March 11, 2025 • 32 mins
The interns take over the podcast! In this special first episode of In Via, Verso Ministries' interns Olivia and John turn the tables on Joan to interview her about the Jubilee Year.
Step into the sacred history of the Jubilee with us as we delve into this 725 year-old tradition. In this episode, we're not just exploring the significance of the Jubilee; we're delving into what it means to be a pilgrim of hope, embracing the radical mercy of God and how it unfolds in our lives today.
Listeners will learn how this special time offers a dual opportunity for spiritual renewal and communal connection through pilgrimage. With personal anecdotes and historical insights, we unpack the journey to holy doors and how they symbolize an entrance into a deeper relationship with God. This episode empowers you to find ways to observe the Jubilee in your own life, inspiring actions of mercy that reach beyond borders.
Whether you're planning a trip to Rome or seeking ways to embody hope and grace right in your community, this conversation encourages everyone to embrace their role as pilgrims. Ultimately, we want you to discover how to carry the spirit of Jubilee into your everyday journey. As we look forward to our new season, join us! Subscribe, share your thoughts, and be part of our growing community seeking deeper connections through faith and fellowship. We can't wait for you to tune in!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
To kick off this second seasonof Envia, two of our interns at
Verso Ministries are taking overthe podcast Olivia and Josh,
(00:41):
both students at the Universityof Notre Dame, are interviewing
me today as we begin this secondseason to look at all things
Jubilee.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hi Joni, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I am great.
I'm excited to talk about theJubilee.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
We are excited to hear about it.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So I'm here with two interns, josh and Olivia.
They're taking over the podcastto ask questions about the
Jubilee, although you probablyknow more than most people.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
I've certainly heard a little bit about it just from
being on the campus of NotreDame.
We certainly talk in theCatholic circles about it.
I'm not sure about you, Olivia.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, agreed, I think you hear a little bit about it
at Notre Dame, but it wasn'tuntil I started working here at
Verso till I really got a littlebit of insight into what the
Jubilee is.
But you know more than both ofus combined, probably.
So we're very excited to talkto you about this.
Do you want to give us a briefoverview of what the Jubilee is
and kind of when it started?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah.
So that's one of those bigquestions that people want like
a 30 second answer to and it'slike, okay, do I start with the
old Testament.
Like how far back do we want togo?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Let's go all the way back, why not?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So the Jubilee actually started in Leviticus 25
, when God asked the Israelitesto observe.
First he says you know, couldyou observe a sabbatical year?
Well, he didn't say could?
Like he wasn't asking them, hewas telling them.
And he said I want you, everyseven years, to observe this
sabbatical year, this year ofrest.
I mean we think of sabbaticalsas like professors going on
sabbaticals where they've beenteaching a long time and now
(02:10):
they get a break.
But it's actually, it's fromthe you know, the Sabbath, the
idea of Sabbath.
And so every seven years,israelites were supposed to take
a break, they were supposed torest and the land was even
supposed to rest.
You can see in the OldTestament God talks about the
land needs its Sabbath, and so Ithink that's just a really
beautiful reminder to us of theneed for rest and the trust in
the Lord that if the land isgoing to rest every seven years,
(02:33):
that means I need to trust thathe's going to provide for me
when I'm not tilling and keepingand reaping and all that good
stuff, right?
So every seven years.
So they were supposed toobserve this sabbatical year and
we find out they actually don't.
They don't obey the Lord andthat's one of the reasons for
the exiles into Assyria andBabylon.
But every seven sabbaticalyears they were supposed to
(02:55):
observe a jubilee year.
So in Leviticus we see thisdirection to have a jubilee year
of celebration, and it reallywas a jubilee year of mercy.
And so the people were supposedto learn mercy by showing mercy
.
So it was radical.
I mean, debts were forgiven,prisoners were freed.
If you had gotten land fromsomebody, you were returning
(03:15):
that land back to its originalowners.
Like this was radical mercyevery 50 years.
But it was of course a physicalreminder of the spiritual mercy
that God wanted to show right.
So it's not about release frombondage for physical slavery,
but release from the bondage ofsin.
So in Isaiah we see Isaiahprophesying that the Messiah was
(03:36):
going to bring the Jubilee, wasgoing to bring this year of
favor, and that's one of themessianic prophecies in Isaiah
that Christ fulfills.
So we go to Luke 4, and in Luke4, christ goes into the
synagogue, he opens the scrolland he reads this prophecy from
Isaiah that talks about a yearof favor, and so we might glance
over that and not reallyrealize what a year of favor is,
(03:57):
but the Jews would haverealized that's a jubilee.
So the jubilee that started inthe Old Testament Testament that
was supposed to be a physicalreminder of the Lord's mercy is
really restored and fulfilled inChrist, who comes to bring the
real mercy, who comes to bringthe real freedom and the real
Jubilee.
So that's really an unleashingof grace through indulgences,
(04:31):
through certain acts of mercythat then are given great grace,
acts of pilgrimage.
And so Boniface VIII calls thisfirst Christian year of jubilee
, hearkening back to thatmessianic j Jubilee.
And now we celebrate them every25 years in the church.
Wow, so there's your, not 30,second answer.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
That's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I think it's so great though, to have you know you
can have time kind of in theshort term on, you know, every
Sunday to call, call back, torest, but to have those longer
periods of time.
I think it's incredibly helpfuland I love kind of the focus
the focus in on a virtue or thefocus in on something of the
sort, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, like we're supposed to be focusing on hope
this year, and so it kind ofredirects us in that year of
favor to hope.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, you know that's so interesting.
I might go on a little bit of atangent here, so stop me, but
I'm an Italian student here atNotre Dame and it's so
interesting that you mentionedPope Boniface starting the first
Jubilee, because that wasaround the time when Dante was
writing his Inferno and somemight even call him like one of
the first pilgrims.
So that's just such a littleinteresting tidbit of history to
me that you bring that up.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, we see in Dante's Divine Comedy his
reference to the Jubilee hisreference like he.
Some people think he was writingthis, like you said, as the
first pilgrim, um, and so everyJubilee kind of has a little you
know little bit of history.
But I think that idea thatDante being the pilgrim and
writing the divine comedy,within the Jubilee he makes
(06:01):
certain references like to theveil of Veronica on display at
St Peter's in, I think, inparadise, I think, and it's just
, yeah, it's really neat to kindof place it within the broader
cultural history as well.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So interesting.
So what does a typical Jubileelook like today?
Like when a pilgrim gets toRome for this Jubilee.
What does one do?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So the Jubilee years in Rome really are times of
pilgrimage.
Obviously that's how theJubilee started, was pilgrims
came to Rome.
It's kind of neat.
Actually, Boniface VIII calledthe Jubilee in response to a lay
initiative, so it wasn'tactually really his idea.
We don't think.
We think it was actually theidea of the laity to go on
pilgrimage.
They were always going onpilgrimage.
I mean, they had been going onpilgrimage for 1,300 years.
But in 1299, we see this influxof pilgrims who are really
(06:45):
seeking the Lord's favor, whoare seeking the Lord's mercy,
and Boniface is like whoa, whatare all these people doing here?
And there's an idea that thepeople actually thought there
would be this kind of specialjubilee, which is kind of neat.
So it was really a layinitiative because they knew
they needed the Lord's mercy andthey needed the Lord's help.
And so that's still a hallmarkof the Jubilee right, Going to
(07:05):
Rome.
You don't have to go to Rome.
There are other ways to receivethe graces of this year, even
if you can't go to Rome.
But really the Jubilee really iscentered in Rome in a special
way.
