April 8, 2025 • 39 mins
Christine Wohar takes us deep into the life of Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati as we anticipate his long-awaited canonization this summer during the Jubilee Year of Hope. As Executive Director of Frassati USA, Christine shares the fascinating story of how this young Italian man who died at just 24 years old continues to captivate Catholics worldwide with his remarkable ordinariness.
Born into a prominent family, Pier Giorgio's upbringing wasn't overtly religious. Yet despite living through World War I, the Spanish flu pandemic, and the rise of fascism under Mussolini, he developed extraordinary devotion to the Eucharist and service to the poor that ultimately led thousands to flood the streets at his funeral in 1925.
What makes Frassati particularly compelling is his relatability. He wasn't academically exceptional, faced family conflicts, and experienced relationship disappointments – yet chose holiness daily through faithful Mass attendance, acts of charity, and joyful friendship. His canonization miracle, involving the healing of a torn Achilles tendon, perfectly reflects this same accessibility – a reminder that God and his saints care about our everyday struggles, not just life-and-death situations.
Christine also shares personal stories of meeting Frassati's family, including his sister who lived to 105 years old, and reveals delightful behind-the-scenes details like the amusing story behind his beatification banner at St. Peter's. As we prepare to celebrate Saint Pier Giorgio Frassati, discover why he's precisely the saint we need today – showing us that holiness begins with Monday mornings and ordinary moments, offering hope that amid our own everyday struggles, we too can become saints.
Join us for Pier Giorgio Frassati's canonization celebration this summer! Whether you want to take a group or you're just an individual looking for a trip, Verso Ministries can make that dream a reality. Visit versoministries.com/Jubilee for all our Jubilee dates and for more information.
For more on Pier Giorgio, check out:
A Man of the Beatitudes by Luciana Frassati
Finding Frassati: And Following His Path to Holiness by Christine Wohar
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
On today's episode of NVEA, wewelcome Christine Wohar,
executive Director of FrassatiUSA.
As we prepare for Pier GiorgioFrassati's canonization this
(00:41):
summer, christine will bring usup to speed about his life, the
origin story of the nonprofit.
Frassati's canonization thissummer, christine will bring us
up to speed about his life, theorigin story of the nonprofit
Frassati USA and how PierGiorgio is a sign of hope for us
in this jubilee year.
So I think it's anunderstatement to say we should
be excited about thecanonization, right?
Like you have to be beyondexcited about this canonization
(01:01):
because we've waited so long forPier Giorgio, right?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I try to keep in mind that we could be waiting
another two or 300 years, right,because in a way it's 100 years
.
In a way, that's maybe not thatlong in canonization timeframes
although Carlo Acutis reallybeat the system, he jumped in
there pretty quickly but forPier Giorgio to have this happen
in my lifetime, yes, I thinkit's thrilling.
(01:24):
So anybody that knew him in1925 when he passed away and
that was really like a John PaulII moment when thousands of
people poured into the streetsand his canonization cause
really began at that moment ofhis funeral so maybe there might
have been people at that timethinking they will see this in
their lifetime and then theynever got to.
Have been people at that timethinking they will see this in
(01:46):
their lifetime and then theynever got to.
So, yes, I'm thrilled about itand very grateful, because for
me, I met Piero Giorgio 30 yearsago.
Of course, this is the 100thanniversary of his death, but it
could have been outside of mylifetime.
So what a blessing.
And, more importantly, his niece, wanda, who is the key person
after her mother.
So so her mother was PieroGiorgio's sister, luchana, and
(02:08):
Luchana was there for thebeatification, so all of the
family got to see that His ownparents died before the
beatification.
But for Wanda and her family tobe able to see the canonization
, that's really incredible,because maybe another 10 years
they're all close in their 90s,late 80s, you know, that's
really incredible because maybeanother 10 years they're all
close in their 90s, you know,late 80s, 90s and they might not
(02:29):
have been able to enjoy thismoment.
So for like a selfish moment,on behalf of the family, I think
it's exciting, and then of allof us who have a devotion to
Peter Giorgio, it's just off thecharts.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, before we jump into, kind of well, let's jump
into his life first, cause I wasgoing to say I want to hear
your story and how you met him,cause I think so often the
saints find us, you know, and sowe all have that story of where
, like, the saint found us.
But I guess, before we jumpinto how you met Pierre Giorgio
or how he found you, could yougive us a little synopsis of of
his life and like, why is hebeing canonized?
(03:03):
Because I think in some ways,like Carlo Acutis, it's easy
just to dismiss him as, likethis ordinary person and you
know, like what was so greatabout him and we, I think we can
learn a lot about holinessthrough his life.
So could you give us like alittle like snapshot of his life
?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, and you know, and I think with both Carlo
Acutis and Piero Giorgio, we maybe scrutinized, maybe a little
bit more like because theyweren't priests or nuns,
religious popes or somethinglike that in a way, and say,
well, these are just ordinaryguys.
But I think, as Pope John PaulII said, it's his ordinariness
that calls us to imitate, itcompels us to imitate his virtue
(03:39):
, but in both of those cases,their extraordinary devotion to
the Eucharist is what fueledtheir lives.
So they are different, thoughbased on their time frames, that
they lived, and the lifeexperiences of Peter Giorgio, I
think, were significantly moredifferent than Peter Giorgio I
mean than Carlo only because helived longer.
But so Peter Giorgio was bornin 1901, at the beginning of the
(04:01):
20th century, and he lived.
He died in 1925.
This is the centenary of hisdeath.
He died of the 20th century andhe lived.
He died in 1925.
This is the centenary of hisdeath.
He died on the 4th of July,which is his feast day.
So I love that part of it.
I see fireworks on the 4th ofJuly and I'm like God bless
America and woohoo, pure Georgia.
So, but he died after 24 shortyears, but those 24 years were
very significant in the courseof world history, especially
(04:23):
Italian history, because when hewas 13, world War I began,
which the Great World War withso many deaths, and then his
father was the founder of theItalian newspaper La Stampa.
People only got their news fromthe paper really back then and
there were two main papers.
So his father was a very key,significant figure in Italy and
(04:44):
then he became the youngestsenator for the kingdom it was a
kingdom at the time and then he, in Germany, spoke Germany
fluently and to be there forGermany at that time was a
(05:12):
significant political position,an appointment, and then the war
ended when Pier Giorgio was 17.
But then you had the Spanishflu, which claimed a lot of
lives, and then you had, when hewas 21 years old, you had the
March on, which claimed a lot oflives, and then you had, when
he was 21 years old, you had theMarch on Rome in 1922, and
Benito Mussolini comes to power,fascism takes over Italy and he
(05:32):
sees, like he says, his bloodboiled when he read the speech
of Mussolini.
So he sees his beloved countryfalling into the hands of a
fascist regime and he, becauseof his awareness and political
involvement of his father, pierGiorgio, I think, was far more
politically astute thancertainly I was at that age and
I think most young people are,because he was thrust into that
(05:54):
through the wars, the you know,the massive disease, the rise of
fascism and and his father'sposition.
So his father resigned whenMussolini came into power and
the family then was forced kindof on the outs because they
opposed fascism and so there wasa lot going on in his life and
(06:15):
that's just the cultural aspect,and in those days Catholics
were not supposed to beparticipating actively in
politics.
But it changed right at thattime and a Catholic priest
started a Catholic politicalparty, the People's Party, which
Pierre Georgiou joined, andthen was greatly disillusioned
when he saw that party, whichwas supposed to be promoting
(06:36):
Catholic social teaching, betrayitself and he said how men will
trample on their consciencesfor worldly honors.
And so here he is trying tomake a difference in the culture
.
So that was like the bigpolitical picture.
And then in his own family hewas born into a family which
really didn't have a deepspirituality.
His father is often referred toas agnostic or atheist, which I
(06:59):
really try to like redefinethat, because if you do a lot of
the reading especially theItalian sources.
His father was a fallen awayCatholic.
He wasn't anti-Catholic, hewasn't against the church.
If you read some of hisfather's writings reflecting on
the beauty and the nature andGod and all, I mean he had a
(07:19):
real deep essence.
He raised a saint.
You know, he gave him hereGiorgio.
He infused a lot of thesebeautiful qualities in him.
But in those times, as I said,you really weren't supposed to
be participating in politics.
So I sometimes wonder, and Idon't know, if his father
suppressed maybe some of hisCatholic leanings just because
(07:41):
otherwise he really couldn'thave been a senator or an
ambassador.
I don't know, that could becompletely wrong.
Nonetheless, his mother was aSunday Catholic.
She took the kids to church,she made sure they had the
sacraments, and sometimes you'llread that they never saw her
receive communion.
