group said, well, we don't want to create addicts at
the end of life. And others said, wait a minute,
this is palliative care. You want them to not suffer
at the end of life. Don't worry about creating an addict.
So the pendulum went back and forth. My guess is
that culturally, we're going to see this pendulum go back
(35:32):
and forth because, as Robert rightly points out, there are
people with chronic pain. How do we manage their chronic
pain while making sure that we haven't rewired their brain,
where now their addiction supersedes their pain management? But at
the same time, we have to be careful, Robert, that
we're not creating a whole new community of addicts in
this country. And when David's wife gets 100 oxycodone after surgery,
(35:55):
we got a problem. Let me take a break. We'll
be right back. In the market with Janet parshall.org. I
(36:18):
tell you that because if you scroll down the first page,
you're going to see program details and audio. Click that on.
It'll take you to the page where you're going to
learn more about Doctor David Stoop, I've got a link
to his website and also a link to the book
Understanding and Loving a Person with Alcohol or Drug Addiction.
This is all part of the Arterburn Wellness series. These
are fabulous books. So tremendously helpful. Shannon, I thank you
(36:41):
for being so patient there in Minnesota. And your question please.
S9 (36:46):
Yes, I have.
S11 (36:47):
A mother who is addicted to opioids, opioids, and I
have been trying to help her for, I would say,
at least ten years. She has chronic pain. Um, she
doesn't seem to think that anything is wrong with her.
And I see her just going on a downward spiral,
and I'm just afraid she's she's going to lose her
(37:10):
and she doesn't want the help. So I guess for
myself and my family, what do I do?
S5 (37:17):
Well, we talk about interventions in the book, and the
intervention is something that needs to be planned by a
professional who does it because it's unique in how you
confront somebody. You confront them in love. And but before
you do that, I would, I would if you live
near her, I would take her to speaker meetings and
(37:38):
just have her get educated about the whole opioid epidemic
and what what the consequences are of it and what
the what the concerns are. And, uh, she's not going
to listen to you because it's the addiction that you're
talking to. And maybe if she can hear from somebody
who's been there and gotten through it and, and changed
(38:02):
their life back to normal, she may find a way
to change the way she treats her pain.
S1 (38:09):
Shannon, thank you so much for being with us. I
strongly recommend this book too, because it really walks you
through several steps on the issue of the intervention. And
I hate to hearken back to TV, but it becomes
a tutorial so often for so many people. So one
of the things you see in the intervention group is
here's the hard line, here's your absolutes. If this, then that.
Can't move, can't mitigate, can't change. Must be there. This
(38:30):
is a boundary in your work. In your practice. Do
you believe in that? If the intervention fails, if the
if the the loved one says, no, I'm not going
to get any help. Do we put in these boundaries?
Because for a lot of people, that's the most excruciating
thing they have to do. They love this person. They
don't want their their 17 year old on the street
because they're looking for their next hit of heroin. So
(38:50):
they're going to take him in again because they can't
stand the idea of him being out in the street,
and he might be killed out in the street. So
how do we deal with that?
S5 (38:58):
Well, I don't think you take the hard line because
I know some people who have failed at the intervention.
And then a month or two later, they choose to
go back into to go into treatment because it kind
of sinks in after a while. If it's done in love,
where people share the concern and they do it with
a loving attitude and it and it doesn't get them
into treatment immediately, it's in all likelihood we'll get them
(39:22):
into treatment later and it's not wasted effort.
S1 (39:26):
Yeah. Thank you for that. Ruth, thank you for joining
us from California. Your question please.
S12 (39:31):
Hi. So my husband actually is on a Norco, which
is one of the, um, things that is an opioid. And, um,
he was prescribed two, uh, pills a day. And, um,
they've taken five away now, five, five a month away. Um,
(39:52):
so they're starting to decrease it. My question is, he's
not addicted. This does help him. Not it doesn't even
take the pain away. But it does, um, relieve the pain,
make him functional. Um, but how can we make sure
that he's not, um, uh, becoming addicted or, uh, and, uh,
(40:13):
what else can we do? Um, because nothing else that
we've tried, uh, you know, the doctor has tried has worked. Um,
what suggestions would you make?
S5 (40:22):
Well, I would, I would work with the doctor on that. Uh,
if he goes through withdrawal when he cuts back, uh,
any kind of withdrawal, then that would indicate that there
was an addiction in process. And, uh, it's a tough
one because if it allows people to function and to
(40:45):
be productive in life, then it's not a bad thing.
But it's it's getting a blanket rejection because they don't
know how else to treat it as an epidemic is
to is to limit it and cut it back. And, uh,
we had another call with the same kind of concern.
And it's, it's they're a complex problem.
S1 (41:08):
Yeah. That's. Listen, if this were easy, we would have
figured it out a long time ago. We're struggling as
a culture on this. Don, thank you for joining us
from Illinois. Your question please.
S13 (41:17):
Hi. Good afternoon. Janet. Um, well, it goes along with
just pretty much an extension of what your last caller
brought up. And that is I've been on chronic, uh,
dealing with chronic pain for ten years from, uh, five
neck surgeries and two car accidents. And I find myself
in a situation where I get frustrated when I hear,
(41:39):
as I did a couple callers ago, uh, and great
that she's concerned, but that her husband's in chronic pain
and he's addicted to opioids. I think what we have
to do is understand first that there's a difference between
addiction and and using the painkiller as just that, letting
(42:03):
somebody get functional in society. Um, I think we're we're
jumping too much on that bandwagon.
