May 22, 2025 • 44 mins
Get ready to think biblically and critically this hour. We start by discussing a seismic victory for religious liberty coming out of the Chicago Public School system. We then talk with Dr. George Barna about his latest American Worldview Inventory report that reveals a significant shift in faith allegiance. Don’t miss this timely conversation.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
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out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening,
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Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air
because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book,
he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the
(00:20):
book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
and all that he has done for us. It's a
magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
because trust me, every single one of us will find
(00:40):
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(01:03):
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(01:25):
the truth tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much.
And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:37):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (01:58):
Hi, friends. Welcome to in the Market with Janet Parshall.
A very happy Thursday to you. I want to get
right to our first story because I, I have been
struggling with this story all day long. Maybe it's because
it just happened in my town. Maybe it's because there's
an element to the story that most of the media
outlets will not talk about today that I want to
share with you. If you have not heard the story.
(02:18):
A gunman opened fire outside the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington,
DC last night, taking the lives of Yaron Leszczynski and
Sarah Milgram, a soon to be engaged couple who worked
at the Israeli embassy. Israeli embassy beautiful building. Been there
multiple times. According to the Israeli ambassador to the U.S.,
the couple was gunned down in the name of Free Palestine.
(02:41):
Leszczynski had just purchased a ring planned to propose to
Milgram in Jerusalem next week. She is from Kansas. He
is from Jerusalem. The suspect has been identified as 30
year old Elias Rodriguez from Chicago. He went into the
museum and following the shooting, started to shout free, Free
Palestine as authorities arrested him. And then after that, we
(03:04):
begin to learn more about this particular man who has
a very troublesome background in radical groups today. It is
definitely being categorized as a terrorist act. They were shot
at close range while attending a Jewish event at the
Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C. President Trump reacted to
(03:24):
the news early Thursday morning, saying, these horrible D.C. killings
based obviously on anti-Semitism, must end now. Hatred and radicalism
have no place in the U.S.. Condolences. Excuse me. Hatred
and radicalism have no place in the U.S.. Condolences to
the families of the victims. So sad that such things
as this can happen. God bless you all. So here's
(03:45):
the part of the story that you might not get
when the evening news talks about it tonight. And by
the way, again, the more we learn about this man,
we understand that he was aligned with Marxist groups. He
had written a manifesto. He had a long track history
of being a radical activist. And you wonder whether or
not we're starting to connect the dots here that you
cannot shout from the river to the sea on college
(04:07):
campuses all across this country, or stop traffic shouting free,
free Palestine and fail to remember that the Scripture tells
us that within the tongue resides the power of life
and death. So this individual decided he would take matters
into his own hands. CBN news caught up with Vanessa Mistretta.
She happens to be an American who made Aliyah. Now
(04:29):
she's a citizen of Israel. And more importantly to this story.
Not only is she a part of firm which is
the Fellowship of Israel related ministries, she is also part
of Yaron Leszczynski's congregation. He was a messianic believer. I
want you to hear a little bit of that conversation.
Here's Vanessa.
S5 (04:48):
When we hear about this as the messianic body, we
just feel like, I mean, it's one of us. It's
one of our own. I mean, I was putting my
babies down to bed tonight, And you just think about it.
You think like my boys are in the Lord's hands,
and I, I who knows what's going to happen with
any of our lives, you know, and we're here in
a in a war zone right now. So I, you know,
(05:10):
I was in my bomb shelter today as many people
around the area were. We've been multiple times, uh, recently.
And you just know and trust the Lord. We trust
God that God has a plan and a purpose, and
our days are numbered. But that every day that we live,
we want to glorify God and share of his love
(05:31):
and help people to know that we, as hard as
it is, we can have hope in him.
S6 (05:37):
The two Israeli diplomats who were murdered last night in Washington,
DC were Jesus followers. Vanessa Mistretta, who was part of
Yaron Leszczynski's congregation, joins us now from Jerusalem. First off,
I am just I'm just so incredibly sorry, sis. Uh,
(05:59):
how are you processing this horrific news?
S5 (06:01):
Yeah. It was it was devastating to wake up to. Um,
we all woke up to the reality of knowing that
two people were murdered last night in Washington, DC. And
then you wake up to finding out that you know
them and know their family. And it was just it
was really difficult. I have a WhatsApp group with our staff,
(06:22):
with firm, and you had so many people telling stories
about how they grew up with him and know him.
And it's just it's heartbreaking, you know, to recognize you
have this this young guy who was super passionate about
being an advocate for Israel and was in DC, really
to be able to just share about his love for
(06:45):
Israel and who he is as an Israeli. And then,
you know, just out of nowhere gets murdered for being
an an event. It was extremely it's been an extremely
heavy day, and extremely heartbreaking to think about the grief
that his parents and his siblings must be experiencing and
all of his friends. And it's just it's really, really overwhelming.
S1 (07:09):
Messianic believers. Now there's another clip. I'm not going to
get it into this segment. I'm going to play it
when we come back on the other side of the great,
the break. But I want you to understand that now
Pro-hamas groups are celebrating this. Iran backed trolls are hailing
the barbaric murder of these two Israeli embassy staffers as
a heroic attack, claiming it was a justified response to
the war in Gaza. So the Pro-hamas Gaza Now media
(07:33):
group is celebrating Elias Rodriguez, the man who pulled the trigger,
who is now deemed to be a domestic terrorist. Who
will be, I'm quite sure, when it's all said and done,
charged federally, and they will enhance the penalty by charging
it as a hate crime as well. So we are
far from done with this, but they're saying that he's
an ally against Zionism and this Gaza now, which is
(07:56):
a pro-hamas group, has welcomed the violent attack against this
particular couple. Remember, Iran is from Jerusalem. Sarah came from Kansas.
They both worked at the Israeli embassy. They were going
to Israel next week, where he was going to visit
his family, and he was going to propose to Sarah
had just purchased the ring once he got over there
into Israel. But no, no, no to the Pro-hamas Gaza
(08:19):
now group quote in a moment of courage, this is
Elias Rodriguez there saying in a moment of courage, he
decided to make his voice heard and boldly confront the killers.
They wrote that on telegram. They were referring, obviously, to
the embassy workers. And by the way, Sarah. Sarah was
in the process of trying to get more humanitarian aid
into Gaza. Well, of course they're not. When you're blinded
(08:41):
by hatred. And this is a spiritual blindness that the
alphabet soup media cannot possibly understand. You were failing to
understand that what Sarah was trying to do was to
help bridge this problem, and wanted to bring not less
but more humanitarian aid into Gaza. In the meantime, this
individual has a manifesto. The federal agents are going through
(09:02):
this now, and it's stunning. I mean, we just we
we this is not Berlin in the 1930s. This is
not in outside of a music camp. On September 7th, 2023,
these are the streets of Washington, D.C., gunned down for
one reason and one reason only. They were Jewish, but
(09:23):
they were Jewish believers in Yeshua. And today, they're with
him back after this. When the storms of life hit
with hurricane force, how do you respond? This month's truth
tool is the Mediterranean Sea Rules, where Robert Morgan writes
how God will redeem our tragedies for his purposes. Don't
(09:44):
just survive the storms. Learn to serve God in the
midst of them. As for your copy of the Mediterranean
Sea Rules, when you give a gift of any amount
in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's eight. 77.
Janet 58. Or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S7 (10:03):
It is deeply.
S5 (10:05):
Deeply shocking to me that this happened on American soil.
You know, like I said, we're in a war zone.
So my friend's son was killed in Gaza, and I
have another friend whose nephew was killed, you know, right
after the war started. And we're still in an active war.
So people are dying here. It's part of that when
(10:28):
you realize that people are dying around the world because
they're Jewish, because of anti-Semitism. It it's a whole nother level.
You know, I as an American immigrant, it it it
concerns me for all of my friends and family who
are still in America and around the world, who are Jewish.
And just because they're Jewish, they have to walk outside
(10:50):
and be aware. I mean, I have to think about
that when I travel with my kids and they call
me Emma and they call my husband ABBA. And I think, like,
who's listening? And what does this actually mean for the
reality of people around the world? And it's it's so
it's on one hand it's terrifying because you think about,
you know, you hear about what's happened obviously in our history,
(11:10):
but then you realize, like, this is our reality today.
And so what is happening? What are we doing about it.
And it's just it's hard. It's really hard because this
reality here in Israel is complicated. And I know it's complicated.
