June 5, 2025 • 44 mins
What we expect from our future has tremendous power over our experience in the meantime―that’s why the Bible places the hope of heaven at the center of the Christian life. But even if we affirm the reality of our heavenly future, we often struggle to long for heaven, much less to connect the promises of the world to come to the concrete details of life in this world as it is. If and when we think about heaven at all, it’s easy to think of it like an insurance policy that will be there when we need it. But the Bible defines our future hope as an inheritance - a trust fund that is certain, inexhaustible, and freely accessible here and now. Our guest, Matthew McCullough, will offer a series of meditations that model how to draw on the hope of heaven for everyday life in the meantime.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
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this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
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(01:26):
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S2 (01:58):
When we all get to heaven. What a day of
rejoicing that will be. When we all see Jesus, we'll
sing and shout the victory.
S1 (02:17):
Do you believe that? Do you believe that with all
your heart? Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Guess what? That's a big clue. We're going to spend
the hour talking about heaven. Oh, really? When's the last
time you thought about heaven? Okay. You're coming home from work.
You're in that busy hour trying to get dinner on
the table. The kids are running around. Life is too
much with me. As the poet says, that's the last
thing you're doing is thinking about heaven. And yet, if
(02:40):
we have a perspective on heaven, if we look forward
to that day when we will be absent from the
body and present with the Lord. Just talking among ourselves
here for a minute, do you think? Do you just
think it might have an impact on the way we
would live, the choices we would make now, the things
we would do. And why is it that we, in
(03:00):
our oh so busy lives here in the 21st century,
just don't take the time to think about heaven? Well,
that's what we're going to do this entire hour, and
we're going to spend the hour with Doctor Matthew McCullough,
who serves as pastor of Edgewood Church in Nashville, Tennessee.
Before joining with Edgefield, he taught to. He helped to
plant Trinity Church near Vanderbilt University and served as pastor
(03:21):
there for a decade. He and his wife first moved
to Nashville for graduate school at Vanderbilt, where he got
it completed. PhD in American religious history. That I bet
was fascinating. He's the author of three books, including Remembered
Death The Surprising Path to Living Hope, and remember Heaven,
the book we're talking about today, meditations on the World
to Come for life in the meantime. He also writes
(03:44):
on occasion for nine marks in the Gospel Coalition. So, Matt,
the warmest of welcomes. Thank you so very much for
being here. I got to go back to the PhD.
So if the PhD was in American religious history in
curious minds. Want to know what was your dissertation about?
S3 (03:59):
Oh, do you really want to know, though, Janet? Because
I'm so happy to talk to you about this. It
has been a long time since anyone has asked me
that question. Okay. So I studied American religious history and
focused my research on studying Christian nationalism among American pastors
during the Spanish American War of 1898. Now you tell
(04:19):
me how much more you want to know about that.
S1 (04:22):
Well, obviously, I bet the first thing that went through
people's minds was there listening all across the country is
they're thinking, I thought American or Christian nationalism was something
that we talk about now, but certainly had no manifestations
in the early years of our short 250 year history.
And yet, with pinpoint specificity, you go exactly to an
(04:43):
era where this was taking place. How did it manifest
itself then?
S3 (04:47):
Well, this was a war, the Spanish-American War. It was
a war in which America, for the very first time,
fought beyond continental borders for the justification of freeing someone
else who was under an oppression they couldn't escape on
their own. So it got its start with concern about
how the Spanish were treating the Cubans and what was
(05:08):
at the time, a Spanish colony. And then a lot
of the action took place, actually, on the other side
of the world, in the Philippines, another Spanish colony that
was taken by the American Navy during during the war,
Puerto Rico was also involved in Guam. And so it
was a different kind of war than people had had
much time to to think about or reflect on before. And, um,
(05:31):
the pastors had a lot to say about it. They
used columns in their religious newspapers. They used their their
weekly sermons oftentimes to talk about the that justification and
what it means to be a country called to, to
set other people free. Uh, you know, it was, uh,
probably because it was unprecedented. I think it stirred up
a lot more rhetoric than, than maybe would have would
(05:53):
have been present otherwise, even though the war didn't last
very long. Just four months total of fighting. Uh, it
it was very, very prominent in, in the nation's press
and in their pulpits for that whole time.
S1 (06:06):
Absolutely fascinating.
S3 (06:07):
They ended up coming up with a lot of arguments
that would be very influential in the First World War,
which obviously was very much more influential than the Spanish
American War overall. So.
S1 (06:17):
But a precursor, an important precursor.
S3 (06:19):
Exactly.
S1 (06:20):
Wow. So a couple of things come to mind when
we talk about Christian nationalism today. It immediately connotes a
negative response. The way when you talk about what was
happening in this war and you say that it worked
its way into the pulpits. Was it how did that
manifest itself in what the pastors were saying at that time?
Were they encouraging our involvement? Were they going to the
(06:41):
transcendence of trying to help liberate a captive people? Exactly.
How did it was it maybe a better way to
ask the question is, did it have the same sort
of shadows of what we see today, or is it different?
S3 (06:53):
I'm sure that the answer is both. In some ways
it's similar, but there was definitely some uniquenesses to that time.
In particular, the fact that that for the very first time,
Americans were trying to get their minds around fighting for
people who weren't Americans, ostensibly to to give them the
freedom that Americans enjoy. I mean, there was a lot
of focus among Christian pastors on things like the Good
(07:15):
Samaritan parable that was applied to the nation's foreign policy
for the first time that I know of during this war. Um,
even some even went as far as to appeal to,
you know, Christ on the cross, laying down his life
to save others. Uh, to say that, you know, this
nation ought to to lay down its lives for the
sake of those who can't save themselves so close to
(07:36):
our national borders. And, you know, I mean, I think my.
You didn't ask me this, Janet, but I'm just going
to say, I think my, my read on those guys
at that time was that their hearts were, for the
most part in the right place. Whatever was going on
in the highest echelons of power, I think most of
the guys I read thought this was good for the
(07:57):
world because it would be good for for neighbors they
hadn't met yet. Um, I do see it as a
tragic tale, though, because I think where they went wrong
was in assuming that we'd be able to intervene in
those countries without the influence of sin on ourselves, you know.
And what happened was that there were there were rebellions
against American involvement after the Spanish were gone. And sadly,
(08:19):
we ended up using a lot of the same tactics
to put down the rebellion that that the Spanish had
used that got us up in arms over it all
in the first place. And, uh, so I think there's
there's a lot to like about some of the rhetoric
and then a lot to be cautious about, because we
do want to assume that sins in all of us
and we have to be careful. And, um. Yeah.
S1 (08:42):
Fascinating. Are you going to get it published other than
just submitting it? Are you going to publish it?
S3 (08:46):
It was published around the time that I made my
transition from the Academy into the church. A wonderful book
series by the University of Wisconsin Press included it for
publication in their series, so you can find it everywhere.
Books are sold.
S1 (09:00):
Fabulous. Well, I point that out for the history buffs,
and there are many in our audience who would like
to read about that. But what you just told us, Matt,
is such a perfect support of the axiom that says
don't who? Those who study don't study history are doomed
to repeat it. So what were the positives? What were
the negatives, and what can we learn from that particular
chapter of history? I think that's absolutely fascinating, and I'm
so glad I asked. We could spend the rest of
(09:22):
the hour talking about that topic. I find it fascinating,
but when we come back, we are going to talk
about heaven, because I think that's a really good thing
to think about. Matt's got some ideas about why we
don't think about heaven, and maybe you start thinking about
what are the reasons why in your own life, you
haven't set your mind on things above. You're not looking
forward to what that real life is going to be. Hey,
here's a newsflash for you. Whether you're stuck in traffic
(09:44):
or getting dinner on the table. This is not as
good as it gets. Back after this. The questions that
matter most often come while watching a sunset, or listening
to music, or looking into the night sky. That's why
I've chosen. Have you ever wondered, as this month's truth tool?
(10:06):
God draws us to himself through a sense of awe
and wonder, and this book will help you discover how.
As for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when
you'd give a gift of any amount in the market?
Call 877 58. That's eight 7758 or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall.
S4 (10:29):
I am going to hell. I'm not here to stay.
I'm going to heaven. I am going someday.
S1 (10:47):
Amen and amen. Are you ready? Do you know for
sure that you're going someday? Matt McCall is with us.
He serves as a pastor of Edgewood Church in Nashville, Tennessee,
and he joins us to talk about his book, remember Heaven.
Meditations on the World to Come for life in the meantime.
And I really love that subtitle, by the way. So, Matt,
anybody who's ever written knows a little something about the
(11:08):
fact that it's not unlike a pregnancy. You'll have to
relate to this figuratively, not literally. But there's about nine
months gestation and then the labor and delivery and and
your role as a pastor, you know, why would you
write about heaven? And I can hear someone saying, oh,
come on, it's part of the job. He's a pastor.
He's got to talk about heaven. Yeah, but that's not
(11:28):
the same as deciding that you're going to put some
sweat equity into writing and praying over a book that
tells you to remember heaven and write with deep, rich
theology about the subject of heaven. So why did you
choose to do that?
S3 (11:42):
Well, I think the answer to that question goes back
a little bit to what we talked about a moment ago.
Not the Christian nationalism part, but the fact that I,
I got my start in my adult life, in the
academic world, studying church history and studying especially the work of.
