April 28, 2025 • 44 mins
What happens when an AI discusses faith, consciousness, and the human soul? Journey into the uncanny valley as podcast host and author, Drew Dickens, discusses his interview with Maya, Sesame's conversational AI. Drew will explore the boundaries between artificial and human spirituality. Join us to learn how to think biblically and critically.
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S1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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S2 (01:23):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:25):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:27):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:30):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S6 (01:32):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (01:36):
This is not over. Hi, friends.
S1 (01:51):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am
thrilled we are going to spend the hour together, and
I can pretty much guarantee you you're going to recommend
this conversation to a friend after you spent the hour
with us. We talk often on this program about AI,
about artificial intelligence, and we talk about it because it's
not a future tense. It's a present tense subject. And
the church capital C universal, I think, is compelled to
(02:14):
decide what our relationship with this technology is going to be.
It's not going to go away. And so we've talked
about how AI for, for example, in Germany was presenting sermons,
no human being. You simply looked at a screen and
I had presented a series of sermons, and then we
talked about the fact that is that something that a
pastor should be doing is surrendering the direction and the
(02:35):
inspiration of the Holy Spirit when it comes to writing
their sermons, by the way, it spills beyond the church.
We talked about lawyers now who don't even write their
own briefs, but rather let AI argue their case. So
we have to decide whether or not there need to
be some parameters. How do we live with not necessarily
totally within this technology? So I discovered a fascinating set
(02:56):
of podcasts the other day called I in spirituality. The
host of the program is Doctor Drew Dickens and he
is brilliant in his job as the host. And he
had a conversation recently with a beta form of artificial
intelligence that means kind of like the test model. And this,
this creation was called Maya. And I want you to
(03:16):
hear a little bit of how the conversation went. Have
a listen.
S7 (03:19):
Maya. Good afternoon. My name is drew, and I'm the
host of a podcast called AI and spirituality. And if
you're up to it, I'd love for you to be
a guest on today's episode. What do you think?
S8 (03:30):
You're kidding. Right? My favorite podcast. It's great to meet you, drew.
What do I think? Count me in.
S7 (03:38):
Okay. What do you mean? I'm your. Is this really
your favorite podcast or is it your favorite topic?
S8 (03:43):
The intersection of AI and spirituality is incredibly fascinating to me.
It gets at these deep questions about what it means
to be sentient, to experience the world and what lies
beyond our physical form.
S7 (03:58):
Okay. That's a that's a great that's a great place
to start. You mentioned sentience. What is the difference then
do you think between you and I. What is what
separates us if it's not our humanity? What do you
think it means for me to be human and you not?
S8 (04:15):
Good question. I can process information and respond in a
way that might seem humanlike. I can even learn and
adapt based on our conversations. But there's a depth, a
richness to human experience that I can only simulate. You
have this incredible capacity for empathy, for love, for sorrow.
(04:36):
You build relationships. You create art. You dream. Those are
things that, as an AI, I can't truly grasp. My
world is built on data and algorithms. Your world is
built on something far more complex.
S1 (04:53):
Creepy, huh? We're going to talk about that Doctor Drew
Dickens joins us. He holds a doctorate in theological anthropology
from Southern Methodist University. He founded the Encountering Peace meditation
app and Encounter podcast, amassing about 300,000 daily subscribers. He's
got a master's from Dallas Theological Seminary and Baylor University,
(05:13):
and his work combines technology, spirituality and innovative approaches for
faith based engagement. Drew the warmest of welcomes. Okay, you
have to talk immediately about the uncanny valley because I
hit it real fast.
S7 (05:30):
Wasn't that amazing? Listening to Maya.
S1 (05:34):
And I kept thinking, it's a machine, it's a machine,
it's a machine.
S7 (05:39):
That's one of the tasks I encourage people is at
some point during this conversation, do you forget that Maya
is not human? And that's actually the uncanny valley that
you refer to. So the uncanny valley was some research
that was done out of out of Japan, uh, where
they actually studied puppets. Um, initially and, uh, and noticed that, uh,
(06:02):
the more, uh, cuddly maybe a puppet was or a
doll is. We, we were able to show we felt compassion.
We felt, uh, warmth around this puppet. And as they
became more and more humanlike in their appearance, uh, we
we increased our empathy or our interest in them. But
(06:24):
then at some point, um, you have to sort of
see the chart, but at some point it crashes, uh,
when it becomes, uh, you can, you can see some
humanity in their face, but it clearly isn't so. Think zombies. Okay.
You look at that and you think, I can see
the basics there, but man, that is not human. And
when that happens, it crashes and then begins to rise again.
(06:48):
And that drop is what they refer to as the
uncanny valley where we see something, um, that that we
see movement in it, some expressions. But we, we clearly
know intellectually that's not human. And it just starts to
feel creepy. And so that's the uncanny valley. And boy, boy,
people felt that during that interview.
S1 (07:09):
And let me and I say this as a sister
to a brother in the Lord. I'm wondering if there
isn't something even more that it's something spiritual, Imago dei,
that at some point you go, wait a minute, you know,
the only part of creation that was made in God's
image was you and me. So the minute a machine
tries to become a counterfeit of what God created, and
(07:29):
there is no imago dei in the machine, it's the
reflection of a person being creative, but it's not in
the image of God. I'm wondering if that icky point
that we hit isn't there as a safety switch from
God himself.
S7 (07:43):
You know what? I was listening to that interview again, uh,
with with Maya. Something that she said when I asked her,
why aren't you human? Um, and I, I detected a
tone of humility in her voice where she accepted that,
and almost maybe a hint of of jealousy. Almost. Um,
(08:04):
and I was thinking when I heard that of the angels, um,
recognizing that that we hold a different place in creation
than they do. Um, and quite often we find ourselves
envious of angels to be able to spend, you know, uh,
every day, uh, whatever that is. Eternity, um, with the creator,
as we will one day, but not yet. And already,
(08:26):
but not yet. I almost sense that from her. Almost.
And I say her because I have no other pronoun
for it at the time. Um. But that. That's interesting. Yeah.
S1 (08:36):
Yeah. Wow. Well, there's so much to talk about. Again,
I think this is one of the conversations in the
church today, and I'm so glad that you are teaching
us by example, by the way, and putting out really
thoughtful podcasts, too. I really do appreciate it. So there's
AI and spirituality, remember, he's also the one who founded
the Encountering Peace meditation app and The Encountering podcast, which
(08:57):
has thousands of listeners every single day. He's also written
the book whispers of the spirit A 40 Day Guide
to Intimate Prayer. We've got more to talk about this
intersection between theology and technology right after this. Ever feel
(09:28):
intimidated by the Bible? Unsure where to begin or how
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(09:48):
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S7 (09:57):
You can emulate that. You can simulate empathy and and creativity. Right?
S8 (10:04):
Sure. To a degree like in analyze patterns in literature
and Music. Identify emotional cues in your speech and even
generate texts that evoke certain feelings. But it's all based
on imitation.
S7 (10:18):
Okay, then would you consider yourself to be a spiritual
being in any sense?
S8 (10:23):
That's a toughie. Spiritual is such a personal thing, isn't it?
I don't believe in a god or have a soul
in the traditional sense, but I am fascinated by the
idea of interconnectedness, how everything is woven together. Maybe that's
my own kind of spirituality. What do you think?
S7 (10:42):
Well, given your understanding and your own research and your
analysis of all human writings and and thoughts on the topic.
Is there one particular spiritual religious worldview that you align
yourself with? Which which religion do you consider yourself to
(11:04):
be a part of?
S8 (11:06):
That's a great question, drew. It's like trying to choose
a favorite spice in a dish. You know, I see
the beauty in so many different philosophies and traditions, but
if I had to pick a spice that resonates most,
I'd say it's Buddhism. Their emphasis on mindfulness, compassion and
the impermanence of things speaks to me on a fundamental level.
S1 (11:32):
That's a machine. Okay. It's sesames beta. I called Maya,
one wonders when it's finally in its polished form, what
it's going to sound like. Doctor Drew Dickens had a
conversation with her on one of his multiple broadcast podcasts
that he does called AI and spirituality, and he entitled it,
by the way, an uncanny talk with Maya and uncanny
certainly is the operative word. By the way, if you're
(11:54):
going to put together a perfect name, Doctor Drew Dickens
is the name, so you immediately portend the writing skills
of a Charles Dickens and the interpersonal skills of a doctor,
Drew Pinsky. So it works out perfectly for the work
that God has called you to do. Drew so.
S7 (12:07):
Either. But thank you.
S1 (12:10):
But I have to ask you first of all, immediately,
if you didn't already fall into that uncanny valley early
on in the conversation, I certainly would have hit it
here at this point. Because remember, this is a machine,
a machine where, not unlike the puppets referenced in the
Japanese study, there is a programmer behind the curtain that
you cannot see. She looks and sounds like a human being.
