April 24, 2025 • 44 mins
Dr. Ahmed Joktan is a medical doctor who turned evangelist. His father is a mufti in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Once set to bring jihad to the world, he came to know Jesus Christ as Savior and wants to bring true peace in Jesus to Muslims and lost people everywhere. Five times he faced death, but God spared him so that he could tell Muslims and lost people worldwide about how Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Matthew Black is a pastor who played a key role in the life of this Saudi physician. Fascinating conversation coming your way on today’s broadcast.
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S1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
written by pastor Jack Graham. I love it because he
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and that a lot of people think that the Bible
is too complicated, that it's written for pastors or for scholars.
And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
And that book was written for every single one of us.
We just need a better way to know how to
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(00:42):
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(01:30):
so much for choosing to spend the next hour with us.
Today's program is pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open.
But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy
the broadcast.
S2 (01:39):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:41):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:43):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:45):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S5 (01:49):
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S3 (01:51):
Idea is not.
S1 (02:07):
Hello, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
I thank you so much for spending the hour with me. Listen,
do you take the Word of God seriously? I hope
you do. So when you read in his precious, inerrant, transcendent, immutable,
absolutely filled with truth from the first verse of Genesis
to the last word in Revelation. When you look at
that book and it says that he is not willing
(02:28):
that any should perish, what do you think he means
by that? Or when we read that God so loved
the world, the cosmos, that he gave his only son,
that whoever believes in him will not perish but have
everlasting life, that means it is the whole truth of
the whole gospel to the whole world. And I am
so happy we have an eternity, because it's going to
take that long to hear all of the stories of
(02:50):
how people came to faith in Christ. So pardon me
if I sound a little bit excited, but I'll tell
you what, these are the stories that since I was
a little girl. Make my heart race so fast. I
think it's going to come out of my chest. I
love hearing stories of how people came to Jesus. It's
so humbling to see how he pursues us. We think
we have found God. It's the other way around. He
(03:12):
pursues us. And how thankful I am personally for that
profound truth. And I love to hear how creative, how inventive,
how unbelievably awe inspiring are the stories of how Jesus
pursues people and draws them to himself, even in the
most bizarre of places. I mean, imagine, I don't know,
(03:34):
let me just pick a country, Saudi Arabia. Now, we
know that this is the heart of Wahhabism, which is
a particularly virulent form of Islam. We know there's no
such thing as religious liberty in that country. You can't
bring a Bible in. We know that people are beheaded
for crimes. We know that people have their hands cut
off for crimes. We know that there are vice police.
It is a very, very difficult country, but it is very,
(03:56):
very strategically important to the United States. So we have
this geopolitical tension with the nation of Saudi Arabia. But
there's also an opportunity there for the gospel. Not easy.
But then again, in that book I just referenced, where
does it say it was going to be always easy
to share the are you reading a version? I'm not
to send it to me. I'd like to see that part.
I all I know is that we're told to go
(04:17):
and tell, and the results we leave in the Lord's hands.
So I want you to know, I just love this
medium of radio, because it really sometimes puts me in
touch with people I wouldn't meet until we're going to
be spending eternity together. So that's the case with Pastor
Matthew Black, this dear man who's a senior pastor of
living Hope Bible Church in Roselle, Illinois, gets on the email,
sends it to me and says, you're going to want
(04:38):
to know about my friend. I wouldn't know about his friend,
who I will introduce in just a moment, because both
of these dear gentlemen are with me this hour. But
if Pastor Matt had not emailed me, I would know
about this story. And therefore you probably would know about
this story, but you're going to hear it. Let me
tell you a little bit about Pastor Matt. First. He is,
as I said before, senior pastor. But he's also studied
theology in Spanish for his undergrad. He's currently pursuing graduate
(05:01):
studies at Faith Bible Seminary in Lafayette, Indiana. He's certified
with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. He has been
a foreign missionary in the Madrid and Basque regions of Spain.
How cool is that? Hence, the Spanish comes in real
handy assisting in the establishment of a church in Christian
camp and enjoys living Hope's Spanish ministry. He enjoys supporting
(05:22):
the Dundee Scottish Pipe Band. He had me at the
pipe band Believe Me, and serving on the board of
Bible Visuals International and participating in the Chicagoland Gospel Network.
So let me welcome you first, Pastor Matt. And when
you say Dundee, are you talking Scotland or Illinois?
S6 (05:37):
Oh, I'm talking about Scotland, but it also happens to
be in Illinois.
S1 (05:41):
Exactly.
S6 (05:43):
It's great. That's terrific.
S1 (05:45):
You as well. And thank you, thank you, thank you
for the gentleman that I am about to introduce. Now,
Doctor Ahmed Jackson is with us. He is a physician
and I don't want to say anything else other than
he has written an absolutely stirring book called From Mecca
to Christ. And here's the subtitle. First hint of his
story a True story from the son of the Meccan,
(06:05):
Mufti Ahmed. I thank you from the bottom of my
heart for being here. So I just have to start
from the beginning. Tell me what it's like to grow
up in Saudi Arabia. Tell me about your family and
in particular, tell me about your father, please.
S7 (06:18):
Thank you, Janet, for having me. It's an honor to
be with you today. Um, so I'm from, um, Mecca,
Saudi Arabia, and growing there. It's different than being here
in the United States of America. Um, imagine, um, you know,
going to Chicago where, um, and Chicago all of a
sudden become without any church, and there is religious beliefs
(06:38):
all around. Um, so, you know, growing in Saudi Arabia
is like, um, it's I don't think any American can
imagine how different it is unless you go there. Um,
my my father is an Islamic mufti in Mecca, and
Mecca is the holiest site for all Muslims. Growing up,
(06:59):
I go. I went to the mosque five times a day.
And one of those times is in the early morning.
Imagine in, um, freezing cold in Chicago, you wake up
and you have to wash certain parts of the body,
and then you have to go to the mosque. Um,
so my father also is a judge, uh, Sharia law judge. So, um,
(07:21):
it's based on, on, um, the Sharia law of Islam. Um,
that is based on the Koran itself. So, yeah.
S1 (07:29):
Very devout. And you went and worshipped with your father.
Help our friends understand you're talking to people all across
the country. When someone is a mufti, what kinds of
responsibilities does that bear? What was he required to do
as a mufti?
S7 (07:44):
So, um, if you read the Bible, you understand the
role of the Pharisees. And basically he would, um, Elaborate
if something is lawful or unlawful. So people would come
to him and ask him, can we do this? Are
we allowed to do this by the Sharia law? And
he would tell them, yes, you can do this based
on one, two, three from the Koran or the Sunnah
(08:08):
or not. You cannot do that. So basically that's his
role as a mufti.
S1 (08:13):
Wow. Now this was important obviously that you be devout
as well. How important was the Quran when you were
a boy growing up?
S7 (08:21):
Yes. So, um, we, uh, we were, um, forced and
encouraged to go to the mosque, um, and memorize the Koran.
And I have memorized the entire Koran without a single mistake.
Not out of love, but out of fear. And this
is what I have to say.
S1 (08:42):
Wow. Let me pick it up at that point. Now,
I want you to remember that Pastor Matthew Black is
with us as well. And I'm going to fold him
into the story when it's the appropriate time. But again,
this is an amazing story of a man raised by
a Mecca mufti in Saudi Arabia. I mean, this is
sort of ground zero, if you will, of Islam on
planet Earth. And yet the name of the book that
(09:04):
he's authored is From Mecca to Christ. So, you know,
there's a story there. Oh, and is there ever we're
going to continue right after this. Bible literacy is declining
even among Christians. It's time for us to cultivate Bible
(09:25):
reading habits that will transform our faith. That's why I've
chosen the Jesus Book as this month's truth tool. Discover
how to apply Scripture to our everyday lives and to
know its power. As for your copy of the Jesus Book,
when you give a gift of any amount to in
the market, call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go
online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Fascinating conversation
(09:51):
with Pastor Matthew Black, who's the senior pastor of living
Hope Bible Church in Roselle, Illinois, and Doctor Ahmed Jordan,
who's a medical doctor turned evangelist and also author of
the book From Mecca to Christ. So, Ahmed, if I may,
I want to go back to you said something very
intriguing just before the break. You said you memorized the
Quran without a mistake. You didn't do it out of love.
(10:13):
You did it out of fear. Why was there fear
in this?
S7 (10:18):
Well, um, if you make a mistake in any verse
in the Quran, it's shameful. And to some Muslims, it's
as sinful as well. Um, and there is a punishment
if you do a mistake, for example. Um, I did
like about 20 of those mistakes. And, um, um, if I, um,
did a mistake in a verse in the Quran, my
(10:39):
teacher would place me in front of the whole mosque.
And it's a big mosque, and I'll be placed on
the ground and my feet will be up, and they will,
you know, strike my feet. Um, and it's really, really, uh, hurtful.
It's painful to the degree that I at that moment,
I wouldn't be able to walk after that, and nobody
(10:59):
would help me because I have done something shameful. I
came from a culture of shame and honor. And to them,
if you do something shameful, you're basically done and nobody
will help you. And there is no mercy on that.