Before I got into the to the Christian nationalism lane,
I studied a lot of the work of the Puritans,
both in England and in America, and they've just had
(12:03):
a very deep effect on me and my spirituality and
my approach to my ministry as a pastor. So when
I moved into, uh, serving as a pastor and weakly
looking to preach to my people from the scriptures, you know,
I knew what my job was. My job is to
is to try to help these friends in the lives
they're living. See why Jesus is such wonderfully good news,
(12:24):
why he's relevant to everything. And coming with that background
of of knowing about the way the Puritans did that,
it just became really clear to me early on that
that they saw things that I didn't naturally see, and
that I didn't think people around me naturally saw that
in their culture, it was way more common to talk
about death, the end of life, the inevitable end of
(12:47):
every human life and the world to come. It was
just a central part of how they saw Jesus and
saw themselves and saw a faithful Christian life. And so
I think seeing the contrast there helped me to to
start focusing on this early on in my ministry. And
then it's just become so clear as I've worked my
(13:07):
way through preaching series and one book of the Bible
after another, that the scriptures is just, are just relentlessly
oriented toward the world to come. It's over and over
and over. They take us back there as if it
matters for how we're living now. And I think it
maybe a shorter way to answer the question you asked,
why write a book on this is that I think
(13:28):
the hope of heaven is absolutely crucial for the Christian life,
but that it's very, very difficult to hold on to
and to to work into the details of life. And
I thought it would be good for me and hopefully
good for my friends if I just spend a lot
of time trying to make that connection.
S1 (13:44):
So let me underscore what you write in the book
that underscores what you just said. And let me start
with the first point, because I think it's so salient.
And this is the idea that in the 21st century,
Americans in particular, I don't know if you can say
this globally. I would challenge that. Probably our brothers and
sisters in some of the persecuted countries have a different
perspective on this. But we turn tail. We try to
(14:05):
avoid death at any cost. Cosmetics, you know, take this pill,
sleep on this mattress, get this done to your face. Uh,
you read about billionaires who are doing everything to prolong life.
Scientific studies that will make sure that we can outlive death. Thanks,
but no thanks. By the way, for the record on
that one. And so when you go back to the Puritans,
because death was so prescient, it was there all the time.
(14:28):
They couldn't avoid thinking about it. So part of the
the downside of postmodernism is, is that we fail to
recognize that death is a reality, and we don't talk
about it in polite company. In fact, it should be
avoided at all costs. Why is that not a perspective
that the Christian should strike?
S3 (14:45):
Well, because we want to see the beauty of Jesus
everywhere we can, and it shines most brightly against the backdrop,
the dark backdrop that he came to, to, to shine into.
Like he came here to give us a hope that
death can't crush. He came to redeem us from every
consequence of sin. And death is one of the clearest
(15:06):
and most ever present consequences that we can see in
this life right now. So whenever we hide from death,
we're also we're also avoiding the goodness of the good
news and avoiding our chance to see the power of
Jesus at work all around us. Um, it's also just,
I guess, a simpler, straightforward way to say it is
that the scriptures don't avoid it. Yes. So frequently talk
(15:29):
about death as a as a basic human experience, as
basic as birth and as breathing and as eating and
sleeping like this is this is something we go through.
So it's relevant, um, whether we want to talk about
it or not. And, and so is Jesus in a
way that's much deeper than we often realize.
S1 (15:49):
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm picking up on three
points you make in the introduction of the book, because
I think it really serves as a great foundation to
our conversation. The second point that you make about, after
you talk about the fact that we are more insulated
to death than we were in the past, you talk
about the fact that we're also more secular. How does
that impact our perspective on heaven?
S3 (16:10):
Yeah, I mean, here I'm drawing from some philosophers who
have helped me to see things I probably wouldn't have
seen otherwise, even about myself and how I work in
the world. So when the philosopher Charles Taylor talks about
a secular age, he doesn't necessarily he's not necessarily meaning
that everybody, everywhere denies that God exists, but that on
an everyday basis, we don't always have to acknowledge Him
(16:34):
and His existence in order to basically make it through
life that. And we don't have to assume him in
the same way that earlier generations would have had to.
Part of that is, is that so much of our
life is lived through technology. You know, for example, I
am pretty insulated from the weather patterns when it comes
to my dinner table. I don't think often about praying
for rain so that I can eat eat blueberries. I
(16:57):
can get those blueberries delivered to my door in February
if I want to because of, you know, marvels of
modern technology that have that have detached us a bit from,
you know, our, our dependence on every good gift that
comes from above. So in that way, and in many others,
we live surrounded by human achievements that can so often
(17:17):
keep our eyes on on ourselves and what we bring
to the table and blind us to the fact that
we depend on him for everything, and to a world
that's beyond what we see here and now.
S5 (17:27):
Mm.
S1 (17:28):
Doctor Matthew McCullough writes in his book remember Heaven about
the many ways in which getting a right perspective on
heaven has such a profound impact on the way we're
living today. Let's get into some of that when we return.
By the way, the book's right there in my info page,
so you can click on through and learn how to
get your copy. Much more on the topic of heaven
right after this. Doctor Matthew McCullough is with us, pastor
(18:00):
of Edgewood Church, Edgefield church part. Let me get it right.
Edgefield Church in Nashville, by the way. He's the author
of the new book, remember Heaven meditations on the World
to Come for life. In the meantime. So you spend
so much of the book just talking about what happens
when we get the right perspective on heaven, and absolutely
the impact it has on our temporal existence here on earth,
(18:23):
which I think is tremendous. And that's why I wanted
to spend a little bit of time talking about why
the believers I get what the world doesn't talk about it.
They don't even know if there is a heaven or
if they're going there. But for those of us who
profess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed
in our heart that God has raised him from the dead,
we should be thinking about heaven. So why does thinking
about heaven? Before I go to some of the ways
(18:43):
in which you break this down in the book. Why
do you think it's designed that? When we do think
about heaven, it impacts the way we live? You know,
I've heard someone some people love this saying. Some people
hate it. Uh, you're so heavenly minded. You're no earthly good.
Is that true?
S3 (18:56):
I really don't think so. I assume it could be
true because that is something that someone could struggle with.
Being blind to the needs of the world around them,
or calloused to the to what love calls for. Uh,
and when we see our neighbors in need. But I
think it's more of a caricature than, uh, than anything. Um,
(19:16):
I think that if you follow what the scriptures say
about heaven and look not only at what is being
said about the world to come, but how that hope
is being used, what you'll see is that is that
the New Testament authors are using that hope to help people. Now,
it's always applied to life and the struggles that we
(19:37):
face in the meantime. Um, so, you know, it certainly isn't.
The hope of heaven certainly isn't reducible to any sort
of this worldly good that it produces. It is bigger
than that. It reminds us that the most important things
about life in this world, as it is now, are
how those things relate to the world to come. Uh,
(19:59):
but it the perspective of what God has promised for
our future absolutely affects our lives now, both in giving
us the the grace that we need to to carry
the burdens that come with life in the world as
it is, and also the freedom from thinking. We've got
to squeeze every bit that we can possibly squeeze out
of life now. I think it frees us to be more, uh, more, uh,
(20:20):
sacrificial in our service to other people and more willing to,
to do without so that others can have what they need.
If you get it Properly, it should make you more
useful 100%.
S1 (20:31):
I think part of it check me if I'm wrong
on this, but it seems to me, Matt, that one
of the reasons that we struggle with thinking about heaven
is because we don't understand it. It's not attractive enough
to us to want it. You know, we're still stuck
with cherubic angels on clouds, and we're not sure if
our dog's going to be there. And we slap all
(20:52):
of these things on the nature and characteristics of heaven.
And most people would say, no, like the poet said,
you know, life is too much with me. I don't
really want to think about heaven because I don't know
what I don't know. I know what I know, and
I like it here, and I've got a full experience here.
So I'm not really worried about heaven. Walk me through that.
Because if that's our perspective, maybe we're more hung up
(21:12):
on the geography and the color of the streets than
we are. The fact that we are going to be
in the presence of Jesus. I don't get all the
other stuff. All I know is I will be with him.
Everything else can be a big surprise. I will be
with him. Isn't that the overarching issue here?
S3 (21:28):
It absolutely is, Janet. I mean, there is so much
the Bible doesn't tell us about the world to come
that we would probably like to know if we could
have every question answered. What it does say very, very
clearly is that at the center of that world has
got himself. It's all in revelation 21. What makes heaven
a world of more than we could ever imagine here
in this life? And what makes heaven a world of
(21:48):
no more. Of all the things that bring us down
in this life. Grief and pain and suffering and death.
What makes heaven what it is, is the fact that
God will dwell with us there, that he will be
our light, that the whole earth will be full of
his glory. And we'll see it. See him as He is.
So yeah, I think in Colossians three, Paul sees heaven
(22:10):
as an extension of our longing for heaven, rather our
focus on it as an extension of our love for Jesus.
Our deep desire to be where he is is what
keeps our minds set above, uh, and longing for the
day when he's revealed to us. Uh, so, yeah, I mean,
it's it's a struggle because we, we can see so
vividly all the things this world offers us. We can't
(22:31):
see yet what Jesus has promised. It takes effort. That's why,
I mean, one of the things I say in the
book is that, you know, I think Paul has to
tell us to set our mind on things above precisely
because if he doesn't tell us, we won't do it.