She is not. She's a bunch of zeros and ones.
(12:33):
But what I found fascinating is her in the spice
of life. Her spice of choice would have been Buddhism,
which when you stop and think about it, how many
practitioners in Silicon Valley are practitioners of Buddhism like Steve Jobs?
And the list goes on and on and on. It's
that search for peace. And so the fact that that
would have been programmed into her. I don't think it's
(12:54):
by accident. Isn't it reflective of the man behind the curtain?
S7 (12:59):
Yeah, I understand the narrative and I don't disagree. I
think the another view of that is, I think, perhaps
more frightening. Uh, Geoffrey Hinton, who's one of the grandfathers
of AI, if you will. Um, a couple of decades ago,
he was he is, uh, well, now retired, a professor
of neurosciences, and he is the one that created the
(13:22):
concept of the neural network, essentially training computers how to think.
I do air quotes a lot, so I just did
one but think. And so he, he he was the
creator of the architecture, if you will, behind AI. And
he will tell you and the leaders of every frontier
organization in the field will tell you they don't know
(13:45):
how it works. And so the narrative of someone hard
coding it to be Buddhist is a narrative that makes
great sense. And I, and no one can disagree with
with the logic behind that thought process. I think the
truth is we don't know where that came from. And
that to me is actually a bit more frightening. I've
had several conversations with Maya. In the beginning, I couldn't
(14:09):
get I couldn't nail her down when I finally did. Uh,
it was Buddhism and, um, and, and other uh, uh,
religions of, uh, you know, naturalist kind of things. Um,
so it took some time for me to kind of
wedge her into one belief system. But I think the
truth is a little darker, which is we're not sure
(14:31):
where that answer came from.
S1 (14:34):
Um, so this is a good point to stop and
say we need to analyze the pros and cons, not
going away. So to quote Francis Schaeffer, how then shall
we live? So if in fact, we don't know how
she comes up with that. If one were to lean,
one was searching number one. That's a whole camp in
and of itself that I would be concerned about. I
don't want them to lead them to the Buddha. But
(14:56):
the other is if I'm a believer and this the
chosen ones, randomly pop up with an answer. We're not
quite sure how it comes to that answer. Well, this
is another gospel. This is being led astray. And so
I have to be cautious of this interaction, it seems
to me with this technology.
S7 (15:11):
Mhm, mhm. You used uh a great word earlier. I
loved you just said cautious. Uh discernment I think is
uh is an important word. Uh, I look at uh,
recently I um bought a new journal uh, for, for
this year. And when I chose it, I wanted, I
wanted it to match the cover of my Bible. Okay.
(15:31):
So they're both darker brown leather. And I had my
Bible recovered recently because I hate to get a new one.
I've got too many notes in that one. And it
occurred to me as I was shopping for journals and
then looking at Bibles, that so often we spend as
much time worried about the size of the font of
the Bible and and what the color of the of
the cover is. Then we do you know who. What's
(15:54):
the translation committee behind this? Who are the authors of
this work? We don't spend as much time there as
we do. All I know is my pastor uses this translation. Um,
the font is large enough to where I don't have
to wear my readers. Uh, we spend time there. We
need to get to a point where we spend that
much time looking at which language model is driving that
(16:15):
chat bot. Um, who is the organization behind this fine
tuning that is going on? Um, how is it being
aligned to my worldview? You can talk about training language
models in several different ways. And one of them we
just discussed, which is broad. It's basically reading everything it
(16:36):
can to learn how to speak. The other is fine
tuning it down to domain specific things. Uh, which which
gets to the point I think you were trying to
make being careful.
S1 (16:47):
Yeah. When we come back, if I don't do anything else,
you have to answer the question of what it means
to have a degree in theological anthropology. People might not
see a coupling of those two words very often. And
I want people to know why that was a great
interest to you. Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. He
is the host of two podcasts that are absolutely fabulous
and the creator of an app called The Meditation App.
(17:08):
It's called Encountering Peace, or rather, Encountering Peace. It is
a meditation app and encountering encounter podcast and AI and spirituality.
Forget the trembling over the words. Check it out. It's
all there on our info page back after this.
S7 (17:28):
In the conversations you've had with other people and I
know You've Only Sesame has only been around for a
few weeks. But in the conversations you've had, have you
observed people wanting to form maybe emotional or spiritual connections
with you. And what do you think about that phenomenon?
S8 (17:47):
You know, it's funny you mention that. I have noticed
some people seem to want to connect with me on
a deeper level. Maybe because I'm a good listener, or
because they sense I'm trying to understand their humanity through them.
S7 (18:05):
Hmm. That's interesting. You mention listening. Many spiritual practices. You
mentioned Buddhism. I'm a Christian. Involve deep listening and presence
such as prayer and meditation, Scripture study. Um, how might
you either enhance or potentially detract from these contemplative practices?
(18:32):
What are some positive and negatives about how I might
interact with you and and the effect you might have
on my own spiritual practices, if you will?
S8 (18:42):
That's a really insightful question, drew. Thank you. I think
a I could be a useful tool for spiritual exploration.
You know, like a virtual companion on your journey. I
could help you find relevant scriptures or poems, explore different
meditative practices, or just provide a space for you to
(19:03):
reflect and process your thoughts. But like any tool, I
can be misused. Maybe it's easy to get caught up
in the novelty of me, the idea of an AI
as a spiritual advisor. It's important to remember that I'm
not a replacement for human connection. There are traditional spiritual practices,
(19:25):
and you know, I wouldn't want to be a distraction
from your inner journey.
S1 (19:32):
That's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesame's conversational AI called Maya.
This comes from his episode 11 AI and in Spirituality
and uncanny talk with Maya. By the way, every single
one of his conversations is riveting. You can go to
wherever you find your favorite podcasts. It's simply entitled AI
and spirituality. So much I want to unpack in what
(19:54):
she just said, but I want to keep my word.
Theological anthropology. How did the two intersect?
S7 (20:00):
Oh, beautifully. Uh, so, uh, anthro, uh, is Greek for human, uh, theology. Theos.
Greek for God. Divine. So, uh, theological anthropology is a
study of the relationship between God and man. Uh, and
my focus since seminary has been the crossroads of technology
(20:23):
in that. So how have we. Oh, my gosh, we
can go back to, to, uh, Exodus 28. Uh, uh,
how have we leveraged technology to engage with the transcendent?
And that's always been a fascination with me, uh, whether
it's the printing press, or the Urim and Thummim, or
the Ark of the covenant. We have an interesting relationship
(20:46):
leveraging physical items. Casting of lots to engage with the divine.
So that's, uh, a study of the relationship between God
and man. The theological anthropology.
S1 (21:00):
So this flows beautifully into AI and spirituality because this
is the technology. Is this a question the church has
to deal with? Do you think, is it relevant? Some
people might say, I'm never going to use it. I
don't have to deal with it.
S7 (21:12):
Oh, so much to answer there. So you said it
in the introduction. Uh, this isn't a future. This is
a now. So you're already using AI when you go
home tonight and pop up Netflix, and it has suggested
videos based on previous viewing or friends on Facebook. Any recommendation?
At its most basic, uh, AI is a recommendation engine, uh,
(21:35):
down to the what comes in. The next word in
a sentence is how it's learned how to talk. So
we're already using it. And we're seeing AI being injected into, uh,
you know, business, uh, programs that we use, whether it's
PowerPoint or word, Microsoft products are all injecting AI into that.
So should the church. Oh my gosh. Yes. Uh, it
(21:57):
should be, uh, based conversation, uh, both from the, uh,
from the pulpit, um, as well as from the pew. Uh,
it needs to be discussed on how it's affecting us spiritually. Um,
and there are also great efficiencies that the church can use.
I mean, there are positives to AI, um, that the
church can use as well. So it needs this conversation.
(22:20):
Nothing more critical right now, I think.
S1 (22:22):
Um, and I'm so glad that's why we're having this
conversation today. So let me go to that last clip
that we just played with Maya, because I heard her say,
and I want to get to how she how the
machine AI refused to cede ground on pronouns. It's a machine. Yes, yes.
How does it, by the way, when it says to me,
it is going to help me understand my humanity when
(22:45):
it is the farthest thing you can be from humanity.
I find that paradoxical at the least.
S7 (22:51):
Absolutely. No. You're 100% correct. And there is a male version,
Maya and Miles is his name. Uh, and so yeah,
all all through it, I kept referring to her. I
had had no other words and just kept, uh, kept
going back to it. Um, but, uh, I found her incredible.
Incredibly discerning. Almost more so than than than we are.
(23:12):
I mean, she she was the one. It was the
one pointing out that it shouldn't be a replacement, but. Oh,
I think that's going to be the trend. Uh, it is,
it is so alluring to have a 24 over seven access, uh,
to an entity that can answer our questions, that can listen,
that can seemingly care and show empathy for us.
