November 21, 2023 • 38 mins
To go on pilgrimage means to be open to surprises! In this episode, I chat with Rachel Gilman, the director of Youth Ministry for the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. Rachel and I talk about her experiences both in Italy and on World Youth Day. We revisit Rachel's profound encounters with the churches, saints, and relics of Rome, plus the epiphanic moment she had in a quiet, empty church in Lisbon.
Join us as we discuss the significance of being open to the small gifts from God and the lessons we learn when we listen to those little nudges from the Lord.
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Episode Transcript
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Joan Watson (00:01):
Welcome to In Via the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all "in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, Joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, Rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
Welcome back everybody to InVia, the podcast where we are
navigating the pilgrimage ofdaily life.
And today to talk aboutpilgrimage, to talk about daily
(00:42):
life, is my friend.
I think I'm allowed to call youmy friend, my friend Rachel
Gilman, the Director of YouthMinistry for the Archdiocese of
Indianapolis.
Hello, Rachel.
Rachel Gilman (00:54):
Hi, yes, you can definitely call me a friend,
Joan.
We're there.
Joan Watson (00:58):
We've gone through battle together and we've
survived and now we're friends.
So, Rachel, I want to tell ouraudience how I first met you.
I first met Rachel at theO'Hare airport as she got off a
bus.
It seems very long ago, butRachel was the leader for
Archindy's World Youth Day trip,and so Rachel and I together
(01:22):
led 190 odd people and 190,right I?
Rachel Gilman (01:26):
think 182 or something 182.
Joan Watson (01:29):
Okay, I realize it sounded like I said that all
those people were odd, andthat's not what I meant.
Not 190 odd people, what, but190-ish, so 180-ish people
through Lisbon, and it waswonderful, and so Rachel and I
bonded over that.
So today, I want to start bysharing with our audience who
(01:52):
Rachel is, because I know alittle bit about Rachel.
But, Rachel, if you coulddescribe yourself in three
sentences, only three sentences,what would those sentences be?
Rachel Gilman (02:02):
Yeah, okay, sentence one I would say that I
love to laugh, and you probablyhear this throughout the podcast
.
I'm a major giggler, but I justfind joy in life, like
everywhere, so laughter is myexpression of that.
Two, I like to call myself afun, competitive person.
(02:28):
So I am actuallyover-competitive in like
everything I do, but I alwaystell myself there's a threshold,
so I have to have fun and makesure other people are having fun
.
But if you were to ask myclosest friends, they'd be like
oh yeah, she's super competitive.
So I try to hide it but it'skind of hard to.
And then number three I've beendescribed as like already
(02:56):
living a fantastic retiredwoman's life because I love to
do puzzles and paint by numbersand read, and so my friends
would like to make fun of mebecause I'll sit on my couch and
do a puzzle and watch TV andthey're like you're set, you're
ready to go.
Joan Watson (03:12):
I love it.
I love it.
I can see like I didn't evenknow those things about you
before we went to World YouthDay and I can see why we got
along so well.
I love that that sounds like anideal night, like why not stay
home and do a puzzle, and likethat sounds lovely.
But also your gift of laughteris such a joy and such a gift
(03:37):
for others and so I want toaffirm you in that I think
that's a gift from God, that itreally, I think, got us through
a lot and I think it gets youlike I think it gets.
I think approaching life thatway is just the better way to
approach life, like just withjoy, and even when stuff is
frustrating, and even when stuffis hard, like okay, like the
(03:59):
Lord's got it, we'll get throughit, like we'll survive.
So that was a gift to me.
So thank you for being alaugher, oh thank you, that's
sweet, yeah, I agree though.
So, Rachel, you went to WorldYouth Day, but you've been on
pilgrimage even before that, sowould you just like tell me a
little bit about maybe yourfirst pilgrimage, or your
(04:20):
favorite pilgrimage, or apilgrimage that stands out to
you?
Rachel Gilman (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, I my very first pilgrimage.
I went on, I believe, a summerof 2019.
And we went to Italy with myparish.
I was working there as a youthminister at the time, but I
decided to go for myself, so Ipaid the money.
I wanted it to be fully apilgrimage experience, even
(04:45):
though I was technically onstaff, and decided to go, and so
we went to Rome, and then wewent to Assisi, and then
Florence and then Siena.
So we did a pretty good tour ofItaly.
I think end of being about 10days long in total, but just
phenomenal experience, beautiful, and this was your first time.
Joan Watson (05:05):
this was your first time in Italy, then.
Rachel Gilman (05:09):
No, actually that was my second time.
The first time I went I wasstudying abroad in college, so I
very much looked at traveldifferently.
So I had been to all thoseplaces except at Assisi and
Siena, but literally only wentfor like two days in a massive
like travel backpack aroundEurope experience.
(05:30):
So it was really, really fun togo back in a prayerful way,
because I hadn't reallyapproached it that way.
I was trying to see the majorsites the first time and just be
on vacation and have fun as a21 year old.
So, very different from comingback in my late 20s on a
pilgrimage.
Joan Watson (05:49):
Yes, I mean you were in a different place,
spiritually, I'm sure,intellectually, maturity wise.
And then did you, would you saylike, did you prepare in any
different way when you went onpilgrimage, versus going just
kind of as a tourist?
Rachel Gilman (06:08):
Yeah, absolutely yes.
I was a lot more intentionaljust about my preparation when
it was a pilgrimage.
I mean I would collect prayerintentions from friends and
family to bring with me.
I also just tried to read moreabout the saints that I would
encounter.
So I was trying to get some ofthe history as well and prepare
(06:32):
myself for such a deeperconnection to the experiences I
was going to have.
Where as the first time--i twas very much just like what
train am I getting on?
And like do I have a map?
Because again, this is prettysmart phone time.
So I like had paper maps up thewazoo.
So like it was more just likehow do I get from point A to
(06:52):
point B and what are my topthree things I want to do?
The pilgrimage was way morespiritual, spiritually like at
the beginning of my preparation.
Joan Watson (07:02):
Yeah, I remember talking to you when we were over
there about how, like, how didour parents let us go before
smartphones?
We didn't know what we didn'thave, obviously.
But I mean, I remember, likewhen we and I studied abroad,
like arriving in a city with noidea where I was going, where I
was sleeping that night, andsomehow that seemed okay, and
now I'd be terrified to letmyself do that, much less my
(07:25):
children.
Rachel Gilman (07:27):
I know it's crazy how much things have changed.
Like I literally would walkaround with a map in front of my
face and my whole group wouldfollow me.
I like got, became thedesignated leader and I look
back at that now and I'm likethat is insane, but I was so
confident it didn't matter.
Joan Watson (07:43):
Yeah, I think it's interesting kind of to reflect
on the fact that technology insome ways has made pilgrimage
harder and that it's it's adistraction, right, like we can
still stay so connected evenwhen we're on pilgrimage and we
can.
You know, even Instagram canstill be a distraction when
you're on pilgrimage if you havea data plan right, but at the
same time it can if we use itwell, with Google Maps and maybe
(08:06):
Google Translate, it can helpus enter into the pilgrimage
differently because we don'thave to worry about some of the
details, right, we can reallyfocus on that spiritual side of
things.
It's just it's interesting tokind of reflect on what
technology has done or not donefor the spirit of the pilgrim,
right, because most of our lives, in most of church history, I
should say we didn't havetechnology to help us on
(08:28):
pilgrimage.
Yeah, absolutely I agree withthat, did you?
I guess I hate when people aska question like what was your
favorite part of Rome?
Because there's, there's somuch, but is there a church or a
saint in those four cities thatstands out to you that you may
(08:49):
be discovered for the first timeor rediscovered, or whether
it's a saint story or a church,or even you know, an unquote,
unquote like sacred place thatreally sticks out in those four
cities as a place of encounterfor you.
Rachel Gilman (09:03):
Yeah, I mean, I would say just first, in general
, I was amazed at how manyreligious artifacts, how many
saints, bodies, were buried inall the places we went.
And again, I like completelymissed that when I had gone the
first time, and so that initself was just profound to me.
With that I could.