You don't have.
S1 (22:43):
To. Exactly.
S3 (22:44):
I don't have to tell my kids to finish their
ice cream. I do have to tell them to finish
their cauliflower, because the one thing is better for them,
but doesn't seem that way to them. Um, and so
I think Paul expected us to have the struggle that
we have and wanted us to to rise to it
for our good, because it's worth it.
S1 (23:03):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. So to someone and I want
to linger on this point here, because the conversation will
ultimately be moot for most people if they don't understand
what heaven is all about. So we have these wonderfully
interesting conversations that are more imagination than they are theology
about what heaven is going to be like. And we
the minute we get into that, it tells me right
(23:24):
out of the gate that we failed to recognize who
heaven is about, not where or what it's about, but
who it's about. And I don't know about all the
other stuff. I'm I mean, there are things when I go, what?
No rain. I love the rain. What? No oceans. I
love the oceans. And then I think, wait, that's not
what it's about. You're going to be with Jesus, the
unconditional lover of your soul, who knew you before you
(23:46):
breathed your first. He's going to know everything about you,
and I don't. I think I understand, love. I haven't
got a clue what love is until I'm standing in
his presence. And it makes all of those other things interesting,
though they may be, but it diminishes them purposely and
I think necessarily. Am I right or wrong?
S3 (24:04):
I think you're exactly right. But I think another way
to say it is that whatever goodness comes to us
in these things that we want, like the beauty of
the weather, the beauty of of a person that we
love to look at, the joy of a good meal
with friends, whatever good things are coming through. Those experiences
now are just very faint shadows of what it is
to be in his presence. That is his goodness we're
(24:26):
tasting in his world right now.
S1 (24:27):
Exactly. But only.
S3 (24:28):
In part. And then we'll know in full.
S1 (24:30):
Wow. Right out of Scripture to Doctor Matthew McCullough is
with us. His new book is called remember Heaven meditations
on the World to Come for life. In the meantime,
that's the right now, back after this.
S6 (24:44):
In the song of.
S1 (24:57):
Ministry is never a solo effort. You know my voice
because I'm on the radio every day. Look a little
further and you'd see right into the homes of listeners
just like you. Partial partners who give a monthly gift
and make this ministry available. Become a member of the
team today by becoming a partial partner. Call eight 7758
or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot. Oh.
S7 (25:28):
I wanna run on greener pastures. I wanna dance on
higher hills I wanna drink from sweeter waters. In the
misty morning chill. And my soul is getting restless. For
the place where I belong I can't wait to join
(25:52):
the angels Unchained my Heaven song.
S1 (25:59):
Doctor Matthew McCullough is with us. Serves as a pastor
of Edgefield Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Before joining with Edgefield,
he helped to plant Trinity Church near Vanderbilt University and
served as a pastor there for a decade. He and
his wife first moved to Nashville for grad school at Vanderbilt,
where he completed his Ph.D. in American religious history. If
you're just joining us, download the podcast because there's a
(26:21):
fascinating story on his dissertation. Easy peasy. Just go to
where you find your favorite podcasts. And it's in the
market with Janet Parshall. So he's authored three books, including
Remember Death The Surprising Path to Living Hope, and the
One We're Talking About Today, remember Heaven, meditations on the
World to Come for life. In the meantime. So I
want to go back to one of the bound fours
(26:43):
that you talk about in the book. But I was
thinking about something you said just before the break, Matt,
which is so interesting because I don't know what it means.
That's great. I'm thrilled there are mysteries and unanswered questions,
because that means there's so many parts of the symphony.
I still get to hear that they're open phrases, and
that's I'm thrilled I have an eternity and I've got
about just that many questions, so it's going to be
(27:03):
a perfect time frame. But when Paul ascends to the
third heaven, whatever that was, whatever that looks like, he's
given this instruction. You don't tell anybody why? Why does
God tell Paul? Don't tell him.
S3 (27:16):
I don't know if you ever figure that out. You
give me a call, and I'd love to hear what
you found. I have no idea. And I'll be honest,
I should probably stop it right there.
S1 (27:28):
Don't you think? I mean, using my sanctified imagination for
a minute. And I'm not doing sloppy eisegesis here. I'm
not going beyond the pale of Scripture by any means
of the imagination. But it seems to me that maybe
it's because God knew our time was temporal, and there
were things we had to do here, and there were
things we had to learn here before we'd be in
his presence. And maybe then we would just be almost
(27:51):
catatonic in the temporal because we couldn't wait to get
to heaven. In other words, if it's as glorious and
it must be because, I mean, I'm sure that Paul
wanted to say, but he couldn't say. It must be
so magnificent that we just mere mortals with our Mickey
Mouse minds, we couldn't even handle it, it seems to me.
S3 (28:08):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And
whatever his reasoning is, I mean, I think often of
Psalm 131. And the image that we have of David
there as this one, who doesn't occupy himself with things
too great and too marvelous for him, and therefore lives
as a baby on his mom, who's been weaned and
is calm and quiet and trusting. Uh, so I'm just
(28:31):
I'm trying to redirect myself back to Psalm 131 when
I when I really want to know what Paul saw
that I haven't seen yet.
S1 (28:37):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. Well, in your book does a wonderful
job in helping us do just that. So, for example,
you write about, if we get the right perspective on heaven,
it really helps us with the battle that we wage
every moment of our lives as believers. Speaking of Brother Paul.
And that's dealing with the subject of sin. How does
getting a right perspective and understanding the eternality of my
(28:59):
destination versus the temporal nature of where I am right now?
How in the world does that intersect with the struggle
that I have with the spirit and the flesh all
day long?
S3 (29:08):
Yeah, well, here I'm drawing, especially from what John says
in First John chapter three, and I'm drawing from a
lot of my own experience and experience that I've seen
my friends have with ongoing struggles with sin. And here
it's this I don't know if there is a stronger,
higher barrier to victory over ongoing sin than hopelessness. When I, uh,
(29:30):
I'm not I use this anecdote in the book. I'm
not a handyman. Um, not by a long shot. My
wife does most of that sort of thing and around
our house. And if she can't handle it, I've got
a long list of friends that I call. And I
gave up a long time ago. I used to try
to to to figure things out on my own until
I realized I just don't think I have it in
(29:51):
me for whatever reason. And here's how I learned that
I would try. I would watch a YouTube video. I
would do the things that I was told to do,
and every single time it would take longer than I
thought it was going to take. It was going to
take more money than I expected it to take. I
was probably not going to do it right, and in
the end, I was just going to end up calling
my friend to come over and and fix it anyways.
So I just learned it was better to fail quick
(30:12):
than to fail slow. Fail the easy way, not the
hard way. I know how this ends. I have seen
one after another of my friends struggle in the same
way with sin. I felt it in my own heart.
Where we get up, we try again. We fall again.
We get up. We try again, we fall again. And
you can get this sense that I know where this ends.
Why not just go ahead and give in? Why not
(30:34):
fail the easy way instead of the hard way? And
in first John chapter three, John tells us our future,
that he says we don't know exactly what we're going
to be. Uh, when, when, um, when he appears, because
he's not yet appeared. But we do know that when
he appears, we'll be like him. Whatever he's like, we'll
(30:55):
be like. And he says it's because we'll see him
as he is. And he says, everyone who thus hopes
in him purifies himself as he is pure hope purifies.
And here's what I think he means. I think he
means that, um, that that what will ultimately end our
battle with sin is a vision of the beauty of
(31:17):
God that we cannot look away from. Mm. What what
what keeps us falling to sin now is that God's
competition looks a lot prettier than it really is. And
our heads are constantly being turned by one after another.
God's substitute. We always are tempted to worship creatures instead
of the creator. And part of that is we just
can't see Him as He is right now. When we do,
(31:40):
that battle's over. That war is over because nothing will
ever be able to turn our head from what we
see when we see him. And that will renovate us
from the inside out. Because loving him as he is
with all of our heart, finally, with all of our
heart and all of our soul and mind, um, there
won't be any room left for sin. And I think
(32:01):
what John is saying is you can go ahead and
start getting that purification started now by hoping in him
that I know how this ends. This ends with me
purified by the power and grace and beauty of God.
So why not get up and start fighting again, even
if I've just fallen yesterday? I know how this ends.
It ends in glory.
S1 (32:21):
Amen. Wow. So let me take a. I'm so glad
that you went to one John three two, because that
verse is overwhelming. It really takes your breath away when
you start thinking about it. And there's a question that
I have and and this is why what you write about,
I think, is so true and right and authentic, because
I know that someday I'm going to behold him face
(32:42):
to face. I am in the writing of first John
three two. I am going to see him as he is.
And Matt, I got to tell you, I keep thinking
my first response is I'm going to fall on the
floor to my face in humiliation because I feel like
at that moment when I see him as he truly is,
and I hope I'm wrong on this, that I'm going
(33:02):
to be so aware of the sins I didn't confess
or committed in a cavalier, reckless fashion. because now I'm
standing in front of one who is pure and perfection now,
and there's no condemnation in that verse. That's me superimposing
on that. But walk me through that. How do I
get around that fact? Because I'm just thinking when I
stand with my righteousness, being like filthy rags in front
(33:25):
of him and I'm finally beholding him, it's like, how
do I not realize, oh, what a mess I am.
