June 16, 2025 • 44 mins
Narcissism is ugly, dangerous, and abusive, and it is not gender specific. We will open the phones as we talk with Laurel Slade-Waggoner about narcissism and start with the question: Can women have this personality disorder as well as men? How does a Christian respond to a narcissist? How can someone protect their mental, emotional, and spiritual health from a narcissist? Get your dialing fingers ready as the lines light up with questions on narcissism.
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S1 (00:00):
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S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
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The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:21):
Hi, friends. Welcome to in the Market with Janet Parshall.
Get those dialing fingers ready because we're going to take
up that ugly, awful, terrible wounding topic of narcissism. And
we're going to do it as long as the phone
lines keep lighting up. And you know what? Let the
record reflect, your honor. They light up every time. Laurel
Slade Wagner comes to visit. (877) 548-3675. Questions only (877) 548-3675. But
(02:46):
any question you've got on the topic of narcissism. Now,
let me just say a couple of opening remarks before
I bring in my sweet friend Laurel Slade Wagner. I
got to tell you, this is this is insidious. You know,
I'm going to give you a movie reference. This is
how my Mickey Mouse mind works. Remember the movie with
Charlton Heston and the Ten Commandments? How was the Angel
of death portrayed? Right. It's this green fog that works
(03:07):
its way through the streets. Right? And it passes by
the house where the blood has been spread over the
top of the lintel. The framework of the door and
the angel of death passed by. That's why it's called Passover.
And it's really this brilliant Cecil B DeMille way of
showing death, this green smoke that slithers under the front door.
That's narcissism in my world. It slithers into somebody's life
(03:30):
without them knowing it. It's not like a Pixar cartoon
with a one man band coming, and he's playing, you know, drums,
and he's blowing a harmonica, and he's got a trumpet
that he plays and all of this at the same time.
And oh, here comes the brass band. Oh, it's anything but.
It is subtlety, its smoothness, its sophistication, its suave Ebola.
It's getting the skin off a snake before you even
know you've been skinned. It's terrible. It's absolutely an awful
(03:54):
sinful condition, and it causes abuse and it causes pain
and it causes drama, and it brings about generational impact.
It's not to be trifled with. And so we're going
to talk about it because first of all, if you
pay any attention at all, we live in a world
that's just growing, almost like in a lab somewhere. We're
growing narcissists. I'm an influencer. I'm going to show you
how I can put my eye makeup on, or I'm
(04:16):
going to show you my cats because my cat's the
most important thing in the world, and you need to
see it on that thing. That sounds like a breath mint.
I'm not even going to give them free publicity. The
bottom line is now, when you're an influencer, by the way,
did they vote somewhere? Did they give you that title
because you won it somewhere? It's a self subscribed term
I am influencing you. Tell me that doesn't smack of narcissism.
(04:38):
So there's clearly an uptick of what's going on in
our culture because there's so much self-aggrandizement. Give somebody a
computer or a smartphone and man, the next thing you know,
you got millions of followers. Ipso facto, you must be
important because our worth is found in how many thumbs
up you get, how many likes, how many reposts you get. Ooh, dangerous, challenging,
interesting times. But it's really given rise to even more narcissists.
(05:01):
And the problem is they don't show up in a uniform. Okay?
They come in and they can be subtle and they
can love bomb you, and they can be the deacons
in the church, and they just seem all the most
wonderful person in the world. And you get home and
the mask comes off and then the abuse begins. But
you don't show up in the pastor's office with a
black eye or a broken arm, but you have wounds
in the heart that are absolutely unbearable. And you keep
(05:23):
thinking to yourself, I want to honor the Lord. I
want to do what's right, but you're being continually abused, gaslit, triangulated,
you name it. All of these fancy words that come
out of the DSM and Psychology Today that are really
manipulations to control another human being. And what happens to
the victim? Well, they just think there's something wrong with them.
(05:44):
Maybe if I just changed, maybe things would improve. Then
God brings up people like Laurel who can say, I've
been there, raised by narcissistic parents. My first husband was
a narcissist. I can tell you the impact it has
on our children, and I can tell you the damage
that it's done. But in the meantime, she goes along
and she gets a bunch of initials after her name
becomes a board certified professional Christian counselor, a licensed mental
(06:06):
health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's been
in Florida having a private practice for nigh on two decades.
She writes books on the topic. She does a podcast
called help! I have a narcissist in my life, and
she's getting calls from all over the country for people
who are dealing with exactly what I just described. Hence
the reason the phone light up every time Laurel comes.
You need that number again? I thought so. 87754836758775483675. Any question?
(06:34):
You've got the two books that Laurel has written are
called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. Subtitle. How
to Stay Sane and Strong. When the narcissist in your
life is trying to control or abuse you, I got
all my info page. Uh, the second book is called uh.
Don't let Their crazy Make your kids crazy how to
shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation.
And again, the free podcast is called help! I have
(06:56):
a narcissist in my life. And if you want to
go deeper professionally, privately, I have a link to Laurel's website.
You can set that up and do it in a personal, private,
professional vein rather than just asking a question on there.
So all of that's there for you. Resource. We're pretty
serious about this topic because you know what? Spring cleaning. Well,
sometimes you do spring cleaning even in mid-summer. And we're
lifting up the shades. We're turning back the carpet. The
(07:17):
cockroaches are going to come out. We're going to do
some housekeeping. So, Laurel, I made a statement and I
want to see from your vantage point as a clinician,
as a counselor, if, in fact, culturally, we're not having, um,
almost harvesting farms full of narcissists. Uh, part of that
is where we are as we're moving forward to Jesus's
imminent return. Part of that is lovers of self. Part
(07:40):
of that is taking Christ out of the equation. So
who's going to sit on the throne of your life,
but you as the influencer? And then all of these
things are coupled together, and then you've got the fact
that for the longest period of time we said in
the church, oh, it's just selfishness. Give me your reaction
to this.
S5 (07:57):
It's just nauseating to me and it's heartbreaking. So thank
you once again for having me on Janet. It's just
means so much to me that you have such a
heart for these victims, because what you were saying earlier
happens so many times. You were describing what a lot
of my clients go through, that covert narcissism where they
(08:18):
they look really good. They might be a deacon, they
might be a very altruistic out in the community. But
behind closed doors there's somebody very, very different. And our
culture is feeding that sense of entitlement, feeding that, that
need to be treated as if you're special. And so
it is. It's just I think it's getting so much worse.
(08:40):
And and it's just the victims. They really just don't
have anywhere to go. The church is supposed to be
a safe place, but a lot of my clients, they
get marginalized even within the church because they don't have
those bruises, or they don't have somebody that's addicted or
somebody that is repetitively cheating on them. Um, so those victims,
(09:02):
they they get marginalized, they get disregarded within the church.
And so I'm just so thankful that that you're giving
them a voice and victims can call in and and
get some wisdom.
S1 (09:13):
Dear friend, that's you. That's not me. I just facilitate
the conversation. You've got the compassion, you've got the gravitas,
the ethos, and you've got the pain. You've been there.
So you're speaking from your heart and your head and
always from the Bible, which I think is so crucial.
So be patient as we get your call stack. Because
once again, a lot of people online. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner,
(09:35):
our guest for the entire hour. She's so precious and
the gift of her time just gives and gives and gives.
And it's our topic for the entire hour. But you
lead it. You get to ask the questions. She'll give
the answer. 75483675. We'll take your calls right after this.
(09:57):
Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply?
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(10:18):
7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Our topic is narcissism.
And we are taking your calls at 87754836758775483675. Sherry, I'm
going to start with you in Florida. Thanks for stopping by.
(10:39):
Your question please. Sherry you are.
S6 (10:44):
Thank you. Yes. I'm here. I didn't hear the first part.
I wasn't sure it was me. Sorry.
S1 (10:48):
That's quite all right.
S6 (10:49):
Welcome. Question is, how can you be a psych major?
Work in medicine for 30 years, and you meet someone
and they are the most charming, polite, gentleman, knowledgeable, well-read
business person. And they turn out after 5 or 6
years like an onion. Layers begin to peel away and
you start to see this other person. Um, I just
(11:12):
divorced one after 15 years and I had no idea
what was wrong with him. I thought part of the
problem was his body, because he was having back surgeries
left and right and physical problems. So you kind of
discount things. You think, oh, maybe the pain or this
or that, because you could literally see color him turning
beet red at times from pain. So I assumed it
(11:33):
was pain. I never thought about narcissism come to turn out.
It was in fact, a narcissist. Um, he began to
borrow everything I had, inheritances, um, my clothing and things disappeared.
