April 22, 2025 • 39 mins
(While we recorded this episode prior to the Holy Father's death, the conversation remains relevant - especially our last reflection on Jubilee events without a Holy Father, so listen until the end!)
The Holy Doors are open, and pilgrims from around the world are discovering the transformative power of Rome's Jubilee Year. In this revealing conversation, Joan and Jenna share their firsthand impressions after multiple visits to the Eternal City during the early months of this extraordinary Holy Year.
Beginning with the intentionality of the pilgrimage path at St. Peter's, listeners will discover how to make crossing through a Holy Door a truly meaningful spiritual experience rather than just a tourist checkbox. Rome itself has undergone remarkable changes in preparation for this historic event. The creation of pedestrian-friendly zones like Piazza Pia, restoration work in major basilicas, and infrastructure improvements throughout the city haven't just made Rome more navigable—they symbolize the spiritual renovation the Jubilee invites in our own lives. What barriers need to be removed in your spiritual life? What paths need to be cleared to better welcome Christ?
Beyond practical advice, this episode explores the deeper meaning of being "Pilgrims of Hope" in a world hungry for authentic spiritual experiences. The special Jubilee events honoring different groups within the Church—from deacons to musicians—reveal how this Holy Year celebrates the diversity and unity of the universal Church. Even if summer crowds seem daunting, learn to view them as a visible sign of the Church's vibrant universality rather than an inconvenience.
Whether you're planning a pilgrimage to Rome or seeking to live the Jubilee spirit from home, this conversation offers practical wisdom, spiritual insights, and a contagious enthusiasm for this sacred time in the life of the Church. The invitation is clear: embrace hope, seek transformation, and discover how crossing thresholds—both physical and spiritual—can lead to profound renewal.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
In this episode, I chat with mycolleague, jenna, about the
events of the Jubilee.
Jenna's been twice I've beenonce and we talk about what it's
like to be in Rome during thistime, the special events
(00:43):
happening and the great gracesthat are being received during
this year.
Jenna, you were in Rome twicealready this year.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, I know it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I mean for someone who went to Rome for the first
time last year, in 2024, right.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, I'd never been to Rome in my entire life and
then was in Rome three times ina 365-day period.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I guess that's what the Jubilee does yeah and
working for a pilgrimage company?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not complaining.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So last year you were there to kind of scout stuff
out for the Jubilee, yes, andthen you went with two different
groups, three, three differentgroups.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
What sort of two different trips with multiple
groups on one of the trips yes,yeah, um, and then I was there
just are.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
We overlapped a little, yeah, for like two days.
Yeah, that was really fun.
So jenna was there in january.
We overlapped a little bit.
I was there in january, thenyou went back in february yep
about a month later okay, so, um, yeah, what?
So I guess overall impressionsYou'd been to Rome before the
Jubilee as they were gettingready.
What did you think when youarrived?
(01:49):
Were you surprised?
They were ready.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes and no.
I mean this sort of strikes meas a sort of thing where I mean
number one it's Italy, soeverything is last minute and
everything is slower thanintended and maybe not exactly
according to the original plan,but also it's the sort of event
that I don't know that you canever be ready for, right.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Like what does it mean to be ready?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Like, ok, so you finish X, y, z construction
project or you have all thesethings set up like, whether they
were ready or not, pilgrimswere going to come.
So I mean kudos to them forgetting some of the bigger
projects done, like some of therestoration in St Peter's, the
whole new Piazza Pia area downby.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
That's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, the river and Castello San Angelo Like that's
really, really good.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
The street from the Taviano Metro stop is now mostly
pedestrian only, which isreally lovely.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
There's a piazza in front of John Lateran.
That was not done when I wasthere.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, it was like half done.
Yeah, so they're trying to getit done for the summer.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, Supposedly, I think it's done.
I think I saw some fountainaction on Instagram.
Oh, okay, so it might be doneso you're right, though, like
how, and who defines when you'reready.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
You know, is it that all the construction projects
are done or that you know how tohandle a million people coming
in the summer?
There's always going to besomething.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, yeah, and you actually got to meet with Father
Francesco.
Yes, ahead of the Jubilee.
He's in charge.
He's just this nice littlediocesan priest who's basically
in charge of the Jubilee, andJenna got to meet with him and
he may have been a littlestressed last year, but you met
with him again this year and washe?
(03:26):
Did he seem just as stressed?
Yes, but also I think it'sgoing well.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, really well, and I think it's a I mean
honestly a huge privilege of therole that I'm in to get to go
and have those sorts ofconversations, and I mean to sit
in the same room as the peoplewho are the ones making the
decisions about, like, ok, whatevents are we doing for this and
what are we, how are we goingto set this up and what's going
to be included when you register, and all those sorts of things,
and to get to hear directlyfrom the source.
(03:53):
And I also think it's reallygratifying for them to talk to
us.
Like last year, when I had aconversation with this lovely
priest who's planning this wholeJubilee and I was saying like,
yeah, like, we have a ton ofpeople who are interested and
pilgrims are ready to come.
He just kind of looked at me.
He's like wait, people areactually excited.
I was like, yeah, people arereally excited about the Jubilee
and so I think it's good forthem to see that all of this
(04:16):
planning that has gone into thisevent for the past however many
years has really come intofruition and that there's actual
pilgrims who are excited tocome and be in Rome for this
incredible year.
And so, yeah, it's really um, Ithink that's honestly.
Those two meetings that we'vehad, I've gotten to have with
the committee itself have beensome of my favorite parts of
(04:37):
getting to go and travel to Rome, and both for the inspections
and for the pilgrimage itself.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, it's just really surreal.
I'm glad you know I wanted todo this conversation earlier and
I even wanted to do a lot ofmore prep.
You know, more prep work aheadof the Jubilee.
But it's kind of fun to talkabout it now, looking back at
having been, and now the worldis talking about the Jubilee in
a way that the world wasn't.
I distinctly remember sittingdown in August of 2023 telling
everybody on our team there'sthis thing coming up in 2025 and
(05:05):
we need to talk about it.
And people were like, oh okay,I'm like, yeah, we need to talk
about it.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, even last fall, you know, a lot of people
hadn't heard about the Jubilee.
We were still kind of talkinginto a void.
It seemed like saying likethere's this thing coming and
now lots of people are talkingabout it and it's, it's exciting
.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, and it's been cool to see how the Jubilee has
like, what that trickle downeffect has been like, and to see
people in their parishes andtheir schools and their
communities embrace the Jubileeas not just like.
Okay, yes, the Jubilee is aboutgoing on pilgrimage to Rome,
but I hear pilgrims of hope andI hear hope get talked about all
the time everywhere and I hear,like, what does it mean to be a
(05:41):
Jubilee year?
Like?
That shows up in differentsocial media posts and different
I've heard priests talk aboutit in their homilies and I think
that's really beautiful, thatit's become a part of the
conversation within the church,whether you're in Rome or not.
And I think I mean that's thepoint of the Jubilee year right
Is to like help draw us into,like thinking about and praying
with these ideas and making it,making it something that it it
(06:04):
does impact us and that it ispart of, like it should be the
center of attention, becausethat's the point, Right.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Right.
I mean I think I've been goingaround the country kind of
giving some talks on the Jubileeand more and more people it's
resonating Like they, they know,like this is for me, even
though I may not be going onpilgrimage like there's
something for the Jubilee evenif I'm not going to Rome, and it
is exciting to hear peopletalking about the virtue of hope
(06:31):
and and all of that.
Um, but yeah it it.
Pilgrimage is a huge part of it, but it's not the only part of
the Jubilee Right.
And there's something here forme, even if I can't go to Rome
and for the people who can go toRome, it's even now.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I mean, we in planning pilgrimages we knew
kind of throughout 2024, like no, the only people that were
interested in going to theJubilee last year were priests
and group leaders.
And they were coming to usbecause they had heard of they'd
either been to previousJubilees or knew about the
Jubilee and they were thinkingthey had the foresight to say
hey, I want to bring my parish,I want to bring my school, I
(07:03):
want to bring my group, whoever.
But a lot of these groups, Imean they didn't have people
registered because no one inthese parishes even knew what
the Jubilee was, but now we'restarting to see that those
people, those priests that didthink ahead, those group leaders
that were planning to bring agroup, lo and behold, the group
is there and they're doing it,and there's people and they're
(07:24):
excited, and so I think it'syeah.
Just the excitement aroundpilgrimage to Rome in particular
has been really, reallybeautiful, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, and it's interesting to see, like the
fall trips even that we'rehaving, maybe there are more
people signing up earlier onbecause they know about it,
whereas the early trips we hadto kind of tell people no, you
want to do this.
I can promise you this is goingto be worth it.
Yeah, um, so one of your tripswas a group of college students
and then the other trip was akind of combo.
Um, you know, what would?
(07:51):
What was your experience with,especially maybe the girls from
the from college?
Like, did they, did theyembrace it?
What'd they think?
Like, did you have any moments?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, so that pilgrimage was super interesting
because it was a choir and theywere singing in all these
beautiful churches around Romeand it was right at the
beginning of the Jubilee year.
So we got to Rome, I think,like the, I got there the 4th
and they got there the 5th ofJanuary or something like that,
so it had been less than threeweeks since the Holy Doors had
been open.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I mean St Paul's at the Walls wasn't even open yet
it, since the holy doors hadbeen open.