S1 (42:10):
All right. Let, let let you made a statement. Let
me ask David to respond to it. Go ahead David.
S5 (42:15):
Well, I think you're right on. But how you do
that is a problem because there's a fine line between
being helped and then it becoming addiction and addiction. And
you don't find that out until you try to get
off of it. And there's got to be a lot
more said. And you've got to really work with your doctor,
I think, to keep keep the thing focused and keep
(42:39):
it on track so that it doesn't become an addiction.
But when they they set these new standards that you
can only have this much and it's not very it's
not very helpful and it's not very caring.
S1 (42:53):
Right. You know, someone made the statement earlier that they
thought there were more illegal drugs that were creating addicts
than pharmaceutical drugs. Actually the data. And believe me, Washington
is all over this right now says exactly the opposite.
So we are creating addicts in this country. And that's
the bigger problem. This is not the back alley stuff anymore.
This is somebody in a white coat writes your script.
You pick it up at your local pharmacy and boy,
(43:15):
just like that, the brain gets rewired. I want to
talk about the church's response to this. We need to
understand that this is a disease. David, what else can
we do as a church to respond?
S5 (43:26):
Well, I think getting people educated to what an addiction is,
what alcoholism is, is important. I had Steve taught a
class years ago in a church. We were where we
met each other. That Christian sitting next to you could
be an alcoholic. And it opened Pandora's box. You could
do the same kind of a class that Christian's sitting
next to. You could be an opioid addict, and you
(43:47):
wouldn't be far off the mark with a lot of people.
S1 (43:51):
That's an excellent, sensitive, discerning point, David. In other words,
when you go to church, you know, you hear me
say it a thousand times. Churches are hospitals for sin,
sick and broken souls, so you never know the problem
the person next to you has got. So let's let's
try to develop a little heart of empathy here and
understand that these are struggles. One of the things David
says in the book is prepare for a spiritual battle.
(44:12):
You bet you the enemy is still seeking to destroy,
and he'll use a myriad of ways to do it. David.
Excellent conversation. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time.
Hi friends, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and it is my sincere hope that you'll hear something
that will equip you, edify you, encourage you, enlighten you,
and then gently but consistently push you out into the
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Before you listen to this podcast, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Jesus Book,
(00:20):
written by pastor Jack Graham. I love it because he
really does recognize the fact that biblical literacy is declining,
and that a lot of people think that the Bible
is too complicated, that it's written for pastors or for scholars.
And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
And that book was written for every single one of us.
We just need a better way to know how to
study God's Word. And that's exactly what the Jesus Book
(00:42):
is all about. So when you give a gift of
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(01:04):
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the broadcast. Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so
(01:30):
much for choosing to spend the next hour with us.
Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open.
But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy
the broadcast.
S2 (01:39):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:41):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:43):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:45):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S4 (01:49):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:08):
Hello, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Thank you so much for spending the hour with us.
You know, I hope that this hour is going to
be a real encouragement to you. We have a problem
in this country. In case you hadn't noticed, we have
substance abuse problems, addiction we often refer to now the
opioid epidemic. That means categorically we do have a big
(02:29):
problem out there. Well, it's one thing for it to
be talked about in a embattled panel here in Washington, DC.
It's a whole nother thing to love somebody who's struggling
in this particular area. You've been listening on a regular basis,
and we have been looking forward to walking through all
of the books that Doctor Stephen Arterburn has authored as
part of his Arterburn wellness series. What Stephen does so
(02:52):
brilliantly is he picks a topic, and then he co-authors
with someone who's a particular expertise in an area. So
we've gone through all kinds of topics, and the one
we're going to pick up today is called Understanding and
loving a person with alcohol or drug addiction. And yep,
if you think for one minute this isn't a problem
inside the church, just like it's a problem outside the church.
(03:13):
Wake up Rip Van Winkle because you're sleeping. It is
a problem out there. So here's how we're going to
approach it differently. We're going to talk to a PhD
who's a psychologist, but he is also an ordained minister.
And I love that combination. He understands all the nuances
of human relationships and human behavior and the mind, all
the nuances of the mind. But he understands the Word
(03:33):
of God, and he understands the soul and that mind
body connection. And that's a powerful combination. Doctor David Stoop
is with us. He's a licensed clinical psychologist and family counselor,
an ordained minister with the master's and a doctorate in theology.
You often hear him because he co-hosts often on New
Life Live. He also founded and serves as the director
of the center for Family Therapy in Newport Beach, California.
(03:55):
He's on the executive board of the Ark. That's the
American Association of Christian Counselors. He also teaches at Fuller
Theological Seminary and co-authored the Life Recovery Bible. But he
co-authored with Stephen Arterburn, Understanding and Loving a Person with
Alcohol or Drug Addiction. When questions come and I know
they will. The number is 87754836758775483675. David, the warmest of welcomes.
(04:21):
I'm so glad to have you with us today.
S5 (04:23):
Oh, it's an honor to be with you, Janet. Always
looking forward to it.
S1 (04:27):
Oh. Thank you. Me too as well. Let me start
with some basics. So we make sure all of our
friends are on the same page. How do you know
whether you're just a, quote, casual user versus you've hit
the tripwire of what would clinically be called an addiction?
S5 (04:41):
Well, one of the the the simple definitions is that
if something gives you a high that then it's addictive.
And alcohol is a little different category because you have
to be able to ingest a lot of alcohol to
develop an addiction to it. But a drug like pot
or the opioids or any of those. It doesn't take
(05:03):
much to to start an addiction. And you think you're
okay until you try to stop, and then you can't
stop because you're starting to withdrawal. And the withdrawal is devastating.
