July 21, 2025 • 44 mins
This hour, we open the phones and let you ask any questions on the topic of spiritual warfare. Can the Devil read our thoughts? Can demons occupy objects? Is holy water necessary to drive out a demon? Are certain words required to rid a person of a demon? Get the answers to questions like these and more on today's broadcast. Call in early as the phones are lit the entire hour!
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
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(01:45):
the Market with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (02:04):
The belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield
of faith. And the helmet of salvation.
S1 (02:26):
Hey, there's your equipment. Suit up. Welcome to In the
Market with Janet Parshall. We're talking about spiritual warfare. I
bet you knew that already, right? Because you heard the song.
Who do you think our guest is? If you said
doctor Carol Payne, good for you. Because he is our teacher.
He's been walking us through this topic for quite some time.
You're going to need this. Aside from the warfare uniform,
you just got heard. Just got heard. Thank you, English
(02:46):
teacher you just heard about. You're going to need this. 483675.
Any question you have on spiritual warfare? And I'm going
to give the formal introduction to my friend Doctor Carl
Payne in a minute, but I'm going to start with
the story. I've said this before. I'll say it again
and I mean it. I wish it was difficult to
(03:08):
find stories on the occult. It is anything but. It
is rising in this country. It is rising in the UK,
it is rising among a higher demographic. I give you
Hollywood every time. Every time they've got these streaming platforms
and they tell you about the upcoming movies that are coming. Oh,
the overwhelming majority of them are horror films. Why is
there an attraction? I do not get that. I don't
(03:29):
play around with any of that stuff by any stretch
of the imagination, and I think you need to understand
how serious it is. So this is a piece that
showed up in The Guardian, which is a British newspaper,
and it says that there was an arrest on gun possession.
This happened in Queens, New York, in November of 2021.
Believe me, the story updates follow me with this. It's
(03:49):
led the FBI to a pedophilic, satanic Extortion cult that
has victimized dozens, not hundreds if not hundreds of minors,
according to law enforcement documents, court records and sources who
have knowledge about this investigation. So the law enforcement apparently
discovered the organization known as 764. I thought it was 666,
(04:10):
but maybe they couldn't add an A range of aliases.
While investigating alarming social media posts made by Angel Almeida,
a 23 year old resident of Astoria, Queens. Then, on
the 12th of September, 2023, the FBI ends up issuing
a public warning about 764, noting that the group is, quote,
deliberately targeting minor victims on publicly available messaging platforms to
(04:36):
extort them into recording or live streaming acts of self-harm
and producing child sexual abuse material. Mom and dad, are
you fighting for your families? The, uh, apparently the advisory, uh,
is the first formal mention of 764 by any American
law enforcement agency. It's not fringe. It's not conspiracy theory.
(04:56):
You got the FBI identifying this group. Okay. So all
the people go, oh, all those crazy conspiracy theories about
demonic cults. Yeah. Well, there is a conspiracy. It started
in the garden, and he's still very active today. Just
one more thing on this repulsive story. But to understand
that you're dealing with darkness here. The group apparently targets
kids between the ages of eight and 17, and particularly
(05:18):
focuses on young people of color, youth identified as LGBTQ
plus or youth who struggle with mental health issues all
vulnerable categories. Researchers familiar with this particular group indicate the
group's members cultivate ties with minors through a wide range
of platforms. Are you ready for this, mom? Either in
wildly popular games like Roblox, I'm probably saying that wrong.
(05:40):
I don't game or gaming communication platforms like Discord and Twitch,
as well as curated playlists on the streaming services. SoundCloud.
The group's main form of communication is on telegram. Are
these ringing bell mom, which has long been the platform
of choice for many extremists? Now I have to tell
you that the Telegraph, which, by the way, is not
(06:02):
a conservative publication by any stretch of the imagination, said
it's a platform for far right extremists. I'm sorry, is
Satan part of the right? I didn't realize he had
a political affiliation, but that's the telegraph. You got to
give him a pass as big as a football field because, uh,
they're just generally confused. The point of my sharing this
with you is when you get the FBI identifying these cults,
(06:24):
it's not conspiracy. But as people of the word, do
we think it's a conspiracy? I'm sorry. Wait. Do you
hear that? I think it's a lion. I think he's growling. Yeah,
I think he's still prowling, seeking whom he may devour.
That's why we have these conversations. Because he's real now,
Carl and I. And you don't have a spirit of fear. Shouldn't. Anyway,
we weren't given that power, love and of a sound mind.
(06:45):
That's what we got instead. But I'll tell you what.
If you want to play life on the in the
balls of your feet. And you understand that our there,
our conflicts come from the world, the flesh and the devil.
You got to give equal time to all three and
understand that he is real. And we're going to talk
about spiritual warfare so that you can suit up, get
up and get out there without a spirit of fear.
Now ta da! The formal invitation, interaction, introduction of my
(07:09):
friend Doctor Carl Payne, pastor, teacher, speaker, author, former NFL
chaplain with the drum roll, please Seattle Seahawks. He's on
staff at the end. Wasn't that nice? You know that
Packers are always my team, but I. I give this
man due deference because he poured two decades into that
team and they're the better for it on and off
the field I digress. He's currently on staff at Antioch
(07:31):
Bible Church at Redmond, Washington. His primary role there is
serving as the pastor of Leadership Development and Discipleship Training.
He has written many books. If you've not gone through
his transferable cross training program, you should. We broke it
all down. We went through the entire series of books
on this program. It's all in our archives. But he's
written what I think is one of the best books
out there, and you do too, because so many of
(07:51):
you have this book now. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians
Demonization and Deliverance, and it was updated and reprinted again
this year. Doctor Karl Payne, pull up a chair. Make
yourself comfortable. So what do you think about the FBI
literally identifying a group? It's no conspiracy. Followers of Jesus
knew that from day one, but ooh, how awful are
(08:12):
groups like this?
S3 (08:14):
Well, first, young lady, I must say good afternoon, or
it wouldn't be me. You'd have to wonder who's the
imposter on the other side.
S1 (08:22):
Thank you, sir, I feel comfortable now.
S3 (08:24):
Okay, there you go. Secondly, I know I may get
in trouble for this one, but what you shared, there's
so much to attack. I feel like a mosquito on
a nudist colony or something, you know? I mean, there
is so much there. But here's the thoughts that went
through my mind initially. I thought, first, we're asleep. I
(08:45):
think that first Corinthians. Excuse me, first Timothy four, uh,
make it so abundantly clear as we come. Closing to
wrap up. And I think we are, that we're going
to be, uh, enticed. To believe even disobedient spirits. I
think the second Timothy three is the same kind of message.
And I'll draw a conclusion to that when we get
(09:07):
off the music.
S1 (09:09):
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the sound of a pro.
Doctor Carl Payne (877) 548-3675. Again, it's a horrible story, but
I think it's imperative that we understand exactly who our
enemy is and how he destroys innocent people and how
he comes to kill. Right. This is the stuff we
read in Scripture, but I can look at that and say, yeah, well,
(09:30):
here's what here's my comeback to that. Greater is he
that is in us than he that is in the world.
I want to hear more on Doctor Calpains take on
that story. And best of all, your calls (877) 548-3675. And
we'll take him right after this. The world needs hope
(09:54):
and we have the greatest news ever told. But how
do we share it effectively? That's why I've chosen Why
Jesus by Ray comfort is this month's truth tool. Transform
your approach to evangelism through step by step guidance and
real life examples. As for your copy of Why Jesus,
when you give a gift of any amount in the market,
call 877. 58 that's eight 7758 or go to. In
(10:16):
the market with Janet Parshall. You know, when you think
about it, it really is spiritual warfare. Operative word. I
open with that repulsive story reported in the telegram talking
(10:38):
about this pedophilic satanic cult that the FBI has been
tracking and there are hundreds of victims as a result
of this. So this is you know, that's why I
take umbrage when Hollywood decides to make it a movie.
You pay your $18 for your movie ticket now. Yeah,
I know, and that doesn't count the popcorn so that
you can feed into the idea that somehow, um, we
(11:01):
can create a more voracious appetite for all things Puritan
horror related. I just don't get it. And I think
for The believer, it's a wake up call, because in
so doing, we minimize exactly the threat that the enemy poses.
Defeatable though he is, it's still minimizes the threat. So
we're taking your calls at (877) 548-3675. And I put this
(11:21):
story in front of you, Carolyn, you said there was
a whole lot there. And, brother, I know you got
more to say, so please have at it.
S3 (11:27):
Well, a couple of thoughts, but I want to make
one recommendation first. And I think I recommended this book
last year. And I don't know that I've talked about
it since, but I still think Fred Dickerson's book, Believe
It came out in 24 dangers of the Spirit World.
I really believe it's a short book. It's an easy read.