There's a lot of hurting people here in Israel. There's
a lot of hurting people in Gaza. There's a lot
of hurting people all around. But at the end of
(11:31):
the day, we're not walking around killing people just because
they're Palestinian. You know, we're not going to different places
around the world and attacking other people just because of
who they are. But it's not about freeing. I mean,
this is just a it's complicated. And so I'm not
going to get super political. But I think just the
hard thing about it is these people died on American
(11:52):
soil just because they're Jewish, you know? So it's just
it's discouraging in so many ways. And as a believer
in Yeshua, I know the end of the story, and
I know that God has a plan and a purpose,
and he's faithful to his word, and he's faithful to Israel,
and he's faithful to us as Jewish people. But walking
it out and walking out, the devastation of what this
(12:13):
means for our people and the fear that it potentially
brings on our people around the world is hard. It's
really difficult to to live in that and to carry that.
And we want to speak hope and love and life
at the same time. We're holding the tension of grief
and despair and and fear. And so, you know, how
do we balance and handle the reality of not walking
(12:35):
in fear and at the same time, seeing your friends
literally die just because they're they're they're the same thing
I am I'm, I'm Jewish. What if I was there?
S1 (12:44):
Mm. Vanessa mistretta. She is a part of Yaron Leszczynski's
messianic Congregation in Jerusalem. You're not going to hear this
in the alphabet soup. I wanted you to hear it.
Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Please pray for Sarah and Iran's families. They're shocked, they're stunned.
They're grieving. And you can hear the fear that's worked
(13:05):
its way through the community. This balancing here is Vanessa,
who believes in Yeshua, knows that he is her protector.
He is her Savior. He is the one who is
Lord over all and yet balancing every day, that day
to day fear. Am I going to be killed simply
because I am Jewish? Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
That was a stunning event in Washington. I needed you
(13:27):
to hear the rest of the story, because that's really
the true story behind all of this. Let me switch
gears now and go to a good news story. And boy,
this really is a good news story. I am thrilled
to have John Mack back on the program again. He's
a founding partner of Mouch and Baker. He's been an
attorney for over 40 years, and he represents a whole
lot of churches and ministries. And he got involved helping
a bunch of students in the Chicago public school system.
(13:50):
And that's exactly what we're going to talk about now.
A victory. John, you and I talked about this before
this settlement came down. But boy, there's an update that
we need to talk about before we get to where
we are today. And congratulations in advance. Let's talk about
the background of this case. What were the facts? Why
was there a legal action, a class action lawsuit started
(14:10):
in the first place?
S8 (14:12):
Well, we were contacted by members of parents and a
substitute teacher from the Chicago Public Schools about this religion
being taught in eight schools, eight high schools or seven
high schools in the junior high in Chicago. And parents
(14:35):
were upset. Students were upset. They'd come to realize that
it was Hinduism in disguise. Some of them talked about
it as being demonology, and this was being practiced in
the schools under the supervision of the mentors by the
David Lynch Foundation, who were teaching really Hinduism. It was
(14:59):
disguised Hinduism. But as we peel back the onion, we
saw more and more how it was the demonic invocation,
demonic meditation, mantras, uh, worship, all of which involved these
students who were who were minors at the time. So
(15:20):
I looked at I could hardly believe that this was happening, um,
because it was so blatant. But that's what brought the lawsuit.
We had several lawsuits that we brought on behalf of, uh, individuals.
And finally we decided it should be a class action.
So we, uh, asked the court to approve that. And
(15:42):
eventually it was approved as a class action on behalf
of 773 Of the students who had been forced to
go through the Hindu worship experience and participate in it.
S3 (15:56):
Wow.
S1 (15:57):
773 now you just said something important, and I want
to make sure my friends picked up on it. So
this wasn't merely an exposure to a different worldview. This
was and this is an important word as I understand it,
in your world, this was coercion that the kids had
to participate in what was being touted as transcendental meditation,
(16:17):
by the way, that's been around for a long period
of time, but it really is steeped in eastern mysticism, Hinduism.
And the kids didn't seem to have much of an
opportunity to say thanks, but no thanks. Did they go
into this thinking we're probably going to have a couple
of parents who are going to push back? What about
the kids who say, you know, this violates they might
not use these words, but we're acting out on the
(16:37):
belief that they had their own sincerely held set of beliefs,
and this was violative of what they believed. But there
didn't seem to be any recognition of that. I find
this interesting, John, because we've worshiped at the altar for
so long of dai, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion,
that one would have thought that if you were really
and truly a subscriber to that particular principle, you're not
(16:58):
going to coerce someone to have to participate in a
religious practice that's antithetical to what you believe. So when
we come back, if you pick it up at that
point and then remember, this ends as a good news story.
John is very much responsible for this. And let me
tell you also, John's written an absolutely fabulous book. It's
called Paul on Trial The Book of Acts as a
defense of Christianity. We've got a copy of that book
in our house. It's just fabulous. And it was a
(17:20):
finalist for the Evangelical Book of the year at one
point in time. So check that out. You can find
it wherever books are sold. But when we come back,
we're going to continue to herald this great victory where
parents and children were told, uh, don't have to participate
in this sorry, David Lynch Foundation hit the road, Jack,
back after this. We're visiting with John Mauck, who is
(17:45):
the man behind the class action lawsuit claiming that Chicago
high School students were coerced into practicing a Hindu ritual
invoking the religion's deities. And now there has been a settlement,
and we're excited to tell you about that in a minute.
But I want to go back and have you understand
how just violative this was. So, John, what's interesting when
you go back and review the facts of the case here,
(18:07):
it was like it was a Pavlovian dog's response to
the students. They got rewarded with pizza and snacks. If
they acted like they were representing the program, they got
sent to the dean's office. If they declined to participate.
Did nobody think that they weren't going to hit the
tripwire of coercion here?
S8 (18:21):
Well, they didn't start out knowing that this was a religion.
They started out being told, this will just relieve your stress,
and there's no religion at all full of lies and deceit.
Sign this permission slip. Do not tell your parents, especially
(18:42):
if they're religious about this. And Then 1415 year old
kids would be pulled out of class, taken to a
darkened room and said, this is just a ceremony honoring
the founders of TM. But in fact it was Hindu
incantations and invocations, uh, spoken in Sanskrit. And then the
(19:11):
students were were sucked into, uh, accepting it by, by
things like one student was given an orange and said,
put that in front of the image in front of you.
That was an illuminated picture of a guru. Another student
was told to kneel, and she was a Christian, and
(19:33):
she was in a bind because they said, if you
don't participate, it could affect your eligibility for the basketball team.
S1 (19:40):
Um, wow.
S8 (19:42):
So, uh, that's coercion. And she she decided to lie,
but she called her pastor right after that. She lied
and said, I have a bad knee. And so she
didn't have to kneel. But, uh, the pastor raised an
objection and people were objecting. But the Lynch Foundation, which
(20:03):
was running this and those in the school board, uh,
ignored for a long time all of the individual complaints.
And if somebody really wanted out, they could get out. But, uh,
most of the students were forced by social pressure.
S1 (20:21):
Um.
S8 (20:22):
Teachers, um, not wanting to have their grades affected as
well as the rewards you mentioned. So, uh, the deceit
and the coercion, uh, went hand in hand.
S1 (20:38):
Wow. Wow. And again, there's there's an inequitable distribution of
power when the teacher says you're not going to make
the basketball team unless you do this. There's no level
playing ground for the students there by any stretch of
the imagination. By the way, I want to tell our
friends that if that were David Lynch kind of rings
a little note in your head. Yes. We're talking about
that filmmaker who started this organization to get transcendental Meditation
(21:00):
into the schools. And, John, you know, it's interesting. There
was a case that the Supreme Court dealt with that
had to do with TM before. So I'm surprised that
Chicago would have just spread their arms so wide and
embraced this under the guise of trying to bring TM
into the school and we're going to have better peacemaking, blah, blah, blah,
and all the other stuff that they were selling.
S8 (21:17):
What happened is in the 1980, TM was established in
all of the public schools of new Jersey, and, uh,
Christians sued. And there was a there was a big trial.
And the judge ruled, yes, this is a religion. It
(21:38):
shouldn't be allowed. Uh, and the Third Circuit Court of
Appeals unanimously, Approved that judgment, affirmed it, and it did
not go to the Supreme Court. But it was there
on record. But the Chicago Public Schools either ignored that
(22:00):
and just went ahead, maybe because it was 40 years ago.
But but the practice of transcendental meditation is very controlled
of the Sanskrit invocations of the deities is you have
to say that perfectly. If you're going to be an
(22:23):
instructor and you have to give the mantras and the
mantras are secret, all of that stuff is very uniform.
And it was ruled to be a religion by a
court of appeals, and it was ruled to be a religion,
in our case by the district court in here in Chicago. So. um. Yeah,
(22:46):
they they're starting up all over.
S1 (22:49):
Um, yeah, yeah.
S8 (22:51):
The, the publication we got from the publicity we got
from this, uh, a lawsuit. I got a call from
a woman in Georgia and said they're doing it in
public schools in Georgia. They're calling it mindfulness. Um, they
have all of these, uh, deceitful, deceptive things in Chicago.
