June 10, 2025 • 44 mins
Muslims love Jesus—but do they know who He really is? Abdu Murray will join us to explore the Islamic view of Jesus, known to Muslims as “Isa.” What does the Qur’an say about Him? Is He just a prophet, or something more? And how do Islamic beliefs about Jesus at the end of time—His return, His role in judgment—compare with what the Bible reveals? Abdu draws from his background as a former Muslim and Christian apologist to explain what Islam gets right about Jesus, what it leaves out, and why the differences aren’t minor—they’re eternal.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
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seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
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(01:03):
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(01:46):
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Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:54):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:58):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S4 (02:03):
17 years, the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a truce.
S3 (02:21):
Hi, friends.
S1 (02:22):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you
for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're going to
do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't run screaming
from the room. In other words, you often hear me
quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such a great
word picture. He refers to the Bible as the straight
stick of truth. And when you think about it, it's brilliant,
is it not? Because you use it as a plumb
(02:43):
line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas, ideas
that aren't in alignment with the Word of God? I
also think it's important to do this because it helps
us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing. Don't
use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell me
that it's fire in your bones and you can't wait
to share the good news with somebody else. And so
(03:03):
if you understand where someone else is coming from, while
their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture, it
helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace filled narrative,
to be able to talk to that person about Jesus Christ. Right?
So that's what we're going to do this hour, and
we're going to focus particularly in on Islam. And our
friend Abdul Murray is in the house, just loves spending
time with this man. Oh, he keeps me on my toes.
(03:24):
He makes my synapses snap the entire hour. And I
bet he does it for you too. He's the president
of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers the credibility of
the gospel message as a speaker and a writer. He's
authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand Central Question, and
his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion. And he
was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would you have
(03:47):
had the staying power to seek Jesus for nine years? Well,
this man was deeply curious and had a hunger in
his heart. So for nine years he turned over all
kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones, theological ones, scientific ones,
until he finally found himself at the foot of the cross,
accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom! Old things pass away.
All things become new. And now this lawyer by training
(04:09):
is an advocate for the King. And he does a
superb job just doing that. So vis a vis embraced
the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast. And yeah, I'm
you know, Paul says don't build on another man's work.
I'm not going to. But I'll tell you what, I'll
pick his brains, because what I listen to on his podcast,
I think, is so good that if you're not following
Embrace the Truth in their podcast, this is a catalyst
(04:29):
for you to get even more interested and start listening
to Abdul and his conversations on a more regular basis.
So he recently was talking about Islam and what Muslims
think about Jesus and Abdul. The warmest of welcomes. You
made a statement that I thought was so interesting, and
I bet it's going to challenge anybody who's listening with
both ears on the side of their head right now.
And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now, I can't
(04:52):
tell you. I know a whole lot of Christians that
would say Christians love Muhammad. So I don't know that
I can tip that back and forth and say it's
equal in either camp. But to say that a muslim
loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam, a religion,
created hundreds of years after Christianity that there would be
an affinity at all for Jesus. When Muhammad is the
(05:13):
one true prophet to the followers of Islam. So talk
to me about the fact that they love Jesus. I
find that interesting and intriguing.
S5 (05:20):
Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to
be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh,
thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot
of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam
is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and
in some ways, that's actually true. There is the sense
in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor
(05:41):
to religions that are already established in the Middle East,
like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was,
was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh,
in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists.
It's a God is greater. In other words, God is
greater than the things you guys say about him because
(06:01):
you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's
a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade
of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that
sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and
a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah,
all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus,
(06:24):
they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love
him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran
has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's it's
called Sura. Mariam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran.
Mariam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so
the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary
(06:46):
and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary,
from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as
a prophet of God who warned people to come back
to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact,
they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he
actually preached Islam up to return to the dietary and
(07:06):
other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally, and
to get away from any kind of paganism or other
kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had
gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered
him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus
performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least
of which is his virgin birth, but also that as
(07:28):
a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh,
sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's
honor that he was, in fact, a gift of God,
not the result of some, you know, sort of tawdry
thing she had done. Um, and he heals the sick.
He even raises the dead, um, and does all these things.
So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one
(07:52):
of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's
a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of
Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So
for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they
love Jesus.
S1 (08:04):
Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So
you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles.
Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles?
S5 (08:14):
So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand
of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle
that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic
office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad
was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him
the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate,
(08:35):
and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and
content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man.
It had to be a miraculous This revelation to him.
In fact, they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship
of the Quran. They'd say it's completely God that he
was not inspired. Rather, he heard words and he simply
(08:57):
said what he heard. So he is like this mouthpiece.
But other than that, according to strict Islam, there are
no miracles. Now, there are some folk areas of Islam
where there are miracles, but strictly speaking, there are none
attributed to Muhammad other than the Quran itself.
S3 (09:11):
Wow.
S1 (09:12):
I bet you just heard a boatload of things you
never heard before. That's why I love spending time with Abdul.
He's such a great teacher. We are going to continue
to talk about what our Muslim friends think about Jesus.
I think it's important for us to understand, and I
think it also equips us when we're loving our Muslim neighbors.
And we want to share the good news of the
gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again, I've got a
link to embrace the truth. So much excellent resource material
(09:35):
there and a podcast dealing specifically with this. I've got
a link in my info page as well. Much more
with Abdul Murray right after this. Have you ever wondered
(09:56):
why music moves us so deeply? Or why beauty takes
our breath away? My Truth Tool this month is a
thought provoking book that explores those moments of wonder we
all encounter. It's called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how
ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary biblical truths.
Ask for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when
you give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go to in
(10:19):
the market with Janet Parshall. Abdul Murray is with us
for the entire hour. We always look forward to our
regular conversations with him. He is president of Embrace the
Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things he does
through his ministry, he's got a fabulous podcast. So he
had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah,
(10:41):
but not God, question mark. And so we're doing a
side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the
first part of our conversation, and I bet you have
as well. So let me pick up where we left off.
