4 Founders Have a Chat - In The Thick of It Podcast (LIVE Stream) - In The Thick of It

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
All right.
I'm always excited for every episode,but today is like something
super, super special.
Since we started the podcast,
I've had this ideaof doing a live roundtable
and today to celebrateour first anniversary, we are doing it.
So, joining me on the paneltoday is Taylor Brooks,

(00:25):
founder of Simple, based in Austin, Texas.
Roy Kelly, founder of FirmStudioin—you're not Atlanta.
You're in the suburbs.I claim Alpharetta up.
There we go.
Georgia and Justin Smith, fellow Dallas—Dallasite.
And, we'll we'll catch up on on what he'sdoing these days in just a minute.

(00:46):
actually, why don't we lead in with that?
So, Justin,you've had a pretty significant,
thing happensince your episode aired last year.
Why don't you.Why don't you walk us through that?
Yeah, sure.
So, actually,
when we were, doing the podcastlast year,
I was actuallyin the middle of transacting.
So there's some things I couldn't saythat wanted to say, maybe alluded to.

(01:08):
And, we ended up exiting,about a year and a half ago.
So just really, reallygreat opportunity was cause
I went back and listen to the podcast
and it was kind of like a history,a story of of Red away.
So right away was a medical wise company,that we started essentially 2014
and we took it all the way to exit, very successful exit.

(01:29):
We're pleased at how it went.
pleased with a partner.
And after essentially a year's
consulting agreement,they were really pleased with the outcome.
So every former employees in a good spot.
So I don't think it could have gonebetter.
But, since then, we'll just say thatit created some optionality in life.
And now trying to figure outwhat I want to do when I grow up.
So, we can dive into that later,but quite a, quite a few things

(01:52):
spinning as entrepreneurs tend to do.
So yeah. all right Taylor
starting us off
like what is the biggest thingthat's happened in the last year?
The biggest challenge, biggest lessonlearned, biggest significant event.
Like what's been what's been that big,big thing for you for the last year?

(02:12):
I kind of racked my brain on thisbecause in some ways,
I tried to smooth out all of the,
you know, variations that an entrepreneuror a business owner would have,
and just try to have a stable,calm company.
the biggest thing actually, for usis a new a new customer

(02:33):
that we're going to onboardprobably next March.
I looked at when our first contactwas in person,
meeting with this, customer
and it was, like March of 2011.
So we.
That's a long sales cycle.
Is a very long sales cycle.

(02:55):
So we went and met with them, my CFOand I, at the time,
it was it was actually his firsttour of duty was simple.
So he actually left, went to runanother company as a CFO, came back
and then started reengaging,this potential customer.
And then, yeah, ten years later,they've they're in a new buying cycle.

(03:18):
They're,they're where the right fit for him.
And, that's big for us.
not because it's, necessarilya big account
or has any sort of bigfinancial implications.
It's just that we are a meat and potatoes,
you know, focus on the fundamentals.
And over time that will just pay off.

(03:39):
So it was a great lesson,I think, for our team to see that
just consistency of quality
and of relationship can,can lead to the outcomes that we want.
And they didn't choose us in the lastbuying cycle, but they did on this one.
So that wasthat was just a huge win for us.
to show that our,

(04:01):
you know, marketingstrategy or sales strategy,
which is just a focus on the long term,actually pays off in the long term.
And then, Scott, can I providethe first disagreement of the podcast?
Yeah, go for it. Really.
I actually think.
Taylor, you're wrong in your answer.
I think you doubled down on your businessbased on what I know
about background events.

(04:22):
And I to me, that would be the biggest newlike double double down.
Put your money where your mouth is,put your time where your mouth is.
I'm just going all in onwhat you're up to and, you know, simple.
So that's from an outsider's perspective.
I know you have this one customerand are super stoked about that,
but I've seen you double down.
I think that your,

(04:43):
from what I can tell, your biggest kindof win over the last year and challenge.
I don't know if you agree with thator not.
If you disagree with my disagreement.
This could go on for hours.
Well, a couple things about thatI want to say.
Number one, when I reached out to y'all
and asked you guysto be a part of this panel,

(05:04):
I think I told you that this has been
one of the absolute highlightsof my ten years of running my business
because of these relationshipsthat I built with people.
you know, Taylor, you know, I think it met
a time or two before,but we didn't know each other super well.
Justin, I didn't know you at all. Roy.
I didn't know you at all.
And it's amazing the the relationshipsthat have been built, but, man,

(05:27):
there's been lunches and textsand phone calls and emails and I've.
I've loved being able to have other peopleact as a sounding board and,
and being able to,to be a sounding board for other folks.
And so I love this banter.
and I think it just speaks to, you know,what, what we want to accomplish.
We want to inspire and encourage currentand future entrepreneurs.

(05:48):
And we talk a lot about mentorshipand having, you know, a peer group.
And and, you know, I love I love hearinghearing you guys talk about this,
Taylor, is one of the thing.
I think, that's that resonated with meabout your story,
about that that long sales cycle.
Number one, there's a lot to be saidfor perseverance and dedication.

(06:10):
but also
something thatwe talk about internally at my company
a lot is we're not about transactions,we're about relationships.
And the fact that you guys are willingto stick in it and and you know,
being it for the long haul shows,I think that y'all are all about
relationships as well.
Yeah.
I looked at the I just got the actual datapouring through our CRM.

(06:33):
it was July 18th, 2014, was
when they said, hey, here's the directionsto come meet with us in person.
So yeah, pretty much ever since then,
maybe not quarterly,but definitely annually,
we would bring em up and say, you're notinterested in making a switch, are you?
And then so we got ninenine no's over nine years,

(06:53):
and then a maybe sometime last year.
So I agree with you.
You know, we went through a big rebrandinga couple of years ago.
And the thing that came out of it was, we build software
and we build relationshipsand are kind of tongue in cheek.
Thing is,
you don't have to pay us in order for usto accomplish half of our mission.

