July 16, 2024 • 42 mins
What if the secret to spiritual growth lies within the pages of children's literature? Journey with us as we uncover the profound wisdom embedded in C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia." Joined by Dr. Lenny DiLorenzo from the University of Notre Dame, we promise an exploration that will leave you viewing these classic tales through a new, spiritually enriched lens.
Dr. DiLorenzo shares his fascinating journey leading to his current role at the McGrath Institute for Church Life, revealing his deep involvement in projects like the Inklings Project and the Sullivan Family Saints Initiative. Through this lens, we dive into his edited book, "Chronicles of Transformation: A Spiritual Journey with CS Lewis," which encourages readers to rediscover the magic of Narnia, not just as stories, but as guides for spiritual pilgrimage and maturity. We delve into the importance of maintaining childlike wonder, using characters like Susan and Eustace to illustrate the need for humility and presence in our spiritual lives.
Our conversation delves into the incarnational aspects of Lewis's work, using examples from "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" and "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" to discuss how these adventures mirror our own spiritual challenges. From the pitfalls of becoming too 'grown-up' to the joy found in the unexpected twists of life, we highlight how Narnia serves as a metaphor for our spiritual journeys. This episode is a heartfelt invitation to revisit these timeless tales with fresh eyes and an open heart, finding joy and spiritual renewal in the process.
Order The Chronicles of Transformation here.
Find more about Dr. DeLorenzo here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joan Watson (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
Did you read the Chronicles ofNarnia as a child?
If so, you're going to liketoday's episode.
I'm chatting with Dr LennyDiLorenzo, a professor at the
University of Notre Dame, authorand editor of more than 10
(00:44):
books, including the book we'regoing to talk about today
Chronicles of Transformation.
A Spiritual Journey with CSLewis.
Hi Lenny,
Lenny (00:56):
hi Joan, how are you ?
I'm doing great.
How about you?
Joan Watson (00:58):
Good, very good because I get to talk to you
today?
Lenny (00:59):
Oh, that's nice.
Joan Watson (01:00):
So some of our listeners may not know you,
which is sad for them.
So do you want to start bytelling us three sentences?
I always limit people to three,but I'm very generous, so three
sentences about yourself.
What would you tell people?
Lenny (01:14):
Yeah, go ahead and count them out for me as I go along
but.
I'd maybe just start by sayingI'm from a little bit of
everywhere, a little bit ofnowhere.
I was born in New Jersey, liveda couple places there, spent
some of my childhood inTennessee, both in Central and
in Western Tennessee, but I grewup for the most part in
Southern California and wasthere through high school.
Then I came out here to SouthIndiana, went to Notre Dame and
(01:36):
stayed here.
After had been working, did mygraduate degrees here.
So 25 years in South BendIndiana one sentence Number two
I'm married.
My wife, lisa, is from twoplaces besides here.
She was born an early part ofher life in Fort Wayne or, I'm
sorry, fort Worth, texas, andthen raised in Roanoke, virginia
, before coming here Now.
Sentence three we have six kids.
(01:58):
Our six kids are all from SouthBend, homegrown Hoosiers, and I
spend my time working teachingat Notre Dame in theology in our
McGrath Institute for ChurchLife.
Joan Watson (02:09):
I love it.
I love you're not the firstguest to talk about how they're
kind of from everywhere.
I think this idea of pilgrimagealso, even when guests kind of
think about like where are myroots, it causes them to kind of
think about the fact that, like, do I have roots and where am I
from?
But I love that you're from theEast Coast and the West Coast
and the South and the Midwest.
Lenny (02:29):
Right, I mean you have it all covered.
I got a little bit of sayingsfrom each place and I don't
think I really sound like I'mfrom any of them.
Joan Watson (02:37):
I love it.
You're very well-rounded.
Lenny (02:41):
Okay, thanks
Joan Watson (02:42):
.
So your work at Notre Dame, atMcGrath and we've talked a
little bit about McGrath on theshow actually but you know, what
classes do you teach?
What are you working on?
Now?
We're just about to enter.
Well, this will air in thesummer, so you have the summer,
but what are you working on?
Lenny (02:59):
So I've just finished a year of teaching.
I was actually just teachingintroductory theology courses
this year, which I really like.
It's kind of starting from thebeginning, which I think is a
good place to begin.
And this summer so I guess,maybe while folks are listening
to this I'm teaching in ourmaster's program on the Trinity
and Christian salvation A lot ofpeople who are in our echo
(03:21):
program.
They're being formed to beservants in the church they're
in that master's program orother adults who are interested
in becoming more knowledgeablein theology or something to do
with their work.
They're in that program as well.
So that's why I'm spending agood portion of my summer.
I'm also helping to develop someinitiatives here in our
institute.
One is related to somethingwe're going to talk about today,
(03:44):
cs Lewis but that initiative iscalled the Inklings Project,
where we're working with facultyat a number of different
colleges and universities tosupport them and help them to
build and offer courses andother educational offerings for
students that relate with theInklings in some way.
So a lot of evangelizingpotential in that, especially at
(04:04):
public universities,universities where you're not
having religious studies,theology courses and maybe some
of the spiritual reflection isnot as permitted.
I also work on a couple ofother projects our own podcast
called Church Life Today, andthen something called the
Sullivan Family SaintsInitiative, where we seek to
promote and increase devotion toand scholarship on the saints.
Joan Watson (04:27):
Love it.
And we will have links to allof that in the show notes so
that you can find out more aboutLenny and his work,
Lenny (04:32):
and I'm doing free advertising today, I guess for
campus ministry and for UnderArmour.
So this is non-paid.
I should send a bill.
Joan Watson (04:41):
That's right.
For those of you watching, youcan, yeah, free advertising.
Product placement that's right.
Well, as we talk about findingyour work, product placement and
your projects, we're going totalk a little bit today about a
book that you edited a few yearsago called the Chronicles of
Transformation A SpiritualJourney with CS Lewis, and I was
(05:01):
introduced to the book, I think, shortly after I was on your
podcast.
I was kind of, you know,looking around at what you had
done, and my mom and I weregetting back into CS Lewis.
We were reading a book by him,and I love CS Lewis, I love the
Chronicles, but it had been awhile since I read them, and so
I, instead of rereading theChronicles, which is probably
what I should have done, Ibought your book, which actually
(05:22):
just inspired me to reread themagain, which I think is a great
compliment to the book.
Lenny (05:27):
That's the point.
Joan Watson (05:28):
So today I just kind of want to delve into the
book and just what prompted theChronicles of Transformation.
Lenny (05:37):
Well, you know, some years ago we had started this
small sort of lecture series inLent to Easter and the idea was
to gather people together wherethey would be doing common
reading and they would belearning together.
But as a sort of liturgicaloffering it was also a journey
from Lent through Easter.
So the first time we did thiswe did it with Dante's Divine
(05:58):
Comedy and we offered sort oflike public reading groups.
We assembled a number oflectures, we organized materials
for people so they could readthrough the Divine Comedy,
beginning I think it was AshWednesday and concluding
sometime in the Easter season.
We did that again with just theBook of Exodus, the biblical
Book of Exodus, and then, as athird iteration, we thought well
(06:18):
, let's try and maybe broadenthe reach a little bit, bring in
some younger people as well.
So we did the Chronicles ofNarnia for that.
So we created this offeringwhere people were intentionally
moving together in community inliturgical time and making this
journey through these liturgicalseasons.
Now, part of it was just theidea that we had done that
(06:41):
before.
Right, but what we discovered,I think, in putting this
together and really just movingthrough the Chronicles and
having different people speak onthem and then conversations
with other readers and readinggroups, is that there is a
journey that takes place notonly in the Chronicles but for
the readers if we read them in acertain way.
And of course we did have someyoung people, you know teenagers
(07:04):
, maybe even a little younger,who were doing it.
But we had a lot of you know,card carrying adults who were
doing this as well, probably themajority of the audience both
here at Notre Dame and thenelsewhere, that we were kind of
reaching through digital meansand it was sort of I don't know
if it was an epiphany, but itwas.
It was.
We noticed that there was a newway of engagement of these
(07:26):
chronicles for adults, but itrequired things of us as adults
which in some ways is moredifficult than the way in which
children encounter thechronicles.
Children are just drawn in.
Narnia is I think I write thisin the book Narnia is the
children's world, but adults arealso drawn into that world if,
(07:48):
and only if, they will allowthemselves to be somehow
childlike again and it will drawthem through this journey.
And that childlikeness is not alack of sophistication, it's
kind of post-sophistication, toallow yourself to enjoy, to
marvel at, to struggle with, tomove in and through these
(08:09):
narratives.
It's the way children naturallyencounter narratives, but
sometimes we as adults we get alittle bit too puffed up on our
own sophistication.
Don't let ourselves do that.
So this book was really bornfrom that and it kind of
presents that journey, thatpossibility of that journey to
people.
It is indeed as we would talk,about a kind of pilgrimage, a
(08:29):
literary pilgrimage but aspiritual pilgrimage at the same
time.
Joan Watson (08:33):
Yeah, I think there's a really good
clarification to make, becausewe talk about the pilgrimage of
life that's what this wholepodcast is about and I think
sometimes we just think aboutgrowing older, that the
pilgrimage of life is growingolder and the pilgrimage to
heaven, and so we equate like,oh, I'll get holier the longer I
live, the more I get to, and Ithink this challenges that to
(08:56):
say there's a reason Jesus saysto become children.
And that this pilgrimage of lifeisn't necessarily because
grownups which CS Lewis didn'tlike that term that grownups are
necessarily better thanchildren, but that there's a
spiritual maturity that doesn'tdepend on our age, and so the
pilgrimage of life cannot justbe equated with us growing up.
