June 9, 2025 • 44 mins
Join us to hear a story of the God who relentlessly pursues. This is a story that reveals what the church does not often do well regarding sexual sin or identity struggles. More importantly, it’s a story of how the church can be far better equipped to live in love and truth through strength and compassion, inviting broken people into genuine and growing relationships with Jesus and His authentic community. The church can become a vibrant, well-prepared “teaching hospital” for all the issues and brokenness embraced today by hurting people craving belonging and purpose, love and meaning.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
send it right off to you as my way of
saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
you can go online to in the market with Janet
(01:24):
Parshall and you're also on the website, consider becoming a
partial partner. Those are people who give every single month
at a level of their own choosing. You always get
the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get
a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio
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or the website in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider
(01:46):
becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool.
Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:57):
Americans worshipping government over God.
S5 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S6 (02:03):
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:07):
With the Russians.
S1 (02:21):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
I am so glad we're going to spend the hour together. And,
you know, I don't know about you, but some of
my favorite conversations are the kind where I get to
hear somebody tell me, tell us together what Christ has
done in for and through them. That's so powerful, by
the way. Because if Christ can do it in for
and through someone else, he can do the same thing
(02:43):
in your life as well. Old things can pass away,
all things can become new, and we become new creatures
in Jesus Christ. And just like that long list that
Paul articulates in the scripture and such were some of you,
there's such power in that word were. That's because through
the power of King Jesus, things can change dramatically. And
(03:03):
that's what we're going to talk about this hour. And
let me just put out a question on the table.
So what if you're asking yourself, am I gay? Does
it mean you're born that way? Does it mean you
don't have a choice? Does it mean that's it forevermore?
Should you just find a group of people that affirm
that decision? Or is there something else, something more, something deeper?
That's what we're going to talk about. In fact, the
conversation is going to emanate from a book called am
(03:24):
I Gay? Coming out of Cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus
identity into authentic faith in Jesus. And our teacher is
going to be Gary Ingram. Let me tell you about Gary.
I'm good. Glad to have him back on the program again.
Gary and Melissa founded Love and Truth Network back in 2013.
That's a national ministry that equips pastors and Christian leaders
(03:44):
to develop environments of both safety and transformation, restoring relational
and sexual wholeness, as well as biblical identity. That last
part being so very important, but prior to launching Love
and Truth Network, Gary served as pastor of Soul Care
Ministries on a pastoral team at a large church in
upstate New York for 12 years. Gary and Melissa have
(04:05):
such a powerful story. They came out themselves of identity confusion.
Met in 2004, married in 2007, have two boys. They
live in Phoenix, where Melissa runs her Christian counseling practice
and homeschools their children, while Gary serves as Executive Director
of Love and Truth Network. And if you read Gary's bio,
he loves to end it by saying life is full.
God is far beyond good. Can I get an amen
(04:26):
to that, Gary? What a joy to have you back
on the program again. Thank you. Our conversations are always
so relevant and you really are a representative of. Out
of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks and
you start this book by telling your story. In fact,
at the very beginning, you really challenge us to talk
about what is authentic Christianity and what is not. So
talk to me about and thank you again for going
(04:49):
back to the beginning. I oftentimes when I ask people
a question about the beginning of their Pilgrim's Progress. If
they go, oh, not again! I don't want to tell
it again, but I have a funny feeling that's not
the case for you, because it's so germane to the
ministry God has called you to. Am I right?
S7 (05:03):
Well, it certainly is. Thanks for having me on again, Janet.
It's always great to be with you. And and also,
my very first chapter is about my mom and dad's life.
So just to give a little bit of, uh, of
a snippet about them and kind of what they brought
into their parenting, because really, we are products of of
those that have gone before us and certainly of our,
our parents, um, and oftentimes even grandparents. So I think
(05:24):
it's important that we have an understanding of where both the,
the wholeness as well as the brokenness can stem from
in our lineage.
S1 (05:32):
Um, so what was significant about your mom and dad
in terms of their background and what role it played
in your life?
S7 (05:39):
Well, just a lot of relational brokenness, I think, with
my mom and dad individually in their own families. My
mom's father died when she was 5 or 6 years old.
My dad's mother left, and my dad would be, uh, what, uh,
you know, about 100 years old. Now, if he had
lived and and so, um, back in that day when,
you know, your mom or dad leaves and divorce happens,
(05:59):
it was really pretty scandalous. Uh, today it's a yawn, sadly.
But a lot of times the kids are looked down upon, even,
you know, back in that day, too. So there was
just a lot of relational fracture, brokenness and, um, and
a lot of confusion in their own lives. They kind
of came together, didn't fall madly in love, but just
felt like this will do. Well, it did for 68
years before my dad passed away, um, at 88 years
(06:22):
of age. And my mom, um, five years later. But
they did, um, they were rooted in Christianity later on
in life. They brought me up in that. But it
was really the form of Christianity that was very rules based,
very heavy handed, a lot of do's and don'ts, not
a lot about relationship. Um, not certainly. No. Um, getting
into the, uh, underneath the lid and looking at, hey,
(06:45):
why are why are we drawn to these things? Not
just because of sin and the flesh, but what particularly
is drawing me into areas that I really don't want
to act out on as a Christian? Um, but yet
I feel compelled to. I mean, there was just none
of that growing up. And so to kind of left
to yourself, to sort of figure those things out, um,
I'd say that was a lot of the, the impact
(07:06):
that my parents brought into my upbringing.
S1 (07:08):
Yeah. You write in the book, for my parents, fun
was a waste of time. As such, our home was
a place rife with rules and lacking in Christian virtues
like compassion, patience, love, and kindness. Is it any surprise
my siblings and I spent as much time away from
the house as possible? And then you go on to say,
walks in the woods, fishing, exploring, among other mischievous activities.
For me, mischief usually included something of a sexual nature
(07:30):
searching out pornography or sneaking off with neighborhood kids that
we were supposed to stay away from. Isn't that interesting?
Why do you think, given that, and again, I want
to thank you for the transparency so many other people
can find healing when they hear again how someone else
has been healed through the power of God's love. But
why do you think out of all. It's one thing
to walk through the woods. It's another to say, I'm
going to look out porn. Why? Why that fishing bait?
(07:53):
What drew you?
S7 (07:54):
Well, it's a great, great question. And I really grew
up in an environment that most boys would just think, oh, my.
I mean, this is incredible. But of course, you only
know what you have. You don't know. I mean, I
look back on some of that and think, wow, I
could have had a much better experience. But the problem is,
is I was feeling so empty, so lonely at such
an early age. I remember, you know, around the age
(08:15):
of 5 or 6, just feeling profoundly empty and lonely and,
and because my parents didn't even have an awareness, my
dad in particular, that there was really anything to fill up.
I mean, it just kids kind of did what you
told them to do. They were they were almost kind
of treated like property. And and my dad was not
a bad man at all. Um, I grew very close
to him later on in life, and I love my dad, but, um,
(08:39):
growing up with him, it was just a very different world.
But I think it was the emptiness and that gnawing
desire for something and pornography and sexual sin becomes this
powerful counterfeit for authentic intimacy. I think it's one of
the reasons, whether it's as kids or teens or as adults,
that we get hooked on sexual, whether it's pornography or
(08:59):
or hookup culture or whatever. We do get hooked on
that because we are so empty and so lonely and
so raw.
S1 (09:07):
Yeah, well. Well said. There are two things in the
subtitle I want to point out. Obviously, the title catch
your attention. Am I gay? But listen to what the
subtitle is. Again, coming out of cultural Christianity, that in
and of itself is a huge topic and LGBTQ plus
identity into. Here's the other part of the subtitle that's
so important authentic Faith in Jesus. So as we continue
(09:27):
our conversation, we're going to learn to draw the distinction
between cultural Christianity and authentic faith in Jesus. Gary Ingram
is with us for the entire hour. Again, his brand
new book is called am I game? Lots to talk about.
We'll continue right after this. The questions that matter most
(09:57):
often come while watching a sunset, or listening to music,
or looking into the night sky. That's why I've chosen.
Have you ever wondered, as this month's truth tool? God
draws us to himself through a sense of awe and wonder,
and this book will help you discover how. As for
your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you'd give
a gift of any amount in the market? Call eight 7758.
That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with
(10:20):
Janet Parshall. Gary Ingraham is with us. He's the founder
and executive director of Love and Truth Network. That's a
ministry he founded along with his wife Melissa, back in 2013.
He's got a brand new book out called am I Gay?
Coming out of Cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus identity from
authentic Faith in Jesus. So, Gary, I want to linger
(10:41):
a little bit because I think it's important. There's a
kind of a transcendence to this, whether it ends up
in same sex attraction or not. It really talks about
the fact that broken people are parented by broken people.
And then you think to yourself, mercy, how do I
break that cycle? Right. And, you know, we put it
in colloquial sayings like the apple doesn't fall far from
the tree. Well, I discovered a long time ago that
I have a choice, that I can be at a crossroads,
(11:03):
and I can say I can keep the things that
my parents did beautifully and pass that on to my children.
And I can pluck the weeds out of the garden
that weren't done so well, and I'll break that. I
don't refer to it as a generational curse. I refer
to it as God given wisdom to be able to say, father,
help me recognize the distinction between those things that were
well done by my parents and those things that need
(11:23):
some repair and this new generation. And I think that's
all we can do it one generation at a time.
And we're not perfect parents. There's no such things. But
when I look at your background, where it was rules, rules, rules, rules,
wherever there's a lot of rules, there's absolutely no room
for grace. And I don't mean grace where you have
licentiousness and the liberty to do whatever you want. Paul
(11:44):
points it out right. You have the liberty. But is
it profitable? Okay, but what seemed to me that just
the natural human condition is when it's rules, rules, rules
all the time, you're going to look for some place
to go where you not only are able to just
scream and rebel and move away from that, but to
find meaning. Rules don't help you find meaning. They just
basically tell you you're a failure all the time. Talk
to me about that. Right.