(07:14):
We love the relationshipbuilding aspect, of what we do.
And so they could have this particularclient could have said, no,
and we would have said, we'lltalk to you again in ten years or so.
We'll be around.
but I'm thankful that,they said yes, at least at this juncture.

(07:34):
I love it.
Roy, over to you.
What what's been the biggest thing that'shappened to you in the last 12 months?
I'll call it a more of a personal battlethan anything else.
And I mean, I think once again,I know Taylor from outside
of all this work stuffwhen we talk on a friend level.
But fighting, fighting the pressurethat it should look
a certain way as a founder, like,you know, Scott might do it this way

(07:58):
or Taylor might do itthis way. Just might do it this way.
Fill in the blankTwitter personality does it this way.
And fighting the urge to make my life
and my schedule and my success factorstheirs and mimic that.
Honestly,
if when I ever stray and tryto find success based on those metrics
or whatever that person may deemor what the world deems a success, like

(08:22):
being a founder absolutely sucks
when I can just do me and what you know
and my perspective, what I feel God,my family, kind of desire and want for me.
If I'm in that vibe, man, life opens up
and becomes unshackledfrom the stress of being a founder.
But as soon as I say, man, if I were rightnow, like, you know,

(08:42):
Justin's had a success over the last yearand started a company and, you know,
the tens or what have you, if I was
if that was my benchmark,I'd be like, man, this sucks.
You know, life sucks, my business sucks.
I was kind of stuff.
But no, I'm on the right course.
Like, Taylor's been persistent,consistent, trying to win that customer.
So I think it's just staying the course,staying in my lane.

(09:02):
knowing that I'm on the on the right pathand the good fight.
Of course, I need outside perspectivespeaking into it, speaking truth.
But none of this comparison ego stuff.
So that's part of the biggest challenge.
And, you know,that's part of the challenge.
Every day I have my marriage or whateverelse's, find that ego.
So I would say that'sstill what I'm learning.
and I think the podcast, I ended this,

(09:25):
Scott, with you the first time,like startups are spiritual.
I think that is foremostwhat I'm learning.
And that's stilltoday. The biggest challenge,
Something that
has struck me as I've interviewed many,many dozens of founders at this point,
is that there's no one pathto entrepreneurship.

(09:46):
And, Taylor, your story is so uniquebecause you're like a reverse
founder, like,
you started this thingand you had other people run it,
and then you later actuallystepped into it as your full time job.
I still likecan't get my head around that,
but but applying that growingto what you were saying, just because
so-and-so does it this way doesn't meanthat it's the way to do it.
And and,you know, just like all organizations

(10:07):
have core values that are different,you know, that's okay.
Like, let's let's settle on who
who we want to be,how we want to go about things and
and not worry about whatthe outside world is doing.
That doesn't meanthat you don't look for benchmarks
and you don't look for inputfrom from people outside. But
comparison is the thief of joy.
so quote that I just, I love and I thinkthat's what you're speaking to here.

(10:31):
When you often look like an idiot,people from the outside.
And if you really carewhat they think about, I mean,
and my high school self really caredabout people thinking I was an idiot and,
I just yeah, doing all the thingswe're doing are completely stupid.
except for ideally us and the pathwe're on and what we're convinced about.

(10:52):
So anyways.
just like,
biggest lesson, biggest takeawayfrom from your exit
or from getting to, tostart this new thing.
Oh, man.
I will say, Roy, what you were sharingresonated a lot.
I would say that this has beena personal growth season for me.

(11:15):
You know, and just because there was anexit doesn't doesn't mean that, you know,
there's life changing money or there's, it doesn't come without all the feelings,
the bitterness of how this could have gonedifferently or,
wishing and comparing to other peoplehave had bigger exits.
I mean, it's it's been a lot.
What I will sayis that, my biggest lesson

(11:37):
this past year is thatI thought God's will
was a job or a place.
And what I've learnedis it's just more of him.
So that's been the journeythat I've been on the past year.
is trying to figure that out, you know,and I think the truth is,
the more that you have delight in him,
the more he's going to give youthe desires of your heart.

(11:58):
And that's reallywhat kind of has been the focus here.
you know, and then, man, like,
what is going to allow me to do that?
And a pace and a job that allows me to,in fact, reprioritize has my life
so that it looks more appealing to myself,my family instead of the world.

(12:18):
And I think it is a little contrary.
So, yeah, I mean, that's
kind of a lot of word vomit,to what I'm going through.
But obviouslythat's kind of where my head is.
the transaction itself, what I'll say is,
you know, the the business worldis ultimately transactional.
And I think just hearing each of you

(12:41):
talking about how it's, Scott,you said it's relational.
That was the biggest lessonthat I learned.
When money changeshands, it's transactional.
When people's lives are affected,
you tend to resort to itbeing transactional instead of relational.
what I would sayis that, you know, making it more
about relationship and making it moreabout taking care of everybody

(13:02):
else needs to be a primary goal,in any organization.
And as read away went forwardand it grew larger,
you lose track of some of thoseimportant things that you set out to do.
So if I could go back to myselften years ago
when we started the business,I would have stuck
to every one of those promisesthat I have made.
because now if I have anything

(13:25):
that haunts me post closed,I'd say it's it's those things, right?
Like, oh man, did I not end well here.
Did I not take care of this person? so
yeah,
I'd say that that's pretty much the year.
Yeah.
So on that real quick, I want toI want to drill down on that.
Is that
I'm going to call it doubt or questioning.

(13:47):
Like is that something that you'reputting on yourself, or is that something
that you're actually gettingfrom people outside?
No, I'm putting it on myself.
And that's a founder, right?
I think you tend to look at everythingand question
if you could do things differentor better.
you know, because you see that
your actions have consequences, right?

