July 30, 2024 • 42 mins
What lessons lie in the ancient text of the Book of Tobit? Dr. Gary Anderson, Hesburgh Professor of Catholic Thought from the University of Notre Dame, joins us to unravel the profound themes of charity, sacrifice, and faith found within this captivating Biblical narrative.
Explore how Tobit's acts of corporal mercy, such as feeding the hungry and burying the dead, foreshadow teachings in the New Testament and align with early Christian views on social justice. Drawing parallels with the trials and redemption in the Book of Job, Dr. Anderson illuminates how themes of exile and hope permeate Tobit's story. Delve into Tobit's journey, his unwavering faith, and the ultimate redemption that highlights the significance of charity as a form of worship, resonating with early Christian thought.
Join us as we navigate the rich narrative and theological depth of Tobit's journey from the far north to Jerusalem, his son Tobias's perilous quest, and the moving song of thanksgiving in Chapter 13. Understand the Christological themes within Tobit's prayer of confession and the concept of corporate sin, reflecting on how these ancient teachings hold relevance for collective responsibility today. This episode promises to deepen your understanding of the lessons embedded in this oft-overlooked book of the Bible.
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Episode Transcript
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Joan (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're navigating
the pilgrimage of life.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
I'm joined today by Dr GaryAnderson, the Hesburgh Professor
of Catholic Thought at theUniversity of Notre Dame.
His specialization is theHebrew Bible, the Old Testament,
(00:41):
and in today's conversation wetackle the book of Tobit as a
story of pilgrimage and life inVia.
Well, good morning Gary, goodmorning to you.
Dr. Gary Anderson (00:53):
Joan, how are you?
Joan (00:54):
today.
Dr. Gary Anderson (00:54):
It's a great morning, weather's good.
I'm happy.
Joan (00:57):
Yeah, it's always good when we have good weather in
South Bend.
You know like it may be few andfar between, but when it's nice
it's nice, right.
The summers are great.
Dr. Gary Anderson (01:07):
I regret that the students don't get to enjoy
this.
They spend most of theiracademic year and when South
Bend's the worst.
Joan (01:12):
Yeah, graduation weekend is always gorgeous, and then
they go on their way, right?
Dr. Gary Anderson (01:17):
That's exactly right.
Joan (01:18):
So we're talking about South Bend because Dr Anderson
teaches at the University ofNotre Dame.
Why don't you tell ourlisteners a little bit about
yourself?
Dr. Gary Anderson (01:27):
So my area of academic specialization is the
Bible, specifically the OldTestament.
I studied, received my PhD atHarvard University and I've been
very fortunate in teaching atvery good institutions.
I started out at the Universityof Virginia and then moved back
to Harvard, where I was, butthen, happily in 2003, I think
(01:52):
it was I was, you know, given ajob at Notre Dame and took that
in a heartbeat and have beenhere for almost 20 years now or
actually 20, a little over 20years, and it's been fantastic.
I love teaching here.
Joan (02:04):
Yeah, I would imagine that the students at Notre Dame,
while we do have a very diversestudent body and not everyone's
Catholic obviously is itdifferent teaching the Old
Testament at the University ofVirginia versus Notre Dame?
How is that compared in yourmind?
Dr. Gary Anderson (02:21):
It is, but maybe for reasons that might
surprise some listeners, I think, and surprised me as well.
When I arrived here Iimmediately began teaching our
required theology course forfirst-year students, which I
love doing.
I've taught it the entire timeI've been here.
But I had taught nearly 20years before I arrived at Notre
(02:42):
Dame but never took a coursethat wasn't an elective for the
student in question.
So whenever I walked in theclassroom I knew all the
students in there had chosen tobe there.
But it was a little bit of asurprise to walk into a
classroom where almost no onechose to be there and some would
have rather been in a differentclass if they could have chosen
(03:04):
freely, would have rather beenin a different class if they
could have chosen freely.
So initially I had to kind ofadjust my teaching style to that
audience.
But over my time at Notre DameI've come to really love that.
It's a challenge and my goalalways every semester is to have
I of course can never achieve100% unanimity, but to get as
many students as possible onboard with the notion that this
(03:26):
is a course they should havechosen.
Could they have had thatopportunity.
But I would say that was a bigmental adjustment to walk into a
room of suspicious students.
Joan (03:36):
Yes, yeah, and that's exactly probably the opposite of
what one would expect thatanswer to be, right, Like, oh, I
teach at Notre Dame and so allthe Catholics know the Old
Testament.
Yeah, right, Right, and so it's.
It's a.
That was almost the flip.
Right that you're coming inhere and you're almost having to
prove your course in a sense.
Dr. Gary Anderson (03:51):
Yeah, very much a flip and of course you
have, you know, resistance froma number of different angles.
I mean, some students were verygood and observant Catholics
but, you know, felt that theyhad taken theology from
kindergarten through high schooland they were ready to move on.
I mean, I can understand that.
But then other students, youknow, were in their period of
rebellion against parents,family and religion, and so from
(04:15):
day one they were, you know,dead set against anything I
would say.
So, yeah, there's a, but thenyou know there are always
students, of course, who areeager for good theological
preparation as well.
I mean that goes without saying, but that's definitely not, you
know, the only attitude youfind when you enter into a
classroom here.
Joan (04:34):
Sure, that first attitude of like well, I took this in
high school, or you know, I wentto Catholic high school and so
now I'm done.
I worked at a diocese for manyyears and with adult formation
we always came across that,right, like I don't.
Well, I went to Catholic school, I know everything and I'm like
no accountant would say that nodoctor would say that Right,
Like I took math in high school,I know everything.
Right that this ongoing idea oflearning in our faith for some
(04:58):
reason gets lost, sometimes withCatholics, like I don't need to
look at religion, I don't needbecause I took it once.
Dr. Gary Anderson (05:04):
Right, I think that's true.
I think you know I'm no experton this, but my sense is that
when you take theology in highschool, it's definitely not at
the intellectual level of yourother courses.
And so students, I think youknow, are generally pleasantly
surprised to see, when they cometo a theology course at Notre
(05:25):
Dame, that the faculty you knowhave the same kind of
credentials that all the otherfaculty at the university do and
that the approach to thematerial is intellectually
serious and rigorous.
Yes, and you know it went overa lot of students on that,
because if theology is justpiety, I mean that's fine if you
believe.
But even people who believe, Ithink, want a deeper kind of
(05:48):
root structure to what theybelieve, and I think that's the
advantage of a well-taughtacademic theology course is that
you can see there are veryclear and reasons that one can
articulate for why one wouldremain in the Catholic Church
Well, that's putting itnegatively, of course, but why
(06:10):
one could thrive within theCatholic Church.
Joan (06:13):
Yeah, yeah.
If we don't raise our theologycourses to the same level of our
other academics, we send outthis message that you know it's
just for nice little old ladiesto pray the rosary at Mass and
we lose the Augustans and theThomas Aquinas and the great.
Like we have the great Westernintellectual tradition, but how
often we fail to kind of passthat on to our kids.
(06:34):
So like your high school mayhave a great biology program but
no, you know, theology program.
Dr. Gary Anderson (06:39):
So there's no AP class in theology, and
that's a shame.
When you think about it, it isa shame.
There definitely could be APtheology.
You could read the Summa thatwould give students a real run
for their money yeah.
Joan (06:53):
Yeah, I love it and this does actually, I think, connect
to this whole theme of thispodcast in VIA, that we are all
on this journey.
We are all on this pilgrimageof life and the intellectual I
think, um, the intellectualsearch is part of that.
That.
You know, you are a differentperson in college than you were
in high school and you'll be adifferent person later the same
person, of course, but thatgrowth in our spiritual life, in
(07:15):
our intellectual life, thatlife is a journey and it's not
stagnant, and the spiritual life, the intellectual life, is part
of that journey.
Um, I was excited, um, I askedDr Anderson, you know, would he
like to talk about, you know,pilgrimage in the Old Testament
or what connected to the OldTestament would he like to talk
about?
And he specifically talked aboutthe idea of invia, about being
(07:37):
on the way on this journey, andconnected it to the book of
Tobit.
So that's going to be our topictoday is the book of Tobit.
I was thrilled because I loveTobit.
I think it's a very accessiblebook because it's so short and
it's a great story.
So I've heard through thegrapevine that you really love
the book of Tobit.
I told someone we're going totalk about Tobit and they said
that doesn't surprise me at all,he loves Tobit.
(07:58):
What drew you really to lovethe book of Tobit in all your
Old Testament studies?
Dr. Gary Anderson (08:02):
That's a great question.
I don't know if I can answerthat because it certainly was an
affection that came upon melate, but I had, I'd say,
multiple points of origin.
But I tried to guess and thispoint would be a guess.
It was when I wrote my book onthe subject of charity.
I turned to Tobit because Tobit, of course, distinguishes
(08:25):
himself through what Catholicswould call the works of charity.
I turn to Tobit because Tobit,of course, distinguishes himself
through what Catholics wouldcall the works of corporal mercy
burying the dead, feeding thehungry, you know, giving water
to the thirsty, basically thevirtues you see in Matthew 25,
you know the criteria that willbe used at the final judgment
for all of us, which isbasically concern for the poor,
(08:50):
and I think many Christiansthink that that, you know, is
the kind of distinctive orunique teaching of Jesus, which
at one level it is, but atanother level, everything you
know Jesus has to say there inMatthew 25 and actually about
charity throughout the NewTestament, has already been
anticipated in the old and inparticular in the book of Tobit.