(23:12):
They called it quiet time. But you peel it back
and you, you feel it. You see that it's, uh, children, uh,
memorizing mantras, which are the names of Hindu deities and
15 minutes twice a day during the regular school hours,
(23:36):
all things would stop. It's time to meditate down the lights,
start thinking your mantra and repeating the mantra in your mind.
S3 (23:45):
Yeah.
S8 (23:46):
And that's that's coercion right there.
S1 (23:49):
100%. And one of the reasons, John, why I'm glad
we're having this conversation is because you are talking to
a national audience. And if you think this is a
one off in Chicago, you're wrong. But if you're thinking
school of doing this, let me tell you how the
story ends. The Chicago Public Schools and the David Lynch
Foundation for Consciousness-based Education and World Peace, each of them,
they have to pony up 1.3 million apiece, making it
(24:13):
a total of a $2.6 million settlement in favor of
the students. Thank you, John, for making that happen. There's
a reason we're told to look well to the ways
of our household parents. You are watchmen on the wall.
Don't look away. Thank you, John Beck. After this. If
(24:33):
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(24:56):
online to in the market with Janet Parshall. So let
me ask you a question. Do you have a biblical worldview?
You can talk among yourselves, use a lifeline, call a friend.
Do you know what you believe and why you believe it?
And how solid do you think your biblical worldview is? Well,
there's nobody like Doctor George Barne as far as I'm concerned.
(25:18):
Not only is his name synonymous with excellent research, but
this is a man who cares passionately that we are
raising the next generation to have a biblical worldview. And
in the process of pursuing that passion and training up
young champions for the Lord, he is doing the church
capital C universal a big favor. He is telling us
that we are drifting from the having that biblical worldview,
(25:41):
that so much of it goes right back to what
we're being taught from the word, from our shepherds, and
whether or not we're practicing applied Christianity and holding fast
to that which is good. So as a result of that,
he has been doing some superb work at the Cultural
Research Center. This is an arm of Arizona Christian University,
and he's been doing world review, worldview inventories, and I
(26:04):
can't wait for them to come out. I really am
passionate about every single one that comes out. And I've
asked Doctor Barnett to join us today to talk about
one of the latest. I understand there's even one after this,
but I want to talk about number five, which is
a survey that reveals significant shifts in faith, allegiance and
growing confusion about moral truth. That last part in particular
(26:25):
has me concerned because this program is called In the market,
because the whole point is to get you out into
the marketplace of ideas. How are you not going to
be Colossians taken captive through vain and hollow philosophies predicated
on this world, rather than on the Word of God
if you don't know the plumb line of absolute truth.
So exactly what did Doctor Barna find out? Doctor Barna,
(26:48):
the warmest of welcomes. I'm always interested. It's not usually
really good news, but it really is important news that
you share with us. So I want to thank you
for that, if you can. This is number five. Just
a quick word or two about the methodology, how you
get this information. And I don't think I have Doctor
(27:10):
Barna I'll try one more time. Doctor Barna, are you there?
We'll see if we can get him back on the air.
In the meantime, let me lead you to a couple
of things. If you'll go to the information page on
our website in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on
the red box that says Program Details and Audio. It
gets you over to what is, in essence, the daily
(27:30):
library for the program. It'll give you a longer bio
of our guest, a photograph of who they are, a
link to their website, and then there's always a resource
that's tied into the topic we're discussing Doctor Barner's latest book,
which speaks right into his passion about building a biblical worldview,
is called Raising Spiritual Champions, nurturing your child's mind, heart,
and Soul. So this is important, Mom and Dad, because
(27:53):
we have this very precious and important position of helping
our children get that solid biblical worldview. So raising spiritual champions,
by the way, if you're interested in following all of
the work done at the Cultural Research Center, I have
a link to that as well, so that you can
track every single time one of these new reports comes out,
we have Doctor Barna back with us again. Doctor Barna,
thank you so much. The question I was asking was,
(28:15):
tell me just a wee bit, if you can, about
the methodology. How do you get people's opinions in the
first place? What's your pool?
S9 (28:22):
Yeah, well, it's the adult population of America. And so
we have a way of reaching every household in America.
When you reach the household, then you, you know, have
a process you go through to try to figure out
what person in the household. You want to speak to,
you randomize that, and then you conduct the interview. And
(28:44):
we know that we can probably keep people engaged in
the interviews for up to 15, maybe 17 minutes. And
so we try to ask as many relevant questions as
we can within that period of time.
S1 (28:56):
How do the students ever get to do this? Or
is this a different firm that does it?
S9 (29:01):
Uh, no, we don't have the students do this. We
we have professionals that are doing this.
S1 (29:06):
And and there is an art to this. I ask
that just because I was thinking, boy, it'd be a
wake up call for the students, would it not in
so many cases to hear some of these responses from individuals.
S9 (29:15):
Well, you know, what we do with our students at
Arizona Christian is every year they do the worldview inventory
as well. And so at the beginning of every academic year,
they do it. And then before we'll hand them a diploma,
they do it one final time, a fifth time. We're
tracking their worldview their entire time when they're on campus.
(29:37):
This and we use that to look at our courses.
Doing the job is our faculty. The faculty we need.
Are these the right students? Do we need to recruit
different types of students? I mean, all of these kinds
of questions, we have conversations all throughout the year trying
to I mean, because I mean, the the differentiation point
for Arizona Christian is that we are a worldview development university.
(30:02):
That's why we exist. We don't care whether or not
you get a job. I mean, forgive me for saying
that it's important, but but I mean, the most important
thing is that when you get into the marketplace, you've
got the goods to interact with people about God's truth,
God's ways, God's principles, God's purposes. And that's why you're
(30:23):
on the planet. It's not so that you make a
lot of money and buy a big house. It's so
that you represent and advance his kingdom. And the only
way you can do that is if you're a disciple
of Jesus. And the only way you're going to be
a disciple of Jesus is if you think like him,
well guess what? The only way you think like him
is if you believe like him. Yeah, we do what
(30:43):
we believe. And so we want to make sure that
all of our students and ultimately everybody in the country
is able to think like Jesus so they can live
like Jesus, so they can serve him well.
S1 (30:54):
Amen. Boy, am I glad I asked you that question.
This goes far beyond Arizona Christian University. This is so
important for every single one of us. All right, now,
the troubling part. And by the way, again, I find
your your information so rich because it's so applicable. Just
my first response is always just from the world of evangelism.
For example, you pointed out in number five of the
(31:15):
American Worldview Inventory report for this year that there is
now objective fact. Okay, John Adams, facts are stubborn things.
The fact is, Christianity is in decline. Talk to me
about that. By what percentage? And if it's in decline,
are we seeing an uptick in other worldviews?
S9 (31:34):
Yeah, we are actually I mean, if we go back
to as recent as 2020, you know, just about 5
or 6 years ago, what we found was 72% of
adults described themselves as Christians. Now that's dropped to currently 66%.
That's a six percentage point drop. That means about 15
(31:56):
million people who used to think of themselves as Christians
no longer do so. And in that vacuum, what we've
had is a 56% rise in Buddhism, a 21% rise
in Judaism, 12% rise in Islam, 39% increase in all
non-Christian faiths. And there's also been an increase in terms
(32:20):
of those people who say they have no faith from
20 to 23%. So, I mean, we're clearly losing ground here.
I'm not a big advocate of saying, oh, we know
what's going on with the church capital C in America
by measuring how many people call themselves Christians. I like
to look deeper and figure out, yeah, what does it
(32:40):
mean to be a Christian? Because when we ask people
what it means, what they say, oh yeah, I'm a Christian.
What does that mean to you? It means I'm a
good person. And thank you for playing.
S1 (32:48):
Yeah, right. Exactly right. Wow. All right, so a couple
of questions. I find this fascinating in the other non-Christian
where you saw an uptick, it was 4% in 2025,
but that's an uptick of 77%. What constitutes that category?
S9 (33:03):
These are people who say that either they don't believe
that there's any God. They don't believe that religion has
anything to do with a person's life. They, uh, you know,
don't believe in any existing religious faith. They don't participate
in what they're doing. So that's all those groups, what
sometimes would be called agnostics, sometimes called atheists. And those
(33:27):
are different groups, obviously. But then also this more recent
group that a lot of people refer to as the
nones or the group that we measure, which we call
the don'ts. Those who don't believe that God exists don't
know if God exists, don't care if God exists.
S1 (33:42):
Wow. Now, I know you crunch the numbers, but, uh,
you you have the name doctor in front of your
name on purpose because you've done your homework and you
love research. I'm fascinated that out of all the categories,
we see a 56% uptick in those who have been
drawn to or attracted to Buddhism. Doctor Barnett, what do
you think is inherent in that worldview that's gotten greater subscribers?