(14:10):
And if you look at it on paper,everything that we did for the business
and for the people was, was good, right?
But you know what happens a year later?
What happened six months post close.
There are consequencesto those types of things.
And, those are the things that you learnafter having, had a transaction.

(14:31):
Again, I think any entrepreneur goesinto starting a business
to sell one day, right?
Like that's the holy grail is to startto operate, to build, and then to exit.
that doesn't have to be the case.
You can hand it off,you can sell to your employees.
There's a million different options.
And I think that what I'm learning isthat it doesn't have to just be,

(14:52):
it doesn't have to be what the worldand the business world designs it.
Right is to make maximum value,I think values and,
creating a better life for people.
Right? Not just yourself.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
well, I mentioned values a minute ago,

(15:13):
and in my company, one of our corevalues is continuous learning.
And I think that most entrepreneursare people
who are always tryingto learn something new, whether it's,
you know, a personal skillor how to how to lead better.
and I, I'm a huge audible fan.
I've probably got three dozen items on mywish list that people have told me about.

(15:37):
And so I get my best book recommendationsfrom talking to folks like you.
So I'd love to hear what what has beenthe best business
leadership, management, whateverkind of book that that you'll have read.
in the last year or two.
Roy, why don't we start with you?

(15:58):
I recently moved
to a new spot and got a little bitmore space, if you will.
And so I started reading a book calledThe Gift of Good Land by Wendell Berry.
It's a collection of essays,and it's just his riffs,
the early 80s, late 70s,about the industrialization of farming.
And it actually has amazing parallelsbecause it's all about scaling and how,

(16:19):
you know, kind of back to like part of the
theme is everybody wants bigger scale.
You know, we're supposed to do all thesethings at scale, but ultimately, like
the more
you scale, the more you're dependenton these outside systems going your way.
So let's just think about the powerat your house. Right?
Well, you're trusting a power companyto do those things.
So, you know,most of us are outsourcing our power.

(16:39):
But you see this,you know, insourcing of power, i.e.
solar or it's, you know, water,you know, we're on.
Well, all that to say, let's say it'sthe rise of cloud computing.
You have people coming back
and bringing data centersin-house or operating them themselves.
But this book kind of,gave me a new framing on, you know, he's

(16:59):
talking about farming and the power scytheand the use of horse over tractor.
so he does not depend on oil companyor a machine or the repairman or whatever.
trying to think about whereI need to outsource things and where
I need to just focus on not being scalableand just being super simple.
And so that's been a really good bookin that weird vein.

(17:19):
but once again,like the best business books
usually for meare not written for business.
Like, that's not the point of them.
And they're usually philosophical,usually written by a dead guy,
Wendell Berry, still alive,thank goodness.
But anyway, so gift of good land.
If you happen to be into farming
and you happen to like thingsthat are analogous to, running a business.
I love that. And

(17:42):
you bring up a really good point.
I, I'm constantly looking for things
to take from everyday life or whatever.
And, you know, figure outhow it can apply to the business.
I, my wife and I got to cross offa bucket list item.
A couple of years ago,Garth Brooks came and played in Dallas.

(18:03):
I've always wanted to see him.
And literally while we're in the concert,like, I wrote down like 15 things that
that I could learn from that Garth Brooksperformance and I'd apply to my business.
And you must.
Not have been drinking.
Actually, that's like an entrepreneur's,
like, great way to ruina, like a date night in a concert.

(18:24):
Like just pulling out your yellowlegal pad and just, like, scratching out,
you know, business.
Eyes on the.
Yellow Apple notes, app.
But, I actually, I, I'll confess,I do get some of my best ideas
when I've had a beverage or two or. Yeah.
You know, so,
I think that actually was largelywhere some of that inspiration came from.
You think they're your best ideas?

(18:49):
All right, Justin, how about you?
man, I've read a lot.
I read a lot of,you know, faith based books.
And every once in a while,you find a really going
to kind of dissects business and faith.
And I read, I grab it.
It's called Sacred Space by Terry Luper.
read it.
Taylor.
man, it was just the right bookat the right time, you know?

(19:11):
it was about a guy.
TerryLee was a very successful businessman.
there's no plug here. I don't know him.
but he talked about how he just gotburned out really quick from working
too hard and didn't recognize his wife,didn't know his kids type of thing.
And then he, learned his own processof getting neutral, essentially slowing

(19:32):
his pace of work down, surrounding himselfwith, a wealth of advisors,
seeking all the informationand then acting on that.
And what he found is that changedthe way he made decisions.
It changed the way that he processedeach day.
he started to give money differently.

(19:55):
He started to treat his employeesdifferently.
And ultimately,it it made his home life so much better.
So just by slowing down,not working at a feverish pace, doing it
for the right reasons, reprioritizinghe found a better work life.
and ultimately, the premise is a more successful life too.

(20:15):
So, that was that was a book,but it's very impactful again.
Right? Rightbook. Right time, but highly recommend it.
Awesome.
Yeah, I read that onea couple of years ago.
It was it was excellent.
I actually have I'mlike two degrees away from him.
Terry is based in Houston,Texas, and I have a a friend that,

(20:35):
where Terry work for a nonprofit.
I'm sorry, my friend work for a nonprofitwhere Terry was on the board of
and said he's the real deallike he is like that book
kind of emanates his personalityand he's just a really slow, thoughtful.
I mean, it kind of goes back tosome of the themes
we were just talking about, ofjust being focused on relationship.

(20:58):
They were like, he ishe is a relational person.
And, for someonewho's a energy billionaire out of Houston,
you would expect that kind of hardcharging.
And, you know, personality, big personality.
And they're like, he's a humble guy.
And he he's been kind of on that slow,sacred pace journey for,

(21:20):
I don't know, when that
kind of crisis happened because I think inthe book he talked about like
he was either having
he thought he was having a strokeor a heart attack or so
there was some sort of medical issue,some like nervous breakdown.
Yeah. Yeah.
That kind of catalyzeda change in his life.
And I think it's been like 30 or 40 yearssince that moment.