S3 (33:32):
Well, I think, I think if we had to stand
there and in our own righteousness, then all we would
have is filthy rags. But the beautiful hope of the
gospel is that on that day we stand in Jesus's righteousness.
And right now we claim that by faith and not
by sight. When we look at ourselves now, we see
all that we bring to the table. And it's depressing.
(33:52):
But on that day, we will finally see ourselves as
God sees Jesus. We will see what he sees when
he looks at us, united to Jesus by faith. I
think this is Philippians three is where Paul says, like
I once had a whole long list of on my resume.
Accomplishments that made me stand out from the crowd. But
now I look at those things and I say, rubbish.
(34:14):
They're all worthless. I count them as loss for the
sake of knowing Jesus, the power of his resurrection and
being found in him. I think that's a reference to
the day you're talking about Janet, where you stand before
him and see him as he is on that day.
Paul doesn't want to stand there in his own righteousness,
but only in the righteousness of Jesus. And that, uh,
(34:34):
that means instead of staying there in shame, like we'll
finally be done with it forever. Because when we look
at ourselves, we'll see what God sees. Yes, that's that's
the beauty of his own son.
S1 (34:44):
Doesn't that help also for us to keep a short list,
to realize that that imputed righteousness I have now, I'm
not going to get it there. I have it now.
I have the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. And
when I profess my faith in Jesus Christ, I was
imputed with his righteousness. So that dovetails to me to
the idea. Now, therefore, there is no condemnation for those
(35:05):
in Christ Jesus. It doesn't give me a license to sin.
It reminds me of the power of forgiveness.
S3 (35:10):
Amen. Exactly. Exactly.
S1 (35:14):
So I love the fact and I want to get
into this, and I'm going to come up to a break,
because I think this is such an important point for
so many believers. And we've struggled with it since the
day we walked out of the garden. And you start
with a three word sentence that is profound and truthful.
Humans crave meaning, and what follows from that declaration is
the fact that if we crave meaning, we look for
(35:34):
meaning in what we experience as human beings. And how
in the world do you find meaning in suffering? And
then even worse, the Bible says we're invited to join
in the fellowship of his suffering. You know, I'm not
sure that club has a whole lot of people who've
decided to sign up and join it, but there's an
invitation there. So I want to dig into this issue
(35:54):
of suffering, because here's what I know declaratively, because of
the promises in his perfect word, I'm not going to
have it in heaven. There is going to be no
more suffering. I can't wait for the fact that every
tear will be wiped from every eye. So suffering is
not a part of that experience. It is here. It
is part of what happens when free will brings about
the wages of sin. But I want to know when
(36:15):
I suffer now these, in the words of Scripture, momentary
in light, afflictions. How do I persevere? Press on, knowing
that I'm heaven bound. I think this is a key issue,
and one that Doctor Matt McCullough discusses eloquently in his
new book, remember Heaven meditations on the World to Come
for life. In the meantime, back after this.
S7 (36:38):
No, I can't wait to join the Angels and Save
my Heaven song.
S1 (36:59):
Doctor Matt McCullough is with us. He's the author of
the book remember Heaven Meditations on the world to come.
For life in the meantime. So going right back to
the question I put out just before the break, which
is this. Trying to find meaning in suffering. Again, talk
to me about the bigger picture. How does having a
heavenly perspective, remembering heaven, help me to persevere and endure
(37:19):
with the temporal sufferings of this life?
S3 (37:23):
Well, I think one of the main challenges of the
Christian life is to connect what we're going through to
where we're going, especially when what we're going through feels
like death. Um, I draw a lot from Second Corinthians
four on this, where Paul is writing, we don't lose heart.
It's a bold claim when you hear it in light
of what he says next. Our outer self is wasting away.
(37:44):
That is bleak. This body and everything about our life
under the reign of death, um, continues to to waste away.
But in the meantime, he says, our inner self is
being renewed day by day. He says this light, momentary
affliction is doing work. It is preparing for us an
eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. So what I
(38:07):
think Paul is doing there is showing us that it
isn't simply that we have to get through hard times
here on earth so that we can enjoy heaven eventually.
That one day it will all be gone. It's precisely
through the suffering that we experience now that Heaven will
be what it is to us in the end, and
(38:28):
we are going to suffer. We need to know what
it's for. We need to know what makes it meaningful.
What's the story in which our suffering sits? One of
the one of the books. It's a secular book that
I that I draw from in the chapter to show
why this meaning making is so important for us is
that it's also basic to our our humanity, like humans do. This.
My dog doesn't doesn't sit around asking questions about his experiences.
(38:51):
He just operates on instinct. When humans suffer, they want
to know why. And Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for
meaning really helped me on this. He. He was a
psychologist who who lived through Nazi concentration camp and used
his experience in the concentration camp to try to continue
his research into what humans are like, what makes them tick,
(39:11):
how do they get through hard things? He basically just asked,
why did some people give up and die in the
camp and others pursue, even when everything was taken away
from them except their capacity for pain? Um, and he
his conclusion was that the the difference was whether or
not they had something to hope for beyond the camp,
something for which their suffering, um, something that their suffering would,
(39:35):
would produce for them or provide for them could be a,
a person they wanted to get back to. It could
be work they longed to do that they hadn't finished yet,
but they needed something that would keep them going so
that they know this day of pain gets me to
that thing on the other side. So apart from that,
hopelessness is lethal. Um, and, you know, I think he
(39:57):
he spoke better than he realized into the perspective of
the New Testament that Paul knows. He writes what he
writes in Second Corinthians four, because he knows we need
to know what this is all for. This suffering is
not wasted any more than Christ's suffering on the cross
was wasted. The Lord is working in it to prepare
us a weight for a weight of glory that we
wouldn't have otherwise.
S1 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking when you were talking
to why, every time you read the word hope in
the scriptures, you should circle it. Because it to me,
there's a hint there of the eternal perspective. Hope never fails.
And going to Frankel's very astute observations about why some
people survived and some people didn't. There's a reason why
(40:38):
we're told, in fact, that when you read that passage
about suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character, character, hope and hope
never fails. There is a delineation out in this growth
experience that we have when we're suffering. And isn't it interesting?
It points to hope because maybe it isn't completely eradicated
right now, but the hope is someday. And the knowledge
is that someday it will be completely eradicated. It's a
(41:00):
perfect segue to talk about suffering, to talk about death. Um,
I have said so many times in my life, Matt,
that I do not know how anybody stands at an
open grave without Jesus. That has to be. And I
don't know, because I've never had that experience. And thanks
be to God. But I don't know how you even
live through the experience of burying a loved one without
(41:21):
Christ in us being the hope of glory. Talk to
me about that.
S3 (41:25):
I totally agree, I cannot imagine it, and it breaks
my heart to think of people having to face that
without Jesus, because no one escapes grief in this life.
The death, the death rate is sitting firmly at 100%,
and it will until Jesus comes back. So you don't
(41:46):
have a choice about whether you grieve. You do have
a choice about whether to grieve with or without hope. Um,
and it goes back to something we talked about earlier
when we. When we choose death avoidance, when we choose
to try to to to hold grief back. As long
as possible rather than, than open our eyes to it,
(42:07):
even before the moment of crisis comes, then we are
holding ourselves back from the context in which Jesus shines
through so beautifully. Because. Because he. I think of John
11 often, where he basically orchestrates the scene at Lazarus's
tomb by waiting to go and heal him while he
was still alive, so that they might believe that's what
(42:29):
he says. In other words, you need to see the
grip of death on those you love for. For you
to see what I want you to see about me.
That I am the resurrection and the life. That I am.
The one you can hope for, that I am the
only one who can solve this problem. First look at death.
And then through those tears, look at me. Um. And
I think that's what what Paul is doing in first
(42:52):
Thessalonians four when he talks about to those who are grieving.
He urges them not to grieve as those who have
no hope. One of these days he's coming back. And
those of you who have lost, who died in faith,
they will not be left behind. You can see that
you will see them again and and will be caught
up together with them. And we will forever be with
(43:12):
the Lord, centered on him, worshiping him forever. Um, he
directs them to grieve and assumes that they will, so
that their hope activates and gets sweeter and sweeter in
the meantime.
S1 (43:26):
Exactly. You talk about the fact that your grandmother bought
A Grief observed by C.S. Lewis. Tell me that story
because I thought it was precious.
S3 (43:34):
Yeah. One of my it was one of my most
precious books in my library. It's a book that she
gave to me, um, that she had bought sometime in
the 80s. I think she had lost a son who
was killed, uh, fell asleep while he was driving home
from college and and died in the late 70s. And
this book, A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis, is just
(43:55):
full of her underlines and her markings in the margins
and under passages that really helped her. You could tell
from reading it that she read for survival, not just
for for intellectual curiosity and what she says next to
a passage where Lewis says, you have to grieve in
order to realize that the rope you're holding onto is
strong enough to hold you. She underlined that passage over
(44:18):
and over again and said, the rope held me. The
rope really held me. He was who he said he
would be.
S8 (44:23):
She couldn't have known that, apart from her deep grief,
she saw there and only there that Christ is trustworthy.
S2 (44:30):
Hmm.
