March 25, 2025 • 35 mins
Step into the inspiring world of Carlo Acutis, a modern-day saint whose life story beautifully intertwines faith and technology. In this episode, we explore how Carlo became a beacon of hope and relatability for youth today. With heartfelt stories shared by our guest, Katie Prejean McGrady, we discuss how Carlo exemplifies the joy of living one's faith authentically in the ever-evolving landscape of modern life.
Through powerful anecdotes and insightful dialogue, we shine a light on his exceptional dedication to the Eucharist, his groundbreaking use of the internet for spreading kindness and faith, and the profound impact he has on listeners of all ages. Discover why Carlo’s approach resonates so deeply with today’s youth and how his legacy encourages us all to embody kindness in our interactions. As we navigate the complexities of a connected world, Carlo’s story serves as a reminder that holiness can be found in our ordinary lives.
Join the conversation and consider how you can witness to hope just as Carlo did. Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review to help spread the inspiring message of this modern saint!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
I am joined today by KatiePrejean-McGrady, who's a wife,
mom, award-winning author,international speaker, podcaster
and daily radio show host.
(00:42):
She is here to talk to us abouther good friend, carlo Akoudis,
who's going to be canonized inthis Jubilee Year of Hope.
Good morning, I never know like.
Do you just start talking?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I don't know, I always hate the beginning of
podcasts, like because it's notmorning for most of the people.
No, who are listening to it?
They're not.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
No, it's good evening , good afternoon, but anyway
we're here to talk about Carloand Katie.
I know you love Carlo and Ijust want to hear your passion,
I just want to hear why you lovehim.
But can you start by talkingabout about his life, because I
think a lot of people know abouthim.
But I think a lot of peopleknow kind of the hot you know
(01:19):
things about and I would ratherthat you kind of present who is
Carlo and like why?
Why are we even talking abouthis canonization?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Who wasn't Carlo is the, the consummate millennial
symbol of hope.
I think, you know, as a 35 yearold, somebody made it, like one
of us made it, despite the factthat we lived at the time of
the millennium change, and, likeyou know, a boy who loved John
Paul II and saw the Benedict XVIpapacy, and just a young man.
(01:52):
So I love Carlo very personallyfor, I think, three reasons.
I was thinking about it beforewe hopped on.
He does, I think, give thatmillennial hopefulness of
holiness.
I really love the way Carlohe's known as kind of like the
web designer, media guy, but hewas a little ahead of his time
in recognizing now somethingthat the Vatican says the
internet is a culture, it is aplace of encounter, and he
(02:13):
really saw that for what it wasdecades before it would become
what it is, and he was kind.
I think Carlo's kindness issomething that really should be
emphasized.
His mom talks about this a lot.
So carlo was born into thisupper middle class family.
I mean he was born in londonand they moved to milan.
He went to really good schools.
He had a nanny.
I mean this was not a kid whosuffered in terms of, you know,
(02:35):
not having his favorite toys orhis favorite clothes or his
favorite foods, and he was anonly child and I always I always
emphasize this like carlo didnot have siblings while he was
alive.
His siblings were born fouryears after he died, in some
ways kind of his first miraclethat his mom, after struggling
with secondary infertility, theywere able to conceive twins.
So Carlo was kind of and thisisn't talked about a whole lot
(02:57):
he wasn't a depressed kid, buthe was a lonely kid at times.
He didn't have siblings.
He took a liking to video gamesbecause it gave him the chance
to play against other people orto, like invite friends over to
his house after school.
He was incredibly gentle andkind with his, his playmates and
his classmates.
There's this one story hisnanny would tell about how like
kids would pick on him at schooland he would just kind of let
(03:20):
them, and it's like he wasn'tpassive and he wasn't just, oh
yeah, like let everybody walkall over me, but more, just,
well, they must be angry forsome reason.
So like, if they have to takeit out on me, a kid who really
isn't suffering in any otherelement of his life, then like
let them and I.
That that's holy.
You know, sometimes peoplewrite carlo off as the kid in
sneakers, with the guy withpokemon cards in his pocket, and
(03:42):
yeah, that's the cartoonversion of Carlo.
But if you really look at hisheart, there was a kindness in
the way he encountered peopleand a desire for that to really
shine in the work that he did,even as a 15 year old.
I mean, he was working for thekingdom and so I've been
captivated by his story.
He kind of he found me.
I was doing a test episode ofthe Katie McGrady show on Sirius
(04:05):
XM in August of 2020.
It was one hour.
We took calls about saints andfor some reason, like as I'm
Googling saints while I'm liveon the air and taking calls,
this news alert came on.
I mean and truly like I can'texplain it other than like Carlo
was fiddling on my computerfrom heaven about his
beatification, than like Carlowas fiddling on my computer from
(04:26):
heaven about his beatification,which was later that fall being
live streamed because of thepandemic.
And it's so appropriate that,one, I kind of found him in this
accidental way and then, two,got to know him in a global
shutdown through the internet,which was the means that he did
ministry.
So I love the guy.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
You know, when going back to the idea of like, doing
ministry through the internetand like this idea of this, we
have this digital continent toevangelize.
You know there are a lot ofpeople that would say no
evangelizations person to personand it has to be in person.
And Jesus didn't use theinternet.
And I mean there's all thiscriticism that you know that the
, the, the technology isimpersonal and the gospel is
(05:05):
supposed to be personal.
And what do you think,especially you who use
technology?
And well, what do you thinkCarla would say to that, like,
why do you say that he did seethe internet and he did use
technology as an encounter?
I think that's an importantword.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah Well, I mean, technically, the Sermon on the
Mount could have been incrediblyimpersonal.
The guy standing in the back ofthe crowd is 5,000 people away
from Jesus and yet he's stillmoved by what he hears.
The internet is as personal oras impersonal as we make it.
I met my husband on Facebook.
So like two humans existbecause of the internet and
they're my children who looklike us right.
So like the internet is a placeof encounter, when these
(05:42):
moments of interaction canbecome substantial, real
friendships.
And sometimes that exists in adigital space.
It's texting, it's calling,it's zooming, it's listening to
recorded podcasts, and then itbecomes an in-person experience.
Right, Carlo went to theseplaces, the places of the
Eucharistic miracles, to takephotos, because he knew a lot of
(06:03):
people might not be able to gothere and so he wanted to bring
them into the encounter he hadhad.
So he saw the internet as insome ways, I think, kind of the
modern day Roman forum, theplace where we can gather.
That then would spark,hopefully, more intimate and
personal one-on-one interactions.
And so I mean he was very aheadof his time in learning how to
(06:23):
code and learning how to craftthese websites and even playing
the most popular video gamesthat were out there and Pokemon,
which is still popular to thisday.
Surprisingly, I do feel likeCarlo would have been like, okay
, Pokemon goes a bit much, buthe also might've been the kid
who could have convinced thePope to put some Pokemon go
characters in St Peter's square,Like I wouldn't have put it
past him.
So I think he saw it as thelaunch pad for those intimate
(06:48):
encounters.
And, yeah, I do think Jesuswould have used the internet I
mean, God is all powerful If hewanted to snuff it out right now
, I guess he could.
But instead he allows us to doboth good and ill along these
methods of communication.
But ultimately, I think when wekeep Carlo in the front of our
mind, I play this little gamesometimes where I'm like what
would Carlo tweet right now?
(07:08):
And that usually stops me fromtweeting other things, because
it's like Carlo would have a lotof self-control and he'd
probably have great screen timeboundaries when it comes to his
phone.
But he also would not have beenafraid to wade into those
waters, because we saw him doingthat already with a very
rudimentary website now, but atthe time was incredibly ahead of
(07:29):
better than the Vatican website, right Ahead of its curve in
terms of its design andaccessibility, and still present
and active to this day.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, and we see in the book his mom wrote, we do
see that he put boundaries onhimself on video games and he
had that self-control and we'regoing to talk about his kindness
in a second but he had thatkind that, those virtues that
enabled him to use this for thegood.
Um, I love what you you pointedout, because some people might
not know that he did go onpilgrimage to these places and
(07:57):
and wanted to bring them toother people.
So we have this, this boy ofwealth that is using I.
He traveled extensively andthen he wanted to bring that to
those who couldn't, but yet healso spurred think about how
many people now go to theseplaces because Carlo brought
them.
We went to Lanciano last monthand Lanciano, one of the
Eucharistic miracles, wasCarlo's favorite if you could
(08:19):
have a favorite Eucharisticmiracle because of the
scientific study done around itand we went on pilgrimage and
talked about how Carlo broughtthis to people through their
computer screens.