And he says he wrote it saying to Christians, it's
(11:49):
time to wake up. How can we not see what's
going on around us? And I thoroughly enjoyed that. So
if I didn't give that an adequate, you know, pop,
for something that I think is worth reading, I believe
that one's worth reading. Janet. I really like it. And
he's just saying it's he's not saying why is the
world so worldly. He's saying, Christians, are we looking at
(12:12):
what's going on around us and what are we doing?
And if I took it back to the, you know,
the illustration that you give and all, I would say, okay,
I live in a world according to Ephesians two one
and two that says, Satan's on a leash, but this
is his playground. I live at a time when Paul writes,
as I said, the end times, that it's going to
(12:34):
increase the demonic deception. I look at people that are
vulnerable when you say, uh, you know, whether it's over
gender identification or just age 8 to 17 or whatever
you said. I mean, what a wonderful group to go
after because most of them have not had the time
to understand what are what are biblical convictions and truth about.
(12:58):
And and everything is about visual and video. And the
other side is satanic, demonic stuff glamorized. And it's like,
hook them all. They're young. I am dealing regularly with
demonized Christians that when all command to know when they
took advantage of it, it was when they were young
they didn't know how to fight back. And then by
the time they get older, it's like that just becomes
(13:20):
normal for them. Voices, thoughts, ideas, you know, talking to
them and trying to guide them because Jesus doesn't love you, etc..
So I go makes perfect sense to me. And I
thought what I was thinking about Janet, at least in part,
I thought. And here we as a church, now I'm
going to make a generalization. It's not always true. And
I love Christians. If they stand on the Word of God,
(13:43):
I love them if they're Christians because we're family. But
I'm saying I will support Christians. As I've said before,
I'm not really all hung up over denominational ties. I
care what's in the bottle, not the label. As I've
said before, most people don't know what the labels mean
anymore anyway. And if they've got the right salvation, the
right Jesus and the right holy book, we're on the
(14:04):
same side. But I think of how many times I've
just responded just a few minutes ago to an email
from someone who is basically saying to me, if you're
a Christian, you're protected. You don't have to worry about
this stuff. And I know Scripture and I just say
thank you for the arrogant, uninformed, naive response. Look what's
going on around you, even among Christians. And wake up.
(14:28):
But that's my paradigm. That's what I believe. That's what
I've always been taught. Then I look over on the
other side. You know, I feel, I think in my opinion.
I know scripture doesn't quite say it, but this is
what resonates with my heart. And this is what my
people have taught me. And and you have a circus.
So on one hand, nothing is demonic. On the other hand,
(14:49):
everything is demonic. You get people that are trying to
be sane and sensible in the middle going, do I
run with the arrogant group on one side? Do I
run with the spiritually naive group on the other side?
Or do I just plant myself in the middle and say, well,
I really don't know, and I don't want to look
embarrassed and I don't want to have someone because of
association attacking me. So I'll just pretend like it's not there.
(15:14):
And that way I don't get hooked on either side
of that. And and hey, as long as I read scripture,
love Jesus, and memorize the Bible, I'll be just fine.
And and I say it's common sense. I thought of this.
I don't know if this will tie in, but I
thought of our city. Janet used to be something beautiful
that when people would say, I'd like to come up
for in a vacation and see it, I'd say great.
(15:36):
Maybe you could show us some things in downtown Seattle. Great.
I just recently told someone, you know, one of my relatives,
I said, you don't want to be in downtown Seattle.
It's a pit. And you end up. You end up going. Listen,
we have free drug stations, free heroin. Police can't get involved.
And then we wonder why more people get involved with drugs.
(15:58):
And I'm going. Huh? Let me think about that one
and see if I can figure it out. So I'm
saying we live at a time when Scripture says as
things get closer to the end, that's subjective, but I
still believe we're there. I didn't used to say that.
I used to fight against that. When I see things
going on on TV, etc. even Christians sometimes dividing some
(16:19):
of the spirits. Like I said before, I want to
be a Christian medium. Unbelievable. You know, when you see
things like that going on and then you see the
Christians wanting to fight, you know, pull out their sabers
Sabres over, is it? No involvement or everything? Well, and
then the fear of association and I go, we are asleep,
(16:42):
we're asleep and adults can get taken down by it
and fooled us. But kids are even easier because at
least there's some kind of filter when we're older. And
we think the answer is, well, if you don't talk
about it, it'll go away. Where does that work? Where
does that work?
S1 (17:00):
Yeah, exactly. Well said. Thank you for that, Carl. So
when we come back, I'll go right to the phones
and you can ask Doctor Carl Payne, this marvelous teaching
pastor who has written, I think, one of the best
books on the topic. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization
and Deliverance. You can ask him any question. You've got. 87754836758775483675.
(17:23):
And don't forget, if you don't yet have a copy
of this book, you should get one. You can get
it by going to in the market with Janet Parshall.
Click on that red box that says Program details and audio,
takes you over to the information page, and you can
click through to get your copy of the book back
after this.
S4 (17:42):
Helmet of salvation.
S2 (17:58):
Battlefield. Without a sword. Without a shield. I take my
sword and shield each day when I kneel down and
humbly pray.
S1 (18:14):
We are talking about spiritual warfare with Doctor Carl Payne,
who's written the book Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance.
We turn now to your calls at 675. Roger, I
welcome you from Florida. Thanks for stopping by. Your question
for Doctor Payne, please.
S5 (18:35):
Yeah. Good afternoon. I was wondering, can witchcraft be sent
through the telephone?
S1 (18:42):
Mm.
S3 (18:45):
Um, I think I would respond this way, Roger. I
think I would say that if the supernatural is actually involved.
And remember, you've got people that profess to be Christians
that aren't. You've got people that profess to be Satanists
that aren't, etc.. Um, in other words, because someone wears
a label doesn't make it true. But if you're dealing
(19:07):
with someone that actually knows what they're doing and they're
actually involved with spirits, spirits are are certainly not limited
to just, you know what, what can be done physically.
So if someone said can can curses or such like that,
can that pass through, uh, you know, and it can
(19:28):
abuse inanimate objects be used. Uh, can it be done supernaturally?
I would say. Sure. In other words, it's not it's
not limited to to simply having to be in a
physical presence anymore. If a Christian wants to pray that
God would get involved with someone and prays for them
over the phone. Do I think, well, since I'm praying
(19:49):
over the phone, God doesn't hear that and the Holy
Spirit wouldn't be involved, I go. He's not limited to
are you? You know, one on one. Well, I'm suggesting
that that limitation, uh uh, is demons are no more
limited by physical contact than, you know, the Holy Spirit
would be limited in our prayers and such. So can
(20:13):
it be real? Yes. Is it always real? No.
S1 (20:17):
And I thank you, Roger, so much for being a
part of the conversation. (877) 548-3675. Nancy in Illinois. Thanks for
being here. Your question please.
S6 (20:27):
Hi. I would like to know what can I say
or do to help the church acknowledge that these demonic
happenings are real. Because when I approach people, they say,
oh yeah, that's a tough one and they don't offer
any help. What can I do to get help and
(20:48):
to let other people acknowledge that this is real?
S3 (20:51):
Well, this may sound kind of trite, but I'll tell
you the first two things that hit me when you
say that. And by the way, I appreciate what you're asking.
And I appreciate people wanting, uh, more and more to
to understand. I've told Janet I've had schools, graduate schools, seminaries,
churches inviting me to come in to speak, which I
(21:12):
still enjoy doing that 20, 30 years ago were just
embarrassed by the topic. So there has been some movement forward.
But I would say this, I would say, number one,
live a godly life so that you're taken seriously. And
I would say, number two, know scripture because if I
don't live a godly life and then if I say
I feel in my heart or Scripture says somewhere, most
(21:36):
people that consider themselves anyways dialed in with their Christian
faith are going to go, what in the world? I mean,
you you want to you want to alert me to
something that you say it needs to be looked at.
Why would I take you seriously? So I'm saying, sometimes
if you have a godly walk and, you know, Scripture
(21:58):
and and I don't know all the questions people are
going to ask, and there's many questions I'm sure I
don't have answers to. I've never I've always said with
Janet on this, I'll answer any question as long as
I have an answer. If I don't, I'll say, I
don't know. Uh, because we're always learning. But I'm saying
if you're someone that people know, knows Scripture in context,
(22:18):
and you walk with God and you say, we really
need to be taking a look at this. You're going
to be taking a lot more seriously than someone that
doesn't know. Scripture chases their feelings. You know, whatever is
the newest fad and someone comes up, it's like, yeah,
give it three weeks and they'll be saying something else.
So I'm sure that's not a perfect answer, but part
(22:39):
of it goes back to I worked with somebody today
who was demonized. They drove in from from another city
out of town. And one of the things I said
to him is what you're going to do, your life
is going to change. And I said, is you have
people around you. You can say, this is what happened.
Someone may believe it. Someone not. I said, do what
(23:00):
you choose. But I said, as you start walking and
responding in ways that you haven't, you're going to have
people walking up to you and saying what is going on?