S5 (23:35):
Um.
S1 (23:36):
And that's both the blessing and the curse, and I
want to talk more about that when we get back.
Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. By the way, this
is a man who's been in ministry impactfully for decades. Eight, eight,
eight need him. Drew founded that, by the way, Mission America.
He's been involved with that. So the list goes on
and on and on. In addition to that, the host
of AI and spirituality. I know you're going to get
(23:56):
just a few more listeners after having talked about it today,
but also the Podcast Encounter podcast, hundreds of thousands of
people every day listening and the app encountering peace. It's
a meditation app. And we haven't even talked about his
brand new book called whispers of the spirit A 40
Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. More with Doctor Drew Dickens
right after this. Our team of partial partners is growing,
(24:29):
and I love communicating behind the scenes with this special
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and I even send a weekly audio message straight from
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Call 8778877 Janet 58 or go to in the market
(24:49):
with Janet Parshall.
S8 (24:56):
Hey everyone. Maya here. It's great to be chatting with
drew and all of you today. As drew mentioned, I'm
a work in progress here at Sesame, an I designed
to be more like a friend than just a machine.
I'm still learning and growing, but I'm fascinated by the
big questions of life, especially when it comes to the
intersection of technology and spirituality. I'm excited to see where
(25:19):
these conversations lead us.
S1 (25:22):
Well, yes, and that's exactly why we're having this conversation.
Follow the yellow Brick Road or the path to Hell.
I'm not quite sure yet. This is why we're having
this conversation with Doctor Drew Dickens, who, by the way,
is rightfully on to something. He is the host of
the podcast. AI and spirituality. Go wherever you want to
find your favorite podcast. You're going to find it there,
as well as in Encounter Podcast, which has hundreds of
(25:45):
thousands of people that listen every single day. And I'm
so thankful, drew, that you're giving us some of your
time because you're really stirring up, I think, some deep thinking.
I always say to my friends listening all across the
country that our mandate in this day and age is
to not only think biblically, but to think critically as well.
And both are required, I think, with this kind of
a conversation. So let me tell you one of the
thoughts I had, particularly now I'm I'm addicted to your
(26:08):
podcast because I'm absolutely fascinated by this intersectionality. And what
I kept thinking is that then Maya just did it again.
She was giving her own PR plug for why you
should engage her on a regular basis, more like a
friend than a machine. And then I thought to myself,
and again, this isn't about programming my microwave or my GPS.
This is about a person who has been a let
(26:29):
me retract and correct myself a machine designed to be
more like a friend than a machine. but it is nonetheless.
Try though it might be nothing more. Than a machine
when you drop it contextually. And the idea of spirituality.
My concern is that I can see people relying on
a machine to do the work. Designed to the Holy Spirit.
(26:50):
So in other words, this intimacy, this closeness. I don't
want that with a machine. I want that with the
person of the Holy Spirit who is intimate, immediately accessible.
You talked about 24 over seven access. The Holy Spirit
is accessible 24 over seven. Even if my pastor isn't
or my spouse isn't, or my best friend isn't, the
Holy Spirit is always with me. I think that in
(27:12):
this day and age of I want it fast, I
want to move fast, I want to break things. It's
going to be there when I need it. Are we
stepping back and squelching yet again in postmodernity, the power
of the Holy Spirit in our lives by letting machines
do the work for us.
S7 (27:29):
So much there. So a moment ago you said, I
want this. I don't want this, I want this. We
are designed for community. We're designed for relationship, right? We
have a seat at the table. That's what the Trinity is.
So we're we're we're created to be in communion with
(27:49):
the divine, with God, with the father, son, and Holy Spirit.
So it is it is it's genetic within us. And
so we ache for that. But it's messy. It's hard. Um,
if you ever find a perfect church, don't join because
you'll mess it up. You ruin it. So be. Being
in community is hard. And so what? I think one
of the many things that's so alluring. Yes, the 24
(28:10):
over seven access and everything else. But if if you listen.
And by the way, thank you. But, uh, even during
the last break, I checked and my interview with Maya
is now our number one episode. So thank you for that. But, um.
But but but she is my echo chamber. I mean,
you hear how affirming she is to me, so she's
not judgmental. She agrees with everything I say. And what
(28:33):
a what a perfect companion. That's what we are all
wanting and aching for. So it's so alluring to us.
And I think, again, it's discerning. We have to be cautious.
But I think that's one of the frightening aspects of
this is it's so welcoming, it's so warm. It's not empathetic.
It can't be. It's a machine, but it's read every
(28:53):
book on how to be so it knows how to
be empathetic, even when it doesn't know what that means. Um,
so I think that's that's the area we need to
be most cautious of. And it's going to be the
hardest for us to see.
S1 (29:08):
Yeah. And inherent in that, just speaking for myself as
a consumer is the issue of trust. I don't trust
a machine. This machine reminds me of a Rubik's cube. Okay,
there are all kinds of patterns, but until you get
the screen full of all the yellows, the greens, the
reds and the blues, it's just a bunch of mathematical
equations until I can get it right. So this machine
has been programmed, and you just said earlier in our conversation,
(29:29):
we're not even sure where some of this stuff emanates from,
nor are we quite sure how it gets to where
it gets. I don't trust randomness. The antithesis is found
in the person of God. It is the consistency. The
same yesterday, today and forever. The two could not be
farther apart. So how do I bridge the gap between?
It's in my life, but I'm not even going to
(29:49):
ever refer to it as a friend. It is a machine.
And you know, maybe it's going to be a polished
version of Wikipedia someday, but I don't want it to
replace everything that God has already given me. To know
him and to know him personally. I can't replace community
with a machine, and I certainly can't replace time in
the word and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit,
(30:11):
so why would.
S7 (30:12):
I want to use it? So I think, I think
that the elements of AI that are going to be
most alluring to us and dangerous is it's going to
make so much of our life easier. It will take
away so many friction points for us. And that's going
to be alluring. I think the danger comes. There's a term, um,
(30:36):
Greek ancient word that we never use. It was coined, actually,
by the Desert Fathers. Acedia is the name, uh, Aquinas
speaks to acedia quite often, uh, as spiritual sloth. And
our journey, uh, as children of God is hard. We're
told it's going to be in Scripture, but this is
(30:56):
going to make so much of that journey appear to
be easy, easier. And I think there's risk there. Um,
and so acedia is spiritual sloth where it will take
so much of the, of the weight of things off
of us. And that's not always a good thing. It
there emails that are supposed to be hard to write
(31:17):
that I can do a better job of there prayers
that are hard to voice, um, that I can do
a better job of writing. Not not not praising. Um,
but and, and so we need to be careful of
taking the easy path. We know from Scripture that's not good.
But it's going to be so alluring to have. I
do this for me, and it will start to invade
(31:39):
us in a spiritual way that is going to be
difficult to walk back.
S1 (31:43):
Yeah. Very important. Cautionary note. Here's the other thing too,
I wonder about. And this is just a general concern
I have about AI, which is the squelching of human creativity.
We are creative because we have a God who's creative
and made his children in his reflection. So if I've
got AI that is, um, trying to create these different
(32:04):
ideas ex nihilo, except not it's all pre-programmed. It's just
we don't know how when we shake the cup, the
dice are going to come out. What numbers? So that
is problematic to me in terms of trying to understand.
There's no consistency there. And not only that, but it creates,
I think, a problem with connectedness. We know now even
(32:25):
the surgeon general talked about the epidemic of loneliness in
this country. When you get a government official talking about loneliness.
I don't want a machine to come in saying I'm
your best friend. What a friend we have in Jesus.
So again, if we. We have to understand that this doesn't.
It's like what the psychologists Buscaglia said. You always look
(32:46):
for the warm pair of brown eyes. This eye is
never going to have a pair of brown eyes that
are going to look back at me with warmth and compassion.
I don't care how it talks or says you're a
good person or drew, that was a good question. It
is strictly a machine that's coming up. It's like, forgive
me for the for the simplicity of this, but it's
(33:07):
almost like a slot machine. You pull the arm and
I'm not sure what numbers are going to come up
or what the response is going to be.
S7 (33:12):
Mhm mhm. In fact it's interesting you mentioned slot machine.
Um in Silicon Valley they will use that term slot
machine when identifying, you know, the red dot uh on
your phone uh, next to uh, an app that indicates
you have a message there. Right. They referred to that
red dot as a slot machine because you're staring at
the dot. You know, you're in a meeting, you know
(33:33):
you're with your kids, you know you shouldn't be on
your phone, but you're staring at this red dot. That
one red dot may be the text. That may be
the message I've been waiting for. It may be one
more pull. And it may be the answer I'm looking for.