S7 (12:05):
Well, I was just reading in the scriptures where Paul
is saying, fathers, don't exasperate your children. You know that.
And so I think that's one of the greatest ways
that we can exasperate our children. And my boys are
in the background listening to me, probably thinking of a
million things I've done to exasperate them. But the. But
I think one of the greatest ways is not leaning
(12:26):
in or even attempting to shepherd their hearts. Not not
being there to offer them, uh, offer them answers and
and dig in with them. Maybe not have all the answers,
but help them discover the answers in the Scripture and
in relationship with Jesus. And I think that's we desperately
need that filling up. As young people, it's a lot
easier to say no to sin, and the pull of
(12:48):
the flesh and the pull of the world when we
are relationally full of good things, when we're empty and starving.
Proverbs says that, um, a sated man, uh, detests honey,
but a famished man to a famous man. Any any
bitter thing is sweet. So I think we just have
to really take that seriously as parents.
S1 (13:05):
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. And not only that, but it
seems to me that there's a relationship here about how
God loves us. If we think that God, it's just
our natural propensity to superimpose on God our relationship with
our earthly father, even more so than our mother for
some reason. So yes, when when you look back at
what went on in your life, to me, this question
is so much bigger than whether or not you were
(13:26):
drawn into same sex attraction. It was saying, who am I?
How do I fit into this world? Where do I belong?
Talk to me about that.
S7 (13:32):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree that we do tend
to superimpose our earthly fathers onto God. And so I
grew up and I didn't. I wouldn't have known this
until looking back on how I felt toward God, or
what I thought God's posture was toward me is a
better way of putting it. And I always felt like
God had a two by four over his shoulder, just
watching and waiting for me to step out of line
(13:53):
to crack me upside the head. I felt like God
was a slave slave master that demands we love him.
Of course, that was never a message that was preached,
but it does. It does highlight the power of more
is caught than taught. Yes, and that definitely is how
I grew up, uh, feeling that God was. And it
wasn't until and I was spiritually as dead as a doornail.
It's one of the reasons I love that you really
(14:15):
highlighted the subtitle, which is ridiculously too long, but I
didn't know how to. I really wanted to describe. I
didn't just need to come out of the LGBT world,
I needed to come out of cultural Christianity. I was
spiritually dead, even though I grew up in the church
until the age of 23 and coming and surrendering my
life to Christ after I made a complete wreck of it.
S1 (14:32):
Well, Gary, and full disclosure, when I was reading the book,
that's what I kept thinking. I thought, I know what
your background is. I know where you were struggling in
terms of same sex attraction, but oh boy, it's about
a whole lot more than that. It really is. This
transcendent question is, in the words of Doctor Robert Magee's
best selling, it's the search for significance, right? Where we're
always trying to figure out, who am I? Where do
I belong, how does all this work? And you know,
(14:54):
when you've got that sort of legalistic background in your parenting?
And again, I, I learned a long time ago my
parents did the best they can. I don't have aught
against them at all. And I have to tell you
that the book, The Blessing, was very important in my
life to be able to understand that if your parent
can't give you the blessing, you can't be mad at
your parent. They couldn't give you the blessing. So how
do you pass it to your own kids? And how
(15:15):
do you work for restoration to parents who didn't know
how to give you the blessing? Right. So. But if
like when you talked about God, it's so true, is
God playing whack a mole with your life? And if
he is, what in the world would make me want
to obey, let alone love or have a relationship with God?
I would want to turn and run in the opposite direction.
(15:35):
Now I look at God and I go, oh, I
so want to obey you. Not because I'm worried about
being chastised, and I know he chasteneth those whom he loveth.
I'd rather do it because I love him. And the
more I love him, the more obedience just is a
wellspring that pours out of that. Am I right or wrong?
S7 (15:49):
That's right. That's absolutely right. And I love what you
were saying earlier, just about. I mean, the nature of
God and the reality that we don't have to have.
We could have been parented in some incredibly broken ways
with with parents that didn't even love us. I mean,
I know I've counseled as a pastor people that you
look back and you're like, wow, I mean, you were
sold for drug money. You were I mean, you were
(16:11):
just so badly abused. And even in those situations, and
certainly in my situation, um, we can lean in and
pursue God to help us become better fathers and mothers and, frankly,
just better men and women, sons and daughters of his
than than we've ever had in our lineage. Even so,
we don't have to have that in order to know
(16:32):
how to pass along. Um, good. And we can be
good gifts to our kids, to our spouses, to God,
regardless of what our background has been.
S1 (16:41):
Yeah, absolutely. Gary, you take a lot of time in
the beginning of the book to break down the roles
of moms and dads, the importance of moms ages 0
to 2, the importance of dads 3 to 6, the
importance of peers. I mean, this is really all about emotional, mental,
physical and spiritual development for a child. And it's very profound.
Out of all of that, if you don't, here comes
the music. Let me ask the question, and I'll get
(17:01):
the answer on the other side of the break. So
some people might go, okay, well, I didn't get a
degree in child psychology and I don't have a degree
in counseling. And that was then and this is now
and I don't care. Talk about why understanding that background,
those formative years, as we often hear them called, how
that does mold and shape the identity. And if the
mold was broken or cracked, a lot of people say, well,
(17:22):
that's who I am. I can't change. So there's a
hopelessness in that molding. I want to break that down
when we get back. Gary Ingram is with us. His
new book, am I Gay? Subtitled Coming Out of Cultural
Christianity Sanity and LGBTQ plus identity into authentic faith in Jesus.
Gary again is the founder and executive director of Love
and Truth Network. Back after.
S5 (17:42):
This.
S1 (17:56):
Am I gay? Coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ
plus identity into authentic Faith in Jesus brand new book
by Gary Ingram, who founded along with his wife Melissa
in 2013, the Love and Truth Network. Gary is both
founder and executive director. So, Gary, as I noted just
before the break, you take several chapters to really talk
(18:17):
about childhood development, and you talk about the role of
mom and dad in those various stages. And that's I
loved it, by the way. I just loved the social
science of all of that and how fearfully and wonderfully
made we are, and the predominantly important role that moms
and dads play in our life. So Mom and Dad
look well to the ways of your household. As Scripture says,
you can't do this in absentia. It's nobody else's job.
(18:38):
It's yours. You were divinely appointed for that. So fight
for your families, as Nehemiah says. So. But there are
other people now listening who are grown up, and their
mom and dad have probably passed and they're thinking, okay, well,
you don't know the kind of childhood I was raised in,
and I've got all kinds of cracks in my identity,
and I really don't know who I am, and I'm
just going to limp my way until I'm called home
(18:58):
for eternity. That's the person where my heart breaks the most,
because they're in that hopeless position where they think the
past is now. Prologue. Talk to them about that.
S7 (19:07):
Well, I mean, I really do love speaking with people
in that particular situation because I certainly felt that way
as well. A lot of hopelessness, a lot of just
feeling like I, I felt like I was just kind
of a, a god on God's cosmic chessboard, and I'm
just a pawn that he's moving around on and however
he wants to, and without much love or compassion. And I,
(19:28):
I now just see it so differently and I get
to experience what it's like to have walked in such brokenness,
walked in such rebellion and and really an enemy of,
of of God in terms of my behavior for so long.
And yet to see Him in his love and mercy
and grace reach in and and then I look back
and I think I see where he was with me
(19:49):
all along, not not supporting or desiring me to go
into sin and become a bartender at a gay club
and have all these countless encounters and all that. But
but that he was waiting for me to break so
he could really catch me and give me a new life.
So one of the greatest things I love about the
life that I get to live now with my wife, Melissa,
(20:10):
with my boys, but with ministry, with brothers in Christ.
And being in the Kingdom is and in the church is.
I get to experience what it's like to sow into
eternal purposes. Now I get to I get to experience
what it's like to to have brothers who deeply love me,
have a wife and children who deeply love me. and uh,
(20:30):
and friends and all of that in in being fully
known and fully loved, which I think is such a
rare experience in the church. Most people won't let I mean,
we all look like we're, you know, open and vulnerable,
but almost no one in Christianity is open and vulnerable
with one another, which I think is one of the
most one of the root causes to all kinds of brokenness,
sexual addictions of of substance and food addiction, whatever. We're
(20:54):
looking for something to fill us. When God has said,
I prepared this community for you. They're not perfect, but
it is a good meal. And, and and you can
eat from that. Uh, Hebrews encourage one another day after day,
as long as it's still called today. So your hearts
are not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. So I
just think all of that is so critical and it's
so important to lean into. And I get it where
(21:15):
people feel like, look, I've tried or I've just had
such a broken background. You are not. I really want
to speak to the person who feels that you are
not too far gone for God to reach in and
begin to change and shape your life, but it does
involve community in the church as well.
S1 (21:30):
Amen to that. You used two words. I want to
go back and underscore them. Fully known. Fully loved. Is
there a distinction between those two?
S7 (21:37):
Oh, absolutely. When we. So for years I felt like, um,
people would try to love me. They would they would
come alongside of me. But the thing, the nagging thing
that the enemy always pulled out and used was. Yeah, Gary,
they seem like they like you. He seems like he
could be a good friend. But if they only knew you,
they wouldn't want to have anything to do with you.
(21:58):
So as long as those dark, dirty, shameful things are
never known by anyone. That is a powerful opportunity for
the enemy to remind us of our shame and our
sin and our failures. Um, and to really prevent us
from receiving the love that's coming to us, we can
really only receive to the degree that we're willing to
(22:19):
go deeply into some of those broken places and let
people into some of those places to walk with us.