So I find this interesting and and I wonder if
in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension
or it's just moving past it, because the singular role
of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does
(11:03):
miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad
has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up
being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think,
and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective,
I would think someone who could do miracles would already,
in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my
(11:25):
attention over someone who was not. Is that not a
tension in the Islamic world?
S5 (11:30):
Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the
reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran, actually attributed
to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So,
as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically
say Muhammad performed some miracles. And in fact there are
several places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is, um, uh,
where there is a, um, I'm looking it up real quick.
(11:53):
There is a, a section, there's a couple of verses
where the Quran says, for example, in um, the 13th chapter,
seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some
sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um,
in other words, if only there was something that we
could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only
(12:13):
a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come
back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various, uh,
commentators who made a point that there is no there
is no miracle story in the Quran except for these
vague references. For example, in the 17th chapter, verse one, um,
there is this reference to what's called mirage, which is
(12:35):
basically a night journey where um, according to Muslim tradition, Schedule. Uh,
Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all
the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock
is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims.
And he was taken there in a single night by
a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the
only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17,
(12:57):
where it says, uh, glory to God who took his
servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant
for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to
the farthest mosque whose precincts we blessed in order that
we might show him some of our signs or some
of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's
no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from
chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said
(13:19):
that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say
that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about
Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he
took his finger in the sky and he traced out
the moon, and he split the moon with his finger.
Now that is not considered necessarily a a strong, uh,
claim or evidence, but because of the tension, you just
mentioned a lot of these. Um, a lot of these
(13:42):
miracles have to be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most
recent prophet before him was Jesus, and he did a
bunch of miracles. He was born of a virgin and
in fact was an even greater tension is that the
Quran refers to Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer
to Muhammad that way or anybody else, frankly, as that way.
In fact, Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort
(14:04):
of implied way, for forgiveness at the end of his life.
S1 (14:07):
Wow. The tension just keeps growing. So. And again, thank
you for that superb explanation about that. Because if again
hierarchical just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus
does miracles, Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless.
Jesus is. And yet you decide, if I can put
it this way, to go to a lesser God, that's
(14:29):
I find that interesting to me. So what is the
attractiveness if the things that Jesus can do, um, are
not identified or affirmed in Quranic writing. Why would one
then subscribe to Muhammad as opposed to Jesus?
S5 (14:44):
Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is
just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one
of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad has a
tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically. And he was
an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this
growing movement of Muhammad amongst the pagan Arabs of the
time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop doing that. Um,
(15:07):
he had a political affinity, uh, or even a theological
affinity to a degree with Christians and Jews in the
beginning of his prophetic career, as it were. Um, by saying,
Christians and Jews, we all believe in the same God.
And I affirm your prophets and all these things. And
so some were converting to Islam, uh, by by choice,
not necessarily by force. Uh, it was when they began
(15:29):
to resist him, um, because he was claiming an office
that was at least as good, if not higher than
Jesus that he, the Quran, starts to turn on them
and Muhammad starts to turn on them and say that
Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures. It's
actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So you
have this political charismatic thing, but then later on, I
think what happens is, is you have this sociological development,
(15:51):
and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't
have necessarily a historical. According to Hoyle, this is how
this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it,
based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad
is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially,
specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is.
He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people. Uh,
(16:15):
in light of the the Jews and the Romans of
the time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they
had prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes
an Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line,
the line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith.
And so in this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to
have this affinity for him, there has to be a
(16:37):
loyalty and a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality,
because even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says
we make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction.
They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the
last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not
greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater.
(16:58):
Yet Muslims will take great offence if someone makes fun
of Muhammad but not Jesus. They're fine with Jesus being
made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because
there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on
ethnicity and sociology.
S1 (17:13):
Well, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay?
This isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so
there is a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that
has to be played around this when we come back. Abdul,
I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet
there are a whole lot of people who could say. Well,
I well, I didn't even know if what? Muhammad was real.
(17:34):
Tell me a little bit about his biography that he
is a historian, historically substantiated person that was in history.
Tell me something about his background. Abdul Murray is with us.
The purpose of all of this is to get fire
in your bones so you can share Jesus with your
Muslim friends back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray,
(17:59):
president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way.
Let me run some titles past you again. Saving truth,
Grand Central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book,
More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a
great podcast as well. All of that can be found
at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to
the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I
(18:21):
guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth.org.
So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly
what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I
was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity
of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence, and
all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdul,
about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the
(18:43):
parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed?
And if the answer is yes, what can you tell
us about him?
S5 (18:50):
Well, um, well, the surprisingly little, actually, that specifically mentions
Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd
expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh,
with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other peoples, um,
various religious groups or um, even political groups with whom
(19:11):
he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources,
not something I would think that's nothing like the the
riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself,
but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some
you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly
related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person
like mentioned his name. But there's a lot of reference to,
you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind
(19:33):
of thing. So you do see some of that. Um,
largely what we have in terms of the understanding of
the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the
hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is
like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith.
Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss.
It also means something that happens like a an event.
(19:54):
And so the hadith are a collection and there's like
six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions
about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um,
brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus
and such a person heard thus, and such a person
say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said,
(20:16):
so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um,
and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said,
I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a
lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and
there are various versions that are spurious. There are things
that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled.
There's other things that likely did happen, but we have
(20:38):
this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have
is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real
sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150
years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they
didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral
form and they weren't written down in any authoritative way.
And so there was compilations that had to be collected
(21:00):
about Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can,
with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person.
He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he
was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a
at least a political leader who had theological heft to
the things he was saying that gave him a religious
movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well.
(21:23):
So I think we can say that, um, so I
think we can say that with, relative relative certainty. I
don't think the same certainty exists with that claim, as
does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially Jesus
and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad was
born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500 years
(21:44):
after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um,
outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus,
who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years
before him. So that's just interesting all by itself.
S1 (21:57):
So much again. And I bet everybody is just as
being impacted as much as I am about information they
really didn't know before. So it raises a couple of questions.