S9 (34:05):
It's the most comfortable worldview available to us Americans. Americans
want comfort. You know, they want to feel good. They
want to feel good about themselves. They want to feel
good about the world. They want to feel that everything
is going to be peaceful and harmonious. And that's the
type of thing that Buddhism pushes. And so I think
that has a lot to do with the attraction, because
(34:26):
you see so much of that happening with young people.
S1 (34:29):
Wow. So the next part, and this is a ten
page report and I have a link to it, by
the way, on my website, so you can read this
for your own. And then I want you to get
so attracted that you're going to follow what the Cultural
Research Center does with every single one of their inventory reports.
This is one of a myriad of reports that are
out there. So talk to me about because I know
words are important, particularly when you're doing surveys. How did
(34:51):
you define absolute moral truth? I think it's important to
get that definition first.
S9 (34:57):
That there are things that are factually, empirically, tangibly accurate
and definable and defensible. It's not based on feelings, it's
not based on assumptions, but that there is a way
of showing or demonstrating or proving that these things are true.
(35:18):
And and then we relate that to morality that is
trying to understand what, uh, what is right or wrong,
because that's what morality refers to. So when we talk
about absolute moral truth, we're talking about things that are unchanging.
They're demonstrably, demonstrably true. And they're accurate for a person's life.
S1 (35:40):
Okay. So having beautifully defined that I'm going to leave
it hanging. And when we come back, I'd love to
see what your survey revealed in terms of that. I mean,
these are self-evident truths. If I can borrow the words
from the founders. And one would think that some things
are inarguably true, transcendent, apply to all people in all times,
in all places. But given the variance of worldviews that
we talked about a moment ago, that means that truth
(36:02):
is probably in the dock and up for definition. And
it goes right back to the idea that man does
what's right in his own eyes, becoming their own arbiter
of truth. So fascinating stuff. This is just number five
for this year. It's the 2025 American Worldview Inventory. This
is report number five, growing confusion about moral truth and
(36:22):
shifts in faith allegiance. Fascinating stuff. Back after this. We're
talking with Doctor George Barna, who's the director of research
and co-founder of the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University.
Marvelous author as well. Let me just plug his latest book,
Raising Spiritual Champions Nurturing Your Child's Heart, mind and Soul.
(36:45):
You know, the data on these worldview inventories could be
different if you and I were looking well to the
ways of our household and doing just what the title
implies raising spiritual champions. So the American Worldview Inventory is
something that the Cultural Research Center puts out on a
regular basis. We're talking about report number five, which talks about,
among other things, confusion and drift when it comes to
(37:06):
moral truths. So you just gave the definition just before
the break, Doctor Barnett, of what moral truth is now
based on the variances in the religious worldviews. I'm expecting
some very interesting numbers on here. But let me start
with Christians. Surely we're at 100% in believing in absolute
moral truth.
S9 (37:24):
Yeah, that'd be great. Um, unfortunately, no, we're not we're
not that distinct Inked from the rest of the culture.
There are a lot of different truth measures that we
have in this report and the subsequent report, where we
compare different segments of the Christian body, let's say theologically identified,
(37:45):
born again Christians compared to self-identified Christians, compared to Catholics,
compared to Protestants, compared to subgroups within the Protestant community, evangelicals,
mainline Protestants, Pentecostals. And yes, there are differences. But the
key thing to understand is that wherever the culture comes
(38:06):
out on these kinds of measures, we're only a few
percentage points different on virtually everything that we're measuring, with
the exception of a single group, single faith group that
we measure. And that's a group we label integrated disciples.
Those are the 4% of the adult population who have
(38:28):
a biblical worldview. They are consistently, radically different. And of course,
their answers veer toward whatever the scriptures teach, but they
are the only spiritual segment that we find that's consistently
different from the national norms.
S1 (38:45):
Wow. That is stunning. Unbelievable. You have a section in
the report that I thought was interesting as to where
people would turn to get truth. Moral truth. 59% for Christians. Again,
not 100%. But again, part of that is probably tied
back to how you define the word Christian. But what
I found very problematic is that if you look at Mormonism,
Islam and Judaism, that had the same percentage point as
(39:08):
Friedrich Nietzsche and Plato. And so it's I mean, these
are bizarre comparisons. Wicca gets thrown in there, secular humanism
gets in there. L Ron Hubbard gets thrown in there
from Scientology. I mean, absolutely amazing. So if you don't
know what truth is, obviously you're not going to be
able to identify what a correct or incorrect source is
for truth as well. So there's a corollary. There is
(39:30):
there not?
S9 (39:31):
There is. And the other thing to keep in mind
related to this is that these are sources that people
identify as potential sources of truth. But there are a
couple of things that are vitally important to understand. One
is that most people do not turn to the Bible
consistently for moral truth, absolute or otherwise. They will turn
(39:56):
to it when it's comfortable, when it's available, when they
think it's going to tell them what they want to hear,
or whatever it may be. There are a whole range
of reasons that we uncovered, but by and large, people
do not perceive the Bible to be a source of
absolute moral truth. The other thing that's vitally important to
recognize is that most Americans, more than four out of
(40:18):
every five adults in America, are very comfortable picking and
choosing from a variety of sources of what they may
consider to be truth. So when we're talking about significant numbers,
you know, millions of Americans saying that they believe sources
of truth include the Book of Mormon, the Five Dialogues
by Plato, the Book of Shadows from Wicca, and a
(40:41):
whole list that we have there. What that means is
that at any given moment, Christian or not, in their orientation,
they may choose to turn to some of these other
sources because they know that they're either available or they
may have things that interest them. And because they don't
believe there's any such thing as absolute moral truth, all
(41:03):
of these sources of truth are perceived to be of
equal value. And that's mind blowing.
S1 (41:09):
You're unbelievable. Now, let me just pull over to the
side of the road and ask you a philosophical question.
This has a radical impact, it seems to me, on
the world of evangelism. 20 years ago, we could have said,
here's the truth, and his name is truth. And someone
would say, that's it. That's the truth I've been looking for.
If you believe that, you can pull truth from multiple sources.
And another point that you make in your observations was
(41:32):
two out of three believed truth is conditional. Well, that
means situational ethics. It doesn't. Truth no longer applies to
all people in all times and all places. The situation
means that any means whatsoever is justifiable. As long as
you get to your desired end and you can make
it up as you go along. If I can put
it in common parlance, wow, that's going to have an
impact and being able to share the truth of the gospel,
(41:53):
does it not?
S9 (41:54):
Absolutely. And it's one of the reasons why, you know,
when I'm working with students or any group at a
church or whatever, I tell them, look, you have got
to start to see yourself not only as a disciple
of Jesus, that's your identity, but the tools that you
take into the marketplace have to include the capacity to
defend the gospel. And in order to do that, you've
(42:17):
got to be able to engage people in Socratic conversations
where you're not assuming that they're coming from the same
base of knowledge and logic as you are, but what
you're trying to do, first and foremost is establish a relationship.
Ask them what they believe and then start digging into
it really well. Why do you believe that? You know,
(42:38):
how did you come to that conclusion? What experiences have
you had that made you think maybe that was the
right way? Have you seen anything that's different than I mean,
have at your disposal, ready to roll with all of
these kinds of questions that will enable you to not
show the person how, how wrong they are, but to
(42:58):
get the person to recognize how wrong they are because
they hear their own answers and they realize, wow, that's
not too smart, is it? I can't really defend that.
Let's talk about this. And that's exactly where you want
to go.
S1 (43:11):
Wow. And it seems to me also it behooves the
believer to be a little more culturally engaged. This is
a act 17 thing, it seems to me. Paul walks
around for Athens for a year and a half before
he gives that address at the Areopagus, and so his
observations are. They subscribe to all of these multitudinous worldviews.
I see you are a very religious people. If we
(43:31):
don't start with the idea that for the cause of
the cross and the message of the gospel, we are
going to engage, then we don't do our homework. We're
not prepared at all. So I think it's important for
us to have some semblance of you don't have to
know it all, but I think I want to know
where someone's coming from. You know, I see you're a
very religious people so that I can ask the questions
that you just gave as a perfect example and listen
(43:53):
with the ears on my heart there. There's so much
richness in your reports, Doctor Barnett. I can't thank you
enough for them. So let me get my friends to
do two things. I want you to click on to
the Cultural Research Center. Start reading every one of these.
They're not written in such a highfalutin, high education manner
that you and I can understand. And they're written so
that the numbers are there for you to understand. And
it's a wake up call first and foremost for your house,
(44:15):
second for you. Third of all, when you go out
into the mission field, which is that spot right outside
your front door. Also get Doctor Barnes's book Raising Spiritual Champions.
Thank you, Doctor Barnett. Thank you friends. We'll see you
next time.