And you realize all of a sudden you've got an addiction.
S1 (05:17):
You know, I praise God that over the last, I
would say, 30 years, there have been some giant leaps
forward about really understanding what you refer to as the
neurochemistry of the brain. And if I can let me
go to the drug aspect of this, because literally you
talk about Lego blocks and linkage and connectedness, there's connections
that are being built. Once you begin to start taking drugs,
(05:40):
can you talk to me about the neurochemistry of the brain?
S6 (05:42):
Well, you you.
S5 (05:44):
Have receptors that.
S6 (05:45):
Uh.
S5 (05:46):
Begin to crave the, the opioids or the, uh, it
could be even Adderall. I, I was surprised when I
had a recovery doctor say the Adderall is one of
the big, big issues that they have in treatment today.
But it's it's an addiction. And you create brain neural
(06:06):
pathways in the brain. But there's also receptors in the
brain that begin to crave it. And that's why alcohol
is different. There's only a certain percentage of us that
have the receptors that crave the alcohol. And if you
don't have those receptors, you can't get addicted. But you
can take somebody outside into the parking lot and give
them a drug. And 99% of the time they're going
(06:28):
to be addicted to it. If it's if it gives
a high.
S1 (06:31):
Wow. You know, let me flip that around and make
it a positive, which is does that not underscore that
we are in fact fearfully and wonderfully made? And this
three and a half pound organ that sits between our
ears is magnificent. And I really think as time goes by,
we're learning more and more and more. And I do
not think we've plumbed the depths of what we've yet
to learn about the brain, but the fact that it's
(06:51):
that sensitive to these receptors should be a wake up call. Now,
so let me ask you a question because you write
about this in the book. We often hear here in Washington,
particularly when they're struggling with establishing drug policies. And we
certainly see states in this area. Well, let's just decriminalize marijuana.
Will the forte will be we'll try to market it
as medical marijuana. And then the baby step is and
(07:14):
it'll just be recreational use. We often hear it described
here in Washington as a gateway drug in your work,
in your practice and what you teach and what you understand.
Is marijuana safe, or would you say that's the beginning
of starting to build those linkages in your brain?
S5 (07:29):
It's starting to build the linkages in your brain. Marijuana
is it gives you a high. So therefore all the
arguments about whether it's addictive or not are fade into
the woodwork because it is addictive. And I see families
that are dealing with this in their kids, their grown kids,
and they're they're just not motivated. It done research in
(07:51):
terms of how what part of the brain it affects.
It affects the prefrontal cortex, especially the left side, which
has to do with motivation and decision making. And people
who get addicted to pot lose their motivation and don't
make good decisions anymore. And we just opened Pandora's box
(08:11):
with legalizing it because we have enough trouble and problems
with alcohol being legal. We tried to outlaw it and
it didn't work. But why add another problem to the
whole addictive element and decriminalize it? I don't understand the
thinking behind that.
S1 (08:31):
Neither do I. And you just got a hearty Amen
on the East Coast of the United States. From what
you just said, I couldn't agree more. I want to
come back, and then I want to ask you a
question about this, because we're seeing so many states. And
by the way, you talk about a myriad of topics,
and I'm just and I'm going to start by talking
about drug, because several times you've correctly said there's a
little bit different approach here when we talk about alcohol.
So let me just set alcoholism aside for a minute.
(08:52):
We'll get back to that and we'll start with the
drug addiction. I love these books. I'm so glad that
that Stephen Arterburn has created the Arterburn Wellness series. They
run a myriad of topics, different challenges that people deal
with bipolar. The list goes on. This one deals with
alcohol and drug addiction. And you know what? You're not alone.
There are all kinds of people who struggle with this,
so we want to offer biblical, practical wisdom, empathy, boundaries,
(09:16):
compassion back after this. Did you know that Jesus appears
in every book of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation?
That's why I've chosen the Jesus Book as this month's
truth tool. Learn to read, understand, and apply God's Word
(09:38):
for yourself and how to know Jesus as never before.
As for your copy of the Jesus Book, when you
give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. What an important conversation and
(09:58):
how blessed do you not agree with me, how blessed
we are to be able to look at this from
a Christian perspective, a biblical centric perspective, as I like
to say. And God raises up wonderful teachers like Doctor
David Stoup, who's a psychologist. He's a family counselor. He's
written over 30 books, but he's also an ordained minister
and adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary and serves as
(10:18):
co-host of New Life Live! So he worked with Stephen
Arterburn on one of the series in the Arterburn wellness
series called Understanding and Loving a Person with Alcohol or
Drug Addiction. And that's our topic on the table this hour,
and we will take your questions on that at (877)Â 548-3675. So, David,
if I may, let me just go back to marijuana
for a minute and say, you know, we are talking
(10:39):
to people all across the country and in several of
the states where people are listening right now, there have
been referenda that have introduced the decriminalization of marijuana. As
we said, the Gateway Inn is to say we'll use
it for medical use, but then recreational follows immediately on
the heels of that. But paradoxically, the federal government has
never done this. If this were so good, would we not,
(11:01):
with the FDA and Health and Human Services and NIH
and Johns Hopkins and all the prestigious things that we
have here on the East Coast? If this were such
a great idea, wouldn't they all be pushing for this?
S5 (11:12):
Well, yeah, they recognize that it's not a great idea.