And I've discussed this withPeter Giorgio's niece and she's
kind of dismissed that, as ofcourse grandmother received
(08:03):
communion, but it wasn't likeshe didn't go, I mean.
So that creates a badimpression.
But they definitely weren'thaving family rosaries and
prayer times.
He would run home and he wouldpray outside of the dining room
because they wouldn't be prayingat meals and so.
But he all you know what I meanand so so he wasn't raised in a
Catholic environment but he hadthis great grace, I think, of
(08:30):
having a deep love for Jesus andthe Eucharist and the poor, and
all of that clearly from anearly age.
So it wasn't nurtured in thehome, but it wasn't.
He was misunderstood his wholelife, even at the time of his
death His parents saw thatoutpouring of thousands of
people at the funeral and hismother you know his father they
said we didn't know our son andthey didn't know their son, even
(08:52):
up until the end.
They thought he was a littlebit odd with the things that he
did in church, all the time inadoration, so.
But he was a regular guy,practical joker, life of the
party, had a lot of friends.
He was struggling in school.
People sometimes think he hadintelligence problems.
He spoke several languages andhe was prepared to study
(09:14):
engineering in German when hisfather became the ambassador.
So you don't do that when youdon't have a level of
intelligence.
But he was on like the six yearplan when he died, so he hadn't
finished his degree.
His sister had already finishedand she was younger, and he was
told you'll never amount tomuch if you continue down these
paths Because he was spending somuch time, you know, caring for
(09:36):
the poor.
So I'm giving you far more ofan answer than you want, but
that's kind of like the dramatic.
You know the setting of hislife, because he had a political
, cultural environment that wasvery significant at the time in
the history of Italy and eventhe world, and then he had the
dynamic of how the family lifewas, and yet he was an explosion
(09:59):
of joy, had this greatspiritual life, and now they're
being canonized.
So it's a bit, it's a lot.
I think there's a I always saythere's such a depth of Piero
Giorgio that we still have notexplored because we think of him
as climbing mountains andthings like that and there's so
(10:19):
much more to him, and my dreamis that one day we have all of
these tremendous Italian booksin English, so that people can
really get the full picture andthen really, truly appreciate
how he got to the point of beingcanonized today.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean even what you're talking
(10:57):
about.
I mean politically how much canwe learn from that?
This need for Catholics to getinvolved but also to remain
Catholic?
Right, there's so much we canstudy in that and I think people
just see him.
They don't see him within hishistorical significance and they
don't see that aspect of him.
That's so much for us right nowto like unpack.
(11:18):
But then also this Catholichome, that not being raised in a
Catholic home how typical isthat today?
That you know mom goes to mass,dad doesn't, you know?
And I think sometimes we, um,we can see our own lens of 2025,
you know, the fact that shedidn't receive communion is
actually pretty common in yearspast.
Right, that like people feltunworthy or they didn't receive
(11:38):
communion, it doesn't mean theywere a bad Catholic.
It meant they.
You know, it was just differentback then.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And he might not have been at mass or no, they might
not have noticed.
I think that the point was thatthat wasn't maybe a dramatic.
The problem is, some of thesethings come right from his
sister's books, so you can'tdiscount it because she wrote it
.
But sometimes the translationsaren't clear.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And it's also her point of view.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
People didn't always receive Like right now we just
go up to get communion whetherwe were doing like the worst
evil deed the night before wedon't question it, and so I
think a lot of times people werefar more scrupulous about
making sure they didn't go tocommunion unless they went to
confession, so it could be caseslike that where they didn't see
her go or they might not evenhave been at mass with her, or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Like we don't want to read too much into the past and
put people in boxes, but thisidea that he was born and he
became a saint within a verywhat now might be a typical
Catholic home Right.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I think that's a great observation.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
And that's really powerful for us to say okay, how
can you know, not that we wantto set the bar low for our
families, but that it's possible.
God works with it.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
All right, and Pierre Giorgio can come out of this
very typical Catholic home andin fact, it was his mother's
mother, his grandmother Linda,who she was more of that
religious spiritual figure.
You know your old grandmotherwho prayed all the time and she
taught him to pray for the soulsin purgatory and things like
that.
So there was, and they alwayshad, an abundance of nuns and
priests in the home.
(13:04):
In fact, a nun was the one whocared for his grandmother,
especially when she was agingand dying.
So it wasn't like they didn'thave the presence of Catholic
influences and things like thatin the home.
It was just that.
Just what you described andthat's how I like to think of it
actually is like the SundayCatholic or I don't know just
(13:26):
what you said.
The mother might take the kidsto church, the father might not
be home watching something ontelevision, sports or whatever.
Maybe they go maybe they don'tExactly, and yet they made sure
the kids received the sacraments.
They respected the church, butit wasn't a priority of prayer
and things like that.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, so I mean there's a lot we can unpack
about his life and devotion tohim, but I'd love to hear your
story of how he discovered youand you discovered him and how
Frassata USA came to be.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Well, I like what you said earlier about the saints
find us, because Bishop Eganfrom England wrote the foreword
for my book and he writes thatin there that he firmly believes
that we don't choose the saints, the saints choose us, and that
is the truest thing that I'veever seen as far as this goes.
So I came to Nashville to go tolaw school at Vanderbilt my
(14:18):
plan and there I met a parishpriest.
Within, I would say, within 12hours of landing in Nashville, I
was introduced to the parishpriest.
He, I would say, within 12hours of landing in Nashville, I
was introduced to the parishpriest.
He was the associate pastor atthe time and he wanted to start
a young adult group.
And he asked me and I alwayslook back on that, we kind of
joke about this a little bit butthis particular priest had gone
(14:40):
to law school and then decidedto convert to Catholicism while
in law school and then leftAfter he graduated law school
and then left after he graduatedlaw school, became a Catholic
priest.
And so my point is just that hehad gone through law school at a
top tier law school.
He knew what it was.
I was kind of so naive, I wasthinking I was just going to be
at the pool all day.
This is going to be a breezeand you know that's not how
(15:01):
first year law school is, whichI found out.
So I the reason I mentionedthat is just that for him to ask
me new to Nashville, I knownobody and I'm a first year law
student and he knows, although Idon't, the intensity of that
why, ask me to help start agroup.
But sure Father, he saw that Iwent to daily mass.
There was a six 30 mass andthat was my routine six 30 mass,
(15:22):
the divine office, with a groupof faithful Catholics there,
and then I'd head off to lawschool.
One day after 630 mass he saidI've got it, and he had this old
paper with the prayer of PierGiorgio on it and he said we'll
call it the Frassati society andthat's how the name came about.
He had other names that werebeing tossed around and this was
the one he decided on.
I'm just going along withwhatever he said.
(15:44):
I am in fact still ByzantineCatholic, so for me this is a.
You know, this is not aByzantine Catholic, blessed or
saint or whatever.
But, like we always say, thechurch breathes with two lungs.
I was raised in Latin right,you know, grade school and high
school, and so I feel like avery much of a spiritual mutt.
But this was there, isn't,there was, hasn't been a
(16:08):
Byzzantine church here.
So I'm always at the, you know,the roman catholic church.
I was fine with whatever hesaid.
I never heard of the guy andfrom that point on he's kind of
had his claws in me, pierGiorgio.
I mean, I never would have saidI would have seen this coming
in a million years.
But it started that way withstarting a young adult group
there, starting another youngadult group later, and then, 10
(16:29):
years after that first encounterwith Pier Giorgio, I went to
Rome.
I met his niece and I justdecided that I was called to do
something more to help make himbetter known in America.
And so then I gave up my careerpath and all of that and went
off to Italy, not knowing whatwould happen.
And I arrived.
I always like to say I arrivedin Italy two days before Pier
(16:52):
Giorgio's sister celebrated her104th birthday.
So my within two days of thisgreat leap of faith, I was in
the first family homecelebrating the 104th birthday
of Piero Giorgio's sister, andthat was very significant for me
, because Piero Giorgio missedall of her birthdays when he
(17:12):
died at 24, you know so, 80years later, I'm at a birthday
party that he couldn't be at, Imean.
You know so, 80 years later,I'm at a birthday party that he
couldn't be at.
I mean, and it just kind ofwent from there.
Within a very short period oftime, it became obvious that the
best way to help was to startsomething in the United States.
That's how Forsythia, usa, thatI've been able to meet all of
(17:32):
Luchana had six children.
One just recently died in thelast few years, but the other
five are still alive.
I've met and spent time withall of them and, of course, with
her.
She died at the age of 105.
I was there the last month ofher life, in the home and at her
(17:55):
funeral.
