May 28, 2025 • 44 mins
Socialism is making a comeback-and so is the idea that "Jesus was a socialist." Today Lawrence Reed will show it is pure fantasy to believe that Jesus wanted earthly governments to redistribute wealth, centrally plan the economy, or impose welfare states. Our guest has an immensely popular video for Prager University, which has attracted more than four million views online. Poll after poll shows that young Americans have a positive image of socialism. In fact, more than half say they would rather live in a socialist country than in a capitalist one. Learn how to explode the myths that have lured in young people everywhere.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
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at in the Market with Janet Parshall. Again the truth
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Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour
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(01:43):
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us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:47):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:49):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:51):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:53):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S5 (01:57):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S6 (01:59):
This idea is not.
S7 (02:16):
Can you define socialism? Socialism. Can you define socialism?
S8 (02:24):
Can I define socialism? Probably not. If I'm being totally honest.
S9 (02:30):
Socialism. Oh, boy. I don't think I can.
S8 (02:35):
Like Social Security. Roads. Medicaid. Depending on the form that
it takes. Um, anything that sort of come together in
publicly funded and through our government would be socialism. Um,
I might be wrong. So if you make me look
like a fool on the news, I'll forgive you for it.
S1 (02:53):
What is socialism? That was CNN asking some people on
the street. And if people can't even answer the question,
then how does this idea get legs and walk all
over a country again? And why are more and more
people thinking that socialism is a good idea? I spent
part of the last couple of days studying a man
who was murdered by communists, which is, by the way,
(03:15):
the follow up to socialism because he dared to expose
what was going on under Stalin with multiple millions of
lives that were lost while they were telling the world
everything was great. We'll talk someday about the connection between
George Orwell's Animal Farm and what was going on under
the Stalin regime, but I digress. Now it's socialism, and
since we can't even define it, why are more and
more people raising the idea that Jesus himself was a socialist?
(03:38):
By the way, when all else fails, read the instructions,
the Word of God, and you'll find out the answer
to that question. But today we're going to spend the
entire hour talking about this question Was Jesus a socialist?
We're going to talk to Lawrence Reed. I am thrilled
that I get to spend the hour with him. He
is president emeritus of the Foundation for Economic Education. He's
a former professor of economics. He's the author or editor
(03:59):
of several other books, including Excuse Me, Professor Challenging the
Myths of Progressivism and Real Heroes Inspiring True Stories of Courage, Character,
and Conviction. And you know, he's one of the good
guys because he got his, uh, a special award, an
alumni achievement award from his alma mater, Grove City College,
one of the best in America. So, Lawrence, what a
(04:20):
joy to have you with us. And I want to
thank you, first of all, for the gift of your time.
I can't repay you in time. I so appreciate your
giving it to us, and your book is so timely
and so important. Your book is called Was Jesus a Socialist? Why?
This question is being asked again and why? The answer
is almost always wrong. With your background in economics and
someone who understands who Jesus is as revealed in His Word,
(04:41):
this is going to be a fascinating conversation, but I
think I need to start where CNN did, and that
is a working definition of socialism. How do you, particularly
as a prof of economics, how do you define it?
S10 (04:53):
Well, Janet, let me begin by saying thank you for
having me and for that very kind introduction and the
kind words about Grove City College. Uh, I have a
great fondness for the college that I attended, uh, what,
half a century ago. Um, but socialism, you're right, is, um,
sometimes hard to nail down, in part because even many
(05:13):
socialists don't have a hard and fast definition of it.
They'll often say, well, here it is over here, uh,
when some new regime comes into power, and then later
when it flops, uh, they say, well, that wasn't quite it.
We'll try better. We'll do better the next time. But
I'll give you a hard and fast definition of it.
Socialism is the concentration of power in government for the
(05:37):
purpose of achieving 1 or 2 or all three of
these objectives. One of them is the central planning of
the economy. Another is the coercive redistribution of wealth. And
the third is government ownership of the means of production. Uh,
socialists end up doing some of all three. And the
(05:59):
more of those things they do, the more we lose
our liberties.
S1 (06:04):
So then it raises an important question, which is when
you look at those things, at first blush, even if
you slept through high school civics, this is so antithetical
to the principles that define this country that we want
less government, not more. But I was thinking when you
were giving that definition, it raises an interesting allow me
to do what my mom used to call some spider
thinking here for a minute. It makes me want to
go back and sit in like a fly on the wall.
(06:26):
On some of the conversation with the founders. This idea,
by the way, of central planning of the economy. Wasn't
that Hamilton's approach, by the way.
S10 (06:34):
To a great degree, although I think he would be
horrified at how far even the United States has gone
down that path. But among the founders, he was the
more interventionist in the sense that he wanted a central bank.
He wanted, uh, corporate welfare. He wanted more power at
the center in Washington than men like Jefferson or Madison
(06:54):
certainly wanted. of them.
S1 (06:56):
So again, it's an old argument because we're looking for
systems that serve the people the best. And so when
you talk about those things that really just a precursory
reader tell you that they're really antithetical to the principles
of a free market of equal opportunity, not necessarily guaranteed
equal outcome. Why has this specter raised its head again?
S10 (07:17):
I think a number of reasons. One, a lot of
it is coming from academia. Uh, and uh, that goes back,
I think, to the radicals of the 60s and 70s, uh,
who are now, in many cases, professors at universities, where
quite often they have tenure. So they're protected from, uh,
market realities and where they can spout nonsense and, and
(07:41):
get a hearing. And of course, they're teaching young people who, uh,
by almost by definition, a young person in their late teens,
early 20s tend they tend to be idealistic. Uh, they, uh, are,
you know, very interested in being compassionate and helping people
and so forth. And they're told by these professors that, well,
that's what socialism is all about. It's helping, it's caring,
(08:04):
it's compassion. It's doing good things for people and maybe
even giving them free stuff. Uh, it's with a little
life experience and a little economic understanding that later some
of those young people will fortunately see the light and
realize that what their professors told them was maybe the, uh,
the velvet glove. They didn't tell them about what's inside,
(08:26):
which is the Iron Fist.
S1 (08:28):
Yeah. Wow. Is that well said? But when you ticked
off some of those things that those professors teach in
their tenured positions, you can see how even if you
have just a thin understanding of who Jesus was, you
can think, well, isn't that what he did? Isn't that
who he was? Let me take a break. And when
we come back, uh, there's so many questions in your
excellent book, was Jesus a Socialist? Why this question is
(08:49):
being asked again, and why? The answer is almost always wrong.
By the way, I want to give you a chance
to ask questions as well. 87754836758775483675. Learning to discern. Understanding
the times in which we live. Being able to answer
winsomely this exact question was Jesus a socialist? Is that
(09:11):
what the scriptures teach? True or false? We're going to
find out with Lawrence. Read more after this. When the
(09:34):
storms of life hit with hurricane force, how do you respond?
This month's truth tool is the Mediterranean Sea Rules, where
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S11 (10:01):
Socialism to me is.
S12 (10:03):
Freedom a democratic economy.
S13 (10:05):
A social justice.
S12 (10:06):
Liberty council so well debt a system run by the
people for the people.
S14 (10:10):
Freedom. It's oriented towards human need. Living in a world
where there's no racism.
S15 (10:14):
And intonations.
S14 (10:15):
Sustainability.
S12 (10:16):
Justice.
S16 (10:16):
A non-alienated form of labor.
S17 (10:18):
You've got a purpose in life. No war.
S12 (10:20):
Solidarity, occupy your workplace.
S13 (10:23):
Character, people.
S12 (10:24):
Emancipation.
S11 (10:26):
Collective ownership of the means of production.
S17 (10:28):
No alienation.
S16 (10:29):
Freedom to be able to be a creative individual.
S12 (10:32):
To have a sustainable planet.
S11 (10:34):
Equality between genders, races, Liberty. People before profit.
S14 (10:39):
No. Sexism. No. Homophobia.
S12 (10:41):
Harmony. Solidarity.
S14 (10:42):
Liberation.
S12 (10:43):
Mobilization.
S14 (10:44):
Agency.
S11 (10:45):
Revolution is the next step.
S16 (10:47):
A place where people can make friends, throwing off individuality
and becoming a collective.
S17 (10:51):
And you meet the best people in the world.
S12 (10:53):
Unity.
S15 (10:54):
Human liberation.
S12 (10:55):
Queer liberation, workers control. Not having to spend eight hours
a day, five days a week selling my soul utopia.
S1 (11:02):
I mean, who would be opposed to socialism, right? It's
also probably why, in a 2019 survey, more than 70%
of millennials said that they would likely vote for a socialist.
Which puts an interesting question on the table for Christ's followers.
Was Jesus a socialist? That's the new book by Lawrence Reid,
who's president emeritus of the Foundation for Economic Education. Thousands
of articles give speeches literally around the world, and he's
(11:25):
the author of this important book. Larry, what we just
heard that if that truly is what people perceive socialism
to be, it would be heaven on earth. It would
be utopia. But were there definitions really accurate based on
what you just said about one or all three of
the points enumerated in our first segment?