So I'd say that's really whatyou know drew me to the book.
Also, it has a kind of very muchyou might want to say a Joban
(09:16):
atmosphere.
It's like the book of Job.
In other words, tobit is a manof extraordinary piety, but he's
punished for his piety.
Punished might not be the rightword, but he's tried, let's say
, for his piety.
Struck blind, loses all of hismoney, looks like he's going to
die without grandchildren.
(09:37):
Everything looks very grim.
But then in the end of courseit all turns around as it does
for Job.
But it's important to realizethat the heart of the book or
the center of the book, itcertainly doesn't look like it
will all turn around for Tobitand he's resigned himself to a
tragic early death and sets inmotion what he believes is the
(10:00):
last trip of his son and willend his life as well.
But happily for Tobit itdoesn't turn out that way.
Joan (10:07):
Yes, and I think some of our listeners may be not
familiar with the book.
It's kind of a unique bookwhere it's not in the historical
.
You know you don't find it aspart of like the Exodus Genesis
story.
Right, he's not a prophet, youknow?
Like you said, it kind of fitswith Job, I think, and Judith.
But many of our listeners mightnot be familiar with the story
because it isn't found inProtestant Bibles.
(10:30):
Can you give us like a littlecrash course on the story for
people who might not know thestory?
You've already begun.
Dr. Gary Anderson (10:40):
So, Tobit, I mean formally, it's very similar
, I would say, to the book ofDaniel in the sense that both of
those books their literarysetting is roughly the third
century, you know, bc, about acouple of hundred years before
the birth of Christ.
But their literary setting isfar earlier, in the 8th century
(11:08):
BCE, the period in which thenorthern kingdom of Israel is
overrun by the Assyrians and allof the northerners then are
sent into exile.
Daniel picks up basically thesame theme, but a couple of
hundred years later, when theBabylonians invade and then take
all of the Israelites who livein the south we know as Judeans
and exiles them to Babylon.
(11:28):
So both books are exploring thenotion of exile and hope for
return.
That really links to your Enviatheme because they both situate
themselves within the historyof the people of Israel, in
which they're exiled from theirland but yearning for return and
restoration, and that's verymuch the background of Tobit.
(11:52):
So Tobit takes that theme ofexile and hoped for return from
the vantage point of theAssyrian exile in the 8th
century and Daniel takes thattheme of exile and hoped for
return in the period of theBabylonian conquest.
Joan (12:13):
Yeah, I love this idea of that because Toba is a book of
charity, right, we see thoseacts of charity and Raphael says
, like go and give alms, right,this idea of charity even in an
exile, right, I mean, I think wecan get like down about like oh
well, the culture's notCatholic, and so I'm just going
to go like woe is me, like no,look like Tobit did what he was
(12:34):
supposed to do, even surroundedby suffering, right, even when
he continues to suffer.
This idea that charity neverstops, like we're called to love
everyone, we're called to docharity even in exile, and so I
place that in that context,that's exactly right.
Dr. Gary Anderson (12:49):
I think one of the key themes in the book of
Tobit is the way in which thecharitable impulse replaces
replaces perhaps not the exact,exactly correct word parallels,
we might want to say theobligation to bring sacrifices
to the temple.
So charity develops this strong.
You know what I callsacramental sense.
(13:09):
It is definitely about, youknow, making a better world,
correcting injustices for thepoor, etc.
That's all there.
But it's more than that.
It's really about the worshipof God, and that also overlaps
with what happens within earlyChristianity as well.
I mean, one of my favoritequotes of St John Chrysostom is
(13:30):
after, you know, celebrating themass, he tells his congregants
to go out into the streets ofAntioch and meet the many living
altars there.
That means all the poor peoplein the street.
They're all ways ofencountering Christ.
So that's an important thing torealize that charity is, more
than you know, a social justicemovement, and I have nothing
(13:51):
against social justice.
It is that.
But it's a social justicemovement grounded in a kind of a
very unique form of Christology.
But that's also anticipated inTobit not the Christological
element, but the notion thatone's obligation to the poor is
inseparable from one'sobligation to God, and you can
(14:14):
see that in the very first bookof first chapter, I'm sorry of
Tobit, in which his virtues areinitially displayed in the
extraordinary fidelity he has tothe temple in Jerusalem.
But then, of course, thattemple is going to be destroyed,
and so the author immediatelypicks up with Tobit, now in
(14:34):
exile, acting charitably towardsthose around him, and that
parallelism is, you know, a verypointed and intentional aspect
of the book.
He can no longer worship at thetemple, of course in Assyria,
but he can do the next bestthing, which is to serve God
(14:54):
through his acts of mercy to thepoor.
Joan (14:56):
Wow, and it makes me think about how the temple obviously
was central to the Jews.
It gave them their identity ina lot of ways.
Right, their identity came fromthe Sabbath and from temple
worship.
And when that's taken away andwe see this especially after the
temple destruction in 70 ADthey have to figure out what is
a Jew without a temple?
Right?
But then it reminds me that weare known as Christians by our
(15:20):
love.
That, like, what should give usour identity?
Sure, the Eucharist and thesacrifice of the mass, but, but,
but.
It's very clearly in the NewTestament.
They will know you're mydisciples because you love one
another, and so that charitybeing that defining factor for
us of love of neighbor, not justfor the sake of loving neighbor
, but through then loving theLord sake of loving neighbor but
(15:42):
through then loving the Lord.
Dr. Gary Anderson (15:43):
Yeah, there, I think the document I love to
use in teaching that brings out,you know, the insight you
wonderfully brought up, is DeusCaritas Est of Benedict XVI God
is Love where he makes it quiteclear that, you know, a
Eucharist that doesn't, you know, open up into service of the
poor is a I can't remember hisword not improper, but certainly
a fractured or partialcelebration of the sacrament.
(16:06):
And he has a great quote, youknow, in that same section I
believe it's paragraphs 13 to 18, somewhere in that range where
he says that Mother Teresa'sexperience of the Eucharist was
enriched by her service to thepoor, and her service to the
poor correlatively enriched hercelebration of the Eucharist.
(16:28):
In other words, these kind ofvectors go both ways, and that's
an important thing to bear inmind, because what is the
Eucharist?
It's Christ offering his lifeto us.
And what is charity?
Charity is offering, you know,what we value, our material
possessions, but giving them toothers.
So I mean, in the Christianunderstanding, the charitable
(16:49):
act is deeply, you know,cruciform in that sense.
Joan (16:53):
Yeah, we just came off of the Eucharistic Congress in DC
and one of the talks talkedabout the two lungs of, like
breathing in of the worship ofthe Lord and then breathing out
service to the poor.
And if you only have one, if youdon't, if you only breathe in,
you're going to die.
If you only breathe out, you'regoing to die.
And so that this, this parallelI thought that was a beautiful
(17:13):
image of this, this parallel,like of loving the Lord through
the neighbor.
And it's not just either or,but, it has to be both.
Dr. Gary Anderson (17:20):
and yeah, I think that's at the heart of
what Deus Caritas est wishes tosay, and I think that's exactly
right yeah.
Joan (17:29):
Well, looking back at Tobit, we actually have a
journey of an actual kind ofpilgrimage that Tobit's son
takes with Archangel Raphael.
It's where we find theArchangel Raphael in scripture
in the book of Tobit, so youcould talk.
Could you talk a little bitabout that next part of the
story?
Dr. Gary Anderson (17:48):
So there's actually, if we're thinking
about pilgrimage in Tobit,there's, I think, two journeys
we would want to frame.
So that's one.
I'll get to that in a second.
But the chap book opens up, asI mentioned, with Tobit's, the
you know reciting of Tobit'sfulfillment of the obligation to
go and pilgrimage three times ayear to Jerusalem, and that's
(18:09):
the primary pilgrimage.
You know, theme within the OldTestament is the term in Hebrew,
is Allah or Aliyah, is the noun, verbal noun, to go up, to go
up to the city of Jerusalem toworship God at his holy mountain
.
And there are three occasionsduring the year in which the
religious Israelite, or now thereligious Jew, would be
(18:31):
obligated to do such Passover,pentecost and the Feast of
Booths, in the fall.
In the fall.
And we read in chapter one thatTobit, you know, is exemplary
among his peers as the only onein northern Israel who continues
to do this after the northernkingdom separates from the south
and establishes alternativeworship sites.
But Tobit is portrayed as a manof, you know, super erogatory
(18:56):
piety because of hiscontinuation to follow the
injunctions of the book ofDeuteronomy.
But more than that, it's alsoquite significant that Tobit
hails from the tribe of Naphtali, because if you look at a map,
if you go to the back of yourBibles, where you have maps,
you'll notice that Naphtali isin the far north, which means
his journey is of a considerabledistance.
(19:20):
I mean if he was located, forexample, in the tribe of
Benjamin, which is right nextdoor to Jerusalem, he'd
basically fall out of bed.
And he's there.
But that's not how the booksets up the story.
Tobit is from the far north, sothis journey, this pilgrimage
that he makes, that exemplifieshis virtuosity, is something
that comes at great cost to hisperson.
(19:42):
Now the book is framed by thatstory of his going up to
Jerusalem.