I went home for my father's birthday in 2019, and, uh,
came home and, um, everything was different. It was like
(11:55):
a different person in our home. I began getting worried. People,
my friends were telling me, stay away from the balcony.
We lived on the second floor on the beach, um,
in a condo. They didn't know each other, my two friends.
But we'd been friends since seventh grade, and they both
told me they were afraid he was going to throw
me off the balcony and try to do me in
because of the things he'd been doing. He started, um,
(12:18):
driving at night when we would go out to dinner
with people 95 miles an hour after dinner after we
dropped them off.
S1 (12:25):
Sherry, let me stop you. Only because I've got every
line lit, so. And you've laid this. You did a
beautiful job of laying the background and some of the
horrific things you've had to deal with. Is there a
specific question that Laurel can help you with?
S6 (12:37):
How can you be sure that you do not repeat it?
S7 (12:41):
They're very good.
S6 (12:42):
Actors. Some of.
S7 (12:43):
Them. Mhm.
S1 (12:43):
Yeah that's a great question.
S5 (12:46):
It sure is a great question. And Sherry I just
I think our Heavenly Father that you were able to
break free from all of that narcissistic abuse because not
a lot of people have the courage to do that.
Not a lot of people have the ability to do
that for one reason or another. So I think the
Lord that you were able to do that and what
you were describing is very, very typical. So in the beginning,
(13:09):
they're not going to show their real colors. So narcissists
learn how to get better at being narcissistic over time
so they know what people respond to positively. They know
what kinds of manipulation works for them. And so they
gather all of this information, and it helps them to
become more and more narcissistic and better at hiding that
(13:30):
narcissism in the beginning. So they'll love Bomb you. Then
after you've been with them over a period of time,
then they'll start to reveal their true character. And so
that's exactly what you experienced. And so there is I
there's a lot of healing to do if you want
to make sure that you don't repeat history. You self-reflect,
(13:52):
you pray to God you that those search me and
know me Lord. Um, you figure out, okay, so why
in the world was I picking somebody narcissistic? There's lots
of different reasons. Sometimes people are raised in really loving, stable, um,
Christ centered homes, and it's just not part of their upbringing.
(14:13):
They're just not even really aware that it's out there.
And so they get blindsided. They get mesmerized by someone
who is very charming and successful. So they just don't understand.
That's why really, at the heart of my ministry, I
want to help people understand what Matthew 1016, I think
it's Matthew 1016 talks about is we need to be
(14:34):
innocent as doves and shrewd as serpents. We need to
understand Stand a biblical foolishness and wicked behavior. All those
things that God talks about, we call modern day narcissism.
And so you self-reflect. You learn why you picked. Pick
somebody who's narcissistic. Another reason is this is my reality
is I grew up in narcissism. So what was familiar
(14:58):
to me, I thought was attraction, but it's actually called
repetition compulsion. I wasn't really attracted to it as much
as I felt comfortable around it, because it was familiar
to me. And then also, this is my reality, part
of my own brokenness. I'm very shy, introverted person, and
so I was attracted to those grandiose, very super successful
(15:20):
narcissists because I could be an extension of them. I
could laugh at all their jokes. I didn't have to
grow out of my shy shell. So, um, so my
woundedness contributed to it. So you can work with a
really good Christian counselor who specializes in trauma recovery, and
that person can help you kind of go through your
(15:41):
life story and figure out what led to this. And
then I say, you have to do a lot of
learning about healthy relationship dynamics and see what a narcissist,
what something that narcissists do. They cannot tolerate being out
of control. They cannot tolerate being told no. So I,
I tell people when you're exploring new friendships or you're dating, um,
(16:04):
say something that is a no to them very early on,
see how they handle your no. Do they try to
talk you out of your. No. Do they accept it,
understand where you're coming from and and really want the
best for you? Um, you'll start to see you'll grow
these narcissistic antennas. I call them, where you're just able
to spot those unhealthy dynamics and those, um, lack of
(16:27):
mutuality that are present in a healthy relationship, that mutual respect,
that mutual honesty, that mutual effort, um, and mutual ability
to repent. Say sorry. Genuinely say sorry. Change behavior, and
move forward for the good of everyone in the relationship
and for the good of the relationship. So I don't
want people to think, if you've had a narcissist in
(16:49):
your life, that you're doomed to keep picking them. We're
not with with God's grace and forgiveness and God's people
and just all of the information that's out there and
how God wants us to interact with each other. You
won't fill your life with narcissists anymore.
S1 (17:06):
May you be encouraged by that response. Sharon, thank you
so much for being a part of this conversation. I
truly appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. And that's what this hour is
all about. You call with your questions and Laurel Slade
Wagner will answer them as we deal with the topic
of narcissism. So be patient again as my team stacks
your call because we will get you on the air. (877) 548-3675.
(17:28):
And don't forget Laurel has a free podcast. Help! I
have a narcissist in my life. Go to wherever you
find your podcast. You can download that and that's a
great resource for you. A couple of books that she's written. Excellent.
All of that's on the information page. Go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. Red box right under the
hours description. Click it on takes you to the info page.
More of your calls right after this. Board certified Christian
(17:58):
counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is with us particular emphasis on narcissism,
not just this hour, but in her practice. She does
a fabulous job of comforting. People have really been wounded
by this abusive personality disorder. (877) 548-3675. Brenda, you've been in Ohio.
I so appreciate your patience and I'd love your question, please.
S8 (18:18):
Oh, thanks for taking my call. I have an employee who, um,
I just thought was having lots and lots of problems. Um,
and I've always tried to help her, um, even as
far as allowing her to live with me when she
was having some problems with an abusive husband. Um, she
(18:39):
has three children. She's not the best employee and I've
just always tried to help her. But now I'm feeling
that it's a narcissistic personality that, um, she. She says
bad things about me behind my back. Um, she doesn't
recognize my authority. I mean, I'm her boss, but she
(19:03):
doesn't recognize it. I, I don't know. I'm not sure
how to deal with her that.
S5 (19:10):
You know what, Brenda? You you brought something up that's
so important. Because a lot of people who are narcissistic,
they do take advantage of the fact that we have
Christ in our heart, and we want to please him,
and we want to, um, extend help to other people. So, um,
looking at her behavior. It's she's capitalizing on your good
(19:37):
heartedness and your love for Christ and your love for people.
And so that has to change. And so kind of
putting her on a plan of change. You are her
employer and it sounds like you're also her landlord. So
it sounds like you have different positions of authority. So
(19:58):
you can let her know that you you care for
her very deeply. You want to help her, but you
can no longer invest more than she's investing in herself.
And so laying out, I call it a Joshua 2415
plan of change because Joshua 2415 says, if serving the
(20:18):
Lord is undesirable to you, you are free to choose
what God you serve, whether it's the gods of your
ancestors or the gods of the living land. But as
for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord.
And so that's where you want to make sure that
you're you're loving her and you're giving her opportunity to
invest in herself and get back on her feet. But
(20:39):
you're not going to enable her to stay stagnant and
to to not become what God wants her to become.
We're we're called to carry our own loads in the Bible.
And so you're you're helping her move toward that by
setting these boundaries and getting her on a move out plan. Um,
(21:01):
helping her launch back into being self-sufficient. That's the most
loving thing that you can do for her. Instead of
continuing to support her, especially if she's saying just disrespectful
things behind your back, and she doesn't recognize the fact
that you are in a position of authority. So you
(21:22):
have these dual relationships with her, and so you have
to invite her into this plan of change. Give her
her free will. If she doesn't want to work that
plan of change, then you're going to have to figure
out how you're going to part ways, um, even sooner
than you anticipated. And and just so that, you know,
that is so loving, that is loving her like God
(21:44):
loves all of us and giving her the best shot
of becoming what God wants her to be.
S1 (21:51):
Thank you, Brenda so much for being a part of
the conversation. Truly appreciate your question as well. George in Illinois,
thanks for stopping by. Your question, please. Hi, George.
S9 (22:04):
Hello. How are you?
S1 (22:05):
I'm well, thank you. You're on the air. Please go ahead.
S9 (22:07):
Yes, yes, yes. I actually had a quick question. How can, uh,
churches protect themselves from narcissistic pastors? I've been experiencing. And
I know someone who actually approached a pastor about his
narcissistic behavior, but because he's been there for so long
and established at that church for so long, it's kind
of difficult to help a pastor understand that he should
(22:28):
change his ways about the way he's preaching sermons, or
more about him than Christ. Um, what can we do
to help the church understand that this can be a
severe problem in narcissistic?
S5 (22:40):
Yes, it can be. And it is a big problem.