(21:40):
So he's just kind of been living this,
yeah, slow sacred paythat had that book had a profound
impact on me as well.
Well, apart from Sacred Pace, what else?
Taylor, you got something new?
Yeah. it's also in the same vein.
the guy named Cal Newportwrote a book years ago called Deep Work.

(22:03):
Cal is a computer science nerd.
He, has a PhD from MITin theoretical computer science.
He now teaches computer science at, Georgetown in DC.
so he's got this, like,super smart academic background,
but he also writes books.

(22:24):
I say for people like me, who are not that smart or don't have,
you know, a high math background, deepWork for me was a pivotal book about,
I don't know when that came out,but that that book for me was awesome.
And he has a latestone called Slow Productivity.
And slow productivitybasically has three points that's very,

(22:46):
very similar, to sacred pacebut slow productivity.
The output is basically dofewer things, work at a natural pace
and focus on quality like that's that'sthe that's the headline right there.
And I love the work at a natural pacewhere he talks about,
in an agrarian society,

(23:09):
you are largely dependentupon the seasons, upon the four seasons.
Like, you can't go harvestwhen there aren't things to harvest.
And then the industrial society,we moved into
a, output
based mentality and a work based mentalitythat was widgets
per unit of time, widgets per hour,widgets per month, or something like that.

(23:30):
And in knowledgework, we're kind of still scratching.
We don't know what the, what the measurement is like.
What's the single measurement?
like an if an agrarian society is yieldper acre or something
like that, or yield per harvest seasonand industrial is widgets
per, you know, unit of time and knowledgework.

(23:52):
We're still kind of scratching likewe're still on the very early outskirts of
if you're in softwareor perhaps management
consulting or something wheremost of your work is done by your mind.
We haven't quite figured outwhat a natural pace
looks like,and so we see the effects of it.
We see people quiet, quitting,we see people burning out.

(24:12):
We see a lot of a lot of mentalhealth issues.
And so the kind of crux of the book is,
you know, we need to focus on a slower productivity.
and as knowledge workers, by doing fewer
things, work in a natural paceand then just obsessing over quality,
I kind of run a lot of these booksthat I've read recently together,

(24:34):
because once I find an authorwho I really, really like, like
I tend to read the author and I'll like,go back through their entire catalog.
So I ended up buying every bookthat Cal wrote
after I finished Slow Productivityand just read them all.
And they're all like, great.
And I've tried to shift and mold

(24:56):
a lot of whatI've done around his kind of philosophy.
so now they're all kind of run together,
but slow productivity,deep work was the one that I first read.
I would I might recommend starting offwith that and then doing the same path.
I did go into slow productivity,
and then maybe working on your waybackwards through digital minimalism,

(25:16):
a world without email,
which is just kindof a fascinating concept in and of itself.
and then what are some of oh, so goodthey can't ignore you?
He's a little a little bit ofa contrarian by nature, but,
You're not.
I, I mean,I don't get why you're like, I'm.
Yeah. So.

(25:37):
And I'll one more plug.
the a book that I read last yearcalled The Road Less Stupid.
but I got in Keith Cunningham,and the whole premise of that is
we should, as entrepreneurs and businessowners,
allocate 45 minutesa week of thinking time.

(25:57):
His big thing is, you know,you need to set aside
an hour where you're not aroundany devices.
You do have a yellow legal pad
and you prior to your thinking time,
you posemaybe 1 or 2 like really good questions.
You say, this is the questionthat I'm going to wrestle
with for 45 minutes to an hour,and then you just write down,

(26:21):
you know, everything that comes to mind.
And so the book basically proposesthis idea of thinking time.
But there's 760 ish questionsthat he a bank of questions
that come from that book.
And they're all like gold.
I had an idea, read the bookand put all the questions in a spreadsheet
and, categorize themso I could come back to them

(26:44):
and use them in my own thinking time.
But, that that was an excellent,excellent read.
Man. Can you canyou answer those questions
while listening to Garth Brooks?
Only if you've had a beverage or two.
our books, though, aren't books, though,

(27:04):
like the most undervalued thing,like at 20 to 40 bucks a hardcover,
like the ROI on a book,they're dramatically underpriced.
Like, it's insane how cheap they arerelative to the value you get out of them.
All right, so
a couple things here.

(27:24):
Digital book, audiobook or physical book.
Taylor.
it has to be physicaland it has to be hardcover.
Wow. Justin.
physical.
doesn't have to be hardcover,but I do need a pen or a highlighter.
When I read,they're not bougie like Taylor.

(27:45):
I understand the hardcover truthfully,because,
you know, at some pointI went to a paperback and then my whole,
you know, bookshelf.
I screwed up at that point,so I couldn't, you know,
I lost the desire to have a hardback.
Really.
I'd say all of the above.
Only partly because I'm pretty moodywhen I read or what I want to read.

(28:06):
And so I need to have I usually, if Ilike a book, I'll buy in every format.
Okay.
In that same vein, Taylor,so you pick up a, a notepad,
are you all digitalfor pretty much everything,
or do you still keep papernotes, handwritten paper notes?
As a result of slow productivity?

(28:28):
I went backwards.
I, I he really makes the casefor going analog
in a lot of things and in distancein yourself from technology.
So I'm kind of going the other way,even though I'm
a programmer by tradeand I, you know, seek
to create efficiencies through software,I'm going backwards.

(28:50):
For those that are just listening.
Justin held up his,his physical notepad just a second ago.
Roy. No, I, I walk a lot,and I don't want to bring a legal pad
with me walking, sweaty legal padsand all that kind of stuff.
Don't make a lot of sense,but I like to walk and just note,
audibly and it, you know,especially with ChatGPT all these things.

(29:12):
Now you can just speak into a tooland it'll dictate for you.
So that's whatI find to be the best rhythm for me.
So I, I'm a techie.
That's a large part of whyI do the kind of work that I do.
And for the longest timeI wanted everything digital.
and a couple years ago, I picked upa moleskin notebook at the airport.