So, just yeah, things that youcan't really put a value on, how
significant that is to be ableto have had those experiences
and all along not knowing whatin the heck I was doing here,
where this was going, why peoplewill always ask me questions
about why you're doing this orhow you're doing this or
whatever, and those are thethings you have to leave up to
(18:16):
the Lord.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So he keeps.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
If the path is there, I just keep going on the path.
So, and here we are.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It's like this pilgrimage you don't know where
you're going, but you're goingwith the Lord and that's all
that matters.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It's good that we don't know because if we knew I
honestly, if you would have laidthis all out for me how this
was going to go, I'd be like Ithink I'll stick with being a
partner at the law firm anddonate to somebody who might be
crazy enough to do this.
But anyway, no, it's been ablessing.
Yeah, it's priceless.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's a beautiful lesson.
How have you seen, you know,how have you seen Pierre
Georgiou's effect in his family,who maybe didn't even know him,
but they're hearing the storiesthat we're hearing, you know?
Do you see that effect of thisholiness, of this man that only
lived to 24?
How does that impact his family?
I can't comprehend having arelative.
(19:07):
That's a canonized saint right.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, I don't know how it's impacted them.
I the story of Pierre-Georges.
So Pierre-Georges' sistermarried the January of the year
that he died, so obviously noneof his nieces and nephews ever
knew who he was After he died.
It was very, of course, it wouldbe for your parents to suffer
(19:30):
the loss of their child, but itwas told to me that his father
couldn't bear to see pictures ofhim in his daughter's home and
that when he would go there tovisit she would, you know, put
pictures in the drawer, orsomething like that.
And his father eventually cameback to the fullness of the
(19:52):
faith and he has written somebeautiful things, the pain of
losing his son and so on.
And his mother began, becauseof that outpouring of the people
there, to work on thecanonization cause, but for his
living relatives I think theydidn't have any experience of
(20:13):
that.
And then the cause, for reasons, was put on hold and it didn't
get reopened again until thelate 70s, I think, is when it
was reopened.
So so they all grew up reallywith him being a figure, but not
necessarily celebrated in thechurch because things were put
(20:35):
on hold for so long.
Okay, so they had luchana'sbooks, which she actually didn't
write, those books till aboutmaybe 30 years or so after he
passed away.
Um, there were commemorations ofhis death and things like that.
But I don't think, as opposed tocarlo cutas's mother and her
family, who are actually likeliving in the moment because
(20:55):
it's so fresh and she lived withher, you know they all.
So I think, for the family, theimpact of the family I don't
really know how that impactsthem to process, like the fact
that he was not being canonized,not being beatified.
Then he was beatified and thenthere was another law, and now
you have somebody who's a famoussaint because for them their
father was a very famous, I mean, the, the grandfather, the
(21:17):
father of Luciana and PieroGiorgio was a very significant,
famous figure and that wouldhave been something.
And then you know, lucianaherself was a very accomplished,
significant figure.
So I just think that they havea richness in the family of
everyone, a richness in thefamily of everyone and I don't
know how the the life of PieroGiorgio.
(21:39):
You know what dimension that isfor them in.
In all of that.
It's a lot.
I think it's a lot for them tohave that kind of a legacy in
their family their familyhistory.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah yeah, we're so far removed from Italian history
.
I mean, the average Americandoesn't even realize, like you
know, even, that there used tobe kingdoms in Italy, right?
Like the idea of like theunification of Italy is like
some foreign idea.
We don't know history outsideour own um in America, and so,
like we don't even know his dad,we don't think about that.
And so the thing that this is avery you know, there's, there's
multi-level of famousness intheir family.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, one of the things I think is interesting.
If you go to Polone to visitthe home of Pier Giorgio, you
drive up.
The main road is called ViaPier Giorgio Frassati.
So when you go into Poloneyou're driving on Pier Giorgio
Frassati Street, but you crossover Senator Alfredo Frassati
Street where you find a monumentof Mr Frassati.
So there's a streetintersection right Frassati and
(22:38):
Frassati.
So you had a worldly figure ofsuccess and a spiritual figure
of success on this crossroadsthere, literally.
So, yeah, it's a lot to thinkabout in a family like that.
I know, when Luciana passedaway, one of her sons at the
funeral said to me everyonethinks of my mother in terms of
Pier Giorgio, his uncle, youknow, her brother, he said.
(22:59):
But my mother did so much more.
She saved over a hundred PolishJews from extermination by
directly going to Mussolini andgetting their freedom with her
diplomatic passport.
So for him he was always tryingto be mindful of the fact that
this family, you know, there'sway more than Pierre Giorgio and
Pierre Giorgio would be enoughfor any family, but you have the
mother, the grandpa, you know.
(23:20):
So there's a lot that thisfamily has contributed in the,
you know, in the life of in thattimeframe and extending even
far beyond so far more than wecan comprehend, I think.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Um, you talked a little bit about the lull and
then you know we were waitingfor the canonization.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout the miracle that led to
his canonization?
Were you surprised that?
I mean, I think after a while,when you're waiting, you're like
oh, it's actually happening.
Um, you know just the idea thathe's getting canonized in this
Jubilee year.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout the miracle that was
approved?
So the miracle was.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I was aware of the miracle in 2019.
It happened in 2017.
But you are absolutely right.
You're like is this finallyhappening?
Because I'll up on them and thepowers that be decide which
things get investigated.
So when this was the one thatwas chosen to be investigated
(24:27):
and approved, I think everybodyis scratching their heads a
little bit because it's not oneof these.
Wow, you know, incredibledramatic life and death type of
miracles.
Incredible dramatic life anddeath type of miracles.
It was the.
He was a seminarian at the timein the diocese of Los Angeles
playing basketball.
I just recently ran intosomebody who knows things about
Los Angeles and she told me thatin that diocese it's a big
(24:50):
thing to have the seminariansplaying the priest in a game of
basketball out there.
This it's like some big thing, Iguess.
Anyway, this seminarian injuredhis he tore his Achilles tendon
playing basketball, and so thatwas the miracle was the
miraculous healing of hisAchilles tendon.
And somebody wrote a recently agreat reflection on that,
saying how this is a nicemiracle actually for Piero de
(25:12):
Giorgio, because it showssomething that didn't have to
have a miracle, because he couldhave had surgery and repaired
his torn Achilles tendon, so itwasn't like a stage four cancer
or something dramatic like that,or the brain injury of Kevin
Becker, who everyone thinksoften is the actual canonization
(25:33):
miracle, because that's beenfar more publicized, but it's a
simple miracle and a sweet storyof, I think, the intercession
for the little things, which Ithink is a significant thing.
It was a big thing for FatherGutierrez.
He's now an ordained priest inthe Diocese of Los Angeles and
(25:56):
you can find his beautifultestimony about that healing
online.
But yeah, it was a simplehealing of an Achilles tendon.
And so sometimes people you knowask about that.
I don't know, I don't know.
Another miracle the firstmiracle for Peter Giorgio
happened in the 1930s and it wasa dramatic case, but I think
(26:17):
there is a real beauty to this asports injury and something
that just affected thisparticular person.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Um, it was a frustrating, disappointing thing
for him and obviously there'ssome special reason that pietro
giorgio wanted to do this forfather gutierrez, yeah, yeah,
(26:51):
there's like a tenderness, atenderness with a tendon,
exactly life and his dailychoices that led him to heaven,
right, that he brought peoplewith him to mass and he, you
know, spoke out when injusticewas happening and he served the
poor when he, you know, and itwasn't just, oh, he sat and
prayed, but he, like, he wasactive, that man of the
Beatitudes, but that it was inhis ordinary life, and I think
(27:12):
that this kind of ordinarymiracle kind of speaks to the
ordinariness.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I think so and it's a good lesson for us too, to
remember that it's not just thebig things out there.
Like some people, I mean, ourlives ebb and flow, and
sometimes you have moresuffering than other times.
You know my mother used to sayyou have the joyful and the
sorrowful and the glorious, youknow, like the mysteries of the
rosary in your life, and I thinkthat's true.
But God, as scripture tells us,worries about every hair on our
(27:39):
head, and so it doesn't have tobe like I'm only going to pray
if I have like this worst,terrible thing that's happening
to me.
I think it's a good messagethat God cares about everything,
as do the saints, and PeterGiorgio, and he, in his
friendship with us, I think,would want us to be able to
participate in the things thatwe do.
There's a letter in one of inthe Pierre Georges book of
(28:01):
letters where he talks about hehas to skip an adventure to the
mountains for a ski tournamentbecause he has a problem with,
well, a climb that he was goingto go on, because he's injured
his knee, and he describes theinjury to his knee and so so
like that was a frustratingthing for me because he knew he
for him, because he knew hewasn't going to be able to do
(28:23):
that.
