May 7, 2025 • 44 mins
Throughout China's rapidly growing cities, a new wave of unregistered house churches is growing. They are developing rich theological perspectives that are both uniquely Chinese and rooted in the historic doctrines of the faith. To understand how they have endured despite government pressure and cultural marginalization, we must understand both their history and their theology. Join us as we discover the writings of those who live under Communist oppression and yet still live by faith. Learn what it means to be faithfully disobedient.
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S1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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(00:40):
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at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth
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please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:38):
Extremely rare safety move by a 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated every time.
S6 (01:44):
The Bush tax is not.
S1 (01:59):
Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall
and a very happy Wednesday to you. Hope you're having
a great week. Well, the president of the United States
travels to the Middle East later this week. And I
don't know about you because I think if we're traveling
through life appropriately with the Bible in one hand and
the newspaper in the other, I'm always watching the nation
of Israel, and I'm interested in the neighboring nations as well.
(02:23):
So what sorts of things will they talk about? Trade.
Probably oil. Absolutely. Terrorism. Aha! Without a doubt. And in
the meantime, I wonder what sorts of things the president
and his entourage will hear about the nation of Israel.
There will be a challenge before the president, as there
is always to push back from our support of the
nation of Israel. But I don't know if that's going
(02:46):
to happen or not, because the president just announced yesterday
that the Houthis. Remember, these are in Yemen, backed by Iran.
It's always a proxy engagement with Iran have agreed to
stop attacking global shipping in the Red sea. Hugely important
for global economy. Israel? Not so much. They're not quite
so sure. Here's more from CBN news.
S7 (03:07):
Trump made the stunning announcement during an Oval Office meeting.
S8 (03:10):
The Houthis have announced that they are not, or they've
announced to us at least, that they don't want to
fight anymore. And we will honor that. And we will, uh,
we will stop the bombings. And they have capitulated.
S7 (03:28):
Oman, who helped negotiate the agreement, said the Houthis agreed
to stop attacks on U.S. ships in the Red sea.
The Houthis, however, say they are, quote, evaluating the cease
fire proposal. The announcement appears to leave Israel on its
own to defend itself against the Houthis. The Iranian backed
terror group says it will continue to attack Israel, warning
(03:49):
that going to hit the Jewish state so hard in
coming days that all Israelis should stay in their bomb shelters.
That threat comes after Israeli warplanes devastated the Houthis main
shipping port and its airport in attacks this week. Video
showed airliners blown apart and buildings ablaze at the airport
in Sana'a.
S9 (04:09):
It is also the airport, as I understand it, that
is highly strategic, through which arms are coming, that are
coming from Iran and other places that are used in
these missile attacks on Israel.
S7 (04:21):
The massive strike was retaliation for the Houthis hitting Israel's
Ben Gurion airport with a missile Sunday.
S10 (04:28):
I said that the Houthi attack would be answered not
with a bang and were done, but with bangs.
S7 (04:33):
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned those banks could soon
hit the Houthis main backer as well.
S10 (04:42):
And this also concerns the patron of the Houthis. Iran,
without whose approval and long term support the Houthis cannot
carry out their criminal missile attack on us.
S7 (04:50):
Israel's defence defense minister branded Tehran and its proxies the
Iranian octopus as he threatened the regime.
S11 (04:57):
I know you bear direct responsibility for every attack by
the Houthi octopus arm against the state of Israel, and
you will also bear the full consequences.
S7 (05:09):
Iran claims the Houthis in Yemen are acting on their own.
S12 (05:14):
All accusations against Iran in connection with what Yemenis are
doing are baseless.
S7 (05:20):
Meanwhile, President Trump is reiterating his desire to make a
deal rather than bomb Iran to keep it from developing nukes.
S8 (05:27):
This is really crunch time. I will tell you, for
Iran and for their country, this is a very important
time for Iran. This is the most important time in
the history of Iran for Iran. And I hope they
do what's right, but they can't have a nuclear weapon.
And if they choose to go a different route, it's
going to be a very sad thing. And it's something
(05:48):
we don't want to have to do. But we have
no choice. They're not going to have a nuclear weapon.
They're not going to have a nuclear weapon.
S7 (05:53):
Chris Mitchell CBN news, Jerusalem.
S1 (05:56):
You know the president also said something else at the
same time. He said and we want it to be
a great country. Let it be a tremendously successful rich country.
They have everything you need. The people are incredible. They
have vast amounts of oil and assets. We want it
to be a successful country. We don't want it to
do anything that's going to get in the way of that.
But they can't have a nuclear weapon. And if they
choose to go a different route, it's going to be
(06:17):
a very sad thing. And that's something we don't want
to have to do. But we have no choice. They're
not going to have a nuclear weapon. They're not going
to have a nuclear weapon. Do you understand that? Okay, now,
I'm so glad that Doctor Herman will be joining us
in a few days so that he can offer us again,
key insight. Remember, again, the vast majority of Iranians live
below the poverty line. The animus here is not against
(06:39):
the Iranian people who let the record reflect her overwhelmingly pro-Israel.
It is the ayatollahs. It's the theocratic leaders that are
calling the shots here. Israel is the little Satan. America
is the Great Satan in their Islamic eschatology. Just like
the Chinese want global hegemony. Interesting. Nimrod was just the
forerunner of all of this kind of rebellious thinking. Just
(07:02):
like China wants global hegemony, Iran wants global Islam. And
in order for that to happen, there has to be
an apocalypse of a global nature. And then their Mahdi,
their equivalent of a messiah. Although it's a false messiah,
comes forth. So the idea of destruction and mayhem, they
think somehow is there stepping into their theological mandate to
(07:24):
bring about this Islamic domination. Now that's tough. You're not
just fighting someone who says, I want to grab land.
I want to steal your assets. I want to further
our boundaries for more natural resources and population distribution. This
is about saying we, Islam is going are going to
dominate the world. And so I think it's important. And
(07:45):
I do think that the the octopus is a great idea.
I'm glad the defense minister in Israel refers to it
as the Iranian octopus. What does an octopus have? Multiple
tendril outreaches, right. So Hamas is funded back door from Iran,
Hezbollah in Lebanon funded back door from Iran, the Houthi, Yemen's.
Despite their protestations, they are funded by Iran. And so
(08:07):
what they're doing is they're testing the tensile strength of
Israel and could be, by the way, trying to draw
the United States into a greater global conflict. Now, I
shared with you yesterday that the U.S. has been moving
warships into that part of the world. So they're making
their presence known. It's kind of like the you want
a piece of this line out of a movie, right?
But the bottom line is Iran cannot get a nuclear bomb.
(08:28):
Do you remember? And I'm sure you did, because we
talked about it here, but I think you remember it
as well. Benjamin Netanyahu comes to the United Nations. He's
standing in front of that green marble wall. He holds
up a drawing, looked very simplistic. Some people mocked it.
But simplicity often gets across very complex ideas. He drew
a picture of a bomb. He drew a line about
halfway through up the bomb and he said, this is
how far Iran is. If they get here, they have
(08:49):
total nuclear capability. We must not, he said. At that
point in time in history, let them get to that
point in development of their nuclear weapon. Well, just think
how much more that bomb has filled up since Netanyahu
has given that speech. So this is a prescient danger.
It is a real and present concern. And as the
president travels to the Middle East, you and I ought
to be praying for wisdom, for discernment, for insight, quick
(09:12):
to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, and understand
that it isn't just these countries in isolation. It is
all of the Middle East, all of the ideas that
are being thrown together in a percolating pot. We need
God's help. Back after this. When your plans collapse, make
(09:35):
sure you don't. That's just one of ten powerful principles
in this month's truth Tool. The Mediterranean Sea Rules by
Robert Morgan draws life changing lessons from Paul's shipwreck recorded
in acts. Learn to navigate through the storm with faith
and courage. As for your copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
when you give a gift of any amount to in
the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go
(09:56):
to in the market with Janet Parshall. Have you ever
stopped to consider why we talk about the persecuted church
so much on this broadcast? Well, I'll tell you again,
because I tell you, every time we talk to people
(10:16):
like Bob Fu of Chinaaid or Todd Nettleton or Open
Doors or Doctor Herman Shariat, and the list goes on
and on and on. These faithful servants who come back
after their travels and tell us about the persecuted church
and how we need to pray for our brothers and sisters.
After all, the Bible tells us when one part of
the body hurts, we all hurt, and we're supposed to
(10:36):
pray for those who've been led away in chains, but
I think there's a deeper reason also why we need
to be talking about this. What do our brothers and
sisters in the persecuted church know? What are they experiencing?
What have they learned that we ourselves need to know
and learn and practice here in the West? We have discrimination.