Right, we were blessed to gosee it, but so we still now go
on pilgrimage in the footstepsof Carlo as well.
So he inspired that continuallearning and continual
pilgrimage.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
One of my favorite things from World Youth Day in
Portugal was so many peopletaking pictures in front of the
wall where Carlo took a picture.
Yes, and kind of likerecreating that moment and it's
so cool to think that in the2000s we can do that.
I mean you can do that withsome of the other saints.
And my favorite is when somebodydoes the deep cut where they
dress up as St Therese, dressedup as Joan of Arc, for All
(09:00):
Saints Day and it's like you geta double whammy right there,
like I love the saints of oldand I love the unknown and the
well-known and the ones whoseeverybody's kids are named after
them.
And then you meet that onelittle nerdy Catholic kid named
Athanasius right, and you'relike, oh, wow, like your parents
went for the deep cut.
But I love that, as a 35 yearold born in the late 80s, I can
(09:21):
look to a kid born in the 90sand say like yeah, he knew the
same world I knew and saw itkind of for what it was.
You know, carlo died in 05.
The iPhone came out in what?
06 07.
So he didn't have a smartphonedevice, he didn't have a selfie
cam, he didn't have bluetoothheadphones the technology was
different.
But he absolutely had an AIMaccount the way that we all had
(09:46):
as like 14, 15 year olds.
He had a MySpace.
Like he knew that this socialmedia world was developing where
people could connect andrecognized.
I got to set some boundariesfor this recognized.
I can use what my parents areoffering to me.
My favorite story is his dad.
They offered to take him to theHoly Land and he went.
No, thank you, I'm good, like Ican just go to Mass and on the
(10:07):
one hand it's like, oh lateCarlo, like you could have gone
to the Holy Land, like everybodywants to go to the Holy Land,
but also he felt like I can bejust as close to Jesus at the
parish that I go to daily Massat, with all these old Italian
nonas and these Earisticpilgrimage sites that I can get
to by train and and by planeright here in europe, and I love
that about him.
(10:28):
We have no evidence that carloever visited the united states,
but I feel like he would haveabsolutely cut it up going to
all the different pilgrimagesites here in this country, but
also like we can do that and wecan walk in those same footsteps
in the holy places that we cango.
And really he gives us theexample and model of just
authentically sharing.
They weren't professionalphotos, they weren't even the
(10:51):
most like glitzy, glamorousdescriptions of these
eucharistic miracles.
It's a 15 year old kid'swritings, and so there is a
humility and a fervor and, likeyou could, he was such an
earnest guy and who loved jesusso much that he made a website
for him.
That should give us all someencouragement that well, if a 15
year old kid can evangelize inthat way because he knew what he
(11:12):
was good at and he wanted to doit in this way.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
We all can't right, don't let anything stop you
don't like you're.
You are good enough, you havethe words.
You you know we could allalways learn more, we could
always love more, but you, rightnow, you have what it takes to
share the gospel with someone,probably.
And don't let yourself betalked out of it, because it's
the devil telling you you're notgood enough, you're not holy
(11:35):
enough, you're not smart enough,you can't write well enough,
you can't speak well enough.
Yeah, that's false, right.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think that's why we call them the Satan sneakers.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I wear sneakers, you wear sneakers.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I think that's why little kids are so captivated by
him too.
Have you noticed this?
So I have a seven-year-old anda four-year-old.
Carlo was 15 when he died, solike I've always kind of had him
in the category of liketeenagers love Carlo, and they
do.
When I give talks to youngpeople they sit up a little
(12:10):
straighter when they hear aboutBlessed Carlo because there is
this immediate relatability.
But I've been struck in thepast year or so pretty much
since they announced thecanonization was coming last May
that little, little kids likemy seven-year-old daughter is
just captivated by his story andI think it's so appropriate
that his canonization is comingduring the jubilee of teenagers.
And like age is a funny thing.
So we say teenagers and I thinkhigh school, but like in Italy,
like teenagers, like there'sgoing to be like 10 year olds
(12:30):
there.
So like it's a very differentand like youth for them is like
all the way to the twenties,right.
So so I think it's going to beso cool to look around and see
families of young ones.
Um, we're bringing our familyto the canonization in April and
, through the grace of God andthrough some, you know,
well-connected people that I'mable to, rose is going to
(12:50):
receive her first communionwhile we're in Rome before the
canonization, and it was themost touching thing she said to
me on the car ride one morning,completely unprompted.
So we drive past a church onthe way to school every day and
we wave and say, hi, jesus'sjust like a little way to put
jesus in our day without beinglike them.
Thou we're going to do this big, long, drawn out prayer thing
while listening to the wickedsoundtrack.
So we say hi, jesus.
(13:11):
And rose goes, mom, when's myfirst communion?
And I said may 10th, daddy'sbirthday.
Um, and it's also mother's dayweekend, so it's kind of a
double whammy.
And it happens to be theanniversary of when we met pope
francis last.
So it's like just very excitedfor May 10th.
And she went oh well, that'safter Carlo's canonization.
And I said, yeah, it's going tobe like two weeks after we get
back from Rome.
And she went.
(13:31):
I just really love to receiveJesus when we celebrate Carlo
being with Jesus.
So I'm crying in the front seatof the van and like, ok, text
priests immediately to see whatis canonically allowed here.
So we get permission from ourpastor.
He he's like, yep, she seemslike she's ready.
We talk to the teacher, we talkto the nun at the church, we
coordinate some things withfriends, and so she's going to
(13:53):
receive communion on thethursday before his canonization
in assisi, and then we're goingto go visit his grave as a
family after she's receivedcommunion for the first time and
then celebrate, you know, thisepic party celebrating our boy
for his canonization.
And this was like we talk aboutcarlo.
She's got the comic book we'vewatched a video like she knows
mommy talks about.
We've got pictures of himthroughout the house like they
(14:14):
called him our cousin for alittle while because they were
confused why we had this italiankid in our home.
But there was this, captivated.
oh, he's like me, like he'sburied in a sweatshirt and Nikes
and, like Rose, wears asweatshirt and Nikes and it was
completely.
She just saw him for what hewas and I think that's why,
(14:36):
politically, they pushed thisthrough rather quickly, why
there's this.
We got to do this in thejubilee year because he is such
a symbol of hope and I'm soencouraged by the so she shared
this with all of her classmatesthat she's going to get to
receive first communion earlyand the teacher was like can you
please bring us some like holycards?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
or some medals.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I said don't worry, I'm on it and so because, like
the second grade class, loveshim.
If we could bring them all withus, we totally would, and I
just, I love that.
It's all ages, it's allgenerations, but especially this
tenderness for little ones.
That that I don't know, thatCarlo would have anticipated,
that would be part of hischarism as a saint, but it is so
cool to see and I mean it makessense.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
We look up to people just a little older than us.
Sometimes, right, Like whenyou're in middle school you look
up to the high schoolers eventhe high schoolers that
shouldn't be looked up to, Right?
And so it makes sense that,like, that's relatable.
If I'm a seven year old, I'mprobably not going to look up to
a 45 year old.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But this cool teenager and thankfully he's an
amazing role model In talkingabout the Eucharist and his
(16:01):
devotion to the Eucharist andbuilding this website can you
talk a little bit about hisprayer life, because I think
sometimes he does get eclipses,just oh well, he was holy
because he did this stuff withtechnology.
But can you talk a little bitabout, like, his own personal
prayer life and maybe somethingwe could imitate there?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, I mean the famous phrase of Carlo right,
the Eucharist is my highway toheaven, which then, has been
lampooned in all these like roadtrip t-shirts over the years,
but I still, I still love it.
In fact, I have a.
I have a sticker on my desk.
I'm looking at it right now.
So it's a picture of Carlo.
It's got the Eucharisticmiracle of Lanciano host next to
it, and then that phrase he wasso captivated by the fact that
(16:39):
Jesus would become flesh, likethe Lord would want to dwell in
front of us, so he was a bigadoration guy and that he would
want to dwell within us.
And so Carlo made daily mass ahuge priority in his life, and
so a 14, 15 year old kid, hewould walk to school most days.
His family was also, you know,they're moderately wealthy, so
he had a driver, so, like hewould also sometimes be driven
(17:00):
to school, and mass would be apriority, either in the morning
or in the evening.
And if you know anything aboutthe Italian Catholic church, I
mean, yes, it's Rome, and soit's the Vatican, so it's the
home of the church, but also,like the parishes in Rome are
experiencing the same, and andwell, not Rome, but across Italy
are experiencing the samedisaffiliation crisis that we're
(17:21):
seeing all over the world.