So, like, those things affectedhim little things and then he
had the dramatic big things inhis life.
But I think it's a goodreminder for us that God cares
about every little thing and itdoesn't have to be only the big
things that we run to God,because a lot of people wait
until they're on their lastbreath of gasp of life before
they turn to God.
And God should be with us allof the time, in everything and
(28:45):
the little things now, and notjust wait till things get so bad
and then you decide, ok, Ireally need God.
Now I'm going to pray.
I mean he's there for the littlethings, the daily things as
well as not going to bug him.
And we don't all you know, noteverybody gets the big things
anyway, but um yeah, so I've umtaken a lot of consolation from
(29:06):
that miracle actually that thelittle things that matter to me.
God hears, he's listening, he'syou know.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, I love that.
What, how do you think so he'sgetting canonized in this
Jubilee year, this year of hope?
And how is Pierre Giorgio asign for hope for us today?
How is he a pilgrim of hope?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It's really perfect timing.
I think the one number onething people say about Pierre
Giorgio he's so relatable.
Okay, he's so relatable.
Everybody can find something inPierre Giorgio.
But the relatability of him is,I think, what makes him such an
important figure for peoplefrom the standpoint of hope.
Because, okay, pierre de Georgiadidn't get the best grades.
We know he was out doing allthese works of poor.
(29:51):
So if you don't have a good,you know straight A report card,
you can still be a saint.
Like he gives you hopeacademically.
And he had a relationship thatdidn't go the way he wanted and
so and his parents had a veryunhappy marriage, were on the
verge of separation.
You maybe come from a bad homelife or an unhappy home life or
unhappy relationship with yourown spouse, and and you can be a
(30:16):
saint.
Pier Giorgio did all, he did alot of things that in the
ordinariness of his life that Ithink people can look at that
and say, if he could do it,there's hope for me.
And so I think that in someways, the ordinariness of Pier
Giorgio and the jubilee of hope,hand in hand, show us that
there's hope for everyone, nomatter what your circumstance.
(30:37):
People can confine him to well.
He came from a wealthy home andhe had these opportunities, but
he really suffered In many ways.
He suffered withmisunderstanding and loneliness
and the lack of spirituality inthe home, a lack of
understanding in the home of hisown, the way he lived his life,
the struggles, the comparisons,the pressures, the things he
had to sacrifice, and in the endhe was able to overcome all of
(31:00):
that and choose the things thatmatter more, like be faithful to
the fundamentals of the faith,practicing his spiritual life,
communion, confession, servingthe poor and all of those things
, being faithful to that,finishing the race, finishing
the race until the day he died.
And so I look at it as if, ifPier Giorgio could do those
(31:22):
things as just a regular guywith all of the pressures and
things that we have, then thereis hope for me, because I'm
never going to be the one whosees the blessed mother or who
founds the hospital in here orbilocates or becomes the Pope or
something, and so we alwayscompartmentalize sanctity for
those people, and I think PietroGiorgio gives us the hope of
(31:42):
holiness for us, as does, Ithink, carlo Acutis, you know,
also shows us, in the same waythat in your everyday
circumstances and the challengesthat you face.
Yes, you can be holy, and sothe hope of holiness now, not
just later, is, I think, what hereally brings us by the
synergistic timing of theJubilee year.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Yeah, I agree.
Sometimes we dismiss theordinary things as like oh well,
that's not holiness, that's toonormal.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
But I fail at those.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I fail at those all the time.
The ordinary things.
That's where God wants me to befaithful.
Do I need to be more outspokenabout political injustice?
Do I need to help the pooroutside my home?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
right, um, and that's where he's calling me to be we
might all have the capacity tobe a hero in some dramatic
situation, but the heroic virtueof daily life for I think
especially lay people in theworld you know to get up and
every day make those choices,that you're yes to God, on a
(32:46):
daily basis, when you're not ina religious community, when you
don't have some kind ofobligation to do those things, I
think it's you know, I justgetting out of bed sometimes, I
think is canonization material.
So I think the ordinariness oflife, as John Paul II said, that
(33:07):
that's what compels us to lookat him and imitate him, because
as you say it's not that easyevery day.
It's not that easy every day togo through the world being in
the world and not of the world.
And that's really what PierreGeorges shows us.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, I like to say that saints are made on Monday
mornings, right, like justgetting out of bed sometimes is
heroic.
Do you, as we finish up, do youhave a favorite Pierre Giorgio
story, a favorite story or apersonal anecdote, maybe
something that you don't thinkpeople know about him, or just
something that you'd like toshare about him?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I have so many stories about Pierre Giorgio
that I love, so rather, I um, Ilike to, when people ask me that
, I like to give you, um, triviathat maybe people don't know.
So, and it's a cute story in away, but one of the unknown
things that I've been toldpersonally.
So I believe it's true, it cameright from the horse's mouth
(34:02):
that when Pier Giorgio was beingbeatified, the Vatican had this
is kind of Pier Giorgio in anutshell in a way, but when he
was being beatified, they hadprepared a holy looking image
for his banner to be displayedon the facade of St Peter's, and
his sister was his banner to bedisplayed on the facade of St
(34:24):
Peter's and his sister was notwanting that.
And so if you ever can look ata beatification image of St
Peter's, peter Georgia wasbeatified alone, which was
saying something, a statement, Ithink, by Pope John Paul.
But you see this picture of aguy in mountain climbing clothes
hanging there on the front ofSt Peter's.
If you could look closely youwould see that the head and body
don't match.
So this was 1990.
(34:45):
It was a little bit beforeeverybody had personal computers
and all of the ability toPhotoshop things and so on.
So what they did at the time,the picture of Pier Giorgio on
the mountains was a picture withhim with a pipe in his mouth,
and so they put this mountainclimbing picture.
But they didn't want thepicture with the pipe.
So they put the head of him at16 on the body of him in like 24
(35:09):
years old.
If you ever see that it's alittle bit of trivia and it just
kind of.
It's an interesting thing,because if you smoke a pipe you
can still get to heaven,obviously.
But the funny part too of thatstory is so then after someone's
beatified, they go for a, theyhave a mass to celebrate that in
(35:29):
their diocese, and so they goto the diocese of Turin to have
this big mass and they bring outthe banner of the holy one that
Luchana Frassati didn't want,of the holy one that Luchana
Frassati didn't want.
And so Wanda told me that asthey're processing out, she says
Luchana says to her daughter goand get that banner.
She didn't want them to usethat banner but it was too late.
(35:50):
Wanda said it was too late,what could I do?
And then, after the mass wasover, they did go and get it and
removed it so it wouldn't beused again.
But Wanda says that during thekiss of peace the Cardinal came
up to Luciana and said peace, bewith you.
And she said to him I will haveno peace until you get rid of
(36:14):
that horrid banner.
So I just think it's a greatstory of how the family wanted
us to have him as a normal saintthat you know.
This guy makes it to thebeatification and he has to have
an image with a head and bodythat don't match, but he
wouldn't have cared.
I mean, he was a practical jokerand I think that he would find
that amusing and then for hissister to be so determined that
(36:35):
he remained normal for us.
So I like the fact that shetook great care for that.
And if you're able to go to thefamily home, it's another
beautiful thing about how theyhave preserved things in a very
accessible way, which I think isincredibly generous that you
can walk into that home.
It's not a museum, they don'tsell tickets.
(36:55):
It's their home and you canstill go in there and pray at
the bed of Pierre Giorgio.
So I like that they werewanting to go to such great
lengths to make him normal andaccessible for us, as he would
want to be always for hisfriends.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, yeah, it makes you wonder.
You know, we have the kind ofthis like hagiographical account
of a lot of the ancient saintsand I wish that we could get
underneath that sometimes andsay like, yeah, but tell me a
story of when they saints.
And I wish that we could getunderneath that sometimes and
say like, yeah, but tell me astory of when they played a
practical joke, or tell me astory of when they messed up.
Right, I, I need some likenormal stories, and so that's
what I'm really grateful for.
Pierre Georgiou I love thepicture of him with the paper
(37:32):
hat on.
Um, he has that like newspaperhat and he's holding a bottle.
And I'm like you, like that'sholiness too, you know, and so
it's, it's refreshing.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Some people don't agree with you, but, yes, some
people get annoyed at seeingthose kinds of everyday pictures
.
But yes, I agree, I agree withyou.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's he.
He's the saint, for for me, hegives me hope.
Right, it's real life.
And if we're not?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
human and living real life, then there's no hope for
any of us.
I mean, we can't.
Our life is not 24 seven insideof the church walls.
It's like you said begins on aMonday morning and then it goes
throughout the day and everyencounter, and that's really the
lesson of pure Georgia.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, perfect.