Your life has so changed. And now they're asking you
because they respect you, not because they're afraid of you
or disrespecting you. So be who you're supposed to be
(23:21):
and see if we have more of a hearing than
people that are, you know, the sky is falling. And
I never know why. And after a while people just
tune them out.
S1 (23:30):
Mhm. Wow. Thank you so much Nancy for the question
I appreciate it. Carol, can I linger on this question
because Nancy, I thank you for your question. You know
how many times over the multiple years that we've had
these conversations? Carol, I've said that this topic for the
church for some is like Goldilocks. Goldilocks is porridge. It's
either too hot, they don't touch it, it's too cold.
They don't want anything to do with it, or they
(23:51):
get it just right. Praise be to God that Antioch
Bible gets it right. You're on the teaching staff and
you do this. But if it's there from Genesis to Revelation,
if we start with the understanding that the Bible doesn't
contain the Word of God, isn't that nice? It contains
the Word of God. It is the Word of God.
So if His Word talks to us about the power
of the enemy, warns us, tells us how to defeat him,
(24:13):
gives us the tools to be able to do just that.
Where do we get the right to take a magic
marker and basically cross out those parts that we don't
want to talk about. I mean, we point to the
world and say, oh, how dare you do that? Are
we doing that in the church? Or are we preaching
line upon line, precept upon precept, the whole counsel of God,
and holding fast to that which is good, including but
(24:36):
not limited to, spiritual warfare. More of your calls after this.
We live in complicated times and in the market. We're
helping you interpret complex cultural issues through the lens of Scripture.
(24:59):
Our team of partial partners is growing and to say
thank you. They receive exclusive information from me. In fact,
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yours by email. Become a partial partner today and you'll
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online to in the market with Janet Parshall. (877) 548-3675. That's
(25:23):
our number here at in the market with Janet Parshall (877) 548-3675.
Why is that important? Because you're calling in with your
questions on spiritual warfare, as we have yet again, another
great conversation with our dear friend Doctor Carl Payne, who
is pastor, teacher, speaker, author, former NFL chaplain with the
Seattle Seahawks. Uh, he is on staff at Antioch Bible
Church in Redmond, Washington. Are they not blessed to have him,
(25:45):
by the way? His primary role there is serving as
the pastor of Leadership development and discipleship training, and he's
written a book that goes right to the core of
what we're talking about. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization
and Deliverance. And as Carl noted earlier, if you were
paying attention, he said, in these latter days, because Scripture
gives us the heads up on this, we're going to
see more of this kind of stuff, not less. So
(26:07):
I am so very grateful that he updated the book
and that it was reprinted again, because we need some
clear answers on this. As I said before, Nancy pointed
this out. I don't understand why some churches aren't even
talking about it. And yet, what does the devil do? Oh,
because your church won't talk about this, won't preach on this.
The devil's just going to sit down and walk a
wide berth around your church. So that idea of we're
combating the world, the flesh and the devil doesn't apply.
(26:30):
If your pastor chooses not to talk about the devil,
they'll just talk about the world in the flesh. No,
no whole counsel of God. The word whole there is important. (877) 548-3675.
And let me go to Dennis in Illinois. Dennis, thanks
so much for stopping by. Your question for Doctor Carl Payne, please.
S7 (26:47):
Thank you. Can you guys hear me.
S1 (26:49):
Loud and clear. Thank you.
S7 (26:51):
Okay, great. Um, I came out of the charismatic movement,
Derek Prince, the Holy Spirit teaching mission, and all of
that emphasis on demons back in the 70s. My question
is now, if thank God, I become reformed through R.C.
Sproul and all those wonderful guys. But anyway, um, how
did you feel about the legitimacy of deliverance ministries that
(27:15):
seemed to put that above, sharing the gospel and personal
and ongoing sanctification, ala John Owen from the Puritan group.
So that's my question. Are they how do you view.
There's so many of them. These deliverance ministries, as I said,
(27:36):
seem to bypass the gospel and ongoing personal sanctification.
S3 (27:43):
Um, well, my brother, I can appreciate very much what
you're saying, and I would respond this way. There's a
reason in the book that I wrote on this that
I did, or articles that I say I've never hung
out a shingle that says Exorcist in, you know, pay
your nickel and come on in. My primary work has
(28:04):
been at this church for the last 30 some years.
Transferable discipleship. I work through lesson by lesson on what
are essentials of the Faith. What are Apologetical responses to
common questions? What is involved in leadership? And I would
suggest that anybody who makes ministry all about one aspect
(28:27):
of ministry doesn't make them wrong in their passion for
that particular ministry. But I think it's certainly incomplete. And
I would say something like this. See if it helps,
you know, where I'm coming from. I would say when
I have churches that say we're all about evangelism, I'd
say that's that's too bad. Uh, you know, John 1516
(28:47):
says we're supposed to bear fruit, but then we're supposed
to make sure that our fruit can remain, which means
they need to get saved, but they need to get trained.
But I don't see that any more incongruous than someone
says we're all about training. I would say, well, somewhere
you got to get them saved. Uh, you know, I
had you mentioned reform. I'm not anti-reform I'm not reform
in my theology, but I certainly have read John Owen.
(29:10):
I've read B.B. Warfield. I've read John Gill, I've read
John Calvin. You know, I've got most of those in my.
Many of those in my fabulous writers. But if someone
thinks that the end of Christian theology is with, you know,
Reformation and covenant theology, I would say it's part of it. Uh,
it's certainly not all of it. So I'm saying, even
(29:31):
if it's all about sanctification, no it isn't. It's all
about reformed theology. No it isn't. It's all about dispensational theology.
No it isn't. It's all about end times. No it isn't.
So I would I mean, I think I'd be in
agreement with you when I see someone. But it's not
just this deliverance. You know, I have people say it's
all about spiritual gifts. No, it's not. It's all about
(29:54):
Bible study. No, it's not. It's all about love. No,
it's not, it's it's it's all about truth. No it's not,
it's about truth taught in a context of love and
learning how to speak the truth in love. Or I'd
say it differently. It's truth taught in a context of relationships.
(30:14):
Learning how to speak the truth in love. Back to
the Ephesians four about 11 through 16. So I'm with you.
The all or nothing. It doesn't mean that they're wrong.
It just means that it's very inadequate. If we're supposed
to be training people to study the word, apply the
word shine his lights be salt, or as first Timothy three,
(30:38):
you know, be pillars in a truth, in a community
that's walking in darkness. How does it happen if I've
got my one hobby horse? You know, someone says to me,
who's a favorite preacher? I go, well, I like Charles
Swindoll a lot. Who are other speakers? Well, uh, you
mentioned Piper. You know, you mentioned James Montgomery Boice. John MacArthur,
(30:58):
who just died. You know, Tony Evans. Uh, I mean,
David Jeremiah. They don't all share the same theological persuasion,
but they are all very much committed to the Word
of God taught in context the right Jesus, the right Savior,
the right book. I want to support them. Well, it's
all about. No it's not. It's both. And it's not
(31:22):
either or. So I would say keep up with your message.
Just don't limit it to just deliverance because that gets abused. Because,
you know, I can tell you, a pastor, you know,
that I worked with, I've shared this story that said
we don't have any babies in our church. Everybody's a
meat eater, not a milk sucker. I said, really, Todd?
He said, yeah, we don't have time for the immature.
(31:44):
I said, and you've still got the same hundred people
in your church you've had for 20 years. Because if
they're truly mature Christians, they're supposed to be producing spiritual babies.
So someone can say, the people that run out with
sloppy agape abuse, the Bible, that I don't aspire to,
that I don't espouse that. But the ones where you
got to be Gabriel's twin or you can't sit in
(32:06):
our church. I don't think that's any more righteous. It's
all about truth. It's all about relationship. How about truth
and relationship or truth in relationship and learning how to
speak the truth motivated by love? What does he say
in verse 16 of Ephesians four when that happens, when
every ligament, in other words, when every member of the
body is contributing what it has to contribute, the body
(32:28):
will grow. It will build itself up in love to
the point I'm all about one particular hobby horse. Great
if you like the hobby horse, but people are going
to be leaving your church sooner or later because they
need more than just one hobby horse. That's why I
have said from the get go, and I believe Janet
would have would affirm that I love speaking on spiritual warfare,
(32:51):
but I love speaking on apologetical issues and most the
transferrable discipleship. What are essentials of the faith? What are
answers to questions? Why? Because I want our people. I
want people to get saved, but I want them to
survive and not just get blown up like fodder out
there because people are asking questions other than my hobby
horse and they have no answers. They feel stupid, so
(33:13):
they just go, I guess it doesn't work for me.
We've we've you know, I've heard Janet say teaching the
whole counsel of God. Uh, we want to I want
to be deep and wide with Scripture, not just one topic.
S1 (33:27):
Yeah. Amen to that. What an answer. Thanks, Dennis. Appreciate
you being with us, Mark. Thanks for your patience. Your
question please.
S8 (33:35):
Yes. Can demons collaborate across long distances and among people
who don't even know each other?