You walk into a parish mass inMilan on a Tuesday morning.
It's going to be like 60 and 70year old grandmas and Carlo,
this 15 year old kid Right, andso I love that.
It was incrediblycounter-cultural for him to be
so devoted to the mass,especially this desire to bring
his friends.
(17:42):
So he was involved in a youknow, youth ministry program
through a parish and like wouldinvite his buddies all the time,
and so every youth minister inAmerica and around the world
like hey, like Carlo was a youthgroup kid, like you can, you
can play off of that.
He would have heard the lifeteam talks.
He would have known somecontemporary praise and worship.
I like to imagine sometimesCarlo would have done trading my
(18:02):
sorrows and like he knew thehand motions right, like that
was popular all over the world.
He knew go, make a difference.
And so I think that there'ssomething really cool about this
was a kid who recognized Ishould be close to Jesus the
Eucharist is the way to be closeto Jesus and then became so
captivated by the science ofthese Eucharistic miracles.
We have some of his writingswhere he talks about his desire
(18:24):
to be close to the Lord, hisdesire for silence, which, again
, was an incrediblycountercultural thing.
Kids who had these new deviceshad these ways to connect over
the internet to be able to playgames, and Carlo would set these
limits for himself and thatflowed from his spirituality,
that flowed from his prayer lifewe often talk too about.
You know, carlo made thiswebsite and he would talk about
(18:46):
Jesus with his friends and hewas kind.
But the first conversions thatCarlo inspired were of his
parents, because his little boyhad this Polish nanny who kind
of taught him about Jesus and hewas captivated.
And in the same way that Zaleyand Louis were like, oh, she'll
grow out of it with Therese,like his parents were like, oh,
like, this is just likereligious fanaticism as a child,
and then they realized, no, heloves the Lord.
(19:09):
Should we be paying attention?
Should we love the Lord?
And so, like his mom and dadwere brought back into the love
of the faith because of theirchild's devotion, and that, I
think, just speaks to.
There was a contemplation inhis heart.
Think just speaks to.
There was a contemplation inhis heart.
There was almost like amysticism of carlo in the way he
(19:29):
was able to enter into theeucharist is my, is my personal
source and summit and the sourceand summit.
Last thing I'll quickly say youknow carlo is buried in assisi.
It's not from assisi, didn'tever live in assisi.
He's from from Milan, was bornin London.
It's odd that he would beburied in Assisi, other than
it's an incredibly importantholy place in our church's life.
(19:50):
But Milan is just as importantin some ways and like, honestly,
I'm shocked that we didn't seesome sort of like a battle for
the body, as we saw with FultonSheen, between, like, the
archdiocese of Milan and Assisiand Rome.
But he's in Assisi and that washis request and it's been
honored.
And I've often thought like, why, you know, like, would Carlo
(20:12):
have been a Franciscan in 20years?
Would he have discerned thatvocation?
We have no way of knowing.
But then it occurred to me andcall it, I don't know, just like
kind of a, an inspiration, orit was just like in reading some
of the things he's written andthe books that were written
about his life and hearing someof the talks that his mother's
given.
Carlo was incredibly Franciscanin his desire to show people
(20:32):
Jesus in the ways that they'd beable to understand so, the
Eucharistic miracles, to try toconvince people.
And what was Francis all about?
Well, showing people Jesus.
And what did Francis all aboutWell showing people Jesus, and
(21:00):
what did Francis give us theways was kind of like the first
expression of a, of a visualrepresentation of the Lord that
Carlo then, thousands of yearslater, hundreds of years later,
picked up with this internetdevelopment that he was doing,
and so it's so appropriate thathe's just down the hill from
Francis and then, just, you know, up the hill from Claire and,
(21:21):
and I just love that, I don'tknow if he would have been a
Franciscan, but I like toimagine he probably would have
been.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, and Claire, the patroness of television.
Exactly yes, so it's like allthis you know they both were
devoted to the Eucharist andjust, yeah, I think I do want to
address kind of this, this,this strain of thought that came
out especially on social mediawhen his candidation was was
announced, where people werekind of like poo pooing Carlo as
(21:48):
being too ordinary, not radicalenough, not unusual enough in
his holiness.
It really set me off becausewe've been talking, you know,
about his relatability and howimportant that is and it is
important to see that holinessis possible for us.
But one thing that really setme off was everyone's like well,
you know, like I can use theinternet and I can do this.
(22:09):
And I was like, yeah, but areyou kind?
And it really struck me whenyou brought up at the beginning
of the episode, his kindness,because I think we write that
off as being, oh, he was kind,like, like soft or normal, like
kindness is hard, peoplekindness is hard.
And when you look at Carlo'slife, what he did was very
(22:31):
normal.
And I don't do it Right, Idon't befriend the, the, the
friendless, I don't try toencourage people to go to daily
mass, like I think we write offwhat he did as being easy, yet
when you look at our own lives.
We don't do it because it seemstoo normal, too ordinary, do
you like?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I'm sure it set you off as well, so can you kind of
speak to that?
So there were there are acouple of uh culprits on twitter
who were, you know, kind oflike I just don't have a
devotion for him.
I don't know why all you peopleare so excited about it, and it
was like oh, so you're just ajealous boy like you're just
like.
That's all it comes down to islike you're the same age as
carlo and you're just jealousthat everybody's talking about
his holiness and not yours.
(23:09):
Um, well, hey, you're alive andhe died and he's in heaven, so
get over yourself.
Like that was my, that was mynon-carlo twitter reaction.
Um, yeah, it is so easy to like, want to lampoon him and like,
oh yeah, I wear sneakers.
And like the internet, what iswhat's holy about that so much?
One, it's hard to be holyonline.
(23:29):
And two, because in thatsimplistic look I'm I'm going to
tell people about my love ofthe lord and that's gonna
captivate people when I'm gone.
Like Carlo didn't set out to bekind so that when he died at 15,
he would be canonized right.
Like it was Carlo set out to bekind because nobody else was.
(23:53):
You know, like the kids thatwould get bullied in class,
carlo would stick up for thembecause nobody else was the kid
that went to daily mass, becausehe saw the importance of it and
it didn't matter that nobodyelse was doing it.
Like that was still going to bean important priority for him.
And so I think there is.
It puts a mirror up to us inour lives when there is somebody
who is so profoundly holy andyet looks so profoundly ordinary
(24:16):
.
Because we then look at ourlife and think, okay, well, my
life is harder than his life, orI've had more dramatic things
happen, or I've you, well, mylife is harder than his life, or
I've had more dramatic thingshappen, or I've you know, like,
my life is so out of theordinary, I'm not holy.
How could he possibly haveachieved that with just those
ordinary circumstances?
And so like, there is thislampooning of it, because I
(24:37):
think there's a confrontation ofwell, he did it in these
ordinary circumstances andthere's something profound about
that.
And I think people will struggletoo, because most of our saint
stories have been told despitethe great effort of our dear
friend Meg Hunter Kilmer.
Majority of the saint storiesthat are told are just these
(24:57):
nice trite like, oh, augustine,he drank a lot and he partied a
lot and then he had this massiveconversion.
Or the Therese was this wildchild and then she loved Jesus
and died of tuberculosis.
And it's like, and Carlo, helikes the internet and he made a
website and then he died.
Well, okay, so yes, take out,he liked the Eucharist and he
made stuff on the internet.
(25:18):
He got bullied at school and hewas kind to his bullies.
He was an only child andsuffered from some loneliness
and some sadness, especially toowhen his parents were like, ah,
this religious thing is justkind of a fad until they
converted.
He was a young man who had acough, went to the hospital and
was dead in two weeks.
Like there was suffering inCarlo's life.
It was just very brief andquick and he embraced it with
(25:39):
this vulnerability of, okay,lord, like, if this is my time,
this is my time, so you justhave to go a little bit
underneath that caricaturesurface.
The art of Carlo doesn't helpus with this, because sometimes
he's just like, presented asstanding there.
It's like no, like.
Show him with a monstrance inhis hand.
Show him with a computer with amonstrance on it, like.
Show us that Eucharisticdevotion that is, showing us
(26:00):
that deep, deep love of the Lordthat made even his very
ordinary teenage life somethingvery radical at that time.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's that accountability that
we have to, like you said, likeit causes us to examine our own
lives, because sometimes thesaint stories are like, oh well,
they levitated or they had thisstigmata and it's like oh, okay
, then I'll go sit over here andI'm not called to that, right?