But the book ends in part inchapter 13, with the famous song
of thanksgiving of Tobit, inwhich he not only thanks God for
restoring him from death tolife, from being blind to having
sight, from only one child tonow a married child with many
(20:06):
grandchildren.
All of these are exemplary inthe Old Testament of going from
death to life.
We can see that in the NewTestament too.
The story of the prodigal sontalks about the son going from I
was dead, but now I'm alive, oryou were dead.
I can't remember if the fathermight say that, but that's very
much the movement in Tobit.
But Tobit uses that occasionnot simply to celebrate what God
(20:29):
did for him but to use, as itwere, that action of God on his
behalf as leverage for thepeople Israel.
So his concerns aren't justabout himself or his immediate
family, but his entire people,and he expresses that with the
hope that Jerusalem will berebuilt and that Jerusalem will
reflect the promises made tothis city in the second half of
(20:51):
the prophet Isaiah.
So if you look at Tobit 13,you'll see that he's channeling
some of the more extraordinarypromises made to Jerusalem in
the prophet Isaiah.
But all of that's very importantbecause we have to remember
that Tobit, as I mentioned, iswritten in the second century,
when actually the temple isrebuilt.
But what's very important forJudaism in this period is,
(21:13):
though they celebrate thattemple that's within Jerusalem,
they realize, because of thenature of biblical promises,
that God has promised an evenbigger and better temple.
So even though they're makingpilgrimage to Jerusalem in the
time in which the book of Tobitis written, they're still
expecting more.
So they are still in via, right, they haven't arrived.
(21:36):
That's a very important featureof the book.
It's a kind of already in part.
Yes, the second temple has beenbuilt, but not yet the full
expectation of what God intendsto bring about is still awaited.
So this theme of Jerusalem andthe notion of being in via and
the rebuilding of Jerusalem allof which, of course, is in the
(21:57):
background in the book ofRevelation, and Christian
eschatology as well, is a deeppart of the book.
So that's the frame, so that'sa very important element of
travel, and we might want to saypilgrimage within the book of
Tobit.
But then really the heart ofthe book is what you mentioned
in terms of the plot line ofTobit's own life, which is
(22:18):
sending his son, tobias, on whatappears to be, at least in the
frame of the book, a dangerousjourney to recover funds that
Tobit has left on deposit.
The book never says why Tobiashas to go and do this.
In fact, tobit's wife is quiteangry at sending the son on this
(22:43):
perilous journey.
Joan (22:44):
She's kind of an angry woman in this book, isn't she I?
Dr. Gary Anderson (22:47):
think she's justified, though I mean, I
think most of us wouldsympathize with that.
They only have one son left.
Why risk everything on a tripthat seems so dangerous?
Of course he's beingaccompanied, as you mentioned,
by the archangel Raphael, butthey don't know that he's just a
guy an ordinary citizen.
So why entrust your onlyremaining son to a stranger?
(23:11):
But that's of course a riskthat Tobit assumes.
That pays off spectacularly inways they could never have
foreseen.
They're imagining, or Tobit'simagining he's going to retrieve
the money he left on deposit.
But he finds a far moreimportant goal or aim as he
(23:33):
embarks on this journey when hemeets his future wife, who also
is suffering for her piety aswell your wife, who also is
suffering for her piety as well.
All of her husbands are put todeath when they enter the
wedding canopy, so she seems tobe damaged goods.
I think that's an importantpart of the story as well,
because when Tobias decides togo through with that marriage
(23:57):
and consummate the marriage, ofcourse on his wedding night, he
has to know full well that thisnight hasn't ended well for all
the previous suitors.
So it's a risk on his behalf.
And in fact one of the kind ofcomic moments in the book is his
father-in-law is out digging agrave.
That's my favorite part, Ithink.
Yeah it's an incredible moment.
I mean, he's just convinced thisis the end, but it doesn't
(24:22):
prove to be the end they survivetheir wedding night and then,
very importantly for the book,he not only survives, they marry
and they eventually have manychildren.
So that can allow the book toend in what I like to call the
kind of Old Testamentperspective on resurrection or
beatific vision how to charmedor beatified characters end
(24:46):
their life.
In the Bible they usually endtheir life with their children,
grandchildren and sometimes evengreat grandchildren gathered
around them.
That was true for Jacob Abrahamin the book of Genesis.
It's true for Job veryimportant element of the book of
Job that when he dies all ofhis family is around him, and
the same thing then of coursehappens for Tobit.
(25:07):
That really is the sign that helived a graced life, but that
didn't seem to be in the cardsin chapter four, and it was that
risky journey that his sonembarks on that made all of that
possible.
Joan (25:23):
There's a passage that I love, a chapter um, where
Tobit's praying and we have thistemptation to even end his life
, like he asks the Lord, like,take me right, like, why am I?
And then we have this parallelimage with um, with, with Sarah,
sarah, yes, yeah, sarah,praying the same thing because
she's been insulted by her maid.
You know, um, she's not beensuccessful, all her husbands
(25:44):
have died, and on the weddingnight, very dramatically, and um
, and that, that, like, the Lordhears their prayer at the same
time, right, and this idea that,um, they're, in a sense, the
world would look at them asdamaged goods, like you said,
right, like he's a blind old manthat you know what has he what?
What reward has his pietygotten him?
But suffering, right, and sheapparently is faithful, but
(26:08):
she's been cursed by this demon,right, that has killed her
husband.
And so this willingness just tocry out to the Lord, to put
ourselves in his hands, and theLord rewards that prayer greatly
, like more than they couldprobably ever imagine.
And it just gives me so muchhope that we are all in the
middle of our stories.
Right, we're in the middle ofthe story, we're not at the end
(26:29):
of the story and to never giveup that prayer and to never give
up on others that never judgethose damaged goods, because the
Lord is still working in theirlives.
Dr. Gary Anderson (26:39):
No, that's very true, and I think I mean I
mentioned the Jobin element.
I think it's a key theme in thebook of Tobit and we, you know,
one of the ways in which we canmeasure Tobit's virtue is by
the fact that he retains hisfaithfulness to God and to the
moral life, the moral lifestructured by charity, even
(27:00):
though not only is it notrewarded but, you know, it seems
to be from all externalcircumstance punished.
So it makes, you know, hisvirtuosity, you know, all the
more stellar and reallysupernatural.
You know, augustine, one of myfavorite lines from Augustine on
the book of Tobit is that youknow he said that Tobit had to
(27:21):
see the world through asupernatural light.
You, know, even though he wasblind, he clearly saw, or
retained, a notion of God'sgoodness through it all, which
is you know.
Yes, I think it's one of themore spectacular features of the
book.
Joan (27:36):
Yeah, that faithfulness.
And it is a book of greatadventure, right?
I mean, it seems to bedangerous.
They get attacked by a largefish.
I mean, there's this like crazyscene where this fish I mean,
there's this like crazy scenewhere this fish I think the
translation varies and whatexactly came out of the water,
but then they kill it and thatends up being a source of
healing for Tobit's blindness,which is it's just.
Dr. Gary Anderson (27:58):
There's all these fantastic elements in the
story, yeah, that like kind oflife threatening moment.
And you're right, One of thethings that's actually a
challenge for Tobit is that thetext is very unstable.
So there's a couple of Greektranslations, for example, that
scholars refer to when they'retrying to reconstruct the text
of Tobit, and then you haveseveral Latin versions and
(28:21):
versions in other languages aswell.
At Qumran we have probablyremnants you know remnants of
the Aramaic original, butthey're only remnants.
They're kind of scattered.
You know pieces.
So the story sometimes isdifficult to reconstruct.
I think of it as analogous to daVinci's painting the Last
Supper, which was marred by.
(28:43):
They eventually built a doorthat wiped out Christ's feet,
for example.
So scholars that work on thatpainting have to rely to a
degree on early drawings of youknow other artists who love the
painting, because those are ourrecords of how it might have
really looked.
And in a sense with Tobit it'sthe same thing.
(29:03):
We have all of these differentversions looked and in a sense
with Tobit it's the same thing.
We have all of these differentversions.
We have to take guesses as towhat the original might have
looked like.
I mean I shouldn't overstatethe matter.
I mean 90% of the plot line isquite clear but there are many
moments like the encounter withthe fish of course that are
somewhat more ambiguous.
But the encounter with the fishis extraordinary because it
(29:25):
actually provides the means ofsolving the two problems of the
book Sarah's, you know, abilityto marry and mother children,
but also the healing of Tobit'sblindness.
And the fish is the kind of keyingredient for both of those
problems.
Joan (29:45):
Can we see a spiritual meaning behind that of this?
Like I mean, is it just thisrandom thing that this fish
attacks them and then the liveris used to, you know, or can we?
Can we look into it as aspiritual, like once he was
willing to face death.
Then I don't know.
I I'm making this up as I goalong right now, but I just
(30:05):
think it's.
Is it just this randomoccurrence, or is there
something deeper there, wherethere's this encounter with
death that he, raphael, helpshim overcome and then out of
that comes healing, out of thatcomes resurrection for both
involved?
Dr. Gary Anderson (30:20):
That's an interesting suggestion.
I have to say I haven't thoughtabout it.
I have to say I haven't thoughtabout it, but I think the book
(30:48):
is very much up being not onlynot the end of him but actually
the restoration of the entirefamily, so that this, you know,
flirtation, we might want to saywith death, becomes the
occasion of a life-giving moment.