S1 (11:11):
There's so much that you have to teach us. Ahmed,
let me ask you, as a young boy growing up again,
your father having a very prestigious position, and that was
being a mufti in Mecca, the holiest of all places
for Muslims. And yet, as you're memorizing the Quran, you
can't make a mistake, you can't embarrass your family, you
can't make a mistake or be embarrassed in front of
the leaders. You also, right? With the Quran now memorized,
(11:33):
it was time to learn how to wage holy war
for Allah. Jihad is the highest honor for any Muslim.
Let me stop. This is right out of your book,
from Mecca to Christ. You know, very often you will
hear people say, well, jihad means the personal internal struggles
that go on? Uh, Christians would misinterpret that to say, oh,
you mean like the the internal struggles that the apostle
(11:54):
Paul talked about, right? But is that really what jihad means,
or was it really training for physical war?
S7 (12:02):
Well, in the sense of Sunni Islam, it is, um,
a physical jihad of killing others. And it's it's coming
from chapter nine, chapter number nine of the Quran, verse 111,
which is the only guaranteed way to go to heaven
is by the blood of someone. And we know as
(12:23):
believers in Christ that we are going to heaven by
the blood of Jesus. And it's really sad that nobody
is going to to Muslims and telling them that you
don't need to kill anyone else. Jesus already died for you,
and that is the perfect sacrifice that you could ever
present to God to pardon you from your sins. So yes,
(12:45):
it's out of that chapter of the Quran and it's
physical jihad, Yes.
S1 (12:49):
It is physical. Wow. So you. This is chilling, Ahmed.
You talk about the fact that you literally went to
a camp. There were people from all over the world.
You were instructed through videos how to slaughter, quote infidels,
through military training, through bomb making and hand-to-hand combat. Did
you think that someday you were actually going to be called,
for the sake of Allah, to have to take another
person's life?
S7 (13:10):
Um, sure. You know, coming from a tribe with that
kind of heritage and history, I was thinking that is
my way. And I was thinking, I will end up
like those whom I saw on on those videos. But
of course, I'm here now with you. And it's. It's
God's way, not my way.
S1 (13:29):
Yeah, absolutely. 100%. But it helps so that we can understand.
So we can have a softer heart, so we can
begin to understand how we can share the gospel with
our Muslim friends. Did you truly think before you had
an encounter with Christ, that your only way of making
it to Paradise would somehow be absolute allegiance to the
Quran and if necessary, take the life of an infidel,
(13:51):
and that you would, in essence, if I can put
it in these words, buying your way into Paradise.
S7 (13:58):
Yes, according to the Quran. Yes. And, um, you know, um,
the Islam that I grew up in, the Sunni Islam,
the Wahhabism in particular. Yes. You have to do that, um,
in order to have a guaranteed way to go to
to heaven. And that's why the nine over 11 happened,
and I'm sad to say that, but it's based on
that verse in the Koran.
S1 (14:19):
Yes. But it helps us understand. I mean, unless your
heart changes, your worldview doesn't change. So it makes perfect sense.
But the story doesn't end there. As you say. You're
joining me from California. We're actually speaking at a conference.
And the book is that you wrote is called From
Mecca to Christ. So here you are literally being trained
in a jihadi camp, literally thinking that the time may
(14:40):
come when you'd be called upon to take another person's life,
and in so doing, you would have been an absolute
obedience to what the Quran taught. But that was not
God's plan for your life, and he shows up in
a very miraculous way. Talk to me about this.
S7 (14:55):
Yes. So growing up, they did not teach us English
because English is the language of infidel and infidelity. And
I graduated from high school and I wanted to join
College of Medicine. Medicine is taught in English worldwide. And,
you know, going there in the first class and seeing
this different language that I've never seen before in my life, um,
(15:16):
you know, um, failure came on the board. It's like, hey,
you're going to fail. You have to look for another way.
So I went and I used Google Translator. I copied
all those pages translated to Arabic, but that was time consuming.
So I went to New Zealand to study English. And
after two and a half months, I saw a dream
(15:38):
that basically turned my life upside down.
S1 (15:43):
I love it. So you had a dream. And what
happens in the dream?
S7 (15:49):
Yes. So, um, two weeks prior to that dream, um,
a man who loved Muslims, he prayed that the Lord
will send him someone from Saudi Arabia. Ambassador Bryan, um,
from the Auckland Baptist Tabernacle. He he said, Lord, you
have sent us Muslims from Iran, from Iraq, from other nations,
but no one from Saudi Arabia. Lord, would you send
(16:10):
us someone from Saudi Arabia? And he prayed with his church.
Two weeks after that prayer, um, while I was sleeping
on my bed, the balcony opened up and a light,
a light came to the room. It's like you're walking
in a dark street with no light and a light.
All of a sudden, you know, shine on you. And
(16:31):
in the dream the Lord said, come to me. I
began to tremble with terror at the glorious, majestic person.
And I said, where do you want me to come
to you? The Lord said, go to the house of
the White Pillars. There you shall find the truth.
S1 (16:48):
But let me stop right there, and I'm going to
pick up the dream at this point. Wow. What did
I tell you about the Lord pursuing us? We're visiting
with Doctor Ahmed Jackson and Pastor Matthew Black. This is
a powerful story, but it reveals exactly how big our
God is. Do you know him today? I hope the
story is stirring you to do some seeking on your
(17:10):
own journey back after this. This is in the market
with Janet Parshall. What a joy to spend time with.
(17:30):
Pastor Matthew Black, senior pastor of living Hope Bible Church
in Roselle, Illinois, and Doctor Ahmed Jackson, who's a medical
doctor who's now turned evangelist. And I'm going to go
back to the dream in a minute. But, Pastor Matt,
I just have to ask you, I'm a little old
Bible church girl myself, and growing up, we didn't we
didn't do a lot of talking about Jesus showing up
in dreams. And to this day, I know that there
(17:51):
are people listening going, no, no, no, no, no, that
doesn't happen. Talk to me. As a pastor, when you
heard this story, what went through your mind?
S6 (17:59):
Well, I had the same reaction. No, that doesn't happen.
But apparently it does. And God is reaching Muslims all
around the world in this unique way.
S1 (18:09):
Yeah. And we hear it again and again and again.
But does it not go to what I said earlier,
which is if the declaration in his word is that
he's not willing that any should perish, then why would
he not use all means at his disposal, including dreams? So, Ahmed,
let me go back to you. So you're having this dream.
I love the fact that this dear man in New
Zealand said, Lord, send me a muslim from Saudi Arabia.
(18:32):
You come. The Lord shows up to you in a dream.
The Lord says to you, go to the house of
white pillars, and there you shall find the truth. What
was the house with white pillars? Please pick up your
story from there.
S7 (18:44):
Yes. So at that time I did not know the
exact name of the building. All I saw is a
building with white pillars. So, um, the Lord took me
in a way that is mentioned in the book, but
at the end I went there. And that building is
the Auckland Baptist Tabernacle. And, um, it's a church plant
from London. Um, have you ever heard about the famous preacher, um,
(19:07):
Charles Spurgeon? Yes, indeed. Um. His son? Yeah. His son
went there to plant that church. So it is that church,
and it's an old building. Um, it looked like a
room in, uh, kind of, uh, structure. Um, and to me,
at that time, it looked like a museum.
S1 (19:24):
So you go. It's this famous, uh, church in New
Zealand founded by the son of Charles Spurgeon. And what
happens when you get to the church?
S7 (19:32):
Yes. So I entered inside, um, and, you know, Brian, um, he,
with a smile, uh, greeted me in Arabic and, um,
he told me to sit down and he asked me
to tell him about the dream, which was shocking for me.
How would he know? And then I. After I finished,
you know, he, uh. He told me that I have
(19:52):
seen Isa in my dream. Um, you know, and then, um, he, um,
talked to me more about Isa from the Koran, and, uh,
it shocked me how this man knew about the verses
of Jesus in the Koran. Um, as you know that
there are many verses in the Koran that speaking about
(20:12):
Jesus that is borrowed from the the New Testament.
S8 (20:17):
Mhm.
S1 (20:18):
And Isa, of course, is the reference to Jesus in
the Quran. So he walks you through. He praised God.
This man understood the Quran, knew the Quran knew immediately
how to connect, was able to show you what the
Quran said versus what the Bible said. He talks to you.
And then why and how did you decide to make
the decision to give your life to Jesus?
S7 (20:40):
Um, I would say because of the love of this
man who, um, continued and endured all of my questions,
and he answered them first in a manner that, um,
that I could understand. Um, he did not, um, bring
the cross to me, but he brought me. He lifted
me up to the cross, basically. Um, so he talked
(21:01):
to me from the Quran and about, um, who is
the word of God in the Koran and the word
of God. You'll be surprised. But the word of God
in the Quran is Jesus. You know, truth is truth
and light is light. It doesn't matter where it's light. Um,
and the glorious light of the gospel is also there,
(21:21):
although it's faint, but it's there.
S1 (21:23):
Wow. Wow. So all of us, those of us who
can remember the specific day we made this decision to
believe Jesus, to ask him to come into our life,
to take away our sins. When you made that decision,
this is absolutely against everything you knew as a child
growing up. It's against everything you were taught in the Quran.