S1 (22:26):
So, Gary, based on what you just said, why do
you think that you went into same sex attractiveness? What
were you searching for there that you thought you could find?
S7 (22:37):
Well, so, I mean, I really am kind of the classic, uh,
poster child for the lack of connection with my own
father and and feeling that that deep longing to connect, uh, terrible, uh,
connection with my own peers. I have three older brothers
not really connected with them. Overidentification with my mom and
my sister. And so there was a lot also early
sexualization by older neighborhood boys and their dads, hardcore porn
(23:00):
at the age of 5 or 6, and then their sexual, uh,
being there for their sexual acting out as well. So
at a very early age, just had so much, um,
that was kind of the perfect storm in not none
of that made me gay. None of that. Well, frankly,
I don't think I ever was. I don't think anyone
ever is. Um, I thought that I was, I was
(23:21):
exclusively same sex attracted. I talk about that in the
conclusion of my book, but that our feelings do not
equal identity and and so, yes, I think there are
a number of things that fed into it. But it
was it was the way that I related to people
and the way that others related to me that really
created this soil in which same sex attraction could develop
or hook up culture could develop. And and just trying
(23:45):
to get our needs, needs met in a microwave quick
fix fashion rather than in the the goodness and the
slowness and the steadiness of deep relationship.
S1 (23:57):
You said something and it's a big conversation, so I'm
going to put it out again, and then we'll talk
about it on the other side of the break. I
wrote it down because I think it's powerful and I
don't want friends to miss this. Feelings do not equal identity. Oh, boy.
Stick your little nose outside of your own tent. Go
into the culture and you're going to hear that all
the time. That your feelings are your identity. This idea
(24:18):
of your feelings define truth. I feel like I'm trapped
in the wrong body. I feel fill in the blank.
So if our feelings don't equal our identity, what does?
I'm going to leave that as a hanging question. We're
going to continue with Gary Ingram when we get back.
Let me tell you again the name of his book
by the way. It's on my info page. If you're
interested in getting a copy in the market with Janet
Parshall under the summation of the hour. A red box,
(24:41):
it says program details and audio. Click it on Take
Show to the information page. There's a wonderful picture of Gary,
a link to Love and Truth Network and the book
am I Gay? To click on through back after this.
Christians are called to go into the marketplace of ideas.
(25:03):
Throughout history, men and women of God have been thought leaders,
innovators and forces for good. We want this program to
continue in that bold tradition. Join me by becoming a
partial partner. Your monthly gift will make a difference as
we help Christians take a bold stand in the marketplace
of ideas. Call today 877 Janet 58 or go online
to in the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with
(25:26):
Gary Ingram, who's the founder and executive director of Love
and Truth Network. That's a ministry he founded along with
his wife, Melissa, in 2013. Love and Truth Network is
a national ministry that equips pastors and Christian leaders to
develop environments of both safety and transformation, restoring relational and
sexual wholeness, as well as biblical identity. He's got a
(25:47):
brand new book out called am I Gay Coming Out
of Cultural Christianity. Underscore that and LGBTQ plus identity into
authentic faith in Christ. So the distinction there between cultural
Christianity and authentic faith is really the crux of this
entire book. Which goes back to the question I asked
Gary just before the break that you said love or
feelings rather do not equal identity. And yet that's probably
(26:11):
the wind in the sails of so many of the
bad ideas that are floating around our culture right now
when it comes to sexual identity. This is the way
I feel. Therefore, that's how I identify. It's transient. It's subjective.
It changes like the weather. And that can't possibly be
our anchor. Because left to letting feelings dictate truth and identity,
we're going to end up in a heap of trouble.
(26:32):
Talk to me about this.
S7 (26:34):
Well, it certainly is true. And I think it's what
really frustrates me is one who comes out of the
LGBT world is how as how this is masked as kindness,
how this is masked as a good thing, um, when
in fact you want to lock people, certain ones want
to lock people into a sense of identity that, um, will, uh,
(26:55):
for many, permanently medicalize them for the rest of their lives, uh,
that will castrate boys, that will, um, you know, alter
girls and boys in ways that are in many ways unimaginable,
trying to be something they never can be, trying to
be the opposite sex and and so that's obviously transgenderism.
But even I, I mean, nature itself tells us and
(27:17):
certainly the scriptures are abundantly clear that we were made
for one another as male and female. In the beginning,
God made them male and female. There's a way in
which our our bodies, our biology bear out that we
were made for one another. And of course, that's beyond
just a bodily thing. That's a spiritual thing. That's an
emotional thing. But but getting locked into, uh, our, our
(27:38):
feelings that drive this. So, I mean, you have the
issue of furries. You have this growing idea that we can,
we can and should lean into all of these alternative identities,
which actually, it's so nihilistic, it's so broken. And it
I see people all the time going into this downward spiral.
And so often, like me, in the past, we didn't
(27:59):
connect the dots. They're not connecting the dots to recognize, oh,
this is leading me in a bad place. Instead, everyone's
telling them and they start to believe I need to
to drill down even more. I need to pursue transgenderism
or what I need to pursue this even more than
I am. That's the problem. And instead it's like, no,
you're moving further and further away from the God who
designed you to to bear his image as a man
(28:21):
or woman. And, um, and so, yeah, having our identity
rooted in the garden, in who we are as male
and female, made in God's image of equal value, but
different expressions of who he is. And then in Christ,
that changes everything for us.
S1 (28:36):
Yeah. Your foray into same sex attraction is reflective of
your search for significance and your brokenness. For sure. You
point out in the book, though, that not not everybody
is going to find themselves down that path of same
sex attraction. But in truth, we're all trying to fix
our brokenness. It's just done in a myriad of ways.
Right or wrong?
S7 (28:56):
Yes. Yeah. Oh for sure. I mean, I oftentimes say that,
you know, 20% of what we do in ministry is
dealing with LGBT issues. I mean, everybody invites us in
because of our story. You know, churches across the country
or whatever. But what we're so concerned about is the
the rampant stage four cancer of sexual brokenness that's in
every church. and a heterosexual brokenness. And whether that's pornography addiction,
(29:19):
oftentimes even in the pulpit or other forms of sexual sin, um,
you know, it's yes, it doesn't matter what I dealt,
what I did is just one variation of trying to
meet my needs in my own way. And but so
many of us attempt that even as Christians and, and
we wind up getting sucked in and bound by this stuff.
(29:40):
And the only prescription that I can see is this
pathway of James 516 confess your sins to one another
and pray for each other, that you might be healed.
And and that's the last thing we want to do.
So we try everything else under the sun, so we
don't have to expose ourselves in shame or fear or
pride or all three of those things. But that's essential
for really finding the healing, um, that God wants to
(30:03):
work out in our lives through community.
S1 (30:05):
Let me linger here because I think you touched on
something important. So you just talked about that shame and
the guilt. You know what's fascinating and also problematic at
the same time, it's those issues that drive us into
areas of brokenness and sometimes wrong choices in repairing the brokenness.
So the very act of having to go back and
confessing those areas is like anathema. It's like the worst
(30:27):
thing you want to do, because you just want to
avoid that like the plague, right? That's the one thing
you don't want to touch on, because that's why you
fled in the first place toward the arms of emptiness.
You talk about nihilism toward the arms of emptiness, and
it's not found there. And yet that's exactly what the
scriptures compel us to do. Gulp. Okay. How did that
happen for you? Because you were finding identity and affirmation
(30:48):
in a male dominated world vis a vis same sex attraction.
But I'm not talking to you today. Still in that world.
So how did you get rescued?
S7 (30:57):
Well, there's two things that were huge. One is I
needed to get sick enough of what I was doing
and recognize this. I'm really stuck in this definition of insanity,
of trying to do the same thing over and over again,
expecting a different result. And and so I needed to become, uh,
desperate enough that I would. I would make changes and
I would seek God on on what the real solutions are. Like,
(31:18):
this is not working. And, um, and then secondarily, it
was finding a church. It was God leading me to
a church that wasn't just kind of a typical church,
which the church does so many wonderful things. And we
love the Bride of Christ. And the reason our ministry
exists is to equip the church further on these kinds
of issues, because we want the church to be, um,
(31:38):
fully equipped and have the tools they need to walk
with people in these places with both joy and confidence.
Two words you don't hear very often around sexual brokenness
or identity confusion, but so needed. And so we're so
capable of that by the power of God. So it
was coming into a church that had a men's group
that drew me under their wing and walked with me
(31:59):
and saw how broken I was, but didn't push me.
And at the same time, though, affirmed who I was
in Christ, uh, not my broken identity. And and it
was in those relationships that over the course of time,
God really in many ways fathered my my really masculine
soul in the company of these men.
S1 (32:17):
Yeah. That's so great. That's a wonderful observation. Okay, but
here's a conundrum. So you left, if I can put
it this way, cultural Christianity. And you went to a
church that you loved, how did you know the difference?
What you knew and experienced was cultural Christianity. How did
you know that this church was, in fact, going to
give you an authentic faith in Jesus?
S7 (32:36):
So I was, uh, I was covering the Midwest and
Northeast Territories for a company. And when I would go
back to the northeast and my kind of stomping ground,
I would go to this church and and I it
was it was very easy to see that something was
very different about this. This church told their stories. This
church talked about, uh, a marriage that was wrecked by adultery,
(32:56):
that has been put back together better than it was
prior to this revelation. It would talk about people coming
out of drug addiction and the messiness of that and
the the, you know, all the things that you typically
don't hear in the church. I just feel like the
church needs to start telling. We need to start telling
our stories again, and we need to stop cleaning them
up so much that they are completely irrelevant to a
broken culture. Um, so it was it was hearing those
(33:20):
kinds of things and also experiencing that people wanted to
be in relationship with me, that that was a very
different thing than just walking into kind of a stand up,
sit down church, you know, kneel, go through the motions.