S1 (44:31):
Better note to end this conversation on Matthew. It's a
marvelous book. Thank you. Thank you for challenging and encouraging
and equip us to remember heaven. That's exactly what your
book does. It's rich theologically, and it's so encouraging, quite frankly,
so necessary. So friends, get your copy of remember Heaven.
Thank you Matt. Thanks, friends. We'll see you next time.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
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(01:26):
When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
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(01:46):
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S2 (01:58):
When we all get to heaven. What a day of
rejoicing that will be. When we all see Jesus, we'll
sing and shout the victory.
S1 (02:17):
Do you believe that? Do you believe that with all
your heart? Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
Guess what? That's a big clue. We're going to spend
the hour talking about heaven. Oh, really? When's the last
time you thought about heaven? Okay. You're coming home from work.
You're in that busy hour trying to get dinner on
the table. The kids are running around. Life is too
much with me. As the poet says, that's the last
thing you're doing is thinking about heaven. And yet, if
(02:40):
we have a perspective on heaven, if we look forward
to that day when we will be absent from the
body and present with the Lord. Just talking among ourselves
here for a minute, do you think? Do you just
think it might have an impact on the way we
would live, the choices we would make now, the things
we would do. And why is it that we, in
(03:00):
our oh so busy lives here in the 21st century,
just don't take the time to think about heaven? Well,
that's what we're going to do this entire hour, and
we're going to spend the hour with Doctor Matthew McCullough,
who serves as pastor of Edgewood Church in Nashville, Tennessee.
Before joining with Edgefield, he taught to. He helped to
plant Trinity Church near Vanderbilt University and served as pastor
(03:21):
there for a decade. He and his wife first moved
to Nashville for graduate school at Vanderbilt, where he got
it completed. PhD in American religious history. That I bet
was fascinating. He's the author of three books, including Remembered
Death The Surprising Path to Living Hope, and remember Heaven,
the book we're talking about today, meditations on the World
to Come for life in the meantime. He also writes
(03:44):
on occasion for nine marks in the Gospel Coalition. So, Matt,
the warmest of welcomes. Thank you so very much for
being here. I got to go back to the PhD.
So if the PhD was in American religious history in
curious minds. Want to know what was your dissertation about?
S3 (03:59):
Oh, do you really want to know, though, Janet? Because
I'm so happy to talk to you about this. It
has been a long time since anyone has asked me
that question. Okay. So I studied American religious history and
focused my research on studying Christian nationalism among American pastors
during the Spanish American War of 1898. Now you tell
(04:19):
me how much more you want to know about that.
S1 (04:22):
Well, obviously, I bet the first thing that went through
people's minds was there listening all across the country is
they're thinking, I thought American or Christian nationalism was something
that we talk about now, but certainly had no manifestations
in the early years of our short 250 year history.
And yet, with pinpoint specificity, you go exactly to an
(04:43):
era where this was taking place. How did it manifest
itself then?
S3 (04:47):
Well, this was a war, the Spanish-American War. It was
a war in which America, for the very first time,
fought beyond continental borders for the justification of freeing someone
else who was under an oppression they couldn't escape on
their own. So it got its start with concern about
how the Spanish were treating the Cubans and what was
(05:08):
at the time, a Spanish colony. And then a lot
of the action took place, actually, on the other side
of the world, in the Philippines, another Spanish colony that
was taken by the American Navy during during the war,
Puerto Rico was also involved in Guam. And so it
was a different kind of war than people had had
much time to to think about or reflect on before. And, um,
(05:31):
the pastors had a lot to say about it. They
used columns in their religious newspapers. They used their their
weekly sermons oftentimes to talk about the that justification and
what it means to be a country called to, to
set other people free. Uh, you know, it was, uh,
probably because it was unprecedented. I think it stirred up
a lot more rhetoric than, than maybe would have would
(05:53):
have been present otherwise, even though the war didn't last
very long. Just four months total of fighting. Uh, it
it was very, very prominent in, in the nation's press
and in their pulpits for that whole time.
S1 (06:06):
Absolutely fascinating.
S3 (06:07):
They ended up coming up with a lot of arguments
that would be very influential in the First World War,
which obviously was very much more influential than the Spanish
American War overall. So.
S1 (06:17):
But a precursor, an important precursor.
S3 (06:19):
Exactly.
S1 (06:20):
Wow. So a couple of things come to mind when
we talk about Christian nationalism today. It immediately connotes a
negative response. The way when you talk about what was
happening in this war and you say that it worked
its way into the pulpits. Was it how did that
manifest itself in what the pastors were saying at that time?
Were they encouraging our involvement? Were they going to the
(06:41):
transcendence of trying to help liberate a captive people? Exactly.
How did it was it maybe a better way to
ask the question is, did it have the same sort
of shadows of what we see today, or is it different?
S3 (06:53):
I'm sure that the answer is both. In some ways
it's similar, but there was definitely some uniquenesses to that time.
In particular, the fact that that for the very first time,
Americans were trying to get their minds around fighting for
people who weren't Americans, ostensibly to to give them the
freedom that Americans enjoy. I mean, there was a lot
of focus among Christian pastors on things like the Good
(07:15):
Samaritan parable that was applied to the nation's foreign policy
for the first time that I know of during this war. Um,
even some even went as far as to appeal to,
you know, Christ on the cross, laying down his life
to save others. Uh, to say that, you know, this
nation ought to to lay down its lives for the
sake of those who can't save themselves so close to
(07:36):
our national borders. And, you know, I mean, I think my.
You didn't ask me this, Janet, but I'm just going
to say, I think my, my read on those guys
at that time was that their hearts were, for the
most part in the right place. Whatever was going on
in the highest echelons of power, I think most of
the guys I read thought this was good for the
(07:57):
world because it would be good for for neighbors they
hadn't met yet. Um, I do see it as a
tragic tale, though, because I think where they went wrong
was in assuming that we'd be able to intervene in
those countries without the influence of sin on ourselves, you know.
And what happened was that there were there were rebellions
against American involvement after the Spanish were gone. And sadly,
(08:19):
we ended up using a lot of the same tactics
to put down the rebellion that that the Spanish had
used that got us up in arms over it all
in the first place. And, uh, so I think there's
there's a lot to like about some of the rhetoric
and then a lot to be cautious about, because we
do want to assume that sins in all of us
and we have to be careful. And, um. Yeah.
S1 (08:42):
Fascinating. Are you going to get it published other than
just submitting it? Are you going to publish it?
S3 (08:46):
It was published around the time that I made my
transition from the Academy into the church. A wonderful book
series by the University of Wisconsin Press included it for
publication in their series, so you can find it everywhere.
Books are sold.
S1 (09:00):
Fabulous. Well, I point that out for the history buffs,
and there are many in our audience who would like
to read about that. But what you just told us, Matt,
is such a perfect support of the axiom that says
don't who? Those who study don't study history are doomed
to repeat it. So what were the positives? What were
the negatives, and what can we learn from that particular
chapter of history? I think that's absolutely fascinating, and I'm
so glad I asked. We could spend the rest of
(09:22):
the hour talking about that topic. I find it fascinating,
but when we come back, we are going to talk
about heaven, because I think that's a really good thing
to think about. Matt's got some ideas about why we
don't think about heaven, and maybe you start thinking about
what are the reasons why in your own life, you
haven't set your mind on things above. You're not looking
forward to what that real life is going to be. Hey,
here's a newsflash for you. Whether you're stuck in traffic
(09:44):
or getting dinner on the table. This is not as
good as it gets. Back after this. The questions that
matter most often come while watching a sunset, or listening
to music, or looking into the night sky. That's why
I've chosen. Have you ever wondered, as this month's truth tool?
(10:06):
God draws us to himself through a sense of awe
and wonder, and this book will help you discover how.
As for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when
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Call 877 58. That's eight 7758 or go to in
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S4 (10:29):
I am going to hell. I'm not here to stay.
I'm going to heaven. I am going someday.
S1 (10:47):
Amen and amen. Are you ready? Do you know for
sure that you're going someday? Matt McCall is with us.
He serves as a pastor of Edgewood Church in Nashville, Tennessee,
and he joins us to talk about his book, remember Heaven.
Meditations on the World to Come for life in the meantime.
And I really love that subtitle, by the way. So, Matt,
anybody who's ever written knows a little something about the
(11:08):
fact that it's not unlike a pregnancy. You'll have to
relate to this figuratively, not literally. But there's about nine
months gestation and then the labor and delivery and and
your role as a pastor, you know, why would you
write about heaven? And I can hear someone saying, oh,
come on, it's part of the job. He's a pastor.
He's got to talk about heaven. Yeah, but that's not
(11:28):
the same as deciding that you're going to put some
sweat equity into writing and praying over a book that
tells you to remember heaven and write with deep, rich
theology about the subject of heaven. So why did you
choose to do that?
S3 (11:42):
Well, I think the answer to that question goes back
a little bit to what we talked about a moment ago.
Not the Christian nationalism part, but the fact that I,
I got my start in my adult life, in the
academic world, studying church history and studying especially the work of.