We are seeing a lot of narcissism in pastors and
worship leaders and people in positions of authority and at churches.
And so, um, I'm not a pastor. I did not
go to seminary. Um, but I would love it if
(23:01):
seminary would teach, uh, church leadership and teach churches how
to set up organizational systems so that there's checks and balances.
So one person doesn't have all the decision making power. So, um,
what do you do if there's a pastor who is
sitting in some way? Churches need a system. They need
(23:24):
some kind of organizational organizational structure so they can utilize
that that beautiful process. Scripture in Matthew 1815 through 17
that says, if your brother sins against you, go and
work it out between the two of you. If they
will not listen, then you bring the witnesses. They still
won't listen. Then you bring it to the church or
the leadership board and they still won't listen. Then you
(23:46):
treat them like a pagan or a tax collector, which
means you part ways. Um, so I would love, I
would encourage all churches to set up systems of checks
and balances where one person doesn't have all that decision
making power. So find find some people within the church,
get a board going. There's we've just got to take
the power out of one person's hands. I would say
(24:08):
that's the biggest thing.
S1 (24:10):
George, I bet you took a lot away from that.
Thank you for the question. I think you were probably
speaking for more people than we'd like to believe. So
thank you for the question. 877 Because George's line is
now open. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner is with us for
the entire hour. One topic narcissism in all its iterations
and the way in which it intersects with our lives.
(24:31):
So this is your opportunity to get a great answer
from a woman who really knows this. Don't forget. Also
have a direct link to her website if you want
to talk to her privately and professionally and go much
deeper with your personal situation. You can do that through
the website which sits right there on our information page.
This is in the market with Janet Parshall. More with
Laurel right after this. How do you keep your finger
(24:59):
on the pulse of America while listening to the heartbeat
of God's Word? On in the market, we look for
God's perspective on current events, become a partial partner today,
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for you. You'll get behind the scenes Intel from my
email to yours. Call 877 Janet, 58, or go online
(25:20):
to in the market with Janet Dot org. If you're
just joining us, the warmest of welcomes and because of
the modern technology, you didn't miss a thing. Just go
to your favorite podcast site and download in the market
with Janet Parshall. Pick today's date and our conversation with
Laurel Slade Wagner and our topic, narcissism. Laurel, of course,
is a board certified Professional Christian counselor, a licensed marriage
(25:43):
and health family health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist.
Been in Florida close to two decades. Private practice. I've
got a link to her website on the information page.
If you want to talk privately and professionally with her,
you can set that up a couple of books I
want to point out. Don't let their crazy make you crazy.
How to stay sane and strong. When the narcissists in
your life is trying to control or abuse you. Linked
(26:05):
on my info page. And also don't let their crazy
make your kids crazy. How to shield your children from
their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. And don't forget, she
also has a great free podcast called help! I have
a narcissist in my life. 483675. That is our number. (877) 548-3675.
And as is always the case. Which is why Laurel
(26:27):
and I are going to keep going. Every line is lit.
So be patient when you hear me say goodbye. The
line opens up, but calling quick because they're being replaced immediately.
You have been so patient in Illinois, Rob. I appreciate
it more than you can know. Welcome to the conversation
in your question, please.
S10 (26:41):
Well thank you. It's actually Bob, but.
S7 (26:43):
Oh.
S1 (26:43):
Bob, forgive.
S10 (26:43):
Me. On the other side of this, I'm actually the narcissist. And, uh,
after 68 years, I've realized my self-centeredness is more than
just that and decades of being married. I hear the
other side. But how do I. How do I change?
S5 (27:00):
Bob. Oh my goodness, I'm so excited that you called in. So, um,
I appreciate your humility and and taking ownership. That is definitely.
Those two qualities are definitely not qualities we see in
someone who has a personality disorder. Um, but I appreciate
the fact that you're you're self-reflecting and you're wanting to change.
(27:24):
And so, um, I would say learn about healthy relationships,
get into some really good counseling, um, get a band
of brothers that can walk through this with you. Um,
a good book to read is I don't know if
you've heard of Dallas Willard, but he has a fabulous
book called renovation of the heart. And so that book
(27:47):
can kind of walk you through what, um, a person of,
of godly character is. So that's a really good read.
It's a hard read, but it's a it's well worth it. Um,
there's all kinds of, of organizations. Um, there's you can
get into a Bible study at a church, there's organizations, um,
(28:10):
like Trace Diaz or Walk to Emmaus, where you can
develop a really, really solid band of brothers to do
life with and to hold each other accountable for these
changes that you want to make. I encourage you, um,
if to do moral inventories and to people you, uh,
(28:30):
God brings to mind that you hurt. Write them letters
of apology. Take ownership. Um, make amends. Show them how
you've changed. Be non-defensive. Uh, moving forward. Show them how
they can trust you again. Be patient if that takes
a really long time. Um, just all of these different
things to to keep this, uh, to build fruit in
(28:54):
keeping with repentance like the Bible talks about.
S1 (28:58):
I hope that's an encouragement. Bob, thank you for being
a part of this conversation. How precious to hear a
man who really wants to change. And I'm glad you
gave him some hope, Laurel, because you don't have to
stay where you are. And that's a good encouragement. 87754836758775483675.
Cathy in Pennsylvania, welcome. And your question, please.
S11 (29:19):
Hi, Janet. My, um, so first of all, thank you
for taking my call. And I'm excited about, um, talking
with Laurel and I. My my question is, I have
a friend. Um, it's a friend and family, um, whom
we love, who is affected and abused daily by a
narcissistic co-leader at work. And we listen, we hurt, um,
(29:44):
but we've been hearing the same stories of abuse for years.
We want to stand with the person, but we, our
friend and family. But we don't know how to anymore.
Even to, um, the point of this person has affected
our friend and family, so much so that they're contemplating suicide.
S7 (30:07):
Um.
S5 (30:08):
Oh my goodness. So she she needs some help. Your
your friend definitely needs some help. She's stuck. She doesn't
know what to do. So she's at that place of, uh,
being trauma bonded. What they call it. They call it
trauma bonded because she's. She's just in this place where
she's too afraid to make a change. She at some
(30:32):
level wants that affirmation of that narcissistic person. She's been
emotionally conditioned, um, that she will not be okay without
that person. And so she. This happens quite a bit.
She becomes paralyzed, and then all the people around her
love her, and they can't stand to see her continue
to allow herself to get abused. So, um, you've been
(30:55):
very patient. You've been resourcing of her, you've been giving
her love. So she needs to understand that there are
healthy relationships out there. She needs to learn about what
those are. She needs to understand that she's precious and
she was not created to be treated this way, and
she needs to understand that she's been emotionally conditioned to
(31:17):
stay in this position of paralysis, and so that it's
very common. And she needs help. And this is where
this tough love is going to be really hard to do.
But you love her too much to see her, um,
stay stuck. Of course. If, if, if she is suicidal, um,
you could do a well check. So if she says
(31:41):
that she's suicidal or she says she doesn't want to
live anymore, you take her at her word and you have,
you can call the emergency police and say, I just
want you to check on this person. She's articulated that,
you know, she might be suicidal, and they'll go do
a well check and just let her know that you
love her too much, that if you hear those words
(32:01):
from her, you're going to make sure that she gets
some help. Um, every time that she says that. So
sometimes people say that just out of exasperation. They're Exasperation.
They're not truly suicidal. They're just they just can't see
a way out of their pain. Um, so that's suicide,
what they call suicidal ideation. She just doesn't want to
(32:21):
be in her pain anymore. She doesn't necessarily want to
kill herself, but she she just doesn't see a way
out of her pain. Whatever it is, she needs to
know that you're serious about getting her the help that
she needs. And then if she won't help herself. That's
where you say we. We love you too much. There's
so many resources we've given you. There's Celebrate Recovery, where
(32:42):
you can, um, be with other sisters in Christ who
are going through what you're going through. Here's all these
readings about healthy relationships. Here's all these readings about narcissism.
Here's all these readings about abuse and counselors names. If
you have resources or you've done everything, and that's where
you're going to have to step back and say, we
this is just too painful for us to watch you,
(33:04):
not help yourself. We love you too much. Um, and
that might encourage her. Like, wow, okay, they love me
so much that they're they're willing to take a step
back just so that I would be okay. And, um,
and then pray and pray and pray that she gets connected.
S7 (33:21):
Mm.
S1 (33:22):
Cathy, thank you so much. What a good friend your
friend has in you. Thank you for being here. Pat
in Vermont. Welcome. Your question, please.
S12 (33:30):
Thank you. Um. God has lifted me out of a
marriage to a covert narcissist. And I am also autistic.