(21:43):
You went through the ritual of five times a day going, uh,
and showing up at the mosque, bathing, praying, memorizing the Quran,
going to jihadi camp. I mean, Jesus could not be
more different than everything that was in your DNA. Did
you stop and say, wait a minute. This just might
cost me if I make this decision?
S7 (22:06):
Well, at that time, with a dream and with the
love of, uh, Brian that he showed me the love
of God through Jesus. Um, at that moment, I did
not see the future. What will happen when I accept
Jesus as my my Lord and Savior? Um, but after that,
I saw the cost, you know? But God was with
(22:27):
me even through those, um, times of trials.
S1 (22:30):
Wow. So you come to New Zealand to study English?
Do you? Then and again, you're going to be a
medical doctor. English is the language that's universal in medical training.
Are you going to go back then to Saudi Arabia
from New Zealand?
S7 (22:45):
Well, when that dream happened, I was trembling with fear
and I called the travel agency and I said, please
send me back to Saudi Arabia as soon as possible.
And the travel agency told me that, you know, the
next available seat is a week from that time. So
I feel like trapped in that country and for a reason.
So the Lord was prepared me to meet Brian and
(23:08):
to hear the Word of God. Brian took me to
John one. In the beginning was the word, and the
word was with God, and the word is God. So
he took me from there. And, um, he explained to
me that, um, your word is with you and it's
one with you. So Jesus Isa is one with God. And, um,
(23:29):
when he came to New Zealand, you paid with New
Zealand dollars. You couldn't pay with your Saudi riyals. When
you stand before God, you have to pay with a payment.
That is according to the standards of God, and Jesus
is the only one that can satisfy that payment.
S1 (23:48):
Exactly. Wow. And again, look how God moves. So if
you had gotten a seat earlier, perhaps you wouldn't have
had the dream. You wouldn't have ended up at the
house with the white pillars. You wouldn't have met Brian.
Brian wouldn't have taken you to the Word of God,
and things would be so dramatically different. But eventually you
do get back in an airplane and you do go
back to Saudi Arabia. Now remember that song that you
(24:08):
sung in church? I've decided to follow Jesus. No turning back,
no turning back. What price do you think Doctor Jordan
had to pay? You'll find out right after this. Friends,
this is Janet Parshall, and I want to take a
moment to remind you that today's program is prerecorded so
(24:30):
our phone lines aren't open. But I sure do appreciate
your spending the hour with us. And thanks so much
and enjoy the rest of the program.
S3 (24:36):
Ma'am.
S1 (24:42):
When we tackle tough issues on in the market, do
you find yourself nodding in agreement? Then why not take
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today by calling eight 7758 or go online to in
(25:03):
the market with Janet Parshall. What an amazing conversation with
Pastor Matthew Black, senior pastor of living Hope Bible Church
in Roselle, Illinois, and Doctor Ahmed Jackson, who's a medical
doctor turned evangelist. He has written the book From Mecca
to Christ A True Story from the son of the
Meccan Mufti. Absolutely fascinating. So, Ahmed, you come to faith
(25:27):
in Christ in New Zealand. You then get on a plane,
you go back to Saudi Arabia. And I said just
before the break that sometimes we fail to realize that
Jesus paid it all for us. And if we choose
to follow Jesus, we're going to have some challenging times.
And you certainly did as well. You go back to
Saudi Arabia and you write in your book that you
(25:48):
faced death, death not once, but five times. Tell our
friends what happened.
S7 (25:55):
Yes. And I want to say that, um, in second
Timothy three, verse 12, indeed, all who desire to live
a godly life following after Christ Jesus Christ Jesus will
be persecuted. So, um, yes, five times I faced death.
And the first one is when Brian, um, he, um,
basically sent me off on the airport and he gave
(26:16):
me a gift, and he said, this will guide you.
He knew that there is no one in Saudi Arabia
who can guide me in faith. So, um, and that
gift was the New Testament in Arabic. And when my
father found out that I have a New Testament in Mecca,
Saudi Arabia, um, he he did not take that lightly
(26:36):
and to the point that he put AK 47 to
my head. Um, and, um, you know, but the Lord, um,
rescued me from that moment.
S1 (26:45):
So he puts an AK 47 to your head, and
then you don't die. Then you get arrested by the
religious police. Why?
S7 (26:53):
You know, the light of the glorious gospel was shining
in my heart, and I couldn't contain that. I am
the fragile clay jar. And I have this treasure that
I want to share with everyone. So I share the
gospel with a fellow Saudi person. And at the beginning
he was agreeing with me. But when I prayed in
(27:14):
the name of Jesus, um, you know, he called the
religious police and they came in and they, they start
to beat the heck out of me without a mercy.
In the U.S., we don't have religious beliefs. We have
the police, police. But in Saudi Arabia, we have the
state police and we have the religious police. And they
knock 13, 13 teeth off my from my mouth.
S1 (27:34):
Oh, Oh my word. Because you're not allowed to evangelize
at all in Saudi Arabia. And so you now were
paying the price another time. The Saudi government goes after
you with a tanker. Tell me about this.
S7 (27:48):
So I used to go to a church that is 13.
Hear me out. 13 hours each way in the next
door country. Like you're going to worship in Canada and
come back to Chicago. And, um, after a year of
of being there, I was I was discovered and I
was put in, in, um, in, in jail for a night.
(28:09):
And they released me on terms that I would never
go to that meeting. Um, but the book of Hebrews
is telling me that I should not forsake that simply
if the of the if the part of the church.
So I drove back and probably I was a troublemaker.
So they wanted to make that look like an accident.
And they want they wanted me to basically melt. Um,
(28:31):
and that was the acid tanker. But God snatched me
from the jaws of death.
S1 (28:36):
And that's time number three. Then there are two more
occasions where you're literally fired on with rifles. Tell me
about that.
S7 (28:45):
So that light is still shining in my heart and
I couldn't contain it. So I continued to share the
gospel in Saudi Arabia and other countries. And, uh, because
I became a troublemaker. Now, um, they started to realize
that they should have they should get rid of me,
but they did not realize that I'm under the best
witness protection program. God's witness protection program. Eye witness for Jesus.
(29:11):
And he protects me all the time. So they started
to shoot at me, and I didn't want to leave
Saudi Arabia. I wanted to share the gospel because I
know that not many people want to go there. The
last person who went crazy in Saudi Arabia and shared
everywhere was Paul in Galatians one, verse 17 and 18. Mhm.
But it was it was time for me to leave.
(29:31):
And the Lord made a way for me.
S1 (29:33):
Well. And got out of Saudi Arabia. Have you been
back since?
S7 (29:38):
No. Unfortunately, no.
S1 (29:39):
Oh, that has to be hard for you. Have you
lost contact with your father?
S7 (29:45):
Um. Since that day when he bought AK 47 to
my head. Um, he basically disowned me because I was
ashamed on him and on my on my tribe. And
since then, um, since I came from a culture of
shame and honor, he wouldn't even recognize me anymore.
S9 (30:01):
Oh. Oh, Ahmed.
S1 (30:03):
It's so important for us to hear this because, um,
we need to count the cost. Did you ever think,
you know, it would have been a whole lot easier
if I never had that dream? You know, if I.
If I just hadn't gone to the house with the
white pillars, I wouldn't have faced death five times. I
wouldn't have been put out in my culture, in my country,
from my father. Did you ever think it's not worth it?
S7 (30:23):
Well, um, after I've seen all that, I'm like, thank you, God,
for making me go through all that. Because if I
didn't go through those persecution and trials, I would have
known that you exist. I would have would have not
known that Jesus loves me. And I would have never
(30:43):
known that God is in control. And those verses in
the gospel are still alive and applicable today.
S1 (30:51):
Pastor Matt, let me go to you at this point,
and by the grace of God, Ahmed is in the
United States of America. He's teaching pastors. He's written his book.
He has this now fabulous ministry that we're so grateful for.
And by the way, you can learn more by going
to my website and you can learn about Mecca to Christ.
This is a fabulous ministry. How does your life intersects
(31:12):
with Ahmed's? How in the world is this dear physician
turned evangelist just not an author of a book, but
someone whose life intersected with yours?
S6 (31:21):
So after he he got hit at night by that
acid tanker, they had put it, um, with its lights
out in the street, in the highway where he was
crossing from that 13. Hour journey to church. After that,
he was all scarred up and he had come to.
The United States just to encourage pastors and churches to
(31:45):
reach Muslims for Jesus Christ and his pastor in in
another Gulf state country, um recommended that he come to
our little church. He had heard about it. And, uh,
so what a long distance recommendation. I was kind of shocked.
And I met him in June of 2016, and I
(32:08):
was actually afraid of him when I first met him
because I didn't trust him. He. I came to find
out that he's a modern day Arabian, Saul of Tarsus.
And just like they did not receive Paul immediately. So
it is so it was with Doctor Ahmed and and yet, um,
(32:28):
he joined us. I heard his testimony. I was so moved,
just like we've heard today. And he joined us for
an evening service and he shared his amazing testimony. It
melted the hearts of our our little congregation. And then
he left to go back to Saudi. And I begged
him not to go back. I knew his life would
(32:49):
be in danger. We were on the phone probably every
other day. It's amazing. Through, um, through various WhatsApp and
FaceTime and all of that. You can actually talk very
well through these to other countries. But I said, you're
probably going to die. So we need to start writing
down your story. And with tears of sorrow and joy, uh,
(33:12):
each day I went with him through his journey from
Mecca to Christ. And I asked so much about his
story and what Islam is like, and I wrote down
everything that he dictated to me. And that's that's the
book that that he just published.