S10 (11:43):
No, I don't think so. And the nub of it
is this Janet. They fail to point out that the
very essence of socialism requires the use of force. If
you simply listen to the agendas of socialist candidates or
socialist policy writers. It's not a laundry list of helpful
(12:04):
suggestions for the comment box. What they propose over and
over again, are compulsory, coercive programs, because they think that
what they have in mind for you and your money
is better than what you have in mind for you
and your money. I mean, they talk about when they
try to sell socialism, they talk in the bumper sticker
(12:25):
language of compassion and caring and so forth. But you
can do that under capitalism. In fact, I would argue
there's a lot more caring and sharing and giving, uh,
under capitalism than there is under socialism. You even see
that between governments. Where does what's the flow of foreign aid?
It goes from, uh, governments of largely capitalist countries to
(12:47):
governments of largely socialist countries that always need to be
bailed out. So the difference between, say, capitalism or free
markets and socialism ultimately, is that under socialism, government has
got a gun to your head. Everything it wants to
do will be done not as a helpful suggestion, but
as a compulsory coercive program.
S1 (13:09):
So forgive the sort of pedantic nature of this question,
but there's a certain amount of hubris to that. What
makes government think it's got all of the answers? Government
is me. And so why would this select group say
we know better than you? There's an arrogance to that.
S10 (13:24):
Oh, yeah. An arrogance and an absence of an understanding
about the essence of power, which Lord Acton warned us, um,
150 years ago was, uh, corrupting at its very essence.
It's a failure to understand even the track record of
big government. I mean, if I showed up at your
house and said when you came to the door, hey,
(13:45):
I'd like to, uh, take charge of your life. And
by the way, I should tell you that I'm already
up to my eyeballs in debt and everything I touch
turns to garbage. Uh, nothing that I, uh, try to
do is ever accomplished very well or very cost effectively,
but nonetheless put me in charge of your life. You'd
laugh at me. And yet, that's what socialists are advocating
(14:07):
every day.
S1 (14:08):
So what is the elixir? Or if I can mix
my metaphors, what's the siren song here? When they did
The Man on the Street and ask those people from
Down Under what they thought of socialism. Almost all of
them talked about the fact that they didn't have to
sell their soul. They didn't have to work 9 to 5,
that it was the implied, although the word wasn't used
was basically free stuff. Who doesn't want free stuff?
S10 (14:30):
Yeah, well, that's another way of saying whether they would
admit it or not, that what they're after is not
having to serve others by offering them something of value
in the marketplace. They just want a third party, the government,
to take from other people and give to them. Um,
when you say sold my soul, in terms of selling
(14:51):
your labor and being employed by a private employer. What
you're simply doing is you're engaging in a mutually beneficial
collaborative arrangement, which results in the production of valuable goods
and services that people will willingly trade with you for.
And that's what we want in a free and peaceful society,
not a place where the government says, don't worry, we're
(15:12):
just going to take it from somebody and hand it
over to you.
S1 (15:15):
Yeah. Wow. So well said. This is a problem, I
think particularly in the church capital C universal. And that
is we have a split opinion on whether or not work.
And we can't talk about economics without talking about work,
whether work is a blessing or whether it's a curse.
And Jesus had an awful lot to say about providing
for your household. So let me start with that. That
primary question first, which is do I view work as
(15:38):
a blessing, or do I view work as a burden?
What's God's position on this?
S10 (15:42):
Well, I think God's position is that work is a blessing,
especially when you are utilizing the talents that he gave
you when you're using your mind. And when the end
product is something that other people will say, hey, I'd
like to have that. Can I offer you something in
return for it? I mean, that's a very fulfilling, uh, endeavor. And,
(16:03):
you know, in the world in which we live, what's
the alternative to work if we just sit around and
nobody works, there's nothing to redistribute. And so we'd all starve.
So it's a necessity as well as a blessing.
S1 (16:16):
Yeah, absolutely. So we read in the scriptures that a
workman is worth his hire. Jesus talks about the parable
of the talents. Uh, here's another problem. And I find
it particularly generational, which is somewhere along the line. We
got the idea that wealth is anathema, particularly for Christians.
I don't know if we credit the movie Wall Street
with that more than what we read in scriptures, but
(16:36):
does Jesus think that wealth is a bad thing? I mean,
we go to the parable of the rich man and
we think, oh, it must be awful because, hey, nobody's
going to go through the eye of a needle, so
it's got to be bad stuff.
S10 (16:46):
Yeah. The passage referring to the difficulty for the rich
to go through or get to heaven as being as
difficult as it is for a camel to go through
the eye of a needle. That's often cited by socialists,
but they missed the point. Jesus is saying, not that
riches per se are evil and that you shouldn't aspire
to them, but that they come with temptations and a
(17:08):
good person of solid character will not let the wealth
govern him or change his priorities.
S3 (17:14):
Wow.
S1 (17:15):
Fascinating conversation built around what I think is absolutely important,
reading right from the headlines. But boy, when you walk
into the marketplace of ideas, you're going to hear this
Jesus is a socialist. You know, I actually debated and
an interesting event in Washington, D.C., a man who had
made a movie called Jesus Was a communism. My job
was to disprove that if you go to the marketplace,
would you know how to do that back after this?
S18 (17:43):
What is socialism? A trending hashtag on Twitter called Socialism
Checklist tried to answer that question, but let's look at
it more closely. Socialism is government, government centric, government heavy,
government in control. But how does this affect us? Well,
socialism is government telling you what to do. Socialism is
government giving your money to others. Socialism is government bossing
(18:06):
you around about your health care choices. Socialism is more government,
less freedom, more bureaucracy, less liberty, more spending, less money
for you, more bills, less health care. Socialism can't keep
us safe. It can't provide for us more than temporarily.
It can't help us succeed. Socialism isn't free stuff either.
(18:28):
No matter what you hear, there's no such thing as
free stuff. Somebody has to pay for it and that
somebody is always us. Politicians will promise that socialism will
make the playing field fair. It won't. It'll just take
away our opportunity, everybody's opportunity to succeed, to win. Politicians
promise socialism will take care of us. It won't. As
(18:48):
Margaret Thatcher once said, the problem with socialism is that
eventually you run out of other people's money. Socialism is
a fake, a fraud, a farce. It's an altruistically based
notion that amounts to nothing more than government taking control
of our lives. It's been tried in Cuba, in Russia,
in Greece. So what is socialism? It's always unequivocally against
our nature as human beings. It's a disaster. It's an
(19:11):
utter devastating failure.
S1 (19:13):
And yet some people think that Jesus was a socialist,
which is why Lawrence Reid, professor emeritus of the Foundation
for Economic Education, prolific author of both books and articles,
has written the book Was Jesus a Socialist? Why this
question is being asked again and why? The answer is
almost always wrong. Larry, I was thinking, just for clarification,
because I used the word communism just before the break.
(19:34):
What is the linkage between socialism and communism?
S10 (19:37):
Well, there are two peas in the same pod, essentially. Janet.
And the distinction, to the extent there is one, depends
a lot on whose usage of the terms you are
referring to. If you go back to Karl Marx, the
godfather of both socialism and communism, he did draw a distinction.
He said that communism would be the end result of
(19:59):
the evolution of history. And in that final phase, as
if he was some kind of a fortune teller, you'd
actually have government withering away, and everybody would voluntarily share
and share alike. And on the way to that, you'd
have to pass, he said, through the phase of socialism,
which he described as the dictatorship of the proletariat. And
(20:22):
during that phase, the government would be all powerful, and
it would stomp on people until it wiped out any
remaining vestige of things like self-interest and the profit motive
and private property. But the very notion that communism would
involve government withering away is one of the dumbest things
that Marx ever came up with. I mean, can you
(20:43):
imagine a group of people who have total power in
their hands, total government. And that some some point they
just say, okay, we're done, we're out of here. See
you later. I mean, that just never happens and it's
not going to happen. Uh, in actual practice these days,
there's not a whole lot of distinction. Socialism. Uh, you know,
a lot of socialists like to say, well, we're not
(21:05):
there yet. We're working on communism. But socialism in the
meantime will help us get there. But it all ends
up in the same, same government at the top, controlling
everybody approach to life.
S1 (21:16):
I'm so glad you said that. That's important for clarification.
So one more term, because these are things our friends
all across the country hear on a regular basis. Is
there a distinction to be found in the words democratic socialist?
S10 (21:28):
Uh, I don't think so. That's, uh, sort of, uh,
lip gloss on the on the pig. Uh, a lot
of socials these days realize that if they if they
advocate what socialism ultimately ends up meaning, they're not going
to get many adherents. So they say. Oh, no. What
we mean is going to be arrived at by democracy,
(21:49):
by a vote. Well, that doesn't sanctify it. I mean,
any more than, uh, you know, the southern states once
had Jim Crow laws enacted democratically. Slavery was once legal. Uh, Democratic, uh,
is just a veneer. Uh, but in the end, it
results in nothing more than a concentrated use of political force.