And he reminds us that we'recalled to it and we're called to
the hard stuff, and the hardstuff looks simple at times, but
(26:31):
I love his quote about beingborn original but many people
die as photocopies, and justthat.
You know.
We're not called now to beCarlo.
God has given us a mission inour own life.
What gifts has he given us andwhat people has he put in our
lives for us to be St Katie andSt Joan?
Right?
It's so tempting just toimitate everyone else.
(26:53):
And so now, how do we take whathe has shown us, take him as
our model and then go be a saintin our own life?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, it's such a great point that carlo, he saw
the world for what I think itwas becoming in a lot of ways,
that the interest to say thatbefore we had the facebook and
the twitter and the instagram,yeah, he, he kind of almost had
like this premonition of we'reentering into this comparison
(27:23):
culture where what I get to do,what you get to do, oh well, she
got to do this or he got to godo that, I'm not doing that.
And this competitiveness that ina lot of ways, especially in,
like, influencer world andCatholic media world, like
absolutely exists.
And there was this don't try tobe other people, like don't
even try to go be just Jesus inthe way that Jesus was Jesus,
(27:47):
but like be the little Christthat you're called to be in the
world because you've receivedJesus and he's transformed you.
And to say that in the earlytwo thousands before we, yeah,
it's, it is profound, um, and Ithink in so many ways, and I
keep saying 2005,.
Did he die in 2005?
(28:07):
I feel like I'm saying thatincorrectly, um ways and I keep
saying 2005.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Did he die in 2005?
I, I feel like I'm saying thatincorrectly.
Um, I don't want to.
It's been a long couple days.
He, he.
I thought it was reallybeautiful that he was offering
his sufferings for pope benedict.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, so it would have been before, uh,
before he died in 2006, 05 jp.
So he saw, so I was okay.
So, like we're on when we'rerecording this, we're like all
talking about the pope, so I'vebeen getting like dates in my
head all mixed up.
Yes, there is a story thattalks about.
So carlo was obviously in italyand a deeply devoted kid and he
wasn't sick at the time thatjp2 fell ill at the end of his
(28:39):
life, and so that I'm trying todo some research, like, did
carlo's mom take him down forjp2's funeral?
Because it wouldn't have beenout of the realm of possibility?
right, they were in italy youknow, millions upon millions he
could have been standing rightnext to me, so he could have
been, he could have been in, butbut that's the thing.
Like he would have.
I have no doubt that, like he Imean, obviously he went to rome
(29:00):
on multiple occasions, but it'scompletely within the realm of
possibility that he went downfor the funeral or at the very
least, to like pass by the bodyof jp2 yes and so to think like
I just I love that potential ofI'm gonna, I need to ask his mom
, I need to like find out a wayto get to antonia and say like,
okay, tell me, give me atimeline of you guys's 2005 and
2006.
(29:20):
And then when he did get sosuddenly sick and it was rapid,
and I, I sometimes I try tocontemplate like the hardship
that that must have been on hisparents and their need for faith
in those moments, and like,praise the lord carlo had
brought them back to the churchin his young life so that when
(29:42):
their son fell ill and is gonewithin two weeks, they had
something to cling to and itwasn't just the memory of their
child, but it was this deeperfaith of like, oh, my goodness,
he is with the Lord that heloved.
There's this one story of whenhe's in the hospital and his
parents, of course, are with himThey'd fallen asleep in the
chairs and the nurse comes in todo vitals and look at
everything and is going to wakeup his mom and dad to give them
(30:05):
the update on stuff.
And he went no, no, let themsleep because, like he knew his
parents were gonna have to plana funeral and he just didn't
want them to be exhausted and Ilove like that tenderness in his
heart.
Um, for a 15 year old boy.
Have you met 15 year old boys?
They're kind of punks at times,or like they, they struggle
with their sense of self andidentity.
(30:25):
Or, like in the bro andrew tateworld that exists these days,
like they're constantly beingtold this is how to be a guy,
this is how to be a man, andlike Carla was a 15 year old kid
who was nice and kind andloving.
That is radical and holy in theworld today.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, and I'd highly recommend people read the book
that his mom put together andit's.
It is very tender.
It reads as if it is a mothertalking about her son, like she
kind of goes back and and getsdistracted and goes on tangents
and it's just, it's such abeautiful testimony to a mother
who is still, I think, kind ofoverwhelmed by the fact that she
had this, this son.
(31:01):
Would you um kind of wrap us upby talking about the movie or
other ways people can find outabout Carlo?
But can you tell people whomight be interested about um the
movie or other ways people canfind out about Carlo?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
but can you tell people who might be interested
about the movie that's comingout?
Yeah, so the Roadmap to Reality.
I was so pumped when they askedme to be a part of it and then
they like came and filmed ourfamily for a day and I was like
whoa, like what I thought youwere just going to like
interview me for a couple hours.
The funny part about it and Iimagine Carlo was laughing in
heaven.
So my grandfather passed awayvery suddenly at the end of
(31:31):
March of 2024.
Like, he was fine on Sunday andhe was gone by Wednesday, and
then that following Monday andit was all during Holy Week, so
we had to have the funeral theMonday after Easter and then the
following Monday after that westarted the renovations on our
kitchen.
So it was just like absolutechaos in my life at that
particular moment.
It was a very holy death for mygrandfather.
(31:52):
I was very, very privilegedthat I was able to be there for
all of it, but it was sad, itwas rough.
And then we had this kitchenrenovation scheduled and we,
like you know, had to get itdone.
And in the middle of all that Iget a phone call from Tim
Moriarty who's like hey, we'remaking this Carlo documentary.
I, carlo documentary.
I know you love Carlo.
Can we come film about Carloand I?
Just I went to the adorationchapel and went okay, if you
(32:12):
really want me to do this, youjust need to send me like this
absolute definitive sign.
And I kid you, not Joan, I'msitting in this adoration chapel
.
It's the same chapel I've goneto my whole life.
It was the place I went andprayed all during COVID, like it
was the one safe haven that Ihad through all of the lockdowns
.
And I swear to you themonstrance it's up on, like this
little dais and this hand toGod.
(32:34):
There was like a moth flyingaround and somehow, like it
must've just been soprecariously perched on this
little stand that, like themonstrance moved.
I was not the only one in theroom that saw it, multiple
people were in the room andwe're all like is about to fall,
and so it's like you got togive me a sign.
Monstrance moves because of amoth.
Fine, so I text him back.
I'm available on this day.
(32:55):
This is the only day I'mavailable.
They come and spend the day, soit was really great to get to
talk about him.
The documentary is not justhere's carlo's life.
It's talking to people in theworld of media, especially about
how he approached the use ofthe internet and what we can
learn from that in this veryextra connected world 20 years
after his death, as well astalking about the impact he's
(33:18):
had on people's families andtheir lives, and so I think it's
going to be a really coolpresentation that we haven't yet
seen of carlo's life and, veryprovidentially, a lot of the
people who were interviewed forit had similar stories of like
yeah, carlo kind of told mewithout question I had to do
this, despite the fact that itwas incredibly inconvenient.
So, behind the scenes I have noidea if this footage is in the
(33:38):
film they were like well, wewant to film your family like
living their life, and so mykids at school that day.
So I, like they would do myinterview in the morning.
They record a lot of stuffwhile I'm doing my show in my
home studio.
The kids get home at 3.30 withTommy and they're like well, we
want to film you cooking a meal.
I was like guys, I have nokitchen.
There's a hole in my house, soTommy had to grill up some pork
(33:59):
steaks really quickly.
We eat them outside and they'relike, we want to film you guys
praying at a cemetery.
So we drove, drove to thecemetery to go pray at my
grandfather's grave and like, inthe midst of all of it,
claire's acting bananas and roseis like why are there cameras
everywhere?
It was an insane afternoon andI really hope it turned out well
.
And I've seen the trailer, ofcourse, for the film and I've
heard some of the stuff thatthey've included in it.
(34:20):
I think it's going to bephenomenal.
And, uh, it comes out theweekend of his canonization, so
I don't even get to go to thepremiere because I'm going to be
at the canonization.
I think I'm winning in thatregard, like I can see the movie
anytime.
He's only becoming a saint onthis one day and I'm not going
to miss that.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
I love it.
Do you know how people can seethe film?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, so fathomeventscom is where you can
go find all the information ofwhat theaters it's going to be
at.
You can buy tickets there, soit'll come out.
I believe it premieres Aprilthe 25th.
It'll be in theaters throughthe 27th and then available on
streaming platforms after that.