I mean St Paul's at the Wallswasn't even open yet it opened
while you were there.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah and we were literally at St Paul's at the
Walls the day after the holydoor opened, which is crazy and
also so because of how bigEpiphany is, just as a holiday
in Europe and in Italy.
So we showed up and it's stilllike Christmas season and then
that ended and Epiphany happenedand then people went back to
work and then it was just allvery new to everybody still, and
(08:47):
I think it was new but in areally exciting way, in a way of
like we're curious about this,like what is this thing and what
can we know more?
And so I think for that groupand for those pilgrims, they, to
be very honest, a lot of themwere like I don't know what this
is Like.
What is the Jubilee?
Like I don't know what this isLike.
What is the Jubilee?
Like I am here because I'm on awith my, I'm with my choir and
(09:08):
we came to sing Jubilee or not,but like, what is this?
And it wasn't any sort ofantagonistic feelings, it was
just curiosity, and I think thatturned into a lot of really
great conversations about whatthe Holy doors are and how
that's related to the Jubileeand what indulgences and all of
these different things, and bythe end of the week they were
all so excited about it by thetime we got to the Holy Door at
(09:29):
St Peter's Basilica, which wasthe last of the four major
basilicas that we got to visit.
It was so incredible and theygot it and they understood it
and they felt like they hadembraced the spirit of Jubilee
pilgrimage.
And all of them, at the end ofthe week, talked about how the
Holy Doors and how the Jubileehad made it so much better than
they were even anticipating,because they'd gone into this
(09:49):
pilgrimage to Italy with noexpectation that the Jubilee
would do anything for them, butthen they were able to live it
and be there and witness thisevent in the universal church
and that just made their tripeven better.
And so I think that was reallycool to witness, just going from
just like the general sentimentbeing like I have no idea what
this is, but tell me more to wow.
(10:10):
This is beautiful and I'm sohappy I'm here.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, it's neat because we both were there kind
(10:37):
of like, okay, let's see whathappens Like there were a lot of
questions that even we hadabout how registration to the
doors are going to work andsince we were there in kind of a
lower season, the registrationdidn't matter.
But we didn't know that right,and I loved the pilgrimage to
the door at St Peter's and howthey've set that up that you
(10:59):
actually like pilgrimage theygive you a cross, yeah.
Yeah, you pilgrimage up ViaCongelazione with a cross and,
like you get the right away towalk and to pray and they have a
prayer resource that you canpray.
And the girls in the choir sangthe way up, which I think is
incredible.
Like, what was that like?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
we were um on the pope's instagram at like a
minute one minute and 30something seconds buried in
something it's like a two secondclip.
But yeah, like that was really,really beautiful.
And I think the St Peter's Holydoor it's just so interesting,
because the St Peter's Holy dooryou have to register for.
I mean you have to register forall of them, but you register
(11:40):
for and they check yourregistration and they give you
this cross and they give youthese prayers and it's beautiful
and they have this wholesection of the street just for
pilgrims.
And so as we were, as the choirwas moving up this street and
singing the litany of the saintsand really approaching the
whole, it felt sacred and itfelt special and it felt set
apart and it felt like it was areally, just a really
(12:03):
grace-filled moment.
And I think that's the um.
Yeah, that's something that Ithink the Jubilee offers and I
think one of our group leadersactually recently said this.
But I think doing the holydoors and doing the Jubilee as
pilgrimage and pausing to prayand pausing to participate in
that is it's a way to witnessthat grace in an even more
(12:24):
powerful way.
Right, like those graces arethere, but how often, if just
like moving through our lives,it's like, okay, like here I am,
like I'm just walking throughthe holy door at St Peter's, but
if we don't stop to reallymeditate and pray and look
around and witness the ways thatthe Lord is at work, and so I
think that was something thatwas just a very, it was a
highlight of that pilgrimage.
I'm for all of those girls inparticular and um, it's
(12:48):
interesting though, because sothis was very, very early on and
so that was St Peter's, and youregister and it's all this very
formal process, and then you goto St Paul outside the walls,
or to St Mary Major and to StJohn's Ladder and anyone can
just stroll right through theHoly Door and there's I mean,
there's people there, but it'snot.
There's no formalized processbehind it, which in some senses
is great, because you get thelike there's less people, you
(13:11):
can take your time, you can likethat's honestly a huge perk,
and that also like those areholy doors too, saint.
There's this.
I think a lot of the, theconceptions can sometimes be
like oh, saint peter's,basilica's, holy doors better
holy doors, like no, it's just adifferent holy door but anyway.
so I came back from that and Iwas like joni we need to do
(13:33):
something about these other holydoors, because that moment at
St Peter's is so marked withthat prayerful atmosphere that
like we wanted to see thatpresent in the other ones as
well.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I was so glad you said that because it was our
.
Our chaplains stopped ourpilgrims beforehand and because
most people are just using thedoor as an entrance to the Mary
Major, right, yeah, like yousaid, like it's just the
entrance door and in St Peter'sit is too, but because of that
pilgrimage experience it'sreally set apart and so our
chaplains had to really like,stop the people and be like,
(14:04):
okay, wait, this is the holydoor, let's say a prayer
together.
So when you have that idea oflet's, you know, take this idea
from St Peter's, where you getthis little brochure and you
have a litany of saints and youhave a reading from St Paul and
you have really intentionalprayer for the Pope.
It was really fun to then thinkof how we could create that for
these other doors, because eachof them have a place where you
(14:24):
can stand.
You can't walk up viaControliant Santa, right, like
you can't.
But like St Paul's on the wallsis a perfect example, you can
gather at that beautiful statueof St Paul in the beautiful
courtyard and read from Paul,and I wrote a little litany of
St Paul and you know, writing alitany of Our Lady, like taking
from that litany of Loretto forSt Mary Major and writing the,
(14:46):
you know, invoking the differentapostles for John Lateran who
line the nave.
Like each of the basilicas havesuch a particular character
that it's easy to make a littlepilgrimage prayer, prayer
service in a sense, leading upto those holy doors, and so we
have those in the Verso booklets.
If you go on pilgrimage withVerso you get a pilgrimage
booklet before you leave.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
It's really a little book, it's a spiral bound book,
and so we've put those, thoseprayers both the prayers that
(15:34):
the Vatican has put together forthe pilgrimage to St Peter's
but then the ones we wrote forthese other three holy doors.
Seriously, not that we did stopand pray before them and all of
that, but to have anintentional, just moment of
pausing and gathering yourselvesas a group and praying along
together was so powerful and weprayed beforehand and then we
went through the doors andafterwards we gathered and we
prayed together again and it wasreally, really beautiful to see
(15:55):
that.
Yeah, I think like the one ofthe most common questions I hear
is like OK, so what's sospecial about a door Like?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
what is?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
it and you're like you just walk through it.
And it's like well, no, there'smore to it, and you, by taking
those steps to make it aprayerful pilgrimage, it was
really beautiful to witness theimpact that that had on our
pilgrims.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, it's a great example of in on a pilgrimage,
everything can impact you andthere's grace everywhere.
And yeah, you could be prepared.
Zero, right, you could not knowwhat you were about to see, you
could not know what you'reabout to expect.
Like you could have zeroexpectations, zero intentions
and just receive a ton of grace.
But if you are prepared and youdo enter in, god can work even
(16:37):
greater things.
And so it's a perfect exampleof, yeah, the Holy door can
really impact you, no matterwhat.
The like walking through thisthreshold, new beginning.
Like you could have anincredibly moving experience.
But if you do a littlepreparation or you prepare your
heart spiritually and reflect,god can do even more with it.
You know, yeah, so it's justit's.
I think it's a great example ofthat.
(16:58):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, um.
So when we went, it was kind ofoff season, which was really
nice, and it I don't want tobrag to people who are going to
be going this summer.
I mean, we're going this summertoo.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
We will be there this summer.
It'll be great.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Um, but you know, I think it was just even though it
was the off time and so wemaybe had a little bit more
ability to pray.
I saw a shot of via control atSione and the pilgrim path that
was just like packed with peoplea couple of weeks ago.
Like we walked up, likeactually my husband and I walked
up pretty much by ourselves inthe pilgrim path and like we
just kind of did it ourselvesand it was a great experience,
(17:36):
but now it was just like packedwith this huge group.
So people going now probablywill face a little bit more
crowds in the summer.
But even though we didn't havethe crowds, I still felt like
there was this feeling ofcamaraderie.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Oh, yeah, in pilgrimage.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And I think that's going to even be heightened this
summer.
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I mean, there's clearly something happening,
Like you go to Rome and theJubilee just like smacks you in
the face.
It's everywhere it's in an yes,it's on the billboards and it's
in the signs and you hearpeople talking about it and all
sorts of different places andyeah, it's like it's everywhere,
but it also it's I don't know.
It's like it's everywhere, butit also it's I don't know.
It's like kind of that.
There's just like a buzz in theair.
There's something that peopleare excited about and people are
(18:15):
happy to be there, and then, asyou get to closer to where
these major basilicas are, thatjust intensifies and it's really
beautiful and I think it's yeah, I don't know just seeing
people get excited aboutsomething and rallying around an
idea and a mission, and that'sit's just really, really nice to
(18:37):
see and that in itself isrejuvenating, right.
I think it takes pilgrimage toRome, which is beautiful no
matter what, and it adds thisadditional layer to it, and I
think it's a way that the cityhas come together and it's a way
that the people from around theworld it's a common experience
they've now shared when they'rethere, and it's yeah it's really
exciting the camaraderie.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know, I think it's a good reminder to us that
if you are going to Rome andit's crowded, and just to see
that as not a curse but ablessing that look at all these
people are that are coming, I'mpart of something bigger.