S1 (22:12):
Mhm. Well (877)Â 548-3675. Vicky, you're in Wisconsin. I thank you
so much for joining us. And your question please Vicky
are you there. We're going to come back to Vicky
in a little bit. Let me continue if I can.
I asked you before about Jesus talking about the rich man.
And there's a takeaway, Larry, in that, that some people think, well,
somehow richness is anathema to God, that, uh, you know,
(22:35):
you talk about taking vows of poverty, that somehow being
impoverished is a more holy, if I can put it
that way, uh, position to be in and that wealth
is to be abhorred. How do we answer that?
S10 (22:48):
Well, the very notion that Jesus would ever say that
whether or not you can be saved, whether or not
you get to heaven, depends upon how much money you
have or how little money you have flouts the very
essence of Christianity, which is something from the heart. It's
a personal choice to accept Christ as a Savior. It's not,
you know, how much material wealth you've accumulated in this world.
(23:12):
Jesus many times warned that with wealth comes temptations. But
he never said that no human can overcome them, or
that a human cannot be a good Christian who's accepted
him as their Savior and also be very productive in
the marketplace. Remember, he drove money changers from the temple.
He never drove them from a marketplace or a bank.
S1 (23:36):
That's an excellent response, by the way. I want my
friends to know that later today I'm going to be
posting on my Facebook page. Make sure you hear this.
Not my website and my Facebook page. Uh, Lawrence reads
superb encapsulation on this question. Was Jesus a socialist that
he did for Prager University? Prager University puts out some
really powerful videos. Do I know that they're good? Yes.
(23:57):
I'll tell you why. Because every time we turn around,
Facebook is trying to shut him down. Do I need
to say anything else? But Larry did a superb one
on this question. Was Jesus a socialist? I'm going to
make that easy for you to find by putting it
on my Facebook in the market with Janet Parshall. That's
the Facebook address. Like it there. We're going to come
back more on this conversation with Lawrence Reed on his book,
Was Jesus a Socialist after this? Friends, this is Janet Parshall,
(24:36):
and I want to take a moment to remind you
that today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines aren't open.
But I sure do appreciate your spending the hour with us.
And thanks so much and enjoy the rest of the program.
We live in a culture that's infatuated with the latest fads,
but Ephesians 415 calls for us to be stable, no
(24:56):
longer infants, Paul said, tossed about by the waves and
carried about by every wind of teaching on in the market.
We're exposing current trends and finding our balance by standing
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with Janet Parshall.
S19 (25:18):
When you see around the globe the mal distribution of wealth,
the the desperate plight of millions of people in underdeveloped countries.
When you see so few haves and so many have nots,
when you when you see the greed and the concentration
of power within, aren't you ever did you ever have
a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed's a
(25:40):
good idea to run on.
S20 (25:41):
Well, first of all, tell me, is there some society
you know that doesn't run on greed? Do you think
Russia doesn't run on greed? You think China doesn't run
on greed? What is greed? Of course none of us
are greedy. It's only the other fellow who's greedy. This.
The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The
(26:02):
great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus.
Einstein didn't construct his theory under order from a from
a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn't revolutionize the automobile industry that way.
In the only cases in which the masses have escaped
from the kind of grinding poverty you're talking about, the
(26:24):
only cases in recorded history are where they have had
capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know
where the masses are worse, worse off, worse off. It's
exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that,
so that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear
that there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of
(26:46):
improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold
a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by
a free enterprise system.
S19 (26:55):
It seems to reward not virtue as much as ability
to manipulate the system.
S20 (27:00):
And what does reward virtue? You think the Communist commissar
rewards virtue? Do you think a Hitler rewards virtue? Do
you think? Excuse me, if you'll pardon me. Do you
think American presidents reward virtue? Do they choose their appointees
on the basis of the virtue of the people appointed,
or on the basis of their political clout? Is it
(27:21):
really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?
You know, I think you're taking a lot of things
for granted. And just tell me where in the world
you find these angels who are going to organize society
for us. Well, I don't even trust you to do that.
S1 (27:41):
I think Milton Friedman got the best of Phil Donahue
in that little repartee. Lawrence Reed is with us. Absolutely
fascinating book in my classroom. It should be required reading
the book is entitled Was Jesus a Socialist? Why this
question is being asked again and why? The answer is
almost always wrong. Larry, by the way, is president emeritus
of the Foundation for Economic Education, the author of several books,
(28:03):
thousands of articles, and literally travels the world giving speeches.
There's something inherent in that repartee between the two that
I want to pull out. And that's this idea that
Donahue posits that somehow it's the haves and the have nots.
You write about this in the book and you call
it the gospel of envy, that somehow everybody straight across
the board should be guaranteed an equal outcome. Understanding the
(28:26):
basics and nature of man. Even if I got what
my neighbor got, I'd still want more. That's just the
way it is. But isn't this also implied in the
Ten Commandments? If I'm not supposed to covet my neighbor's goods?
Isn't that a part of this as well?
S10 (28:39):
Oh, it sure is, Janet. The eighth of the 10th commandments.
Ten commandments. Uh, very explicitly says thou shalt not covet. Uh.
Or thou shalt not steal is the eighth. I'm sorry.
The 10th is. Thou shalt not covet. I'd like to
think that maybe, uh, as God put those things together
to hand to Moses, he may have thought by the
time he got to number ten. Uh, even though I've
(29:01):
already said thou shalt not steal, some people are still
going to look for reasons to do it, and they'll
usually envy and covet first. So I better add another one.
And that, perhaps, is how number ten got there. Thou
shalt not covet if it doesn't belong to you. Uh, don't, uh,
you know, don't count the other guy's blessings. Count your own.
S1 (29:21):
Well, you know, I remember sitting in a meeting with
Jack Kemp in DC years ago where he talked about
the fact that really what we should be striving to
do in this country is to create a level playing
field of opportunity. But my ability to flourish is going
to be incumbent upon what I do. My commitment to
a work ethic. What I'm willing to sacrifice. What I'm
willing to make my goals. I can't guarantee that from
(29:43):
my neighbor, can I?
S10 (29:45):
No. Absolutely not. And each of us is a unique
result of endless personal traits and qualities, as well as
the environment in which we were raised. So you're never
going to achieve perfect equality, not in a world of
of very different people. In fact, we are so different
that no two people who have ever lived on this
(30:06):
planet have been precisely the same. The same person didn't
live twice. In other words, uh, so, uh, to be
fully who you were intended to be and who you are,
you have to have considerable degree of choice over how
you run your life. And inevitably, personal choice means some
people are going to go in this direction, others are
going to go in other directions. We're not going to
(30:27):
end up being the same. I don't lament that. I
rejoice in the differences that suggest we're being who each
of us is meant to be. As unique, unique individual.
S1 (30:38):
Um, talk to me about Axe the Book of Acts,
because I hear this cited often as look, there's an
example of the early church using a social assistance socialistic
system that they had equal distribution of wealth. Therefore, doesn't
the Bible then undergird and support the concept of socialism?
How do we respond?
S10 (30:55):
Yeah, you hear that a lot. Well, it's true that
some of the early Christians, as recorded in the book
of acts, did decide that they were going to sell
a good portion of their possessions. Not everything, in fact,
because even subsequent passages talk about them continuing to meet
in their own home. So they didn't sell their homes. But, um,
(31:15):
the fact is that that was peculiar to a unique
moment in time. It was descriptive of a of a
particular group of early Christians. There is no passage, no
statement from Jesus himself that ever says to a broader audience,
that's the way everybody should live for all time. And
in fact, that very practice of putting everything in kind
(31:36):
of a common storehouse and then dividing it up equally.
That died out very early. That was a practice used
for a very brief time, never intended to be practiced
by all people of all time, and every time it
is practiced, it falls apart.
S1 (31:51):
Yeah. Yes. And we have world history as our tutorial
on all of this, which is so interesting. You talk
about the convolution that can extrapolated out of the story
of the Good Samaritan. Um, there's so much to that story,
but seeing it as a way of somehow government controlled
programs is not a takeaway I've ever had since I
heard it the first time in Sunday school. Unpack that
for us.
S10 (32:12):
Yeah, I know there are people. I hear it all
the time who think the Good Samaritan story somehow makes
a case, at least for the welfare state, that brand
of of socialism. But keep in mind what happened in
that story as told by Jesus himself. The Samaritan came
along a road and came upon a man who was
desperately in need. He'd been beaten and robbed. And what
(32:34):
did the Samaritan do? He did not say to the man, well,
why don't you contact your social worker? Or maybe there's
a government program for you. See you later. What he
did was. And this is what made him good, he
chose to help the man of his own free will
and from his own resources. If he had done any
of those other things that socialists would normally advise, we
(32:55):
wouldn't think of him today as the Good Samaritan. We'd
think of him as the good for nothing Samaritan.
S1 (33:00):
And Larry, again, there's so many deep levels to this story,
not the least of which is a story of racism.