And yes, we're going to go through the the biblical
functions and many true things in the scripture, but we're
not going to we don't want to be very close
(33:40):
to you. We don't want to. We don't want to
get messy with you. Um, so just come and do
your thing and God bless you, and we'll see you
next week. I mean, that was what I experienced at
a lot of churches. And it wasn't that they were
trying to be nasty. They just didn't lean into this
vulnerability and transparency that we so desperately need.
S1 (33:57):
Yeah. Exactly right. Well, let me pause here, Gary, because
this took a lot of courage on your part. You
came out of a church that fostered some of the brokenness.
It was part of the panoply of issues that you
were dealing with. So you could have gone to a
church where, um. And there is no perfect church, just
like there's no perfect parents. I get that, but you
could have stepped into a church that was deja vu
all over again. It replicated the sorts of things that
(34:19):
you were fleeing from in the first place. And you
could have said, I'm done. I'm not interested in God.
Don't talk to me about Christianity anymore. I'm going to
shake the dust off my sandals biblical picture, and I'm
not going to have anything to do with this anymore.
You didn't do that. Why not?
S7 (34:33):
Well, I feel like I did that a number of
times until finally getting desperate enough. And that really was
the word. It wasn't so much courage. It was desperation. And,
you know, and sometimes I think we as Christians in,
in trying to be well-meaning and caring for people, we
we kind of rob them of the desperation that God's
leading them into. And we we need to allow people
(34:55):
to sit sometimes in the mess of the results of our,
of their lives. And I needed that. But to be
present and to be available when they're ready to take
a step toward truth and toward surrender. And that really
is what I experienced. So. Yes, there was some courage
and all of that, but it was really desperation. And
then when I saw, honestly, I've been ruined to go
(35:17):
back to what I grew up in and and even
as I say that I grew up around some really
good and wonderful people and pastors and all that, that
loved Jesus, loved the people around them, but didn't know
how to lean into any of these kinds of things
we're talking about. And and I don't blame them for that.
They didn't have it, you know, and but when you
experience it, I, I one of the things I love
(35:40):
is you never want to go back to the mundane again.
Ritual of Christianity, cultural Christianity, as I say in my subtitle,
you want the real thing and you're desperate for the
real thing.
S1 (35:52):
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so it's one thing, and I'm asking
this question because there's no doubt in my mind because
we have such a large audience that there's people who
are struggling right now, like you struggled in the past,
and they're going, okay, so you went from cultural Christianity
to a church where there was authentic Christianity, authentic faith
in Christ being manifest, including but not limited to the
idea of being vulnerable and transparent. I once was lost,
(36:15):
but now I'm found. I was blind, but now I
can see. And that's a great for fellowship. You go
from the isolation and the ritualism of your brokenness in
the past, to the warmth and the fellowship. Okay. But
then there's this whole other issue, which now, how does
God take away what you had used to define yourself
so often up to that point, which is the same
sex attraction? How does God change that part of you?
(36:37):
Gary Ingram is with us. His book is called am
I Gay? Coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus
identity into authentic faith in Jesus. Back after this. Gary
(36:58):
Ingram is with us. He founded, along with his wife,
Melissa Love and Truth Network, a national ministry that equips
pastors and Christian leaders to help restore relational and sexual
wholeness and biblical identity. He's written a brand new book
called am I Gay? Coming out of Cultural Christianity and
LGBTQ identity into authentic Faith in Jesus. So I love
the story about your trying again and again and again.
(37:21):
Desperation led you to keep trying again and again and
again in your words. And you find this church where
you're affirmed, you're valued, there's transparent, people are telling their stories.
You're seeing what the power of Christ can do in
for and through people. And that's fabulous. And you feel
like I'm home now. How does God deal with the
very specific area that's challenging you, which is same sex attraction?
S7 (37:44):
Yeah, a great question. And I so I'd say one
of the important things is I know that there's whole
movements now, whether it's celibate, celibate, celibate, gay Christianity or
side B that that insists on holding on to an
identity that if you were to act on would be
sin and marrying that to your Christianity. So I'm a
gay Christian, a Christian, right? Uh, whatever the. Yeah. And
(38:06):
so there has to be a willingness, I believe, to
surrender all of ourselves to the lordship of Jesus Christ.
Now that by no means my wife and I and
many others are very honest about the fact that, yeah,
we still at times experience same sex attraction. But the
dial has been turned down so much on from where
it once was, where it felt like it was controlling
(38:27):
my whole life. But I am convinced that that would
not have shifted one iota if I demanded that that
I am known by, and that I'm living in this
sense of identity, that I'm a gay man or or whatever,
fill in the blank. So we have to be willing to, uh,
to find our identity exclusively rooted in who we are
(38:48):
as male and female, made in the image of God.
And also, um, as, as, uh, coming into the kingdom
of God through Jesus Christ. But again, we need to be, um,
equally as honest about the things we wrestle and struggle with.
I So I, I think it's very important whether it's
heterosexual stuff, LGBT things that we are open and vulnerable
and have that place to share those issues and be
(39:10):
prayed for and to be walked with and to experience
that fully being fully known and fully loved. So that
that was huge. That was very, very key for me.
And um, but also being over the course of time
being affirmed by men who didn't deal with the same
things I dealt with, uh, having men see me as
one of them, which was a very weird experience for
(39:32):
me in the beginning. It was very I wasn't expecting that.
But and then later going on staff at the very
church that I came to, addicted and broken and working
there for 12 years and becoming the head of their counseling.
I mean, who who does that? But God, I mean,
that's just so ridiculous in so many ways. Right? But
but having men from the church come and see me
having marriage, you know, men, husbands and wives come in
(39:54):
and meet with me. And recognizing God's given you something
that that is valuable And. And that began to over
the course of time like it's it's almost like onion
paper being laid down day after day after day after day.
And until it becomes this incredible stack that cannot be
torn apart, you know. And that's really how I feel
like the God really healed up and and strengthened my
(40:16):
frame as a man made in his image.
S1 (40:19):
So many things in response to what you just said.
And let me start with my last observation based on
what you just said, which is what I think I
appreciate so much about your ministry, love and truth is
that you really? Yes, the same sex attraction is a
part of that. But there's a transcendence to the ministry,
which is really whose are you? How do you identify?
Where do you find your significance? And that is universal
(40:39):
for every single one of us, not just people who
struggle with same sex attraction. The second thing I want
to underscore is how much. Gary, I appreciate the fact
that you push back against the idea of gay Christian.
I find that as problematic as calling myself a non-gay Christian.
Anything that is a precursor to the word Christian, which
means follower of Christ, means I'm already struggling with two
people sitting on the throne of my heart that there
(41:01):
is a co worshipper in there, even if it's my
identity that I'm worshiping, that somehow that moniker is going
to give me identity still. Paul. Acts 17. In him
I live and move and have my being. Period. Exclamation point,
end of sentence underlined with yellow magic marker. When you
put anything in front of that word, then what you're
(41:21):
really saying is I don't have full identity in him.
S7 (41:24):
Right, right. I completely agree, and I and I'm sure
that there are people listening who feel like, look, I've
tried what, you know, Gary has, has talked about I
used to be involved in Exodus International or I used
to be involved in this ministry or that ministry. And
and yet it is we aren't called to try something,
even for a long period of time. We're called to
give our lives to something and and to really lean
(41:46):
into again, to lift my. I was just navel gazing
for decades of my life. Uh, and so caught up
in my own brokenness. But when God began to heal
and grow and transform me, a lot of what happened
is he lifted my head and began to give me
this eternal perspective, this idea. I mean, it's such a
(42:07):
rich and amazing thing that also minimizes the pull of
sin and the pull of addiction. When we realize how
powerfully God can use us by his mercy and grace,
he doesn't need us, but how powerfully he invites us
into eternal value and perspectives, and allows us to be
a part of what he's doing in the universe. I mean,
(42:29):
that's just that's just crazy and all of the most
glorious ways possible. And yeah, so that does help us reduce,
I think, the our tendency of navel gazing, which only
then reinforces how I feel. And when we get stuck
in that loop, it can feel like I've just been
doing this for years and years. And I don't know
how you got through this, Gary, but but I'm still
(42:49):
stuck here. I still believe that God is transforming lives
for everyone who will yield to him and find those
kind of churches where people want to walk alongside you
and want to be a part of your community, that, um,
that strengthens you. And it wasn't just that I was
their project. They they opened themselves up to what I
had for them as well. And that's also part of
(43:10):
the power.
S1 (43:11):
Kerry, what do you say to the person? And thank
you for addressing that person who says, I was where
you were, but I can't get past it. Talk to
me about that idea of submitting on one level, that
that's a very frightening thing to a lot of people,
because in so doing, you're not sure how you're going
to come out on the other side, how you're going
to be identified. Wait a minute, is Jesus enough? If
I submit my identity to him, can he truly fill
(43:34):
me up to the edges of my skin? Talk to
that person. What would you say?
S7 (43:38):
Yeah, I mean, the idea of surrender, that's where it's
really at, is we have to come to a point
of recognizing, how is this working for me? I've been
beating my head against the same wall over and over
and over again. I'm not getting anywhere on my own
strength or even trying to do it the Christian way.
It's it's really in surrender and putting all my chips there,
putting everything there. And and that's where life really begins.
S5 (44:02):
Wow.
S1 (44:03):
Great conversation Gary. That hour went far too quickly. Thank
you so very much. And it is my fervent prayer
that you heard something this hour from Gary's heart. That
really is a challenge for you. If you're stuck in
that place where you're trapped a bi cultural Christianity, and
as a result of that, you're struggling with your identity
because you don't yet have an authentic faith in Jesus.