We have bigotry, but we don't have outright persecution yet
(10:59):
in this country. But I believe because we're told in
the Word of God that when not if, those fiery
trials come, we should be gleaning every bit of knowledge
and insight and wisdom we can for our brothers and
sisters who are paying the price for saying, yes, Lord.
And that's exactly what we're going to talk about this hour,
with a focus particularly on the church in China. Now
I'm going to start with the good news. There are
(11:21):
more Bible believing, born again Christians in China than there
are in all of the United States. So let that
sink in. We are talking about a massive group of
believers who, despite the oppression of the communist regime, the
church continues to grow. Now let that sink in. Why?
In a state of oppression, outright hatred, animosity, destruction, imprisonment,
(11:42):
false charges. Does the church continue to grow? If anything,
if we led with our comfort zone, wouldn't we say, oh, no,
cost is too dear. I'm not going to follow Jesus
at all. I'm going to retreat. I will absolutely bow
in submission to Caesar and all that he demands of me.
But yet that's not happening in China. Therefore, there must
be something very important we need to learn from our
(12:02):
brothers and sisters. That's why I've asked Hannah Nation to
join us today. She's the managing editor of the center
for House Church Theology. She's a writer, and she's a
student of missions history in world Christianity. And she's inspired
by this historical movement and the privilege of witnessing a
new chapter of church history that's taking place all across China.
She writes with insight. She writes with deep intellect, and
(12:23):
she writes with passion. She is joining us today because
she has edited an amazing book, the translation of writings
by some of our brothers and sisters, particularly Wang Yi.
And the book is called Faithful Disobedience, subtitled Writings on
Church and State from a Chinese House Church Movement. Hannah,
the Warmest of welcomes. I'm thrilled you're here. And I
(12:44):
have a million questions. And I know I won't get
through all of them, but let me dive in feet
first into the deep end of the pool. First you.
How did you get interested in what was going on
in China?
S13 (12:56):
Well, thank you so much for having me. I first
went to China as a college student. Um, it was
really kind of out of nowhere. I hadn't had previous
connections to China, but a group of my friends from
school went and taught English for a summer. And that
same year, my dad actually is a physics professor, and
(13:20):
he had a Chinese grad student who came to faith.
And those two things coinciding just I don't know, they
just triggered something in me. I became really curious. Um,
I was a history major and I'd heard a lot
about the church's growth in China. And I just thought,
I just really want to go see it. I also
wanted to see the Great Wall. So, um, I signed
(13:44):
up and went to teach English the next summer. That
was back in 2005. And basically have just been hooked
ever since. Um, it's hard to go and not be
really blown away by the number of people there and
how old the culture is, and the Lord has just
kept me in this work since then.
S1 (14:05):
Wow. Do you ever stop and just smile and think
that the Lord has a great sense of humor, that
your last name is nation, and you're interested in church
history on a global level? How John Bunyan esque. I
think it's absolutely perfect, by the way.
S13 (14:19):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's a it's a married name.
I got it when I married my husband. And yeah, I,
we often, uh, chuckle to ourselves, especially when you're sitting
in church and they say something like, now it's time
for us to pray for the nations. And it's always like, oh,
thank you.
S14 (14:38):
I love that. Wow.
S1 (14:40):
Well, I want and I'm so thankful you're here. And
we brother Yang is sitting behind prison bars, so you
are becoming his voice to a national audience here. And
I'm so grateful for that. And I want to back
up a little bit and ask about the the compilation
of the book. First of all, their translations. Now, these
have been readily available in Chinese, but they haven't been
readily available in English. And for some reason they have
(15:02):
made it into the halls of academia. Why the receptivity?
Is it a geopolitical response as opposed to a theological one?
But why has it taken such a long time for
these historic, powerful statements of faith and declaration of belief
and the in the Reformed Church? Uh, fashion? Why have
they taken so long to work to the church writ
(15:23):
large here in America, but in academia in particular?
S13 (15:28):
That's an excellent question. That's one I think about a lot.
I'd say that's a driving motivation in my work is, uh,
basically trying to change that and help bring these writings
out from China. I mean, I think there's probably foundationally
just a very simple answer, which is that, um, not
(15:49):
a lot of people can read Chinese in the Western world.
And so, um, we really rely on translation, and I
spend a lot of time just thinking about how much
in today's global church, um, just the, the gifts of
the linguistic gifts of translators are desperately needed. This is
(16:12):
how it's possible for us to hear from each other.
And I think we really need to put more of
an emphasis on on thinking about that as a spiritual
gift in order to help us hear from each other
and learn from each other. So, I mean, I think
in terms of these writings, these particular writings, um, it,
(16:33):
you know, so I've been working in this particular work,
translating and bringing writings out from China for about seven
years now. Um, maybe a little longer than that. Um,
but basically, um, it takes a lot of time. It
takes a lot of investment and, um, it takes a
lot of work. And so it's just taken us a
(16:54):
while to build the team that's needed to do this.
S1 (16:58):
Well, thank you. On behalf of everybody listening. And for
the church in general, I don't mean to be presumptive
on the church's behalf, but oh, what we need to
hear from our persecuted brothers and sisters, the depth of
their commitment to Christ. They're absolutely strong adherence to the
centrality of Christ and His Word. And this book is
just precious beyond words. So let me take a break
(17:19):
and come back. We're going to learn more about the writings,
The man and the House church movement in Communist China
with Hannah Nation right after this. Hannah Nation is with us.
She's the managing director of the center for House Church Theology,
(17:41):
and she's a writer and a student of missions, history
and world Christianity. And she joins us as the editor
of a book called Faithful Disobedience. These are the writings
of Wang Yi. He's known globally, by the way, but
his writings have predominantly been in Chinese. And we, the
church in particular, need to hear what he has to say.
And he writes on church and state from a Chinese
(18:02):
house movement perspective, which I think takes us to where
we need to go first. Hannah, what I've discovered is
that there are a lot of people in the church,
and this is not a point of condemnation. This is
the joy of doing a program like this, is that
we don't have a lot of working knowledge. We don't
know Three-Self from House church. We don't know what the
underground church means. We don't know what the current state
is with President XI and what his proposals are for
(18:23):
his very Mao esque worldview. So I want to unpack
terms so that people can understand atmospherically what Wang and
others like him have to deal with. So when we
talk about the House church in China, what do we mean?
S13 (18:36):
Really what we mean is churches that refuse to register
with the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, which is essentially China's state church. Um,
it's they continue to call themselves the House church. So, um,
the term that you'll, you'll hear Christians in house churches
(18:57):
use to reference themselves and the churches they're in is
house church. But, um, they don't necessarily mean churches that
are meeting in private homes. Often these churches are much
larger than is feasible to meet in a private home. Um,
they often will meet in settings like hotel conference rooms
(19:20):
or meeting rooms. Um, some churches are able to rent
commercial space or even own property. That was particularly true
up until 2018. Um, really, for the last couple of decades,
there was just this period of relative openness. And so
you saw, um, some pretty large churches in Beijing and
(19:42):
in Chengdu, like early reign, Wang Yi's church. But in 2018, um,
a new set of religious regulations began to be implemented.
And we're really in a new era, um, for Christianity
in China again, really for all religious practice, it's it's
not just Christians, but all religions across China are dealing
(20:06):
with a new set of regulations and essentially pressure from
the government to comply. So, um, we I wouldn't say
that persecution is anywhere, Where, you know, back to where
it was during the Cultural Revolution or, you know, the
middle of the 20th century. But this is certainly a
(20:26):
time of increased persecution once again of the churches in China.
And that really began in 2018.
S1 (20:33):
It's fascinating because there is such an intersection in so
many parts of the world when it comes to Christianity,
with the geopolitics of that area. And it isn't being
political by acknowledging that, it's helping us understand how then
shall we live atmospherically in that particular area? So 18
parallels Xi's desire to really return to very Maoist kind
of ideas. Now he's basically made himself leader for the
(20:54):
rest of his life. He's been unambiguous in his desire
for hegemony. And of course, the core tenet here is
that allegiance to anything but the state is not going
to be functional if you want to continue to spread communism,
if you have allegiance to Christ, it stands in stark
opposition to the government. So that raises a couple of questions.
If you know, particularly post 2018, that there is an
(21:16):
uptick in Tic and aggression against Christians and religious minorities.
Let's not forget the Uyghurs as well. That's another perfect example.
But why would they? I mean, my first question is
a Western Christian is, oh my goodness, you met in
a hotel room and the government knows where you are.
I mean, my goodness, they have surveillance everywhere. They have
the the credit system that's viewed all over the country,
for heaven's sakes. So how in the world then can
(21:37):
you turn around and say, I'm going to meet in
a hotel room? Because in some respects in the West,
we might say, isn't that like flagging a red flag
in front of a raging bull? And yet they do it.
How come?