The Jews despise the Samaritans. It's not by happenstance. It
seems to me that Jesus has the story that the
good we put the good so often is the accent word,
but for me the takeaway is the Samaritan. Nobody else
would do this but these rotten Samaritans, which was a
racial epithet used by the Jews. When they called somebody
(33:23):
a horrible name, they would call them a Samaritan. They
would bypass Samaria. That's why Jesus and John, for meeting
the woman there, is so significant. He's tearing down so
many boundaries. But it was a story of a man
who was despised, representing a race of people despised by
the Jews doing the right thing. Jesus was preparing the
ground for the receptivity of the gospel, it seems to me.
S10 (33:43):
That's right. And, uh, there's also a passage immediately before the, uh,
story talks about what the Samaritan did of two other
people who came by. One was, uh, a kind of
church bureaucrat, uh, or, uh, synagogue bureaucrat, a Levite. And
the other one was a government bureaucrat. And, and you
might say, well, surely those guys would have helped, but
(34:05):
they didn't. It's the despised Samaritan who showed what he
truly had in his heart when he chose of his
own free will to help the man.
S1 (34:13):
Yeah. Excellent. You talked about government. You write about this
in the book. And I'm so glad, because this is
one of those passages that gets tortured ad nauseam. What
did Jesus mean when he talked about rendering under Caesar
that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's?
S10 (34:26):
Well, he certainly didn't mean, as some socialists seem to think,
that anything that Caesar claims, even if he wants everything, uh,
is somehow his for the taking. Uh, that I mean,
that would be absurd. It was a very clever response
on the part of Jesus to the Pharisees who were
trying to trick him. They held up a coin with
the image of Augustus, the emperor. Uh, Roman emperor on
(34:48):
the coin and wanted to know, what do we do
with this? Or who does it belong to? They wanted
to catch Jesus in the trap of advocating tax evasion,
and instead Jesus said, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.
And he didn't say it was Caesar's. He just said,
if it was, well, then give it to him. But
he left it for us to decide whether or not
(35:10):
that really belongs to Caesar. It was a very clever response,
and to assume from what Jesus said, that he was
endorsing anything that Caesar would do with the money, no
matter how he gets it or what he wastes it
on or spends it on is absolutely absurd.
S1 (35:25):
Could not agree more. Wow. Larry, the book is excellent.
Let me take a break and come back. The book
is called Was Jesus a Socialist? Why? This question is
being asked again and why? The why? The answer is
almost always wrong. By the way, I have posted on
my Facebook page now this multi-million viewed Prager University piece
that Larry did. He answers the question. He does a
(35:45):
superb job in a five minute video explaining exactly what
socialism is. Watch it and then send it to somebody else.
And let's get the word out there. This is an
absolute convolution of Scripture, and it's a dangerous governmental paradigm
if we really do care about other people. In fact,
on that note, when we come back, what about Jesus?
Was he a social justice warrior? We'll find out what
(36:05):
Larry Reid has to say about that when we return.
S21 (36:29):
Here in the United States, we are alarmed by the
new calls to adopt socialism in our country. America was
founded on liberty and independence and not government coercion, domination
(36:50):
and control. We are born free and we will stay free.
Tonight we renew our resolve that America will never be
a socialist country.
S1 (37:14):
As the president of the United States delivering a state
of the Union address, talking about America's declaration that we
will never be a socialist country. Lawrence Reid is with us,
president emeritus of the Foundation for Economic Education. And the
author of the book Was Jesus a Socialist? Larry, I
have to tell you, I've saved this clip. I deem
it to be historical audio because I felt like I
got hit in the solar plexus. When in the world
(37:37):
did we have to sit and hear a president make
the declaration? We would not be socialist. If a president
has to make that statement, then the tendril outreaches of
this deadly doctrine have already infiltrated our country.
S10 (37:49):
Oh, yeah. In fact, I've written an article entitled A
Virus Worse Than the One from Wuhan. And the virus
I'm talking about is socialism. It's it's a it's a cancer.
S1 (38:01):
So it goes to this idea that Jesus was a
social justice warrior. And you start this chapter by saying
that there was an editorial, it was actually a headline
written by a pastor in the Guardian that said Jesus
was on the side of the poor and the exploited.
Christian politicians should remember that we hear this again and
again and again. And quite frankly, if you're biblically illiterate,
you hear that and you think, I guess that's right,
(38:23):
I think that's right. And you follow the Pied Piper,
break this down for me, because I'm not quite sure
that Jesus was interested in economic status as was as
much as he was interested in heart conditions. So talk
to me about this.
S10 (38:35):
Well, you're absolutely right on that, Janet. Jesus was no
social justice warrior in the context of the way that
word or that phrase is used today. Today, it's really
not much more than a license for the government to
rob Peter, to pay Paul, and sometimes even to punish
people for the sins of ancestors five generations before. Jesus
(38:59):
never advocated anything like that. He was in favor of
each person getting his or her due. He was opposed
to stealing. He warned against the concentration of power. He
warned against the, uh, putting money as the priority in
your life, ahead of loving God and things like that.
But he didn't advocate the forcible redistribution of wealth, which
(39:23):
is what social justice comes, has come to mean today.
In fact, we have time. I could even cite a
passage from the Bible in that regard.
S1 (39:30):
Please, Please.
S10 (39:32):
Well, I'm thinking of the book of Luke, chapter 12,
verses 13 through 15. A man approaches Jesus and says, master,
speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
In other words, hey, how about a little social justice here?
I don't think I got a fair shake. Why don't
you equalize? Use your power to equalize the wealth here
a little bit. And Jesus did not say anything like. Well,
(39:55):
we'll take a look at it. Uh, or maybe. Yeah,
you should get more at the other guy's expense. Instead
he said, man, who made me a judge or divider
over you? Take heed and beware of covetousness. I mean,
can you imagine a socialist ever saying that they are
trying to be judges and dividers over the rest of
us all the time?
S1 (40:16):
Yeah, exactly. You make a profound statement that you say
you've used for decades. In the book. You say free
people are not equal. Equal people are not free. And
you're not talking about equality before the law. Explain the
statement to us.
S10 (40:29):
Yes, equality before the law is a is a great thing.
The idea that the law should be impartial and should
render judgment about innocence and guilt based on whether or
not you did it, not skin color and things like that.
But economic equality is a very different thing. The notion
that you should possess the same material wealth as as
other people. We are not the same one person to another.
(40:51):
We're different in terms of the talents we have. We
don't even all recognize what our respective highest or best
talent is. At the same time in our lives, we're
different in terms of our willingness to work. We're different.
Different in terms of our willingness to save. I mean,
if we equalized everybody tonight, materially speaking, we'd have inequality
(41:13):
by noon tomorrow because some people would save it and
some people would spend it. So this illusion that we
can somehow use the government to force economic equality on
us only produces disaster. It's anti-human nature, it's counterproductive, and
it certainly isn't biblical.
S1 (41:30):
You cite two theologians who you say, got it right,
and I would love to spend another hour talking about both,
but let me go to one at least. And that's C.S. Lewis.
What did he offer to this conversation?
S10 (41:42):
Oh my gosh, I love C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis, of course,
didn't spend a lot of time in his thought and
writing looking at government, but whenever he did, he was decisively, uh, insightful.
He recognized that government is the concentration of power and
that humans are flawed. We are, by definition, a fallen people.
(42:06):
And the worst thing you want to do is to
give a fallen people concentrated, uh, coercive political power the
moment they get it. It corrupts them and even takes
a good person and makes it very difficult for that
person to remain good. It's a it's a cancer. And, uh,
he felt that there was nothing biblical or scriptural about
(42:27):
concentrating power in earthly politicians who are eager to run
the lives of other people well.
S1 (42:34):
Concentrated power would be the story of the Tower of Babel,
and we know how that ended. So. Obviously there is
an opposition there. I have to ask this question, though,
just simply watching cultural trends. Larry, from your vantage point,
why has this this nefarious, insidious, dangerous and deadly idea?
I can I could go on with the adjectives. Why
(42:54):
has it found fertile soil in America today? What have
we done as a nation that has given the idea
that this is a good option?
S10 (43:02):
I think of over a hundred years ago, Janet, we
slowly began to adopt a kind of moral relativism. We were,
we were told by academics and intellectuals that truth is
a relative thing. It depends on the person. Nothing is absolute,
and we're burying the awful consequences of that.
S1 (43:22):
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. Oh, Larry,
I could spend hours and hours. There's so much more
in the book I didn't get a chance to cover.
But I do hope I've done one thing, and that
is to pique the interest of my listeners today to
get this book and to be able to answer the question.
You just heard me use a plethora of adjectives I
could have gone on. This is dangerous. And then when
you reconstruct a gospel of your own creation and subscribe
(43:45):
to Jesus, the antithesis of who he was, he was
anything but a socialist, then you not only have bad
and economic opportunities for people by putting in a system
that's deadly, but you also have horrible theology as well,
and that's almost a triple headed hydra. The book is
called Was Jesus a Socialist? Why? This question is being
asked again, and why? The answer is almost always wrong.
(44:06):
If you'll go to my Facebook page and the address
there is in the market with Janet Parshall, like me,
go to the Facebook page. And Larry did a superb
piece for Prager University that asked the asked the question
Was Jesus a socialist? And in this five minute video
gives a superb response. I posted it on my Facebook
page for your enjoyment. We'll see you next time, friends.