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
it is my hope that you'll hear something that will
challenge you, grow you up in him, and get you
out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening,
let me take a moment and tell you what this
month's truth tool is. It's the Mediterranean Sea Rules by
Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air
because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book,
he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the
(00:20):
book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
and all that he has done for us. It's a
magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
because trust me, every single one of us will find
(00:40):
ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage
through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea
Rules by calling 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58
or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the book.
Click it on, Make Your Gift and we'll send you
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(01:03):
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(01:25):
the truth tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much.
And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:37):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (01:58):
Hi, friends. Welcome to in the Market with Janet Parshall.
A very happy Thursday to you. I want to get
right to our first story because I, I have been
struggling with this story all day long. Maybe it's because
it just happened in my town. Maybe it's because there's
an element to the story that most of the media
outlets will not talk about today that I want to
share with you. If you have not heard the story.
(02:18):
A gunman opened fire outside the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington,
DC last night, taking the lives of Yaron Leszczynski and
Sarah Milgram, a soon to be engaged couple who worked
at the Israeli embassy. Israeli embassy beautiful building. Been there
multiple times. According to the Israeli ambassador to the U.S.,
the couple was gunned down in the name of Free Palestine.
(02:41):
Leszczynski had just purchased a ring planned to propose to
Milgram in Jerusalem next week. She is from Kansas. He
is from Jerusalem. The suspect has been identified as 30
year old Elias Rodriguez from Chicago. He went into the
museum and following the shooting, started to shout free, Free
Palestine as authorities arrested him. And then after that, we
(03:04):
begin to learn more about this particular man who has
a very troublesome background in radical groups today. It is
definitely being categorized as a terrorist act. They were shot
at close range while attending a Jewish event at the
Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C. President Trump reacted to
(03:24):
the news early Thursday morning, saying, these horrible D.C. killings
based obviously on anti-Semitism, must end now. Hatred and radicalism
have no place in the U.S.. Condolences. Excuse me. Hatred
and radicalism have no place in the U.S.. Condolences to
the families of the victims. So sad that such things
as this can happen. God bless you all. So here's
(03:45):
the part of the story that you might not get
when the evening news talks about it tonight. And by
the way, again, the more we learn about this man,
we understand that he was aligned with Marxist groups. He
had written a manifesto. He had a long track history
of being a radical activist. And you wonder whether or
not we're starting to connect the dots here that you
cannot shout from the river to the sea on college
(04:07):
campuses all across this country, or stop traffic shouting free,
free Palestine and fail to remember that the Scripture tells
us that within the tongue resides the power of life
and death. So this individual decided he would take matters
into his own hands. CBN news caught up with Vanessa Mistretta.
She happens to be an American who made Aliyah. Now
(04:29):
she's a citizen of Israel. And more importantly to this story.
Not only is she a part of firm which is
the Fellowship of Israel related ministries, she is also part
of Yaron Leszczynski's congregation. He was a messianic believer. I
want you to hear a little bit of that conversation.
Here's Vanessa.
S5 (04:48):
When we hear about this as the messianic body, we
just feel like, I mean, it's one of us. It's
one of our own. I mean, I was putting my
babies down to bed tonight, And you just think about it.
You think like my boys are in the Lord's hands,
and I, I who knows what's going to happen with
any of our lives, you know, and we're here in
a in a war zone right now. So I, you know,
(05:10):
I was in my bomb shelter today as many people
around the area were. We've been multiple times, uh, recently.
And you just know and trust the Lord. We trust
God that God has a plan and a purpose, and
our days are numbered. But that every day that we live,
we want to glorify God and share of his love
(05:31):
and help people to know that we, as hard as
it is, we can have hope in him.
S6 (05:37):
The two Israeli diplomats who were murdered last night in Washington,
DC were Jesus followers. Vanessa Mistretta, who was part of
Yaron Leszczynski's congregation, joins us now from Jerusalem. First off,
I am just I'm just so incredibly sorry, sis. Uh,
(05:59):
how are you processing this horrific news?
S5 (06:01):
Yeah. It was it was devastating to wake up to. Um,
we all woke up to the reality of knowing that
two people were murdered last night in Washington, DC. And
then you wake up to finding out that you know
them and know their family. And it was just it
was really difficult. I have a WhatsApp group with our staff,
(06:22):
with firm, and you had so many people telling stories
about how they grew up with him and know him.
And it's just it's heartbreaking, you know, to recognize you
have this this young guy who was super passionate about
being an advocate for Israel and was in DC, really
to be able to just share about his love for
(06:45):
Israel and who he is as an Israeli. And then,
you know, just out of nowhere gets murdered for being
an an event. It was extremely it's been an extremely
heavy day, and extremely heartbreaking to think about the grief
that his parents and his siblings must be experiencing and
all of his friends. And it's just it's really, really overwhelming.
S1 (07:09):
Messianic believers. Now there's another clip. I'm not going to
get it into this segment. I'm going to play it
when we come back on the other side of the great,
the break. But I want you to understand that now
Pro-hamas groups are celebrating this. Iran backed trolls are hailing
the barbaric murder of these two Israeli embassy staffers as
a heroic attack, claiming it was a justified response to
the war in Gaza. So the Pro-hamas Gaza Now media
(07:33):
group is celebrating Elias Rodriguez, the man who pulled the trigger,
who is now deemed to be a domestic terrorist. Who
will be, I'm quite sure, when it's all said and done,
charged federally, and they will enhance the penalty by charging
it as a hate crime as well. So we are
far from done with this, but they're saying that he's
an ally against Zionism and this Gaza now, which is
(07:56):
a pro-hamas group, has welcomed the violent attack against this
particular couple. Remember, Iran is from Jerusalem. Sarah came from Kansas.
They both worked at the Israeli embassy. They were going
to Israel next week, where he was going to visit
his family, and he was going to propose to Sarah
had just purchased the ring once he got over there
into Israel. But no, no, no to the Pro-hamas Gaza
(08:19):
now group quote in a moment of courage, this is
Elias Rodriguez there saying in a moment of courage, he
decided to make his voice heard and boldly confront the killers.
They wrote that on telegram. They were referring, obviously, to
the embassy workers. And by the way, Sarah. Sarah was
in the process of trying to get more humanitarian aid
into Gaza. Well, of course they're not. When you're blinded
(08:41):
by hatred. And this is a spiritual blindness that the
alphabet soup media cannot possibly understand. You were failing to
understand that what Sarah was trying to do was to
help bridge this problem, and wanted to bring not less
but more humanitarian aid into Gaza. In the meantime, this
individual has a manifesto. The federal agents are going through
(09:02):
this now, and it's stunning. I mean, we just we
we this is not Berlin in the 1930s. This is
not in outside of a music camp. On September 7th, 2023,
these are the streets of Washington, D.C., gunned down for
one reason and one reason only. They were Jewish, but
(09:23):
they were Jewish believers in Yeshua. And today, they're with
him back after this. When the storms of life hit
with hurricane force, how do you respond? This month's truth
tool is the Mediterranean Sea Rules, where Robert Morgan writes
how God will redeem our tragedies for his purposes. Don't
(09:44):
just survive the storms. Learn to serve God in the
midst of them. As for your copy of the Mediterranean
Sea Rules, when you give a gift of any amount
in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's eight. 77.
Janet 58. Or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S7 (10:03):
It is deeply.
S5 (10:05):
Deeply shocking to me that this happened on American soil.
You know, like I said, we're in a war zone.
So my friend's son was killed in Gaza, and I
have another friend whose nephew was killed, you know, right
after the war started. And we're still in an active war.
So people are dying here. It's part of that when
(10:28):
you realize that people are dying around the world because
they're Jewish, because of anti-Semitism. It it's a whole nother level.
You know, I as an American immigrant, it it it
concerns me for all of my friends and family who
are still in America and around the world, who are Jewish.
And just because they're Jewish, they have to walk outside
(10:50):
and be aware. I mean, I have to think about
that when I travel with my kids and they call
me Emma and they call my husband ABBA. And I think, like,
who's listening? And what does this actually mean for the
reality of people around the world? And it's it's so
it's on one hand it's terrifying because you think about,
you know, you hear about what's happened obviously in our history,
(11:10):
but then you realize, like, this is our reality today.
And so what is happening? What are we doing about it.
And it's just it's hard. It's really hard because this
reality here in Israel is complicated. And I know it's complicated.
There's a lot of hurting people here in Israel. There's
a lot of hurting people in Gaza. There's a lot
of hurting people all around. But at the end of
(11:31):
the day, we're not walking around killing people just because
they're Palestinian. You know, we're not going to different places
around the world and attacking other people just because of
who they are. But it's not about freeing. I mean,
this is just a it's complicated. And so I'm not
going to get super political. But I think just the
hard thing about it is these people died on American
(11:52):
soil just because they're Jewish, you know? So it's just
it's discouraging in so many ways. And as a believer
in Yeshua, I know the end of the story, and
I know that God has a plan and a purpose,
and he's faithful to his word, and he's faithful to Israel,
and he's faithful to us as Jewish people. But walking
it out and walking out, the devastation of what this
(12:13):
means for our people and the fear that it potentially
brings on our people around the world is hard. It's
really difficult to to live in that and to carry that.