Even the medical marijuana is is a hoax because the
the cannabinoid part of the marijuana plant can be separated
out and it gets rid of the intoxicants, and it
has some great effect in terms of, of pain relief and,
and medicinal purposes. But it's, it's it's more expensive because
(11:36):
it has to be double processed. But there is that
element in the regular marijuana so that there is a
a healing process to it. But it's so minor compared
to what the cannabinoids or CBD would do if they
were to purchase that instead of the medical marijuana.
S1 (11:57):
Yes. Thank you for that. All right. So now I
want to talk about the new epidemic, the opioid epidemic
that for now, for the first time, we're seeing a
full court press with the federal government trying to do
something about this. But, David, this has been a stunning,
stunning story of American culture. You know, you think of
a heroin addict that would be shooting up in a
dark alley somewhere, and now you can get a prescription
(12:17):
drug that is the equivalent of heroin. And as a
result of that, we have created addicts. Now I'm in Washington,
so I don't want to do finger pointing. I'm looking
for solutions, but I don't know if it's doctors who
didn't know better, who didn't understand the neurochemistry that you're
talking about, or if it's big pharma who descend like
a plague of locusts on Capitol Hill as lobbyists that
(12:38):
have caused this. I don't know where the root is,
but when did it become fashionable to write a script
that we knew within 30 days somebody could become an addict?
S5 (12:47):
Well, it started with the Big Pharma because, uh, what
they Purdue Pharma is, is probably at the core of it.
And what they did was that they changed the estimate
of people with chronic pain from 25 million to 100 million.
And then they started to do some research with some
academic doctors who were sympathetic to what they were doing
(13:08):
because they got paid for it. And then they went
around and trained doctors in how to use the opioids to, uh,
to alleviate pain. And the early report was that it
would work for four hours and then, you know, it
would work for 12 hours. And so you'd prescribe it
every 12 hours, but it would only work for four hours.
(13:30):
And then people became desperate. And they've since modified that now.
And you can get as much as you want. My
wife had a knee replacement last fall, and when she
left the hospital, they gave her 100 oxycodone for pain.
A hundred of them. And when she she took him
for about a week, and then she forgot to take
(13:51):
him at night and forgot to take him in the
morning and started having withdrawals. And the physical therapist was
here at the house when she started the withdrawals and said,
you need something different. So she called the doctor and
they changed it to tramadol, which is a milder opioid,
and they gave her 60 of those. So I mean, they,
they overprescribe and then wonder why people get in trouble
(14:11):
with it. But the the education is increasing now to
where the pharmaceutical companies are not making the profits they
were making. And they're getting sued by states. And they
were just in Washington recently to to deal with Congress
on that. So they're trying now to start this in
other countries, the the chronic pain routine. And so other
(14:37):
countries are going to be in for the same kind
of problem that we're in for.
S1 (14:41):
Absolutely.
S5 (14:42):
China makes. China makes most of this stuff. And so
even fentanyl. Enough. Fentanyl is 100 times more potent than
morphine and 50 times more potent than heroin. And they
what they're doing now is they're starting to cut the
heroin with with fentanyl. And that's why there's so many deaths.
There's there's over 60,000 deaths in 2016 from opioid overdoses.
(15:06):
And my I had a grand nephew who died of
an overdose in, uh, in Ohio and in his county
the weekend he died from an overdose. 40 other people
died from an overdose. And they found that they had
cut the they had cut the heroin with fentanyl, which
stops you. It stops your breathing. And and you die
(15:28):
a peaceful death. But it's it's an unnecessary death. And
if it can be intervened in quicker enough, it can
be reversed. But most of the time it's not not caught,
but exactly. And there was an interesting book that was
out called Drug Drug Dealer MD that highlighted all of these.
The background for this and and how the doctors were
(15:51):
complicit in it. And I've heard doctors on TV explaining
the need for pain medication. And that's why they're doing
some research now to try to have painkillers kill the
pain at the site of the pain, rather than kill
the pain in the brain because the opioids kill the
pain in the brain. So the brain doesn't process the pain.
(16:13):
But they're developing some new medications, and I don't know
how long it will take them to develop it, where
it will deal with the pain at the source of
the pain, and therefore won't be addictive because the brain
is isn't involved in the process.
S1 (16:29):
Exactly. In fact, on that note, David, what I find
interesting is the new research that says, you know, even
after the pain is no longer at the site where
the patient was experiencing pain, these transmitters have been built
up into the brain. So the brain actually thinks you're
still feeling the pain when you're not. So therefore, the
desire for the drug remains, even if the pain really
isn't there to still be treated at the same level.
I want to bring this close to home. I want
(16:50):
to now talk about addiction in the family when we return, David.
Because what do we do? You have a loved one
who's doing this. And boy, I'll tell you there. I
know there's people within the sound of our voices who
are saying, I'm isolated, I'm alone, I'm embarrassed. I don't
dare tell anybody at church, hey, I can pray if
somebody's got cancer and I want to come to church
and say, my son's addicted to fentanyl. So how do
we begin to minister to people who struggle in this area? (877)Â 548-3675.
(17:14):
Doctor David Stoup is with us for the whole hour,
and I thank him for that. More after this. This
(17:39):
is in the market with Janet Parshall, and what a
privilege it is to spend time always with Doctor David Stoop.
He's a psychologist and family counselor. He's written over 30 books,
by the way. He is also the co-editor of the
Life Recovery Bible. Fabulous, fabulous Bible, by the way. I
strongly recommend it to you. And he's an adjunct professor
at Fuller Theological Seminary, co-host of New Life Live! The
(18:01):
list goes on. And as part of the Arterburn Wellness
series books, he was asked by Steve Arterburn to write
the book Understanding and Loving a Person with Alcohol or
Drug Addiction. And this is a big problem. 87754836758775483675. David,
let me take some questions at this point. And then
I want to hone in on on really why these
(18:23):
books are written in the first place. And that's how
we minister to those who suffer in these areas. (877)Â 548-3675. Kristen,
you're in Washington State. Welcome. And your question, please.