S1 (33:29):
Wow. Wow. What an amazing story. It takes my breath away. Amen.
Let me ask you, in the West, we have. And
thank you, Pastor Matt, for being so honest about saying
that you were a little fearful of beginning. I think
if we're going to be transparent, I think that's the
case for a lot of Western Christians. I hate to
draw those kinds of adjective lines around, but let's just
(33:50):
say here in the West, because we're post nine over 11,
I bet you 99% of the people listening to us
right now wouldn't have even thought about Islam before nine
over 11, but that changed our way of thinking forever.
In the meantime, the Lord has brought the mission field
from over there to right here and now. A lot
of American Christians don't even know how to begin to
(34:11):
engage with their Muslim friends. They're afraid. They don't know.
They don't know where to begin a dialogue. They have
no point of reference. They don't know. Unlike Brian in
New Zealand, they don't know the side by side comparisons
between the Quran and what the Word of God has
to say. So they're afraid to even engage. So, Ahmed,
where do we start? How do we, if we like Jesus,
(34:32):
don't want to see anybody be eternally separated from a
loving God. And so we have these Muslim neighbors and
friends and coworkers. But we're afraid. Where do we start?
How do we begin the dialogue?
S7 (34:47):
Um, thank you for that question. And yes, I see
that around me. And, um, I have been rejected from, uh,
many churches, um, just because I am from that background.
Although I say Jesus Christ is my Lord, but I've
been casted away. Um, I would say love the love
(35:08):
of First Corinthians 13. Let them see Jesus in you.
I'm not asking you to be a scholar in the
Quran or Islam, but I am asking you to read
the Bible, to read Jesus words, to obey them. And
Jesus said, if you love me, obey my commandments. And
commitments and his commitments are simply this is the greatest commission.
(35:29):
Go ye and make disciples of all nations. I know
that it's really difficult. I know that you have seen
a lot of the 1% of of Islam, but most
of the Muslims around you, they are nominal Muslims. I
came from a very strict form of Islam, that is
the Wahhabi Islam. But if you can't love them, that's
(35:53):
the best that you can do.
S1 (35:54):
Yeah, exactly. Let me pick up on that, because I
think that's hugely important. And what a wake up call
for the church, by the way, aren't we going to
be surprised when we get to glory? I never thought
they would have made it in. What do you think
the church is going to look like in heaven? And
by the way, this idea of rejection, we've referenced our
brother Paul on more than one occasion. I bet he
experienced the same thing that Ahmed did too, time and
(36:15):
again back after this. I don't know what hearing stories
like the one you're listening to this hour do to you, but. Oh,
it forces me to my knees. It reminds me of
(36:35):
the price Christ paid for me. And it reminds me
of the price I might be called to pay for
following him. We need to hear stories like those of
Doctor Ahmed Jackson, this medical doctor from Saudi Arabia, the
son of a mufti in Mecca. It doesn't get any
more intense than that in the world of Islam. And
yet Jesus comes to him in a dream. Old things
pass away. All things become new. And Doctor Jackson's name
(36:58):
is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. And nothing
and no one can separate him from the love of God.
So he writes a book with the help of his friend,
Pastor Matthew Black, called From Mecca to Christ A True
Story from the son of the Meccan Mufti. It's there
on my website for your perusal, if you'll go to
in the market with Janet parshall.org. Click on that red
box that says Program Details and audio takes you to
(37:19):
the information page. There's a link to Doctor Jackson's ministry,
and there's the book From Mecca to Christ as well. Amit,
let me go back to what you were saying before.
Just love them. We need to just take a look
at statistics. We have 3.5 million. According to some data reports,
we have 3.5 million Muslims here in the United States.
When I was a child, growing up in my Bible church,
we used to talk about going over there to the
(37:39):
mission field. Now the mission field is right here in
your own backyard. So showing the love of Christ is
extremely important. You also point out that introducing our Muslim
friends to other Christians is also beneficial. Why is that?
S7 (37:53):
I would say that that is beneficial because the light
of Christ is in those other believers in him. And
unless the other Christians would show those Muslims the Word
of God and read with them the Bible, they would
never come to know Jesus. If you secluded the Muslims,
how would they hear unless you know somebody is there
(38:14):
telling them, right? So it's really important that you show
them the love of first Corinthians 13. And I'm sorry,
but I have to say this. That Jesus in Matthew
five verse 44 says, but I tell you, love your
enemies and pray for those who persecute you. And I
(38:34):
do that myself. So, um, I would say to, to
to let them see that Christ in you and to
read with them the, the words of of God. Um,
that is more sufficient to show them the light of
the gospel.
S1 (38:52):
Wow. Amazing. I would love for you to share your story.
You talk about God's protective hand in your life. Coming
from Saudi Arabia to the United States is no easy feat.
You really and truly have to come seeking asylum, one
would say, after five attempts on your life. You've more
than qualified, but it still takes a move of Congress
to be able to get you asylum. Share that story
(39:12):
with us.
S7 (39:13):
Um, yes. So. So I came here and I applied
with almost 41 affidavit. Um, you know, written under penalty
of perjury. They had to swear under the penalty of
perjury that those things are true. And they came with pictures, videos,
and even with intelligence reports from another country and from
(39:34):
the get go. When I got to the asylum office,
the officer was just against me and with no reason.
And after the interview, we talked to another lawyer who
who looked at my case and said the decision is biased.
So we we prayed and um, I was hurt that
some Christians even said that my story is not true.
(39:57):
And I'm just making that up. And I remember that
I closed my eyes and I prayed, Lord Jesus, you,
you are my witness. I'm under your protection. Vindicate me, Jesus.
And he. He answered my prayer and we began to, um,
to talk to senators. And, um, there is no reason
(40:17):
that those senators and congressmen and women would come to
my help. But God moved them to come to my aid.
And in no time, and especially I'm thankful to the
Senator of Illinois, Durbin, and to Congressman LaHood and others.
But those two are the first who stood by my side.
(40:39):
And they they made inquiry to the immigration office. And
God just turned the table upside down in a day
and a night.
S1 (40:51):
Wow. And again, what we want to point out to
our friends all across the country is that it ended
up being bipartisan support, which is a word we use
here in Washington, D.C. that means there were support from
both sides of the aisle. Again, an act of God
that there's no other way to define this. I mean,
I think it's important for people to understand that when
we look back at nine over 11, is it true
(41:13):
that you were related to some of the hijackers?
S7 (41:17):
And I'm sad to say this, but that's true. Um, those, uh,
some of those hijackers were from my own tribe, and
I'm ashamed to say that, but that happened, and I'm
thankful that Jesus took me from that deep darkness.
S1 (41:32):
Yes. But I want our friends to realize that one.
Until your heart is changed by Jesus Christ, your life
doesn't change. Your worldview doesn't change what you've been trained
to believe as a child, what you've been trained to
believe at the mosque. Memorizing the Quran doesn't change until
you have an encounter with Jesus, which Pastor Matt takes
us right back full circle to this mandate to really
(41:56):
declare the whole truth of the whole gospel to the
whole world. I want to hear your heart as a pastor.
When you hear that Ahmed is rejected by some in
the Christian community because of where he came from, what
his background is, what goes through your heart?
S6 (42:07):
Well, having at first not believed him, you know I have.
I have a tender heart for those who who might
be suspicious. But it brings us back to the high
cost of following Jesus. I've learned a new level of
Christianity since I've met Doctor Ahmed, that Christ calls us
to deny ourselves and take up a cross and do
(42:28):
whatever it takes to reach people for Jesus Christ. And
I think, um, God in these last days is awakening
a sleeping church and giving us his heart for all nations.
And so it's incredible that this, this young doctor has
come all the way from Saudi Arabia and is a
member of our church. I wake up every day going,
(42:52):
I'm just completely amazed. And I know that God wants
to do that with churches throughout America and the world.
Give us the heart of God.
S1 (43:00):
Yes, Amen and amen. Pastor Matt, I can't thank you
enough for introducing me to our brother, Doctor Ahmed Jackson.
Doctor Jackson, I pray that God continues to open doors
for you to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, to
tell your testimony. You are a living picture of what
it means when old things pass away and all things
become new. Thank you for challenging us, the followers of
(43:22):
Jesus Christ, to show the love of Christ to the
world around us. That is the hallmark of distinction. And
like you said earlier, we are all fractured earthen vessels
carrying this imperishable message to a very, very thirsty world.
Thank you for your courage. Thank you for your obedience.
Thank you for your testimony and thank you so much,
(43:43):
both of you for spending the hour with us. Blessings, blessings, blessings.
Pray for Pastor John. You can imagine that there are
some who now consider him an infidel. So pray for
protection and safety for him and pray that churches would
welcome him with open arms. Hearing that kind of a
message will put us back on mission. As followers of
Jesus Christ. That great commission still to this moment remains great.