I've been in a lot ofinterviews.
I've been telling people like,think about it.
Like Christmas mass, you caneither like curse the people
that are in your pew becauseyou've never seen them before
(19:17):
and they're showing up forChristmas and you're like, dang
it.
You took my pew and my parkingspace and who are you?
Well, that would be one way toreact, right.
Another reaction would be we'reso glad you're here, right,
we'd love to see you next weektoo, right.
And so to say like, yeah, is itgoing to be crowded?
But I see so many people arelike, yeah, it's going to be
crowded and miserable.
Well, why don't we see this asactually a grace that people are
(19:38):
coming and that we're walkingthis together, like we're all
the pilgrims together?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And something that we've been telling our pilgrims
is that going to Rome during aJubilee year it's different than
a pilgrimage to Rome, rightLike.
Going to Rome not during theJubilee is a totally different
experience and that has its ownlike.
It's its own thing, right.
There's both pros and cons tothat and there's things that
you're going to get to do not inthe Jubilee that you're not
(20:03):
going to get to, right Like.
You can't do everything duringa Jubilee pilgrimage that you
could if it wasn't the Jubilee.
But vice versa is true, rightLike if you go on pilgrimage to
Rome two years from now, like noholy door, and so I think it's
understanding that this is notjust me going to Rome right it's
not just your kind of standardrun-of-the-mill Roman pilgrimage
, but it's a Jubilee Romanpilgrimage and so what comes
(20:26):
with that is, yes, the holydoors and all of that sort of
stuff, but also comes with itthat's the crowds and the people
and the just differentatmosphere in the city, and
that's part of the Jubileeitself and that's an exciting
thing.
And yeah, like you said itshould, it's all depends on your
mindset.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, I have to say, like thinking about Rome on a,
you know, for a Jubilee year.
There are certain pieces of artin Rome, there are certain
piazzas in Rome that we mightnot think of it now, but like
the fountains in Piazza Navonaare connected to a Jubilee year
and like we've kind of lost thatin history unless you're an art
historian.
But there's so much in Romethat's like, oh, this was done
(21:05):
for the Jubilee, or the Popecommissioned with for the
Jubilee, and now to be able tosay like, oh, that piazza pia,
which is at the end of theincantazione, you know, in 200
years people are just going totake that place for granted, but
somebody's going to say, youknow what, this was built for
the jubilee of 2025 and be likethat was our jubilee right.
That's the time when we werethere good, I have to say, I
think that's my favorite, uh,improvement in rome, and it's at
(21:27):
the end of the incantazioneusually there were there before.
There was this really busystreet before you get to Castel
San Angelo.
So if you walked from theBridge of the Angels and Castel
San Angelo and walk to StPeter's, you have to cross a
street, and so you have to stopat a stoplight.
It was really busy One time.
It was so crowded we couldn'tcross there, and so we tried to
cross somewhere else.
We ended up walking like threemiles out of our way, no joke,
(21:53):
because there were no crosswalksand it was crazy.
And so to have that now, piazzapia pedestrian, only you can
walk from castel san angelo allthe way to st peter's without
getting hit by a car, and I meanyou have to cross one little
street.
But it's such an improvement.
I just like stood there andmarveled at it.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, it's just the best and I think that I mean in
some way, right the j, theJubilee calls on Rome and it
calls on the church to thinkabout those things in a bigger
way.
Right, like if there was noJubilee, would they have ever
thought to do that?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
until I don't know, too many people got killed and
then be like, oh, maybe this isa problem.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
But and I think you can think about that both from a
like construction, improvementstandpoint but also it's a time
for us to reflect as a church onwhere we are as a church and
what is the Lord calling us tobe and what should we focus on.
And a lot of that comes fromthe guidance of the Holy Father
and his theme of pilgrims ofhope and, okay, like as the Holy
Father wants us to, pray abouthope and talk about hope and
(22:46):
think about hope, and so let'sdo it and let's embrace that as
a church, and I think that'swhat we have.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
The Jubilee is a reason for that to be the case.
Yeah, what improvements do weneed to make?
Yeah, right, like Rome madeimprovements to the
infrastructure, whatimprovements do I need to make
in my life?
What improvements do we need tomake in the church?
Yeah, how do we need to talkabout things differently,
exactly, and so, like, what isthe Jubilee calling us to?
Beyond?
You know what infrastructure,but then what like spiritual?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
growth and kick in the seat of the pants to eat
Exactly.
Yeah, I love that, yeah.
So, speaking of hope, you wrotea book about hope.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, I talked to him a little bit about it.
Well, did we talk about it inthe first episode?
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I don't know, the first episode was a long time
ago, um, but you wrote this bookand it was about hope and it
was using the Holy door at StPeter's Basilica, and it was
about hope.
And then you got to go and seethe Holy door at St Peter's
Basilica, which you had seen.
But you then got to walkthrough the Holy door at St
Peter's Basilica which you'dnever had the chance to do
before this year.
(23:43):
What was that like?
Like, I guess, like seriouslylike getting you.
So you got to Rome and yourvery first day there, that
afternoon, you and your husbandwent and did the St Peter's Holy
door very first day there thatafternoon you and your husband
went and did the St Peter's holydoor.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
How surreal was that?
It was pretty surreal.
It was funny because somebodyhad told me that I had walked
through it in the, the, theextraordinary Jubilee year of
mercy.
Yeah, I have no recollection ofit, I don't think I did, but
then even that's a sign right,that like I didn't, didn't think
about it, I did it withoutthinking I didn't, it didn't
impact me, so I don't think Idid.
I wrote in the book that Ididn't walk through it, so I
guess I lied if I walked throughit, but I have no recollection
of walking through it and so towalk through it and to and you
(24:20):
know you're kind of, you're notpushed through it, but there are
a lot of people and so youdon't get to just scenes to
write the book.
But it was surreal.
I even seeing the pope open thedoor at Christmas Eve.
Actually we were sitting in myparents living room and I was
watching the pope open the doorand I was just like that's my
(24:42):
door, like it's mine, like Ifelt so protective of it and I
was like yeah, no, no, it's not,it's not your door, it's my
door really really, really smallwriting at the very bottom
corner it says Joan Watson.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
It does, yeah it says copyright Joan Watson.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
But so you had to walk through it.
And now to hear people who havewalked through it and because
they've read the book, I hadsomebody Instagram message me
she was reading the book whileshe was inside St Peter's, like
she had walked through the doorand then she was reading
portions of the book, standingin there for like 20 minutes and
the guard was kind of lookingat her like what are you doing?
But that meant so much to methat, like her passing through
(25:18):
the door was a differentexperience because she read my
book.
Like that was very humbling.
But yeah, I can't wait to do itagain.
Actually, because there arecertain panels that I wanted to
look at and I didn't rememberbecause I was just so overcome
with the fact that this door washere and I was walking through
it.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, and it's real.
It's a culmination of a lot ofhard work and prayer and all of
that going into that, and Ithink it also.
I think that's so just abeautiful image to think of
someone actually reading yourbook while in St Peter's, and I
think it also speaks to justwhat we were saying earlier
about if you choose tointentionally reflect on these
(25:58):
things and intentionally praywith them, then you're going to
get so much out of it and it'sgoing to impact you in ways that
you otherwise wouldn't haveimagined.
And I think yeah, I thinkthat's what's really cool about
your book is that it's not justlike a history lesson on the
holy door, but it invites youinto that experience of the Holy
Door and makes it moreprayerful and makes it more
(26:20):
spiritually enriching.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, thank you, yeah , because I purposely didn't
want to write a book that wouldjust be like a stagnant history
of something or even like a artdescription of something, or
even like an art description.
I wanted it to be a way that,regardless of whether you go to
St Peter's, regardless ofwhether you ever see the door in
person, what is this doorcalling you to do?
It's not just about this dooris here and it was made in 1949.
(26:43):
Who cares?
What matters is what is Christcalling me, what does he want
from me?
I was really edified the groupyou went with in February, one
of the group leaders that reallymeant a lot too that it could
be used to prepare someone forpilgrimage.
Um, so when she said that, likeher, young adults recognize
(27:06):
panels from the door, and we'relike hey this is our panel.
Um, that that was.
That was awesome, like I justlove our good group leaders who
do a great job preparing theirpeople and we work with so many
of them and it's great.
I'm really grateful, reallygrateful.
Um, that trip that you were inin February was a little
different than the trips we wentin January, because when we
went in January it was justjubilee year and it was great
(27:28):
and we got to, you know, gothrough the holy doors and
experience Rome in the jubileeyear.
But when you went in February,there was actually a special
jubilee event going on yes, thejubilee for deacons, and so can
you?
Talk a little bit about what.
Does it mean that there's thisjubilee of deacons?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah.
So I think, um, I think people,what I've noticed in just like
talking to people is, after they, the first question, after like
wait, what is the jubilee?
And they get that figured outand they figure out the holy
doors, but then it's like, wait,so there's these jubilee events
and what does that mean?
But then if I go, if I'm notgoing for an event, is that
still a Jubilee pilgrimage andis the event like?
Is it all year and like, but soI think the whole year is the
(28:06):
Jubilee year, but there arespecific dates within that
calendar year that the churchhas decided to celebrate and
recognize and, uh, focus ondifferent groups within the
church.