There's a whole lot of stuff there. And Gary spoke
(44:25):
on multiple levels this hour. May you be encouraged by
something that he's heard to move you forward into that transparent, authentic,
affirming relationship with Jesus Christ. Being affirmed that you were
made in his image, affirmed that he will give you
your identity in him. We live and move and have
our being. Check out Gary's book, It's There on our
(44:45):
information page. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next
time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
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(01:24):
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(01:46):
becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool.
Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:57):
Americans worshipping government over God.
S5 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S6 (02:03):
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S5 (02:07):
With the Russians.
S1 (02:21):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
I am so glad we're going to spend the hour together. And,
you know, I don't know about you, but some of
my favorite conversations are the kind where I get to
hear somebody tell me, tell us together what Christ has
done in for and through them. That's so powerful, by
the way. Because if Christ can do it in for
and through someone else, he can do the same thing
(02:43):
in your life as well. Old things can pass away,
all things can become new, and we become new creatures
in Jesus Christ. And just like that long list that
Paul articulates in the scripture and such were some of you,
there's such power in that word were. That's because through
the power of King Jesus, things can change dramatically. And
(03:03):
that's what we're going to talk about this hour. And
let me just put out a question on the table.
So what if you're asking yourself, am I gay? Does
it mean you're born that way? Does it mean you
don't have a choice? Does it mean that's it forevermore?
Should you just find a group of people that affirm
that decision? Or is there something else, something more, something deeper?
That's what we're going to talk about. In fact, the
conversation is going to emanate from a book called am
(03:24):
I Gay? Coming out of Cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus
identity into authentic faith in Jesus. And our teacher is
going to be Gary Ingram. Let me tell you about Gary.
I'm good. Glad to have him back on the program again.
Gary and Melissa founded Love and Truth Network back in 2013.
That's a national ministry that equips pastors and Christian leaders
(03:44):
to develop environments of both safety and transformation, restoring relational
and sexual wholeness, as well as biblical identity. That last
part being so very important, but prior to launching Love
and Truth Network, Gary served as pastor of Soul Care
Ministries on a pastoral team at a large church in
upstate New York for 12 years. Gary and Melissa have
(04:05):
such a powerful story. They came out themselves of identity confusion.
Met in 2004, married in 2007, have two boys. They
live in Phoenix, where Melissa runs her Christian counseling practice
and homeschools their children, while Gary serves as Executive Director
of Love and Truth Network. And if you read Gary's bio,
he loves to end it by saying life is full.
God is far beyond good. Can I get an amen
(04:26):
to that, Gary? What a joy to have you back
on the program again. Thank you. Our conversations are always
so relevant and you really are a representative of. Out
of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks and
you start this book by telling your story. In fact,
at the very beginning, you really challenge us to talk
about what is authentic Christianity and what is not. So
talk to me about and thank you again for going
(04:49):
back to the beginning. I oftentimes when I ask people
a question about the beginning of their Pilgrim's Progress. If
they go, oh, not again! I don't want to tell
it again, but I have a funny feeling that's not
the case for you, because it's so germane to the
ministry God has called you to. Am I right?
S7 (05:03):
Well, it certainly is. Thanks for having me on again, Janet.
It's always great to be with you. And and also,
my very first chapter is about my mom and dad's life.
So just to give a little bit of, uh, of
a snippet about them and kind of what they brought
into their parenting, because really, we are products of of
those that have gone before us and certainly of our,
our parents, um, and oftentimes even grandparents. So I think
(05:24):
it's important that we have an understanding of where both the,
the wholeness as well as the brokenness can stem from
in our lineage.
S1 (05:32):
Um, so what was significant about your mom and dad
in terms of their background and what role it played
in your life?
S7 (05:39):
Well, just a lot of relational brokenness, I think, with
my mom and dad individually in their own families. My
mom's father died when she was 5 or 6 years old.
My dad's mother left, and my dad would be, uh, what, uh,
you know, about 100 years old. Now, if he had
lived and and so, um, back in that day when,
you know, your mom or dad leaves and divorce happens,
(05:59):
it was really pretty scandalous. Uh, today it's a yawn, sadly.
But a lot of times the kids are looked down upon, even,
you know, back in that day, too. So there was
just a lot of relational fracture, brokenness and, um, and
a lot of confusion in their own lives. They kind
of came together, didn't fall madly in love, but just
felt like this will do. Well, it did for 68
years before my dad passed away, um, at 88 years
(06:22):
of age. And my mom, um, five years later. But
they did, um, they were rooted in Christianity later on
in life. They brought me up in that. But it
was really the form of Christianity that was very rules based,
very heavy handed, a lot of do's and don'ts, not
a lot about relationship. Um, not certainly. No. Um, getting
into the, uh, underneath the lid and looking at, hey,
(06:45):
why are why are we drawn to these things? Not
just because of sin and the flesh, but what particularly
is drawing me into areas that I really don't want
to act out on as a Christian? Um, but yet
I feel compelled to. I mean, there was just none
of that growing up. And so to kind of left
to yourself, to sort of figure those things out, um,
I'd say that was a lot of the, the impact
(07:06):
that my parents brought into my upbringing.
S1 (07:08):
Yeah. You write in the book, for my parents, fun
was a waste of time. As such, our home was
a place rife with rules and lacking in Christian virtues
like compassion, patience, love, and kindness. Is it any surprise
my siblings and I spent as much time away from
the house as possible? And then you go on to say,
walks in the woods, fishing, exploring, among other mischievous activities.
For me, mischief usually included something of a sexual nature
(07:30):
searching out pornography or sneaking off with neighborhood kids that
we were supposed to stay away from. Isn't that interesting?
Why do you think, given that, and again, I want
to thank you for the transparency so many other people
can find healing when they hear again how someone else
has been healed through the power of God's love. But
why do you think out of all. It's one thing
to walk through the woods. It's another to say, I'm
going to look out porn. Why? Why that fishing bait?
(07:53):
What drew you?
S7 (07:54):
Well, it's a great, great question. And I really grew
up in an environment that most boys would just think, oh, my.
I mean, this is incredible. But of course, you only
know what you have. You don't know. I mean, I
look back on some of that and think, wow, I
could have had a much better experience. But the problem is,
is I was feeling so empty, so lonely at such
an early age. I remember, you know, around the age
(08:15):
of 5 or 6, just feeling profoundly empty and lonely and,
and because my parents didn't even have an awareness, my
dad in particular, that there was really anything to fill up.
I mean, it just kids kind of did what you
told them to do. They were they were almost kind
of treated like property. And and my dad was not
a bad man at all. Um, I grew very close
to him later on in life, and I love my dad, but, um,
(08:39):
growing up with him, it was just a very different world.
But I think it was the emptiness and that gnawing
desire for something and pornography and sexual sin becomes this
powerful counterfeit for authentic intimacy. I think it's one of
the reasons, whether it's as kids or teens or as adults,
that we get hooked on sexual, whether it's pornography or
(08:59):
or hookup culture or whatever. We do get hooked on
that because we are so empty and so lonely and
so raw.
S1 (09:07):
Yeah, well. Well said. There are two things in the
subtitle I want to point out. Obviously, the title catch
your attention. Am I gay? But listen to what the
subtitle is. Again, coming out of cultural Christianity, that in
and of itself is a huge topic and LGBTQ plus
identity into. Here's the other part of the subtitle that's
so important authentic Faith in Jesus. So as we continue
(09:27):
our conversation, we're going to learn to draw the distinction
between cultural Christianity and authentic faith in Jesus. Gary Ingram
is with us for the entire hour. Again, his brand
new book is called am I game? Lots to talk about.
We'll continue right after this. The questions that matter most
(09:57):
often come while watching a sunset, or listening to music,
or looking into the night sky. That's why I've chosen.
Have you ever wondered, as this month's truth tool? God
draws us to himself through a sense of awe and wonder,
and this book will help you discover how. As for
your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you'd give
a gift of any amount in the market? Call eight 7758.
That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with
(10:20):
Janet Parshall. Gary Ingraham is with us. He's the founder
and executive director of Love and Truth Network. That's a
ministry he founded along with his wife Melissa, back in 2013.
He's got a brand new book out called am I Gay?
Coming out of Cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus identity from
authentic Faith in Jesus. So, Gary, I want to linger
(10:41):
a little bit because I think it's important. There's a
kind of a transcendence to this, whether it ends up
in same sex attraction or not. It really talks about
the fact that broken people are parented by broken people.
And then you think to yourself, mercy, how do I
break that cycle? Right. And, you know, we put it
in colloquial sayings like the apple doesn't fall far from
the tree. Well, I discovered a long time ago that
I have a choice, that I can be at a crossroads,
(11:03):
and I can say I can keep the things that
my parents did beautifully and pass that on to my children.
And I can pluck the weeds out of the garden
that weren't done so well, and I'll break that. I
don't refer to it as a generational curse. I refer
to it as God given wisdom to be able to say, father,
help me recognize the distinction between those things that were
well done by my parents and those things that need
(11:23):
some repair and this new generation. And I think that's
all we can do it one generation at a time.
And we're not perfect parents. There's no such things. But
when I look at your background, where it was rules, rules, rules, rules,
wherever there's a lot of rules, there's absolutely no room
for grace. And I don't mean grace where you have
licentiousness and the liberty to do whatever you want. Paul
(11:44):
points it out right. You have the liberty. But is
it profitable? Okay, but what seemed to me that just
the natural human condition is when it's rules, rules, rules
all the time, you're going to look for some place
to go where you not only are able to just
scream and rebel and move away from that, but to
find meaning. Rules don't help you find meaning. They just
basically tell you you're a failure all the time. Talk
to me about that. Right.
S7 (12:05):
Well, I was just reading in the scriptures where Paul
is saying, fathers, don't exasperate your children. You know that.