(09:23):
Every church I went to whichwas only like a couple blocks
away from each other, I had asaint that I actually recognize,
like Mary, or or a piece like apiece of Jesus' cross over
something, or you know.
It was just a profound to me,how, how prevalent all of that
was, no matter where we were inthose cities.
But yeah, there's definitely afew things that stand out to me.
(09:46):
Number one was the, the holystairs, and when we went to that
we got extremely lucky becausethey had exposed them to the
original steps, were exposed, sonormally right there, covered,
to protect them so that they canbe present for, hopefully,
(10:08):
hundreds and hundreds of years.
But when we were there, I can'tremember if they were just
refurbishing or cleaning, Idon't remember, to be honest,
but but they told us they'relike, this is so rare that you
can go up these steps and theseare the exact ones, like your
knees are going to hit, theexact steps that Jesus walked up
to a walked up when he wasmeeting Pontius Pilate, and so
(10:29):
that moment was incrediblyprofound for me.
Number one I didn't even knowthese existed.
I didn't know these stepsexisted.
But then, number two, like inthe moment of kneeling, and I
decided to pray for oneintention that someone had given
me on each step as my way ofsacrificing for that person as I
(10:50):
went up them.
And yeah, it's just one ofthose moments where I think I
really connected the dots onsacrifice and praying in the
midst of sacrifice and pain forpeople and how that is connected
.
So it just really stands out tome to feel very lucky that I
had that experience and even Imean I got to do it twice and
(11:11):
went back for our free attentionfor what we did.
But just that first moment ofknowing these were the exact
steps they were even covered Igot to all the exact steps that
Jesus walked on.
Joan Watson (11:21):
That's incredible.
So those are for people whohaven't been to Rome.
They're actually right near St.
John Lateran, which is theCathedral of Rome.
People think of St.
Peter's as being the cathedral,but St.
John Lateran is actually theCathedral of Rome.
It's where the bishop's chair,the pope's chair, is, and so the
Holy Father actually lived atSt.
John Lateran longer in churchhistory, longer than he's lived
(11:44):
at St.
Peter's, and so he lived thereand the Holy Stairs actually
went up to his private chapel.
So the Holy Stairs are thosestairs, as Rachel said, that
Jesus would have walked up anddown as he went to Pilate to
stand trial, and they wererenovating them when you were
there.
That's incredible theyrenovated the entire chapel and
so you were one of the fewpeople that got to really be on
(12:07):
the actual stair.
So now, if you go up the stairs,you go up on the wood, which I
think even going up on the woodis a beautiful meditation on the
church history, because thewood is actually warped from all
the knees of the pilgrims, andto think of how many pilgrims
have gone before us and saints,like great saints, like St.
(12:28):
Therese, did the Holy Stairs,and so I'm sure, maybe, possibly
like St.
Francis of Assisi.
I don't know when they werecompletely open to the public,
but just reflecting on thepeople who've gone before us in
that wood, I was really worriedthey were going to put new wood.
When they put the wood back onI was like, oh no, they're going
to put new wood and that'sgoing to kind of lose the charm
(12:51):
and the comfort, because thetrick to the Holy Stairs is that
you want to get your knee inthat divot to do it and to find
your comfort spot.
But I thought it was.
That's such a beautifulapproach to the Holy Stairs.
What you did is praying forpeople on each stair and
approaching it, because you canapproach the Holy Stairs in lots
of different ways.
Some people do the rosary, somepeople do the Divine Mercy
(13:12):
Chaplet, but I love praying forsomeone in particular on each
stair.
That's really powerful and thesacrifice that comes with
pilgrimage are sometimesplentiful and sometimes there
are things that we seek outright like the Holy Stairs are
not easy to do.
But I've seen people of all agesand all backgrounds do the Holy
(13:34):
Stairs and it's really profound.
I mean, I've been on the HolyStairs with one of my pilgrims
once and I think he was probably85 or 86.
And I had no idea that he wasgoing to try to do it and he did
it and it was remarkablyprofound to see someone like
that sacrificing and enteringinto that prayer.
So the Holy Stairs, such apowerful experience.
(13:58):
I love how you also mentionedhow you don't even know what
you're going to find in thesechurches, and we talk on the
podcast about the open heart andthe open hands of a pilgrim,
but I think you've brought upthe importance of having open
eyes and taking time to reallybe in a church and pray in a
(14:19):
church and see what the churchhas that you might not even have
known it was there.
Can you think of a specificexample of when you were
surprised?
I guess the Holy Stairs, youwere surprised, but another time
where you were surprised tofind someone or something, yeah,
yeah, gosh, I think I hadseveral of those moments, but
there's two that really stayedout to me.
Rachel Gilman (14:39):
I one, gosh.
I cannot remember what churchis in Again, we went to so many
so maybe you can help me with itbut I just remember we walked
into the church and ourpilgrimage guide was just like
oh yeah, and there's the tablefrom the last supper up there.
But it was like an afterthoughtand I was just blown away by the
(14:59):
fact that was an afterthought,was like, oh yeah, that table is
right there.
And I just like I don't know, Iwas just shocked.
I was like, seriously, that'sthere.
And I just stood there like Ididn't stare again Because I
mean that's incredible.
But that just happened multipletimes.
So that definitely stayed outto me.
And then also we went intoanother church where there were
(15:25):
essentially like a back smallchapel where there were several
artifacts, but it's specificallyrelated to Jesus' crucifixion,
so like a piece of the crossnail, I think one or multiple of
the nails that were used in hiscrucifixion.
And it was just like one ofthose moments too.
It was like OK, go back there.
(15:46):
And then back there, here iswhat is there.
And I was like are you kiddingme?
Wait, what Are you kidding me?
And so, because the peopleguiding us have seen him so many
times, I think part of them islike, oh yeah, here it is,
they've experienced it.
But for someone who is sayingthis for the first time, like
just the casual nature of likeoh yeah, no biggie, here's some
(16:10):
really profound artifacts fromJesus' own life, and in fact,
like his death, and you get tolook at them up close, and so
those two moments stayed out tome the most.
Joan Watson (16:21):
And Rachel's now given us a good itinerary for
Rome, because you can do all ofthe things that she mentioned in
a morning, because you can dothe Holy Stairs, and then the
table of the Last Supper isright across the street in the
church of John Lateran, thecathedral of Rome, and then the
relics of the Passion are downthe street in St.
Helen's Church, called SantaCroce in Gerusalemme, the Holy
Cross of Jerusalem, and that'sdown the street.
And so you've just given us aperfect morning in Rome where we
(16:44):
can meditate on the Passion.
And the Santa Croce is anotherchurch that so many people miss.
It's, I mean, I think, it's oneof the seven Pilgrim Churches
of Rome that St.
Philip Neri used to do apilgrimage, and we'll have a
whole podcast episode about thePilgrim Churches of Rome.
But the Santa Croce, I think,is often missed on many
(17:05):
itineraries and it's so close toSt John Lateran, it's right
there, and it's often empty.
Like you walk in and there's noone even near the relics and
you're like this is the truecross of our Lord.
Hello, it's incredible.
And just that reminder, and Ithink this is the beauty of
relics, the reminder that allthese things really happened,
(17:28):
like you just kneel at the thorn, you can see one of the thorns,
the crown of thorns, and youjust think, wow, this isn't
something we just made up, thisisn't just a story and I know
that sounds ridiculous becausewe do this for a living, you and
I, telling people about thestory of Jesus Christ but we
have to have those tangiblereminders that this happened.
This happened in time, right,in history, in space.
(17:51):
God died for us and here is thethorn that pierced our Savior's
forehead.
Like it's incredible.
It's incredible.
Rachel Gilman (17:58):
Yeah, I, oh my gosh I completely agree with you
.
Yeah, it's funny to say I'mlike, oh yeah again, like this
really happened.
But I mean seeing the tangibleelements of his death, like
seeing things that literallywould have caused him pain and
like held him to the cross.
Joan Watson (18:15):
It just, it strikes you in a different way than
just talking about it, andthat's such the beauty of
pilgrimage is to have theseexperiences outside of our
normal everyday life, to thencome back home and say like this
is what I saw, this is what Iexperienced, and when we pray
the Stations of the Cross, to beable to picture the things
we've actually seen with our owneyes.