Lenny (09:16):
Yeah, and sometimes it actually works in the reverse
direction.
So, even within the Chroniclesthemselves, as you would know, a
couple of the characters kindof show Lewis's take on this,
like one of the four childrenwho enters into Narnia first
Susan as she grows older shebecomes too quote unquote grown
up, right, she loses her touchwith the things that really
(09:40):
matter.
She becomes too concerned withand too attached to things that
don't matter these you know,quote unquote adult concerns and
she loses her, she never cankind of enjoy the Narnian things
again.
Now, at the same time, you havea child who's pulled into
Narnia and is already a boringgrown up and used to scrub,
right, and he has to be in someways broken from that,
(10:04):
undragoned, if you will, um, andthat, I think, gives us a
little glimpse into the way inwhich lewis recognized precisely
what you're talking about.
It's not simply a linearjourney or chronological journey
, like the older you get, themore mature, the more the holier
, the more spiritual there is,at the same time as that
(10:25):
chronological progression,another sort of level of journey
that's taking place.
Maybe it's more vertical or Idon't know how you would
describe it, but it does have todo with a conversion,
ever-going conversion tohumility, to trust, to
childlikeness, which is a gospelimage, that we get the humility
(10:46):
and the trust.
Joan Watson (10:47):
Yeah, I always wonder if it's almost like a
spiral journey into ourselves,like if we want to think of the
journey as a direction.
Is it a spiral not intoourselves in a self-centered,
you know navel-gazing way, butinto discovering who we really
are and who we?
Were made to be that sometimeslittle kids have this.
They have a much, much greateridea of who God made them to be
(11:10):
than that adult you know and sothis, this, this spiral
pilgrimage into who we are asChristians and who we are in the
image and likeness of God, andthat discovery of of the Lord in
that
I think that's right.
I think that's right and youknow, I think in those terms
that you're speaking of thissort of spiral journey of, say,
(11:31):
teresa of Avila and her interiorcastle.
And you know, in the outerregions of the castle of the
soul are all the little crittersand all these other things that
constantly pull your attentionaway, that constantly distract
you, that make you sodisintegrated that you would
lose yourself in all the manythings.
And part of the journey, thespiritual journey she's teaching
(11:53):
her sisters and those of us whocome after, is the healthy
detachment from those things,building up the power, the
ability, the capacity forrecollection to be really in one
place at one time, which is theinitial natural ability upon
which those spiritual fruitswill build.
(12:15):
But you will not discover anyof the spiritual fruits of the
more inner realms that Teresatalks about if you do not first
practice and work on thatnatural ability of being
recollected and detached fromthe other things.
And how much is that, you know,apparent in our lives today,
like all the many ways in whichwe're constantly poked at and
(12:38):
our attention is signaled andgrabbed, and how easy it is and
enticing and oftentimesminimally rewarding, to just
split our attention that way andfollow the shiny little lights.
And it is and enticing andoftentimes minimally rewarding
to just split our attention thatway and follow the shiny little
lights.
And it is much harder, perhapsmuch harder today than ever
before, to be recollected, toreally be in one place at one
time and be fully, fully present.
And that is precisely the sortof thing that it takes not only
(13:02):
to be really immersed in a storyyou have to yield to the story
but also to be involved insomething like a pilgrimage,
like it is about definite placeat definite time, with yourself,
with others, and not constantlybeing pulled to other places
and other things, even thoughthose things have a bearing on
you where you are.
(13:22):
Yeah, yeah, we always tell our pilgrims it's
about being in the presentmoment and it's about entering
into that present moment withnothing else.
And that requires attachmentand that requires concentration
and that requires a lot.
And I think sometimes we thinkthat little kids have shorter
attention spans than we do.
But look at a kid readingNarnia, look at a kid entering
(13:43):
into a fantasy world and theyare completely in that world at
that moment.
Lenny (13:47):
Yeah.
Joan Watson (13:48):
And it's not us in our maturity that have larger,
longer attention spans than ourchildren.
Sometimes it's them able tocompletely enter into the story.
Lenny (13:58):
Yeah, they don't need a payoff for it, right, like they
don't have to make something ofit, analyze it, get the point,
find the message, make it useful.
They can just enjoy it, just bethere or be troubled by it or
be sucked into it, or not stopthinking about it.
Joan Watson (14:24):
And because, I mean , I read them as a child, but I
don't have a clear memory ofreading them as a child, except
for the first one, that I thinkgrabbed me the most.
But when I read them as adultsI already knew the story and I
was reading it as an adult andit's very different, and so I
love that you told us how Isaacexperienced it, so that we could
kind of experience it as kidsagain.
Lenny (14:44):
Yeah, I mean, and part of this has to do with the central
figure of Aslan himself.
Let's say, like those of us whocome to the Chronicles of
Narnia as adults, and especiallyif we know something about him
beforehand, we are already hipto the fact that Aslan is a
Christ figure.
Right, yes, he is going toexhibit some of those
characteristics.
He's going to present them tous and we're looking for them
(15:06):
and we're anticipating them.
And when he's taken there's allkinds of spoilers in this
episode, folks.
So just so you know.
So you know, when he's taken offto be sacrificed and you know
it's coming, you're notsurprised, in a way that it's
coming.
You don't feel it because ofcourse he's going to be
sacrificed, and when he appearsagain on the horizon, you're not
(15:28):
that surprised.
Of course he's going to rise.
But that is precisely when Iwas awakened to the difference
between my son, isaac, who wasthen five, and myself
encountering this story.
I just, I mean, I obviously hadalready read it, I knew it, I
knew it was going to happen, butI'm just not surprised by that
kind of narrative arc anymore.
(15:50):
He was utterly devastated andutterly delighted, and there's
something in that, not justabout Narnia but about the
Christian mystery.
Like we've become toodomesticated to the fact that,
oh, he will enter into hispassion and die and rise again,
(16:11):
and we just move, you know,blithely from one to the other,
because this is the way it goesand we have to be shocked by
that over and over again, eventhough we know it.
And I think that's part of thespiritual discipline that adults
can reacquire by yielding tosomething like a children's
(16:31):
story of Narnia, which isn'tjust for children.
Joan Watson (16:34):
Yeah, yes, when I teach adults Lectio Divina, it's
kind of my big thing is we haveto be doing more Lectio Divina
as a church and I always tellpeople you have to try to read
it like you've never heard itbefore.
Whether it's a parable, like aman who had two sons, I don't
care that you know where this isgoing.
Act like you've never heard itand like the the Jesus became
(16:54):
man, that God became man.
Act like you've never, likethat's crazy.
And as a church, we're justlike oh yeah, god became man.
Okay, going on with my day.
No, that's insane, that'sinsanity, but we're so used to
it and we need to become likelittle kids and be surprised by
it again.
Lenny (17:11):
Yeah, you should protest against it.
This is not the way this works.
Like what do you mean?
God became man.
I'm putting this book down forquite some time until I can come
to terms with that.
That's ridiculous, exactly.
Joan Watson (17:23):
The scandal of the incarnation, you would say right
.
So you know, all seven of thebooks include a type of journey,
really, and often a physicaljourney.
Lenny (17:34):
And.
Joan Watson (17:34):
I think there's this idea that we connect to
this image, this story, thatit's an image we can relate to,
but this physical journey is, ofcourse, indication of a
spiritual journey, and that'slike pilgrimage, right, like we
can connect to this physicalpilgrimage.
We get that image, but itreally is speaking about the
interior journey, and so I lovethat Lewis uses these adventures
(17:58):
to that's something we cancling on to.
Lenny (18:01):
But the real story is that interior, that interior
journey for the charactersthroughout the series yeah, and
I think this is part of lewis'sgreat incarnational instinct,
which is that the practical andthe spiritual are not separated.
But in christianity, that whichis most practical is the place
where you will find the deepestspiritual meaning, and that
(18:23):
which is most spiritual is thatwhich is going to be rendered
through the practical matters.
So, by traversing this terrain,by taking seriously the
challenges and the conquests ofNarnia, by undergoing the
various tests, by havingcharacter tried by the choices
that you make in these specificsituations, that's where the
(18:44):
spiritual quality and thevirtues are really being forged.
And it's not over and abovethat or elsewhere, it's right in
the middle of that.
And in some ways I think, or inmany ways I think, that Narnia,
therefore, is not like ametaphor for our world, it's not
a one-to-one allegory of ourworld.
It's in some ways a trainingground, a practice for what it
(19:06):
means to live in this world,well, to reckon with the matters
of responsibility and thecrises of character in practical
matters, because that is thevery terrain that our Lord and
Savior took on as his own.
That's where the spiritualstuff happens.
And we see this again, likeelsewhere in Lewis's corpus,
(19:29):
like, for example, in thatmarvelous little book, the Great
Divorce.
The terrain itself is like acharacter, it's almost the whole
thing that reality is harsh tothe feet of shadows.
It says therefore, and theghosts who come into the
heavenly terrain have to becomeaccommodated to that terrain.
They have to be thickened, andit's happening to them, it seems
(19:50):
somewhat physically, but it'shappening to them in their
passions, in their desires, intheir affections, in their
values and in their loves, andso that which is most interior
is actually affecting themexteriorly, and the terrain
which seems exterior is actuallythe proving ground for what's
inside.
I think this is taking placeall throughout Lewis's fiction,
(20:12):
especially, and we see that allthroughout the Chronicles of
Narnia.
The engagement with the world,the terrain, the crises, matters
Absolutely.
Joan Watson (20:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Just to idea of like um, thisisn't, this isn't just a story,
but this is a, like you said, atraining ground for us.
Where are the lessons to thentake into our everyday life?
Where?
how you know, like the, thecharacters, we all know Peters,
we all know Edmonds, we all knowEustace's.