And so you make pilgrimage,particularly to the tombs of the
apostles Peter and Paul, so yougo to the basilicas of Peter
and Paul.
And then I think one thing wecan't forget is that you are
(07:26):
called to make a good confessionand receive the sacraments,
because that's where we find theLord's mercy.
So it's not about all theselike works that I do, but that
this pilgrimage is to this placeof prayer where I pray for the
Holy Father and I pray at thetomb of Peter and I receive the
sacraments.
Like that, we can't, we can'tforget that.
We can't, you know,underestimate the power of the
(07:47):
sacrament of confession andcommunion.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I mean, I think it's incredibly helpful to be
reminded of that, because it'snot just a matter of doing
certain things, but thetransformation of your heart.
As you're speaking to Um.
Yeah, I remember back um youmentioned every 25 years is a
Jubilee.
I remember back.
I want to say there was one.
I don't remember the last.
I wasn't alive in 2000, but butI do remember there was one
(08:13):
back, maybe 10 years ago or so2016 um, yeah, I wonder so.
Are there sometimes specialjubilees or of something of the
sort?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
yeah.
So thanks for thanks for makingme feel old, josh that you
weren't alive.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
No, I'm just teasing.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Um, I actually really love to work with you guys
because it reminds me that yeah,I mean, it reminds me of my age
and wisdom.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
But, um, but it also keeps me young.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
It keeps me young.
Um so 2000 was the lastordinary Jubilee.
John Paul II really saw hispontificate as bringing the
church into the new millennium,and so it was called the Great
Jubilee of 2000.
And it was.
There were just really powerfulmoments in that year, but Pope
Francis called an extraordinaryyear of Jubilee, and so the
popes can call extraordinaryJubilees whenever they want.
(08:56):
So it's funny because when I'vebeen talking lately about the
Jubilee to people and I sayevery 25 years, every 25 years,
they're like wait a minute, Ithought there was one in 2016.
So 2016 was a year of mercy andI think it was just really
Francis looking around andseeing what we need, kind of
like the year of hope.
I think Francis looked aroundand decided we needed some hope
(09:16):
but, he called thisextraordinary year.
Another example is in 1983, JohnPaul II called an extraordinary
jubilee because of theanniversary of the incarnation.
The thought is that in 2033,there will be another
extraordinary jubilee becauseit'll be kind of traditionally
the 2000th anniversary of thedeath of our Lord.
(09:38):
So the thought is that 2033might be an extraordinary, but
so different popes will callextraordinary.
Is that 2033 might be anextraordinary, but so different
popes will call extraordinary,like extra, extra grace.
We need extra grace.
So you remember that one.
So yeah, it was about 10 yearsago.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
That's super great to know.
I mean, I I can only remembervaguely so to be a little bit
older now and see sort of allthe the bustle around the
Jubilee, especially getting tobe around a college campus and
within a company here at Versothat's kind of specializes in
travel and seeing a lot ofpeople travel.
It's exciting to see people soeager about the Jubilee year,
(10:17):
but I know myself I won't beable to travel to Rome this year
.
I won't be able to visit orkind of see the festivities.
So what would that look likefor those who might not be able
to travel?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, so I think it is.
It is important for us torealize that this Jubilee is for
everyone and not to just kindof disregard it if you can't.
There's been a lot of talkabout Rome, right, and this
special podcast season is goingto focus on Rome and the Jubilee
, obviously, but everybody'scalled to the Jubilee and
everybody can participate in theJubilee, and there's a few.
There's a document that PopeFrancis wrote and then out of
(10:49):
that document it's called hopedoes not disappoint.
It's really beautiful.
Out of that document came adecree on various indulgences,
different graces.
Some people get worried aboutthat word indulgence, but it's
just different ways that theLord is going to give us grace,
different ways we can get gracethis year, and one of my
favorites is to make apilgrimage to Christ present in
our neighbor, that Christ ispresent in the homebound, christ
(11:13):
is present in the sick, he'spresent in the imprisoned, and
so you actually don't have to goto Rome.
You can go next door, right.
You can go to the nursing homedown the street, where people
are lonely and in need of hope,and you can make a pilgrimage to
christ present in them.
So there are lots of ways tostill to still celebrate this
jubilee, even if you can't go torome, because we're all called
to be pilgrims of hope, and so Ithink it's really a call to
(11:36):
search our own lives and say,how can I bring hope to someone
today, how can I be this, thisinstrument of hope in a world
that sometimes is reallyhopeless or seems really
hopeless?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I'm not sure about you, olivia, but I know at the
Basilica of the Sacred Hearthere in Notre Dame there's been
mentioned how that the churchhas been designated as kind of a
special church.
What does that kind of factorinto our lives here?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, so that's another way that you can kind of
celebrate the Jubilee even ifyou can't go to Rome is that
there's only certain holy doors,and we can talk about holy
doors in a second.
There's only a few holy doors,and the holy doors are in
basilicas in Rome, but thatdoesn't mean there aren't other
pilgrimage places, and so theBasilica of the Sacred Heart has
been designated by BishopRhodes as a pilgrimage site.
(12:27):
The Pope asked the bishops ofthe dioceses to designate
certain churches in theirdioceses usually maybe the
cathedral or ones like theBasilica that have historic
significance as pilgrimageplaces, and so someone could
come on pilgrimage to the campusof the University of Notre Dame
and it would be a beautifulpilgrimage, right?
We could help them, we couldtell them everything they need
to see and do.
We actually had an episode inlast season about the Basilica
(12:48):
with one of the tour guides andlike the riches that are here on
campus.
But so you can make apilgrimage to one of these sites
and, even if you can't go toRome, you can still make that
intentional journey.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
If we're talking a little bit about intentional
journeys before we move on tothe Holy Doors, I have one more
question for you.
I know during a Jubilee yearthere's a whole year when you
could go on pilgrimage, and hereat Verso we have trips running
almost the whole year round.
Is there any significance togoing at a specific time, or why
would people choose one timeover another?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, so that's a great question.
I mean, I would say, go onpilgrimage whenever you can
right Like whenever you wheneverthe opportunity is, so don't
don't get discouraged if you'relike well, it's just not in the
plans for 2025 because I haveclass or I don't have any money
or right Like there's.
There's lots of times that Ithink the Lord calls us to
himself.
I'd say the best time to go onpilgrimage is when you feel the
(13:41):
Lord is calling you into thatrelationship, because it's all
like a pilgrimage.
Is that intentional journey?
Anybody can go on vacation,right?
Anybody can just decide okay, Ihave some expendable income,
I'm going to go see theColosseum in Rome.
But a pilgrim is one who says,yeah, I'd love to see the
Colosseum in Rome, but I'm goingto go with that intention, with
open hands and an open heart,ready to see what the Lord has
(14:04):
in store for me on thispilgrimage.
And so you know you can go onpilgrimage anytime, if you just
even down the street, if youjust ask the Lord to work
through that journey.
So you know, I could definitelyrecommend certain times to go to
Rome.
The Jubilee year would be oneof those times, because it's
just full of grace and I don'tlike crowds, but there is
(14:28):
something really exhilaratingabout being there with so many
other people who were there forthe Jubilee.
So I was there in January,which is a great time to go to
Rome because it's off season, sothe crowds weren't intense like
they might be this summer, butjust to be there with people
from all over the world.
And to you know, there'scertain events this year that
(14:48):
celebrate, like we just took agroup to the Jubilee of Deacons
and 10% of the world's permanentdeacons were in Rome for this
event.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Isn't that crazy, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And so there are specific events you might want
to go to, just to be surroundedby people from all over the
world.
Sometimes we lose track of thatin the States the universality
of the church, the history ofthe church.