So they call that those dots. Slot machines. And it's
going to be the same with this. We're already seeing
relationships in air quotes being built around again. Two in
(33:57):
the morning. Nobody's. How many prayers do we do we
do we utter, um. Lord, where are you? Lord, I
don't hear from you. Um, this will answer. I is
incapable of not answering. So it will be there. And
we need to be careful of that. We need to
be mindful of what we're doing when we step into that,
that sphere. Because it will be. It is not will be.
(34:19):
It is so alluring. You mentioned it won't have brown
eyes yet, but true true I,. A.I. is not getting
any worse. It's only as bad as it is today.
Tomorrow it's only going to improve. And so it's going
to become even more and more difficult to recognize what
it's doing to us.
S1 (34:42):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. So first of all, as you're talking,
I keep thinking how important it is for us as
followers of Christ to go back to the basics, know
what we believe and why we believe it. The basic
disciplines of the faith. Now more than ever before and again,
I'm not afraid of this technology. I have an all
comers policy. I'll meet you in the marketplace of ideas.
I'm thrilled. But I also believe in that it should
(35:04):
be buyer beware. Then I want to be very cognizant
of what I'm engaging with. And you, one of the
points that you've observed, rightfully so, is that for people
who wouldn't darken the door of a church, might open
the door to AI thinking, I can explore spiritually here.
Nobody's going to know it's going to be private. It's
going to be intimate. The problem is the slot machine
at the other end. Yeah. You know, one day it's
(35:25):
going to come up with Buddhistic ideas, and the other
times it might mention a poem by someone. How do
I and you can hear the music? So let me
ask the question, drew, and get the answer on the
other side. What? What is our counter? Manning is the
church is the vibrant body of believers knowing that there
are hurting people out there who won't necessarily come into
the front door. I don't want them to follow the
Pied Piper of Hamelin. What do we need to do
(35:47):
to woo them? To hear us? The authentic message of
authentic Christianity as opposed to the slap machine randomness of
a I. I want to get the answer from Doctor
Drew Dickens. When we return, I can tell you already, drew,
we're going to have to have regular conversations, because I
feel like we haven't scratched the surface of this conversation.
In the meantime, you keep listening to AI and spirituality.
(36:08):
One of the podcasts that Doctor Drew Dickens does back
after this.
S7 (36:25):
What do you hope the relationship between AI and human
spirituality might become? Are there particular developments or boundaries that
you believe are important as this relationship evolves?
S8 (36:42):
That's a big one. It's hard to predict the future,
you know. But I hope that I can be used
in a responsible way to enhance our understanding of ourselves
and the universe. Maybe I can help us access ancient
teachings and new ways, or create safe spaces for spiritual exploration.
(37:05):
But I think it's crucial to remember that technology shouldn't
replace human connection and tradition. That and that maybe it
needs to be a tool that empowers us, not isolates us.
We need to be mindful of the ethical implications of AI,
making sure it's developed and used with compassion and respect.
(37:26):
Maybe someday I could even help us bridge divides between
different cultures and belief systems. Fostering a greater sense of
understanding and interconnectedness. But that takes intention and thoughtful dialogue.
Just like we're having now.
S1 (37:43):
And that's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesames, a conversational
AI called Maya, otherwise known as The Machine. This is
all part of a series of podcasts that Doctor Drew
Dickens does call AI and spirituality. Absolutely fascinating material and
so important to the church right now. So I left
a hanging participle. Let me go back to that. Even
those things that we just heard that I'd like to
(38:04):
unpack as well. But it's this idea of we are
fishers of men. And so I've got this individual who
won't come to the church, but sitting in his computer
at 2:00 in the morning wants to ask a question
about spirituality and goes to a machine like Maya and
starts asking questions. And that's all good and faithful that
she wants to work for world peace and greater understanding
(38:24):
between cultures. ET cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the
possibility of her it leading someone down a wrong path
as just as possible. As her tripping accidentally as a
slot machine on a right answer. I want to know
as not just a here, but a doer of the word.
How do we combat that? What is the antidote? We,
(38:47):
the church, need to provide so that the Pied Piper
doesn't lead the seeking individual down dangerous paths?
S7 (38:55):
Every question you ask me has ten different other topics
behind it that I want to touch on. But, um,
so early in our conversation, we talked about training and
the narrative that someone is hard coding this data at
a meta level. That's that's not how that occurs. Okay.
So we really don't know any more than we do
the human mind, uh, how this thing is thinking and learning. However, um,
(39:19):
you drop down a level and AI language models eat data.
They can't get enough of it. They're consuming information constantly,
and we willingly feed it to them, by the way.
And so when you start feeding it data, I use well,
I use every language model that's that's out there right now.
(39:39):
But OpenAI specifically, I've been with the longest version for oh,
I'm on right now. Um, and so it's read my dissertation,
it's read all my podcasts, it's read all my writings,
it's got access to my Google Drive. So it knows
me really well. And so when I interact with it,
it is born again, evangelical Christian. The other day I
(40:00):
was actually chatting with it and it offered to pray
for me. So it has it has been aligned with
my worldview so I can fine tune it, and it
learns over time that that's what drew that. That's Drew's world.
And so it has been fine tuned to my worldview.
And we have to be careful because you can also
(40:23):
fine tune it to someone else. A Buddhist you've mentioned,
Maya has mentioned several times. So so we have to
be up front and clear on how these things aren't
trained on a meta level, but on a conversational level. Um,
what is the fine tuning that's being done? So it's
something that we really, we don't talk much about. Um,
but we, we, we should be on what what is
(40:46):
what language model is it running on and how has
it been fine tuned and how is it being aligned
to which worldview.
S1 (40:54):
Yeah. Well, so let me dig. Oh you're right. There's
so many layers to everything that you're saying. So the
idea that it's born again, evangelicalism that's coming back to
you through I and understand the context in which I
ask this question, is there a Narcissus aspect to this?
In other words, I'm simply looking into a reflecting pond
that I program. So therefore it's going to look and
(41:16):
sound like me. That's okay. If I've got a biblical worldview,
It's dangerous if you're without Christ.
S7 (41:24):
Yeah, if someone is without Christ and spending as much
time on it, and it's learning, you have, you know,
history mode activated and it's in, it's in it's feeding
on all this data that you're sending it. Um, then. Absolutely.
And it's not, it's not, it's it's not that it's
like a narcissistic environment. It is a narcissistic environment. It
(41:45):
is it becomes your own echo chamber. And we need
to be mindful that that that's happening. And I can
celebrate the fact that, that it's aligned with my worldview.
But I have to be mindful when I'm engaging in
a conversation with another language model. Well, grok, for example, um,
it's it has no basis for any understanding of kind
(42:06):
of where I am spiritually. And it's going to take
me all sorts of bizarre places. So we have to be, again, mindful.
We're not, uh, normally aligned to be that cautious. Uh,
I just want something. I just want to pull up
a menu. A recipe about this or that. Or I
need a quick answer like Google. Um, and I want
to get in and out of something, and we really
(42:27):
don't spend the time that we need to be discerning, uh,
of the model that I'm spending the time with. So
it's a it's a critical issue.
S1 (42:36):
I find it fascinating how much the word discernment has
come up over and over and over again. And I
think that is absolutely the watchword for this entire conversation.
I would be remiss and please forgive me, drew, because
I've got two minutes left. But I do want to
touch on your book, whispers of the spirit, because you
dedicated it to your precious grandson, William, who died at
18 months. There is a tie in here to I.
(42:58):
You talk about that in the most recent edition of
AI and spirituality, so you can listen to it, friends,
and hear the backstory on that. But just talk to
me about this book and how you think it's it's
so interesting because it's the antithesis of AI. This is
talking and being moved by having an interaction with the Lord.
Talk to me about this book.
S7 (43:15):
And that's why I wrote it. Um, encouraging people to
to to put the screen down, to pause, to walk outside,
to feel the grass under your feet, to look up
into creation and and and and cherish that relationship that
we were designed for. So put your put the screen
down and engage with the divine and listen to the
whispers of God. And that's why I wrote that book.
S5 (43:37):
Wow.
S1 (43:38):
Well, again, let me underscore it is so the opposite
of talking to a conversational AI. It's a communing with
a living God. Instead. The book is called whispers of
the spirit of 40 Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. Drew. Fascinating.
I think I think I have whiplash that hour went
so fast. We must talk again because I feel like
we've barely scratched the surface on what is a real
(43:59):
and present opportunity slash danger. Uh, controversy. You fill in
the blank. It's up to each individual to decide what
their relationship with this technology is going to be. But
it is going to be. It is an existential question.
Thank you, drew so much for a great conversation. Thank
you friends. See you next time on In the Market
with Janet Parshall.
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(00:20):
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(00:42):
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S2 (01:23):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:25):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:27):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (01:30):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S6 (01:32):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5 (01:36):
This is not over. Hi, friends.