Maybe we are them and and howlike we are called to go now,
(20:44):
live the life with them and takethese lessons of conversion, of
redemption, of atonement intoour life and, and that's the
reality, and really thespirituality like this is great
divorce, right, the spirituallife is the greater reality.
Um, that's the greater realitythan ever what we can see and
touch, yes, but that discoverywe're going to have to do a
(21:05):
series on just pilgrimage inliterature and you're going to
have to do all the episodes andwe can have an episode on the
great divorce and episode onDante.
And so it'll be great.
So I'll sign you up now.
I think one of the great themesfor me especially in Lion, the
Witch and the Wardrobe, but Ithink in all the things is that
theme of discovery where Lucydiscovers Narnia first and we
(21:28):
don't have to get on the rant.
But I agree with you on theproper order of reading the
books.
That you read.
Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
First, because you need todiscover with Lucy, narnia, and
you need to discover.
But this theme of discovery, Ithink, can also connect to
pilgrimage, that pilgrimageshelp us discover not just the
world but then also ourselves,and so I think we see this theme
(21:51):
of discovery throughout allseven stories, that is, that
discovery of pilgrimage.
Lenny (21:57):
Oh, I think that's absolutely true and I think,
like you're rightly saying, thecharacters are discovering
themselves, but that oftentimescomes belatedly.
They don't just go into acorner and like, think about
themselves right, you're notsaying this uh, struggle and of
(22:20):
self-confrontation, and oftenthe self-confrontation is the
confrontation with, or theencounter with, aslan or his
mission, right?
So you can think about Lucy who, as you rightly said, is the
first one drawn into Nardia anddiscovers the land.
But she really comes to thecrisis of herself, most likely
in the voyage of the DawnTreader, when she's reading
(22:42):
through I forget what the thebook's called, the book that
contains all stories and hercharacter is being tried there
and she has to be converted intothe greater, uh, acceptance of
her story and her greater lovefor aslan and letting go of, uh,
some of these attachments thatshe might otherwise have.
(23:02):
It's a I mean, it's in a, youknow, probably the most
quasi-mystical of the Chronicles, the Voyage of the Dawn Treader
.
It's like, surrounded by a lotof humor, but that particular
trial that Lucy undergoes is atrial indeed.
Or the trial when she has towake up her siblings in Prince
(23:25):
Caspian.
It's a terrible task becauseshe's got to tell them they've
gone the wrong way.
She knows this is painful, buther obedience to her call forces
it upon her.
Either she does that or she'sabandoning herself in some way.
And so that discovery of selfis coming from these tasks,
again, from the place itself,from the one who calls you there
(23:49):
, and you don't know in advancewhere those discoveries are
going to come from, at whatpoint, with whom, with what.
You have to actually go and beopen to discover it.
Joan Watson (24:05):
To live, life to live the life in front of you.
Yeah, that's nice because, yeah,I mean, I think you know it is
this idea nowadays like, oh, I'mgonna go off and discover
myself, right yeah and you havepeople walking the camino, for
example, to go discoverthemselves, and it's like, okay,
actually you're not reallylooking to discover yourself,
you're looking to discover yourmaker, um, and in discovering
god, you're going to discoveryourself.
(24:25):
But that's an important, Ithink, difference that the
characters aren't setting off todiscover themselves, but that
they discover themselves throughthe living of daily life and
the obedience to their mission,and I think that's a really
important clarification.
Yeah, yeah.
Lenny (24:39):
And even right from the beginning, like the one who goes
in looking for something forhimself, is on the wrong journey
.
And that would be Edmund at thebeginning.
Right, he's going to graspsomething, he's trying to
elevate himself and he has.
Well, first of all, he suffersthe terrible consequences of
that personally and then seesthe consequences of his actions
on others.
But he has to be broken fromthat, and it's when he himself
(25:03):
is converted to a mission thathe actually really discovers who
he is and his not just his rolein his place, but also his
dignity and his strength.
Joan Watson (25:14):
Yeah, that's a.
It's a good reminder to us thateven those people who embark on
these missions for the wrongreason, like Edmund, enters
Narnia for the wrong reason.
He begins on the wrong foot butthere's still redemption,
there's still salvation, becauseof his willingness and really
because, in a sense, I mean whenhe gets taken by the White
(25:35):
Witch, it's that death to self,like he's in a bad spot and it's
that his siblings' willingnessto sacrifice themselves for him,
and then obviously aslan'ssacrifice in the best sense.
But yeah um, what is?
This?
Might be a really difficultquestion, but of your seven,
what's what's of the seven,what's your favorite?
Lenny (25:56):
you know, for a while it was the voyage of the dawn
treader.
Just because it's because ofthat sort of more mystical
quality, I had a renewed love ofthe Lion, the Witch and the
Wardrobe.
Actually, as I was firstdeveloping the lecture that then
turned into the chapter I wrotefor this book I, because I was
organizing the whole thing Ijust left myself to the end if I
(26:16):
was going to do one, whateverone, people don't pick and
nobody picked Lion, the Witchand the Wardrobe, right, so I
ended up with that one.
But I really came to love it ina new and deeper way and it was
precisely, by the way I triedto write about it Like this was
my renewed encounter with it.
So there is something aboutthat I love.
But I mean I do enjoy each ofthem.
(26:42):
And you know not to not to sortof shamelessly plug this book,
but the contributors to thisvolume, like what they wrote on
each one was really educationalfor me and eye opening, like I
had never encountered the Horseand His Boy, the way that
Francesca Murphy leads us toencounter that, and it was so
revelatory.
I'd read it, you know, severaltimes and I just saw more deeply
(27:05):
into it and made it moredelightful, or the way in which,
for example, anthony Pagliarinispoke about and really taught
about the misuse of language inthe last battle and the
redemption of language and thestruggle for truth and all that
stuff.
It's totally eye opening, Ithought so I came to a renewed
appreciation for them in thatway.
But to answer your questiondirectly, maybe I maybe picked
(27:28):
the line the witch and thewardrobe.
Joan Watson (27:29):
Yeah, I love it.
It's a hard, that's a hardquestion.
I mean it's a hard.
It's hard to choose because ina sense, they're all very
different and, um, I think atdifferent times of our lives,
probably different ones speak tous.
I've always loved the horse andhis boy in that and this is a
big spoiler, just that image ofAslan showing up in so many
different ways.
(27:50):
I think we can all relate tothat in our lives, where the
Lord is unrecognizable sometimes, and sometimes the Lord even
shows up in ways that we wish hehadn't, and then we realize.
Oh, I'm so glad that happenedright and so that is such an
important part of our lives andour spiritual journey and our
relationship with the lord um.
But I loved when um francescatalked about that like at face
(28:13):
value that story is really.
It seems to be just an escape.
He's escaping but, it really isthis pilgrimage for Shasta to
discover who he is Again thatidea of self journey or it's
self discovery, but in just this, this, every day, he's escaping
and in the end, it's apilgrimage to discover Aslan and
(28:34):
discover who he is.
Like in so many of the otherstories, um, and she even says
like pilgrimage.
Is this natural desire of ourlives that Shasta doesn't know?
He's on a pilgrimage, but Ithink she really opened up for
me too, even though Horse andHis Boy is one of my favorites.
She opened up a really newsense of it for me.
Lenny (28:50):
Yeah, and I think she drew to our attention that,
preceding even his need toescape which that need came
pretty early he realized hisperil, that he had to leave
where he was.
Even before that, there was thedesire for the North, the
curiosity about the North.
The North was calling to him.
And I think you can quickly,you know, when you're getting
(29:11):
into the story trying to figureout what's going on, and here
you get to the beginning of thedrama you forget what preceded
it and that's what preceded ithis desire for the North.
And what Francesca does sobrilliantly is she helps us to
(29:41):
see that this was in many ways areflection of Lewis's own
desire and journey.
She reads the Horse and its boyespecially next to, suprised by
joy, Lewis' own autobiographyand makes the claim she think
the Horse and his Boy is themost autobiographical of all of
Lewis's chronicles, that it washis desire for joy, and he had a
very particular meaning for joy, this unfulfilled longing, this
sort of pain, this piercingthat propelled him forward, even
against himself, and that Ithink she sees as the primary
motivation for Shasta too,himself.
(30:05):
And that I think she sees asthe primary motivation for
Shasta too, which is really thedesire that's coming from Aslan,
himself unnamed, and as yetunknown.
Joan Watson (30:12):
Yes, yes, and again , that idea of that pilgrimage,
that interior desire thatthere's something calling us.
And you do meet people who goon physical pilgrimages and they
don't even know why, butthere's this desire.
I think we see it in somepeople's lives, just in
wanderlust, like they have thisdesire to go and travel and they
don't realize what they'researching for.
(30:33):
But I think they're searchingfor something other than
themselves.
They're searching for thatmeaning, they're searching for
that desire and and that like Ilove what you said like propels
us forward, that desire for theNorth, for Aslan, for heaven.
Something is calling us and so Ithink that's again like a good
pilgrimage connection that weare.
There's this interior desire tomove and that's our, that's our
(30:55):
, our, our spiritual pilgrimage,the spiritual pilgrimage of
life, is that desire to go,maybe outside of ourselves, but
to go to that thing.
I mean that thing that's goingto complete us.
Right, our hearts are restlessuntil they rest in thee, and for
some of us it's that wanderlustand that desire to physically
(31:16):
pilgrimage, but on thatpilgrimage we pray that people
find the north, find Aslan, findthe Lord.
Lenny (31:23):
Yeah, and I think, find the Lord, yeah, and I think this
is the good news ofdissatisfaction, actually, like,
maybe we call it the gospel ofdissatisfaction.
No, that's not right.