And I ask you this because this is not academic
for you. You were on a nine year journey and
there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity
of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before,
that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind
(22:19):
of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He
gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc.,
going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well,
there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of within
the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there
is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I
(22:40):
find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem,
because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to
affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling
block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically,
but does that make sense?
S5 (22:55):
No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually.
And I want to say that there are there are
some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius
or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the,
of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the
movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh,
like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh,
(23:16):
in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references
to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways,
but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though,
when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you
think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um,
and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more
(23:37):
information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the
same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's
this influential. We should see tons of information about him
from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do,
we have, we have we have plenty. But we wouldn't
see the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about
their conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none.
(23:58):
He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You
have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there
to be at least something from his enemies that would
either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And
we have no, we have almost none of that.
S3 (24:13):
Wow.
S1 (24:13):
Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions.
I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean
break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us.
This is why we just love when he comes to visit.
He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he?
And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just
a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's
much more than that. If you want to become all
things to all people so that by all means, some
(24:36):
might be saved, I want to know because when I'm
sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend
or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam,
I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did
when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want
to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I
hope you are too back after this. What's the goal
(24:59):
of in the market? I'll tell you in the market
equips men and women to think critically and act biblically.
Why do we do this? So that we can be
confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are
you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner
today and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while
making an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet, 58
or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
(25:24):
Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry.
He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a
speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job.
He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand
Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a
White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He
(25:44):
contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and had
embraced the truth. He also has a podcast, which he
did recently on Jesus and Islam. Had to get that
off air. And now we go back to what he
was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting
you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder
(26:06):
of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that
precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then?
S5 (26:12):
Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I
want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, Is
Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically
to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although
Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that
Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran
actually describes them as that way is that when they
(26:34):
eat of the fruit that they should not be eating,
they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's
reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're
human beings and his his not reward, but his gift
to them, uh, instead of just casting them out of
the garden, was to give them a way back, to
come back into God's good graces, which was what's called
the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um,
(26:57):
which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh,
sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to
not only believe but also follow and that that is
consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah
to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist,
(27:19):
Jesus himself, and eventually Muhammad. So technically speaking, a muslim
would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God
is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now,
having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that
the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed but
came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption
that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad
(27:42):
is the founder of Islam in the sense that he
established a religion and was the most successful of the
prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um,
the Quran, according to Muslims has never been changed and
the message has stayed the same. And he brought us
back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all
the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and
(28:05):
and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually
corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And
so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which
is why Muhammad? And why is he so special? Well,
that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes,
of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very
first believer in Islam.
S1 (28:26):
Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this when
we came back after the break and let me ask
it now, your knowledge just flows out of you on this, Abdul.
You can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran.
Is this because you studied this from a child growing up,
or did you study this, uh, to go deep into
it as you were on your nine year exploration that
(28:47):
took you to the cross?
S5 (28:49):
Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um,
I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um,
about Islam. And I actually took a lot of that
stuff and went further with it because I had sort
of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a
child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff.
It was when I was in college when I really
(29:09):
began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because
it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition
and there's a whole story behind that. But then I
began to look even more into it. And alongside Christianity
and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems, just to
get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um,
and so during that journey, I began to take this
deeper dive deeper look into the foundations of the thing
(29:32):
that I had believed my whole life. I had a
foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was
developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And
is that after that nine year journey was complete and
I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to
look even further because what I wanted to do was
to make sure that one I had made the right decision.
And two, I wanted to make sure that if I,
(29:53):
if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity
and this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to
do it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the
great Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And
when you understand this stuff and you really dive into it,
you begin to be able to give a better clarity
because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I
(30:16):
have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I
preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in
my heart because of my own background. So I wanted
to learn more about them, and I think that's the
most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at
someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do
you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not.
You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys
who I like the detail and I like to do this.
(30:38):
And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey
is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on
this stuff, in these debates and these kind of conversations,
people bring up things you didn't necessarily know and you
have to go and dive into it ahead of time
or in reaction to it. And so a lot of
what I know is because of that as well.
S1 (30:56):
Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong,
but my subjective observation on this is that there is,
within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I
don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in
my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk
about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know,
travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that
(31:18):
when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an
ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim,
and it has to be changed if you become a Christian,
and then that changes to a C, and that doesn't
come without consequences. And so it is more than just
making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going
to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through
your official identification. Who's you are. But for Muslims, what
(31:40):
I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm
going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose
it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand
it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing,
and very often what I see was or what I
saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather,
and it just went down and there was no aha
moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven.
(32:03):
It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household.
That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be.
That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now,
is that an? Is that an obtuse observation or is
there some truth in that?
S5 (32:17):
No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um,
there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um,
a born, a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim,
and it is the world that changes you into a
Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or
a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate
sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um,
(32:43):
and then that tradition is fostered because the East and
the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture,
which has its benefits. You know, it's got its tremendous benefits.
Its tremendous benefit is that you do that which brings honor,
and you avoid that which brings shame, uh, to your
community and to your family and to the country and
then to the religion itself. Now, that's good in one sense,
(33:05):
because what you do is you think of others before
you think of yourself. It's not so individualistic that you
don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs, your actions,
and these kind of things on others. The shadow side
and everything's got a shadow side this side of heaven,
the shadow side is that you're willing to believe false things,
even things that you might know are false, because believing
(33:25):
otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes. And so, yes,
that is exactly. You're hitting the nail right on the head.
One of the reasons why it's so difficult to break
in to the Muslim heart and the Muslim mind with
the good news, and it is great news, is that
they see the bad news. And the bad news is,
if I accept this, I could lose everything. I could
lose my sense of community, my sense of identity. I
(33:47):
could lose family. I could even possibly lose my life.
And so oftentimes we say John 316 and it sounds
so fantastic, but they're thinking all the negative consequences. So yeah,
that's you've hit it, you've nailed it. And that's exactly
what happens. It's not obtuse. It's actually concrete. And by
the way, that's not just a middle eastern regional thing
for all the Muslims that are here in the United
States and across the world, whether it's in the Western
(34:11):
world or in the Muslim world. Um, that's a that's
a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah.