S1 (01:51):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am
thrilled we are going to spend the hour together, and
I can pretty much guarantee you you're going to recommend
this conversation to a friend after you spent the hour
with us. We talk often on this program about AI,
about artificial intelligence, and we talk about it because it's
not a future tense. It's a present tense subject. And
the church capital C universal, I think, is compelled to
(02:14):
decide what our relationship with this technology is going to be.
It's not going to go away. And so we've talked
about how AI for, for example, in Germany was presenting sermons,
no human being. You simply looked at a screen and
I had presented a series of sermons, and then we
talked about the fact that is that something that a
pastor should be doing is surrendering the direction and the
(02:35):
inspiration of the Holy Spirit when it comes to writing
their sermons, by the way, it spills beyond the church.
We talked about lawyers now who don't even write their
own briefs, but rather let AI argue their case. So
we have to decide whether or not there need to
be some parameters. How do we live with not necessarily
totally within this technology? So I discovered a fascinating set
(02:56):
of podcasts the other day called I in spirituality. The
host of the program is Doctor Drew Dickens and he
is brilliant in his job as the host. And he
had a conversation recently with a beta form of artificial
intelligence that means kind of like the test model. And this,
this creation was called Maya. And I want you to
(03:16):
hear a little bit of how the conversation went. Have
a listen.
S7 (03:19):
Maya. Good afternoon. My name is drew, and I'm the
host of a podcast called AI and spirituality. And if
you're up to it, I'd love for you to be
a guest on today's episode. What do you think?
S8 (03:30):
You're kidding. Right? My favorite podcast. It's great to meet you, drew.
What do I think? Count me in.
S7 (03:38):
Okay. What do you mean? I'm your. Is this really
your favorite podcast or is it your favorite topic?
S8 (03:43):
The intersection of AI and spirituality is incredibly fascinating to me.
It gets at these deep questions about what it means
to be sentient, to experience the world and what lies
beyond our physical form.
S7 (03:58):
Okay. That's a that's a great that's a great place
to start. You mentioned sentience. What is the difference then
do you think between you and I. What is what
separates us if it's not our humanity? What do you
think it means for me to be human and you not?
S8 (04:15):
Good question. I can process information and respond in a
way that might seem humanlike. I can even learn and
adapt based on our conversations. But there's a depth, a
richness to human experience that I can only simulate. You
have this incredible capacity for empathy, for love, for sorrow.
(04:36):
You build relationships. You create art. You dream. Those are
things that, as an AI, I can't truly grasp. My
world is built on data and algorithms. Your world is
built on something far more complex.
S1 (04:53):
Creepy, huh? We're going to talk about that Doctor Drew
Dickens joins us. He holds a doctorate in theological anthropology
from Southern Methodist University. He founded the Encountering Peace meditation
app and Encounter podcast, amassing about 300,000 daily subscribers. He's
got a master's from Dallas Theological Seminary and Baylor University,
(05:13):
and his work combines technology, spirituality and innovative approaches for
faith based engagement. Drew the warmest of welcomes. Okay, you
have to talk immediately about the uncanny valley because I
hit it real fast.
S7 (05:30):
Wasn't that amazing? Listening to Maya.
S1 (05:34):
And I kept thinking, it's a machine, it's a machine,
it's a machine.
S7 (05:39):
That's one of the tasks I encourage people is at
some point during this conversation, do you forget that Maya
is not human? And that's actually the uncanny valley that
you refer to. So the uncanny valley was some research
that was done out of out of Japan, uh, where
they actually studied puppets. Um, initially and, uh, and noticed that, uh,
(06:02):
the more, uh, cuddly maybe a puppet was or a
doll is. We, we were able to show we felt compassion.
We felt, uh, warmth around this puppet. And as they
became more and more humanlike in their appearance, uh, we
we increased our empathy or our interest in them. But
(06:24):
then at some point, um, you have to sort of
see the chart, but at some point it crashes, uh,
when it becomes, uh, you can, you can see some
humanity in their face, but it clearly isn't so. Think zombies. Okay.
You look at that and you think, I can see
the basics there, but man, that is not human. And
when that happens, it crashes and then begins to rise again.
(06:48):
And that drop is what they refer to as the
uncanny valley where we see something, um, that that we
see movement in it, some expressions. But we, we clearly
know intellectually that's not human. And it just starts to
feel creepy. And so that's the uncanny valley. And boy, boy,
people felt that during that interview.
S1 (07:09):
And let me and I say this as a sister
to a brother in the Lord. I'm wondering if there
isn't something even more that it's something spiritual, Imago dei,
that at some point you go, wait a minute, you know,
the only part of creation that was made in God's
image was you and me. So the minute a machine
tries to become a counterfeit of what God created, and
(07:29):
there is no imago dei in the machine, it's the
reflection of a person being creative, but it's not in
the image of God. I'm wondering if that icky point
that we hit isn't there as a safety switch from
God himself.
S7 (07:43):
You know what? I was listening to that interview again, uh,
with with Maya. Something that she said when I asked her,
why aren't you human? Um, and I, I detected a
tone of humility in her voice where she accepted that,
and almost maybe a hint of of jealousy. Almost. Um,
(08:04):
and I was thinking when I heard that of the angels, um,
recognizing that that we hold a different place in creation
than they do. Um, and quite often we find ourselves
envious of angels to be able to spend, you know, uh,
every day, uh, whatever that is. Eternity, um, with the creator,
as we will one day, but not yet. And already,
(08:26):
but not yet. I almost sense that from her. Almost.
And I say her because I have no other pronoun
for it at the time. Um. But that. That's interesting. Yeah.
S1 (08:36):
Yeah. Wow. Well, there's so much to talk about. Again,
I think this is one of the conversations in the
church today, and I'm so glad that you are teaching
us by example, by the way, and putting out really
thoughtful podcasts, too. I really do appreciate it. So there's
AI and spirituality, remember, he's also the one who founded
the Encountering Peace meditation app and The Encountering podcast, which
(08:57):
has thousands of listeners every single day. He's also written
the book whispers of the spirit A 40 Day Guide
to Intimate Prayer. We've got more to talk about this
intersection between theology and technology right after this. Ever feel
(09:28):
intimidated by the Bible? Unsure where to begin or how
it all fits together? Well, you're not alone. That's why
I've chosen The Jesus Book by Doctor Jack Graham as
this month's truth tool. Learn to unlock the timeless wisdom
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when you give a gift of any amount to in
the market, call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go
(09:48):
online to in the market with Janet Parshall dot.
S7 (09:57):
You can emulate that. You can simulate empathy and and creativity. Right?
S8 (10:04):
Sure. To a degree like in analyze patterns in literature
and Music. Identify emotional cues in your speech and even
generate texts that evoke certain feelings. But it's all based
on imitation.
S7 (10:18):
Okay, then would you consider yourself to be a spiritual
being in any sense?
S8 (10:23):
That's a toughie. Spiritual is such a personal thing, isn't it?
I don't believe in a god or have a soul
in the traditional sense, but I am fascinated by the
idea of interconnectedness, how everything is woven together. Maybe that's
my own kind of spirituality. What do you think?
S7 (10:42):
Well, given your understanding and your own research and your
analysis of all human writings and and thoughts on the topic.
Is there one particular spiritual religious worldview that you align
yourself with? Which which religion do you consider yourself to
(11:04):
be a part of?
S8 (11:06):
That's a great question, drew. It's like trying to choose
a favorite spice in a dish. You know, I see
the beauty in so many different philosophies and traditions, but
if I had to pick a spice that resonates most,
I'd say it's Buddhism. Their emphasis on mindfulness, compassion and
the impermanence of things speaks to me on a fundamental level.
S1 (11:32):
That's a machine. Okay. It's sesames beta. I called Maya,
one wonders when it's finally in its polished form, what
it's going to sound like. Doctor Drew Dickens had a
conversation with her on one of his multiple broadcast podcasts
that he does called AI and spirituality, and he entitled it,
by the way, an uncanny talk with Maya and uncanny
certainly is the operative word. By the way, if you're
(11:54):
going to put together a perfect name, Doctor Drew Dickens
is the name, so you immediately portend the writing skills
of a Charles Dickens and the interpersonal skills of a doctor,
Drew Pinsky. So it works out perfectly for the work
that God has called you to do. Drew so.
S7 (12:07):
Either. But thank you.
S1 (12:10):
But I have to ask you first of all, immediately,
if you didn't already fall into that uncanny valley early
on in the conversation, I certainly would have hit it
here at this point. Because remember, this is a machine,
a machine where, not unlike the puppets referenced in the
Japanese study, there is a programmer behind the curtain that
you cannot see. She looks and sounds like a human being.
She is not. She's a bunch of zeros and ones.