Well, thank you, christine.
I think that's a great way toend.
Thank you for telling us astory and and sharing your own
story, and we'll be celebratingwith you this summer.
Just really thrilled, we get tosay, saint Pier Giorgio
Frassati, we're going to have tochange all the holy cards that
Verso Ministries passes out,because they all say blessed,
and now we get to change them.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
That's a good problem to have right.
It is.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
It is.
Thanks so much and thanks,listeners.
Share this episode with someonewho may need to know the real
Per Giorgio Frassati.
Maybe they just know him as amountain climber and he was that
, but we would love to spreadthe word that he's somebody to
really emulate, even when therearen't physical mountains in our
lives.
God bless, listeners.
Please share the episode andtune in as we continue our
(38:56):
Jubilee series here on NVEA.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
individual looking for a trip,verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashJubilee for all our Jubilee
(39:17):
dates and for more information.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
On today's episode of NVEA, wewelcome Christine Wohar,
executive Director of FrassatiUSA.
As we prepare for Pier GiorgioFrassati's canonization this
(00:41):
summer, christine will bring usup to speed about his life, the
origin story of the nonprofit.
Frassati's canonization thissummer, christine will bring us
up to speed about his life, theorigin story of the nonprofit
Frassati USA and how PierGiorgio is a sign of hope for us
in this jubilee year.
So I think it's anunderstatement to say we should
be excited about thecanonization, right?
Like you have to be beyondexcited about this canonization
(01:01):
because we've waited so long forPier Giorgio, right?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I try to keep in mind that we could be waiting
another two or 300 years, right,because in a way it's 100 years
.
In a way, that's maybe not thatlong in canonization timeframes
although Carlo Acutis reallybeat the system, he jumped in
there pretty quickly but forPier Giorgio to have this happen
in my lifetime, yes, I thinkit's thrilling.
(01:24):
So anybody that knew him in1925 when he passed away and
that was really like a John PaulII moment when thousands of
people poured into the streetsand his canonization cause
really began at that moment ofhis funeral so maybe there might
have been people at that timethinking they will see this in
their lifetime and then theynever got to.
Have been people at that timethinking they will see this in
(01:46):
their lifetime and then theynever got to.
So, yes, I'm thrilled about itand very grateful, because for
me, I met Piero Giorgio 30 yearsago.
Of course, this is the 100thanniversary of his death, but it
could have been outside of mylifetime.
So what a blessing.
And, more importantly, his niece, wanda, who is the key person
after her mother.
So so her mother was PieroGiorgio's sister, luchana, and
(02:08):
Luchana was there for thebeatification, so all of the
family got to see that His ownparents died before the
beatification.
But for Wanda and her family tobe able to see the canonization
, that's really incredible,because maybe another 10 years
they're all close in their 90s,late 80s, you know, that's
really incredible because maybeanother 10 years they're all
close in their 90s, you know,late 80s, 90s and they might not
(02:29):
have been able to enjoy thismoment.
So for like a selfish moment,on behalf of the family, I think
it's exciting, and then of allof us who have a devotion to
Peter Giorgio, it's just off thecharts.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, before we jump into, kind of well, let's jump
into his life first, cause I wasgoing to say I want to hear
your story and how you met him,cause I think so often the
saints find us, you know, and sowe all have that story of where
, like, the saint found us.
But I guess, before we jumpinto how you met Pierre Giorgio
or how he found you, could yougive us a little synopsis of of
his life and like, why is hebeing canonized?
(03:03):
Because I think in some ways,like Carlo Acutis, it's easy
just to dismiss him as, likethis ordinary person and you
know, like what was so greatabout him and we, I think we can
learn a lot about holinessthrough his life.
So could you give us like alittle like snapshot of his life
?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, and you know, and I think with both Carlo
Acutis and Piero Giorgio, we maybe scrutinized, maybe a little
bit more like because theyweren't priests or nuns,
religious popes or somethinglike that in a way, and say,
well, these are just ordinaryguys.
But I think, as Pope John PaulII said, it's his ordinariness
that calls us to imitate, itcompels us to imitate his virtue
(03:39):
, but in both of those cases,their extraordinary devotion to
the Eucharist is what fueledtheir lives.
So they are different, thoughbased on their time frames, that
they lived, and the lifeexperiences of Peter Giorgio, I
think, were significantly moredifferent than Peter Giorgio I
mean than Carlo only because helived longer.
But so Peter Giorgio was bornin 1901, at the beginning of the
(04:01):
20th century, and he lived.
He died in 1925.
This is the centenary of hisdeath.
He died of the 20th century andhe lived.
He died in 1925.
This is the centenary of hisdeath.
He died on the 4th of July,which is his feast day.
So I love that part of it.
I see fireworks on the 4th ofJuly and I'm like God bless
America and woohoo, pure Georgia.
So, but he died after 24 shortyears, but those 24 years were
very significant in the courseof world history, especially
(04:23):
Italian history, because when hewas 13, world War I began,
which the Great World War withso many deaths, and then his
father was the founder of theItalian newspaper La Stampa.
People only got their news fromthe paper really back then and
there were two main papers.
So his father was a very key,significant figure in Italy and
(04:44):
then he became the youngestsenator for the kingdom it was a
kingdom at the time and then he, in Germany, spoke Germany
fluently and to be there forGermany at that time was a
(05:12):
significant political position,an appointment, and then the war
ended when Pier Giorgio was 17.
But then you had the Spanishflu, which claimed a lot of
lives, and then you had, when hewas 21 years old, you had the
March on, which claimed a lot oflives, and then you had, when
he was 21 years old, you had theMarch on Rome in 1922, and
Benito Mussolini comes to power,fascism takes over Italy and he
(05:32):
sees, like he says, his bloodboiled when he read the speech
of Mussolini.
So he sees his beloved countryfalling into the hands of a
fascist regime and he, becauseof his awareness and political
involvement of his father, pierGiorgio, I think, was far more
politically astute thancertainly I was at that age and
I think most young people are,because he was thrust into that
(05:54):
through the wars, the you know,the massive disease, the rise of
fascism and and his father'sposition.
So his father resigned whenMussolini came into power and
the family then was forced kindof on the outs because they
opposed fascism and so there wasa lot going on in his life and
(06:15):
that's just the cultural aspect,and in those days Catholics
were not supposed to beparticipating actively in
politics.
But it changed right at thattime and a Catholic priest
started a Catholic politicalparty, the People's Party, which
Pierre Georgiou joined, andthen was greatly disillusioned
when he saw that party, whichwas supposed to be promoting
(06:36):
Catholic social teaching, betrayitself and he said how men will
trample on their consciencesfor worldly honors.
And so here he is trying tomake a difference in the culture
.
So that was like the bigpolitical picture.
And then in his own family hewas born into a family which
really didn't have a deepspirituality.
His father is often referred toas agnostic or atheist, which I
(06:59):
really try to like redefinethat, because if you do a lot of
the reading especially theItalian sources.
His father was a fallen awayCatholic.
He wasn't anti-Catholic, hewasn't against the church.
If you read some of hisfather's writings reflecting on
the beauty and the nature andGod and all, I mean he had a
(07:19):
real deep essence.
He raised a saint.
You know, he gave him hereGiorgio.
He infused a lot of thesebeautiful qualities in him.
But in those times, as I said,you really weren't supposed to
be participating in politics.
So I sometimes wonder, and Idon't know, if his father
suppressed maybe some of hisCatholic leanings just because
(07:41):
otherwise he really couldn'thave been a senator or an
ambassador.
I don't know, that could becompletely wrong.
Nonetheless, his mother was aSunday Catholic.
She took the kids to church,she made sure they had the
sacraments, and sometimes you'llread that they never saw her
receive communion.
And I've discussed this withPeter Giorgio's niece and she's
kind of dismissed that, as ofcourse grandmother received
(08:03):
communion, but it wasn't likeshe didn't go, I mean.
So that creates a badimpression.
But they definitely weren'thaving family rosaries and
prayer times.
He would run home and he wouldpray outside of the dining room
because they wouldn't be prayingat meals and so.
But he all you know what I meanand so so he wasn't raised in a
Catholic environment but he hadthis great grace, I think, of
(08:30):
having a deep love for Jesus andthe Eucharist and the poor, and
all of that clearly from anearly age.
So it wasn't nurtured in thehome, but it wasn't.
He was misunderstood his wholelife, even at the time of his
death His parents saw thatoutpouring of thousands of
people at the funeral and hismother you know his father they
said we didn't know our son andthey didn't know their son, even
(08:52):
up until the end.
They thought he was a littlebit odd with the things that he
did in church, all the time inadoration, so.