I'll tell you a quick story. Very short. I was
witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every
single thing I was saying is true in his own journey.
And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked
down at his shoes as if the answers to all
the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he
(34:33):
would not look up. And he said under his breath,
my father has never told me he's proud of me,
and that he loves me. And if I become if
I become a Christian, he never will. And that was
his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part.
S1 (34:45):
Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my
eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if
anybody is as old as I am, let me give
you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying.
So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference,
and it was the middle of the conflict of the
Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw
it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't
(35:06):
have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was
talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that
symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I
don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance
of that. I remember the president kind of made some
offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that
after it happened, but it was really he was angry
at what was happening in that part of the world,
(35:27):
and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe
at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the
other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul.
And I bet my music's going to play. But let
me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful
deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you
overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone
that had to be the heaviest of all is who
(35:48):
am I going to be in this family if I
accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but
I won't be one of them. I, as a son,
do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to
my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's
choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in
my own family. Now the music's playing, so let me
(36:08):
get your reaction to that. And maybe this is a blessing.
Think about that. Because how often in the United States,
when you decide to say, yes, he's Lord, I want
him as Savior in my life? How often do we
think and it will happen? In some cases, I grant you.
But does it happen to the same extent as it does,
for example, in the Islamic and quite honestly, in the
Jewish world as well? They'll hold funerals for Jews who
(36:29):
come to faith in Jesus Christ sometime because you're dead
to me, because you came to Christ. So this is
something to think about when you're sharing that good news
that there's a price to be paid sometimes, and we
should always remember that back after this. Embrace the truth.
(36:56):
That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace the truth.
Embrace the truth. And it's one of those deliciously rich
sites with tons of information, links to books and articles
that was written and podcasts that he does. So check
it out, please. I want you to know and love
this ministry. And germane to our conversation this hour is
I've got a direct link to a recent podcast he
(37:16):
did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot dot dot,
but not God. Question mark. And there's so much more.
By the way, it's actually a two part. But I
want you to start this, and then you're going to
be hungry enough to want to get the second part.
But I wanted to go on a very personal level
about the idea, and I thank you for explaining this
idea that there is this generational impact, this deep bonds
(37:37):
of familial connection, that you're born a muslim. And so you, Abdu,
this beautifully eloquent man for the gospel and yet passionate
about your family and a very observant Muslim that concluded
after not one minute, but nine years of investigation and
part of those deep night of the soul moments had
(37:58):
to be, God, what are you going to do with
me and my family? How did you resolve that?
S5 (38:04):
Well, that's why I took nine years. I've often put
it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it.
And I want to sort of start the response by
this is that it took me nine years to, to
to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence
was hard to find. I found all the evidence I
needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't
find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um,
(38:26):
but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient
answers to give my life to Jesus within about two
years of that search. Um, but it took seven more
years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and
rethink it and mull it over a little bit more
to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes
all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was
(38:50):
it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was
an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going
to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um,
who was is it going to be to my family,
in my community? Who was I going to be? And
so how I put it is this. The answers were
not hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um,
and that's why the ministry is called that, by the way.
That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer
(39:12):
was hard to. The answers were not hard to find,
but they are hard to embrace. And so part of
our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is
to make good people wish it were true, and then
show them that it is. You show them the beauty
of it. And so it took me this long, because
I had to be so compelled that I was willing
to risk so much. For me, it just this has
(39:33):
to be true. If this is even remotely close to,
to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I
need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly
and the sort of corporeal consequences were too great. Um,
that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant
that in my mind, they were. So that's why it
took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something.
(39:55):
And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis
says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself.
He calls himself the most reluctant convert.
S1 (40:04):
Yes.
S5 (40:05):
He says he said he said if you look for truth,
you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you
look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to
begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I
realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while.
But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity,
(40:25):
I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will
ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my
own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me.
And I knew that would be a despair. And when
I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that
all the things I was hoping was true in my
former worldview were actually true in the gospel message. Um,
(40:48):
I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was
to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing
for him to say is, he said that the great
thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go.
His love for us does not. It is not wearied
by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is
quite relentless in its pursuit that its determination that we
(41:08):
shall be cured of those sins at whatever cost to us,
at whatever cost to him. So I realized something that
other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know, any other ism
and schism you can think of, they ask you to
make a change, but at your expense and your expense alone.
The Christian message is that God causes the change at
(41:33):
his expense, and therefore, what cost could I possibly pay
that would that would, that would even compare to the
cost he paid for me? How could I possibly say
no to him? How could I possibly look at that
cross and say, not good enough? I might get yelled at.
I mean, how could I possibly do that? And so
(41:54):
that's that's a big part of it, is that at
some point I had to be willing to give that up.
And that's why Jesus says so beautifully in several places
and in various ways that you have to die to yourself.
He who loses his life for my sake will find it. Um,
I can tell you, it's been 25 years, uh, since
I became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years
since I became a believer. And in that quarter century
(42:16):
when it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been
the most worth it.
S1 (42:22):
Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement
that you just made because there is this tension, because
not just your nuclear but your extended family as well.
Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or
for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can
you not supersedes the temporal?
S5 (42:42):
You know, I would be lying if I didn't say
that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan
saying something in my ear that says, just say this
and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um,
I remember distinctly, in the middle of the throes of
some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by
the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh,
(43:03):
in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means
one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you
just say you are? And what you really mean is
you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave
it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no,
because that would be lying. And how could I forsake
truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I
(43:25):
couldn't do it?
S3 (43:27):
Wow. Wow.
S1 (43:29):
And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I
feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is
why I love our conversations that you can address the
the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that
take over. And I hope what it's created number one
actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it
puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back
to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in
(43:50):
your bones. Are you willfully volitionally asking the Lord for
opportunities to share the good news? And if not, why not?
How can you keep this good news to yourself? How
could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them?
Acts writes Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping
that there's now more fire in your bones to go
out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed,
(44:12):
but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared.