S3 (33:44):
Sure. Yeah. A little bit like your the question earlier about,
you know, I think what he was saying was is
it possible for, for demons to work through. I think
he said the telephone, you know, or work through the
internet or whatever, demons are no more limited to to
(34:05):
physical space than than angels are. They're both angels. Just
one good and one bad. You know, we see Jesus
in Luke 24 could walk into a room that's locked,
and yet he could eat fish up. The whole supernatural dimension, it's.
It's why, when people limit things. I'm a Christian and
(34:26):
I'm a theist, but I function like a naturalist because
I don't want to look foolish in front of my friends.
I say I'm sorry, but the supernatural is just as
real as the physiological or the sociological or the psychological,
and sometimes a problem in learning how to deal with warfare.
I'll tie this back in is if I make an
all physiological. What about where it's sociological. What about where
(34:49):
it's psychological. What about when it's supernatural? The other side
of the pendulum. If everything is about the supernatural, what
about things when they're simply physiological? There's just a physical
reason for it. Or Her psychological. Something's broken. Something's not working.
We've got to be able to say, I need to
learn how to function with all of that. And I
(35:10):
have limitations as a human being. Uh, supernatural entities do
not share some of my my, uh, my limitations. And
one day, with the new body we're given, according to
First Corinthians 15, we're going to be changed in the
twinkle of an eye. Or the first Thessalonians 413 to 18.
We're going to meet him in the air. We're going
to be changed. We're going to have new bodies, too.
(35:33):
And then the physical limitations, at least I assume a
lot of them we have had, uh, we're not going
to have that either. So no, demons are not limited
by physical locale.
S1 (35:44):
Mark, thanks. Appreciate your being a part of the conversation.
Marsha in Massachusetts welcome. Your question, please.
S9 (35:50):
Uh, my question is, um, is drug use, uh, uh,
especially marijuana and other drugs? Is that a symptom of
Demon possession when you can't control yourself, use it.
S1 (36:04):
Good question. Marcia. You hear the music playing, and I
know that Carol's going to have a lot to say
on this. So if you don't mind, let me put
you back on hold, and you stay right where you are.
If you'd be so kind when we come back, Carol
will answer your question. Doctor Carol Payne is our guest again. Remember?
He's got a fabulous book on the topic. It is
there for your perusal. It is called something that you
need to know about. It's called spiritual warfare. Christians demonization
(36:27):
and deliverance. Get to the info page you click on
the site. It'll take you where you need to go
so you can get your copy of the book. We're
going to get the answer to the question is drug
usage symptomatic of demon possession back after this?
S10 (36:41):
The armor of God.
S1 (36:55):
Back to the phones. Back to Marsha's question from the
great Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Who wants to know if drug
use can in fact be a symptom of demon possession?
Doctor Carl Payne is our guest. He joins us regularly
to talk about all kinds of things. Biblical, as I
noted earlier, because you heard Carl give this very impassioned
and appropriate response about, I want to talk about all things.
(37:15):
It isn't just a niche subject for him. He loves
to teach apologetics. His transferable course training series speaks to
that with eloquence. But this is an area where we
do need some instruction for the Goldilocks porridge reason I
discussed earlier. So to the merits of Marcia's question, can
drug use be a symptom of demon possession?
S3 (37:37):
Um, the simple answer is yes. And again, I would
use the word demonization just because of the baggage that
goes with the word possession. But so can a lot
of things. So can alcohol. So can gambling. Uh, I
said earlier, I worked with somebody today before I came
(37:57):
on the program, uh, of the first three areas he
needed to work with, uh, fear and bitterness were both
in there. And I have said before, I have worked
with more demonized Christians who lived with uncontrollable, unexplainable, irrational
fear or bitterness unforgiveness. I will never forgive that person
(38:23):
for what they did. ET cetera. ET cetera. In this case,
a member of the family had been raped as a
little kid and said, how can I ever forgive that person?
I said, do you want to continue to go round
and round on a merry go round with them, or
on a Ferris wheel? No, I said, Ephesians 431 and
32 says, unless you want to be caught in a
(38:45):
cycle of bitterness, you choose to forgive others as Christ
has forgiven you, not because they deserve it, not because
you agree with what they did, but if Jesus Christ
forgives me everything when I talk to him and my forgiveness,
and when I confess my sin, he forgives me. Who
am I to turn around and say I won't forgive?
(39:06):
So the answer is yes, drugs. And I will say,
particularly hallucinogenics in my 40 years of working with this,
seem to be a wide open door for demonization, but
no more than fear, no more than bitterness, no more
than anger that's out of control. In other words, it's
not limited to simply drugs. Well, it must be the occult.
(39:29):
I've had more people that I have worked with that
got involved with demons through fear and bitterness than people
involved in the occult.
S1 (39:37):
Wow. Wow. That's important. That's very powerful. Marcia. Thank you.
Thanks so much for the question. I appreciate it, Cheryl.
And Colorado, thanks for being here. Your question please.
S11 (39:47):
I have had two situations in the last couple years
that have actually changed my life. I've seen God at
work without, like, your last caller with alcoholism. One was
my daughter, who was severely addicted, and I kept feeling
God's conviction that I needed to give up alcohol. And
(40:08):
I kept I kept fighting that. And she was going
to die. And when I finally did give up alcohol
and I was obedient, something changed. And she has been healed.
Another one was a young Christian gal. Same thing. Desperately
going to die. I was in the ER with her,
(40:31):
with her alcohol and speaking out loud. Satan, you leave
her alone. She's a believer. She's a daughter of the king.
And she she has been healed and I my guess
my question is, does my obedience, can my obedience have
an effect on the ability of who I'm praying for.
(40:54):
And I just don't know. Claiming the name of Jesus
over someone. Okay.
S3 (41:01):
I'll give you two answers. I'm going to say first, ultimately,
the attitude of a person who is involved with demons
means far more than whoever it is that's talking to them.
In other words, if a person says, I am involved
with demonic spirits and I want to be, you can
pray all day long for that person. And demons are
(41:21):
not going to say, well, we're going to leave them
alone because someone's praying for them. They're going to say
at the point that that believer is confessing sin that
opened the doors and asking God, close the doors. Then
they'll say, we have no right to them. But as
long as that person is playing games and sin, demons
are going to say they give us an invitation to
keep bothering them. So that's one part of your question. Uh, again, uh,
(41:45):
stand stand for Christ, pray for others. But I'm saying, ultimately,
do I feel defeated? If I pray and something doesn't change,
I go. If the person doesn't want change and they
enjoy their sin. Demons aren't going to volunteer to leave them.
But you know, I think that the second part of
the question about my own testimony, my own, you know,
(42:08):
what what I'm living and doing, take a kid that
grows up in a home where they're always beat up
and beat down. What do you expect to see a
kid that when he has kids, they beat him up
and beat him down? If if if dad is never faithful.
Mom is never faithful. Dad doesn't see value in going
to church. Mom, what do you see most often? You'll
(42:30):
see the kids. I mean, I was the first Christian
in my home, so it's not. It's certainly possible for
kids to take a different direction. But you know, you
cheat at work, you get colleagues say, well, if you
can cheat, I'll cheat. You claim stuff, you claim credit
for something. So yes, I mean our our personal example
can be huge in the world of Christianity, just like
(42:53):
it can be other places. So I want to not
only talk my talk, I'd like to walk my talk.
But ultimately, and again, if you're someone who has been
through demonization on the other side, if you have people
that are even skeptical, I go, just keep living your
life because sooner or later, if they're observant, someone's going
to say, what happened to you. It's like you've really changed.
(43:16):
And I go, of course, it can be a huge testimony.
But the other side of it is, uh, if I've
had people now, I used to think if they come in,
I can talk to them long enough. I can convince
them that, you know, they need to walk with God.
I found that after a while, I had some people
don't want to walk with God. And at that point,
(43:38):
I go, I'm not going to feel beat up when
I'm trying to talk to somebody that says, I know
what I'm doing and I don't care. I would say, check, check.
You better check and see if Christ is really in
your heart. Well, what do you mean? You have to
be perfect to be a Christian? No, I'm not saying that.
But if you tell me I sin willfully and I
don't even care, I'm going to say usually the Holy
Spirit's telling you, hey, that's wrong. You need to stop that.
S1 (44:03):
We're pleased. And thank you so much for the answer.
Thanks so much, Cheryl, for the question. And thank you, friends,
for joining us in this conversation. And we're so grateful
that Doctor Carl Payne comes and visits on a regular basis.
So we take this issue seriously. That doesn't mean it
makes us frightened. Again, let me quote the same scripture.
Greater is he that is in us than he that
is in the world. There's no parity here between Jesus
(44:24):
and Satan. Satan is utterly defeatable and will be. I've
read this book doesn't end well for him by any
stretch of the imagination, but between now and that point,
our battle is against the world, the flesh and the devil,
and it's important for us to understand the uniform we
wear and where our victory comes from. Thank you Carl.