So there are particular momentsI would suggest going, but
really anytime.
I mean, in Rome the fall isbeautiful, christmas is
wonderful because it's offseason, but really the idea of
(15:22):
that pilgrimage is when is theLord calling you closer to
himself through this pilgrimageand this journey?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, that's a great answer, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
It's been so incredible to see the impact
that certain pilgrims have hadgoing to Rome, visiting Rome,
getting to work here in Verso, Ithink.
I mean we had a call earlierthis morning of a deacon who was
actually on the trip you werementioning.
I think Olivia could probablyspeak more about it because you
got to speak with him right.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I did.
I spoke to one of the deaconswho went on the Jubilee of
Deacons trip and he was just soexcited and just felt so blessed
to be able to attend that tripand he spoke about a moment when
him and 2,400 other deacons allwalked in at the same time to a
church in Rome, I believe, andhe just said it was breathtaking
to just see, like you know,this expression of Christ, like
(16:08):
in Rome with all of these otherdeacons.
It was an experience that forhim, was once in a lifetime and
he could not speak enoughpositive things about it.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It's pilgrimage can be a very life-changing
opportunity.
Yeah, it just.
I think it unites you in the tothe church in such a unique way
and in the church yes, the Popeand you know the magisterium
and all of that highfalutinstuff, but think about it, the
Holy Father wasn't even at theJubilee for deacons because he
was in the hospital and so italso unites you to your brothers
and sisters in Christ in such aparticular way.
(16:41):
That was one thing that touchedme at World Youth Day.
A lot of us went to World YouthDay at Verso and I think a lot
of people were like, oh, I'mgoing to go see the Pope, but
you were actually probablyrarely going to see the Pope.
He was going to drive by, hewas going to be really far away.
Right, josh, you were at WorldYouth.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Day right.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I was actually more touched with the encounter with
Christ in my neighbor, in theuniversality of the church, even
more.
Do you agree?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
with that.
I couldn't agree more, though,especially with the sheer number
of people that you get to.
I mean, the visualization ofthe universality of the church
is unlike anything I've everseen at World Youth Day, and I
mean, I think to have anencounter like that in Rome this
year perhaps, or even, likeyou're saying, just the
encounter with your next doorneighbor perhaps.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
It doesn't have to be grand all the time, but it's
incredibly, incredibly powerful.
Yeah, I love that the deaconhad that kind of that ability to
reflect on that moment too.
You know, cause that's anotherimportant thing of pilgrimage is
when you get home to look backat those moments that touched
you and to take that moment toprocess it.
I think sometimes we just comeback and we go into our everyday
life but process it and seewhat was the Lord doing and
maybe I won't see it for a fewweeks or even a few years what
(17:56):
the Lord was doing in thatmoment.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, absolutely Keeping those moments present in
your mind, everything thatstands out to you and even the
little moments that just canchange someone's worldview.
That's very important.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Oh yeah, I've got.
I've got to ask now like what's, what's the deal with the holy
doors?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
here Because.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I don't know if I've ever been through a holy door,
but I have been hearing a lotabout them.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So I hadn't really been.
I hadn't been through a holydoor, I don't think, until this
past month, which is crazy,because I had lived in Rome.
I've lived in Rome twice.
I've been to Rome because I hadlived in Rome.
I've lived in Rome twice.
I've been to Rome.
I don't know 15, 20 times.
I've been to St Peter's.
How many times?
Right, and I don't think Iwalked through in 2016 in the
(19:02):
Holy Door.
I don't recall, I don'tremember it.
So I don't think I'd ever beenthrough a Holy Door until this
last month.
So the Holy Doors are only openduring Jubilee years, which is
why I've been to St Peter's ahundred thousand times and never
walked through the.
I've been.
I've probably been like, I'vegotten into St Peter's Basilica
in probably a dozen differentdoors in different ways,
(19:22):
including from the roof neverwalked through.
So the the holy door is aspecial door and it's only open
during Jubilee years and it'sactually bricked up three of the
four.
So there's four holy doors inthe four major basilicas.
This year there's actually afifth holy door Pope Francis
made in one of the prisons inRome so that the prisoners could
(19:43):
participate in this incredibleyear of mercy.
Isn't that amazing?
Yeah.
I wish you all could see Josh'sface.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And I just had to tell you that he was like what?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So, yeah, there's a, there's a holy door in the
prison, so I did not walkthrough that door, but we walked
through the other four andthey're bricked up.
In three of the four doorsthey're basilicas.
They're bricked up on the back.
St Paul's side of the walls has, like, another door behind the
door, but they're only openduring Jubilee, it's.
It's not that like, oh, you canonly walk through these doors
(20:15):
because they zap you and dosomething special during Jubilee
years, um, but that this it's asign that it is this year of
the Lord's mercy, that it isthis year of favor, um, I
actually kind of think about thefact that there were these
gates in Rome that during thepagan era that were only open,
um, or maybe they were closed.
They were either open or closedduring times of peace, and so
(20:36):
it kind of reminds me of that.
Like this is like this outwardsymbol that something's
different.
You know that something'sdifferent now, but you walk
through these doors and that'sthat's kind of a sign that your
pilgrimage has ended right.
You walk through these doorsand you've made your pilgrimage,
you've made it to the.
I mean think about the peoplethat used to walk from England
and go on foot to, you know, toto Rome on pilgrimage during a
(20:58):
Jubilee.
That would be a huge deal towalk through those doors and be
like I've made it, um.
But I always remind people yourpilgrimage actually doesn't end
there, because you you have totake the fruits of the
pilgrimage home.
And this is really thebeginning, right, because you've
been transformed, you've hadthese experiences and now you go
(21:19):
pilgrimage home and this isreally the beginning, right,
because you've been transformed,you've had these experiences
and now you go back home.
But so the holy doors arereally dear to me, because I
wrote a Bible study book prayerreflection on the door at St
Peter's.
But really the door is Christ,right, and John Paul II said
that in the Jubilee year Christis the entrance to the Father,
he is the gate, he is the sheepgate, he is the door.
And so the doors are justreally outward manifestations of
(21:39):
that inward disposition that wewant to come to the Father and
that we want to be transformedand start anew again.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Joni trivia question for you Can you name all four
holy doors, which I'm sure youcan?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So the one I wrote the book on and the one I think
that's most famous, is the HolyDoor at St Peter's Basilica.
And I think it's most famousbecause that's actually the one
that Holy Father traditionallyopens, and he opens out on
Christmas Eve, prior to a holyyear.
So you can see actually areally beautiful picture of this
past.
Christmas Eve, francis was inhis wheelchair and so he needed
(22:13):
help opening the door.
In 2000, john Paul II was sobent over with his Parkinson's
that it was difficult for him toeven walk through the door.
So there's really beautifulmoments that come to us from
these doors, from these moments.
Then St Paul, outside the walls,has one of the oldest holy
doors.
The holy doors have kind ofbeen redone, but they've always
(22:33):
been there.
Does that make sense?
So like they've always hadthese, we've always had these
doors since, like I don't know,the 16th century maybe, but
we've gotten new, actual doors,and so the ones are the ones at
St Paul's at the walls.
St Mary Major is another one ofthe major basilicas dedicated
to Our Lady that has a Holy Door.
And then St John Lateran, whichis actually the Cathedral of
(22:53):
Rome, has the other one, andthose three are from the
pontificate of John Paul II andthen the one at St Peter's is
from the pontificate of Pius XII.
So we always had these doorways.
But the doors themselves arerelatively new, especially in
Rome, like 1950, they're like,yeah, that's like yesterday
compared to the basilica itself,right From the Renaissance.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I've got a very quick follow-up question for you.