But good news ofdissatisfaction, so long as you
are dissatisfied, it is.
There's actually a nugget ofsomething very good in that,
which is it's the flip side, theindication that there's
something more you desire.
It's the flip side, theindication that there's
something more you desire, thatyou're made for more.
(31:45):
The real tragedy and sadnesswould be just blanket
contentment at any point right.
This isn't to just crave afterbeing unsettled, but we are
created to desire and not todouse our desires, not to even
tame them, but actually to allowthem to grow and to be enlarged
(32:08):
, to be directed and ordered.
And we will desire more andmore the closer we get to our
Lord.
And so I think you know, maybethe most prevalent or one of the
most prevalent conditions andfeelings of people today is a
persistent feeling ofdissatisfaction, of
disconnection, of not knowingwhat's wrong but wanting
(32:31):
something else.
And maybe we could think aboutthat as, in a way, it's a slow
motion and silent tragedy, butin another way, it is the silent
throbbing of some good newsLike this isn't it for you,
there is something else and seeksomething else?
Joan Watson (32:50):
Yeah, and that can be that little door opening that
the Lord needs.
Yeah, and that can be thatlittle door opening that the
Lord needs, that in our comfort.
It's like you said, like ifwe're too comfortable and we're
too content, we're not going tosearch.
I was thinking, actually, aboutthis recently when I was
(33:15):
confronted with the Acts of theApostles, when Paul speaks at
Athens and everyone's like, ohOK, we'll hear you about this on
another time.
And then he goes to Corinth andyou would think like, athens is
academic, they're intellectual,they're seeking the truth,
whereas Corinth is prettyvicious, I mean, they're full of
sexual immorality, they're lewdright.
So you think, oh, the betteraudience would be Athens.
But no, he leaves Athens to goto Corinth.
And I thought I wonder ifCorinth makes the better
converts because they aresearching Like that, that that
(33:39):
viciousness is never going tofill their needs.
And so they are searching,whereas Athens can be like.
Oh well, we have our philosophyand we have our answers, and
you know, like it's?
It's a fascinating like Godworks in ways I can't understand
sometimes.
But, is it that contentmentthat is actually bad?
Because you stop searching.
Lenny (33:56):
Yeah, you know, yeah, nothing spoils the taste of good
ordinary food quite so much asbad magic food, which Lewis says
in the first chronicle, right,and in this case, like it may or
may not be bad magic food, butit might be, you know, tasty
little philosophical discourse.
And it might be a pleasant andcordial life and it may be a
(34:17):
comfortable neighborhood and agood enough routine.
And it's hard, I mean, it'shard for me, it's hard for all
of us when we get into thoseplaces because they are so nice
to want to shake out of them.
But one of the things I learnedfrom, say, mother Teresa, I
think one of the secrets to herholiness was her willingness to
leave happiness to find joy.
(34:39):
She left home, which shedescribed as a very happy home,
but she left home to go first toIreland and then to India and
she probably wasn't ever goingto get back to that home, to her
happy home.
And when she was in Indiainitially and she was a sister
(35:00):
of Loretto, she said she hasnever been happier than when she
was a sister of Loretto.
She loved her community, sheloved her work, she loved
educating in the way that shewas educating, but when the call
came to her to abandon, toleave where she was and to go
seek the poorest of the poor.
There was a real price to bepaid in that and it was the
price of happiness to go seekthat joy.
(35:21):
And it came with a lot ofstruggle and pain but there was
transformation in the end.
And that transformation was notwhat she was looking for or
expected.
It looked like a lot ofloneliness and abandonment but
it was all within.
It seemed, the crucible ofbecoming ever more fit for
fuller joy.
Joan Watson (35:42):
Yeah, and that's what we, yeah and I.
Again, to bring it back toPilgrimage, that idea of, like
people, go on the Camino not tosuffer, but you're going to
suffer, you're going to bestretched.
We were joking on this podcastearlier that we need a better
marketing slogan.
If our slogan is, come onpilgrimage to suffer, but at the
(36:03):
same time we are so comfortableas Americans, we have to step
outside of that in order, in asense, to leave happiness, to
find joy sometimes, whetherthat's putting ourselves in an
uncomfortable place, puttingourselves in a place that
stretches us, that just takes usout of our comfort zone a
little bit, in order to find joy.
I think there's somethingreally powerful there.
Lenny (36:24):
Yeah, and sometimes that's going with other people
right.
This is not going to go exactlythe way you want it.
There will be sometimescompromises, sometimes things
you just have to give up.
Scheduling is not going to bealways right.
It's hard to move groups ofpeople.
Best laid plans, they justdon't come through right.
And that too is part of thepilgrimage Absolutely.
(36:46):
That too is kind of a yieldingand a being more docile and more
responsive to what's comingtowards you.
It has to do with the rocks onthe ground and it has to do
with the interruptions in theschedule, both of them at the
same time.
Joan Watson (37:01):
Yes, so often we ignore the crosses we're
supposed to carry because theylook too ordinary.
They look like I want somegrand, like big blister as I'm
walking across.
Lenny (37:12):
Oh, I don't want that.
Joan Watson (37:13):
You know the arid Camino and I want the Camino
blah blah but then if I go toRome with a bus full of people
and they're annoying me, oh,that's not what I want, right?
Lenny (37:21):
Like don't want this roommate.
Joan Watson (37:23):
I don't see exactly , like I or you know, like the
bus is late or the the tourguide didn't show up, like I
don't want that sacrifice.
And so we waste all thesacrifices and the crosses that
the Lord gives us because theylook too ordinary and we want
this dramatic, you know,pilgrimage, and it's like what
about all the little things?
I mean that's our?
daily life too right Like Idon't want that coworker or that
(37:45):
?
You know snoring spouse.
I want you know that's whatwe're called.
That's what we're called too.
So I have a very importantquestion as we wrap up.
Why Turkish Delight?
It's bothered me since I waslittle.
Have you ever had TurkishDelight?
It's disgusting.
Lenny (38:04):
I was actually just in Turkey.
I had Turkish Delight, sorry.
Joan Watson (38:09):
Is it better in?
Lenny (38:10):
Turkey.
I have never been able to saythat before.
This is my first time there.
Joan Watson (38:14):
Look the Turkish delight we had was actually Well
when I was in Turkey last week.
Lenny (38:17):
It was actually incredible which I've also had
Turkish delight.
I had it, you know, I thinkonce somebody brought it to a
meeting and it was awful, like Ijust thought it was terrible.
But apparently there's like alldifferent kinds of varieties of
Turkish delight in this stuff.
So what we had in this littleturkish market I didn't buy any,
but they gave us some wasreally lovely and delightful.
Joan Watson (38:40):
so okay, that makes me feel better.
That's always bothered mebecause I've had it and I was
like really edmund, for this,really, this is you give.
Yeah, for ice cream maybe, butfor whales, yeah, exactly,
exactly, I was like maybe that'swhat cs loose was trying to
tell us but uh, but okay, thatmakes me feel better that yeah,
you know when you were humblebrag in turkey last week you had
(39:03):
better.
So, um, is there anything you'dlike to add or anything you
want to say before we wrap up,anything maybe we missed?
I mean there's a ton we missed,because these are seven
magnificent books along with, Iwould say, your book is the
eighth.
I would really recommend it topeople.
Um, I would say, like, go backto the Chronicles if you haven't
read them since you were little.
(39:23):
If you've never read them, goback to the Chronicles and read
this as a companion.
You know, read the, read Lion,the Witch and the Wardrobe, and
then read Lenny's essay.
Um, it's spiritual reading.
It is fantastic.
So, thanks for giving this giftto us.
But, yeah, is there anythingthat we missed?
Lenny (39:40):
No, I mean, I love what you said right from the
beginning, that, like you, firstof all picked up this book
instead of the Chronicles, butit led you back to the
Chronicles and, as we say, or asI read at the introduction to
the volume, that's in very manyways what we wanted to do.
It's not about analyzing theChronicles, it's about learning
to enjoy them again, and wethose of us who have written
about this have done some of thework of analyzing, but only
(40:02):
because we enjoyed them first.
And so, like what we do to helpmaybe readers see a little bit
more position themselves, alittle bit more is really to the
end of learning how to enjoyagain.
But I'd also say I think acouple of the things that are
distinctive about that volumeare, first of all, the original
illustrations that are therefrom our friend and colleague
(40:24):
Stephen Beraney.
He created an originalillustration for each of the
seven chronicles and those Ithink deserve not only to be
enjoyed on their own but almoststudied on their own, like
they're really insightful andprofound illustrations that he
gave us.
And then, alongside those,there's an original poem cycle
that runs throughout the volumeas well, by Madeline Lewis.
(40:48):
Infantine wrote an originalpoem for each of the seven
chronicles, and they are notonly delightful but profound and
insightful and lyrical in areally astounding way.
So you know, there's a lot ofthings have been written about
Lewis and about the chroniclesand if we were going to do
something else on this, we weregoing to have, you know, our
(41:09):
essays on each of the chronicles, which we thought added
something.
But these two pieces of art,the collection of illustrations
and the poem cycle were yetanother way in which we wanted
to offer something different andnew.
Joan Watson (41:22):
They're beautiful.
It's such a fun way to returnto these really well-beloved
stories and see them and again,not like dissect them in a way,
but just to enjoy them more andjust to return to them.
So, it's really delightfulListeners.
I hope this has helped you seekind of that.
The idea of pilgrimage can bepresent in a lot of different
(41:43):
ways.
Maybe after listening to manyepisodes of this podcast, I hope
that your eyes are kind of opento the idea that this image of
journey, this image of discovery, this image of pilgrimage is in
our lives, and in a lot ofdifferent ways.