And in that sense the book, Ithink, is also deeply
Christological or we might wantto say, cruciform in character,
(31:09):
where the cross becomes not theend of a tragic life but
actually the occasion of thecelebration of a divine reward
for a life well-lived.
Joan (31:20):
And that's very much part of Tobit as well I was going to
ask do any of the church fathersor any biblical commentators
see this as a Christological,that the father sends the son
out on mission?
Right, the father sends hisonly son out, and then the son's
.
You know this great adventureof the son almost like the
incarnation then leads to thatrestoration.
(31:43):
That's a good question, I mean.
Dr. Gary Anderson (31:45):
I've written on that subject, but I'm not a
church father so that doesn'tcount so honestly, I've not
checked that out.
Perhaps I should have.
I mean, we don't have a lot ofcommentary on the book.
Among the church fathers wehave Ambrose, I think, has a
short commentary which I'velooked at but haven't carefully
(32:07):
studied, and then Cyprian alsocomments on the book, but I
don't remember that hehighlights that.
I think Cyprian's interest ismore on Tobit as a man of
charity and you know theparallels of Tobit to the New
Testament virtues were obviousto all of these writers and
(32:28):
that's typically where they wentthe focus.
Joan (32:31):
Yeah Well, this has been beautiful and I think it's given
us a lot of fruit for our ownprayer as we're looking at our
own lives in Via, as we'relooking at our own pilgrimage of
life.
Looking at our own pilgrimageof life, you know all these
themes of a life of charity, alife in exile.
You know resurrection out ofdeath, this idea of hope.
(32:52):
I think it really more than Iwas even expecting before we
started this conversation.
I think it speaks to us asChristians in via.
On the way, I have one questionthat I don't know whether it
has an answer to, but do youhave any insight as to the dog?
Dr. Gary Anderson (33:09):
No, everyone asks about the dog.
Joan (33:11):
It's quite surprising.
Dr. Gary Anderson (33:12):
It's an interesting little detail, it is
it appears twice when peopledraw.
We have, of course, artisticrenderings Rembrandt and the,
etc.
They'll often show the littledoggy as I say running along
with Tobias.
But it is quite surprisingbecause dogs don't have that
kind of cachet generally in theBible.
(33:34):
If anything they're you know,animals of you know less.
I don't want to saydisreputable, but certainly not
charming in the way we imaginethem.
But it is a very charminganimal in the book of Tobit and
I have no wisdom on that.
Joan (33:47):
I apologize.
No, I think it's somethingwe'll just wait in heaven and
ask.
You know, ask Tobit himself,like because, um, for those of
you who haven't read Tobit,there it's very clearly
mentioned like and the dog wentwith them and the, you know,
wasn't part doesn't seem to bepart of Jewish culture.
And so who is this little dog?
And, um, I mean I think now wecan look at Fido as a some.
(34:09):
You know the dog is a symbol offidelity, but that wouldn't
have been.
That would be reading somethingnow back into that.
Dr. Gary Anderson (34:16):
I think we want to resist that, but on the
other hand, I have no goodanswer.
So um, I guess any any answerwe suggest as a possibility.
Joan (34:24):
I love it.
Um there anything else youwould like to note about this
beautiful book, this rich book?
As we wrap up, Any finalthoughts or any last points?
Dr. Gary Anderson (34:39):
So I mean, I think one of the more profound
themes of the book and youalluded to it already is Tobit's
prayer in chapter three.
I've always viewed this also asdeeply Christological, because
what's surprising about it isit's a prayer of confession of
sin.
But we know from the beginningof the book of Tobit that Tobit
is, at least with respect towhat brought on the exile of the
northern kingdom, completelyinnocent of those sins.
(35:02):
And the first chapter of thebook is set out really to
demonstrate his innocence, butmore than innocence I would call
his supererogatory faith.
That is, a faith that goesbeyond any kind of normal
measurement in the way in which,descending from the tribe of
Naphtali, he engages faithfullyin the three pilgrimage
(35:25):
festivals and the reason forexiling the Northern Kingdom is
because they specifically didn'tdo that.
So chapter three is a bigshocker when we see Tobit, you
know, confess that sin.
But for me this is very similarto Jesus agreeing to
participate in John's baptism.
My colleague now passed away,sadly.
(35:47):
John Meyer, in his, you know,famous set of books on the
historical Jesus, you know,commented at great length on you
know Jesus' agreement toundergo John's baptism, which
was utilized by some scholars ina kind of anti-Christian sense.
Well, this is a baptism for theforgiveness of sins, jesus
willingly participates, ergo isa baptism for the forgiveness of
sins, jesus willinglyparticipates, ergo he must have
(36:09):
understood himself as a sinner,to which John Myers said well, I
mean, in a sense, that's a kindof you know logical syllogism.
That can't be, you know broken.
But what's wrong with it is thepresumption that confession of
sin in this period was theconfession of individual and
(36:29):
individual sins, whereas we knowthat confession of sin as
imagined by the John the Baptistis a confession of corporate
sin, of you know Israel'sdisobedience that led to her
exile.
And so when Jesus participateswithin that confession of sin,
(36:51):
what he's essentially doing mycolleague John Meyer argued is
demonstrating his fidelity andsolidarity with his people.
Right, that he doesn't seehimself as somehow holier than
thou and point his finger andsay, well, you're suffering
because you did this, but Ididn't do that, so I don't
suffer.
No, but that's not Jesus'sperson.
(37:13):
Jesus engages in radicalsolidarity with his people of
Israel and so can engage in thisconfession of sin, not because
he himself is a sinner, butbecause he loves his people.
And I think that's exactly howwe should read that prayer of
Tobit in chapter three, not thathe's the second person of the
Trinity and innocent in the wayJesus is.
(37:34):
I don't want to overstate thematter, but his confession of
sin, which initially appearssomewhat, you know, unusual,
given his innocence, I think, iscalculated to make the point
that Tobit is a person who isnever just kind of pointing his
finger at his people and toutinghis own piety over against
(37:55):
their impiety, but ratherimplicates himself in the
history, the tragic history, ofhis people, and refuses to be
separated from them.
And that will set up then hisprayer of thanksgiving, as I
mentioned in chapter 13, wherehe'll have the same attitude
towards his salvation.
It's not for him, but thesalvation is meant to be a spur
(38:18):
to the people's salvation, whichis exactly what happens at
Christ's resurrection.
It's not about just him beingraised, but it's all of us being
raised with him.
So I think I love that part ofthe book of Tobit and I think it
, you know, comes at thatChristological theme and a
distinctively we might want tosay Old Testament from a
distinctively Old Testamentvantage point.
Joan (38:40):
We've lost, I think and maybe it's just the circles I
run in, but I think we've lost alot of that idea of corporate
like, of making atonement evenfor sins that might not be ours,
but just recognizing that weare all to blame.
I feel like and maybe it's theindividual, um, that triumph of
the individual that we find inAmerica, that, but it's.
It seems like a lot of timesit's us pointing fingers at
(39:01):
those people over there orthey've done something wrong,
rather than taking on that thatall of us are to blame, right?
And how do we then makeatonement for that?
How do we sacrifice for that?
How do we do works of charityfor that?
I feel like we've lost thatcorporate sense of we are all to
blame for the situation we'rein.
It's not that person over there, would you agree?
Dr. Gary Anderson (39:24):
No, I think that's exactly right.
I guess if I was to quote youknow Benedict again in his
encyclical Space Solve, he'sSaved by Hope he addresses
specifically that notion ofthinking of salvation in an
overly individualistic frame ofmind, that when we conceive of
salvation within the Christianchurch, our thoughts should
(39:45):
definitely, you know, ofsalvation within the Christian
church.
Our thoughts should definitely,you know, tend towards the
corporate element, and it'scertainly one of the reasons
that informs the piety ofpurgatory, of praying for family
members, et cetera, and askingfamily members to pray for us,
because our salvation is neversimply that of an autonomous
individual, but an individuallinked to all those you know
around us, but an individuallinked to all those around us.
(40:08):
And yeah, de Lubac, I knowRatzinger, pope Benedict also
cites on this score there are, Ithink, rich Catholic resources
for recovering this notion ofsin is corporate and salvation
is corporate.
I mean, it's not to dismiss theindividual part, for certain,
but I think the individual parthas been so overly, you know,
(40:32):
emphasized that recovery of thecorporate element is, you know,
important.
Joan (40:36):
You know hope for the church, yeah, yeah, we are the
body of Christ and we are manymembers, but we are one Right.
I think of.
You know John Paul II in theyear 2000 asking forgiveness for
the sins of the church and hewent back and he asked for the
forgiveness you know,forgiveness of sins.
He personally hadn't committedright, but as Peter he's asking
for this kind of corporateforgiveness from the Lord and
(40:59):
from those we had hurt, and soto recover that.
And it reminds me of pilgrimagethat we are not on pilgrimage
alone.
Even those people who may likestrike out on the Camino all by
themselves, they quickly findcompanions, and that's the
pilgrimage of life too.
We don't have to do this alone.
That's the beauty of the church, that we are on this in via.
Dr. Gary Anderson (41:20):
It's not an individual solo in via, but that
we are in this together, and alot of people who go on
pilgrimage also will contacttheir friends in advance and ask
them for prayer.
Prayer requests absolutely sothat on via they can you know
again kind of like tobit,leverage their own piety here to
the benefit of those beyondthemselves.