There's all sorts of differentevents, whether it's deacons or
priests or educators ormusicians or you name it.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
There's probably a Jubilee Musical bands.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I really wanted to go for musical bands, I would go
for that one in a heartbeat.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
They're going to have like concerts in the piazzas
for musical bands?
Okay, I'm getting ahead ofourselves.
Okay, keep talking.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
But I think what number one?
What I think is beautiful aboutthat is that, just as the
Jubilee year is a year for thechurch to stop and celebrate and
focus on things that areimportant for us to focus on
that, the church is calling outand saying hey, we care about
you.
We care about you, deacons, wewant to recognize the
contributions that you make toour church, family and people
(28:58):
with disabilities.
We care about you, we value youas part of this community and
we want to celebrate that.
And catechists we care aboutyou.
We value you as part of thiscommunity and we want to
celebrate that.
And catechists we care aboutyou and we value you and we want
to celebrate that.
And I think that's beautiful.
And I think that, in a placewhere there's so many people who
, for one reason or another,feel like maybe the church
doesn't care about me, Maybe Ido all of these things and who
(29:20):
cares right?
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And whether, that's, they don't even see me.
Yes, they all of these things,and they who cares Right?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And whether that they don't even see me.
Yes, they don't even see me andI think there's a lot of
reasons that that might be thecase.
And yes, there are people thatthe church has overlooked over
the years, and even people whoare like in these ministries,
like deacons right, like theyhave a parish or a different
thing, a ministry that they'reshowing up to and they're giving
to the church, and it's stillcan like how many times did
(29:44):
people go home at the end of theday?
And they're like, okay, so likeI did the thing, but like now
what?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
and so what does?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
anyone care and?
I think that was a just being atthe Jubilee of Deacons was such
a beautiful witness to like wecare, yeah, and Deacons are
great and that's awesome and youmatter and you contribute so
much and we want to give youyour moment here because you're
that special to our church andthat was really, really
(30:11):
beautiful to witness.
And so the pilgrimage therewere like 25 of us and there
were only six deacons of that 25.
And so it was cool to see thosedeacons kind of became like the
mini celebrities of the group,right.
Like they got to go and sit upfront at all the events and they
had special things that werejust for them and they got to.
They felt like they were soimportant and so valued and to
(30:34):
be affirmed by these otherrandom pilgrims from the other
groups across the country thatthey'd never met and they were
like, hey, wow, these peoplecare about me and I get to be
here in Rome and Rome is openingits arms to me as a deacon.
That was really, reallybeautiful to witness.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So what kind of events, uh, did they go to?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, so they had a variety of different things.
Um, they had some catechesissessions, and so those were
broken up by language and theywere in different churches, kind
of around the Vatican area.
So that's one of the thingsthey went to.
They had a vigil prayer servicewhere all of the deacons
renewed their diaconal promises,which was beautiful, and so
(31:12):
they had different deacons givewitness talks from around the
world in different languages,and, yeah, everything was
multilingual at that point,which was really cool to see all
that come together.
(31:34):
And then the highlight of theweekend was mass in St Peter's
Basilica, not in the square, butin the basilica, where, with
all of these deacons that werethere, and then there were 13,
14, maybe that's the total,wrong number ordinations to the
diaconate there, which was, yeah, that was really special.
And it was also so interestingbecause this Jubilee happened
just after the Holy Father hadgone into the hospital, and so
everyone was like, oh, we'regoing to have mass with the Holy
(31:54):
Father, and the Holy Father isgoing to ordain these people
deacons and it's.
And then Pope Francis wasn'tthere.
And I think that was reallyinteresting because I think
there was this initial moment ofhesitation, of like wait a
second, like no Pope, is thisstill going to happen?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Are we still going to ?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
do this?
Does it still matter?
And then everyone was like waita second, yeah, like we're
going to make it happen and it'sgoing to be beautiful.
And Pope Francis might not havebeen physically present, but
his homily was read and like hewas there in spirit and it was a
really beautiful moment ofprayer for the Holy Father and
(32:30):
also just to come together andin spite of that, still all of
those graces were still superpresent and super.
I think it was just a reallyimpactful experience on everyone
.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I think it's interesting.
I heard from some people like,oh, the Jubilee is going to be
ruined if Pope Francis dies.
And like, first of all, that'sa lot of pressure to put on this
guy, right, don't die, you'llruin the Jubilee, um, but I
think it's actually a reallygood learning or teaching
experience or teaching lesson,whatever I want to say, because
the Jubilee is not about thePope Right, and going to Rome
isn't about the Pope right.
(32:59):
We I think so many people wantto go to Rome because they want
to see the Pope, as if that'sthe point, like he's a superstar
, celebrity and I mean, yeah,he's a rock star, whatever, but
that's not been the case of thechurch during the centuries.
Like the Jubilee is not aboutthe Pope, the Jubilee is about
going to St Peter's, praying atthe tomb of St Peter, receiving
the sacraments of confession andHoly Communion, like whether
(33:21):
the Pope's there or not.
In in 1350, the second Jubileeyear, the Pope didn't even live
in Rome.
And they they were like, hey,pope, call another Jubilee in
1350 so that you'll come home toRome.
And he's like, yeah, I'll calla Jubilee year, but I'm not
coming back, right.
So, our second Jubilee, the Popewasn't even there either, and
so I think it's a good reminderto us of where our faith
actually isn't in the man thePope Like.
(33:44):
He's great, he's a leader.
We love him.
He's a successor to St Peter,but that's not where I've put my
faith.
I've put my faith in ChristRight, and so it's a beautiful
reminder to us.
I think that do we want thePope healthy and good and holy
and wonderful?
Absolutely, but he's not the beall and end all of the Jubilee
year or even a pilgrimage toRome, yeah, and I think it was
(34:07):
beautiful to witness.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I mean, just, I think the Jubilee and like pilgrimage
does this and Rome does this,but the particular Jubilee,
pilgrimage, it's the universalchurch.
Right, and you are, we arethere as the body of Christ.
In that case, we were there asthe body of Christ to celebrate
and recognize these deacons, butwe are there together as the
body of Christ to be onpilgrimage and to be there for
(34:32):
the Jubilee and to receive thesegraces as a church family.
And I think, yes, the Pope isamazing and wonderful and when
he's part of that, that'sincredible.
But it was, I think I wasreally proud is the wrong word,
but I was really glad andgrateful that our pilgrims were
(34:52):
able to embrace that mindsetthat this is still something
really special, regardless ofwhether he's there or not.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, I love that, um , so you had some people and you
kind of mentioned this.
You had some people in thegroup that weren't deacons, um,
and they, you know, the deaconswere kind of the rock stars of
the group, which I think isreally dear.
That's awesome, because so manytimes I think deacons are those
unsung heroes in the church,right service.
(35:18):
But almost every permanentdeacon I know like totally has
this humble attitude of serviceand they just want to serve the
church and so often what they docompletely gets unnoticed by
most of us, right, um?
So I love the fact that theywere the star of the show.
But can you like, let's say, Iwant to go on pilgrimage and I'm
going to be there for thejubilee musical bands, but I'm
(35:40):
not in a musical band.
Or I want to go for the jubileeI just happen to be there for
the j Jubilee of musical bands,but I'm not in a musical band.
Or I want to go for the JubileeI just happened to be there for
the Jubilee of consecrated life, but I'm not obviously a
consecrated virgin Um, did thepeople who go, who went for the
Jubilee for deacons and weren'tdeacons, do they still?
I hate to use the phrase, butget something out of it, even
though they weren't deacons.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Absolutely For sure.
And I think yeah, there'ssomething about number one, I
think.
If the church has decided thatwe are going to have a Jubilee
of insert blank here, that meansthat some people in the church
have decided that this communityis contributing something to
the church and has something toteach us.
And so if you're there for theJubilee of prisoners or you're
(36:17):
there for the Jubilee of Marianspirituality or the Jubilee of
consecrated life or whatever itis, and you don't feel like you
fit into any of those categories, it's not like a closed off
event, it's anyone can go andanyone can be a part of it, and
everyone is invited intocelebrating and learning about
what role this group of peopleplays in the church and how do
(36:39):
they contribute to the church.
And I think that, for in thecase of the Jubilee of Deacons,
it was a yeah, it was beautifulto witness all of these
non-deacons, these lay peoplethat were there just embrace
deacons as something to becelebrated and to just honestly
(36:59):
to have the opportunity toparticipate in an event in Rome
of the universal church isunique and beautiful in and of
itself.
Right Like you could be there,whether you're there for a
Jubilee event or if it's acanonization or it's some sort
of thing to witness the, thecapital C church on display in
full form, drawing people in,drawing people together.
(37:21):
That's just such a powerfulexperience.
And then saying, okay, like, soit's deacons today and tomorrow
it's teenagers and next weekit's bishops or whoever it might
be that great, like, we'regoing to celebrate you.
And part of being part of thechurch is leaning into the
things that are the church andthe people that are the church
(37:42):
and getting to know them andbeing a part of that anyway,
yeah, I love that point of likeasking yourself okay, like I'm
here, what do these people haveto teach me?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
or what is their role and what is their charism and
vocation have to teach me, evenif that's not me, right, because
the church is a body of manyparts right and thank goodness,
we're not all ears or noses ortoes, right, because that would
be a weird body, right?
And so how can I receive thegraces of of encountering these
other parts?
Um, and what do they have toteach me?
(38:12):
I think that's really powerful.
So go Jubilee, go Jubilee, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Any last thoughts?
Go on pilgrimage.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
And that's the other thing is that even if you can't
go to rome, there are gracesattached to going on pilgrimage
here in the states too.