But he was a regular guy,practical joker, life of the
party, had a lot of friends.
He was struggling in school.
People sometimes think he hadintelligence problems.
He spoke several languages andhe was prepared to study
(09:14):
engineering in German when hisfather became the ambassador.
So you don't do that when youdon't have a level of
intelligence.
But he was on like the six yearplan when he died, so he hadn't
finished his degree.
His sister had already finishedand she was younger, and he was
told you'll never amount tomuch if you continue down these
paths Because he was spending somuch time, you know, caring for
(09:36):
the poor.
So I'm giving you far more ofan answer than you want, but
that's kind of like the dramatic.
You know the setting of hislife, because he had a political
, cultural environment that wasvery significant at the time in
the history of Italy and eventhe world, and then he had the
dynamic of how the family lifewas, and yet he was an explosion
(09:59):
of joy, had this greatspiritual life, and now they're
being canonized.
So it's a bit, it's a lot.
I think there's a I always saythere's such a depth of Piero
Giorgio that we still have notexplored because we think of him
as climbing mountains andthings like that and there's so
(10:19):
much more to him, and my dreamis that one day we have all of
these tremendous Italian booksin English, so that people can
really get the full picture andthen really, truly appreciate
how he got to the point of beingcanonized today.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean even what you're talking
(10:57):
about.
I mean politically how much canwe learn from that?
This need for Catholics to getinvolved but also to remain
Catholic?
Right, there's so much we canstudy in that and I think people
just see him.
They don't see him within hishistorical significance and they
don't see that aspect of him.
That's so much for us right nowto like unpack.
(11:18):
But then also this Catholichome, that not being raised in a
Catholic home how typical isthat today?
That you know mom goes to mass,dad doesn't, you know?
And I think sometimes we, um,we can see our own lens of 2025,
you know, the fact that shedidn't receive communion is
actually pretty common in yearspast.
Right, that like people feltunworthy or they didn't receive
(11:38):
communion, it doesn't mean theywere a bad Catholic.
It meant they.
You know, it was just differentback then.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And he might not have been at mass or no, they might
not have noticed.
I think that the point was thatthat wasn't maybe a dramatic.
The problem is, some of thesethings come right from his
sister's books, so you can'tdiscount it because she wrote it
.
But sometimes the translationsaren't clear.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And it's also her point of view.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
People didn't always receive Like right now we just
go up to get communion whetherwe were doing like the worst
evil deed the night before wedon't question it, and so I
think a lot of times people werefar more scrupulous about
making sure they didn't go tocommunion unless they went to
confession, so it could be caseslike that where they didn't see
her go or they might not evenhave been at mass with her, or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Like we don't want to read too much into the past and
put people in boxes, but thisidea that he was born and he
became a saint within a verywhat now might be a typical
Catholic home Right.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I think that's a great observation.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
And that's really powerful for us to say okay, how
can you know, not that we wantto set the bar low for our
families, but that it's possible.
God works with it.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
All right, and Pierre Giorgio can come out of this
very typical Catholic home andin fact, it was his mother's
mother, his grandmother Linda,who she was more of that
religious spiritual figure.
You know your old grandmotherwho prayed all the time and she
taught him to pray for the soulsin purgatory and things like
that.
So there was, and they alwayshad, an abundance of nuns and
priests in the home.
(13:04):
In fact, a nun was the one whocared for his grandmother,
especially when she was agingand dying.
So it wasn't like they didn'thave the presence of Catholic
influences and things like thatin the home.
It was just that.
Just what you described andthat's how I like to think of it
actually is like the SundayCatholic or I don't know just
(13:26):
what you said.
The mother might take the kidsto church, the father might not
be home watching something ontelevision, sports or whatever.
Maybe they go maybe they don'tExactly, and yet they made sure
the kids received the sacraments.
They respected the church, butit wasn't a priority of prayer
and things like that.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, so I mean there's a lot we can unpack
about his life and devotion tohim, but I'd love to hear your
story of how he discovered youand you discovered him and how
Frassata USA came to be.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Well, I like what you said earlier about the saints
find us, because Bishop Eganfrom England wrote the foreword
for my book and he writes thatin there that he firmly believes
that we don't choose the saints, the saints choose us, and that
is the truest thing that I'veever seen as far as this goes.
So I came to Nashville to go tolaw school at Vanderbilt my
(14:18):
plan and there I met a parishpriest.
Within, I would say, within 12hours of landing in Nashville, I
was introduced to the parishpriest.
He, I would say, within 12hours of landing in Nashville, I
was introduced to the parishpriest.
He was the associate pastor atthe time and he wanted to start
a young adult group.
And he asked me and I alwayslook back on that, we kind of
joke about this a little bit butthis particular priest had gone
(14:40):
to law school and then decidedto convert to Catholicism while
in law school and then leftAfter he graduated law school
and then left after he graduatedlaw school, became a Catholic
priest.
And so my point is just that hehad gone through law school at a
top tier law school.
He knew what it was.
I was kind of so naive, I wasthinking I was just going to be
at the pool all day.
This is going to be a breezeand you know that's not how
(15:01):
first year law school is, whichI found out.
So I the reason I mentionedthat is just that for him to ask
me new to Nashville, I knownobody and I'm a first year law
student and he knows, although Idon't, the intensity of that
why, ask me to help start agroup.
But sure Father, he saw that Iwent to daily mass.
There was a six 30 mass andthat was my routine six 30 mass,
(15:22):
the divine office, with a groupof faithful Catholics there,
and then I'd head off to lawschool.
One day after 630 mass he saidI've got it, and he had this old
paper with the prayer of PierGiorgio on it and he said we'll
call it the Frassati society andthat's how the name came about.
He had other names that werebeing tossed around and this was
the one he decided on.
I'm just going along withwhatever he said.
(15:44):
I am in fact still ByzantineCatholic, so for me this is a.
You know, this is not aByzantine Catholic, blessed or
saint or whatever.
But, like we always say, thechurch breathes with two lungs.
I was raised in Latin right,you know, grade school and high
school, and so I feel like avery much of a spiritual mutt.
But this was there, isn't,there was, hasn't been a
(16:08):
Byzzantine church here.
So I'm always at the, you know,the roman catholic church.
I was fine with whatever hesaid.
I never heard of the guy andfrom that point on he's kind of
had his claws in me, pierGiorgio.
I mean, I never would have saidI would have seen this coming
in a million years.
But it started that way withstarting a young adult group
there, starting another youngadult group later, and then, 10
(16:29):
years after that first encounterwith Pier Giorgio, I went to
Rome.
I met his niece and I justdecided that I was called to do
something more to help make himbetter known in America.
And so then I gave up my careerpath and all of that and went
off to Italy, not knowing whatwould happen.
And I arrived.
I always like to say I arrivedin Italy two days before Pier
(16:52):
Giorgio's sister celebrated her104th birthday.
So my within two days of thisgreat leap of faith, I was in
the first family homecelebrating the 104th birthday
of Piero Giorgio's sister, andthat was very significant for me
, because Piero Giorgio missedall of her birthdays when he
(17:12):
died at 24, you know so, 80years later, I'm at a birthday
party that he couldn't be at, Imean.
You know so, 80 years later,I'm at a birthday party that he
couldn't be at.
I mean, and it just kind ofwent from there.
Within a very short period oftime, it became obvious that the
best way to help was to startsomething in the United States.
That's how Forsythia, usa, thatI've been able to meet all of
(17:32):
Luchana had six children.
One just recently died in thelast few years, but the other
five are still alive.
I've met and spent time withall of them and, of course, with
her.
She died at the age of 105.
I was there the last month ofher life, in the home and at her
(17:55):
funeral.
So, just yeah, things that youcan't really put a value on, how
significant that is to be ableto have had those experiences
and all along not knowing whatin the heck I was doing here,
where this was going, why peoplewill always ask me questions
about why you're doing this orhow you're doing this or
whatever, and those are thethings you have to leave up to
(18:16):
the Lord.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So he keeps.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
If the path is there, I just keep going on the path.
So, and here we are.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It's like this pilgrimage you don't know where
you're going, but you're goingwith the Lord and that's all
that matters.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It's good that we don't know because if we knew I
honestly, if you would have laidthis all out for me how this
was going to go, I'd be like Ithink I'll stick with being a
partner at the law firm anddonate to somebody who might be
crazy enough to do this.
But anyway, no, it's been ablessing.
Yeah, it's priceless.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's a beautiful lesson.
How have you seen, you know,how have you seen Pierre
Georgiou's effect in his family,who maybe didn't even know him,
but they're hearing the storiesthat we're hearing, you know?
Do you see that effect of thisholiness, of this man that only
lived to 24?