Joan (41:38):
Yeah, absolutely, and I know at versa we always pray for
our pilgrims by name, actuallybefore they go.
Knowing, knowing and afterknowing that that's the best way
we can accompany someone isspiritually so great.
Well, thank you very much, gary.
I appreciate the time, Iappreciate the conversation
about Tobit and listeners.
Thanks for listening, and Iencourage you to share this
episode, maybe with someone whois in via, as we all are, but
(42:02):
also someone who might beinterested in the Old Testament,
interested in the book of Tobit, maybe has never read the book
of Tobit.
But share this episode, followus and tune in next time.
God bless, thank you.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're navigating
the pilgrimage of life.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
I'm joined today by Dr GaryAnderson, the Hesburgh Professor
of Catholic Thought at theUniversity of Notre Dame.
His specialization is theHebrew Bible, the Old Testament,
(00:41):
and in today's conversation wetackle the book of Tobit as a
story of pilgrimage and life inVia.
Well, good morning Gary, goodmorning to you.
Dr. Gary Anderson (00:53):
Joan, how are you?
Joan (00:54):
today.
Dr. Gary Anderson (00:54):
It's a great morning, weather's good.
I'm happy.
Joan (00:57):
Yeah, it's always good when we have good weather in
South Bend.
You know like it may be few andfar between, but when it's nice
it's nice, right.
The summers are great.
Dr. Gary Anderson (01:07):
I regret that the students don't get to enjoy
this.
They spend most of theiracademic year and when South
Bend's the worst.
Joan (01:12):
Yeah, graduation weekend is always gorgeous, and then
they go on their way, right?
Dr. Gary Anderson (01:17):
That's exactly right.
Joan (01:18):
So we're talking about South Bend because Dr Anderson
teaches at the University ofNotre Dame.
Why don't you tell ourlisteners a little bit about
yourself?
Dr. Gary Anderson (01:27):
So my area of academic specialization is the
Bible, specifically the OldTestament.
I studied, received my PhD atHarvard University and I've been
very fortunate in teaching atvery good institutions.
I started out at the Universityof Virginia and then moved back
to Harvard, where I was, butthen, happily in 2003, I think
(01:52):
it was I was, you know, given ajob at Notre Dame and took that
in a heartbeat and have beenhere for almost 20 years now or
actually 20, a little over 20years, and it's been fantastic.
I love teaching here.
Joan (02:04):
Yeah, I would imagine that the students at Notre Dame,
while we do have a very diversestudent body and not everyone's
Catholic obviously is itdifferent teaching the Old
Testament at the University ofVirginia versus Notre Dame?
How is that compared in yourmind?
Dr. Gary Anderson (02:21):
It is, but maybe for reasons that might
surprise some listeners, I think, and surprised me as well.
When I arrived here Iimmediately began teaching our
required theology course forfirst-year students, which I
love doing.
I've taught it the entire timeI've been here.
But I had taught nearly 20years before I arrived at Notre
(02:42):
Dame but never took a coursethat wasn't an elective for the
student in question.
So whenever I walked in theclassroom I knew all the
students in there had chosen tobe there.
But it was a little bit of asurprise to walk into a
classroom where almost no onechose to be there and some would
have rather been in a differentclass if they could have chosen
(03:04):
freely, would have rather beenin a different class if they
could have chosen freely.
So initially I had to kind ofadjust my teaching style to that
audience.
But over my time at Notre DameI've come to really love that.
It's a challenge and my goalalways every semester is to have
I of course can never achieve100% unanimity, but to get as
many students as possible onboard with the notion that this
(03:26):
is a course they should havechosen.
Could they have had thatopportunity.
But I would say that was a bigmental adjustment to walk into a
room of suspicious students.
Joan (03:36):
Yes, yeah, and that's exactly probably the opposite of
what one would expect thatanswer to be, right, Like, oh, I
teach at Notre Dame and so allthe Catholics know the Old
Testament.
Yeah, right, Right, and so it's.
It's a.
That was almost the flip.
Right that you're coming inhere and you're almost having to
prove your course in a sense.
Dr. Gary Anderson (03:51):
Yeah, very much a flip and of course you
have, you know, resistance froma number of different angles.
I mean, some students were verygood and observant Catholics
but, you know, felt that theyhad taken theology from
kindergarten through high schooland they were ready to move on.
I mean, I can understand that.
But then other students, youknow, were in their period of
rebellion against parents,family and religion, and so from
(04:15):
day one they were, you know,dead set against anything I
would say.
So, yeah, there's a, but thenyou know there are always
students, of course, who areeager for good theological
preparation as well.
I mean that goes without saying, but that's definitely not, you
know, the only attitude youfind when you enter into a
classroom here.
Joan (04:34):
Sure, that first attitude of like well, I took this in
high school, or you know, I wentto Catholic high school and so
now I'm done.
I worked at a diocese for manyyears and with adult formation
we always came across that,right, like I don't.
Well, I went to Catholic school, I know everything and I'm like
no accountant would say that nodoctor would say that Right,
Like I took math in high school,I know everything.
Right that this ongoing idea oflearning in our faith for some
(04:58):
reason gets lost, sometimes withCatholics, like I don't need to
look at religion, I don't needbecause I took it once.
Dr. Gary Anderson (05:04):
Right, I think that's true.
I think you know I'm no experton this, but my sense is that
when you take theology in highschool, it's definitely not at
the intellectual level of yourother courses.
And so students, I think youknow, are generally pleasantly
surprised to see, when they cometo a theology course at Notre
(05:25):
Dame, that the faculty you knowhave the same kind of
credentials that all the otherfaculty at the university do and
that the approach to thematerial is intellectually
serious and rigorous.
Yes, and you know it went overa lot of students on that,
because if theology is justpiety, I mean that's fine if you
believe.
But even people who believe, Ithink, want a deeper kind of
(05:48):
root structure to what theybelieve, and I think that's the
advantage of a well-taughtacademic theology course is that
you can see there are veryclear and reasons that one can
articulate for why one wouldremain in the Catholic Church
Well, that's putting itnegatively, of course, but why
(06:10):
one could thrive within theCatholic Church.
Joan (06:13):
Yeah, yeah.
If we don't raise our theologycourses to the same level of our
other academics, we send outthis message that you know it's
just for nice little old ladiesto pray the rosary at Mass and
we lose the Augustans and theThomas Aquinas and the great.
Like we have the great Westernintellectual tradition, but how
often we fail to kind of passthat on to our kids.
(06:34):
So like your high school mayhave a great biology program but
no, you know, theology program.
Dr. Gary Anderson (06:39):
So there's no AP class in theology, and
that's a shame.
When you think about it, it isa shame.
There definitely could be APtheology.
You could read the Summa thatwould give students a real run
for their money yeah.
Joan (06:53):
Yeah, I love it and this does actually, I think, connect
to this whole theme of thispodcast in VIA, that we are all
on this journey.
We are all on this pilgrimageof life and the intellectual I
think, um, the intellectualsearch is part of that.
That.
You know, you are a differentperson in college than you were
in high school and you'll be adifferent person later the same
person, of course, but thatgrowth in our spiritual life, in
(07:15):
our intellectual life, thatlife is a journey and it's not
stagnant, and the spiritual life, the intellectual life, is part
of that journey.
Um, I was excited, um, I askedDr Anderson, you know, would he
like to talk about, you know,pilgrimage in the Old Testament
or what connected to the OldTestament would he like to talk
about?
And he specifically talked aboutthe idea of invia, about being
(07:37):
on the way on this journey, andconnected it to the book of
Tobit.
So that's going to be our topictoday is the book of Tobit.
I was thrilled because I loveTobit.
I think it's a very accessiblebook because it's so short and
it's a great story.
So I've heard through thegrapevine that you really love
the book of Tobit.
I told someone we're going totalk about Tobit and they said
that doesn't surprise me at all,he loves Tobit.
(07:58):
What drew you really to lovethe book of Tobit in all your
Old Testament studies?
Dr. Gary Anderson (08:02):
That's a great question.
I don't know if I can answerthat because it certainly was an
affection that came upon melate, but I had, I'd say,
multiple points of origin.
But I tried to guess and thispoint would be a guess.
It was when I wrote my book onthe subject of charity.
I turned to Tobit because Tobit, of course, distinguishes
(08:25):
himself through what Catholicswould call the works of charity.
I turn to Tobit because Tobit,of course, distinguishes himself
through what Catholics wouldcall the works of corporal mercy
burying the dead, feeding thehungry, you know, giving water
to the thirsty, basically thevirtues you see in Matthew 25,
you know the criteria that willbe used at the final judgment
for all of us, which isbasically concern for the poor,
(08:50):
and I think many Christiansthink that that, you know, is
the kind of distinctive orunique teaching of Jesus, which
at one level it is, but atanother level, everything you
know Jesus has to say there inMatthew 25 and actually about
charity throughout the NewTestament, has already been
anticipated in the old and inparticular in the book of Tobit.
So I'd say that's really whatyou know drew me to the book.
Also, it has a kind of very muchyou might want to say a Joban
(09:16):
atmosphere.
It's like the book of Job.
In other words, tobit is a manof extraordinary piety, but he's
punished for his piety.
Punished might not be the rightword, but he's tried, let's say
, for his piety.
Struck blind, loses all of hismoney, looks like he's going to
die without grandchildren.
(09:37):
Everything looks very grim.