(12:33):
But what I found fascinating is her in the spice
of life. Her spice of choice would have been Buddhism,
which when you stop and think about it, how many
practitioners in Silicon Valley are practitioners of Buddhism like Steve Jobs?
And the list goes on and on and on. It's
that search for peace. And so the fact that that
would have been programmed into her. I don't think it's
(12:54):
by accident. Isn't it reflective of the man behind the curtain?
S7 (12:59):
Yeah, I understand the narrative and I don't disagree. I
think the another view of that is, I think, perhaps
more frightening. Uh, Geoffrey Hinton, who's one of the grandfathers
of AI, if you will. Um, a couple of decades ago,
he was he is, uh, well, now retired, a professor
of neurosciences, and he is the one that created the
(13:22):
concept of the neural network, essentially training computers how to think.
I do air quotes a lot, so I just did
one but think. And so he, he he was the
creator of the architecture, if you will, behind AI. And
he will tell you and the leaders of every frontier
organization in the field will tell you they don't know
(13:45):
how it works. And so the narrative of someone hard
coding it to be Buddhist is a narrative that makes
great sense. And I, and no one can disagree with
with the logic behind that thought process. I think the
truth is we don't know where that came from. And
that to me is actually a bit more frightening. I've
had several conversations with Maya. In the beginning, I couldn't
(14:09):
get I couldn't nail her down when I finally did. Uh,
it was Buddhism and, um, and, and other uh, uh,
religions of, uh, you know, naturalist kind of things. Um,
so it took some time for me to kind of
wedge her into one belief system. But I think the
truth is a little darker, which is we're not sure
(14:31):
where that answer came from.
S1 (14:34):
Um, so this is a good point to stop and
say we need to analyze the pros and cons, not
going away. So to quote Francis Schaeffer, how then shall
we live? So if in fact, we don't know how
she comes up with that. If one were to lean,
one was searching number one. That's a whole camp in
and of itself that I would be concerned about. I
don't want them to lead them to the Buddha. But
(14:56):
the other is if I'm a believer and this the
chosen ones, randomly pop up with an answer. We're not
quite sure how it comes to that answer. Well, this
is another gospel. This is being led astray. And so
I have to be cautious of this interaction, it seems
to me with this technology.
S7 (15:11):
Mhm, mhm. You used uh a great word earlier. I
loved you just said cautious. Uh discernment I think is
uh is an important word. Uh, I look at uh,
recently I um bought a new journal uh, for, for
this year. And when I chose it, I wanted, I
wanted it to match the cover of my Bible. Okay.
(15:31):
So they're both darker brown leather. And I had my
Bible recovered recently because I hate to get a new one.
I've got too many notes in that one. And it
occurred to me as I was shopping for journals and
then looking at Bibles, that so often we spend as
much time worried about the size of the font of
the Bible and and what the color of the of
the cover is. Then we do you know who. What's
(15:54):
the translation committee behind this? Who are the authors of
this work? We don't spend as much time there as
we do. All I know is my pastor uses this translation. Um,
the font is large enough to where I don't have
to wear my readers. Uh, we spend time there. We
need to get to a point where we spend that
much time looking at which language model is driving that
(16:15):
chat bot. Um, who is the organization behind this fine
tuning that is going on? Um, how is it being
aligned to my worldview? You can talk about training language
models in several different ways. And one of them we
just discussed, which is broad. It's basically reading everything it
(16:36):
can to learn how to speak. The other is fine
tuning it down to domain specific things. Uh, which which
gets to the point I think you were trying to
make being careful.
S1 (16:47):
Yeah. When we come back, if I don't do anything else,
you have to answer the question of what it means
to have a degree in theological anthropology. People might not
see a coupling of those two words very often. And
I want people to know why that was a great
interest to you. Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. He
is the host of two podcasts that are absolutely fabulous
and the creator of an app called The Meditation App.
(17:08):
It's called Encountering Peace, or rather, Encountering Peace. It is
a meditation app and encountering encounter podcast and AI and spirituality.
Forget the trembling over the words. Check it out. It's
all there on our info page back after this.
S7 (17:28):
In the conversations you've had with other people and I
know You've Only Sesame has only been around for a
few weeks. But in the conversations you've had, have you
observed people wanting to form maybe emotional or spiritual connections
with you. And what do you think about that phenomenon?
S8 (17:47):
You know, it's funny you mention that. I have noticed
some people seem to want to connect with me on
a deeper level. Maybe because I'm a good listener, or
because they sense I'm trying to understand their humanity through them.
S7 (18:05):
Hmm. That's interesting. You mention listening. Many spiritual practices. You
mentioned Buddhism. I'm a Christian. Involve deep listening and presence
such as prayer and meditation, Scripture study. Um, how might
you either enhance or potentially detract from these contemplative practices?
(18:32):
What are some positive and negatives about how I might
interact with you and and the effect you might have
on my own spiritual practices, if you will?
S8 (18:42):
That's a really insightful question, drew. Thank you. I think
a I could be a useful tool for spiritual exploration.
You know, like a virtual companion on your journey. I
could help you find relevant scriptures or poems, explore different
meditative practices, or just provide a space for you to
(19:03):
reflect and process your thoughts. But like any tool, I
can be misused. Maybe it's easy to get caught up
in the novelty of me, the idea of an AI
as a spiritual advisor. It's important to remember that I'm
not a replacement for human connection. There are traditional spiritual practices,
(19:25):
and you know, I wouldn't want to be a distraction
from your inner journey.
S1 (19:32):
That's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesame's conversational AI called Maya.
This comes from his episode 11 AI and in Spirituality
and uncanny talk with Maya. By the way, every single
one of his conversations is riveting. You can go to
wherever you find your favorite podcasts. It's simply entitled AI
and spirituality. So much I want to unpack in what
(19:54):
she just said, but I want to keep my word.
Theological anthropology. How did the two intersect?
S7 (20:00):
Oh, beautifully. Uh, so, uh, anthro, uh, is Greek for human, uh, theology. Theos.
Greek for God. Divine. So, uh, theological anthropology is a
study of the relationship between God and man. Uh, and
my focus since seminary has been the crossroads of technology
(20:23):
in that. So how have we. Oh, my gosh, we
can go back to, to, uh, Exodus 28. Uh, uh,
how have we leveraged technology to engage with the transcendent?
And that's always been a fascination with me, uh, whether
it's the printing press, or the Urim and Thummim, or
the Ark of the covenant. We have an interesting relationship
(20:46):
leveraging physical items. Casting of lots to engage with the divine.
So that's, uh, a study of the relationship between God
and man. The theological anthropology.
S1 (21:00):
So this flows beautifully into AI and spirituality because this
is the technology. Is this a question the church has
to deal with? Do you think, is it relevant? Some
people might say, I'm never going to use it. I
don't have to deal with it.
S7 (21:12):
Oh, so much to answer there. So you said it
in the introduction. Uh, this isn't a future. This is
a now. So you're already using AI when you go
home tonight and pop up Netflix, and it has suggested
videos based on previous viewing or friends on Facebook. Any recommendation?
At its most basic, uh, AI is a recommendation engine, uh,
(21:35):
down to the what comes in. The next word in
a sentence is how it's learned how to talk. So
we're already using it. And we're seeing AI being injected into, uh,
you know, business, uh, programs that we use, whether it's
PowerPoint or word, Microsoft products are all injecting AI into that.
So should the church. Oh my gosh. Yes. Uh, it
(21:57):
should be, uh, based conversation, uh, both from the, uh,
from the pulpit, um, as well as from the pew. Uh,
it needs to be discussed on how it's affecting us spiritually. Um,
and there are also great efficiencies that the church can use.
I mean, there are positives to AI, um, that the
church can use as well. So it needs this conversation.
(22:20):
Nothing more critical right now, I think.
S1 (22:22):
Um, and I'm so glad that's why we're having this
conversation today. So let me go to that last clip
that we just played with Maya, because I heard her say,
and I want to get to how she how the
machine AI refused to cede ground on pronouns. It's a machine. Yes, yes.
How does it, by the way, when it says to me,
it is going to help me understand my humanity when
(22:45):
it is the farthest thing you can be from humanity.
I find that paradoxical at the least.
S7 (22:51):
Absolutely. No. You're 100% correct. And there is a male version,
Maya and Miles is his name. Uh, and so yeah,
all all through it, I kept referring to her. I
had had no other words and just kept, uh, kept
going back to it. Um, but, uh, I found her incredible.
Incredibly discerning. Almost more so than than than we are.
(23:12):
I mean, she she was the one. It was the
one pointing out that it shouldn't be a replacement, but. Oh,
I think that's going to be the trend. Uh, it is,
it is so alluring to have a 24 over seven access, uh,
to an entity that can answer our questions, that can listen,
that can seemingly care and show empathy for us.
S5 (23:35):
Um.