This image of discovery, thisimage of pilgrimage is in our
lives in a lot of different waysand we can see it because it
really is this natural desire ofthe heart pulling us to the
north.
And so, whether we see that inliterature, we see it in movies,
(42:04):
we see it in liturgy, we cansee our lives really being
directed towards this greaterjourney, this greater spiritual,
this greater pilgrimage of life.
So thanks for joining us, Lennyoh it's been a real pleasure,
thank you.
And again in the show notesyou'll find how to get this book
, how to find more out aboutLenny's projects, and we hope
(42:26):
you share this with anotherfriend, maybe someone who has
read the Chronicles, and maybethis is another way for them to
find out about pilgrimagethrough this lens.
So thanks for listening, Godbless.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
Did you read the Chronicles ofNarnia as a child?
If so, you're going to liketoday's episode.
I'm chatting with Dr LennyDiLorenzo, a professor at the
University of Notre Dame, authorand editor of more than 10
(00:44):
books, including the book we'regoing to talk about today
Chronicles of Transformation.
A Spiritual Journey with CSLewis.
Hi Lenny,
Lenny (00:56):
hi Joan, how are you ?
I'm doing great.
How about you?
Joan Watson (00:58):
Good, very good because I get to talk to you
today?
Lenny (00:59):
Oh, that's nice.
Joan Watson (01:00):
So some of our listeners may not know you,
which is sad for them.
So do you want to start bytelling us three sentences?
I always limit people to three,but I'm very generous, so three
sentences about yourself.
What would you tell people?
Lenny (01:14):
Yeah, go ahead and count them out for me as I go along
but.
I'd maybe just start by sayingI'm from a little bit of
everywhere, a little bit ofnowhere.
I was born in New Jersey, liveda couple places there, spent
some of my childhood inTennessee, both in Central and
in Western Tennessee, but I grewup for the most part in
Southern California and wasthere through high school.
Then I came out here to SouthIndiana, went to Notre Dame and
(01:36):
stayed here.
After had been working, did mygraduate degrees here.
So 25 years in South BendIndiana one sentence Number two
I'm married.
My wife, lisa, is from twoplaces besides here.
She was born an early part ofher life in Fort Wayne or, I'm
sorry, fort Worth, texas, andthen raised in Roanoke, virginia
, before coming here Now.
Sentence three we have six kids.
(01:58):
Our six kids are all from SouthBend, homegrown Hoosiers, and I
spend my time working teachingat Notre Dame in theology in our
McGrath Institute for ChurchLife.
Joan Watson (02:09):
I love it.
I love you're not the firstguest to talk about how they're
kind of from everywhere.
I think this idea of pilgrimagealso, even when guests kind of
think about like where are myroots, it causes them to kind of
think about the fact that, like, do I have roots and where am I
from?
But I love that you're from theEast Coast and the West Coast
and the South and the Midwest.
Lenny (02:29):
Right, I mean you have it all covered.
I got a little bit of sayingsfrom each place and I don't
think I really sound like I'mfrom any of them.
Joan Watson (02:37):
I love it.
You're very well-rounded.
Lenny (02:41):
Okay, thanks
Joan Watson (02:42):
.
So your work at Notre Dame, atMcGrath and we've talked a
little bit about McGrath on theshow actually but you know, what
classes do you teach?
What are you working on?
Now?
We're just about to enter.
Well, this will air in thesummer, so you have the summer,
but what are you working on?
Lenny (02:59):
So I've just finished a year of teaching.
I was actually just teachingintroductory theology courses
this year, which I really like.
It's kind of starting from thebeginning, which I think is a
good place to begin.
And this summer so I guess,maybe while folks are listening
to this I'm teaching in ourmaster's program on the Trinity
and Christian salvation A lot ofpeople who are in our echo
(03:21):
program.
They're being formed to beservants in the church they're
in that master's program orother adults who are interested
in becoming more knowledgeablein theology or something to do
with their work.
They're in that program as well.
So that's why I'm spending agood portion of my summer.
I'm also helping to develop someinitiatives here in our
institute.
One is related to somethingwe're going to talk about today,
(03:44):
cs Lewis but that initiative iscalled the Inklings Project,
where we're working with facultyat a number of different
colleges and universities tosupport them and help them to
build and offer courses andother educational offerings for
students that relate with theInklings in some way.
So a lot of evangelizingpotential in that, especially at
(04:04):
public universities,universities where you're not
having religious studies,theology courses and maybe some
of the spiritual reflection isnot as permitted.
I also work on a couple ofother projects our own podcast
called Church Life Today, andthen something called the
Sullivan Family SaintsInitiative, where we seek to
promote and increase devotion toand scholarship on the saints.
Joan Watson (04:27):
Love it.
And we will have links to allof that in the show notes so
that you can find out more aboutLenny and his work,
Lenny (04:32):
and I'm doing free advertising today, I guess for
campus ministry and for UnderArmour.
So this is non-paid.
I should send a bill.
Joan Watson (04:41):
That's right.
For those of you watching, youcan, yeah, free advertising.
Product placement that's right.
Well, as we talk about findingyour work, product placement and
your projects, we're going totalk a little bit today about a
book that you edited a few yearsago called the Chronicles of
Transformation A SpiritualJourney with CS Lewis, and I was
(05:01):
introduced to the book, I think, shortly after I was on your
podcast.
I was kind of, you know,looking around at what you had
done, and my mom and I weregetting back into CS Lewis.
We were reading a book by him,and I love CS Lewis, I love the
Chronicles, but it had been awhile since I read them, and so
I, instead of rereading theChronicles, which is probably
what I should have done, Ibought your book, which actually
(05:22):
just inspired me to reread themagain, which I think is a great
compliment to the book.
Lenny (05:27):
That's the point.
Joan Watson (05:28):
So today I just kind of want to delve into the
book and just what prompted theChronicles of Transformation.
Lenny (05:37):
Well, you know, some years ago we had started this
small sort of lecture series inLent to Easter and the idea was
to gather people together wherethey would be doing common
reading and they would belearning together.
But as a sort of liturgicaloffering it was also a journey
from Lent through Easter.
So the first time we did thiswe did it with Dante's Divine
(05:58):
Comedy and we offered sort oflike public reading groups.
We assembled a number oflectures, we organized materials
for people so they could readthrough the Divine Comedy,
beginning I think it was AshWednesday and concluding
sometime in the Easter season.
We did that again with just theBook of Exodus, the biblical
Book of Exodus, and then, as athird iteration, we thought well
(06:18):
, let's try and maybe broadenthe reach a little bit, bring in
some younger people as well.
So we did the Chronicles ofNarnia for that.
So we created this offeringwhere people were intentionally
moving together in community inliturgical time and making this
journey through these liturgicalseasons.
Now, part of it was just theidea that we had done that
(06:41):
before.
Right, but what we discovered,I think, in putting this
together and really just movingthrough the Chronicles and
having different people speak onthem and then conversations
with other readers and readinggroups, is that there is a
journey that takes place notonly in the Chronicles but for
the readers if we read them in acertain way.
And of course we did have someyoung people, you know teenagers
(07:04):
, maybe even a little younger,who were doing it.
But we had a lot of you know,card carrying adults who were
doing this as well, probably themajority of the audience both
here at Notre Dame and thenelsewhere, that we were kind of
reaching through digital meansand it was sort of I don't know
if it was an epiphany, but itwas.
It was.
We noticed that there was a newway of engagement of these
(07:26):
chronicles for adults, but itrequired things of us as adults
which in some ways is moredifficult than the way in which
children encounter thechronicles.
Children are just drawn in.
Narnia is I think I write thisin the book Narnia is the
children's world, but adults arealso drawn into that world if,
(07:48):
and only if, they will allowthemselves to be somehow
childlike again and it will drawthem through this journey.
And that childlikeness is not alack of sophistication, it's
kind of post-sophistication, toallow yourself to enjoy, to
marvel at, to struggle with, tomove in and through these
(08:09):
narratives.
It's the way children naturallyencounter narratives, but
sometimes we as adults we get alittle bit too puffed up on our
own sophistication.
Don't let ourselves do that.
So this book was really bornfrom that and it kind of
presents that journey, thatpossibility of that journey to
people.
It is indeed as we would talk,about a kind of pilgrimage, a
(08:29):
literary pilgrimage but aspiritual pilgrimage at the same
time.
Joan Watson (08:33):
Yeah, I think there's a really good
clarification to make, becausewe talk about the pilgrimage of
life that's what this wholepodcast is about and I think
sometimes we just think aboutgrowing older, that the
pilgrimage of life is growingolder and the pilgrimage to
heaven, and so we equate like,oh, I'll get holier the longer I
live, the more I get to, and Ithink this challenges that to
(08:56):
say there's a reason Jesus saysto become children.
And that this pilgrimage of lifeisn't necessarily because
grownups which CS Lewis didn'tlike that term that grownups are
necessarily better thanchildren, but that there's a
spiritual maturity that doesn'tdepend on our age, and so the
pilgrimage of life cannot justbe equated with us growing up.
Lenny (09:16):
Yeah, and sometimes it actually works in the reverse
direction.
So, even within the Chroniclesthemselves, as you would know, a
couple of the characters kindof show Lewis's take on this,
like one of the four childrenwho enters into Narnia first
Susan as she grows older shebecomes too quote unquote grown
up, right, she loses her touchwith the things that really
(09:40):
matter.
She becomes too concerned withand too attached to things that
don't matter these you know,quote unquote adult concerns and
she loses her, she never cankind of enjoy the Narnian things
again.
Now, at the same time, you havea child who's pulled into
Narnia and is already a boringgrown up and used to scrub,
right, and he has to be in someways broken from that,
(10:04):
undragoned, if you will, um, andthat, I think, gives us a
little glimpse into the way inwhich lewis recognized precisely
what you're talking about.