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
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(00:20):
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(00:40):
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(01:43):
are not open. But thanks so much for being with
us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:47):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:49):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:51):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:53):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S5 (01:57):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S6 (01:59):
This idea is not.
S7 (02:16):
Can you define socialism? Socialism. Can you define socialism?
S8 (02:24):
Can I define socialism? Probably not. If I'm being totally honest.
S9 (02:30):
Socialism. Oh, boy. I don't think I can.
S8 (02:35):
Like Social Security. Roads. Medicaid. Depending on the form that
it takes. Um, anything that sort of come together in
publicly funded and through our government would be socialism. Um,
I might be wrong. So if you make me look
like a fool on the news, I'll forgive you for it.
S1 (02:53):
What is socialism? That was CNN asking some people on
the street. And if people can't even answer the question,
then how does this idea get legs and walk all
over a country again? And why are more and more
people thinking that socialism is a good idea? I spent
part of the last couple of days studying a man
who was murdered by communists, which is, by the way,
(03:15):
the follow up to socialism because he dared to expose
what was going on under Stalin with multiple millions of
lives that were lost while they were telling the world
everything was great. We'll talk someday about the connection between
George Orwell's Animal Farm and what was going on under
the Stalin regime, but I digress. Now it's socialism, and
since we can't even define it, why are more and
more people raising the idea that Jesus himself was a socialist?
(03:38):
By the way, when all else fails, read the instructions,
the Word of God, and you'll find out the answer
to that question. But today we're going to spend the
entire hour talking about this question Was Jesus a socialist?
We're going to talk to Lawrence Reed. I am thrilled
that I get to spend the hour with him. He
is president emeritus of the Foundation for Economic Education. He's
a former professor of economics. He's the author or editor
(03:59):
of several other books, including Excuse Me, Professor Challenging the
Myths of Progressivism and Real Heroes Inspiring True Stories of Courage, Character,
and Conviction. And you know, he's one of the good
guys because he got his, uh, a special award, an
alumni achievement award from his alma mater, Grove City College,
one of the best in America. So, Lawrence, what a
(04:20):
joy to have you with us. And I want to
thank you, first of all, for the gift of your time.
I can't repay you in time. I so appreciate your
giving it to us, and your book is so timely
and so important. Your book is called Was Jesus a Socialist? Why?
This question is being asked again and why? The answer
is almost always wrong. With your background in economics and
someone who understands who Jesus is as revealed in His Word,
(04:41):
this is going to be a fascinating conversation, but I
think I need to start where CNN did, and that
is a working definition of socialism. How do you, particularly
as a prof of economics, how do you define it?
S10 (04:53):
Well, Janet, let me begin by saying thank you for
having me and for that very kind introduction and the
kind words about Grove City College. Uh, I have a
great fondness for the college that I attended, uh, what,
half a century ago. Um, but socialism, you're right, is, um,
sometimes hard to nail down, in part because even many
(05:13):
socialists don't have a hard and fast definition of it.
They'll often say, well, here it is over here, uh,
when some new regime comes into power, and then later
when it flops, uh, they say, well, that wasn't quite it.
We'll try better. We'll do better the next time. But
I'll give you a hard and fast definition of it.
Socialism is the concentration of power in government for the
(05:37):
purpose of achieving 1 or 2 or all three of
these objectives. One of them is the central planning of
the economy. Another is the coercive redistribution of wealth. And
the third is government ownership of the means of production. Uh,
socialists end up doing some of all three. And the
(05:59):
more of those things they do, the more we lose
our liberties.
S1 (06:04):
So then it raises an important question, which is when
you look at those things, at first blush, even if
you slept through high school civics, this is so antithetical
to the principles that define this country that we want
less government, not more. But I was thinking when you
were giving that definition, it raises an interesting allow me
to do what my mom used to call some spider
thinking here for a minute. It makes me want to
go back and sit in like a fly on the wall.
(06:26):
On some of the conversation with the founders. This idea,
by the way, of central planning of the economy. Wasn't
that Hamilton's approach, by the way.
S10 (06:34):
To a great degree, although I think he would be
horrified at how far even the United States has gone
down that path. But among the founders, he was the
more interventionist in the sense that he wanted a central bank.
He wanted, uh, corporate welfare. He wanted more power at
the center in Washington than men like Jefferson or Madison
(06:54):
certainly wanted. of them.
S1 (06:56):
So again, it's an old argument because we're looking for
systems that serve the people the best. And so when
you talk about those things that really just a precursory
reader tell you that they're really antithetical to the principles
of a free market of equal opportunity, not necessarily guaranteed
equal outcome. Why has this specter raised its head again?
S10 (07:17):
I think a number of reasons. One, a lot of
it is coming from academia. Uh, and uh, that goes back,
I think, to the radicals of the 60s and 70s, uh,
who are now, in many cases, professors at universities, where
quite often they have tenure. So they're protected from, uh,
market realities and where they can spout nonsense and, and
(07:41):
get a hearing. And of course, they're teaching young people who, uh,
by almost by definition, a young person in their late teens,
early 20s tend they tend to be idealistic. Uh, they, uh, are,
you know, very interested in being compassionate and helping people
and so forth. And they're told by these professors that, well,
that's what socialism is all about. It's helping, it's caring,
(08:04):
it's compassion. It's doing good things for people and maybe
even giving them free stuff. Uh, it's with a little
life experience and a little economic understanding that later some
of those young people will fortunately see the light and
realize that what their professors told them was maybe the, uh,
the velvet glove. They didn't tell them about what's inside,
(08:26):
which is the Iron Fist.
S1 (08:28):
Yeah. Wow. Is that well said? But when you ticked
off some of those things that those professors teach in
their tenured positions, you can see how even if you
have just a thin understanding of who Jesus was, you
can think, well, isn't that what he did? Isn't that
who he was? Let me take a break. And when
we come back, uh, there's so many questions in your
excellent book, was Jesus a Socialist? Why this question is
(08:49):
being asked again, and why? The answer is almost always wrong.
By the way, I want to give you a chance
to ask questions as well. 87754836758775483675. Learning to discern. Understanding
the times in which we live. Being able to answer
winsomely this exact question was Jesus a socialist? Is that
(09:11):
what the scriptures teach? True or false? We're going to
find out with Lawrence. Read more after this. When the
(09:34):
storms of life hit with hurricane force, how do you respond?
This month's truth tool is the Mediterranean Sea Rules, where
Robert Morgan writes how God will redeem our tragedies for
his purposes. Don't just survive the storms. Learn to serve
God in the midst of them. As for your copy
of the Mediterranean Sea Rules, when you give a gift
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Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S11 (10:01):
Socialism to me is.
S12 (10:03):
Freedom a democratic economy.
S13 (10:05):
A social justice.
S12 (10:06):
Liberty council so well debt a system run by the
people for the people.
S14 (10:10):
Freedom. It's oriented towards human need. Living in a world
where there's no racism.
S15 (10:14):
And intonations.
S14 (10:15):
Sustainability.
S12 (10:16):
Justice.
S16 (10:16):
A non-alienated form of labor.
S17 (10:18):
You've got a purpose in life. No war.
S12 (10:20):
Solidarity, occupy your workplace.
S13 (10:23):
Character, people.
S12 (10:24):
Emancipation.
S11 (10:26):
Collective ownership of the means of production.
S17 (10:28):
No alienation.
S16 (10:29):
Freedom to be able to be a creative individual.
S12 (10:32):
To have a sustainable planet.
S11 (10:34):
Equality between genders, races, Liberty. People before profit.
S14 (10:39):
No. Sexism. No. Homophobia.
S12 (10:41):
Harmony. Solidarity.
S14 (10:42):
Liberation.
S12 (10:43):
Mobilization.
S14 (10:44):
Agency.
S11 (10:45):
Revolution is the next step.
S16 (10:47):
A place where people can make friends, throwing off individuality
and becoming a collective.
S17 (10:51):
And you meet the best people in the world.
S12 (10:53):
Unity.
S15 (10:54):
Human liberation.
S12 (10:55):
Queer liberation, workers control. Not having to spend eight hours
a day, five days a week selling my soul utopia.
S1 (11:02):
I mean, who would be opposed to socialism, right? It's
also probably why, in a 2019 survey, more than 70%
of millennials said that they would likely vote for a socialist.
Which puts an interesting question on the table for Christ's followers.
Was Jesus a socialist? That's the new book by Lawrence Reid,
who's president emeritus of the Foundation for Economic Education. Thousands
of articles give speeches literally around the world, and he's
(11:25):
the author of this important book. Larry, what we just
heard that if that truly is what people perceive socialism
to be, it would be heaven on earth. It would
be utopia. But were there definitions really accurate based on
what you just said about one or all three of
the points enumerated in our first segment?