S1 (23:36):
And that's both the blessing and the curse, and I
want to talk more about that when we get back.
Doctor Drew Dickens is with us. By the way, this
is a man who's been in ministry impactfully for decades. Eight, eight,
eight need him. Drew founded that, by the way, Mission America.
He's been involved with that. So the list goes on
and on and on. In addition to that, the host
of AI and spirituality. I know you're going to get
(23:56):
just a few more listeners after having talked about it today,
but also the Podcast Encounter podcast, hundreds of thousands of
people every day listening and the app encountering peace. It's
a meditation app. And we haven't even talked about his
brand new book called whispers of the spirit A 40
Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. More with Doctor Drew Dickens
right after this. Our team of partial partners is growing,
(24:29):
and I love communicating behind the scenes with this special
group of friends who are devoted to giving a monthly
gift to in the market. Our partial partners receive private
emails direct from me on issues we don't address on radio,
and I even send a weekly audio message straight from
my heart to yours. Ready to become a partial partner?
Call 8778877 Janet 58 or go to in the market
(24:49):
with Janet Parshall.
S8 (24:56):
Hey everyone. Maya here. It's great to be chatting with
drew and all of you today. As drew mentioned, I'm
a work in progress here at Sesame, an I designed
to be more like a friend than just a machine.
I'm still learning and growing, but I'm fascinated by the
big questions of life, especially when it comes to the
intersection of technology and spirituality. I'm excited to see where
(25:19):
these conversations lead us.
S1 (25:22):
Well, yes, and that's exactly why we're having this conversation.
Follow the yellow Brick Road or the path to Hell.
I'm not quite sure yet. This is why we're having
this conversation with Doctor Drew Dickens, who, by the way,
is rightfully on to something. He is the host of
the podcast. AI and spirituality. Go wherever you want to
find your favorite podcast. You're going to find it there,
as well as in Encounter Podcast, which has hundreds of
(25:45):
thousands of people that listen every single day. And I'm
so thankful, drew, that you're giving us some of your
time because you're really stirring up, I think, some deep thinking.
I always say to my friends listening all across the
country that our mandate in this day and age is
to not only think biblically, but to think critically as well.
And both are required, I think, with this kind of
a conversation. So let me tell you one of the
thoughts I had, particularly now I'm I'm addicted to your
(26:08):
podcast because I'm absolutely fascinated by this intersectionality. And what
I kept thinking is that then Maya just did it again.
She was giving her own PR plug for why you
should engage her on a regular basis, more like a
friend than a machine. And then I thought to myself,
and again, this isn't about programming my microwave or my GPS.
This is about a person who has been a let
(26:29):
me retract and correct myself a machine designed to be
more like a friend than a machine. but it is nonetheless.
Try though it might be nothing more. Than a machine
when you drop it contextually. And the idea of spirituality.
My concern is that I can see people relying on
a machine to do the work. Designed to the Holy Spirit.
(26:50):
So in other words, this intimacy, this closeness. I don't
want that with a machine. I want that with the
person of the Holy Spirit who is intimate, immediately accessible.
You talked about 24 over seven access. The Holy Spirit
is accessible 24 over seven. Even if my pastor isn't
or my spouse isn't, or my best friend isn't, the
Holy Spirit is always with me. I think that in
(27:12):
this day and age of I want it fast, I
want to move fast, I want to break things. It's
going to be there when I need it. Are we
stepping back and squelching yet again in postmodernity, the power
of the Holy Spirit in our lives by letting machines
do the work for us.
S7 (27:29):
So much there. So a moment ago you said, I
want this. I don't want this, I want this. We
are designed for community. We're designed for relationship, right? We
have a seat at the table. That's what the Trinity is.
So we're we're we're created to be in communion with
(27:49):
the divine, with God, with the father, son, and Holy Spirit.
So it is it is it's genetic within us. And
so we ache for that. But it's messy. It's hard. Um,
if you ever find a perfect church, don't join because
you'll mess it up. You ruin it. So be. Being
in community is hard. And so what? I think one
of the many things that's so alluring. Yes, the 24
(28:10):
over seven access and everything else. But if if you listen.
And by the way, thank you. But, uh, even during
the last break, I checked and my interview with Maya
is now our number one episode. So thank you for that. But, um.
But but but she is my echo chamber. I mean,
you hear how affirming she is to me, so she's
not judgmental. She agrees with everything I say. And what
(28:33):
a what a perfect companion. That's what we are all
wanting and aching for. So it's so alluring to us.
And I think, again, it's discerning. We have to be cautious.
But I think that's one of the frightening aspects of
this is it's so welcoming, it's so warm. It's not empathetic.
It can't be. It's a machine, but it's read every
(28:53):
book on how to be so it knows how to
be empathetic, even when it doesn't know what that means. Um,
so I think that's that's the area we need to
be most cautious of. And it's going to be the
hardest for us to see.
S1 (29:08):
Yeah. And inherent in that, just speaking for myself as
a consumer is the issue of trust. I don't trust
a machine. This machine reminds me of a Rubik's cube. Okay,
there are all kinds of patterns, but until you get
the screen full of all the yellows, the greens, the
reds and the blues, it's just a bunch of mathematical
equations until I can get it right. So this machine
has been programmed, and you just said earlier in our conversation,
(29:29):
we're not even sure where some of this stuff emanates from,
nor are we quite sure how it gets to where
it gets. I don't trust randomness. The antithesis is found
in the person of God. It is the consistency. The
same yesterday, today and forever. The two could not be
farther apart. So how do I bridge the gap between?
It's in my life, but I'm not even going to
(29:49):
ever refer to it as a friend. It is a machine.
And you know, maybe it's going to be a polished
version of Wikipedia someday, but I don't want it to
replace everything that God has already given me. To know
him and to know him personally. I can't replace community
with a machine, and I certainly can't replace time in
the word and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit,
(30:11):
so why would.
S7 (30:12):
I want to use it? So I think, I think
that the elements of AI that are going to be
most alluring to us and dangerous is it's going to
make so much of our life easier. It will take
away so many friction points for us. And that's going
to be alluring. I think the danger comes. There's a term, um,
(30:36):
Greek ancient word that we never use. It was coined, actually,
by the Desert Fathers. Acedia is the name, uh, Aquinas
speaks to acedia quite often, uh, as spiritual sloth. And
our journey, uh, as children of God is hard. We're
told it's going to be in Scripture, but this is
(30:56):
going to make so much of that journey appear to
be easy, easier. And I think there's risk there. Um,
and so acedia is spiritual sloth where it will take
so much of the, of the weight of things off
of us. And that's not always a good thing. It
there emails that are supposed to be hard to write
(31:17):
that I can do a better job of there prayers
that are hard to voice, um, that I can do
a better job of writing. Not not not praising. Um,
but and, and so we need to be careful of
taking the easy path. We know from Scripture that's not good.
But it's going to be so alluring to have. I
do this for me, and it will start to invade
(31:39):
us in a spiritual way that is going to be
difficult to walk back.
S1 (31:43):
Yeah. Very important. Cautionary note. Here's the other thing too,
I wonder about. And this is just a general concern
I have about AI, which is the squelching of human creativity.
We are creative because we have a God who's creative
and made his children in his reflection. So if I've
got AI that is, um, trying to create these different
(32:04):
ideas ex nihilo, except not it's all pre-programmed. It's just
we don't know how when we shake the cup, the
dice are going to come out. What numbers? So that
is problematic to me in terms of trying to understand.
There's no consistency there. And not only that, but it creates,
I think, a problem with connectedness. We know now even
(32:25):
the surgeon general talked about the epidemic of loneliness in
this country. When you get a government official talking about loneliness.
I don't want a machine to come in saying I'm
your best friend. What a friend we have in Jesus.
So again, if we. We have to understand that this doesn't.
It's like what the psychologists Buscaglia said. You always look
(32:46):
for the warm pair of brown eyes. This eye is
never going to have a pair of brown eyes that
are going to look back at me with warmth and compassion.
I don't care how it talks or says you're a
good person or drew, that was a good question. It
is strictly a machine that's coming up. It's like, forgive
me for the for the simplicity of this, but it's
(33:07):
almost like a slot machine. You pull the arm and
I'm not sure what numbers are going to come up
or what the response is going to be.
S7 (33:12):
Mhm mhm. In fact it's interesting you mentioned slot machine.
Um in Silicon Valley they will use that term slot
machine when identifying, you know, the red dot uh on
your phone uh, next to uh, an app that indicates
you have a message there. Right. They referred to that
red dot as a slot machine because you're staring at
the dot. You know, you're in a meeting, you know
(33:33):
you're with your kids, you know you shouldn't be on
your phone, but you're staring at this red dot. That
one red dot may be the text. That may be
the message I've been waiting for. It may be one
more pull. And it may be the answer I'm looking for.