You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit
before you talk to people. But then also, I hope
this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not
willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might
not be the sort of angst another person has to
go through before they say yes. For things like the
generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family,
(44:34):
there's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires.
And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations,
I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to
call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank
you friends. We'll see you next time on In the
market with Janet Parshall.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
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you can go online to in the market with Janet
(01:24):
Parshall and you're also on the website, consider becoming a
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or the website in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider
(01:46):
becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool.
Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:54):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:58):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S4 (02:03):
17 years, the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a truce.
S3 (02:21):
Hi, friends.
S1 (02:22):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you
for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're going to
do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't run screaming
from the room. In other words, you often hear me
quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such a great
word picture. He refers to the Bible as the straight
stick of truth. And when you think about it, it's brilliant,
is it not? Because you use it as a plumb
(02:43):
line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas, ideas
that aren't in alignment with the Word of God? I
also think it's important to do this because it helps
us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing. Don't
use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell me
that it's fire in your bones and you can't wait
to share the good news with somebody else. And so
(03:03):
if you understand where someone else is coming from, while
their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture, it
helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace filled narrative,
to be able to talk to that person about Jesus Christ. Right?
So that's what we're going to do this hour, and
we're going to focus particularly in on Islam. And our
friend Abdul Murray is in the house, just loves spending
time with this man. Oh, he keeps me on my toes.
(03:24):
He makes my synapses snap the entire hour. And I
bet he does it for you too. He's the president
of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers the credibility of
the gospel message as a speaker and a writer. He's
authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand Central Question, and
his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion. And he
was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would you have
(03:47):
had the staying power to seek Jesus for nine years? Well,
this man was deeply curious and had a hunger in
his heart. So for nine years he turned over all
kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones, theological ones, scientific ones,
until he finally found himself at the foot of the cross,
accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom! Old things pass away.
All things become new. And now this lawyer by training
(04:09):
is an advocate for the King. And he does a
superb job just doing that. So vis a vis embraced
the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast. And yeah, I'm
you know, Paul says don't build on another man's work.
I'm not going to. But I'll tell you what, I'll
pick his brains, because what I listen to on his podcast,
I think, is so good that if you're not following
Embrace the Truth in their podcast, this is a catalyst
(04:29):
for you to get even more interested and start listening
to Abdul and his conversations on a more regular basis.
So he recently was talking about Islam and what Muslims
think about Jesus and Abdul. The warmest of welcomes. You
made a statement that I thought was so interesting, and
I bet it's going to challenge anybody who's listening with
both ears on the side of their head right now.
And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now, I can't
(04:52):
tell you. I know a whole lot of Christians that
would say Christians love Muhammad. So I don't know that
I can tip that back and forth and say it's
equal in either camp. But to say that a muslim
loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam, a religion,
created hundreds of years after Christianity that there would be
an affinity at all for Jesus. When Muhammad is the
(05:13):
one true prophet to the followers of Islam. So talk
to me about the fact that they love Jesus. I
find that interesting and intriguing.
S5 (05:20):
Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to
be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh,
thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot
of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam
is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and
in some ways, that's actually true. There is the sense
in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor
(05:41):
to religions that are already established in the Middle East,
like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was,
was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh,
in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists.
It's a God is greater. In other words, God is
greater than the things you guys say about him because
(06:01):
you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's
a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade
of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that
sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and
a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah,
all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus,
(06:24):
they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love
him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran
has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's it's
called Sura. Mariam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran.
Mariam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so
the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary
(06:46):
and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary,
from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as
a prophet of God who warned people to come back
to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact,
they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he
actually preached Islam up to return to the dietary and
(07:06):
other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally, and
to get away from any kind of paganism or other
kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had
gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered
him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus
performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least
of which is his virgin birth, but also that as
(07:28):
a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh,
sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's
honor that he was, in fact, a gift of God,
not the result of some, you know, sort of tawdry
thing she had done. Um, and he heals the sick.
He even raises the dead, um, and does all these things.
So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one
(07:52):
of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's
a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of
Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So
for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they
love Jesus.
S1 (08:04):
Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So
you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles.
Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles?
S5 (08:14):
So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand
of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle
that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic
office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad
was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him
the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate,
(08:35):
and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and
content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man.
It had to be a miraculous This revelation to him.
In fact, they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship
of the Quran. They'd say it's completely God that he
was not inspired. Rather, he heard words and he simply
(08:57):
said what he heard. So he is like this mouthpiece.
But other than that, according to strict Islam, there are
no miracles. Now, there are some folk areas of Islam
where there are miracles, but strictly speaking, there are none
attributed to Muhammad other than the Quran itself.
S3 (09:11):
Wow.
S1 (09:12):
I bet you just heard a boatload of things you
never heard before. That's why I love spending time with Abdul.
He's such a great teacher. We are going to continue
to talk about what our Muslim friends think about Jesus.
I think it's important for us to understand, and I
think it also equips us when we're loving our Muslim neighbors.
And we want to share the good news of the
gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again, I've got a
link to embrace the truth. So much excellent resource material
(09:35):
there and a podcast dealing specifically with this. I've got
a link in my info page as well. Much more
with Abdul Murray right after this. Have you ever wondered
(09:56):
why music moves us so deeply? Or why beauty takes
our breath away? My Truth Tool this month is a
thought provoking book that explores those moments of wonder we
all encounter. It's called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how
ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary biblical truths.
Ask for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when
you give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go to in
(10:19):
the market with Janet Parshall. Abdul Murray is with us
for the entire hour. We always look forward to our
regular conversations with him. He is president of Embrace the
Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things he does
through his ministry, he's got a fabulous podcast. So he
had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah,
(10:41):
but not God, question mark. And so we're doing a
side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the
first part of our conversation, and I bet you have
as well. So let me pick up where we left off.
So I find this interesting and and I wonder if
in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension
or it's just moving past it, because the singular role
of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does
(11:03):
miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad
has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up
being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think,
and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective,
I would think someone who could do miracles would already,
in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my
(11:25):
attention over someone who was not. Is that not a
tension in the Islamic world?