So I was wondering in your research if you found
anything linked between neurodiverse neurodivergent people and and a more
(33:51):
being more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse? And if so, why?
S5 (33:58):
Well, I would say that's not my area of expertise
of working with autism, but I would say that, um, whatever,
Whatever we struggle with, we have to look at what
vulnerability that creates for us. So, um, whatever symptoms that
you have within that disorder, what what is it specifically
(34:24):
that would prohibit you from being like I was talking
about before, innocent as a dove and shrewd as a serpent. So, um,
and figuring out how you can neutralize all of that.
So if it's something to do with a lack of
affect and, and not really having those intense feelings when
(34:45):
someone is, um, very abrasive toward you or shows you
a lack of empathy. This is just an example. I
don't know what you're struggling with, but let's say you're
struggling with the lack of affect, and and you don't
really feel that abrasion or you don't really feel that
offense when someone offends you, then you have to do
a lot of studying on a lack of empathy and
(35:07):
how that presents and what that does to people. And
so you start to learn from the outside in whatever
you're struggling with that you don't have from the inside out,
and you work with a professional counselor that can help
you get through all of that so that you do
not knit yourself together again with another narcissist. I praise
(35:28):
the Lord like I did with the other caller, that
God set you free from that abusive relationship with that
covert narcissist. And like I was saying, you are not alone.
That covert narcissism, it is so toxic and people suffer
so much and for so long behind closed doors, especially
within the church.
S1 (35:49):
Thank you, Pat, so very much for being with us,
I appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. We're going to take a break.
Come right back. Going right to the phones. As I
come up to this break, don't forget to check out
all the information that Laurel has for your perusal and
for your comfort and healing right there on our website
in the market with Janet Parshall. There's a description of
(36:10):
both of the hours we do every day. Underneath that
description is a red box. It says program details and audio.
Click that on. It'll take it over to the information page.
There's a longer bio for Laurel, a link to her
website again for your use, so that if you want
to talk to her privately and professionally, you can set
it up right through that website. On the right hand side,
there's the two books we've been talking about. And in addition,
(36:31):
don't forget she has a podcast entitled simply help! I
have a narcissist in my life. You can find that
wherever you go to find your podcast. So let me
take this break, come right back to the phones and
we'll get more answers from Laurel right after this. Certified
(36:52):
Christian Counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest as she
is monthly. As we take on this topic of narcissism.
And if you could see my screen, every single line
is lit, which says that I think we're tapping into
some pain. Pain that's not often articulated. You don't know
where to go to get answers. And boy, what a
safe place. If you've got a wonderful, compassionate, tender Christian
counselor in Laurel and she does a marvelous job of
(37:15):
not only offering resources, but gentle counsel as well, always,
always bathes in Scripture. Connie, thank you so much for
your patience in California. Your question please.
S13 (37:25):
Well, thank you so much for taking my call. I
need to know how to reestablish a relationship with my
grown daughter. Um, I am a victim of a narcissistic
ex-husband for 25 years. And in the breakup, she decided
(37:45):
to live with her father, and she has picked up
on his ways. And just recently, I decided that I
had to let her know my boundary limits. That she
cannot disrespect me down to my core like she did
by insulting what I believe in in Jesus Christ and
letting her know that I am her mother and not
(38:06):
somebody that she can mistreat.
S5 (38:11):
I'm so glad to hear you say that. You, you know,
at a heart level that you are precious and you
are not created to be treated with that disrespect. Even
if it's your own child who you love so much.
And and I see this going on so much that, um,
where the adult children are treating their non narcissistic parent
(38:36):
the same way that they're that narcissist treated that non
narcissistic parent. And so this is not something where you're alone.
There are many, many people that are struggling in the
same way that you are. And so I'm so glad
to hear you say that. You set the boundaries and
you have to grieve. You have to grieve the loss
(38:58):
of who you want her to be. You have to
grieve the loss of of who she is. That's, um,
not what God wants her to be. And so you
have to allow yourself to do all this grieving and
get to that place of acceptance. Like, okay, this is
who my daughter is at this point. Um, I raised
her up in the way in the Lord, and I'm
(39:19):
going to keep praying for her. And then you can
set up some prayerfully. Just pray through set up some
structure of, okay, I'm going to reach out, um, every
so often in this safe way to see if things
are different and to see if she's willing to work
on things. So for now, since you gave her that information,
(39:42):
that you're not going to let her treat her with disrespect,
then just prayerfully set up a structure. So, okay, how
am I going to reach out? Maybe send her a text, um,
send her something of interest that she likes if she
answers back with any kind of disrespect or condemnation. Or
if she doesn't answer you, then you say, okay, Lord,
(40:05):
thank you for revealing her character and where she is
currently and I'm just going to connect through her, connect
with her through prayer for now. And then you try again.
You know, maybe a month from now or three months, um,
you can also let her know what you're doing. You
can say, I'm going to reach out blank. I'm going
to reach out, uh, once a month, or I'm going
(40:26):
to reach out once a quarter. Whatever you decide on
and you you are revealing your character to her that way,
whether she likes it or not. So if you reveal, hey,
I'm going to do this, and then you're a woman
of follow through and you follow through on what you
told her you're going to do. Your character of integrity
(40:47):
is going to shine through. And so it's going to
impact her whether she acknowledges it to you or not
right now. And so that's that's what all you can do. Um,
from that standpoint, don't get into any divisive arguments with her. Don't, um,
discredit her father. She is under his spell, and for
(41:09):
whatever reason, she doesn't want to separate from him. She
doesn't see his toxic traits. And so, um, you just
pray that she does that. God reveals his true core
identity to her, and she recognizes it. And at the
same time, you're building that trust and you're revealing your
own character. And I just I believe so wholeheartedly that
(41:32):
we are all hardwired to desire what God has to give.
And so just being someone who exudes the the fruit
of the spirit and, and Christ's love, and that Christ's
love sometimes is full of boundaries, um, and consistency. So I,
I think she'll recognize Christ whether she wants to accept
(41:55):
it right now or not. But I think those are
the most powerful things you can do.
S1 (42:00):
Connie. Thank you. I hope you're encouraged by the answer,
I truly do. Sarah in Missouri, I want to get
your call in before the hour wraps up. Your question, please.
S14 (42:09):
So my question is, um, after 30 years, I know
it's time to leave, and I'm trying to come up
with a plan, and, um, I'm just struggling with. How
do you leave without feeling guilty and feeling sorry for them?
S5 (42:26):
Sarah, that's a great question. And that's what I work
on with the with a lot of my clients in
the phone advice sessions because you invite, like I was
saying a little bit earlier, you want to invite him
into a plan of change. Um, that Joshua 2415 plan
of change that I do have some of this information
in the first book. Um, don't let the crazy make
you crazy and the assertiveness chapter, but you invite them
(42:50):
into a plan of change. Um, I say do it
in writing. Um, you outline your needs in that plan
of change, you invite him into this and then give
him his free will. And if he doesn't, then that's
where you start using that redemptive tool of separation. And
it's not a punishment. The redemptive tool of separation is
(43:11):
to give him time and space so that he can
think about what you were saying and what your needs are,
and how to respond to those in a loving way.
So utilizing that redemptive tool of separation is all biblical.
It's all based on Matthew 1815 through 17 and in.
(43:31):
You're truly inviting him into a different way of life,
but you're not going to sit and let him continue
to abuse you any longer, because he's not really moving
toward God that way. He's not moving toward becoming who
God wants him to become, and nor can you, because
you're constantly having to pick yourself up from all those
abusive interactions and and you just can't focus on your
(43:55):
relationship with the God or the healthy other people in
your life if you're continuing to let him abuse you.
So I hope that helps, Sarah.
S1 (44:03):
I hope so too. Sarah, thank you so much for
being with us. To the rest of you, should the
Lord allow first, last and always. And if Laurel is able,
we'll do this again next month. So I'm so sorry
we didn't get to your call. Please know our hearts.
We are going to have these conversations as long as
you keep calling in, particularly at this volume level, because
it's an opportunity for you to let your voice be heard,
(44:24):
to know that you are precious. You haven't been forgotten
that God has a plan for your welfare. And so
I really appreciate your calling in and love the way
that with tenderness, Laurel Slade Wagner just keeps counseling you
as you walk through this. You are not alone. So
in the meantime, read her books. They're both there on
the website if you want to talk to her privately
and professionally, work that through the link to her direct
(44:45):
website for her practice in Florida as well. I thank you, Laurel,
so much from the bottom of my heart. And you, friends,
we'll see you next time on In the Market with
Janet Parshall.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
send it right off to you as my way of
saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
(01:26):
When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
Those are people who give every single month at a
level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool,
but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter
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my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website
in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial
(01:46):
partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:57):
America's worshiping government over God.