Before I got into the to the Christian nationalism lane,
I studied a lot of the work of the Puritans,
both in England and in America, and they've just had
(12:03):
a very deep effect on me and my spirituality and
my approach to my ministry as a pastor. So when
I moved into, uh, serving as a pastor and weakly
looking to preach to my people from the scriptures, you know,
I knew what my job was. My job is to
is to try to help these friends in the lives
they're living. See why Jesus is such wonderfully good news,
(12:24):
why he's relevant to everything. And coming with that background
of of knowing about the way the Puritans did that,
it just became really clear to me early on that
that they saw things that I didn't naturally see, and
that I didn't think people around me naturally saw that
in their culture, it was way more common to talk
about death, the end of life, the inevitable end of
(12:47):
every human life and the world to come. It was
just a central part of how they saw Jesus and
saw themselves and saw a faithful Christian life. And so
I think seeing the contrast there helped me to to
start focusing on this early on in my ministry. And
then it's just become so clear as I've worked my
(13:07):
way through preaching series and one book of the Bible
after another, that the scriptures is just, are just relentlessly
oriented toward the world to come. It's over and over
and over. They take us back there as if it
matters for how we're living now. And I think it
maybe a shorter way to answer the question you asked,
why write a book on this is that I think
(13:28):
the hope of heaven is absolutely crucial for the Christian life,
but that it's very, very difficult to hold on to
and to to work into the details of life. And
I thought it would be good for me and hopefully
good for my friends if I just spend a lot
of time trying to make that connection.
S1 (13:44):
So let me underscore what you write in the book
that underscores what you just said. And let me start
with the first point, because I think it's so salient.
And this is the idea that in the 21st century,
Americans in particular, I don't know if you can say
this globally. I would challenge that. Probably our brothers and
sisters in some of the persecuted countries have a different
perspective on this. But we turn tail. We try to
(14:05):
avoid death at any cost. Cosmetics, you know, take this pill,
sleep on this mattress, get this done to your face. Uh,
you read about billionaires who are doing everything to prolong life.
Scientific studies that will make sure that we can outlive death. Thanks,
but no thanks. By the way, for the record on
that one. And so when you go back to the Puritans,
because death was so prescient, it was there all the time.
(14:28):
They couldn't avoid thinking about it. So part of the
the downside of postmodernism is, is that we fail to
recognize that death is a reality, and we don't talk
about it in polite company. In fact, it should be
avoided at all costs. Why is that not a perspective
that the Christian should strike?
S3 (14:45):
Well, because we want to see the beauty of Jesus
everywhere we can, and it shines most brightly against the backdrop,
the dark backdrop that he came to, to, to shine into.
Like he came here to give us a hope that
death can't crush. He came to redeem us from every
consequence of sin. And death is one of the clearest
(15:06):
and most ever present consequences that we can see in
this life right now. So whenever we hide from death,
we're also we're also avoiding the goodness of the good
news and avoiding our chance to see the power of
Jesus at work all around us. Um, it's also just,
I guess, a simpler, straightforward way to say it is
that the scriptures don't avoid it. Yes. So frequently talk
(15:29):
about death as a as a basic human experience, as
basic as birth and as breathing and as eating and
sleeping like this is this is something we go through.
So it's relevant, um, whether we want to talk about
it or not. And, and so is Jesus in a
way that's much deeper than we often realize.
S1 (15:49):
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm picking up on three
points you make in the introduction of the book, because
I think it really serves as a great foundation to
our conversation. The second point that you make about, after
you talk about the fact that we are more insulated
to death than we were in the past, you talk
about the fact that we're also more secular. How does
that impact our perspective on heaven?
S3 (16:10):
Yeah, I mean, here I'm drawing from some philosophers who
have helped me to see things I probably wouldn't have
seen otherwise, even about myself and how I work in
the world. So when the philosopher Charles Taylor talks about
a secular age, he doesn't necessarily he's not necessarily meaning
that everybody, everywhere denies that God exists, but that on
an everyday basis, we don't always have to acknowledge Him
(16:34):
and His existence in order to basically make it through
life that. And we don't have to assume him in
the same way that earlier generations would have had to.
Part of that is, is that so much of our
life is lived through technology. You know, for example, I
am pretty insulated from the weather patterns when it comes
to my dinner table. I don't think often about praying
for rain so that I can eat eat blueberries. I
(16:57):
can get those blueberries delivered to my door in February
if I want to because of, you know, marvels of
modern technology that have that have detached us a bit from,
you know, our, our dependence on every good gift that
comes from above. So in that way, and in many others,
we live surrounded by human achievements that can so often
(17:17):
keep our eyes on on ourselves and what we bring
to the table and blind us to the fact that
we depend on him for everything, and to a world
that's beyond what we see here and now.
S5 (17:27):
Mm.
S1 (17:28):
Doctor Matthew McCullough writes in his book remember Heaven about
the many ways in which getting a right perspective on
heaven has such a profound impact on the way we're
living today. Let's get into some of that when we return.
By the way, the book's right there in my info page,
so you can click on through and learn how to
get your copy. Much more on the topic of heaven
right after this. Doctor Matthew McCullough is with us, pastor
(18:00):
of Edgewood Church, Edgefield church part. Let me get it right.
Edgefield Church in Nashville, by the way. He's the author
of the new book, remember Heaven meditations on the World
to Come for life. In the meantime. So you spend
so much of the book just talking about what happens
when we get the right perspective on heaven, and absolutely
the impact it has on our temporal existence here on earth,
(18:23):
which I think is tremendous. And that's why I wanted
to spend a little bit of time talking about why
the believers I get what the world doesn't talk about it.
They don't even know if there is a heaven or
if they're going there. But for those of us who
profess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed
in our heart that God has raised him from the dead,
we should be thinking about heaven. So why does thinking
about heaven? Before I go to some of the ways
(18:43):
in which you break this down in the book. Why
do you think it's designed that? When we do think
about heaven, it impacts the way we live? You know,
I've heard someone some people love this saying. Some people
hate it. Uh, you're so heavenly minded. You're no earthly good.
Is that true?
S3 (18:56):
I really don't think so. I assume it could be
true because that is something that someone could struggle with.
Being blind to the needs of the world around them,
or calloused to the to what love calls for. Uh,
and when we see our neighbors in need. But I
think it's more of a caricature than, uh, than anything. Um,
(19:16):
I think that if you follow what the scriptures say
about heaven and look not only at what is being
said about the world to come, but how that hope
is being used, what you'll see is that is that
the New Testament authors are using that hope to help people. Now,
it's always applied to life and the struggles that we
(19:37):
face in the meantime. Um, so, you know, it certainly isn't.
The hope of heaven certainly isn't reducible to any sort
of this worldly good that it produces. It is bigger
than that. It reminds us that the most important things
about life in this world, as it is now, are
how those things relate to the world to come. Uh,
(19:59):
but it the perspective of what God has promised for
our future absolutely affects our lives now, both in giving
us the the grace that we need to to carry
the burdens that come with life in the world as
it is, and also the freedom from thinking. We've got
to squeeze every bit that we can possibly squeeze out
of life now. I think it frees us to be more, uh, more, uh,
(20:20):
sacrificial in our service to other people and more willing to,
to do without so that others can have what they need.
If you get it Properly, it should make you more
useful 100%.
S1 (20:31):
I think part of it check me if I'm wrong
on this, but it seems to me, Matt, that one
of the reasons that we struggle with thinking about heaven
is because we don't understand it. It's not attractive enough
to us to want it. You know, we're still stuck
with cherubic angels on clouds, and we're not sure if
our dog's going to be there. And we slap all
(20:52):
of these things on the nature and characteristics of heaven.
And most people would say, no, like the poet said,
you know, life is too much with me. I don't
really want to think about heaven because I don't know
what I don't know. I know what I know, and
I like it here, and I've got a full experience here.
So I'm not really worried about heaven. Walk me through that.
Because if that's our perspective, maybe we're more hung up
(21:12):
on the geography and the color of the streets than
we are. The fact that we are going to be
in the presence of Jesus. I don't get all the
other stuff. All I know is I will be with him.
Everything else can be a big surprise. I will be
with him. Isn't that the overarching issue here?
S3 (21:28):
It absolutely is, Janet. I mean, there is so much
the Bible doesn't tell us about the world to come
that we would probably like to know if we could
have every question answered. What it does say very, very
clearly is that at the center of that world has
got himself. It's all in revelation 21. What makes heaven
a world of more than we could ever imagine here
in this life? And what makes heaven a world of
(21:48):
no more. Of all the things that bring us down
in this life. Grief and pain and suffering and death.
What makes heaven what it is, is the fact that
God will dwell with us there, that he will be
our light, that the whole earth will be full of
his glory. And we'll see it. See him as He is.
So yeah, I think in Colossians three, Paul sees heaven
(22:10):
as an extension of our longing for heaven, rather our
focus on it as an extension of our love for Jesus.
Our deep desire to be where he is is what
keeps our minds set above, uh, and longing for the
day when he's revealed to us. Uh, so, yeah, I mean,
it's it's a struggle because we, we can see so
vividly all the things this world offers us. We can't
(22:31):
see yet what Jesus has promised. It takes effort. That's why,
I mean, one of the things I say in the
book is that, you know, I think Paul has to
tell us to set our mind on things above precisely
because if he doesn't tell us, we won't do it.
You don't have.
S1 (22:43):
To. Exactly.