You know, did you get to seethe Holy Father when you were in
(18:38):
Rome, or was he, you know, likeout on vacation or something?
Rachel Gilman (18:42):
And I did.
We actually had a fantasticexperience, again.
Our our pilgrimage guide forthis particular pilgrimage had
done this exact like itineraryso many times, so he had like a
master plan for his audience onWednesday, and so we ended up
getting literally front rowseats to like a section, so that
(19:05):
when he drove by he was rightin front of us and I like I was
kind of speechless when ithappened because I just never
imagined we'd end up that close.
So that was such a beautifulmoment for myself.
Joan Watson (19:17):
I think every time I see the Holy Father, I'm I
hope I never get jaded by it andjust like, oh there he is.
You know, and I think withWorld Youth Day I was kind of
worried that I would be jadedbecause I'd seen him up close
and I had seen him, you know, indifferent settings and.
But I think one thing,especially for World Youth Day,
that helped was seeing otherpeople see him and seeing the
(19:39):
joy of those kids that wereseeing him for the first time
and like the people running tosee him, and it was just really
powerful to lead that group inthat way and to witness it
through their eyes.
That's what I love aboutleading pilgrimages is to like
put yourself, you know, likeyour tour leader.
I mean, how many times has hebeen to Rome?
A million, right.
But each time he goes he getsto see it through your eyes and
(20:03):
he gets to see it, which I thinkis a really powerful moment.
So we did see the Pope at WorldYouth Day.
So let's talk a little bit aboutWorld Youth Day.
And you know, Rachel, you had avery different experience for
World Youth Day than a pilgrim.
I love that you went to Rome asa pilgrim and you made like
that specific decision to go foryourself, because it's a very
(20:25):
different experience sometimesgoing when you're a leader, but
for World Youth Day you were aleader and a fantastic leader.
I will say publicly, really,really fantastic.
Thank you, thank you, you know,were you still able to
encounter God, even in adifferent type of pilgrimage,
when you're actually leading agroup?
Rachel Gilman (20:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean first of all, yes,
absolutely.
But I think it took deeperreflection and awareness to find
those moments.
I mean as a leader, first ofall I had gone into it.
I don't know, I guess I had bigexpectations for myself--n ot
fully, I think, understanding myrole as a group leader for our
(21:07):
group but I was like, oh yeah,I'm going to have this profound
experience, like God is going tocome to me and it's like full
of lightning, like this is whatWorld Youth Day is all about.
And I quickly learned, as aleader, like that wasn't going
to happen for me and so I had toaccept that, which was just
(21:28):
very difficult for me.
But I realized my role wasdifferent, right, and I was like
going on pilgrimage, out there,supporting pilgrims.
So, within the chaos of makingdecisions and supporting people,
I didn't get any of those bigmoments, but I had just like
looking back, I had suchprofound small moments like
(21:50):
where God came to me and it wasI, like I could have missed it,
absolutely.
And I just remember,specifically reflecting on the
final day we were there and Iwas like I'm going to have a fun
free day.
So essentially, our entire groupis scattered throughout Lisbon,
which for me it's very exciting, because then I got a day to
myself to explore and to havesome moments of quiet and peace.
(22:14):
And I was walking and I wassuper hungry.
I was like on a mission,finding lunch, I'm going to go.
And then I passed this churchand I just had this like major
tug on my heart to stop and butI was like no, no, no, I'm
hungry.
So, like I, the place thatwanted to go was a pretty far
walk and I literally walked pastthe church and I stopped
(22:36):
because I felt this like deepneed to like go into this church
.
So I was like I think I have tolisten.
So I walked in and nothingprofound.
I mean, first of all, it'sbeautiful.
I think every church in Lisbonis beautiful but there was
nothing happening.
There are a few people prayingand I just sat down and I had a
moment where I just was like God, I have no idea what you want
(23:01):
me to get from this experience.
Like I was looking forconnection with you and I don't
know where the heck I wassupposed to find that.
Like I'm exhausted, I'm tired,I've cried several times, like I
don't know what you wanted fromme from this and I just but I
had this moment where one of mybiggest intentions for myself on
(23:22):
the pilgrimage was I'm new tomy role.
So one of my things is I justprayed for confidence in myself,
in this new position and mycapabilities, and that God, like
, really did call me to this andI'm capable of doing this
ministry.
And I just sat there and I amasking these questions and then
I just have this moment where Iwas like, oh my gosh, like God
(23:45):
answered my prayer, like I didthis.
I led 180 people for two fullweeks through chaos and millions
of people, survived.
But also, like people had afantastic experience.
And I just had that profoundmoment where I was like, wow,
like I guess what I'm lookingfor I wasn't going to get, but I
(24:07):
think I got something so muchbetter, like, and then leaving
that church, I just thought,like I keep looking for God in
such big ways and all I had todo was stop in a quiet, empty
church and ask these questionsand God spoke to me and I
couldn't help but think like,wow, in this World Youth Day
(24:28):
experience, like, God came to methat way.
So in my regular life, like howmany times have I walked by
that quote unquote church, thatcall to like spend time with him
so he can speak to me, and I'veignored it because I'm busy,
I'm looking, I have things to do, and so it just really struck
me quite powerfully, to behonest, even though it's such a
(24:50):
simple moment.
And then I started, because ofexperts, started noticing the
way God was coming into my lifein such tiny, like interrupting
ways.
So, again, like in that moment,I was on my way to lunch, I was
like mission accomplished, I'mgoing to eat.
And then like that tug, likethat pull on my heart to stop,
(25:11):
even though I didn't want to,and but I said yes to it and I
mean, an amazing thing happenedfrom that.
And then, literally the next day, at the airport in Madrid again
, mind you, I'd been onovernight bus from Lisbon to
Madrid, didn't get much sleep,as you can imagine got to the
airport at like 5:30am and wehave this guide from Lisbon with
(25:34):
us and she it's probably 20,like very young, very
inexperienced, and we're in theairport.
She has no idea what she's doingand so I'm teaching her because
luckily I have an avatrabler.
That's easy for me.
But we just started talkingbecause of that and we're
(25:54):
waiting in line.
The check-in counters are open,yet we got there so early and
she started talking to me abouther faith and the fact that she
doesn't go to church anymorebecause of a bad experience she
had of people not accepting herand or even just like being
unkind and unwelcoming, and I inthe moment was like no, like
(26:20):
it's 5:30am, like two hours ofsleep, Like this is the last
thing I want to be doing.
But then I just again had thismoment where I was like I think
God is calling me to like listenlisten to her right now and to
like talk with her about this,and so we talked for like 30
minutes about this and it wasreally beautiful.
Like I ended up having momentsof like challenging her to think
(26:42):
about going back to Mass andletting her know like maybe
she's the person that someoneelse is looking for and so, even
if she's not finding what sheneeds, like maybe God's calling
you to go back, so that someonelike you never has that
experience again.
And she was like it just madeher think and I just was like I
(27:02):
never thought at like 5:30am Iwould be capable of this
conversation and so, like I,then I just realized like, wow,
I was like God, you really workthrough very normal day to day
life circumstances, andespecially when we don't want to
be most, don't want them tohappen, and so that's got me
(27:22):
reflecting so much.
Being back now, it's just likewhere are those tugs in my heart
, where those moments wheremaybe I'm crazy busy but like
someone needs me and like I canstop.
Even if I'm tired, even if I'vegot a meeting I got to get to
like I really believe in thatpower of God's power to do what
he needs us to do, so anythingreally profound, but in a
(27:44):
different way, so powerful, andit's such a good lesson for all
of us to take into our livesthat, you know, God often
doesn't work the way we expect.
Joan Watson (27:53):
Like you had, you had expectations of what he
might do or how he might act, orwhat world you say would be
like.
I agree, like I had thisexpectation, that World Youth
Day would be XYZ, and it wasvery different.
And just to not be frustratedby that, but to see that the
Lord's plan is actually evenbetter and that he, he, did want
to work in ways, even if theyweren't what we were, they
(28:14):
didn't look the way we wantedthem to look.
And then also that daily life.