But go see it in theatersbecause it's just, it's epic.
We have a movie about our boy,right Carlo's going to be in
theaters.
(34:59):
We got it.
We got to go check that out.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
That's awesome.
Well, thanks, katie.
Thanks for coming on andtalking about your boy, carlo,
and it was great and we will bepraying for you on pilgrimage as
you go to experience thecanonization so thanks so much,
John yeah.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
(35:22):
individual looking for a trip,Verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashJubilee for all our Jubilee
dates and for more information.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
I am joined today by KatiePrejean-McGrady, who's a wife,
mom, award-winning author,international speaker, podcaster
and daily radio show host.
(00:42):
She is here to talk to us abouther good friend, carlo Akoudis,
who's going to be canonized inthis Jubilee Year of Hope.
Good morning, I never know like.
Do you just start talking?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I don't know, I always hate the beginning of
podcasts, like because it's notmorning for most of the people.
No, who are listening to it?
They're not.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
No, it's good evening , good afternoon, but anyway
we're here to talk about Carloand Katie.
I know you love Carlo and Ijust want to hear your passion,
I just want to hear why you lovehim.
But can you start by talkingabout about his life, because I
think a lot of people know abouthim.
But I think a lot of peopleknow kind of the hot you know
(01:19):
things about and I would ratherthat you kind of present who is
Carlo and like why?
Why are we even talking abouthis canonization?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Who wasn't Carlo is the, the consummate millennial
symbol of hope.
I think, you know, as a 35 yearold, somebody made it, like one
of us made it, despite the factthat we lived at the time of
the millennium change, and, likeyou know, a boy who loved John
Paul II and saw the Benedict XVIpapacy, and just a young man.
(01:52):
So I love Carlo very personallyfor, I think, three reasons.
I was thinking about it beforewe hopped on.
He does, I think, give thatmillennial hopefulness of
holiness.
I really love the way Carlohe's known as kind of like the
web designer, media guy, but hewas a little ahead of his time
in recognizing now somethingthat the Vatican says the
internet is a culture, it is aplace of encounter, and he
(02:13):
really saw that for what it wasdecades before it would become
what it is, and he was kind.
I think Carlo's kindness issomething that really should be
emphasized.
His mom talks about this a lot.
So carlo was born into thisupper middle class family.
I mean he was born in londonand they moved to milan.
He went to really good schools.
He had a nanny.
I mean this was not a kid whosuffered in terms of, you know,
(02:35):
not having his favorite toys orhis favorite clothes or his
favorite foods, and he was anonly child and I always I always
emphasize this like carlo didnot have siblings while he was
alive.
His siblings were born fouryears after he died, in some
ways kind of his first miraclethat his mom, after struggling
with secondary infertility, theywere able to conceive twins.
So Carlo was kind of and thisisn't talked about a whole lot
(02:57):
he wasn't a depressed kid, buthe was a lonely kid at times.
He didn't have siblings.
He took a liking to video gamesbecause it gave him the chance
to play against other people orto, like invite friends over to
his house after school.
He was incredibly gentle andkind with his, his playmates and
his classmates.
There's this one story hisnanny would tell about how like
kids would pick on him at schooland he would just kind of let
(03:20):
them, and it's like he wasn'tpassive and he wasn't just, oh
yeah, like let everybody walkall over me, but more, just,
well, they must be angry forsome reason.
So like, if they have to takeit out on me, a kid who really
isn't suffering in any otherelement of his life, then like
let them and I.
That that's holy.
You know, sometimes peoplewrite carlo off as the kid in
sneakers, with the guy withpokemon cards in his pocket, and
(03:42):
yeah, that's the cartoonversion of Carlo.
But if you really look at hisheart, there was a kindness in
the way he encountered peopleand a desire for that to really
shine in the work that he did,even as a 15 year old.
I mean, he was working for thekingdom and so I've been
captivated by his story.
He kind of he found me.
I was doing a test episode ofthe Katie McGrady show on Sirius
(04:05):
XM in August of 2020.
It was one hour.
We took calls about saints andfor some reason, like as I'm
Googling saints while I'm liveon the air and taking calls,
this news alert came on.
I mean and truly like I can'texplain it other than like Carlo
was fiddling on my computerfrom heaven about his
beatification, than like Carlowas fiddling on my computer from
(04:26):
heaven about his beatification,which was later that fall being
live streamed because of thepandemic.
And it's so appropriate that,one, I kind of found him in this
accidental way and then, two,got to know him in a global
shutdown through the internet,which was the means that he did
ministry.
So I love the guy.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
You know, when going back to the idea of like, doing
ministry through the internetand like this idea of this, we
have this digital continent toevangelize.
You know there are a lot ofpeople that would say no
evangelizations person to personand it has to be in person.
And Jesus didn't use theinternet.
And I mean there's all thiscriticism that you know that the
, the, the technology isimpersonal and the gospel is
(05:05):
supposed to be personal.
And what do you think,especially you who use
technology?
And well, what do you thinkCarla would say to that, like,
why do you say that he did seethe internet and he did use
technology as an encounter?
I think that's an importantword.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah Well, I mean, technically, the Sermon on the
Mount could have been incrediblyimpersonal.
The guy standing in the back ofthe crowd is 5,000 people away
from Jesus and yet he's stillmoved by what he hears.
The internet is as personal oras impersonal as we make it.
I met my husband on Facebook.
So like two humans existbecause of the internet and
they're my children who looklike us right.
So like the internet is a placeof encounter, when these
(05:42):
moments of interaction canbecome substantial, real
friendships.
And sometimes that exists in adigital space.
It's texting, it's calling,it's zooming, it's listening to
recorded podcasts, and then itbecomes an in-person experience.
Right, Carlo went to theseplaces, the places of the
Eucharistic miracles, to takephotos, because he knew a lot of
(06:03):
people might not be able to gothere and so he wanted to bring
them into the encounter he hadhad.
So he saw the internet as insome ways, I think, kind of the
modern day Roman forum, theplace where we can gather.
That then would spark,hopefully, more intimate and
personal one-on-one interactions.
And so I mean he was very aheadof his time in learning how to
(06:23):
code and learning how to craftthese websites and even playing
the most popular video gamesthat were out there and Pokemon,
which is still popular to thisday.
Surprisingly, I do feel likeCarlo would have been like, okay
, Pokemon goes a bit much, buthe also might've been the kid
who could have convinced thePope to put some Pokemon go
characters in St Peter's square,Like I wouldn't have put it
past him.
So I think he saw it as thelaunch pad for those intimate
(06:48):
encounters.
And, yeah, I do think Jesuswould have used the internet I
mean, God is all powerful If hewanted to snuff it out right now
, I guess he could.
But instead he allows us to doboth good and ill along these
methods of communication.
But ultimately, I think when wekeep Carlo in the front of our
mind, I play this little gamesometimes where I'm like what
would Carlo tweet right now?
(07:08):
And that usually stops me fromtweeting other things, because
it's like Carlo would have a lotof self-control and he'd
probably have great screen timeboundaries when it comes to his
phone.
But he also would not have beenafraid to wade into those
waters, because we saw him doingthat already with a very
rudimentary website now, but atthe time was incredibly ahead of
(07:29):
better than the Vatican website, right Ahead of its curve in
terms of its design andaccessibility, and still present
and active to this day.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, and we see in the book his mom wrote, we do
see that he put boundaries onhimself on video games and he
had that self-control and we'regoing to talk about his kindness
in a second but he had thatkind that, those virtues that
enabled him to use this for thegood.
Um, I love what you you pointedout, because some people might
not know that he did go onpilgrimage to these places and
(07:57):
and wanted to bring them toother people.
So we have this, this boy ofwealth that is using I.
He traveled extensively andthen he wanted to bring that to
those who couldn't, but yet healso spurred think about how
many people now go to theseplaces because Carlo brought
them.
We went to Lanciano last monthand Lanciano, one of the
Eucharistic miracles, wasCarlo's favorite if you could
(08:19):
have a favorite Eucharisticmiracle because of the
scientific study done around itand we went on pilgrimage and
talked about how Carlo broughtthis to people through their
computer screens.
Right, we were blessed to gosee it, but so we still now go
on pilgrimage in the footstepsof Carlo as well.
So he inspired that continuallearning and continual
pilgrimage.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
One of my favorite things from World Youth Day in
Portugal was so many peopletaking pictures in front of the
wall where Carlo took a picture.
Yes, and kind of likerecreating that moment and it's
so cool to think that in the2000s we can do that.
I mean you can do that withsome of the other saints.