You mentioned something aboutthe Pope creating a fifth door
for this Jubilee.
Can you talk a little bit onthe process of how a new door is
created?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So that's a good question, and I don't exactly
know.
I think he makes the decisionand says this is what we're
doing.
And I feel like Pope Francisdoes that a lot.
But it's interesting, in theyear of mercy, which we
referenced earlier, the 2016,they actually had this kind of
thing where let's put doors inall the pilgrimage sites.
So you might remember, in 2016,there was like a special holy
(23:48):
door, even at the Basilica atNotre Dame, and it was basically
just one of the doors wasdesignated okay, this is the
holy door and this is the dooryou walk through on your
pilgrimage, and it's not.
I mean, it's always open, right, it's never closed.
So people anticipated thatwould happen again in 2025,
which is kind of funny, becausethe Vatican came out and said,
(24:08):
no, the only holy doors are inRome, like there are no other
holy doors, they're just in Rome.
So then the chapels and theshrines that had closed their
doors to market as a holy doorto open it in 2025 was like, oh
no, what do we do now?
Like, do we open this door now?
Do we keep it closed?
What do we do?
So it's kind of funny theVatican didn't announce very
quickly that there was onlygoing to be, they were only
(24:29):
going to be these five.
But um, so in 2016, there werelots of holy doors and um but.
So I think even there's been amisunderstanding from people,
because they they think, oh, ifthere's only five holy doors,
that means I have to go to Romeand I'm I'm missing out on the
indulgence because I can't go toRome.
And so I'm glad you brought up,josh, that, like, the Basilica
is still a place of pilgrimage,even if there's not technically
(24:51):
this holy door, but that theholy doors are in Rome.
So I think Pope Francis justdecided, you know, it would be
really good, as if theseprisoners had access to that as
well, and I think it's prettycool.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I was incredibly wowed and amazed at that.
I mean, it's just so beautifulto give every person, in every
walk of life, the opportunityand I mean even for those who
are unable to travel to Rome.
This year, it's been a greatgrace, working here at Verso to
drill home the understandingthat everyone's a pilgrim always
, and we're pilgrims on ajourney, the journey of life,
(25:24):
you know, and it doesn't juststart and stop in a journey to
Rome or even this year, but it'sreally a lifelong pilgrimage
that we're on at the end of theday.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I love that John Paul , our founder, our boss, really
talks about that a lot, becauseI think it would be tempting as
a pilgrimage company to just say, no, you all have to go on
pilgrimage, right.
To be a pilgrim, you have totravel, and here, here are our
upcoming trips, and so I thinkit's just so edifying that
that's where John Paul's visioncomes from is this idea that
we're all pilgrims and we're allcalled to be this pilgrimage of
life that ends in heaven.
I just think it's reallyedifying to work for a place
(26:01):
that sees pilgrimage in that wayand not just we're a business
that we want you to travel, butactually, if you can't travel,
that's okay, we're going to helpyou anyway.
We're going to do a podcast,we're going to you know that's.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, and the way in which a physical pilgrimage can
be incorporated into your life,Like it's not these kind of
separate things, but rather youcan take, if you're blessed to
go on a pilgrimage to Romeduring the Holy Year even how
that can be incorporated intothis grand pilgrimage that we're
all on.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, as we wrap up, because we're almost to our time
, we're going to get kicked outof the room we're recording in,
I'm going to turn the tables andI'm going to ask you each if
you could go on pilgrimagetomorrow.
So money's not an object.
Classes aren't an object,doesn't matter when would you go
(26:52):
on pilgrimage and why?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And I'm going to start with Olivia.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
do you want to take this one first?
Oh, that's a good question.
Well, I think something thatmatters to me when I'm thinking
about religion and what it meansto me.
It's very deeply personal andfor me it's very connected to my
family.
Um, if I was to go onpilgrimage tomorrow, I would go.
I would go to Sicily, actually,where it's, which is where my
family is from, where my grandmawas born, where she immigrated
(27:16):
from, and though it might not bein Rome proper, where all the
holy doors are, I think beingable to go to a place where you
know that helped raise my family, that was the birthplace of my
grandmother and of my family,where our roots are, would be
extremely meaningful to me andhopefully seek out some
opportunities to better thattown and better that city where
(27:39):
she came from.
While I'm there, in the spiritof pilgrimage itself, Um, I
would go there because of itsclose family connection and
opportunities to help bettersomething that made someone that
helped better me, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, to give that return, yeah absolutely I.
That reminds me absolutely Ithat reminds me of.
There's a there's a tradition Ithink it's in england and it's
on their mother's day that yougo to the church that you were
baptized in, because that's thechurch, like that was what gave
you birth, right, right that'swhat gave you new birth and so,
like I was just thinking, liketo go to the church, possibly in
sicily, where your grandmotherwas baptized, or where the faith
(28:17):
, like you can like, like, traceyour own faith back.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I've been there, actually to the church where my
grandma was baptized.
It was an incredibly meaningfulexperience to me just seeing it
, but I definitely understandwhat you're saying.
That's really beautiful.
It's 2000 miles across theocean, but it's still kind of
felt a little bit like home.
All right, josh, wow, that'sincredibly beautiful.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Well, I've got a lot of different places I would
probably go.
I don't know If we're packingmy bags tonight and flying
tomorrow.
I've been wanting to journey toFrance, especially to see the
shrine, the place of Our Lady ofLourdes or she the apparition,
(28:59):
just because I've had anincredibly deep devotion to hers
from early days of beforeconfirmation.
And now getting to be at theUniversity of Notre Dame where
we have our own little grotto Ithink it's a seventh of the size
but dedicated to Our Lady ofLourdes, would be very
meaningful and a great blessing.
To get the journey there and becloser to that apparition and
to our lady of lords would bevery meaningful and a great
blessing to get the journeythere and be closer to that
(29:21):
apparition and to our mother soI love that in the grotto at
notre dame there's that littlerock that you can touch.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
That's from the grotto at lords, and I love that
.
I think not everyone knows youknow that little that it's there
and like you're touching francewhen you're.
I hope they haven't done thattoo much, because then they'd
have to rebuild the grotto likethey've, like you know, given
all the rocks away.
It's a pretty big place though,so I like that answer.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
that's a good answer, like I think, of the grotto at
notre dame and it's just such aspecial place and it's a very
magnificent place, and seeingsomewhere that's seven times the
size would be, I don't evenknow what that would look like.
That's amazing, joni, do you?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
have a place where you'd love to pilgrimage.
We're turning the question backon you.
Yeah, well, when you weretalking about family homes, I
would love to go to my mother'sfrom Slovenia, my mother's
family.
So I've always wanted to gothere even more for you know the
family connection and thenatural beauty.
But if I was picking like astrictly like religious shrine,
you know, I would probably sayMexico City.
I'm going in November, but if Icould go tomorrow, I probably
(30:27):
would go tomorrow because of OurLady of Guadalupe and just that
gift that she has been to ourcountry.
I think just that, thetestimony, the evangelization,
the power of light into aculture of darkness, yeah, I
just want to see the Tilma withmy own eyes, and so I am going
in November, but if I could gotomorrow, I would go.
(30:47):
I'd go see Our Lady ofGuadalupe tomorrow, that's
beautiful.
Great answer.
Well, thanks for joining me,both of you.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Thank you.
It's been such a joy to be here.
I feel like I've learned a lot.
Certainly, and hopefully allthose listening have learned
just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
maybe I think you guys might take over the podcast
.
I'll just hand the hosting overto you.
We might get so many reviewsthat forget, forget Joni, like
we'll take.
We'll take Josh and Oliviainstead.