And so I think that's one of the greatest ways
that we can exasperate our children. And my boys are
in the background listening to me, probably thinking of a
million things I've done to exasperate them. But the. But
I think one of the greatest ways is not leaning
(12:26):
in or even attempting to shepherd their hearts. Not not
being there to offer them, uh, offer them answers and
and dig in with them. Maybe not have all the answers,
but help them discover the answers in the Scripture and
in relationship with Jesus. And I think that's we desperately
need that filling up. As young people, it's a lot
easier to say no to sin, and the pull of
(12:48):
the flesh and the pull of the world when we
are relationally full of good things, when we're empty and starving.
Proverbs says that, um, a sated man, uh, detests honey,
but a famished man to a famous man. Any any
bitter thing is sweet. So I think we just have
to really take that seriously as parents.
S1 (13:05):
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. And not only that, but it
seems to me that there's a relationship here about how
God loves us. If we think that God, it's just
our natural propensity to superimpose on God our relationship with
our earthly father, even more so than our mother for
some reason. So yes, when when you look back at
what went on in your life, to me, this question
is so much bigger than whether or not you were
(13:26):
drawn into same sex attraction. It was saying, who am I?
How do I fit into this world? Where do I belong?
Talk to me about that.
S7 (13:32):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree that we do tend
to superimpose our earthly fathers onto God. And so I
grew up and I didn't. I wouldn't have known this
until looking back on how I felt toward God, or
what I thought God's posture was toward me is a
better way of putting it. And I always felt like
God had a two by four over his shoulder, just
watching and waiting for me to step out of line
(13:53):
to crack me upside the head. I felt like God
was a slave slave master that demands we love him.
Of course, that was never a message that was preached,
but it does. It does highlight the power of more
is caught than taught. Yes, and that definitely is how
I grew up, uh, feeling that God was. And it
wasn't until and I was spiritually as dead as a doornail.
It's one of the reasons I love that you really
(14:15):
highlighted the subtitle, which is ridiculously too long, but I
didn't know how to. I really wanted to describe. I
didn't just need to come out of the LGBT world,
I needed to come out of cultural Christianity. I was
spiritually dead, even though I grew up in the church
until the age of 23 and coming and surrendering my
life to Christ after I made a complete wreck of it.
S1 (14:32):
Well, Gary, and full disclosure, when I was reading the book,
that's what I kept thinking. I thought, I know what
your background is. I know where you were struggling in
terms of same sex attraction, but oh boy, it's about
a whole lot more than that. It really is. This
transcendent question is, in the words of Doctor Robert Magee's
best selling, it's the search for significance, right? Where we're
always trying to figure out, who am I? Where do
I belong, how does all this work? And you know,
(14:54):
when you've got that sort of legalistic background in your parenting?
And again, I, I learned a long time ago my
parents did the best they can. I don't have aught
against them at all. And I have to tell you
that the book, The Blessing, was very important in my
life to be able to understand that if your parent
can't give you the blessing, you can't be mad at
your parent. They couldn't give you the blessing. So how
do you pass it to your own kids? And how
(15:15):
do you work for restoration to parents who didn't know
how to give you the blessing? Right. So. But if
like when you talked about God, it's so true, is
God playing whack a mole with your life? And if
he is, what in the world would make me want
to obey, let alone love or have a relationship with God?
I would want to turn and run in the opposite direction.
(15:35):
Now I look at God and I go, oh, I
so want to obey you. Not because I'm worried about
being chastised, and I know he chasteneth those whom he loveth.
I'd rather do it because I love him. And the
more I love him, the more obedience just is a
wellspring that pours out of that. Am I right or wrong?
S7 (15:49):
That's right. That's absolutely right. And I love what you
were saying earlier, just about. I mean, the nature of
God and the reality that we don't have to have.
We could have been parented in some incredibly broken ways
with with parents that didn't even love us. I mean,
I know I've counseled as a pastor people that you
look back and you're like, wow, I mean, you were
sold for drug money. You were I mean, you were
(16:11):
just so badly abused. And even in those situations, and
certainly in my situation, um, we can lean in and
pursue God to help us become better fathers and mothers and, frankly,
just better men and women, sons and daughters of his
than than we've ever had in our lineage. Even so,
we don't have to have that in order to know
(16:32):
how to pass along. Um, good. And we can be
good gifts to our kids, to our spouses, to God,
regardless of what our background has been.
S1 (16:41):
Yeah, absolutely. Gary, you take a lot of time in
the beginning of the book to break down the roles
of moms and dads, the importance of moms ages 0
to 2, the importance of dads 3 to 6, the
importance of peers. I mean, this is really all about emotional, mental,
physical and spiritual development for a child. And it's very profound.
Out of all of that, if you don't, here comes
the music. Let me ask the question, and I'll get
(17:01):
the answer on the other side of the break. So
some people might go, okay, well, I didn't get a
degree in child psychology and I don't have a degree
in counseling. And that was then and this is now
and I don't care. Talk about why understanding that background,
those formative years, as we often hear them called, how
that does mold and shape the identity. And if the
mold was broken or cracked, a lot of people say, well,
(17:22):
that's who I am. I can't change. So there's a
hopelessness in that molding. I want to break that down
when we get back. Gary Ingram is with us. His
new book, am I Gay? Subtitled Coming Out of Cultural
Christianity Sanity and LGBTQ plus identity into authentic faith in Jesus.
Gary again is the founder and executive director of Love
and Truth Network. Back after.
S5 (17:42):
This.
S1 (17:56):
Am I gay? Coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ
plus identity into authentic Faith in Jesus brand new book
by Gary Ingram, who founded along with his wife Melissa
in 2013, the Love and Truth Network. Gary is both
founder and executive director. So, Gary, as I noted just
before the break, you take several chapters to really talk
(18:17):
about childhood development, and you talk about the role of
mom and dad in those various stages. And that's I
loved it, by the way. I just loved the social
science of all of that and how fearfully and wonderfully
made we are, and the predominantly important role that moms
and dads play in our life. So Mom and Dad
look well to the ways of your household. As Scripture says,
you can't do this in absentia. It's nobody else's job.
(18:38):
It's yours. You were divinely appointed for that. So fight
for your families, as Nehemiah says. So. But there are
other people now listening who are grown up, and their
mom and dad have probably passed and they're thinking, okay, well,
you don't know the kind of childhood I was raised in,
and I've got all kinds of cracks in my identity,
and I really don't know who I am, and I'm
just going to limp my way until I'm called home
(18:58):
for eternity. That's the person where my heart breaks the most,
because they're in that hopeless position where they think the
past is now. Prologue. Talk to them about that.
S7 (19:07):
Well, I mean, I really do love speaking with people
in that particular situation because I certainly felt that way
as well. A lot of hopelessness, a lot of just
feeling like I, I felt like I was just kind
of a, a god on God's cosmic chessboard, and I'm
just a pawn that he's moving around on and however
he wants to, and without much love or compassion. And I,
(19:28):
I now just see it so differently and I get
to experience what it's like to have walked in such brokenness,
walked in such rebellion and and really an enemy of,
of of God in terms of my behavior for so long.
And yet to see Him in his love and mercy
and grace reach in and and then I look back
and I think I see where he was with me
(19:49):
all along, not not supporting or desiring me to go
into sin and become a bartender at a gay club
and have all these countless encounters and all that. But
but that he was waiting for me to break so
he could really catch me and give me a new life.
So one of the greatest things I love about the
life that I get to live now with my wife, Melissa,
(20:10):
with my boys, but with ministry, with brothers in Christ.
And being in the Kingdom is and in the church is.
I get to experience what it's like to sow into
eternal purposes. Now I get to I get to experience
what it's like to to have brothers who deeply love me,
have a wife and children who deeply love me. and uh,
(20:30):
and friends and all of that in in being fully
known and fully loved, which I think is such a
rare experience in the church. Most people won't let I mean,
we all look like we're, you know, open and vulnerable,
but almost no one in Christianity is open and vulnerable
with one another, which I think is one of the
most one of the root causes to all kinds of brokenness,
sexual addictions of of substance and food addiction, whatever. We're
(20:54):
looking for something to fill us. When God has said,
I prepared this community for you. They're not perfect, but
it is a good meal. And, and and you can
eat from that. Uh, Hebrews encourage one another day after day,
as long as it's still called today. So your hearts
are not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. So I
just think all of that is so critical and it's
so important to lean into. And I get it where
(21:15):
people feel like, look, I've tried or I've just had
such a broken background. You are not. I really want
to speak to the person who feels that you are
not too far gone for God to reach in and
begin to change and shape your life, but it does
involve community in the church as well.
S1 (21:30):
Amen to that. You used two words. I want to
go back and underscore them. Fully known. Fully loved. Is
there a distinction between those two?
S7 (21:37):
Oh, absolutely. When we. So for years I felt like, um,
people would try to love me. They would they would
come alongside of me. But the thing, the nagging thing
that the enemy always pulled out and used was. Yeah, Gary,
they seem like they like you. He seems like he
could be a good friend. But if they only knew you,
they wouldn't want to have anything to do with you.
(21:58):
So as long as those dark, dirty, shameful things are
never known by anyone. That is a powerful opportunity for
the enemy to remind us of our shame and our
sin and our failures. Um, and to really prevent us
from receiving the love that's coming to us, we can
really only receive to the degree that we're willing to
(22:19):
go deeply into some of those broken places and let
people into some of those places to walk with us.
S1 (22:26):
So, Gary, based on what you just said, why do
you think that you went into same sex attractiveness? What
were you searching for there that you thought you could find?