But then in the end of courseit all turns around as it does
for Job.
But it's important to realizethat the heart of the book or
the center of the book, itcertainly doesn't look like it
will all turn around for Tobitand he's resigned himself to a
tragic early death and sets inmotion what he believes is the
(10:00):
last trip of his son and willend his life as well.
But happily for Tobit itdoesn't turn out that way.
Joan (10:07):
Yes, and I think some of our listeners may be not
familiar with the book.
It's kind of a unique bookwhere it's not in the historical
.
You know you don't find it aspart of like the Exodus Genesis
story.
Right, he's not a prophet, youknow?
Like you said, it kind of fitswith Job, I think, and Judith.
But many of our listeners mightnot be familiar with the story
because it isn't found inProtestant Bibles.
(10:30):
Can you give us like a littlecrash course on the story for
people who might not know thestory?
You've already begun.
Dr. Gary Anderson (10:40):
So, Tobit, I mean formally, it's very similar
, I would say, to the book ofDaniel in the sense that both of
those books their literarysetting is roughly the third
century, you know, bc, about acouple of hundred years before
the birth of Christ.
But their literary setting isfar earlier, in the 8th century
(11:08):
BCE, the period in which thenorthern kingdom of Israel is
overrun by the Assyrians and allof the northerners then are
sent into exile.
Daniel picks up basically thesame theme, but a couple of
hundred years later, when theBabylonians invade and then take
all of the Israelites who livein the south we know as Judeans
and exiles them to Babylon.
(11:28):
So both books are exploring thenotion of exile and hope for
return.
That really links to your Enviatheme because they both situate
themselves within the historyof the people of Israel, in
which they're exiled from theirland but yearning for return and
restoration, and that's verymuch the background of Tobit.
(11:52):
So Tobit takes that theme ofexile and hoped for return from
the vantage point of theAssyrian exile in the 8th
century and Daniel takes thattheme of exile and hoped for
return in the period of theBabylonian conquest.
Joan (12:13):
Yeah, I love this idea of that because Toba is a book of
charity, right, we see thoseacts of charity and Raphael says
, like go and give alms, right,this idea of charity even in an
exile, right, I mean, I think wecan get like down about like oh
well, the culture's notCatholic, and so I'm just going
to go like woe is me, like no,look like Tobit did what he was
(12:34):
supposed to do, even surroundedby suffering, right, even when
he continues to suffer.
This idea that charity neverstops, like we're called to love
everyone, we're called to docharity even in exile, and so I
place that in that context,that's exactly right.
Dr. Gary Anderson (12:49):
I think one of the key themes in the book of
Tobit is the way in which thecharitable impulse replaces
replaces perhaps not the exact,exactly correct word parallels,
we might want to say theobligation to bring sacrifices
to the temple.
So charity develops this strong.
You know what I callsacramental sense.
(13:09):
It is definitely about, youknow, making a better world,
correcting injustices for thepoor, etc.
That's all there.
But it's more than that.
It's really about the worshipof God, and that also overlaps
with what happens within earlyChristianity as well.
I mean, one of my favoritequotes of St John Chrysostom is
(13:30):
after, you know, celebrating themass, he tells his congregants
to go out into the streets ofAntioch and meet the many living
altars there.
That means all the poor peoplein the street.
They're all ways ofencountering Christ.
So that's an important thing torealize that charity is, more
than you know, a social justicemovement, and I have nothing
(13:51):
against social justice.
It is that.
But it's a social justicemovement grounded in a kind of a
very unique form of Christology.
But that's also anticipated inTobit not the Christological
element, but the notion thatone's obligation to the poor is
inseparable from one'sobligation to God, and you can
(14:14):
see that in the very first bookof first chapter, I'm sorry of
Tobit, in which his virtues areinitially displayed in the
extraordinary fidelity he has tothe temple in Jerusalem.
But then, of course, thattemple is going to be destroyed,
and so the author immediatelypicks up with Tobit, now in
(14:34):
exile, acting charitably towardsthose around him, and that
parallelism is, you know, a verypointed and intentional aspect
of the book.
He can no longer worship at thetemple, of course in Assyria,
but he can do the next bestthing, which is to serve God
(14:54):
through his acts of mercy to thepoor.
Joan (14:56):
Wow, and it makes me think about how the temple obviously
was central to the Jews.
It gave them their identity ina lot of ways.
Right, their identity came fromthe Sabbath and from temple
worship.
And when that's taken away andwe see this especially after the
temple destruction in 70 ADthey have to figure out what is
a Jew without a temple?
Right?
But then it reminds me that weare known as Christians by our
(15:20):
love.
That, like, what should give usour identity?
Sure, the Eucharist and thesacrifice of the mass, but, but,
but.
It's very clearly in the NewTestament.
They will know you're mydisciples because you love one
another, and so that charitybeing that defining factor for
us of love of neighbor, not justfor the sake of loving neighbor
, but through then loving theLord sake of loving neighbor but
(15:42):
through then loving the Lord.
Dr. Gary Anderson (15:43):
Yeah, there, I think the document I love to
use in teaching that brings out,you know, the insight you
wonderfully brought up, is DeusCaritas Est of Benedict XVI God
is Love where he makes it quiteclear that, you know, a
Eucharist that doesn't, you know, open up into service of the
poor is a I can't remember hisword not improper, but certainly
a fractured or partialcelebration of the sacrament.
(16:06):
And he has a great quote, youknow, in that same section I
believe it's paragraphs 13 to 18, somewhere in that range where
he says that Mother Teresa'sexperience of the Eucharist was
enriched by her service to thepoor, and her service to the
poor correlatively enriched hercelebration of the Eucharist.
(16:28):
In other words, these kind ofvectors go both ways, and that's
an important thing to bear inmind, because what is the
Eucharist?
It's Christ offering his lifeto us.
And what is charity?
Charity is offering, you know,what we value, our material
possessions, but giving them toothers.
So I mean, in the Christianunderstanding, the charitable
(16:49):
act is deeply, you know,cruciform in that sense.
Joan (16:53):
Yeah, we just came off of the Eucharistic Congress in DC
and one of the talks talkedabout the two lungs of, like
breathing in of the worship ofthe Lord and then breathing out
service to the poor.
And if you only have one, if youdon't, if you only breathe in,
you're going to die.
If you only breathe out, you'regoing to die.
And so that this, this parallelI thought that was a beautiful
(17:13):
image of this, this parallel,like of loving the Lord through
the neighbor.
And it's not just either or,but, it has to be both.
Dr. Gary Anderson (17:20):
and yeah, I think that's at the heart of
what Deus Caritas est wishes tosay, and I think that's exactly
right yeah.
Joan (17:29):
Well, looking back at Tobit, we actually have a
journey of an actual kind ofpilgrimage that Tobit's son
takes with Archangel Raphael.
It's where we find theArchangel Raphael in scripture
in the book of Tobit, so youcould talk.
Could you talk a little bitabout that next part of the
story?
Dr. Gary Anderson (17:48):
So there's actually, if we're thinking
about pilgrimage in Tobit,there's, I think, two journeys
we would want to frame.
So that's one.
I'll get to that in a second.
But the chap book opens up, asI mentioned, with Tobit's, the
you know reciting of Tobit'sfulfillment of the obligation to
go and pilgrimage three times ayear to Jerusalem, and that's
(18:09):
the primary pilgrimage.
You know, theme within the OldTestament is the term in Hebrew,
is Allah or Aliyah, is the noun, verbal noun, to go up, to go
up to the city of Jerusalem toworship God at his holy mountain
.
And there are three occasionsduring the year in which the
religious Israelite, or now thereligious Jew, would be
(18:31):
obligated to do such Passover,pentecost and the Feast of
Booths, in the fall.
In the fall.
And we read in chapter one thatTobit, you know, is exemplary
among his peers as the only onein northern Israel who continues
to do this after the northernkingdom separates from the south
and establishes alternativeworship sites.
But Tobit is portrayed as a manof, you know, super erogatory
(18:56):
piety because of hiscontinuation to follow the
injunctions of the book ofDeuteronomy.
But more than that, it's alsoquite significant that Tobit
hails from the tribe of Naphtali, because if you look at a map,
if you go to the back of yourBibles, where you have maps,
you'll notice that Naphtali isin the far north, which means
his journey is of a considerabledistance.
(19:20):
I mean if he was located, forexample, in the tribe of
Benjamin, which is right nextdoor to Jerusalem, he'd
basically fall out of bed.
And he's there.
But that's not how the booksets up the story.
Tobit is from the far north, sothis journey, this pilgrimage
that he makes, that exemplifieshis virtuosity, is something
that comes at great cost to hisperson.
(19:42):
Now the book is framed by thatstory of his going up to
Jerusalem.
But the book ends in part inchapter 13, with the famous song
of thanksgiving of Tobit, inwhich he not only thanks God for
restoring him from death tolife, from being blind to having
sight, from only one child tonow a married child with many
(20:06):
grandchildren.
All of these are exemplary inthe Old Testament of going from
death to life.
We can see that in the NewTestament too.
The story of the prodigal sontalks about the son going from I
was dead, but now I'm alive, oryou were dead.
I can't remember if the fathermight say that, but that's very
much the movement in Tobit.
But Tobit uses that occasionnot simply to celebrate what God
(20:29):
did for him but to use, as itwere, that action of God on his
behalf as leverage for thepeople Israel.