S13 (21:49):
Well, there are two, two different aspects to the answer
to that. One is that a lot of persecution in
China is still very pocketed. So it follows just as
the topic overall follows geopolitical trends, it also follows trends
within China. Um, essentially places where pressure is highest politically
(22:11):
within the country. That's also where you will see increased
persecution of Christians. Places where, um, you know, prosperity is high. Um,
the everything feels stable to the local authorities. Um, persecution
often is is less there. And so, for example, you know,
pastors I know who are able to meet in um, hotels,
(22:35):
they are in places of relative prosperity and stability places,
pastors I know whose churches are under, you know, very
heavy persecution. They're often in poorer areas. They're often in
places where, um, there's just a lot more uncertainty. And
it's an easy way, um, for governing local provincial authorities
(22:57):
to essentially curry favour with the central government. Um, kind
of similar to a lot of different areas of life.
You know, if you are trying to look powerful, um,
it's easy to do so by, um, pressing down on
those who you know aren't following the laws, whether that is, uh,
(23:19):
you know, actual criminal activity or whether that's something like
the churches. So, um, yeah. So I think that's one question,
one way to answer it. The other way, though, is that,
I mean, I think all these pastors are very committed
to the church being able to be found. They really
believe that the church is the best gift they can
(23:40):
give their cities. And so they want to be wise.
They want to not make foolish decisions, but they are
very committed to doing whatever it takes for their churches
to be available to people. And sometimes that means taking
the risk of meeting a more open places.
S14 (23:57):
Wow.
S1 (23:57):
So just even the passive listener to what you just said.
So there's a depth of commitment. There's an adherence again
to the purpose of the church. And there's a sense
of courage there that if it's good for the city,
if it helps us get the message of the cross out,
then maybe we'll have to be more public in our meeting. Wow.
There's going to be so much to discuss. We're already
(24:18):
at the halfway mark. I'm so glad you're with us
for the rest of the hour, Hannah. The book is
called Faithful Disobedience Writings on Church and State from a
Chinese House church movement back after this. Tired of the endless,
biased spin you hear on mainstream media and in the market,
(24:41):
we're using God's Word as our guide as we examine
today's events, and we want you to be informed and
bold about his truth. This is a listener supported program,
so if you value what you hear and you want
us to continue on your station, become a partial partner
with your monthly support, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758
or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org.
(25:05):
We are visiting with Hannah Nation who is the editor
of the book Faithful Disobedience. Writing on church and state.
From a Chinese House movement, a church movement. She is
the managing editor of the center for House Church Theology,
a writer, and a student of missions, history, and world Christianity.
And I am so very grateful that she is bringing
to our attention the church here in the West, in particular,
(25:28):
what our brothers and sisters have learned and what they need,
and we must hear from them on a regular basis.
So oh, and as I said before, my frustration is
that it's a very, very rich book, and I'm barely
throwing a stone across a quiet pond here. But I
need to get to the person of Wang Yi because
we talked about the house church. You write that they're
theologically engaged, that really when we talk about the house church,
(25:50):
it's everything from evangelicals, Charismatics, reformed, and the Catholic Church
as well. But now we need to find out who Mr.
Wang Yi is. And he's not just a pastor, but
he had training as an attorney. Teach us more about him.
S13 (26:04):
Yeah. He's a very fascinating person. Um, so before he
became a Christian, he was trained as a legal scholar. Um,
and he taught at the university in Chengdu. And, um, basically,
he was a pretty prominent human rights advocate. Um, he
was involved with a lot of the just advocacy and, um,
(26:29):
movements in China. He was a prominent thinker. Um, he
really was, you know, a pretty public intellectual. Um, he wrote, uh,
avidly online, um, very active in blogging, uh, the Chinese
blogging world and publishing in all sorts of different online
(26:49):
journals and very active on Chinese social media. And, um, basically,
he became a Christian and, um, very quickly began pastoring. And, um,
he didn't stop writing or Are thinking, even after he
became a Christian and, um, began wrestling through all the
(27:11):
things that he'd been wrestling through, um, from a Christian perspective. And, um,
just a very avid reader, um, when you read his writings,
I mean, he just he's referencing all sorts of different things.
And one of the things that I love, uh, reading
his work is that, um, you know, on the same page,
(27:32):
he'll reference, um, some aspect of Chinese pop culture, and
then he'll turn around and he'll reference some, you know,
you know, well-known, uh, 17th century political scholar from, um,
Europe and somehow ties it all together. Um, so he's
(27:53):
a very, um, he has a very fruitful mind. Um,
he's been just, you know, his output is massive. What
we have in the book is, frankly just a small
portion of of his work and his writings. But what
we've put in the book is, has, you know, we
determined has is some of his most important writing.
S1 (28:15):
Yes, yes. For sure. Let me point out a couple
of things that you write about in the book that
I think is extremely interesting, clearly. Obviously, he's an empath.
He cares for his fellow man. Uh, I would guess
he's a mercy giver, because in April of 2005, they
start hosting a Bible study in their apartment. He's not
even a believer. But as a result of this, shortly
after he comes to faith, he gets baptized. And then
(28:37):
he starts to serve in a Bible study group. And
that that's called the Early Reign Fellowship, which I'm guessing
was that a forerunner for the church itself?
S13 (28:47):
Mhm. Yeah. Essentially that group grew into, um, the church,
which eventually grew to be quite large, as I mentioned already. Um,
they had um, somewhere around 500, 600 people. Um, attending
or involved in their church, um, before they were shut
(29:07):
down in 2018. So it grew very quickly. And um,
and I mean, even that number, they had planted several churches. Um,
so their impact was quite significant across, uh, Chengdu in
southwest China.
S14 (29:20):
Wow.
S1 (29:21):
And the Lord is sovereign and perfect and knew what
the future held for Wang. But, boy, before he found
himself behind bars, God was using him in a powerful way.
You point out that in 2006, he met with President
George W Bush at the white House. He was representing
China's Christian intellectuals. He was there in 2008 to attend
the conference for Global Christians in Law, and was awarded
(29:44):
the prize for the contribution to promoting religious freedom. So
this is in his DNA. So I'm when you begin
and as you say, this is just a small portion
of the plethora of writings that he has done. But
like you said, he's deep intellectual, so he can go
from pop culture to a 17th century philosopher. And he
moves both ways with fluidity because he's a deep thinker.
(30:06):
He's also an advocate for the gospel. Even though he
was a lawyer by training, he becomes quickly an advocate
for the gospel. And his adherence to the centrality is
it comes through so loud and clear. When you look
at some of the titles of the pieces that he's written.
The City of God on Earth, The Way of the
cross and the life of the martyr. Uh, 20 Ways
to persecution is God's way to shepherd us. I mean,
(30:29):
these were all pre-prison, am I right?
S13 (30:33):
Yep. Yeah. We don't have any of his writings or.
I mean, I don't know. We don't know much about
his time in prison. So, um, if he has been writing,
we don't have anything that that he's been writing.
S1 (30:45):
So you say that he prays for a Bible, a
pen and a paper, and we don't even know if
he can get that. So let's go back to the
day of the arrest. How was he arrested? I read
his letter, by the way, which you included in this
book on the air shortly after he was arrested because
his declaration of faithful disobedience should be tacked on the
wall of every Christian home. And we should read that
(31:06):
after our time in the world, every single day we
sing I surrender all Sunday morning. Do we really know
what it means to live that out? So talk about
the facts behind his arrest. What happened?
S13 (31:16):
Yeah. Um, so he knew, I think, that, uh, he
was heading towards an arrest, um, the summer of 2018.
He had already spent 48 hours in jail. And, um,
when he was released from that, I believe he really
understood that something more significant was coming. So in the
(31:40):
fall of 2018, uh, he that's when he wrote my
declaration of faithful disobedience. He wrote it essentially to prepare
a last statement. Um, should he be arrested? Um, knowing
that he really wouldn't be given an opportunity to publicly
defend himself, um, if he was sentenced, um, within, you know,
(32:02):
the Chinese system. So, um, December 9th of 2018, um,
he was arrested and not only him, but his wife, um,
was arrested with him. Um, they have a teenage son
who began, um, residing with Wang Yi's mother. And, um,
(32:27):
all of the church leadership, uh, of early rain was
also arrested. And then basically, over the ensuing weeks and months, um,
roughly half of early Rain's members, um, faced some kind
of arrest, harassment, um, interference of some kind ranging quite
(32:49):
significantly from, you know, relatively small, um, interactions with the
authorities to much, much larger and more difficult things, such
as um, being essentially deported from Chengdu to other parts
of China, um, being forcefully evicted from homes. Um, there
were groups of mothers who weren't allowed to take their
(33:10):
kids out to play. Um, it was a very intense, um,
altercation essentially between the authorities and not only Wang Yi,
but early reign. And I think that's important to note because, um,
Wang Yi is serving a nine year jail sentence, and
that is very intense. But his whole congregation has really
(33:32):
suffered alongside with him and endured with him in this.