I love reminding people that,like, the Lord gives us little
gifts in daily life, but if wedon't have the open eyes to see
them, we're going to miss them.
And he's constantly showeringus with gifts and opportunities,
but we want them to look bigand dramatic and they're often
very little and we end upmissing them.
(28:36):
And so to have those open eyes,as you know, you, you, I mean
it's, it's funny what you talkedabout, like making room for him
in the quiet.
We hear that, that story ofElijah right, that the God
wasn't in the thunder and Godwasn't in the wind and God
wasn't in the hurricane and Godwas in the small whispering
sound.
It's one thing to hear thatreading.
It's another thing toexperience it for yourself and
(28:57):
to realize, oh, I do need tomake room for him to work.
If I'm so busy and I'm alwaystalking, he can't work and he
can't do what he wants to do.
So thank you for sharing that.
That's a profound, I think, aprofound lesson to take away.
And thank you for speaking tothat woman, to that girl that
(29:18):
needed you, because you don'tknow how your words are now
gonna impact the rest of herlife too.
So that was beautiful.
As we finish, you've given us alot, I think, to take into our
own thoughts and to take intoour own quiet prayer with the
Lord that we all need.
But I wanna wrap up with HighLow Disco, which is a game we
kind of play at work where wetalk about a high point of
(29:41):
pilgrimage, a low point ofpilgrimage and then disco like
just a fun story.
And so can we do that with yourItaly trip?
Maybe you can tell us kind of ahigh point of your Italy trip,
a low point, and then just a funstory of something that
happened.
Rachel Gilman (29:57):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
I like to start with positive.
I'm positive person, so I'llstart there.
I yeah.
One thing that a high pointthat really stood out to me from
my Italy pilgrimage is when wein Assisi.
We visited the tomb of St.
(30:18):
Clare of Assisi and I hadchosen St.
Clare as my confirmation saintway back when, in seventh grade,
when I was 13.
And I don't know, it was such aprofound moment to say this is
a saint I chose because I readher story and liked the role
model she could be for myself.
(30:39):
But then to be in the presenceof this person, I chose and
realize, oh, she's real, likeshe did all this and she lived
here and here's more of herstory.
And being in that place was soprofound and such a connecting
point for me of like, again 13years old, did I really really
(30:59):
know why I was picking St.
Clare?
I don't know, something tuggedin my heart about it, but being
able to be there with her andpray and ask for her
intercession, right there.
Joan Watson (31:10):
I love that.
I love that St.
Clare is my confirmation sainttoo.
Yeah, isn't that crazy.
We didn't, yeah, and I agree,like I don't even know why I
chose.
I mean, she just kind of tuggedat my heart and they say some
saints pick us, you know.
And I think, yeah, but that'ssuch a beautiful, peaceful,
peaceful place in her monasteryand if you go to her basilica
(31:33):
she's buried in the crypt andshe's still behind the grill, so
you kneel at the grill becauseshe's still with her sisters and
so the sisters can come andlike, change the flowers at her
tomb and everything, and she'sstill in that enclosure.
And I just think that's soprofound that even now her body
remains.
Obviously she's in heaven, buther body remains there in that
cloister with her sisters.
I think it's so beautiful.
(31:53):
So, okay, a low point.
Rachel Gilman (31:57):
That is beautiful .
Low point.
You know this one's actuallyhard, which is good.
I'm happy that it's hard, but Ithink a low point for me is
that we ended up going withabout 90 people from our parish,
which is a large group, to goon pilgrimage.
Now it's been eclipsed by myreal youth day experience, but
(32:20):
as a parish group of like allages, so we had I mean anywhere
from teenagers to people intheir 80s on this from our
parish and so that just it wasreally difficult.
I think that the large age spanand just like the needs of
different people was, I think,frustrating for myself being a
(32:42):
younger person who's a littlemore bodily able, no little more
in shape, like I was like readyfor everything and so like to
have these moments where I hadto like stop and wait and like
be respectful, which again,totally understand that, and
like I should be doing that, butat the same time it was so it
(33:06):
was hard for me and then likealso it just sometimes created a
negative influence on the groupas a whole, because the I would
say it's a generalization, butI would say in general the older
age group of our group wereoften complaining about how much
walking we were doing or thefood or the hotel accommodations
(33:28):
, and so that just was hard tolike hear that all the time, and
I'm also someone who just wantsto see the good and everything
even when it's tough, so to likehave to listen to that a lot of
times was kind of more and youknow, group pilgrimages are so
often a reflection of our life,in that we are a member of this
church and the member of thisworld, where we have to put up
(33:49):
with people that we wouldn'thave chosen to put up with right
and or like we're on a journey.
Joan Watson (33:56):
we're on a big journey of life and there's lots
of personalities and lots ofneeds, and how can we go forward
joyfully and encourage othersto?
I think sometimes pilgrimagejust brings that right to the
forefront, right, this littlemicrocosm of life too.
And then a disco, somethingfunny.
Rachel Gilman (34:19):
A disco.
Yeah, so when we were in AssisiI think you might have to fact
check me on this, but I believewe got there like just after St.
Clare's feast day and so there,because of that, there is a
huge, like essentially hugecelebration for from one end of
(34:40):
the day for a week, but wedidn't know any.
We didn't know any of this.
So we get there and again, likefor us Assisi is like a breath
of fresh air.
If you've ever gone from Rometo Assisi, you'll understand
that like from the giant citymetropolitan area where it's go,
go, go to, like the beauty ofthe countryside in Assisi is
wonderful.
So, like we're tired, right,we've done a lot.
(35:04):
So I also went on thispilgrimage with my mom, so she
came with me, and so we'resharing a room in a CC and we're
like so excited because wefinally have a day to sleep in.
Like we're gonna travel toFlorence, but we're not leaving
until later in the morning, andso we're like, yes, finally.
And so we fall asleep the nightbefore we're about to leave, to
(35:25):
like 6 am, like all of thesebells start going off, and I
mean like every single bell inthe entire city is ringing and
it's dissonant 'cause they'renot all in the same note.
So it's like at 6 am and thenall of a sudden you're trumpets
and like in the corner, likeright outside of our hotel,
(35:47):
there's like a giant van of liketrumpeteers.
And we find out later like partof their celebration, like we
had no idea, and so I just satup in bed like it's just, it's
like an alarm, oh my gosh.
And so I sat up in bed andliterally just went.
Are you kidding me?
My mom was so confused I waslike I don't know what's
(36:11):
happening, but we just were, Ijust couldn't stop laughing.
So, like, of course, on apilgrimage, like the one day we
sleep in, we get woken up bythis giant, only in Europe, only
in Assisi, or they're trumpets.
And then we get, we get to, yeahwhat?
So we get to Florence and thenend up in Siena later that day
(36:33):
and our travels, and so again toour hotel and again like we're
going to go to bed and no joke.
That morning we wake up andthere's a parade going through
the streets at like 6 am andthere's like drummers and
there's like people yelling, andwe find out there just happens
(36:53):
to be there.
Joan Watson (36:54):
It was the Palio.
I bet they're getting closer.
Yes, the Siena Palio is alwayson the Assumption.
Yeah, Hilarious.
Rachel Gilman (37:02):
And so all the neighborhoods are parading
through their neighborhood andlike showing their pride and
their flags and their colors.
We had no idea.
So two mornings in a row we getwoken up by these loud noises
like music, and I was just likeyou know what?
I'm here for this.
Joan Watson (37:19):
That actually has to be one of the best times to
go to those cities because theFeast of St.
Clare, August 11th, the Paliois a huge horse race and a huge
deal in Siena, and so you choselike the best time, but you're
also wanting to sleep in andyou're like what the heck is
happening.
So that's hilarious, that'sreally fun.
Well, thank you for sharingthis, rachel, thanks for sharing
(37:40):
this time, thank you forhelping us remember that we have
to have open eyes, whether thatmeans literally looking around
us to see what we might stumbleupon, or whether it's seeing
what the Lord wants to do in theunexpected.
And it was great.
It was great to talk to youagain.
So thanks, Rachel.
Rachel Gilman (37:56):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
This has been so fun.