How does that impact his family?
I can't comprehend having arelative.
(19:07):
That's a canonized saint right.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, I don't know how it's impacted them.
I the story of Pierre-Georges.
So Pierre-Georges' sistermarried the January of the year
that he died, so obviously noneof his nieces and nephews ever
knew who he was After he died.
It was very, of course, it wouldbe for your parents to suffer
(19:30):
the loss of their child, but itwas told to me that his father
couldn't bear to see pictures ofhim in his daughter's home and
that when he would go there tovisit she would, you know, put
pictures in the drawer, orsomething like that.
And his father eventually cameback to the fullness of the
(19:52):
faith and he has written somebeautiful things, the pain of
losing his son and so on.
And his mother began, becauseof that outpouring of the people
there, to work on thecanonization cause, but for his
living relatives I think theydidn't have any experience of
(20:13):
that.
And then the cause, for reasons, was put on hold and it didn't
get reopened again until thelate 70s, I think, is when it
was reopened.
So so they all grew up reallywith him being a figure, but not
necessarily celebrated in thechurch because things were put
(20:35):
on hold for so long.
Okay, so they had luchana'sbooks, which she actually didn't
write, those books till aboutmaybe 30 years or so after he
passed away.
Um, there were commemorations ofhis death and things like that.
But I don't think, as opposed tocarlo cutas's mother and her
family, who are actually likeliving in the moment because
(20:55):
it's so fresh and she lived withher, you know they all.
So I think, for the family, theimpact of the family I don't
really know how that impactsthem to process, like the fact
that he was not being canonized,not being beatified.
Then he was beatified and thenthere was another law, and now
you have somebody who's a famoussaint because for them their
father was a very famous, I mean, the, the grandfather, the
(21:17):
father of Luciana and PieroGiorgio was a very significant,
famous figure and that wouldhave been something.
And then you know, lucianaherself was a very accomplished,
significant figure.
So I just think that they havea richness in the family of
everyone, a richness in thefamily of everyone and I don't
know how the the life of PieroGiorgio.
(21:39):
You know what dimension that isfor them in.
In all of that.
It's a lot.
I think it's a lot for them tohave that kind of a legacy in
their family their familyhistory.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah yeah, we're so far removed from Italian history
.
I mean, the average Americandoesn't even realize, like you
know, even, that there used tobe kingdoms in Italy, right?
Like the idea of like theunification of Italy is like
some foreign idea.
We don't know history outsideour own um in America, and so,
like we don't even know his dad,we don't think about that.
And so the thing that this is avery you know, there's, there's
multi-level of famousness intheir family.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, one of the things I think is interesting.
If you go to Polone to visitthe home of Pier Giorgio, you
drive up.
The main road is called ViaPier Giorgio Frassati.
So when you go into Poloneyou're driving on Pier Giorgio
Frassati Street, but you crossover Senator Alfredo Frassati
Street where you find a monumentof Mr Frassati.
So there's a streetintersection right Frassati and
(22:38):
Frassati.
So you had a worldly figure ofsuccess and a spiritual figure
of success on this crossroadsthere, literally.
So, yeah, it's a lot to thinkabout in a family like that.
I know, when Luciana passedaway, one of her sons at the
funeral said to me everyonethinks of my mother in terms of
Pier Giorgio, his uncle, youknow, her brother, he said.
(22:59):
But my mother did so much more.
She saved over a hundred PolishJews from extermination by
directly going to Mussolini andgetting their freedom with her
diplomatic passport.
So for him he was always tryingto be mindful of the fact that
this family, you know, there'sway more than Pierre Giorgio and
Pierre Giorgio would be enoughfor any family, but you have the
mother, the grandpa, you know.
(23:20):
So there's a lot that thisfamily has contributed in the,
you know, in the life of in thattimeframe and extending even
far beyond so far more than wecan comprehend, I think.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Um, you talked a little bit about the lull and
then you know we were waitingfor the canonization.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout the miracle that led to
his canonization?
Were you surprised that?
I mean, I think after a while,when you're waiting, you're like
oh, it's actually happening.
Um, you know just the idea thathe's getting canonized in this
Jubilee year.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout the miracle that was
approved?
So the miracle was.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I was aware of the miracle in 2019.
It happened in 2017.
But you are absolutely right.
You're like is this finallyhappening?
Because I'll up on them and thepowers that be decide which
things get investigated.
So when this was the one thatwas chosen to be investigated
(24:27):
and approved, I think everybodyis scratching their heads a
little bit because it's not oneof these.
Wow, you know, incredibledramatic life and death type of
miracles.
Incredible dramatic life anddeath type of miracles.
It was the.
He was a seminarian at the timein the diocese of Los Angeles
playing basketball.
I just recently ran intosomebody who knows things about
Los Angeles and she told me thatin that diocese it's a big
(24:50):
thing to have the seminariansplaying the priest in a game of
basketball out there.
This it's like some big thing, Iguess.
Anyway, this seminarian injuredhis he tore his Achilles tendon
playing basketball, and so thatwas the miracle was the
miraculous healing of hisAchilles tendon.
And somebody wrote a recently agreat reflection on that,
saying how this is a nicemiracle actually for Piero de
(25:12):
Giorgio, because it showssomething that didn't have to
have a miracle, because he couldhave had surgery and repaired
his torn Achilles tendon, so itwasn't like a stage four cancer
or something dramatic like that,or the brain injury of Kevin
Becker, who everyone thinksoften is the actual canonization
(25:33):
miracle, because that's beenfar more publicized, but it's a
simple miracle and a sweet storyof, I think, the intercession
for the little things, which Ithink is a significant thing.
It was a big thing for FatherGutierrez.
He's now an ordained priest inthe Diocese of Los Angeles and
(25:56):
you can find his beautifultestimony about that healing
online.
But yeah, it was a simplehealing of an Achilles tendon.
And so sometimes people you knowask about that.
I don't know, I don't know.
Another miracle the firstmiracle for Peter Giorgio
happened in the 1930s and it wasa dramatic case, but I think
(26:17):
there is a real beauty to this asports injury and something
that just affected thisparticular person.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Um, it was a frustrating, disappointing thing
for him and obviously there'ssome special reason that pietro
giorgio wanted to do this forfather gutierrez, yeah, yeah,
(26:51):
there's like a tenderness, atenderness with a tendon,
exactly life and his dailychoices that led him to heaven,
right, that he brought peoplewith him to mass and he, you
know, spoke out when injusticewas happening and he served the
poor when he, you know, and itwasn't just, oh, he sat and
prayed, but he, like, he wasactive, that man of the
Beatitudes, but that it was inhis ordinary life, and I think
(27:12):
that this kind of ordinarymiracle kind of speaks to the
ordinariness.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I think so and it's a good lesson for us too, to
remember that it's not just thebig things out there.
Like some people, I mean, ourlives ebb and flow, and
sometimes you have moresuffering than other times.
You know my mother used to sayyou have the joyful and the
sorrowful and the glorious, youknow, like the mysteries of the
rosary in your life, and I thinkthat's true.
But God, as scripture tells us,worries about every hair on our
(27:39):
head, and so it doesn't have tobe like I'm only going to pray
if I have like this worst,terrible thing that's happening
to me.
I think it's a good messagethat God cares about everything,
as do the saints, and PeterGiorgio, and he, in his
friendship with us, I think,would want us to be able to
participate in the things thatwe do.
There's a letter in one of inthe Pierre Georges book of
(28:01):
letters where he talks about hehas to skip an adventure to the
mountains for a ski tournamentbecause he has a problem with,
well, a climb that he was goingto go on, because he's injured
his knee, and he describes theinjury to his knee and so so
like that was a frustratingthing for me because he knew he
for him, because he knew hewasn't going to be able to do
(28:23):
that.
So, like, those things affectedhim little things and then he
had the dramatic big things inhis life.
But I think it's a goodreminder for us that God cares
about every little thing and itdoesn't have to be only the big
things that we run to God,because a lot of people wait
until they're on their lastbreath of gasp of life before
they turn to God.
And God should be with us allof the time, in everything and
(28:45):
the little things now, and notjust wait till things get so bad
and then you decide, ok, Ireally need God.
Now I'm going to pray.
I mean he's there for the littlethings, the daily things as
well as not going to bug him.
And we don't all you know, noteverybody gets the big things
anyway, but um yeah, so I've umtaken a lot of consolation from
(29:06):
that miracle actually that thelittle things that matter to me.
God hears, he's listening, he'syou know.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, I love that.
What, how do you think so he'sgetting canonized in this
Jubilee year, this year of hope?
And how is Pierre Giorgio asign for hope for us today?