So his concerns aren't justabout himself or his immediate
family, but his entire people,and he expresses that with the
hope that Jerusalem will berebuilt and that Jerusalem will
reflect the promises made tothis city in the second half of
(20:51):
the prophet Isaiah.
So if you look at Tobit 13,you'll see that he's channeling
some of the more extraordinarypromises made to Jerusalem in
the prophet Isaiah.
But all of that's very importantbecause we have to remember
that Tobit, as I mentioned, iswritten in the second century,
when actually the temple isrebuilt.
But what's very important forJudaism in this period is,
(21:13):
though they celebrate thattemple that's within Jerusalem,
they realize, because of thenature of biblical promises,
that God has promised an evenbigger and better temple.
So even though they're makingpilgrimage to Jerusalem in the
time in which the book of Tobitis written, they're still
expecting more.
So they are still in via, right, they haven't arrived.
(21:36):
That's a very important featureof the book.
It's a kind of already in part.
Yes, the second temple has beenbuilt, but not yet the full
expectation of what God intendsto bring about is still awaited.
So this theme of Jerusalem andthe notion of being in via and
the rebuilding of Jerusalem allof which, of course, is in the
(21:57):
background in the book ofRevelation, and Christian
eschatology as well, is a deeppart of the book.
So that's the frame, so that'sa very important element of
travel, and we might want to saypilgrimage within the book of
Tobit.
But then really the heart ofthe book is what you mentioned
in terms of the plot line ofTobit's own life, which is
(22:18):
sending his son, tobias, on whatappears to be, at least in the
frame of the book, a dangerousjourney to recover funds that
Tobit has left on deposit.
The book never says why Tobiashas to go and do this.
In fact, tobit's wife is quiteangry at sending the son on this
(22:43):
perilous journey.
Joan (22:44):
She's kind of an angry woman in this book, isn't she I?
Dr. Gary Anderson (22:47):
think she's justified, though I mean, I
think most of us wouldsympathize with that.
They only have one son left.
Why risk everything on a tripthat seems so dangerous?
Of course he's beingaccompanied, as you mentioned,
by the archangel Raphael, butthey don't know that he's just a
guy an ordinary citizen.
So why entrust your onlyremaining son to a stranger?
(23:11):
But that's of course a riskthat Tobit assumes.
That pays off spectacularly inways they could never have
foreseen.
They're imagining, or Tobit'simagining he's going to retrieve
the money he left on deposit.
But he finds a far moreimportant goal or aim as he
(23:33):
embarks on this journey when hemeets his future wife, who also
is suffering for her piety aswell your wife, who also is
suffering for her piety as well.
All of her husbands are put todeath when they enter the
wedding canopy, so she seems tobe damaged goods.
I think that's an importantpart of the story as well,
because when Tobias decides togo through with that marriage
(23:57):
and consummate the marriage, ofcourse on his wedding night, he
has to know full well that thisnight hasn't ended well for all
the previous suitors.
So it's a risk on his behalf.
And in fact one of the kind ofcomic moments in the book is his
father-in-law is out digging agrave.
That's my favorite part, Ithink.
Yeah it's an incredible moment.
I mean, he's just convinced thisis the end, but it doesn't
(24:22):
prove to be the end they survivetheir wedding night and then,
very importantly for the book,he not only survives, they marry
and they eventually have manychildren.
So that can allow the book toend in what I like to call the
kind of Old Testamentperspective on resurrection or
beatific vision how to charmedor beatified characters end
(24:46):
their life.
In the Bible they usually endtheir life with their children,
grandchildren and sometimes evengreat grandchildren gathered
around them.
That was true for Jacob Abrahamin the book of Genesis.
It's true for Job veryimportant element of the book of
Job that when he dies all ofhis family is around him, and
the same thing then of coursehappens for Tobit.
(25:07):
That really is the sign that helived a graced life, but that
didn't seem to be in the cardsin chapter four, and it was that
risky journey that his sonembarks on that made all of that
possible.
Joan (25:23):
There's a passage that I love, a chapter um, where
Tobit's praying and we have thistemptation to even end his life
, like he asks the Lord, like,take me right, like, why am I?
And then we have this parallelimage with um, with, with Sarah,
sarah, yes, yeah, sarah,praying the same thing because
she's been insulted by her maid.
You know, um, she's not beensuccessful, all her husbands
(25:44):
have died, and on the weddingnight, very dramatically, and um
, and that, that, like, the Lordhears their prayer at the same
time, right, and this idea that,um, they're, in a sense, the
world would look at them asdamaged goods, like you said,
right, like he's a blind old manthat you know what has he what?
What reward has his pietygotten him?
But suffering, right, and sheapparently is faithful, but
(26:08):
she's been cursed by this demon,right, that has killed her
husband.
And so this willingness just tocry out to the Lord, to put
ourselves in his hands, and theLord rewards that prayer greatly
, like more than they couldprobably ever imagine.
And it just gives me so muchhope that we are all in the
middle of our stories.
Right, we're in the middle ofthe story, we're not at the end
(26:29):
of the story and to never giveup that prayer and to never give
up on others that never judgethose damaged goods, because the
Lord is still working in theirlives.
Dr. Gary Anderson (26:39):
No, that's very true, and I think I mean I
mentioned the Jobin element.
I think it's a key theme in thebook of Tobit and we, you know,
one of the ways in which we canmeasure Tobit's virtue is by
the fact that he retains hisfaithfulness to God and to the
moral life, the moral lifestructured by charity, even
(27:00):
though not only is it notrewarded but, you know, it seems
to be from all externalcircumstance punished.
So it makes, you know, hisvirtuosity, you know, all the
more stellar and reallysupernatural.
You know, augustine, one of myfavorite lines from Augustine on
the book of Tobit is that youknow he said that Tobit had to
(27:21):
see the world through asupernatural light.
You, know, even though he wasblind, he clearly saw, or
retained, a notion of God'sgoodness through it all, which
is you know.
Yes, I think it's one of themore spectacular features of the
book.
Joan (27:36):
Yeah, that faithfulness.
And it is a book of greatadventure, right?
I mean, it seems to bedangerous.
They get attacked by a largefish.
I mean, there's this like crazyscene where this fish I mean,
there's this like crazy scenewhere this fish I think the
translation varies and whatexactly came out of the water,
but then they kill it and thatends up being a source of
healing for Tobit's blindness,which is it's just.
Dr. Gary Anderson (27:58):
There's all these fantastic elements in the
story, yeah, that like kind oflife threatening moment.
And you're right, One of thethings that's actually a
challenge for Tobit is that thetext is very unstable.
So there's a couple of Greektranslations, for example, that
scholars refer to when they'retrying to reconstruct the text
of Tobit, and then you haveseveral Latin versions and
(28:21):
versions in other languages aswell.
At Qumran we have probablyremnants you know remnants of
the Aramaic original, butthey're only remnants.
They're kind of scattered.
You know pieces.
So the story sometimes isdifficult to reconstruct.
I think of it as analogous to daVinci's painting the Last
Supper, which was marred by.
(28:43):
They eventually built a doorthat wiped out Christ's feet,
for example.
So scholars that work on thatpainting have to rely to a
degree on early drawings of youknow other artists who love the
painting, because those are ourrecords of how it might have
really looked.
And in a sense with Tobit it'sthe same thing.
(29:03):
We have all of these differentversions looked and in a sense
with Tobit it's the same thing.
We have all of these differentversions.
We have to take guesses as towhat the original might have
looked like.
I mean I shouldn't overstatethe matter.
I mean 90% of the plot line isquite clear but there are many
moments like the encounter withthe fish of course that are
somewhat more ambiguous.
But the encounter with the fishis extraordinary because it
(29:25):
actually provides the means ofsolving the two problems of the
book Sarah's, you know, abilityto marry and mother children,
but also the healing of Tobit'sblindness.
And the fish is the kind of keyingredient for both of those
problems.
Joan (29:45):
Can we see a spiritual meaning behind that of this?
Like I mean, is it just thisrandom thing that this fish
attacks them and then the liveris used to, you know, or can we?
Can we look into it as aspiritual, like once he was
willing to face death.
Then I don't know.
I I'm making this up as I goalong right now, but I just
(30:05):
think it's.
Is it just this randomoccurrence, or is there
something deeper there, wherethere's this encounter with
death that he, raphael, helpshim overcome and then out of
that comes healing, out of thatcomes resurrection for both
involved?
Dr. Gary Anderson (30:20):
That's an interesting suggestion.
I have to say I haven't thoughtabout it.
I have to say I haven't thoughtabout it, but I think the book
(30:48):
is very much up being not onlynot the end of him but actually
the restoration of the entirefamily, so that this, you know,
flirtation, we might want to saywith death, becomes the
occasion of a life-giving moment.
And in that sense the book, Ithink, is also deeply
Christological or we might wantto say, cruciform in character,
(31:09):
where the cross becomes not theend of a tragic life but
actually the occasion of thecelebration of a divine reward
for a life well-lived.
Joan (31:20):
And that's very much part of Tobit as well I was going to
ask do any of the church fathersor any biblical commentators
see this as a Christological,that the father sends the son
out on mission?
Right, the father sends hisonly son out, and then the son's
.
You know this great adventureof the son almost like the
incarnation then leads to thatrestoration.
(31:43):
That's a good question, I mean.