And my favorite is when somebodydoes the deep cut where they
dress up as St Therese, dressedup as Joan of Arc, for All
(09:00):
Saints Day and it's like you geta double whammy right there,
like I love the saints of oldand I love the unknown and the
well-known and the ones whoseeverybody's kids are named after
them.
And then you meet that onelittle nerdy Catholic kid named
Athanasius right, and you'relike, oh, wow, like your parents
went for the deep cut.
But I love that, as a 35 yearold born in the late 80s, I can
(09:21):
look to a kid born in the 90sand say like yeah, he knew the
same world I knew and saw itkind of for what it was.
You know, carlo died in 05.
The iPhone came out in what?
06 07.
So he didn't have a smartphonedevice, he didn't have a selfie
cam, he didn't have bluetoothheadphones the technology was
different.
But he absolutely had an AIMaccount the way that we all had
(09:46):
as like 14, 15 year olds.
He had a MySpace.
Like he knew that this socialmedia world was developing where
people could connect andrecognized.
I got to set some boundariesfor this recognized.
I can use what my parents areoffering to me.
My favorite story is his dad.
They offered to take him to theHoly Land and he went.
No, thank you, I'm good, like Ican just go to Mass and on the
(10:07):
one hand it's like, oh lateCarlo, like you could have gone
to the Holy Land, like everybodywants to go to the Holy Land,
but also he felt like I can bejust as close to Jesus at the
parish that I go to daily Massat, with all these old Italian
nonas and these Earisticpilgrimage sites that I can get
to by train and and by planeright here in europe, and I love
that about him.
(10:28):
We have no evidence that carloever visited the united states,
but I feel like he would haveabsolutely cut it up going to
all the different pilgrimagesites here in this country, but
also like we can do that and wecan walk in those same footsteps
in the holy places that we cango.
And really he gives us theexample and model of just
authentically sharing.
They weren't professionalphotos, they weren't even the
(10:51):
most like glitzy, glamorousdescriptions of these
eucharistic miracles.
It's a 15 year old kid'swritings, and so there is a
humility and a fervor and, likeyou could, he was such an
earnest guy and who loved jesusso much that he made a website
for him.
That should give us all someencouragement that well, if a 15
year old kid can evangelize inthat way because he knew what he
(11:12):
was good at and he wanted to doit in this way.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
We all can't right, don't let anything stop you
don't like you're.
You are good enough, you havethe words.
You you know we could allalways learn more, we could
always love more, but you, rightnow, you have what it takes to
share the gospel with someone,probably.
And don't let yourself betalked out of it, because it's
the devil telling you you're notgood enough, you're not holy
(11:35):
enough, you're not smart enough,you can't write well enough,
you can't speak well enough.
Yeah, that's false, right.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think that's why we call them the Satan sneakers.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I wear sneakers, you wear sneakers.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I think that's why little kids are so captivated by
him too.
Have you noticed this?
So I have a seven-year-old anda four-year-old.
Carlo was 15 when he died, solike I've always kind of had him
in the category of liketeenagers love Carlo, and they
do.
When I give talks to youngpeople they sit up a little
(12:10):
straighter when they hear aboutBlessed Carlo because there is
this immediate relatability.
But I've been struck in thepast year or so pretty much
since they announced thecanonization was coming last May
that little, little kids likemy seven-year-old daughter is
just captivated by his story andI think it's so appropriate
that his canonization is comingduring the jubilee of teenagers.
And like age is a funny thing.
So we say teenagers and I thinkhigh school, but like in Italy,
like teenagers, like there'sgoing to be like 10 year olds
(12:30):
there.
So like it's a very differentand like youth for them is like
all the way to the twenties,right.
So so I think it's going to beso cool to look around and see
families of young ones.
Um, we're bringing our familyto the canonization in April and
, through the grace of God andthrough some, you know,
well-connected people that I'mable to, rose is going to
(12:50):
receive her first communionwhile we're in Rome before the
canonization, and it was themost touching thing she said to
me on the car ride one morning,completely unprompted.
So we drive past a church onthe way to school every day and
we wave and say, hi, jesus'sjust like a little way to put
jesus in our day without beinglike them.
Thou we're going to do this big, long, drawn out prayer thing
while listening to the wickedsoundtrack.
So we say hi, jesus.
(13:11):
And rose goes, mom, when's myfirst communion?
And I said may 10th, daddy'sbirthday.
Um, and it's also mother's dayweekend, so it's kind of a
double whammy.
And it happens to be theanniversary of when we met pope
francis last.
So it's like just very excitedfor May 10th.
And she went oh well, that'safter Carlo's canonization.
And I said, yeah, it's going tobe like two weeks after we get
back from Rome.
And she went.
(13:31):
I just really love to receiveJesus when we celebrate Carlo
being with Jesus.
So I'm crying in the front seatof the van and like, ok, text
priests immediately to see whatis canonically allowed here.
So we get permission from ourpastor.
He he's like, yep, she seemslike she's ready.
We talk to the teacher, we talkto the nun at the church, we
coordinate some things withfriends, and so she's going to
(13:53):
receive communion on thethursday before his canonization
in assisi, and then we're goingto go visit his grave as a
family after she's receivedcommunion for the first time and
then celebrate, you know, thisepic party celebrating our boy
for his canonization.
And this was like we talk aboutcarlo.
She's got the comic book we'vewatched a video like she knows
mommy talks about.
We've got pictures of himthroughout the house like they
(14:14):
called him our cousin for alittle while because they were
confused why we had this italiankid in our home.
But there was this, captivated.
oh, he's like me, like he'sburied in a sweatshirt and Nikes
and, like Rose, wears asweatshirt and Nikes and it was
completely.
She just saw him for what hewas and I think that's why,
(14:36):
politically, they pushed thisthrough rather quickly, why
there's this.
We got to do this in thejubilee year because he is such
a symbol of hope and I'm soencouraged by the so she shared
this with all of her classmatesthat she's going to get to
receive first communion earlyand the teacher was like can you
please bring us some like holycards?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
or some medals.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I said don't worry, I'm on it and so because, like
the second grade class, loveshim.
If we could bring them all withus, we totally would, and I
just, I love that.
It's all ages, it's allgenerations, but especially this
tenderness for little ones.
That that I don't know, thatCarlo would have anticipated,
that would be part of hischarism as a saint, but it is so
cool to see and I mean it makessense.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
We look up to people just a little older than us.
Sometimes, right, Like whenyou're in middle school you look
up to the high schoolers eventhe high schoolers that
shouldn't be looked up to, Right?
And so it makes sense that,like, that's relatable.
If I'm a seven year old, I'mprobably not going to look up to
a 45 year old.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But this cool teenager and thankfully he's an
amazing role model In talkingabout the Eucharist and his
(16:01):
devotion to the Eucharist andbuilding this website can you
talk a little bit about hisprayer life, because I think
sometimes he does get eclipses,just oh well, he was holy
because he did this stuff withtechnology.
But can you talk a little bitabout, like, his own personal
prayer life and maybe somethingwe could imitate there?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, I mean the famous phrase of Carlo right,
the Eucharist is my highway toheaven, which then, has been
lampooned in all these like roadtrip t-shirts over the years,
but I still, I still love it.
In fact, I have a.
I have a sticker on my desk.
I'm looking at it right now.
So it's a picture of Carlo.
It's got the Eucharisticmiracle of Lanciano host next to
it, and then that phrase he wasso captivated by the fact that
(16:39):
Jesus would become flesh, likethe Lord would want to dwell in
front of us, so he was a bigadoration guy and that he would
want to dwell within us.
And so Carlo made daily mass ahuge priority in his life, and
so a 14, 15 year old kid, hewould walk to school most days.
His family was also, you know,they're moderately wealthy, so
he had a driver, so, like hewould also sometimes be driven
(17:00):
to school, and mass would be apriority, either in the morning
or in the evening.
And if you know anything aboutthe Italian Catholic church, I
mean, yes, it's Rome, and soit's the Vatican, so it's the
home of the church, but also,like the parishes in Rome are
experiencing the same, and andwell, not Rome, but across Italy
are experiencing the samedisaffiliation crisis that we're
(17:21):
seeing all over the world.
You walk into a parish mass inMilan on a Tuesday morning.
It's going to be like 60 and 70year old grandmas and Carlo,
this 15 year old kid Right, andso I love that.
It was incrediblycounter-cultural for him to be
so devoted to the mass,especially this desire to bring
his friends.