How is he a pilgrim of hope?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It's really perfect timing.
I think the one number onething people say about Pierre
Giorgio he's so relatable.
Okay, he's so relatable.
Everybody can find something inPierre Giorgio.
But the relatability of him is,I think, what makes him such an
important figure for peoplefrom the standpoint of hope.
Because, okay, pierre de Georgiadidn't get the best grades.
We know he was out doing allthese works of poor.
(29:51):
So if you don't have a good,you know straight A report card,
you can still be a saint.
Like he gives you hopeacademically.
And he had a relationship thatdidn't go the way he wanted and
so and his parents had a veryunhappy marriage, were on the
verge of separation.
You maybe come from a bad homelife or an unhappy home life or
unhappy relationship with yourown spouse, and and you can be a
(30:16):
saint.
Pier Giorgio did all, he did alot of things that in the
ordinariness of his life that Ithink people can look at that
and say, if he could do it,there's hope for me.
And so I think that in someways, the ordinariness of Pier
Giorgio and the jubilee of hope,hand in hand, show us that
there's hope for everyone, nomatter what your circumstance.
(30:37):
People can confine him to well.
He came from a wealthy home andhe had these opportunities, but
he really suffered In many ways.
He suffered withmisunderstanding and loneliness
and the lack of spirituality inthe home, a lack of
understanding in the home of hisown, the way he lived his life,
the struggles, the comparisons,the pressures, the things he
had to sacrifice, and in the endhe was able to overcome all of
(31:00):
that and choose the things thatmatter more, like be faithful to
the fundamentals of the faith,practicing his spiritual life,
communion, confession, servingthe poor and all of those things
, being faithful to that,finishing the race, finishing
the race until the day he died.
And so I look at it as if, ifPier Giorgio could do those
(31:22):
things as just a regular guywith all of the pressures and
things that we have, then thereis hope for me, because I'm
never going to be the one whosees the blessed mother or who
founds the hospital in here orbilocates or becomes the Pope or
something, and so we alwayscompartmentalize sanctity for
those people, and I think PietroGiorgio gives us the hope of
(31:42):
holiness for us, as does, Ithink, carlo Acutis, you know,
also shows us, in the same waythat in your everyday
circumstances and the challengesthat you face.
Yes, you can be holy, and sothe hope of holiness now, not
just later, is, I think, what hereally brings us by the
synergistic timing of theJubilee year.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Yeah, I agree.
Sometimes we dismiss theordinary things as like oh well,
that's not holiness, that's toonormal.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
But I fail at those.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I fail at those all the time.
The ordinary things.
That's where God wants me to befaithful.
Do I need to be more outspokenabout political injustice?
Do I need to help the pooroutside my home?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
right, um, and that's where he's calling me to be we
might all have the capacity tobe a hero in some dramatic
situation, but the heroic virtueof daily life for I think
especially lay people in theworld you know to get up and
every day make those choices,that you're yes to God, on a
(32:46):
daily basis, when you're not ina religious community, when you
don't have some kind ofobligation to do those things, I
think it's you know, I justgetting out of bed sometimes, I
think is canonization material.
So I think the ordinariness oflife, as John Paul II said, that
(33:07):
that's what compels us to lookat him and imitate him, because
as you say it's not that easyevery day.
It's not that easy every day togo through the world being in
the world and not of the world.
And that's really what PierreGeorges shows us.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, I like to say that saints are made on Monday
mornings, right, like justgetting out of bed sometimes is
heroic.
Do you, as we finish up, do youhave a favorite Pierre Giorgio
story, a favorite story or apersonal anecdote, maybe
something that you don't thinkpeople know about him, or just
something that you'd like toshare about him?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I have so many stories about Pierre Giorgio
that I love, so rather, I um, Ilike to, when people ask me that
, I like to give you, um, triviathat maybe people don't know.
So, and it's a cute story in away, but one of the unknown
things that I've been toldpersonally.
So I believe it's true, it cameright from the horse's mouth
(34:02):
that when Pier Giorgio was beingbeatified, the Vatican had this
is kind of Pier Giorgio in anutshell in a way, but when he
was being beatified, they hadprepared a holy looking image
for his banner to be displayedon the facade of St Peter's, and
his sister was his banner to bedisplayed on the facade of St
(34:24):
Peter's and his sister was notwanting that.
And so if you ever can look ata beatification image of St
Peter's, peter Georgia wasbeatified alone, which was
saying something, a statement, Ithink, by Pope John Paul.
But you see this picture of aguy in mountain climbing clothes
hanging there on the front ofSt Peter's.
If you could look closely youwould see that the head and body
don't match.
So this was 1990.
(34:45):
It was a little bit beforeeverybody had personal computers
and all of the ability toPhotoshop things and so on.
So what they did at the time,the picture of Pier Giorgio on
the mountains was a picture withhim with a pipe in his mouth,
and so they put this mountainclimbing picture.
But they didn't want thepicture with the pipe.
So they put the head of him at16 on the body of him in like 24
(35:09):
years old.
If you ever see that it's alittle bit of trivia and it just
kind of.
It's an interesting thing,because if you smoke a pipe you
can still get to heaven,obviously.
But the funny part too of thatstory is so then after someone's
beatified, they go for a, theyhave a mass to celebrate that in
(35:29):
their diocese, and so they goto the diocese of Turin to have
this big mass and they bring outthe banner of the holy one that
Luchana Frassati didn't want,of the holy one that Luchana
Frassati didn't want.
And so Wanda told me that asthey're processing out, she says
Luchana says to her daughter goand get that banner.
She didn't want them to usethat banner but it was too late.
(35:50):
Wanda said it was too late,what could I do?
And then, after the mass wasover, they did go and get it and
removed it so it wouldn't beused again.
But Wanda says that during thekiss of peace the Cardinal came
up to Luciana and said peace, bewith you.
And she said to him I will haveno peace until you get rid of
(36:14):
that horrid banner.
So I just think it's a greatstory of how the family wanted
us to have him as a normal saintthat you know.
This guy makes it to thebeatification and he has to have
an image with a head and bodythat don't match, but he
wouldn't have cared.
I mean, he was a practical jokerand I think that he would find
that amusing and then for hissister to be so determined that
(36:35):
he remained normal for us.
So I like the fact that shetook great care for that.
And if you're able to go to thefamily home, it's another
beautiful thing about how theyhave preserved things in a very
accessible way, which I think isincredibly generous that you
can walk into that home.
It's not a museum, they don'tsell tickets.
(36:55):
It's their home and you canstill go in there and pray at
the bed of Pierre Giorgio.
So I like that they werewanting to go to such great
lengths to make him normal andaccessible for us, as he would
want to be always for hisfriends.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, yeah, it makes you wonder.
You know, we have the kind ofthis like hagiographical account
of a lot of the ancient saintsand I wish that we could get
underneath that sometimes andsay like, yeah, but tell me a
story of when they saints.
And I wish that we could getunderneath that sometimes and
say like, yeah, but tell me astory of when they played a
practical joke, or tell me astory of when they messed up.
Right, I, I need some likenormal stories, and so that's
what I'm really grateful for.
Pierre Georgiou I love thepicture of him with the paper
(37:32):
hat on.
Um, he has that like newspaperhat and he's holding a bottle.
And I'm like you, like that'sholiness too, you know, and so
it's, it's refreshing.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Some people don't agree with you, but, yes, some
people get annoyed at seeingthose kinds of everyday pictures
.
But yes, I agree, I agree withyou.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's he.
He's the saint, for for me, hegives me hope.
Right, it's real life.
And if we're not?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
human and living real life, then there's no hope for
any of us.
I mean, we can't.
Our life is not 24 seven insideof the church walls.
It's like you said begins on aMonday morning and then it goes
throughout the day and everyencounter, and that's really the
lesson of pure Georgia.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, perfect.
Well, thank you, christine.
I think that's a great way toend.
Thank you for telling us astory and and sharing your own
story, and we'll be celebratingwith you this summer.
Just really thrilled, we get tosay, saint Pier Giorgio
Frassati, we're going to have tochange all the holy cards that
Verso Ministries passes out,because they all say blessed,
and now we get to change them.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
That's a good problem to have right.
It is.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
It is.
Thanks so much and thanks,listeners.
Share this episode with someonewho may need to know the real
Per Giorgio Frassati.
Maybe they just know him as amountain climber and he was that
, but we would love to spreadthe word that he's somebody to
really emulate, even when therearen't physical mountains in our
lives.
God bless, listeners.
Please share the episode andtune in as we continue our
(38:56):
Jubilee series here on NVEA.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
individual looking for a trip,verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashJubilee for all our Jubilee
(39:17):
dates and for more information.
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.