S7 (22:37):
Well, so, I mean, I really am kind of the classic, uh,
poster child for the lack of connection with my own
father and and feeling that that deep longing to connect, uh, terrible, uh,
connection with my own peers. I have three older brothers
not really connected with them. Overidentification with my mom and
my sister. And so there was a lot also early
sexualization by older neighborhood boys and their dads, hardcore porn
(23:00):
at the age of 5 or 6, and then their sexual, uh,
being there for their sexual acting out as well. So
at a very early age, just had so much, um,
that was kind of the perfect storm in not none
of that made me gay. None of that. Well, frankly,
I don't think I ever was. I don't think anyone
ever is. Um, I thought that I was, I was
(23:21):
exclusively same sex attracted. I talk about that in the
conclusion of my book, but that our feelings do not
equal identity and and so, yes, I think there are
a number of things that fed into it. But it
was it was the way that I related to people
and the way that others related to me that really
created this soil in which same sex attraction could develop
or hook up culture could develop. And and just trying
(23:45):
to get our needs, needs met in a microwave quick
fix fashion rather than in the the goodness and the
slowness and the steadiness of deep relationship.
S1 (23:57):
You said something and it's a big conversation, so I'm
going to put it out again, and then we'll talk
about it on the other side of the break. I
wrote it down because I think it's powerful and I
don't want friends to miss this. Feelings do not equal identity. Oh, boy.
Stick your little nose outside of your own tent. Go
into the culture and you're going to hear that all
the time. That your feelings are your identity. This idea
(24:18):
of your feelings define truth. I feel like I'm trapped
in the wrong body. I feel fill in the blank.
So if our feelings don't equal our identity, what does?
I'm going to leave that as a hanging question. We're
going to continue with Gary Ingram when we get back.
Let me tell you again the name of his book
by the way. It's on my info page. If you're
interested in getting a copy in the market with Janet
Parshall under the summation of the hour. A red box,
(24:41):
it says program details and audio. Click it on Take
Show to the information page. There's a wonderful picture of Gary,
a link to Love and Truth Network and the book
am I Gay? To click on through back after this.
Christians are called to go into the marketplace of ideas.
(25:03):
Throughout history, men and women of God have been thought leaders,
innovators and forces for good. We want this program to
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we help Christians take a bold stand in the marketplace
of ideas. Call today 877 Janet 58 or go online
to in the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with
(25:26):
Gary Ingram, who's the founder and executive director of Love
and Truth Network. That's a ministry he founded along with
his wife, Melissa, in 2013. Love and Truth Network is
a national ministry that equips pastors and Christian leaders to
develop environments of both safety and transformation, restoring relational and
sexual wholeness, as well as biblical identity. He's got a
(25:47):
brand new book out called am I Gay Coming Out
of Cultural Christianity. Underscore that and LGBTQ plus identity into
authentic faith in Christ. So the distinction there between cultural
Christianity and authentic faith is really the crux of this
entire book. Which goes back to the question I asked
Gary just before the break that you said love or
feelings rather do not equal identity. And yet that's probably
(26:11):
the wind in the sails of so many of the
bad ideas that are floating around our culture right now
when it comes to sexual identity. This is the way
I feel. Therefore, that's how I identify. It's transient. It's subjective.
It changes like the weather. And that can't possibly be
our anchor. Because left to letting feelings dictate truth and identity,
we're going to end up in a heap of trouble.
(26:32):
Talk to me about this.
S7 (26:34):
Well, it certainly is true. And I think it's what
really frustrates me is one who comes out of the
LGBT world is how as how this is masked as kindness,
how this is masked as a good thing, um, when
in fact you want to lock people, certain ones want
to lock people into a sense of identity that, um, will, uh,
(26:55):
for many, permanently medicalize them for the rest of their lives, uh,
that will castrate boys, that will, um, you know, alter
girls and boys in ways that are in many ways unimaginable,
trying to be something they never can be, trying to
be the opposite sex and and so that's obviously transgenderism.
But even I, I mean, nature itself tells us and
(27:17):
certainly the scriptures are abundantly clear that we were made
for one another as male and female. In the beginning,
God made them male and female. There's a way in
which our our bodies, our biology bear out that we
were made for one another. And of course, that's beyond
just a bodily thing. That's a spiritual thing. That's an
emotional thing. But but getting locked into, uh, our, our
(27:38):
feelings that drive this. So, I mean, you have the
issue of furries. You have this growing idea that we can,
we can and should lean into all of these alternative identities,
which actually, it's so nihilistic, it's so broken. And it
I see people all the time going into this downward spiral.
And so often, like me, in the past, we didn't
(27:59):
connect the dots. They're not connecting the dots to recognize, oh,
this is leading me in a bad place. Instead, everyone's
telling them and they start to believe I need to
to drill down even more. I need to pursue transgenderism
or what I need to pursue this even more than
I am. That's the problem. And instead it's like, no,
you're moving further and further away from the God who
designed you to to bear his image as a man
(28:21):
or woman. And, um, and so, yeah, having our identity
rooted in the garden, in who we are as male
and female, made in God's image of equal value, but
different expressions of who he is. And then in Christ,
that changes everything for us.
S1 (28:36):
Yeah. Your foray into same sex attraction is reflective of
your search for significance and your brokenness. For sure. You
point out in the book, though, that not not everybody
is going to find themselves down that path of same
sex attraction. But in truth, we're all trying to fix
our brokenness. It's just done in a myriad of ways.
Right or wrong?
S7 (28:56):
Yes. Yeah. Oh for sure. I mean, I oftentimes say that,
you know, 20% of what we do in ministry is
dealing with LGBT issues. I mean, everybody invites us in
because of our story. You know, churches across the country
or whatever. But what we're so concerned about is the
the rampant stage four cancer of sexual brokenness that's in
every church. and a heterosexual brokenness. And whether that's pornography addiction,
(29:19):
oftentimes even in the pulpit or other forms of sexual sin, um,
you know, it's yes, it doesn't matter what I dealt,
what I did is just one variation of trying to
meet my needs in my own way. And but so
many of us attempt that even as Christians and, and
we wind up getting sucked in and bound by this stuff.
(29:40):
And the only prescription that I can see is this
pathway of James 516 confess your sins to one another
and pray for each other, that you might be healed.
And and that's the last thing we want to do.
So we try everything else under the sun, so we
don't have to expose ourselves in shame or fear or
pride or all three of those things. But that's essential
for really finding the healing, um, that God wants to
(30:03):
work out in our lives through community.
S1 (30:05):
Let me linger here because I think you touched on
something important. So you just talked about that shame and
the guilt. You know what's fascinating and also problematic at
the same time, it's those issues that drive us into
areas of brokenness and sometimes wrong choices in repairing the brokenness.
So the very act of having to go back and
confessing those areas is like anathema. It's like the worst
(30:27):
thing you want to do, because you just want to
avoid that like the plague, right? That's the one thing
you don't want to touch on, because that's why you
fled in the first place toward the arms of emptiness.
You talk about nihilism toward the arms of emptiness, and
it's not found there. And yet that's exactly what the
scriptures compel us to do. Gulp. Okay. How did that
happen for you? Because you were finding identity and affirmation
(30:48):
in a male dominated world vis a vis same sex attraction.
But I'm not talking to you today. Still in that world.
So how did you get rescued?
S7 (30:57):
Well, there's two things that were huge. One is I
needed to get sick enough of what I was doing
and recognize this. I'm really stuck in this definition of insanity,
of trying to do the same thing over and over again,
expecting a different result. And and so I needed to become, uh,
desperate enough that I would. I would make changes and
I would seek God on on what the real solutions are. Like,
(31:18):
this is not working. And, um, and then secondarily, it
was finding a church. It was God leading me to
a church that wasn't just kind of a typical church,
which the church does so many wonderful things. And we
love the Bride of Christ. And the reason our ministry
exists is to equip the church further on these kinds
of issues, because we want the church to be, um,
(31:38):
fully equipped and have the tools they need to walk
with people in these places with both joy and confidence.
Two words you don't hear very often around sexual brokenness
or identity confusion, but so needed. And so we're so
capable of that by the power of God. So it
was coming into a church that had a men's group
that drew me under their wing and walked with me
(31:59):
and saw how broken I was, but didn't push me.
And at the same time, though, affirmed who I was
in Christ, uh, not my broken identity. And and it
was in those relationships that over the course of time,
God really in many ways fathered my my really masculine
soul in the company of these men.
S1 (32:17):
Yeah. That's so great. That's a wonderful observation. Okay, but
here's a conundrum. So you left, if I can put
it this way, cultural Christianity. And you went to a
church that you loved, how did you know the difference?
What you knew and experienced was cultural Christianity. How did
you know that this church was, in fact, going to
give you an authentic faith in Jesus?
S7 (32:36):
So I was, uh, I was covering the Midwest and
Northeast Territories for a company. And when I would go
back to the northeast and my kind of stomping ground,
I would go to this church and and I it
was it was very easy to see that something was
very different about this. This church told their stories. This
church talked about, uh, a marriage that was wrecked by adultery,
(32:56):
that has been put back together better than it was
prior to this revelation. It would talk about people coming
out of drug addiction and the messiness of that and
the the, you know, all the things that you typically
don't hear in the church. I just feel like the
church needs to start telling. We need to start telling
our stories again, and we need to stop cleaning them
up so much that they are completely irrelevant to a
broken culture. Um, so it was it was hearing those
(33:20):
kinds of things and also experiencing that people wanted to
be in relationship with me, that that was a very
different thing than just walking into kind of a stand up,
sit down church, you know, kneel, go through the motions.
And yes, we're going to go through the the biblical
functions and many true things in the scripture, but we're
not going to we don't want to be very close
(33:40):
to you. We don't want to. We don't want to
get messy with you. Um, so just come and do
your thing and God bless you, and we'll see you
next week. I mean, that was what I experienced at
a lot of churches. And it wasn't that they were
trying to be nasty. They just didn't lean into this
vulnerability and transparency that we so desperately need.