(17:42):
So he was involved in a youknow, youth ministry program
through a parish and like wouldinvite his buddies all the time,
and so every youth minister inAmerica and around the world
like hey, like Carlo was a youthgroup kid, like you can, you
can play off of that.
He would have heard the lifeteam talks.
He would have known somecontemporary praise and worship.
I like to imagine sometimesCarlo would have done trading my
(18:02):
sorrows and like he knew thehand motions right, like that
was popular all over the world.
He knew go, make a difference.
And so I think that there'ssomething really cool about this
was a kid who recognized Ishould be close to Jesus the
Eucharist is the way to be closeto Jesus and then became so
captivated by the science ofthese Eucharistic miracles.
We have some of his writingswhere he talks about his desire
(18:24):
to be close to the Lord, hisdesire for silence, which, again
, was an incrediblycountercultural thing.
Kids who had these new deviceshad these ways to connect over
the internet to be able to playgames, and Carlo would set these
limits for himself and thatflowed from his spirituality,
that flowed from his prayer lifewe often talk too about.
You know, carlo made thiswebsite and he would talk about
(18:46):
Jesus with his friends and hewas kind.
But the first conversions thatCarlo inspired were of his
parents, because his little boyhad this Polish nanny who kind
of taught him about Jesus and hewas captivated.
And in the same way that Zaleyand Louis were like, oh, she'll
grow out of it with Therese,like his parents were like, oh,
like, this is just likereligious fanaticism as a child,
and then they realized, no, heloves the Lord.
(19:09):
Should we be paying attention?
Should we love the Lord?
And so, like his mom and dadwere brought back into the love
of the faith because of theirchild's devotion, and that, I
think, just speaks to.
There was a contemplation inhis heart.
Think just speaks to.
There was a contemplation inhis heart.
There was almost like amysticism of carlo in the way he
(19:29):
was able to enter into theeucharist is my, is my personal
source and summit and the sourceand summit.
Last thing I'll quickly say youknow carlo is buried in assisi.
It's not from assisi, didn'tever live in assisi.
He's from from Milan, was bornin London.
It's odd that he would beburied in Assisi, other than
it's an incredibly importantholy place in our church's life.
(19:50):
But Milan is just as importantin some ways and like, honestly,
I'm shocked that we didn't seesome sort of like a battle for
the body, as we saw with FultonSheen, between, like, the
archdiocese of Milan and Assisiand Rome.
But he's in Assisi and that washis request and it's been
honored.
And I've often thought like, why, you know, like, would Carlo
(20:12):
have been a Franciscan in 20years?
Would he have discerned thatvocation?
We have no way of knowing.
But then it occurred to me andcall it, I don't know, just like
kind of a, an inspiration, orit was just like in reading some
of the things he's written andthe books that were written
about his life and hearing someof the talks that his mother's
given.
Carlo was incredibly Franciscanin his desire to show people
(20:32):
Jesus in the ways that they'd beable to understand so, the
Eucharistic miracles, to try toconvince people.
And what was Francis all about?
Well, showing people Jesus.
And what did Francis all aboutWell showing people Jesus, and
(21:00):
what did Francis give us theways was kind of like the first
expression of a, of a visualrepresentation of the Lord that
Carlo then, thousands of yearslater, hundreds of years later,
picked up with this internetdevelopment that he was doing,
and so it's so appropriate thathe's just down the hill from
Francis and then, just, you know, up the hill from Claire and,
(21:21):
and I just love that, I don'tknow if he would have been a
Franciscan, but I like toimagine he probably would have
been.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, and Claire, the patroness of television.
Exactly yes, so it's like allthis you know they both were
devoted to the Eucharist andjust, yeah, I think I do want to
address kind of this, this,this strain of thought that came
out especially on social mediawhen his candidation was was
announced, where people werekind of like poo pooing Carlo as
(21:48):
being too ordinary, not radicalenough, not unusual enough in
his holiness.
It really set me off becausewe've been talking, you know,
about his relatability and howimportant that is and it is
important to see that holinessis possible for us.
But one thing that really setme off was everyone's like well,
you know, like I can use theinternet and I can do this.
(22:09):
And I was like, yeah, but areyou kind?
And it really struck me whenyou brought up at the beginning
of the episode, his kindness,because I think we write that
off as being, oh, he was kind,like, like soft or normal, like
kindness is hard, peoplekindness is hard.
And when you look at Carlo'slife, what he did was very
(22:31):
normal.
And I don't do it Right, Idon't befriend the, the, the
friendless, I don't try toencourage people to go to daily
mass, like I think we write offwhat he did as being easy, yet
when you look at our own lives.
We don't do it because it seemstoo normal, too ordinary, do
you like?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I'm sure it set you off as well, so can you kind of
speak to that?
So there were there are acouple of uh culprits on twitter
who were, you know, kind oflike I just don't have a
devotion for him.
I don't know why all you peopleare so excited about it, and it
was like oh, so you're just ajealous boy like you're just
like.
That's all it comes down to islike you're the same age as
carlo and you're just jealousthat everybody's talking about
his holiness and not yours.
(23:09):
Um, well, hey, you're alive andhe died and he's in heaven, so
get over yourself.
Like that was my, that was mynon-carlo twitter reaction.
Um, yeah, it is so easy to like, want to lampoon him and like,
oh yeah, I wear sneakers.
And like the internet, what iswhat's holy about that so much?
One, it's hard to be holyonline.
(23:29):
And two, because in thatsimplistic look I'm I'm going to
tell people about my love ofthe lord and that's gonna
captivate people when I'm gone.
Like Carlo didn't set out to bekind so that when he died at 15,
he would be canonized right.
Like it was Carlo set out to bekind because nobody else was.
(23:53):
You know, like the kids thatwould get bullied in class,
carlo would stick up for thembecause nobody else was the kid
that went to daily mass, becausehe saw the importance of it and
it didn't matter that nobodyelse was doing it.
Like that was still going to bean important priority for him.
And so I think there is.
It puts a mirror up to us inour lives when there is somebody
who is so profoundly holy andyet looks so profoundly ordinary
(24:16):
.
Because we then look at ourlife and think, okay, well, my
life is harder than his life, orI've had more dramatic things
happen, or I've you, well, mylife is harder than his life, or
I've had more dramatic thingshappen, or I've you know, like,
my life is so out of theordinary, I'm not holy.
How could he possibly haveachieved that with just those
ordinary circumstances?
And so like, there is thislampooning of it, because I
(24:37):
think there's a confrontation ofwell, he did it in these
ordinary circumstances andthere's something profound about
that.
And I think people will struggletoo, because most of our saint
stories have been told despitethe great effort of our dear
friend Meg Hunter Kilmer.
Majority of the saint storiesthat are told are just these
(24:57):
nice trite like, oh, augustine,he drank a lot and he partied a
lot and then he had this massiveconversion.
Or the Therese was this wildchild and then she loved Jesus
and died of tuberculosis.
And it's like, and Carlo, helikes the internet and he made a
website and then he died.
Well, okay, so yes, take out,he liked the Eucharist and he
made stuff on the internet.
(25:18):
He got bullied at school and hewas kind to his bullies.
He was an only child andsuffered from some loneliness
and some sadness, especially toowhen his parents were like, ah,
this religious thing is justkind of a fad until they
converted.
He was a young man who had acough, went to the hospital and
was dead in two weeks.
Like there was suffering inCarlo's life.
It was just very brief andquick and he embraced it with
(25:39):
this vulnerability of, okay,lord, like, if this is my time,
this is my time, so you justhave to go a little bit
underneath that caricaturesurface.
The art of Carlo doesn't helpus with this, because sometimes
he's just like, presented asstanding there.
It's like no, like.
Show him with a monstrance inhis hand.
Show him with a computer with amonstrance on it, like.
Show us that Eucharisticdevotion that is, showing us
(26:00):
that deep, deep love of the Lordthat made even his very
ordinary teenage life somethingvery radical at that time.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's that accountability that
we have to, like you said, likeit causes us to examine our own
lives, because sometimes thesaint stories are like, oh well,
they levitated or they had thisstigmata and it's like oh, okay
, then I'll go sit over here andI'm not called to that, right?
And he reminds us that we'recalled to it and we're called to
the hard stuff, and the hardstuff looks simple at times, but
(26:31):
I love his quote about beingborn original but many people
die as photocopies, and justthat.
You know.
We're not called now to beCarlo.
God has given us a mission inour own life.
What gifts has he given us andwhat people has he put in our
lives for us to be St Katie andSt Joan?
Right?
It's so tempting just toimitate everyone else.