Joan Watson (38:00):
Thanks, listeners, for listening and, as always, we
bring you stories, we bring youtravel tips, we bring you all
sorts of things as we navigate,both actual pilgrimages but also
just the daily pilgrimage oflife that we're all on.
So thanks for listening, tellyour friends about us and until
next time, god bless.
Welcome to In Via the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all "in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, Joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, Rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
Welcome back everybody to InVia, the podcast where we are
navigating the pilgrimage ofdaily life.
And today to talk aboutpilgrimage, to talk about daily
(00:42):
life, is my friend.
I think I'm allowed to call youmy friend, my friend Rachel
Gilman, the Director of YouthMinistry for the Archdiocese of
Indianapolis.
Hello, Rachel.
Rachel Gilman (00:54):
Hi, yes, you can definitely call me a friend,
Joan.
We're there.
Joan Watson (00:58):
We've gone through battle together and we've
survived and now we're friends.
So, Rachel, I want to tell ouraudience how I first met you.
I first met Rachel at theO'Hare airport as she got off a
bus.
It seems very long ago, butRachel was the leader for
Archindy's World Youth Day trip,and so Rachel and I together
(01:22):
led 190 odd people and 190,right I?
Rachel Gilman (01:26):
think 182 or something 182.
Joan Watson (01:29):
Okay, I realize it sounded like I said that all
those people were odd, andthat's not what I meant.
Not 190 odd people, what, but190-ish, so 180-ish people
through Lisbon, and it waswonderful, and so Rachel and I
bonded over that.
So today, I want to start bysharing with our audience who
(01:52):
Rachel is, because I know alittle bit about Rachel.
But, Rachel, if you coulddescribe yourself in three
sentences, only three sentences,what would those sentences be?
Rachel Gilman (02:02):
Yeah, okay, sentence one I would say that I
love to laugh, and you probablyhear this throughout the podcast
.
I'm a major giggler, but I justfind joy in life, like
everywhere, so laughter is myexpression of that.
Two, I like to call myself afun, competitive person.
(02:28):
So I am actuallyover-competitive in like
everything I do, but I alwaystell myself there's a threshold,
so I have to have fun and makesure other people are having fun
.
But if you were to ask myclosest friends, they'd be like
oh yeah, she's super competitive.
So I try to hide it but it'skind of hard to.
And then number three I've beendescribed as like already
(02:56):
living a fantastic retiredwoman's life because I love to
do puzzles and paint by numbersand read, and so my friends
would like to make fun of mebecause I'll sit on my couch and
do a puzzle and watch TV andthey're like you're set, you're
ready to go.
Joan Watson (03:12):
I love it.
I love it.
I can see like I didn't evenknow those things about you
before we went to World YouthDay and I can see why we got
along so well.
I love that that sounds like anideal night, like why not stay
home and do a puzzle, and likethat sounds lovely.
But also your gift of laughteris such a joy and such a gift
(03:37):
for others and so I want toaffirm you in that I think
that's a gift from God, that itreally, I think, got us through
a lot and I think it gets youlike I think it gets.
I think approaching life thatway is just the better way to
approach life, like just withjoy, and even when stuff is
frustrating, and even when stuffis hard, like okay, like the
(03:59):
Lord's got it, we'll get throughit, like we'll survive.
So that was a gift to me.
So thank you for being alaugher, oh thank you, that's
sweet, yeah, I agree though.
So, Rachel, you went to WorldYouth Day, but you've been on
pilgrimage even before that, sowould you just like tell me a
little bit about maybe yourfirst pilgrimage, or your
(04:20):
favorite pilgrimage, or apilgrimage that stands out to
you?
Rachel Gilman (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, I my very first pilgrimage.
I went on, I believe, a summerof 2019.
And we went to Italy with myparish.
I was working there as a youthminister at the time, but I
decided to go for myself, so Ipaid the money.
I wanted it to be fully apilgrimage experience, even
(04:45):
though I was technically onstaff, and decided to go, and so
we went to Rome, and then wewent to Assisi, and then
Florence and then Siena.
So we did a pretty good tour ofItaly.
I think end of being about 10days long in total, but just
phenomenal experience, beautiful, and this was your first time.
Joan Watson (05:05):
this was your first time in Italy, then.
Rachel Gilman (05:09):
No, actually that was my second time.
The first time I went I wasstudying abroad in college, so I
very much looked at traveldifferently.
So I had been to all thoseplaces except at Assisi and
Siena, but literally only wentfor like two days in a massive
like travel backpack aroundEurope experience.
(05:30):
So it was really, really fun togo back in a prayerful way,
because I hadn't reallyapproached it that way.
I was trying to see the majorsites the first time and just be
on vacation and have fun as a21 year old.
So, very different from comingback in my late 20s on a
pilgrimage.
Joan Watson (05:49):
Yes, I mean you were in a different place,
spiritually, I'm sure,intellectually, maturity wise.
And then did you, would you saylike, did you prepare in any
different way when you went onpilgrimage, versus going just
kind of as a tourist?
Rachel Gilman (06:08):
Yeah, absolutely yes.
I was a lot more intentionaljust about my preparation when
it was a pilgrimage.
I mean I would collect prayerintentions from friends and
family to bring with me.
I also just tried to read moreabout the saints that I would
encounter.
So I was trying to get some ofthe history as well and prepare
(06:32):
myself for such a deeperconnection to the experiences I
was going to have.
Where as the first time--i twas very much just like what
train am I getting on?
And like do I have a map?
Because again, this is prettysmart phone time.
So I like had paper maps up thewazoo.
So like it was more just likehow do I get from point A to
(06:52):
point B and what are my topthree things I want to do?
The pilgrimage was way morespiritual, spiritually like at
the beginning of my preparation.
Joan Watson (07:02):
Yeah, I remember talking to you when we were over
there about how, like, how didour parents let us go before
smartphones?
We didn't know what we didn'thave, obviously.
But I mean, I remember, likewhen we and I studied abroad,
like arriving in a city with noidea where I was going, where I
was sleeping that night, andsomehow that seemed okay, and
now I'd be terrified to letmyself do that, much less my
(07:25):
children.
Rachel Gilman (07:27):
I know it's crazy how much things have changed.
Like I literally would walkaround with a map in front of my
face and my whole group wouldfollow me.
I like got, became thedesignated leader and I look
back at that now and I'm likethat is insane, but I was so
confident it didn't matter.
Joan Watson (07:43):
Yeah, I think it's interesting kind of to reflect
on the fact that technology insome ways has made pilgrimage
harder and that it's it's adistraction, right, like we can
still stay so connected evenwhen we're on pilgrimage and we
can.
You know, even Instagram canstill be a distraction when
you're on pilgrimage if you havea data plan right, but at the
same time it can if we use itwell, with Google Maps and maybe
(08:06):
Google Translate, it can helpus enter into the pilgrimage
differently because we don'thave to worry about some of the
details, right, we can reallyfocus on that spiritual side of
things.
It's just it's interesting tokind of reflect on what
technology has done or not donefor the spirit of the pilgrim,
right, because most of our lives, in most of church history, I
should say we didn't havetechnology to help us on
(08:28):
pilgrimage.
Yeah, absolutely I agree withthat, did you?
I guess I hate when people aska question like what was your
favorite part of Rome?
Because there's, there's somuch, but is there a church or a
saint in those four cities thatstands out to you that you may
(08:49):
be discovered for the first timeor rediscovered, or whether
it's a saint story or a church,or even you know, an unquote,
unquote like sacred place thatreally sticks out in those four
cities as a place of encounterfor you.
Rachel Gilman (09:03):
Yeah, I mean, I would say just first, in general
, I was amazed at how manyreligious artifacts, how many
saints, bodies, were buried inall the places we went.
And again, I like completelymissed that when I had gone the
first time, and so that initself was just profound to me.
With that I could.
(09:23):
Every church I went to whichwas only like a couple blocks
away from each other, I had asaint that I actually recognize,
like Mary, or or a piece like apiece of Jesus' cross over
something, or you know.
It was just a profound to me,how, how prevalent all of that
was, no matter where we were inthose cities.
But yeah, there's definitely afew things that stand out to me.