S1 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (02:03):
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:21):
Hi, friends. Welcome to in the Market with Janet Parshall.
Get those dialing fingers ready because we're going to take
up that ugly, awful, terrible wounding topic of narcissism. And
we're going to do it as long as the phone
lines keep lighting up. And you know what? Let the
record reflect, your honor. They light up every time. Laurel
Slade Wagner comes to visit. (877) 548-3675. Questions only (877) 548-3675. But
(02:46):
any question you've got on the topic of narcissism. Now,
let me just say a couple of opening remarks before
I bring in my sweet friend Laurel Slade Wagner. I
got to tell you, this is this is insidious. You know,
I'm going to give you a movie reference. This is
how my Mickey Mouse mind works. Remember the movie with
Charlton Heston and the Ten Commandments? How was the Angel
of death portrayed? Right. It's this green fog that works
(03:07):
its way through the streets. Right? And it passes by
the house where the blood has been spread over the
top of the lintel. The framework of the door and
the angel of death passed by. That's why it's called Passover.
And it's really this brilliant Cecil B DeMille way of
showing death, this green smoke that slithers under the front door.
That's narcissism in my world. It slithers into somebody's life
(03:30):
without them knowing it. It's not like a Pixar cartoon
with a one man band coming, and he's playing, you know, drums,
and he's blowing a harmonica, and he's got a trumpet
that he plays and all of this at the same time.
And oh, here comes the brass band. Oh, it's anything but.
It is subtlety, its smoothness, its sophistication, its suave Ebola.
It's getting the skin off a snake before you even
know you've been skinned. It's terrible. It's absolutely an awful
(03:54):
sinful condition, and it causes abuse and it causes pain
and it causes drama, and it brings about generational impact.
It's not to be trifled with. And so we're going
to talk about it because first of all, if you
pay any attention at all, we live in a world
that's just growing, almost like in a lab somewhere. We're
growing narcissists. I'm an influencer. I'm going to show you
how I can put my eye makeup on, or I'm
(04:16):
going to show you my cats because my cat's the
most important thing in the world, and you need to
see it on that thing. That sounds like a breath mint.
I'm not even going to give them free publicity. The
bottom line is now, when you're an influencer, by the way,
did they vote somewhere? Did they give you that title
because you won it somewhere? It's a self subscribed term
I am influencing you. Tell me that doesn't smack of narcissism.
(04:38):
So there's clearly an uptick of what's going on in
our culture because there's so much self-aggrandizement. Give somebody a
computer or a smartphone and man, the next thing you know,
you got millions of followers. Ipso facto, you must be
important because our worth is found in how many thumbs
up you get, how many likes, how many reposts you get. Ooh, dangerous, challenging,
interesting times. But it's really given rise to even more narcissists.
(05:01):
And the problem is they don't show up in a uniform. Okay?
They come in and they can be subtle and they
can love bomb you, and they can be the deacons
in the church, and they just seem all the most
wonderful person in the world. And you get home and
the mask comes off and then the abuse begins. But
you don't show up in the pastor's office with a
black eye or a broken arm, but you have wounds
in the heart that are absolutely unbearable. And you keep
(05:23):
thinking to yourself, I want to honor the Lord. I
want to do what's right, but you're being continually abused, gaslit, triangulated,
you name it. All of these fancy words that come
out of the DSM and Psychology Today that are really
manipulations to control another human being. And what happens to
the victim? Well, they just think there's something wrong with them.
(05:44):
Maybe if I just changed, maybe things would improve. Then
God brings up people like Laurel who can say, I've
been there, raised by narcissistic parents. My first husband was
a narcissist. I can tell you the impact it has
on our children, and I can tell you the damage
that it's done. But in the meantime, she goes along
and she gets a bunch of initials after her name
becomes a board certified professional Christian counselor, a licensed mental
(06:06):
health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's been
in Florida having a private practice for nigh on two decades.
She writes books on the topic. She does a podcast
called help! I have a narcissist in my life, and
she's getting calls from all over the country for people
who are dealing with exactly what I just described. Hence
the reason the phone light up every time Laurel comes.
You need that number again? I thought so. 87754836758775483675. Any question?
(06:34):
You've got the two books that Laurel has written are
called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. Subtitle. How
to Stay Sane and Strong. When the narcissist in your
life is trying to control or abuse you, I got
all my info page. Uh, the second book is called uh.
Don't let Their crazy Make your kids crazy how to
shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation.
And again, the free podcast is called help! I have
(06:56):
a narcissist in my life. And if you want to
go deeper professionally, privately, I have a link to Laurel's website.
You can set that up and do it in a personal, private,
professional vein rather than just asking a question on there.
So all of that's there for you. Resource. We're pretty
serious about this topic because you know what? Spring cleaning. Well,
sometimes you do spring cleaning even in mid-summer. And we're
lifting up the shades. We're turning back the carpet. The
(07:17):
cockroaches are going to come out. We're going to do
some housekeeping. So, Laurel, I made a statement and I
want to see from your vantage point as a clinician,
as a counselor, if, in fact, culturally, we're not having, um,
almost harvesting farms full of narcissists. Uh, part of that
is where we are as we're moving forward to Jesus's
imminent return. Part of that is lovers of self. Part
(07:40):
of that is taking Christ out of the equation. So
who's going to sit on the throne of your life,
but you as the influencer? And then all of these
things are coupled together, and then you've got the fact
that for the longest period of time we said in
the church, oh, it's just selfishness. Give me your reaction
to this.
S5 (07:57):
It's just nauseating to me and it's heartbreaking. So thank
you once again for having me on Janet. It's just
means so much to me that you have such a
heart for these victims, because what you were saying earlier
happens so many times. You were describing what a lot
of my clients go through, that covert narcissism where they
(08:18):
they look really good. They might be a deacon, they
might be a very altruistic out in the community. But
behind closed doors there's somebody very, very different. And our
culture is feeding that sense of entitlement, feeding that, that
need to be treated as if you're special. And so
it is. It's just I think it's getting so much worse.
(08:40):
And and it's just the victims. They really just don't
have anywhere to go. The church is supposed to be
a safe place, but a lot of my clients, they
get marginalized even within the church because they don't have
those bruises, or they don't have somebody that's addicted or
somebody that is repetitively cheating on them. Um, so those victims,
(09:02):
they they get marginalized, they get disregarded within the church.
And so I'm just so thankful that that you're giving
them a voice and victims can call in and and
get some wisdom.
S1 (09:13):
Dear friend, that's you. That's not me. I just facilitate
the conversation. You've got the compassion, you've got the gravitas,
the ethos, and you've got the pain. You've been there.
So you're speaking from your heart and your head and
always from the Bible, which I think is so crucial.
So be patient as we get your call stack. Because
once again, a lot of people online. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner,
(09:35):
our guest for the entire hour. She's so precious and
the gift of her time just gives and gives and gives.
And it's our topic for the entire hour. But you
lead it. You get to ask the questions. She'll give
the answer. 75483675. We'll take your calls right after this.
(09:57):
Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply?
Or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool
this month is a thought provoking book that explores those
moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have You
ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to
the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have
you ever wondered when you give a gift of any
amount to in the market, call eight 7758, that's eight
(10:18):
7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Our topic is narcissism.
And we are taking your calls at 87754836758775483675. Sherry, I'm
going to start with you in Florida. Thanks for stopping by.
(10:39):
Your question please. Sherry you are.
S6 (10:44):
Thank you. Yes. I'm here. I didn't hear the first part.
I wasn't sure it was me. Sorry.
S1 (10:48):
That's quite all right.
S6 (10:49):
Welcome. Question is, how can you be a psych major?
Work in medicine for 30 years, and you meet someone
and they are the most charming, polite, gentleman, knowledgeable, well-read
business person. And they turn out after 5 or 6
years like an onion. Layers begin to peel away and
you start to see this other person. Um, I just
(11:12):
divorced one after 15 years and I had no idea
what was wrong with him. I thought part of the
problem was his body, because he was having back surgeries
left and right and physical problems. So you kind of
discount things. You think, oh, maybe the pain or this
or that, because you could literally see color him turning
beet red at times from pain. So I assumed it
(11:33):
was pain. I never thought about narcissism come to turn out.
It was in fact, a narcissist. Um, he began to
borrow everything I had, inheritances, um, my clothing and things disappeared.