(26:53):
And so now, how do we take whathe has shown us, take him as
our model and then go be a saintin our own life?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, it's such a great point that carlo, he saw
the world for what I think itwas becoming in a lot of ways,
that the interest to say thatbefore we had the facebook and
the twitter and the instagram,yeah, he, he kind of almost had
like this premonition of we'reentering into this comparison
(27:23):
culture where what I get to do,what you get to do, oh well, she
got to do this or he got to godo that, I'm not doing that.
And this competitiveness that ina lot of ways, especially in,
like, influencer world andCatholic media world, like
absolutely exists.
And there was this don't try tobe other people, like don't
even try to go be just Jesus inthe way that Jesus was Jesus,
(27:47):
but like be the little Christthat you're called to be in the
world because you've receivedJesus and he's transformed you.
And to say that in the earlytwo thousands before we, yeah,
it's, it is profound, um, and Ithink in so many ways, and I
keep saying 2005,.
Did he die in 2005?
(28:07):
I feel like I'm saying thatincorrectly, um ways and I keep
saying 2005.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Did he die in 2005?
I, I feel like I'm saying thatincorrectly.
Um, I don't want to.
It's been a long couple days.
He, he.
I thought it was reallybeautiful that he was offering
his sufferings for pope benedict.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, so it would have been before, uh,
before he died in 2006, 05 jp.
So he saw, so I was okay.
So, like we're on when we'rerecording this, we're like all
talking about the pope, so I'vebeen getting like dates in my
head all mixed up.
Yes, there is a story thattalks about.
So carlo was obviously in italyand a deeply devoted kid and he
wasn't sick at the time thatjp2 fell ill at the end of his
(28:39):
life, and so that I'm trying todo some research, like, did
carlo's mom take him down forjp2's funeral?
Because it wouldn't have beenout of the realm of possibility?
right, they were in italy youknow, millions upon millions he
could have been standing rightnext to me, so he could have
been, he could have been in, butbut that's the thing.
Like he would have.
I have no doubt that, like he Imean, obviously he went to rome
(29:00):
on multiple occasions, but it'scompletely within the realm of
possibility that he went downfor the funeral or at the very
least, to like pass by the bodyof jp2 yes and so to think like
I just I love that potential ofI'm gonna, I need to ask his mom
, I need to like find out a wayto get to antonia and say like,
okay, tell me, give me atimeline of you guys's 2005 and
2006.
(29:20):
And then when he did get sosuddenly sick and it was rapid,
and I, I sometimes I try tocontemplate like the hardship
that that must have been on hisparents and their need for faith
in those moments, and like,praise the lord carlo had
brought them back to the churchin his young life so that when
(29:42):
their son fell ill and is gonewithin two weeks, they had
something to cling to and itwasn't just the memory of their
child, but it was this deeperfaith of like, oh, my goodness,
he is with the Lord that heloved.
There's this one story of whenhe's in the hospital and his
parents, of course, are with himThey'd fallen asleep in the
chairs and the nurse comes in todo vitals and look at
everything and is going to wakeup his mom and dad to give them
(30:05):
the update on stuff.
And he went no, no, let themsleep because, like he knew his
parents were gonna have to plana funeral and he just didn't
want them to be exhausted and Ilove like that tenderness in his
heart.
Um, for a 15 year old boy.
Have you met 15 year old boys?
They're kind of punks at times,or like they, they struggle
with their sense of self andidentity.
(30:25):
Or, like in the bro andrew tateworld that exists these days,
like they're constantly beingtold this is how to be a guy,
this is how to be a man, andlike Carla was a 15 year old kid
who was nice and kind andloving.
That is radical and holy in theworld today.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, and I'd highly recommend people read the book
that his mom put together andit's.
It is very tender.
It reads as if it is a mothertalking about her son, like she
kind of goes back and and getsdistracted and goes on tangents
and it's just, it's such abeautiful testimony to a mother
who is still, I think, kind ofoverwhelmed by the fact that she
had this, this son.
(31:01):
Would you um kind of wrap us upby talking about the movie or
other ways people can find outabout Carlo?
But can you tell people whomight be interested about um the
movie or other ways people canfind out about Carlo?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
but can you tell people who might be interested
about the movie that's comingout?
Yeah, so the Roadmap to Reality.
I was so pumped when they askedme to be a part of it and then
they like came and filmed ourfamily for a day and I was like
whoa, like what I thought youwere just going to like
interview me for a couple hours.
The funny part about it and Iimagine Carlo was laughing in
heaven.
So my grandfather passed awayvery suddenly at the end of
(31:31):
March of 2024.
Like, he was fine on Sunday andhe was gone by Wednesday, and
then that following Monday andit was all during Holy Week, so
we had to have the funeral theMonday after Easter and then the
following Monday after that westarted the renovations on our
kitchen.
So it was just like absolutechaos in my life at that
particular moment.
It was a very holy death for mygrandfather.
(31:52):
I was very, very privilegedthat I was able to be there for
all of it, but it was sad, itwas rough.
And then we had this kitchenrenovation scheduled and we,
like you know, had to get itdone.
And in the middle of all that Iget a phone call from Tim
Moriarty who's like hey, we'remaking this Carlo documentary.
I, carlo documentary.
I know you love Carlo.
Can we come film about Carloand I?
Just I went to the adorationchapel and went okay, if you
(32:12):
really want me to do this, youjust need to send me like this
absolute definitive sign.
And I kid you, not Joan, I'msitting in this adoration chapel
.
It's the same chapel I've goneto my whole life.
It was the place I went andprayed all during COVID, like it
was the one safe haven that Ihad through all of the lockdowns
.
And I swear to you themonstrance it's up on, like this
little dais and this hand toGod.
(32:34):
There was like a moth flyingaround and somehow, like it
must've just been soprecariously perched on this
little stand that, like themonstrance moved.
I was not the only one in theroom that saw it, multiple
people were in the room andwe're all like is about to fall,
and so it's like you got togive me a sign.
Monstrance moves because of amoth.
Fine, so I text him back.
I'm available on this day.
(32:55):
This is the only day I'mavailable.
They come and spend the day, soit was really great to get to
talk about him.
The documentary is not justhere's carlo's life.
It's talking to people in theworld of media, especially about
how he approached the use ofthe internet and what we can
learn from that in this veryextra connected world 20 years
after his death, as well astalking about the impact he's
(33:18):
had on people's families andtheir lives, and so I think it's
going to be a really coolpresentation that we haven't yet
seen of carlo's life and, veryprovidentially, a lot of the
people who were interviewed forit had similar stories of like
yeah, carlo kind of told mewithout question I had to do
this, despite the fact that itwas incredibly inconvenient.
So, behind the scenes I have noidea if this footage is in the
(33:38):
film they were like well, wewant to film your family like
living their life, and so mykids at school that day.
So I, like they would do myinterview in the morning.
They record a lot of stuffwhile I'm doing my show in my
home studio.
The kids get home at 3.30 withTommy and they're like well, we
want to film you cooking a meal.
I was like guys, I have nokitchen.
There's a hole in my house, soTommy had to grill up some pork
(33:59):
steaks really quickly.
We eat them outside and they'relike, we want to film you guys
praying at a cemetery.
So we drove, drove to thecemetery to go pray at my
grandfather's grave and like, inthe midst of all of it,
claire's acting bananas and roseis like why are there cameras
everywhere?
It was an insane afternoon andI really hope it turned out well
.
And I've seen the trailer, ofcourse, for the film and I've
heard some of the stuff thatthey've included in it.
(34:20):
I think it's going to bephenomenal.
And, uh, it comes out theweekend of his canonization, so
I don't even get to go to thepremiere because I'm going to be
at the canonization.
I think I'm winning in thatregard, like I can see the movie
anytime.
He's only becoming a saint onthis one day and I'm not going
to miss that.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
I love it.
Do you know how people can seethe film?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, so fathomeventscom is where you can
go find all the information ofwhat theaters it's going to be
at.
You can buy tickets there, soit'll come out.
I believe it premieres Aprilthe 25th.
It'll be in theaters throughthe 27th and then available on
streaming platforms after that.
But go see it in theatersbecause it's just, it's epic.
We have a movie about our boy,right Carlo's going to be in
theaters.
(34:59):
We got it.
We got to go check that out.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
That's awesome.
Well, thanks, katie.
Thanks for coming on andtalking about your boy, carlo,
and it was great and we will bepraying for you on pilgrimage as
you go to experience thecanonization so thanks so much,
John yeah.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
(35:22):
individual looking for a trip,Verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashJubilee for all our Jubilee
dates and for more information.
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