And we want to speak hope and love and life
at the same time. We're holding the tension of grief
and despair and and fear. And so, you know, how
do we balance and handle the reality of not walking
(12:35):
in fear and at the same time, seeing your friends
literally die just because they're they're they're the same thing
I am I'm, I'm Jewish. What if I was there?
S1 (12:44):
Mm. Vanessa mistretta. She is a part of Yaron Leszczynski's
messianic Congregation in Jerusalem. You're not going to hear this
in the alphabet soup. I wanted you to hear it.
Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Please pray for Sarah and Iran's families. They're shocked, they're stunned.
They're grieving. And you can hear the fear that's worked
(13:05):
its way through the community. This balancing here is Vanessa,
who believes in Yeshua, knows that he is her protector.
He is her Savior. He is the one who is
Lord over all and yet balancing every day, that day
to day fear. Am I going to be killed simply
because I am Jewish? Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
That was a stunning event in Washington. I needed you
(13:27):
to hear the rest of the story, because that's really
the true story behind all of this. Let me switch
gears now and go to a good news story. And boy,
this really is a good news story. I am thrilled
to have John Mack back on the program again. He's
a founding partner of Mouch and Baker. He's been an
attorney for over 40 years, and he represents a whole
lot of churches and ministries. And he got involved helping
a bunch of students in the Chicago public school system.
(13:50):
And that's exactly what we're going to talk about now.
A victory. John, you and I talked about this before
this settlement came down. But boy, there's an update that
we need to talk about before we get to where
we are today. And congratulations in advance. Let's talk about
the background of this case. What were the facts? Why
was there a legal action, a class action lawsuit started
(14:10):
in the first place?
S8 (14:12):
Well, we were contacted by members of parents and a
substitute teacher from the Chicago Public Schools about this religion
being taught in eight schools, eight high schools or seven
high schools in the junior high in Chicago. And parents
(14:35):
were upset. Students were upset. They'd come to realize that
it was Hinduism in disguise. Some of them talked about
it as being demonology, and this was being practiced in
the schools under the supervision of the mentors by the
David Lynch Foundation, who were teaching really Hinduism. It was
(14:59):
disguised Hinduism. But as we peel back the onion, we
saw more and more how it was the demonic invocation,
demonic meditation, mantras, uh, worship, all of which involved these
students who were who were minors at the time. So
(15:20):
I looked at I could hardly believe that this was happening, um,
because it was so blatant. But that's what brought the lawsuit.
We had several lawsuits that we brought on behalf of, uh, individuals.
And finally we decided it should be a class action.
So we, uh, asked the court to approve that. And
(15:42):
eventually it was approved as a class action on behalf
of 773 Of the students who had been forced to
go through the Hindu worship experience and participate in it.
S3 (15:56):
Wow.
S1 (15:57):
773 now you just said something important, and I want
to make sure my friends picked up on it. So
this wasn't merely an exposure to a different worldview. This
was and this is an important word as I understand it,
in your world, this was coercion that the kids had
to participate in what was being touted as transcendental meditation,
(16:17):
by the way, that's been around for a long period
of time, but it really is steeped in eastern mysticism, Hinduism.
And the kids didn't seem to have much of an
opportunity to say thanks, but no thanks. Did they go
into this thinking we're probably going to have a couple
of parents who are going to push back? What about
the kids who say, you know, this violates they might
not use these words, but we're acting out on the
(16:37):
belief that they had their own sincerely held set of beliefs,
and this was violative of what they believed. But there
didn't seem to be any recognition of that. I find
this interesting, John, because we've worshiped at the altar for
so long of dai, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion,
that one would have thought that if you were really
and truly a subscriber to that particular principle, you're not
(16:58):
going to coerce someone to have to participate in a
religious practice that's antithetical to what you believe. So when
we come back, if you pick it up at that
point and then remember, this ends as a good news story.
John is very much responsible for this. And let me
tell you also, John's written an absolutely fabulous book. It's
called Paul on Trial The Book of Acts as a
defense of Christianity. We've got a copy of that book
in our house. It's just fabulous. And it was a
(17:20):
finalist for the Evangelical Book of the year at one
point in time. So check that out. You can find
it wherever books are sold. But when we come back,
we're going to continue to herald this great victory where
parents and children were told, uh, don't have to participate
in this sorry, David Lynch Foundation hit the road, Jack,
back after this. We're visiting with John Mauck, who is
(17:45):
the man behind the class action lawsuit claiming that Chicago
high School students were coerced into practicing a Hindu ritual
invoking the religion's deities. And now there has been a settlement,
and we're excited to tell you about that in a minute.
But I want to go back and have you understand
how just violative this was. So, John, what's interesting when
you go back and review the facts of the case here,
(18:07):
it was like it was a Pavlovian dog's response to
the students. They got rewarded with pizza and snacks. If
they acted like they were representing the program, they got
sent to the dean's office. If they declined to participate.
Did nobody think that they weren't going to hit the
tripwire of coercion here?
S8 (18:21):
Well, they didn't start out knowing that this was a religion.
They started out being told, this will just relieve your stress,
and there's no religion at all full of lies and deceit.
Sign this permission slip. Do not tell your parents, especially
(18:42):
if they're religious about this. And Then 1415 year old
kids would be pulled out of class, taken to a
darkened room and said, this is just a ceremony honoring
the founders of TM. But in fact it was Hindu
incantations and invocations, uh, spoken in Sanskrit. And then the
(19:11):
students were were sucked into, uh, accepting it by, by
things like one student was given an orange and said,
put that in front of the image in front of you.
That was an illuminated picture of a guru. Another student
was told to kneel, and she was a Christian, and
(19:33):
she was in a bind because they said, if you
don't participate, it could affect your eligibility for the basketball team.
S1 (19:40):
Um, wow.
S8 (19:42):
So, uh, that's coercion. And she she decided to lie,
but she called her pastor right after that. She lied
and said, I have a bad knee. And so she
didn't have to kneel. But, uh, the pastor raised an
objection and people were objecting. But the Lynch Foundation, which
(20:03):
was running this and those in the school board, uh,
ignored for a long time all of the individual complaints.
And if somebody really wanted out, they could get out. But, uh,
most of the students were forced by social pressure.
S1 (20:21):
Um.
S8 (20:22):
Teachers, um, not wanting to have their grades affected as
well as the rewards you mentioned. So, uh, the deceit
and the coercion, uh, went hand in hand.
S1 (20:38):
Wow. Wow. And again, there's there's an inequitable distribution of
power when the teacher says you're not going to make
the basketball team unless you do this. There's no level
playing ground for the students there by any stretch of
the imagination. By the way, I want to tell our
friends that if that were David Lynch kind of rings
a little note in your head. Yes. We're talking about
that filmmaker who started this organization to get transcendental Meditation
(21:00):
into the schools. And, John, you know, it's interesting. There
was a case that the Supreme Court dealt with that
had to do with TM before. So I'm surprised that
Chicago would have just spread their arms so wide and
embraced this under the guise of trying to bring TM
into the school and we're going to have better peacemaking, blah, blah, blah,
and all the other stuff that they were selling.
S8 (21:17):
What happened is in the 1980, TM was established in
all of the public schools of new Jersey, and, uh,
Christians sued. And there was a there was a big trial.
And the judge ruled, yes, this is a religion. It
(21:38):
shouldn't be allowed. Uh, and the Third Circuit Court of
Appeals unanimously, Approved that judgment, affirmed it, and it did
not go to the Supreme Court. But it was there
on record. But the Chicago Public Schools either ignored that
(22:00):
and just went ahead, maybe because it was 40 years ago.
But but the practice of transcendental meditation is very controlled
of the Sanskrit invocations of the deities is you have
to say that perfectly. If you're going to be an
(22:23):
instructor and you have to give the mantras and the
mantras are secret, all of that stuff is very uniform.
And it was ruled to be a religion by a
court of appeals, and it was ruled to be a religion,
in our case by the district court in here in Chicago. So. um. Yeah,
(22:46):
they they're starting up all over.
S1 (22:49):
Um, yeah, yeah.
S8 (22:51):
The, the publication we got from the publicity we got
from this, uh, a lawsuit. I got a call from
a woman in Georgia and said they're doing it in
public schools in Georgia. They're calling it mindfulness. Um, they
have all of these, uh, deceitful, deceptive things in Chicago.
(23:12):
They called it quiet time. But you peel it back
and you, you feel it. You see that it's, uh, children, uh,
memorizing mantras, which are the names of Hindu deities and
15 minutes twice a day during the regular school hours,
(23:36):
all things would stop. It's time to meditate down the lights,
start thinking your mantra and repeating the mantra in your mind.