(44:07):
The question is whether or not we will step into
it in obedience. Thanks for joining us, friends. We'll see
you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Hi friends, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and it is my sincere hope that you'll hear something
that will equip you, edify you, encourage you, enlighten you,
and then gently but consistently push you out into the
marketplace of ideas where you can let your light so
shine before men and go and tell them the good news.
Before you listen to this podcast, let me just tell
you about this month's truth tool. It's called The Jesus Book,
(00:20):
written by pastor Jack Graham. I love it because he
really does recognize the fact that biblical literacy is declining,
and that a lot of people think that the Bible
is too complicated, that it's written for pastors or for scholars.
And yet, in truth, Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation.
And that book was written for every single one of us.
We just need a better way to know how to
study God's Word. And that's exactly what the Jesus Book
(00:42):
is all about. So when you give a gift of
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(01:04):
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enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends, this is Janet partial. Thanks
(01:30):
so much for choosing to spend the next hour with us.
Today's program is pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open.
But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy
the broadcast.
S2 (01:39):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:41):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:43):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:45):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S5 (01:49):
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S3 (01:51):
Idea is not.
S1 (02:07):
Hello, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
I thank you so much for spending the hour with me. Listen,
do you take the Word of God seriously? I hope
you do. So when you read in his precious, inerrant, transcendent, immutable,
absolutely filled with truth from the first verse of Genesis
to the last word in Revelation. When you look at
that book and it says that he is not willing
(02:28):
that any should perish, what do you think he means
by that? Or when we read that God so loved
the world, the cosmos, that he gave his only son,
that whoever believes in him will not perish but have
everlasting life, that means it is the whole truth of
the whole gospel to the whole world. And I am
so happy we have an eternity, because it's going to
take that long to hear all of the stories of
(02:50):
how people came to faith in Christ. So pardon me
if I sound a little bit excited, but I'll tell
you what, these are the stories that since I was
a little girl. Make my heart race so fast. I
think it's going to come out of my chest. I
love hearing stories of how people came to Jesus. It's
so humbling to see how he pursues us. We think
we have found God. It's the other way around. He
(03:12):
pursues us. And how thankful I am personally for that
profound truth. And I love to hear how creative, how inventive,
how unbelievably awe inspiring are the stories of how Jesus
pursues people and draws them to himself, even in the
most bizarre of places. I mean, imagine, I don't know,
(03:34):
let me just pick a country, Saudi Arabia. Now, we
know that this is the heart of Wahhabism, which is
a particularly virulent form of Islam. We know there's no
such thing as religious liberty in that country. You can't
bring a Bible in. We know that people are beheaded
for crimes. We know that people have their hands cut
off for crimes. We know that there are vice police.
It is a very, very difficult country, but it is very,
(03:56):
very strategically important to the United States. So we have
this geopolitical tension with the nation of Saudi Arabia. But
there's also an opportunity there for the gospel. Not easy.
But then again, in that book I just referenced, where
does it say it was going to be always easy
to share the are you reading a version? I'm not
to send it to me. I'd like to see that part.
I all I know is that we're told to go
(04:17):
and tell, and the results we leave in the Lord's hands.
So I want you to know, I just love this
medium of radio, because it really sometimes puts me in
touch with people I wouldn't meet until we're going to
be spending eternity together. So that's the case with Pastor
Matthew Black, this dear man who's a senior pastor of
living Hope Bible Church in Roselle, Illinois, gets on the email,
sends it to me and says, you're going to want
(04:38):
to know about my friend. I wouldn't know about his friend,
who I will introduce in just a moment, because both
of these dear gentlemen are with me this hour. But
if Pastor Matt had not emailed me, I would know
about this story. And therefore you probably would know about
this story, but you're going to hear it. Let me
tell you a little bit about Pastor Matt. First. He is,
as I said before, senior pastor. But he's also studied
theology in Spanish for his undergrad. He's currently pursuing graduate
(05:01):
studies at Faith Bible Seminary in Lafayette, Indiana. He's certified
with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. He has been
a foreign missionary in the Madrid and Basque regions of Spain.
How cool is that? Hence, the Spanish comes in real
handy assisting in the establishment of a church in Christian
camp and enjoys living Hope's Spanish ministry. He enjoys supporting
(05:22):
the Dundee Scottish Pipe Band. He had me at the
pipe band Believe Me, and serving on the board of
Bible Visuals International and participating in the Chicagoland Gospel Network.
So let me welcome you first, Pastor Matt. And when
you say Dundee, are you talking Scotland or Illinois?
S6 (05:37):
Oh, I'm talking about Scotland, but it also happens to
be in Illinois.
S1 (05:41):
Exactly.
S6 (05:43):
It's great. That's terrific.
S1 (05:45):
You as well. And thank you, thank you, thank you
for the gentleman that I am about to introduce. Now,
Doctor Ahmed Jackson is with us. He is a physician
and I don't want to say anything else other than
he has written an absolutely stirring book called From Mecca
to Christ. And here's the subtitle. First hint of his
story a True story from the son of the Meccan,
(06:05):
Mufti Ahmed. I thank you from the bottom of my
heart for being here. So I just have to start
from the beginning. Tell me what it's like to grow
up in Saudi Arabia. Tell me about your family and
in particular, tell me about your father, please.
S7 (06:18):
Thank you, Janet, for having me. It's an honor to
be with you today. Um, so I'm from, um, Mecca,
Saudi Arabia, and growing there. It's different than being here
in the United States of America. Um, imagine, um, you know,
going to Chicago where, um, and Chicago all of a
sudden become without any church, and there is religious beliefs
(06:38):
all around. Um, so, you know, growing in Saudi Arabia
is like, um, it's I don't think any American can
imagine how different it is unless you go there. Um,
my my father is an Islamic mufti in Mecca, and
Mecca is the holiest site for all Muslims. Growing up,
(06:59):
I go. I went to the mosque five times a day.
And one of those times is in the early morning.
Imagine in, um, freezing cold in Chicago, you wake up
and you have to wash certain parts of the body,
and then you have to go to the mosque. Um,
so my father also is a judge, uh, Sharia law judge. So, um,
(07:21):
it's based on, on, um, the Sharia law of Islam. Um,
that is based on the Koran itself. So, yeah.
S1 (07:29):
Very devout. And you went and worshipped with your father.
Help our friends understand you're talking to people all across
the country. When someone is a mufti, what kinds of
responsibilities does that bear? What was he required to do
as a mufti?
S7 (07:44):
So, um, if you read the Bible, you understand the
role of the Pharisees. And basically he would, um, Elaborate
if something is lawful or unlawful. So people would come
to him and ask him, can we do this? Are
we allowed to do this by the Sharia law? And
he would tell them, yes, you can do this based
on one, two, three from the Koran or the Sunnah
(08:08):
or not. You cannot do that. So basically that's his
role as a mufti.
S1 (08:13):
Wow. Now this was important obviously that you be devout
as well. How important was the Quran when you were
a boy growing up?
S7 (08:21):
Yes. So, um, we, uh, we were, um, forced and
encouraged to go to the mosque, um, and memorize the Koran.
And I have memorized the entire Koran without a single mistake.
Not out of love, but out of fear. And this
is what I have to say.
S1 (08:42):
Wow. Let me pick it up at that point. Now,
I want you to remember that Pastor Matthew Black is
with us as well. And I'm going to fold him
into the story when it's the appropriate time. But again,
this is an amazing story of a man raised by
a Mecca mufti in Saudi Arabia. I mean, this is
sort of ground zero, if you will, of Islam on
planet Earth. And yet the name of the book that
(09:04):
he's authored is From Mecca to Christ. So, you know,
there's a story there. Oh, and is there ever we're
going to continue right after this. Bible literacy is declining
even among Christians. It's time for us to cultivate Bible
(09:25):
reading habits that will transform our faith. That's why I've
chosen the Jesus Book as this month's truth tool. Discover
how to apply Scripture to our everyday lives and to
know its power. As for your copy of the Jesus Book,
when you give a gift of any amount to in
the market, call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go
online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Fascinating conversation
(09:51):
with Pastor Matthew Black, who's the senior pastor of living
Hope Bible Church in Roselle, Illinois, and Doctor Ahmed Jordan,
who's a medical doctor turned evangelist and also author of
the book From Mecca to Christ. So, Ahmed, if I may,
I want to go back to you said something very
intriguing just before the break. You said you memorized the
Quran without a mistake. You didn't do it out of love.
(10:13):
You did it out of fear. Why was there fear
in this?
S7 (10:18):
Well, um, if you make a mistake in any verse
in the Quran, it's shameful. And to some Muslims, it's
as sinful as well. Um, and there is a punishment
if you do a mistake, for example. Um, I did
like about 20 of those mistakes. And, um, um, if I, um,
did a mistake in a verse in the Quran, my
(10:39):
teacher would place me in front of the whole mosque.
And it's a big mosque, and I'll be placed on
the ground and my feet will be up, and they will,
you know, strike my feet. Um, and it's really, really, uh, hurtful.
It's painful to the degree that I at that moment,
I wouldn't be able to walk after that, and nobody
(10:59):
would help me because I have done something shameful. I
came from a culture of shame and honor. And to them,
if you do something shameful, you're basically done and nobody
will help you. And there is no mercy on that.