So you know, intentionally makea pilgrimage to your cathedral,
or we talked about this, Ithink, and I get everything
mixed up.
I think we talked about that inthe first episode of this, this
podcast about jubilee, aboutthe jubilee year, but um, but
yeah, so go on pilgrimagesomewhere yeah we'd love for you
(38:41):
to go on pilgrimage with Verso.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
But even if you can't do that, Go on pilgrimage and
if you can't even go onpilgrimage, then pray about hope
, that's right.
Think about hope and embracethat, because that's what the
church is doing this year andit's a beautiful thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Sounds great.
Well, thanks for chatting withme, jenna, of course, thanks for
having me.
Thanks, listeners, forlistening and remember to
subscribe and share and allthose good things, and stay
(39:22):
tuned for our next episode, aswe Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
dates and for more information.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
In this episode, I chat with mycolleague, jenna, about the
events of the Jubilee.
Jenna's been twice I've beenonce and we talk about what it's
like to be in Rome during thistime, the special events
(00:43):
happening and the great gracesthat are being received during
this year.
Jenna, you were in Rome twicealready this year.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, I know it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I mean for someone who went to Rome for the first
time last year, in 2024, right.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, I'd never been to Rome in my entire life and
then was in Rome three times ina 365-day period.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I guess that's what the Jubilee does yeah and
working for a pilgrimage company?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not complaining.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So last year you were there to kind of scout stuff
out for the Jubilee, yes, andthen you went with two different
groups, three, three differentgroups.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
What sort of two different trips with multiple
groups on one of the trips yes,yeah, um, and then I was there
just are.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
We overlapped a little, yeah, for like two days.
Yeah, that was really fun.
So jenna was there in january.
We overlapped a little bit.
I was there in january, thenyou went back in february yep
about a month later okay, so, um, yeah, what?
So I guess overall impressionsYou'd been to Rome before the
Jubilee as they were gettingready.
What did you think when youarrived?
(01:49):
Were you surprised?
They were ready.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes and no.
I mean this sort of strikes meas a sort of thing where I mean
number one it's Italy, soeverything is last minute and
everything is slower thanintended and maybe not exactly
according to the original plan,but also it's the sort of event
that I don't know that you canever be ready for, right.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Like what does it mean to be ready?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Like, ok, so you finish X, y, z construction
project or you have all thesethings set up like, whether they
were ready or not, pilgrimswere going to come.
So I mean kudos to them forgetting some of the bigger
projects done, like some of therestoration in St Peter's, the
whole new Piazza Pia area downby.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
That's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, the river and Castello San Angelo Like that's
really, really good.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
The street from the Taviano Metro stop is now mostly
pedestrian only, which isreally lovely.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
There's a piazza in front of John Lateran.
That was not done when I wasthere.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, it was like half done.
Yeah, so they're trying to getit done for the summer.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, Supposedly, I think it's done.
I think I saw some fountainaction on Instagram.
Oh, okay, so it might be doneso you're right, though, like
how, and who defines when you'reready.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
You know, is it that all the construction projects
are done or that you know how tohandle a million people coming
in the summer?
There's always going to besomething.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, yeah, and you actually got to meet with Father
Francesco.
Yes, ahead of the Jubilee.
He's in charge.
He's just this nice littlediocesan priest who's basically
in charge of the Jubilee, andJenna got to meet with him and
he may have been a littlestressed last year, but you met
with him again this year and washe?
(03:26):
Did he seem just as stressed?
Yes, but also I think it'sgoing well.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, really well, and I think it's a I mean
honestly a huge privilege of therole that I'm in to get to go
and have those sorts ofconversations, and I mean to sit
in the same room as the peoplewho are the ones making the
decisions about, like, ok, whatevents are we doing for this and
what are we, how are we goingto set this up and what's going
to be included when you register, and all those sorts of things,
and to get to hear directlyfrom the source.
(03:53):
And I also think it's reallygratifying for them to talk to
us.
Like last year, when I had aconversation with this lovely
priest who's planning this wholeJubilee and I was saying like,
yeah, like, we have a ton ofpeople who are interested and
pilgrims are ready to come.
He just kind of looked at me.
He's like wait, people areactually excited.
I was like, yeah, people arereally excited about the Jubilee
and so I think it's good forthem to see that all of this
(04:16):
planning that has gone into thisevent for the past however many
years has really come intofruition and that there's actual
pilgrims who are excited tocome and be in Rome for this
incredible year.
And so, yeah, it's really um, Ithink that's honestly.
Those two meetings that we'vehad, I've gotten to have with
the committee itself have beensome of my favorite parts of
(04:37):
getting to go and travel to Rome, and both for the inspections
and for the pilgrimage itself.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, it's just really surreal.
I'm glad you know I wanted todo this conversation earlier and
I even wanted to do a lot ofmore prep.
You know, more prep work aheadof the Jubilee.
But it's kind of fun to talkabout it now, looking back at
having been, and now the worldis talking about the Jubilee in
a way that the world wasn't.
I distinctly remember sittingdown in August of 2023 telling
everybody on our team there'sthis thing coming up in 2025 and
(05:05):
we need to talk about it.
And people were like, oh okay,I'm like, yeah, we need to talk
about it.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, even last fall, you know, a lot of people
hadn't heard about the Jubilee.
We were still kind of talkinginto a void.
It seemed like saying likethere's this thing coming and
now lots of people are talkingabout it and it's, it's exciting
.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, and it's been cool to see how the Jubilee has
like, what that trickle downeffect has been like, and to see
people in their parishes andtheir schools and their
communities embrace the Jubileeas not just like.
Okay, yes, the Jubilee is aboutgoing on pilgrimage to Rome,
but I hear pilgrims of hope andI hear hope get talked about all
the time everywhere and I hear,like, what does it mean to be a
(05:41):
Jubilee year?
Like?
That shows up in differentsocial media posts and different
I've heard priests talk aboutit in their homilies and I think
that's really beautiful, thatit's become a part of the
conversation within the church,whether you're in Rome or not.
And I think I mean that's thepoint of the Jubilee year right
Is to like help draw us into,like thinking about and praying
with these ideas and making it,making it something that it it
(06:04):
does impact us and that it ispart of, like it should be the
center of attention, becausethat's the point, Right.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Right.
I mean I think I've been goingaround the country kind of
giving some talks on the Jubileeand more and more people it's
resonating Like they, they know,like this is for me, even
though I may not be going onpilgrimage like there's
something for the Jubilee evenif I'm not going to Rome, and it
is exciting to hear peopletalking about the virtue of hope
(06:31):
and and all of that.
Um, but yeah it it.
Pilgrimage is a huge part of it, but it's not the only part of
the Jubilee Right.
And there's something here forme, even if I can't go to Rome
and for the people who can go toRome, it's even now.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I mean, we in planning pilgrimages we knew
kind of throughout 2024, like no, the only people that were
interested in going to theJubilee last year were priests
and group leaders.
And they were coming to usbecause they had heard of they'd
either been to previousJubilees or knew about the
Jubilee and they were thinkingthey had the foresight to say
hey, I want to bring my parish,I want to bring my school, I
(07:03):
want to bring my group, whoever.
But a lot of these groups, Imean they didn't have people
registered because no one inthese parishes even knew what
the Jubilee was, but now we'restarting to see that those
people, those priests that didthink ahead, those group leaders
that were planning to bring agroup, lo and behold, the group
is there and they're doing it,and there's people and they're
(07:24):
excited, and so I think it'syeah.
Just the excitement aroundpilgrimage to Rome in particular
has been really, reallybeautiful, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, and it's interesting to see, like the
fall trips even that we'rehaving, maybe there are more
people signing up earlier onbecause they know about it,
whereas the early trips we hadto kind of tell people no, you
want to do this.
I can promise you this is goingto be worth it.
Yeah, um, so one of your tripswas a group of college students
and then the other trip was akind of combo.
Um, you know, what would?
(07:51):
What was your experience with,especially maybe the girls from
the from college?
Like, did they, did theyembrace it?
What'd they think?
Like, did you have any moments?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, so that pilgrimage was super interesting
because it was a choir and theywere singing in all these
beautiful churches around Romeand it was right at the
beginning of the Jubilee year.
So we got to Rome, I think,like the, I got there the 4th
and they got there the 5th ofJanuary or something like that,
so it had been less than threeweeks since the Holy Doors had
been open.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I mean St Paul's at the Walls wasn't even open yet
it, since the holy doors hadbeen open.
I mean St Paul's at the Wallswasn't even open yet it opened
while you were there.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah and we were literally at St Paul's at the
Walls the day after the holydoor opened, which is crazy and
also so because of how bigEpiphany is, just as a holiday
in Europe and in Italy.
So we showed up and it's stilllike Christmas season and then
that ended and Epiphany happenedand then people went back to
work and then it was just allvery new to everybody still, and
(08:47):
I think it was new but in areally exciting way, in a way of
like we're curious about this,like what is this thing and what
can we know more?
And so I think for that groupand for those pilgrims, they, to
be very honest, a lot of themwere like I don't know what this
is Like.
What is the Jubilee?
Like I don't know what this isLike.
What is the Jubilee?
Like I am here because I'm on awith my, I'm with my choir and
(09:08):
we came to sing Jubilee or not,but like, what is this?