S3 (22:44):
I don't have to tell my kids to finish their
ice cream. I do have to tell them to finish
their cauliflower, because the one thing is better for them,
but doesn't seem that way to them. Um, and so
I think Paul expected us to have the struggle that
we have and wanted us to to rise to it
for our good, because it's worth it.
S1 (23:03):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. So to someone and I want
to linger on this point here, because the conversation will
ultimately be moot for most people if they don't understand
what heaven is all about. So we have these wonderfully
interesting conversations that are more imagination than they are theology
about what heaven is going to be like. And we
the minute we get into that, it tells me right
(23:24):
out of the gate that we failed to recognize who
heaven is about, not where or what it's about, but
who it's about. And I don't know about all the
other stuff. I'm I mean, there are things when I go, what?
No rain. I love the rain. What? No oceans. I
love the oceans. And then I think, wait, that's not
what it's about. You're going to be with Jesus, the
unconditional lover of your soul, who knew you before you
(23:46):
breathed your first. He's going to know everything about you,
and I don't. I think I understand, love. I haven't
got a clue what love is until I'm standing in
his presence. And it makes all of those other things interesting,
though they may be, but it diminishes them purposely and
I think necessarily. Am I right or wrong?
S3 (24:04):
I think you're exactly right. But I think another way
to say it is that whatever goodness comes to us
in these things that we want, like the beauty of
the weather, the beauty of of a person that we
love to look at, the joy of a good meal
with friends, whatever good things are coming through. Those experiences
now are just very faint shadows of what it is
to be in his presence. That is his goodness we're
(24:26):
tasting in his world right now.
S1 (24:27):
Exactly. But only.
S3 (24:28):
In part. And then we'll know in full.
S1 (24:30):
Wow. Right out of Scripture to Doctor Matthew McCullough is
with us. His new book is called remember Heaven meditations
on the World to Come for life. In the meantime,
that's the right now, back after this.
S6 (24:44):
In the song of.
S1 (24:57):
Ministry is never a solo effort. You know my voice
because I'm on the radio every day. Look a little
further and you'd see right into the homes of listeners
just like you. Partial partners who give a monthly gift
and make this ministry available. Become a member of the
team today by becoming a partial partner. Call eight 7758
or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot. Oh.
S7 (25:28):
I wanna run on greener pastures. I wanna dance on
higher hills I wanna drink from sweeter waters. In the
misty morning chill. And my soul is getting restless. For
the place where I belong I can't wait to join
(25:52):
the angels Unchained my Heaven song.
S1 (25:59):
Doctor Matthew McCullough is with us. Serves as a pastor
of Edgefield Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Before joining with Edgefield,
he helped to plant Trinity Church near Vanderbilt University and
served as a pastor there for a decade. He and
his wife first moved to Nashville for grad school at Vanderbilt,
where he completed his Ph.D. in American religious history. If
you're just joining us, download the podcast because there's a
(26:21):
fascinating story on his dissertation. Easy peasy. Just go to
where you find your favorite podcasts. And it's in the
market with Janet Parshall. So he's authored three books, including
Remember Death The Surprising Path to Living Hope, and the
One We're Talking About Today, remember Heaven, meditations on the
World to Come for life. In the meantime. So I
want to go back to one of the bound fours
(26:43):
that you talk about in the book. But I was
thinking about something you said just before the break, Matt,
which is so interesting because I don't know what it means.
That's great. I'm thrilled there are mysteries and unanswered questions,
because that means there's so many parts of the symphony.
I still get to hear that they're open phrases, and
that's I'm thrilled I have an eternity and I've got
about just that many questions, so it's going to be
(27:03):
a perfect time frame. But when Paul ascends to the
third heaven, whatever that was, whatever that looks like, he's
given this instruction. You don't tell anybody why? Why does
God tell Paul? Don't tell him.
S3 (27:16):
I don't know if you ever figure that out. You
give me a call, and I'd love to hear what
you found. I have no idea. And I'll be honest,
I should probably stop it right there.
S1 (27:28):
Don't you think? I mean, using my sanctified imagination for
a minute. And I'm not doing sloppy eisegesis here. I'm
not going beyond the pale of Scripture by any means
of the imagination. But it seems to me that maybe
it's because God knew our time was temporal, and there
were things we had to do here, and there were
things we had to learn here before we'd be in
his presence. And maybe then we would just be almost
(27:51):
catatonic in the temporal because we couldn't wait to get
to heaven. In other words, if it's as glorious and
it must be because, I mean, I'm sure that Paul
wanted to say, but he couldn't say. It must be
so magnificent that we just mere mortals with our Mickey
Mouse minds, we couldn't even handle it, it seems to me.
S3 (28:08):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And
whatever his reasoning is, I mean, I think often of
Psalm 131. And the image that we have of David
there as this one, who doesn't occupy himself with things
too great and too marvelous for him, and therefore lives
as a baby on his mom, who's been weaned and
is calm and quiet and trusting. Uh, so I'm just
(28:31):
I'm trying to redirect myself back to Psalm 131 when
I when I really want to know what Paul saw
that I haven't seen yet.
S1 (28:37):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. Well, in your book does a wonderful
job in helping us do just that. So, for example,
you write about, if we get the right perspective on heaven,
it really helps us with the battle that we wage
every moment of our lives as believers. Speaking of Brother Paul.
And that's dealing with the subject of sin. How does
getting a right perspective and understanding the eternality of my
(28:59):
destination versus the temporal nature of where I am right now?
How in the world does that intersect with the struggle
that I have with the spirit and the flesh all
day long?
S3 (29:08):
Yeah, well, here I'm drawing, especially from what John says
in First John chapter three, and I'm drawing from a
lot of my own experience and experience that I've seen
my friends have with ongoing struggles with sin. And here
it's this I don't know if there is a stronger,
higher barrier to victory over ongoing sin than hopelessness. When I, uh,
(29:30):
I'm not I use this anecdote in the book. I'm
not a handyman. Um, not by a long shot. My
wife does most of that sort of thing and around
our house. And if she can't handle it, I've got
a long list of friends that I call. And I
gave up a long time ago. I used to try
to to to figure things out on my own until
I realized I just don't think I have it in
(29:51):
me for whatever reason. And here's how I learned that
I would try. I would watch a YouTube video. I
would do the things that I was told to do,
and every single time it would take longer than I
thought it was going to take. It was going to
take more money than I expected it to take. I
was probably not going to do it right, and in
the end, I was just going to end up calling
my friend to come over and and fix it anyways.
So I just learned it was better to fail quick
(30:12):
than to fail slow. Fail the easy way, not the
hard way. I know how this ends. I have seen
one after another of my friends struggle in the same
way with sin. I felt it in my own heart.
Where we get up, we try again. We fall again.
We get up. We try again, we fall again. And
you can get this sense that I know where this ends.
Why not just go ahead and give in? Why not
(30:34):
fail the easy way instead of the hard way? And
in first John chapter three, John tells us our future,
that he says we don't know exactly what we're going
to be. Uh, when, when, um, when he appears, because
he's not yet appeared. But we do know that when
he appears, we'll be like him. Whatever he's like, we'll
(30:55):
be like. And he says it's because we'll see him
as he is. And he says, everyone who thus hopes
in him purifies himself as he is pure hope purifies.
And here's what I think he means. I think he
means that, um, that that what will ultimately end our
battle with sin is a vision of the beauty of
(31:17):
God that we cannot look away from. Mm. What what
what keeps us falling to sin now is that God's
competition looks a lot prettier than it really is. And
our heads are constantly being turned by one after another.
God's substitute. We always are tempted to worship creatures instead
of the creator. And part of that is we just
can't see Him as He is right now. When we do,
(31:40):
that battle's over. That war is over because nothing will
ever be able to turn our head from what we
see when we see him. And that will renovate us
from the inside out. Because loving him as he is
with all of our heart, finally, with all of our
heart and all of our soul and mind, um, there
won't be any room left for sin. And I think
(32:01):
what John is saying is you can go ahead and
start getting that purification started now by hoping in him
that I know how this ends. This ends with me
purified by the power and grace and beauty of God.
So why not get up and start fighting again, even
if I've just fallen yesterday? I know how this ends.
It ends in glory.
S1 (32:21):
Amen. Wow. So let me take a. I'm so glad
that you went to one John three two, because that
verse is overwhelming. It really takes your breath away when
you start thinking about it. And there's a question that
I have and and this is why what you write about,
I think, is so true and right and authentic, because
I know that someday I'm going to behold him face
(32:42):
to face. I am in the writing of first John
three two. I am going to see him as he is.
And Matt, I got to tell you, I keep thinking
my first response is I'm going to fall on the
floor to my face in humiliation because I feel like
at that moment when I see him as he truly is,
and I hope I'm wrong on this, that I'm going
(33:02):
to be so aware of the sins I didn't confess
or committed in a cavalier, reckless fashion. because now I'm
standing in front of one who is pure and perfection now,
and there's no condemnation in that verse. That's me superimposing
on that. But walk me through that. How do I
get around that fact? Because I'm just thinking when I
stand with my righteousness, being like filthy rags in front
(33:25):
of him and I'm finally beholding him, it's like, how
do I not realize, oh, what a mess I am.
S3 (33:32):
Well, I think, I think if we had to stand
there and in our own righteousness, then all we would
have is filthy rags. But the beautiful hope of the
gospel is that on that day we stand in Jesus's righteousness.