(09:46):
Number one was the, the holystairs, and when we went to that
we got extremely lucky becausethey had exposed them to the
original steps, were exposed, sonormally right there, covered,
to protect them so that they canbe present for, hopefully,
(10:08):
hundreds and hundreds of years.
But when we were there, I can'tremember if they were just
refurbishing or cleaning, Idon't remember, to be honest,
but but they told us they'relike, this is so rare that you
can go up these steps and theseare the exact ones, like your
knees are going to hit, theexact steps that Jesus walked up
to a walked up when he wasmeeting Pontius Pilate, and so
(10:29):
that moment was incrediblyprofound for me.
Number one I didn't even knowthese existed.
I didn't know these stepsexisted.
But then, number two, like inthe moment of kneeling, and I
decided to pray for oneintention that someone had given
me on each step as my way ofsacrificing for that person as I
(10:50):
went up them.
And yeah, it's just one ofthose moments where I think I
really connected the dots onsacrifice and praying in the
midst of sacrifice and pain forpeople and how that is connected
.
So it just really stands out tome to feel very lucky that I
had that experience and even Imean I got to do it twice and
(11:11):
went back for our free attentionfor what we did.
But just that first moment ofknowing these were the exact
steps they were even covered Igot to all the exact steps that
Jesus walked on.
Joan Watson (11:21):
That's incredible.
So those are for people whohaven't been to Rome.
They're actually right near St.
John Lateran, which is theCathedral of Rome.
People think of St.
Peter's as being the cathedral,but St.
John Lateran is actually theCathedral of Rome.
It's where the bishop's chair,the pope's chair, is, and so the
Holy Father actually lived atSt.
John Lateran longer in churchhistory, longer than he's lived
(11:44):
at St.
Peter's, and so he lived thereand the Holy Stairs actually
went up to his private chapel.
So the Holy Stairs are thosestairs, as Rachel said, that
Jesus would have walked up anddown as he went to Pilate to
stand trial, and they wererenovating them when you were
there.
That's incredible theyrenovated the entire chapel and
so you were one of the fewpeople that got to really be on
(12:07):
the actual stair.
So now, if you go up the stairs,you go up on the wood, which I
think even going up on the woodis a beautiful meditation on the
church history, because thewood is actually warped from all
the knees of the pilgrims, andto think of how many pilgrims
have gone before us and saints,like great saints, like St.
(12:28):
Therese, did the Holy Stairs,and so I'm sure, maybe, possibly
like St.
Francis of Assisi.
I don't know when they werecompletely open to the public,
but just reflecting on thepeople who've gone before us in
that wood, I was really worriedthey were going to put new wood.
When they put the wood back onI was like, oh no, they're going
to put new wood and that'sgoing to kind of lose the charm
(12:51):
and the comfort, because thetrick to the Holy Stairs is that
you want to get your knee inthat divot to do it and to find
your comfort spot.
But I thought it was.
That's such a beautifulapproach to the Holy Stairs.
What you did is praying forpeople on each stair and
approaching it, because you canapproach the Holy Stairs in lots
of different ways.
Some people do the rosary, somepeople do the Divine Mercy
(13:12):
Chaplet, but I love praying forsomeone in particular on each
stair.
That's really powerful and thesacrifice that comes with
pilgrimage are sometimesplentiful and sometimes there
are things that we seek outright like the Holy Stairs are
not easy to do.
But I've seen people of all agesand all backgrounds do the Holy
(13:34):
Stairs and it's really profound.
I mean, I've been on the HolyStairs with one of my pilgrims
once and I think he was probably85 or 86.
And I had no idea that he wasgoing to try to do it and he did
it and it was remarkablyprofound to see someone like
that sacrificing and enteringinto that prayer.
So the Holy Stairs, such apowerful experience.
(13:58):
I love how you also mentionedhow you don't even know what
you're going to find in thesechurches, and we talk on the
podcast about the open heart andthe open hands of a pilgrim,
but I think you've brought upthe importance of having open
eyes and taking time to reallybe in a church and pray in a
(14:19):
church and see what the churchhas that you might not even have
known it was there.
Can you think of a specificexample of when you were
surprised?
I guess the Holy Stairs, youwere surprised, but another time
where you were surprised tofind someone or something, yeah,
yeah, gosh, I think I hadseveral of those moments, but
there's two that really stayedout to me.
Rachel Gilman (14:39):
I one, gosh.
I cannot remember what churchis in Again, we went to so many
so maybe you can help me with itbut I just remember we walked
into the church and ourpilgrimage guide was just like
oh yeah, and there's the tablefrom the last supper up there.
But it was like an afterthoughtand I was just blown away by the
(14:59):
fact that was an afterthought,was like, oh yeah, that table is
right there.
And I just like I don't know, Iwas just shocked.
I was like, seriously, that'sthere.
And I just stood there like Ididn't stare again Because I
mean that's incredible.
But that just happened multipletimes.
So that definitely stayed outto me.
And then also we went intoanother church where there were
(15:25):
essentially like a back smallchapel where there were several
artifacts, but it's specificallyrelated to Jesus' crucifixion,
so like a piece of the crossnail, I think one or multiple of
the nails that were used in hiscrucifixion.
And it was just like one ofthose moments too.
It was like OK, go back there.
(15:46):
And then back there, here iswhat is there.
And I was like are you kiddingme?
Wait, what Are you kidding me?
And so, because the peopleguiding us have seen him so many
times, I think part of them islike, oh yeah, here it is,
they've experienced it.
But for someone who is sayingthis for the first time, like
just the casual nature of likeoh yeah, no biggie, here's some
(16:10):
really profound artifacts fromJesus' own life, and in fact,
like his death, and you get tolook at them up close, and so
those two moments stayed out tome the most.
Joan Watson (16:21):
And Rachel's now given us a good itinerary for
Rome, because you can do all ofthe things that she mentioned in
a morning, because you can dothe Holy Stairs, and then the
table of the Last Supper isright across the street in the
church of John Lateran, thecathedral of Rome, and then the
relics of the Passion are downthe street in St.
Helen's Church, called SantaCroce in Gerusalemme, the Holy
Cross of Jerusalem, and that'sdown the street.
And so you've just given us aperfect morning in Rome where we
(16:44):
can meditate on the Passion.
And the Santa Croce is anotherchurch that so many people miss.
It's, I mean, I think, it's oneof the seven Pilgrim Churches
of Rome that St.
Philip Neri used to do apilgrimage, and we'll have a
whole podcast episode about thePilgrim Churches of Rome.
But the Santa Croce, I think,is often missed on many
(17:05):
itineraries and it's so close toSt John Lateran, it's right
there, and it's often empty.
Like you walk in and there's noone even near the relics and
you're like this is the truecross of our Lord.
Hello, it's incredible.
And just that reminder, and Ithink this is the beauty of
relics, the reminder that allthese things really happened,
(17:28):
like you just kneel at the thorn, you can see one of the thorns,
the crown of thorns, and youjust think, wow, this isn't
something we just made up, thisisn't just a story and I know
that sounds ridiculous becausewe do this for a living, you and
I, telling people about thestory of Jesus Christ but we
have to have those tangiblereminders that this happened.
This happened in time, right,in history, in space.
(17:51):
God died for us and here is thethorn that pierced our Savior's
forehead.
Like it's incredible.
It's incredible.
Rachel Gilman (17:58):
Yeah, I, oh my gosh I completely agree with you
.
Yeah, it's funny to say I'mlike, oh yeah again, like this
really happened.
But I mean seeing the tangibleelements of his death, like
seeing things that literallywould have caused him pain and
like held him to the cross.
Joan Watson (18:15):
It just, it strikes you in a different way than
just talking about it, andthat's such the beauty of
pilgrimage is to have theseexperiences outside of our
normal everyday life, to thencome back home and say like this
is what I saw, this is what Iexperienced, and when we pray
the Stations of the Cross, to beable to picture the things
we've actually seen with our owneyes.
You know, did you get to seethe Holy Father when you were in
(18:38):
Rome, or was he, you know, likeout on vacation or something?
Rachel Gilman (18:42):
And I did.
We actually had a fantasticexperience, again.