S1 (11:11):
There's so much that you have to teach us. Ahmed,
let me ask you, as a young boy growing up again,
your father having a very prestigious position, and that was
being a mufti in Mecca, the holiest of all places
for Muslims. And yet, as you're memorizing the Quran, you
can't make a mistake, you can't embarrass your family, you
can't make a mistake or be embarrassed in front of
the leaders. You also, right? With the Quran now memorized,
(11:33):
it was time to learn how to wage holy war
for Allah. Jihad is the highest honor for any Muslim.
Let me stop. This is right out of your book,
from Mecca to Christ. You know, very often you will
hear people say, well, jihad means the personal internal struggles
that go on? Uh, Christians would misinterpret that to say, oh,
you mean like the the internal struggles that the apostle
(11:54):
Paul talked about, right? But is that really what jihad means,
or was it really training for physical war?
S7 (12:02):
Well, in the sense of Sunni Islam, it is, um,
a physical jihad of killing others. And it's it's coming
from chapter nine, chapter number nine of the Quran, verse 111,
which is the only guaranteed way to go to heaven
is by the blood of someone. And we know as
(12:23):
believers in Christ that we are going to heaven by
the blood of Jesus. And it's really sad that nobody
is going to to Muslims and telling them that you
don't need to kill anyone else. Jesus already died for you,
and that is the perfect sacrifice that you could ever
present to God to pardon you from your sins. So yes,
(12:45):
it's out of that chapter of the Quran and it's
physical jihad, Yes.
S1 (12:49):
It is physical. Wow. So you. This is chilling, Ahmed.
You talk about the fact that you literally went to
a camp. There were people from all over the world.
You were instructed through videos how to slaughter, quote infidels,
through military training, through bomb making and hand-to-hand combat. Did
you think that someday you were actually going to be called,
for the sake of Allah, to have to take another
person's life?
S7 (13:10):
Um, sure. You know, coming from a tribe with that
kind of heritage and history, I was thinking that is
my way. And I was thinking, I will end up
like those whom I saw on on those videos. But
of course, I'm here now with you. And it's. It's
God's way, not my way.
S1 (13:29):
Yeah, absolutely. 100%. But it helps so that we can understand.
So we can have a softer heart, so we can
begin to understand how we can share the gospel with
our Muslim friends. Did you truly think before you had
an encounter with Christ, that your only way of making
it to Paradise would somehow be absolute allegiance to the
Quran and if necessary, take the life of an infidel,
(13:51):
and that you would, in essence, if I can put
it in these words, buying your way into Paradise.
S7 (13:58):
Yes, according to the Quran. Yes. And, um, you know, um,
the Islam that I grew up in, the Sunni Islam,
the Wahhabism in particular. Yes. You have to do that, um,
in order to have a guaranteed way to go to
to heaven. And that's why the nine over 11 happened,
and I'm sad to say that, but it's based on
that verse in the Koran.
S1 (14:19):
Yes. But it helps us understand. I mean, unless your
heart changes, your worldview doesn't change. So it makes perfect sense.
But the story doesn't end there. As you say. You're
joining me from California. We're actually speaking at a conference.
And the book is that you wrote is called From
Mecca to Christ. So here you are literally being trained
in a jihadi camp, literally thinking that the time may
(14:40):
come when you'd be called upon to take another person's life,
and in so doing, you would have been an absolute
obedience to what the Quran taught. But that was not
God's plan for your life, and he shows up in
a very miraculous way. Talk to me about this.
S7 (14:55):
Yes. So growing up, they did not teach us English
because English is the language of infidel and infidelity. And
I graduated from high school and I wanted to join
College of Medicine. Medicine is taught in English worldwide. And,
you know, going there in the first class and seeing
this different language that I've never seen before in my life, um,
(15:16):
you know, um, failure came on the board. It's like, hey,
you're going to fail. You have to look for another way.
So I went and I used Google Translator. I copied
all those pages translated to Arabic, but that was time consuming.
So I went to New Zealand to study English. And
after two and a half months, I saw a dream
(15:38):
that basically turned my life upside down.
S1 (15:43):
I love it. So you had a dream. And what
happens in the dream?
S7 (15:49):
Yes. So, um, two weeks prior to that dream, um,
a man who loved Muslims, he prayed that the Lord
will send him someone from Saudi Arabia. Ambassador Bryan, um,
from the Auckland Baptist Tabernacle. He he said, Lord, you
have sent us Muslims from Iran, from Iraq, from other nations,
but no one from Saudi Arabia. Lord, would you send
(16:10):
us someone from Saudi Arabia? And he prayed with his church.
Two weeks after that prayer, um, while I was sleeping
on my bed, the balcony opened up and a light,
a light came to the room. It's like you're walking
in a dark street with no light and a light.
All of a sudden, you know, shine on you. And
(16:31):
in the dream the Lord said, come to me. I
began to tremble with terror at the glorious, majestic person.
And I said, where do you want me to come
to you? The Lord said, go to the house of
the White Pillars. There you shall find the truth.
S1 (16:48):
But let me stop right there, and I'm going to
pick up the dream at this point. Wow. What did
I tell you about the Lord pursuing us? We're visiting
with Doctor Ahmed Jackson and Pastor Matthew Black. This is
a powerful story, but it reveals exactly how big our
God is. Do you know him today? I hope the
story is stirring you to do some seeking on your
(17:10):
own journey back after this. This is in the market
with Janet Parshall. What a joy to spend time with.
(17:30):
Pastor Matthew Black, senior pastor of living Hope Bible Church
in Roselle, Illinois, and Doctor Ahmed Jackson, who's a medical
doctor who's now turned evangelist. And I'm going to go
back to the dream in a minute. But, Pastor Matt,
I just have to ask you, I'm a little old
Bible church girl myself, and growing up, we didn't we
didn't do a lot of talking about Jesus showing up
in dreams. And to this day, I know that there
(17:51):
are people listening going, no, no, no, no, no, that
doesn't happen. Talk to me. As a pastor, when you
heard this story, what went through your mind?
S6 (17:59):
Well, I had the same reaction. No, that doesn't happen.
But apparently it does. And God is reaching Muslims all
around the world in this unique way.
S1 (18:09):
Yeah. And we hear it again and again and again.
But does it not go to what I said earlier,
which is if the declaration in his word is that
he's not willing that any should perish, then why would
he not use all means at his disposal, including dreams? So, Ahmed,
let me go back to you. So you're having this dream.
I love the fact that this dear man in New
Zealand said, Lord, send me a muslim from Saudi Arabia.
(18:32):
You come. The Lord shows up to you in a dream.
The Lord says to you, go to the house of
white pillars, and there you shall find the truth. What
was the house with white pillars? Please pick up your
story from there.
S7 (18:44):
Yes. So at that time I did not know the
exact name of the building. All I saw is a
building with white pillars. So, um, the Lord took me
in a way that is mentioned in the book, but
at the end I went there. And that building is
the Auckland Baptist Tabernacle. And, um, it's a church plant
from London. Um, have you ever heard about the famous preacher, um,
(19:07):
Charles Spurgeon? Yes, indeed. Um. His son? Yeah. His son
went there to plant that church. So it is that church,
and it's an old building. Um, it looked like a
room in, uh, kind of, uh, structure. Um, and to me,
at that time, it looked like a museum.
S1 (19:24):
So you go. It's this famous, uh, church in New
Zealand founded by the son of Charles Spurgeon. And what
happens when you get to the church?
S7 (19:32):
Yes. So I entered inside, um, and, you know, Brian, um, he,
with a smile, uh, greeted me in Arabic and, um,
he told me to sit down and he asked me
to tell him about the dream, which was shocking for me.
How would he know? And then I. After I finished,
you know, he, uh. He told me that I have
(19:52):
seen Isa in my dream. Um, you know, and then, um, he, um,
talked to me more about Isa from the Koran, and, uh,
it shocked me how this man knew about the verses
of Jesus in the Koran. Um, as you know that
there are many verses in the Koran that speaking about
(20:12):
Jesus that is borrowed from the the New Testament.
S8 (20:17):
Mhm.
S1 (20:18):
And Isa, of course, is the reference to Jesus in
the Quran. So he walks you through. He praised God.
This man understood the Quran, knew the Quran knew immediately
how to connect, was able to show you what the
Quran said versus what the Bible said. He talks to you.
And then why and how did you decide to make
the decision to give your life to Jesus?
S7 (20:40):
Um, I would say because of the love of this
man who, um, continued and endured all of my questions,
and he answered them first in a manner that, um,
that I could understand. Um, he did not, um, bring
the cross to me, but he brought me. He lifted
me up to the cross, basically. Um, so he talked
(21:01):
to me from the Quran and about, um, who is
the word of God in the Koran and the word
of God. You'll be surprised. But the word of God
in the Quran is Jesus. You know, truth is truth
and light is light. It doesn't matter where it's light. Um,
and the glorious light of the gospel is also there,
(21:21):
although it's faint, but it's there.
S1 (21:23):
Wow. Wow. So all of us, those of us who
can remember the specific day we made this decision to
believe Jesus, to ask him to come into our life,
to take away our sins. When you made that decision,
this is absolutely against everything you knew as a child
growing up. It's against everything you were taught in the Quran.