S7 (18:33):
Hi. Um, I was listening and I heard him talking
about oxycodone, and I'll be having hernia surgery in a
few months, and I'm breastfeeding, and they told me that
oxycodone is what they'd be prescribing. So I was just
wondering if there's an alternative I should ask for any advice.
S5 (18:52):
Well, there's. I'm not a medical doctor, so I can't
give you really good medical advice on on medication. Oxycodone
is probably the most potent of the prescribed drugs. And
you could get tramadol, which is about half the strength
of that. It depends on how you handle pain. And
(19:14):
I'm not sure what what that effect has in breastfeeding
as well because it enters your system. And then it
probably would enter into the milk as well. So I'd
be very careful. I would ask them for some alternatives
and suggest even that if tramadol would be an acceptable
substitute for when you go home, let them give you
whatever they're going to give you in the hospital. But
(19:35):
then when you go home, downgrade it so it's not
so potent.
S1 (19:40):
And I thank you. Kristen, let me just follow up.
We talked about this a bit ago, David, but I
think it's worth repeating. And that is, you know, if
Big Pharma is the juggernaut that's pushing all of this
in your wife, that was a perfect example. She gets
100 oxycodone. Why? Especially now? I mean, you'd have to
be living on the planet Mars to not know that
we're struggling in this country with an opioid epidemic. Wouldn't
(20:01):
the response immediately be to pull back, to lessen, to
look for alternatives, rather than to come out of the
gate as they did with your wife, with a hundred
of pills that would have created an attic by the
time she'd taken all of them?
S5 (20:12):
Well, she she only took a week's worth, so she
took about 20 of them. And then that was the
end of it. Uh, there there are some some small
towns in West Virginia. I was reading in the paper
just the other day from the the thing that's going
on in, in Congress with the pharmaceutical and drug distributing companies,
(20:35):
where there was there was almost 800 pills per, per
inhabitant of the, of the town prescribed annually, which nobody
needs that. It's an overprescription. And what happens is they
they often hit the streets then and become part of
the illegal drug system because people are willing to buy them. Uh,
(20:58):
and so, uh, it's just a complex problem, but you
would think that more doctors would be sensitive to it.
I think there's some legislation now that is limiting the
amounts that are being prescribed and being checked by the pharmacies. And, uh,
but you got to you got to get at the
(21:19):
root of the problem to really solve it.
S1 (21:21):
Yes, I absolutely agree. So, David, let me bring this
home because that's why these books are written in the
first place. If you have a loved one that you
suspect might have a problem, a bunch of questions. First
of all, what do we look for? Um, there's a
lot of sneakiness that goes on. There's a lot of
stuff that's done in the shadows. There's suddenly maybe things
are missing out of your dresser because you got to
(21:41):
buy some stuff off the street once the addiction is created.
There's a myriad of manifestations, so if you expect something
in that inner Geiger counter, as we like to call
it at our house says, something's not right here. What
do we look for? For the signs that there's a
possible addiction issue?
S5 (21:57):
Well, I would encourage you to not look at it
as this person has a problem, but to say that
the family has a problem because addiction is a family problem.
When we have a son who's a recovering addict, heroin addict,
he was he's been clean and sober now for almost
30 years, which is a miracle.
S1 (22:17):
In.
S5 (22:17):
Itself. But we tried to blame the changes in his
behavior on all kinds of things. We thought, you know,
we took him to different doctors. There wasn't much help
available back then. That was 45 years ago that he started,
and there weren't very many treatment programs and what treatment
programs they were, they were really kind of ridiculous, some
(22:38):
of them. Um, Uh, so we were kind of the
walking blind, but we we got into a program. Finally,
Steve sent us to a program that, uh, treated the
whole family. And my introduction was to to enter a
group as. And I'm a, I'm a psychologist, so I'm
entering a group as a participant, not as a leader,
(22:59):
which didn't feel that comfortable. But I.
S1 (23:01):
Said.
S5 (23:02):
I'm here because my son has a problem. And this
young fellow across from me, he just came off his seat.
He said, that's what my dad said when he first
came here. And he said, you're going to find out
you're here because you have a problem. And that was
the beginning of of the change in our focus. And
and if you can, the sooner you can change that
(23:22):
focus from this person has a problem. We got to
get to the root of it. And it can't be drugs.
It's got to be something else. Get educated as a family.
And one of the things we had to do, we
had to attend what's called speaker meetings. We went once
a week for six months, and it was the best
education I got that and better than anything I ever
got academically, because it was from people who had lived
(23:44):
through it and understood it and had beat it.
S8 (23:47):
Wow. Wow. Oh, wow.
S1 (23:50):
That's all I can say about that. How important and
how encouraging. And God bless your precious son. Doctor David
Stoop is with us. We are talking about how you
understand and love a person with alcohol or drug addiction. Oh,
there is so much to this topic. Let me take
a break. Come right back. Your questions on this at (877)Â 548-3675. Friends,
(24:27):
this is Janet Parshall, and I want to take a
moment to remind you that today's program is pre-recorded so
our phone lines aren't open. But I sure do appreciate
your spending the hour with us. And thanks so much
and enjoy the rest of the program. There's a sense
of anxiety in our country, and I know you feel
it too. As a partial partner, you can help reach
(24:48):
the world with the truth and peace found only in Christ.