(29:33):
And for some reason,there was something about physically
handwriting a pen and paperabout the way that I was able
to get stuff out of my head versusjust typing away at the keyboard.
now, at the same
time, I left my notebook at home,and when I got into the office
this morning
and headed into our leadership teammeeting, first thing, I was like, oh geez.

(29:56):
And so it's this weird dichotomy ofI want it physical,
but I also want, I want it wherever I go.
So if somebody can fixthat problem, let me know.
All right.
all right.
Depending on who you talkto, we are in a recession.
We're headed for a recession.
Or we somehow had this little soft landingand skipped over it.

(30:19):
I'm curious,what is your take on the state
of things and what,if any, effect, positive or negative?
Is it having on on your business?
and justand actually I want to start with you.
You're, you'regoing into a completely new venture.
And as an aside,I think, correct, I'm wrong, but

(30:40):
I think you're going to this not so muchas an operator, but as an investor.
And, I think that's a placethat a lot of people want to get to.
As you think about this, this investmentthat you're making in this venture,
like wherehow does the economy factor into that?
Yeah.
So I'll, I'll answer kind of theoverarching, what I think is happening.

(31:02):
I think an election cycleis always going to make people cautious.
I would say if we're not in a recession,we are getting very close to one.
And I think that the election itselfis going to cause some
very deep market ripples.
Now, as part of my investing on the side,
which I'll get to in a second, I'mstill looking for what I want to do next.

(31:23):
And I've talked to private equity folksand family offices
to run portfolio companiesand things like that.
And what I've learned is that businessowners are skittish right now.
I even do some business brokersbrokerage on the side and,
you know, people don't want to slow down
or changesomething that is working right now.

(31:46):
So the M&A market has really slowed.
I think all that alludes to the fact that,
you know, people are at least afraid of the future.
So, you know, and to now until November,I think things are going
to be pretty tight.
Job market seems really tight right now.
I know we still had a big jobs number.
correction, last weekend.

(32:09):
So I would say that, you know,people are going to hold tight for now.
for the investor side,you know, it's really recession proof,
recurring revenue, high cash flow modelsthat anybody is looking at.
If you have them,you don't want to get rid of them.
If you are investing,you want to recreate it or buy that.
And again, it's just really hard to do.

(32:30):
So one of the investmentswe're looking at is, start up in a
recession proof model.
and, you know, finding the right operator,I believe that.
And all the entrepreneurs that are hearingthis are going to agree
that you back a personjust as much as you back an idea.
And when you find a really good person,

(32:52):
you know, it's easierto put your investment to that.
So you couple the operator with,
recession proof idea, I thinkI think you have a winning combination.
I wholeheartedly agree, Taylor.
How about you?
How's the economy affecting y'all?
I this isn't somethingI spend a lot of mind cycles on.

(33:12):
for the most part, for betteror for worse, I'm like an ostrich,
and I just stick my head in the sand,
and I just kind of focuson what's right in front of me.
I don't read much
macro economics.
I don't pay that much attentionto global markets or the US markets.
I can't control them.

(33:34):
I'm like an Enneagram eight, which,if you're not familiar with Enneagram, is
this is someone who loves to controland have power over things,
not in like a power hungry way,but just like
these are theI know, I'm know in which way.
Let's be honest. Okay, fine. All right.
And I can't control the macro economy,but I can steward

(33:55):
what's right in front of me
and my team and the relationshipsI have with my customers.
And so, I don't know, this is a longwinded way of me saying, pass.
Roy, I'd love to hear your answer.
No, I'm in the same boat, by and large.
Like I don't dress for the weatherfor next week.
I'm kind of, you know, whateverthe weather is like today is how I dress.
But that could be stupid,because if I bring on a production

(34:18):
capacity and a big storm hitsand it puts it out.
So I want to say I'm probably
a little bit Pennywise pound foolishwith how I think about macro.
I'm really just laser focused on my pianoand piano that I'm involved in.
I currently
see no vibe shiftand it's all systems go inside of.

(34:38):
But I'm kind of in this compliance world,which
no matter which party is in power,tends to increase.
and so I think it's probably not
recession proof,but closest to to that is you can be.
So that's kind of the world I live in.
Not because I'm so smart and I pick that,

(34:58):
but just because that's the worldI've played in for 20 years.
So, so far for me, it'snot really impacting either.
Which one?
I was in Alaska, maybe three weeks ago
with my son on a father son trip, and
I looked at we did we did get access toit was largely off grid,
but we did get accessto internet early in the morning,

(35:21):
and I would check the weatherto see how to dress on for a hike.
And one of the regulars there was like,you can't trust
that no one pays attentionto weather up here.
Like I was like, what do you mean?
And he's like,weather moved so quick up here.
Like it can be forecast to 74and like there's
going to be a storm that blowsand it's going to be 41 and raining.

(35:43):
so just prepare for every possibility.
and I think that'show I've at least tried to run
our little business is
I remember this business professordrilled into me when I was at Auburn.
There's only one reason that businessesfail.
People will pontificateon all these other reasons,

(36:05):
but there's really only one.
And that is they run out of cash.
If you don't run out of cash,then that business will.
What?I mean, you could have a founder die.
You can have management mistakes,whatever.
If that business still has cash flow,someone's
going to step in and figure it outand that business will not fail.
And so for me, it's

(36:25):
been again staying,
having my ostrich head in the sand.
It's beenhow do I not get too far out over my skis.
How do I not how do I control our growth?
How do I, pull back on
my go go go go go mentality of like,wanting to build all the things but say,

(36:47):
all right, what'swhat's a measured, reasonable way to grow?
and not levered up the company or overnot even just lever leverage them
our risk our financial resourcesa bit leverage of my team's time.
So, Yeah.
That's but and then keeping a sizableenough cash position where

(37:07):
if there are storms,then I can weather it and be okay.
Yeah.
I am, I have a theory
in Taylor where I think kind of similar.
Roy, you may play a little bitfurther up market than we do.
and Justin right away would probably fitin this category as well.
But from my perspective,when these big macroeconomic

(37:32):
things happen one way or the other,especially on the downside, I think
I feel like if you'reif you're focused on the mid-market,
you don't feel itthe same way that you do.
If you're in B2Band you're serving enterprise customers,
having come from the consulting world
and having friends that are still at thesereally, really large firms

(37:53):
that are focused on serving other very,very large firms, fortune
500 types, man, they were feeling thishard starting probably 18 months ago.
And it doesn't looklike they're coming around soon,
but I feel like most of the peoplethat are in kind of the space
that we're in, you know,it may not be gangbusters growth,
but things are kind of holding on strong.