Our our pilgrimage guide forthis particular pilgrimage had
done this exact like itineraryso many times, so he had like a
master plan for his audience onWednesday, and so we ended up
getting literally front rowseats to like a section, so that
(19:05):
when he drove by he was rightin front of us and I like I was
kind of speechless when ithappened because I just never
imagined we'd end up that close.
So that was such a beautifulmoment for myself.
Joan Watson (19:17):
I think every time I see the Holy Father, I'm I
hope I never get jaded by it andjust like, oh there he is.
You know, and I think withWorld Youth Day I was kind of
worried that I would be jadedbecause I'd seen him up close
and I had seen him, you know, indifferent settings and.
But I think one thing,especially for World Youth Day,
that helped was seeing otherpeople see him and seeing the
(19:39):
joy of those kids that wereseeing him for the first time
and like the people running tosee him, and it was just really
powerful to lead that group inthat way and to witness it
through their eyes.
That's what I love aboutleading pilgrimages is to like
put yourself, you know, likeyour tour leader.
I mean, how many times has hebeen to Rome?
A million, right.
But each time he goes he getsto see it through your eyes and
(20:03):
he gets to see it, which I thinkis a really powerful moment.
So we did see the Pope at WorldYouth Day.
So let's talk a little bit aboutWorld Youth Day.
And you know, Rachel, you had avery different experience for
World Youth Day than a pilgrim.
I love that you went to Rome asa pilgrim and you made like
that specific decision to go foryourself, because it's a very
(20:25):
different experience sometimesgoing when you're a leader, but
for World Youth Day you were aleader and a fantastic leader.
I will say publicly, really,really fantastic.
Thank you, thank you, you know,were you still able to
encounter God, even in adifferent type of pilgrimage,
when you're actually leading agroup?
Rachel Gilman (20:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean first of all, yes,
absolutely.
But I think it took deeperreflection and awareness to find
those moments.
I mean as a leader, first ofall I had gone into it.
I don't know, I guess I had bigexpectations for myself--n ot
fully, I think, understanding myrole as a group leader for our
(21:07):
group but I was like, oh yeah,I'm going to have this profound
experience, like God is going tocome to me and it's like full
of lightning, like this is whatWorld Youth Day is all about.
And I quickly learned, as aleader, like that wasn't going
to happen for me and so I had toaccept that, which was just
(21:28):
very difficult for me.
But I realized my role wasdifferent, right, and I was like
going on pilgrimage, out there,supporting pilgrims.
So, within the chaos of makingdecisions and supporting people,
I didn't get any of those bigmoments, but I had just like
looking back, I had suchprofound small moments like
(21:50):
where God came to me and it wasI, like I could have missed it,
absolutely.
And I just remember,specifically reflecting on the
final day we were there and Iwas like I'm going to have a fun
free day.
So essentially, our entire groupis scattered throughout Lisbon,
which for me it's very exciting, because then I got a day to
myself to explore and to havesome moments of quiet and peace.
(22:14):
And I was walking and I wassuper hungry.
I was like on a mission,finding lunch, I'm going to go.
And then I passed this churchand I just had this like major
tug on my heart to stop and butI was like no, no, no, I'm
hungry.
So, like I, the place thatwanted to go was a pretty far
walk and I literally walked pastthe church and I stopped
(22:36):
because I felt this like deepneed to like go into this church
.
So I was like I think I have tolisten.
So I walked in and nothingprofound.
I mean, first of all, it'sbeautiful.
I think every church in Lisbonis beautiful but there was
nothing happening.
There are a few people prayingand I just sat down and I had a
moment where I just was like God, I have no idea what you want
(23:01):
me to get from this experience.
Like I was looking forconnection with you and I don't
know where the heck I wassupposed to find that.
Like I'm exhausted, I'm tired,I've cried several times, like I
don't know what you wanted fromme from this and I just but I
had this moment where one of mybiggest intentions for myself on
(23:22):
the pilgrimage was I'm new tomy role.
So one of my things is I justprayed for confidence in myself,
in this new position and mycapabilities, and that God, like
, really did call me to this andI'm capable of doing this
ministry.
And I just sat there and I amasking these questions and then
I just have this moment where Iwas like, oh my gosh, like God
(23:45):
answered my prayer, like I didthis.
I led 180 people for two fullweeks through chaos and millions
of people, survived.
But also, like people had afantastic experience.
And I just had that profoundmoment where I was like, wow,
like I guess what I'm lookingfor I wasn't going to get, but I
(24:07):
think I got something so muchbetter, like, and then leaving
that church, I just thought,like I keep looking for God in
such big ways and all I had todo was stop in a quiet, empty
church and ask these questionsand God spoke to me and I
couldn't help but think like,wow, in this World Youth Day
(24:28):
experience, like, God came to methat way.
So in my regular life, like howmany times have I walked by
that quote unquote church, thatcall to like spend time with him
so he can speak to me, and I'veignored it because I'm busy,
I'm looking, I have things to do, and so it just really struck
me quite powerfully, to behonest, even though it's such a
(24:50):
simple moment.
And then I started, because ofexperts, started noticing the
way God was coming into my lifein such tiny, like interrupting
ways.
So, again, like in that moment,I was on my way to lunch, I was
like mission accomplished, I'mgoing to eat.
And then like that tug, likethat pull on my heart to stop,
(25:11):
even though I didn't want to,and but I said yes to it and I
mean, an amazing thing happenedfrom that.
And then, literally the next day, at the airport in Madrid again
, mind you, I'd been onovernight bus from Lisbon to
Madrid, didn't get much sleep,as you can imagine got to the
airport at like 5:30am and wehave this guide from Lisbon with
(25:34):
us and she it's probably 20,like very young, very
inexperienced, and we're in theairport.
She has no idea what she's doingand so I'm teaching her because
luckily I have an avatrabler.
That's easy for me.
But we just started talkingbecause of that and we're
(25:54):
waiting in line.
The check-in counters are open,yet we got there so early and
she started talking to me abouther faith and the fact that she
doesn't go to church anymorebecause of a bad experience she
had of people not accepting herand or even just like being
unkind and unwelcoming, and I inthe moment was like no, like
(26:20):
it's 5:30am, like two hours ofsleep, Like this is the last
thing I want to be doing.
But then I just again had thismoment where I was like I think
God is calling me to like listenlisten to her right now and to
like talk with her about this,and so we talked for like 30
minutes about this and it wasreally beautiful.
Like I ended up having momentsof like challenging her to think
(26:42):
about going back to Mass andletting her know like maybe
she's the person that someoneelse is looking for and so, even
if she's not finding what sheneeds, like maybe God's calling
you to go back, so that someonelike you never has that
experience again.
And she was like it just madeher think and I just was like I
(27:02):
never thought at like 5:30am Iwould be capable of this
conversation and so, like I,then I just realized like, wow,
I was like God, you really workthrough very normal day to day
life circumstances, andespecially when we don't want to
be most, don't want them tohappen, and so that's got me
(27:22):
reflecting so much.
Being back now, it's just likewhere are those tugs in my heart
, where those moments wheremaybe I'm crazy busy but like
someone needs me and like I canstop.
Even if I'm tired, even if I'vegot a meeting I got to get to
like I really believe in thatpower of God's power to do what
he needs us to do, so anythingreally profound, but in a
(27:44):
different way, so powerful, andit's such a good lesson for all
of us to take into our livesthat, you know, God often
doesn't work the way we expect.
Joan Watson (27:53):
Like you had, you had expectations of what he
might do or how he might act, orwhat world you say would be
like.
I agree, like I had thisexpectation, that World Youth
Day would be XYZ, and it wasvery different.
And just to not be frustratedby that, but to see that the
Lord's plan is actually evenbetter and that he, he, did want
to work in ways, even if theyweren't what we were, they
(28:14):
didn't look the way we wantedthem to look.
And then also that daily life.
I love reminding people that,like, the Lord gives us little
gifts in daily life, but if wedon't have the open eyes to see
them, we're going to miss them.
And he's constantly showeringus with gifts and opportunities,
but we want them to look bigand dramatic and they're often
very little and we end upmissing them.