S5 (11:30):
Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the
reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran, actually attributed
to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So,
as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically
say Muhammad performed some miracles. And in fact there are
several places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is, um, uh,
where there is a, um, I'm looking it up real quick.
(11:53):
There is a, a section, there's a couple of verses
where the Quran says, for example, in um, the 13th chapter,
seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some
sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um,
in other words, if only there was something that we
could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only
(12:13):
a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come
back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various, uh,
commentators who made a point that there is no there
is no miracle story in the Quran except for these
vague references. For example, in the 17th chapter, verse one, um,
there is this reference to what's called mirage, which is
(12:35):
basically a night journey where um, according to Muslim tradition, Schedule. Uh,
Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all
the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock
is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims.
And he was taken there in a single night by
a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the
only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17,
(12:57):
where it says, uh, glory to God who took his
servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant
for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to
the farthest mosque whose precincts we blessed in order that
we might show him some of our signs or some
of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's
no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from
chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said
(13:19):
that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say
that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about
Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he
took his finger in the sky and he traced out
the moon, and he split the moon with his finger.
Now that is not considered necessarily a a strong, uh,
claim or evidence, but because of the tension, you just
mentioned a lot of these. Um, a lot of these
(13:42):
miracles have to be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most
recent prophet before him was Jesus, and he did a
bunch of miracles. He was born of a virgin and
in fact was an even greater tension is that the
Quran refers to Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer
to Muhammad that way or anybody else, frankly, as that way.
In fact, Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort
(14:04):
of implied way, for forgiveness at the end of his life.
S1 (14:07):
Wow. The tension just keeps growing. So. And again, thank
you for that superb explanation about that. Because if again
hierarchical just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus
does miracles, Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless.
Jesus is. And yet you decide, if I can put
it this way, to go to a lesser God, that's
(14:29):
I find that interesting to me. So what is the
attractiveness if the things that Jesus can do, um, are
not identified or affirmed in Quranic writing. Why would one
then subscribe to Muhammad as opposed to Jesus?
S5 (14:44):
Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is
just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one
of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad has a
tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically. And he was
an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this
growing movement of Muhammad amongst the pagan Arabs of the
time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop doing that. Um,
(15:07):
he had a political affinity, uh, or even a theological
affinity to a degree with Christians and Jews in the
beginning of his prophetic career, as it were. Um, by saying,
Christians and Jews, we all believe in the same God.
And I affirm your prophets and all these things. And
so some were converting to Islam, uh, by by choice,
not necessarily by force. Uh, it was when they began
(15:29):
to resist him, um, because he was claiming an office
that was at least as good, if not higher than
Jesus that he, the Quran, starts to turn on them
and Muhammad starts to turn on them and say that
Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures. It's
actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So you
have this political charismatic thing, but then later on, I
think what happens is, is you have this sociological development,
(15:51):
and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't
have necessarily a historical. According to Hoyle, this is how
this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it,
based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad
is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially,
specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is.
He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people. Uh,
(16:15):
in light of the the Jews and the Romans of
the time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they
had prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes
an Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line,
the line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith.
And so in this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to
have this affinity for him, there has to be a
(16:37):
loyalty and a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality,
because even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says
we make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction.
They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the
last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not
greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater.
(16:58):
Yet Muslims will take great offence if someone makes fun
of Muhammad but not Jesus. They're fine with Jesus being
made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because
there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on
ethnicity and sociology.
S1 (17:13):
Well, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay?
This isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so
there is a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that
has to be played around this when we come back. Abdul,
I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet
there are a whole lot of people who could say. Well,
I well, I didn't even know if what? Muhammad was real.
(17:34):
Tell me a little bit about his biography that he
is a historian, historically substantiated person that was in history.
Tell me something about his background. Abdul Murray is with us.
The purpose of all of this is to get fire
in your bones so you can share Jesus with your
Muslim friends back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray,
(17:59):
president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way.
Let me run some titles past you again. Saving truth,
Grand Central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book,
More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a
great podcast as well. All of that can be found
at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to
the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I
(18:21):
guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth.org.
So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly
what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I
was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity
of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence, and
all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdul,
about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the
(18:43):
parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed?
And if the answer is yes, what can you tell
us about him?
S5 (18:50):
Well, um, well, the surprisingly little, actually, that specifically mentions
Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd
expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh,
with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other peoples, um,
various religious groups or um, even political groups with whom
(19:11):
he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources,
not something I would think that's nothing like the the
riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself,
but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some
you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly
related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person
like mentioned his name. But there's a lot of reference to,
you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind
(19:33):
of thing. So you do see some of that. Um,
largely what we have in terms of the understanding of
the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the
hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is
like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith.
Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss.
It also means something that happens like a an event.
(19:54):
And so the hadith are a collection and there's like
six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions
about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um,
brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus
and such a person heard thus, and such a person
say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said,
(20:16):
so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um,
and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said,
I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a
lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and
there are various versions that are spurious. There are things
that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled.
There's other things that likely did happen, but we have
(20:38):
this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have
is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real
sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150
years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they
didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral
form and they weren't written down in any authoritative way.
And so there was compilations that had to be collected
(21:00):
about Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can,
with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person.
He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he
was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a
at least a political leader who had theological heft to
the things he was saying that gave him a religious
movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well.
(21:23):
So I think we can say that, um, so I
think we can say that with, relative relative certainty. I
don't think the same certainty exists with that claim, as
does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially Jesus
and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad was
born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500 years
(21:44):
after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um,
outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus,
who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years
before him. So that's just interesting all by itself.
S1 (21:57):
So much again. And I bet everybody is just as
being impacted as much as I am about information they
really didn't know before. So it raises a couple of questions.
And I ask you this because this is not academic
for you. You were on a nine year journey and
there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity
of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before,
that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind
(22:19):
of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He
gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc.,
going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well,
there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of within
the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there
is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I
(22:40):
find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem,
because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to
affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling
block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically,
but does that make sense?
S5 (22:55):
No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually.