(38:14):
I don't know if you guys haveany any thoughts on that.
No. Good that I, I'm learning.
I don't have anything intelligentto say, to be honest.
I think whenever I'm around peoplein these big
corporate environments, I'm just like,you're an alien to me, I just don't.
I can't survive in thinkingeven how to exist

(38:35):
one day in that world, let alonewhat the economy's doing in that world.
Like it's just uncomfortablefor me to be in that world.
So I don't think about it.
But I would largely agree that.
I mean, there's that bookcalled antifragile, but you seem to leave,
and it's just like when you have a seriesof smaller transactions,
it makes you less fragile,because if any one moves or whatever it

(38:55):
of course, he compares itto a taxicab driver or a prostitute.
But, you know, I don't want to be eitherone of those things, per se, but,
nonetheless,
smaller transactionsmakes you less fragile.
Should something seismic macro hit?

(39:15):
Yeah, yeah, I would say that.
Also the largerthis is probably a trope, but
the larger cup companiespresumably should be more efficient
because they have more resources,but they're often not.
Yeah.
and mid-market
serving, mid-market and servingmaybe more B2C or consumers.

(39:36):
You have to be operationally excellentand efficient.
We don't have the the benefitof having a lot of excess fat.
And so you have to be on point.
so yeah, if you're serving perhaps
large fortune500 or fortune 1000 companies
and it's

(39:58):
perhaps you're selling somethingthat's is discretion
or is discretionary or appears to beis perceived then like that's
going to get cut by some budget when,when they feel the effects of stuff.
So that's my riff.
real quick
for those that are streamingthis, we are going to take some questions.

(40:20):
so if you will be so boldas to put them, put them in the comments,
we'll, we'll open it up for some,some live Q&A here in just a bit.
all right.
couple more questions for our panel here.
Where do you see your businessgoing over the next year?
Is it is it holding steady?
Is it massive growth?

(40:42):
Is it, going into a whole new arena
wherewhat are your plans for the year ahead?
Taylor? What?
Start with you.
we're actually up from last year.
we're we're 30% yearto date over last year.

(41:02):
which I'm, I'm thankful for.
I think part of it is some of the longterm bets that we've been making and,
you know, ten years agoor now kind of come into fruition.
and I think that's probably
going to be the same story on a go forwardbasis is I think,
I think that we're going to be continueto continue to grow again.

(41:23):
I don't really havethat much control over it.
so every customer that does come on board,I'm kind of like surprisingly thankful.
I'm like, oh, well, they,you know, they chose us.
praise the Lord.
so I, I think,I think that we're going to grow
probably in the somewherebetween 15 to 40% range.

(41:46):
And I'm, I'm, I'm happythat that makes me happy.
If we stayed steady and didn't grow at all
like I would be, I would be happycompletely happy with that.
my predictions about the future are,
this is a contrarian take, I don't I think AI is overhyped.
I think there are goingto be some efficiencies.

(42:09):
but I think it's not going to be as nearas impactful as people make it out to be.
I won't go so far as to call itsnake oil, but
it's it's been in that
I would put it in that categorysix months ago.
My long term prediction is that AI
is never going to be able to be ableto substitute for human relationships.

(42:30):
and I think that isit's a tool to be used.
And if people keep it in the toolcategory, then it's great.
but when people start
using it
and co-optingit instead for human relationships,
I think that's just going to leadto fraying of the social, social fabric.
And I think that people are goingto continue to value, probably more

(42:54):
so than ever, the human component of,
of business, and of working with
someone who knows them,who understands them, who can hear them.
And so to the degree that I can kind of
steerour company that way into really focusing
on the relational aspect of what we dowhile still being

(43:14):
operationally excellent and continuingto create value for our customers.
I think that's that'skind of where we're headed.
And that'sthat's my prediction on the future.
You talk about that human element.
And, man,I think one of our biggest takeaways
from the pandemic was just how importantthat human connection was.
And as we have as we've

(43:36):
brought peoplein to interview and hired, we're
we're unashamedlyan in-person, work environment.
And we certainly have missed outon some candidates that have
said, oh, it's not remote or,oh, it's not at least hybrid.
sorry, I'm not I'm not interested,
but I'm blown away at the number of peoplethat have said,
I'm interested in this jobbecause I like the company,

(43:59):
I like the culture, but I can't workanother day out of my house.
I have to get out.
I have to be aroundthe people that I'm working with.
I have to feel a part of something.
And so I think, I think what you justsaid, Taylor, is, is absolutely spot on.
Roy, what about you?
What is what is business look like for,from studio over the next year?

(44:21):
Yeah, I think.
I there's that bookcalled Thinking in Bets.
And so I'll use that phrase here, but,
we're right nowjust putting bets on the board.
so over the next year,
we'll have very little gratificationof not eating the donut.
I might weigh a little bit less tomorrowif I just avoid the alcohol
and the donuts,but it's honestly going to be a everyday

(44:43):
discipline of making the decisionsbefore I see any kind of pay off.
So, honestly, my goal pretty muchevery month, whenever we do our,
you know, we close them.Either way, we're still in business.
Baby. Let's go.
People pay us, we build, we got money.
We got operating capital.Let's let's keep pressing that.
So right now,I'm kind of just risk on taking bets.
Not anything crazy.