It's not simply a linearjourney or chronological journey
, like the older you get, themore mature, the more the holier
, the more spiritual there is,at the same time as that
(10:25):
chronological progression,another sort of level of journey
that's taking place.
Maybe it's more vertical or Idon't know how you would
describe it, but it does have todo with a conversion,
ever-going conversion tohumility, to trust, to
childlikeness, which is a gospelimage, that we get the humility
(10:46):
and the trust.
Joan Watson (10:47):
Yeah, I always wonder if it's almost like a
spiral journey into ourselves,like if we want to think of the
journey as a direction.
Is it a spiral not intoourselves in a self-centered,
you know navel-gazing way, butinto discovering who we really
are and who we?
Were made to be that sometimeslittle kids have this.
They have a much, much greateridea of who God made them to be
(11:10):
than that adult you know and sothis, this, this spiral
pilgrimage into who we are asChristians and who we are in the
image and likeness of God, andthat discovery of of the Lord in
that
I think that's right.
I think that's right and youknow, I think in those terms
that you're speaking of thissort of spiral journey of, say,
(11:31):
teresa of Avila and her interiorcastle.
And you know, in the outerregions of the castle of the
soul are all the little crittersand all these other things that
constantly pull your attentionaway, that constantly distract
you, that make you sodisintegrated that you would
lose yourself in all the manythings.
And part of the journey, thespiritual journey she's teaching
(11:53):
her sisters and those of us whocome after, is the healthy
detachment from those things,building up the power, the
ability, the capacity forrecollection to be really in one
place at one time, which is theinitial natural ability upon
which those spiritual fruitswill build.
(12:15):
But you will not discover anyof the spiritual fruits of the
more inner realms that Teresatalks about if you do not first
practice and work on thatnatural ability of being
recollected and detached fromthe other things.
And how much is that, you know,apparent in our lives today,
like all the many ways in whichwe're constantly poked at and
(12:38):
our attention is signaled andgrabbed, and how easy it is and
enticing and oftentimesminimally rewarding, to just
split our attention that way andfollow the shiny little lights.
And it is and enticing andoftentimes minimally rewarding
to just split our attention thatway and follow the shiny little
lights.
And it is much harder, perhapsmuch harder today than ever
before, to be recollected, toreally be in one place at one
time and be fully, fully present.
And that is precisely the sortof thing that it takes not only
(13:02):
to be really immersed in a storyyou have to yield to the story
but also to be involved insomething like a pilgrimage,
like it is about definite placeat definite time, with yourself,
with others, and not constantlybeing pulled to other places
and other things, even thoughthose things have a bearing on
you where you are.
(13:22):
Yeah, yeah, we always tell our pilgrims it's
about being in the presentmoment and it's about entering
into that present moment withnothing else.
And that requires attachmentand that requires concentration
and that requires a lot.
And I think sometimes we thinkthat little kids have shorter
attention spans than we do.
But look at a kid readingNarnia, look at a kid entering
(13:43):
into a fantasy world and theyare completely in that world at
that moment.
Lenny (13:47):
Yeah.
Joan Watson (13:48):
And it's not us in our maturity that have larger,
longer attention spans than ourchildren.
Sometimes it's them able tocompletely enter into the story.
Lenny (13:58):
Yeah, they don't need a payoff for it, right, like they
don't have to make something ofit, analyze it, get the point,
find the message, make it useful.
They can just enjoy it, just bethere or be troubled by it or
be sucked into it, or not stopthinking about it.
Joan Watson (14:24):
And because, I mean , I read them as a child, but I
don't have a clear memory ofreading them as a child, except
for the first one, that I thinkgrabbed me the most.
But when I read them as adultsI already knew the story and I
was reading it as an adult andit's very different, and so I
love that you told us how Isaacexperienced it, so that we could
kind of experience it as kidsagain.
Lenny (14:44):
Yeah, I mean, and part of this has to do with the central
figure of Aslan himself.
Let's say, like those of us whocome to the Chronicles of
Narnia as adults, and especiallyif we know something about him
beforehand, we are already hipto the fact that Aslan is a
Christ figure.
Right, yes, he is going toexhibit some of those
characteristics.
He's going to present them tous and we're looking for them
(15:06):
and we're anticipating them.
And when he's taken there's allkinds of spoilers in this
episode, folks.
So just so you know.
So you know, when he's taken offto be sacrificed and you know
it's coming, you're notsurprised, in a way that it's
coming.
You don't feel it because ofcourse he's going to be
sacrificed, and when he appearsagain on the horizon, you're not
(15:28):
that surprised.
Of course he's going to rise.
But that is precisely when Iwas awakened to the difference
between my son, isaac, who wasthen five, and myself
encountering this story.
I just, I mean, I obviously hadalready read it, I knew it, I
knew it was going to happen, butI'm just not surprised by that
kind of narrative arc anymore.
(15:50):
He was utterly devastated andutterly delighted, and there's
something in that, not justabout Narnia but about the
Christian mystery.
Like we've become toodomesticated to the fact that,
oh, he will enter into hispassion and die and rise again,
(16:11):
and we just move, you know,blithely from one to the other,
because this is the way it goesand we have to be shocked by
that over and over again, eventhough we know it.
And I think that's part of thespiritual discipline that adults
can reacquire by yielding tosomething like a children's
(16:31):
story of Narnia, which isn'tjust for children.
Joan Watson (16:34):
Yeah, yes, when I teach adults Lectio Divina, it's
kind of my big thing is we haveto be doing more Lectio Divina
as a church and I always tellpeople you have to try to read
it like you've never heard itbefore.
Whether it's a parable, like aman who had two sons, I don't
care that you know where this isgoing.
Act like you've never heard itand like the the Jesus became
(16:54):
man, that God became man.
Act like you've never, likethat's crazy.
And as a church, we're justlike oh yeah, god became man.
Okay, going on with my day.
No, that's insane, that'sinsanity, but we're so used to
it and we need to become likelittle kids and be surprised by
it again.
Lenny (17:11):
Yeah, you should protest against it.
This is not the way this works.
Like what do you mean?
God became man.
I'm putting this book down forquite some time until I can come
to terms with that.
That's ridiculous, exactly.
Joan Watson (17:23):
The scandal of the incarnation, you would say right
.
So you know, all seven of thebooks include a type of journey,
really, and often a physicaljourney.
Lenny (17:34):
And.
Joan Watson (17:34):
I think there's this idea that we connect to
this image, this story, thatit's an image we can relate to,
but this physical journey is, ofcourse, indication of a
spiritual journey, and that'slike pilgrimage, right, like we
can connect to this physicalpilgrimage.
We get that image, but itreally is speaking about the
interior journey, and so I lovethat Lewis uses these adventures
(17:58):
to that's something we cancling on to.
Lenny (18:01):
But the real story is that interior, that interior
journey for the charactersthroughout the series yeah, and
I think this is part of lewis'sgreat incarnational instinct,
which is that the practical andthe spiritual are not separated.
But in christianity, that whichis most practical is the place
where you will find the deepestspiritual meaning, and that
(18:23):
which is most spiritual is thatwhich is going to be rendered
through the practical matters.
So, by traversing this terrain,by taking seriously the
challenges and the conquests ofNarnia, by undergoing the
various tests, by havingcharacter tried by the choices
that you make in these specificsituations, that's where the
(18:44):
spiritual quality and thevirtues are really being forged.
And it's not over and abovethat or elsewhere, it's right in
the middle of that.
And in some ways I think, or inmany ways I think, that Narnia,
therefore, is not like ametaphor for our world, it's not
a one-to-one allegory of ourworld.
It's in some ways a trainingground, a practice for what it
(19:06):
means to live in this world,well, to reckon with the matters
of responsibility and thecrises of character in practical
matters, because that is thevery terrain that our Lord and
Savior took on as his own.
That's where the spiritualstuff happens.
And we see this again, likeelsewhere in Lewis's corpus,
(19:29):
like, for example, in thatmarvelous little book, the Great
Divorce.
The terrain itself is like acharacter, it's almost the whole
thing that reality is harsh tothe feet of shadows.
It says therefore, and theghosts who come into the
heavenly terrain have to becomeaccommodated to that terrain.
They have to be thickened, andit's happening to them, it seems
(19:50):
somewhat physically, but it'shappening to them in their
passions, in their desires, intheir affections, in their
values and in their loves, andso that which is most interior
is actually affecting themexteriorly, and the terrain
which seems exterior is actuallythe proving ground for what's
inside.
I think this is taking placeall throughout Lewis's fiction,
(20:12):
especially, and we see that allthroughout the Chronicles of
Narnia.
The engagement with the world,the terrain, the crises, matters
Absolutely.
Joan Watson (20:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Just to idea of like um, thisisn't, this isn't just a story,
but this is a, like you said, atraining ground for us.
Where are the lessons to thentake into our everyday life?
Where?
how you know, like the, thecharacters, we all know Peters,
we all know Edmonds, we all knowEustace's.
Maybe we are them and and howlike we are called to go now,
(20:44):
live the life with them and takethese lessons of conversion, of
redemption, of atonement intoour life and, and that's the
reality, and really thespirituality like this is great
divorce, right, the spirituallife is the greater reality.
Um, that's the greater realitythan ever what we can see and
touch, yes, but that discoverywe're going to have to do a
(21:05):
series on just pilgrimage inliterature and you're going to
have to do all the episodes andwe can have an episode on the
great divorce and episode onDante.
And so it'll be great.
So I'll sign you up now.
I think one of the great themesfor me especially in Lion, the
Witch and the Wardrobe, but Ithink in all the things is that
theme of discovery where Lucydiscovers Narnia first and we
(21:28):
don't have to get on the rant.