But thanks, listeners, forlistening.
Hopefully you did learn alittle bit about the Jubilee and
how you can be a Pilgrim ofHope.
And this begins our secondseason of In Via, where we will
look at the Jubilee.
(31:22):
We'll be looking at St Peter's,we'll be looking at other
churches in Rome.
We'll be looking at CarloAcutis, who's going to be
canonized this year.
We'll be looking at PierGiorgio Frassati, who will be
canonized.
So we have lots of greatepisodes coming for you in this
second season of NVEA.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
(31:44):
individual looking for a trip,verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
dates and for more information.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
To kick off this second seasonof Envia, two of our interns at
Verso Ministries are taking overthe podcast Olivia and Josh,
(00:41):
both students at the Universityof Notre Dame, are interviewing
me today as we begin this secondseason to look at all things
Jubilee.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hi Joni, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I am great.
I'm excited to talk about theJubilee.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
We are excited to hear about it.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So I'm here with two interns, josh and Olivia.
They're taking over the podcastto ask questions about the
Jubilee, although you probablyknow more than most people.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
I've certainly heard a little bit about it just from
being on the campus of NotreDame.
We certainly talk in theCatholic circles about it.
I'm not sure about you, Olivia.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, agreed, I think you hear a little bit about it
at Notre Dame, but it wasn'tuntil I started working here at
Verso till I really got a littlebit of insight into what the
Jubilee is.
But you know more than both ofus combined, probably.
So we're very excited to talkto you about this.
Do you want to give us a briefoverview of what the Jubilee is
and kind of when it started?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah.
So that's one of those bigquestions that people want like
a 30 second answer to and it'slike, okay, do I start with the
old Testament.
Like how far back do we want togo?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Let's go all the way back, why not?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So the Jubilee actually started in Leviticus 25
, when God asked the Israelitesto observe.
First he says you know, couldyou observe a sabbatical year?
Well, he didn't say could?
Like he wasn't asking them, hewas telling them.
And he said I want you, everyseven years, to observe this
sabbatical year, this year ofrest.
I mean we think of sabbaticalsas like professors going on
sabbaticals where they've beenteaching a long time and now
(02:10):
they get a break.
But it's actually, it's fromthe you know, the Sabbath, the
idea of Sabbath.
And so every seven years,israelites were supposed to take
a break, they were supposed torest and the land was even
supposed to rest.
You can see in the OldTestament God talks about the
land needs its Sabbath, and so Ithink that's just a really
beautiful reminder to us of theneed for rest and the trust in
the Lord that if the land isgoing to rest every seven years,
(02:33):
that means I need to trust thathe's going to provide for me
when I'm not tilling and keepingand reaping and all that good
stuff, right?
So every seven years.
So they were supposed toobserve this sabbatical year and
we find out they actually don't.
They don't obey the Lord andthat's one of the reasons for
the exiles into Assyria andBabylon.
But every seven sabbaticalyears they were supposed to
(02:55):
observe a jubilee year.
So in Leviticus we see thisdirection to have a jubilee year
of celebration, and it reallywas a jubilee year of mercy.
And so the people were supposedto learn mercy by showing mercy
.
So it was radical.
I mean, debts were forgiven,prisoners were freed.
If you had gotten land fromsomebody, you were returning
(03:15):
that land back to its originalowners.
Like this was radical mercyevery 50 years.
But it was of course a physicalreminder of the spiritual mercy
that God wanted to show right.
So it's not about release frombondage for physical slavery,
but release from the bondage ofsin.
So in Isaiah we see Isaiahprophesying that the Messiah was
(03:36):
going to bring the Jubilee, wasgoing to bring this year of
favor, and that's one of themessianic prophecies in Isaiah
that Christ fulfills.
So we go to Luke 4, and in Luke4, christ goes into the
synagogue, he opens the scrolland he reads this prophecy from
Isaiah that talks about a yearof favor, and so we might glance
over that and not reallyrealize what a year of favor is,
(03:57):
but the Jews would haverealized that's a jubilee.
So the jubilee that started inthe Old Testament Testament that
was supposed to be a physicalreminder of the Lord's mercy is
really restored and fulfilled inChrist, who comes to bring the
real mercy, who comes to bringthe real freedom and the real
Jubilee.
So that's really an unleashingof grace through indulgences,
(04:31):
through certain acts of mercythat then are given great grace,
acts of pilgrimage.
And so Boniface VIII calls thisfirst Christian year of jubilee
, hearkening back to thatmessianic j Jubilee.
And now we celebrate them every25 years in the church.
Wow, so there's your, not 30,second answer.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
That's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I think it's so great though, to have you know you
can have time kind of in theshort term on, you know, every
Sunday to call, call back, torest, but to have those longer
periods of time.
I think it's incredibly helpfuland I love kind of the focus
the focus in on a virtue or thefocus in on something of the
sort, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, like we're supposed to be focusing on hope
this year, and so it kind ofredirects us in that year of
favor to hope.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, you know that's so interesting.
I might go on a little bit of atangent here, so stop me, but
I'm an Italian student here atNotre Dame and it's so
interesting that you mentionedPope Boniface starting the first
Jubilee, because that wasaround the time when Dante was
writing his Inferno and somemight even call him like one of
the first pilgrims.
So that's just such a littleinteresting tidbit of history to
me that you bring that up.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, we see in Dante's Divine Comedy his
reference to the Jubilee hisreference like he.
Some people think he was writingthis, like you said, as the
first pilgrim, um, and so everyJubilee kind of has a little you
know little bit of history.
But I think that idea thatDante being the pilgrim and
writing the divine comedy,within the Jubilee he makes
(06:01):
certain references like to theveil of Veronica on display at
St Peter's in, I think, inparadise, I think, and it's just
, yeah, it's really neat to kindof place it within the broader
cultural history as well.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So interesting.
So what does a typical Jubileelook like today?
Like when a pilgrim gets toRome for this Jubilee.
What does one do?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So the Jubilee years in Rome really are times of
pilgrimage.
Obviously that's how theJubilee started, was pilgrims
came to Rome.
It's kind of neat.
Actually, Boniface VIII calledthe Jubilee in response to a lay
initiative, so it wasn'tactually really his idea.
We don't think.
We think it was actually theidea of the laity to go on
pilgrimage.
They were always going onpilgrimage.
I mean, they had been going onpilgrimage for 1,300 years.
But in 1299, we see this influxof pilgrims who are really
(06:45):
seeking the Lord's favor, whoare seeking the Lord's mercy,
and Boniface is like whoa, whatare all these people doing here?
And there's an idea that thepeople actually thought there
would be this kind of specialjubilee, which is kind of neat.
So it was really a layinitiative because they knew
they needed the Lord's mercy andthey needed the Lord's help.
And so that's still a hallmarkof the Jubilee right, Going to
(07:05):
Rome.
You don't have to go to Rome.
There are other ways to receivethe graces of this year, even
if you can't go to Rome.
But really the Jubilee really iscentered in Rome in a special
way.
And so you make pilgrimage,particularly to the tombs of the
apostles Peter and Paul, so yougo to the basilicas of Peter
and Paul.
And then I think one thing wecan't forget is that you are
(07:26):
called to make a good confessionand receive the sacraments,
because that's where we find theLord's mercy.
So it's not about all theselike works that I do, but that
this pilgrimage is to this placeof prayer where I pray for the
Holy Father and I pray at thetomb of Peter and I receive the
sacraments.
Like that, we can't, we can'tforget that.
We can't, you know,underestimate the power of the
(07:47):
sacrament of confession andcommunion.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I mean, I think it's incredibly helpful to be
reminded of that, because it'snot just a matter of doing
certain things, but thetransformation of your heart.