And I want to say that there are there are
some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius
or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the,
of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the
movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh,
like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh,
(23:16):
in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references
to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways,
but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though,
when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you
think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um,
and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more
(23:37):
information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the
same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's
this influential. We should see tons of information about him
from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do,
we have, we have we have plenty. But we wouldn't
see the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about
their conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none.
(23:58):
He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You
have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there
to be at least something from his enemies that would
either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And
we have no, we have almost none of that.
S3 (24:13):
Wow.
S1 (24:13):
Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions.
I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean
break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us.
This is why we just love when he comes to visit.
He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he?
And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just
a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's
much more than that. If you want to become all
things to all people so that by all means, some
(24:36):
might be saved, I want to know because when I'm
sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend
or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam,
I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did
when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want
to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I
hope you are too back after this. What's the goal
(24:59):
of in the market? I'll tell you in the market
equips men and women to think critically and act biblically.
Why do we do this? So that we can be
confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are
you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner
today and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while
making an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet, 58
or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
(25:24):
Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry.
He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a
speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job.
He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand
Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a
White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He
(25:44):
contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and had
embraced the truth. He also has a podcast, which he
did recently on Jesus and Islam. Had to get that
off air. And now we go back to what he
was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting
you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder
(26:06):
of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that
precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then?
S5 (26:12):
Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I
want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, Is
Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically
to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although
Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that
Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran
actually describes them as that way is that when they
(26:34):
eat of the fruit that they should not be eating,
they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's
reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're
human beings and his his not reward, but his gift
to them, uh, instead of just casting them out of
the garden, was to give them a way back, to
come back into God's good graces, which was what's called
the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um,
(26:57):
which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh,
sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to
not only believe but also follow and that that is
consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah
to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist,
(27:19):
Jesus himself, and eventually Muhammad. So technically speaking, a muslim
would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God
is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now,
having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that
the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed but
came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption
that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad
(27:42):
is the founder of Islam in the sense that he
established a religion and was the most successful of the
prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um,
the Quran, according to Muslims has never been changed and
the message has stayed the same. And he brought us
back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all
the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and
(28:05):
and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually
corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And
so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which
is why Muhammad? And why is he so special? Well,
that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes,
of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very
first believer in Islam.
S1 (28:26):
Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this when
we came back after the break and let me ask
it now, your knowledge just flows out of you on this, Abdul.
You can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran.
Is this because you studied this from a child growing up,
or did you study this, uh, to go deep into
it as you were on your nine year exploration that
(28:47):
took you to the cross?
S5 (28:49):
Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um,
I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um,
about Islam. And I actually took a lot of that
stuff and went further with it because I had sort
of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a
child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff.
It was when I was in college when I really
(29:09):
began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because
it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition
and there's a whole story behind that. But then I
began to look even more into it. And alongside Christianity
and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems, just to
get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um,
and so during that journey, I began to take this
deeper dive deeper look into the foundations of the thing
(29:32):
that I had believed my whole life. I had a
foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was
developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And
is that after that nine year journey was complete and
I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to
look even further because what I wanted to do was
to make sure that one I had made the right decision.
And two, I wanted to make sure that if I,
(29:53):
if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity
and this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to
do it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the
great Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And
when you understand this stuff and you really dive into it,
you begin to be able to give a better clarity
because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I
(30:16):
have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I
preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in
my heart because of my own background. So I wanted
to learn more about them, and I think that's the
most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at
someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do
you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not.
You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys
who I like the detail and I like to do this.
(30:38):
And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey
is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on
this stuff, in these debates and these kind of conversations,
people bring up things you didn't necessarily know and you
have to go and dive into it ahead of time
or in reaction to it. And so a lot of
what I know is because of that as well.
S1 (30:56):
Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong,
but my subjective observation on this is that there is,
within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I
don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in
my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk
about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know,
travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that
(31:18):
when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an
ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim,
and it has to be changed if you become a Christian,
and then that changes to a C, and that doesn't
come without consequences. And so it is more than just
making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going
to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through
your official identification. Who's you are. But for Muslims, what
(31:40):
I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm
going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose
it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand
it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing,
and very often what I see was or what I
saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather,
and it just went down and there was no aha
moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven.
(32:03):
It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household.
That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be.
That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now,
is that an? Is that an obtuse observation or is
there some truth in that?
S5 (32:17):
No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um,
there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um,
a born, a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim,
and it is the world that changes you into a
Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or
a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate
sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um,
(32:43):
and then that tradition is fostered because the East and
the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture,
which has its benefits. You know, it's got its tremendous benefits.
Its tremendous benefit is that you do that which brings honor,
and you avoid that which brings shame, uh, to your
community and to your family and to the country and
then to the religion itself. Now, that's good in one sense,
(33:05):
because what you do is you think of others before
you think of yourself. It's not so individualistic that you
don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs, your actions,
and these kind of things on others. The shadow side
and everything's got a shadow side this side of heaven,
the shadow side is that you're willing to believe false things,
even things that you might know are false, because believing
(33:25):
otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes. And so, yes,
that is exactly. You're hitting the nail right on the head.
One of the reasons why it's so difficult to break
in to the Muslim heart and the Muslim mind with
the good news, and it is great news, is that
they see the bad news. And the bad news is,
if I accept this, I could lose everything. I could
lose my sense of community, my sense of identity. I
(33:47):
could lose family. I could even possibly lose my life.
And so oftentimes we say John 316 and it sounds
so fantastic, but they're thinking all the negative consequences. So yeah,
that's you've hit it, you've nailed it. And that's exactly
what happens. It's not obtuse. It's actually concrete. And by
the way, that's not just a middle eastern regional thing
for all the Muslims that are here in the United
States and across the world, whether it's in the Western
(34:11):
world or in the Muslim world. Um, that's a that's
a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah.
I'll tell you a quick story. Very short. I was
witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every
single thing I was saying is true in his own journey.