S1 (33:37):
Wow. Now, as I understand it, the wife has since
been released. Is that correct?
S13 (33:42):
Yeah. Um, she's been released. She was released shortly before
or shortly after he was sentenced. So he was arrested
in December of 2018. He wasn't sentenced until December of 2019,
so she was held for about a year. And then
after his sentencing, she was released, which often happens. Um,
(34:02):
they often don't want the the wife or any direct
family members to be present at the trial or the sentencing. Um,
so she was returned home. She has been under house arrest. Um,
it has, um, obviously been a very difficult time for
the family. Um, she has.
S1 (34:24):
Endured.
S13 (34:25):
Quite a lot. Yeah.
S1 (34:26):
And I understand that the son struggled. Um, is he
doing better?
S13 (34:32):
I, I believe so, you know, I don't have any
direct connection to them. So, um, my understanding is, is that, uh,
both his wife and his son are physically. Well, um,
I'm sure there are many things that they, you know,
many hardships that they are enduring. Um, particularly I think
(34:56):
one of probably the, the most difficult things is that
they're very limited in their ability to connect with their
friends and, you know, their former church members. And so
I think they are very isolated in many ways, uh,
relationally and emotionally and spiritually.
S1 (35:15):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. At one point in time, and this
is where it gets confusing for so many people, is
that if you look at basically the Chinese church, uh, the, the,
the Three-Self, uh, there were actually Christians and I let
me just stop in my sentence here, cumbersome though it
may be. I have to tell you how many times
I was reading the book. I kept thinking of the
(35:35):
Confessing Church in Germany. I mean, there really is nothing
new under the sun. So you had Christians who just
went along with Nazism and decided that they would bow
in acquiescence to what the regime was demanding. But then
you had those who were the Confessing Church. And of course,
we think immediately of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. There is a semblance
of that in what's happening in China as well. When
(35:55):
we come back in a conversation that has just flown by,
I want you to highlight, if you'd be so kind, Hannah,
some of the thoughts that how he draws the distinction
that he's not being disobedient for disobedience sake, nor is
he fighting for rights, but that he absolutely sees his
disobedience as a part of the Gospel Commission. Now that's
deep thinking theologically more with Hannah Nation right after this.
(36:38):
In the book Faithful Disobedience, Hannah Nation writes that Wang
Yi wrote his My Declaration of Faithful Disobedience in September
and October of 2018. Gave it to the leadership of
the early Reign Church and said distribute it if I'm
held for more than 48 hours. That was the longest
he had been held previous to the writing of my
declaration of faithful disobedience. But then, in her own keen,
(36:59):
insightful way, Hannah writes in his declaration, when he makes
a sophisticated argument for disobedience not as a matter of
civil withdrawal or disengagement, but rather as a matter of
the church's allegiance to an alternative kingdom. The kingdom to
which Yang Wang Yi gives allegiance is not a distant reality.
It exists as truly and concretely here and now as
(37:21):
it will in eternity. So a tiny part of his
declaration says this I believe that this communist regime's persecution
against the church is a greatly wicked and unlawful action.
As a pastor of a Christian church, I must denounce
this wickedness openly and severely. The calling that I've received
requires me to use non-violent methods to disobey those human
laws that disobey the Bible and God my Savior. Christ
(37:44):
also requires me to joyfully bear all costs for disobeying
wicked laws. Does Daniel come to mind? But this does
not mean that my personal disobedience and disobedience of the
church is in any way sense of fighting for rights
or political activism in the form of civil disobedience, because
I don't have the intention of changing any institutions or
laws in China. As a pastor, the only thing I
(38:05):
care about is the destruction of man's sinful nature by
this faithful disobedience and the testimony it bears for the
cross of Christ as a pastor. My disobedience is one
part of the Gospel Commission. Christ's Great Commission requires of
us great disobedience. The goal of disobedience is not to
change the world, but to testify about another world. Hannah.
(38:29):
It goes. I mean, it's so powerful. It should be
one of those pieces preserved. Should the Lord tarry in
the annals of church history forever and ever and ever?
But you say that this is a this is nuanced because.
Is he really talking about disobedience of a civil or
a spiritual nature? Now, you've not only put the question
out there, but I'm sure you've done a deep dive
on what you think he's saying. So what's your answer?
S13 (38:55):
Well, I think, uh, I, you know, I revisit this
question a lot myself. So, um, I mean, I think
you've you've really highlighted the most important thing, which is that,
you know, for Wangi, at the end of the day,
(39:15):
what matters is the gospel going forward. And, um, he
really essentially is saying anything that allows the gospel to
go forward, um, is what we need to be committed to. And,
and at times that will require us to disobey. Um,
and I think one of the interesting parts of this essay.
(39:41):
There are so many interesting parts of this essay.
S1 (39:43):
But.
S13 (39:44):
Um, at one point he kind of rhetorically is speaking to,
you know, whatever officer is going to be arresting him
and interrogating him. And, and he basically says, I'm not
doing this to fight for my rights. I'm doing this
for the good of your children. And I think that
really gets, in a nutshell, his commitment to saying, um,
(40:07):
the problem of persecution and the problem of attacking the
church is not that it it causes the church or
individuals within the church to suffer, is that it limits
those who have not yet heard the gospel from hearing
the gospel. And that's the tragedy of persecution is is
the potential impact that it has on those who who
(40:32):
don't believe, who don't know Christ. And so, um, he's
very committed. And not only him, but really so many
of the house church pastors that I know they're very
committed to using their their time before the authorities to
preach the gospel to the authorities that are arresting them.
And I think this essay is a good example of,
(40:54):
you know what? Wang Yi wanted his time before the
authorities to be. We don't know. You know, we don't have,
as I said, no one was in the courtroom, so
we don't know what he was able to say. Um,
but I'm confident that he wanted very deeply to be
able to use that time to preach the gospel to
(41:16):
those in power. Um, I think he has a great.
You said this at the very beginning of the program.
I think he has. He's a great empathy, even for
those who are attacking him. Um, he's deeply concerned for
those who are harming him. And it always makes me
think back to the earliest Christians, um, to Paul and just, uh,
(41:43):
their ability to recognize that, um, the people who are
harmed the most in these situations are not the Christians
being attacked, it's those who are attacking, um, their eternal
souls are at stake. And, um, even in those situations,
the call is to preach the gospel and to preach
(42:03):
the hope of Jesus.
S1 (42:05):
Wow. Let me go back to your brilliant, insightful Pauline
reference because I'm always fascinated. I have a million questions
for the Lord when I get there. I'm so glad
it's going to be an eternity, because I'm going to
use most of it up asking questions. But one of
them is, I'm absolutely fascinated by the verse that there
were believers in Caesar's household. Now, the reason I bring
that up is because my friend Bob Fu says that
(42:25):
he thinks the greatest evangelistic work in China right now
is being done from prison cells. So going exactly to
the point that you just made. So he cares for
those that are persecuting him, that those that are punishing him.
He knows they need Jesus as much as anybody outside
of those prison walls. So you think that if God
has used and I'm this is some eisegesis here, and
(42:48):
I will openly identify that. But if we can assume
that the declaration of the gospel could have started from
a prison cell and worked its way up to the
chambers of Caesar and those who were his counselors, why
could God not use a prison cell in China to
begin to share the gospel with those who are the guards?
Who are the those in authority keeping watch? And it
begins to spread throughout China? We know beyond a shadow
(43:10):
of a doubt, that there are those in authority in
China who have accepted Christ. Obviously, they can't declare it.
You know, when there's 10,000 people in a gathering together
in front of President XI, but it doesn't mean they're
not believers there. So the panel, you must come back
because I've barely scratched the surface, and I want to
get into the meat of so much of what he says.
But you end where I think we should end today,
which is how do we pray? I mean, so often.
(43:34):
And it just I get mad at me as part
of the Western church because my propensity is to say,
giants in the land. I'm just a grasshopper. What can
I do? I mean, the massive communist regime. What can
I do? What can I do as a follower of
Christ for my brothers and sisters in China and Wang
Yi and his other members of the early church, early reign,
church in particular.
S13 (43:56):
I would pray for their perseverance. They are people just
like us. And if we think we would struggle, they
do too. So pray for the perseverance.
S1 (44:05):
That's so spot on. Thank you for that. Oh, do
I commend this to you. It's one of those thoughtful books,
one of those rich books. It is a you've heard
me say it before a banquet. You take it one
course at a time. But just read these essays, stop
and think and ask yourself, oh, God, would you give
me the sufficient grace? Would you call me into persecution
or to suffer for your name's sake? It's called faithful disobedience.