And it wasn't any sort ofantagonistic feelings, it was
just curiosity, and I think thatturned into a lot of really
great conversations about whatthe Holy doors are and how
that's related to the Jubileeand what indulgences and all of
these different things, and bythe end of the week they were
all so excited about it by thetime we got to the Holy Door at
(09:29):
St Peter's Basilica, which wasthe last of the four major
basilicas that we got to visit.
It was so incredible and theygot it and they understood it
and they felt like they hadembraced the spirit of Jubilee
pilgrimage.
And all of them, at the end ofthe week, talked about how the
Holy Doors and how the Jubileehad made it so much better than
they were even anticipating,because they'd gone into this
(09:49):
pilgrimage to Italy with noexpectation that the Jubilee
would do anything for them, butthen they were able to live it
and be there and witness thisevent in the universal church
and that just made their tripeven better.
And so I think that was reallycool to witness, just going from
just like the general sentimentbeing like I have no idea what
this is, but tell me more to wow.
(10:10):
This is beautiful and I'm sohappy I'm here.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, it's neat because we both were there kind
(10:37):
of like, okay, let's see whathappens Like there were a lot of
questions that even we hadabout how registration to the
doors are going to work andsince we were there in kind of a
lower season, the registrationdidn't matter.
But we didn't know that right,and I loved the pilgrimage to
the door at St Peter's and howthey've set that up that you
(10:59):
actually like pilgrimage theygive you a cross, yeah.
Yeah, you pilgrimage up ViaCongelazione with a cross and,
like you get the right away towalk and to pray and they have a
prayer resource that you canpray.
And the girls in the choir sangthe way up, which I think is
incredible.
Like, what was that like?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
we were um on the pope's instagram at like a
minute one minute and 30something seconds buried in
something it's like a two secondclip.
But yeah, like that was really,really beautiful.
And I think the St Peter's Holydoor it's just so interesting,
because the St Peter's Holy dooryou have to register for.
I mean you have to register forall of them, but you register
(11:40):
for and they check yourregistration and they give you
this cross and they give youthese prayers and it's beautiful
and they have this wholesection of the street just for
pilgrims.
And so as we were, as the choirwas moving up this street and
singing the litany of the saintsand really approaching the
whole, it felt sacred and itfelt special and it felt set
apart and it felt like it was areally, just a really
(12:03):
grace-filled moment.
And I think that's the um.
Yeah, that's something that Ithink the Jubilee offers and I
think one of our group leadersactually recently said this.
But I think doing the holydoors and doing the Jubilee as
pilgrimage and pausing to prayand pausing to participate in
that is it's a way to witnessthat grace in an even more
(12:24):
powerful way.
Right, like those graces arethere, but how often, if just
like moving through our lives,it's like, okay, like here I am,
like I'm just walking throughthe holy door at St Peter's, but
if we don't stop to reallymeditate and pray and look
around and witness the ways thatthe Lord is at work, and so I
think that was something thatwas just a very, it was a
highlight of that pilgrimage.
I'm for all of those girls inparticular and um, it's
(12:48):
interesting though, because sothis was very, very early on and
so that was St Peter's, and youregister and it's all this very
formal process, and then you goto St Paul outside the walls,
or to St Mary Major and to StJohn's Ladder and anyone can
just stroll right through theHoly Door and there's I mean,
there's people there, but it'snot.
There's no formalized processbehind it, which in some senses
is great, because you get thelike there's less people, you
(13:11):
can take your time, you can likethat's honestly a huge perk,
and that also like those areholy doors too, saint.
There's this.
I think a lot of the, theconceptions can sometimes be
like oh, saint peter's,basilica's, holy doors better
holy doors, like no, it's just adifferent holy door but anyway.
so I came back from that and Iwas like joni we need to do
(13:33):
something about these other holydoors, because that moment at
St Peter's is so marked withthat prayerful atmosphere that
like we wanted to see thatpresent in the other ones as
well.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I was so glad you said that because it was our
.
Our chaplains stopped ourpilgrims beforehand and because
most people are just using thedoor as an entrance to the Mary
Major, right, yeah, like yousaid, like it's just the
entrance door and in St Peter'sit is too, but because of that
pilgrimage experience it'sreally set apart and so our
chaplains had to really like,stop the people and be like,
(14:04):
okay, wait, this is the holydoor, let's say a prayer
together.
So when you have that idea oflet's, you know, take this idea
from St Peter's, where you getthis little brochure and you
have a litany of saints and youhave a reading from St Paul and
you have really intentionalprayer for the Pope.
It was really fun to then thinkof how we could create that for
these other doors, because eachof them have a place where you
(14:24):
can stand.
You can't walk up viaControliant Santa, right, like
you can't.
But like St Paul's on the wallsis a perfect example, you can
gather at that beautiful statueof St Paul in the beautiful
courtyard and read from Paul,and I wrote a little litany of
St Paul and you know, writing alitany of Our Lady, like taking
from that litany of Loretto forSt Mary Major and writing the,
(14:46):
you know, invoking the differentapostles for John Lateran who
line the nave.
Like each of the basilicas havesuch a particular character
that it's easy to make a littlepilgrimage prayer, prayer
service in a sense, leading upto those holy doors, and so we
have those in the Verso booklets.
If you go on pilgrimage withVerso you get a pilgrimage
booklet before you leave.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
It's really a little book, it's a spiral bound book,
and so we've put those, thoseprayers both the prayers that
(15:34):
the Vatican has put together forthe pilgrimage to St Peter's
but then the ones we wrote forthese other three holy doors.
Seriously, not that we did stopand pray before them and all of
that, but to have anintentional, just moment of
pausing and gathering yourselvesas a group and praying along
together was so powerful and weprayed beforehand and then we
went through the doors andafterwards we gathered and we
prayed together again and it wasreally, really beautiful to see
(15:55):
that.
Yeah, I think like the one ofthe most common questions I hear
is like OK, so what's sospecial about a door Like?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
what is?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
it and you're like you just walk through it.
And it's like well, no, there'smore to it, and you, by taking
those steps to make it aprayerful pilgrimage, it was
really beautiful to witness theimpact that that had on our
pilgrims.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, it's a great example of in on a pilgrimage,
everything can impact you andthere's grace everywhere.
And yeah, you could be prepared.
Zero, right, you could not knowwhat you were about to see, you
could not know what you'reabout to expect.
Like you could have zeroexpectations, zero intentions
and just receive a ton of grace.
But if you are prepared and youdo enter in, god can work even
(16:37):
greater things.
And so it's a perfect exampleof, yeah, the Holy door can
really impact you, no matterwhat.
The like walking through thisthreshold, new beginning.
Like you could have anincredibly moving experience.
But if you do a littlepreparation or you prepare your
heart spiritually and reflect,god can do even more with it.
You know, yeah, so it's justit's.
I think it's a great example ofthat.
(16:58):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, um.
So when we went, it was kind ofoff season, which was really
nice, and it I don't want tobrag to people who are going to
be going this summer.
I mean, we're going this summertoo.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
We will be there this summer.
It'll be great.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Um, but you know, I think it was just even though it
was the off time and so wemaybe had a little bit more
ability to pray.
I saw a shot of via control atSione and the pilgrim path that
was just like packed with peoplea couple of weeks ago.
Like we walked up, likeactually my husband and I walked
up pretty much by ourselves inthe pilgrim path and like we
just kind of did it ourselvesand it was a great experience,
(17:36):
but now it was just like packedwith this huge group.
So people going now probablywill face a little bit more
crowds in the summer.
But even though we didn't havethe crowds, I still felt like
there was this feeling ofcamaraderie.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Oh, yeah, in pilgrimage.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And I think that's going to even be heightened this
summer.
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I mean, there's clearly something happening,
Like you go to Rome and theJubilee just like smacks you in
the face.
It's everywhere it's in an yes,it's on the billboards and it's
in the signs and you hearpeople talking about it and all
sorts of different places andyeah, it's like it's everywhere,
but it also it's I don't know.
It's like it's everywhere, butit also it's I don't know.
It's like kind of that.
There's just like a buzz in theair.
There's something that peopleare excited about and people are
(18:15):
happy to be there, and then, asyou get to closer to where
these major basilicas are, thatjust intensifies and it's really
beautiful and I think it's yeah, I don't know just seeing
people get excited aboutsomething and rallying around an
idea and a mission, and that'sit's just really, really nice to
(18:37):
see and that in itself isrejuvenating, right.
I think it takes pilgrimage toRome, which is beautiful no
matter what, and it adds thisadditional layer to it, and I
think it's a way that the cityhas come together and it's a way
that the people from around theworld it's a common experience
they've now shared when they'rethere, and it's yeah it's really
exciting the camaraderie.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know, I think it's a good reminder to us that
if you are going to Rome andit's crowded, and just to see
that as not a curse but ablessing that look at all these
people are that are coming, I'mpart of something bigger.
I've been in a lot ofinterviews.
I've been telling people like,think about it.
Like Christmas mass, you caneither like curse the people
that are in your pew becauseyou've never seen them before
(19:17):
and they're showing up forChristmas and you're like, dang
it.
You took my pew and my parkingspace and who are you?
Well, that would be one way toreact, right.
Another reaction would be we'reso glad you're here, right,
we'd love to see you next weektoo, right.
And so to say like, yeah, is itgoing to be crowded?
But I see so many people arelike, yeah, it's going to be
crowded and miserable.
Well, why don't we see this asactually a grace that people are
(19:38):
coming and that we're walkingthis together, like we're all
the pilgrims together?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And something that we've been telling our pilgrims
is that going to Rome during aJubilee year it's different than
a pilgrimage to Rome, rightLike.