And as a partial partner, you'll receive exclusive behind the
scenes information and benefits directly from me, keeping you up
to date on what's going on in our world. So
call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the
market with Janet parshall.org. We're visiting with Doctor David Stoop,
(25:10):
who's a licensed clinical psychologist and a family counselor. He's
also an ordained minister, and he has both a master's
and a doctorate in theology. He often co-hosts New Life Live.
We love that program, by the way. He also founded
and serves as the director of the center for Family
Therapy in Newport Beach, California, and serves on the executive
board of aacC, which is the American Association of Christian Counselors.
(25:33):
He is also the co-editor of the Life Recovery Bible.
He joins us today because Doctor Stephen Arterburn, excuse me,
Stephen Arterburn in a series of books called the Arterburn
Wellness series. Take a look. A very compassionate look at
various diagnoses that people struggle with and how we can
look at it both compassionately empathy, but also with practical
(25:53):
and biblical wisdom. So this book is called Understanding and
Loving a Person with Alcohol or Drug Addiction. David, I
got a lot of people online, but I want to
do a couple of things here real quick. So it's
a family issue. You got to change your thinking now,
the family individual who struggles with this area very often
there's a denial of a problem and there's a refusal
to get help. And it can create a very toxic
(26:15):
environment in the home. So you can sit down and
you can watch 60 minutes of intervention on a cable channel.
And just like that, 60 minutes later, all your problems
are done. It doesn't work like that in the real life.
So what do we do if you have a non-cooperative
person in your life who desperately needs help but refuses it?
S5 (26:31):
Well, I always tell people when they come to me,
you need to start going to speaker meetings and our
hospital that treats detox has a special meeting that's high quality.
There's other meetings that where people come and just talk.
You don't have to say anything. You just go in
and sit down and listen and get up and leave.
But take the whole family and take the take the
(26:52):
problem kid with you as well, because, uh, that's that's
where you get on the same page with what's going on,
and you begin to break through the denial process. Uh,
one of the things that when, when one of your
family members is, is addicted, it's like they've been taken
over by an alien, and you try to talk to
them and you're really talking to the addiction. You're not
(27:13):
talking to the person anymore. And so everything is designed
to protect the addiction and everything that they say, and
all their logic and everything. Their reasoning is designed to
protect the addiction. So you've got to get them in
front of some people who've been there, who've experienced it,
who have beat it, and who now can tell their
story in a way that is educational and inspiring and helpful.
S1 (27:35):
That's such a great word. Now, having said all of that,
can you say that the same counsel would apply if
the person that you love or live with is an alcoholic?
Are there any nuanced differences here?
S5 (27:46):
No difference. They would do the same thing. I've I've
worked with people who who are in that situation and
get them to go to the speaker meetings and then
to go to Al-Anon and to be upfront about it,
to say that they're going, don't hide it. You know,
say you're going and you're going to get help for
yourself and, and the other person, the alcoholic or the
addict will will resist it. But it's like it's the
(28:08):
beginning of the end, because they know that once you
get educated, their their days are numbered.
S1 (28:13):
Mhm. Thank you for that. All right. (877)Â 548-3675. An anonymous
in Ohio. Welcome. And your question please.
S9 (28:21):
Hi. I appreciate the comments you just made because my
daughter is an alcoholic. Um, she denied it or made
the comment, um, that she was a functioning alcoholic. She
is now in counseling after 24 years. I don't know
how to help because at this point she's very angry
and I get that. But the counselor has refused any, um.
S5 (28:47):
That's okay.
S9 (28:48):
The counselor. The counselor has refused any action by me. Meaning,
you know, participating in the counseling. So my question is,
when you I get Al-Anon, and unfortunately, I'm in a
small community, um, where there isn't one, um, when you're
calling speaker meetings. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
S5 (29:09):
Well, if you if you get a list of its
meetings from Alcoholics Anonymous from AA, they'll be there'll be
some meetings that say speaker meeting, which means you go
and you don't participate. You just go and listen and leave. Um,
but you've got to find a some kind of support,
either through your church or that has a Celebrate recovery
(29:29):
or life recovery groups or any kind of of support
for what you're dealing with. Uh, because there's there's a
double pain in in the misunderstanding. And not being able
to communicate. Adds to all the pain that you're experiencing.
And I understand that.
S1 (29:48):
Absolutely. Uh, anonymous. Lord bless you as you pursue help
for your family. And you gave real evidence to the
weariness of the soul. You can have physical weariness, but, boy,
you can have a soul weariness as well when you've
been battling this for so long. On that note, David,
you know I almost have to. I hate to ask
this question because to me it would be self-evident. You've
got all the initials in the world after your name,
(30:10):
and you're beautifully trained in both psychology but also in
theology as an ordained minister. And I know that there's
people in our ranks right now who are listening, who
are saying, well, you don't need any of that. You
just take this problem to the Lord and he will
heal you. Can you address that?
S5 (30:23):
Well, sometimes he does. And and yet he doesn't. He
doesn't rebuild character. When, when one of our kids got
into drugs, he got into drugs at age 13. And
he got started in the recovery at age 28 when
he stopped using drugs. He was 28 years old, but
he was a 13 year old emotionally and mentally and socially.
(30:44):
He had a lot of things to learn, and he
still has things to learn that he missed because he
missed all that during his growing up years. So whenever
the addiction begins, emotional growth and social growth and even
intellectual growth stops. And what happens after you? If God
delivers me and heals me, I would still want to
(31:05):
get into a recovery process because that's how I build rebuild.