(44:28):
I strongly recommend it. See you next time, friends.
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
it is my hope that you'll hear something that will
challenge you, grow you up in him, and get you
out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening,
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Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air
because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book,
he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the
(00:20):
book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
and all that he has done for us. It's a
magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
because trust me, every single one of us will find
(00:40):
ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage
through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea
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(01:01):
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(01:22):
at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth
tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much. And now
please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:31):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:33):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:35):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:38):
Extremely rare safety move by a 17 years.
S4 (01:41):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated every time.
S6 (01:44):
The Bush tax is not.
S1 (01:59):
Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall
and a very happy Wednesday to you. Hope you're having
a great week. Well, the president of the United States
travels to the Middle East later this week. And I
don't know about you because I think if we're traveling
through life appropriately with the Bible in one hand and
the newspaper in the other, I'm always watching the nation
of Israel, and I'm interested in the neighboring nations as well.
(02:23):
So what sorts of things will they talk about? Trade.
Probably oil. Absolutely. Terrorism. Aha! Without a doubt. And in
the meantime, I wonder what sorts of things the president
and his entourage will hear about the nation of Israel.
There will be a challenge before the president, as there
is always to push back from our support of the
nation of Israel. But I don't know if that's going
(02:46):
to happen or not, because the president just announced yesterday
that the Houthis. Remember, these are in Yemen, backed by Iran.
It's always a proxy engagement with Iran have agreed to
stop attacking global shipping in the Red sea. Hugely important
for global economy. Israel? Not so much. They're not quite
so sure. Here's more from CBN news.
S7 (03:07):
Trump made the stunning announcement during an Oval Office meeting.
S8 (03:10):
The Houthis have announced that they are not, or they've
announced to us at least, that they don't want to
fight anymore. And we will honor that. And we will, uh,
we will stop the bombings. And they have capitulated.
S7 (03:28):
Oman, who helped negotiate the agreement, said the Houthis agreed
to stop attacks on U.S. ships in the Red sea.
The Houthis, however, say they are, quote, evaluating the cease
fire proposal. The announcement appears to leave Israel on its
own to defend itself against the Houthis. The Iranian backed
terror group says it will continue to attack Israel, warning
(03:49):
that going to hit the Jewish state so hard in
coming days that all Israelis should stay in their bomb shelters.
That threat comes after Israeli warplanes devastated the Houthis main
shipping port and its airport in attacks this week. Video
showed airliners blown apart and buildings ablaze at the airport
in Sana'a.
S9 (04:09):
It is also the airport, as I understand it, that
is highly strategic, through which arms are coming, that are
coming from Iran and other places that are used in
these missile attacks on Israel.
S7 (04:21):
The massive strike was retaliation for the Houthis hitting Israel's
Ben Gurion airport with a missile Sunday.
S10 (04:28):
I said that the Houthi attack would be answered not
with a bang and were done, but with bangs.
S7 (04:33):
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned those banks could soon
hit the Houthis main backer as well.
S10 (04:42):
And this also concerns the patron of the Houthis. Iran,
without whose approval and long term support the Houthis cannot
carry out their criminal missile attack on us.
S7 (04:50):
Israel's defence defense minister branded Tehran and its proxies the
Iranian octopus as he threatened the regime.
S11 (04:57):
I know you bear direct responsibility for every attack by
the Houthi octopus arm against the state of Israel, and
you will also bear the full consequences.
S7 (05:09):
Iran claims the Houthis in Yemen are acting on their own.
S12 (05:14):
All accusations against Iran in connection with what Yemenis are
doing are baseless.
S7 (05:20):
Meanwhile, President Trump is reiterating his desire to make a
deal rather than bomb Iran to keep it from developing nukes.
S8 (05:27):
This is really crunch time. I will tell you, for
Iran and for their country, this is a very important
time for Iran. This is the most important time in
the history of Iran for Iran. And I hope they
do what's right, but they can't have a nuclear weapon.
And if they choose to go a different route, it's
going to be a very sad thing. And it's something
(05:48):
we don't want to have to do. But we have
no choice. They're not going to have a nuclear weapon.
They're not going to have a nuclear weapon.
S7 (05:53):
Chris Mitchell CBN news, Jerusalem.
S1 (05:56):
You know the president also said something else at the
same time. He said and we want it to be
a great country. Let it be a tremendously successful rich country.
They have everything you need. The people are incredible. They
have vast amounts of oil and assets. We want it
to be a successful country. We don't want it to
do anything that's going to get in the way of that.
But they can't have a nuclear weapon. And if they
choose to go a different route, it's going to be
(06:17):
a very sad thing. And that's something we don't want
to have to do. But we have no choice. They're
not going to have a nuclear weapon. They're not going
to have a nuclear weapon. Do you understand that? Okay, now,
I'm so glad that Doctor Herman will be joining us
in a few days so that he can offer us again,
key insight. Remember, again, the vast majority of Iranians live
below the poverty line. The animus here is not against
(06:39):
the Iranian people who let the record reflect her overwhelmingly pro-Israel.
It is the ayatollahs. It's the theocratic leaders that are
calling the shots here. Israel is the little Satan. America
is the Great Satan in their Islamic eschatology. Just like
the Chinese want global hegemony. Interesting. Nimrod was just the
forerunner of all of this kind of rebellious thinking. Just
(07:02):
like China wants global hegemony, Iran wants global Islam. And
in order for that to happen, there has to be
an apocalypse of a global nature. And then their Mahdi,
their equivalent of a messiah. Although it's a false messiah,
comes forth. So the idea of destruction and mayhem, they
think somehow is there stepping into their theological mandate to
(07:24):
bring about this Islamic domination. Now that's tough. You're not
just fighting someone who says, I want to grab land.
I want to steal your assets. I want to further
our boundaries for more natural resources and population distribution. This
is about saying we, Islam is going are going to
dominate the world. And so I think it's important. And
(07:45):
I do think that the the octopus is a great idea.
I'm glad the defense minister in Israel refers to it
as the Iranian octopus. What does an octopus have? Multiple
tendril outreaches, right. So Hamas is funded back door from Iran,
Hezbollah in Lebanon funded back door from Iran, the Houthi, Yemen's.
Despite their protestations, they are funded by Iran. And so
(08:07):
what they're doing is they're testing the tensile strength of
Israel and could be, by the way, trying to draw
the United States into a greater global conflict. Now, I
shared with you yesterday that the U.S. has been moving
warships into that part of the world. So they're making
their presence known. It's kind of like the you want
a piece of this line out of a movie, right?
But the bottom line is Iran cannot get a nuclear bomb.
(08:28):
Do you remember? And I'm sure you did, because we
talked about it here, but I think you remember it
as well. Benjamin Netanyahu comes to the United Nations. He's
standing in front of that green marble wall. He holds
up a drawing, looked very simplistic. Some people mocked it.
But simplicity often gets across very complex ideas. He drew
a picture of a bomb. He drew a line about
halfway through up the bomb and he said, this is
how far Iran is. If they get here, they have
(08:49):
total nuclear capability. We must not, he said. At that
point in time in history, let them get to that
point in development of their nuclear weapon. Well, just think
how much more that bomb has filled up since Netanyahu
has given that speech. So this is a prescient danger.
It is a real and present concern. And as the
president travels to the Middle East, you and I ought
to be praying for wisdom, for discernment, for insight, quick
(09:12):
to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, and understand
that it isn't just these countries in isolation. It is
all of the Middle East, all of the ideas that
are being thrown together in a percolating pot. We need
God's help. Back after this. When your plans collapse, make
(09:35):
sure you don't. That's just one of ten powerful principles
in this month's truth Tool. The Mediterranean Sea Rules by
Robert Morgan draws life changing lessons from Paul's shipwreck recorded
in acts. Learn to navigate through the storm with faith
and courage. As for your copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
when you give a gift of any amount to in
the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go
(09:56):
to in the market with Janet Parshall. Have you ever
stopped to consider why we talk about the persecuted church
so much on this broadcast? Well, I'll tell you again,
because I tell you, every time we talk to people
(10:16):
like Bob Fu of Chinaaid or Todd Nettleton or Open
Doors or Doctor Herman Shariat, and the list goes on
and on and on. These faithful servants who come back
after their travels and tell us about the persecuted church
and how we need to pray for our brothers and sisters.
After all, the Bible tells us when one part of
the body hurts, we all hurt, and we're supposed to
(10:36):
pray for those who've been led away in chains, but
I think there's a deeper reason also why we need
to be talking about this. What do our brothers and
sisters in the persecuted church know? What are they experiencing?
What have they learned that we ourselves need to know
and learn and practice here in the West? We have discrimination.