I went home for my father's birthday in 2019, and, uh,
came home and, um, everything was different. It was like
(11:55):
a different person in our home. I began getting worried. People,
my friends were telling me, stay away from the balcony.
We lived on the second floor on the beach, um,
in a condo. They didn't know each other, my two friends.
But we'd been friends since seventh grade, and they both
told me they were afraid he was going to throw
me off the balcony and try to do me in
because of the things he'd been doing. He started, um,
(12:18):
driving at night when we would go out to dinner
with people 95 miles an hour after dinner after we
dropped them off.
S1 (12:25):
Sherry, let me stop you. Only because I've got every
line lit, so. And you've laid this. You did a
beautiful job of laying the background and some of the
horrific things you've had to deal with. Is there a
specific question that Laurel can help you with?
S6 (12:37):
How can you be sure that you do not repeat it?
S7 (12:41):
They're very good.
S6 (12:42):
Actors. Some of.
S7 (12:43):
Them. Mhm.
S1 (12:43):
Yeah that's a great question.
S5 (12:46):
It sure is a great question. And Sherry I just
I think our Heavenly Father that you were able to
break free from all of that narcissistic abuse because not
a lot of people have the courage to do that.
Not a lot of people have the ability to do
that for one reason or another. So I think the
Lord that you were able to do that and what
you were describing is very, very typical. So in the beginning,
(13:09):
they're not going to show their real colors. So narcissists
learn how to get better at being narcissistic over time
so they know what people respond to positively. They know
what kinds of manipulation works for them. And so they
gather all of this information, and it helps them to
become more and more narcissistic and better at hiding that
(13:30):
narcissism in the beginning. So they'll love Bomb you. Then
after you've been with them over a period of time,
then they'll start to reveal their true character. And so
that's exactly what you experienced. And so there is I
there's a lot of healing to do if you want
to make sure that you don't repeat history. You self-reflect,
(13:52):
you pray to God you that those search me and
know me Lord. Um, you figure out, okay, so why
in the world was I picking somebody narcissistic? There's lots
of different reasons. Sometimes people are raised in really loving, stable, um,
Christ centered homes, and it's just not part of their upbringing.
(14:13):
They're just not even really aware that it's out there.
And so they get blindsided. They get mesmerized by someone
who is very charming and successful. So they just don't understand.
That's why really, at the heart of my ministry, I
want to help people understand what Matthew 1016, I think
it's Matthew 1016 talks about is we need to be
(14:34):
innocent as doves and shrewd as serpents. We need to
understand Stand a biblical foolishness and wicked behavior. All those
things that God talks about, we call modern day narcissism.
And so you self-reflect. You learn why you picked. Pick
somebody who's narcissistic. Another reason is this is my reality
is I grew up in narcissism. So what was familiar
(14:58):
to me, I thought was attraction, but it's actually called
repetition compulsion. I wasn't really attracted to it as much
as I felt comfortable around it, because it was familiar
to me. And then also, this is my reality, part
of my own brokenness. I'm very shy, introverted person, and
so I was attracted to those grandiose, very super successful
(15:20):
narcissists because I could be an extension of them. I
could laugh at all their jokes. I didn't have to
grow out of my shy shell. So, um, so my
woundedness contributed to it. So you can work with a
really good Christian counselor who specializes in trauma recovery, and
that person can help you kind of go through your
(15:41):
life story and figure out what led to this. And
then I say, you have to do a lot of
learning about healthy relationship dynamics and see what a narcissist,
what something that narcissists do. They cannot tolerate being out
of control. They cannot tolerate being told no. So I,
I tell people when you're exploring new friendships or you're dating, um,
(16:04):
say something that is a no to them very early on,
see how they handle your no. Do they try to
talk you out of your. No. Do they accept it,
understand where you're coming from and and really want the
best for you? Um, you'll start to see you'll grow
these narcissistic antennas. I call them, where you're just able
to spot those unhealthy dynamics and those, um, lack of
(16:27):
mutuality that are present in a healthy relationship, that mutual respect,
that mutual honesty, that mutual effort, um, and mutual ability
to repent. Say sorry. Genuinely say sorry. Change behavior, and
move forward for the good of everyone in the relationship
and for the good of the relationship. So I don't
want people to think, if you've had a narcissist in
(16:49):
your life, that you're doomed to keep picking them. We're
not with with God's grace and forgiveness and God's people
and just all of the information that's out there and
how God wants us to interact with each other. You
won't fill your life with narcissists anymore.
S1 (17:06):
May you be encouraged by that response. Sharon, thank you
so much for being a part of this conversation. I
truly appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. And that's what this hour is
all about. You call with your questions and Laurel Slade
Wagner will answer them as we deal with the topic
of narcissism. So be patient again as my team stacks
your call because we will get you on the air. (877) 548-3675.
(17:28):
And don't forget Laurel has a free podcast. Help! I
have a narcissist in my life. Go to wherever you
find your podcast. You can download that and that's a
great resource for you. A couple of books that she's written. Excellent.
All of that's on the information page. Go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. Red box right under the
hours description. Click it on takes you to the info page.
More of your calls right after this. Board certified Christian
(17:58):
counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is with us particular emphasis on narcissism,
not just this hour, but in her practice. She does
a fabulous job of comforting. People have really been wounded
by this abusive personality disorder. (877) 548-3675. Brenda, you've been in Ohio.
I so appreciate your patience and I'd love your question, please.
S8 (18:18):
Oh, thanks for taking my call. I have an employee who, um,
I just thought was having lots and lots of problems. Um,
and I've always tried to help her, um, even as
far as allowing her to live with me when she
was having some problems with an abusive husband. Um, she
(18:39):
has three children. She's not the best employee and I've
just always tried to help her. But now I'm feeling
that it's a narcissistic personality that, um, she. She says
bad things about me behind my back. Um, she doesn't
recognize my authority. I mean, I'm her boss, but she
(19:03):
doesn't recognize it. I, I don't know. I'm not sure
how to deal with her that.
S5 (19:10):
You know what, Brenda? You you brought something up that's
so important. Because a lot of people who are narcissistic,
they do take advantage of the fact that we have
Christ in our heart, and we want to please him,
and we want to, um, extend help to other people. So, um,
looking at her behavior. It's she's capitalizing on your good
(19:37):
heartedness and your love for Christ and your love for people.
And so that has to change. And so kind of
putting her on a plan of change. You are her
employer and it sounds like you're also her landlord. So
it sounds like you have different positions of authority. So
(19:58):
you can let her know that you you care for
her very deeply. You want to help her, but you
can no longer invest more than she's investing in herself.
And so laying out, I call it a Joshua 2415
plan of change because Joshua 2415 says, if serving the
(20:18):
Lord is undesirable to you, you are free to choose
what God you serve, whether it's the gods of your
ancestors or the gods of the living land. But as
for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord.
And so that's where you want to make sure that
you're you're loving her and you're giving her opportunity to
invest in herself and get back on her feet. But
(20:39):
you're not going to enable her to stay stagnant and
to to not become what God wants her to become.
We're we're called to carry our own loads in the Bible.
And so you're you're helping her move toward that by
setting these boundaries and getting her on a move out plan. Um,
(21:01):
helping her launch back into being self-sufficient. That's the most
loving thing that you can do for her. Instead of
continuing to support her, especially if she's saying just disrespectful
things behind your back, and she doesn't recognize the fact
that you are in a position of authority. So you
(21:22):
have these dual relationships with her, and so you have
to invite her into this plan of change. Give her
her free will. If she doesn't want to work that
plan of change, then you're going to have to figure
out how you're going to part ways, um, even sooner
than you anticipated. And and just so that, you know,
that is so loving, that is loving her like God
(21:44):
loves all of us and giving her the best shot
of becoming what God wants her to be.
S1 (21:51):
Thank you, Brenda so much for being a part of
the conversation. Truly appreciate your question as well. George in Illinois,
thanks for stopping by. Your question, please. Hi, George.
S9 (22:04):
Hello. How are you?
S1 (22:05):
I'm well, thank you. You're on the air. Please go ahead.
S9 (22:07):
Yes, yes, yes. I actually had a quick question. How can, uh,
churches protect themselves from narcissistic pastors? I've been experiencing. And
I know someone who actually approached a pastor about his
narcissistic behavior, but because he's been there for so long
and established at that church for so long, it's kind
of difficult to help a pastor understand that he should
(22:28):
change his ways about the way he's preaching sermons, or
more about him than Christ. Um, what can we do
to help the church understand that this can be a
severe problem in narcissistic?
S5 (22:40):
Yes, it can be. And it is a big problem.
We are seeing a lot of narcissism in pastors and
worship leaders and people in positions of authority and at churches.