S10 (11:43):
No, I don't think so. And the nub of it
is this Janet. They fail to point out that the
very essence of socialism requires the use of force. If
you simply listen to the agendas of socialist candidates or
socialist policy writers. It's not a laundry list of helpful
(12:04):
suggestions for the comment box. What they propose over and
over again, are compulsory, coercive programs, because they think that
what they have in mind for you and your money
is better than what you have in mind for you
and your money. I mean, they talk about when they
try to sell socialism, they talk in the bumper sticker
(12:25):
language of compassion and caring and so forth. But you
can do that under capitalism. In fact, I would argue
there's a lot more caring and sharing and giving, uh,
under capitalism than there is under socialism. You even see
that between governments. Where does what's the flow of foreign aid?
It goes from, uh, governments of largely capitalist countries to
(12:47):
governments of largely socialist countries that always need to be
bailed out. So the difference between, say, capitalism or free
markets and socialism ultimately, is that under socialism, government has
got a gun to your head. Everything it wants to
do will be done not as a helpful suggestion, but
as a compulsory coercive program.
S1 (13:09):
So forgive the sort of pedantic nature of this question,
but there's a certain amount of hubris to that. What
makes government think it's got all of the answers? Government
is me. And so why would this select group say
we know better than you? There's an arrogance to that.
S10 (13:24):
Oh, yeah. An arrogance and an absence of an understanding
about the essence of power, which Lord Acton warned us, um,
150 years ago was, uh, corrupting at its very essence.
It's a failure to understand even the track record of
big government. I mean, if I showed up at your
house and said when you came to the door, hey,
(13:45):
I'd like to, uh, take charge of your life. And
by the way, I should tell you that I'm already
up to my eyeballs in debt and everything I touch
turns to garbage. Uh, nothing that I, uh, try to
do is ever accomplished very well or very cost effectively,
but nonetheless put me in charge of your life. You'd
laugh at me. And yet, that's what socialists are advocating
(14:07):
every day.
S1 (14:08):
So what is the elixir? Or if I can mix
my metaphors, what's the siren song here? When they did
The Man on the Street and ask those people from
Down Under what they thought of socialism. Almost all of
them talked about the fact that they didn't have to
sell their soul. They didn't have to work 9 to 5,
that it was the implied, although the word wasn't used
was basically free stuff. Who doesn't want free stuff?
S10 (14:30):
Yeah, well, that's another way of saying whether they would
admit it or not, that what they're after is not
having to serve others by offering them something of value
in the marketplace. They just want a third party, the government,
to take from other people and give to them. Um,
when you say sold my soul, in terms of selling
(14:51):
your labor and being employed by a private employer. What
you're simply doing is you're engaging in a mutually beneficial
collaborative arrangement, which results in the production of valuable goods
and services that people will willingly trade with you for.
And that's what we want in a free and peaceful society,
not a place where the government says, don't worry, we're
(15:12):
just going to take it from somebody and hand it
over to you.
S1 (15:15):
Yeah. Wow. So well said. This is a problem, I
think particularly in the church capital C universal. And that
is we have a split opinion on whether or not work.
And we can't talk about economics without talking about work,
whether work is a blessing or whether it's a curse.
And Jesus had an awful lot to say about providing
for your household. So let me start with that. That
primary question first, which is do I view work as
(15:38):
a blessing, or do I view work as a burden?
What's God's position on this?
S10 (15:42):
Well, I think God's position is that work is a blessing,
especially when you are utilizing the talents that he gave
you when you're using your mind. And when the end
product is something that other people will say, hey, I'd
like to have that. Can I offer you something in
return for it? I mean, that's a very fulfilling, uh, endeavor. And,
(16:03):
you know, in the world in which we live, what's
the alternative to work if we just sit around and
nobody works, there's nothing to redistribute. And so we'd all starve.
So it's a necessity as well as a blessing.
S1 (16:16):
Yeah, absolutely. So we read in the scriptures that a
workman is worth his hire. Jesus talks about the parable
of the talents. Uh, here's another problem. And I find
it particularly generational, which is somewhere along the line. We
got the idea that wealth is anathema, particularly for Christians.
I don't know if we credit the movie Wall Street
with that more than what we read in scriptures, but
(16:36):
does Jesus think that wealth is a bad thing? I mean,
we go to the parable of the rich man and
we think, oh, it must be awful because, hey, nobody's
going to go through the eye of a needle, so
it's got to be bad stuff.
S10 (16:46):
Yeah. The passage referring to the difficulty for the rich
to go through or get to heaven as being as
difficult as it is for a camel to go through
the eye of a needle. That's often cited by socialists,
but they missed the point. Jesus is saying, not that
riches per se are evil and that you shouldn't aspire
to them, but that they come with temptations and a
(17:08):
good person of solid character will not let the wealth
govern him or change his priorities.
S3 (17:14):
Wow.
S1 (17:15):
Fascinating conversation built around what I think is absolutely important,
reading right from the headlines. But boy, when you walk
into the marketplace of ideas, you're going to hear this
Jesus is a socialist. You know, I actually debated and
an interesting event in Washington, D.C., a man who had
made a movie called Jesus Was a communism. My job
was to disprove that if you go to the marketplace,
would you know how to do that back after this?
S18 (17:43):
What is socialism? A trending hashtag on Twitter called Socialism
Checklist tried to answer that question, but let's look at
it more closely. Socialism is government, government centric, government heavy,
government in control. But how does this affect us? Well,
socialism is government telling you what to do. Socialism is
government giving your money to others. Socialism is government bossing
(18:06):
you around about your health care choices. Socialism is more government,
less freedom, more bureaucracy, less liberty, more spending, less money
for you, more bills, less health care. Socialism can't keep
us safe. It can't provide for us more than temporarily.
It can't help us succeed. Socialism isn't free stuff either.
(18:28):
No matter what you hear, there's no such thing as
free stuff. Somebody has to pay for it and that
somebody is always us. Politicians will promise that socialism will
make the playing field fair. It won't. It'll just take
away our opportunity, everybody's opportunity to succeed, to win. Politicians
promise socialism will take care of us. It won't. As
(18:48):
Margaret Thatcher once said, the problem with socialism is that
eventually you run out of other people's money. Socialism is
a fake, a fraud, a farce. It's an altruistically based
notion that amounts to nothing more than government taking control
of our lives. It's been tried in Cuba, in Russia,
in Greece. So what is socialism? It's always unequivocally against
our nature as human beings. It's a disaster. It's an
(19:11):
utter devastating failure.
S1 (19:13):
And yet some people think that Jesus was a socialist,
which is why Lawrence Reid, professor emeritus of the Foundation
for Economic Education, prolific author of both books and articles,
has written the book Was Jesus a Socialist? Why this
question is being asked again and why? The answer is
almost always wrong. Larry, I was thinking, just for clarification,
because I used the word communism just before the break.
(19:34):
What is the linkage between socialism and communism?
S10 (19:37):
Well, there are two peas in the same pod, essentially. Janet.
And the distinction, to the extent there is one, depends
a lot on whose usage of the terms you are
referring to. If you go back to Karl Marx, the
godfather of both socialism and communism, he did draw a distinction.
He said that communism would be the end result of
(19:59):
the evolution of history. And in that final phase, as
if he was some kind of a fortune teller, you'd
actually have government withering away, and everybody would voluntarily share
and share alike. And on the way to that, you'd
have to pass, he said, through the phase of socialism,
which he described as the dictatorship of the proletariat. And
(20:22):
during that phase, the government would be all powerful, and
it would stomp on people until it wiped out any
remaining vestige of things like self-interest and the profit motive
and private property. But the very notion that communism would
involve government withering away is one of the dumbest things
that Marx ever came up with. I mean, can you
(20:43):
imagine a group of people who have total power in
their hands, total government. And that some some point they
just say, okay, we're done, we're out of here. See
you later. I mean, that just never happens and it's
not going to happen. Uh, in actual practice these days,
there's not a whole lot of distinction. Socialism. Uh, you know,
a lot of socialists like to say, well, we're not
(21:05):
there yet. We're working on communism. But socialism in the
meantime will help us get there. But it all ends
up in the same, same government at the top, controlling
everybody approach to life.
S1 (21:16):
I'm so glad you said that. That's important for clarification.
So one more term, because these are things our friends
all across the country hear on a regular basis. Is
there a distinction to be found in the words democratic socialist?
S10 (21:28):
Uh, I don't think so. That's, uh, sort of, uh,
lip gloss on the on the pig. Uh, a lot
of socials these days realize that if they if they
advocate what socialism ultimately ends up meaning, they're not going
to get many adherents. So they say. Oh, no. What
we mean is going to be arrived at by democracy,
(21:49):
by a vote. Well, that doesn't sanctify it. I mean,
any more than, uh, you know, the southern states once
had Jim Crow laws enacted democratically. Slavery was once legal. Uh, Democratic, uh,
is just a veneer. Uh, but in the end, it
results in nothing more than a concentrated use of political force.
S1 (22:12):
Mhm. Well (877)Â 548-3675. Vicky, you're in Wisconsin. I thank you
so much for joining us. And your question please Vicky
are you there. We're going to come back to Vicky
in a little bit. Let me continue if I can.
I asked you before about Jesus talking about the rich man.