S3 (23:45):
Yeah.
S8 (23:46):
And that's that's coercion right there.
S1 (23:49):
100%. And one of the reasons, John, why I'm glad
we're having this conversation is because you are talking to
a national audience. And if you think this is a
one off in Chicago, you're wrong. But if you're thinking
school of doing this, let me tell you how the
story ends. The Chicago Public Schools and the David Lynch
Foundation for Consciousness-based Education and World Peace, each of them,
they have to pony up 1.3 million apiece, making it
(24:13):
a total of a $2.6 million settlement in favor of
the students. Thank you, John, for making that happen. There's
a reason we're told to look well to the ways
of our household parents. You are watchmen on the wall.
Don't look away. Thank you, John Beck. After this. If
(24:33):
what you hear on in the market with Janet Parshall
encourages you, enlightens you, engages you, and equips you, I
want to ask you to become a partial partner today.
This program depends on the faithful and ongoing support of
listeners just like you. By supporting this program on a regular,
ongoing monthly basis, you'll receive several benefits that only my
partners receive. So please call today eight 7758 or go
(24:56):
online to in the market with Janet Parshall. So let
me ask you a question. Do you have a biblical worldview?
You can talk among yourselves, use a lifeline, call a friend.
Do you know what you believe and why you believe it?
And how solid do you think your biblical worldview is? Well,
there's nobody like Doctor George Barne as far as I'm concerned.
(25:18):
Not only is his name synonymous with excellent research, but
this is a man who cares passionately that we are
raising the next generation to have a biblical worldview. And
in the process of pursuing that passion and training up
young champions for the Lord, he is doing the church
capital C universal a big favor. He is telling us
that we are drifting from the having that biblical worldview,
(25:41):
that so much of it goes right back to what
we're being taught from the word, from our shepherds, and
whether or not we're practicing applied Christianity and holding fast
to that which is good. So as a result of that,
he has been doing some superb work at the Cultural
Research Center. This is an arm of Arizona Christian University,
and he's been doing world review, worldview inventories, and I
(26:04):
can't wait for them to come out. I really am
passionate about every single one that comes out. And I've
asked Doctor Barnett to join us today to talk about
one of the latest. I understand there's even one after this,
but I want to talk about number five, which is
a survey that reveals significant shifts in faith, allegiance and
growing confusion about moral truth. That last part in particular
(26:25):
has me concerned because this program is called In the market,
because the whole point is to get you out into
the marketplace of ideas. How are you not going to
be Colossians taken captive through vain and hollow philosophies predicated
on this world, rather than on the Word of God
if you don't know the plumb line of absolute truth.
So exactly what did Doctor Barna find out? Doctor Barna,
(26:48):
the warmest of welcomes. I'm always interested. It's not usually
really good news, but it really is important news that
you share with us. So I want to thank you
for that, if you can. This is number five. Just
a quick word or two about the methodology, how you
get this information. And I don't think I have Doctor
(27:10):
Barna I'll try one more time. Doctor Barna, are you there?
We'll see if we can get him back on the air.
In the meantime, let me lead you to a couple
of things. If you'll go to the information page on
our website in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on
the red box that says Program Details and Audio. It
gets you over to what is, in essence, the daily
(27:30):
library for the program. It'll give you a longer bio
of our guest, a photograph of who they are, a
link to their website, and then there's always a resource
that's tied into the topic we're discussing Doctor Barner's latest book,
which speaks right into his passion about building a biblical worldview,
is called Raising Spiritual Champions, nurturing your child's mind, heart,
and Soul. So this is important, Mom and Dad, because
(27:53):
we have this very precious and important position of helping
our children get that solid biblical worldview. So raising spiritual champions,
by the way, if you're interested in following all of
the work done at the Cultural Research Center, I have
a link to that as well, so that you can
track every single time one of these new reports comes out,
we have Doctor Barna back with us again. Doctor Barna,
thank you so much. The question I was asking was,
(28:15):
tell me just a wee bit, if you can, about
the methodology. How do you get people's opinions in the
first place? What's your pool?
S9 (28:22):
Yeah, well, it's the adult population of America. And so
we have a way of reaching every household in America.
When you reach the household, then you, you know, have
a process you go through to try to figure out
what person in the household. You want to speak to,
you randomize that, and then you conduct the interview. And
(28:44):
we know that we can probably keep people engaged in
the interviews for up to 15, maybe 17 minutes. And
so we try to ask as many relevant questions as
we can within that period of time.
S1 (28:56):
How do the students ever get to do this? Or
is this a different firm that does it?
S9 (29:01):
Uh, no, we don't have the students do this. We
we have professionals that are doing this.
S1 (29:06):
And and there is an art to this. I ask
that just because I was thinking, boy, it'd be a
wake up call for the students, would it not in
so many cases to hear some of these responses from individuals.
S9 (29:15):
Well, you know, what we do with our students at
Arizona Christian is every year they do the worldview inventory
as well. And so at the beginning of every academic year,
they do it. And then before we'll hand them a diploma,
they do it one final time, a fifth time. We're
tracking their worldview their entire time when they're on campus.
(29:37):
This and we use that to look at our courses.
Doing the job is our faculty. The faculty we need.
Are these the right students? Do we need to recruit
different types of students? I mean, all of these kinds
of questions, we have conversations all throughout the year trying
to I mean, because I mean, the the differentiation point
for Arizona Christian is that we are a worldview development university.
(30:02):
That's why we exist. We don't care whether or not
you get a job. I mean, forgive me for saying
that it's important, but but I mean, the most important
thing is that when you get into the marketplace, you've
got the goods to interact with people about God's truth,
God's ways, God's principles, God's purposes. And that's why you're
(30:23):
on the planet. It's not so that you make a
lot of money and buy a big house. It's so
that you represent and advance his kingdom. And the only
way you can do that is if you're a disciple
of Jesus. And the only way you're going to be
a disciple of Jesus is if you think like him,
well guess what? The only way you think like him
is if you believe like him. Yeah, we do what
(30:43):
we believe. And so we want to make sure that
all of our students and ultimately everybody in the country
is able to think like Jesus so they can live
like Jesus, so they can serve him well.
S1 (30:54):
Amen. Boy, am I glad I asked you that question.
This goes far beyond Arizona Christian University. This is so
important for every single one of us. All right, now,
the troubling part. And by the way, again, I find
your your information so rich because it's so applicable. Just
my first response is always just from the world of evangelism.
For example, you pointed out in number five of the
(31:15):
American Worldview Inventory report for this year that there is
now objective fact. Okay, John Adams, facts are stubborn things.
The fact is, Christianity is in decline. Talk to me
about that. By what percentage? And if it's in decline,
are we seeing an uptick in other worldviews?
S9 (31:34):
Yeah, we are actually I mean, if we go back
to as recent as 2020, you know, just about 5
or 6 years ago, what we found was 72% of
adults described themselves as Christians. Now that's dropped to currently 66%.
That's a six percentage point drop. That means about 15
(31:56):
million people who used to think of themselves as Christians
no longer do so. And in that vacuum, what we've
had is a 56% rise in Buddhism, a 21% rise
in Judaism, 12% rise in Islam, 39% increase in all
non-Christian faiths. And there's also been an increase in terms
(32:20):
of those people who say they have no faith from
20 to 23%. So, I mean, we're clearly losing ground here.
I'm not a big advocate of saying, oh, we know
what's going on with the church capital C in America
by measuring how many people call themselves Christians. I like
to look deeper and figure out, yeah, what does it
(32:40):
mean to be a Christian? Because when we ask people
what it means, what they say, oh yeah, I'm a Christian.
What does that mean to you? It means I'm a
good person. And thank you for playing.
S1 (32:48):
Yeah, right. Exactly right. Wow. All right, so a couple
of questions. I find this fascinating in the other non-Christian
where you saw an uptick, it was 4% in 2025,
but that's an uptick of 77%. What constitutes that category?
S9 (33:03):
These are people who say that either they don't believe
that there's any God. They don't believe that religion has
anything to do with a person's life. They, uh, you know,
don't believe in any existing religious faith. They don't participate
in what they're doing. So that's all those groups, what
sometimes would be called agnostics, sometimes called atheists. And those
(33:27):
are different groups, obviously. But then also this more recent
group that a lot of people refer to as the
nones or the group that we measure, which we call
the don'ts. Those who don't believe that God exists don't
know if God exists, don't care if God exists.
S1 (33:42):
Wow. Now, I know you crunch the numbers, but, uh,
you you have the name doctor in front of your
name on purpose because you've done your homework and you
love research. I'm fascinated that out of all the categories,
we see a 56% uptick in those who have been
drawn to or attracted to Buddhism. Doctor Barnett, what do
you think is inherent in that worldview that's gotten greater subscribers?