Going to Rome not during theJubilee is a totally different
experience and that has its ownlike.
It's its own thing, right.
There's both pros and cons tothat and there's things that
you're going to get to do not inthe Jubilee that you're not
(20:03):
going to get to, right Like.
You can't do everything duringa Jubilee pilgrimage that you
could if it wasn't the Jubilee.
But vice versa is true, rightLike if you go on pilgrimage to
Rome two years from now, like noholy door, and so I think it's
understanding that this is notjust me going to Rome right it's
not just your kind of standardrun-of-the-mill Roman pilgrimage
, but it's a Jubilee Romanpilgrimage and so what comes
(20:26):
with that is, yes, the holydoors and all of that sort of
stuff, but also comes with itthat's the crowds and the people
and the just differentatmosphere in the city, and
that's part of the Jubileeitself and that's an exciting
thing.
And yeah, like you said itshould, it's all depends on your
mindset.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, I have to say, like thinking about Rome on a,
you know, for a Jubilee year.
There are certain pieces of artin Rome, there are certain
piazzas in Rome that we mightnot think of it now, but like
the fountains in Piazza Navonaare connected to a Jubilee year
and like we've kind of lost thatin history unless you're an art
historian.
But there's so much in Romethat's like, oh, this was done
(21:05):
for the Jubilee, or the Popecommissioned with for the
Jubilee, and now to be able tosay like, oh, that piazza pia,
which is at the end of theincantazione, you know, in 200
years people are just going totake that place for granted, but
somebody's going to say, youknow what, this was built for
the jubilee of 2025 and be likethat was our jubilee right.
That's the time when we werethere good, I have to say, I
think that's my favorite, uh,improvement in rome, and it's at
(21:27):
the end of the incantazioneusually there were there before.
There was this really busystreet before you get to Castel
San Angelo.
So if you walked from theBridge of the Angels and Castel
San Angelo and walk to StPeter's, you have to cross a
street, and so you have to stopat a stoplight.
It was really busy One time.
It was so crowded we couldn'tcross there, and so we tried to
cross somewhere else.
We ended up walking like threemiles out of our way, no joke,
(21:53):
because there were no crosswalksand it was crazy.
And so to have that now, piazzapia pedestrian, only you can
walk from castel san angelo allthe way to st peter's without
getting hit by a car, and I meanyou have to cross one little
street.
But it's such an improvement.
I just like stood there andmarveled at it.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, it's just the best and I think that I mean in
some way, right the j, theJubilee calls on Rome and it
calls on the church to thinkabout those things in a bigger
way.
Right, like if there was noJubilee, would they have ever
thought to do that?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
until I don't know, too many people got killed and
then be like, oh, maybe this isa problem.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
But and I think you can think about that both from a
like construction, improvementstandpoint but also it's a time
for us to reflect as a church onwhere we are as a church and
what is the Lord calling us tobe and what should we focus on.
And a lot of that comes fromthe guidance of the Holy Father
and his theme of pilgrims ofhope and, okay, like as the Holy
Father wants us to, pray abouthope and talk about hope and
(22:46):
think about hope, and so let'sdo it and let's embrace that as
a church, and I think that'swhat we have.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
The Jubilee is a reason for that to be the case.
Yeah, what improvements do weneed to make?
Yeah, right, like Rome madeimprovements to the
infrastructure, whatimprovements do I need to make
in my life?
What improvements do we need tomake in the church?
Yeah, how do we need to talkabout things differently,
exactly, and so, like, what isthe Jubilee calling us to?
Beyond?
You know what infrastructure,but then what like spiritual?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
growth and kick in the seat of the pants to eat
Exactly.
Yeah, I love that, yeah.
So, speaking of hope, you wrotea book about hope.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, I talked to him a little bit about it.
Well, did we talk about it inthe first episode?
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I don't know, the first episode was a long time
ago, um, but you wrote this bookand it was about hope and it
was using the Holy door at StPeter's Basilica, and it was
about hope.
And then you got to go and seethe Holy door at St Peter's
Basilica, which you had seen.
But you then got to walkthrough the Holy door at St
Peter's Basilica which you'dnever had the chance to do
before this year.
(23:43):
What was that like?
Like, I guess, like seriouslylike getting you.
So you got to Rome and yourvery first day there, that
afternoon, you and your husbandwent and did the St Peter's Holy
door very first day there thatafternoon you and your husband
went and did the St Peter's holydoor.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
How surreal was that?
It was pretty surreal.
It was funny because somebodyhad told me that I had walked
through it in the, the, theextraordinary Jubilee year of
mercy.
Yeah, I have no recollection ofit, I don't think I did, but
then even that's a sign right,that like I didn't, didn't think
about it, I did it withoutthinking I didn't, it didn't
impact me, so I don't think Idid.
I wrote in the book that Ididn't walk through it, so I
guess I lied if I walked throughit, but I have no recollection
of walking through it and so towalk through it and to and you
(24:20):
know you're kind of, you're notpushed through it, but there are
a lot of people and so youdon't get to just scenes to
write the book.
But it was surreal.
I even seeing the pope open thedoor at Christmas Eve.
Actually we were sitting in myparents living room and I was
watching the pope open the doorand I was just like that's my
(24:42):
door, like it's mine, like Ifelt so protective of it and I
was like yeah, no, no, it's not,it's not your door, it's my
door really really, really smallwriting at the very bottom
corner it says Joan Watson.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
It does, yeah it says copyright Joan Watson.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
But so you had to walk through it.
And now to hear people who havewalked through it and because
they've read the book, I hadsomebody Instagram message me
she was reading the book whileshe was inside St Peter's, like
she had walked through the doorand then she was reading
portions of the book, standingin there for like 20 minutes and
the guard was kind of lookingat her like what are you doing?
But that meant so much to methat, like her passing through
(25:18):
the door was a differentexperience because she read my
book.
Like that was very humbling.
But yeah, I can't wait to do itagain.
Actually, because there arecertain panels that I wanted to
look at and I didn't rememberbecause I was just so overcome
with the fact that this door washere and I was walking through
it.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, and it's real.
It's a culmination of a lot ofhard work and prayer and all of
that going into that, and Ithink it also.
I think that's so just abeautiful image to think of
someone actually reading yourbook while in St Peter's, and I
think it also speaks to justwhat we were saying earlier
about if you choose tointentionally reflect on these
(25:58):
things and intentionally praywith them, then you're going to
get so much out of it and it'sgoing to impact you in ways that
you otherwise wouldn't haveimagined.
And I think yeah, I thinkthat's what's really cool about
your book is that it's not justlike a history lesson on the
holy door, but it invites youinto that experience of the Holy
Door and makes it moreprayerful and makes it more
(26:20):
spiritually enriching.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, thank you, yeah , because I purposely didn't
want to write a book that wouldjust be like a stagnant history
of something or even like a artdescription of something, or
even like an art description.
I wanted it to be a way that,regardless of whether you go to
St Peter's, regardless ofwhether you ever see the door in
person, what is this doorcalling you to do?
It's not just about this dooris here and it was made in 1949.
(26:43):
Who cares?
What matters is what is Christcalling me, what does he want
from me?
I was really edified the groupyou went with in February, one
of the group leaders that reallymeant a lot too that it could
be used to prepare someone forpilgrimage.
Um, so when she said that, likeher, young adults recognize
(27:06):
panels from the door, and we'relike hey this is our panel.
Um, that that was.
That was awesome, like I justlove our good group leaders who
do a great job preparing theirpeople and we work with so many
of them and it's great.
I'm really grateful, reallygrateful.
Um, that trip that you were inin February was a little
different than the trips we wentin January, because when we
went in January it was justjubilee year and it was great
(27:28):
and we got to, you know, gothrough the holy doors and
experience Rome in the jubileeyear.
But when you went in February,there was actually a special
jubilee event going on yes, thejubilee for deacons, and so can
you?
Talk a little bit about what.
Does it mean that there's thisjubilee of deacons?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah.
So I think, um, I think people,what I've noticed in just like
talking to people is, after they, the first question, after like
wait, what is the jubilee?
And they get that figured outand they figure out the holy
doors, but then it's like, wait,so there's these jubilee events
and what does that mean?
But then if I go, if I'm notgoing for an event, is that
still a Jubilee pilgrimage andis the event like?
Is it all year and like, but soI think the whole year is the
(28:06):
Jubilee year, but there arespecific dates within that
calendar year that the churchhas decided to celebrate and
recognize and, uh, focus ondifferent groups within the
church.
There's all sorts of differentevents, whether it's deacons or
priests or educators ormusicians or you name it.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
There's probably a Jubilee Musical bands.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I really wanted to go for musical bands, I would go
for that one in a heartbeat.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
They're going to have like concerts in the piazzas
for musical bands?
Okay, I'm getting ahead ofourselves.
Okay, keep talking.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
But I think what number one?
What I think is beautiful aboutthat is that, just as the
Jubilee year is a year for thechurch to stop and celebrate and
focus on things that areimportant for us to focus on
that, the church is calling outand saying hey, we care about
you.
We care about you, deacons, wewant to recognize the
contributions that you make toour church, family and people
(28:58):
with disabilities.
We care about you, we value youas part of this community and
we want to celebrate that.
And catechists we care aboutyou.
We value you as part of thiscommunity and we want to
celebrate that.
And catechists we care aboutyou and we value you and we want
to celebrate that.
And I think that's beautiful.