Thank you friends. We'll see you next time on In
the Market with Janet Parshall.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that encourages edifies, equips, enlightens,
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(00:22):
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(00:43):
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(01:45):
the Market with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (02:04):
The belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield
of faith. And the helmet of salvation.
S1 (02:26):
Hey, there's your equipment. Suit up. Welcome to In the
Market with Janet Parshall. We're talking about spiritual warfare. I
bet you knew that already, right? Because you heard the song.
Who do you think our guest is? If you said
doctor Carol Payne, good for you. Because he is our teacher.
He's been walking us through this topic for quite some time.
You're going to need this. Aside from the warfare uniform,
you just got heard. Just got heard. Thank you, English
(02:46):
teacher you just heard about. You're going to need this. 483675.
Any question you have on spiritual warfare? And I'm going
to give the formal introduction to my friend Doctor Carl
Payne in a minute, but I'm going to start with
the story. I've said this before. I'll say it again
and I mean it. I wish it was difficult to
(03:08):
find stories on the occult. It is anything but. It
is rising in this country. It is rising in the UK,
it is rising among a higher demographic. I give you
Hollywood every time. Every time they've got these streaming platforms
and they tell you about the upcoming movies that are coming. Oh,
the overwhelming majority of them are horror films. Why is
there an attraction? I do not get that. I don't
(03:29):
play around with any of that stuff by any stretch
of the imagination, and I think you need to understand
how serious it is. So this is a piece that
showed up in The Guardian, which is a British newspaper,
and it says that there was an arrest on gun possession.
This happened in Queens, New York, in November of 2021.
Believe me, the story updates follow me with this. It's
(03:49):
led the FBI to a pedophilic, satanic Extortion cult that
has victimized dozens, not hundreds if not hundreds of minors,
according to law enforcement documents, court records and sources who
have knowledge about this investigation. So the law enforcement apparently
discovered the organization known as 764. I thought it was 666,
(04:10):
but maybe they couldn't add an A range of aliases.
While investigating alarming social media posts made by Angel Almeida,
a 23 year old resident of Astoria, Queens. Then, on
the 12th of September, 2023, the FBI ends up issuing
a public warning about 764, noting that the group is, quote,
deliberately targeting minor victims on publicly available messaging platforms to
(04:36):
extort them into recording or live streaming acts of self-harm
and producing child sexual abuse material. Mom and dad, are
you fighting for your families? The, uh, apparently the advisory, uh,
is the first formal mention of 764 by any American
law enforcement agency. It's not fringe. It's not conspiracy theory.
(04:56):
You got the FBI identifying this group. Okay. So all
the people go, oh, all those crazy conspiracy theories about
demonic cults. Yeah. Well, there is a conspiracy. It started
in the garden, and he's still very active today. Just
one more thing on this repulsive story. But to understand
that you're dealing with darkness here. The group apparently targets
kids between the ages of eight and 17, and particularly
(05:18):
focuses on young people of color, youth identified as LGBTQ
plus or youth who struggle with mental health issues all
vulnerable categories. Researchers familiar with this particular group indicate the
group's members cultivate ties with minors through a wide range
of platforms. Are you ready for this, mom? Either in
wildly popular games like Roblox, I'm probably saying that wrong.
(05:40):
I don't game or gaming communication platforms like Discord and Twitch,
as well as curated playlists on the streaming services. SoundCloud.
The group's main form of communication is on telegram. Are
these ringing bell mom, which has long been the platform
of choice for many extremists? Now I have to tell
you that the Telegraph, which, by the way, is not
(06:02):
a conservative publication by any stretch of the imagination, said
it's a platform for far right extremists. I'm sorry, is
Satan part of the right? I didn't realize he had
a political affiliation, but that's the telegraph. You got to
give him a pass as big as a football field because, uh,
they're just generally confused. The point of my sharing this
with you is when you get the FBI identifying these cults,
(06:24):
it's not conspiracy. But as people of the word, do
we think it's a conspiracy? I'm sorry. Wait. Do you
hear that? I think it's a lion. I think he's growling. Yeah,
I think he's still prowling, seeking whom he may devour.
That's why we have these conversations. Because he's real now,
Carl and I. And you don't have a spirit of fear. Shouldn't. Anyway,
we weren't given that power, love and of a sound mind.
(06:45):
That's what we got instead. But I'll tell you what.
If you want to play life on the in the
balls of your feet. And you understand that our there,
our conflicts come from the world, the flesh and the devil.
You got to give equal time to all three and
understand that he is real. And we're going to talk
about spiritual warfare so that you can suit up, get
up and get out there without a spirit of fear.
Now ta da! The formal invitation, interaction, introduction of my
(07:09):
friend Doctor Carl Payne, pastor, teacher, speaker, author, former NFL
chaplain with the drum roll, please Seattle Seahawks. He's on
staff at the end. Wasn't that nice? You know that
Packers are always my team, but I. I give this
man due deference because he poured two decades into that
team and they're the better for it on and off
the field I digress. He's currently on staff at Antioch
(07:31):
Bible Church at Redmond, Washington. His primary role there is
serving as the pastor of Leadership Development and Discipleship Training.
He has written many books. If you've not gone through
his transferable cross training program, you should. We broke it
all down. We went through the entire series of books
on this program. It's all in our archives. But he's
written what I think is one of the best books
out there, and you do too, because so many of
(07:51):
you have this book now. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians
Demonization and Deliverance, and it was updated and reprinted again
this year. Doctor Karl Payne, pull up a chair. Make
yourself comfortable. So what do you think about the FBI
literally identifying a group? It's no conspiracy. Followers of Jesus
knew that from day one, but ooh, how awful are
(08:12):
groups like this?
S3 (08:14):
Well, first, young lady, I must say good afternoon, or
it wouldn't be me. You'd have to wonder who's the
imposter on the other side.
S1 (08:22):
Thank you, sir, I feel comfortable now.
S3 (08:24):
Okay, there you go. Secondly, I know I may get
in trouble for this one, but what you shared, there's
so much to attack. I feel like a mosquito on
a nudist colony or something, you know? I mean, there
is so much there. But here's the thoughts that went
through my mind initially. I thought, first, we're asleep. I
(08:45):
think that first Corinthians. Excuse me, first Timothy four, uh,
make it so abundantly clear as we come. Closing to
wrap up. And I think we are, that we're going
to be, uh, enticed. To believe even disobedient spirits. I
think the second Timothy three is the same kind of message.
And I'll draw a conclusion to that when we get
(09:07):
off the music.
S1 (09:09):
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the sound of a pro.
Doctor Carl Payne (877) 548-3675. Again, it's a horrible story, but
I think it's imperative that we understand exactly who our
enemy is and how he destroys innocent people and how
he comes to kill. Right. This is the stuff we
read in Scripture, but I can look at that and say, yeah, well,
(09:30):
here's what here's my comeback to that. Greater is he
that is in us than he that is in the world.
I want to hear more on Doctor Calpains take on
that story. And best of all, your calls (877) 548-3675. And
we'll take him right after this. The world needs hope
(09:54):
and we have the greatest news ever told. But how
do we share it effectively? That's why I've chosen Why
Jesus by Ray comfort is this month's truth tool. Transform
your approach to evangelism through step by step guidance and
real life examples. As for your copy of Why Jesus,
when you give a gift of any amount in the market,
call 877. 58 that's eight 7758 or go to. In
(10:16):
the market with Janet Parshall. You know, when you think
about it, it really is spiritual warfare. Operative word. I
open with that repulsive story reported in the telegram talking
(10:38):
about this pedophilic satanic cult that the FBI has been
tracking and there are hundreds of victims as a result
of this. So this is you know, that's why I
take umbrage when Hollywood decides to make it a movie.
You pay your $18 for your movie ticket now. Yeah,
I know, and that doesn't count the popcorn so that
you can feed into the idea that somehow, um, we
(11:01):
can create a more voracious appetite for all things Puritan
horror related. I just don't get it. And I think
for The believer, it's a wake up call, because in
so doing, we minimize exactly the threat that the enemy poses.
Defeatable though he is, it's still minimizes the threat. So
we're taking your calls at (877) 548-3675. And I put this
(11:21):
story in front of you, Carolyn, you said there was
a whole lot there. And, brother, I know you got
more to say, so please have at it.
S3 (11:27):
Well, a couple of thoughts, but I want to make
one recommendation first. And I think I recommended this book
last year. And I don't know that I've talked about
it since, but I still think Fred Dickerson's book, Believe
It came out in 24 dangers of the Spirit World.
I really believe it's a short book. It's an easy read.
And he says he wrote it saying to Christians, it's
(11:49):
time to wake up. How can we not see what's
going on around us? And I thoroughly enjoyed that. So
if I didn't give that an adequate, you know, pop,
for something that I think is worth reading, I believe
that one's worth reading. Janet. I really like it. And
he's just saying it's he's not saying why is the
world so worldly. He's saying, Christians, are we looking at
(12:12):
what's going on around us and what are we doing?