The character that I lost when when I was addicted.
S1 (31:13):
Exactly. In fact, if I can linger on this for
a minute, is there a failure? David? And and I
say this with a passion for the church. I love
the church, but I think that sometimes we get stuck
in the quagmire of I don't know if they're cultural
misconceptions or or what they are, but, you know, if
you have a disease, if you've got a pancreas that
doesn't work. You take the insulin. That's great. I think
(31:34):
we need to understand that alcoholism and drug addiction are diseases.
They have rewired the brain that there is a physiological
manifestation of this. And if we don't recognize the physiology
behind this and we just try to say, well, it's
a sin issue and you just need to confess that
that may be part of it, but to deny it.
(31:54):
But we're not saying that with somebody who needs insulin
for their diabetes. So we're not making the transference here.
Talk to me about that.
S5 (32:02):
Well, if you want to know what alcoholism is, you
can look, look in Proverbs 23, the last six verses
or seven verses of the chapter, it describes what a
person does and what they go through and how helpless
they are. Now God can come into that and heal it.
And he does sometimes. He doesn't always do it. In fact,
it's probably rare that he does. There's there's all kinds
(32:26):
of things that the addict or alcoholic have done that
are sinful, just like all of us, but even more
so with the alcoholic addict. So you deal with the
sin issue, but then you also got to deal with
the character building issue. And when God heals me of
my addiction, he doesn't doesn't automatically inject into me character
development because that's something you learn over time. You have
(32:48):
to learn it over time. And I always think of
Saul in the Old Testament. He's he's healed of his
his timidness and his fearfulness in chapter 11 of First Samuel.
But he and it's an instant healing, and he never
nurtured it. He never developed the character. And so by
the time he gets to chapter 15, in first Samuel,
(33:10):
he's negated it all. And God removes the blessing and
removes the healing from him because he never he never
internalized the reality of what he had to learn as
a result of the healing.
S1 (33:22):
Thank you for that. David (877)Â 548-3675. Robert in Texas. Your
question please.
S10 (33:29):
Um, yes. Janet, thanks for my call. Um, so I
actually work in pain management, and so the people that
we see are many of them have had multiple surgeries,
multiple injuries are in chronic pain. And the issue we're
dealing with obviously now with the opioid crisis and all,
(33:51):
is that the medication levels are being dropped by insurance companies,
the CDC, all these things. And now you've got people
who were functioning, but now who are suffering, many of
whom are basically bedridden, um, and can't function now and
had jobs before. What do we do with these people?
(34:12):
I mean, I understand that we've got such a huge,
you know, overdose issue, but yet three quarters of those
overdoses are because of illicit drugs and not over-the-counter drugs.
I mean, what are we what are we going to
do with those people? Are we going to say so? sorry.
Too bad. You're just going to have to suffer. What?
What are we going to do?
S5 (34:34):
That's kind of what the government's saying is. You got to.
You got to suffer. There's other alternatives, and you're aware
of that if you work with pain. There's biofeedback and
other things that can be done and tested. And some
doctors will say that the opioids aren't that great at painkilling.
They're just great at numbing your your whole reality base.
(34:55):
But it is a problem. And if they were functioning
well on it, somehow the doctor has to fight for
them and get them to be able to maintain the
level that they were at and not let it increase.
There's no simple answer to it. You're right.
S8 (35:10):
Yeah.
S1 (35:11):
You know, it's interesting. My mother was a hospice nurse,
and it was interesting because there was this robust conversation
about pain management and end stages of life. And one
group said, well, we don't want to create addicts at
the end of life. And others said, wait a minute,
this is palliative care. You want them to not suffer
at the end of life. Don't worry about creating an addict.
So the pendulum went back and forth. My guess is
that culturally, we're going to see this pendulum go back
(35:32):
and forth because, as Robert rightly points out, there are
people with chronic pain. How do we manage their chronic
pain while making sure that we haven't rewired their brain,
where now their addiction supersedes their pain management? But at
the same time, we have to be careful, Robert, that
we're not creating a whole new community of addicts in
this country. And when David's wife gets 100 oxycodone after surgery,
(35:55):
we got a problem. Let me take a break. We'll
be right back. In the market with Janet parshall.org. I
(36:18):
tell you that because if you scroll down the first page,
you're going to see program details and audio. Click that on.
It'll take you to the page where you're going to
learn more about Doctor David Stoop, I've got a link
to his website and also a link to the book
Understanding and Loving a Person with Alcohol or Drug Addiction.
This is all part of the Arterburn Wellness series. These
are fabulous books. So tremendously helpful. Shannon, I thank you
(36:41):
for being so patient there in Minnesota. And your question please.
S9 (36:46):
Yes, I have.
S11 (36:47):
A mother who is addicted to opioids, opioids, and I
have been trying to help her for, I would say,
at least ten years. She has chronic pain. Um, she
doesn't seem to think that anything is wrong with her.
And I see her just going on a downward spiral,
and I'm just afraid she's she's going to lose her
(37:10):
and she doesn't want the help. So I guess for
myself and my family, what do I do?
S5 (37:17):
Well, we talk about interventions in the book, and the
intervention is something that needs to be planned by a
professional who does it because it's unique in how you
confront somebody. You confront them in love. And but before
you do that, I would, I would if you live
near her, I would take her to speaker meetings and
(37:38):
just have her get educated about the whole opioid epidemic
and what what the consequences are of it and what
the what the concerns are. And, uh, she's not going
to listen to you because it's the addiction that you're
talking to. And maybe if she can hear from somebody
who's been there and gotten through it and, and changed
(38:02):
their life back to normal, she may find a way
to change the way she treats her pain.