We have bigotry, but we don't have outright persecution yet
(10:59):
in this country. But I believe because we're told in
the Word of God that when not if, those fiery
trials come, we should be gleaning every bit of knowledge
and insight and wisdom we can for our brothers and
sisters who are paying the price for saying, yes, Lord.
And that's exactly what we're going to talk about this hour,
with a focus particularly on the church in China. Now
I'm going to start with the good news. There are
(11:21):
more Bible believing, born again Christians in China than there
are in all of the United States. So let that
sink in. We are talking about a massive group of
believers who, despite the oppression of the communist regime, the
church continues to grow. Now let that sink in. Why?
In a state of oppression, outright hatred, animosity, destruction, imprisonment,
(11:42):
false charges. Does the church continue to grow? If anything,
if we led with our comfort zone, wouldn't we say, oh, no,
cost is too dear. I'm not going to follow Jesus
at all. I'm going to retreat. I will absolutely bow
in submission to Caesar and all that he demands of me.
But yet that's not happening in China. Therefore, there must
be something very important we need to learn from our
(12:02):
brothers and sisters. That's why I've asked Hannah Nation to
join us today. She's the managing editor of the center
for House Church Theology. She's a writer, and she's a
student of missions history in world Christianity. And she's inspired
by this historical movement and the privilege of witnessing a
new chapter of church history that's taking place all across China.
She writes with insight. She writes with deep intellect, and
(12:23):
she writes with passion. She is joining us today because
she has edited an amazing book, the translation of writings
by some of our brothers and sisters, particularly Wang Yi.
And the book is called Faithful Disobedience, subtitled Writings on
Church and State from a Chinese House Church Movement. Hannah,
the Warmest of welcomes. I'm thrilled you're here. And I
(12:44):
have a million questions. And I know I won't get
through all of them, but let me dive in feet
first into the deep end of the pool. First you.
How did you get interested in what was going on
in China?
S13 (12:56):
Well, thank you so much for having me. I first
went to China as a college student. Um, it was
really kind of out of nowhere. I hadn't had previous
connections to China, but a group of my friends from
school went and taught English for a summer. And that
same year, my dad actually is a physics professor, and
(13:20):
he had a Chinese grad student who came to faith.
And those two things coinciding just I don't know, they
just triggered something in me. I became really curious. Um,
I was a history major and I'd heard a lot
about the church's growth in China. And I just thought,
I just really want to go see it. I also
wanted to see the Great Wall. So, um, I signed
(13:44):
up and went to teach English the next summer. That
was back in 2005. And basically have just been hooked
ever since. Um, it's hard to go and not be
really blown away by the number of people there and
how old the culture is, and the Lord has just
kept me in this work since then.
S1 (14:05):
Wow. Do you ever stop and just smile and think
that the Lord has a great sense of humor, that
your last name is nation, and you're interested in church
history on a global level? How John Bunyan esque. I
think it's absolutely perfect, by the way.
S13 (14:19):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's a it's a married name.
I got it when I married my husband. And yeah, I,
we often, uh, chuckle to ourselves, especially when you're sitting
in church and they say something like, now it's time
for us to pray for the nations. And it's always like, oh,
thank you.
S14 (14:38):
I love that. Wow.
S1 (14:40):
Well, I want and I'm so thankful you're here. And
we brother Yang is sitting behind prison bars, so you
are becoming his voice to a national audience here. And
I'm so grateful for that. And I want to back
up a little bit and ask about the the compilation
of the book. First of all, their translations. Now, these
have been readily available in Chinese, but they haven't been
readily available in English. And for some reason they have
(15:02):
made it into the halls of academia. Why the receptivity?
Is it a geopolitical response as opposed to a theological one?
But why has it taken such a long time for
these historic, powerful statements of faith and declaration of belief
and the in the Reformed Church? Uh, fashion? Why have
they taken so long to work to the church writ
(15:23):
large here in America, but in academia in particular?
S13 (15:28):
That's an excellent question. That's one I think about a lot.
I'd say that's a driving motivation in my work is, uh,
basically trying to change that and help bring these writings
out from China. I mean, I think there's probably foundationally
just a very simple answer, which is that, um, not
(15:49):
a lot of people can read Chinese in the Western world.
And so, um, we really rely on translation, and I
spend a lot of time just thinking about how much
in today's global church, um, just the, the gifts of
the linguistic gifts of translators are desperately needed. This is
(16:12):
how it's possible for us to hear from each other.
And I think we really need to put more of
an emphasis on on thinking about that as a spiritual
gift in order to help us hear from each other
and learn from each other. So, I mean, I think
in terms of these writings, these particular writings, um, it,
(16:33):
you know, so I've been working in this particular work,
translating and bringing writings out from China for about seven
years now. Um, maybe a little longer than that. Um,
but basically, um, it takes a lot of time. It
takes a lot of investment and, um, it takes a
lot of work. And so it's just taken us a
(16:54):
while to build the team that's needed to do this.
S1 (16:58):
Well, thank you. On behalf of everybody listening. And for
the church in general, I don't mean to be presumptive
on the church's behalf, but oh, what we need to
hear from our persecuted brothers and sisters, the depth of
their commitment to Christ. They're absolutely strong adherence to the
centrality of Christ and His Word. And this book is
just precious beyond words. So let me take a break
(17:19):
and come back. We're going to learn more about the writings,
The man and the House church movement in Communist China
with Hannah Nation right after this. Hannah Nation is with us.
She's the managing director of the center for House Church Theology,
(17:41):
and she's a writer and a student of missions, history
and world Christianity. And she joins us as the editor
of a book called Faithful Disobedience. These are the writings
of Wang Yi. He's known globally, by the way, but
his writings have predominantly been in Chinese. And we, the
church in particular, need to hear what he has to say.
And he writes on church and state from a Chinese
(18:02):
house movement perspective, which I think takes us to where
we need to go first. Hannah, what I've discovered is
that there are a lot of people in the church,
and this is not a point of condemnation. This is
the joy of doing a program like this, is that
we don't have a lot of working knowledge. We don't
know Three-Self from House church. We don't know what the
underground church means. We don't know what the current state
is with President XI and what his proposals are for
(18:23):
his very Mao esque worldview. So I want to unpack
terms so that people can understand atmospherically what Wang and
others like him have to deal with. So when we
talk about the House church in China, what do we mean?
S13 (18:36):
Really what we mean is churches that refuse to register
with the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, which is essentially China's state church. Um,
it's they continue to call themselves the House church. So, um,
the term that you'll, you'll hear Christians in house churches
(18:57):
use to reference themselves and the churches they're in is
house church. But, um, they don't necessarily mean churches that
are meeting in private homes. Often these churches are much
larger than is feasible to meet in a private home. Um,
they often will meet in settings like hotel conference rooms
(19:20):
or meeting rooms. Um, some churches are able to rent
commercial space or even own property. That was particularly true
up until 2018. Um, really, for the last couple of decades,
there was just this period of relative openness. And so
you saw, um, some pretty large churches in Beijing and
(19:42):
in Chengdu, like early reign, Wang Yi's church. But in 2018, um,
a new set of religious regulations began to be implemented.
And we're really in a new era, um, for Christianity
in China again, really for all religious practice, it's it's
not just Christians, but all religions across China are dealing
(20:06):
with a new set of regulations and essentially pressure from
the government to comply. So, um, we I wouldn't say
that persecution is anywhere, Where, you know, back to where
it was during the Cultural Revolution or, you know, the
middle of the 20th century. But this is certainly a
(20:26):
time of increased persecution once again of the churches in China.
And that really began in 2018.
S1 (20:33):
It's fascinating because there is such an intersection in so
many parts of the world when it comes to Christianity,
with the geopolitics of that area. And it isn't being
political by acknowledging that, it's helping us understand how then
shall we live atmospherically in that particular area? So 18
parallels Xi's desire to really return to very Maoist kind
of ideas. Now he's basically made himself leader for the
(20:54):
rest of his life. He's been unambiguous in his desire
for hegemony. And of course, the core tenet here is
that allegiance to anything but the state is not going
to be functional if you want to continue to spread communism,
if you have allegiance to Christ, it stands in stark
opposition to the government. So that raises a couple of questions.
If you know, particularly post 2018, that there is an
(21:16):
uptick in Tic and aggression against Christians and religious minorities.
Let's not forget the Uyghurs as well. That's another perfect example.
But why would they? I mean, my first question is
a Western Christian is, oh my goodness, you met in
a hotel room and the government knows where you are.
I mean, my goodness, they have surveillance everywhere. They have
the the credit system that's viewed all over the country,
for heaven's sakes. So how in the world then can
(21:37):
you turn around and say, I'm going to meet in
a hotel room? Because in some respects in the West,
we might say, isn't that like flagging a red flag
in front of a raging bull? And yet they do it.
How come?