(45:04):
I'm a I'm a cheap ass at heart,and so I don't.
I'm pretty frugal with things.
and so I would just say
I'm predicting a year of steady, and just
really, am I going to take this medicine?
Am I going to try to go for fastgains and ratchet up?
and if I do that, if you interview menext year, I'll be out of business.

(45:27):
and so if I just stay the course
and just try to make payrollthis month and month over month, I'll be.
I'll be good.
So not just launching things as they go.
So that's where I'm at.
really talking about being conservativefor for those that may not have listened,
go check out his episode and he talksabout playing with house money and,

(45:48):
you know, setting yourselfup, in different ways.
So I'm glad that you remembered somethingfrom our podcast.
Scott. Dude,I remember a lot from our podcast.
I actually have known youfor over a decade,
and I learned so much about you thatsomehow Scott pulled out in the podcast.
I was like,how have I never heard this before?
Forge. Forge signatures.

(46:09):
Asking these questions. They were coming.
All right, I learned I learned a lot
from Justin's, too, by the way,that was one of my favorites as well.
Thanks to.
Justin.
You're getting you're getting things offthe ground.
What what is what is day to daylook like for you right now?
Wow. my wife asks me that.

(46:31):
Right?
Like, we go through our calendars andshe's like, what is your week look like?
And it's just, it's a it's weird. Right?
Like you, I have 4 or 5 things thatI'm doing, all of which could be a future.
And, it's also like, man,I could make all four of these a future.
So it's a lot of platesthat are spinning in the air.
And, I'm just trying to keep the ones spinning
and letting those dropthat really have no future.

(46:53):
But it's fun.
And what I'll say is that,
it's as an entrepreneur, it'salso really fun to be at zero, right?
Because you have nowhere to go but up,
you know,and you kind of set goals as you go
because you can set unrealistic goals,which really hurt your first year.
Or you can set, you know, conservative goals, which helps

(47:15):
you blow it out of the waterand you feel like a hero.
So that's kind of where we're at withsome of these startup things.
but yeah,
I would say that as far as day to daygoes, you kind of make of it
what you want.
you know, spending more time with kids.
I do work for a nonprofit,which is, you know,

(47:36):
hugely rewarding.
so it's it's just really encouragingto have a little bit of freedom.
Freedom of thought.
And I do want to, say one thing about,
when we were talking about big eventsand being lower middle market.
you know what?
I realized?
Our company during Covid pivoted,and we were medical ways.

(47:56):
So we were rightin the middle of everything.
And that's when entrepreneurship came out.
And we had guys that worked,you know, heavy hours.
We had to hire people.
We are we grew by $1 million,our top line just from being Covid.
And then you lose that moneyand you want to take care of those folks.
So then you have to workreally, really hard.

(48:18):
And what that created in our businesswas just a we can get through
any hard times mentality,and we still kept our priorities.
So we weren't overworking.
And I think that's why you see these
lower, smaller, B2B companiesbeing very successful is they didn't,
they didn't develop this laziness.

(48:41):
It was created in these large corporationsthat seem to be overloaded with money.
So, I think that's whywe were successful.
And whatever business is next,it's going to have the same mentality of,
you know, work hard, love each other.
Well, stay
aggressive, but not to the
point where you losesight of where your priorities are.

(49:04):
I love it.
Well, when we were planning for thisand I went to our marketing department
with the idea for for this format,they said, okay, well, Scott,
if you're going to ask them questions,you have to open
up, yourselfand you have to sit in the hot seat.
So everybody,each of you gets to, to fire away,

(49:24):
and whoever wants to go first,how about it?
I guess I'll go.
when you were in my office,you had a really bad rash
that you were.
no. What? So.

(49:47):
All right.
Yeah.
All right, so what decision are you goingto make the next six months? That
you thinkwill literally fork the business?
Is there is there something looming,then or in Scott's life?
I'm sure things
you can't say it publicly,but I'm sure there are things you can say.

(50:10):
what decision is looming for you?
What it like is ish.
What is it,and how are you kind of framing it up?
And who are you soliciting feedback for?
Yeah.
Taylor, when you were talkingabout one of the books,
I think it was slow productivityand it was like, pick a few things
and do them really, really well.

(50:31):
that got me thinking about
areas in, in our businesswhere we have failed, our areas
where we thought, oh, we can take this onand take this on and take this on,
but not truly dedicate resourcesto those things.
And we've had a number of false startson things
because we haven't really had the, the,the resources to commit to them.

(50:55):
And so
what this looks like for me
is figuring out what is truly,truly important and what is not.
And let's figure outhow to devote the right resources
so that we can actually make a dentin that thing that we're wanting to do.
I give you some examples.
There's some partnershipsthat we've we've attempted to take on, but

(51:19):
years later,we've really got nowhere with it
because we didn't put somebody full time.
Like that's what theythat was their mission in
life was to wake up every day
thinking about this partnershipand building out this service offering.
And we got a year into itand we're scratching our heads,
going, well, why didn'twhy don't we have any projects in this?
Well, we didn'twe didn't really devote ourselves to it.

(51:39):
And so, and funny enough, last week,
one of those kinds of thingswhere we wanted to build out this,
the service offering,we kind a lead on our website and
from there it was like,well, we're not going to do this.
All right.
Let me reach out to folks in my networkand hand this person off to somebody
who does wake up every daythinking about this.

(52:00):
So it's it's more of those kindsof things, figuring out
what are we going to do and figuring outhow to allocate the resources to them.
Make sense?
And just how
how I have an A in B in mind is
much more, you know, germane than Roy's.