And so, um, I'm not a pastor. I did not
go to seminary. Um, but I would love it if
(23:01):
seminary would teach, uh, church leadership and teach churches how
to set up organizational systems so that there's checks and balances.
So one person doesn't have all the decision making power. So, um,
what do you do if there's a pastor who is
sitting in some way? Churches need a system. They need
(23:24):
some kind of organizational organizational structure so they can utilize
that that beautiful process. Scripture in Matthew 1815 through 17
that says, if your brother sins against you, go and
work it out between the two of you. If they
will not listen, then you bring the witnesses. They still
won't listen. Then you bring it to the church or
the leadership board and they still won't listen. Then you
(23:46):
treat them like a pagan or a tax collector, which
means you part ways. Um, so I would love, I
would encourage all churches to set up systems of checks
and balances where one person doesn't have all that decision
making power. So find find some people within the church,
get a board going. There's we've just got to take
the power out of one person's hands. I would say
(24:08):
that's the biggest thing.
S1 (24:10):
George, I bet you took a lot away from that.
Thank you for the question. I think you were probably
speaking for more people than we'd like to believe. So
thank you for the question. 877 Because George's line is
now open. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner is with us for
the entire hour. One topic narcissism in all its iterations
and the way in which it intersects with our lives.
(24:31):
So this is your opportunity to get a great answer
from a woman who really knows this. Don't forget. Also
have a direct link to her website if you want
to talk to her privately and professionally and go much
deeper with your personal situation. You can do that through
the website which sits right there on our information page.
This is in the market with Janet Parshall. More with
Laurel right after this. How do you keep your finger
(24:59):
on the pulse of America while listening to the heartbeat
of God's Word? On in the market, we look for
God's perspective on current events, become a partial partner today,
and keep this Christ centered program on the air. As
a benefit, you'll receive exclusive resources every week prepared just
for you. You'll get behind the scenes Intel from my
email to yours. Call 877 Janet, 58, or go online
(25:20):
to in the market with Janet Dot org. If you're
just joining us, the warmest of welcomes and because of
the modern technology, you didn't miss a thing. Just go
to your favorite podcast site and download in the market
with Janet Parshall. Pick today's date and our conversation with
Laurel Slade Wagner and our topic, narcissism. Laurel, of course,
is a board certified Professional Christian counselor, a licensed marriage
(25:43):
and health family health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist.
Been in Florida close to two decades. Private practice. I've
got a link to her website on the information page.
If you want to talk privately and professionally with her,
you can set that up a couple of books I
want to point out. Don't let their crazy make you crazy.
How to stay sane and strong. When the narcissists in
your life is trying to control or abuse you. Linked
(26:05):
on my info page. And also don't let their crazy
make your kids crazy. How to shield your children from
their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. And don't forget, she
also has a great free podcast called help! I have
a narcissist in my life. 483675. That is our number. (877) 548-3675.
And as is always the case. Which is why Laurel
(26:27):
and I are going to keep going. Every line is lit.
So be patient when you hear me say goodbye. The
line opens up, but calling quick because they're being replaced immediately.
You have been so patient in Illinois, Rob. I appreciate
it more than you can know. Welcome to the conversation
in your question, please.
S10 (26:41):
Well thank you. It's actually Bob, but.
S7 (26:43):
Oh.
S1 (26:43):
Bob, forgive.
S10 (26:43):
Me. On the other side of this, I'm actually the narcissist. And, uh,
after 68 years, I've realized my self-centeredness is more than
just that and decades of being married. I hear the
other side. But how do I. How do I change?
S5 (27:00):
Bob. Oh my goodness, I'm so excited that you called in. So, um,
I appreciate your humility and and taking ownership. That is definitely.
Those two qualities are definitely not qualities we see in
someone who has a personality disorder. Um, but I appreciate
the fact that you're you're self-reflecting and you're wanting to change.
(27:24):
And so, um, I would say learn about healthy relationships,
get into some really good counseling, um, get a band
of brothers that can walk through this with you. Um,
a good book to read is I don't know if
you've heard of Dallas Willard, but he has a fabulous
book called renovation of the heart. And so that book
(27:47):
can kind of walk you through what, um, a person of,
of godly character is. So that's a really good read.
It's a hard read, but it's a it's well worth it. Um,
there's all kinds of, of organizations. Um, there's you can
get into a Bible study at a church, there's organizations, um,
(28:10):
like Trace Diaz or Walk to Emmaus, where you can
develop a really, really solid band of brothers to do
life with and to hold each other accountable for these
changes that you want to make. I encourage you, um,
if to do moral inventories and to people you, uh,
(28:30):
God brings to mind that you hurt. Write them letters
of apology. Take ownership. Um, make amends. Show them how
you've changed. Be non-defensive. Uh, moving forward. Show them how
they can trust you again. Be patient if that takes
a really long time. Um, just all of these different
things to to keep this, uh, to build fruit in
(28:54):
keeping with repentance like the Bible talks about.
S1 (28:58):
I hope that's an encouragement. Bob, thank you for being
a part of this conversation. How precious to hear a
man who really wants to change. And I'm glad you
gave him some hope, Laurel, because you don't have to
stay where you are. And that's a good encouragement. 87754836758775483675.
Cathy in Pennsylvania, welcome. And your question, please.
S11 (29:19):
Hi, Janet. My, um, so first of all, thank you
for taking my call. And I'm excited about, um, talking
with Laurel and I. My my question is, I have
a friend. Um, it's a friend and family, um, whom
we love, who is affected and abused daily by a
narcissistic co-leader at work. And we listen, we hurt, um,
(29:44):
but we've been hearing the same stories of abuse for years.
We want to stand with the person, but we, our
friend and family. But we don't know how to anymore.
Even to, um, the point of this person has affected
our friend and family, so much so that they're contemplating suicide.
S7 (30:07):
Um.
S5 (30:08):
Oh my goodness. So she she needs some help. Your
your friend definitely needs some help. She's stuck. She doesn't
know what to do. So she's at that place of, uh,
being trauma bonded. What they call it. They call it
trauma bonded because she's. She's just in this place where
she's too afraid to make a change. She at some
(30:32):
level wants that affirmation of that narcissistic person. She's been
emotionally conditioned, um, that she will not be okay without
that person. And so she. This happens quite a bit.
She becomes paralyzed, and then all the people around her
love her, and they can't stand to see her continue
to allow herself to get abused. So, um, you've been
(30:55):
very patient. You've been resourcing of her, you've been giving
her love. So she needs to understand that there are
healthy relationships out there. She needs to learn about what
those are. She needs to understand that she's precious and
she was not created to be treated this way, and
she needs to understand that she's been emotionally conditioned to
(31:17):
stay in this position of paralysis, and so that it's
very common. And she needs help. And this is where
this tough love is going to be really hard to do.
But you love her too much to see her, um,
stay stuck. Of course. If, if, if she is suicidal, um,
you could do a well check. So if she says
(31:41):
that she's suicidal or she says she doesn't want to
live anymore, you take her at her word and you have,
you can call the emergency police and say, I just
want you to check on this person. She's articulated that,
you know, she might be suicidal, and they'll go do
a well check and just let her know that you
love her too much, that if you hear those words
(32:01):
from her, you're going to make sure that she gets
some help. Um, every time that she says that. So
sometimes people say that just out of exasperation. They're Exasperation.
They're not truly suicidal. They're just they just can't see
a way out of their pain. Um, so that's suicide,
what they call suicidal ideation. She just doesn't want to
(32:21):
be in her pain anymore. She doesn't necessarily want to
kill herself, but she she just doesn't see a way
out of her pain. Whatever it is, she needs to
know that you're serious about getting her the help that
she needs. And then if she won't help herself. That's
where you say we. We love you too much. There's
so many resources we've given you. There's Celebrate Recovery, where
(32:42):
you can, um, be with other sisters in Christ who
are going through what you're going through. Here's all these
readings about healthy relationships. Here's all these readings about narcissism.
Here's all these readings about abuse and counselors names. If
you have resources or you've done everything, and that's where
you're going to have to step back and say, we
this is just too painful for us to watch you,
(33:04):
not help yourself. We love you too much. Um, and
that might encourage her. Like, wow, okay, they love me
so much that they're they're willing to take a step
back just so that I would be okay. And, um,
and then pray and pray and pray that she gets connected.
S7 (33:21):
Mm.
S1 (33:22):
Cathy, thank you so much. What a good friend your
friend has in you. Thank you for being here. Pat
in Vermont. Welcome. Your question, please.
S12 (33:30):
Thank you. Um. God has lifted me out of a
marriage to a covert narcissist. And I am also autistic.