But I agree with you on theproper order of reading the
books.
That you read.
Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
First, because you need todiscover with Lucy, narnia, and
you need to discover.
But this theme of discovery, Ithink, can also connect to
pilgrimage, that pilgrimageshelp us discover not just the
world but then also ourselves,and so I think we see this theme
(21:51):
of discovery throughout allseven stories, that is, that
discovery of pilgrimage.
Lenny (21:57):
Oh, I think that's absolutely true and I think,
like you're rightly saying, thecharacters are discovering
themselves, but that oftentimescomes belatedly.
They don't just go into acorner and like, think about
themselves right, you're notsaying this uh, struggle and of
(22:20):
self-confrontation, and oftenthe self-confrontation is the
confrontation with, or theencounter with, aslan or his
mission, right?
So you can think about Lucy who, as you rightly said, is the
first one drawn into Nardia anddiscovers the land.
But she really comes to thecrisis of herself, most likely
in the voyage of the DawnTreader, when she's reading
(22:42):
through I forget what the thebook's called, the book that
contains all stories and hercharacter is being tried there
and she has to be converted intothe greater, uh, acceptance of
her story and her greater lovefor aslan and letting go of, uh,
some of these attachments thatshe might otherwise have.
(23:02):
It's a I mean, it's in a, youknow, probably the most
quasi-mystical of the Chronicles, the Voyage of the Dawn Treader
.
It's like, surrounded by a lotof humor, but that particular
trial that Lucy undergoes is atrial indeed.
Or the trial when she has towake up her siblings in Prince
(23:25):
Caspian.
It's a terrible task becauseshe's got to tell them they've
gone the wrong way.
She knows this is painful, buther obedience to her call forces
it upon her.
Either she does that or she'sabandoning herself in some way.
And so that discovery of selfis coming from these tasks,
again, from the place itself,from the one who calls you there
(23:49):
, and you don't know in advancewhere those discoveries are
going to come from, at whatpoint, with whom, with what.
You have to actually go and beopen to discover it.
Joan Watson (24:05):
To live, life to live the life in front of you.
Yeah, that's nice because, yeah,I mean, I think you know it is
this idea nowadays like, oh, I'mgonna go off and discover
myself, right yeah and you havepeople walking the camino, for
example, to go discoverthemselves, and it's like, okay,
actually you're not reallylooking to discover yourself,
you're looking to discover yourmaker, um, and in discovering
god, you're going to discoveryourself.
(24:25):
But that's an important, Ithink, difference that the
characters aren't setting off todiscover themselves, but that
they discover themselves throughthe living of daily life and
the obedience to their mission,and I think that's a really
important clarification.
Yeah, yeah.
Lenny (24:39):
And even right from the beginning, like the one who goes
in looking for something forhimself, is on the wrong journey
.
And that would be Edmund at thebeginning.
Right, he's going to graspsomething, he's trying to
elevate himself and he has.
Well, first of all, he suffersthe terrible consequences of
that personally and then seesthe consequences of his actions
on others.
But he has to be broken fromthat, and it's when he himself
(25:03):
is converted to a mission thathe actually really discovers who
he is and his not just his rolein his place, but also his
dignity and his strength.
Joan Watson (25:14):
Yeah, that's a.
It's a good reminder to us thateven those people who embark on
these missions for the wrongreason, like Edmund, enters
Narnia for the wrong reason.
He begins on the wrong foot butthere's still redemption,
there's still salvation, becauseof his willingness and really
because, in a sense, I mean whenhe gets taken by the White
(25:35):
Witch, it's that death to self,like he's in a bad spot and it's
that his siblings' willingnessto sacrifice themselves for him,
and then obviously aslan'ssacrifice in the best sense.
But yeah um, what is?
This?
Might be a really difficultquestion, but of your seven,
what's what's of the seven,what's your favorite?
Lenny (25:56):
you know, for a while it was the voyage of the dawn
treader.
Just because it's because ofthat sort of more mystical
quality, I had a renewed love ofthe Lion, the Witch and the
Wardrobe.
Actually, as I was firstdeveloping the lecture that then
turned into the chapter I wrotefor this book I, because I was
organizing the whole thing Ijust left myself to the end if I
(26:16):
was going to do one, whateverone, people don't pick and
nobody picked Lion, the Witchand the Wardrobe, right, so I
ended up with that one.
But I really came to love it ina new and deeper way and it was
precisely, by the way I triedto write about it Like this was
my renewed encounter with it.
So there is something aboutthat I love.
But I mean I do enjoy each ofthem.
(26:42):
And you know not to not to sortof shamelessly plug this book,
but the contributors to thisvolume, like what they wrote on
each one was really educationalfor me and eye opening, like I
had never encountered the Horseand His Boy, the way that
Francesca Murphy leads us toencounter that, and it was so
revelatory.
I'd read it, you know, severaltimes and I just saw more deeply
(27:05):
into it and made it moredelightful, or the way in which,
for example, anthony Pagliarinispoke about and really taught
about the misuse of language inthe last battle and the
redemption of language and thestruggle for truth and all that
stuff.
It's totally eye opening, Ithought so I came to a renewed
appreciation for them in thatway.
But to answer your questiondirectly, maybe I maybe picked
(27:28):
the line the witch and thewardrobe.
Joan Watson (27:29):
Yeah, I love it.
It's a hard, that's a hardquestion.
I mean it's a hard.
It's hard to choose because ina sense, they're all very
different and, um, I think atdifferent times of our lives,
probably different ones speak tous.
I've always loved the horse andhis boy in that and this is a
big spoiler, just that image ofAslan showing up in so many
different ways.
(27:50):
I think we can all relate tothat in our lives, where the
Lord is unrecognizable sometimes, and sometimes the Lord even
shows up in ways that we wish hehadn't, and then we realize.
Oh, I'm so glad that happenedright and so that is such an
important part of our lives andour spiritual journey and our
relationship with the lord um.
But I loved when um francescatalked about that like at face
(28:13):
value that story is really.
It seems to be just an escape.
He's escaping but, it really isthis pilgrimage for Shasta to
discover who he is Again thatidea of self journey or it's
self discovery, but in just this, this, every day, he's escaping
and in the end, it's apilgrimage to discover Aslan and
(28:34):
discover who he is.
Like in so many of the otherstories, um, and she even says
like pilgrimage.
Is this natural desire of ourlives that Shasta doesn't know?
He's on a pilgrimage, but Ithink she really opened up for
me too, even though Horse andHis Boy is one of my favorites.
She opened up a really newsense of it for me.
Lenny (28:50):
Yeah, and I think she drew to our attention that,
preceding even his need toescape which that need came
pretty early he realized hisperil, that he had to leave
where he was.
Even before that, there was thedesire for the North, the
curiosity about the North.
The North was calling to him.
And I think you can quickly,you know, when you're getting
(29:11):
into the story trying to figureout what's going on, and here
you get to the beginning of thedrama you forget what preceded
it and that's what preceded ithis desire for the North.
And what Francesca does sobrilliantly is she helps us to
(29:41):
see that this was in many ways areflection of Lewis's own
desire and journey.
She reads the Horse and its boyespecially next to, suprised by
joy, Lewis' own autobiographyand makes the claim she think
the Horse and his Boy is themost autobiographical of all of
Lewis's chronicles, that it washis desire for joy, and he had a
very particular meaning for joy, this unfulfilled longing, this
sort of pain, this piercingthat propelled him forward, even
against himself, and that Ithink she sees as the primary
motivation for Shasta too,himself.
(30:05):
And that I think she sees asthe primary motivation for
Shasta too, which is really thedesire that's coming from Aslan,
himself unnamed, and as yetunknown.
Joan Watson (30:12):
Yes, yes, and again , that idea of that pilgrimage,
that interior desire thatthere's something calling us.
And you do meet people who goon physical pilgrimages and they
don't even know why, butthere's this desire.
I think we see it in somepeople's lives, just in
wanderlust, like they have thisdesire to go and travel and they
don't realize what they'researching for.
(30:33):
But I think they're searchingfor something other than
themselves.
They're searching for thatmeaning, they're searching for
that desire and and that like Ilove what you said like propels
us forward, that desire for theNorth, for Aslan, for heaven.
Something is calling us and so Ithink that's again like a good
pilgrimage connection that weare.
There's this interior desire tomove and that's our, that's our
(30:55):
, our, our spiritual pilgrimage,the spiritual pilgrimage of
life, is that desire to go,maybe outside of ourselves, but
to go to that thing.
I mean that thing that's goingto complete us.
Right, our hearts are restlessuntil they rest in thee, and for
some of us it's that wanderlustand that desire to physically
(31:16):
pilgrimage, but on thatpilgrimage we pray that people
find the north, find Aslan, findthe Lord.
Lenny (31:23):
Yeah, and I think, find the Lord, yeah, and I think this
is the good news ofdissatisfaction, actually, like,
maybe we call it the gospel ofdissatisfaction.
No, that's not right.
But good news ofdissatisfaction, so long as you
are dissatisfied, it is.
There's actually a nugget ofsomething very good in that,
which is it's the flip side, theindication that there's
something more you desire.
It's the flip side, theindication that there's
something more you desire, thatyou're made for more.
(31:45):
The real tragedy and sadnesswould be just blanket
contentment at any point right.
This isn't to just crave afterbeing unsettled, but we are
created to desire and not todouse our desires, not to even
tame them, but actually to allowthem to grow and to be enlarged
(32:08):
, to be directed and ordered.
And we will desire more andmore the closer we get to our
Lord.