(52:22):
How bad is Texas going to beat A&M
at Kyle Field this year.
And one B how are you going to wrestlewith that loss.
And then number two what is going.
This is second question.
what is the most dog eared bookthat you keep returning to?

(52:47):
that you like, pick upand you just come back to over and over
and over again, either, from a businessperspective, let's exclude the Bible.
what? Yeah.
What is what is a dog eared book
that you come back to either for businessor if it might even be fiction.
But, yeah, those are my.
1 or 2 gonna I'mgonna answer your second question first.

(53:08):
easily.
Essentialism by Greg McEwan.
If you haven't read it, can't recommend ithighly enough.
it is a book that I tell myselfI need to read it at least once a year,
and it probably ends up being every 18to 24 months that I pick it back up.
But, and again, like this,this idea that we were just talking

(53:29):
about of, you know, pick a few thingsand do them well, that's
that's one
thing that you can take from this,but it goes much further.
And, and applies to so many aspectsof your life, like down the
how much clutter do you havein your closet and, you know,
get rid of get rid of physical things,get rid of time sucks.

(53:50):
Get rid of get rid of everythingthat is not essential to your life.
And I'd be lying if I said that I have,like, achieved, essentialism.
I think it's it's kind of like balance.
You're always having to balance. Right.
And so, so,so many takeaways from from that book,
speaking of things that are essential,like college football.

(54:11):
man, I,
I don't even know what to dowith that question.
We open this weekend against Notre Dame,which,
is a great way to start your seasonwith a brand new coach.
so it's going to be interesting.
Playing at Kyle Field is
even for, you know, the number one teamcoming into Kyle Field.

(54:34):
You know, that's a that's a factor.
And so I like her chances.
But I'm not going to be so brashas to say that we're going to stomp them.
but I might cry if we don't.
Are you go into that game.
I wish that would be incredible, but, not not in the cards this year.
Yeah.
I was looking at the resale valueof those tickets just for whatever reason,

(54:56):
and they're, like, insane.
You can buy crazy.
You can buy Thanksgiving Day ticketsfor the Dallas Cowboys game, which is
always a big game, cheaper than you canbuy tickets to the A&M Texas game.
And it's by several multiples.
that that the A&MTexas game is more as well.
All right.
Justin,
I wasn't listening for a minutebecause you start talking about football.

(55:19):
And I went to Kentucky, so nothing to see.
You got to Stoops.That's true, that's true.
so my question, Scott,is about in the thick of it.
what is something
you wishyou would have edited that you did not?
And what's something you wishyou would not have edited that you did?

(55:40):
And I know that's on the spot.
I was going to email it ahead of time, butI'm like, no, it's kind of on the spot.
This might be more fun.
So, man, that's an interesting question.
I, I can only think of a handful of thingsthat we have edited out
that somebody didn't ask us to take out.

(56:01):
one of the things that we tell peoplewhen they,
when they come in the studio is, hey,you know, we can cut this up.
And if you get into somethingand you get into a topic area
and you realizeafter the after after the fact,
you don't want that out in the worldand just let us know and we can cut it.
And that has happened.
people have kind of said some things
that,you know, didn't mean any, anything by

(56:22):
but afterward thought, you know, maybe,maybe that might not come across.
Right. So we've, we've,
we've only ever we've taken things outthat people have requested.
We did have an interview, where
we talked to somebody
about their inspiration for startingwhat was their first business.
And I'm not going to,
I'm not going to elaboratetoo much on this, but

(56:45):
when we asked about their motivationto get into their very first business,
it was something that was probably not,
the sort of thing thatmost of our audience would resonate with.
And I'm just going to leave itvery, very vague.
And so, we we cut that out.
thank you for cutting that out.
I really appreciate it.
I wasn't so sure.

(57:09):
no, but nobody on this podcast, on this,this episode.
so what is something I wish that I don't
I don't really have anything that I,I wish that we
would have edited out, I'm
I'm so thrilled with the gueststhat we've had

(57:29):
and the relationships and,you know, the the
six degrees of separation that have,you know, introduced me to people
that I never would have met had it
not been for, connecting with peoplethrough and through this podcast.
And so I'm just so, so grateful.
And the feedback that we've got fromlisteners has been just awesome.
And there have been so manyrewarding things that have come out.

(57:52):
Relationships being a huge one.
But shortly after,
one of our episodes launched last fall,I think it was early October.
I met the guest for For drinks a coupleweeks after his episode had launched.
He said, hey,I'm by and I'm like, no, man, I got this.
He goes, no, I'm buying somebodylisten to the episode that I was on
and they're now a client.

(58:13):
And he said, I got drinks.
And to be able to help impactsomebody else's business
that waywas just such a such a rewarding thing.
Was that Steve?
Yes. Taylor.
Actually, you were the client, Steve Durman
yeah,he we met for drinks and he's like, dude,
I picked up a new clientbecause of the podcast. And that was.
You were the client, too?

(58:34):
I was, I was in Phoenixlast week with Steve.
and his whole team came outand filmed film stuff for us.
He's it.
I love that episode.
I loved his perspective on stuff.
And he's a he's absolutely theirtheir whole team is like killing it.
Well so yeah that came as a relationship.
There's a connectionthrough in the Thick of it.

(58:55):
Well and to the point you were madeyou made about Roy earlier.
You've known him for how long and youlearn things about him you didn't know.
I've known Steve for,I don't know, 15, 18 years.
And I didn't know the originsof the name of his company.
And so it's it's been it's been awesome.
well, guys, this has been so much fun.Thank you.
thank you for being, not just a part of today,

(59:18):
but a part of this thingthat we've created.
you know, we've all become just greatfriends and relationships that I treasure.
And I'm thankful for all of you.
And, thankfulfor those that are listening. So
we're out.
Thanks, Scott. Thanks Venn.Thank you Scott.
Thank you guys.

(59:40):
If you or a founder you know would liketo be a guest on In the Thick of It.
Email us at intro@founderstory.us.

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