As you're speaking to Um.
Yeah, I remember back um youmentioned every 25 years is a
Jubilee.
I remember back.
I want to say there was one.
I don't remember the last.
I wasn't alive in 2000, but butI do remember there was one
(08:13):
back, maybe 10 years ago or so2016 um, yeah, I wonder so.
Are there sometimes specialjubilees or of something of the
sort?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
yeah.
So thanks for thanks for makingme feel old, josh that you
weren't alive.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
No, I'm just teasing.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Um, I actually really love to work with you guys
because it reminds me that yeah,I mean, it reminds me of my age
and wisdom.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
But, um, but it also keeps me young.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
It keeps me young.
Um so 2000 was the lastordinary Jubilee.
John Paul II really saw hispontificate as bringing the
church into the new millennium,and so it was called the Great
Jubilee of 2000.
And it was.
There were just really powerfulmoments in that year, but Pope
Francis called an extraordinaryyear of Jubilee, and so the
popes can call extraordinaryJubilees whenever they want.
(08:56):
So it's funny because when I'vebeen talking lately about the
Jubilee to people and I sayevery 25 years, every 25 years,
they're like wait a minute, Ithought there was one in 2016.
So 2016 was a year of mercy andI think it was just really
Francis looking around andseeing what we need, kind of
like the year of hope.
I think Francis looked aroundand decided we needed some hope
(09:16):
but, he called thisextraordinary year.
Another example is in 1983, JohnPaul II called an extraordinary
jubilee because of theanniversary of the incarnation.
The thought is that in 2033,there will be another
extraordinary jubilee becauseit'll be kind of traditionally
the 2000th anniversary of thedeath of our Lord.
(09:38):
So the thought is that 2033might be an extraordinary, but
so different popes will callextraordinary.
Is that 2033 might be anextraordinary, but so different
popes will call extraordinary,like extra, extra grace.
We need extra grace.
So you remember that one.
So yeah, it was about 10 yearsago.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
That's super great to know.
I mean, I I can only remembervaguely so to be a little bit
older now and see sort of allthe the bustle around the
Jubilee, especially getting tobe around a college campus and
within a company here at Versothat's kind of specializes in
travel and seeing a lot ofpeople travel.
It's exciting to see people soeager about the Jubilee year,
(10:17):
but I know myself I won't beable to travel to Rome this year
.
I won't be able to visit orkind of see the festivities.
So what would that look likefor those who might not be able
to travel?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, so I think it is.
It is important for us torealize that this Jubilee is for
everyone and not to just kindof disregard it if you can't.
There's been a lot of talkabout Rome, right, and this
special podcast season is goingto focus on Rome and the Jubilee
, obviously, but everybody'scalled to the Jubilee and
everybody can participate in theJubilee, and there's a few.
There's a document that PopeFrancis wrote and then out of
(10:49):
that document it's called hopedoes not disappoint.
It's really beautiful.
Out of that document came adecree on various indulgences,
different graces.
Some people get worried aboutthat word indulgence, but it's
just different ways that theLord is going to give us grace,
different ways we can get gracethis year, and one of my
favorites is to make apilgrimage to Christ present in
our neighbor, that Christ ispresent in the homebound, christ
(11:13):
is present in the sick, he'spresent in the imprisoned, and
so you actually don't have to goto Rome.
You can go next door, right.
You can go to the nursing homedown the street, where people
are lonely and in need of hope,and you can make a pilgrimage to
christ present in them.
So there are lots of ways tostill to still celebrate this
jubilee, even if you can't go torome, because we're all called
to be pilgrims of hope, and so Ithink it's really a call to
(11:36):
search our own lives and say,how can I bring hope to someone
today, how can I be this, thisinstrument of hope in a world
that sometimes is reallyhopeless or seems really
hopeless?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I'm not sure about you, olivia, but I know at the
Basilica of the Sacred Hearthere in Notre Dame there's been
mentioned how that the churchhas been designated as kind of a
special church.
What does that kind of factorinto our lives here?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, so that's another way that you can kind of
celebrate the Jubilee even ifyou can't go to Rome is that
there's only certain holy doors,and we can talk about holy
doors in a second.
There's only a few holy doors,and the holy doors are in
basilicas in Rome, but thatdoesn't mean there aren't other
pilgrimage places, and so theBasilica of the Sacred Heart has
been designated by BishopRhodes as a pilgrimage site.
(12:27):
The Pope asked the bishops ofthe dioceses to designate
certain churches in theirdioceses usually maybe the
cathedral or ones like theBasilica that have historic
significance as pilgrimageplaces, and so someone could
come on pilgrimage to the campusof the University of Notre Dame
and it would be a beautifulpilgrimage, right?
We could help them, we couldtell them everything they need
to see and do.
We actually had an episode inlast season about the Basilica
(12:48):
with one of the tour guides andlike the riches that are here on
campus.
But so you can make apilgrimage to one of these sites
and, even if you can't go toRome, you can still make that
intentional journey.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
If we're talking a little bit about intentional
journeys before we move on tothe Holy Doors, I have one more
question for you.
I know during a Jubilee yearthere's a whole year when you
could go on pilgrimage, and hereat Verso we have trips running
almost the whole year round.
Is there any significance togoing at a specific time, or why
would people choose one timeover another?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, so that's a great question.
I mean, I would say, go onpilgrimage whenever you can
right Like whenever you wheneverthe opportunity is, so don't
don't get discouraged if you'relike well, it's just not in the
plans for 2025 because I haveclass or I don't have any money
or right Like there's.
There's lots of times that Ithink the Lord calls us to
himself.
I'd say the best time to go onpilgrimage is when you feel the
(13:41):
Lord is calling you into thatrelationship, because it's all
like a pilgrimage.
Is that intentional journey?
Anybody can go on vacation,right?
Anybody can just decide okay, Ihave some expendable income,
I'm going to go see theColosseum in Rome.
But a pilgrim is one who says,yeah, I'd love to see the
Colosseum in Rome, but I'm goingto go with that intention, with
open hands and an open heart,ready to see what the Lord has
(14:04):
in store for me on thispilgrimage.
And so you know you can go onpilgrimage anytime, if you just
even down the street, if youjust ask the Lord to work
through that journey.
So you know, I could definitelyrecommend certain times to go to
Rome.
The Jubilee year would be oneof those times, because it's
just full of grace and I don'tlike crowds, but there is
(14:28):
something really exhilaratingabout being there with so many
other people who were there forthe Jubilee.
So I was there in January,which is a great time to go to
Rome because it's off season, sothe crowds weren't intense like
they might be this summer, butjust to be there with people
from all over the world.
And to you know, there'scertain events this year that
(14:48):
celebrate, like we just took agroup to the Jubilee of Deacons
and 10% of the world's permanentdeacons were in Rome for this
event.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Isn't that crazy, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And so there are specific events you might want
to go to, just to be surroundedby people from all over the
world.
Sometimes we lose track of thatin the States the universality
of the church, the history ofthe church.
So there are particular momentsI would suggest going, but
really anytime.
I mean, in Rome the fall isbeautiful, christmas is
wonderful because it's offseason, but really the idea of
(15:22):
that pilgrimage is when is theLord calling you closer to
himself through this pilgrimageand this journey?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, that's a great answer, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
It's been so incredible to see the impact
that certain pilgrims have hadgoing to Rome, visiting Rome,
getting to work here in Verso, Ithink.
I mean we had a call earlierthis morning of a deacon who was
actually on the trip you werementioning.
I think Olivia could probablyspeak more about it because you
got to speak with him right.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I did.