S1 (38:09):
Shannon, thank you so much for being with us. I
strongly recommend this book too, because it really walks you
through several steps on the issue of the intervention. And
I hate to hearken back to TV, but it becomes
a tutorial so often for so many people. So one
of the things you see in the intervention group is
here's the hard line, here's your absolutes. If this, then that.
Can't move, can't mitigate, can't change. Must be there. This
(38:30):
is a boundary in your work. In your practice. Do
you believe in that? If the intervention fails, if the
if the the loved one says, no, I'm not going
to get any help. Do we put in these boundaries?
Because for a lot of people, that's the most excruciating
thing they have to do. They love this person. They
don't want their their 17 year old on the street
because they're looking for their next hit of heroin. So
(38:50):
they're going to take him in again because they can't
stand the idea of him being out in the street,
and he might be killed out in the street. So
how do we deal with that?
S5 (38:58):
Well, I don't think you take the hard line because
I know some people who have failed at the intervention.
And then a month or two later, they choose to
go back into to go into treatment because it kind
of sinks in after a while. If it's done in love,
where people share the concern and they do it with
a loving attitude and it and it doesn't get them
into treatment immediately, it's in all likelihood we'll get them
(39:22):
into treatment later and it's not wasted effort.
S1 (39:26):
Yeah. Thank you for that. Ruth, thank you for joining
us from California. Your question please.
S12 (39:31):
Hi. So my husband actually is on a Norco, which
is one of the, um, things that is an opioid. And, um,
he was prescribed two, uh, pills a day. And, um,
they've taken five away now, five, five a month away. Um,
(39:52):
so they're starting to decrease it. My question is, he's
not addicted. This does help him. Not it doesn't even
take the pain away. But it does, um, relieve the pain,
make him functional. Um, but how can we make sure
that he's not, um, uh, becoming addicted or, uh, and, uh,
(40:13):
what else can we do? Um, because nothing else that
we've tried, uh, you know, the doctor has tried has worked. Um,
what suggestions would you make?
S5 (40:22):
Well, I would, I would work with the doctor on that. Uh,
if he goes through withdrawal when he cuts back, uh,
any kind of withdrawal, then that would indicate that there
was an addiction in process. And, uh, it's a tough
one because if it allows people to function and to
(40:45):
be productive in life, then it's not a bad thing.
But it's it's getting a blanket rejection because they don't
know how else to treat it as an epidemic is
to is to limit it and cut it back. And, uh,
we had another call with the same kind of concern.
And it's, it's they're a complex problem.
S1 (41:08):
Yeah. That's. Listen, if this were easy, we would have
figured it out a long time ago. We're struggling as
a culture on this. Don, thank you for joining us
from Illinois. Your question please.
S13 (41:17):
Hi. Good afternoon. Janet. Um, well, it goes along with
just pretty much an extension of what your last caller
brought up. And that is I've been on chronic, uh,
dealing with chronic pain for ten years from, uh, five
neck surgeries and two car accidents. And I find myself
in a situation where I get frustrated when I hear,
(41:39):
as I did a couple callers ago, uh, and great
that she's concerned, but that her husband's in chronic pain
and he's addicted to opioids. I think what we have
to do is understand first that there's a difference between
addiction and and using the painkiller as just that, letting
(42:03):
somebody get functional in society. Um, I think we're we're
jumping too much on that bandwagon.
S1 (42:10):
All right. Let, let let you made a statement. Let
me ask David to respond to it. Go ahead David.
S5 (42:15):
Well, I think you're right on. But how you do
that is a problem because there's a fine line between
being helped and then it becoming addiction and addiction. And
you don't find that out until you try to get
off of it. And there's got to be a lot
more said. And you've got to really work with your doctor,
I think, to keep keep the thing focused and keep
(42:39):
it on track so that it doesn't become an addiction.
But when they they set these new standards that you
can only have this much and it's not very it's
not very helpful and it's not very caring.
S1 (42:53):
Right. You know, someone made the statement earlier that they
thought there were more illegal drugs that were creating addicts
than pharmaceutical drugs. Actually the data. And believe me, Washington
is all over this right now says exactly the opposite.
So we are creating addicts in this country. And that's
the bigger problem. This is not the back alley stuff anymore.
This is somebody in a white coat writes your script.
You pick it up at your local pharmacy and boy,
(43:15):
just like that, the brain gets rewired. I want to
talk about the church's response to this. We need to
understand that this is a disease. David, what else can
we do as a church to respond?
S5 (43:26):
Well, I think getting people educated to what an addiction is,
what alcoholism is, is important. I had Steve taught a
class years ago in a church. We were where we
met each other. That Christian sitting next to you could
be an alcoholic. And it opened Pandora's box. You could
do the same kind of a class that Christian's sitting
next to. You could be an opioid addict, and you
(43:47):
wouldn't be far off the mark with a lot of people.
S1 (43:51):
That's an excellent, sensitive, discerning point, David. In other words,
when you go to church, you know, you hear me
say it a thousand times. Churches are hospitals for sin,
sick and broken souls, so you never know the problem
the person next to you has got. So let's let's
try to develop a little heart of empathy here and
understand that these are struggles. One of the things David
says in the book is prepare for a spiritual battle.
(44:12):
You bet you the enemy is still seeking to destroy,
and he'll use a myriad of ways to do it. David.
Excellent conversation. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time.
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