Dr. Gary Anderson (31:45):
I've written on that subject, but I'm not a
church father so that doesn'tcount so honestly, I've not
checked that out.
Perhaps I should have.
I mean, we don't have a lot ofcommentary on the book.
Among the church fathers wehave Ambrose, I think, has a
short commentary which I'velooked at but haven't carefully
(32:07):
studied, and then Cyprian alsocomments on the book, but I
don't remember that hehighlights that.
I think Cyprian's interest ismore on Tobit as a man of
charity and you know theparallels of Tobit to the New
Testament virtues were obviousto all of these writers and
(32:28):
that's typically where they wentthe focus.
Joan (32:31):
Yeah Well, this has been beautiful and I think it's given
us a lot of fruit for our ownprayer as we're looking at our
own lives in Via, as we'relooking at our own pilgrimage of
life.
Looking at our own pilgrimageof life, you know all these
themes of a life of charity, alife in exile.
You know resurrection out ofdeath, this idea of hope.
(32:52):
I think it really more than Iwas even expecting before we
started this conversation.
I think it speaks to us asChristians in via.
On the way, I have one questionthat I don't know whether it
has an answer to, but do youhave any insight as to the dog?
Dr. Gary Anderson (33:09):
No, everyone asks about the dog.
Joan (33:11):
It's quite surprising.
Dr. Gary Anderson (33:12):
It's an interesting little detail, it is
it appears twice when peopledraw.
We have, of course, artisticrenderings Rembrandt and the,
etc.
They'll often show the littledoggy as I say running along
with Tobias.
But it is quite surprisingbecause dogs don't have that
kind of cachet generally in theBible.
(33:34):
If anything they're you know,animals of you know less.
I don't want to saydisreputable, but certainly not
charming in the way we imaginethem.
But it is a very charminganimal in the book of Tobit and
I have no wisdom on that.
Joan (33:47):
I apologize.
No, I think it's somethingwe'll just wait in heaven and
ask.
You know, ask Tobit himself,like because, um, for those of
you who haven't read Tobit,there it's very clearly
mentioned like and the dog wentwith them and the, you know,
wasn't part doesn't seem to bepart of Jewish culture.
And so who is this little dog?
And, um, I mean I think now wecan look at Fido as a some.
(34:09):
You know the dog is a symbol offidelity, but that wouldn't
have been.
That would be reading somethingnow back into that.
Dr. Gary Anderson (34:16):
I think we want to resist that, but on the
other hand, I have no goodanswer.
So um, I guess any any answerwe suggest as a possibility.
Joan (34:24):
I love it.
Um there anything else youwould like to note about this
beautiful book, this rich book?
As we wrap up, Any finalthoughts or any last points?
Dr. Gary Anderson (34:39):
So I mean, I think one of the more profound
themes of the book and youalluded to it already is Tobit's
prayer in chapter three.
I've always viewed this also asdeeply Christological, because
what's surprising about it isit's a prayer of confession of
sin.
But we know from the beginningof the book of Tobit that Tobit
is, at least with respect towhat brought on the exile of the
northern kingdom, completelyinnocent of those sins.
(35:02):
And the first chapter of thebook is set out really to
demonstrate his innocence, butmore than innocence I would call
his supererogatory faith.
That is, a faith that goesbeyond any kind of normal
measurement in the way in which,descending from the tribe of
Naphtali, he engages faithfullyin the three pilgrimage
(35:25):
festivals and the reason forexiling the Northern Kingdom is
because they specifically didn'tdo that.
So chapter three is a bigshocker when we see Tobit, you
know, confess that sin.
But for me this is very similarto Jesus agreeing to
participate in John's baptism.
My colleague now passed away,sadly.
(35:47):
John Meyer, in his, you know,famous set of books on the
historical Jesus, you know,commented at great length on you
know Jesus' agreement toundergo John's baptism, which
was utilized by some scholars ina kind of anti-Christian sense.
Well, this is a baptism for theforgiveness of sins, jesus
willingly participates, ergo isa baptism for the forgiveness of
sins, jesus willinglyparticipates, ergo he must have
(36:09):
understood himself as a sinner,to which John Myers said well, I
mean, in a sense, that's a kindof you know logical syllogism.
That can't be, you know broken.
But what's wrong with it is thepresumption that confession of
sin in this period was theconfession of individual and
(36:29):
individual sins, whereas we knowthat confession of sin as
imagined by the John the Baptistis a confession of corporate
sin, of you know Israel'sdisobedience that led to her
exile.
And so when Jesus participateswithin that confession of sin,
(36:51):
what he's essentially doing mycolleague John Meyer argued is
demonstrating his fidelity andsolidarity with his people.
Right, that he doesn't seehimself as somehow holier than
thou and point his finger andsay, well, you're suffering
because you did this, but Ididn't do that, so I don't
suffer.
No, but that's not Jesus'sperson.
(37:13):
Jesus engages in radicalsolidarity with his people of
Israel and so can engage in thisconfession of sin, not because
he himself is a sinner, butbecause he loves his people.
And I think that's exactly howwe should read that prayer of
Tobit in chapter three, not thathe's the second person of the
Trinity and innocent in the wayJesus is.
(37:34):
I don't want to overstate thematter, but his confession of
sin, which initially appearssomewhat, you know, unusual,
given his innocence, I think, iscalculated to make the point
that Tobit is a person who isnever just kind of pointing his
finger at his people and toutinghis own piety over against
(37:55):
their impiety, but ratherimplicates himself in the
history, the tragic history, ofhis people, and refuses to be
separated from them.
And that will set up then hisprayer of thanksgiving, as I
mentioned in chapter 13, wherehe'll have the same attitude
towards his salvation.
It's not for him, but thesalvation is meant to be a spur
(38:18):
to the people's salvation, whichis exactly what happens at
Christ's resurrection.
It's not about just him beingraised, but it's all of us being
raised with him.
So I think I love that part ofthe book of Tobit and I think it
, you know, comes at thatChristological theme and a
distinctively we might want tosay Old Testament from a
distinctively Old Testamentvantage point.
Joan (38:40):
We've lost, I think and maybe it's just the circles I
run in, but I think we've lost alot of that idea of corporate
like, of making atonement evenfor sins that might not be ours,
but just recognizing that weare all to blame.
I feel like and maybe it's theindividual, um, that triumph of
the individual that we find inAmerica, that, but it's.
It seems like a lot of timesit's us pointing fingers at
(39:01):
those people over there orthey've done something wrong,
rather than taking on that thatall of us are to blame, right?
And how do we then makeatonement for that?
How do we sacrifice for that?
How do we do works of charityfor that?
I feel like we've lost thatcorporate sense of we are all to
blame for the situation we'rein.
It's not that person over there, would you agree?
Dr. Gary Anderson (39:24):
No, I think that's exactly right.
I guess if I was to quote youknow Benedict again in his
encyclical Space Solve, he'sSaved by Hope he addresses
specifically that notion ofthinking of salvation in an
overly individualistic frame ofmind, that when we conceive of
salvation within the Christianchurch, our thoughts should
(39:45):
definitely, you know, ofsalvation within the Christian
church.
Our thoughts should definitely,you know, tend towards the
corporate element, and it'scertainly one of the reasons
that informs the piety ofpurgatory, of praying for family
members, et cetera, and askingfamily members to pray for us,
because our salvation is neversimply that of an autonomous
individual, but an individuallinked to all those you know
around us, but an individuallinked to all those around us.
(40:08):
And yeah, de Lubac, I knowRatzinger, pope Benedict also
cites on this score there are, Ithink, rich Catholic resources
for recovering this notion ofsin is corporate and salvation
is corporate.
I mean, it's not to dismiss theindividual part, for certain,
but I think the individual parthas been so overly, you know,
(40:32):
emphasized that recovery of thecorporate element is, you know,
important.
Joan (40:36):
You know hope for the church, yeah, yeah, we are the
body of Christ and we are manymembers, but we are one Right.
I think of.
You know John Paul II in theyear 2000 asking forgiveness for
the sins of the church and hewent back and he asked for the
forgiveness you know,forgiveness of sins.
He personally hadn't committedright, but as Peter he's asking
for this kind of corporateforgiveness from the Lord and
(40:59):
from those we had hurt, and soto recover that.
And it reminds me of pilgrimagethat we are not on pilgrimage
alone.
Even those people who may likestrike out on the Camino all by
themselves, they quickly findcompanions, and that's the
pilgrimage of life too.
We don't have to do this alone.
That's the beauty of the church, that we are on this in via.
Dr. Gary Anderson (41:20):
It's not an individual solo in via, but that
we are in this together, and alot of people who go on
pilgrimage also will contacttheir friends in advance and ask
them for prayer.
Prayer requests absolutely sothat on via they can you know
again kind of like tobit,leverage their own piety here to
the benefit of those beyondthemselves.
Joan (41:38):
Yeah, absolutely, and I know at versa we always pray for
our pilgrims by name, actuallybefore they go.
Knowing, knowing and afterknowing that that's the best way
we can accompany someone isspiritually so great.
Well, thank you very much, gary.
I appreciate the time, Iappreciate the conversation
about Tobit and listeners.
Thanks for listening, and Iencourage you to share this
episode, maybe with someone whois in via, as we all are, but
(42:02):
also someone who might beinterested in the Old Testament,
interested in the book of Tobit, maybe has never read the book
of Tobit.
But share this episode, followus and tune in next time.
God bless, thank you.
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