And there's a takeaway, Larry, in that, that some people think, well,
somehow richness is anathema to God, that, uh, you know,
(22:35):
you talk about taking vows of poverty, that somehow being
impoverished is a more holy, if I can put it
that way, uh, position to be in and that wealth
is to be abhorred. How do we answer that?
S10 (22:48):
Well, the very notion that Jesus would ever say that
whether or not you can be saved, whether or not
you get to heaven, depends upon how much money you
have or how little money you have flouts the very
essence of Christianity, which is something from the heart. It's
a personal choice to accept Christ as a Savior. It's not,
you know, how much material wealth you've accumulated in this world.
(23:12):
Jesus many times warned that with wealth comes temptations. But
he never said that no human can overcome them, or
that a human cannot be a good Christian who's accepted
him as their Savior and also be very productive in
the marketplace. Remember, he drove money changers from the temple.
He never drove them from a marketplace or a bank.
S1 (23:36):
That's an excellent response, by the way. I want my
friends to know that later today I'm going to be
posting on my Facebook page. Make sure you hear this.
Not my website and my Facebook page. Uh, Lawrence reads
superb encapsulation on this question. Was Jesus a socialist that
he did for Prager University? Prager University puts out some
really powerful videos. Do I know that they're good? Yes.
(23:57):
I'll tell you why. Because every time we turn around,
Facebook is trying to shut him down. Do I need
to say anything else? But Larry did a superb one
on this question. Was Jesus a socialist? I'm going to
make that easy for you to find by putting it
on my Facebook in the market with Janet Parshall. That's
the Facebook address. Like it there. We're going to come
back more on this conversation with Lawrence Reed on his book,
Was Jesus a Socialist after this? Friends, this is Janet Parshall,
(24:36):
and I want to take a moment to remind you
that today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines aren't open.
But I sure do appreciate your spending the hour with us.
And thanks so much and enjoy the rest of the program.
We live in a culture that's infatuated with the latest fads,
but Ephesians 415 calls for us to be stable, no
(24:56):
longer infants, Paul said, tossed about by the waves and
carried about by every wind of teaching on in the market.
We're exposing current trends and finding our balance by standing
on the solid foundation of God's Word. To get exclusive
behind the scenes information and benefits, become a partial partner.
Call eight 7758 or go online to in the market
with Janet Parshall.
S19 (25:18):
When you see around the globe the mal distribution of wealth,
the the desperate plight of millions of people in underdeveloped countries.
When you see so few haves and so many have nots,
when you when you see the greed and the concentration
of power within, aren't you ever did you ever have
a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed's a
(25:40):
good idea to run on.
S20 (25:41):
Well, first of all, tell me, is there some society
you know that doesn't run on greed? Do you think
Russia doesn't run on greed? You think China doesn't run
on greed? What is greed? Of course none of us
are greedy. It's only the other fellow who's greedy. This.
The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The
(26:02):
great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus.
Einstein didn't construct his theory under order from a from
a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn't revolutionize the automobile industry that way.
In the only cases in which the masses have escaped
from the kind of grinding poverty you're talking about, the
(26:24):
only cases in recorded history are where they have had
capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know
where the masses are worse, worse off, worse off. It's
exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that,
so that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear
that there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of
(26:46):
improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold
a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by
a free enterprise system.
S19 (26:55):
It seems to reward not virtue as much as ability
to manipulate the system.
S20 (27:00):
And what does reward virtue? You think the Communist commissar
rewards virtue? Do you think a Hitler rewards virtue? Do
you think? Excuse me, if you'll pardon me. Do you
think American presidents reward virtue? Do they choose their appointees
on the basis of the virtue of the people appointed,
or on the basis of their political clout? Is it
(27:21):
really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?
You know, I think you're taking a lot of things
for granted. And just tell me where in the world
you find these angels who are going to organize society
for us. Well, I don't even trust you to do that.
S1 (27:41):
I think Milton Friedman got the best of Phil Donahue
in that little repartee. Lawrence Reed is with us. Absolutely
fascinating book in my classroom. It should be required reading
the book is entitled Was Jesus a Socialist? Why this
question is being asked again and why? The answer is
almost always wrong. Larry, by the way, is president emeritus
of the Foundation for Economic Education, the author of several books,
(28:03):
thousands of articles, and literally travels the world giving speeches.
There's something inherent in that repartee between the two that
I want to pull out. And that's this idea that
Donahue posits that somehow it's the haves and the have nots.
You write about this in the book and you call
it the gospel of envy, that somehow everybody straight across
the board should be guaranteed an equal outcome. Understanding the
(28:26):
basics and nature of man. Even if I got what
my neighbor got, I'd still want more. That's just the
way it is. But isn't this also implied in the
Ten Commandments? If I'm not supposed to covet my neighbor's goods?
Isn't that a part of this as well?
S10 (28:39):
Oh, it sure is, Janet. The eighth of the 10th commandments.
Ten commandments. Uh, very explicitly says thou shalt not covet. Uh.
Or thou shalt not steal is the eighth. I'm sorry.
The 10th is. Thou shalt not covet. I'd like to
think that maybe, uh, as God put those things together
to hand to Moses, he may have thought by the
time he got to number ten. Uh, even though I've
(29:01):
already said thou shalt not steal, some people are still
going to look for reasons to do it, and they'll
usually envy and covet first. So I better add another one.
And that, perhaps, is how number ten got there. Thou
shalt not covet if it doesn't belong to you. Uh, don't, uh,
you know, don't count the other guy's blessings. Count your own.
S1 (29:21):
Well, you know, I remember sitting in a meeting with
Jack Kemp in DC years ago where he talked about
the fact that really what we should be striving to
do in this country is to create a level playing
field of opportunity. But my ability to flourish is going
to be incumbent upon what I do. My commitment to
a work ethic. What I'm willing to sacrifice. What I'm
willing to make my goals. I can't guarantee that from
(29:43):
my neighbor, can I?
S10 (29:45):
No. Absolutely not. And each of us is a unique
result of endless personal traits and qualities, as well as
the environment in which we were raised. So you're never
going to achieve perfect equality, not in a world of
of very different people. In fact, we are so different
that no two people who have ever lived on this
(30:06):
planet have been precisely the same. The same person didn't
live twice. In other words, uh, so, uh, to be
fully who you were intended to be and who you are,
you have to have considerable degree of choice over how
you run your life. And inevitably, personal choice means some
people are going to go in this direction, others are
going to go in other directions. We're not going to
(30:27):
end up being the same. I don't lament that. I
rejoice in the differences that suggest we're being who each
of us is meant to be. As unique, unique individual.
S1 (30:38):
Um, talk to me about Axe the Book of Acts,
because I hear this cited often as look, there's an
example of the early church using a social assistance socialistic
system that they had equal distribution of wealth. Therefore, doesn't
the Bible then undergird and support the concept of socialism?
How do we respond?
S10 (30:55):
Yeah, you hear that a lot. Well, it's true that
some of the early Christians, as recorded in the book
of acts, did decide that they were going to sell
a good portion of their possessions. Not everything, in fact,
because even subsequent passages talk about them continuing to meet
in their own home. So they didn't sell their homes. But, um,
(31:15):
the fact is that that was peculiar to a unique
moment in time. It was descriptive of a of a
particular group of early Christians. There is no passage, no
statement from Jesus himself that ever says to a broader audience,
that's the way everybody should live for all time. And
in fact, that very practice of putting everything in kind
(31:36):
of a common storehouse and then dividing it up equally.
That died out very early. That was a practice used
for a very brief time, never intended to be practiced
by all people of all time, and every time it
is practiced, it falls apart.
S1 (31:51):
Yeah. Yes. And we have world history as our tutorial
on all of this, which is so interesting. You talk
about the convolution that can extrapolated out of the story
of the Good Samaritan. Um, there's so much to that story,
but seeing it as a way of somehow government controlled
programs is not a takeaway I've ever had since I
heard it the first time in Sunday school. Unpack that
for us.
S10 (32:12):
Yeah, I know there are people. I hear it all
the time who think the Good Samaritan story somehow makes
a case, at least for the welfare state, that brand
of of socialism. But keep in mind what happened in
that story as told by Jesus himself. The Samaritan came
along a road and came upon a man who was
desperately in need. He'd been beaten and robbed. And what
(32:34):
did the Samaritan do? He did not say to the man, well,
why don't you contact your social worker? Or maybe there's
a government program for you. See you later. What he
did was. And this is what made him good, he
chose to help the man of his own free will
and from his own resources. If he had done any
of those other things that socialists would normally advise, we
(32:55):
wouldn't think of him today as the Good Samaritan. We'd
think of him as the good for nothing Samaritan.
S1 (33:00):
And Larry, again, there's so many deep levels to this story,
not the least of which is a story of racism.
The Jews despise the Samaritans. It's not by happenstance. It
seems to me that Jesus has the story that the
good we put the good so often is the accent word,
but for me the takeaway is the Samaritan. Nobody else
would do this but these rotten Samaritans, which was a
racial epithet used by the Jews. When they called somebody
(33:23):
a horrible name, they would call them a Samaritan. They
would bypass Samaria. That's why Jesus and John, for meeting
the woman there, is so significant. He's tearing down so
many boundaries. But it was a story of a man
who was despised, representing a race of people despised by
the Jews doing the right thing. Jesus was preparing the
ground for the receptivity of the gospel, it seems to me.