I spoke to one of the deaconswho went on the Jubilee of
Deacons trip and he was just soexcited and just felt so blessed
to be able to attend that tripand he spoke about a moment when
him and 2,400 other deacons allwalked in at the same time to a
church in Rome, I believe, andhe just said it was breathtaking
to just see, like you know,this expression of Christ, like
(16:08):
in Rome with all of these otherdeacons.
It was an experience that forhim, was once in a lifetime and
he could not speak enoughpositive things about it.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It's pilgrimage can be a very life-changing
opportunity.
Yeah, it just.
I think it unites you in the tothe church in such a unique way
and in the church yes, the Popeand you know the magisterium
and all of that highfalutinstuff, but think about it, the
Holy Father wasn't even at theJubilee for deacons because he
was in the hospital and so italso unites you to your brothers
and sisters in Christ in such aparticular way.
(16:41):
That was one thing that touchedme at World Youth Day.
A lot of us went to World YouthDay at Verso and I think a lot
of people were like, oh, I'mgoing to go see the Pope, but
you were actually probablyrarely going to see the Pope.
He was going to drive by, hewas going to be really far away.
Right, josh, you were at WorldYouth.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Day right.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I was actually more touched with the encounter with
Christ in my neighbor, in theuniversality of the church, even
more.
Do you agree?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
with that.
I couldn't agree more, though,especially with the sheer number
of people that you get to.
I mean, the visualization ofthe universality of the church
is unlike anything I've everseen at World Youth Day, and I
mean, I think to have anencounter like that in Rome this
year perhaps, or even, likeyou're saying, just the
encounter with your next doorneighbor perhaps.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
It doesn't have to be grand all the time, but it's
incredibly, incredibly powerful.
Yeah, I love that the deaconhad that kind of that ability to
reflect on that moment too.
You know, cause that's anotherimportant thing of pilgrimage is
when you get home to look backat those moments that touched
you and to take that moment toprocess it.
I think sometimes we just comeback and we go into our everyday
life but process it and seewhat was the Lord doing and
maybe I won't see it for a fewweeks or even a few years what
(17:56):
the Lord was doing in thatmoment.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, absolutely Keeping those moments present in
your mind, everything thatstands out to you and even the
little moments that just canchange someone's worldview.
That's very important.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Oh yeah, I've got.
I've got to ask now like what's, what's the deal with the holy
doors?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
here Because.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I don't know if I've ever been through a holy door,
but I have been hearing a lotabout them.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So I hadn't really been.
I hadn't been through a holydoor, I don't think, until this
past month, which is crazy,because I had lived in Rome.
I've lived in Rome twice.
I've been to Rome because I hadlived in Rome.
I've lived in Rome twice.
I've been to Rome.
I don't know 15, 20 times.
I've been to St Peter's.
How many times?
Right, and I don't think Iwalked through in 2016 in the
(19:02):
Holy Door.
I don't recall, I don'tremember it.
So I don't think I'd ever beenthrough a Holy Door until this
last month.
So the Holy Doors are only openduring Jubilee years, which is
why I've been to St Peter's ahundred thousand times and never
walked through the.
I've been.
I've probably been like, I'vegotten into St Peter's Basilica
in probably a dozen differentdoors in different ways,
(19:22):
including from the roof neverwalked through.
So the the holy door is aspecial door and it's only open
during Jubilee years and it'sactually bricked up three of the
four.
So there's four holy doors inthe four major basilicas.
This year there's actually afifth holy door Pope Francis
made in one of the prisons inRome so that the prisoners could
(19:43):
participate in this incredibleyear of mercy.
Isn't that amazing?
Yeah.
I wish you all could see Josh'sface.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And I just had to tell you that he was like what?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So, yeah, there's a, there's a holy door in the
prison, so I did not walkthrough that door, but we walked
through the other four andthey're bricked up.
In three of the four doorsthey're basilicas.
They're bricked up on the back.
St Paul's side of the walls has, like, another door behind the
door, but they're only openduring Jubilee, it's.
It's not that like, oh, you canonly walk through these doors
(20:15):
because they zap you and dosomething special during Jubilee
years, um, but that this it's asign that it is this year of
the Lord's mercy, that it isthis year of favor, um, I
actually kind of think about thefact that there were these
gates in Rome that during thepagan era that were only open,
um, or maybe they were closed.
They were either open or closedduring times of peace, and so
(20:36):
it kind of reminds me of that.
Like this is like this outwardsymbol that something's
different.
You know that something'sdifferent now, but you walk
through these doors and that'sthat's kind of a sign that your
pilgrimage has ended right.
You walk through these doorsand you've made your pilgrimage,
you've made it to the.
I mean think about the peoplethat used to walk from England
and go on foot to, you know, toto Rome on pilgrimage during a
(20:58):
Jubilee.
That would be a huge deal towalk through those doors and be
like I've made it, um.
But I always remind people yourpilgrimage actually doesn't end
there, because you you have totake the fruits of the
pilgrimage home.
And this is really thebeginning, right, because you've
been transformed, you've hadthese experiences and now you go
(21:19):
pilgrimage home and this isreally the beginning, right,
because you've been transformed,you've had these experiences
and now you go back home.
But so the holy doors arereally dear to me, because I
wrote a Bible study book prayerreflection on the door at St
Peter's.
But really the door is Christ,right, and John Paul II said
that in the Jubilee year Christis the entrance to the Father,
he is the gate, he is the sheepgate, he is the door.
And so the doors are justreally outward manifestations of
(21:39):
that inward disposition that wewant to come to the Father and
that we want to be transformedand start anew again.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Joni trivia question for you Can you name all four
holy doors, which I'm sure youcan?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So the one I wrote the book on and the one I think
that's most famous, is the HolyDoor at St Peter's Basilica.
And I think it's most famousbecause that's actually the one
that Holy Father traditionallyopens, and he opens out on
Christmas Eve, prior to a holyyear.
So you can see actually areally beautiful picture of this
past.
Christmas Eve, francis was inhis wheelchair and so he needed
(22:13):
help opening the door.
In 2000, john Paul II was sobent over with his Parkinson's
that it was difficult for him toeven walk through the door.
So there's really beautifulmoments that come to us from
these doors, from these moments.
Then St Paul, outside the walls,has one of the oldest holy
doors.
The holy doors have kind ofbeen redone, but they've always
(22:33):
been there.
Does that make sense?
So like they've always hadthese, we've always had these
doors since, like I don't know,the 16th century maybe, but
we've gotten new, actual doors,and so the ones are the ones at
St Paul's at the walls.
St Mary Major is another one ofthe major basilicas dedicated
to Our Lady that has a Holy Door.
And then St John Lateran, whichis actually the Cathedral of
(22:53):
Rome, has the other one, andthose three are from the
pontificate of John Paul II andthen the one at St Peter's is
from the pontificate of Pius XII.
So we always had these doorways.
But the doors themselves arerelatively new, especially in
Rome, like 1950, they're like,yeah, that's like yesterday
compared to the basilica itself,right From the Renaissance.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I've got a very quick follow-up question for you.
You mentioned something aboutthe Pope creating a fifth door
for this Jubilee.
Can you talk a little bit onthe process of how a new door is
created?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So that's a good question, and I don't exactly
know.
I think he makes the decisionand says this is what we're
doing.
And I feel like Pope Francisdoes that a lot.
But it's interesting, in theyear of mercy, which we
referenced earlier, the 2016,they actually had this kind of
thing where let's put doors inall the pilgrimage sites.
So you might remember, in 2016,there was like a special holy
(23:48):
door, even at the Basilica atNotre Dame, and it was basically
just one of the doors wasdesignated okay, this is the
holy door and this is the dooryou walk through on your
pilgrimage, and it's not.