So I was wondering in your research if you found
anything linked between neurodiverse neurodivergent people and and a more
(33:51):
being more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse? And if so, why?
S5 (33:58):
Well, I would say that's not my area of expertise
of working with autism, but I would say that, um, whatever,
Whatever we struggle with, we have to look at what
vulnerability that creates for us. So, um, whatever symptoms that
you have within that disorder, what what is it specifically
(34:24):
that would prohibit you from being like I was talking
about before, innocent as a dove and shrewd as a serpent. So, um,
and figuring out how you can neutralize all of that.
So if it's something to do with a lack of
affect and, and not really having those intense feelings when
(34:45):
someone is, um, very abrasive toward you or shows you
a lack of empathy. This is just an example. I
don't know what you're struggling with, but let's say you're
struggling with the lack of affect, and and you don't
really feel that abrasion or you don't really feel that
offense when someone offends you, then you have to do
a lot of studying on a lack of empathy and
(35:07):
how that presents and what that does to people. And
so you start to learn from the outside in whatever
you're struggling with that you don't have from the inside out,
and you work with a professional counselor that can help
you get through all of that so that you do
not knit yourself together again with another narcissist. I praise
(35:28):
the Lord like I did with the other caller, that
God set you free from that abusive relationship with that
covert narcissist. And like I was saying, you are not alone.
That covert narcissism, it is so toxic and people suffer
so much and for so long behind closed doors, especially
within the church.
S1 (35:49):
Thank you, Pat, so very much for being with us,
I appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. We're going to take a break.
Come right back. Going right to the phones. As I
come up to this break, don't forget to check out
all the information that Laurel has for your perusal and
for your comfort and healing right there on our website
in the market with Janet Parshall. There's a description of
(36:10):
both of the hours we do every day. Underneath that
description is a red box. It says program details and audio.
Click that on. It'll take it over to the information page.
There's a longer bio for Laurel, a link to her
website again for your use, so that if you want
to talk to her privately and professionally, you can set
it up right through that website. On the right hand side,
there's the two books we've been talking about. And in addition,
(36:31):
don't forget she has a podcast entitled simply help! I
have a narcissist in my life. You can find that
wherever you go to find your podcast. So let me
take this break, come right back to the phones and
we'll get more answers from Laurel right after this. Certified
(36:52):
Christian Counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest as she
is monthly. As we take on this topic of narcissism.
And if you could see my screen, every single line
is lit, which says that I think we're tapping into
some pain. Pain that's not often articulated. You don't know
where to go to get answers. And boy, what a
safe place. If you've got a wonderful, compassionate, tender Christian
counselor in Laurel and she does a marvelous job of
(37:15):
not only offering resources, but gentle counsel as well, always,
always bathes in Scripture. Connie, thank you so much for
your patience in California. Your question please.
S13 (37:25):
Well, thank you so much for taking my call. I
need to know how to reestablish a relationship with my
grown daughter. Um, I am a victim of a narcissistic
ex-husband for 25 years. And in the breakup, she decided
(37:45):
to live with her father, and she has picked up
on his ways. And just recently, I decided that I
had to let her know my boundary limits. That she
cannot disrespect me down to my core like she did
by insulting what I believe in in Jesus Christ and
letting her know that I am her mother and not
(38:06):
somebody that she can mistreat.
S5 (38:11):
I'm so glad to hear you say that. You, you know,
at a heart level that you are precious and you
are not created to be treated with that disrespect. Even
if it's your own child who you love so much.
And and I see this going on so much that, um,
where the adult children are treating their non narcissistic parent
(38:36):
the same way that they're that narcissist treated that non
narcissistic parent. And so this is not something where you're alone.
There are many, many people that are struggling in the
same way that you are. And so I'm so glad
to hear you say that. You set the boundaries and
you have to grieve. You have to grieve the loss
(38:58):
of who you want her to be. You have to
grieve the loss of of who she is. That's, um,
not what God wants her to be. And so you
have to allow yourself to do all this grieving and
get to that place of acceptance. Like, okay, this is
who my daughter is at this point. Um, I raised
her up in the way in the Lord, and I'm
(39:19):
going to keep praying for her. And then you can
set up some prayerfully. Just pray through set up some
structure of, okay, I'm going to reach out, um, every
so often in this safe way to see if things
are different and to see if she's willing to work
on things. So for now, since you gave her that information,
(39:42):
that you're not going to let her treat her with disrespect,
then just prayerfully set up a structure. So, okay, how
am I going to reach out? Maybe send her a text, um,
send her something of interest that she likes if she
answers back with any kind of disrespect or condemnation. Or
if she doesn't answer you, then you say, okay, Lord,
(40:05):
thank you for revealing her character and where she is
currently and I'm just going to connect through her, connect
with her through prayer for now. And then you try again.
You know, maybe a month from now or three months, um,
you can also let her know what you're doing. You
can say, I'm going to reach out blank. I'm going
to reach out, uh, once a month, or I'm going
(40:26):
to reach out once a quarter. Whatever you decide on
and you you are revealing your character to her that way,
whether she likes it or not. So if you reveal, hey,
I'm going to do this, and then you're a woman
of follow through and you follow through on what you
told her you're going to do. Your character of integrity
(40:47):
is going to shine through. And so it's going to
impact her whether she acknowledges it to you or not
right now. And so that's that's what all you can do. Um,
from that standpoint, don't get into any divisive arguments with her. Don't, um,
discredit her father. She is under his spell, and for
(41:09):
whatever reason, she doesn't want to separate from him. She
doesn't see his toxic traits. And so, um, you just
pray that she does that. God reveals his true core
identity to her, and she recognizes it. And at the
same time, you're building that trust and you're revealing your
own character. And I just I believe so wholeheartedly that
(41:32):
we are all hardwired to desire what God has to give.
And so just being someone who exudes the the fruit
of the spirit and, and Christ's love, and that Christ's
love sometimes is full of boundaries, um, and consistency. So I,
I think she'll recognize Christ whether she wants to accept
(41:55):
it right now or not. But I think those are
the most powerful things you can do.
S1 (42:00):
Connie. Thank you. I hope you're encouraged by the answer,
I truly do. Sarah in Missouri, I want to get
your call in before the hour wraps up. Your question, please.
S14 (42:09):
So my question is, um, after 30 years, I know
it's time to leave, and I'm trying to come up
with a plan, and, um, I'm just struggling with. How
do you leave without feeling guilty and feeling sorry for them?
S5 (42:26):
Sarah, that's a great question. And that's what I work
on with the with a lot of my clients in
the phone advice sessions because you invite, like I was
saying a little bit earlier, you want to invite him
into a plan of change. Um, that Joshua 2415 plan
of change that I do have some of this information
in the first book. Um, don't let the crazy make
you crazy and the assertiveness chapter, but you invite them
(42:50):
into a plan of change. Um, I say do it
in writing. Um, you outline your needs in that plan
of change, you invite him into this and then give
him his free will. And if he doesn't, then that's
where you start using that redemptive tool of separation. And
it's not a punishment. The redemptive tool of separation is
(43:11):
to give him time and space so that he can
think about what you were saying and what your needs are,
and how to respond to those in a loving way.
So utilizing that redemptive tool of separation is all biblical.
It's all based on Matthew 1815 through 17 and in.
(43:31):
You're truly inviting him into a different way of life,
but you're not going to sit and let him continue
to abuse you any longer, because he's not really moving
toward God that way. He's not moving toward becoming who
God wants him to become, and nor can you, because
you're constantly having to pick yourself up from all those
abusive interactions and and you just can't focus on your
(43:55):
relationship with the God or the healthy other people in
your life if you're continuing to let him abuse you.
So I hope that helps, Sarah.
S1 (44:03):
I hope so too. Sarah, thank you so much for
being with us. To the rest of you, should the
Lord allow first, last and always. And if Laurel is able,
we'll do this again next month. So I'm so sorry
we didn't get to your call. Please know our hearts.
We are going to have these conversations as long as
you keep calling in, particularly at this volume level, because
it's an opportunity for you to let your voice be heard,
(44:24):
to know that you are precious. You haven't been forgotten
that God has a plan for your welfare. And so
I really appreciate your calling in and love the way
that with tenderness, Laurel Slade Wagner just keeps counseling you
as you walk through this. You are not alone. So
in the meantime, read her books. They're both there on
the website if you want to talk to her privately
and professionally, work that through the link to her direct
(44:45):
website for her practice in Florida as well. I thank you, Laurel,
so much from the bottom of my heart. And you, friends,
we'll see you next time on In the Market with
Janet Parshall.
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