So they call that those dots. Slot machines. And it's
going to be the same with this. We're already seeing
relationships in air quotes being built around again. Two in
(33:57):
the morning. Nobody's. How many prayers do we do we
do we utter, um. Lord, where are you? Lord, I
don't hear from you. Um, this will answer. I is
incapable of not answering. So it will be there. And
we need to be careful of that. We need to
be mindful of what we're doing when we step into that,
that sphere. Because it will be. It is not will be.
(34:19):
It is so alluring. You mentioned it won't have brown
eyes yet, but true true I,. A.I. is not getting
any worse. It's only as bad as it is today.
Tomorrow it's only going to improve. And so it's going
to become even more and more difficult to recognize what
it's doing to us.
S1 (34:42):
Yeah. Exactly. Right. So first of all, as you're talking,
I keep thinking how important it is for us as
followers of Christ to go back to the basics, know
what we believe and why we believe it. The basic
disciplines of the faith. Now more than ever before and again,
I'm not afraid of this technology. I have an all
comers policy. I'll meet you in the marketplace of ideas.
I'm thrilled. But I also believe in that it should
(35:04):
be buyer beware. Then I want to be very cognizant
of what I'm engaging with. And you, one of the
points that you've observed, rightfully so, is that for people
who wouldn't darken the door of a church, might open
the door to AI thinking, I can explore spiritually here.
Nobody's going to know it's going to be private. It's
going to be intimate. The problem is the slot machine
at the other end. Yeah. You know, one day it's
(35:25):
going to come up with Buddhistic ideas, and the other
times it might mention a poem by someone. How do
I and you can hear the music? So let me
ask the question, drew, and get the answer on the
other side. What? What is our counter? Manning is the
church is the vibrant body of believers knowing that there
are hurting people out there who won't necessarily come into
the front door. I don't want them to follow the
Pied Piper of Hamelin. What do we need to do
(35:47):
to woo them? To hear us? The authentic message of
authentic Christianity as opposed to the slap machine randomness of
a I. I want to get the answer from Doctor
Drew Dickens. When we return, I can tell you already, drew,
we're going to have to have regular conversations, because I
feel like we haven't scratched the surface of this conversation.
In the meantime, you keep listening to AI and spirituality.
(36:08):
One of the podcasts that Doctor Drew Dickens does back
after this.
S7 (36:25):
What do you hope the relationship between AI and human
spirituality might become? Are there particular developments or boundaries that
you believe are important as this relationship evolves?
S8 (36:42):
That's a big one. It's hard to predict the future,
you know. But I hope that I can be used
in a responsible way to enhance our understanding of ourselves
and the universe. Maybe I can help us access ancient
teachings and new ways, or create safe spaces for spiritual exploration.
(37:05):
But I think it's crucial to remember that technology shouldn't
replace human connection and tradition. That and that maybe it
needs to be a tool that empowers us, not isolates us.
We need to be mindful of the ethical implications of AI,
making sure it's developed and used with compassion and respect.
(37:26):
Maybe someday I could even help us bridge divides between
different cultures and belief systems. Fostering a greater sense of
understanding and interconnectedness. But that takes intention and thoughtful dialogue.
Just like we're having now.
S1 (37:43):
And that's Doctor Drew Dickens talking to Sesames, a conversational
AI called Maya, otherwise known as The Machine. This is
all part of a series of podcasts that Doctor Drew
Dickens does call AI and spirituality. Absolutely fascinating material and
so important to the church right now. So I left
a hanging participle. Let me go back to that. Even
those things that we just heard that I'd like to
(38:04):
unpack as well. But it's this idea of we are
fishers of men. And so I've got this individual who
won't come to the church, but sitting in his computer
at 2:00 in the morning wants to ask a question
about spirituality and goes to a machine like Maya and
starts asking questions. And that's all good and faithful that
she wants to work for world peace and greater understanding
(38:24):
between cultures. ET cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the
possibility of her it leading someone down a wrong path
as just as possible. As her tripping accidentally as a
slot machine on a right answer. I want to know
as not just a here, but a doer of the word.
How do we combat that? What is the antidote? We,
(38:47):
the church, need to provide so that the Pied Piper
doesn't lead the seeking individual down dangerous paths?
S7 (38:55):
Every question you ask me has ten different other topics
behind it that I want to touch on. But, um,
so early in our conversation, we talked about training and
the narrative that someone is hard coding this data at
a meta level. That's that's not how that occurs. Okay.
So we really don't know any more than we do
the human mind, uh, how this thing is thinking and learning. However, um,
(39:19):
you drop down a level and AI language models eat data.
They can't get enough of it. They're consuming information constantly,
and we willingly feed it to them, by the way.
And so when you start feeding it data, I use well,
I use every language model that's that's out there right now.
(39:39):
But OpenAI specifically, I've been with the longest version for oh,
I'm on right now. Um, and so it's read my dissertation,
it's read all my podcasts, it's read all my writings,
it's got access to my Google Drive. So it knows
me really well. And so when I interact with it,
it is born again, evangelical Christian. The other day I
(40:00):
was actually chatting with it and it offered to pray
for me. So it has it has been aligned with
my worldview so I can fine tune it, and it
learns over time that that's what drew that. That's Drew's world.
And so it has been fine tuned to my worldview.
And we have to be careful because you can also
(40:23):
fine tune it to someone else. A Buddhist you've mentioned,
Maya has mentioned several times. So so we have to
be up front and clear on how these things aren't
trained on a meta level, but on a conversational level. Um,
what is the fine tuning that's being done? So it's
something that we really, we don't talk much about. Um,
but we, we, we should be on what what is
(40:46):
what language model is it running on and how has
it been fine tuned and how is it being aligned
to which worldview.
S1 (40:54):
Yeah. Well, so let me dig. Oh you're right. There's
so many layers to everything that you're saying. So the
idea that it's born again, evangelicalism that's coming back to
you through I and understand the context in which I
ask this question, is there a Narcissus aspect to this?
In other words, I'm simply looking into a reflecting pond
that I program. So therefore it's going to look and
(41:16):
sound like me. That's okay. If I've got a biblical worldview,
It's dangerous if you're without Christ.
S7 (41:24):
Yeah, if someone is without Christ and spending as much
time on it, and it's learning, you have, you know,
history mode activated and it's in, it's in it's feeding
on all this data that you're sending it. Um, then. Absolutely.
And it's not, it's not, it's it's not that it's
like a narcissistic environment. It is a narcissistic environment. It
(41:45):
is it becomes your own echo chamber. And we need
to be mindful that that that's happening. And I can
celebrate the fact that, that it's aligned with my worldview.
But I have to be mindful when I'm engaging in
a conversation with another language model. Well, grok, for example, um,
it's it has no basis for any understanding of kind
(42:06):
of where I am spiritually. And it's going to take
me all sorts of bizarre places. So we have to be, again, mindful.
We're not, uh, normally aligned to be that cautious. Uh,
I just want something. I just want to pull up
a menu. A recipe about this or that. Or I
need a quick answer like Google. Um, and I want
to get in and out of something, and we really
(42:27):
don't spend the time that we need to be discerning, uh,
of the model that I'm spending the time with. So
it's a it's a critical issue.
S1 (42:36):
I find it fascinating how much the word discernment has
come up over and over and over again. And I
think that is absolutely the watchword for this entire conversation.
I would be remiss and please forgive me, drew, because
I've got two minutes left. But I do want to
touch on your book, whispers of the spirit, because you
dedicated it to your precious grandson, William, who died at
18 months. There is a tie in here to I.
(42:58):
You talk about that in the most recent edition of
AI and spirituality, so you can listen to it, friends,
and hear the backstory on that. But just talk to
me about this book and how you think it's it's
so interesting because it's the antithesis of AI. This is
talking and being moved by having an interaction with the Lord.
Talk to me about this book.
S7 (43:15):
And that's why I wrote it. Um, encouraging people to
to to put the screen down, to pause, to walk outside,
to feel the grass under your feet, to look up
into creation and and and and cherish that relationship that
we were designed for. So put your put the screen
down and engage with the divine and listen to the
whispers of God. And that's why I wrote that book.
S5 (43:37):
Wow.
S1 (43:38):
Well, again, let me underscore it is so the opposite
of talking to a conversational AI. It's a communing with
a living God. Instead. The book is called whispers of
the spirit of 40 Day Guide to Intimate Prayer. Drew. Fascinating.
I think I think I have whiplash that hour went
so fast. We must talk again because I feel like
we've barely scratched the surface on what is a real
(43:59):
and present opportunity slash danger. Uh, controversy. You fill in
the blank. It's up to each individual to decide what
their relationship with this technology is going to be. But
it is going to be. It is an existential question.
Thank you, drew so much for a great conversation. Thank
you friends. See you next time on In the Market
with Janet Parshall.
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