And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked
down at his shoes as if the answers to all
the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he
(34:33):
would not look up. And he said under his breath,
my father has never told me he's proud of me,
and that he loves me. And if I become if
I become a Christian, he never will. And that was
his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part.
S1 (34:45):
Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my
eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if
anybody is as old as I am, let me give
you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying.
So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference,
and it was the middle of the conflict of the
Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw
it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't
(35:06):
have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was
talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that
symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I
don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance
of that. I remember the president kind of made some
offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that
after it happened, but it was really he was angry
at what was happening in that part of the world,
(35:27):
and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe
at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the
other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul.
And I bet my music's going to play. But let
me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful
deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you
overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone
that had to be the heaviest of all is who
(35:48):
am I going to be in this family if I
accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but
I won't be one of them. I, as a son,
do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to
my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's
choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in
my own family. Now the music's playing, so let me
(36:08):
get your reaction to that. And maybe this is a blessing.
Think about that. Because how often in the United States,
when you decide to say, yes, he's Lord, I want
him as Savior in my life? How often do we
think and it will happen? In some cases, I grant you.
But does it happen to the same extent as it does,
for example, in the Islamic and quite honestly, in the
Jewish world as well? They'll hold funerals for Jews who
(36:29):
come to faith in Jesus Christ sometime because you're dead
to me, because you came to Christ. So this is
something to think about when you're sharing that good news
that there's a price to be paid sometimes, and we
should always remember that back after this. Embrace the truth.
(36:56):
That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace the truth.
Embrace the truth. And it's one of those deliciously rich
sites with tons of information, links to books and articles
that was written and podcasts that he does. So check
it out, please. I want you to know and love
this ministry. And germane to our conversation this hour is
I've got a direct link to a recent podcast he
(37:16):
did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot dot dot,
but not God. Question mark. And there's so much more.
By the way, it's actually a two part. But I
want you to start this, and then you're going to
be hungry enough to want to get the second part.
But I wanted to go on a very personal level
about the idea, and I thank you for explaining this
idea that there is this generational impact, this deep bonds
(37:37):
of familial connection, that you're born a muslim. And so you, Abdu,
this beautifully eloquent man for the gospel and yet passionate
about your family and a very observant Muslim that concluded
after not one minute, but nine years of investigation and
part of those deep night of the soul moments had
(37:58):
to be, God, what are you going to do with
me and my family? How did you resolve that?
S5 (38:04):
Well, that's why I took nine years. I've often put
it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it.
And I want to sort of start the response by
this is that it took me nine years to, to
to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence
was hard to find. I found all the evidence I
needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't
find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um,
(38:26):
but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient
answers to give my life to Jesus within about two
years of that search. Um, but it took seven more
years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and
rethink it and mull it over a little bit more
to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes
all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was
(38:50):
it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was
an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going
to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um,
who was is it going to be to my family,
in my community? Who was I going to be? And
so how I put it is this. The answers were
not hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um,
and that's why the ministry is called that, by the way.
That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer
(39:12):
was hard to. The answers were not hard to find,
but they are hard to embrace. And so part of
our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is
to make good people wish it were true, and then
show them that it is. You show them the beauty
of it. And so it took me this long, because
I had to be so compelled that I was willing
to risk so much. For me, it just this has
(39:33):
to be true. If this is even remotely close to,
to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I
need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly
and the sort of corporeal consequences were too great. Um,
that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant
that in my mind, they were. So that's why it
took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something.
(39:55):
And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis
says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself.
He calls himself the most reluctant convert.
S1 (40:04):
Yes.
S5 (40:05):
He says he said he said if you look for truth,
you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you
look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to
begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I
realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while.
But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity,
(40:25):
I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will
ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my
own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me.
And I knew that would be a despair. And when
I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that
all the things I was hoping was true in my
former worldview were actually true in the gospel message. Um,
(40:48):
I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was
to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing
for him to say is, he said that the great
thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go.
His love for us does not. It is not wearied
by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is
quite relentless in its pursuit that its determination that we
(41:08):
shall be cured of those sins at whatever cost to us,
at whatever cost to him. So I realized something that
other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know, any other ism
and schism you can think of, they ask you to
make a change, but at your expense and your expense alone.
The Christian message is that God causes the change at
(41:33):
his expense, and therefore, what cost could I possibly pay
that would that would, that would even compare to the
cost he paid for me? How could I possibly say
no to him? How could I possibly look at that
cross and say, not good enough? I might get yelled at.
I mean, how could I possibly do that? And so
(41:54):
that's that's a big part of it, is that at
some point I had to be willing to give that up.
And that's why Jesus says so beautifully in several places
and in various ways that you have to die to yourself.
He who loses his life for my sake will find it. Um,
I can tell you, it's been 25 years, uh, since
I became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years
since I became a believer. And in that quarter century
(42:16):
when it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been
the most worth it.
S1 (42:22):
Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement
that you just made because there is this tension, because
not just your nuclear but your extended family as well.
Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or
for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can
you not supersedes the temporal?
S5 (42:42):
You know, I would be lying if I didn't say
that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan
saying something in my ear that says, just say this
and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um,
I remember distinctly, in the middle of the throes of
some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by
the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh,
(43:03):
in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means
one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you
just say you are? And what you really mean is
you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave
it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no,
because that would be lying. And how could I forsake
truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I
(43:25):
couldn't do it?
S3 (43:27):
Wow. Wow.
S1 (43:29):
And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I
feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is
why I love our conversations that you can address the
the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that
take over. And I hope what it's created number one
actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it
puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back
to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in
(43:50):
your bones. Are you willfully volitionally asking the Lord for
opportunities to share the good news? And if not, why not?
How can you keep this good news to yourself? How
could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them?
Acts writes Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping
that there's now more fire in your bones to go
out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed,
(44:12):
but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared.
You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit
before you talk to people. But then also, I hope
this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not
willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might
not be the sort of angst another person has to
go through before they say yes. For things like the
generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family,
(44:34):
there's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires.
And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations,
I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to
call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank
you friends. We'll see you next time on In the
market with Janet Parshall.
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