And I think that, in a placewhere there's so many people who
, for one reason or another,feel like maybe the church
doesn't care about me, Maybe Ido all of these things and who
(29:20):
cares right?
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And whether, that's, they don't even see me.
Yes, they all of these things,and they who cares Right?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And whether that they don't even see me.
Yes, they don't even see me andI think there's a lot of
reasons that that might be thecase.
And yes, there are people thatthe church has overlooked over
the years, and even people whoare like in these ministries,
like deacons right, like theyhave a parish or a different
thing, a ministry that they'reshowing up to and they're giving
to the church, and it's stillcan like how many times did
(29:44):
people go home at the end of theday?
And they're like, okay, so likeI did the thing, but like now
what?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
and so what does?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
anyone care and?
I think that was a just being atthe Jubilee of Deacons was such
a beautiful witness to like wecare, yeah, and Deacons are
great and that's awesome and youmatter and you contribute so
much and we want to give youyour moment here because you're
that special to our church andthat was really, really
(30:11):
beautiful to witness.
And so the pilgrimage therewere like 25 of us and there
were only six deacons of that 25.
And so it was cool to see thosedeacons kind of became like the
mini celebrities of the group,right.
Like they got to go and sit upfront at all the events and they
had special things that werejust for them and they got to.
They felt like they were soimportant and so valued and to
(30:34):
be affirmed by these otherrandom pilgrims from the other
groups across the country thatthey'd never met and they were
like, hey, wow, these peoplecare about me and I get to be
here in Rome and Rome is openingits arms to me as a deacon.
That was really, reallybeautiful to witness.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So what kind of events, uh, did they go to?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, so they had a variety of different things.
Um, they had some catechesissessions, and so those were
broken up by language and theywere in different churches, kind
of around the Vatican area.
So that's one of the thingsthey went to.
They had a vigil prayer servicewhere all of the deacons
renewed their diaconal promises,which was beautiful, and so
(31:12):
they had different deacons givewitness talks from around the
world in different languages,and, yeah, everything was
multilingual at that point,which was really cool to see all
that come together.
(31:34):
And then the highlight of theweekend was mass in St Peter's
Basilica, not in the square, butin the basilica, where, with
all of these deacons that werethere, and then there were 13,
14, maybe that's the total,wrong number ordinations to the
diaconate there, which was, yeah, that was really special.
And it was also so interestingbecause this Jubilee happened
just after the Holy Father hadgone into the hospital, and so
everyone was like, oh, we'regoing to have mass with the Holy
(31:54):
Father, and the Holy Father isgoing to ordain these people
deacons and it's.
And then Pope Francis wasn'tthere.
And I think that was reallyinteresting because I think
there was this initial moment ofhesitation, of like wait a
second, like no Pope, is thisstill going to happen?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Are we still going to ?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
do this?
Does it still matter?
And then everyone was like waita second, yeah, like we're
going to make it happen and it'sgoing to be beautiful.
And Pope Francis might not havebeen physically present, but
his homily was read and like hewas there in spirit and it was a
really beautiful moment ofprayer for the Holy Father and
(32:30):
also just to come together andin spite of that, still all of
those graces were still superpresent and super.
I think it was just a reallyimpactful experience on everyone
.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I think it's interesting.
I heard from some people like,oh, the Jubilee is going to be
ruined if Pope Francis dies.
And like, first of all, that'sa lot of pressure to put on this
guy, right, don't die, you'llruin the Jubilee, um, but I
think it's actually a reallygood learning or teaching
experience or teaching lesson,whatever I want to say, because
the Jubilee is not about thePope Right, and going to Rome
isn't about the Pope right.
(32:59):
We I think so many people wantto go to Rome because they want
to see the Pope, as if that'sthe point, like he's a superstar
, celebrity and I mean, yeah,he's a rock star, whatever, but
that's not been the case of thechurch during the centuries.
Like the Jubilee is not aboutthe Pope, the Jubilee is about
going to St Peter's, praying atthe tomb of St Peter, receiving
the sacraments of confession andHoly Communion, like whether
(33:21):
the Pope's there or not.
In in 1350, the second Jubileeyear, the Pope didn't even live
in Rome.
And they they were like, hey,pope, call another Jubilee in
1350 so that you'll come home toRome.
And he's like, yeah, I'll calla Jubilee year, but I'm not
coming back, right.
So, our second Jubilee, the Popewasn't even there either, and
so I think it's a good reminderto us of where our faith
actually isn't in the man thePope Like.
(33:44):
He's great, he's a leader.
We love him.
He's a successor to St Peter,but that's not where I've put my
faith.
I've put my faith in ChristRight, and so it's a beautiful
reminder to us.
I think that do we want thePope healthy and good and holy
and wonderful?
Absolutely, but he's not the beall and end all of the Jubilee
year or even a pilgrimage toRome, yeah, and I think it was
(34:07):
beautiful to witness.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I mean, just, I think the Jubilee and like pilgrimage
does this and Rome does this,but the particular Jubilee,
pilgrimage, it's the universalchurch.
Right, and you are, we arethere as the body of Christ.
In that case, we were there asthe body of Christ to celebrate
and recognize these deacons, butwe are there together as the
body of Christ to be onpilgrimage and to be there for
(34:32):
the Jubilee and to receive thesegraces as a church family.
And I think, yes, the Pope isamazing and wonderful and when
he's part of that, that'sincredible.
But it was, I think I wasreally proud is the wrong word,
but I was really glad andgrateful that our pilgrims were
(34:52):
able to embrace that mindsetthat this is still something
really special, regardless ofwhether he's there or not.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, I love that, um , so you had some people and you
kind of mentioned this.
You had some people in thegroup that weren't deacons, um,
and they, you know, the deaconswere kind of the rock stars of
the group, which I think isreally dear.
That's awesome, because so manytimes I think deacons are those
unsung heroes in the church,right service.
(35:18):
But almost every permanentdeacon I know like totally has
this humble attitude of serviceand they just want to serve the
church and so often what they docompletely gets unnoticed by
most of us, right, um?
So I love the fact that theywere the star of the show.
But can you like, let's say, Iwant to go on pilgrimage and I'm
going to be there for thejubilee musical bands, but I'm
(35:40):
not in a musical band.
Or I want to go for the jubileeI just happen to be there for
the j Jubilee of musical bands,but I'm not in a musical band.
Or I want to go for the JubileeI just happened to be there for
the Jubilee of consecrated life, but I'm not obviously a
consecrated virgin Um, did thepeople who go, who went for the
Jubilee for deacons and weren'tdeacons, do they still?
I hate to use the phrase, butget something out of it, even
though they weren't deacons.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Absolutely For sure.
And I think yeah, there'ssomething about number one, I
think.
If the church has decided thatwe are going to have a Jubilee
of insert blank here, that meansthat some people in the church
have decided that this communityis contributing something to
the church and has something toteach us.
And so if you're there for theJubilee of prisoners or you're
(36:17):
there for the Jubilee of Marianspirituality or the Jubilee of
consecrated life or whatever itis, and you don't feel like you
fit into any of those categories, it's not like a closed off
event, it's anyone can go andanyone can be a part of it, and
everyone is invited intocelebrating and learning about
what role this group of peopleplays in the church and how do
(36:39):
they contribute to the church.
And I think that, for in thecase of the Jubilee of Deacons,
it was a yeah, it was beautifulto witness all of these
non-deacons, these lay peoplethat were there just embrace
deacons as something to becelebrated and to just honestly
(36:59):
to have the opportunity toparticipate in an event in Rome
of the universal church isunique and beautiful in and of
itself.
Right Like you could be there,whether you're there for a
Jubilee event or if it's acanonization or it's some sort
of thing to witness the, thecapital C church on display in
full form, drawing people in,drawing people together.
(37:21):
That's just such a powerfulexperience.
And then saying, okay, like, soit's deacons today and tomorrow
it's teenagers and next weekit's bishops or whoever it might
be that great, like, we'regoing to celebrate you.
And part of being part of thechurch is leaning into the
things that are the church andthe people that are the church
(37:42):
and getting to know them andbeing a part of that anyway,
yeah, I love that point of likeasking yourself okay, like I'm
here, what do these people haveto teach me?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
or what is their role and what is their charism and
vocation have to teach me, evenif that's not me, right, because
the church is a body of manyparts right and thank goodness,
we're not all ears or noses ortoes, right, because that would
be a weird body, right?
And so how can I receive thegraces of of encountering these
other parts?
Um, and what do they have toteach me?
(38:12):
I think that's really powerful.
So go Jubilee, go Jubilee, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Any last thoughts?
Go on pilgrimage.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
And that's the other thing is that even if you can't
go to rome, there are gracesattached to going on pilgrimage
here in the states too.
So you know, intentionally makea pilgrimage to your cathedral,
or we talked about this, Ithink, and I get everything
mixed up.
I think we talked about that inthe first episode of this, this
podcast about jubilee, aboutthe jubilee year, but um, but
yeah, so go on pilgrimagesomewhere yeah we'd love for you
(38:41):
to go on pilgrimage with Verso.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
But even if you can't do that, Go on pilgrimage and
if you can't even go onpilgrimage, then pray about hope
, that's right.
Think about hope and embracethat, because that's what the
church is doing this year andit's a beautiful thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Sounds great.
Well, thanks for chatting withme, jenna, of course, thanks for
having me.
Thanks, listeners, forlistening and remember to
subscribe and share and allthose good things, and stay
(39:22):
tuned for our next episode, aswe Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
dates and for more information.
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