S10 (33:43):
That's right. And, uh, there's also a passage immediately before the, uh,
story talks about what the Samaritan did of two other
people who came by. One was, uh, a kind of
church bureaucrat, uh, or, uh, synagogue bureaucrat, a Levite. And
the other one was a government bureaucrat. And, and you
might say, well, surely those guys would have helped, but
(34:05):
they didn't. It's the despised Samaritan who showed what he
truly had in his heart when he chose of his
own free will to help the man.
S1 (34:13):
Yeah. Excellent. You talked about government. You write about this
in the book. And I'm so glad, because this is
one of those passages that gets tortured ad nauseam. What
did Jesus mean when he talked about rendering under Caesar
that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's?
S10 (34:26):
Well, he certainly didn't mean, as some socialists seem to think,
that anything that Caesar claims, even if he wants everything, uh,
is somehow his for the taking. Uh, that I mean,
that would be absurd. It was a very clever response
on the part of Jesus to the Pharisees who were
trying to trick him. They held up a coin with
the image of Augustus, the emperor. Uh, Roman emperor on
(34:48):
the coin and wanted to know, what do we do
with this? Or who does it belong to? They wanted
to catch Jesus in the trap of advocating tax evasion,
and instead Jesus said, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.
And he didn't say it was Caesar's. He just said,
if it was, well, then give it to him. But
he left it for us to decide whether or not
(35:10):
that really belongs to Caesar. It was a very clever response,
and to assume from what Jesus said, that he was
endorsing anything that Caesar would do with the money, no
matter how he gets it or what he wastes it
on or spends it on is absolutely absurd.
S1 (35:25):
Could not agree more. Wow. Larry, the book is excellent.
Let me take a break and come back. The book
is called Was Jesus a Socialist? Why? This question is
being asked again and why? The why? The answer is
almost always wrong. By the way, I have posted on
my Facebook page now this multi-million viewed Prager University piece
that Larry did. He answers the question. He does a
(35:45):
superb job in a five minute video explaining exactly what
socialism is. Watch it and then send it to somebody else.
And let's get the word out there. This is an
absolute convolution of Scripture, and it's a dangerous governmental paradigm
if we really do care about other people. In fact,
on that note, when we come back, what about Jesus?
Was he a social justice warrior? We'll find out what
(36:05):
Larry Reid has to say about that when we return.
S21 (36:29):
Here in the United States, we are alarmed by the
new calls to adopt socialism in our country. America was
founded on liberty and independence and not government coercion, domination
(36:50):
and control. We are born free and we will stay free.
Tonight we renew our resolve that America will never be
a socialist country.
S1 (37:14):
As the president of the United States delivering a state
of the Union address, talking about America's declaration that we
will never be a socialist country. Lawrence Reid is with us,
president emeritus of the Foundation for Economic Education. And the
author of the book Was Jesus a Socialist? Larry, I
have to tell you, I've saved this clip. I deem
it to be historical audio because I felt like I
got hit in the solar plexus. When in the world
(37:37):
did we have to sit and hear a president make
the declaration? We would not be socialist. If a president
has to make that statement, then the tendril outreaches of
this deadly doctrine have already infiltrated our country.
S10 (37:49):
Oh, yeah. In fact, I've written an article entitled A
Virus Worse Than the One from Wuhan. And the virus
I'm talking about is socialism. It's it's a it's a cancer.
S1 (38:01):
So it goes to this idea that Jesus was a
social justice warrior. And you start this chapter by saying
that there was an editorial, it was actually a headline
written by a pastor in the Guardian that said Jesus
was on the side of the poor and the exploited.
Christian politicians should remember that we hear this again and
again and again. And quite frankly, if you're biblically illiterate,
you hear that and you think, I guess that's right,
(38:23):
I think that's right. And you follow the Pied Piper,
break this down for me, because I'm not quite sure
that Jesus was interested in economic status as was as
much as he was interested in heart conditions. So talk
to me about this.
S10 (38:35):
Well, you're absolutely right on that, Janet. Jesus was no
social justice warrior in the context of the way that
word or that phrase is used today. Today, it's really
not much more than a license for the government to
rob Peter, to pay Paul, and sometimes even to punish
people for the sins of ancestors five generations before. Jesus
(38:59):
never advocated anything like that. He was in favor of
each person getting his or her due. He was opposed
to stealing. He warned against the concentration of power. He
warned against the, uh, putting money as the priority in
your life, ahead of loving God and things like that.
But he didn't advocate the forcible redistribution of wealth, which
(39:23):
is what social justice comes, has come to mean today.
In fact, we have time. I could even cite a
passage from the Bible in that regard.
S1 (39:30):
Please, Please.
S10 (39:32):
Well, I'm thinking of the book of Luke, chapter 12,
verses 13 through 15. A man approaches Jesus and says, master,
speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
In other words, hey, how about a little social justice here?
I don't think I got a fair shake. Why don't
you equalize? Use your power to equalize the wealth here
a little bit. And Jesus did not say anything like. Well,
(39:55):
we'll take a look at it. Uh, or maybe. Yeah,
you should get more at the other guy's expense. Instead
he said, man, who made me a judge or divider
over you? Take heed and beware of covetousness. I mean,
can you imagine a socialist ever saying that they are
trying to be judges and dividers over the rest of
us all the time?
S1 (40:16):
Yeah, exactly. You make a profound statement that you say
you've used for decades. In the book. You say free
people are not equal. Equal people are not free. And
you're not talking about equality before the law. Explain the
statement to us.
S10 (40:29):
Yes, equality before the law is a is a great thing.
The idea that the law should be impartial and should
render judgment about innocence and guilt based on whether or
not you did it, not skin color and things like that.
But economic equality is a very different thing. The notion
that you should possess the same material wealth as as
other people. We are not the same one person to another.
(40:51):
We're different in terms of the talents we have. We
don't even all recognize what our respective highest or best
talent is. At the same time in our lives, we're
different in terms of our willingness to work. We're different.
Different in terms of our willingness to save. I mean,
if we equalized everybody tonight, materially speaking, we'd have inequality
(41:13):
by noon tomorrow because some people would save it and
some people would spend it. So this illusion that we
can somehow use the government to force economic equality on
us only produces disaster. It's anti-human nature, it's counterproductive, and
it certainly isn't biblical.
S1 (41:30):
You cite two theologians who you say, got it right,
and I would love to spend another hour talking about both,
but let me go to one at least. And that's C.S. Lewis.
What did he offer to this conversation?
S10 (41:42):
Oh my gosh, I love C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis, of course,
didn't spend a lot of time in his thought and
writing looking at government, but whenever he did, he was decisively, uh, insightful.
He recognized that government is the concentration of power and
that humans are flawed. We are, by definition, a fallen people.
(42:06):
And the worst thing you want to do is to
give a fallen people concentrated, uh, coercive political power the
moment they get it. It corrupts them and even takes
a good person and makes it very difficult for that
person to remain good. It's a it's a cancer. And, uh,
he felt that there was nothing biblical or scriptural about
(42:27):
concentrating power in earthly politicians who are eager to run
the lives of other people well.
S1 (42:34):
Concentrated power would be the story of the Tower of Babel,
and we know how that ended. So. Obviously there is
an opposition there. I have to ask this question, though,
just simply watching cultural trends. Larry, from your vantage point,
why has this this nefarious, insidious, dangerous and deadly idea?
I can I could go on with the adjectives. Why
(42:54):
has it found fertile soil in America today? What have
we done as a nation that has given the idea
that this is a good option?
S10 (43:02):
I think of over a hundred years ago, Janet, we
slowly began to adopt a kind of moral relativism. We were,
we were told by academics and intellectuals that truth is
a relative thing. It depends on the person. Nothing is absolute,
and we're burying the awful consequences of that.
S1 (43:22):
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. Oh, Larry,
I could spend hours and hours. There's so much more
in the book I didn't get a chance to cover.
But I do hope I've done one thing, and that
is to pique the interest of my listeners today to
get this book and to be able to answer the question.
You just heard me use a plethora of adjectives I
could have gone on. This is dangerous. And then when
you reconstruct a gospel of your own creation and subscribe
(43:45):
to Jesus, the antithesis of who he was, he was
anything but a socialist, then you not only have bad
and economic opportunities for people by putting in a system
that's deadly, but you also have horrible theology as well,
and that's almost a triple headed hydra. The book is
called Was Jesus a Socialist? Why? This question is being
asked again, and why? The answer is almost always wrong.
(44:06):
If you'll go to my Facebook page and the address
there is in the market with Janet Parshall, like me,
go to the Facebook page. And Larry did a superb
piece for Prager University that asked the asked the question
Was Jesus a socialist? And in this five minute video
gives a superb response. I posted it on my Facebook
page for your enjoyment. We'll see you next time, friends.
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