And if I took it back to the, you know,
the illustration that you give and all, I would say, okay,
I live in a world according to Ephesians two one
and two that says, Satan's on a leash, but this
is his playground. I live at a time when Paul writes,
as I said, the end times, that it's going to
(12:34):
increase the demonic deception. I look at people that are
vulnerable when you say, uh, you know, whether it's over
gender identification or just age 8 to 17 or whatever
you said. I mean, what a wonderful group to go
after because most of them have not had the time
to understand what are what are biblical convictions and truth about.
(12:58):
And and everything is about visual and video. And the
other side is satanic, demonic stuff glamorized. And it's like,
hook them all. They're young. I am dealing regularly with
demonized Christians that when all command to know when they
took advantage of it, it was when they were young
they didn't know how to fight back. And then by
the time they get older, it's like that just becomes
(13:20):
normal for them. Voices, thoughts, ideas, you know, talking to
them and trying to guide them because Jesus doesn't love you, etc..
So I go makes perfect sense to me. And I
thought what I was thinking about Janet, at least in part,
I thought. And here we as a church, now I'm
going to make a generalization. It's not always true. And
I love Christians. If they stand on the Word of God,
(13:43):
I love them if they're Christians because we're family. But
I'm saying I will support Christians. As I've said before,
I'm not really all hung up over denominational ties. I
care what's in the bottle, not the label. As I've
said before, most people don't know what the labels mean
anymore anyway. And if they've got the right salvation, the
right Jesus and the right holy book, we're on the
(14:04):
same side. But I think of how many times I've
just responded just a few minutes ago to an email
from someone who is basically saying to me, if you're
a Christian, you're protected. You don't have to worry about
this stuff. And I know Scripture and I just say
thank you for the arrogant, uninformed, naive response. Look what's
going on around you, even among Christians. And wake up.
(14:28):
But that's my paradigm. That's what I believe. That's what
I've always been taught. Then I look over on the
other side. You know, I feel, I think in my opinion.
I know scripture doesn't quite say it, but this is
what resonates with my heart. And this is what my
people have taught me. And and you have a circus.
So on one hand, nothing is demonic. On the other hand,
(14:49):
everything is demonic. You get people that are trying to
be sane and sensible in the middle going, do I
run with the arrogant group on one side? Do I
run with the spiritually naive group on the other side?
Or do I just plant myself in the middle and say, well,
I really don't know, and I don't want to look
embarrassed and I don't want to have someone because of
association attacking me. So I'll just pretend like it's not there.
(15:14):
And that way I don't get hooked on either side
of that. And and hey, as long as I read scripture,
love Jesus, and memorize the Bible, I'll be just fine.
And and I say it's common sense. I thought of this.
I don't know if this will tie in, but I
thought of our city. Janet used to be something beautiful
that when people would say, I'd like to come up
for in a vacation and see it, I'd say great.
(15:36):
Maybe you could show us some things in downtown Seattle. Great.
I just recently told someone, you know, one of my relatives,
I said, you don't want to be in downtown Seattle.
It's a pit. And you end up. You end up going. Listen,
we have free drug stations, free heroin. Police can't get involved.
And then we wonder why more people get involved with drugs.
(15:58):
And I'm going. Huh? Let me think about that one
and see if I can figure it out. So I'm
saying we live at a time when Scripture says as
things get closer to the end, that's subjective, but I
still believe we're there. I didn't used to say that.
I used to fight against that. When I see things
going on on TV, etc. even Christians sometimes dividing some
(16:19):
of the spirits. Like I said before, I want to
be a Christian medium. Unbelievable. You know, when you see
things like that going on and then you see the
Christians wanting to fight, you know, pull out their sabers
Sabres over, is it? No involvement or everything? Well, and
then the fear of association and I go, we are asleep,
(16:42):
we're asleep and adults can get taken down by it
and fooled us. But kids are even easier because at
least there's some kind of filter when we're older. And
we think the answer is, well, if you don't talk
about it, it'll go away. Where does that work? Where
does that work?
S1 (17:00):
Yeah, exactly. Well said. Thank you for that, Carl. So
when we come back, I'll go right to the phones
and you can ask Doctor Carl Payne, this marvelous teaching
pastor who has written, I think, one of the best
books on the topic. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization
and Deliverance. You can ask him any question. You've got. 87754836758775483675.
(17:23):
And don't forget, if you don't yet have a copy
of this book, you should get one. You can get
it by going to in the market with Janet Parshall.
Click on that red box that says Program details and audio,
takes you over to the information page, and you can
click through to get your copy of the book back
after this.
S4 (17:42):
Helmet of salvation.
S2 (17:58):
Battlefield. Without a sword. Without a shield. I take my
sword and shield each day when I kneel down and
humbly pray.
S1 (18:14):
We are talking about spiritual warfare with Doctor Carl Payne,
who's written the book Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance.
We turn now to your calls at 675. Roger, I
welcome you from Florida. Thanks for stopping by. Your question
for Doctor Payne, please.
S5 (18:35):
Yeah. Good afternoon. I was wondering, can witchcraft be sent
through the telephone?
S1 (18:42):
Mm.
S3 (18:45):
Um, I think I would respond this way, Roger. I
think I would say that if the supernatural is actually involved.
And remember, you've got people that profess to be Christians
that aren't. You've got people that profess to be Satanists
that aren't, etc.. Um, in other words, because someone wears
a label doesn't make it true. But if you're dealing
(19:07):
with someone that actually knows what they're doing and they're
actually involved with spirits, spirits are are certainly not limited
to just, you know what, what can be done physically.
So if someone said can can curses or such like that,
can that pass through, uh, you know, and it can
(19:28):
abuse inanimate objects be used. Uh, can it be done supernaturally?
I would say. Sure. In other words, it's not it's
not limited to to simply having to be in a
physical presence anymore. If a Christian wants to pray that
God would get involved with someone and prays for them
over the phone. Do I think, well, since I'm praying
(19:49):
over the phone, God doesn't hear that and the Holy
Spirit wouldn't be involved, I go. He's not limited to
are you? You know, one on one. Well, I'm suggesting
that that limitation, uh uh, is demons are no more
limited by physical contact than, you know, the Holy Spirit
would be limited in our prayers and such. So can
(20:13):
it be real? Yes. Is it always real? No.
S1 (20:17):
And I thank you, Roger, so much for being a
part of the conversation. (877) 548-3675. Nancy in Illinois. Thanks for
being here. Your question please.
S6 (20:27):
Hi. I would like to know what can I say
or do to help the church acknowledge that these demonic
happenings are real. Because when I approach people, they say,
oh yeah, that's a tough one and they don't offer
any help. What can I do to get help and
(20:48):
to let other people acknowledge that this is real?
S3 (20:51):
Well, this may sound kind of trite, but I'll tell
you the first two things that hit me when you
say that. And by the way, I appreciate what you're asking.
And I appreciate people wanting, uh, more and more to
to understand. I've told Janet I've had schools, graduate schools, seminaries,
churches inviting me to come in to speak, which I
(21:12):
still enjoy doing that 20, 30 years ago were just
embarrassed by the topic. So there has been some movement forward.
But I would say this, I would say, number one,
live a godly life so that you're taken seriously. And
I would say, number two, know scripture because if I
don't live a godly life and then if I say
I feel in my heart or Scripture says somewhere, most
(21:36):
people that consider themselves anyways dialed in with their Christian
faith are going to go, what in the world? I mean,
you you want to you want to alert me to
something that you say it needs to be looked at.
Why would I take you seriously? So I'm saying, sometimes
if you have a godly walk and, you know, Scripture
(21:58):
and and I don't know all the questions people are
going to ask, and there's many questions I'm sure I
don't have answers to. I've never I've always said with
Janet on this, I'll answer any question as long as
I have an answer. If I don't, I'll say, I
don't know. Uh, because we're always learning. But I'm saying
if you're someone that people know, knows Scripture in context,
(22:18):
and you walk with God and you say, we really
need to be taking a look at this. You're going
to be taking a lot more seriously than someone that
doesn't know. Scripture chases their feelings. You know, whatever is
the newest fad and someone comes up, it's like, yeah,
give it three weeks and they'll be saying something else.
So I'm sure that's not a perfect answer, but part
(22:39):
of it goes back to I worked with somebody today
who was demonized. They drove in from from another city
out of town. And one of the things I said
to him is what you're going to do, your life
is going to change. And I said, is you have
people around you. You can say, this is what happened.
Someone may believe it. Someone not. I said, do what
(23:00):
you choose. But I said, as you start walking and
responding in ways that you haven't, you're going to have
people walking up to you and saying what is going on?
Your life has so changed. And now they're asking you
because they respect you, not because they're afraid of you
or disrespecting you. So be who you're supposed to be
(23:21):
and see if we have more of a hearing than
people that are, you know, the sky is falling. And
I never know why. And after a while people just
tune them out.