And right now we claim that by faith and not
by sight. When we look at ourselves now, we see
all that we bring to the table. And it's depressing.
(33:52):
But on that day, we will finally see ourselves as
God sees Jesus. We will see what he sees when
he looks at us, united to Jesus by faith. I
think this is Philippians three is where Paul says, like
I once had a whole long list of on my resume.
Accomplishments that made me stand out from the crowd. But
now I look at those things and I say, rubbish.
(34:14):
They're all worthless. I count them as loss for the
sake of knowing Jesus, the power of his resurrection and
being found in him. I think that's a reference to
the day you're talking about Janet, where you stand before
him and see him as he is on that day.
Paul doesn't want to stand there in his own righteousness,
but only in the righteousness of Jesus. And that, uh,
(34:34):
that means instead of staying there in shame, like we'll
finally be done with it forever. Because when we look
at ourselves, we'll see what God sees. Yes, that's that's
the beauty of his own son.
S1 (34:44):
Doesn't that help also for us to keep a short list,
to realize that that imputed righteousness I have now, I'm
not going to get it there. I have it now.
I have the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. And
when I profess my faith in Jesus Christ, I was
imputed with his righteousness. So that dovetails to me to
the idea. Now, therefore, there is no condemnation for those
(35:05):
in Christ Jesus. It doesn't give me a license to sin.
It reminds me of the power of forgiveness.
S3 (35:10):
Amen. Exactly. Exactly.
S1 (35:14):
So I love the fact and I want to get
into this, and I'm going to come up to a break,
because I think this is such an important point for
so many believers. And we've struggled with it since the
day we walked out of the garden. And you start
with a three word sentence that is profound and truthful.
Humans crave meaning, and what follows from that declaration is
the fact that if we crave meaning, we look for
(35:34):
meaning in what we experience as human beings. And how
in the world do you find meaning in suffering? And
then even worse, the Bible says we're invited to join
in the fellowship of his suffering. You know, I'm not
sure that club has a whole lot of people who've
decided to sign up and join it, but there's an
invitation there. So I want to dig into this issue
(35:54):
of suffering, because here's what I know declaratively, because of
the promises in his perfect word, I'm not going to
have it in heaven. There is going to be no
more suffering. I can't wait for the fact that every
tear will be wiped from every eye. So suffering is
not a part of that experience. It is here. It
is part of what happens when free will brings about
the wages of sin. But I want to know when
(36:15):
I suffer now these, in the words of Scripture, momentary
in light, afflictions. How do I persevere? Press on, knowing
that I'm heaven bound. I think this is a key issue,
and one that Doctor Matt McCullough discusses eloquently in his
new book, remember Heaven meditations on the World to Come
for life. In the meantime, back after this.
S7 (36:38):
No, I can't wait to join the Angels and Save
my Heaven song.
S1 (36:59):
Doctor Matt McCullough is with us. He's the author of
the book remember Heaven Meditations on the world to come.
For life in the meantime. So going right back to
the question I put out just before the break, which
is this. Trying to find meaning in suffering. Again, talk
to me about the bigger picture. How does having a
heavenly perspective, remembering heaven, help me to persevere and endure
(37:19):
with the temporal sufferings of this life?
S3 (37:23):
Well, I think one of the main challenges of the
Christian life is to connect what we're going through to
where we're going, especially when what we're going through feels
like death. Um, I draw a lot from Second Corinthians
four on this, where Paul is writing, we don't lose heart.
It's a bold claim when you hear it in light
of what he says next. Our outer self is wasting away.
(37:44):
That is bleak. This body and everything about our life
under the reign of death, um, continues to to waste away.
But in the meantime, he says, our inner self is
being renewed day by day. He says this light, momentary
affliction is doing work. It is preparing for us an
eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. So what I
(38:07):
think Paul is doing there is showing us that it
isn't simply that we have to get through hard times
here on earth so that we can enjoy heaven eventually.
That one day it will all be gone. It's precisely
through the suffering that we experience now that Heaven will
be what it is to us in the end, and
(38:28):
we are going to suffer. We need to know what
it's for. We need to know what makes it meaningful.
What's the story in which our suffering sits? One of
the one of the books. It's a secular book that
I that I draw from in the chapter to show
why this meaning making is so important for us is
that it's also basic to our our humanity, like humans do. This.
My dog doesn't doesn't sit around asking questions about his experiences.
(38:51):
He just operates on instinct. When humans suffer, they want
to know why. And Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for
meaning really helped me on this. He. He was a
psychologist who who lived through Nazi concentration camp and used
his experience in the concentration camp to try to continue
his research into what humans are like, what makes them tick,
(39:11):
how do they get through hard things? He basically just asked,
why did some people give up and die in the
camp and others pursue, even when everything was taken away
from them except their capacity for pain? Um, and he
his conclusion was that the the difference was whether or
not they had something to hope for beyond the camp,
something for which their suffering, um, something that their suffering would,
(39:35):
would produce for them or provide for them could be a,
a person they wanted to get back to. It could
be work they longed to do that they hadn't finished yet,
but they needed something that would keep them going so
that they know this day of pain gets me to
that thing on the other side. So apart from that,
hopelessness is lethal. Um, and, you know, I think he
(39:57):
he spoke better than he realized into the perspective of
the New Testament that Paul knows. He writes what he
writes in Second Corinthians four, because he knows we need
to know what this is all for. This suffering is
not wasted any more than Christ's suffering on the cross
was wasted. The Lord is working in it to prepare
us a weight for a weight of glory that we
wouldn't have otherwise.
S1 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking when you were talking
to why, every time you read the word hope in
the scriptures, you should circle it. Because it to me,
there's a hint there of the eternal perspective. Hope never fails.
And going to Frankel's very astute observations about why some
people survived and some people didn't. There's a reason why
(40:38):
we're told, in fact, that when you read that passage
about suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character, character, hope and hope
never fails. There is a delineation out in this growth
experience that we have when we're suffering. And isn't it interesting?
It points to hope because maybe it isn't completely eradicated
right now, but the hope is someday. And the knowledge
is that someday it will be completely eradicated. It's a
(41:00):
perfect segue to talk about suffering, to talk about death. Um,
I have said so many times in my life, Matt,
that I do not know how anybody stands at an
open grave without Jesus. That has to be. And I
don't know, because I've never had that experience. And thanks
be to God. But I don't know how you even
live through the experience of burying a loved one without
(41:21):
Christ in us being the hope of glory. Talk to
me about that.
S3 (41:25):
I totally agree, I cannot imagine it, and it breaks
my heart to think of people having to face that
without Jesus, because no one escapes grief in this life.
The death, the death rate is sitting firmly at 100%,
and it will until Jesus comes back. So you don't
(41:46):
have a choice about whether you grieve. You do have
a choice about whether to grieve with or without hope. Um,
and it goes back to something we talked about earlier
when we. When we choose death avoidance, when we choose
to try to to to hold grief back. As long
as possible rather than, than open our eyes to it,
(42:07):
even before the moment of crisis comes, then we are
holding ourselves back from the context in which Jesus shines
through so beautifully. Because. Because he. I think of John
11 often, where he basically orchestrates the scene at Lazarus's
tomb by waiting to go and heal him while he
was still alive, so that they might believe that's what
(42:29):
he says. In other words, you need to see the
grip of death on those you love for. For you
to see what I want you to see about me.
That I am the resurrection and the life. That I am.
The one you can hope for, that I am the
only one who can solve this problem. First look at death.
And then through those tears, look at me. Um. And
I think that's what what Paul is doing in first
(42:52):
Thessalonians four when he talks about to those who are grieving.
He urges them not to grieve as those who have
no hope. One of these days he's coming back. And
those of you who have lost, who died in faith,
they will not be left behind. You can see that
you will see them again and and will be caught
up together with them. And we will forever be with
(43:12):
the Lord, centered on him, worshiping him forever. Um, he
directs them to grieve and assumes that they will, so
that their hope activates and gets sweeter and sweeter in
the meantime.
S1 (43:26):
Exactly. You talk about the fact that your grandmother bought
A Grief observed by C.S. Lewis. Tell me that story
because I thought it was precious.
S3 (43:34):
Yeah. One of my it was one of my most
precious books in my library. It's a book that she
gave to me, um, that she had bought sometime in
the 80s. I think she had lost a son who
was killed, uh, fell asleep while he was driving home
from college and and died in the late 70s. And
this book, A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis, is just
(43:55):
full of her underlines and her markings in the margins
and under passages that really helped her. You could tell
from reading it that she read for survival, not just
for for intellectual curiosity and what she says next to
a passage where Lewis says, you have to grieve in
order to realize that the rope you're holding onto is
strong enough to hold you. She underlined that passage over
(44:18):
and over again and said, the rope held me. The
rope really held me. He was who he said he
would be.
S8 (44:23):
She couldn't have known that, apart from her deep grief,
she saw there and only there that Christ is trustworthy.
S2 (44:30):
Hmm.
S1 (44:31):
Better note to end this conversation on Matthew. It's a
marvelous book. Thank you. Thank you for challenging and encouraging
and equip us to remember heaven. That's exactly what your
book does. It's rich theologically, and it's so encouraging, quite frankly,
so necessary. So friends, get your copy of remember Heaven.
Thank you Matt. Thanks, friends. We'll see you next time.
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