(21:43):
You went through the ritual of five times a day going, uh,
and showing up at the mosque, bathing, praying, memorizing the Quran,
going to jihadi camp. I mean, Jesus could not be
more different than everything that was in your DNA. Did
you stop and say, wait a minute. This just might
cost me if I make this decision?
S7 (22:06):
Well, at that time, with a dream and with the
love of, uh, Brian that he showed me the love
of God through Jesus. Um, at that moment, I did
not see the future. What will happen when I accept
Jesus as my my Lord and Savior? Um, but after that,
I saw the cost, you know? But God was with
(22:27):
me even through those, um, times of trials.
S1 (22:30):
Wow. So you come to New Zealand to study English?
Do you? Then and again, you're going to be a
medical doctor. English is the language that's universal in medical training.
Are you going to go back then to Saudi Arabia
from New Zealand?
S7 (22:45):
Well, when that dream happened, I was trembling with fear
and I called the travel agency and I said, please
send me back to Saudi Arabia as soon as possible.
And the travel agency told me that, you know, the
next available seat is a week from that time. So
I feel like trapped in that country and for a reason.
So the Lord was prepared me to meet Brian and
(23:08):
to hear the Word of God. Brian took me to
John one. In the beginning was the word, and the
word was with God, and the word is God. So
he took me from there. And, um, he explained to
me that, um, your word is with you and it's
one with you. So Jesus Isa is one with God. And, um,
(23:29):
when he came to New Zealand, you paid with New
Zealand dollars. You couldn't pay with your Saudi riyals. When
you stand before God, you have to pay with a payment.
That is according to the standards of God, and Jesus
is the only one that can satisfy that payment.
S1 (23:48):
Exactly. Wow. And again, look how God moves. So if
you had gotten a seat earlier, perhaps you wouldn't have
had the dream. You wouldn't have ended up at the
house with the white pillars. You wouldn't have met Brian.
Brian wouldn't have taken you to the Word of God,
and things would be so dramatically different. But eventually you
do get back in an airplane and you do go
back to Saudi Arabia. Now remember that song that you
(24:08):
sung in church? I've decided to follow Jesus. No turning back,
no turning back. What price do you think Doctor Jordan
had to pay? You'll find out right after this. Friends,
this is Janet Parshall, and I want to take a
moment to remind you that today's program is prerecorded so
(24:30):
our phone lines aren't open. But I sure do appreciate
your spending the hour with us. And thanks so much
and enjoy the rest of the program.
S3 (24:36):
Ma'am.
S1 (24:42):
When we tackle tough issues on in the market, do
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(25:03):
the market with Janet Parshall. What an amazing conversation with
Pastor Matthew Black, senior pastor of living Hope Bible Church
in Roselle, Illinois, and Doctor Ahmed Jackson, who's a medical
doctor turned evangelist. He has written the book From Mecca
to Christ A True Story from the son of the
Meccan Mufti. Absolutely fascinating. So, Ahmed, you come to faith
(25:27):
in Christ in New Zealand. You then get on a plane,
you go back to Saudi Arabia. And I said just
before the break that sometimes we fail to realize that
Jesus paid it all for us. And if we choose
to follow Jesus, we're going to have some challenging times.
And you certainly did as well. You go back to
Saudi Arabia and you write in your book that you
(25:48):
faced death, death not once, but five times. Tell our
friends what happened.
S7 (25:55):
Yes. And I want to say that, um, in second
Timothy three, verse 12, indeed, all who desire to live
a godly life following after Christ Jesus Christ Jesus will
be persecuted. So, um, yes, five times I faced death.
And the first one is when Brian, um, he, um,
basically sent me off on the airport and he gave
(26:16):
me a gift, and he said, this will guide you.
He knew that there is no one in Saudi Arabia
who can guide me in faith. So, um, and that
gift was the New Testament in Arabic. And when my
father found out that I have a New Testament in Mecca,
Saudi Arabia, um, he he did not take that lightly
(26:36):
and to the point that he put AK 47 to
my head. Um, and, um, you know, but the Lord, um,
rescued me from that moment.
S1 (26:45):
So he puts an AK 47 to your head, and
then you don't die. Then you get arrested by the
religious police. Why?
S7 (26:53):
You know, the light of the glorious gospel was shining
in my heart, and I couldn't contain that. I am
the fragile clay jar. And I have this treasure that
I want to share with everyone. So I share the
gospel with a fellow Saudi person. And at the beginning
he was agreeing with me. But when I prayed in
(27:14):
the name of Jesus, um, you know, he called the
religious police and they came in and they, they start
to beat the heck out of me without a mercy.
In the U.S., we don't have religious beliefs. We have
the police, police. But in Saudi Arabia, we have the
state police and we have the religious police. And they
knock 13, 13 teeth off my from my mouth.
S1 (27:34):
Oh, Oh my word. Because you're not allowed to evangelize
at all in Saudi Arabia. And so you now were
paying the price another time. The Saudi government goes after
you with a tanker. Tell me about this.
S7 (27:48):
So I used to go to a church that is 13.
Hear me out. 13 hours each way in the next
door country. Like you're going to worship in Canada and
come back to Chicago. And, um, after a year of
of being there, I was I was discovered and I
was put in, in, um, in, in jail for a night.
(28:09):
And they released me on terms that I would never
go to that meeting. Um, but the book of Hebrews
is telling me that I should not forsake that simply
if the of the if the part of the church.
So I drove back and probably I was a troublemaker.
So they wanted to make that look like an accident.
And they want they wanted me to basically melt. Um,
(28:31):
and that was the acid tanker. But God snatched me
from the jaws of death.
S1 (28:36):
And that's time number three. Then there are two more
occasions where you're literally fired on with rifles. Tell me
about that.
S7 (28:45):
So that light is still shining in my heart and
I couldn't contain it. So I continued to share the
gospel in Saudi Arabia and other countries. And, uh, because
I became a troublemaker. Now, um, they started to realize
that they should have they should get rid of me,
but they did not realize that I'm under the best
witness protection program. God's witness protection program. Eye witness for Jesus.
(29:11):
And he protects me all the time. So they started
to shoot at me, and I didn't want to leave
Saudi Arabia. I wanted to share the gospel because I
know that not many people want to go there. The
last person who went crazy in Saudi Arabia and shared
everywhere was Paul in Galatians one, verse 17 and 18. Mhm.
But it was it was time for me to leave.
(29:31):
And the Lord made a way for me.
S1 (29:33):
Well. And got out of Saudi Arabia. Have you been
back since?
S7 (29:38):
No. Unfortunately, no.
S1 (29:39):
Oh, that has to be hard for you. Have you
lost contact with your father?
S7 (29:45):
Um. Since that day when he bought AK 47 to
my head. Um, he basically disowned me because I was
ashamed on him and on my on my tribe. And
since then, um, since I came from a culture of
shame and honor, he wouldn't even recognize me anymore.
S9 (30:01):
Oh. Oh, Ahmed.
S1 (30:03):
It's so important for us to hear this because, um,
we need to count the cost. Did you ever think,
you know, it would have been a whole lot easier
if I never had that dream? You know, if I.
If I just hadn't gone to the house with the
white pillars, I wouldn't have faced death five times. I
wouldn't have been put out in my culture, in my country,
from my father. Did you ever think it's not worth it?
S7 (30:23):
Well, um, after I've seen all that, I'm like, thank you, God,
for making me go through all that. Because if I
didn't go through those persecution and trials, I would have
known that you exist. I would have would have not
known that Jesus loves me. And I would have never
(30:43):
known that God is in control. And those verses in
the gospel are still alive and applicable today.
S1 (30:51):
Pastor Matt, let me go to you at this point,
and by the grace of God, Ahmed is in the
United States of America. He's teaching pastors. He's written his book.
He has this now fabulous ministry that we're so grateful for.
And by the way, you can learn more by going
to my website and you can learn about Mecca to Christ.
This is a fabulous ministry. How does your life intersects
(31:12):
with Ahmed's? How in the world is this dear physician
turned evangelist just not an author of a book, but
someone whose life intersected with yours?
S6 (31:21):
So after he he got hit at night by that
acid tanker, they had put it, um, with its lights
out in the street, in the highway where he was
crossing from that 13. Hour journey to church. After that,
he was all scarred up and he had come to.
The United States just to encourage pastors and churches to
(31:45):
reach Muslims for Jesus Christ and his pastor in in
another Gulf state country, um recommended that he come to
our little church. He had heard about it. And, uh,
so what a long distance recommendation. I was kind of shocked.
And I met him in June of 2016, and I
(32:08):
was actually afraid of him when I first met him
because I didn't trust him. He. I came to find
out that he's a modern day Arabian, Saul of Tarsus.
And just like they did not receive Paul immediately. So
it is so it was with Doctor Ahmed and and yet, um,
(32:28):
he joined us. I heard his testimony. I was so moved,
just like we've heard today. And he joined us for
an evening service and he shared his amazing testimony. It
melted the hearts of our our little congregation. And then
he left to go back to Saudi. And I begged
him not to go back. I knew his life would
(32:49):
be in danger. We were on the phone probably every
other day. It's amazing. Through, um, through various WhatsApp and
FaceTime and all of that. You can actually talk very
well through these to other countries. But I said, you're
probably going to die. So we need to start writing
down your story. And with tears of sorrow and joy, uh,
(33:12):
each day I went with him through his journey from
Mecca to Christ. And I asked so much about his
story and what Islam is like, and I wrote down
everything that he dictated to me. And that's that's the
book that that he just published.