S1 (23:30):
Mhm. Wow. Thank you so much Nancy for the question
I appreciate it. Carol, can I linger on this question
because Nancy, I thank you for your question. You know
how many times over the multiple years that we've had
these conversations? Carol, I've said that this topic for the
church for some is like Goldilocks. Goldilocks is porridge. It's
either too hot, they don't touch it, it's too cold.
They don't want anything to do with it, or they
(23:51):
get it just right. Praise be to God that Antioch
Bible gets it right. You're on the teaching staff and
you do this. But if it's there from Genesis to Revelation,
if we start with the understanding that the Bible doesn't
contain the Word of God, isn't that nice? It contains
the Word of God. It is the Word of God.
So if His Word talks to us about the power
of the enemy, warns us, tells us how to defeat him,
(24:13):
gives us the tools to be able to do just that.
Where do we get the right to take a magic
marker and basically cross out those parts that we don't
want to talk about. I mean, we point to the
world and say, oh, how dare you do that? Are
we doing that in the church? Or are we preaching
line upon line, precept upon precept, the whole counsel of God,
and holding fast to that which is good, including but
(24:36):
not limited to, spiritual warfare. More of your calls after this.
We live in complicated times and in the market. We're
helping you interpret complex cultural issues through the lens of Scripture.
(24:59):
Our team of partial partners is growing and to say
thank you. They receive exclusive information from me. In fact,
I talk to you directly from my personal computer to
yours by email. Become a partial partner today and you'll
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online to in the market with Janet Parshall. (877) 548-3675. That's
(25:23):
our number here at in the market with Janet Parshall (877) 548-3675.
Why is that important? Because you're calling in with your
questions on spiritual warfare, as we have yet again, another
great conversation with our dear friend Doctor Carl Payne, who
is pastor, teacher, speaker, author, former NFL chaplain with the
Seattle Seahawks. Uh, he is on staff at Antioch Bible
Church in Redmond, Washington. Are they not blessed to have him,
(25:45):
by the way? His primary role there is serving as
the pastor of Leadership development and discipleship training, and he's
written a book that goes right to the core of
what we're talking about. It's called Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization
and Deliverance. And as Carl noted earlier, if you were
paying attention, he said, in these latter days, because Scripture
gives us the heads up on this, we're going to
see more of this kind of stuff, not less. So
(26:07):
I am so very grateful that he updated the book
and that it was reprinted again, because we need some
clear answers on this. As I said before, Nancy pointed
this out. I don't understand why some churches aren't even
talking about it. And yet, what does the devil do? Oh,
because your church won't talk about this, won't preach on this.
The devil's just going to sit down and walk a
wide berth around your church. So that idea of we're
combating the world, the flesh and the devil doesn't apply.
(26:30):
If your pastor chooses not to talk about the devil,
they'll just talk about the world in the flesh. No,
no whole counsel of God. The word whole there is important. (877) 548-3675.
And let me go to Dennis in Illinois. Dennis, thanks
so much for stopping by. Your question for Doctor Carl Payne, please.
S7 (26:47):
Thank you. Can you guys hear me.
S1 (26:49):
Loud and clear. Thank you.
S7 (26:51):
Okay, great. Um, I came out of the charismatic movement,
Derek Prince, the Holy Spirit teaching mission, and all of
that emphasis on demons back in the 70s. My question
is now, if thank God, I become reformed through R.C.
Sproul and all those wonderful guys. But anyway, um, how
did you feel about the legitimacy of deliverance ministries that
(27:15):
seemed to put that above, sharing the gospel and personal
and ongoing sanctification, ala John Owen from the Puritan group.
So that's my question. Are they how do you view.
There's so many of them. These deliverance ministries, as I said,
(27:36):
seem to bypass the gospel and ongoing personal sanctification.
S3 (27:43):
Um, well, my brother, I can appreciate very much what
you're saying, and I would respond this way. There's a
reason in the book that I wrote on this that
I did, or articles that I say I've never hung
out a shingle that says Exorcist in, you know, pay
your nickel and come on in. My primary work has
(28:04):
been at this church for the last 30 some years.
Transferable discipleship. I work through lesson by lesson on what
are essentials of the Faith. What are Apologetical responses to
common questions? What is involved in leadership? And I would
suggest that anybody who makes ministry all about one aspect
(28:27):
of ministry doesn't make them wrong in their passion for
that particular ministry. But I think it's certainly incomplete. And
I would say something like this. See if it helps,
you know, where I'm coming from. I would say when
I have churches that say we're all about evangelism, I'd
say that's that's too bad. Uh, you know, John 1516
(28:47):
says we're supposed to bear fruit, but then we're supposed
to make sure that our fruit can remain, which means
they need to get saved, but they need to get trained.
But I don't see that any more incongruous than someone
says we're all about training. I would say, well, somewhere
you got to get them saved. Uh, you know, I
had you mentioned reform. I'm not anti-reform I'm not reform
in my theology, but I certainly have read John Owen.
(29:10):
I've read B.B. Warfield. I've read John Gill, I've read
John Calvin. You know, I've got most of those in my.
Many of those in my fabulous writers. But if someone
thinks that the end of Christian theology is with, you know,
Reformation and covenant theology, I would say it's part of it. Uh,
it's certainly not all of it. So I'm saying, even
(29:31):
if it's all about sanctification, no it isn't. It's all
about reformed theology. No it isn't. It's all about dispensational theology.
No it isn't. It's all about end times. No it isn't.
So I would I mean, I think I'd be in
agreement with you when I see someone. But it's not
just this deliverance. You know, I have people say it's
all about spiritual gifts. No, it's not. It's all about
(29:54):
Bible study. No, it's not. It's all about love. No,
it's not, it's it's it's all about truth. No it's not,
it's about truth taught in a context of love and
learning how to speak the truth in love. Or I'd
say it differently. It's truth taught in a context of relationships.
(30:14):
Learning how to speak the truth in love. Back to
the Ephesians four about 11 through 16. So I'm with you.
The all or nothing. It doesn't mean that they're wrong.
It just means that it's very inadequate. If we're supposed
to be training people to study the word, apply the
word shine his lights be salt, or as first Timothy three,
(30:38):
you know, be pillars in a truth, in a community
that's walking in darkness. How does it happen if I've
got my one hobby horse? You know, someone says to me,
who's a favorite preacher? I go, well, I like Charles
Swindoll a lot. Who are other speakers? Well, uh, you
mentioned Piper. You know, you mentioned James Montgomery Boice. John MacArthur,
(30:58):
who just died. You know, Tony Evans. Uh, I mean,
David Jeremiah. They don't all share the same theological persuasion,
but they are all very much committed to the Word
of God taught in context the right Jesus, the right Savior,
the right book. I want to support them. Well, it's
all about. No it's not. It's both. And it's not
(31:22):
either or. So I would say keep up with your message.
Just don't limit it to just deliverance because that gets abused. Because,
you know, I can tell you, a pastor, you know,
that I worked with, I've shared this story that said
we don't have any babies in our church. Everybody's a
meat eater, not a milk sucker. I said, really, Todd?
He said, yeah, we don't have time for the immature.
(31:44):
I said, and you've still got the same hundred people
in your church you've had for 20 years. Because if
they're truly mature Christians, they're supposed to be producing spiritual babies.
So someone can say, the people that run out with
sloppy agape abuse, the Bible, that I don't aspire to,
that I don't espouse that. But the ones where you
got to be Gabriel's twin or you can't sit in
(32:06):
our church. I don't think that's any more righteous. It's
all about truth. It's all about relationship. How about truth
and relationship or truth in relationship and learning how to
speak the truth motivated by love? What does he say
in verse 16 of Ephesians four when that happens, when
every ligament, in other words, when every member of the
body is contributing what it has to contribute, the body
(32:28):
will grow. It will build itself up in love to
the point I'm all about one particular hobby horse. Great
if you like the hobby horse, but people are going
to be leaving your church sooner or later because they
need more than just one hobby horse. That's why I
have said from the get go, and I believe Janet
would have would affirm that I love speaking on spiritual warfare,
(32:51):
but I love speaking on apologetical issues and most the
transferrable discipleship. What are essentials of the faith? What are
answers to questions? Why? Because I want our people. I
want people to get saved, but I want them to
survive and not just get blown up like fodder out
there because people are asking questions other than my hobby
horse and they have no answers. They feel stupid, so
(33:13):
they just go, I guess it doesn't work for me.
We've we've you know, I've heard Janet say teaching the
whole counsel of God. Uh, we want to I want
to be deep and wide with Scripture, not just one topic.
S1 (33:27):
Yeah. Amen to that. What an answer. Thanks, Dennis. Appreciate
you being with us, Mark. Thanks for your patience. Your
question please.
S8 (33:35):
Yes. Can demons collaborate across long distances and among people
who don't even know each other?