S13 (21:49):
Well, there are two, two different aspects to the answer
to that. One is that a lot of persecution in
China is still very pocketed. So it follows just as
the topic overall follows geopolitical trends, it also follows trends
within China. Um, essentially places where pressure is highest politically
(22:11):
within the country. That's also where you will see increased
persecution of Christians. Places where, um, you know, prosperity is high. Um,
the everything feels stable to the local authorities. Um, persecution
often is is less there. And so, for example, you know,
pastors I know who are able to meet in um, hotels,
(22:35):
they are in places of relative prosperity and stability places,
pastors I know whose churches are under, you know, very
heavy persecution. They're often in poorer areas. They're often in
places where, um, there's just a lot more uncertainty. And
it's an easy way, um, for governing local provincial authorities
(22:57):
to essentially curry favour with the central government. Um, kind
of similar to a lot of different areas of life.
You know, if you are trying to look powerful, um,
it's easy to do so by, um, pressing down on
those who you know aren't following the laws, whether that is, uh,
(23:19):
you know, actual criminal activity or whether that's something like
the churches. So, um, yeah. So I think that's one question,
one way to answer it. The other way, though, is that,
I mean, I think all these pastors are very committed
to the church being able to be found. They really
believe that the church is the best gift they can
(23:40):
give their cities. And so they want to be wise.
They want to not make foolish decisions, but they are
very committed to doing whatever it takes for their churches
to be available to people. And sometimes that means taking
the risk of meeting a more open places.
S14 (23:57):
Wow.
S1 (23:57):
So just even the passive listener to what you just said.
So there's a depth of commitment. There's an adherence again
to the purpose of the church. And there's a sense
of courage there that if it's good for the city,
if it helps us get the message of the cross out,
then maybe we'll have to be more public in our meeting. Wow.
There's going to be so much to discuss. We're already
(24:18):
at the halfway mark. I'm so glad you're with us
for the rest of the hour, Hannah. The book is
called Faithful Disobedience Writings on Church and State from a
Chinese House church movement back after this. Tired of the endless,
biased spin you hear on mainstream media and in the market,
(24:41):
we're using God's Word as our guide as we examine
today's events, and we want you to be informed and
bold about his truth. This is a listener supported program,
so if you value what you hear and you want
us to continue on your station, become a partial partner
with your monthly support, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758
or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org.
(25:05):
We are visiting with Hannah Nation who is the editor
of the book Faithful Disobedience. Writing on church and state.
From a Chinese House movement, a church movement. She is
the managing editor of the center for House Church Theology,
a writer, and a student of missions, history, and world Christianity.
And I am so very grateful that she is bringing
to our attention the church here in the West, in particular,
(25:28):
what our brothers and sisters have learned and what they need,
and we must hear from them on a regular basis.
So oh, and as I said before, my frustration is
that it's a very, very rich book, and I'm barely
throwing a stone across a quiet pond here. But I
need to get to the person of Wang Yi because
we talked about the house church. You write that they're
theologically engaged, that really when we talk about the house church,
(25:50):
it's everything from evangelicals, Charismatics, reformed, and the Catholic Church
as well. But now we need to find out who Mr.
Wang Yi is. And he's not just a pastor, but
he had training as an attorney. Teach us more about him.
S13 (26:04):
Yeah. He's a very fascinating person. Um, so before he
became a Christian, he was trained as a legal scholar. Um,
and he taught at the university in Chengdu. And, um, basically,
he was a pretty prominent human rights advocate. Um, he
was involved with a lot of the just advocacy and, um,
(26:29):
movements in China. He was a prominent thinker. Um, he
really was, you know, a pretty public intellectual. Um, he wrote, uh,
avidly online, um, very active in blogging, uh, the Chinese
blogging world and publishing in all sorts of different online
(26:49):
journals and very active on Chinese social media. And, um, basically,
he became a Christian and, um, very quickly began pastoring. And, um,
he didn't stop writing or Are thinking, even after he
became a Christian and, um, began wrestling through all the
(27:11):
things that he'd been wrestling through, um, from a Christian perspective. And, um,
just a very avid reader, um, when you read his writings,
I mean, he just he's referencing all sorts of different things.
And one of the things that I love, uh, reading
his work is that, um, you know, on the same page,
(27:32):
he'll reference, um, some aspect of Chinese pop culture, and
then he'll turn around and he'll reference some, you know,
you know, well-known, uh, 17th century political scholar from, um,
Europe and somehow ties it all together. Um, so he's
(27:53):
a very, um, he has a very fruitful mind. Um,
he's been just, you know, his output is massive. What
we have in the book is, frankly just a small
portion of of his work and his writings. But what
we've put in the book is, has, you know, we
determined has is some of his most important writing.
S1 (28:15):
Yes, yes. For sure. Let me point out a couple
of things that you write about in the book that
I think is extremely interesting, clearly. Obviously, he's an empath.
He cares for his fellow man. Uh, I would guess
he's a mercy giver, because in April of 2005, they
start hosting a Bible study in their apartment. He's not
even a believer. But as a result of this, shortly
after he comes to faith, he gets baptized. And then
(28:37):
he starts to serve in a Bible study group. And
that that's called the Early Reign Fellowship, which I'm guessing
was that a forerunner for the church itself?
S13 (28:47):
Mhm. Yeah. Essentially that group grew into, um, the church,
which eventually grew to be quite large, as I mentioned already. Um,
they had um, somewhere around 500, 600 people. Um, attending
or involved in their church, um, before they were shut
(29:07):
down in 2018. So it grew very quickly. And um,
and I mean, even that number, they had planted several churches. Um,
so their impact was quite significant across, uh, Chengdu in
southwest China.
S14 (29:20):
Wow.
S1 (29:21):
And the Lord is sovereign and perfect and knew what
the future held for Wang. But, boy, before he found
himself behind bars, God was using him in a powerful way.
You point out that in 2006, he met with President
George W Bush at the white House. He was representing
China's Christian intellectuals. He was there in 2008 to attend
the conference for Global Christians in Law, and was awarded
(29:44):
the prize for the contribution to promoting religious freedom. So
this is in his DNA. So I'm when you begin
and as you say, this is just a small portion
of the plethora of writings that he has done. But
like you said, he's deep intellectual, so he can go
from pop culture to a 17th century philosopher. And he
moves both ways with fluidity because he's a deep thinker.
(30:06):
He's also an advocate for the gospel. Even though he
was a lawyer by training, he becomes quickly an advocate
for the gospel. And his adherence to the centrality is
it comes through so loud and clear. When you look
at some of the titles of the pieces that he's written.
The City of God on Earth, The Way of the
cross and the life of the martyr. Uh, 20 Ways
to persecution is God's way to shepherd us. I mean,
(30:29):
these were all pre-prison, am I right?
S13 (30:33):
Yep. Yeah. We don't have any of his writings or.
I mean, I don't know. We don't know much about
his time in prison. So, um, if he has been writing,
we don't have anything that that he's been writing.
S1 (30:45):
So you say that he prays for a Bible, a
pen and a paper, and we don't even know if
he can get that. So let's go back to the
day of the arrest. How was he arrested? I read
his letter, by the way, which you included in this
book on the air shortly after he was arrested because
his declaration of faithful disobedience should be tacked on the
wall of every Christian home. And we should read that
(31:06):
after our time in the world, every single day we
sing I surrender all Sunday morning. Do we really know
what it means to live that out? So talk about
the facts behind his arrest. What happened?
S13 (31:16):
Yeah. Um, so he knew, I think, that, uh, he
was heading towards an arrest, um, the summer of 2018.
He had already spent 48 hours in jail. And, um,
when he was released from that, I believe he really
understood that something more significant was coming. So in the
(31:40):
fall of 2018, uh, he that's when he wrote my
declaration of faithful disobedience. He wrote it essentially to prepare
a last statement. Um, should he be arrested? Um, knowing
that he really wouldn't be given an opportunity to publicly
defend himself, um, if he was sentenced, um, within, you know,
(32:02):
the Chinese system. So, um, December 9th of 2018, um,
he was arrested and not only him, but his wife, um,
was arrested with him. Um, they have a teenage son
who began, um, residing with Wang Yi's mother. And, um,
(32:27):
all of the church leadership, uh, of early rain was
also arrested. And then basically, over the ensuing weeks and months, um,
roughly half of early Rain's members, um, faced some kind
of arrest, harassment, um, interference of some kind ranging quite
(32:49):
significantly from, you know, relatively small, um, interactions with the
authorities to much, much larger and more difficult things, such
as um, being essentially deported from Chengdu to other parts
of China, um, being forcefully evicted from homes. Um, there
were groups of mothers who weren't allowed to take their
(33:10):
kids out to play. Um, it was a very intense, um,
altercation essentially between the authorities and not only Wang Yi,
but early reign. And I think that's important to note because, um,
Wang Yi is serving a nine year jail sentence, and
that is very intense. But his whole congregation has really
(33:32):
suffered alongside with him and endured with him in this.