S1 (33:29):
Wow. Wow. What an amazing story. It takes my breath away. Amen.
Let me ask you, in the West, we have. And
thank you, Pastor Matt, for being so honest about saying
that you were a little fearful of beginning. I think
if we're going to be transparent, I think that's the
case for a lot of Western Christians. I hate to
draw those kinds of adjective lines around, but let's just
(33:50):
say here in the West, because we're post nine over 11,
I bet you 99% of the people listening to us
right now wouldn't have even thought about Islam before nine
over 11, but that changed our way of thinking forever.
In the meantime, the Lord has brought the mission field
from over there to right here and now. A lot
of American Christians don't even know how to begin to
(34:11):
engage with their Muslim friends. They're afraid. They don't know.
They don't know where to begin a dialogue. They have
no point of reference. They don't know. Unlike Brian in
New Zealand, they don't know the side by side comparisons
between the Quran and what the Word of God has
to say. So they're afraid to even engage. So, Ahmed,
where do we start? How do we, if we like Jesus,
(34:32):
don't want to see anybody be eternally separated from a
loving God. And so we have these Muslim neighbors and
friends and coworkers. But we're afraid. Where do we start?
How do we begin the dialogue?
S7 (34:47):
Um, thank you for that question. And yes, I see
that around me. And, um, I have been rejected from, uh,
many churches, um, just because I am from that background.
Although I say Jesus Christ is my Lord, but I've
been casted away. Um, I would say love the love
(35:08):
of First Corinthians 13. Let them see Jesus in you.
I'm not asking you to be a scholar in the
Quran or Islam, but I am asking you to read
the Bible, to read Jesus words, to obey them. And
Jesus said, if you love me, obey my commandments. And
commitments and his commitments are simply this is the greatest commission.
(35:29):
Go ye and make disciples of all nations. I know
that it's really difficult. I know that you have seen
a lot of the 1% of of Islam, but most
of the Muslims around you, they are nominal Muslims. I
came from a very strict form of Islam, that is
the Wahhabi Islam. But if you can't love them, that's
(35:53):
the best that you can do.
S1 (35:54):
Yeah, exactly. Let me pick up on that, because I
think that's hugely important. And what a wake up call
for the church, by the way, aren't we going to
be surprised when we get to glory? I never thought
they would have made it in. What do you think
the church is going to look like in heaven? And
by the way, this idea of rejection, we've referenced our
brother Paul on more than one occasion. I bet he
experienced the same thing that Ahmed did too, time and
(36:15):
again back after this. I don't know what hearing stories
like the one you're listening to this hour do to you, but. Oh,
it forces me to my knees. It reminds me of
(36:35):
the price Christ paid for me. And it reminds me
of the price I might be called to pay for
following him. We need to hear stories like those of
Doctor Ahmed Jackson, this medical doctor from Saudi Arabia, the
son of a mufti in Mecca. It doesn't get any
more intense than that in the world of Islam. And
yet Jesus comes to him in a dream. Old things
pass away. All things become new. And Doctor Jackson's name
(36:58):
is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. And nothing
and no one can separate him from the love of God.
So he writes a book with the help of his friend,
Pastor Matthew Black, called From Mecca to Christ A True
Story from the son of the Meccan Mufti. It's there
on my website for your perusal, if you'll go to
in the market with Janet parshall.org. Click on that red
box that says Program Details and audio takes you to
(37:19):
the information page. There's a link to Doctor Jackson's ministry,
and there's the book From Mecca to Christ as well. Amit,
let me go back to what you were saying before.
Just love them. We need to just take a look
at statistics. We have 3.5 million. According to some data reports,
we have 3.5 million Muslims here in the United States.
When I was a child, growing up in my Bible church,
we used to talk about going over there to the
(37:39):
mission field. Now the mission field is right here in
your own backyard. So showing the love of Christ is
extremely important. You also point out that introducing our Muslim
friends to other Christians is also beneficial. Why is that?
S7 (37:53):
I would say that that is beneficial because the light
of Christ is in those other believers in him. And
unless the other Christians would show those Muslims the Word
of God and read with them the Bible, they would
never come to know Jesus. If you secluded the Muslims,
how would they hear unless you know somebody is there
(38:14):
telling them, right? So it's really important that you show
them the love of first Corinthians 13. And I'm sorry,
but I have to say this. That Jesus in Matthew
five verse 44 says, but I tell you, love your
enemies and pray for those who persecute you. And I
(38:34):
do that myself. So, um, I would say to, to
to let them see that Christ in you and to
read with them the, the words of of God. Um,
that is more sufficient to show them the light of
the gospel.
S1 (38:52):
Wow. Amazing. I would love for you to share your story.
You talk about God's protective hand in your life. Coming
from Saudi Arabia to the United States is no easy feat.
You really and truly have to come seeking asylum, one
would say, after five attempts on your life. You've more
than qualified, but it still takes a move of Congress
to be able to get you asylum. Share that story
(39:12):
with us.
S7 (39:13):
Um, yes. So. So I came here and I applied
with almost 41 affidavit. Um, you know, written under penalty
of perjury. They had to swear under the penalty of
perjury that those things are true. And they came with pictures, videos,
and even with intelligence reports from another country and from
(39:34):
the get go. When I got to the asylum office,
the officer was just against me and with no reason.
And after the interview, we talked to another lawyer who
who looked at my case and said the decision is biased.
So we we prayed and um, I was hurt that
some Christians even said that my story is not true.
(39:57):
And I'm just making that up. And I remember that
I closed my eyes and I prayed, Lord Jesus, you,
you are my witness. I'm under your protection. Vindicate me, Jesus.
And he. He answered my prayer and we began to, um,
to talk to senators. And, um, there is no reason
(40:17):
that those senators and congressmen and women would come to
my help. But God moved them to come to my aid.
And in no time, and especially I'm thankful to the
Senator of Illinois, Durbin, and to Congressman LaHood and others.
But those two are the first who stood by my side.
(40:39):
And they they made inquiry to the immigration office. And
God just turned the table upside down in a day
and a night.
S1 (40:51):
Wow. And again, what we want to point out to
our friends all across the country is that it ended
up being bipartisan support, which is a word we use
here in Washington, D.C. that means there were support from
both sides of the aisle. Again, an act of God
that there's no other way to define this. I mean,
I think it's important for people to understand that when
we look back at nine over 11, is it true
(41:13):
that you were related to some of the hijackers?
S7 (41:17):
And I'm sad to say this, but that's true. Um, those, uh,
some of those hijackers were from my own tribe, and
I'm ashamed to say that, but that happened, and I'm
thankful that Jesus took me from that deep darkness.
S1 (41:32):
Yes. But I want our friends to realize that one.
Until your heart is changed by Jesus Christ, your life
doesn't change. Your worldview doesn't change what you've been trained
to believe as a child, what you've been trained to
believe at the mosque. Memorizing the Quran doesn't change until
you have an encounter with Jesus, which Pastor Matt takes
us right back full circle to this mandate to really
(41:56):
declare the whole truth of the whole gospel to the
whole world. I want to hear your heart as a pastor.
When you hear that Ahmed is rejected by some in
the Christian community because of where he came from, what
his background is, what goes through your heart?
S6 (42:07):
Well, having at first not believed him, you know I have.
I have a tender heart for those who who might
be suspicious. But it brings us back to the high
cost of following Jesus. I've learned a new level of
Christianity since I've met Doctor Ahmed, that Christ calls us
to deny ourselves and take up a cross and do
(42:28):
whatever it takes to reach people for Jesus Christ. And
I think, um, God in these last days is awakening
a sleeping church and giving us his heart for all nations.
And so it's incredible that this, this young doctor has
come all the way from Saudi Arabia and is a
member of our church. I wake up every day going,
(42:52):
I'm just completely amazed. And I know that God wants
to do that with churches throughout America and the world.
Give us the heart of God.
S1 (43:00):
Yes, Amen and amen. Pastor Matt, I can't thank you
enough for introducing me to our brother, Doctor Ahmed Jackson.
Doctor Jackson, I pray that God continues to open doors
for you to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, to
tell your testimony. You are a living picture of what
it means when old things pass away and all things
become new. Thank you for challenging us, the followers of
(43:22):
Jesus Christ, to show the love of Christ to the
world around us. That is the hallmark of distinction. And
like you said earlier, we are all fractured earthen vessels
carrying this imperishable message to a very, very thirsty world.
Thank you for your courage. Thank you for your obedience.
Thank you for your testimony and thank you so much,
(43:43):
both of you for spending the hour with us. Blessings, blessings, blessings.
Pray for Pastor John. You can imagine that there are
some who now consider him an infidel. So pray for
protection and safety for him and pray that churches would
welcome him with open arms. Hearing that kind of a
message will put us back on mission. As followers of
Jesus Christ. That great commission still to this moment remains great.
(44:07):
The question is whether or not we will step into
it in obedience. Thanks for joining us, friends. We'll see
you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.
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