And so I think you know, maybethe most prevalent or one of the
most prevalent conditions andfeelings of people today is a
persistent feeling ofdissatisfaction, of
disconnection, of not knowingwhat's wrong but wanting
(32:31):
something else.
And maybe we could think aboutthat as, in a way, it's a slow
motion and silent tragedy, butin another way, it is the silent
throbbing of some good newsLike this isn't it for you,
there is something else and seeksomething else?
Joan Watson (32:50):
Yeah, and that can be that little door opening that
the Lord needs.
Yeah, and that can be thatlittle door opening that the
Lord needs, that in our comfort.
It's like you said, like ifwe're too comfortable and we're
too content, we're not going tosearch.
I was thinking, actually, aboutthis recently when I was
(33:15):
confronted with the Acts of theApostles, when Paul speaks at
Athens and everyone's like, ohOK, we'll hear you about this on
another time.
And then he goes to Corinth andyou would think like, athens is
academic, they're intellectual,they're seeking the truth,
whereas Corinth is prettyvicious, I mean, they're full of
sexual immorality, they're lewdright.
So you think, oh, the betteraudience would be Athens.
But no, he leaves Athens to goto Corinth.
And I thought I wonder ifCorinth makes the better
converts because they aresearching Like that, that that
(33:39):
viciousness is never going tofill their needs.
And so they are searching,whereas Athens can be like.
Oh well, we have our philosophyand we have our answers, and
you know, like it's?
It's a fascinating like Godworks in ways I can't understand
sometimes.
But, is it that contentmentthat is actually bad?
Because you stop searching.
Lenny (33:56):
Yeah, you know, yeah, nothing spoils the taste of good
ordinary food quite so much asbad magic food, which Lewis says
in the first chronicle, right,and in this case, like it may or
may not be bad magic food, butit might be, you know, tasty
little philosophical discourse.
And it might be a pleasant andcordial life and it may be a
(34:17):
comfortable neighborhood and agood enough routine.
And it's hard, I mean, it'shard for me, it's hard for all
of us when we get into thoseplaces because they are so nice
to want to shake out of them.
But one of the things I learnedfrom, say, mother Teresa, I
think one of the secrets to herholiness was her willingness to
leave happiness to find joy.
(34:39):
She left home, which shedescribed as a very happy home,
but she left home to go first toIreland and then to India and
she probably wasn't ever goingto get back to that home, to her
happy home.
And when she was in Indiainitially and she was a sister
(35:00):
of Loretto, she said she hasnever been happier than when she
was a sister of Loretto.
She loved her community, sheloved her work, she loved
educating in the way that shewas educating, but when the call
came to her to abandon, toleave where she was and to go
seek the poorest of the poor.
There was a real price to bepaid in that and it was the
price of happiness to go seekthat joy.
(35:21):
And it came with a lot ofstruggle and pain but there was
transformation in the end.
And that transformation was notwhat she was looking for or
expected.
It looked like a lot ofloneliness and abandonment but
it was all within.
It seemed, the crucible ofbecoming ever more fit for
fuller joy.
Joan Watson (35:42):
Yeah, and that's what we, yeah and I.
Again, to bring it back toPilgrimage, that idea of, like
people, go on the Camino not tosuffer, but you're going to
suffer, you're going to bestretched.
We were joking on this podcastearlier that we need a better
marketing slogan.
If our slogan is, come onpilgrimage to suffer, but at the
(36:03):
same time we are so comfortableas Americans, we have to step
outside of that in order, in asense, to leave happiness, to
find joy sometimes, whetherthat's putting ourselves in an
uncomfortable place, puttingourselves in a place that
stretches us, that just takes usout of our comfort zone a
little bit, in order to find joy.
I think there's somethingreally powerful there.
Lenny (36:24):
Yeah, and sometimes that's going with other people
right.
This is not going to go exactlythe way you want it.
There will be sometimescompromises, sometimes things
you just have to give up.
Scheduling is not going to bealways right.
It's hard to move groups ofpeople.
Best laid plans, they justdon't come through right.
And that too is part of thepilgrimage Absolutely.
(36:46):
That too is kind of a yieldingand a being more docile and more
responsive to what's comingtowards you.
It has to do with the rocks onthe ground and it has to do
with the interruptions in theschedule, both of them at the
same time.
Joan Watson (37:01):
Yes, so often we ignore the crosses we're
supposed to carry because theylook too ordinary.
They look like I want somegrand, like big blister as I'm
walking across.
Lenny (37:12):
Oh, I don't want that.
Joan Watson (37:13):
You know the arid Camino and I want the Camino
blah blah but then if I go toRome with a bus full of people
and they're annoying me, oh,that's not what I want, right?
Lenny (37:21):
Like don't want this roommate.
Joan Watson (37:23):
I don't see exactly , like I or you know, like the
bus is late or the the tourguide didn't show up, like I
don't want that sacrifice.
And so we waste all thesacrifices and the crosses that
the Lord gives us because theylook too ordinary and we want
this dramatic, you know,pilgrimage, and it's like what
about all the little things?
I mean that's our?
daily life too right Like Idon't want that coworker or that
(37:45):
?
You know snoring spouse.
I want you know that's whatwe're called.
That's what we're called too.
So I have a very importantquestion as we wrap up.
Why Turkish Delight?
It's bothered me since I waslittle.
Have you ever had TurkishDelight?
It's disgusting.
Lenny (38:04):
I was actually just in Turkey.
I had Turkish Delight, sorry.
Joan Watson (38:09):
Is it better in?
Lenny (38:10):
Turkey.
I have never been able to saythat before.
This is my first time there.
Joan Watson (38:14):
Look the Turkish delight we had was actually Well
when I was in Turkey last week.
Lenny (38:17):
It was actually incredible which I've also had
Turkish delight.
I had it, you know, I thinkonce somebody brought it to a
meeting and it was awful, like Ijust thought it was terrible.
But apparently there's like alldifferent kinds of varieties of
Turkish delight in this stuff.
So what we had in this littleturkish market I didn't buy any,
but they gave us some wasreally lovely and delightful.
Joan Watson (38:40):
so okay, that makes me feel better.
That's always bothered mebecause I've had it and I was
like really edmund, for this,really, this is you give.
Yeah, for ice cream maybe, butfor whales, yeah, exactly,
exactly, I was like maybe that'swhat cs loose was trying to
tell us but uh, but okay, thatmakes me feel better that yeah,
you know when you were humblebrag in turkey last week you had
(39:03):
better.
So, um, is there anything you'dlike to add or anything you
want to say before we wrap up,anything maybe we missed?
I mean there's a ton we missed,because these are seven
magnificent books along with, Iwould say, your book is the
eighth.
I would really recommend it topeople.
Um, I would say, like, go backto the Chronicles if you haven't
read them since you were little.
(39:23):
If you've never read them, goback to the Chronicles and read
this as a companion.
You know, read the, read Lion,the Witch and the Wardrobe, and
then read Lenny's essay.
Um, it's spiritual reading.
It is fantastic.
So, thanks for giving this giftto us.
But, yeah, is there anythingthat we missed?
Lenny (39:40):
No, I mean, I love what you said right from the
beginning, that, like you, firstof all picked up this book
instead of the Chronicles, butit led you back to the
Chronicles and, as we say, or asI read at the introduction to
the volume, that's in very manyways what we wanted to do.
It's not about analyzing theChronicles, it's about learning
to enjoy them again, and wethose of us who have written
about this have done some of thework of analyzing, but only
(40:02):
because we enjoyed them first.
And so, like what we do to helpmaybe readers see a little bit
more position themselves, alittle bit more is really to the
end of learning how to enjoyagain.
But I'd also say I think acouple of the things that are
distinctive about that volumeare, first of all, the original
illustrations that are therefrom our friend and colleague
(40:24):
Stephen Beraney.
He created an originalillustration for each of the
seven chronicles and those Ithink deserve not only to be
enjoyed on their own but almoststudied on their own, like
they're really insightful andprofound illustrations that he
gave us.
And then, alongside those,there's an original poem cycle
that runs throughout the volumeas well, by Madeline Lewis.
(40:48):
Infantine wrote an originalpoem for each of the seven
chronicles, and they are notonly delightful but profound and
insightful and lyrical in areally astounding way.
So you know, there's a lot ofthings have been written about
Lewis and about the chroniclesand if we were going to do
something else on this, we weregoing to have, you know, our
(41:09):
essays on each of the chronicles, which we thought added
something.
But these two pieces of art,the collection of illustrations
and the poem cycle were yetanother way in which we wanted
to offer something different andnew.
Joan Watson (41:22):
They're beautiful.
It's such a fun way to returnto these really well-beloved
stories and see them and again,not like dissect them in a way,
but just to enjoy them more andjust to return to them.
So, it's really delightfulListeners.
I hope this has helped you seekind of that.
The idea of pilgrimage can bepresent in a lot of different
(41:43):
ways.
Maybe after listening to manyepisodes of this podcast, I hope
that your eyes are kind of opento the idea that this image of
journey, this image of discovery, this image of pilgrimage is in
our lives, and in a lot ofdifferent ways.
This image of discovery, thisimage of pilgrimage is in our
lives in a lot of different waysand we can see it because it
really is this natural desire ofthe heart pulling us to the
north.
And so, whether we see that inliterature, we see it in movies,
(42:04):
we see it in liturgy, we cansee our lives really being
directed towards this greaterjourney, this greater spiritual,
this greater pilgrimage of life.
So thanks for joining us, Lennyoh it's been a real pleasure,
thank you.
And again in the show notesyou'll find how to get this book
, how to find more out aboutLenny's projects, and we hope
(42:26):
you share this with anotherfriend, maybe someone who has
read the Chronicles, and maybethis is another way for them to
find out about pilgrimagethrough this lens.
So thanks for listening, Godbless.
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