S1 (33:57):
Yeah. Exactly right. Well, let me pause here, Gary, because
this took a lot of courage on your part. You
came out of a church that fostered some of the brokenness.
It was part of the panoply of issues that you
were dealing with. So you could have gone to a
church where, um. And there is no perfect church, just
like there's no perfect parents. I get that, but you
could have stepped into a church that was deja vu
all over again. It replicated the sorts of things that
(34:19):
you were fleeing from in the first place. And you
could have said, I'm done. I'm not interested in God.
Don't talk to me about Christianity anymore. I'm going to
shake the dust off my sandals biblical picture, and I'm
not going to have anything to do with this anymore.
You didn't do that. Why not?
S7 (34:33):
Well, I feel like I did that a number of
times until finally getting desperate enough. And that really was
the word. It wasn't so much courage. It was desperation. And,
you know, and sometimes I think we as Christians in,
in trying to be well-meaning and caring for people, we
we kind of rob them of the desperation that God's
leading them into. And we we need to allow people
(34:55):
to sit sometimes in the mess of the results of our,
of their lives. And I needed that. But to be
present and to be available when they're ready to take
a step toward truth and toward surrender. And that really
is what I experienced. So. Yes, there was some courage
and all of that, but it was really desperation. And
then when I saw, honestly, I've been ruined to go
(35:17):
back to what I grew up in and and even
as I say that I grew up around some really
good and wonderful people and pastors and all that, that
loved Jesus, loved the people around them, but didn't know
how to lean into any of these kinds of things
we're talking about. And and I don't blame them for that.
They didn't have it, you know, and but when you
experience it, I, I one of the things I love
(35:40):
is you never want to go back to the mundane again.
Ritual of Christianity, cultural Christianity, as I say in my subtitle,
you want the real thing and you're desperate for the
real thing.
S1 (35:52):
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so it's one thing, and I'm asking
this question because there's no doubt in my mind because
we have such a large audience that there's people who
are struggling right now, like you struggled in the past,
and they're going, okay, so you went from cultural Christianity
to a church where there was authentic Christianity, authentic faith
in Christ being manifest, including but not limited to the
idea of being vulnerable and transparent. I once was lost,
(36:15):
but now I'm found. I was blind, but now I
can see. And that's a great for fellowship. You go
from the isolation and the ritualism of your brokenness in
the past, to the warmth and the fellowship. Okay. But
then there's this whole other issue, which now, how does
God take away what you had used to define yourself
so often up to that point, which is the same
sex attraction? How does God change that part of you?
(36:37):
Gary Ingram is with us. His book is called am
I Gay? Coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus
identity into authentic faith in Jesus. Back after this. Gary
(36:58):
Ingram is with us. He founded, along with his wife,
Melissa Love and Truth Network, a national ministry that equips
pastors and Christian leaders to help restore relational and sexual
wholeness and biblical identity. He's written a brand new book
called am I Gay? Coming out of Cultural Christianity and
LGBTQ identity into authentic Faith in Jesus. So I love
the story about your trying again and again and again.
(37:21):
Desperation led you to keep trying again and again and
again in your words. And you find this church where
you're affirmed, you're valued, there's transparent, people are telling their stories.
You're seeing what the power of Christ can do in
for and through people. And that's fabulous. And you feel
like I'm home now. How does God deal with the
very specific area that's challenging you, which is same sex attraction?
S7 (37:44):
Yeah, a great question. And I so I'd say one
of the important things is I know that there's whole
movements now, whether it's celibate, celibate, celibate, gay Christianity or
side B that that insists on holding on to an
identity that if you were to act on would be
sin and marrying that to your Christianity. So I'm a
gay Christian, a Christian, right? Uh, whatever the. Yeah. And
(38:06):
so there has to be a willingness, I believe, to
surrender all of ourselves to the lordship of Jesus Christ.
Now that by no means my wife and I and
many others are very honest about the fact that, yeah,
we still at times experience same sex attraction. But the
dial has been turned down so much on from where
it once was, where it felt like it was controlling
(38:27):
my whole life. But I am convinced that that would
not have shifted one iota if I demanded that that
I am known by, and that I'm living in this
sense of identity, that I'm a gay man or or whatever,
fill in the blank. So we have to be willing to, uh,
to find our identity exclusively rooted in who we are
(38:48):
as male and female, made in the image of God.
And also, um, as, as, uh, coming into the kingdom
of God through Jesus Christ. But again, we need to be, um,
equally as honest about the things we wrestle and struggle with.
I So I, I think it's very important whether it's
heterosexual stuff, LGBT things that we are open and vulnerable
and have that place to share those issues and be
(39:10):
prayed for and to be walked with and to experience
that fully being fully known and fully loved. So that
that was huge. That was very, very key for me.
And um, but also being over the course of time
being affirmed by men who didn't deal with the same
things I dealt with, uh, having men see me as
one of them, which was a very weird experience for
(39:32):
me in the beginning. It was very I wasn't expecting that.
But and then later going on staff at the very
church that I came to, addicted and broken and working
there for 12 years and becoming the head of their counseling.
I mean, who who does that? But God, I mean,
that's just so ridiculous in so many ways. Right? But
but having men from the church come and see me
having marriage, you know, men, husbands and wives come in
(39:54):
and meet with me. And recognizing God's given you something
that that is valuable And. And that began to over
the course of time like it's it's almost like onion
paper being laid down day after day after day after day.
And until it becomes this incredible stack that cannot be
torn apart, you know. And that's really how I feel
like the God really healed up and and strengthened my
(40:16):
frame as a man made in his image.
S1 (40:19):
So many things in response to what you just said.
And let me start with my last observation based on
what you just said, which is what I think I
appreciate so much about your ministry, love and truth is
that you really? Yes, the same sex attraction is a
part of that. But there's a transcendence to the ministry,
which is really whose are you? How do you identify?
Where do you find your significance? And that is universal
(40:39):
for every single one of us, not just people who
struggle with same sex attraction. The second thing I want
to underscore is how much. Gary, I appreciate the fact
that you push back against the idea of gay Christian.
I find that as problematic as calling myself a non-gay Christian.
Anything that is a precursor to the word Christian, which
means follower of Christ, means I'm already struggling with two
people sitting on the throne of my heart that there
(41:01):
is a co worshipper in there, even if it's my
identity that I'm worshiping, that somehow that moniker is going
to give me identity still. Paul. Acts 17. In him
I live and move and have my being. Period. Exclamation point,
end of sentence underlined with yellow magic marker. When you
put anything in front of that word, then what you're
(41:21):
really saying is I don't have full identity in him.
S7 (41:24):
Right, right. I completely agree, and I and I'm sure
that there are people listening who feel like, look, I've
tried what, you know, Gary has, has talked about I
used to be involved in Exodus International or I used
to be involved in this ministry or that ministry. And
and yet it is we aren't called to try something,
even for a long period of time. We're called to
give our lives to something and and to really lean
(41:46):
into again, to lift my. I was just navel gazing
for decades of my life. Uh, and so caught up
in my own brokenness. But when God began to heal
and grow and transform me, a lot of what happened
is he lifted my head and began to give me
this eternal perspective, this idea. I mean, it's such a
(42:07):
rich and amazing thing that also minimizes the pull of
sin and the pull of addiction. When we realize how
powerfully God can use us by his mercy and grace,
he doesn't need us, but how powerfully he invites us
into eternal value and perspectives, and allows us to be
a part of what he's doing in the universe. I mean,
(42:29):
that's just that's just crazy and all of the most
glorious ways possible. And yeah, so that does help us reduce,
I think, the our tendency of navel gazing, which only
then reinforces how I feel. And when we get stuck
in that loop, it can feel like I've just been
doing this for years and years. And I don't know
how you got through this, Gary, but but I'm still
(42:49):
stuck here. I still believe that God is transforming lives
for everyone who will yield to him and find those
kind of churches where people want to walk alongside you
and want to be a part of your community, that, um,
that strengthens you. And it wasn't just that I was
their project. They they opened themselves up to what I
had for them as well. And that's also part of
(43:10):
the power.
S1 (43:11):
Kerry, what do you say to the person? And thank
you for addressing that person who says, I was where
you were, but I can't get past it. Talk to
me about that idea of submitting on one level, that
that's a very frightening thing to a lot of people,
because in so doing, you're not sure how you're going
to come out on the other side, how you're going
to be identified. Wait a minute, is Jesus enough? If
I submit my identity to him, can he truly fill
(43:34):
me up to the edges of my skin? Talk to
that person. What would you say?
S7 (43:38):
Yeah, I mean, the idea of surrender, that's where it's
really at, is we have to come to a point
of recognizing, how is this working for me? I've been
beating my head against the same wall over and over
and over again. I'm not getting anywhere on my own
strength or even trying to do it the Christian way.
It's it's really in surrender and putting all my chips there,
putting everything there. And and that's where life really begins.
S5 (44:02):
Wow.
S1 (44:03):
Great conversation Gary. That hour went far too quickly. Thank
you so very much. And it is my fervent prayer
that you heard something this hour from Gary's heart. That
really is a challenge for you. If you're stuck in
that place where you're trapped a bi cultural Christianity, and
as a result of that, you're struggling with your identity
because you don't yet have an authentic faith in Jesus.
There's a whole lot of stuff there. And Gary spoke
(44:25):
on multiple levels this hour. May you be encouraged by
something that he's heard to move you forward into that transparent, authentic,
affirming relationship with Jesus Christ. Being affirmed that you were
made in his image, affirmed that he will give you
your identity in him. We live and move and have
our being. Check out Gary's book, It's There on our
(44:45):
information page. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next
time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.
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