S1 (33:37):
Wow. Now, as I understand it, the wife has since
been released. Is that correct?
S13 (33:42):
Yeah. Um, she's been released. She was released shortly before
or shortly after he was sentenced. So he was arrested
in December of 2018. He wasn't sentenced until December of 2019,
so she was held for about a year. And then
after his sentencing, she was released, which often happens. Um,
(34:02):
they often don't want the the wife or any direct
family members to be present at the trial or the sentencing. Um,
so she was returned home. She has been under house arrest. Um,
it has, um, obviously been a very difficult time for
the family. Um, she has.
S1 (34:24):
Endured.
S13 (34:25):
Quite a lot. Yeah.
S1 (34:26):
And I understand that the son struggled. Um, is he
doing better?
S13 (34:32):
I, I believe so, you know, I don't have any
direct connection to them. So, um, my understanding is, is that, uh,
both his wife and his son are physically. Well, um,
I'm sure there are many things that they, you know,
many hardships that they are enduring. Um, particularly I think
(34:56):
one of probably the, the most difficult things is that
they're very limited in their ability to connect with their
friends and, you know, their former church members. And so
I think they are very isolated in many ways, uh,
relationally and emotionally and spiritually.
S1 (35:15):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. At one point in time, and this
is where it gets confusing for so many people, is
that if you look at basically the Chinese church, uh, the, the,
the Three-Self, uh, there were actually Christians and I let
me just stop in my sentence here, cumbersome though it
may be. I have to tell you how many times
I was reading the book. I kept thinking of the
(35:35):
Confessing Church in Germany. I mean, there really is nothing
new under the sun. So you had Christians who just
went along with Nazism and decided that they would bow
in acquiescence to what the regime was demanding. But then
you had those who were the Confessing Church. And of course,
we think immediately of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. There is a semblance
of that in what's happening in China as well. When
(35:55):
we come back in a conversation that has just flown by,
I want you to highlight, if you'd be so kind, Hannah,
some of the thoughts that how he draws the distinction
that he's not being disobedient for disobedience sake, nor is
he fighting for rights, but that he absolutely sees his
disobedience as a part of the Gospel Commission. Now that's
deep thinking theologically more with Hannah Nation right after this.
(36:38):
In the book Faithful Disobedience, Hannah Nation writes that Wang
Yi wrote his My Declaration of Faithful Disobedience in September
and October of 2018. Gave it to the leadership of
the early Reign Church and said distribute it if I'm
held for more than 48 hours. That was the longest
he had been held previous to the writing of my
declaration of faithful disobedience. But then, in her own keen,
(36:59):
insightful way, Hannah writes in his declaration, when he makes
a sophisticated argument for disobedience not as a matter of
civil withdrawal or disengagement, but rather as a matter of
the church's allegiance to an alternative kingdom. The kingdom to
which Yang Wang Yi gives allegiance is not a distant reality.
It exists as truly and concretely here and now as
(37:21):
it will in eternity. So a tiny part of his
declaration says this I believe that this communist regime's persecution
against the church is a greatly wicked and unlawful action.
As a pastor of a Christian church, I must denounce
this wickedness openly and severely. The calling that I've received
requires me to use non-violent methods to disobey those human
laws that disobey the Bible and God my Savior. Christ
(37:44):
also requires me to joyfully bear all costs for disobeying
wicked laws. Does Daniel come to mind? But this does
not mean that my personal disobedience and disobedience of the
church is in any way sense of fighting for rights
or political activism in the form of civil disobedience, because
I don't have the intention of changing any institutions or
laws in China. As a pastor, the only thing I
(38:05):
care about is the destruction of man's sinful nature by
this faithful disobedience and the testimony it bears for the
cross of Christ as a pastor. My disobedience is one
part of the Gospel Commission. Christ's Great Commission requires of
us great disobedience. The goal of disobedience is not to
change the world, but to testify about another world. Hannah.
(38:29):
It goes. I mean, it's so powerful. It should be
one of those pieces preserved. Should the Lord tarry in
the annals of church history forever and ever and ever?
But you say that this is a this is nuanced because.
Is he really talking about disobedience of a civil or
a spiritual nature? Now, you've not only put the question
out there, but I'm sure you've done a deep dive
on what you think he's saying. So what's your answer?
S13 (38:55):
Well, I think, uh, I, you know, I revisit this
question a lot myself. So, um, I mean, I think
you've you've really highlighted the most important thing, which is that,
you know, for Wangi, at the end of the day,
(39:15):
what matters is the gospel going forward. And, um, he
really essentially is saying anything that allows the gospel to
go forward, um, is what we need to be committed to. And,
and at times that will require us to disobey. Um,
and I think one of the interesting parts of this essay.
(39:41):
There are so many interesting parts of this essay.
S1 (39:43):
But.
S13 (39:44):
Um, at one point he kind of rhetorically is speaking to,
you know, whatever officer is going to be arresting him
and interrogating him. And, and he basically says, I'm not
doing this to fight for my rights. I'm doing this
for the good of your children. And I think that
really gets, in a nutshell, his commitment to saying, um,
(40:07):
the problem of persecution and the problem of attacking the
church is not that it it causes the church or
individuals within the church to suffer, is that it limits
those who have not yet heard the gospel from hearing
the gospel. And that's the tragedy of persecution is is
the potential impact that it has on those who who
(40:32):
don't believe, who don't know Christ. And so, um, he's
very committed. And not only him, but really so many
of the house church pastors that I know they're very
committed to using their their time before the authorities to
preach the gospel to the authorities that are arresting them.
And I think this essay is a good example of,
(40:54):
you know what? Wang Yi wanted his time before the
authorities to be. We don't know. You know, we don't have,
as I said, no one was in the courtroom, so
we don't know what he was able to say. Um,
but I'm confident that he wanted very deeply to be
able to use that time to preach the gospel to
(41:16):
those in power. Um, I think he has a great.
You said this at the very beginning of the program.
I think he has. He's a great empathy, even for
those who are attacking him. Um, he's deeply concerned for
those who are harming him. And it always makes me
think back to the earliest Christians, um, to Paul and just, uh,
(41:43):
their ability to recognize that, um, the people who are
harmed the most in these situations are not the Christians
being attacked, it's those who are attacking, um, their eternal
souls are at stake. And, um, even in those situations,
the call is to preach the gospel and to preach
(42:03):
the hope of Jesus.
S1 (42:05):
Wow. Let me go back to your brilliant, insightful Pauline
reference because I'm always fascinated. I have a million questions
for the Lord when I get there. I'm so glad
it's going to be an eternity, because I'm going to
use most of it up asking questions. But one of
them is, I'm absolutely fascinated by the verse that there
were believers in Caesar's household. Now, the reason I bring
that up is because my friend Bob Fu says that
(42:25):
he thinks the greatest evangelistic work in China right now
is being done from prison cells. So going exactly to
the point that you just made. So he cares for
those that are persecuting him, that those that are punishing him.
He knows they need Jesus as much as anybody outside
of those prison walls. So you think that if God
has used and I'm this is some eisegesis here, and
(42:48):
I will openly identify that. But if we can assume
that the declaration of the gospel could have started from
a prison cell and worked its way up to the
chambers of Caesar and those who were his counselors, why
could God not use a prison cell in China to
begin to share the gospel with those who are the guards?
Who are the those in authority keeping watch? And it
begins to spread throughout China? We know beyond a shadow
(43:10):
of a doubt, that there are those in authority in
China who have accepted Christ. Obviously, they can't declare it.
You know, when there's 10,000 people in a gathering together
in front of President XI, but it doesn't mean they're
not believers there. So the panel, you must come back
because I've barely scratched the surface, and I want to
get into the meat of so much of what he says.
But you end where I think we should end today,
which is how do we pray? I mean, so often.
(43:34):
And it just I get mad at me as part
of the Western church because my propensity is to say,
giants in the land. I'm just a grasshopper. What can
I do? I mean, the massive communist regime. What can
I do? What can I do as a follower of
Christ for my brothers and sisters in China and Wang
Yi and his other members of the early church, early reign,
church in particular.
S13 (43:56):
I would pray for their perseverance. They are people just
like us. And if we think we would struggle, they
do too. So pray for the perseverance.
S1 (44:05):
That's so spot on. Thank you for that. Oh, do
I commend this to you. It's one of those thoughtful books,
one of those rich books. It is a you've heard
me say it before a banquet. You take it one
course at a time. But just read these essays, stop
and think and ask yourself, oh, God, would you give
me the sufficient grace? Would you call me into persecution
or to suffer for your name's sake? It's called faithful disobedience.
(44:28):
I strongly recommend it. See you next time, friends.
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