(28:36):
And so to have those open eyes,as you know, you, you, I mean
it's, it's funny what you talkedabout, like making room for him
in the quiet.
We hear that, that story ofElijah right, that the God
wasn't in the thunder and Godwasn't in the wind and God
wasn't in the hurricane and Godwas in the small whispering
sound.
It's one thing to hear thatreading.
It's another thing toexperience it for yourself and
(28:57):
to realize, oh, I do need tomake room for him to work.
If I'm so busy and I'm alwaystalking, he can't work and he
can't do what he wants to do.
So thank you for sharing that.
That's a profound, I think, aprofound lesson to take away.
And thank you for speaking tothat woman, to that girl that
(29:18):
needed you, because you don'tknow how your words are now
gonna impact the rest of herlife too.
So that was beautiful.
As we finish, you've given us alot, I think, to take into our
own thoughts and to take intoour own quiet prayer with the
Lord that we all need.
But I wanna wrap up with HighLow Disco, which is a game we
kind of play at work where wetalk about a high point of
(29:41):
pilgrimage, a low point ofpilgrimage and then disco like
just a fun story.
And so can we do that with yourItaly trip?
Maybe you can tell us kind of ahigh point of your Italy trip,
a low point, and then just a funstory of something that
happened.
Rachel Gilman (29:57):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
I like to start with positive.
I'm positive person, so I'llstart there.
I yeah.
One thing that a high pointthat really stood out to me from
my Italy pilgrimage is when wein Assisi.
We visited the tomb of St.
(30:18):
Clare of Assisi and I hadchosen St.
Clare as my confirmation saintway back when, in seventh grade,
when I was 13.
And I don't know, it was such aprofound moment to say this is
a saint I chose because I readher story and liked the role
model she could be for myself.
(30:39):
But then to be in the presenceof this person, I chose and
realize, oh, she's real, likeshe did all this and she lived
here and here's more of herstory.
And being in that place was soprofound and such a connecting
point for me of like, again 13years old, did I really really
(30:59):
know why I was picking St.
Clare?
I don't know, something tuggedin my heart about it, but being
able to be there with her andpray and ask for her
intercession, right there.
Joan Watson (31:10):
I love that.
I love that St.
Clare is my confirmation sainttoo.
Yeah, isn't that crazy.
We didn't, yeah, and I agree,like I don't even know why I
chose.
I mean, she just kind of tuggedat my heart and they say some
saints pick us, you know.
And I think, yeah, but that'ssuch a beautiful, peaceful,
peaceful place in her monasteryand if you go to her basilica
(31:33):
she's buried in the crypt andshe's still behind the grill, so
you kneel at the grill becauseshe's still with her sisters and
so the sisters can come andlike, change the flowers at her
tomb and everything, and she'sstill in that enclosure.
And I just think that's soprofound that even now her body
remains.
Obviously she's in heaven, buther body remains there in that
cloister with her sisters.
I think it's so beautiful.
(31:53):
So, okay, a low point.
Rachel Gilman (31:57):
That is beautiful .
Low point.
You know this one's actuallyhard, which is good.
I'm happy that it's hard, but Ithink a low point for me is
that we ended up going withabout 90 people from our parish,
which is a large group, to goon pilgrimage.
Now it's been eclipsed by myreal youth day experience, but
(32:20):
as a parish group of like allages, so we had I mean anywhere
from teenagers to people intheir 80s on this from our
parish and so that just it wasreally difficult.
I think that the large age spanand just like the needs of
different people was, I think,frustrating for myself being a
(32:42):
younger person who's a littlemore bodily able, no little more
in shape, like I was like readyfor everything and so like to
have these moments where I hadto like stop and wait and like
be respectful, which again,totally understand that, and
like I should be doing that, butat the same time it was so it
(33:06):
was hard for me and then likealso it just sometimes created a
negative influence on the groupas a whole, because the I would
say it's a generalization, butI would say in general the older
age group of our group wereoften complaining about how much
walking we were doing or thefood or the hotel accommodations
(33:28):
, and so that just was hard tolike hear that all the time, and
I'm also someone who just wantsto see the good and everything
even when it's tough, so to likehave to listen to that a lot of
times was kind of more and youknow, group pilgrimages are so
often a reflection of our life,in that we are a member of this
church and the member of thisworld, where we have to put up
(33:49):
with people that we wouldn'thave chosen to put up with right
and or like we're on a journey.
Joan Watson (33:56):
we're on a big journey of life and there's lots
of personalities and lots ofneeds, and how can we go forward
joyfully and encourage othersto?
I think sometimes pilgrimagejust brings that right to the
forefront, right, this littlemicrocosm of life too.
And then a disco, somethingfunny.
Rachel Gilman (34:19):
A disco.
Yeah, so when we were in AssisiI think you might have to fact
check me on this, but I believewe got there like just after St.
Clare's feast day and so there,because of that, there is a
huge, like essentially hugecelebration for from one end of
(34:40):
the day for a week, but wedidn't know any.
We didn't know any of this.
So we get there and again, likefor us Assisi is like a breath
of fresh air.
If you've ever gone from Rometo Assisi, you'll understand
that like from the giant citymetropolitan area where it's go,
go, go to, like the beauty ofthe countryside in Assisi is
wonderful.
So, like we're tired, right,we've done a lot.
(35:04):
So I also went on thispilgrimage with my mom, so she
came with me, and so we'resharing a room in a CC and we're
like so excited because wefinally have a day to sleep in.
Like we're gonna travel toFlorence, but we're not leaving
until later in the morning, andso we're like, yes, finally.
And so we fall asleep the nightbefore we're about to leave, to
(35:25):
like 6 am, like all of thesebells start going off, and I
mean like every single bell inthe entire city is ringing and
it's dissonant 'cause they'renot all in the same note.
So it's like at 6 am and thenall of a sudden you're trumpets
and like in the corner, likeright outside of our hotel,
(35:47):
there's like a giant van of liketrumpeteers.
And we find out later like partof their celebration, like we
had no idea, and so I just satup in bed like it's just, it's
like an alarm, oh my gosh.
And so I sat up in bed andliterally just went.
Are you kidding me?
My mom was so confused I waslike I don't know what's
(36:11):
happening, but we just were, Ijust couldn't stop laughing.
So, like, of course, on apilgrimage, like the one day we
sleep in, we get woken up bythis giant, only in Europe, only
in Assisi, or they're trumpets.
And then we get, we get to, yeahwhat?
So we get to Florence and thenend up in Siena later that day
(36:33):
and our travels, and so again toour hotel and again like we're
going to go to bed and no joke.
That morning we wake up andthere's a parade going through
the streets at like 6 am andthere's like drummers and
there's like people yelling, andwe find out there just happens
(36:53):
to be there.
Joan Watson (36:54):
It was the Palio.
I bet they're getting closer.
Yes, the Siena Palio is alwayson the Assumption.
Yeah, Hilarious.
Rachel Gilman (37:02):
And so all the neighborhoods are parading
through their neighborhood andlike showing their pride and
their flags and their colors.
We had no idea.
So two mornings in a row we getwoken up by these loud noises
like music, and I was just likeyou know what?
I'm here for this.
Joan Watson (37:19):
That actually has to be one of the best times to
go to those cities because theFeast of St.
Clare, August 11th, the Paliois a huge horse race and a huge
deal in Siena, and so you choselike the best time, but you're
also wanting to sleep in andyou're like what the heck is
happening.
So that's hilarious, that'sreally fun.
Well, thank you for sharingthis, rachel, thanks for sharing
(37:40):
this time, thank you forhelping us remember that we have
to have open eyes, whether thatmeans literally looking around
us to see what we might stumbleupon, or whether it's seeing
what the Lord wants to do in theunexpected.
And it was great.
It was great to talk to youagain.
So thanks, Rachel.
Rachel Gilman (37:56):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
This has been so fun.
Joan Watson (38:00):
Thanks, listeners, for listening and, as always, we
bring you stories, we bring youtravel tips, we bring you all
sorts of things as we navigate,both actual pilgrimages but also
just the daily pilgrimage oflife that we're all on.
So thanks for listening, tellyour friends about us and until
next time, god bless.
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