S3 (33:44):
Sure. Yeah. A little bit like your the question earlier about,
you know, I think what he was saying was is
it possible for, for demons to work through. I think
he said the telephone, you know, or work through the
internet or whatever, demons are no more limited to to
(34:05):
physical space than than angels are. They're both angels. Just
one good and one bad. You know, we see Jesus
in Luke 24 could walk into a room that's locked,
and yet he could eat fish up. The whole supernatural dimension, it's.
It's why, when people limit things. I'm a Christian and
(34:26):
I'm a theist, but I function like a naturalist because
I don't want to look foolish in front of my friends.
I say I'm sorry, but the supernatural is just as
real as the physiological or the sociological or the psychological,
and sometimes a problem in learning how to deal with warfare.
I'll tie this back in is if I make an
all physiological. What about where it's sociological. What about where
(34:49):
it's psychological. What about when it's supernatural? The other side
of the pendulum. If everything is about the supernatural, what
about things when they're simply physiological? There's just a physical
reason for it. Or Her psychological. Something's broken. Something's not working.
We've got to be able to say, I need to
learn how to function with all of that. And I
(35:10):
have limitations as a human being. Uh, supernatural entities do
not share some of my my, uh, my limitations. And
one day, with the new body we're given, according to
First Corinthians 15, we're going to be changed in the
twinkle of an eye. Or the first Thessalonians 413 to 18.
We're going to meet him in the air. We're going
to be changed. We're going to have new bodies, too.
(35:33):
And then the physical limitations, at least I assume a
lot of them we have had, uh, we're not going
to have that either. So no, demons are not limited
by physical locale.
S1 (35:44):
Mark, thanks. Appreciate your being a part of the conversation.
Marsha in Massachusetts welcome. Your question, please.
S9 (35:50):
Uh, my question is, um, is drug use, uh, uh,
especially marijuana and other drugs? Is that a symptom of
Demon possession when you can't control yourself, use it.
S1 (36:04):
Good question. Marcia. You hear the music playing, and I
know that Carol's going to have a lot to say
on this. So if you don't mind, let me put
you back on hold, and you stay right where you are.
If you'd be so kind when we come back, Carol
will answer your question. Doctor Carol Payne is our guest again. Remember?
He's got a fabulous book on the topic. It is
there for your perusal. It is called something that you
need to know about. It's called spiritual warfare. Christians demonization
(36:27):
and deliverance. Get to the info page you click on
the site. It'll take you where you need to go
so you can get your copy of the book. We're
going to get the answer to the question is drug
usage symptomatic of demon possession back after this?
S10 (36:41):
The armor of God.
S1 (36:55):
Back to the phones. Back to Marsha's question from the
great Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Who wants to know if drug
use can in fact be a symptom of demon possession?
Doctor Carl Payne is our guest. He joins us regularly
to talk about all kinds of things. Biblical, as I
noted earlier, because you heard Carl give this very impassioned
and appropriate response about, I want to talk about all things.
(37:15):
It isn't just a niche subject for him. He loves
to teach apologetics. His transferable course training series speaks to
that with eloquence. But this is an area where we
do need some instruction for the Goldilocks porridge reason I
discussed earlier. So to the merits of Marcia's question, can
drug use be a symptom of demon possession?
S3 (37:37):
Um, the simple answer is yes. And again, I would
use the word demonization just because of the baggage that
goes with the word possession. But so can a lot
of things. So can alcohol. So can gambling. Uh, I
said earlier, I worked with somebody today before I came
(37:57):
on the program, uh, of the first three areas he
needed to work with, uh, fear and bitterness were both
in there. And I have said before, I have worked
with more demonized Christians who lived with uncontrollable, unexplainable, irrational
fear or bitterness unforgiveness. I will never forgive that person
(38:23):
for what they did. ET cetera. ET cetera. In this case,
a member of the family had been raped as a
little kid and said, how can I ever forgive that person?
I said, do you want to continue to go round
and round on a merry go round with them, or
on a Ferris wheel? No, I said, Ephesians 431 and
32 says, unless you want to be caught in a
(38:45):
cycle of bitterness, you choose to forgive others as Christ
has forgiven you, not because they deserve it, not because
you agree with what they did, but if Jesus Christ
forgives me everything when I talk to him and my forgiveness,
and when I confess my sin, he forgives me. Who
am I to turn around and say I won't forgive?
(39:06):
So the answer is yes, drugs. And I will say,
particularly hallucinogenics in my 40 years of working with this,
seem to be a wide open door for demonization, but
no more than fear, no more than bitterness, no more
than anger that's out of control. In other words, it's
not limited to simply drugs. Well, it must be the occult.
(39:29):
I've had more people that I have worked with that
got involved with demons through fear and bitterness than people
involved in the occult.
S1 (39:37):
Wow. Wow. That's important. That's very powerful. Marcia. Thank you.
Thanks so much for the question. I appreciate it, Cheryl.
And Colorado, thanks for being here. Your question please.
S11 (39:47):
I have had two situations in the last couple years
that have actually changed my life. I've seen God at
work without, like, your last caller with alcoholism. One was
my daughter, who was severely addicted, and I kept feeling
God's conviction that I needed to give up alcohol. And
(40:08):
I kept I kept fighting that. And she was going
to die. And when I finally did give up alcohol
and I was obedient, something changed. And she has been healed.
Another one was a young Christian gal. Same thing. Desperately
going to die. I was in the ER with her,
(40:31):
with her alcohol and speaking out loud. Satan, you leave
her alone. She's a believer. She's a daughter of the king.
And she she has been healed and I my guess
my question is, does my obedience, can my obedience have
an effect on the ability of who I'm praying for.
(40:54):
And I just don't know. Claiming the name of Jesus
over someone. Okay.
S3 (41:01):
I'll give you two answers. I'm going to say first, ultimately,
the attitude of a person who is involved with demons
means far more than whoever it is that's talking to them.
In other words, if a person says, I am involved
with demonic spirits and I want to be, you can
pray all day long for that person. And demons are
(41:21):
not going to say, well, we're going to leave them
alone because someone's praying for them. They're going to say
at the point that that believer is confessing sin that
opened the doors and asking God, close the doors. Then
they'll say, we have no right to them. But as
long as that person is playing games and sin, demons
are going to say they give us an invitation to
keep bothering them. So that's one part of your question. Uh, again, uh,
(41:45):
stand stand for Christ, pray for others. But I'm saying, ultimately,
do I feel defeated? If I pray and something doesn't change,
I go. If the person doesn't want change and they
enjoy their sin. Demons aren't going to volunteer to leave them.
But you know, I think that the second part of
the question about my own testimony, my own, you know,
(42:08):
what what I'm living and doing, take a kid that
grows up in a home where they're always beat up
and beat down. What do you expect to see a
kid that when he has kids, they beat him up
and beat him down? If if if dad is never faithful.
Mom is never faithful. Dad doesn't see value in going
to church. Mom, what do you see most often? You'll
(42:30):
see the kids. I mean, I was the first Christian
in my home, so it's not. It's certainly possible for
kids to take a different direction. But you know, you
cheat at work, you get colleagues say, well, if you
can cheat, I'll cheat. You claim stuff, you claim credit
for something. So yes, I mean our our personal example
can be huge in the world of Christianity, just like
(42:53):
it can be other places. So I want to not
only talk my talk, I'd like to walk my talk.
But ultimately, and again, if you're someone who has been
through demonization on the other side, if you have people
that are even skeptical, I go, just keep living your
life because sooner or later, if they're observant, someone's going
to say, what happened to you. It's like you've really changed.
(43:16):
And I go, of course, it can be a huge testimony.
But the other side of it is, uh, if I've
had people now, I used to think if they come in,
I can talk to them long enough. I can convince
them that, you know, they need to walk with God.
I found that after a while, I had some people
don't want to walk with God. And at that point,
(43:38):
I go, I'm not going to feel beat up when
I'm trying to talk to somebody that says, I know
what I'm doing and I don't care. I would say, check, check.
You better check and see if Christ is really in
your heart. Well, what do you mean? You have to
be perfect to be a Christian? No, I'm not saying that.
But if you tell me I sin willfully and I
don't even care, I'm going to say usually the Holy
Spirit's telling you, hey, that's wrong. You need to stop that.
S1 (44:03):
We're pleased. And thank you so much for the answer.
Thanks so much, Cheryl, for the question. And thank you, friends,
for joining us in this conversation. And we're so grateful
that Doctor Carl Payne comes and visits on a regular basis.
So we take this issue seriously. That doesn't mean it
makes us frightened. Again, let me quote the same scripture.
Greater is he that is in us than he that
is in the world. There's no parity here between Jesus
(44:24):
and Satan. Satan is utterly defeatable and will be. I've
read this book doesn't end well for him by any
stretch of the imagination, but between now and that point,
our battle is against the world, the flesh and the devil,
and it's important for us to understand the uniform we
wear and where our victory comes from. Thank you Carl.
Thank you friends. We'll see you next time on In
the Market with Janet Parshall.
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