S9 (34:05):
It's the most comfortable worldview available to us Americans. Americans
want comfort. You know, they want to feel good. They
want to feel good about themselves. They want to feel
good about the world. They want to feel that everything
is going to be peaceful and harmonious. And that's the
type of thing that Buddhism pushes. And so I think
that has a lot to do with the attraction, because
(34:26):
you see so much of that happening with young people.
S1 (34:29):
Wow. So the next part, and this is a ten
page report and I have a link to it, by
the way, on my website, so you can read this
for your own. And then I want you to get
so attracted that you're going to follow what the Cultural
Research Center does with every single one of their inventory reports.
This is one of a myriad of reports that are
out there. So talk to me about because I know
words are important, particularly when you're doing surveys. How did
(34:51):
you define absolute moral truth? I think it's important to
get that definition first.
S9 (34:57):
That there are things that are factually, empirically, tangibly accurate
and definable and defensible. It's not based on feelings, it's
not based on assumptions, but that there is a way
of showing or demonstrating or proving that these things are true.
(35:18):
And and then we relate that to morality that is
trying to understand what, uh, what is right or wrong,
because that's what morality refers to. So when we talk
about absolute moral truth, we're talking about things that are unchanging.
They're demonstrably, demonstrably true. And they're accurate for a person's life.
S1 (35:40):
Okay. So having beautifully defined that I'm going to leave
it hanging. And when we come back, I'd love to
see what your survey revealed in terms of that. I mean,
these are self-evident truths. If I can borrow the words
from the founders. And one would think that some things
are inarguably true, transcendent, apply to all people in all times,
in all places. But given the variance of worldviews that
we talked about a moment ago, that means that truth
(36:02):
is probably in the dock and up for definition. And
it goes right back to the idea that man does
what's right in his own eyes, becoming their own arbiter
of truth. So fascinating stuff. This is just number five
for this year. It's the 2025 American Worldview Inventory. This
is report number five, growing confusion about moral truth and
(36:22):
shifts in faith allegiance. Fascinating stuff. Back after this. We're
talking with Doctor George Barna, who's the director of research
and co-founder of the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University.
Marvelous author as well. Let me just plug his latest book,
Raising Spiritual Champions Nurturing Your Child's Heart, mind and Soul.
(36:45):
You know, the data on these worldview inventories could be
different if you and I were looking well to the
ways of our household and doing just what the title
implies raising spiritual champions. So the American Worldview Inventory is
something that the Cultural Research Center puts out on a
regular basis. We're talking about report number five, which talks about,
among other things, confusion and drift when it comes to
(37:06):
moral truths. So you just gave the definition just before
the break, Doctor Barnett, of what moral truth is now
based on the variances in the religious worldviews. I'm expecting
some very interesting numbers on here. But let me start
with Christians. Surely we're at 100% in believing in absolute
moral truth.
S9 (37:24):
Yeah, that'd be great. Um, unfortunately, no, we're not we're
not that distinct Inked from the rest of the culture.
There are a lot of different truth measures that we
have in this report and the subsequent report, where we
compare different segments of the Christian body, let's say theologically identified,
(37:45):
born again Christians compared to self-identified Christians, compared to Catholics,
compared to Protestants, compared to subgroups within the Protestant community, evangelicals,
mainline Protestants, Pentecostals. And yes, there are differences. But the
key thing to understand is that wherever the culture comes
(38:06):
out on these kinds of measures, we're only a few
percentage points different on virtually everything that we're measuring, with
the exception of a single group, single faith group that
we measure. And that's a group we label integrated disciples.
Those are the 4% of the adult population who have
(38:28):
a biblical worldview. They are consistently, radically different. And of course,
their answers veer toward whatever the scriptures teach, but they
are the only spiritual segment that we find that's consistently
different from the national norms.
S1 (38:45):
Wow. That is stunning. Unbelievable. You have a section in
the report that I thought was interesting as to where
people would turn to get truth. Moral truth. 59% for Christians. Again,
not 100%. But again, part of that is probably tied
back to how you define the word Christian. But what
I found very problematic is that if you look at Mormonism,
Islam and Judaism, that had the same percentage point as
(39:08):
Friedrich Nietzsche and Plato. And so it's I mean, these
are bizarre comparisons. Wicca gets thrown in there, secular humanism
gets in there. L Ron Hubbard gets thrown in there
from Scientology. I mean, absolutely amazing. So if you don't
know what truth is, obviously you're not going to be
able to identify what a correct or incorrect source is
for truth as well. So there's a corollary. There is
(39:30):
there not?
S9 (39:31):
There is. And the other thing to keep in mind
related to this is that these are sources that people
identify as potential sources of truth. But there are a
couple of things that are vitally important to understand. One
is that most people do not turn to the Bible
consistently for moral truth, absolute or otherwise. They will turn
(39:56):
to it when it's comfortable, when it's available, when they
think it's going to tell them what they want to hear,
or whatever it may be. There are a whole range
of reasons that we uncovered, but by and large, people
do not perceive the Bible to be a source of
absolute moral truth. The other thing that's vitally important to
recognize is that most Americans, more than four out of
(40:18):
every five adults in America, are very comfortable picking and
choosing from a variety of sources of what they may
consider to be truth. So when we're talking about significant numbers,
you know, millions of Americans saying that they believe sources
of truth include the Book of Mormon, the Five Dialogues
by Plato, the Book of Shadows from Wicca, and a
(40:41):
whole list that we have there. What that means is
that at any given moment, Christian or not, in their orientation,
they may choose to turn to some of these other
sources because they know that they're either available or they
may have things that interest them. And because they don't
believe there's any such thing as absolute moral truth, all
(41:03):
of these sources of truth are perceived to be of
equal value. And that's mind blowing.
S1 (41:09):
You're unbelievable. Now, let me just pull over to the
side of the road and ask you a philosophical question.
This has a radical impact, it seems to me, on
the world of evangelism. 20 years ago, we could have said,
here's the truth, and his name is truth. And someone
would say, that's it. That's the truth I've been looking for.
If you believe that, you can pull truth from multiple sources.
And another point that you make in your observations was
(41:32):
two out of three believed truth is conditional. Well, that
means situational ethics. It doesn't. Truth no longer applies to
all people in all times and all places. The situation
means that any means whatsoever is justifiable. As long as
you get to your desired end and you can make
it up as you go along. If I can put
it in common parlance, wow, that's going to have an
impact and being able to share the truth of the gospel,
(41:53):
does it not?
S9 (41:54):
Absolutely. And it's one of the reasons why, you know,
when I'm working with students or any group at a
church or whatever, I tell them, look, you have got
to start to see yourself not only as a disciple
of Jesus, that's your identity, but the tools that you
take into the marketplace have to include the capacity to
defend the gospel. And in order to do that, you've
(42:17):
got to be able to engage people in Socratic conversations
where you're not assuming that they're coming from the same
base of knowledge and logic as you are, but what
you're trying to do, first and foremost is establish a relationship.
Ask them what they believe and then start digging into
it really well. Why do you believe that? You know,
(42:38):
how did you come to that conclusion? What experiences have
you had that made you think maybe that was the
right way? Have you seen anything that's different than I mean,
have at your disposal, ready to roll with all of
these kinds of questions that will enable you to not
show the person how, how wrong they are, but to
(42:58):
get the person to recognize how wrong they are because
they hear their own answers and they realize, wow, that's
not too smart, is it? I can't really defend that.
Let's talk about this. And that's exactly where you want
to go.
S1 (43:11):
Wow. And it seems to me also it behooves the
believer to be a little more culturally engaged. This is
a act 17 thing, it seems to me. Paul walks
around for Athens for a year and a half before
he gives that address at the Areopagus, and so his
observations are. They subscribe to all of these multitudinous worldviews.
I see you are a very religious people. If we
(43:31):
don't start with the idea that for the cause of
the cross and the message of the gospel, we are
going to engage, then we don't do our homework. We're
not prepared at all. So I think it's important for
us to have some semblance of you don't have to
know it all, but I think I want to know
where someone's coming from. You know, I see you're a
very religious people so that I can ask the questions
that you just gave as a perfect example and listen
(43:53):
with the ears on my heart there. There's so much
richness in your reports, Doctor Barnett. I can't thank you
enough for them. So let me get my friends to
do two things. I want you to click on to
the Cultural Research Center. Start reading every one of these.
They're not written in such a highfalutin, high education manner
that you and I can understand. And they're written so
that the numbers are there for you to understand. And
it's a wake up call first and foremost for your house,
(44:15):
second for you. Third of all, when you go out
into the mission field, which is that spot right outside
your front door. Also get Doctor Barnes's book Raising Spiritual Champions.
Thank you, Doctor Barnett. Thank you friends. We'll see you
next time.
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