I mean, it's always open, right, it's never closed.
So people anticipated thatwould happen again in 2025,
which is kind of funny, becausethe Vatican came out and said,
(24:08):
no, the only holy doors are inRome, like there are no other
holy doors, they're just in Rome.
So then the chapels and theshrines that had closed their
doors to market as a holy doorto open it in 2025 was like, oh
no, what do we do now?
Like, do we open this door now?
Do we keep it closed?
What do we do?
So it's kind of funny theVatican didn't announce very
quickly that there was onlygoing to be, they were only
(24:29):
going to be these five.
But um, so in 2016, there werelots of holy doors and um but.
So I think even there's been amisunderstanding from people,
because they they think, oh, ifthere's only five holy doors,
that means I have to go to Romeand I'm I'm missing out on the
indulgence because I can't go toRome.
And so I'm glad you brought up,josh, that, like, the Basilica
is still a place of pilgrimage,even if there's not technically
(24:51):
this holy door, but that theholy doors are in Rome.
So I think Pope Francis justdecided, you know, it would be
really good, as if theseprisoners had access to that as
well, and I think it's prettycool.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I was incredibly wowed and amazed at that.
I mean, it's just so beautifulto give every person, in every
walk of life, the opportunityand I mean even for those who
are unable to travel to Rome.
This year, it's been a greatgrace, working here at Verso to
drill home the understandingthat everyone's a pilgrim always
, and we're pilgrims on ajourney, the journey of life,
(25:24):
you know, and it doesn't juststart and stop in a journey to
Rome or even this year, but it'sreally a lifelong pilgrimage
that we're on at the end of theday.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I love that John Paul , our founder, our boss, really
talks about that a lot, becauseI think it would be tempting as
a pilgrimage company to just say, no, you all have to go on
pilgrimage, right.
To be a pilgrim, you have totravel, and here, here are our
upcoming trips, and so I thinkit's just so edifying that
that's where John Paul's visioncomes from is this idea that
we're all pilgrims and we're allcalled to be this pilgrimage of
life that ends in heaven.
I just think it's reallyedifying to work for a place
(26:01):
that sees pilgrimage in that wayand not just we're a business
that we want you to travel, butactually, if you can't travel,
that's okay, we're going to helpyou anyway.
We're going to do a podcast,we're going to you know that's.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, and the way in which a physical pilgrimage can
be incorporated into your life,Like it's not these kind of
separate things, but rather youcan take, if you're blessed to
go on a pilgrimage to Romeduring the Holy Year even how
that can be incorporated intothis grand pilgrimage that we're
all on.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, as we wrap up, because we're almost to our time
, we're going to get kicked outof the room we're recording in,
I'm going to turn the tables andI'm going to ask you each if
you could go on pilgrimagetomorrow.
So money's not an object.
Classes aren't an object,doesn't matter when would you go
(26:52):
on pilgrimage and why?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And I'm going to start with Olivia.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
do you want to take this one first?
Oh, that's a good question.
Well, I think something thatmatters to me when I'm thinking
about religion and what it meansto me.
It's very deeply personal andfor me it's very connected to my
family.
Um, if I was to go onpilgrimage tomorrow, I would go.
I would go to Sicily, actually,where it's, which is where my
family is from, where my grandmawas born, where she immigrated
(27:16):
from, and though it might not bein Rome proper, where all the
holy doors are, I think beingable to go to a place where you
know that helped raise my family, that was the birthplace of my
grandmother and of my family,where our roots are, would be
extremely meaningful to me andhopefully seek out some
opportunities to better thattown and better that city where
(27:39):
she came from.
While I'm there, in the spiritof pilgrimage itself, Um, I
would go there because of itsclose family connection and
opportunities to help bettersomething that made someone that
helped better me, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, to give that return, yeah absolutely I.
That reminds me absolutely Ithat reminds me of.
There's a there's a tradition Ithink it's in england and it's
on their mother's day that yougo to the church that you were
baptized in, because that's thechurch, like that was what gave
you birth, right, right that'swhat gave you new birth and so,
like I was just thinking, liketo go to the church, possibly in
sicily, where your grandmotherwas baptized, or where the faith
(28:17):
, like you can like, like, traceyour own faith back.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I've been there, actually to the church where my
grandma was baptized.
It was an incredibly meaningfulexperience to me just seeing it
, but I definitely understandwhat you're saying.
That's really beautiful.
It's 2000 miles across theocean, but it's still kind of
felt a little bit like home.
All right, josh, wow, that'sincredibly beautiful.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Well, I've got a lot of different places I would
probably go.
I don't know If we're packingmy bags tonight and flying
tomorrow.
I've been wanting to journey toFrance, especially to see the
shrine, the place of Our Lady ofLourdes or she the apparition,
(28:59):
just because I've had anincredibly deep devotion to hers
from early days of beforeconfirmation.
And now getting to be at theUniversity of Notre Dame where
we have our own little grotto Ithink it's a seventh of the size
but dedicated to Our Lady ofLourdes, would be very
meaningful and a great blessing.
To get the journey there and becloser to that apparition and
to our lady of lords would bevery meaningful and a great
blessing to get the journeythere and be closer to that
(29:21):
apparition and to our mother soI love that in the grotto at
notre dame there's that littlerock that you can touch.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
That's from the grotto at lords, and I love that
.
I think not everyone knows youknow that little that it's there
and like you're touching francewhen you're.
I hope they haven't done thattoo much, because then they'd
have to rebuild the grotto likethey've, like you know, given
all the rocks away.
It's a pretty big place though,so I like that answer.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
that's a good answer, like I think, of the grotto at
notre dame and it's just such aspecial place and it's a very
magnificent place, and seeingsomewhere that's seven times the
size would be, I don't evenknow what that would look like.
That's amazing, joni, do you?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
have a place where you'd love to pilgrimage.
We're turning the question backon you.
Yeah, well, when you weretalking about family homes, I
would love to go to my mother'sfrom Slovenia, my mother's
family.
So I've always wanted to gothere even more for you know the
family connection and thenatural beauty.
But if I was picking like astrictly like religious shrine,
you know, I would probably sayMexico City.
I'm going in November, but if Icould go tomorrow, I probably
(30:27):
would go tomorrow because of OurLady of Guadalupe and just that
gift that she has been to ourcountry.
I think just that, thetestimony, the evangelization,
the power of light into aculture of darkness, yeah, I
just want to see the Tilma withmy own eyes, and so I am going
in November, but if I could gotomorrow, I would go.
(30:47):
I'd go see Our Lady ofGuadalupe tomorrow, that's
beautiful.
Great answer.
Well, thanks for joining me,both of you.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Thank you.
It's been such a joy to be here.
I feel like I've learned a lot.
Certainly, and hopefully allthose listening have learned
just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
maybe I think you guys might take over the podcast
.
I'll just hand the hosting overto you.
We might get so many reviewsthat forget, forget Joni, like
we'll take.
We'll take Josh and Oliviainstead.
But thanks, listeners, forlistening.
Hopefully you did learn alittle bit about the Jubilee and
how you can be a Pilgrim ofHope.
And this begins our secondseason of In Via, where we will
look at the Jubilee.
(31:22):
We'll be looking at St Peter's,we'll be looking at other
churches in Rome.
We'll be looking at CarloAcutis, who's going to be
canonized this year.
We'll be looking at PierGiorgio Frassati, who will be
canonized.
So we have lots of greatepisodes coming for you in this
second season of NVEA.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
(31:44):
individual looking for a trip,verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
dates and for more information.
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